Manitoba Hansard — 2 December 1992 (Sitting 5, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-5

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 5 ·1:30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 2,1992 ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by llle Otrlce of llle a.-s Prlnlet; Province of Manlloba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constit uencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIUI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GIUESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton , Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McAL PINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHAR D, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virde n Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Mimedosa Cresce ntwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossm ere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Rin Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

149 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, December 2, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr . Leonard Evan s (Brandon East): Mr. Speak er, I beg to present the petition of Barbara Sellman, Jodi Cranswick, Richard Vawhoue and others, requesting the gove rnment of Manitoba consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon � General Hospit al. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker , I beg to present the petition of George Tessier, Deborah Carr, Angela Borysowich and others, urging the governmen t of Manitoba to pass the regulations to restrict the stubble burning in the prov ince of Manitoba. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable memb er for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylyc ia-leis). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ? ' To the legislature of the pro vince of Manitoba WHERE AS each year smok e from stubble burning descends upon the province of Manitoba; and WHERE AS the Parents Support Group of Children with As thma has long criticized the harmful effects of stubble burning; and WHERE AS the smoke caused from stubble burning is not healthy for the general public and tends to aggravate the problems of as thma sufferers and people with chronic lung probl ems; and WHER EAS alterna tive practices to stubble burning are necessitated by the fact that the smoke can place some people in life-threat ening situa tions; and WHERE AS th e 19 87 Clean Environment Comm ission Re por t on Pu blic Heari ngs , "I nvest igation of Smoke Problems from Agricultur e Crop Residue and Peatland Burning, n contained the recommendation that a review of the crop residue burning situation be conducted in five years' time, including a re-examin ation of the necessity for legislated regulatory control .

THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the legis lative Asse mbly will urge the Gove rnment of Man itoba to pass the ne cessary legislation/re gulations which will restrict stubble burning in the Province of Manitoba. As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable memb er for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 19 88 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal peop le; and The AJI delivered its report in August of 19 91 and concluded that the justice syste m has been a massive failure for aboriginal peopl e; and The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aborigina l self-government and the right of aboriginal commu nities to esta blish an aboriginal justice syst em; and The Canadian Bar Associa tion, The law Reform Comm ission of Canada, among many others, also recom mend both aboriginal self-govern ment and a separate and parallel justice syst em; and On January 28, 19 92, five months after releasing the report, the provi ncial government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the rec omme nda tions; and Despite the All-Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self-gove rnment, the pro vincial gov ernment now rejects a separate and parallel justice syst em, an Aboriginal Justice Comm ission and many other key recom me ndations which are solely within pro vincial jurisdicti on.

15 0 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the gove rnment of Manitoba sho w a stro ng comm itment to ab origi nal self-gove rnment by considering reversing its position on the AJ I by su ppor ting the rec omme ndations within its ju risdic tion and imp lem enting a separ ate and paral lel jus tice syste m. *** • (1 335) I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). It complies with the rules of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

WHERE AS each year smoke from stubble burning descends upon the province of Manitoba; and WHERE AS the Parents Su pport Group of Children with Asthm a has long criticized the harmful effects of stubble burning; and WHERE AS the smoke caused from stubble burning is not healthy for the general public and tends to aggravate the problems of asthma sufferers and people with chronic lung prob lems; and WHERE AS alterna tive practices to stubble burning are necessitated by the fact that the smok e can place some people in life-threat ening situations; and WHERE AS th e 19 87 Clean Environment Com mis sion Rep or t on Public Hearings, "Investigation of Smoke Problems from Agriculture Crop Residue and Peatland Burning,· contained the recommendation that a review of the crop residue burning situation be conducted in five years' time, including a re-exami nation of the necessity for legislated regula tory control .

THEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly will urge the gove rnment of Man itoba to pass the nece ssary legi slation/regulations which will restrict stubble burning in the province of Manitoba. *** 1 have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) , and it complies with the rules of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ? The petition of the under signed citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the state of H ighway 391 is becoming increasingly unsa fe ; and

WHEREAS due to the poor concition of the road there have been numerous accidents; and WHER EAS the condition of the road between Thompson and Nelson House is not only making travel dangerous but costly due to frequent damage to vehicles; and

WHEREAS this road is of vital importance to residents who must use the road . WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the prov ince of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the gov ernment of Manitoba consider rev iewing the state of Highway 391 with a view towards improving the condition and safety of the road . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 2-The Endangered Species Amendment Act Hon. Harry Enns {Mini ster of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I have the privilege to move, seconded by none other than the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that Bill 2, The Endangered Species Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les especes en voie de cisparition), be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 3-The on and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. James Downey (llnlster of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 3, The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant le petrole et le gaz nature! et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

His Honour, the Ueutena nt-Governor, having been ad vised of the con tent s of this bill, recommends it to this House. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey) ,

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 15 1 seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 3, The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendmen ts Act ; Loi concernant le pe tro le et le gaz natur al et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois, be introduced and the sam e now be received and read a first time. His Honour, the Lieuten ant-Go vernor, having been ad vised of the contents of this bill, recommends it the House. The honourable minister has also tabled a message . Agreed ? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered.

BIII4-The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendments) Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mini ster of Go vernment Services (M r. Ducharm e), that Bill 4, The Retail Busines ses Sunday Shopping (Te mporary Amendments) Act (Loi sur l'ouverture des commer ces de detail les jour s feri es -mod ifications tem poraires) , be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. • (1 340) Bill 203-The Health Care Records Act Ms. Judy Wasylyc la-Lels (St. Johns): Mr.

Speak er, I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that Bill203, The Health Care Records Act;

Loi sur les dossiers medicaux, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presen ted. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, Bill 203, to enshrine the right of access to one's own medical records in law is being introduced, or should I say reintrod uced this session , because it is a matter of growing public concern, the su bject of a recent Supreme Court decision and a key element in any serious health care reform plan. Mr. Speak er, this legislation is based on a number of principles.

The first principle is that of human dignity, and this bill ackno wledges that the health care consumer has an inher ent right to his or her own health care records and personal informa tion. This bill is based on the principle of fairness and puts Manitobans on a better and fairer footi ng for dealing with our health care system. It recognizes that a relationship of trust and openness between the consumer and health care provider would flow from the right of access.

It acknowledges that a better understanding of trea tment and more active and informed participation in that treatment is facilitated by access to the medical record . Finally, Mr. Speak er, it en courages participation in and responsi bility for one's own health, which can only lead to a better, more efficient, more effective health care system. As such, this bill is an integral part of any health care plan and deserves the serious and timely consideration of this House. Motion agreed to. Bill 205-The Ombudsman Amendment Act Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), that Bill 205, The Ombudsman Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'ombudsman, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time . Motion presented. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, most people would probably be surprised to learn that the provincial Ombud sman does not have jur isd iction to investiga te school boards. School boards are responsi ble for hundreds of millions of dollars of expenditures and for 200,000 students of the pro vince of Manitoba, but there is no appeal and there is no jurisdiction in order to investigate many complaints against those bodies.

The extension to school boards will allow parents and students to have a recourse in cases where there is no appeal. I think mem bers of this House would also be surprised in the last Ombudsman report to note that of over 700 complaints, only three related to the Department of Education and Training. That does not jive, Mr. Speaker, with

15 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 many concerns and comm ents that are heard out of the com munity concerning education. We have the throne speech which talks about education reform and other education reform items. This is a tangible way to effectively and very cost-eff ectively, with very little cost, to effect some tangible reform in the education system and allow parents and students to have a recourse in cases where decisions and actions of school boards do not meet with the parents' and students' approval .

It is timely, and I am sure that all members of this House will assist us in speedy passa ge of this bill, insofar as in the last month we had a situation where a student in school is suing a sc hool board. We know of many others; I know of at least half a dozen others who are considering it, and this would provide some recourse to these individuals and some right of appeal to those decisions. Motion agreed to. *

(1345) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Ques tions, may I direct the attention of honourable memb ers to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us three gentlemen from the Ukraine, Mr. VitaliyTarasenko, Mr. Nikolai Podberyosny and Alexander Pitenko. On behalf of all honourable member s, I would like to welcome you here this afte rnoon. Also with us this after noon in the public gallery, from the Kelvin High School, we have twenty-one Grade 12 students. They are under the direction of Mrs. Bobbi Ethier. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable memb er for Crescentwood (Ms.

Gray). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afte rnoo n. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation No-Fault Insurance Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Rrst Minister (Mr. Rlmon). Mr. Speake r, in 1 988, after a major increase in the rates of the Manitoba Public Insur ance Corpora tion, a reform comm ittee was established chaired by Judge Robert Kopstei n. Mr.

Kopste in had public hearings across the province and made a number of recomm endations to the government, to the now Premier, about how to improve the Public Insurance Corporation and how indeed to save the ratepaye r, consumer, money in the future years. One of those recom me ndations, Mr. Speak er, was for a no-f ault syste m, and the gove rnment was asked a number of times, on a number of occas ions in this Legisla ture, to deal with the no-fault recomm endation before them.

Judge Kopstein predicted that that could save some $40 million dollars to the consum ers of this province, because a Jot of the fees, up to 30 percent or 40 percent of bodily injury fees, were going to lawyers and not to claimants. Mr. Speaker, the Tilling Gas Report that was brought forwar d to the Public Utilities Board predicted some $60-million saving in the no-fau lt pro visions if it was implemen ted .

My question to the governmen t is: They have been saying for five years, they have been studying it and studying it and studying it; why has the government not brought in real reform to the Public Insur ance Corporation so the consumer s could see the benefit of those recom mendations that were made to this Premier? Hon. Glen Cummings (Mnlster charged with the adm inistr ation of The Manito ba Public Insurance CorporaUon Act): Mr. Speaker, the Kopstein report was indeed an important report regarding public insur ance in this pro vince, but I do not think the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) should be quite so anxious to attribute the massive savings that he is talking about. The fact is we have incorpor ated ov er 1 00 of Ko pste in's report recommendations within the corpora tion, but the more important one and the one that bothers the public the most, as a matter of fact , is: What is the real cost of insuring a vehicle to put it on the road in this pro vince , and what coverages and what benefits am I entitled to if I should have an accident or if I am injured?

Those are the kinds of quest ions that we will need to keep out in front of us in the next few months as we examine what is the real basi c need to put an automobile on the road in this province as part of compulsory insurance and the benefits that are available to the injured under those circums tances,

December 2, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 3 because that is exactly what no- fault speaks to, is whether or not certain abilities to recover beyond a certain level for injuries is being considered . Renewal Process Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Oppos ition): Mr. Speak er, I think member s on this side can read back the com men ts of outrage from the member s opposite all day long, but that will not do the consumer any good at all in terms of the increases we are fac ing in the next couple of months. Mr.

Speak er, a further recommendation made under the Kopste in report and further contai ned to the government was to change the cycle of payments. It identified the fact from the private sector and the public sector that to have so many people renewing on the same date at the end of February was indeed a negative fact for the consu mer and a very, very negative reality for retai l business in Manitoba. The government had a recomm endation to change, from Judge Kopste in, this renewal date . On questions we have raised in the House to the gove rnment, it promised to do that.

In fact, the minister promised to do this exact same measure on January 29, 199 0, to go to cyclical renewals to help the economy of Manitoba. His words are right in Hansard, Mr. Speake r. I would ask the Premier why they have not implem ented the Kopstein report for cyclical renewals to help our economy, to help consumers and to help the Manit oba Pub lic Insur ance Corpora tion. Hon. Glen Cummings {Minister charged with the administr ation of The Manito ba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is correct that we have said, the corporati on has said, that they will move to cyclical renewals. Part of that moving forward is the redesigning and enhancement of the computer capacity within the corporati on, which is a large and expensive undertaking, one that needs to be extended over a period of time so as to avoid a severe impact on the overhead of the corporati on.

The corporation is mo ving forward on that model and, with the im plemen tation of Autopa c 2000-which is presently being negotiated ; it was refe renc ed yesterday being nego tia ted a compens ation package for age nts-we will be changing the way in which we do business in this pro vince. There will be cyclical renew als. There will be an opportunity for the kind of service that Judge Kopst ein envisioned at the time of his report. I have to tell you, Mr.

Speaker, if there is one item that the corporation has been focusing on more than anything else, it is bringing the corporation into the '90s and on into the year 2000 to provide the kind of service that the Autopac 2000 will bring. * (1 350) Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Agents' Fees Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speak er, the only thing that is going to change the busi ness of the Man itoba Public Insur ance Corporation is a party and a government that believes in public insurance and believes in the recommendations of Judge Kopst ein. Instead of waiting five years like this Premier (Mr.

Filmon) has done, drifti ng from issue to issue, doing nothing in terms of the recom men dations he had before him-he likes to heckle in the House, but when it comes to doing anything, Mr. Speaker, he does nothing on anything before him. Mr. Speaker, a further promise made by the Premier in 19 88 is they would not interfere with the business plans of any Crown corpora tion. One of the reco mmen dations Judge Kopstein made was to deal with agents' fees in 19 88, some five years ago. In the business plan forwarded to the gove rnment of the day, headed by the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), the business plan of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation proposed to government was that agents' fees would be capped so that they would not get an automatic increase based on this massive increase required by the Manitoba Public Insurance Corpora tion. The gove rnment overrode the business plan of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corpora tion; the gov ernment refused to follow the business plan of the public auto insurance and indeed followed the lobbying they got from the brokers of Manitoba.

I would ask why the Premier overrode the business plan of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and why the lobbyists from the brokers were able to get the attention of the cabinet and not

15 4 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 go to the Public Utilities Board , where the rest of the public had to go to the Public Utilities Board . Hon.Gar yFIImon(Premler): Mr. Speaker, l reject categor ically that the agents got into the cabinet of the Government of Manitoba. That is false , and as usual, the Leader of the Opposition puts false information on the re cord.

I secondly suggest to the Leade r of the Opposition that this is a governmen t that has not interfered with the operations of-{inte�ection] We have plenty of evidence of the fact that the NDP gove rnment, of which he was a part, set the rate s, the 25 per cent increase that went in, rolled back recomme ndations of the board rout inely, shredded the files when it was to their convenience to elimina te evidence of their meddling, direct meddling and interfe rence with a corpora tion, and ran the corporation out of the minister's office and the government cabinet room. This admin istration will not do that.

Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Political Interference Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, we are not going to take it, no big Autopac increases; we are not going to take it, no political interference in Autopao-what a bunch of hypocrit es. Where are the same Tories of four years ago? I have a very simple question to the Premier, Mr. Speaker, on political interfer ence. How does the First Minister justify buckling in to a lobby led by insur ance agents, spearheaded by his own Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Duchar me), on an issue that would have saved a million dollars for the motorists of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): The member for Thompson has made a very serious allegation. He made a very serious allegation , and unless he has evidence to support that the minister was even a participant in any discussions with resp�ct to Autopac agents, I demand that he remove that or put the evidence on the table, Mr. Speaker. That is a matter of privilege that ought to be dealt with by this House if he does not have any evidence to put forward on that. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the Premier should talk to the minist er. He has been taking credit himsel f. When will the minister take action to investi gate the clear evidence of poli tical interference on a matter that would have saved a million dollars for the motorists of Manitoba , clear evidence that he has buckled in to the insu rance agents and their lo bby, with his Mi nister of Government Services taking credit for them having buckled in to the insurance agents' lobby? Mr. Fllmon: He is making a serious allegation.

I demand that he put up what evidence he has that the Minis ter of Gove rnment Ser vice s even particip ated in any discussions or debate leading up to this issue. Put the evidence on the table, or withdraw and apologize. You are turning white, Steve. Put up. Mr. Ashton: Will the Premier investiga te this matter and start by talking to his own minister who has been telling people that he has spearheaded a lobby which was successfu l? Why does he not start by talking to his own caucus members? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the member, in the interes ts of integrity of this House , to put the evidence on the table. • (1 355) Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Temro Automotive Agree ment Mrs. Sharon Cerstalrs (Leeder of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, if our Autopac system is to have integrity, and I think it is important that it does, then we mus t make it as depoliticized a Crown corporation as possibl e, and I congra tulate the gove rnment for having mov ed the rate setting to the PUB. That is where they belong. That is where they should have been under the previous adminis tration .

But there was a serious incident that was raised last night on television. The public needs answers, and I hope that we can get those answers today. The report indicated that the public corpora tion, MPIC, and a manufacturer of a product with a history of trouble entered into a secret agreement with one another. Can the minister respon sible please tell the House today when that agreement was entered into and why it was entered into? Was the Department

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 15 5 of Consumer Affairs informed of this difficulty so that it could keep the consumers of this province adequ ately informed about the dangers? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administ ration of The Manitoba Publi c Insurance Corporation Act): The leader of the Second Opposition has correctly identified a concern that I share on this side of the House, regar ding cert ainly the appear ance and the implication of MPIC having entered into this understanding with Temro.

The one thing that was not included, however, in the report last night was that MPIC did contact the CSA indicating to them that they had a number of concerns. At that point, they felt they were unable to produce enough evidence to take the matter to court. My position is that they should have take n these matters to court one at a time until they were able to prove beyond any dou bt-and through that process they would have been able to produce the public informati on, and then make state ments publicly that they could have supported. It was an error in judgment, Mr.

Speaker, and one which I expect the corporat ion will not repeat. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, to some degree, that begs the question as to when the minister himself found out about this agreement. After all, if one looks back, it would appear that the current Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) was on this board from 1 988 to 19 90, and the now Minis ter of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefa nson) was on this board from 19 90, '91. When was the minister informed of this particu lar secret agreement? A (1 400) Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, the same question arose in my mind as to whether or not there had been any communi cation or any implication in my presence that this type of agreement had been stru ck. It is only within the last 1 0 days or so that I becam e aware of the issue as it was described by the 1-Team last night. I would doubt if this is the type of question that would have been brought to the board table as a matter of fact. I certainly can research the agendas to make sure that was the case , but fran kly, this was an executive decision, one which they tell me they felt was supportable at the time. Obviousl y, I disagree.

Mrs. Carstalrs: If the minister has known about this for 1 0 days, has he in the last 10 days informed the Minister of Consumer Affairs so that she can issue an order prote cting the consumer s of this pro vince? Mr. Cummin gs: Mr. Speaker, all of the departments of gove rnment need to be concerned about the perception as well as the reality of what occurred in this matter, butthe simple fact Is that the CSA certification and the CSA organiza tion, they con tinue to stand behind their position. I have been in consultation with the minister, but there has to be a process that she could enter into.

Entering into a decision without reason would have caused that department every bit as much grief as it would have caused my office if I had made an abrupt decision without correct legal advice behind it. Ozone Depleting Substances Act ExempUons Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for MPIC and for the Environment. Mr. Speaker, as the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) has been pointing out, there are some concerns about MPIC's ability to show leadership on issues of consumer pro tection.

My further question, however, is it has now become clear that MPIC has been atte mpting to shirk its resp onsibility to protect the environment as well . Can the minister explain why MPIC has recently advised the working group on the implemen tation of The Ozone Depleting Substances Act that it req uires a special exemption from this act so that it will not have to saf ely dispose of the CFCs in air conditioning units of vehicles that it is attempting to resell to the public? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administ ration of The Manito ba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr.

Speaker, I presume that either someone from the working group or the memb er himself has summa rized or in some way drawn a conclusion from correspondence or comments made by the corpora tion, because what he has jus t stated is different from my

15 6 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 under stand ing, which is that the corporation is moving towards a project that will allow them to withdraw the CFCs from the vehicles within their responsi bility.

The issue, of course, that no one wants to add ress is that the corporation has to attribute this cost to someone, and it will either be to the person who recently had his car written off, and is he now additi onally going to be deducted to have the CFC removed, or is it going to be the person who purchases that car at auction who will pay addition ally to make sure that it has a green sticker or that it has had the CFCs removed from it? The corporation is moving towards a project so that they can define what would be prope r cost.

This will more than likely be a project that will be undertaken by contract or by tender, and the corporation will be moving towards that, bearing in mind that one ofthe problems they have at a number of their compo unds is that in order to remove the CFCs during the winter, they have to have a heated building and the equipment has to be at 70 degrees before they can properly remove that. That requires some investment or contractual work, and the CFC removal is moving in that direction. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, for the minister's information, I want to table correspond ence dated Nove mber 17 from Ms.

Anne Lindsay of the Manitoba Eco-Network, a member of the working gr ou p. The letter is addressed to him and specifically points out to him that she is distressed about Autopac's application to be exempted from the act. Mr.

Speaker, as a member of the Canadian Council of Minis ters of Environment which is su pposed to be co-ordinating efforts to recove r and recycle CFCs, how can this minister sit at one table and discuss phasing out CFCs but when he is wearing another hat presiding over a Crown corporation seek to get a special exemption for this Crown corporation which every other owner of vehicles attempting to resell them will have to comply with? Why is MPIC special? - Mr. Cummlngs: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba is ac tually leading in Canada today in terms of legislation to deal with CFCs and the implem entation of that legislation.

So let the memb er not leave the impression that somehow we are exempting either individuals or corporations with these regulations. The corporation is not breaking any laws or legislation in this province. They are selling a vehicle. Those vehicles, some of them may go towards reclamation, some of them may go to destruction, and it is a juncture when we have some 2, 000 vehicles within the possession of the corporation at which point they could remove the CFCs. In setting up that syste m, they better make sure that in fact they are going one step further than is required by law.

For him to imply that they are somehow being exempt is absolutely wrong. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, MPIC is seeking exem ption from a law which will apply to everyone else in this pro vince. What kind of leadership and what kind of example does the government expect to offer when it imposes cost and responsibilities on the public for phasing out CFCs but seeks to exempt Crown corporations from the very same law? Mr. Cunvnlngs: Mr. Speaker, something that the member, I am sure, is very conversant with, given his tr aining, is some of the principles of responsibility.

Environmental responsibility very often says that he who has the benefit of the environment and the use in the environment should pay for that cost. Mr.

Speaker, that speak s to my answer previous ly, which was that the corporation has to balance the ques tion and has to make a decision that will be compatible with its organization as to whether, if the person who has just had his car wrecked , who is going to be billed additional ly for the removal of the CFCs because he in fact had the benefit of that air condition ing, or is it the wrecker who is going to take that car and perhaps move on with it to claim parts off of it? Will he in fact be paying for the removal of the CFCs in advance of taking it off of MPIC's lot?

MPIC in fact is not much different in this situation than an automobile dealer would be under similar circums tanc es. They do not have these vehicles for their own use. They are in their poss ession as a result of a full claim write-off. Mr. Speaker, he knows full well that perception is ever ything in the business of politics, and he is trying to create the perception that somehow MPIC is exempt. He is wrong.

December 2, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 7 *** Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insu rance Corporation as well. The minister has jus t noted that he was aware- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services ): Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a matter of privilege that took me a little while to- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. A matter of privilege is a very serious matter. Mr. Ducharme: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, it will take me a few minutes, and I will have a motion that I will give forward . It is very upsetting when you are accused in this House, especially in the example that I have led-when I was in opposition I did not participate in any ofthe functions or any of the comm ittees dealing with MPIC and also, as a minister of the Crown, did not participate , at any time did I participate when I was at cabinet or participate any time at comm ittee hearings. I have made it a purpose to stay away when your family is involved in a particular business.

I have also put all of my business interests in trust. I do not participate in the practice of Autopac, and my fam ily participates while I have it in trust. Mr. Speaker, I deny all all egations that the , member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) has produced, and I move that the member for Thompson produce any of the evidence supporting his allegations that I, as Minister of Government Services, acted in a fashion that could be construed as a conflict of interest in any poss ible way, and failing his ability to do so, that he immediately apologize to me and my family and the gove rnment, imme diat ely apologize to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), to my colleagues in the Legislatu re, to everyone in this House, apologize immediately for his false allegations. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speak er, I indicated very clearly in the question my concern, the concern of our caucus about the minister's involv ement in this, and I based very much of that not only on what brokers have been told but what memb ers of our caucus have been told, including by the minis ter himself. We are very concerned when we see evidence as clear as we do of political interference of a savings of $1 million that could have been had for the motorists of Manitoba that was stopped by this gov ernment, by this cabinet, by poli tical interfe rence, something they promised in 19 88 they would not do.

That is why I asked the question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), how he could justify that kind of political interference . I have no intention of withdrawing the very clear fact there has been political interference and my urging that the First Minister perhaps begin by speaking to his own minister and ask his own minister why he has been taking credit for that, including with members of our own caucus, when now he stands and makes this comment a matter of privilege.

I will not withdraw that, and I would suggest the Premier and the Mini ster of Go vernmen t Ser vices have the explaining to do to member s of this House and memb ers of the public of Manitoba. * (14 1 0) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposi tion House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is indeed a very serious matter. It is the onus of responsi bility for each and every one of us inside this Chamber to bring forward what we feel are legitimate concerns on behalf of Manitobans and to represent what is in their best interests.

At times, and I believe that this is one of those times when the allegations have been so strong , there is some sort of a need to have some sort of verification of the allegations. The Premier in his answer did request for some solid-something tangible, that would dem onstrate in fact that the Minister of Government Services was in fact in a conflict of interest . I have not heard anything to su bstantiate that, and given the serious nature of the allegations that have been brought forward , I would suggest to you, Mr.

Speak er, that in fact the Minister of Gove rnment Services is in fact owed an apology or, at the very least, given the information to su bstantiate the allegations that have been levelled against him. Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speak er, I do not certainly have to tell you this, but certai nly I think I have to tell again other memb ers who maybe have not read rule books recently that when one reads the rule book, there is one

section that st rikes out. That is the area dealing

15 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 with personal privilege. All of us, when we come here into this type of a setting, when we are so much on public view and we are so much vulner able to attacks which have no evidence or have no su bstance , that is why we can stop in the middle of the Question Period to rise at this point in time. That is how serious any allegation is under a point of privilege. Mr.

Speaker, we in public life bring a lot of difficulties on ourselves, and I think all of us want to begin to clear that up to the extent that we can, but when unsu bstantiated allegations are made, we do not only a disservi ce to the person who is being attacke d, but indeed to each and every member of this House. So we all have a vital role, not only in this issue, but in any area where there is a claim being made against another member.

Today we had a situation where the member for Thompson, without evidence, without anything, I am led to believe, othe r than a comment that he may have heard or may not have heard , got up on the guise and raised the question and made a very strong allegation . The alle gation was that a member of the T reasury Bench, through his capacity as a me mber of Executive Counc il, influenced a govern ment decision. What he did not say was: to his ultimate benefit. That is what he did not say in his question, but each and every one of us in this House knows exactly what he meant. So, Mr.

Speaker, that is why the member has to defend his character and i ndeed all the characters of the House that are from time to time charged with an unfounded allegation, and therefore he has to rise. Mr. Speaker, I ca nnot share the minutes of the cabinet meeting of that day when this issue was discussed. I cannot do that, but I can tell the members of this House that the member of the Executive Council was not there. He was not in attendance, so he influenced not any decision that was made within ca binet on this particular issue. So, Mr. Speaker, I rest my case .

This is a very, very important issue , but more important th�n that is the allegation spuriously, falsely made against a member of this House. I would say that if the member wants to do anything honourable at all in his long-standing tenure in this House, he will withdraw that allegation. He will apologize to the member. He will apologize to the Premier, to the gov ernment and, more importan tly, to all members of this House. Mr. Speaker: I am going to take this matter under advisement, and I am going to consult the authorities.

I will retu rn to the House with the ruling on this matter. ••• Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Temro Automotive Agree ment Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister in charge of the Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporation . A few minutes ago, he made the stat ement that he had learned of the Tem ro situation regarding the defective car heaters only 10 days ago. What we are interested in finding ou t on this side of the House is: What action did he take upon learning 10 days ago that this situation had occurred in Manitoba? Hon.

Glen Cummings (ll nlster charged with the adminis tration of The Manitoba Public Insurance CorporaUon Act): First of all, Mr. Speaker, I do not think I could repea t in this Chamber what my immediate reaction was, but let us leave it at that in tenns of what I actu ally said. I should remind the member opposite that I have been known to spend som e time working in the farmyard , so he can draw his own conclusions. Mr. Speaker, the fact is that I immedia tely expressed my conce rn about the position that the corporation found themselves in. I asked if there were other situations similar to this.

I was assured that there were not. I inquired if there were in fact situations that may have arisen as a result of this, where som eone was injured or imperilled. I was told there was not. Nev ertheless, as I said before , when the corpor ation took this decisi on , they did it based on the facts as they saw them. It was an executive decision, and ce rtainly they have said to me, in looking at hindsight, that they would have chosen a different directio n. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Speak er, my suppl ementary to the same minister is: Given that the corporation is responsible for salety in this province, could he endeavour to discover why the corporation did not issue a warning in all this time, neither in their annual reports or referral to the Consumer minister or any other way? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the corporation, as they indi cated to me, sent a number of these heaters

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA 15 9 to an independent lab for exami nation. They notified the Canadian Standa rd s. At the same time, the results that came back from the labs were inconclusive. They had to make a decision whether they were going to go to court at that point, and they were moving towards court but did not feel in their own minds that they could make a case that they could su bsta ntiate . In the course of pursuing Te mro on these matters, an offer was made, and they considered it to be the course that they would take .

Nevert heless, as I said before, I am sure that they would have done diffe rently looking back over a period of time. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, I have a final supplem entary. Will he now request the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) to issue a warning to the public and try to determine how many of these defective heaters are still out there in the public, because I think there are a lot of people who are not aware of this problem at this point? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, because I am cognizant of the amount of time I have in answering a question, I did not refe r to the fact that we have also been in contact with Temro obvi ously to see what their position has continued to be. They have been act ively removing all of these heaters from the market for the last two and a half years or so, I believe. In fact, they will be issuing a press release later today, which will provide some further clarity to what their position is.

I want to assu re the member and the public that we were act ively pursuing the corporation to make sure that there was no stone left unturned and making sure the public was properly cared for. • (1 420) Antlsnlff Legislation Proclamation Mr. George Hl ckes (Point Douglas) : Mr. Speak er, today we are sadde ned to hear another tragic story of a young person who has died as the result of chronic solvent abuse. In spite of the near epidemic proportions of this problem in some areas of the city and in the pro vince, the government has refused to take strong action on the prob lems of sniff.

The Minister of Health said that legislation would be proclaimed in January of 19 91 . Instead , all we have heard are the excuses of why this gove rnmen t will not proclaim the antisniff legislation introduced by our caucus. I have a very simple question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). When will his government fulfill the commitmen t to proclai m the antisniff legislation to prevent another tragic death? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speak er, I, too, read the newspapers this morning and have em pathy for the death of the individ ual and understand that one of his difficulties was sniffing su bstance abuse. We have not proc laimed the legislation that was passed in this House, Sir, because we have not the assurance that the legislati on, as written , would be enfor ceable. That has been the reason for the delay since 19 90. Legal Opinion Request Mr. George Hl ckes (Point Douglas) : Mr.

Speak er, will the Minister of Health table the legal opinions he has received which indicate why the legislation , which received support from the police and commu nity act ivists, cannot be proclai med? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speak er, it has been an ongoing discussion with the ministry of Justice in terms of the parameters of that legislation, whether in fact it has the kind of authority and the kind of outcome that my honourable friend alleged would be part of that legislation.

Sir, we do not have that kind of opinion that, as writte n, the legislation would do what my honourable friend wanted it to do, and indeed I think it is fai r to say what this House expected the legislation might be able to do when it passed it. Mr. Speaker, that is the sub ject of ongoing discussion within my ministry and the minis try of Justice with hopefully a resolution that will atte mpt to uphold what I think all of us wished to accom plish in this House when that legislation was passed . Liquor Control Act Lysol lncluslon Mr. George Hl ckes (Point Douglas) : Mr.

Speaker, will the minister and his cabinet colleagues

16 0 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 take immedi ate action to include Lysol as an intoxicating substance under The Liquor Control Act so that it can be designated and treated as a contr olled substance? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, that is certainly an issue of one of the sub stan ces, and in fact, as I under stand it, was one of the diff iculties with the legislation because of inhalable versus consumable, in terms of Lysol, the spray versus the nonaerosol aspect, and that is where the legislation had difficulties in terms of its enfor cement, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, that issue has not been resolvable on the legislation, with the legislation that this House passed, and that of course, Sir, is why we have been back and forth over a two-year period of time with the Justice department, attem pting to bring further clarity to enforcement of the intent of that legislation. Medicare Eye Examinations Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, when Delilah betrayed Samson and she cut Samson's hair, Samson succumbed and he went blind. If the Health minister proceeds in cutting medicare in accessing eye care, poor Manitobans in a financial bind may ultimately go blind. Mr.

Speaker, through you to the Minister of Health, will the honourable Minister of Health rec onsider, po stpo ne or countermand the impending change in the regulation to extend the waiting time period for basic eye exam ination from one year to a two-year time period come January 1 , 199 3? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, we have been rev iewing issues within the responsibilit y and purview of the ministry of Health and the service prov ision that our plan provides in an attempt to assure that we are meeting medical needs.

One of the recomme ndations that we accepted and are in the process of expediting, and it was in the news some six, eight, 10 , 12 weeks ago, was the extension of a two-year insured optometric exam ination for Manitobans , because that is the prov ision of service that is in eight other pro vinces, the exception being Manitoba and British Columb ia. It was our intent to bring in a two-year examination paid for by the taxpayers. Mr.Santos: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable minster ch ooses to proceed with this change in regulati on, what conditions constituting exceptions will he allow so as to prevent diag nosa ble eye problems from becoming serious and translated into more risky and more expensive eye surgery? Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that, of course, is the sub ject of discussion right now with prof essionals in eye examination so that we can, for instance, assure that our regula tion will not compromise medical condition, because that is the responsibil ity of this minis try in calling upon taxpayer dollars to provide services which have medical necessity. Mr. Speaker, I would suspect we will probably have at least as effective an assu rance that we meet medi cal needs as, for instance, Saskatchewan has, who recently made the same change. Mr. Santos: Mr.

Speaker, would the honourable minister publicly disclose his basic re ason , his basic rationale, for allowing this change , in allowing people to go blind just to have a few savings in dollars? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speake r, from time totime, I have listened with a great deal of interest to speeches made by my honourable friend, such as the creation ofwoman from Adam's rib, but my honourable friend has exceeded the bounds of integrity and the kind of ability to deliver a clear and concise message on morals and principles in this House when he accuses this gove rnment of wanting people to go blind with a regulation change that is consistent with seven other provinces in Canada. My honourable friend does himself a di sserv ice as a prof essional and an educator. Public Schools Act Review Tabling Request Mr.

Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Minister of Education and Training. The Minister of Education and Training had a year-long study to examine the proposed new public schools act, and we have been looking for

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 1 legislation and/or for that report in this House for so me time. Can the minister outline when the report of her advi sory committee will be tabled and when we can expect a new public schools act in the province of Manitoba ? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the hearings for the revision of The Public Schools Act did not end until February of '92 because there was great public interest in responding to the issues relating to The Public Schools Act.

The panel then revi ewing the subm issions that were received-and I am happy to tell the member there were over 1 ,000 petiti ons representi ng over 6,000 Manitobans-had a great deal of work to do, and I have only very recently received a draft copy and then a final copy approximately a week ago. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, will the minister therefore table that report in the House, since she has the final copy and she has made all kinds of reco mme ndations in the throne speech concerning education ? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, in relation to the throne speech, I am very pleased with what this gov ernment has put forward in relation to education in the throne speech, and educational reform relates both to our K-1 2 system and also our post secondary syst em. Perhaps, the member has forgotten that. Howev er, the report which I have very recently received, I am in the process of rev iewing. Mr. Speak er, I have also made it clear to Manitobans that they will have an opportu nity to respond to the recomm endations made by that panel before legislation is brought forward to this House. * (1 430) Mr.

Chomlak: My final supplemen tary to the minister who has failed to answer both of my first questio ns: When will the report be made public? When will we see le gisla tion ? Why is the gove rnment hiding the report? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, as I explained to the member, I have only just received the report, because it is a report which contai ns the opinions representing over 6,000 Manitobans. I think that is a very significant amount of work that has been done in that report.

Go vernmen t is now looking at the bes t mechanism to release the recommendations to Manitobans, the report to Manitobans, and make sure that Manitobans can then be sure that they are accurately represented in that report before gov ernment goes ahead and drafts legislation to amend The Public Schools Act. Pharmacare Smoking-Cessation Products Ms . Judy Wasylyc la-Lels (St. John s): Mr. Speak er, we are increasingly concerned about this Mini ster of He alth (Mr. Orchard) and his government's atte ntion to prevention and cost sa vings as a result of preventative measures in our health care syst em.

Today , we have heard about this go vernm ent's inaction with respect to preventing serious eye problems. Yesterday, the Minister of Health indicated-{inte�ection] Yes, I think the Liberal Health critic might want to consult withthe- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, I will try to get to the question if the other Tory Health minister in this House would just be quiet. As I was saying, Mr. Speake r, yesterday the minister indicated that labelling on liquor bottles pert aining to fetal alcohol synd rom e was un necessary and only appeasing our own consc ience.

I want to ask the Minister of Health, on a very serious issue pertaining to smoking in our society, why this gove rnment has de insured pharmaceutical products that help people stop smoking, that being Nicorette gum, and why this go vernment refuses to provide any kind of Pharmacare cove rage for the nicotine patch. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speak er, all of us know that smoking compromises one's health condition. One also knows that cigar ettes cost $5 a pack or better. pnte�ection) Pardon me, $7. Obviously, I am a nonsmoker.

Often people smoke one pack per day, which means in a month you would spend $200. The patches to

16 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 2, 19 92 stop cost about $1 00 a month, and my honourable friend wants taxpaye rs to pay for it? Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns has time for one very short question. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health how he can justify a decision that will cost this government and taxpayers thousands upon thousands of doll ars, by not taking preventative measures now and avoiding costly medical interventions and surgery pertaining to cancer caused by smoking down the road . Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, with all the respect I can mus ter for my honourable friend and her would-be indignation over measures taken by this gove rnment to preserve and protect medicare which are not dissimilar to pro vinces right across the length and breadth of Canada, including provinces governed by Liberals , governed by Conservatives , gove rned, Sir, by New Democr ats, now my honourable friend, in the comfort of opposition , cries that we should do many things that, of reality in the honesty of governme nt, her confreres in governing prov inces do not do. Mr.

Speaker, all we need to preserve medica re in this province and in this country is a little bit of informed debate and discussion around the issues, not the shrill of rhetoric that we hear from her all the time. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The time for Oral Questions has expir ed. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: Prior to moving on to Orders of the Day, dur ing Question Period, the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) tabled a document which was unsigned. On November 14 , 1 988, I did take a matter under ad visement. I report ed back to the House.

At that time, I noted that Spe aker Hanuschak in 19 70 fuled, and he stated that ali letters when read must be signed and then they become part of the docum ents of the House. In 19 81 , Speaker Graham ruled that an unsig ned and uniden tified do cumen t is an incomple te document and cannot be considered the property of the House. As I did in 19 88 on November 14 , if the honourable memb er was pre pared to make a declar ation on the docume nt simi lar in pnte�ection] Order, pleaS&-the document would then be in the form acceptable to the House.

H this was done, I would be prepared to accept the document of the honourable member for St. James. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Mr. Sp eaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) for an Address to the honou rable the Admin istrator in answer to his speech at the opening of the session, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs.

Carst airs) in further amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member f or Gimli, who has 26 minutes rem aining. Mr. Edward Helwer ( Gim l l): Mr. Speaker, yester day, when I concluded at six o'clock , I was talking about the benefits of rural gasifica tion. Providing a favou rable economic clima te in order to improve our Manitoba farm economy is certainly a priority for this gov ernme nt--as an exam ple, the multimillion dollar expansion by the Brandon-based Ayerst Organics Ltd., which processes a widely used estrogen replacement product for women.

This project will not only re sult in the expansion of the Ayerst plant and provide jobs in Brandon, but also will increase the payments to farmers and to the PMU producers in Manitoba . This is a real welcomed announcement and will have a very positive impact on every local rural economy in the province , but because of the larger payments these producers will be able to inject more money back into their respective communi ties also, which means a stronger Manitoba. So the farmers in my consti tue ncy who sup ply these PMU producers and also the PMU producers with feed and other supplies will also benefit.

As well, the government has revised the Manitoba Agricultur al Credit Corporation financial assistance , so this will also encourage m ore farmers to enter this PMU business. This is a very positive announce men t for ail rural areas of Manitoba .

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 16 3 I also supp ort this gove rnmen t's pledge to intensify efforts to strengthen Manitoba's presence in new and emer ging markets for primary and processed agricultural products . Manitoba farmers are important to this province in every regi on. They produce some of the best products in the world, and I fully support any move that will expand Manitoba's agricultural industry to other parts of Canada, North America and, of course, the world. * (1 440) An Honourable Member: You forgot to mention Mexico. Mr. Helwer: That is right.

I welcome, as well, this governm ent's intention to press our counterparts in Ottawa to act on its re sponsibilities to strengthen and promote the sugar beet indus try not only in Manitoba but across weste rn Canada. Manitoba needs our farmers and they produce some of the best products in the world. I am really pleased that the Speech from the Throne stated that this gove rnmen t will be bringing together the major players in the agricultural indus try in order to identify future directions in diversification, valu e-added processing and exports.

We should work with farmers to produce special crops for export areas. Just in Sunday's paper, one of the headlines "Bumper harvest 'amazing'" also outlines the fact that Manitoba's wheat yield this year was a phenomenal 41 .4 bushels an acre , the highest on record . Canola production in Manitoba also broke records this year, according to one of our surveys, and the provincial average for Canola was 28.5 bushels, which was an all-time high. This will also make value-added industries such as Canola crushing and add to the jobs that are created in these industries.

So I think it is just great that in agriculture in Manitoba, farmers were able to harvest a good crop . Unfortu nately, in some areas the quality was not as good as we would have liked to see, but on the whole I think the crop generally was pretty fair. Guarante eing safe and reliable roads and highways is another very important priority for this gov ernment. In the Gimli pnterjection] Yes, it is very important. pnterjection] It is very important there. In the Gimli constitu ency as an example, for '92-93 the Highways department is going to spend about $3.5 million in upgrading work.

For example, work cont inues on Highway No. 8 between Gimli and Winnipeg Beach, and this will eventually result in a better road and make travel safe r. This is a very important pro ject. [interjection] No, just two lanes, but this is an important project so that members from St. Boniface and other areas can go golfing and also make use of our tourist areas such as our campgrounds and things like that in the popular tourist areas in my constitu ency. So I am pleased that this government is making it safe r for Manitobans and visitors to our pro vince.

I am pl eased that prote cting Manitoba's environment and conserving our natural resources remain a high priority for our government. The Gimli constitu ency is blessed with many natural areas or, perhaps, nature museums. Just a new one Is the Oak Hammock Marsh, of course. The number of visitors who have been to Oak Hammock this past year is just phenomenal. Even the most optimistic estimates have been surpassed . It Is certainly an indication that Oak Hammock is a very popular place for visitors to view the geese and the ducks. That is just one of the natural areas that we have in the province .

We also have Lake Winnipeg, of course, which I would say Is perhaps one ofthe most popular recreation areas in all of Canada. Along with our comm ercial fishermen in my consti tuency, I am anxious to see the introduction of an amendment to the provincial Fisheries Act which will exp and the market for commer cial fish in Manitoba and provide greater opportunities for small businesses in the provi nce. As the throne speech outlined, this amendment will allow Manitoba commer cial fishermen to sell their catch directly to Manitoba restaurants, retailers and processors.

This will mean that our resta urants will be able to feature fresh Lake Winnipeg picker el, Lake Winnipeg goldeye and species that are caught in Lake Winnipeg. It means that our stores will also be able to sell fresh fish to the tourists. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau , Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I am really pleased that this government will establish a fund to support projects that will enhance the quality also of our sports fishery, a recreational activity that is becoming more important in many areas of the prov ince. Just on fishing, in Tuesday's Winnipeg Free Press an

article on the pnterjection] Well, I will read part of

164 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 it-ag ain how well fishermen in Manitoba are accepting the amendment to The Fisheries Act. It says: fishermen applaud direct-sale promise. One of my cons tit uents, Kris Olson, a Gimli fisherman, is very ple ased. He said it is very good news. Also, the Grand Rapids First Nation Chief Harold Turner said that this is a very positive thing for Manitoba and for Manitoba fisheries. In spite of what the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) said yes terday in her speech about fishing, this amendmen t is a very positive thing for us in our constitu ency and for Manitoba fishermen, so I am really pleased that our Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) has taken it upon himself to bring in this amendmen t to The Fisheries Act. It is a very popular thing in my constituency because fishing is a big industry. Our fishermen this past year have done very well with the increased final payments, and it is an excellent indus try and we certainly want to protect and enhance and see this industry grow and con tinue.

I also welcome the introduction of a new Park lands Act, which is designed to better meet the needs of today's park users. So I support this governme nfs continuing efforts to implement the necessary measures to control and properly dispose of hazardous was te. I also welcome new regulations that will be introduced which will impose tougher standards for the installation of the new underground storage tanks which will require testing and testi ng of existing fa cilities and cleanup of problem areas. Just last week I attended a meeting of the Western Fe rti lizer and Chem ical Dealers' Association in Brandon .

One of the topics there was, of course, the en vironment. It is always a very big topic when fertiliz er dealers get together, and I think dealers today are taking the environment much more seriously than they ever have, and spilla ge and misapplica tion and things of that nature are very Important to the dealers and they want to be sure that they are handling this indus try and any environmental concerns very, very seriously.

We hope that with the new CPIC rules on chemi cal storage and the Department of Agricuhure rules on handling of different pesticides and herbicides, the environment will be protected for many years to com e. I am pleased that energy efficiency also will con tinue to play an Integral role in all gove rnment owned and funded operations . The introduction of new policies to encourage the use of renewable and alternate ener gy sources is also very welcome.

I am also encouraged with plans by our gov ernment to introduce a compr ehensive new oil and gas act to encourage and promote and facil itate the explo ration [interjection] and development of Manitoba's petrol eum resources. This is so the people in the urban areas, such as the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), can be assured of a supply of petroleum supplies, for your cottage also, for many, many years to come, so I think it is great . Another key service that is a priority with this gov ernment is with the telecom munic ation services.

Earlier this month, 600 rural residents living near Teulon were switched from party-line telephone service to private lines. These Manitoba Tel ephone service customers are now enjoying the many pleasures of having a private line, like increased privacy , improved access, call waiting, computer and fax machine capabilities. For many of us private lines have been take n for granted, but for those who are just getting the phone service this is certainly a major development and a great thing.

So I am pleased that the Manitoba Telephone System has been able to switch the 600 Teulo n-area residents to individual telephone lines and I know that other rural residents can expect to have this same service in the near future. last year towns such as St onewall, Balmoral , Gimli customers received the serv ice. Also, I am glad to see that the Commu nity Calling areas have been expanded in my consti tuency and many areas of Manitoba .

This is also a great benefit to the businesses located in the small communi ties. * (1450 ) Modern communic ation links have also been introduced in the Evergreen School Division, No. 22, in my constitu ency. Through an agreement between the Manitoba Telephone System and the school division, a setu p called interactive television, or lTV, will soon be used in the classrooms and in the Evergreen schools in Gimli, Arborg and Riverton. Through interactive television, which uses two-way audio and video com munications equipmen t, an instructor in Gimli will also be able to teach students in Arborg and Rivert on.

With lTV, Evergreen School officials will now be able to offer their students more educational options, which is a key in these compe titive times.

December 2, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSE MBLY O F MANITO BA 16 5 In fact, education and training are two very important areas that are being addressed by this gove rnment. Improving standards and increasing pro vince-wide testing and evaluation will also better prepare young Manitobans for the real world . I welcome the refo cusing of the education system towards pro ducing some sound read ing, mathematics and learning skills. This gov ernmen t has also taken steps to help our young people find em ployment.

Through initiatives like the Green Te am, Partners with Youth, a number of young people in my constituency have been able to find work. So I hope that these-end I am sure they will -prog rams will cont inue. Also the CareerStart Program is another excellent program that our co mmuni ties have been able to take advantage of. Several young people from my constituency are also getting a first-hand taste of what it is like to be an RCMP officer. Through a provincially funded RCMP pilot progr am, 11 Interlake residents are currently in RCMP uniform as volunteer officers.

These auxiliary constables are getting the unique opportu nity of experiencing police work close up. I support the cont inuing efforts of this gov ernment to improve the quality of health care in this pro vince. We are attempting to achieve something that is prac tically impossible under other admini strati ons. We are trying to keep costs down , while maintaining a high level of care .

I feel this governm ent's plan to preserve our medicare system by shifting services away from some of our higher-cost institutions to the more personal methods-(inte�ection) Oh, it is an excellent move. [interjection] That is right. All Manitobans will benefit. This government has also played an important, key role in impro ving the quality of life for Manitobans. In July, we announced the $1 .2 million well and water pipeline project for the Stony Mountain area, which will result in cleaner water for residents there.

This project involves the cleanup of previous ground water contam ination and the development of a deep well and piped water su pply to residents who were affected by the cont amination. So the cost of this project is being shared by the pro vincial gov ernment, the federal gover nment and the local rural municipality. There is no doubt, this is a very important project, and I am pleased to have taken an active role in resolv ing this serious prob lem. In closing, Mr. Acting Speaker, I know this gove rnmen t will provide the leadership that Manitobans can rely on to make this pro vince stronger.

Through my government's plan for economic renewa l, all Manitobans will be able to work together for a brighter future. Thank you. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Thank you to my honourable colleagues. I would also like to start off with some thanks to other people. I just finis hed writing my Christmas message to my cons tituency, which is going to go in my newsletter at Christm astime.

I was reminded of the number of people in my constituency whom I should thank, including my constitu ency executive, for their ongoing support and the number of other volunteers and commu nity agencies that I have the good fortune to work with on a variety of issues to ens ur e that the East Kild onan- Transcona community is a better place to live. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank the number of people in my critic areas for their ongoing support and co-opera tion.

I truly believe that being an MLA is a tremendous opportunity, and I would like to express some gratitude for the opportunity to learn from working with so many people who are so comm itted to social justice and equality in our communi ty. I truly believe that I have learned more in my last two years as an MLA than I learned in all my years at university, five years at university. I truly believe that I am the kind of person who learns best from doing, and I appreciate the opportu nity as an MLA to have the freedom to-[inte �ection) The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) said that I will get a tuition fee at the end of the year. That is cute. I want to spend the majority of my time dealing with the throne speech and the economy, and I appreciate the chance to do that. I also wanted to take a momen t to thank and put on record my appreciation for having a new woman in the Legi sla tur e in Avis Gray, the memb er for Crescentwood, as well as the new member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister).

What I notice about both of these people is, they are closer to my generation and the generation shared by the two honourable members here listening to me now and perhaps even the Deputy Speak er. I hate to say it, but when I look across at the benches opposite, I see a bunch of old white guys. That is the majority of the impression that I am faced

16 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 with on a daily basis. I know that there are member s on the opposite side who are a representative of the female gender, but the percentage of women on that side of the House continue&-{i nterjectlon) I am trying to explain to the members opposite that I mean no personal offence to this. I think I have struck a chord with one of the member s opposite. An Honourable Member: Is she scolding you? Ms. Cerllll: I think she is scolding me, but I will continue to explain that I do not believe that their caucus truly represents the diversity in our society.

I do believe that I do not have any problem standing here and say ing that this side of the House does more accu rately represent the diversity, and I include my Liber al colleagues on this side of the House, because we do, I think, more accurately represent the diversity in our society . An Honourable Member: You are so arrogant. Ms. Cerllll: I am not being arrogant. I think it is a fact. Well, now that I have the attention of mem bers opposite- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. *

(1500) The Acting Speaker (Mr. Leurendeau): Order, please. The honourable member for Rad isson has the floor. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Acting Speaker , I was going to say that on Thursday, November 26, when we began this session, we heard a Spee ch from the Throne, and it did not give me much hope that the Conservative government has learned from the mistakes of the past.

I do not think that they have learned from the mistakes of pr evious go vernme nts-pe rhaps even pre vious NDP gove rnments, because I am certainly not going to stand here and say there were no mistakes made but it does not seem that they have learned from the mis takes ma de of prev ious Conser vative gove rnments either nationally in other provinces in the country or internationally. I also want to say that it does not seem like Mr. Filmon learned from his trip to Brazil- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Leurendeau): Order, please. I would like to remind the member that it is the honourable mem bers in the House. Ms.

Cerllll: Thank you. I am working from notes here to some extent, so I will refer to him as Premier. I do not think that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has learned the le ssons that he could have from his trip to Brazil. I had the opportunity, recently, to attend a meeting of the YMCA inte rnational development luncheon, and I was able to hear a description of the trip that Premier Almon attended when we went down to Brazil. I was struck by the ingenui ty and the real communi ty development that was going on as sponsored by those YMCA projects.

I would love it and I would hope that those principles of sustainable development that are being applied on those commu nity projects could be brought horne and be appl ied to the co mmu nity and economic development so nece ssary in Manitoba. I really thought when Premier Filmon returned from Brazil that he had been affected by his experience in a developing country. I have not had the good fortune to visit a developing country. I have learned what I know about international affairs from talking to people from other countries, from watching movies, read ing books and those kinds of second-hand learning methods.

I would love one day to travel. pnte�ection] The Minister of Consu me r and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) insists that I honour my elders. Well, I honour people who deserve to be honoured. I do not respect authority that is not deserving of respect. As I was trying to say, I was going to talk a little bit about the projects in Brazil and that I hoped that the principles that those projects are based on would be applied here. I will just mention what the basis is for those projects that are done using gove rnment of Manitoba money.

This is money that is donated to the Y and in turn goes down to do development in other countries. The criteria for deciding if a project is going to go ahead to be legitima te as a commu nity development and economic development project-it has to meet the following criteria. They question these things: Who initiates the project? Who benefits from the project? Who controls the project? What is the long-term impact on the needs of women, the needs of the disabled and the needs of the environment? I sit back and I think, wow. If we could only apply

December 2, 19 92 LEGISL ATIV E ASSE MBLY O F MAN ITO BA 16 7 those same principles in our province, in our industrialized society in Manitoba, boy, could we really do something. I really would hope that Premier Filmon would have learned from the ingenu ity shown in those commu nities. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please . I would like the honourable member to pay special note to her notes, that memb ers are to be referred to as the honourable member or the minister of a department. Ms. Cerllll: Sorry, I apologize .

I would hope that the Premier would have learned from the idea that they are doing com mu nit y and economic development by not only investing into the corporate and private sector, that they are investing into com mun ity health care , social services and education. One of the projects thatthey did in Brazil was they turned a bar into a co mmu nity school and a com munity centre. This school now is a local commu nity school and centre for young people so they do not have to walk so far to go to school .

In the eveni ng- they have sewing machines in that school so that people can do other work that is going to benefit the economy in that commun ity afte r, when the kids are not in school. Think of it, it is a bar, or it was a bar, and that to me makes it even more exciting. The other project that they did in Brazil, and I do no t know the names of the com mun ities, unfortunate ly, but they turned one room of a building into a dental clinic.

They invested money in a dentist's chair, and what that allowed them to do is not only provide dental care to children and others in that commun ity, but it allowed them to teach nutrition. It allowed them to have access to the people coming in to have their teeth taken care of to learn about the lifestyle changes and the diet that is not only going to give them healthy tee th, but is going to give them a healthy body and enable them to live a healthy life. To me, that is commu nity and economic development at its finest.

I think we could apply those same kinds of ideas and principles in Manitoba in a bigger way, and that is what a government is there to do. In the throne speech, we saw more of the same Conservative, elite, corporate welfare masque raded as progress and diversification, more handout of taxpayer money to industry and business, and I want to em phasize that it was money to non-Manitob an, non-Canadian industry and business. So the capital is leaving our province and ac tually drains our economy. Now I want to talk a little bit about an example of this in my own constitu ency.

Right now, in the constitu ency of Radisson , we are struggling to keep open a local Safeway store . This Safeway store has been there for about 32 years. It is in the part of Transcona that has probably some of the most long-lived Trans cona residents. It is the west end ofTranscona in an area that has a very high number of senior citiz ens. The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says that his grandmother lives there.

Well, he would take a special interest in what is happening in that commu nity, because we have seen the mobili zation of people concerned that they have some control over what happens in their community, and why should they not, afte r 32 years of spending their hard-earned money at a grocery store in their commu nity, stand by when the corporati on, based on their bottom line, is going to be allowed to pack up and move out farther to the 'burbs and provide them no option for grocery shopping in their own commu nity.

They are going to try and maintain the lease in that store so that no other competition can move in. Now I do not call that free enterprise. I do not call that fai r. Corporate feudalism is what you could call that. Not only that, in the research I have found out from investigating the backg round on this case, Canada Safeway is no longer even Canadian.

Canada Saf eway, through the mer gers that are going on on our planet due to globalization, the buzzword of the century, and due to Conservative policies that allow these huge corporate mergers, we now have Canada Safeway entirely owned by an American multination al. Canada Safeway has a debt probably bigger than this gove rnment's debt, but because it is a private debt and all the shares are not even in the stock market, we cannot even find out what the debt is of Canada Safeway.

So now the people in my com munity of Radisson-{i nte�ection) We do have to pay it, because as you remind us every once in awhile, there is only one taxpayer. So we are losing millions and billions of dollars in our grocery money out of the economy, and it is going, I do not even know where, to the U.S?

16 8 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 *

(1510) There is one shareholder for Canada Safeway now-this is what I have found out or what I have been told-that resides in New York. Now to me, we have a real problem in this country , and this is a symptom of it when we cannot even have our grocery dollars spinning around and coming directly back into our economy. I ask myself when I go and buy a loaf of bread at Safeway and I pay $1.09 for that loaf of bread, where Is that money going? How much of it is going to the farmer? We know not very much. How much of it is going to the manufacturer that mills the wheat and produces the flour?

How much of it is going to the corporation to do the marketing and the packa ging, and how much is going to the workers? Well, we know that at Safeway they get paid pretty good, thanks that they have a decent union. An Honourable Member: And that is not affecting our grocery bill? Ms. Cerllll: I woul d say to the member for Rossm ere (Mr. Neufeld) that the salaries of those union workers at Safeway are the least of our worries when i� The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member one more time that it is the honourable member for Ros smere.

All memb er s are honourable in the House. Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. This is what I am talking about. I have had quite an education from being an ML.A. I thought that I had some political analysis when I came into this position , but I like to think that it has been strengthened by my experience of working on behalf of the people in my constituency and trying to raise issues and do something about the devastation of our environment as well as my other critic areas. I want to talk a little bit about that. I want to talk about what was missing from the throne speech.

What was missing from the throne speech .were some pretty key things in my mind. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. Could I have the honourable me mbers trying to carry on a conversation on my left go into the loge and carry It on, so that I can hear the honourable member for Radisson put forward her speech. Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker, I appreciate your rapt attenti on. I appreciate it.

Not once in the gove rnmen t's throne spee ch, its plan of action for the upcoming session, did we hear the words equality, justice, culture, job creation , recessi on, mu lticultur al ism , imm igration, environmental restoration or poverty. Not once did we hear any of those words. Talk about denial. It seems like this gov ernmen t wants us to forget about all of these things, and they expect us to do the same on many other areas. I gu ess we cannot expect, after all, for a Conservative government to have any notion of soci al, econ omic or en vironment al ju stice .

Conser vative economic policies that su pport multinational corporate mer gers, that centralize capital and wealth, that tax the poor and elim inate or strangle gove rnment public services have caused this recession . No one talks very much about the causes of the recession , and I would disagree with memb ers opposite when they try and put the blame on debt. I would disagree with that. When you look at what is going on outside the public sector, the shrinking econom y brings with it other social problems. We have seen the rise in raci sm ; we have seen the rise in violent crime and theft.

We have seen more family stress which in turn causes more health problems and more ignoring. They use the debt as an excuse to ignore the very deep changes that are necessary to deal with those social problems that I jus t men tioned. I would like to impress upon the member s that are opposite and listening that we are really in a crunch here. I am not suggesting that the solutions are easy . People, though, are feeling very desperate . People are feeling horribly betrayed . People did put their trust in this gove rnment. A number of people voted for this government pnte�ection] A largest number, you are right.

I would stress to this government that dem ocracy does not mean that you get elected every four years and between then you can ignore the people who elected you, and you can ignore the majority of people who are impo verished in this pro vince. We should start talking about making our dem ocracy work, about having some accountabi lity. Let us talk once more about partici patory democracy. We have seen what this government thinks of that when they have dismantled Child and Family Services which was communi ty based, when

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 9 they have dism antled housing services which were commu nity based. That is what they think about democracy: Let us control everyt hing; let us obsess with control and let us use the idea that fa ther knows best . I am saying that people in our country no longer will stand for that, and I am very proud of that. An Honourable Member: That is very sexist. I resent that. I am surprised at you. Ms. Cerllll: I will talk a little bit, as the member s opposite get more upset about my terms.

I wonder if they have ever heard of the term "patriarchy" and if they will accept that our society-{interjection] Unfortunately, we do not have a matriarchy. Unfortunately, we have a patriarchy. I am not saying that women are superior and I am not saying that men are superior. I do believe that we both have knowledge and things to contribute and skills and under standings. I would implore the memb ers opposite to listen to the women in their party.

I would implore them to go then beyond their party, if the women in that party are not expressing the deep concerns of women throughout ou r country, because women are not equal, and we cannot treat this society as if it were so. An Honoura ble Mem ber: Give us some examples. Ms. Cerllll: Oh, give us some examples, says the honourable member for Rossmere. An Honourable Member: I think he is trying to trap you. Ms. Cerllll: I do not think I could get trapped on this one. I will get to some examples later on, because I do want to get to talking about NAFTA.

Oh dear, I could talk about the effects of NAFTA on women, but that is another speech. I think the main point that we have to make here when we are talking about the betrayal of Conservative governments to the people in this country is the honourable Premier's (Mr. Filmon) hypocrisy, on the one hand of complaining about federal offloa ding, and then on the other hand of doing exactly the same thing to municipalities in Manitoba.

We have to remember that the Premier of Manitoba is from the same party, has the same policies and the same politics as the Prime Minister of this country, who has gone down in history as being one of the most unpopular politicians of all time, and now is taking it apart, says my honourable friend from Swan River. I want to talk a little bit about both the Tory and the Liberal approach to dealing with our crisis. We are in a global crisis here. No one is disputing that, because on the one hand we want to restore and protect the environment and on the other hand we want social justice.

Environmentalism without social justice is nothing, as far as I am concerned. Social justice means jobs. It means jobs for every one. It means jobs for all of those people who want to work and are not able to because of Conservative economic policy. Now the Tory and Liberal approach is just to sort of hunker down and try to do more with less. We hear a lot of doing more with less. They try to hide it out, wait it out like it is a storm that is going to blow over. Yet we heard the Premier himself say that this is an eco nomic restructu ring, not a recession.

Conservatives across the country seem content to let the corporations and the mon etary institutions restructure our society, and we are supposed to sit back and watch. The gove rnments of the people that they are suppo sed to represent are going to sit back and watch. Well, we have fewe r and fewer people on the planet control more and more resources and control more and more of the wealth, and we have a greater number of people who are living in poverty or on the borderline of living in poverty. It is obvious now to me and to many of us just how firm a hold corporate interests have on our country.

It is our beautifu l yet gasping country . Globalization is the Conservative word for corporate, multinational control of our global, monetary, and industrial trade and capit al. •

(1520) I have a newsletter that was put out by our M.P., the member for Winnipeg- Transcona, and it talks about globalization. A Manitoba result, an example of globalization, has to do with Pine Falls and Abitibi-Price. After years of unsustainable forestry and pulp and paper ind ustry and logging and growth-we will call this growth-Abiti bi-Price can pack up and leave, open a new mill down in the United State s, and they can leave the co mmunity of Pine Falls holding the bag, holding the responsibility for a polluting mill. That is what it is now. It is out of date . It is inefficient.

17 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 An Honourable Member: Pine Falls is doing everything to keep them there. Ms. Cerllll: I know that, and I would wish all the people of Pine Falls well in doing everyt hing that they are able. I would support them 100 percent in taking over that mill so that it continues to support the economy of their communi ty. Wha t I do not want to see conti nue is unsus tainable forestry.

While we have this corporation going and opening up a new mill in the United States, we have the Free Trade Agreement, which is going to assu re that the United States not only has our mill, a new, up-to-date , high-tech, nonpolluting mill, but it also has assurance that it is going to have Canadian trees. Because of the Free Trade Agreement, they are going to be assured that their new mill will have our trees-our new mill, our new trees, our jobs, down in the United States. That makes me pretty angry. An Honourable Member: Explain how they are going to get the trees down there? Ms.

Cerllll: Read NAFTA and the Free Trade Agreement and you will understand how they are going to get the trees down there. I would suggest to you, the train tracks are already set up to go down to the United States to take those logs and, if we have NAFT A, we are not going to have any control over the man ufactu ring or the processing of those logs. We can have full logs going down to the United States. I want to move now to a little bit more of a positive note .

The NDP approach would be a lot different, the social dem ocratic approach, because we believe that government must stand up to corporate interests for the jobs and for the people that they represent. Our approach to development is more holistic. We do not see the economy as a funnel. We do not see it as a funnel to trickle down wealth to those people who have the misfortune of being at the bottom of the ladder in our society. We see the economy as a circle or a wheel, and that wheel must revolve.

We believe that governments, indu stry , workers, commu nity services and consumers are all equal and import ant partners in the economy, and when the partners work together the cycle turns. When the wheel turns it grows, involving more and more people in the economic activity that sustains our cultur e and our society . What I am saying here is that with the rampant competition we have become brainwashed into trying to accept does not work. The kind of competition that was used as the principle at the end of the throne speech isolates the partners in the econ omy.

It creates turf wars and it makes our e conom y unsus tainable. Co-operation works. Health care , educa ti on, social services, recreation-these are all sectors of the economy. They are not a drain on tax dollars, nor a drain on resources. They are an investment into the commu nity and into the people and future of our culture and society. Money invested into these areas creates jobs, develop s commun ities and makes them strong, makes them more co-operative , makes them more self-sufficient and creative , and it makes them healthy.

You cannot invest only money into private industry and ignore social services, health care and education and think you are going to get anywhere near close to having a healthy communi ty or a healthy econom y, says the member for Ain Aon (Mr. Storie), and I agree. A greater percentage of money under the NDP would be invested into people and into families and not into private corporations that are allowed to take the money and run. Real education and health reform cannot be put on the back burner until the economy is fixed or better. Real education and social service reform is part of the solution.

If the $90 million or so that was paid extra to welfare over the last two years was put into work and training programs for things like care and cleanup of the environment, support for the elderly and the sick, education and retra ining of laid-off workers, we would be better off both in the short term and in the long term. This is the NDP approach provincially and federal ly. As I have said before, we must make our dem ocracy work.

This means the dem ocratization of our institutions so people have a say in their education, so people have a say in their health care and in their gove rnment services and in their commu nity developm ent so that the public are not treated like sheep and are expected to vote every four years and ignore it in between. Those things are the old way. Those things are passe, and I really believe that we are developing a generation of people who are not going to stand for it.

December 2, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 1 Before I wish you a Merry Chris tmas, I am going to talk about NAFT A a little bit. How much time do I have left, Mr. Acting Speak er? Eight minutes. I only have eight minutes to talk about NAFTA. I guess one of the main things about these trade agreeme nts is, we can no longer continue to stru ggle for jobs, to be held hostage by the private sector and use our standard of living and quality of life as the currency to try and keep people and jobs in the pro vince. We cannot do it anymore. We simply cannot afford NAFT A.

We cannot afford to lose sovereignty over our natural resources and our country. Some of the issues I would talk about if I had more time would deal with the pharmaceutical industry in respect to NAFT A, natural resou rces, aboriginal rights. I really believe that if the federal election comes and we get anoth er Co nser vative gove rnmen t elected in this country and we have NAFTA, we are not going to have a country left.

I often joke with my colleagues on this side of the House that some days I think I would be better off and maybe the memb ers opposite would be better off too if I just went and lived in the bush, because some days I really think that this is the biggest fight that this country has ever seen. We can no longer talk about economic development and ignore aboriginal rights.

To me, NAFT A is about aboriginal rights -aboriginal rights to have their land claims settled, aboriginal rights to have the Northern Flood Agreement settled, because we cannot be negotiating away land and resources and parts of the economy which are not the dominant white society's business to be negotiating away. I think that we cannot talk ab out natural resources, particularly In Manitoba, without talking about aboriginal rights either-Yery big concerns related to wate r, hydro, for estry.

Something this gov ernmen t does not seem to have clued into yet is the pote ntial for growth in the ecotou rism area-real ecotourism. * (1 530) Maybe if I left this job and I went to live in the bush, this is the industry that I would get involved in, because I truly think that what most people in our industrialized culture and society need is to spend some time out of the city in a canoe or in a park before they are logged. [interjection) In a wilderness area, I would say to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns). I know the Minister of Natural Resources did a canoe trip up north .

I think is was on the Seal River, and I would hope that once again the Minister of Natural Resources was reminded how insignificant we really all are, how insignificant In the big scheme of things the human race is. We are just part of nature. We are just part of the ecosyste m. We are just part of ecology, and we do not have the right to destroy it. Something that Senator AI Gore, just elected to the vice-presidency in the U.S., talks about in the book that he wrote is intergenerational rights and responsi bilities, and that is what the environment is all about to me.

We talk about sustainable development, how we do not have the right to use more than is our fair share so that there is going to be nothing left for the next gener ation, and I would challenge the memb ers opposite to start applying that to the economy. The other thing I want to mention in closing is that another thing that was not mentioned in this throne speech was the buzzword "we are keeping taxes down." That is what this government has held their hat on for the last five years.

So I was just going to give out a warning to people that I think the budget that is going to go along with this throne speech is going to make Sterling Lyon look like Santa Claus. I think that some of the articles coming out with headlines like "Civil Service braces for big cuts" are a telltale sign. I could talk more about the problems with the media in our culture and society, but I will leave that for another day. So with all due respect, I thank you for the time. I feel like I have had an awful lot more attention than often other times; people have been rapt in attent ion.

I will say Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the members in the House. Thank you very much. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Ac ting Speaker, it is certainly gives me great pleasure to be able to rise today to voice a few comments and maybe at times even concerns about what was contained in the throne speech. How ever, the concerns I have probably largely will be directed towards some of the

17 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 rhetoric and the criticism that has been extended by the opposition tow ards the throne speech. I simply have no amazement at wondering where they are coming from at times. However, before I get into that I want to, of course, welcome my new colleague on this side the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallist er), who I have known for quite a number of years and who I have, throughout the years, grown to admire and respect for his, at times, audacity and his intelligent way of dealing with issues.

I believe that will come forward as he contributes during this session to the issues as we deal with them and the matters of piece of legislation that are brought forward and debated on a regular basi s. I also want to extend my sincere welcome to the retu rn of the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) to this Legislature. I had always thought that she added to the debates and the discussions, and we certainly welcome her back to the Legislatu re here at this time. It was sad to see that when the Speech from the Throne was made our Lieutenant-Governor could not be with us.

We all want to, at this time, share our sympathies and wish Mr. Johnson well in his recovery from his illness and hope that he will be able to be with us fairly soon . I also want to indica te that it is always a pleasure to see our Speaker of this House back in the Chair. It is his strong leadership that this House needs and that he has dem onstrated over the years that we admire and appreciate . I want to sincerely say that it is his jocular attitude at times and his approach to authority that we respect most of all in this House.

We welcome his sincere presence sitting there looking at us and condoning our antics at times. Certainly he is an asset as he will guide us again through this session. One of the key elements I suppose that our Speech from the Throne ind icated in setting out the agenda for economic renewal in this prov ince was that we are indeed at a crossroad , a crossroad in economic development, and I think that was clearly demonstrated. It was clearly dem onstrated during the American election that that crossroad does not only, ladies and gentlemen, pertain to Manitoba. Yes, indeed it pertains to all of the world.

We are entering into a different era. We are all going to be subjected, whether we like it or not, to the effects of competition from outside our borders, whether it be from our friends to the south of us, whether it be from the Asian countries, whether it be from the Pacific Rim, or yes, indeed, within the next decade, we could very easily be faced with a competitive ability of the U.S.S.R. to impact what we do in this country.

There are significant developments occurring as we stand here and speak, whether it is through the negotiations of the GATT, whether it is through negotiations that are currently occ urring in Croatia to stop the confrontation over there, whether it is in Tokyo in the financial communi ty, or whether it is in this pro vince, that we deal with on a daily basis about our concerns, about our ability to provide em ployment and indeed food for our children on our table on a daily basis. (Mr.

Speaker in the Chair) We all share the concern, opposition members as well as governm ent-side member s, for those who are less fortunate than we are.

It is for that reason that our goverrvnent has taken the strong stand on ensu ring that we will control the unettical spending that went on during the past decade prior to ourselves taking off iCe, because would we today have the additional $500 million a year to spend that we are now spending on interest rates. • (1 540) I would say to the opposition that they were at that time government and had they chosen a tougher road at that time, had they made some tougher decisions, we would today not be giving the banks and the financial institutions $500 million a year.

We would today have that $500 million a year to provide better jobs and better facilities to those who are less fortu nate, whether it be in health, whether it be in education or whether it be, in fact, pro viding social services to those who cannot fend for themselves. We have tried and we will keep on trying to ke ep our taxes down. Our record today in this province sta nds taller than any record anywhere else in any other nation or pro vince that I know of. Now we are the only prov ince in this country that has for five years straight not increased income taxes, not increased service taxes.

As a matter of fact, we have decreased them . Our strengths are maintaining our health care syst em . Our strengths are ensuring that our child ren will be edu cated , and our strengths are prov iding real jobs in this province. How do we ensure that real jobs are provided by sitting on our

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 17 3 hands and gras ping our knees and shaking every time someb ody sugges ts something new and different, or are we going to be aggressive in encouraging ot hers from outside of this pro vince, outside of this country , yes, outside of even this conti nent, to consider Manitoba as the place to make their home and to invest? How do you do it? By increasing taxes? By decreasing welfare payments as Mr. Doer said that he would in his address to their annual meeting just a few short months ago?

He said, we will spend $250 million to create jobs, and we will do it by reducing the payments to welfare recipients, to those that are dependent on gove rnmen t supp ort. We will decrease their assist ance, and we will spend $250 million to gene rate infrastructu re. Well, I want to remind member s opposite that this government is not spending $250 mill ion on infrastruc ture. We are spending $300 million and better on infrastructure and infrastructure renewal, so what Mr.

Doer has in fact said to his delegates at his annual meeting is that he will decrease the spending by $50 million, and he will decrease spending on welfare and do what? Well, there were also some criticisms of our Premier (Mr. Almon) for making trips outside of this country to attract industries and businesses. Let me remind you, let me read from a Winnipeg Free Press article, I believe in 19 87, November 16 , when the question was asked where the then premier of the province had been, and the answer can be fou nd by looking at whom the premier took with him to promote business in Manitoba.

I believe this was in refe rence to a trip that the then Premier Pawley made to somewhere outside of this country. He took with him the Rnance min ister, Eugene Kost yra. He took with him the In du stry, Trade and Technology minister, Mr. Vic Schroed er. He took with him the Energy and Mines minister, Mr. Jerry Storie. He took with him Mr. Marc Eliesen. Who was Mr. Marc Eliesen? Was he the chairman of the then so famous Manitoba Hydro Board? I believe he was. Our premier, it says, when looking for business takes politicians.

Other western provincial premiers arranging provincial ties to the Pacific Rim take businessmen. Well, I want to say to you, ladies and gentlemen, that when you are going out into the world to attract business to esta blish in this prov ince or any other pro vince, you better take your business commun ity with you because business attracts business. Our strengths, I say to you again, are health care.

Our strengths ar e edu cation for our futu re generations, and our strengths are the development of those Industries that will use our most basic elements for production and cause job creation and em ployment to happen. Agriculture in this province has tradit ionally been viewed by opposition members as just another business. Agriculture is not just another business. The member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) just stood before us a few minutes ago and indic ated that $1 .09 that she spent on bread was not something that she ob jected to, but she wondered where the money went.

Well, let me tell you that we also wonder where the money went when the previous NDP government spent the $500 million a year ruthlessly, without conside rati on for ru ral development. They did not even know the word-know the meanin g of the word •rural development." They did not know what agriculture meant. They built, Mr.

Speaker, bridges to nowhere, and I say to you that if I look at the comments that were made in the press at the annual meeting of the NDP convention by their Leader, they are again on a path of buildin g bridges to nowhere, because their Leader referred to spending money on ret ooling provi ncial infrastructure to create jobs. Specifically what are they talking about? We raised our budget from roughly about a $70-milli on capital budget in highways that the NDP left to last year's $1 00 million or better than $10 0 million, a $30 million increase in hig hway spendin g .

The people in southern Manitoba are certainly noticing the aggressive way we are proceeding with the four-Janing of Highway 75. An Honourable Member: Oh, that is very aggressive . Mr. Penner: Well, the honourable memb er for Ain Ron (Mr. Storie) sits there and says , yes, very aggressi ve. It is notic eable. Well, certainly it is noticeab le. Everybody in this province driving to Altona or Let ellier or St. Joseph or St. Jean or Emer son or Spr ague or Vita will note the improvement of the road system in this pro vince. Yet what did they do?

We are em barked upon a path of economic dev elopmen t to ensure that not only ru ral Manitobans-oh, and I should indicate to you that the

17 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 2, 19 92 NDP indica ted that they were going to look after the health care needs of this pro vince, and in doing so they would consult with Manitobans. You know where? You know where they are going to consult with Manitob ans? They are going to consult with Manitobans in Winnipe g and in Brandon . I will read to you, Manitobans do not trust the Conservative health reform . This is, of course, from a news release that the NDP released. It says, NDP priorities for the next session. They do not trust Conservative health reform .

Many people believe it is just an excuse for cutbacks and services, and Doer says, for these r easons New Democrats are holding public forums throughout Winnipeg and throughout Brandon to talk about health care reform with Manitobans. * (1 550) Of course, that has always been the opposition's forte , to discuss with Manitobans in Winnipeg and in Brandon whatev er issues that come before them. They have yet to real ize-oh, well maybe with the exception of Ain Aon and Swan River -that there are other parts of Manitoba besides Brandon and Winnipeg.

Theref ore, our consultations, through regular cabinet meetings outside of this city, through discussions with Manitobans, are on an ongoing basis consulting about the needs of Manitobans. We know that Manitobans all over this pro vince, whether it is Manitoba, whether it is Winnipeg, whether it is Brando n or anywhere else in this pro vince , need infrastructu re. We need good ro ads; we need good sewer services; we need good water supplies.

For that reason, ladies and gentlemen, our province entered into what is called the infrastructure agreement, the SDI program which is spending $90 million to ensur e that commu nities such as Ste inbach, Altona- yes, we even indica ted that we would include Dauphin, but they, of cour se , s aid no-b ut many other commu nities will be served with water and sewage fa cilities that the NDP had simply neglected over their term of off ice for almost the last two decades. Twinning of Highwa y 75, schools, airports-and I talked about the commitme nt that we made to a new airport in Snow Lake .

I just very briefly talked to the member for Ain Aon (Mr. Sto rie) and asked him how we were progressing with that comm itment that we had made to that to wn. We believe that every commu nity should ha ve access to the rest of the pro vince, whether it is by pro viding airports, whethe r it is by pro viding roads, highways or whate ver. We believe that every person in this province should have access to good, clean wate r. We believe that every person in this prov ince should have access to good clean sewage disposal systems.

The amount of money that we have designated is better than $300 million a year, and yet the NDP were going to, in their new budget, designate $250 million, a decrease of $50 million, and that was going to be their job creation initiative. So much for innovative thinking. It certainly is, in my view, Mr. Speaker, shades of the old Pawley admi nistra tion. They call that, new- think? Well, let me say to you that we believe that in order to strengthen the rural economy in this province you needed new programs, programs that the NDP had not even thought about before .

We initiated the rural bond prog ram, the Grow Bond program , which will allow rural Manitobans to invest in themselves. It wiH give rural Manitobans an opportunity to invest in their own businesses . We as a go vernme nt will gu arantee that those investments will in fact be secured. How many times have I heard questions from across the House sa ying. what have you done? Well, let us look at what we have done . Let us look at the expansion of Arris in Winnipeg, let us look at the expansion in Brandon, let us look at the health care indus try expansion in this provi nce over the last couple of years.

Let us look at the creation of thousands of new jobs in those indus tries over the last couple of years. As k what the previous governmen t did during a similar period of time. An Honourable Member: Nothing. Mr. Penner: That is right. they did nothing.

They did absolutely nothing. pnterjection) We are going to very quickly use the infra structure agreement that we have with the federal government to create an econ omic climate, an environmental clima te so that when ind ustry is looking at the est ablishment of. whether it be in Gimli or maybe even Grunthal or many other communities such as Waskad a, when industries come in and look for homes, they can be assu red that there will be w ater, that there will be sewe r, tha t ther e will be good roads for transportation of the goods that they are going to produce in those communit ie s.

Manitoba me rchandise exports last year were nearly $3.1 billion. That was an increase of 4.5

December 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 5 percent over 19 90. This year we are expecting that the 19 91 -92 export increases will be 13 percent increase over the year before. Agricultural products exports have increased by 33 percent ove r last year. Yet the NDP sa ys, what have you done? Well, we have created an eco nomic trade climate between two great nations that will allow the flow of products on a much more organized and without-restriction basis. That is what we have done. (Mr.

Harold Neufel d, Acti ng Speak er, in the Chair) Now in the Emer son constituency alone pnte�ection) The honourable memb er for Ain Ron sits there and jabbers about things of the past. It is simply an indication of what their aggressive thinking is doing, reverting continually to the Pawley era, and every policy decision that they make and every conside ration that you read and every indication leads me to believe that they are to tally bereft of new ideas. D. W.

Friesen in Altona, one ofthe largest printing companies in this country tod ay, has increased its market share in the United States by $2.6 million last year. In an economic clima te when the opposition members yell doom and gloom, this company has aggressively moved forward and is creating new jobs and new opportu nities for Manitobans, $2.6 million of additional exports over last year. What do they specialize in? Hard and soft book covers, books of all kinds, printing of all kinds, binding of all kinds. lad ies and gentle men, they just opened a brand new office in New York.

They are moving very aggres sively into the North American market. Why is that? Because these people do not believe in sitting back and letting the gloom and doomsayers take contr ol of them. They kno w wher e opportunities exist, and they know how to take advantage of those opportunities. That, Sir, Mr. Acting Speaker, is the difference between free enterprisers and the s ocialists. The socialists will sit there and continually condemn those who are aggressively see king new niches in the marketp lace.

That is why our Premier has said very openly In this House that he will go anywhere in the world to seek out new markets, to seek out new initiatives to provide jobs for Manitoba ns. That, Sir, is the difference between us and them. • (1 600) let us look at the trade agreements that have been conti nually condemned by the opposition memb ers. I say to you that our grain farmers in this country have been the object of a trade dispute between two great nations, the Europeans and the Americans. They have used tax dollars to support exports out of each of their various areas in the world to compete against you and I.

What has it done? It has driven grain prices through the floor in this country . It has made it virtually impossible for those grain producers to survive in this country. Yet, what do the socialists say? Do not strike trade agreements with anybody because we should keep on building more walls around ourselves to protect ourselves, to keep our people within and not let our products flow freely to other natio ns. I say to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-5
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 5.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7cf28bd3670bdd87f7d52bf5c63b1f3a946c6d43

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).