ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publlahed under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Welding S,,.alcer VOL. XXXI No. 66A - 2:00 p.m., THUR SDAY, 12 MAY, 1983. Pnnted by the Offlce of the 0Ufffts Pnnl«. Provinc4 of MIMilobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Cla yton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlo tte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verend rye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 12 May, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIA L STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPOR TS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As members will notice by the Proclamation and the Manitoba Tart an, tod ay, May 12th, is Ma nitoba's birthday.

I wish to be the first to say "Happy Birthday" to all mem bers of this House and to all people who consider Manitoba home. A province is people and their heritage, though the word "M anitoba" may conjure up bounda ries drawn on maps, cool lakes, golden fields of grain, forests of poplar and pine, and the Canadian Shield. People and traditions made this province the home we love, cherish and identify with.

I wish to pay tribute to those Manitobans who, in the early years, toiled to build this province and to make it a place in which we are proud to live and raise our families; and also, those who have recorded these events and used their talents of singing, painting and writing to celebrate our way of life. Those persons contributed greatly to establishing an image of our province as a leader. I also wish to pay tribute to those who were proud of their individual background, who saw the importance of preserving that heritage, and who have worked together to create a new society in a new land.

I also wish to recogn ize those Manitobans who continue to dedicate themselves to creating a cultural life which will grow and change with our province in the future. From its strong roots, this province will continue to produce persons capable of leading us to a better life in virtually every form of human ende avour. I invite all members of this House and, indeed, all Manitobans to join with me in celebra ting the achievements of our people and of our province, and in wishing all Manitobans another Happy Birthda y. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that everyone on this side of the House and all of the people of Manitoba would wish to associate themselves with the generous views that have just been expressed by the Minister of Cultural Affairs with respect to our birthd ay, our 113th birthday as a province.

In addition to all of the matters that he has quite properly noted that we can have pride in Manitoba, there is one further group that attest to the citizenship and to the loyalty that Manitobans have always shown to this country and, that is, for those men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their nation by laying down their lives for this province and for this country in times of stress that this nation unfortuna tely has found itself in, in those 113 years.

We join wholeheartedly in the expression of birthday wishes which the Minister has enu nciated today and hope that Manit oba may enjoy many many more genera tions, peace, prosperity and happiness in this great country. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Radisson have a point of order? MR. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speak er, I beg leave of the House to revert back to Reports of Standing and Special Comm ittees. MR. SPEAKER: Is it the wish of the House to revert back? (Agreed) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIA L COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your comm ittee met on Thursd ay, May 12, 1983, to consider the Annual Reports of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd., Channel Area Loggers Ltd ., and the Commun ities Economic Development Fund. Mr. C. Jones, President and Chairman of the Board, Mr. R.J. Kivisto, General Man ager, and Mr. G.P. Trithart, Secretary- Treasurer of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd ., provided such information as was required by Mem bers of the Comm ittee with respect to the Compan y.

Information with respect to all matters pertaining to the operations of Channel Area Loggers Ltd. was provided by Mr. Bill Bennett, President and Chairman of the Board, Mr. G.P. Trithart, Secretary-Treasurer, and Mr. J. Benoit, General Man ager. Mr. Bernard Wood, President and Chairman of the Board, and Mr. Hugh Jones, General Mana ger, provided such information as was required by Members of the Committee with respect to the Commun ities Economic Development Fund. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all Members of the Comm ittee to seek any information desired.

Su bsequently, the Annual Statements of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd ., Channel Area Loggers Ltd ., and the Communi ties Economic Development Fund, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1982, were adopted. 2669

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Member for Wolseley, that the report of Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS (Con t'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make a statement. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to report on an extremely successful sale yesterday of Crown-owned oil and natural gas leases, which I believe augurs well for a continuation of the mini-oil boom in southwestern Manitoba. Indeed relative to Manitoba's share of Canadian oil play and its history, we may be on the brink of a full­ fledged boom.

I say this because some of the significant sales yesterday indicate that several oil compan ies are prepa red to embark on more exploration in areas pre viously un pro ven. Yesteday's sale gen erated revenues for the province of $646,739.00; 34 of 45 leases offered were sold; leases sold covered 4,043 hectares with bonus bids averaging $146.73 a hectare. The highest lease bonus per hectare was paid by Pipestone Petroleum In corporated of Calgary for a qu arter-se ction located in the Lyleton area, 18 kilometers southeast of Pierson. The company paid $48, 790, or $762.34 per hectare as a tender bonus.

In the corresponding May sale held in 1982, bids on 30 of 36 parcels offered generated sales totals of $430,000 with an average price per hectare of $131.16. Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to note that three Manitoba­ based companies played a significant role in yesterday's sale. New Scope Resources Limited purch ased seven leases, while Westmead Limited and Brosco Fund Limited jointly acquired six leases. Other indicators which give basis to my optimism for continued development and expansion of the province's oil industry are contained in a new Qua rterly Report my department plans to issue in the future.

I have tabled that with the remarks I am making, Mr. Speaker . I am making the first report available to all Mem bers of the Legislature. Mem bers will find of particular interest the fact that licensed geophysical programs have already exceeded last year's activity by 400 percent. Licences have been issued for 4,623 sqaure kilometres of activity compared to 996 kilometres for all of 1982. This rapid expansion has in fact taken place since the report just mentioned was compiled.

The Quarterly Report shows that a total of 49 wells have been drilled so far this year compared with 24 during the same period last year which is a big expansion over the year before. Forty of these wells were completed as potential producers, Mr. Speaker . Production for the first two months of the year climbed by 27 percent over the same period in 1982, from 558,835 barrels to 709,789 barrels. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker , I want to express my pleasure with the pace of oil development and reaffirm my department's continued support and assistance to the entire industry. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I think it's evident to everyone that we welcome this announ cement by the Minister of Energy and Mines. It is indeed fortunate that the Minister of Energy of Mines has some good announc ements to make which flow from policies that were put in place by the previous Minister. MR. H. ENNS: Which he opposed. MR. B.

RANSOM: This activity, Sir, is a direct result of the fact that our government, in 1978, returned to the practice of leasing land for the exploration of oil and gas, a procedure that had been ended by the Schr eyer admin istrat ion in 1971. The people of Manitoba did not receive a dollar in lease fees between 1971 and 1977. We went back to leasing at that time and changed the royalty structure to make Manitoba competitive once again and the present First Minister, at the time that those changes were made, Mr.

Speak er, said in this House, "that if I as Minister of Mines thought that those changes were going to lead to increased oil exploration, then indeed I was a foolish visionary." What we have announc ed today, by the Min ister of Energy and Mines flows directly from those changes in policy, Mr. Speaker. We are very pleased to see that come about because the people of Manitoba now are experiencing this economic boon in at least one area of our economy and it came about, Sir, without ManOil. It came about without a nickel of tax expenditure by the people of Manitoba.

I commend the Minister of Energy and Mines for continuing with these policies; he should consider simply dropping the ManOil. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am pleased to table the department's annual pub lication of the Financial Statements of Boards, Commissions and Government Agencies for the fiscal year ended March 31st, 1982. That book is a consolidation of financial statements, most of which have previously been tabled because of a legislative requirement to do so. I trust that mem bers will find it to be a useful reference. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Mr. Speaker , I ask leave to table the Ann ual Repor t for the year 1982 of the Cle an Environment Commission. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . 2670

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. V. SCHROEDER introduced Bill No. 73,

An Act to repeal The School Capital Financing Authority Act; Loi abrogeant la loi connue sous le nom de School Capital Financing Authority Act. (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) HON. A. MACKLING introduced Bill No. 76,

An Act to amend The Crown Lands Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have 28 students of Grade 11 standing from the Glenlawn High School. The students are under the direction of a Mr. Styko and the school is located in the constituency of St. Vital. There are 25 students of the Inglis Elementary School of Grades 5 and 6 standing, under the direction of Misses Jackson and Ja nke. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell.

On behalf of all of the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Garrison Diversion Project MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Natural Resources or the First Minister. Can the Minister of Natural Resources or the First Minister confirm that negotiations are under way between the Federal Government and the Government of Manitoba with respect to a seco nd Federal-Provi ncial Parliamentary delegation to Washington in order to lobby against the Garrison Diversion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources.

HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am happy to confirm that I have had discussions with the Federal Government in connection with that matter. I have also attended in Washington, approxima tely two weeks ago, and had discussions there. Co nfirmation of the arrangements and the details will be confirmed sometime later in this Session. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Natural Resources confirm that the target dates for that meeting are the 24th and the 25th days of this month? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker , there are a numb er of dates involved and a numb er of visits involved and I'll confirm the details of that in due course. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker , from the standpoint of the government and opposition working out personal schedules, can he confirm the fact that the date that is being worked on presently by Mem bers of Parliament, Senators and the appropr iate Minister in Ottawa for the parliamentary delegation is the 24th and 25th of May? If that's the case, could he confirm it in order that the people here who may be interested in being part of the delegation can make their plans accordingly? HON.

A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker , I'm not in a position to confirm the exact dates. There have been tentative dates consid ered, includin g the da tes tha t the Honourable Leader of the Opposition mentioned. There are some earlier dates as well that have been considered and different representatives who will be attending at different times, but the exact times and visits have not been confirmed so far. Demonstration at U.S. Consulate HON. S.

LYON: Can the Minister of Resources advise the House whether one of the pur poses of his trip 10 days ago, or whenever, to Washington was in order to, shall we say, absolve himself from the cloud under which he operates in this House and in this province with respect to his unfortunate appearance at an anti­ American demonstration in front of the Consulate? Was he there for that purpose as well? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker , I can confirm to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that I had a very friendly and very favourable visit to a number of key people in connection with our interest in the Garrison issue. Certainly I did want to make clear to all concerned there that the suggested anti-American suggestion about myself or any other member of our caucus is a distor tion of fact; that we love our neighbours, but we reserve a right to speak out openly in connection with issues that we feel are important to us.

We Canadians are welcome in Washington and I was made to feel welcome in Washington, and I think they appreciate our concerns in respect to environmental issues and are happy to receive us. Garrison Diversion Project - delegation HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker , a question to the First Minister, is it still his intention to nom inate the Minister of Resources as a member of the Joint Federal­ Provincial Parli ament ary Delega tion going to Washington to speak on behalf of the citizens of Manitoba against the Garrison Diversion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLE Y: Mr .

Speak er, there's been no suggestion, outside of possibly my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, otherwise. HON. S. LYON: Is the First Minister saying that there have been no communi cations with the Department of External Affairs about the advisability of the Minister of Natural Resources not being part of the delegation for Manitoba? A MEMBER: We have no problems with that HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have not had, to my knowledge, commun ications. I would ask the Minister 2671

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 of Natural Resources to deal with that. But, Mr. Speaker, insofar as Manitobans - and I know those Manitobans that are mainly involved and concerned with respect to the Garrison - the information that I have received is that those most concerned about Garrison want the continued leadership of the Mi nister of Na tural Resources on this important issue. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, can the First Minister advise whether or not the parliamentary delegation that is being discussed between Ottawa and Manitoba will include persons other than Mem bers of the Legislature or of the Parliament of Canada? HON. A. MACKUNG: Mr. Speaker, I can indicate that in discussi ons I'v e had with the mem bers of the Parlia mentary Legislative Comm ittee in respect to Garrison that discussions have included representat ion from both Houses of Parliament in Canada, that is, the Senate and the House of Comm ons, and representation from this House.

As honourable mem bers may know last year included in the delegation to Washington was a former Premier of this Pro vince, Senator Duff Roblin , whose representation was well-received in Ottawa and I hope that he will be a part of the representat ion again this year. HON. S. LYON: I take it then, Mr. Speak er, that the answer to the question is that there will be no members of the parliamentary delegation, that is, other than Membe rs of Parliament and Membe rs of the Legislature, will be no municipal representatives attached to this delegation about which we have been speaking today? HON. A. MACKUNG: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there will be representation from Parliament and the Legislature only. Workers Compensation Board - amount of settlements MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board. Last summer the Minister arbitrarily fired the members of the Workers Compensation Board and substituted those members with his own appointments who also subsequently - note the clause, Mr.

Speaker, for that action - the new members of the board appoi nted by the Mini ster ar bitrarily fired two longstand ing career civil servants of the board. Would the Minister advise this House as to the amount of the settlement given by the Workers Compensation Board in settlement of actions for severance pay and wrongful dismissal? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Well, without accepting the premise that there was wrongful dismissal - and I certainly don't do that - I can indicate to the Member for St.

Norbert that Workers Compensation Board Estimates will be, or that part of the Estimates, will be before the House shortly and I would be pleased to have that material provided to him at that time. As he can confirm, we have made some arrangements already between the two of us to ensure that we have staff present for the discussion of those Estimates which will be a precedent as well, and I think will open up the process much more.

One of the reasons we want to have that staff present, one of the reasons the members opposite requested that we do that, and certainly the reason that we accepted that request was so that we could discuss those sorts of items in detail. I can provide the detail to him at that time or I can get it and provide to him through another question period if he so desires, but those two options are immediately available to us. I don't have it here at the present time and I don't accept the premise of his

preamble. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for the arrangements which we have ma de for consideration of the Workers Compensation Board. Can he confirm that the Workers Compensation Board settled a claim by Mr. Norm Hiebert, the former Director, who had served 25 years in the public service of Manitoba, settled his claim for severance pay and wrongful dismissal for $66,000; and settled the claim of Mr. Ernie Dyer, Director of Assessments, who had 29 years in the public service, for some $57,000.00? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. - (I nterjection) - HON. J.

COWAN: You know, on the opposite side, Mr. Speaker, they are shouting their typical comments of resign and their disdain for the improvements which have been made to the Workers Compensation Board. I would suggest that they talk to workers who are being better served by that new Board of Commissioners and better served by the new system than they ever have been in the history of this province, if they want an accurate reflection of what's being done in that system today.

I am ashamed that it took so long to provide the reforms that enabled the Compensation Board to better serve those workers, but I am extremely proud for the limited role that I had to play in making that system more responsive to the needs of workers in this province and I will defend them in any forum, given this forum. Now. I cannot confirm the amounts which were paid as a result of those dismissals. I certainly will not not or cannot confirm that they were in any way connected to wrongful dismissal charges.

But I will provide the information in a specific way which the member asked, as I indicated to him earlier, either by way of the Estimates review or by way of answer in another question period. But notwithstanding that fact and notwithstanding his question, I want the record to be very clear, that system is better serving the workers of this province today in a more efficient and effective way than it ever has been in the past. 2672 I L

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speak er, can the Minister confirm that within the past few weeks the Workers Compensation Board has fired or released another longstanding employee of the Workers Compensation Board, and that the Workers Compensation Board will have to pay similar dama ges as those paid to Mr. Hiebert and Mr. Dyer, for damages, for severance pay and wrongful dismissal? HON. J.

COWAN: If the Workers Compensation Board of Comm issioners is in fact changing personnel in that man ner, I can assure you that they're doing so because they believe those changes will better serve workers in this province. The fact that were a need for a couple of reviews and a judicial inquiry being started unde r the admin istration of those mem bers opposite indicate that there were serious problems with the Workers Compensation Board. We didn't throw out hands up and say there are no problems.

We went in there, we took decisive but tough action, and we made certain that system is in fact defending the rights of workers for which it was intended to serve. Now, if the Workers Com pensa tion Board Commis sioners ha ve decided that ma na gement changes are necessary as part of that overall reform, then in fact they have made those changes. I would be prepared to discuss the details with the member during the appropria te occasion; I don't have the specific information.

I can't confirm nor deny his specific allegations at this time, but I can confirm and will confirm that in my opinion, and in the opinion of those with whom I have discussed this matter, who are being served by that Board, they are pleased with the changes that have been made. They are for the most part satisfied that the Board is undertaking its responsibilities in a productive and a positive way, and they in fact support this government in the changes which it has brought forward as a result of reforms being necessary to that system for a very long time.

They are appreciative of the fact that they have been brought forward in such a definitive and positive way as has happened in the past. I want to make certain that the comments of the member opposite in no way reflect poorly upon the Board of Comm issioners whom I believe are doing an excellent job in their capacity of service to this province. Workers Compensation Board - firings MR. G. ME RCIER: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minis ter responsible for the Workers Comp ensation Board assure this House that there will be no further firings at the Workers Compensation Board, particularly of long-term career civil servants of the Board? HON. J. COWAN: It has always been an honoured practice, one to which the mem bers opposite subscribe, tha t the Workers Com pensa tion Board of Commissioners have responsibility for staffing in that area. I ha ve allowed them to unde rtake tha t responsibility and to exercise it in a manner which they have seen to be most fit.

I will continue to support them in exer cising their decisions as they feel is necessary and using their decision-making power to provide reforms to that system which are long overdue and extremely necessary and urgent. MANDAN interconnection MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday I took as notice a question from the Mem ber for Pembina regarding the Mandan line routing alternatives, and I'd like to answer him now. Alternative route proposals for the MAND AN line in Mani toba ha ve been annou nced.

Lan do wners, municipalities, and agencies affected are presently being informed of the details. In a mailing which was unde rtaken on Ma y 10 th - the lando wners, mun icipalities, and interested agencies - Manitoba Hydro supplied a large-scale map delineating the alternatives. Interested parties have been invited to attend a series of open-house meetings in June so that their suggestions and concerns can be incorporated into the process of selecting one preferred route, a 250-foot wide right-of-way for the line.

The Provincial Government has reviewed each stage of the route selection process and has approved the alternative route proposals. The Mandan Project

schedule requires that Manitoba Hydro select one preferred route by Septembe r, 1983. The preferred route selection will then be referred to the Provincial Government for final review and approval. Once the Provincial Government has approved the route, the matter must be referred to the Federal Government's National Energy Board, which may hold public hearings for a final assessment of the entire project. I've asked that those letters be also sent to all of the ML A's in the southern part of Manitoba and the MP 's. Affordable Homes Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honou ra ble Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, I direct my question to the Minister of Housing and would ask the Minister to advise the House whether the $50 million Affordable Homes Program which he and the Premier annou nced last August and September is now being admin istrated or run by the Jobs Fund? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, no, the Homes in Manitoba Program is still being run by the Department of Housing; however, additional funding has been allocated to the Homes in Manitoba Program by the Jobs Fund.

That had been indicated a nu mber of days ago by a press release, and that is the case. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could advise the House what portion of the unspent $50 million Affordable Homes Program announc ed last year by himself has been transferred to the Jobs Fund. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure if I'm clear on what the honourable mem ber is asking. There have 2673

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 been an additional $23 million added to the $50 million allocated in the first instance to the Homes in Manitoba Program; an additional $23 million allocated because of the tremendous response of Manitoba home buyers; the tremendous response and enth usiasm of the program by the Homebuilders Association and the construction industry in this province. We certainly anticipate being able to use those additional $23 million. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a question to the same Minister.

Out of the $50 million program annou nced last year, would the Minister confirm that about $16 million of that was spent in the last fiscal year, and that some $34 million of that particular program has been transferred into the Jobs Fund? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker , I can confirm that approxima tely 15 percent was spent, physically cash flowed, in the Homes in Manitoba Program. However, as the member will be aware there were approxima tely 1, 000 units under construction in the province in the months of March and April, I believe, and that the cash flow is on a progress basis.

So that while the program has committed those funds, clearly the cash has not flown to this point, all of that $50 million. But as I indicated, the commitment is there; the $50 million is on the way as the builders progress on each of the units; and in addition to that, the further allocation that came from the Jobs Fund will also be spent and over the course of the next numb er of months. MR. R.

BANMAN: Would the Minister of Housing confirm that the unspent portion of the $50 million program which he announc ed last Septem ber, that the unspent portion, some $34 million, is not in his Estimates but is in the Jobs Fund? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker , I can't confirm that. The Jobs Funds Estimates will be before the Legislature shortly, and certainly these particular questions that the mem ber has in mind we'll certainly be more than happy to answer at that time. I'v e indicated what has happened. The additional funds has come forward, and certainly we'll deal with those questions of the Jobs Fund. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Spe aker, to the same Minister, is he telling the House that he doesn't know where those some $34 million are, whether they're in his Estimates or in Jobs Fund? Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister a further question.

In light of fact that the $34 million are in the Jobs Fund, and in light of the fact that the Jobs Fund is now advert ising that particular program as being part of the $200 million Jobs Fund, and that these ads are now being played on radio and I und erstand also been appearing in the newspaper, would this Minister unde rtake to stop the use of taxp ayers' money to really put forward fraudulent ads which are recycling funds in the past and really stop one of the biggest snow jobs in the history of Manitoba. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker , if there is any snow job being had, it's from the honourable memb er opposite. Mr. Speaker , the Jobs Fund was set up to create jobs in this province. Mr. Speaker , we're talking about $73 million tha t has been commi tted or will be comm itted partly under the initial Homes in Manitoba Program, partly under the additional funds that have been located by the Jobs Fund. We're talking about 3,500 or more jobs in Manitoba and, Mr.

Speaker, on top of the fact that we're creating 3,500-plus jobs, we are also talking about the fact that this money, the money that is being allocated by the Homes in Manitoba Program, by way of mortgages at 11 .5 percent, is not a significant cost-back. We are creating thousands of jobs; the money is comm itted. I don't know what the honourable member is talking about when he's talking about a fraud. The jobs are out there. The construction industry is working, Mr. Speaker , and that's what the Jobs Fund is about. Number of bills this Session MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: I took as notice a question from the Opposition House Leader, the Member for Turtle Mountain, relating to the numb er of bills yet to be introduced in this Session. I can advise them that as of today, and over and above anything that is presently on the Order Paper or for which notice appears on the Order Paper, I am anticipating approxima tely 35 more bills. Of those, approxima tely 10 could be categorized as major; that is, they are not necessarily full Acts, but ther e ma y be one or two amend ments of ma jor significance.

Three of that numb er are the usual Finance Bills and approximately 22 contain minor amendments, more or less non-controversial. Only time can tell. One never knows where the opposition can find controversy if they root around deeply enough, but approxima tely 35 in total. Finance, Dept. of - Capital funds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, on Tuesday in the Estimates of the Natural Resources, the Min ister of Natu ral Resources was candid enough to acknowledge that some of the Capital funds that were not in his Estimates, part of the $7 million to $8 million reduction, were indeed in the Jobs Fund. If that Minister knows where his missing Capital is, my question to the Honourable First Premier or the Minister of Finance is, will he not do his Ministers a favour and tell them where the missing Capital is, the shifting game, the shell game that's been going on with this $200 million fraud fund? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thought I would never get the opportunity to get into this. The questioning that the Member for La Verendrye has just completed dem onstrates the total lack of honesty and integrity in the argument of the opposition that there is no money. We had the Member for Turtle Mountain just recently saying there is only a maximum of $18 million. Now, we have the Member for La Verend rye saying just in one program there is new 2674

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 money of $23 million to build houses in Manitoba. They accept that. In addition to that, there is the $10 million from the Manitoba Government Employees Association which they recognize. Now we've got $18 million, $10 million, $23 million that they recognize, but if we go back a few weeks and if you read the speech of the Member for Turtle Mountain, his first speech on this, there was zero. He was standing up in this House and saying there is no money in the Jobs Fund. We've said all along that there was some carry-over Capital.

I have provided the members of the opposition with the exact dollar numb ers of carry-over in Capital. They've got that, they know that; they don't have to ask questions. They're grandstanding today, Mr. Speaker . They have also been told as I said on Budget night that one-half of the $200 million is new money; the other half is not new money. So when the Mem ber for Lakeside says that there is this money from one spot to another - (Interjection) - yes, we have never den ied it.

We have said that there is money shifted to a central pot in order for a central control mechanism to make sure that we get maximum jobs out of our money for this year . That's wha t we're doing. Ther e is approxima tely $100 million of new money; there is approxima tely $100 million of old money gathered together. That is true; we've never denied it. That group has now said, zero money, $18 million, and today when you add all their num bers up together, at least they're at about $50 million. Pretty soon, we'll have them up to the $100 million when they get rid of their Turtle Mountain arithmetic.

CHMC housing starts MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, a question to the Minister of Housing. I am wondering if he can confirm to the House whether or not he has received a repor t from CMHC comparing Manitoba's performance in housing starts compared to the previous four years of the prevous admin istration and to other provinces in this countr y. MR. D. ORCHARD: Have you got the right answer this time, Jerry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: I will thank the honour able member for that question.

It is a very interesting one, Mr. Speaker , and it is certainly public information and I would be more than happy to provide my honourable colleague with a copy of the report and certainly be perfectly willing to table this report, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , the report is the First Qua rterly Report, 1983, a qua rterly report pu blished by CMHC and it indicates all the way through it the tremendous impact that the Homes in Manitoba Program has had on the housing industry performance this year. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, it's significant not only in what it says about the number of housing starts that we have experienced in the first quar ter of 1983, it also laments the fact, and with paraphrasing I would say that the report laments the fact that the previous four years saw a continuing decline in the importance and significance of that industry. Mr.

Speaker , if I can paraph rase, it says a dismal performance was leading the indus try and other investors into ques tioning whether there was ever to be a viable housing industry in the province and commends the provincial program for the initiative that we've undertaken and for the success that's been experienced in the building industry. CHMC First Quarterly Report, 1983 - population changes MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the same Minister, the Minister of Housing.

I wonder if he could also indicate whether or not that report gives any indication as to the population changes and what ha ppened to the years when the Tories were in government in this province and what has happened in the last year, in the year 1982. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the report does deal with some of those figures specifically when referring to the decreasing vacancy rate that Manitoba's experienced, and it indicates that from the years 1978 through 1980, Manitoba lost approximately 10,000 people per year, then you can compare that I think quite favourably to 1982 when 4,400 people actually immigrated to this province. Jobs Fund - Capital MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Finance which I'm sure he'll be able to answer briefly.

Can the Minister of Finance advise the House how many dollars of new budgetary authority appear in the Jobs Fund? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker , I've provided that information to the Member for Turtle Moun tain previously. I don't have the exact dollar amount in front of me. I can assure him however, again, because he doesn 't seem to unde rstand, that we have approximately $100 million of new money in the $200 million. I can also assure him that whether it is budgetary or non-bu dgetary, it is money that the government has to bor row.

It is money that will wind up creating jobs for unemployed Manitobans; and for those who are getting the jobs out of that $100 million new money, they will not be so concerned about whether it is described here as budgetary or non-budg etary as they are concerned about getting jobs out of it, and that's what we're trying to provide. Manitoba Cattle Producers Act MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , I'll try a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Perha ps he will be more forthright in answering. 2675

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture is reported, in the Winnipeg Free Press of May 12th, as saying that he advised the Manitoba Cattle Producers on Monda y that he would be changing the check off provision in The Manitoba Cattle Producers Act. Will the Minister of Agriculture confirm that this is the case? MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we did have discussions with the MCPA on Monda y. The matter of the bill in question in terms of policy will be presented to this House.

But as I indicated before, that we've had representations made and the final decision which will be tabled in the House. the honourable mem bers will be aware of and that's basically what I've said. ll/IR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the newspaper headline says, "The province is ending the forced check off on cattle sales." Now, I'm not inquiring as to the accuracy of the report in the newspaper, but ii is going to raise questions among the cattle producers, so my question to the Minister of Agriculture is, does he plan to make an alteration in The Manitoba Cattle Producers Act with respect to the checkoff provision?

HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker , the bill, when it will be presented in this House. will be debated, Sir. It is our intention to amend the legislation. MR. B. RANSOM: A question to the First Min ister, Mr. Speake r, because this borders on being a question of privilege, that Monday in this House I asked the Minister of Agriculture if he planned to make any changes with respect to the check off provision. That very same day he advised the Cattle Producers Association that he was going to make a change and he would not give that information to this House when he was asked directly on Monda y.

Will the First Minister direct his Minister of Agriculture to stop misleading this House with his answers to questions? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should know that in discussions with groups, intentions are given. Whether they are carried out is a matter of government policy. In fact, when a piece of legislation is tabled in the House and debated, whether it will be passed or amended is a matter of this House to decide.

The fact of the matter is, Sir, there is that intention but · the bill in its entirety cannot be released to anyone, and will not be released, and it is a matter of policy as to when that type of a measure is tabled in this House. Government policy re Ministers MR. B. RANSOM: A question to the First Minister then, Mr . Sp eak er. We have the situation where some Ministers act on behalf of the government and some Ministers act on behalf of themselves. This Minister now says that when he makes an annou ncement to someone it doesn't necessarily represent what the government is going to do.

My question to the First Minister is, how are we to know, and how is the public to know, when one of his Ministers is speaking, that they are indeed enunciating government policy? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the public have much more common sense obviously than the Member for Turtle Mountain is prepared to attribute to the public. The public have no dif ficulty in discerning that the Min ister of Agricultur e, ind eed, repres ents the Government of Manitoba pertaining to agricultural matters and the public has no such problem. Mr.

Speaker , I never thought for a moment that there would be any questions relating to a Minister discussing his concerns pertaining to particular legislation affecting a particular group and telling that particular group that he is giving serious consideration to changes in that legislation, asking that particular group if they would like to respond to him in respect to different alternatives in order to alleviate the concerns of that Minister, Mr. Speaker, that is consultation with people. Honourable members across the way may not know how consultation is spelled. It is spelled c-o-n-s-u-1-t­ a-t-i-o-n. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that this Minister of Agriculture - and it's supported by the Premier - that government policy is not going to be announc ed in this House, but going to be announc ed to different groups or talked about outside, will we be allowed to go to those meetings, or at least invited to those meetings, so we as legislators can be kept informed of what is going on? Manitoba Cattle Producers Association - contracts Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that last year only 44 cattle produc ers opted to withdraw from the Cattle Producers Association and withdraw their funds out of some - probably in excess of 10,000 cattle producers who are produc ers - 44 of them decided they didn't want to participate in that organization. Is that the justification he's using, Mr. Speaker , to introduce the major legislation he's talking about? If it isn't, would he table the documents that he says he's had so many of from the cattle produc ers requesting the changes that he is telling everybody but this House that are going to take place? MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. IB. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, at least the Honourable Member for Arthur was being honest and forthright that the original intention of the questions of the Member for Turtle Mountain was, that I was somehow announcing government policy and legislative intentions outside this Chamber before I annou nced them in this Cham ber. At least the Honourable Member for Arthur was honest in revealing that was the intent, to try and 2676

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 say tha t someho w I was announcing legisla tive measures outside this Cham ber. I did not do that and at least he was honest and indicated that his colleague was trying to say something that wasn't the case. Any measures that will be brought in will be decided upon on the merits and the stance of the government and representat ions made, but all decisions will not be made on the basis of someone's pressure or someone's intent as to whether or not a measure is good or if someone left a plan or not, Mr. Speaker.

The honourable member well knows that when a decision is made on this very specific measure it will be as a result of posit ions taken by mem bers of this Hous e, representat ions made and, on that basis, a collective view will be presented to this Cham ber. MR. J. DOWNEY: In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister has now said that they are going to move because of their political motivation and not because the num bers of produc ers have decided to opt out.

In his approach to the beef industry, and now saying they will have freedom of choice whether to be a part of the program or the Cattle Producers Association or not, will he give that same opportunity to the people who have signed his ill-conceived Beef Stabilization Program, that they will now have the freedom to market their cattle in a way in which they like and not proceed to use his state imposed marketing board on the beef producers; will they be allowed to market where they like to, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Spea ker, I did not, as one member of this government, go around rural Manitoba twisting any producers' arms to sign a contract, Sir. There were approxima tely 5,000 produc ers who signed contra cts and who saw the wisdom of having long-term stability in the beef industry; who saw the wisdom of having a guara nteed income for producers, the very fundamental question that producers have faced for many years. and in this one industry they have been given, once again, after havi ng a program totally wrecked by the previous ad ministration, have been given another chance to have long-term stability in that industry.

MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact he indicates, in his own mind, that he did not go around encouraging producers to sign into the state marketing system that he is imposing on the producers; or is it true that there are a numb er of producers who have initially signed up because of the way the program is working, and it is not a payout to the produc ers but, in fact, more money being paid into the program than they have ever hoped to receive out, that they are not opting out in great numb ers, Mr. Speaker, by the hundr eds; is that true?

Would the Minister give us the num bers of people who have recently opted out of that program; or requested to opt out? HON. B. URUSKI : Mr . Sp eak er, first of all, the honourable member should recall his words where in this House he said that we would be lucky if 10 percent of the produc ers would sign up on the program. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur on a point of order. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I want the Minister to withdraw that statement because I did not refer to 10 percent, or any percentage, in this House of any cattle producers signing up to that program, and I would like the Minister to withdraw his statement and correct it. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for that matter of clarification. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: The honourable member should know that the program is voluntary and that any producer who wishes to opt out of the program, that's always been a factor in the program . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur on a point of order. MR. J. DOWNEY: I've asked the Minister to withdraw the statement that he made, that I had made reference that only 10 percent of the producers would participate in that program, Mr. Speaker; or else prove that I said it, Mr. Speaker. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, if there is a point of order, and I'm not sure that there was, if the member was clarifying that he didn't make that statement, I accept his statement that he didn't make that statement.

I accept that, Sir, but the honourable member should be aware - (Interjection) - It's not a matter of keeping honest. I will check the record and the newspaper clippings of his statements. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that the progam is a voluntary program and that any producer is able to opt out at any point in time, provided that the contract obligations that they have entered into are lived up to. There have been, and I go from memory, approxima tely between 20 and 30 producers, I believe, who have opted out of the program, Mr.

Speaker, from the time of inception till today. There have been that many who have opted out of the program, there is no doubt about it, out of approximately 5,000 producers, Mr. Speaker, there have been that many that have opted out. Mr. Speaker , they were not coerced, as under the former program when the Tories were trying to scuttle a good program that provided stability of producers, they have the freedom of choice to opt in or opt out under this program. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. Does the Honour able Member for lakeside have a point of order? MR. H.

ENNS: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, it was I, indeed, that uttered that prophetic 10 percent statement, and I want to put it on the public record, Mr. Speaker, my only trouble is that it'll be a Progressive Conservative Government that will have to find some way of getting the remaining 10 percent out of the plan when we take office in 16 months. 2677

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for that clarification. The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs on a point of order? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Speaker, I'd like leave to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave. (Agreed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, last evening on the eve of Manitoba's birthday the YMCA SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm sure the YMCA would join with the YWCA.

The YWCA held its Seventh Annual Woman of the Year Awards and annou nced winners in six categories, Mr. Speaker . Included amongst the winners, in the business category, was Suzanne Banfield; in the community service was Dr. Sybil Shack; and the management category was Razelle Kovnats who, I unde rstand, is the sister-in-law of the Member for Niakwa; in the professional category was Dr. Karen Johnson; and in the public affairs category was our colleague, the Minister of Labour, the Honour able Mary Beth Dolin. Mr.

Speaker , the last category was the arts category and that's one I would like to just spend a moment informing mem bers the award winn er in the arts cat egor y was Nady a Kospyshyn Bai ley who is a Provincial Government Civil Servant who has been working since 1969 for the Provincial Government as a creative arts consultant and I'm certainly pleased and proud that she has been recognized by the YWCA as Woman of the Year in the arts category. I might just let you, Mr.

Speaker, and members know, and the people of Mani toba, some of the accomplishments of Nadya; she, as I indicated, has been employed in the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources since 1969 and she initiated the first Provincial Leadership Training Program for leaders of children's programs in the arts in the Province of Manitoba. She also initiated the first leadership training program in the arts during the period in the late '60s and early '70s. She also developed the first International Folk Dance Training Program in the province. She developed the first Ukrainian leaders course for training.

She also developed the first art training program for the Manitoba Child Care Association. She has been a person that has worked far above and beyond what is required of a civil servant in the Province of Manitoba working for the arts. I'm certainly pleased, and I'm sure all members will join me on congratulating Ms. Bailey on her award. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. I understand that there may be a vote as we go into Supply. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURREN T COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, P.

Eyler: Comm ittee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. The Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: In the

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 last Tuesday night, May 10, 1983, considering the Budget of the Department of Natural Resources, the Member for Lakeside moved after 10:00 p.m., a motion to the effect that the Minister's Salary be reduced to $1.00. I now report this matter in accordance with Rule 65(10) in joining me to put forth such a motion without further de bate of the first item of business at this next sitting of the Comm ittee of Supply in this Cham ber. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order.

The motion before the comm ittee is that the Minister's Salary at the Budget item Line 1.(a)(1) be reduced to $1.00. MOTION presented and defeated. HON. R. PENNER: Yeas and nays, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the memb ers. Order please. The motion before the House is that the Minister's Salary at the Budget line Item 1.(a)(1) be reduced to $1.00. A COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 20; Nays 28. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the motion defeated. MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee please come to order. We are now about to consider the last item which is the Minister's Salary, Item 1.(a)(1).

The Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I know the Minister ackno wledges and appr eciates the 2678

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 exercise that we just went through in terms of voting the reduction on his salary. The reduction was voted as the traditional form of protest that the opposition feels and a means that is open to the opposition to indicate our concern about the fact that this department, along with other departments that have to do with physical infrastructure of the province, whether it's road building, whether it's agriculture, whether it's natural resources, seem to be the departments that have been singled out by this government for actual reductions in appropriations. Mr.

Chairman, I have on many occasions indicated my willingness to co-operate with a government that, indeed, is attempting to live within its means, or at least restrain its spending to the levels of revenue collected by the government through the taxes it imposes.

However, when we see the average spending increases of this government, consisting of figures of somewhere between 18 percent and 20 percent; when we see this government's willingness to enter into hastily agreed programs in the City of Winnipeg to build, whether it's more arenas or whatever, and at the same time subject the Department of Natural Resources to severe restraint, then we simply register our protests in the manner and way in which this Minister is carrying his weight within the Cabinet rooms of the present government. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I don't wish to enter into a lengthy deba te this afternoon, but there is another issue that I would like to raise with the Minister, bearing in mind that he has acknowledged, as we have pointed out, that in so many areas money has been of acute scarcity in the department throughout his Estimates, mon ies that conservation officers, staff require to bring the service to the people have been reduced in the item listed under Other Expenditur es in each expropriation.

Staff, fortunately, has not been reduced, although when a department like Water Resources is going to spend $7 million or $8 million less than they did last year, one has to ask themselves precisely what staff is going to do that they could administer an $18 million program last year, what are they going to do with the $11 million program this year? But, Mr. Chairman, when that has already been the case, I do appeal to the Minister, to reconsider a standing order that he has allowed the department to take, and that is, to remove a small

section of road in the Oak Point area, a piece of road that enables several ranchers to get at some of their Crown lands which the same department leases to them, enables them to bring out some of the hay that they require; this is a road that was put in a few years ago. I appreciate there's a continuing question of concern with respect to wildlife interests, but I think these are questions that can be resolved.

Certainly the ranchers in question are prepared to go along with any reasonable request the department has with respect to limited access; they are prepared to see the road barred, or gate erected, so that undue access will not in any way disturb what is a very desirable and suitable wildlife habitat area, contains substantial goose feeding and potential muskrat raising and muskrat raising operations; but, Mr.

Chairman, it seems to me that when a Minister in a government is already strapped for dollars, it just doesn't make sense to spend, yet, an extra $17,000 or $20,000 to take out a little piece of road that was put in three or four years ago, particularly when this is done at the request of an absentee landlord living in Montreal.

I simply don't understand that kind of reaction on the part of this Minister and I would ask him, he is aware of the case, he has had personal representation of the case; there has been a lot of heat generated in this particular area about that, although I must report to the Minister that it is my considered judgment that both the fishermen and some of the wildlife interests that originally had voiced some objections to it, are now of a different opinion, feel that the department can pr operly su pervise and ma na ge the wildlife resources in that area without any undue harmful effects to the area with the remaining in place of this road.

If the Mini ster can acknowledge, as he has acknowledged throughout his Estimates, that, yes, he's had to cut back on some of the extra equipment that his department has; yes, he's had to cut back on some of the extra field services or mileage allowance that his conservation officers have because of restricitions of dollars; and, yes, there have been deferral of some of his projects, and I don't fault the Minister for that.

But it simply doesn't make a great deal of sense to the people, and even to the people that originally objected to its presence, to now see the government spending taxpayers' money in removing that road . I'd ask the Minister to reconsider that position that his department has taken and whether or not he would not even, at this late date, consider rescinding that order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, just very briefly, I don't want to prolong the . . .

The Crown land sale policy was one based on agriculture Crown leases that were leased by agricultural people, or people of Manitoba, on a long-term basis, and the application of that sale policy is one which land that had been leased for some two-year period prior to the desire to sell, that land would be sold. Is that policy in place now or has there been any policy change in that area? HON. A. MACKLING: I'll answer them all at once. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions? MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, is there any policy change that would allow people to buy the land if they've had it leased on a long-term basis - agricultural leases on a long-term basis - is that now the policy that is in place? That's all the questions I have. MR. SPEAKER: Any other questions from any other member? The Minister wants to answer all the questions all at once. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I will take the questions then in reverse order. In respect to Crown land sales policy, the answer is effectively, no.

We have reviewed the Crown land sales policy; the policy continues to be that where someone has an agricultural lease of Crown land and has been in possession and leasing it for two years or more, 2679

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 then it is open to that to lessee to apply to purcha se and provided the land is confirmed to be suitable for agriculture, then the land may be sold. In respect to the road that was established for haying purpose, and I believe - I'm not sure whether that's the Marshy Point Goose Reserve, I believe it is - I had representat ion both ways in connec tion with that. Certainly the repres entations from game and fish interests and my unde rstanding of the fishermen's concerns were, that they did not want the road there; they were very much opposed to it.

It is a very prime goose nesting habitat and the concerns were that it wa sn't ju st the haying operation itself which is destructive of habitat; the concerns were that with the provision of the road, there was trespassing, there were people getting there, molesting the geese. It was not a desirable thing. I certainly am prepared to ask my department to confirm what the views of the Game Branch is in respect to this road; what the views of the Wildlife Associations, the Manitoba Wildlife Federation and the fishermen's associations, what their views are.

I may be mistaken, but my understanding was, that they are very much opposed to the continuation of that road. I would like to put on the record, Mr. Chairman, the fact th at too often I think in the history of land dev elopment in this province, wildlife ha s been sacrificed. Now I am not saying that in any way, in derogat ion, for the need for agricultural land. That's a given, we must develop agricultural land to grow food to feed people. But there has to be some consideration, some firm consideration for wildlife if we're going to preserve wildlife on this continent.

Just recently, Gerrie McKin ney, the participant in the anti-Ga rrison lobby from Brandon, brought to my attention an advert isement in a Melita paper of an American group who are very much concerned about the proposed drainage of a very large swamp or marsh area in the Dakotas which will add, accord ing to the advert isement, some 26,000 acre feet (sic) of water to the Souris River, a river that is already a problem from the point of view of flooding. The attitude in some parts of this continent are that wetlands must be drained, they must be drained for agriculture.

I can appreciate, as I say, the concerns for agriculture. We need good arable land, but there has to be some consideration of wildlife, there has to be some consideration of the effects of continued massive drainage of wetland, not only in wildlife, but on the environment itself. We don't know what we're doing with certainty in respect to our ground water, we don't know what we're doing to our environment if we continue these massive raids on we tland.

I, this morning, toured the Oak Hammock Marsh, Oak Hammock is, I think, a marvelous facility, it's an example of where government people have determined that wildlife does have a value. We have spent money reclaiming to marsh an area that historically was a very large marsh and became all agricultural land, almost all, except for about 45 acres of remaining wetland that could not be developed agriculturally because of the artesian wells and the continued persistence of marsh in that area, that couldn't adequately be drained. Mr.

Chairman, that is now a nesting area and a staging area for thousands and thousands of wild fowl. It's a tribute, it's a credit to this province, it's a marvelous resource. We had 35,000 people visit that facility last year, we spent a fair bit of money last year on upgrading the facilities there and I hope that I can invite all Mem bers of the Legislature to tour that facility some day soon. I'm going to discuss with my department laying on arrangements for a visit of all ML A's.

So I want to put on the record my conc ern for the preservation of wetland; my concern for the preservation of wildlife; and, yes, there are times when, despite the concerns about wildlife, we will have to make sacrifices because of drought conditions for agriculture, but I refuse to be stampeded, Mr. Chairman, in respect to the needs of agriculture for hay when it is prime nesting area for wildlife and there should be other resource available. I will look at that, Mr. Chairman, I will discuss that with my department but I indicate my concern that we not continue to give second place to wildlife in this province.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)(1)-pass. Resolution 116: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,093,500 for Natural Resources for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1984- pass. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman; thank you, colleagues. MR. CHAIRM AN: Thank you. This conclu des the consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Natural Resources. SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVEL OPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Now we are about to comm ence con side ra tion of the Department of Economic Development and Tourism.

As is traditional with this comm ittee, we shall start with an opening statement from the Minis ter re sponsible for the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. HON. M. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When the Minister of Finance tabled the Budget and Spending Estimates of our government in the Legislative Assembly on February 24th of this year, he began his Budget Addr ess by saying that unem ployment is the No. 1 problem in Canada and that it is the No. 1 problem in Manitoba.

Tackling this problem has been the No. 1 challenge for our government and the No. 1 challenge for my department over the past year. Throughout, we've attempted to meet this challenge in a spirit of compassion, creativity and co-operation. This is a spirit that characterizes the theme and the tone that our government has established for itself. In the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, this is the spirit we have ende avoured to capture and follow in fulfilling the parti cular manda te of the department and of my portfolio.

In introducing this year's spending Estimates for the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, I want to put my department's efforts over the past year and our plans for the forthcoming year, in the context of this challenge for our government as a whole. 2680

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 Every dep artment and every Mini ster in this government has contributed to the effort in our battle agains t un employment. As Minister of Economic Development, I think it is important to review the Estimates of my particular department in the context of this overall government effort. Mr. Chairperson, there are three major priorities underlying the economic policies of our government and my department. These three priorities are, in summ ary, jobs, jobs and jobs. What I mean by this, Mr. Chairperson, is that there are three distinctly different kinds of job action which we have initiated.

All three are a priority for our government. They are, more spe cifically: first, creat ing immed iate jobs; second, retaining viable jobs and third, creating new long-term jobs. Let me briefly go through each of these in turn. Our government's first priority is jobs, immediate jobs. These are jobs that will get as many people as possible back to produc tive and useful work as quickly as we can.

Examples of government programs and initiatives targeted at this kind of immediate job are, our accelerated Capital Works Program announced last year; the Homes In Manitoba Program; our work with muni cipalities and local busine sses thr ough our Commu nity Commercial Development Program and Main Street Manitoba, and most recently, the Jobs Fund. I want to emp hasize the importance we attach in this type of job action, to creating immediate jobs that are both productive and useful.

Note that every one of the initiatives I have mentioned will put people to work doing something that will fulfil! an established need in this province. My colleagues and I have been most insistent on this. We have worked hard to ensure that the immediate jobs created by these programs fulfil! priority needs and generate long-term benefits for the people and economy of Manitoba. In other words, Mr. Chairperson, none of these initiatives are make-work projects. Furthermore, we categorically reject the idea that every job created by or in the public sector, is by necessity unprod uctive and ma ke-work.

In some quarters the idea is vigorously promoted that the only productive job is one created by and in the private sector. Mr. Chairperson, we acknowledge the productivity of private sector workers and the importance to our economy of private sector jobs, but the notion that all other jobs are unp roductive or a drai n on society, is shallo w and na rrow -mi nde d nonsense. What is required is balance between the sectors.

What is required is vigilance to ensure that immediate jobs generate long-term benefits spread throughout the province, and what is required is co-ordination between the public and private sectors to achieve this. Our government is committed to ensuring that all of our im med iate job initia tives meet all the se requirements. Our second major economic priority is retaining viable jobs. These are jobs which, for a variety of reasons, Manitoba is in danger of losing, either temporarily or permanently, within the present economic environment. Mr.

Chairperson, it is important that we neither expect nor attempt to save every job in Manitoba, no matter what the cost. However, it is nevertheless true that in many cases a great deal both can and should be done to retain a numb er of these jobs. Since we have taken office, a num ber of important programs in my department and in other departments have been initiated with this specific objective in mind.

Examples of this type of program, targeted especially at retaining jobs are: the Manitoba Interest Rate Relief Program , as designed and admin istered by my depar tment; the Department of Ho using and the Department of Agriculture; the extensive training and retraining programs, jointly initiated by the Department of Labour and Employment Services, the Department of Education and the Federal Government; the Business Alert Program institute d in my department in conjunction with Labour and Emp loyment Services to reorient our resources to respond quickly to firms in financial difficulties; the task forces on plant closures, to explore every alternative to closure, or in the event that closure is inevitable, to ensure that employees are given every possible support in making their transition to another job, further training, or early retirement.

In this category I would also place our extensive efforts to sustain operations at Assiniboia Downs, of which I will be saying more later. In all of these cases the emphasis has been on joint co-operative action of all sectors involved. Also, in all these cases, our emphasis has been on retaining Manitoba jobs in economically viable operations by assisting the necessary adjustment process. All the groups we have worked with under these programs fully understand the importance of this viability criterion and has supported us fully in this.

Through these initiatives, I believe, government has put together a solid and innovative package to retain viable long-term jobs in our province. Our third major priority, is creating new jobs. These are especially longer-term jobs that are going to be needed to respond to the significant structural and techn ological ch ange s ahead of us in Mani to ba. Mem bers will appreciate that creating new long-term jobs is no easy task. Even more than efforts to retain jobs, the creation of new job opportunities is very much a joint effort. Note that I did not say, this is an effort solely for the private sector.

I have empha sized that this must be a joint effort. It is an effort that must involve business, labour, community groups and co-ordination between numerous departments of government at all three levels. In this joint effort, our government and my department have unde rtaken a num ber of important new initiatives targeted at the challenge of creating new long-term jobs for Manitobans. Let me mention a few of the most important of these initiatives.

In August, the Premier announc ed the formation of the Economic and Resource Investment Comm ittee of Cabinet, ERIC for short, to create and overseas the long-term economic development policies and efforts of our government. The Department of Crown Investments was established last spring, to allow us to co-ordi nate the investem ent, pur chasi ng, perso nn el and ma rke ting policies of our Crown Corporations to the greatest of public advantage.

The Economic Summit convened in Portage la Prairie last fall should also be seen in the context of our conscious policy of co-operating with busi ness and labour to attempt to find solutions to the joint challenge of creating new jobs for Manitobans. The new Northern Development Agreement negotiated with our federal 2681

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 partners, the Department of Northern Affairs, also falls in this category. Finally, throughout the government we have been rebuilding our planning capacity to evaluate projects and options; to allow us to participate in joint efforts with the private sector to create the kind of long-term jobs we need. These are examples of interdepartmental efforts. With regard to my own department, let me list some of the long-term job creation initiatives we will be discussing in conjunction with these Estimates.

First, there is our Inno vative Venture Capital Corporation Program; the three Tourism Capital Programs we have launched jointly with the Federal Government; a new industrial investment thrust, of which we will be saying more later; a new tec hnology thrust including in particular a new CADCAM, Computer Assisted Design Comp uter Assisted Manufacturing initiative; our small business development services; our trade promotion programs; a new emphasis on commun ity development and regional development; and our Buy Manitoba Program.

We will have an opportunity to discuss each of these programs in detail as we go through the Estimates line-by-line. However, I would like to make use of these opening remarks to put these departmental programs in perspective and to outline the broad rationale behind some of these key initiatives. The responsibility and manda te of the Department of Economic Development and Tourism is focussed primarily on the medium and long-term dimension of economic devel opm ent and job crea tion.

Our department has been charged by the Economic and Resource Investment Committee of Cabinet with special responsibility for the priority placed on retaining jobs and on creating new jobs. Recently there's been a great deal of public debate on the immediate need for jobs and upon the reasons for this immediate problem. This is both understandable and justifiable. The fact is, that in the last year Canada has experienced the most severe economic recession of the past half centu ry. There's been no one simple causal factor unde rlying this recession, so there will not be any one simple solution to the problem.

On the other hand, two features of the current recession are, in our view, undeniable. First, much of the problem can be traced directly to the highly unjust policy of forcing up real interest rates that was followed by both the Government of the United States and the Federal Go vernment of Canada. Second ly, the recession has meant for our society billions of dollars in lost production, as well as human costs that are immeasurable.

Another feature of the recession however, is that to a certain extent it has served to mask a num ber of more fundamental structural and technological changes occurring throughout the world economic system of which Manitoba is a part Perhaps of even more importance here as elsewhere, the critical process of adjusting to these structural and technological changes has been severely restricted and even crippled by the recession.

In order to understand the policies and efforts required to retain and create jobs in the context of these more fundamental changes, it is important to put current unem ployment in a somewhat longer term perspective. Mr. Chairperson, our current circumstanc es are not wholly or solely a phase in a business cycle. In many respects we're at a turning point in our economic history. There are signs that the present recession recycle may be beg inning to turn around.

This recovery, when it materializes, will most certainly be both fragile and gradual, but whatever form the recovery takes, even if it were to materialize miraculously next month, we would find ourselves emerg ing into an economic world quite different from that which predated this recession. We will increasingly find ourselves facing new, largely unp recedented fun da mental challenges. It's quit e reasonable to expect that there will be no going back to that previous economic world. Working together we will have to adapt in a dynamic way, or we we will have adaptation forced upon us.

One component of this funda mental change and the associated challenge, has received a great deal of public attention. The so-called new wave of technological change has been well documented and thoroughly discussed. High technology and the implications of the microprocessing revolution have been the focus of much att ent ion. I do not want to unde re sti mate the significance of this challenge for a moment When we come to discuss our departmental programs in more detail, it will be evident that we have attached a great deal of importance to this particular technological challenge.

What I want especially to emphasize here, is that the microchip is only one of a series of challenges which we will have to face in the next decade. A num ber of these other challenges, although well documented, have not received as much attention. It is important we not become overly fixated on only one dim ension. It is the combi nation of a series of fund amental changes that mu st be ana lyzed and responded to by the public sector, labour, the private sector, and society as a whole. To a certain extent this combined effect has not received the full public attention it deserves.

In planning our program we've attempted to avoid such fixation on one single program and put together a package of initiatives that is both balanced and pragmatic. Let me list a numb er of the most important components in this series of challenges and changes ahead of us. Emerging in the international economy is a group of nations newly industrialized and challenging established industrial structures. We're faced with nations of the Third World asserting themselves and demanding quite justly their share of the world's economic wealth.

We will pull out of this recession to face a population now much more aware of the high costs of economic growth in terms of environmental damage, and much more conscious of the dangers of nuc lear proliferation. We will be competing in the world economy with nations not only further along in the microchip revolution, but also with more modern plants and equipment, and with much more sophisticated labour management models and national planning systems. Finally, we cannot ignore additional complications associated with the implementation of the general agreement of tariffs and trade.

With the past failure in this coun try of an indu strial strategy ba sed on megaprojects and with uncertainty surrounding the future of energy prices, other commodity prices and markets. There's no need or intention to be alarmists about these devel opm ents. To a large extent these developments are international in scope and everyone 2682

Thursday , 12 May, 1983 will have to adjus t accord ing ly. Furthermore, the challenge posed by these developments can be met by Mani tobans and by Canadians. We do have difficulties. We're not the richest nation on a per capita income basis, but on the global scale we are truly in a favoured position. I think there's three major lessons to be taken from this. First, there is not going to be any simple initiative or single sector that can be isolated as providing the key solution to these challenges. What is going to be required is a balanced and well thought out package.

Simplistic, ready-made solutions pulled unthinkingly from the past, will not do. We must be innovative and pragmatic. Second, there going to be a heightened need to be even more dynamic and forward looking in our response and adjus tment to these changing techn ological, comp etitive and structural factors. Any economy that does not respond to the challenge in a dynamic way, prepared to make the necessary changes, will be left behind. A period of change and adjustment is ahead. Third, there will be an increased need to be co­ operative and work together to keep our economic dynamic and forward looking.

We are not going to meet these formidable challenges ahead of us merely by battling it our through the market, letting all the weak, the unfortunate, or the disabled fall by the wayside, though the market will continue to be an important reality for all of us. We must learn to work together and to develop new models and attitudes for making the market work better and for overcoming its greatest inequities. In the Department of Economic Development an d Tourism we have incorporated these three major themes in our programming over the past year and in our plans for the forthcoming year.

These themes will be evident as we look at specific programs and initiatives in our Estimates. The Enterprise Manitoba Agreement with the Federal Government has been a significant component of this depar tment's programming over the past five years. That agreement officially expired March 31, 1983. I'm pleased to announc e that we have successfully concluded negotiations with the Federal Government to provide for an orderly termination over the next 18 months. Several of our highest priority initiatives will be maintained through 1983-84.

A three-month task­ force review of the Regional Development Corporations is now unde r way. The review team will visit 22 rural centres and make recommendations on the future role of the RDCs in the development process. We have provided for increased RDC financing in our 1983-84 Estima tes so tha t we can imm edia tely implement desirable recommendations. The Enterprise Development Centre in St. Boniface has provided important services to the small business commun ity over the past three years and these services will continue to be provided through 1983-84.

Gradua tes of the advanced factory space are prospering and creating new jobs. The Enterprise Development Centre through its one-stop-sh opping concept is actively helping rural and urban businesses solve financial, marke ting, production and gene ral ma na gement problems. The Brandon Enterprise Development Centre has not, however, been as successful, largely because the smaller size of that city could not sustain the advanced factory space program. We cannot afford to fund programs that do not fully and efficiently meet their objectives.

Therefore, we will not renew our lease on the Brandon facility when it term inates in January, 1984. Officials in my department are currently developing options to replace this program and ensure that the businesses in Brandon and the surrounding commun ities are well served. In our consultations with the private sector, the plight of existing and proposed small business enterprises faced with problems of high debt-to-equity ratios, chronic shortages of working capital and a lack of risk capital have been raised repeated ly.

The remoteness of Manitoba for major capital markets and the lack of interest by large venture capital companies in smaller firms have focused attention on the need for new sources of venture capital. In Febru ary, I announc ed a $1 million Venture Capital Program. In the very near future, I will announce the appointment of an advisory board for this program to provide input and expertise by appropria te interests. This board will review the proposals by private-sector investors interested in establishing venture capital compan ies and recommend for approval a range of proposals to test the program.

The advisory board will also monitor and review the content, structure and perf ormanc e of the program and ma ke recommendations with respect to its continuation and imp rovement following the initial trial period. The Venture Capital Program is an innovative initiative designed to addr ess a chronic and pervasive problem. The success of this program is largely dependent on the response of the private sector and that is why we engaged in extensive consultation in the development of the program.

Once the advisory board is in place, we will actively solicit the par ticipation of indi viduals and group s throughout the province. It is estimated that the initial $1 million allocation will generate $2.4 million in new equity capital. This in turn will stimulate additional investment of $7.2 million. It has been estimated that the program could create in the order of 250 direct and indirect jobs and generate provincial tax revenues of approx imately $330,000 annually.

It is our hope that the program will make an important contribution in providing a remedy for the limited access which small busine sses frequently face in the current capital markets. At the same time we recognize that it is a modest trial program. Manitoba is a trading province but we're also a province that has a severe imbalance in our trade. To improve this situation we must export more and we are working systematically to accomplish that. How well we do in the national and international markets depends in large part on the quality and competitive pricing of our products.

Efforts aimed at increasing productivity and quality are essential elements of our strategy. We are expending substantial energies in stimulating the application of state-of-the-art ma nu facturing technologies in our existing industries. The Indus trial Technology Centre in Winnipeg and the Food Centre in Portage la Prairie are key components of this impo rtant th rust. These centres are now well­ established and their value to indus try is clearly demo nstrated in their growing project-based revenues, 2683

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 but the long-term stability of the manufacturing sector is so dependent on adopting new technologies that we must not relax our efforts. I'm pleased to announce that we have reached agreement with the Federal Government to allocate nearly $2 million under Enterprise Manitoba to bring advanced comp uterated engi neering technology to Manitoba industry. These funds are being used to develop comput erated desi gn and comp uterated manuf acturing facilities at the In dustrial Technology Centre.

This is a significant and strategic expansion of the Centre's capabilities and will enhance its role of providing technological leadership to Manitoba industry. CADCAM Systems harn ess the power of the computer to store, retrieve, manipula te and display graphic information related to the product and the production process. Adoption of this technology can lead to remarkable increases in productivity and quality with accompanying decreases in costs of design and production.

Moreover, sophisticated product analysis is now possible in the design phase which can identify potential problem areas before any prototypes are built enabling early error correction, and again, reducing development time and cost. The Centre, in addition to helping businesses solve immediate problems, will now be able to provide manuf acturers with the opportunity to gain firsthand experience with the latest production technology. Full busine ss and labour supp ort for a mo re competitive techno logy-based economy is critical.

To this end, I've expanded the role and manda te of the Manitoba Research Council to ensure that the human side of technology is not ignored. Manitoba must keep its comp etitive edge in marketing by keeping pace with technological change but this must be accomplished in a way that ensur es an orderly, planned and humane transition to new technologies. As some jobs are phased out through technological advance, new and expanded job opportunities can be made available if markets are expanded through a parallel thrust.

We must be as concerned with redeployment of our human resources as conc erned with redeployment of our human resources as we are with the restructuring of capital for national and international competitiveness. However, we must not focus exclusively on national and international markets if we are to achie ve a balanced, stable economy. We must also improve the capabil ity of Mani toba compa nies to com pete in­ province to provide the goods and services we ourselves require. That is why we have launched the Buy Manitoba Program. The three main elements of the new program are: .

Imp roved tendering practices; the introduction of a review procedu re which can un der certain circumstances provide a discretionary price preference in favour of Manitoba-made products; a strong request for the private sector to join in efforts to source more requirements from local manufacturers. Again, we have consulted extensively with the private sector in the development of this program. The Buy Man itoba Pr ogr am is intended to complement the Buy Canada initiatives of the Federal Government.

We are very much aware of the importance of Canada's role as a major trading nation and the importance of exports to Manitoba business. We have and will continue to strongly supp ort the Federal Government's efforts to maintain unrestricted trade between the provinces and territories. Manitoba will remain one of the least protectionist jurisdictions in Canada. My department's Regional Benefits Branch will be active in 1983-84 in implementing this important new initiative.

The branch will undertake four concrete initiatives: expand and improve our sourcing directories and be more active in our efforts to familiarize major purcha sers with these di rectories; co-ordina te pu rchasing sem inar s involving major pu blic- and private-sector purchasers; sponsor reverse trade shows where opportunities for local man ufacturers to supply goods presently being imported are being presented; develop an opportunities catalogue identifying products now being imported.

These initiatives will complement our contin uing involvement with the Federal Government and the other provinces in the Institutional Marketing Program. I've outlined some of the key elements of our strategy to strengthen the small business community, to improve our export performance, to keep pace with technological change, to improve our ability to supply our own needs and to foster regional development, but we must also intensify our efforts to attract new investment and new jobs to the province. That is an immense challenge in current economic circumstances.

These efforts will be suppor ted by a new advert ising campaign but, more important ly, we are developing a sophisticated investment analysis technique to target our marketing efforts on specific companies. This approach will be innovative and prom ises to provide a technically advanced method of identifying potential investors. We also are working closely with th e Federal Government to attract more entrepreneurial immigrants from abroad to Canada and, more particularly, to Manitoba. These efforts have already shown promising results.

Tourism continues to make an impo rtant contribution to the economy of Manitoba, although like many other sectors, it has felt the negative effects of the 1982 recession. Research has indicated that international and interprovincial travel was reduced generally in 1982 as families in our prima ry travel marke ts felt the effects of recession on their incomes, or generally became wary of the economic situation. For the 1983 calendar year, we look toward some modest recovery in non­ resident travel receipts and toward continued growth in in-province travel by Manitobans.

As the economic recovery appears to be advancing more rapidly in the United States than in Canada, we look toward our primary Un ited States travel markets to show increases in numb ers of visitors. In addition, we have established growth objectives for in-province travel and for travel from the Northwest Ontario and Saskatchewan markets. We are targeting for real growth in tourism receipts for 1983 ol approximately 2.6 percent.

In order to realize these short-term growth objectives and to establish the improved tourism product that is necessary for long-term development, the Tourism Division has set seven strategic priorities for this fiscal year. First, we will undertake a year-round program of promotion and tra vel information services. These promotional efforts will include programs of tourism 2684

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 advertising, direct marketing and special promotions targeted to our priority markets. We will be conveying, to these priority markets, a sense of the warmth of the province's hospital ity and its diverse vacat ion opportunit ies by introducing a new advertising theme, "Take Another Look." With this new theme and image we will be inviting previous and potential visitors to take another look at the array of pleasure travel opportunit ies that exist in the province.

This new theme highlights diversity; empha sis is placed on the variety of vacation products and experiences which can appeal to a range of market segments. Second, we will be initiating a program, in concert with provincial marketing activities, that is designed to generate increased private sector promotion and marketing efforts which are complementary to the provincial programs. Third, we will seek to generate increased federal and inter-provincial marketing and development resources toward Manitoba tourism obje ctives.

Fourth, we will undertake an aggressive program for the upgrading of the existing plant and the development of new tourism attractions in Manitoba. The Capital Assistance Resources available for tourism attractions development un der the Canada-Manitoba Tour ism Agreement, Destination Manitoba, provide a substantial incen tive toward this objective. These Capital Assistance Programs were made operational in July of 1982 and provide a total $16.5 million for tourism attractions and accommodation development.

Two of the pr ograms un der this ag reement, Winnip eg Destination Area Development and Rural Destination Areas Development provide $3.5 million and $6 million respectively to Attractions Development by government and nonpr ofit organizations. The third program, Rural Tourism Ind ustry Incentives provides forgiveable and low-cost loan assistance to private-sector development of tourist attractions. While the printed Estimates reflect our assessment of cash-flow requirements for these programs in this fiscal year, it is our objective to commit the full $16.5 million to projects by March 31st, 1984.

Again, the Capital investment levered by these programs will provide construction jobs now and new jobs for the future. The level of response from the nonp rofit and the private sector to date suggests that this objective is reasonable. Fifth, we will implement a program designed to develop and improve private sector accommodation facilities in rural Manitoba. The major planning study undertaken by consulting firms in 1980 and 1981 has indicated a need for improving our resort-oriented acc om modation plant. The Tour ism Dev elopm ent

Section will be assisting operators in identifying and developing viable accommodation projects. It is our objective to commit the full $7 million available, under the Des tina tion Mani toba Agr eement , for accommodation development by March 31st, 1984. Sixth, programs will be developed and implemented to upgr ade skills in the tourism ind ust ry. Huma n resource counselling and training resources will be made available to operators and industry associations.

Seventh, the success of this industry, more than most, depends upon the co- ordina ted and co-operative activities of many business sectors, local organ izations and governments. It is our intent to increase our efforts directed toward facilitating this co-operation. 1983-84 Grant Assistance to the Central and Regional offices of the Tourism Indu stry Association of Manitoba will total $173,800.00. The assistance is provided for ad ministration, ongoing programs and regional tourist booth support. The grants vary among regions in recognition of regional disparities, transportation factors and population.

Destination Ma nitoba is currently reviewing an application from TIAM for additional su pport for special ma rke ting and co-ordination initiatives. · The printed Estimates for the 1983-84 fiscal year provide an allocation of $3, 700,300 to the horse racing industry in Manitoba. This industry has come through a troubled year, due mainly to the receivership and temporary closure of Assiniboia Downs.

Unfortun ately, public attention has been focused on this problem to such an extent that many positive activities that will help secure the long-term position of this industry have been overlooked or simply not recognized. A numb er of positive achievements over the past year, such as, the first full winter standard-bred meet ever held in Manitoba; the growth in the Great Western Harn ess Racing circuit; and the first Quarterho rse race meet, with pari-mutuel wagering, held in Rossburn, to mention a few examples, are indicative of a rather successful year for the horse racing industry in Manitoba.

The very considerable job of overseeing the racing industry through this turbulent period, while making very considerable progress in matters of concern to the ind ustry , was ha nd led with dedic ation and professionalism by the Racing Commission. I would like to commend them for the valuable work extended on behalf of the racing industry in Manitoba in 1982.

Briefly, to review a portion of this work, I must recall the efforts of the comm ission in the early spring of 1982 in establishing the financial status of the track through the hearings; their success in mediating the negotiations necessary to get the track re-opened and operating after the receivership with a loss of only six racing days, the development of new regulations that provide for the protection of horsemen's and the public's money from track closures which should allow for improved public confidence in the industry as a whole.

Finally, with the extension of racing to a year-round activity, and with the obvious need for close scrutiny and enforcement of the new regulations, the staff resources of the commission have been strengthened. We expect to have the position of supervisor of racing filled in the near future. We expect the successful candida te to bring to that position the strength of experience and qualifications clearly required for the job that must be done. We look forward to 1983 as the year to build upon the positive changes that have occurred in racing in Manitoba.

Provincial support programs for pur ses, breeders, the rural circuit, and the developing quarter horse sector have been provided for at the enha nced levels begun in 1982. With the current operator of the downs close to becomming the full legal owner, with purse agreements in place for the thorough bred season, and with plans being made for continuing the fall and spring harne ss meet, we expect a rec ord year in wagering and attendance. The commission will be working with the standard bred industry this year to design a breeder's incentive 2685

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 program that will provide stimulus to increase racing stock in that part of the industry. In addition, new regulations will be developed in co-operation with standard bred horseman. The current standard bred meet operates under Canadian Trotting Association rules which are somewhat inappropriate to the Manitoba situation. Further change to the thoroughbr ed rules of racing have been prepared for industry review in an effort to clarify the processes relating to appeals.

With the positive steps taken in 1982 and with consolidation based upon these changes, we are confident that the racing industry in Manitoba can look forward to a brighter and more secure future. In conclusion, Mr. Chairperson, the programs of our department that I have outlined, fit into the economic prior ities and policies of our government. have emp hasized our special role in long-term job creation efforts. I have also mentioned the key role we have to play in retaining viable job opportunities in this province.

Together, with our gover nment's em pha sis on immediate job creation, especially through the Jobs Fund, this constitutes a comprehensive and innovative eco nomic package responding to the compl ex economic challenges we face in Manitoba. I have emph asized the importance we attach to a balanced, pragmatic approach to a dynamic innovative response and to the need to co-operate with the private sector in the programming.

That is the major theme on which I would like to conclude these introductory remarks, in responding to the challenges ahead, especially in adapting dynamically to the fundamental, technological, competitive and structural changes we must face. Everyone has a role. Together we are strong. Our government and my department is comm itted to continuing our efforts in a manner fully consistent with this message. MR. CHAIRMAN: Consistently the traditional procedure of this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply of the Whole House, the Chair now calls upon the loyal opposition party's man, critic of the department, the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, to present his customary reply to the Minister's statement, if he so wishes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has given a very broad outline of the department, and I had the opportunity to myself for three years to give the same type of an outline when the Estimates came up. I am well aware of the ability of the staff to put together a very comprehen sive outline of what the department is doing.

But at listening to it, and read ing the Estimates that have been put before us by the Departme nt of Economic Development, there seems to be very very little change. I am not being critical of that because I know the department works under these different titles in many different ways but there is very little change in the department structure and Estimates. So I can only say, Mr. Chairman, that we will not be spending 18 hours on these Estimates, un less the Minister wants to, as we did last year.

We will be moving through them much faster because it really boils down to, the staff is there and available to do the work that the Minister has outlined, to do this work that they have been doing for several years, but it is the policies of the government that will make the economic structure of this province better and it won't matter about the efforts of the staff to any great degree, because it's 100 percent most of the time, if the policies of this government are such that industry avoids the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, a lot has been made of the Summit Conference that was held and put together by this government. It was quite impressive that everybody got together and gave their opinions and their help or any suggestions that they might have, to help build the economy of the province. The government made a lot of noise about it, publicized it, and as Mr. Martin said, made good political gain. Mr. Martin also said that the next meeting was bad. There was no good structure for the meeting and the meetings since the first one have not been constructive at all as to helping the economic development of this province. Mr.

Chairman, I know the Minister answered that question in the House when I asked it or presented the letter from Mr. Martin and she said tha t we appreciate criticism from all sides and I think that's very commendable, but you got criticism. You got very strong criticism as to the follow-up of the Economic Summit meeting in the Province of Manitoba.

So, I would sincerely hope that when the government keeps talking about the Economic Summit meeting that there is some thing under way to make sure that these meetings are continued in a fashion that are going to help the Province of Manitoba and not be of any use the way Mr. Martin described the follow-up meetings. Mr. Chairman, the Min ister has used the word "balanced" approach since she became Minister. I am still havi ng trouble trying to figur e out what that balanced approach is, or what it means. Last year in the Estimates, the Minister said the same thing.

The balanced approach, that we would have industries throughout the province and that the industries would be such that would be good for Manitoba as far as creating jobs, and they would be good corporate citizens of the province, and they would be consideration of environment; all of those things that the development officers have been instructed to look at for years. During the Estimates last year, we questioned the Min ister very very stringently on whether the government was going to direct where industry would have to go.

It would seem by the sound of this balanced approach again, that the government is going to be the ones that will decide where industry will go in this province. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, maybe they want to have industry spread out through this province in a balanc ed way, but I also su gg est that when communit ies are working to have industries within their area and the companies decide where they would like to locate because of the labour force available, etc., tha t is, either acc ommo da ted working with th e commun ities or they will go elsewhere.

I still, as I said, I'm not quite sure what the balanced approach means. The Minister goes on to say on Page 690, the balanced approach, which does not comp letely please business, which means that you may have to go somewhere else, or I take as that. I submit that many of the policies and programs should be quite compatible with what business want. We are not leaning completely to one side or the other, but before the Minister makes that statement she makes the statement, we don't believe 2686 I •

Thursday, 12 May, 1983 that there's an automatic benefit to all the people if we have a large numb er of thriving businesses, nor does that mean that we think we can do without a large numb er of thriving businesses. Mr. Chairman, I have a hard time understan ding what the balanced approach really means because I know, and all of my colleagues know, and all of the 54,000 people that are employed in this province know, that we have been through a tough time in Manitoba, but the indicators for Canada is that it is starting to move up gradual ly.

The First Minister makes a big thing out of the fact that we are now third or fourth in the overall investment in the count ry. Naturally he likes to bring that up but he never brings up the fact that the reason it dropped down to as low as it was is the previous government stopped the investment on the hydro development in Northern Manitoba. So, Mr. Chairman, the province has gone through some tough times, but with the slight upturn that is being forecast by most of the forecasters, is Manitoba going to be in the position of taking advantage or getting its fair share of private invest ment.

The Mini ster mentions the Venture Capital Program and I've read it over. It would appear that the Venture Capital Program will do some good, it's something that we always thought we should have more of in Manitoba; Venture Capital is very very valuable to us here. I don't really like the idea that your program does have an equity because I think that more important people with more money to invest may just steer away from that clause in the Venture Capital Program. You may not get the top people becoming involved in your program with that clause that has some equity in it.

But that is the policy of a socialist government and we all know that that won't change but we all know that that will scare investment away from this province. Will we get our share of this upturn that we're speaking of in 1983-84? Mr.

Chairman, I don't know how this government can honestly believe, and the Minister debated the 1.5 employment tax with me last year, a tax on employment in this province, the Minister didn't seem to think, as Mini ster of Eco nomic Development, that it was going to harm investment in this province and yet everybody that is involved with business in this province has advised this government that it has been harmful. Let's take, Kimberly-Clark, who have decided to leave this province and they were going to expand.

I wonder if you're going to expand anywhere and you're sitting down deciding where you should have the expansion, and you have a facility elsewhere that can be added to, you have a facility elsewhere that has a little more modern equipment than the present plant in Winnipeg has, and you say, if we expand in Manitoba we have a tax on employment, if we expand other than Manitoba, except for Qu ebec, you don't have any tax on employment. Mr. Chairman, I said quite awhile ago that I would not pay any attention to anything the Member for lnkster said and I will tend to keep that promise for the rest of my life. Mr.

Chairman, if he chooses to keep going I will have to keep reminding him that red fireflies are something that I don't bother with. Mr. Chairman, I would say that the Business Alert Programs, the plan that has been brought forward by the Minister; the Tourism Co- ordination; the R&D, the Tourism Adver tising, the Adver tising Program that's being spoken of within the department.

I commend the Minister for keeping that up and I don't really believe that the province should stay with the same motto every year, or stick to Good To See You forever, and I think the change of Take Another Look is something that is desirable, but we' ll see if it catches on or not. Advertising of this type is always a gamble, hopefully, it will catch on, but I also say, hopefully, it was tested in other areas in a small way first the way we used to test the advert ising and the promotional programs to see if they were attractive to people, I certainly hope that that has been done.

I hope the Minister is not going to have a big new advertising department like the Minister of Education has put forward, at least, it doesn't appear in the Estimates as if the promotional department has gone overboard, as far as other years are concerned, but there's no question that the advert ising that is being done by this government is being handled somewhere outside of the different departments and I will be questioning just how much money that other group is spending to put together the films and everything that is being done for the tourism program.

I compliment the government on their work as far as the computers are concerned. I think that that's a good move, I think it's a follow-up on the move that we had started with the Un iversity of Manitoba in the Micro-electronic Centre, and I think the computer research in the Technology Centre is exceptionally good. I have to say that all of the base, all of the base for these programs, has been here for a very, very long time. I don't really see, other than the Venture Capital Program, anything new. You mention the programs of the Destination Manitoba took off in July of last year.

I have read the pamphlets on the program, I would say that they're not quite the same recommendations that I had regard ing launching those programs, but the government has the right to set up their programs any way they like but, really, what you have set up is just another loan program which might be called a small interest rate relief program, that's basically what you have in your new tourism attraction programs.

With the first $25,000 forgiveable you pay back the next $25,000 - and I don't have it in front of me at the present time, but the pamphl et says that you'll pay back the balance on - I don't know whether it's arrangements or prearranged interest rates. I would be asking the Minister if I could have the regulations or the guidelines of those programs. I phoned her office the other day making the request. I might say that I haven't got them as yet. I would be requesting those guidelines. Mr. Chairman, the attitude at the present time toward Manitoba by business is not good. I'm sure that the Minister knows this.

She gets reports from her industrial trade officers or development officers. Maybe they haven't been aware, or maybe the people haven't been straightforward with them, but the people that I have been talking to and the people that I meet that are looking at investment in Manitoba are very cautious of investment in Manitoba. As I said in the Throne Speech Debate, when you have Mr. Martin or the head of the union that's in charge of the Retail Grocery Stores Association say, you know, you can't close in Manitoba unless you have certain 2687

Thursday , 12 May, 1983 regulations, or you can't go broke, or decide that you're going to move unless you're going to abide by certain regulations that we would like to have in Manitoba. Well then that's fine, they just won't come to Manitoba. If you're going to ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, the Member for Sturgeon Creek will have 15 minutes when we resume after Private Members' Hour. We will resume at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPL ACE SAFETY AND HE ALTH l\ll R. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order.

We are considering the Estimates of the Department of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, Item 1.(a)(2). Does the Minister have any introductory remarks? HON. J. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I have held some discussions with the critics from the opposition on the presentation of these Estimates and it's been indicated that we will be discussing areas of general concern.

We've agreed to that arrangement that we'll be discussing issues, therefore I will confine my opening remarks to some very brief comments and will use the opportun ity of responding to suggestions, criticisms, ideas and concepts from the mem bers opposite to extend into the areas into some detail. Firstly, I might say that it's a special honour and it's a rare privilege to have this opportunity to introduce the spending Estimates for the first time of the newly formed Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health.

The Provincial Government has been some time in reviewing this option and throughout, we have unde rtaken to discuss and consult with those that are going to be mo st affected, from staff, to ma na gement groups, to labour gr ou ps, to environmentalists, in order to obtain their advice and their assistanc e in making certa in tha t this new department inde ed reflected the needs tha t they perceived and provided the services which they felt were necessary. So I'm particularly pleased to have this opportunity to present these Estimates in this way to this Legislature for review and consideration.

There are a numb er of areas that the department has und ertaken, other activities throughout the last year, and there are certainly a numb er of areas where we expect to continue those activities, or to develop new thrusts over the upcoming year. I'll very briefly provide . some broad para meters as per agreement with members opposite, and then get down to questioning the detailed items which they would like to discuss. The Department of Environ ment and Workplace Safety and Health, through the Environ mental Ma nagement Division, ha s been working on a Hazardous and Special Wastes Management Program.

This will include the provision of mechanisms to deal with the more potentially hazardous nature of certain su bstances througho ut their existence. We are developing a program that in the past has been termed, "Cr adle to Gr ave." Given the new emp hasis on recycling, and one which we share, we've decided that the Program Manitoba would best be entitled, "Cradle to Resu rrec tion," because recy cling is such an important part of that whole process. We are reviewing legislation as was indicated in the Throne Speech Debate in respect to dangerous goods handling.

As you are aware the Department of Highways and Transportation has indicated it will be moving with a bill entitled "Transportation of Dangerous Goods," that will cover highway situations. Our bill would cover all other situations. We are involved in a very extensive consultation process with industry, with unions, with other groups, un iversity and professional groups, technicians, etc., to develop the best possible legislation, and hopefully we'll have annou ncements to make on t