VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00p.m. MONDAY, MAY 4, 1981 NO. 32

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1218 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! DW - 1 I have a communication here addressed to me from the Secretary to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. "The r.ieutenant-Governor has asked me to acknowledge your kind letter of April 15th. in which you informed him of the passing of a resolution of appreciation by the House of Assembly. His Honour directs me to tell you that he is grateful for the generous and kind terms in which the members of the House have expressed their feelings.

His Honour is most appreciative of the respect and loyalty which has been shown to him by you, Mr. Speaker, and by all the members of the House during the period that he has been the Queen's representative in this Province: And it is signed by Major Donald C. Barter. I would also l ·ike to at this time wel­ come on behalf of all hon. members the newly elected member for Bellevue district (Mr. Callan), who today- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: - who, of course, takes his seat, for the first time in this General Assembly although he is no stranger to the House.

So I welcome the hon. member for Bellevue. I would also ask hon. members to extend a welcome to a new Page to my right who will be serving this House during the remainder of this session, Miss Eliza­ beth Hutchings of Grand Falls. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! And finally,while I am on my feet,! would like hon. members to extend a warm welcome to a dis­ tinguished visitor in the gallery today, Senator and Mrs. William Petten. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3383

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1218 DW - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR . L. STIRLING: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had a question for the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge),but in her absence and in the absence of the Premier I will ask the question to the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). What action is the government taking to avert what now appears to be common knowledge throughout the Province that there will be a strike amongst the teachers of this Province? Can the President of the Council fill us in on what action government is taking to avert that strike? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) can give details to the answer I am going to give, but I will just say to the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) that his question has a certain presumption and supposition to it that, in fact, there is going to be a strike.

This government is ready, willing and able at all times to negotiate with the negotiating committee of the Newfoundland Teacher's Association and to negotiate in good faith with them with the aim and the hope of arriving at a reasonable settlement, reasonable for the teachers of this Province, Mr. Speaker, having taken into account the capacity of this Province 1 in its financial resources,to pay. MR. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 3384

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1219 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, if this were the first confrontation with this government and a group of employees it could be understood that the government would sit on their hands and hope for the best, but in view of the same presumption taken last Summer when the fishermen's strike took place, the pres,mption that nothing would happen, and the presumption that NAPE would be beaten to their knees, and they actually had to go on a hunger strike, what I am asking the President of the Council is does the government have any contingency plan in effect now to take any last minute action to avert a strike? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, the matter of education is the responsibility of other concerns but it is also very much the responsibility and con­ cern of the Province. As far as we are, concerned, Mr.

Speaker, in this particular matter, this is a part of the normal collective bargaining process,and the hon. gentleman can make his own inferences as to the way in which the government has operated in the matter of these labour disputes, and I am sure that his own inferences will be as he wishes to infer, but the fact of the matter is the government continues to honour the matter of collective bargaining, of labour negotiation, and is negotiating in good faith, has been negotiating in good faith, will continue to negotiate in good faith, and hopesthat this result will be about a solution. MR.

STIRLING: A supplementary. MR •. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition . 3385 I '

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1219 NM - 2 MR. STIRLING: Do I understand from the President of the Council that t here are ongoing negotiations now taking place to avert this strike? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is not the place to get into the area of what is happening, particularly with .on­ going negotiations as to the way they are. The fact of the matter is that this matter is within the collective bargaining process at the present time.

The government is ready, willing, and able at any time to sit down with any group in this Province for the purpose of discussing their financial needs in relation to the financial capacity of the government to respond to them. And, you know, that is the situation. It is a situation which is well known and I do not propose, I do not think it is in the interest of the present ongoing dispute, neither is it in the interest of the people who will be affected,to get on to the floors of the House of Assembly, the public floors of the House of Assembly, the people's House, and get involved - AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

MARSHALL: face. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: matter - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: - a poor face - - no, no, it is not a poor Oh, oh! -to · get involved, Mr. Speaker, in the Oh., oh.! Order, please! - Mr. Speaker, to get into the specific details of the collective bargaining process and collective bargaining. 3386

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1219 NM - 3 SOME HON. ~ERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (s:irnms) : O~der, please! A supplementary, the bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I understand that this government does not negotiate ana they do not wish to discuss things in this House, and they do not wish to be asked questions. Can tne President of the Council g i ve any assurance to the parents that there is any kind of a contingency 3387 l,'t:.

May 4,1981 Tape No. 1220 AH-1 MR.STIRLING: plan to deal with the situation of students who may not be given the opportunity to write exams7What will be the situation as far as those children are concerned if the government persists with their pattern of no negotiations, total arrogance,and if we have a strike which will last well into next year; , can the President of the Council give any assurance to the parents that any kind of contingency plan is in effect to protect the students? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, that question has the hon. gentlemen's own imprimatur on it. He has his own conclusions,that this government will not negotiate with anybody, is not reasonable, etc. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, we are in the throes now of a very sensitive collective baragining process and as far as the direct answer to his question is concerned, Mr. Speaker, I am not in the process of answering hypothetical questions. That particular question will be addressed at such time as it becomes a reality. MR.SPEAKER: MR.LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr.

Speaker, I am going to try and get an answer from the President of Treasury Board because the hon. the House Leader seems to think that the procedure with respect to collective baroaining is secretive. So, Mr. Speaker, with that brief but very necessary

preamble, I wonder if the President of Treasury Board can indicate to members of this House,and by so doing to the people of this Province,what now is transpiring between the teachers and the Treasury Board? Is there any negotiation? As I understand a strike vote is about to be taken,so the question is have all negotiations now ceased? Are we at the procedure 3388

May 4,1981 MR. LUSH: a strike vote? Tape No. 1220 AH-2 now where the NTA is asking for Is that the procedure we are at now or are there some negotiations going on before that strike vote is taken? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): DR. COLLINS: The han. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, following the annual meeting of the association last week there were meetings between representatives of the Teachers' Association and the Department of Labour and Manpower and between the officers in the Department of Labour iilld Manpower and Treasury Board. There was considerable discussion as to the outstanding issues.

Now the han. members understand and of course the asspciation knows that government has accepted the majori~y conciliation board report which amongst other things recommended a certain salary package. We accepted 3389 r.

May 4, 1981 Tape 1221 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: that majority report and the association knows we accepted that report. They, themselves, came back with another proposal and we indicated, having looked at the proposal, that was not a proposal that we could accept and we asked them to reconsider the matter 1 and if they saw fit to reconsider the matter that we would be available to discuss it with them through Labour and Manpower or 1 if need be,if it seemed appropriate, directly.

At that point in time, the representatives of the association, I understand, decided to consult with the executive committee of the association and, I think, subsequently with the board of the association, and I believe that took place over the weekend. Now, since that time I have not received any further word on what the representatives of the association have decided to do. I have not received any further word whether they intend to request the services of the conciliation facilities within the Department of Labour and Manpower or not.

But we have indicated that if they so wish to do, we will be available to carry on meetings and discussions similar to those that took place late last week. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, the hon. the Although I can appreciate the minister might not want to give the specific details relating to the present problems with respect to the teach- ers right now, can the minister indicate whether the qispute is a monetary one or whether it is related to other issues? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of issues but the strong indication we have is that the 3390

May 4, 1981 Tape 1221 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: monetary one is the primary one, that is the essence of the whole piece, and that if that is settled to mutual satis .faction that the other items very likely would not prevent an agreemen -t. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): the membe~ for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. A final suppleJ:1lentary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, in view of the tremendous inconvenience, for the want of a better word, Mr.

Speaker, I suppose, in view of the great anxiety and frustration and the many problems that would be caused by a t~acher strike- and one which I am sure that the teachers themselves do not really want to call - but in view of the frustration and anxiety and the problems that this particular strike would cause, has the Treas?ry Board indicated their willingness to make any moves at all towards th.e demands of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association - MR. ST.IRLING: T-owards meeting. MR. LUSH: -Eowards meeting their demands? 3391

May 4, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 1222 The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any doubt in the minds of the representatives of the association that Treasury Board would be meeting with them through the Department of Labour and Manpower. If we did not consider th.e point that

a) we have accepted the conciliation board report;

b) they did not accept it and they have indicated very distinctively that they SD - 1 did not see their way clear to accepting it in the future, so I think that taking those into consideration I am sure the association understands that government is willing to talk about something different from what the conciliation board report stated. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Agriculture (Mr. Goudie).

Would th.e mini.ster tell us if; the government has entered into an agreement or a contract with an individual or a group of individuals now here in this Province to supply agricultural lime or agricultural limestone to the farmers of this ?rovince? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there was a decision taken on the supplying of agricultural limestone to be mined in this Province. I am subject to correction on the number of months ago,but it was last year when the agreement was reached. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEA.KER: for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supp~ementary, the hon. member Would the bon. gentleman care to give us some details, the name of the individual or the fi.ril\ that will be supplying the limestone and where the 3392

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1222 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: supply of limestone will be obtained? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot remember the name of the company. The principal, the one name that comes to mind 1 is Mr.Wallace Maynard up in the St. Barbe district. I cannot remember the exact community. That information I can get for him. But that is the firm that was awarded the contract which was advertised by tender last year. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Supplementary, the hon. member for Would the hon. the Minister of Agriculture care to tell the House where Mr. Maynard will get his supply of limestone? I think that is very important that we find that out. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister for Agriculture. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will get that information. I do not know the name of the community off the top of my head but it is from that general area up there. I will get the information for the hon. gentleman tomorrow if that is satisfactory. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Supplementary, the hon. member Does the hon. gentleman know if the limestone will be secured in the Daniel's Harbour area where the waste from the mine, the tailings from the mine, is being stockpiled? Is that wher~ Mr. Maynard will get his limestone? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is in the Daniel's Harbour area, yes. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 3393

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1222 so - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Supplernentary,the hon.member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Why do I have to ask so many questions? It is like extracting a tooth. MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: He ~s giving it to you in b~QY talk. u.n, oh! ]irst of all I have to ask the bon. gentleman questions 1 then he does ~ot remember, he has amnesia.Then when I asked him if it was in Daniel's Harbou~ he says yes; all of a sudden he knows.

Well would the hon. gentleman tell the Hous.e if the agricultural limestone is being taken from the waste, the tailings in Daniel's Harbour, if it has been tested to see if it is suitable to be used by the farmers as agricultural lime? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Agriculture. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the material in question was 3394

May 4,1981, Tape 1223 1 Page-~ --- ape MR. GOUDIE: test :ed and has been found, at least to date, to be quite suitaole for farming. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): hon. the member for LaPoi.le. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary. The Would the hen. gentleman tell the House if this waste material that is being removed from the ore at· Daniel' -s Harbour, the tailings, contains cadmium? And if so, is that not dangerous to people's health .? AnQ. if it does contain cadmium, would tne hon. gentleman undertake to find out if any of it lias already been used?

Because once it goes on the ground that is the end of it, the ground is ruined forever. Would the hon. gentleman check that out, because that is very important? I am told that this cadmium is dangerous to people's health because of the chemicals it contains. w-ould the hen. gentleman, if he cannot gi.ve us the answer now, undertake to get the. answer at the earliest possible moment for this House? MR. SPEAKER: The lion. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that lLmestone does contain cadmium.

As I indicated in a previous answer, the limestone had been tested and had been found, certainly up unti.l this point in time, to be qui.te safe for use. But just to ensure that there are all neces -sary safety measures: being carried out, I will double . check it again. But to th.is point in time the information I have from the staff in the department is that th.e cadmium content of that particular limestone is not at a high enough level to be of danger to anyone. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. 3385

May 4, 1~81, Tape 1223, Page 2 ~- apb M.~. HISCOCI<: A supplementary on that.

Is it not true that the offici.als in the fie.ld, fourteen field officials, have recommended that the department turn this down and that basically this cadmium is of a very high rate and if it gets into the soil at the rate that it is, the farmers are very concerned and will have to give up using that land indefinitely and that it is one of the major healt~ concerns, or potential health hazards to this Province since any other hazard has come - it is one of the major health potentials, put it this way, of the. future, if something is not done immediately. MR.

SPEAI<ER(Simms): The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of fourteen members of my staff, I think _ the han. member is suggested, who have recommended that this not be used. I had a representation from another person who placed a bid on that par_ticular tender last year who suggested that he felt the cadmium content in the lime­ stone was too high. Well, I emphasize again it was one of the other bidders. I had my staff check out the cadmi.um content of that particular limestone in question and they have informed me.

And I read memos on it from the staff as early as this morning indicating that the cadmium content of that particular limestone is not a health hazard at this point in time. But I will double check it. MR. NEARY: Sir. MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A further supplementary, The hon.the member for Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman tell the House - how this came about, this using the - waste material down in Daniel' s- Rarbour that apparently contains chemicals that are dangerous to people' ·s health? 3396

May 4, ~98~, Tapa~223, Page 3 - - apb MR. NEARY: If it is put in the ground it is there for a long time and that ground will have to remain unused for a long time to come, probably forever. Can t he hon . gentleman tell us how it came about? Was ehere a proposal from Mr. Maynard to the Government? If the government called tenders, were the tenders designed in such a way that you could only use the waste material at Daniel ' s Harbour? Was the tender designed in such a way to favour Mr. Maynard? Why not the limestone in Port au Port? MR. TULK: A good question. 3397 • ..u •

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1224 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. J. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, no, of course, the tenders were not designed so that one particular person in this Province could take advantage of that particular tender process. Of course not. There were public tenders. I do not remember the number of people or firms who tendered on ti1a.t particular project. As I said it dates back, almost a year now, when this thing first carne into place.

I would have to check to find out how many tenders were involved because as I indicated one other person, one other firm which had tendered on that particular process of quarrying limestone in ·the Province brought to my attention before the House recessed for Easter that he felt the cadmium content of that particular limestone was too high. I will emohasize again that that was one of the other people who bid on this particular contract. The decision was made by government to use not just the limestone or the tailings , as the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) suggested,from Daniel's Harbour but to find a source a limestone within the Province.Because traditionally in the agricultural industry all limestone had been imported into this Pro­ vince from some other part of the country. We wanted to find a local source of limestone and to set up an industry in this Province, as small as it might be, to cater to the agricultural industry and that is why the tenders were put out in the first place. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. 3398 •"""

May 4, 1981 MR. S. NEARY: MR. J. HODDER: Tape No. 1224 DW - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I will yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) yields. for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, it seems every time we turn over a rock Mr. Maynard crawls out from under it. Would the hon. gentleman undertake to table all the cor­ respondence, tenders, the whole - MR. J. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. D. HANCOCK: What are you spokesman over there today or what? MR. S. NEARY: The Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) cannot even do his own job without trying to come to the rescue of the Minister of Rural Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) who is in a bit of trouble at the moment over this matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman care to table all the correspondence in connection with this matter MR. HANCOCK: And the contracts. MR. S. NEARY: -and the contracts that the govern- ment, that his department has with Mr. Maynard? Because I am told, Mr. Speaker, that Mr.

Maynard,whether or not he gets the supply of limestone in this Province or not, if he brings it in he still gets his percentage for bringing it in to the Province. AN HON. MEMBER: That comes in anyway. MR. S. NEARY: And it comes in anyway. It does not make any difference who brings it in, Mr. Maynard gets his 10 per cent. It does not make any difference if the Minister of Fisheries brings it in, Mr. Maynard still gets his 10 per cent. 3399 ' .

tolay 4, .1 98 1 Tape No. 1224 ow - 3 MR. S. NEARY: I would like to see that contract tabled. Would the hon. gentleman undertake to table every detail in connection with this contract and with this supply of agricultural limestone for the farmers of this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. J. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I do not feel as if I am in any particular trouble at the moment,contrary to what the hon. member has suggested.

And I would also suggest that the tendering process was followed the same as any other government tende 'r is followed - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. GOUDIE: by Mr. Mayna.rd Oh, oh~ At least we got a tendering process. Look at the Public Works scandal. - ane that the firm in question owned 3400 fo'

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1225 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: was awarded the contract in the usual manner. There is no difficulty that I am aware of, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: We will get all the facts. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I understand I heard the minister say a few minutes ago that they had looked for suitable limestone around the Province for agricultural purposes, and in light of the fact that the Port au Port limestone block is the largest block of limestone on the Eastern Seaboard of Canada, and also in light of the fact that - AN HON.

MEMBER: And North America. MR. HODDER: And North America, the hon. member is correct. And also in light of the fact that during the days of the Labrador Linerboard mill that limestone was being quarried there in Port au Port, has the minister given any consideration to the use of agricultural limestone from the Port au Port group for use in agricultural purposes? MR. SPEAKER: and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural Mr. Speaker, when this tender was awarded there was no specific region identified in the tender call where the agricultural limestone had to come from.

The tender was awarded on the normal basis, as far as I am aware, unless there is something that I am not aware of - MR. NEARY: Well, there is some-thing (inaudible) , MR. GOUDIE: - and the tender was awarded to Mr. Maynard or to his firm. He identified in his tender that this is where he was going to get his source of limestone and the tender was awarded on that basis. There was no particular region of the Province identified as being the source of agricutlural limestone in the Province. 3401

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1225 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I just want to ask one short question to the minister. If indeed the limestone in Daniel's Harbour is not adequate because of impurities for the use for agriculture in the Province, would the minister look at the Port au Port area, which as I said before,is the largest and most pure group. MR. FLIGHT: Too lazy. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR •. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, there seems to be a great deal of concern expressed about the cadmium content and I assume that is the basis on which hon. members are objecting to this whole process that we have gone through. If the cadmium content is at a dangerous level then of course we will go looking for agricultural limestone in another source. MR. NEARY: How do you get out of the contract? MR. GOUDIE: And Port au Port would be as likely an area as anywhere else.

However, as I have said in earlier questioning, the staff of my department, the people who are specialists in this particular field, have indicated to me that there is no danger from the cadmium content in this limestone,but I will, Mr. Speaker, review the situation again to reassure not only myself but all hon. members and the public of the Province that indeed this limestone contains cadmium at an acceptable level. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. 3402

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1225 NM- 3 MR . HISCOCK: The minister says that his officials are saying that the r.~te of cadmi um in it is quite acceptable and that there is nothing to be concerned about. Is it not true that the officials of his department had a meeting and the field 3403 .....

May 4, 1981 Tape 1226 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: staff were brought in and only for an hour were given the three reports, and all three reports were written from a very biased point of view reinforcing Daniel's Harbour tailings of the mines and that they only had an hour to read the reports which were written from a biased point of view and then after they had to give their comments on those reports and within a week tenders were calleo· ? And in his department now it is one of the major concerns of agriculture because of the impact it will have upon the Newfoundland grown.

If it is going to be a health hazard then the land - we have so very little land, but if it is going to be contaminated then our Newfoundland grown products and our programme that the department has built up over the years aredown the drain. Is that true? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the hen. member is suggesting over there. I know nothing about an hour-long meeting in which a biased report was read • By ·'Whom? MR. HISCOCK: MR. GOUDIE: member is talking about. MR. HISCOCK: MR. GOUDIE: Well, find out.

I have no idea who the hon. Find out. If he has some allegations to make, I would suggest that he come out with them, Mr. Speaker, so that this scare tactic process that he is going through right now is not used to scare the general public of this Province. As I have said before, Mr. Speaker, the staff have assured me up until I left a week ago that the cadmium content of this limestone is acceptable. I will review it again and if it is not then something will be done about it, 3404

May 4, 1981 Tape 1226 EC - 2 MR. GOUDIE: but at this point in time, I am satisfied that the cadmium content is not high or dangerous to the farming industry or to the general public of this Province. MR. NEARY: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this was indeed a rush job and my hon. colleague is correct that the field staff were called in, given these reports, sent home, and within a week tenders were called. It was a rush job. And the reports they read were merely a sales pitch for the tailings in Daniel's Harbour by Mr.

Maynard, and the staff are very concerned about it. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, I would not have raised the matter, because the hon. gentleman may be surprised where the information came from. MR. SPEAKER: supplementary question. MR~ NEARY: Order, please! The hon. the member has a Well, I am going to ask the hon. gentleman to tell the House what is the term of the contract? Is it a year, two years, three years, five years? What is the term of the contract?

Would the hon. gentleman tell us how he could manage to get out of the contract in the event that the cadmium content of the tailings in Daniel's Harbour is too high to be used as agricultural limestone in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, all I am suggesting is that if the cadmium content of this agricultural limestone under question today is proven . to be unsafe, if the cadmium content is there at too high a level, then,obviously, the only thing to do is to get out of the contract or to correct 3405

May 4, 1981 Tape 1226 EC - 3 the proo.ess in some way or other. But at this point in time there is no fear, based on the information that I have,that the cadmium content is too high. Obviously, if it is not too high, if it is safe to be used, then there is no reason to get out of the contract that I am aware of. Z.1R. NEARY: MR'. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile . MR'. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A suppleme .ntary, the hon. ·the I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if the university was invited to research this waste material at Daniel's Harbour?

The hon. gentleman did not answer my question on the term of the contract. And if the government did buy their -way out of the contract, \.,hich would be a pretty expensive undertaking, would not 3406

May 4,1981 Tape No. 1227 AH-1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Maynard still get his ten per cent?If the agricultural lime has to be brought into Newfoundland, it does not make any difference who brings it in , under the contract will Mr. Maynard still get his pound of flesh from the taxpayers of this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. minister. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice. I do not really know if the university was invited to - MR. NEARY: You will table everything? MR. GOUDIE: I will get whatever information I can, Mr.

Speaker, and as soon as it is available, yes, make it available tc hon.members of the House. MR.FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR.SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: It seems an obvious question, Mr. Speaker The minister has indicated that a contract has been let to a company of .which Mr. Maynard is the owner. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister tell us whether or not his department has attempted to determine the level of cadmium before they went into a long-term contract or any contract?

That would seem to me to be the obvious thing to do. Did his department determine or attempt to determine whether or not the cadmium level is too high before the contract was signed. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the cadmium content of that particular limestone that is under question 3407

May 4,1981 MR. GOUDIE: Tape No. 1227 AH-2 today had been looked at before any tenders were placed and it has been analyzed several times since that. As I have indicated,! cannot give the hon. House all of that information in chronological order today but I will get the information and provide it to the hon. House as soon as the information is available. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): expired. The time for Oral Questions has PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Lewisporte.

MR.WHITE: I have the honour to present today the report of the Legislature's standing committee on Public Accounts for the financial year ended the 31st of March,l979. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! NOTICES OF MOTION The President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. the Minister of Justice I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask lease to introduce the following bills; a bill,"An Act To Provide Certain Rights For Blind Persons," and a bill, "An Act To Amend The Landlord and Tenant (Residential Tenancie£)Act, 1973". MR. SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle.

SOME HON.MEMBERS: ORDERS OF THE DAY · Motion 1. The Budget debate . The hon. the member for the Hear, hear! 3408

May 4,1981 MR. ROB.ERTS : be back in the House. !1R. HANCOCK: MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 1227 AB-3 Mr. Speaker , it is a pleasure to You are driving them out already, 'Ed'. I should hope so. I would like to drive them all the way out, Mr. Speaker, either through - MR. HANCOCK: ·They are doing that themselves. MR. ROBERTS: - an election or out of office, any lawful way to achieve either. It is a pleasure,as I was saying ~efore my friend from St. Mary's-The Capes(Mr . Hancock) erupted hirrlself back there, to say· a few words about the - Oh, 0 11 : MR. ROBERTS: Now here we go again, Mr. Speaker.

I can,as I have demonstrated over the years, I can really shout as loudly as anybody in the House,including the gentleman 3409

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1228 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: from Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) and the gentleman from St. John's East Extern (Mr. Hickey). I would not attempt to surpass the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) but I might be able to come fairly close to him in volume if not in intellect,but I do not want to have to engag~ in a shouting match - MR. HANCOCK: You are really showing him up. MR. ROBERTS: - and so I would ask my hon. friends carrying on the little caucus there if they could either do it more quitely or if they could move outside the House.

I have no desire to engage in a shouting match; I do not think it helps the House. I do not think it helps the - AN HON. MEMBER: They can all leave. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I just as soon the gentl~man for Bonavista South left 1 unless he wants to say something witty which I realize is probably beyond his abilities 1 but short of that perhaps he could just be quite or at least behave himself if he cannot be quite. Now what r began to say before the hubbub across the House what that there are a number of ways we can regard this Budget Speech which the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) delivered himself of back in the halcyon days three weeks ago before the House rose so those who wanted to go South could go South. It could be regarded as a financial statement,which it is. The Budget,and particularly the appendices attached to it, the various documents and the Budget, you know, has grown, the physical documentation has grown like topsy and I am not so sure if we are any further ahead.

The minister,when he came to talk of waste and extravagance and prudent housekeeping, might begin by reducing the volume of physical material that is made available for the budget.But in any event, be that as it may, the budget is a financial statement. It is more or less a report to the shareholders in this Province and 3410

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1228 so - 2 MR. ROBERTS: there are a number of comments I want to make about that aspect of it. It is also an economic forecast. T.he minister in his speech made some forecasts about our economy this year and of course the documentation that was tabled equally makes some detailed forecasts about our economy. It also talks about the estimates for the coming year,and the estimates themselves are tabled with the budget so we get some idea what the government propose to spend.

It talks about the tax changes, and I will have something to say about the tax changes, the increases,because that is all tax changes ever mean in the hands of this government. But most importantly of all, Mr. Speaker, the budget is a economic and a social road map, it is the document that more than any other shows what this government consider to be their priorities and how they propose to go about trying to achieving them. And that is really what I want to talk about in the primary sense.

It is very easy for me to stand here and it might be good sport for a few minutes to flay the government's financial policy,if in fact they have one. You know , you can talk about the economic concerns of either the government of this Province or of the people of this Province,and sometimes those concerns are the same and sometimes they are divergent.

You know, if you list them down anybody would say they are five separate types of concerns of the economy, or that are economic in scope: taxes, cost of living, hydro rates, which, of course, are part of the cost of living and also are a tax by another name, the unemployment or the lack of employment and, of course, the lack of services. Those are surely, Mr. Speaker, the five significant economic concerns of the people of this Province, these are the economic issues as opposed to constitutional or political or personal or whatever concerns we may have. 3 411

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1228 so - 3 MR. ROBERTS: The budget, it is fair to say, has absolutely nothing to offer of any help on any of those five separate issues. On taxes, the Minister of Finance ' s (Dr. Collins) only proposal is to drive them higher still. He has done that. He has maintained his record and maintained that of his administration and of its predecessor and as Kipling said, 'The colonel's lady and Judy O'Grady are sisters under the skin;then the Minister of Finance is certainly a sister under the skin with such notable benefactors of the public as Mr.

John Crosbie, one of the truly great finance ministers of this Province; he took away the mothers' allowance - that was his big achievement. The Minister of Finance has maintained the impeccable and unblemished record of the 3412

May 4, 1981 Tape 1229 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Tory Government in this Province; they have yet to bring in a Budget that has not increased taxes. There has not been one of the ten or eleven they have brought in that has not increased taxes. They have never lowered a tax with the exception of the fuel oil tax and the s.s.a. on children's clothing.

The s.s.a. on children's clothing represented a net gain for the government because, of course, with one hand, the Tories gave an exemption for children's clothing and on the other hand they took away the mother's allowance, and the net result was that the mothers of the Province had less money to spend on their children than they had under the previous Liberal policy. Finance (Dr. Collins) - MR. STAGG: MR. ROBERTS: Cost of living - the Minister of (Inaudible). I beg your pardon? The member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) wants to say something and I will listen. Would he say it, Please? MR.

HODDER: The member for Stephenville. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), I am sorry. MR. STAGG: The cost of living (inaudible) industrial development. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I shall talk in due course about Tory industrial development and the shining gems which are represented by those projects which the gentleman from Stephenville endorses including the Lower Churchill, the Upper Churchill, the giveaway of the Linerboard mill, the gems in the crown, the general story of unblemished success which has been the Tory record.

But I was talking about cost of living and, of course, the Minister of Finance in his budget has done nothing to help with the cost of living except to 3 41 3 I • •

May 4, 1981 Tape 1229 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: introduce regressive taxes. We are now even given the pleasure of paying a percentage of what goes to the Government of Alberta. The other provinces, as they get their increased,take as the oil companies make their increased profits, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, thanks to the minister's beneficence are now given an opportunity to participate in a meaningful way: they now get to pay 22 per cent of whatever the grossly bloated, over-inflated price of oil is.

And, of course, now we know why this government wants to raise the price of oil and gasoline to world levels. They want to profit from the unfairly bloated costs, the grossly inflated costs. I am just thankful we have men like Allan MacEachen and Pierre Trudeau in Ottawa, because they are holding down the price. It is high enough, heaven knows, but it has not gone to world levels and it will be a long time before it ever gets there if they have their way. It would go tomorrow if the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) had his way. Hydro rates - well, we have seen the government's answer on hydro rates.

It carne a few days after the budget when the President, I believe the gentleman is, Mr. Victor Young of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro announced that they would be going for another increase, which of course will immediately be passed through to the customers. Unemployment - there is nothing in the budget that in any way touches the unemployment problem in any beneficial way. There is not a measure, not a suggestion, not a hope of anything to alleviate the unemployment.

There is a little boasting, but I will take that apart using the minister's own documentation to reveal that for the false and meretricious claim that in fact it is. 3414 l .

May 4, 1981 Tape 1229 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: And finally, the lack of services- of course, here the budget at least finally speaks with some truth and some veracity because it reveals something which the government can no longer hide, that this government are unable as well as unwilling to provide the people of this Province with the services which they need and the services which they deserve. I do not want to stand here for a couple of hours and simply slay the budget and slay the minister. That would be poor sport and the minister is just not up to that. I do not see any point in it.

I do not have any sadistic tendencies. I do not enjoy desporting with the minister - he comes ill-equipped to that kind of game - other than simply noting that the budget really does not address any of the economic issues, and in that it simply reflects the policy of this administration, a group of men and women who really h~ve no idea how to cope with the problems of this Province, and,furthermore, I think it is fair to say on the evidence we have, are not even aware of the problems of this Province.

How they, for example, could bring in a budget which has reference to the fishery without dealing with the major problems that confront the fishing sector of our economy, that escapes me. I know it escapes the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), but I can understand that. What I cannot understand is how it escapes the entire administration. They acknowledge the primary role which the fisheries play and then they avoiL or evade all mention of any of the problems and some of the possible and likely solutions. Now, my colleagues 3415 {,"-

May 4, 1981 Tape 1230 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: will be talking about aspects of the budget. I gather that we are going to be allowed to talk about the budget one day a week, is it? The government's plan is that they are going to - MR. HODDER: It starts this week. MR.

ROBERTS: It is going to be like Neapolitan ice cream now,it comes in different colours and different slices; and we are going to be allowed to talk about the budget one day a week, two days this week and one day a week thereafte4 and then we are going to talk abo~t something else on Tuesday and on Wednesday private members are going to be allowed to talk, and on Thursday we are going to hear about some­ thing else and on Friday something else, it is just a smorgasbord, and a very unfavourable smorgasbord. The government are that disorganized they cannot even keep their own act in order.

But as we are allowed to talk about the budget from time to time,my colleagues will deal with some of these aspects, The infamous 22 per cent tax. - MR. STAGG: Ho, ho, ho! MR. ROBERTS: Now it may not affect the gentleman for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). MR. STAGG: Talk to your buddy_t~e Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Rompkey) and his taxes. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I will gladly speak about the Minister of National Revenue a man who is not only a friend of mine, I am proud to say, but is a gentle­ man of humanity, irrudition, and compassion,all of which are factors completely unknown to the gentleman from Stephenville or the government which he endorses so whole­ heartedly. He may object to paying his taxes. 3416 ,,

May 4, 1981 Tape 1230 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS : I have found no fisherman who objected to paying his taxes. I know a great number who object to the way in which they are - MR. STAGG: Visit your district. MR. ROBERTS: I visit my district, Mr. Speaker, I will say to my friend for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), but not to practice law. He visits his, but only,I would venture 1 to practice law. I do my law here in St. John's. He does his out in Stephenville 1 which is his home,I guess, or if it is not his home at least it is now where he now resides. I think he is a native of some other community.

But the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Rompkey) is doing his duty according to the law, doing it with humanity, responsi~ely, and responsibily, equitably. And I am sure that no fisherman or no other taxpayer will be treated unfairly and I say that some three or four days after I had to write a cheque for the modest amount which the Government of Canada exacted from me. MR. STAGG: Talk about the Liberal gasoline tax. MR. ROBERTS: Yes,I will talk, Mr. Speaker, gladly about the Liberal gasoline tax - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh; MR.

ROBERTS: - far less than any other Tory gasoline tax, and now I will also talk about the Tory tax in this Province which, of course, is now a percentage. These f~llows now have a vested interested in driving the price up. Twenty-two per cent or what everybody else gets this crowd gets. There is just no mercy. I was reading the other night a biography of Peter the Great, not Brian ~he Great. 3 41 7 . ....

•j May 4, 1981 Tape 1230 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: There has been no biography written about Brian the Great. And there will certainly be none written about Frederick t!.'he Great in this House, but about Peter the Great,that giant in Russian history, and it was telling of what he did to some of his subjects fire knout­ or is it k-nout- was his treatment, and this is exactly what this government are doing now,fire and the knout in the form of a 22 per cent tax. Lashing it to the people, 22 per cent of the cost of gasoline. MR. HISCOCK: Indexing. MR. ROBERTS: Yes,it is indexinq, I say to my friend for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock). It is indexing with a vengence. It is regressive tax upon regressive tax. And I do not know where the mandarins in the Finance Department came up with this, but the minister I am sure welcomed it just as Peter the Great welcomed the spectacle. of a couple of thousand people being tortured with fire and the knout - or is it k-nout I do not k-now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Now if my friend for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) would restraint his natural impatience. I know that he is impatient. He has much to be impatient about.

He is warming the backbenches, Sir; if he were a chicken hatching eggs he would have flocks of them by now, he has been warming the backbenches that long. But let him control his impatience. Let him hope to rise on his merits. Let him not admit that he knows that he cannot rise on his merits. Instead of sitting on his merits 1 let him hope to rise on them. MR. STAGG: The :t,.oast - MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the roast was great. We had great fun at the roast for Bill Doody on Friday night. Your Honour has no recollections of it. 3418 ·""'"'

May 4 , 1981 MR'. STAGG: The same old insults . MR. ROBERTS: Tape 1230 PK - 4 Th~ s~~ old stori es. The same old insults. He should have heard his former Premier, Mr. t-1oores, who was as funny as he always is. Some of them were marvelous. I will not say what was told about the gentleman for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) because nothing was said about the gentleman for Stephenville. He was so utterly insignificant that even in that crowd of staunch supporters of Bill Doody1 some of whom are Tories and some of whom may or may not be, but they were all supporters of Mr. Doody and friends of his, Senator Doody, now gone to his eternal reward, the afterlife, 34 19

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1231 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: as he was the first to acknowledge in his very gracious remarks at the end. But I say to my friend from Stephenville, there was no mention made of him at all. And I realize that hurts him. MR. STAGG: An oversight. MR. ROBERTS: I would say to him, Sir, it was no oversight. It is impossible to overlook the gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg); He is like a large pat, a cow pat, in the middle of the patQ; one overlooks it at one's peril.

Now I have unlimited time, my voice is obviously in fine shape, and if the hon. gentleman from Stephenville wants to continue this game of wits, as best he can in his own humble way, I shall try to respond as best I can in my own humble way, but I am not so sure it is getting a great deal on with the Budget Speech. But I would say to him that we did not miss him on Friday night. It was entirely a pleasant evening. And there was no thought at all given to him. We did give some thought to the Minister of -what is he? MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: Labour,is it? Manpower.

Manpower, person power, that petulent pooh-pah the gentleman from Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn), and he was not there. AN HON MEMBER: Oh? MR. ROBERTS: He was supposed to sit next to me and I was wondering whether perhaps I had offended him because~ he is a man who stands upon his dignity. MR. HANCOCK: On a hunger strike. MR. ROBERTS: I did not know why he was not there but I must say it got a great laugh from this great Tory crowd when I said that he was not there and I understood he was on a hunger strike.

And that crowd of supporters of the Tory Party certainly agreed whole-heartedly with poking fun at the Minister of Manpower, but nobody paid any attention at all to the gentleman from Stephenville. 3420 ..

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1231 NM "" 2 MR. NEARY: What were you doing at a Tory fund raising function? MR. ROBERTS: I was there, I say to my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), to make it a success. And it was a success. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: We had the former - MR. NEARY: Was it $150 a plate? MR. ROBERTS: No, it was not $150 a plate, Sir. That is tomorrow night. But all the tickets for tomorrow night are sold. They are sold and most are even paid for. MR. NEARY: Every aristocrat and every - MR.

ROBERTS: Every aristocrat will be there and some who want to be aristocrats, and some who have been aristocrats, citizens all anxious to hear what the Prime Minister of the country is going to say. MR. STAGG: They are going to be there to be (inaudirle) upon. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I did not hea~ The gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) erupted ag.ain. What upon? MR. STAGG: All the aristocrats are going to be (inaudible) upon. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Stephenville often mystifies me, but this time he has mystified everybody else in the House as well, a very mystifying gentleman. Now, Mr.

Speaker, where was I before this? I have been in the House two or three years, I should not allow myself to be led astray by the likes of the gentleman from Stephenville, should I? AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. ROBERTS: I should save my ammunition for worthier targets like the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter}. Now there is somebody worthy of my metal. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ 3421

May 4 1 19.81 Tape No. 1231 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: There is a man, Sir, that any half- wit would be proud to do battle and destroy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Anyway, it is only my friend from Exploits, who has succeeded, my former - well still very much my friend, the former member for Twillingate, Mr. Gillett, who had a unique characteristic, my friend from LaPoile will remember the - MR. NEARY: Mostly we used to wonder whose side he was on. MR. ROBERTS: - the most unique characteristic. My friend from Exploits (Dr.

Twomey),who is faithful in his attendance on the House, and even appears to be listening most of the time. I commend him and credit him. Now, Sir, there are some good things in the budget. Let me get this out of the way very quickly. It will not take me long to say what they are. AN RON. MEMBER: Certain things. MR. ROBERTS: They are all listed in the highlights. Some of the highlights are pretty dim. You know, if this was the best the government can do well that in itself tells a tale. But we certainly welcome the good things that are there.

I think, for example,the new school for the deaf, something which is very much needed and we on this side are the very first to welcome the government's decision to go ahead with this long deferred project. It is too bad they could not also . go ahead, say ,with the residence over at the College of Trades and Technology that they promised seven or eight years ago. But that is another story, is it not? I think it is a good thing that they are goi.ng to build another Confederation Building here in St. John's, and they put $1 million aside. There is no doubt - MR. CARTER: Your hero made a mess of it. MR •.

ROBERTS: My friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter} has given forth with an explanation. It did not make any sense. Maybe he could try again. 3422

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1231 NM - 4 MR. CARTER: The hon. gentleman's hero, the former , former Premier certainly made a mess of this . MR. ROBERTS: I have many, many heroes and I have a very great admiration for Mr. Smallwood. I certainly do not agree with everything he did. He does not agree with every­ thing I do either. But a mess of this ConfederationBuildin g? Well,it is funny; if Mr . Smallwood made a mess of Confederation Building how come the Tories are emulating him some twenty-two or twenty-three years later? This bui~ding in fact is all but paid for now. It is now ours, free.

A~l we have to do is heat it and light it and insure it. The twenty-five year leasebacks­ are they called? -they are about over and done with now on this building . You would have to look at the foudation stone 3423 , ......

May 4, 1981, Tape . 1232, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: laid, by that great Canadian, Mr. st. Laurent, down by the front entrance. I believe it was 1959, was it? AN HON. MEMBER: Sornewnere around there . MR. ROBERTS: . 1g59 - 1960. Well, you know, we only have two or three years left now and our mortgaged horne, as Mr. James Greene used to call it, will be paid for. Knowing this government they will probably mortgage it again. But it is a good idea, I say to the . Minister of Finance(Dr. Collinsl, to try to cut out the rentals. The rentals are getting very expensive.

There are a lot of buildings, a lot of space around St. John's that is being rented by the government. And assuming it makes sense economically to rent - I am sorry, to take the, rents and to put them into the construction of a building and pay ourselves, pay rent to ourselves in effect, then I would be all for it. I assume the minister has a study. I would be very interested to have it tabled in due course. I think that is something that the House should see, but that is· a policy that we are quite prepared to endorse.

After all, it is only a Liberal Government policy that has once again been endorsed by the Tory Party. And some other good things too: The 10 per cent rise for the social assistance people is welcome; the foster homes rates being increased by 15 per cent is welcome. These are all commendable, Mr. Speaker, and we are. not so small, nor are we so biased that we would not welcome these. They are not enough, but they are better than nothing. The people on social assistance will now only be one or two percentage points behind. They are falling behind.

The least fortunate group in all society, the people who were forced to look to the government for the~r daily bread, are falling behind. And this 3424

May 4, ~98~, Tape- ~232, Page 2 ~ apb MR. ROBERTS: government have given then 10 per cent, the cost of living was 12 per cent or 12.5 per cent last year, these people are falling further and further behind and they have got little to give. But, Mr. Speaker, for what Lt is worth, we welcome it. T~re is an old saying that half a loaf is better than none. The Minister of Finance ~r. Collins} has now changed that to say a tenth of a loaf is better than none. There is a great deal more that could be said about the highlights, but in defference to common decency I will not say it.

Because, of course, I have picked on just about every beneficial and every useful thing that this government have announced in the budget. I do not think there ever has been one as barren. I do not ever think th.ere has been one as bare. But my concern is not specifically with the document itself. A number of my colleagues are going to speak and they will help to take it to pieces. We will be moving a motion of non~confidence. I probably will not, it may be one of my colleagues who follows me. But there will be a motion of non-confidence. I believe we are allowed one amendment to it as well.

I think we are allowed an amendment and a subamendment. So there will be a motion of non-confidence. And we will hear a great deal of tal~ about the budget document itself and what little it says about wliat is going on. But I want to talk about a different aspect; I want to talk about the budge .t, by which I mean the speech, the thirty-one pages of painful prose that the Minister of Finance delivered hi:mself of here in the House on whatever happy day it was the budget carne down, two or three weeks ago.

I am concerned with the. way in whi .ch thi.s government are running this · Province, or are attempting to run th.i.s · Province. 3425

M.ay 4, 1981, Tape 1232, Page 3 - apb .t-1R . TULK: Clnaudible). MR. ROBERTS: No • My friend from Fogo UMr. Tulk) says the government are. That is the correct use of the term, the government are. MR. TULK: (Inaudiole). MR. ROBERTS: The government are a plural group, they are a collective noun. When I talk of tha government as being- how many of them are there, seventeen or eighteen men and two women? r do not know how many there are, however many there are. I am concerned about the way the government are running this Province, or attempting to run it .

And tr~ budget is a very key document when we come to look at the way in which this government are handling the affairs of the government of this Province and the people that that government serves. The budget, much more so than the Throne Speech, which was a vacuous document to mark and surpass all vacuous documents, the budget and the supporting material and the contextual material 3426

May 4, 1981 • Tape No. 1233 DW - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: viewed in that context tell us a very great deal about the administration's thinking and about the strategy that they have adopted or fallen into­ and I am not sure which; I am not sure they know what they are doing so maybe they have fallen into it. Whether they have fallen into it or not or whether they have come to it bv design is really irrelevant. What concerns meisthe state of affairs it is and what we can do about it. In that sense, Mr. Speaker, the Budget Speech that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) brouaht in here is a sad document.

And I can find more pejorative words. I know a fair number of them. I have used some and I have had some used on me over the years. But I turned it over, I was not South unlike many members on both sides, so I had a chance to sit here and enjoy the St. John's weather, lovely weather. Jim McGrath has been out praying for fog. You would think a fellow who is trying to serve the people of St. John's would try to do something good for us would you not?- instead of praying for fog,but then again there are those who say that some live in a fog.

But the word I would find to describe the minister's Budget is it is a sao nnr.ument. It is the produce of a political mentality that is empty and sterile and it is capable only of confrontation and unreasoning and never ending stubbornness. It is not a document of a group of men and women who adhere to a policy, a planned policy or to a reasoned principle. is the document, the thoughts, the considered thoughts It of a group of men and women who really are at the end of their tether. They do not know how to handle the problems that are facing them. And so all they are doing now is 3~27

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1233 DW - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: reiteratinq stubbornly, as would a little child,the very few half-baked thoughts that they call their strategy. This government, Mr. Speaker, has been in office for two years. We are nearer to the next election than we are to the last. More than one half of this administration's term has gone. We are on the down­ hill slope, and a slippery slope it is. You know, I do not know when the nex~ election is going to come~ I doubt if anybody knows,including the Premier.

The Premier may well have - first of all, of course, it is entirely within his prerogative to decide when the election is to come. He has that right under our constitution, an untrammelled, an unbridled right to decide when the next general election will come. It must come by June of 1984, the five year period set down in our House of Assembly Act. But subject to that the Premier can decide. I doubt if he has made any decision and, of course, knowing the Premier he is as unpredictable - MR. G. WARREN: As the fog. MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, no,Fog,I say to my friend for Torngat Mountains,is predictable.

You can predict if the fog is not in, it is coming in. You cannot predict that with the Premier. I would not venture any predictions with the Premier. I think he is quite irrational at times, quite rash, quite capable of making decisions of moment without having thought them through. So I am not going to predict when he will call a general election. But it has be within the next two or three years and the odds are it will come within the next year and a half. So within a year and a half the people of this Province will have a chance to judge.

That really is the only good news I can find in this government's performance over the last couple of years. 3428

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1233 OW - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: They have been in office for two years now. It is time to take stock, to ask what they have accomplished and to ask where they are leading us. Their policy, t~e only policy of the Peckford adminis­ tration ,has been one of confrontation; constant,con­ tinuous, never-ending confrontation . They have never learned the value, never learned the supreme worth of those words that the prophet Isaiah used , ' Come,let us reason together ' . If ever there was a group of men who knew not how to reason butknew only how to confront.

Take for example this astonishing situation we have with these men and women who have been on strike at the College of Trades and at the WCB, the Worker ' s Compensation Board . They have been out now for seven months - is it? - at the Trades School and five at the MR . G. WARREN: Four . MR. E. ROBERTS: ~our, I thank my friend for Torn- gat Mountains (Mr. Warren), at the WCB . . It has cost 3429

May 4,1981 Tape No. 1234 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: the government untold thousands of dollars to keep those institutions going, And we have not yet had that figure, but when it comes out what the government have paid for scab labour- and that is the only word to describe it.

People have a lawful to croP~ picket lines but people who cross picket lines are scabs · - and a government that says as this crowd do that they endorse the principles of collective bargaining and then encourages scab labour,and I hear pays them outrageous rates- I do not know what is being paid them because the government, the great,open Peckford administration have not told us.But we will find out. If the government do not tell us the Auditor General will or the Public Accounts Committee will or one of those mysterious brown envelopes will arrive with the administration in it.

And of course the administration now have lost the confidence of their public servants so the results is it is as leaky as a sieve. How else do we find out things like who pays for certain trucking or does not pay? How else do we find out about the Agricultural Department ~urn? Obviously the brown envelopes. And in the age of the Xerox machine long may it last. And so, Mr. Speaker, we have got a government of confrontation and these workers go on strike. They are offered eight per cent.

Now you can dress it up anyway you want, but a cow that has calves in a:· china shop still has calves and not soup plates 1 and eight per cent is still eight per cent no matter how often the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) or the Minister of Manpower (Mr. Dinn) or anybody else says differently. So these people are forced out on strike. They are out for seven or eight months through the teeth of the Winter and by God they stick to it.

I do not always agree with everything that the labour movement does 1 and I do not always agree with what any individual union does 1 but you can only admire those men and those women, 3430

May 4,1981 Tape No. 1234 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: They stuck to it, they stuck to the picket lUesand I think I am fair in saying it was as peaceful a strike as we have ever seen in this Province. You have to admire them. They could not get their voice heard by the government, ministers refused to meet them, members refused to present petitions to the House but these men and women stuck to it. Finally they are driven to engage in a hunger strike. Now I do not have much sympathy for hunger strikes.

The kind of tragedy we are seeing now in - what is the name of that prison? - the Maze in Northern Ireland near Belfast where that man Sands is starving himself to death, I do not see any justification for that whether he is right in his cause or wrong in his cause, you know, there can be no law of God or man that justifies that. But these people on the negotiating team here have a hunger strike and they sit in and I guess it is fair to call it a publicity stunt. The Hinister of Manpower (Mr.

Dinn), the petulent pooh-ban ,as I called him, a man who is so conscious of his dignity that he does not do his job,calls it bhackmail. That is his reaction. I think he also called it a ~ie joke. You know,that shows the compassion and the feeling and the concern. This is the man - bad enough if he was the negotiator to feel that, but even the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) did not get that bad. This is the man, the Minister of Manp.ower (Mr. D!nn),who is the conciliator, whose job it is by law, as he kept reminding us.

Oh, and if ever there was a man, Sir, who stood on his prerogatives,stood on his privileges,it is the member from Pleasantville (Mr.Dinnl He is just about the most self-important man we have ever seen in this Province, just about the most self-important man we have ever seen. He is mightily impressed with the 3431 ..... {.~

May 4,1981 Tape No. 1234 AH-3 MR. ROBERTS: minister . As was once said of a man who was a minister many years ago, •L When he comes into the Rouse all he needs is his false teeth being borne in front of him on a velvet pillow like some mid-African potentate:' The petulent pooh - pah call s it blackmail. So these men and women,finally, 3432 .....

May 4, 1991 Tape 1235 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: after they had made their point in seven or eight days of subsisting on fruit juices and Coke and coffee, whatever it was they were taking, these people come back off their strike, negotiations come back, and I understand a settle­ ment has been achieved. I do not know if the vote has been completed yet, I would not want to predict what will happen, I hope it will be ratified and I hope the strike will be settled. I do not know - has it been announced what was in this package? AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR.

ROBERTS: Have any of my colleagues heard whether it has been announced what was in the NAPE package? I mean, I know what is in it. MR. STIRLING: It is not going to be announced. MR. ROBERTS: It is not going to be announced. Well, it will become public in due course. And I will say without any hesitation that the NAPE people have got a better deal than they had before they were forced by this government into a seven month strike and before they were forced into this hunger strike business, before they were forced into the position where I am told on the national television the Minister of Manpower's (Mr. Dinn'

s) uncle saw fit to take an almighty swipe at the Tory Party and the Premier leading the Tory Government. And "it just proves that the hon. member's uncle is a man of principle and commitment. So that is typical, is it not? A confrontation. We had a seven month strike that has cost the government thousands of dollars. Does the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) want to hazard a guess how much we have paid out in overtime and extra charges at either the Trades College or the W.C.B. owed? The W.C.B., they will say, 'It is not our money.' No, it comes out of the backs of the 3433 ..... ( ....

May 4, 1981 Tape 1235 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: employers of this Province, But it has to come out of somebody's pocket. All of that, Sir, when all is said and done, when the truth comes out that these strikes which this government's stubbornness has forced us into, not only cost the human suffering and the hardship of seven months on a picket line - MR. STAGG: Who gave them collective bargaining? MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? Who gave them collective bargaining? I know who gave them collective bargaining, this House dido ~ut now all I want to know is who is going to bargain collectively?

And I say to my friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) this government does not. This government mouths platitudes but do not honour principles. MR. HISCOCK: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Who was the government, I say to my friend from Stephenville, who forced men and women on a hunger strike? The Tories. MR. FLIGHT: Becaused they refused to bargain. MR. ROBERTS: Refused to bargain.

They made an offer of 8 per cent at the start and they stood by that until fir-ally, after a seven month strike, hundreds of hours of hardship on the picket lines and people doing without jobs, thousands upon thousands of dollars spent in overtime to scab labour - MR. STAGG: (Inaudible)~ollective. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, we gave collective bargaining to fishermen, the Liberals did, and not only that, they honoured it. But as for the Tories, just like the gentleman from Stephenville, they mouth platitudes but do not honour principles.

And anybody who talks about collective bargaining and the Tory Party is going to have to try to square that with what this government have done. 3434

May 4, 1981 Tape 1235 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: The teachers are out saying they, the government, have bargained in bad faith, and so they have. NAPE were saying they are bargaining in bad faith, the nurses are saying they are bargaining in bad faith. You know, their troubles are far from over, I am afraid, on labour relations. But we are talking about a confrontation policy. We are talking about the results of it.

And the labour strike, the strike by these men and women at the College and at the w.c.B. is a glaring and a graphic example of what is wrong with the Tories, what is wrong with their policy, what is wrong with the way they are trying to run this Province. They do not know how to govern, they do not know how to negotiate, they do not know how to conciliate, they do not know how to lead. All they know how to do is to confront - stubborn little children. And the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) epitomizes that and this budget epitomizes it in words just as the administration of which he is such a proud part epitomizes in actions, the administration which the gentleman from Stephenv .ille (Mr. Stagg) supports so unblindly and so unthinkingly. MR. STAGG: MR. ROBERTS: unthinkingly. MR. STAGG: MR. ROBERTS: Blindly: Blindly, I am sorry, and Now, Mr. Speaker - (Inaudible). Where there is no vision the people perish, I say to my friend from Stephenville, and he should know. Now, Mr. Speaker, the government will doubtless tell us they stand on principle. They fight for Newfoundland and Labrador.

And I can hear it now. We will get a parade of them standing up trying to curry favour, trying to heave it out as best they can. 3435 (,•

May 4, 1981 Tape 1235 EC - 4 MR. ROBERTS: Let us look at the r esults of their fighting policy. They are fighting with the teachers, they are fighting with the public service, they are fighting with the nurses, they are fighting with the hospital workers , they are fighting with the fish companies, they are fightin g with the Fishermen's Onion, they are fighting with other provinces and , of course, they are fighting with Ottawa. Is there anybody in this Province, anybody in this country, that the Tory Government are not fighting with? Who have they conciliated? Who are they not fighting with? Who 1 anywhere in this country? 3436

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1236 MR. WARREN: Premier Lougheed. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Lougheed, the Premier of Alberta, my friend from Torngat nominates Mr. Lougheed. Of course they are not fighting Mr. Lougheed, they are borrowing money from him and they are saying;Raise the price of oil to help Alberta,' Now, God bless Alberta. SD - 1 Boy 1 I would like to be the provincial treasurer in Alberta and so would the gentleman from St. John's South, the present Finance Minister (Dr. Collins) . Let us 'see now, they have no sales tax in Alberta, we pay 11 per cent. They have no gasoline tax and we pay 22 per cent.

That is what?- seven or eight cents a litre now,is it? Their provincial income tax is one half, it is twenty three as opposed to fifty-eight, less than a half of ours. Now there budget, they have a problem; they have no municipal debts. Before the election a year or so ago Mr. Lougheed gave out a couple of billion dollars that wiped out the municipal debts so their municipal taxes are low. And they do have a budgetary problem, they have this fund called the Heritage Fund, it has $6 or $7 billions in it, it is going up hundreds of millions a month and they do not know how to spend it.

Now they lend us a little, and bless them. But what else has Alberta done? And this crowd across the House, Mr. Speaker, wa~t to see - now I have nothing against Alberta, nothing against British Columbia, nothing against anywhere,but I would like to see a government here that is concerned with this Province. MR. STAGG: You have friends in Alberta? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I have friends in Alberta, which is more than I could say for my friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg).

And I have friends in British Columbia and Saskatchewan and Ontario and Manitoba and New Brunswick and Quebec and Nova Scotia and the two territories,which 3437 ~.

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1236 SD-2 MR. ROBERTS: is more than I can say for my friend from Stephenville. I even have friends in Stephenville, which is more than I can say for my friend from Stephenville. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the government are fighting with everybody. MR. HANCOCK: The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) finally woke up. He will not go to a meeting with provincial ministers, he cannot handle them. MR. ROBERTS: The confrontation policy, you know, we are rowing with everybody. We have had two years of the Peckford administration's leadership and what we have - MR.

STAGG: (Inaudible) and still be leader. MR. ROBERTS: I would rather be where I am the way I got here than where the hon. gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is the way he got where he is, any­ time. I would rather be where I am than where he is. On the other hand, he has got the advantage, he can get to look at me while in turn I have to look at him, so he is ahead on that score. Let us look briefly at some of the results of this confrontation policy. Let us look first of all at the labour scene because that is, I am sure , causing the minister concern; it ought to. The teachers about 'to strike.

We hope they will not, maybe they will not, but they are, I understand,conducting a strike vote this week, MR. LUSH: Wednesday. MR. ROBERTS: Wednesday. I understand their executive are recommending that they vote in favour of a strike and they have, the executive, I believe, or the President has said publicly that the government have been bargaining in bad faith. So much for the Tory commitment to collective bargaining. They mouth the principle, mouth it as a platitude, but do not honour it in reality. The government have offered them 9 per cent; now we all know 3438

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1236 SD - 3 MR. ROBERTS: the government will offer more. The teachers in this Province, Mr. Speaker, when they settle their agreement-and they will settle it sooner or later - will get more than 9 per cent from this government. So why are we being forced, why are the people of this Province going to be forced to undergo even the threat of a strike? We may be forced to live through the reality of a strike, but this government's stubborn, unyielding, unthinking, unreasoning, arrogant, uncaring AN HON. MEMBER: Vicious. MR.

ROBERTS: - no they are not vicious; they do not have the guts to be vicious. MR. STAGG: Fearless. MR. ROBETTS: No,they are not fearless, they fear- some. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: And most of us are fearful when we see what this government is doing but they are not fearless, no. They are not fearless,far from it. Reckless, feckless, but not fearless. I do not pretend to know the merits of the teachers'negotiations, I do not pretend to know whether the teachers should get 9 per cent or 10 per cent or 11 per cent or 12 per cent or 15 per cent. I have not the least idea.

I do know that the process by which the government have been negoti~ting is flawed. I do know that the teachers have said the government is acting in bad faith, I do know the Premier was afraid to face the teachers in Gander, afraid. Imagine a Premier as fearless as our Premier allegedly is, afraid to go to Gander to speak to a group of teachers at the NTA Convention. AN HON. MEMBER: bombed out. The Minister of Education went and 3439

May 4, l98J . , Tape l237, Page J. - apb MR. ROBERTS: The !llini:ster of Education (Ms. Vergel showed up and even the CBC said it was lukewar~ applause. AN HON. MEMBER: back to the House. MR. ROBERTS: She will not even come she has not been back in the House since, one of my colleagues reminds me. MR. STAGG: MR. ROBERTS: Neither has anyone else. Some of us are here now. I think the gentleman from StephenvillefMr. Staggl is here although . th.ere is some argument against that. MR. STAGG: (Inaudiole}. MR. ROBERTS: That is fine~ I do not see the mini:ster.

If the mini:ster is in the Province and not in the House, then she is in breach of the rules of the House, is she not? Now,let us talk ·- that is about the teachers. You know, they will get more than 9 per cent. We all know that, just as we all knew the workers at the CTT and the WCB would get more than 9 per cent, and yet the government, led by the petulant pooh .-bah from Pleasantville(Mr. D.innl. insisted upon making those men and women go through a seven month strike. MR. STAGG: MR. ROBERTS: MR. STAGG: MR. ROBERTS: Unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker. It is not unparliamentary. It is unparliamentary.

What I am thinking is unparliamentary because I am thinking about the man from Stephenville. What I am saying is not, because I am talking about the gentleman from Pleasantville. And to call a man a pe.tulant pooh-bah is not unparliamentary. It is· unpleasant, but it is true and accurate. In his conduct of his office he has shown himself to be the petulant pooh-bah, a miniscule Mikado. 3440

May 4, l9Bl, Tape l237 1 Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Now let us talk anout the public service: The police force in St. John's -in turmoil. In turmoil! We nave talked about the strikes. What about the rest of the people paid out of the public chest - the nurses, the hospital workers, the x-ray workers? MR. HANCOCK: It is going to ne a lot more serious, I will tell you, than it is right now. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. I say to my· friend from St. Mary's - the Capes (Mr. Hancock), that he is ri.ght on. The real labour negotiati.ons are ahead of this government yet . MR. HANCOCK: teachers. MR.

ROBERTS: A lot more serious than the The hospital workers, the CUPE and NAPE locals in the. hospitals, the nurses, t~ x-ray and laboratory technologists, they are all looking for considerably more than the government is prepared to offer and the government will not even talk t~ them. MR. HANCOCK: They sent St. Clare •·s a letter this week saying that their budget is cut by 40 per cent. I have not seen i.t, but I have been told about it. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from St. Mary's - The Capes says that St. Clare's has been told the.ir budget has been cut 40 per cent. MR. HANCOCK: Not lO per cent, 40 per cent. MR.

ROBERTS : I di.d not know it was that deep but I knew that ever y hosp.ital in the Province wa-s going to have to cut back s·ervices, and the government have . not the courage to admit .it. MR. HANCOCK: 40 per cent LinaudihleL. MR. ROBERTS: It is go:Lng to mean staff lay- offs, closures of beds. The hospitals - I do not know, bu~ I would like to see the letter to St. Clare~s - are being told to cut back. 3441

May 4, l98l, Tape l237, Page 3 -- apb MR. HANCOC·K: 4 a per cent (.i:naudible l I was told by a nurse who saw tlie letter. MR. ROBERTS : The universi .ty has been told to cut back, the President has· spo~en out. MR. HANCOCK: You cannot cut back on health services, no forty per cent. MR. ROBERTS·: You cannot cut back on health services, y ou are right, but this government are going to. But the government have seen nothing yet. We are in for a long, hot Summer, when we come to talk about labour negotiations. And what affects me particularly, is that th.e government are poisoning the well before they even go to it.

We are heading into these negotiations with_ the labour movement poisoned against this government, poisoned because of this government's actions, poisoned because of the minf.ster's refusal to bargain responsibly and responsively. You know, you do not have to be a specialist in labour relations matters. I, for one, am not. But you do not have to be a specialist to know that this government does not bargain in good faith. They make their opening offer and that is it; intransigent, stubborn. And we saw seven months of a strike.

And they got the - I do not know what the NAPE workers will get, but I will say they have got more now than before they went on strike, and I wi.ll say · they got it because they went on a linnger strike, and I will say the.y got i.t because they stood on those picket lines · for seven months and becaus ·e the people of this Province stood by them. I had people in my district who are living on social services- social whatever it is called, the pensions from - the old welfare money- say to me that they can give us lO per cent, how come they can only give those strikers 8 per cent?

Because the strikers, many of them, are earning less than people are getting on welfare. You cannot argue with_ that, you cannot counter that, because that is true. And this is the atmosphere that our 3442 I •

May 4, l9.8l, Tape ~237 , Page 4 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: our administration's confrontation process has broug~t us to. Tfiey do not know how to run the country. MR. HANCOCK: The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} says other groups have accepted 8 per cent. MR . ROBERTS: Yes . MR. HANCOC~: MR. ROBERTS: What was their wage scale? ·Yes, the Minister of Finance is a man who says many things, and he say s what he believes. If only he understood what he said we would all he further ahead. Now, the government say they have no money. That is tile reason they put forward, 3443

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1238 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: but,you know,they have not convinced a soul of that. This governrnent'have made no effort to show the people of this Province that they are trimming the garment. We still see the growth in the Public Service. We still see new jobs being created. We still see the bloated bureaucracy. We still see ministers - you know something as small, as significant,as symbolic as ministers travelling first class. You know,we still see that. We still see the Premier - MR. MORGAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: - travelling first class. The hon.

Minister of Fisheries - There is nobody over there - - the hon. Minister of Fisheries is not first class 1 I agree with him. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: first class. MR. TULK: Hear, hear! But there are ministers who travel What about Toronto and Ottawa? MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, we also have something again as small. but as symbolic as the only Province in Canada that provides the Premier with an official residence at our cost. MR. FLIGHT: A security guard. MR. ROBERTS: It is not very expensive.

It is only a couple of a hundred thousand dollars a year maybe, when you add in the maids, the security guards, the heat, the light - MR. HANCOCK: I am sure it comes to a lot - MR. ROBERTS : the Premier a place to live. MR. TULK: · MR·. ROBERTS: When you take in the renovations - and all that, and I do not begrudge Spent 120 grand on it last year. But I will say no other Province in Canada, no other Province in Canada - I am sorry - MR. MORGAN: It might be the hon. gentleman's home one day, who knows? 3444

May 4, 1981 Tape NO. 1238 PK- 2 MR. ROBERTS: It might be my horne, but I will tell you this, it will never be paid for by the Province if it is my horne. And I would hope that any Liberal Premier and the next Liberal Premier and all who wilJ . follow after him will turn that place into anything except a horne for the Premier. Make it a horne for homeless girls, make it a residence or a group home for children, make it a tou~ist horne. I do not care what vou do with it. · MR. HANCOCK: You would not get (Inaudible) • MR.

ROBERTS: But there is no other Premier in Canada, you know, no other Premier in Canada for whom - MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: MR. ROBERTS: That is right. - his province provides accommodation. :ri: qoes with his ego. Emperor. Pay expenses when a man travels, of course, pay entertainment of course. I mean that is all­ MR. TULK: Empire Brian. MR. ROBERTS: -legitimate. The Prime Minister of Canada is provided with a residence, the Leader of the Opposition in Ottawa is provided with a residence, but there is no other politician in Canada at any level provided with a residence out of public funds.

AN RON. MEMBER: It goes with his ego. MR. ROBERTS: Now,I know it is not very much money. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} said, what does it cost a year, a couple of hundred thousand to run Mount Scio house? That is the most. I mean there are five security guards, a maid, a housekeeper, - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS : to. AN HON. MEMBER: Did he answer you? No he does not answer, he is not allowed He is not allowed to. 3445 {.~

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1238 MR. ROBERTS: - a maid, a housekeeper, a couple of gardeners, the like, it might be a couple of hundred thousand a year, I do not know. It is not in itself going to solve the financial problems of this Province, but I do say to the minister - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) years. MR. ROBERTS: - that it is awfully hard to try to PK - 3 make men and women who get take home pay of $145 and $150 a week believe that they are being treated justly in that kind of atmosphere. MR. HANCOCK: Fill up some of the potholes. MR.

ROBERTS: You know,we are heading into these labour negotiations now with a poisoned atmosphere, and the minister and his colleague have done it. I do not think they know what they are doing, but I am afraid we are all going to have to pay the price. AN HON. MEMBER: \ The minister (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: You know we are going to get - the teachers are going to get more than 9 per cent. There is no question about that. There is no question at all they will get more than that. The nurses - AN HON. MEMBER: How long (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Yes, and what turmoil and what price do we all pay?

I marked down some words to describe the government, you know, inflexible, arrogant, uncaring, unreasonable, and those are polite words. The budget, you know, reflects that, the budget reflects that all the way through. It offers us no leadership. AN HON. MEMBER: Callous. MR. ROBERTS: It has got no strategy, no way out. All it does is the same old pie in the sky we have been hearing 3446

May 4, 19.81 Tape No. 1238 PK ~ 4 MR. ROBERTS: now for years. What is that old hymn, There Will Be Pie In The Sky By And By? It was an IWW hymn, remember? IWW song, There Will Be Pie In The Sky By And By. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: That is the church (Inaudible) . And that is the Tory slogan. No present reality , just down the road. We have been hearing that now for years. We heard that ten years, ago did we not,in that infamous March 1 Throne Speechr And they have one other answer, Mr. Speaker, they blame it all on Ottawa, fed bashing.

That is the two points of the Tory strategy, pie in the sky and fed bashing. And the budget, the speech of the Finance Minister epitomizes it, summarizes it and exposes it. MR. TULK: Brian !:l Fancy. MR. ROBERTS: You know, fed bashing is an old and an honoured sport in Canada. All sorts of politicians have bashed the feds over the years, sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. Maybe you can even win an election on it once in a while. I do not know. But I say to this government that their policy of bashing the feds, and after --.all that is their policy- 3447 .....

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1239 ow - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: when you strip away the words and the rhetoric and you look at the flesh and the bones, that is the policy, bash the feds! I could find a dozen references in the minister's speech, I could find a dozen more in the Throne Sneech. it is all Ottawa's fault. There is fog, the weather is federal! It is bad enough 'McGrath' prays for fog, may he be forgiven, the Prime Minister will get here anyway. But if there is fog it is the Prime Minister's fault, if there is not enough fish it is Ottawa's fault, if there is too much fish that is Ottawa's fault too.

If we have the budworm that is Ottawa's fault, if we do not have the budworm well,Ottawa is keeping it away from us. Everything is Ottawa's fault~ No roads because it is Ottawa's fault, too many roads in some areas, that is Ottawa's fault too. It is a feeble excuse for a policy, a refuge for men and women who cannot cope. They are not able to think through the policy, they are not able to think through their problems, they are not able to find rational and coherent and effective answers. MR. F. STAGG: Devastating. MR. E. ROBERTS: Yes, it is devastating. The truth shall make ye free the Bible says.

And even my friend for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) will be made free with the truth. My friend for Stephenville, Sir, ought to remember the advice I was once given by an old gentleman,since gone to his reward and since he was a Liberal he has gone up to his reward 1 a gentleman then living in Northeast Crouse, a fisherman,and he once said to me, you know, he said, 'You politicians' - and I give this as good counsel to my friend for Stephenville -he said, 'You politicians are like fish'. and I said, 'I do not understand you, Sir'. 'Well', he said, 'you only get in trouble when your mouths are open'. And 3448

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1239 DW - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: I say that to my friend for Stephen- ville (Mr. Stagg) because he epitomizes it. You know the policy of bashing the feds is really just a refuge for men and women who cannot cope and they cannot cope. It is an attempt to evade responsibility. It is the oldest game in the book. If you cannot handle what you have at horne you blame the guy outside. MR. F. STAGG: Why are the feds bashing us? MR. E. ROBERTS: Feds bashing usJ The feds, I say to my friend for Stephenville, are not bashing us.

It is only his paranoia and the Premier's paranoia, petulant as it is,that leads anybody to believe we are being bashed. We are not getting everything we want nor does any child. The member has a number of children and I am sure he is a good father to them and I am sure he does not give them everything they want and I am sure when he does do that they stamp their feet and that sounds exactly like the Premier. You could not have a better description of our Premier. In fact, you could not have a better descrip­ tion of the hon. gentleman for Stephenville. They have no solutions to our troubles.

The Budget is an admission, it is a sad, dispiriting document. MR. J. CARTER: (Inatidible) MR. E. ROBERTS: No, I am not speaking of a speech made by my friend for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) 4 No, I am not 1 I am speaking of the Budget. And I would say to my friend for St. John's North,now that he has again honoured us with his presence, ineffable, inimitable his presence, I would say, Sir, that the Budget is a sad and dispiriting document. MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible) 3449 ..

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1239 DW - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: Yes, then, the hon. gentleman, Sir, heard better th~~ he has often said. You know, there is a very old adage said by that very wise English person - we must be liberated - Dr. Johnson, Dr. Samuel Johnson who once said, among other things, that patriotism is the '.,last refuge of the scoundrel. lnd if I was writing an epitaph for this government - MR. B. TULK: Which you will. MR. E. ROBERTS : I will have a hand in it,I say to my friend for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), so will he and so will hundreds of thousands of Newfoundlanders.

If I were writing an epitaph that is one that I would engrave upon their political tombstones, 'Patriotism is the last refuge Of the SCOUndrel 1 • ,BeCaUSe their WhOle philOSOphy 1 Sir, is to attack - not to analyze - but to attack. Do not reason! They rant . and rave instead of reason.Above all they do not negotiate. MR. J. CARTER: Who is ranting now? MR. E. ROBERTS: Who is ranting? I am not ranting. If my friend would keep quiet I could speak in an even quieter voice. I would say to my friend for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) that he has been a Tory for so long he does not know ranting when he sees it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the whole philo­ sophical bent of this administration as revealed in this Budget can be summed up in Dr. Johnson's phrase, 'Patrio­ tism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'. Politically, Sir, the gentlemen opposite are the scoundrels - the ladies and gentlemen opposite are scoundrels 3450

May 4, 1981 Tape 1240 EC - 1 MR. POWER: (Inaudible) are scoundrels. MR. ROBERTS: - are scoundrels. politically they are scoundrels. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from - Ferryland (Mr. Power) may not think he is a political scoundrel. I would say to him, Sir, that he is a political scoundrel. MR. NEARY: A pray-man and a rogue. MR. ROBERTS: People, Sir, are circling upwind of the hon. the gentleman from Ferryland. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

ROBERTS: And he may think it is so they can look at his best profile from the rear, but it is not, Sir, it is that politically he is a scoundrel, that the aroma of political scoundrelism emanates from him, wafts forth. MR. WOODROW: (Inaudible) • MR. ROBERTS: Can one picture the gentleman from Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) wafting forth? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: I can. I have no trouble in seeing my friend from Bay of Islands wafting forth, wafting forth in a politically scoundrelly f~shion. MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Scurrilous personal attacks, Mr.

Speaker, it is not scurrilous, it is not personal, but it is an attack. And my defence, Mr. Speaker, is truth, because what I say is true, that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel and that this administration has no answer for the troubles and problems and the opportunities in this Province except to bash the feds, blame it all on Ottawa. No matter what our troubles, blame it on Ottawa, no matter what it is, something as entirely provincial in the Constitution as the provision of 3451

May 4, 1981 Tape 1240 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: a penitentiary; one of the items that the Fathers of Confederation in their wisdom decided was the responsibility of the provincial governments was the provision of penitentiaries, and when somebody gets after the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) he obfuscates and the point of his obfuscation is it is all the fault of Ottawa. And I could go on. Any questioning, any debate, any response - and I say this to my friend from Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) because he again, lives by this creed, produces simply an ad hominem attack, a personal attack, a questioning of one's integrity, a questioning of one's motives, a questioning of one's Newfoundland and Labrador patriotism. Where does it get us? Well, it gets us in an endless series of rows with the Government of Canada - other than the gentleman from Ferryland (Mr. Power) who has learned the merits of a conciliatory approach, and as a result, he stood by his principles. The member for Ferryland realizes, as do those of us on this side, you do not have to sell your principles to negotiate a deal. True!

Now, if only he could extract that serum and innoculate all of his colleagues with it, we might get somewhere. You know, it is possible to negotiate without giving up one's position. The Minister of - what is it called these days? AN HON. MEMBER: Forest Resources and Lands. MR. ROBERTS: Forest Resources and something else -Forest Resources. Now, that was last week. What is it this week? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. POWER: MR. ROBERTS: Oh, oh! The Premier has not told him yet. Has not changed? Okay.

But the hon. gentlemen's titles are a little like a certificate of virginity in courts, of no value if it is dated yesterday. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3452

May 4, 1981 Tape 1240 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: But the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, (Mr. Power) to give him his full and correct title - AN HON. MEMBER: And Lands . MR". ROBERTS: No, not Lands - is it? MR. MARSHALL: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON . MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: Forest Resources and Lands. Forest Resources and Lands. Oh, yes. Forest Resources and Lands. This Land is our Land. Forest Resources and Lands. That has a nice ring to it, a nice ring to it. You can really click your heels to that, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. How about lands and forest resources?

Or how about land resources and forests? Yes, it really is the Department of Forestry, is it not? Yes. But, I mean, you see, the hon. gentleman may get to be Premier some day, stranger things have happened to him and others, and he will learn from his two predecessors, the present Premier and the former Premier, Mr. Moores, that if you do not have any solution to any of the problems,you reorganize the government and you shuffle the departments around. You do not reduce the number of ministers, you increase them usually, and you put new titles on the departments and that passes for action.

You know, we went through it with Mr. Moores. We spent - what did we spend, twenty minutes one day re-organizing nine ftepartments in the House. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. ROBERTS: And it took the Premier six months to - restructuring, it was called. And, you know, the Premier and a bottle of whiskey could have done a better job than was done. Anyway, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, if I - have I now got it correct? - MR. NEARY: Yes. MR.. ROBERTS : I thank him. I want to pay due honour to him - has succeeded in negotiating a deal with the 3453

May 4 , ~981, Tap e 1240 , Page 4• - - apb MR.. ROBERTS : feds and , I suggest, and he will concur that he has done it without se1linq his principles or those of ~is colleagues, be has done it wit hout any offence to the policies which he endorses and which he tries to enforce . Now, if only his other colleagues ' 3454

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1241 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: would realize that 1 we would not be in a situation where we have no DREE agreements on roads, none, not one, not any. MR. FLIGHT: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: money. MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. POWER: negotiated by (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: MR. POWER: negotiated by (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: And no Trans-Canada agreement. No Trans-Canada highway agreement. You would wonder why we have no No Trans-Canada highway agreement. It is shocking. It is shocking, shocking. In reality DREE agreements are I am sorry?

In reality DREE agreements are In reality DREE agreements are negotiated by officials as the minister would agree. But the minister has got to learn that officials - the minister stands in relation to officials as oats do to the horse. It is the oats that make the horse go and it is the minister that makes the officials go. If he has not learned that then he ought not to be a minister. MR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: What about the snake,'Trudeau'? Pardon? What about the snake 'Trudeau'?

Now,there is a statesmanlike utterance, "What about the snake 'Trudeau'?" That is a really statesmanlike utterance from the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter), the man who does not believe in personal attacks. You know, 'the snake Trudeau', a man who has been elected Prime Minister of this country four times - is it? - or five, a man who has served in Parliament for fifteen years. You know,that stands,of course,for- typical, is it not,'the snake Trudeau'? I mean,it is not even worthy of an answer because to answer that you would have to 3455 (,

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1241 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: stoop as low as the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) has stooped. I am not capable of going that low and I am certainly not prepared to. Now,we have no Trans-Canada ~ighway agreement, do we? You know fed bashing, a great sport. We have no agreement because, why? Because the feds have told us to indicate our priorities and we are refusing to do it.

I have a cutting here that says, "The Federal Minister of Transport wants the Province to indicate to him their priorities for development, a request which the provincial Transportation Minister - at that stage it was the member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett) - says it has put the department in something of a bind. 'They want to know where we want the thrust; the minister said. But he pointed out - and he has refused to negotiate priorities~ AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: iinaudible) • Pardon? Talk to (inaudible). Talk to whom? The feds. Mr.

Speaker, the government have refused to negotiate a Trans-Canada highway agreement. They have refused to negotiate a DREE agreement. Offshore, again they have refused to negotiate an agreement. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS : That is right, they have. And I will deal with that a little later and I hope my friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) who is an able counsel, an able practitioner at the bar of this Province, if only he would resolve the Barry issue - and that is not a pun. AN HON. MEMBER: Rejected. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes,lots of people rejected the hon. gentleman for Stephenville and there will be more to come. 3456 ' .

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1241 IB-3 MR. ROBERTS: On the constitution, again our administration here has distinguished themselves. I will talk some more about that because I feel very strongly. But you wonder whether there is not a better way to do things or are we doomed to fight and fight and fight? MR. CARTER: (inaudible) • MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) and give him time That is by far the funniest thing the gentleman for St. John's North has said in the lo..-::f time. I wonder who wrote it for him. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaubible). MR. ROBERTS: If so he should get a new speech writer. MR.

STAGG: I would like to hear the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). He and I together make (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I agree and I say to my friend from Stephenville that he will hear the member for LaPoile again and again and again and again and it will do him good to hear the member for LaPoile. Now, what I was saying: I want to know from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) whether he can find a better way than the way he has outlined in his budget this policy of confrontation, this policy that is no policy. You know there is a very easy answer, there is a cheap, shoddy answer.

We will have it shortly from the gentleman for St. John's North. He will pretend that New­ foundlanders are not Canadians, that somehow our interests in this Province are different from those of the country of which we are a part. And he will accuse us of capitulating, those of us on this side who say that negotiation is a preferable policy to confrontation. All that shows is the poverty of the principles and the paucity of the policy of 3457

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1241 IB-4 MR. ROBERTS: those who put forth such claptrap. You know, Mr. Speaker, we are Canadians. The gentlemen opposite may not realize that. It does not conflict with our being Newfoundlanders and Labradorians,but it certainly ought to be a policy guiding any legislature in this country, any legislature that represents the people of this country, any government that tries to serve the people of this country. We have legitimate quarrels with Otta\'la . We should stand up for Newfoundland but we shou l d never forget,! say to the Finance Minister (Dr.

Collins) , never forget that our goal in this county has got to be a strong Newfoundland and Labrador within a strong Canada . And it is in the interest of all of us in this Province to have a strong federal government. MR . NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: It is in the interest of us all . And if the policy of this administration is designed to try to weaken the government, to weaken the ability of the Government of Canada to serve all Canada including us,it 3458

May 4, 1981 MR. ROBERTS: province. MR. HANCOCK: MR. ROBERTS : Tape No. 1242 IH - 1 is not in the best interests of this Too many anti-confederates over there. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is the govern- ment, whose Premier is an articulate and a thoughtful spokesman. Nobody ever accused the Premier of being in articulate, incoherent sometimes, yes, but not in articulate. Nobody ever accused him of < not being thoughtful. The product of his thought is often con­ fused but he is a thoughtful gentleman, and an articulate one. He believes that Ottawa is an agency of the Provinces.

He genuinely believes that and I think the Minister of Finance shares that. They genuinely view Canada as being a country made up of ten separ­ ate provinces that have, for certain very limited purposes, got a sort of common embassy up in Ottawa. I view Canada, as I say to my friend from St. John's North (J. Carter), as being one " country in which the French and the English both have a place and .in which we as N~wfoundlanders take our place. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: That is why-that is how I view Canada, with one government and ten provinces and each of them within its own sphere. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: North - MR. HANCOCK: MR. ROBERTS: he is saying that. MR. R. MOORES: Hear, hear! But I say to my friend from St. John's Is he saying he is not for Canada? Oh, he is not for Canada, of course He never was. MR. ROBERTS: I say to my friend from St. John's Norht that Newfoundland and Labrador is far better off because we are part of Canada than if he had his way, far better off. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: And I say we will be far better off when we have a strong federal government - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! 3459

May 4,1981 Tape No. 1242 I R - 2 MR. ROBERTS: -than we will from having the kind of federal government that the Tory Party in this Province want. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Nc question, no question at all. MR. F. ROWE: How would he feel about the provincial governrnent,municifralities? MR. ROBFl'l~ Yes, that is a very good thought, I say to my f~iend from ~~inty Bay de Verde. You know, we see I this approach of the p.-ovinces 1 the agency of the provinces really very clearly on the constitution.

T am unable to grasp how this government can espouse a policy which will see a checker­ board across Canada. Now,they are not going to get away with it. I do not know what the Supreme Court in Ottawa is going to rule, I believe , it will rule in favour of the federal side but I like anybody else will await the decision. But our Premier, our Premier, and this Minister of Finance . - and the budget reflects every word of it, the budget reflects this as its very pith and essence­ want to see a Canada that is a checkerboard in which your rights depend on where you live. And I cannot think of anything, Mr.

Speaker, more destructive not just to this Country- but if they want to be so xenophobic, so chauvinistic as to think only of this Province, I cannot think of anything more destruct­ ive to this Province than that philosphy tha-~: the Tory's espouse. And if I was not against this budget for any other reason, I would be against it for that reason. This government's policy is folly, is sheer folly: They pretend ·the provinces are equal, provinces are not equal, ~eople are! That is what this country is about SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, we cannot. give away what we do not own.

Only the Tory Government can do that.They take what the.y do not own, they can give it away to. SOME HON , MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: You know, Mr. Speaker, the philosphv o ~ this governrnent,the fed bashing, the whole con­ frontation policy - 3460

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1243 RA - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: that is what the budget is all about, that is what the first three or four paqes talk about, that is what the theme of it is -fed bashing,blame it on Ottawa. We cannot cope with it, it is not our fault, it is not our fault, it is the fault of the dirty feds.' That is all that the Minister of Finance says in his budget. That,Sir, is just a cloak for those who would dismember Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

ROBERTS: You know, it was our Premier who said on national t:elevision that;Prime Minister, I have heard your version of Canada and I have heard the version of Monsieu~_ Levesque a~d of the two,I prefer his.' MR. WHITE: . _And Jean .CI.e±ien .. alrnost thr-ew--up. MR. HODDER: And he was trying to se~arate. MR. ROBERTS: And Rene Levesque an• avowed committed separatist. At least Rene Levesque has got the intellectual fibre, the intellectual integrity to ad­ mit he is a separatist- MR. R. MOORES: Right. MR. ROBERTS: -unlike the weasel words which emanated from our Premier afterwa~ds.

Ottawe is an agency of the Provinces. I prefer Levesque's vision of Canada to Trudeaus. That is the philosophy of this government and it shows in its budget and . this honourable crowd of men and women,Sir, would rather have a feeble~emasculated federal government not realiz- ing what that does to Newfoundland and Labrador, not real­ izing that whatever hope we have in this Province of getting what is ours,of getting the standard of living which is ours by right · as Canadians,that the only hope we have comes 3461

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1243 RA - 2 MR . ROBERTS: from being a part of a strong Canada - MR. MOORES: MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) - and the 9udget reveals the government's policy fully. They are leading us to disaster. The minister does not think so and I do not expect him to think so, but they are leading themselve~ us to disaster. They are clothina themselves in this nationalistic vestment.

I am a Newfoundlander and as proud of it as any man or woman in this Province. h11t-. am also a Canadian and proud to be that too.This xenophobic inward-looking, chauvinistic, feeble-minded policy shows up in the offshore preference, it shows up in the whole budget speech. In the budget now we are seeing the results. If the Minister of Finance had one message for the people of this Province in his budget it was'boys and girls there is no money'. And there is not going to be any. We are borrowing too much and we are not borrow­ ing enough to meet our needs.

We are borrowing more than we can afford,but we are certainly not borrowing enough to build the roads and the schools and the hospitals and the services that our people expect, that our people deserve, and that our people demand. And that is why I say Sir, the budget is a sad,dispirited, spineless document. AN HON. MEMBER: What is your proposal? MR. ROBERTS: Is there another way? Yes,there is another way? Is there I have given up on the Minister of Finance, given up on him. AN HON. MEMBER: Breathless. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, he may be breathless. He is certainly bre~thtaking.But I would say, I would say Mr.

Speaker, there is another way. MR. HANCXJCK: (Inaudible) came prepared before. MR. ROBERTS: The Lower Churchill: Just look at that 3462 .~· r.·

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1243 RA - 3 ~R. ROBERTS: no question , no question of our constitutional rights. MR. H. BARRETT: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Yes, my friend from St.John's West(Mr. Barrett) pas made one of his rare but welcome appearances in the debate and he has shown us why his appearances are so rare and so welcome because he speaks sense unlike most ·of his colleagues. Where is the revenue coming from? The revenue could only come from one source, from an expanded economy in Canada and an expanded economy within this Province.

And if he will stick around a bit he will find out some cogent thoughts as to how that may be achieved which is more than the Minister of Finance(Dr.Collins) has offered us because he has not got anything in this budget as my friend from St. John's West will admit. There is nothing in this budget to help the business community. Where are we going to get the revenue if the business community does not provide it? That is - St. Mary's-The Capes that pays for all.

We live in a free enterprise society, the government has a half interest in every business in Newfoundland or 51 or 52 per cent-is it?- whatever the corporate tax rate is . That is where the money is going to come from. That is where it is going to come from. MR. ROBERTS: What I suggest is a government that cares and a government that has some courage not a government that rants xenophobia. Now, Mr. Speaker, I say to my friend from St. John's North (Mr.

Carter}, if he will but possess his soul and patience, he will be shown vistas as yet untrammeled, and he will be shown things that even he will fall upon his knees in wonder just as 3463

May 4, 1981 Tape .No. 1243 RA - 4 MR. ROBERTS: he wondereth at the Premier . He wonders at the ground the Premier t,rods upon, seeks but to touch the hem of the Premier ' s garment and o~ce again he ma.y be translated into the seats of power from which he was so rudely a.nd cruelly ousted , lc those many years ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. ROBERTS: poetic eloquence. MR. HANCOCK : him up then (Inaudible) Hear, hear ! Now, Mr. Speaker, enough of my If that is not enough to shut MR. ROBERTS: But really the member for St.John ' s North(Mr. Carter) makes one rise to poetic eloquence.He makes other things rise too.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! MR. ROBERTS: He really r eminds me of nothing more than a good burp,Sir, you feel awfully good after you get it out. Now, Sir, I want to say a few words about the Lower Churchill . No question of our constitutional rights to move the energy, there is no legitimate reason 346 4

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1244 IH - 1 MR. ROBERTS: that energy in electrical form ought to be regarded any differently than energy in the form of oil or the energy in the form of natural gas. You know, energy is energy. And the federal government - the Minister of Justice said it again here in St. John's last week - Have said that they will enforce that right. But where does that get us? Where does that get us? We need federal money to develop the Lower Churchill. It cannot be done by our own resources, can it? MR. BARRETT: They are (inaudible) partner. MR. ROBERTS: ram sorry? MR.

BARRETT: They are a 50 per cent partner. MR. ROBERTS: No, they are 49 per cent partner, but they are going to put up, my friend from St. John's North will recall, a great deal more than 50 per cent of the money. In fact, they are going to put it all up because it is on their guarantee that the money will be borrowed if there is no federal guarantee, there will be no financing, correct? That is correct, of course it is correct. MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible) customers. MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Speaker, the customers - we do not have any customers, yet.

We have some guys who say they want to buy, we do not have any customers. But we are going to need federal money, federal credit, to develop the Lower Churchill. we are going to need hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and in credit. The power must move through the Province of Quebec, unless we can move it on the Anglo-Saxon route. And we all talk about the Anglo-Saxon Route and one keeps hearing about it, but there seems to be a curious reluctance on the part of those in the seats of the mighty to say that the Anglo-Saxon route is economically feasible.

No doubt it is technically feasible, but I do not know whether the power loss is moving that block of power that distance - it is four or five hundred miles longer, as I understand it, than it is through Quebec. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . 3465 ....... _,

May 4, 1981 Tape No. 1244 IH ~ 2 MR. ROBERTS: No, I say to my friend from Buchans that I am told it is technically possible. It is certainly n