Manitoba Hansard — 4 May 2010 (Sitting 39B, 39th Legislature, 4th Session)

39-4-39b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXII No. 39B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 4, 2010 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WIEBE, Matt Concordia N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1767 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 4, 2010 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 225–The Public Health Amendment Act (Regulating Use of Tanning Equipment) Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): I move, seconded by the honourable member for Kirkfield Park (Ms. Blady), that Bill 225, The Public Health Amendment Act (Regulating Use of Tanning Equipment); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la santé publique (réglementation de l'utilisation des appareils de bronzage), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Brick: Mr. Speaker, this bill proposes that no tanning operators will be permitted to allow minors to tan without parental consent. A consent form that includes appropriate health risks will be developed and improved by the Chief Provincial Public Health Officer, and operators must post warning signs so that adults will be aware of the risks of using tanning equipment. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Ophthalmology Services–Swan River Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: The Swan Valley region has a high population of seniors and a very high incidence of diabetes. Every year, hundreds of patients from the Swan Valley region must travel to distant communities for cataract surgery and additional pre-operative and post- operative appointments.

These patients, many of whom are sent as far away as Saskatchewan, need to travel with an escort who must take time off work to drive the patient to his or her appointment without any compensation. Patients who cannot endure this expense and hardship are unable to have the necessary treatment. The community has located an ophthalmologist who would like to practise in Swan River. The local Lions Club has provided funds for the necessary equipment, and the Swan River Valley hospital has space to accommodate this service.

The Minister of Health has told the Town of Swan River that it has in sufficient infrastructure and patient volumes to sup port a cataract surgery program; however, residents of the region strongly disagree. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health to consider rethinking her refusal to allow an ophthalmologist to practise in Swan River and to consider working with the community to provide this service without further delay. This is signed by D. Sauder, M. Wenstob, J. Boychuk and many, many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Waste-Water Ejector Systems Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Manitobans are deeply committed to protecting the environment, and they want to be assured that the provincial environmental policies are based on sound science. In early 2009 the provincial government announced that it was reviewing the Onsite Wastewater Management Systems Regulation under The Environment Act.

Affected Manitobans, including property owners and municipal governments, provided considerable feedback to the provincial government on the impact of the proposed changes, only to have their input ignored. The updated regulation includes a prohibition on the installation of new waste-water ejectors and the

1768 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 elimination of existing waste-water ejectors at the time of any property transfer. Questions have been raised about the lack of scientific basis and these changes–to these–for these changes, as a Manitoba Conservation official stated on October 8th, 2009 edition of the Manitoba Co-operator, "Have we done a specific study? No." These regulatory changes will have a significant financial impact on all affected Manitobans.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Conservation to consider immediately placing the recent changes on the Onsite Wastewater Management Systems Regulation under The Environment Act on hold until such time that a review can take place to ensure that they are based on sound science. To request the Minister of Conservation to consider implementing the prohibition of waste-water ejector systems on a case-by-case basis as determined by the environmental need in ecologically sensitive areas.

To request the Minister of Conservation to consider offering financial incentives to help affected Manitoba property owners adapt to these regulatory changes. And this petition is signed, Mr. Speaker, by H. Snitynsky, W. Brown, D. Douglas and many, many other Manitobans. Medical Clinic in Weston and Brooklands Area Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: Community-based medical clinics provide a valuable health-care service.

The closure of the Westbrook Medical Clinic has left both Weston and Brooklands without a community-based medical clinic. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider how important it is to have a medical clinic located in the Weston-Brooklands area. Mr. Speaker, this is signed by J. Caron, S. Harcus and M. Daly and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you. Mount Agassiz Ski Area Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

And these are the reasons for this petition: For several decades, the Mount Agassiz ski area, home to the highest vertical between Thunder Bay and the Rocky Mountains, was a popular skiing and snowboarding destination for Manitobans and visitors alike. The operations of Mount Agassiz ski area were very important to the local economy, not only creating jobs, but also generating sales of goods and service at area businesses. In addition, a thriving rural economy generates tax revenues that help pay for core provincial government services a nd infrastructure which benefits all Manitobans.

Although the ski facility closed in 2000, there remains strong interest in seeing it reopened, and Parks Canada has committed to conducting a feasibility study with respect to the Agassiz site and future opportunities in the area. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the appropriate ministers of the provincial government to consider outlining to Parks Canada the importance that a viable recreation facility in the Mount Agassiz area would play in local and provincial economies.

And to request that the appropriate ministers of the provincial government consider working with all stakeholders, including Parks Canada, to help develop a plan for a viable, multiseason recreation facility in the Mount Agassiz area. This petition is signed by D. Rink, M. Radford- Ferguson, H. Sigurdson and many other fine Manitobans. PTH 15–Twinning Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1769 In 2004, the Province of Manitoba made a public commitment to the people of Springfield to twin PTH 15 and the floodway bridge on PTH 15, but then in 2006, the twinning was cancelled. Injuries resulting from collisions on PTH 15 continue to rise and have doubled from 2007 to 2008. In August 2008, the Minister of Transportation stated that preliminary analysis of the current and future traffic demands indicate that local twinning will be required.

The current plan to replace the floodway bridge on PTH 15 does not include twinning and therefore does not fulfil the current nor future traffic demands cited by the Minister of Transportation. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation consider the immediate twinning of the PTH 15 floodway bridge for the safety of the citizens of Manitoba. Signed by N. Campbell, M. Lafortune, C. Bohn and many, many other Manitobans. Multiple Myeloma Treatments Mrs.

Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition: Health Canada has approved the use of Revlimid for patients with multiple myeloma, a rare and progressive and fatal blood cancer. Revlimid is a vital new treatment and must be accessible to all patients in Manitoba for this life- threatening cancer of the blood cells. Multiple myeloma is treatable, and new, innovative therapies like Revlimid can extend survival and enhance quality of life for the estimated 2,100 Canadians diagnosed annually.

The provinces of Ontario, Québec, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Alberta have already listed this drug on their respective pharmacare formularies. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: That the provincial government consider immediately providing Revlimid as a choice to patients with multiple myeloma and their health-care providers in Manitoba through public funding. And Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by A. Klann, G. Klann, B. Cuttire and many, many others. * (13:40) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today, we have Lieutenant Commander Paul Stiff from HMCS Chippawa; and we have retired Colonel Gary Solar, Special Advisor for the Envoy; and we have Scott Allingham, who is a Petty Officer First Class, who are the guest of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski) And also in the public gallery, we have from Rosenort School, we have 20 grade 11 and 12 students under the direction of Mr. Arlin Scharfenberg.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu). And also in the public gallery, we have from École Van Walleghem School, we have 52 grade 4 students under the direction of Ms. Alison Palmer. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. McFadyen). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: When you're finished, we'll have oral questions. Are youse completed? ORAL QUESTIONS Economy Government Fiscal Strategy Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, throughout Canada today provincial leaders, premiers, are pursuing new strategies to attract investment and create jobs within their own provinces. They're taking bold new steps, such as the New West Partnership, to bring investment from places like Asia, India and other places around the world to ensure the economic progress and job security of their own citizens. By contrast, Mr. Speaker, here in Manitoba, the NDP government has introduced Bill 31, which

1770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 introduces a series of new tax increases, and instead of protecting and creating jobs for Manitobans, it protects the salaries of NDP ministers. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier why it is that he's more preoccupied with raising taxes, increasing debt and protecting the salaries of NDP Cabinet ministers than he is for laying out a plan for the future of Manitoba and job creation here in our province. Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): We do have a very clear plan in front of Manitobans, which is part of this budget, and priority No. 1 in this plan, Mr.

Speaker, is to protect essential services, which is why 90 percent of all the additional spending in this budget goes to h ealth care, education, family services, justice and infrastructure. That's very clear, it's very focussed, and it will help move Manitoba forward on all those fronts. The second part of the plan was to continue with all the other governments in Canada, federal and provincial, with the stimulus program, which will generate an additional 29,000 person-years of employment this year and build assets like new schools, new hospitals, new roads, clean water, proper sewage.

All of those will become permanent assets in Manitoba as we stimulate the economy and generate employment. Thirdly, we have a rebalancing program in this budget that will bring us back into balance within the next four years. It will also pay down debt $600 million and it will keep Manitoba one of the most affordable places in the country to live–at least in the top three, but ac cording to Saskatchewan, No. 1. Mr. McFadyen: Well, Mr. Speaker, the problem with all of that is that the biggest increase in spending in this year's budget is servicing the debt, which has grown to record levels under this government.

A 10 percent increase in debt servicing costs more than double the increase that went to health care. And so when they are cutting programs for addictions, when they are cutting adult education in Portage la Prairie, when they're cutting programs for children with hearing disabilities, when they're cancelling high schools and other projects in the province, it doesn't convince Manitobans that the province is on the right track. Instead, debt is growing.

The cost of servicing that debt is increasing, and what we see in Bill 31 is nothing but a series of short-term measures to protect ministers' salaries, raise taxes across the board in Manitoba and further discourage people from making investments. Where is the plan for private investment in Manitoba? He's talked a lot about government spending. Where is the plan to bring investment from Asia, from India and from other places to create an economic foundation that will allow us to ensure prosperity and strong social programs into the future? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, when the members were in office, they spent 13 and a half cents on the dollar to service the debt. We're spending 6 cents on the dollar–6 cents on the dollar–as the result of 10 years of prudent fiscal management which paid down debt, which allowed us to address the pension liability ignored by this Legislature for over 40 years. We now have, every year, fully funded employers' contributions to teachers' and public servants' pension plans, which avoids an enormous liability going forward. We have financed infrastructure investments which have grown the economy in Manitoba.

All of these things we've done while, at the same time, this year Manitoba will be the first province in Canada to have no taxes on small business up to $400,000. We will be the first province with a tax-free zone for small business. Secondly, we will eliminate the capital tax, the first time in history that's been done in Manitoba. No capital tax, so businesses can invest in new technology and new equipment. And those are just some of the things we'll do, Mr. Speaker. I hope to be back very shortly to tell you the rest of the story. Mr. McFadyen: Well, Mr.

Speaker, they're being cut out of trade agreements that are being entered into to the west of us. They've been cut out of trade agreements to the east of us. There are ongoing challenges that are matters in the federal domain to the south, in terms of access to the American market, and we simply don't have a market in Manitoba large enough to support the sort of growth that's required to sustain the level of spending that this government is intent on pursuing. And so, Mr. Speaker, he can talk about pensions, but we saw from the story last week that many pensions in Manitoba are in serious trouble.

He was the minister who oversaw the demise of Crocus, which damaged pension income security for

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1771 Manitoba seniors, and now we see a similar Crocus approach being taken to the entire economy of the province of Manitoba in the way he's mismanaging our finances. He's moved Crown corporation debt off the books so that doesn't need to be counted even as he moves revenue in. Mr. Speaker, we don't need accounting tricks. We need an economic strategy. When are we going to see one? Mr. Selinger: This is the only government that has ever complied with generally accepted accounting principles. The members opposite kept the pension liability off the books.

The members opposite used backdoor mechanisms and Hydro to finance their obligations for northern communities. This government has put everything on the books, and that has been acknowledged by the Auditor General of Manitoba. The member asks what we're doing to expand the economy. Manitoba has one of the best new media tax credits in the country. Manitoba has the best film tax credit in the country. Manitoba, as I said earlier, has eliminated the capital tax. It's eliminated the education support levy, which is $110 million-plus of benefits to Manitobans. And just this weekend, Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba signed a memorandum of understanding with the state of Queensland in Australia, which will see our biotech sector collaborating together, our scientists collaborating together to develop new products. We reinforced our relations hip with Minnesota and Wisconsin. We are doing things every single day to expand the footprint of this economy– Mr. Speaker: Order. Bill 31 Government Intent Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, here we have it. Gary Doer has left the building, and along with him he took the moderate side of the NDP party with him. Now the old tax-and-spend NDP are back, Mr.

Speaker. This NDP government under the current Premier takes us back not to–wait for it–not to the 1990s but to the 1980s, where we are reminded of the tax-and-spend days of Howard Pawley and his government. Mr. Speaker, the NDP government introduced a so-called five-year plan that does nothing to move our province forward. The only thing it will do is increase the debt, run further deficits and protect the salaries of the 19 members of Cabinet in opposite. Mr. Speaker, will they just admit, now that Gary Doer is gone, the old days of the NDP are alive and well in Manitoba? * (13:50) Hon.

Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the member opposite didn't want us to look back at the '90s. Today, she's looking back at the '80s. You know, Mr. Speaker–you–Manitobans have to look back at the '90s and what the Conservatives did. And if they look back at the '90s, you–we all know that under their plan, we would have this balanced in one year and that would mean cuts to everything. It would mean nurses would be fired. It would mean teachers would be laid off. There would not be nurses at the bedside.

There wouldn't be police officers on the street, because the members opposite have said that they would balance in one year. Mr. Speaker, we have taken a more reasonable approach and we have put in place a five-year plan. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, the only person in this Manitoba Legislature are–that has taken us back to the 1980s is this Minister of Finance with the introduction of Bill 31. Shame on her. Gone is the moderate wing, Mr. Speaker, of the NDP party. What we have now is the old Howard Pawley government attempting to dress themselves in sheep's clothing, but it's not working.

Manitobans know that the old NDP is back, with the current Premier (Mr. Selinger) at the helm. Why are they insisting on taking our province back to the 1980s? Why are they forcing future generations of Manitobans to clean up their mess, just like Howard Pawley did? Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, that would be their plan. Our plan is to move Manitoba forward. We have listened to Manitobans and we are reflecting in this budget what Manitobans told us. Manitobans told us the most important thing they could have is a job.

Manitobans told us that we should be investing in the stimulus package to keep our economy going. Manitobans told us that we should have a plan on how we would ride out this recession and come into balance in a few years.

1772 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 Mr. Speaker, that's what we've done. We are moving Manitoba forward. We are making investments. And the members opposite have moved–voted against every one of those initiatives. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, the only plan this government has is to increase our debt, run further deficits and protect their own Cabinet ministers' salaries. Mr. Speaker, why won't they come clean with Manitobans and tell them the truth, that the real reason that they are gut ting the balanced budget legislation in our province is because they never believed in it in the first place.

And now that Gary Doer is gone, and gone–they've gone back to the old style of NDP politics. Will they just admit it and come clean with Manitobans? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, we have listened to Manitobans and we've recognized that Manitobans think it's important that we protect our front-line services, that we keep nurses in hospitals, teachers in schools, police officers on the streets, providing Manitobans with services and protecting those services. Manitobans also want us to invest in stimulus, and we are doing that.

We are moving Manitoba forward, and we have a plan whereby we will ride out this recession that the members opposite don't even think exists or won't acknowledge that it exists, and we will come back into balance, and Manitobans will have the education and the training and the skills they need to move us forward into that new economy as we, as this government, move Manitoba forward. Provincial Debt Increase Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the minister talks about protecting front-line services and, yet, they're cutting schools, they're cutting programs for addictions, they're cutting adult education in Portage la Prairie, they're freezing salaries of public-sector workers, and they have failed to enter into an agreement that was signed on Friday that enhances the mobility of teachers and nurses and other public-sector professionals to the west of us, making those provinces a more attractive place for them to go and work. Mr. Speaker, their policies are threatening front-line services as debt increases.

I want to ask the Premier: Why is he putti ng at risk the future of front-line services by allowing Manitoba's debt to grow at an unsustainable rate? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member talks about labour mobility. It was this government that led a Canada-wide initiative to increase labour mobility all across the country. The members opposite said it would never get done. They were wrong again.

The members opposite thought it was fine to have 13 and a half cents on the dollar in their budget to pay for the debt, but they have a problem when our debt payments are 6 cents on the dollar, more than 50 percent better than theirs, Mr. Speaker. On every single count, on every single metric, our performance is better than their performance during the recessionary period.

And our plan to move Manitoba forward involves protecting front-line services, investing in key assets that will build the future of this province, including schools, including universities, including infrastructure like roads, water and sewer, and public schools as well, and creating better opportunities for training within this province, which is why we've given 2.95 percent to public schools and over 4.3 percent to post-secondary institutions. And every one of those resources will be voted against by members opposite, which shows their true colours. Mr. McFadyen: Well, Mr.

Speaker, what we're voting against is the largest debt increase in Manitoba's history. That's what we're voting against. Mr. Speaker, the reality is that the debt that he's referring to from the late 1980s was debt that was run up under his ideological cousin's government. The debt was built up, interest rates went up, and they're failing today to learn the lessons of history, that when debt gets too high and rates start to rise, as they appear to be, this poses a threat to front-line services. So they're–all they're interested in today, Mr.

Speaker, is what is in their short-term interests, protecting salaries, increasing spending at an unsustainable rate, no concern about the future and where this is going to leave the next generation of Manitobans. I want to ask the Premier today: Will he admit that he's failed the next generation of Manitobans and will he withdraw this terrible budget?

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1773 Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, Moody's, in December 24th, indicated that in Manitoba they–we have a strong track record of fiscal prudence. This fiscal prudence, combined with a strong provincial economic performance relative to the rest of the country, ensures strong debt-servicing ability, supporting the province's high investment grade rating. Mr. Speaker, Conservative governments at the federal level and at the provincial level are following similar plans to what we're following in Manitoba.

They're taking a progressive approach to rebalancing, coming out of the recession, while investing in key assets, both hard assets and people assets, which is exactly what we're doing in Manitoba. Only the members opposite want to return to the 1930s and to the 1990s, where their solution to every problem was to slash, cut and burn, and then blame those people when they were unhappy. Mr. McFadyen: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it's unbelievable he would say that when we consider the number of public-sector employees who are coming to support our party and sharing advice on how we move forward with an innovative and progressive public sector. The reality is that what we have with this NDP government is a command-and-control, bureaucratic, wasteful spending NDP government just like the NDP governments of old.

And I want to ask the Premier why it is that he is increasing the debt over such an extended period of time to unsustainable levels when the federal government is bringing their stimulus program to a close within the next 10 months, Mr. Speaker. This government plans to go another four years, even as the GDP is at 2.5 percent or 3 percent. The recession ended last year. The feds are bringing their stimulus program to a close and returning to a policy of fiscal responsibility. Why are they carrying on with a policy of fiscal recklessness? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, I think the member completely missed the federal budget. Their plan is to return to balance over six years. Our plan is to return to balance over five years. Their debt-to-GDP ratio at the federal level is higher than ours. And yes, we have partnered on stimulus programs. That has been one of the great success stories in Canada. Governments of all political stripes, provincial and federal, have joined together for a stimulus program. Only the members opposite have been opposed to that, and they have been consistently opposed to that.

They wanted to return to the draconian days of the '90s, the Bennett buggy days of the 1930s when they solved all problems by reducing and laying people off, by cutting services and then blaming those people when they complained about it. That's their approach. It's draconian. It's right-wing. And it doesn't work; that's the most important thing. It didn't work in the '90s and it didn't work in the '30s. Everybody across the country, regardless of political stripe, knows that except the members opposite. * (14:00) Cochlear Implant Program Funding Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): In Estimates the Minister of Health confirmed that, despite a 1999 election promise by Gary Doer to cut senior bureaucrats in the Department of Health, the number of assistant deputy ministers under this government has actually increased from three to six. They have enough money to double the size of the senior bureaucracy, but they won't fund a cochlear implant program in Manitoba so that patients who are deaf would be able to hear.

I'd like to ask the Minister of Health: Why has she got the money to double the bureaucracy in her department, but she has no money for the cochlear implant program here? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I can confirm for the House that in 1998-99, in Manitoba Health, there were 1,416 staff. Today it's sitting at 1,191, which is 224 fewer positions. So let's just put those facts on the record at the beginning of this discussion. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Oswald: I seem to have hit a nerve regarding the member's arithmetic. I would say further, Mr.

Speaker, that there are a number of programs, excellent programs like, for example, the cochlear implant program that the member raises, that would be significantly important to a number of Manitobans. That particular program is under active review. We know that during the recessionary times in the past, the members opposite froze their spending. We're looking forward at making strategic

1774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 investments, and the cochlear implant program is under review. Mrs. Driedger: The Minister of Health has doubled the ADMs in her department from three to six. She also confirmed in Estimates that she has six political staff in her office. Past ministers have had far less than that. So she really has politicized her office, Mr. Speaker, yet she can't find money for deaf people. All provinces except Saskatchewan have cochlear implant programs. So Manitobans are forced to fly to other provinces for this implant.

So, can the Minister of Health tell us why she can find money to hire six political staff in her office, but she can't find money to help deaf people? Ms. Oswald: Well, Mr. Speaker, and again to make it very clear that Manitoba does not yet have its own cochlear implant program, but Manitoba Health funds individuals to go and get the surgeries. So to suggest that we're not assisting people is just factually inaccurate. Further, Mr.

Speaker, we had a lengthy discussion about a variety of viewpoints on how to serve the public, how to respond to calls to our office, how to respond to letters, to e-mails, how to respond to requests from political staffers, from members opposite. It has been my choice to be more responsive to the public and to have more staff doing intake and on the front line. That was not their choice. That was painfully obvious. Certainly, we have worked to bring down the number of people in the Department of Health, transition services to the front line, and we're going to continue to work to be responsive for Manitobans.

Mrs. Driedger: This Minister of Health has absolutely no credibility after what she did after Brian Sinclair died. Mr. Speaker, specialists have been trying to get a surgical cochlear implant program here for years. Dr. Brian Blakely, an otolaryngologist, tells us that it is very hard for deaf adults and children to fly to other provinces, that tests are repeated, care is fragmented and follow-up is poor. The wait list for implantation is now two and a half years. There are 29 patients waiting for implantation and 50 people waiting to be seen.

These numbers would drop significantly if we had a surgical implant program in Manitoba. So why does she have enough money to double the number of ADMs in her office, to hire six political staff, but there's no money for deaf patients here? Ms. Oswald: It is for the reasons that the member cited, that that program is under active review. Let's be very clear, Mr. Speaker, that during difficult economic times, it is about making choices.

We know that when the members opposite faced difficult economic times, they made three very distinctly clear choices: they fired a thousand nurses; they cut the spaces in medical school; and they froze health capital. Mr. Speaker, we saw a record-breaking increase in nurses in Manitoba last year, according to the colleges, at 498. We've increased the spaces to medical school to 110 from when they slashed them down to 70, and we're moving forward on health capital projects. It is about choices. It is about investments. We believe health care to be our No. 1 priority.

The member from Carman and his leader dismiss health care out of hand and say they're going to focus on other things. They think Manitobans will forget those dark days of the '90s, they won't. On-Line Gaming Government Support Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Mr. Speaker, Manitobans know that the NDP government has a spending addiction. Now to finance their spending problem, the NDP are starting an on-line gambling Web site.

Can the Minister responsible for Lotteries tell the House why his government is so desperate for revenue that they need to start taking more money out of Manitoba's pockets through on-line gambling to feed their own addiction to spending? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Well, Mr. Speaker, the member is misinformed. We've stated publicly it's under consideration, that no decision has been made. There are more than 2,000 on-line gaming sites across the world. Other jurisdictions, Atlantic Canada, British Columbia, already have on-line gaming.

Québec is moving in that direction. Mr. Speaker, we're always looking for the appropriate balance in terms of gaming, and I do want to note, by the way, that the last year the Tories were in office, they had 3.7 percent of their revenues coming from gaming. It's currently 3 percent, so they

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1775 should not lecture anyone in terms of the balance. We're looking for the balance and we'll find it–we'll find it in terms of on-line gaming. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, this NDP government wouldn't need to launch an on-line gambling Web site if they could manage their own spending addiction. But they need more money for west-side bipole, more money for e nhanced ID cards, more money for football stadiums, the list goes on and on. I'd like to remind the minister of his own comments on gambling.

The member for Thompson said, and I quote: In this House, once again, we are seeing revenue come before the social problems that can occur from gambling. I do not believe you promote alcohol and I do not believe you promote gambling. I believe there are enough people out there who are going to gamble without your making it a subject at these marketing events. End of quote. So I'd like to ask the minister: When did he change his mind? Was it because he realized he and his government are fast running out of finances and they need to–a new revenue stream, and fast? Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, I can certainly quote back what the member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) said when she was minister and brought in the two casinos, but some of us don't live in the 1990s. Well, we know, on this side, members opposite live in the 1890s anyway. So the member opposite is clearly misinformed. We've said we're looking at all of the specific aspects. There are 2,000 sites currently. We're–we've looked for the balance, Mr . Speaker, no decision has been made, we certainly welcome feedback from Manitobans, and we'll be looking at a decision later on this year.

As I said, ther e are 2,000 sites that are out there already which are in terms of on-line gaming. The real question here is whether we are part of a Canadian regulated approach. Some on the addiction side, by the way, have already indicated that they support that. We will listen to all views in the committee. We have not made a decision on this yet. Riverdale Health Centre Project Status Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): And the Minister of Health said earlier that it's all about making choices. Well, Mr. Speaker, the residents of the town of Rivers have grown tired of this government's broken promises.

Since I was first elected, the Rivers Health Action Committee has been waiting for the Health Minister of the day to show some leadership and to provide supports to the phase 2 renovations to the Riverdale Health Centre hospital can begin and a medical clinic can be opened in the community. Seven years later, absolutely no commitment from this minister. Was this a project that was cut from this government's budget this year? After seven years of waiting, can the minister indicate when the community of Rivers can expect these renovations to begin?

When will she take the initiative to ensure that Rivers' residents can have access to health care services that they deserve, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, it occurs to me that in the first few questions today we were being chided for spending money but, you know, now there's a request to invest. * (14:10) I can tell the member that we have met with the people from Rivers. We are working with the regional health authority. We know that we've had very good success in working with the community of Rivers and the facility on the rehab program.

It's been very successful, and there's a view to see what more that we can do in that area. We do know that, regarding capital spending, we have to prioritize, and we're working on that. That's what I've told the people from Rivers, and we're going to continue to work with them. Mrs. Rowat: And again she wants to talk about priorities–cut three ADMs, three cut–cut three political staff, and we have a health centre. Mr. Speaker, the community has raised over $500,000 to put towards this project, more than the 10 percent required from most capital projects.

People who have committed dollars have passed away waiting for this project to happen. Is this how the minister treats hardworking community members who have taken the initiative, raised the money and are asking for some leadership from this NDP government, or again, is this a project that this government has cut? Ms. Oswald: No, it is not. Mr. Speaker: I recognized the honourable Minister for Health. She gave a quic k answer. Now I have to recognize you to make sure that the Hansard records everything.

1776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, during a meeting with the minister on January 11th, the community leaders were told to wait for the budget to see where this capital project may fit in. I'd like to ask the minister: Was she talking about the budget for her government that was just tabled, next year's budget, the budget after that, or again, is this one of the projects the NDP government has cut? And again, I recommend her cut three ADMs, cut three political staff, and the community can have their clinic, Mr. Speaker. Ms.

Oswald: And again I'll say to the members opposite that as we work our way through a difficult economic time we're not going to make the choices that they made. We're not going to issue a press release that says we have no choice, we have to freeze health capital. We're not going to do that. We're going to continue to work and move forward with communities. It's interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that while the member for Minnedosa is calling out for a capital investment, the Health critic, the member for Charleswood (Mrs.

Driedger), stood up in this House not long ago and said, why are you wasting all this money on bricks and mortar? She herself said– [interjection] I seem to have st ruck another nerve. I don't think they want us to be reminded that the member for Charleswood said that we were wasting money spending on bricks and mortar and that we shouldn't be doing that. I wonder if maybe they could caucus and work this out. On-Line Gaming Government Support Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, on the issue of on-line gaming, the government is looking at a piece of the on-line gambling pie, and I venture that the government's current financial state, the potential 30 to 40 million dollars that might come in, that they could grab from Manitobans using the service, might seem appealing. In this Legislature the Minister responsible for Lotteries once stood up to chastise the then- Conservative government for taking a fast-forward approach driven by revenue, forgetting that there's a direct link between gambling and increased crime.

I ask the minister: Does he have the support of the rest of the government and the Cabinet in his taking a fast-forward approach to on-line gambling? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I don't know if perhaps the member was not listening earlier, but we have made no decision. Other jurisdictions have moved in this direction, and I mentioned them: the Atlantic provinces, British Columbia, also Québec has made the announcement they're proceeding in that direction.

We will indeed look at all sides, and the evolution in terms of gaming is responsible gaming, Mr. Speaker. We had a period in–of time in Canadian history where gambling was a criminal offence equivalent to a time when drinking was covered by prohibition. We have seen some significant changes over the time. And I want to indicate that one of things we've indicated as a government is we're looking also the advice of the addictions community. And there are some in the addictions community who've already said that they feel it's better to have a regulated site than the 2,000 unregulated sites.

But I want to make it very clear to the member opposite, we have not made a decision in terms of on-line gaming, and we will listen to Manitobans and their input. Mr. Gerrard: Given that the government is once again looking at selling Manitobans out in order to get some new revenue to help buffer their disastrous financial circumstances, Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister if he'll give Manitobans a direct say in whether they want on-line gambling in Manitoba, or will he push it through without giving Manitobans a direct say?

I'd like to remind the minister that, in 1996, he was the one calling for local referendums to be held around Manitoba. Will the minister take his lead foot off the accelerator and allow Manitobans a direct say in the issue of on-line gambling by having a referendum before jumping into a situation which, as he pointed out some time ago, will increase social problems and increase crime? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I'm a little bit concerned that the member doesn't understand what the Internet is all about–the World Wide Web. There are 2,000 sites that operate internationally.

Clearly, the member does not understand that there is on-line gaming right now. It is beyond the jurisdiction of Manitoba or, indeed, of Canada. So the real issue

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1777 here is whether Manitoba should be part of the regulated Canadian alternative. So I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, it's obvious the member himself is not aware of the fact that you cannot have a referendum on a local initiative. This is the World Wide Web. It's the year 2010, and I want to mention again, this is an issue that we're dealing with in terms of the current reality, looking to the balance in terms of social gaming. Brian Sinclair Death WRHA Release of Information Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, the Brian Sinclair tragedy actually sent shock waves across Canada, as many wondered how it was possible that someone could literally die in emergency after waiting for 34 hours and not receive any attention. There's been a great deal of concern from members of the family in terms of to what degree the WRHA has been stonewalling and not providing the information that's necessary in order for them to be full participants in any sort of inquest the government is actually calling for, Mr. Speaker.

My question to the Minister of Health, who has taken great strides at trying to confuse and cover up the incident, Mr. Speaker, and has been dragged into the need to have the inquest in the first place–I'm going to ask the Minister of Health if she would, in fact, do the honourable thing here by instructing the WHRA to, in fact, release the information that it has that's pertaining to the incident in question, and ensure that all the stakeholders are provided that information immediately, including the family members of the Sinclair family. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, and I can inform the member that immediately following the tragedy–and it was a tragedy, regardless of what kinds of political games have gone on since then. We need to remember that this was a tragedy, no matter how many times people say things that aren't true. It doesn't matter. We need to focus on making sure that we never have such an incident ever happen again. But I can inform the member that, days after the tragedy, and when review s were under way, the WRHA committed to release everything to the inquest, and that's exactly what they're going to do. AgriRecovery Program Funding Mr.

Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, the past two years have been very trying times for farmers in the Interlake. From a political perspective, this crisis was of interest to members opposite in the past weeks, but they seem to have fallen strangely silent this week–in fact, no questions on agriculture. Rural members have got up to talk about gambling and firing of health-care workers, but getting a crop in the ground seems to have– [interjection] There you go. Pathetic. Shame on you. Shame on all of you. On behalf of the farmers who want to get a crop in the ground, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the member–or the Minister of Agriculture to explain the details of the AgriRecovery program that was announced last week. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Finally, a question from somebody interested in rural Manitoba. * (14:20) Mr. Speaker, I was real ly pleased–I was really pleased a few weeks ago to join with a number of our caucus members, including the Premier (Mr.

Selinger), to meet with farmers in the Arborg area to talk about the fact that they lost a couple of crop years in a row and then approached the federal government to ask if they could co-operate with us in an AgriRecovery announcement, Mr. Speaker. And I'm really pleased that Minister Gerry Ritz joined with us to announce $2.5 million in support for northern Interlake assistance–that's $15 unseeded acres–for farmers who lost two crop years in a row. This is in addition, Mr.

Speaker, to provincial support to the tune of $5 million through the Forage Assistance Program; $10 million through the Forage Restoration Assistance Program; $12 million through the Livestock Feed Assistance Program; Excess Moisture, $21 million; Disaster Financial Assistance, $3 million; and together with the federal government, AgriStability advance payments. Finally– Mr. Speaker: Order.

1778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 AgriRecovery Program Compensation Eligibility Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Well, here's another question from someone that's interested in rural Manitoba. On Friday, that very funding announcement you announced in the Interlake, I just want to ask: Why was the West Lake region of the province ignored in the funding announcement? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, it's quite the day when a Tory has to stand up and blow his own horn when nobody else will. Mr.

Speaker, we looked with the–along with the federal government, on the advice of people, farmers in the Interlake area and other parts of the province, we looked very, very specifically at the numbers, the numbers of farmers who lost two successive crop years in a row. We determined that the R.M.s in the northern part of the In terlake had suffered an extraordinary loss two years in a row.

We believed, along with our federal partne rs in this program, that those numbers indicated that that's where we need to target our money, where it could do the most good, so that those farmers wouldn't miss out on yet a third year of seeding. We want to make sure that we went to where the money would make the greatest difference, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Jan and Tracy Bassa Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): It gives me great pleasure to rise today to recognize the achievements of two young farmers, Jan and Tracy Bassa.

Jan and Tracy Bassa, along with Jan's brother, came to La Broquerie from Holland nearly 20 years ago. Together they bought a 480-acre farm with 70 cows. This year, all of their hard work and innovation was recognized. Jan and Tracy were named this year's Outstanding Young Farmers. Since arriving and settling in La Broquerie, the Bassas have expanded their operation to include a 100,000-square-foot addition, a 50-cow rotary milking parlour–the first of its kind in North America–barn space for 600 milk cows, sick and dry cow pens, a 50-stall calf barn and a 3.8-million gallon slurry storage unit.

Additionally, the farm employs six full-time and four part-time employees who, according to the Bassas, are treated like family. The Outstanding Young Farmers program aims to discover, celebrate and recognize progress and excellence in Canadian agriculture. Jan and Tracy now move to the national competition as Manitoba's representatives. Nominees are judged on the progress made over the course of their farming career in all aspects of farming from soil, water and energy conservation to crop and livestock production to financial and management practices and community contributions. In addition to farming, Mr.

Speaker, the couple is involved in community sports and Tracy is a member of a parent advisory council at their children's school and works part-time at Bethesda Hospital in Steinbach. Tracy and Jan have four young children, ages two to 11. I invite all members of this House to join me in congratulating Jan and Trac y for their co ntributions to our community and wish them all the best in representing Manitoba at the national competition in the fall. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MS Awareness Month Ms. Erna Braun (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, multiple sclerosis affects the lives of thousands of Manitobans every day.

Whether it is a beloved friend or family member or even oneself who is diagnosed with MS, the effects of this complex disease is felt throughout many households in our province. Yet much about this condition remains uncertain. MS is a chronic, often disabling disease affecting an estimated 2,700 Manitobans. It is the most common neurological disease among young adults in Canada. Its symptoms vary widely and they lead to problems with numbness, co-ordination, vision and speech, as well as extreme fatigue and even paralysis. It remains–its causes remain unknown, and at this time there is no known cure for MS.

To increase public understanding of this debilitating condition, Manitoba will be observing MS Awareness Month during the month of May. This is a time when we can do our small part to help find a cure for this condition, whether it is learning more about this illness, donating to MS research or volunteering in any of the activities put on by the MS Society of Canada.

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1779 The fight against MS is no losing battle. While many Manitobans continue to live with the disease, thousands of others are putting their efforts towards finding a cure or easing the lives of those diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. The MS Society of Canada, founded in 1948, is the only voluntary organization in Canada that supports both MS research and services for people with MS and for their families.

It has provided more than $80 million for MS research during the past 50 years, as well as helped deliver a wide range of programs, services and social action for people with MS. The dedicated and committed staff, supporters and volunteers at the MS Society of Canada, Manitoba Division, are the ones who make this all possible. Support for their e fforts is necessary if we would like to one day find a cure for MS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ione Thorkelsson Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Each year the Canada Council and the Governor General of Canada collaborate to honour excellence in visual and media arts.

The Governor General's Awards in Visual and Media Arts are Canada's leading distinctions of excellence in these artistic disciplines. This year Roseisle-based glass sculptor, Ione Thorkelsson, received a prestigious Saidye Bronfman Award for fine crafts. Ms. Thorkelsson was nominated by Dr. Stephen Borys, director of the Winnipeg Art Gallery. Ione Thorkelsson hails from Roseisle, Manitoba, just west of Carman. She is a pioneer in glass artistry in Manitoba, operating her own studio on the edge of a prairie escarpment since 1973.

Ione works primarily off-hand blowing techniques, and has created her own signature cast glass technique, which she produced since 1983. Ms. Thorkelsson studied architecture at the University of Manitoba and continued on to study glass at Sheridan College School of Design in Mississauga, Ontario. Ione Thorkelsson's works of art are repeatedly shown at many Canadian venues, as well as the United States, Europe and Hong Kong. Her visual creations are derived from current notions of the past and current speculation of the future.

Everyday discoveries outside her door, such as wings, skulls, spines and roots, are recast into objects of inspiration. Ione was inducted into the Royal Academy of Arts in 2007 and designed the Blizzard Awards for the Manitoba Motion Picture Industry Association. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate Ms. Thorkelsson on her creative achievements and receiving the Saidye Bronfman award. I wish her success as she continues to create visual art that is beautiful and innovative. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Canadian Navy 100th Anniversary Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans have been an integral part of Canadian Navy operations for most of the last century, yet few are aware of this illustrious history. Today, the 4th of May, 2010, Canada celebrates the 100th anniversary of the Navy. I am proud to rise and congratulate our devoted men–Navy men and women for their years of service. When the Canadian Navy was officially inaugurated in 1910, many young volunteers from communities like Winnipeg, Carman, Portage, The Pas and Dauphin set out to join the Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve.

Manitoba welcomed its own Naval Reserve unit in 1923, and it was later renamed Her Majesty's Canadian Ship Chippawa. The connection between th e flat prairies and the call to the sea may not be immediately obvious, yet Winnipeg's Naval Reserve was Canada's most successful Navy recruitment centre during World War II, drawing almost 300 officers and nearly 8,000 men. In the following decades, HMCS Chippawa has continued to distinguish herself in times of war and crisis, both at home and abroad.

Its troops have provided domestic assistance during floods, and it was always one of the first units to provide support during naval missions defending the interests of Canada. * (14:30) The bravery, spirit and dedication of the men and women of HMCS Chippawa continue a proud tradition of Navy service in Canada. "Service" is the motto of HMCS Chippawa, and it accurately reflects the proud history and continued efforts of HMCS Chippawa reservists in Canadian naval operations. The Canadian Navy's motto "Ready Aye Ready,"

1780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 remains fitting today as our Navy continues to contribute to global peace, security and the protection of Canadian sovereignty in our home waters and around the globe. Mr. Speaker, many Manitobans are among the countless Canadians who have served our country in naval operations around the world over the last century. All Manitobans recognize and honour the significant contributions made by all of our veterans. It gives me great pleasure on this day to thank the Canadian Navy troops for their 100 years of dedicated service. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Bill Clement Mrs.

Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, and it is with great sorrow that I stand in the House today to mark the passing of a constituent of mine, Bill Clement. A dedicated public servant, Mr. Clement was a long-time Winnipeg city councillor, serving the people of Charleswood-Tuxedo since 1983. Affectionately known as the "Mayor of Charleswood," Mr. Clement was someone who served his constituents with both honour and passion. His long tenure on city council is a testament to his commitment to the issues and the people of Charleswood-Tuxedo. Mr.

Clement was effectiv e as a city councillor for his ability to work so well with his colleagues, crossing ideological boundaries in order to do what is right for his constituents and for the people of Winnipeg. He occupied key roles in not only the current municipal administration, but also the administrations of Glen Murray and Susan Thompson, where he has sat on the mayor's executive policy committee and as chairman of both the finance and public works committees.

He was known for his encyclopedic knowledge of civic affairs and was committed to ensuring government remained responsible, efficient and effective for the people it served. While an accomplished politician and civic leader, Mr. Clement was also a successful businessman as a partner in his family's business, Aqua Pleasure Pools. On behalf of my husband Jason, myself and the constituents of Tuxedo, I want to express my deepest sympathy and condolences to his wife Debbie, his children and grandchildren, and the many friends and supporters who will miss him very much. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Bill Blaikie (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before announcing government business for today, I would like to announce that pursuant to rule 31(8), that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be one put forward by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Ms. Brick). The title of the resolution is Manitoba Arts and Cultural Organizations. Mr.

Speaker: Pursuant to rule 31(8), it has been announced that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be the one put forward by the honourable member for St. Norbert. The title of the resolution is Manitoba Arts and Cultural Organizations. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on further House business. Mr. Blaikie: At this time, then, the House will resolve itself into the consideration of Estimates. Mr. Speaker: Okay.

Orders of the day, government business, we will be going into Estimates, and in the appropriate rooms: in the Chamber will be Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, followed by Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade; room 255 will be Infrastructure and Transportation; and room 254 will be Conservation. The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Conservation.

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1781 Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Bill Blaikie (Min ister of Conservation): Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman. I would like to begin with a few words of introduction prior to our review of the departmental Estimates for Manitoba Conservation. In Manitoba, we believe that the twin goals of protecting the environment and growing a sustainable economy can and must be achieved simultaneously, and we will work to find the optimum relationship between growth and sustainability.

I will start with a brief overview of the wide variety of programs and services the department provides to Manitobans, first of all, considering parks. During these challenging economic times, families may be looking for recreation opportunities closer to home. To provide more opportunities for Manitobans to take advantage of the province's great outdoors, we continue to wa ive the entrance fees to provincial parks. This was a successful initiative we put in place last year, and we decided to continue to offer it for this year.

Campers have again responded enthusiastically by setting a new record on the opening day of reservation bookings. Our successful made-in- Manitoba parks reservation system is again receiving record volumes of contacts. Our system is receiving bookings which are 20 percent higher than last year's record-breaking opening day. Mr. Chairperson, 2010 is a special year, as it marks the 50th anniversary of the first parks act and celebrates the millions of people who have enjoyed Manitoba parks over the years.

In honour of the 50th anniversary of the parks system in Manitoba, the Department of Conservation continues to support Manitobans' enjoyment of their summers by making upwards of $50 million in improvements for the 210-2011 season. Capital improvements will soon be on the way in Birds Hill Park, Grand Beach, Hecla/Grindstone Provincial Park, Winnipeg Beach, West Hawk, Nutimik Lake, Wellman Lake and Asessippi Provincial Park. And, as you know, we have introduced legislation that would secure the future of the historic and culturally important Upper Fort Garry site.

The Upper Fort Garry Heritage Provincial Park Act will ensure that the restorative and interpretive work of the Friends of Upper Fort Garry can continue. In terms of protected areas, our government continues to protect important natural areas in the province. In addition to the three new protected areas announced last year, we have recently announced two new protected areas in the boreal tundra transition area in northern Manitoba.

These are the Kastatamagan Wildlife Management Area, which houses important polar bears and caribou habitat, and the Kastatamagan Sipi Wildlife Management Area, home to a globally significant bird area. These new protected areas will have the Province meet its commitments to increase the number of ecological reserves and designate new wildlife management areas in support of a healthy and diverse ecosystem. Both areas fall within the boreal forest and also contribute to Manitoba's wetland protection and related climate change commitments.

It is estimated that these two protected areas alone store approximately 179 million tonnes of carbon in their peat lands and soil. This is the equivalent to 650 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. Together with Water Stewardship, we continue to invest in the protection and restoration of wetlands, including the restoration of Manitoba's largest marshes; Netley and Delta Marsh. In terms of Manitoba forests, as you know, we previously announced the phasing out of commercial logging in 79 of 80 of Manitoba's provincial parks as an important step towards the conservation of our province's biodiversity.

In partnership with industry, we have moved to end long-term contracts for logging companies in provincial parks and have moved logging activity outside of parks. Building on the 1.1 million trees planted by our Trees for Tomorrow program, since 2008, over 2 million additional seedlings are to be planted this summer as part of the 2010 program. Trees for Tomorrow supports many school projects and initiatives in smaller communities, including several First Nations communities.

Trees for Tomorrow projects include completion of SMART Park at the University of Manitoba, the Red River Floodway, Fort Whyte Alive, Graymont Mines and the Brady Road Landfill planting projects. To protect our valuable forest resource and to increase our firefighting e fficiency, Manitoba's fire program will see a major upgrade of its equipment with the arrival this fall of the first of our four new Bombardier 415 turbopro p water-bomber aircraft. This major fleet upgrade will enhance our capacity to

1782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 ensure the safety of the fire crews and to protect communities that may be affected by a fire hazard. In terms of strength and enforcement for on-site waste-water systems, the department continues with an enhanced inspection program to identify failing on-site waste-water management systems and take appropriate enforcement and compliance action. This initiative is intended to identify problematic areas and minimize failing on-site waste-water systems as a source of nutrients that negatively affect the water quality of Lake Winnipeg.

After extensive consultations, new on-site waste- water management systems came into effect last October. The amendments restrict the use of a disposal field for new systems and sensitive areas, Crown land cottage developments, provincial parks and portions of the Red River corridor. The amendments were also designed to eliminate existing sewage ejectors at the time of property transfer or subdivision development. On April 1–in April, rather, I proposed a number of further amendments to the on-site system, aimed at addressing concerns that had been raised.

These amendments allow for sewage ejectors to be retained at the time of property tr ansfer, under a specific set of limited circumstances. We remain committed to providing technical support for municipalities on water and waste-water projects. In terms of Environment Act amendments, important updates were made to The Environment Act last year. Environment officers gained expanded powers of intervention; environmental licensing was improved, and protection measures were strengthened with these new amendments.

In order to fulfil these new obligations and added responsibilities, my department has hired new environment officers this year and over the past three years. These officers are front-line positions in priority areas to protect the environment for all Manitobans. We will be providing for stronger environmental protection, improving the environmental licensing process, and better addressing climate change by ensuring that greenhouse gas emissions from a proposed project would be considered before a licence is issued.

In terms of the World Heritage Site and East Side Planning Initiative, last year we passed The East Side Traditional Lands Planning and Special Protected Areas Act so that First Nations on the east side of Lake Winnipeg could play a major role in ensuring better protection, management and development in their traditional areas. It is the first legislation of its kind in Canada, enabling First Nations to develop land-use plans in conjunction with government to develop and provide interim and permanent legal protection of traditional areas on the east side of Lake Winnipeg.

By supporting east-side First Nations communities to create and implement their own land use plans for their traditional areas, the legislation also enables the effort to establish a UNESCO World Heritage Site, a designation that would be based on both the cultural and ecological significance of the area.

To support the bid to designate part of the Manitoba-Ontario boreal forest as a UNESCO World Heritage Site, we have increased Manitoba's annual funding to the Pimachiowin Aki Corporation through grants for development of the nomination document, a video, and efforts to promote the site and contributions to the Pimachiowin Aki World Heritage Fund. The corporation will also receive income from investment of Manitoba's $10-million contribution to the fund and from other contributions starting in 2012. In our bid for a World Heritage Site, we must describe how the site will be managed, including sources of funding.

This w ill enable the corporation to make a stronger case for Manitoba's boreal forest to stand alongside the pyramids of Egypt, the Amazon, and other renowned UNESCO World Heritage sites. The boreal forest plays a vital role–two minutes; oh, they didn't tell me there was a time limit–the boreal forest plays a vital role in reducing the impact of climate change–pardon? An Honourable Member: You can always ask for leave. Mr. Blaikie: –and is also home to a diversity of species and some of the world's largest remaining herds of woodland caribou.

Manitoba launched its woodland caribou strategy in 2006 in co-operation with First Nations communities in northern and eastern regions. These animals are an important part of the east side forest and are being recognized in efforts to plan and commemorate the area. Well, Mr. Chairman, I had other things to say; I'm not going to get it all in, in two minutes, so I'll just end, then, with expressing my appreciation for the staff of the Department of Conservation, and

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1783 particularly for the service of the now-retired Deputy Minister Don Cook, who has served the government of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba for 35 years. I had the pleasure of working with him only briefly, but I could tell even from that brief exposure to Mr. Cook that he had been an exceptional public servant. * (14:50) And, having said that, with the last Cabinet and departmental reorganization that occurred in 2009, Manitoba Conservation welcomed to our ranks the addition of the Climate Change branch and also Green Manitoba.

And so I welcome the staff of these two groups and look forward to working with them. So I've–Mr. Chairman, thank you for letting me briefly introduce only a very few of the programs, in fact, fewer than I had intended, which the Conservation Department undertakes on behalf of Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Arthur Virden, have any opening comments? Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman.

Well I just want to open up by welcoming the minister to his new portfolio as well and for congratulating staff, both present and past, for the work that they do on a regular basis in this whole area. This is one of the most important parts of Manitoba as far as I'm concerned. And I think it's an honour to be asked by my leader to be the critic for this area as well and I look forward to continuing to work on a number of projects together with the minister.

I know that–would have to reiterate what he said in his opening statement, that we need to look at growth opportunities and a balance of sustainability in this portfolio. I believe, throughout Manitoba, that's what we can do. We have to be very cognizant and aware of the natural surroundings that we have and make sure that we do everything we can to encourage their continued existence in their natural state wherever possible.

And I feel that after having 50 years in the parks system as well, I know we had a–and honoured that day in the House with statements by both the minister and myself in regards to the celebration of the 50 years of the parks in Manitoba. I appreciate the on-site waste-water management systems review, and we'll have some questions on that as well.

And also the caribou program that was brought in in 2006 and, obviously, this minister would have perhaps added to it, if he'd have been there at that time to bring it in and been able to get on to this portfolio earlier, have a better opportunity to deal with it than was–what was being done today. I know that there are whole hosts of areas here that I could get into and making comments, but I think that with the questions that I have, it will become aware of where t hose concerns are.

There will be others, because I don't know if we can get to them all today or tomorrow, if we have a couple of days of questions there. And I do want to say, though, that I do appreciate the minister's new-found zealous for listening to groups like AMM, Keystone Ag Producers, in regards to the changes that he's made on on-site waste-water management systems. I do understand that there was a large lobby in that area. He knows that I've asked questions in question period. He knows that people across the province were very concerned abou t his predecessor's stance on that area.

And I want to thank him for making some changes that will be at least amenable to many people who presently have ejectors. And there will still be some concerns that we'll get into, and I just want to close by saying, again, thanks for that consideration and look forward to working with the rest of–with the minister and the rest of the staff in areas of Conservation. And of course we've already done the–which the–Water Stewardship part of my Estimates with Minister Melnick as well. So thank you very much and we'll–I look forward to the questions. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is the last item considered for the department and the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 12.1.(

a) referenced in resolution 12.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Blaikie: I would like to introduce the Conservation staff that I have with me, beginning first with Fred Meier, the Deputy Minister of the Department of Conservation; Serge Scrafield, the

1784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 assistant deputy and assist ant deputy minister in Environmental and Stewardship Division; Lynn Zapshala-Kelln, assistant deputy minister in the Corporate and Services Division; Bruce Bremner, assistant deputy minister on the Regional Operations Division side; and Dan McInnis, a–one of the newest members of the staff who's come over from IEM with the reorganization that took place recently. Mr. Chairperson: Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of the department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr. Maguire: If I could, Mr.

Chairperson, I would suggest that we go on a global basis. Mr. Chairperson: Is it agreed to the question of how the department will follow in a global manner with all the resolutions to be passed once the questioning has been completed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Maguire: I wanted to just start today as well. I wanted to note that the–there have been cutbacks in some departments, and I know that the minister has inherited this department. He's had it six months, but he's been there long enough to have influence certainly in the budget of his department.

And I noticed that it was trimmed by 5 percent. Others–some others have been trimmed by perhaps a bit more than that overall. To take $7 million, roughly, out of the department is a concern, I think. And, of course, we're always looking at, as he said earlier, that I think it was a balance of fiscal responsibility and environmental sustainability in those areas. So I look forward to just having some discussions with him about that.

I think that the–you know, there's been a 21 percent reduction in funding for Environmental Stewardship, and I wondered if he can outline to me what are the primary sources of that cut. Mr. Blaikie: The reductions in terms of environmental stewardship go something like this, I might say to the honourable member. We–there was a reduction of $250,000 which was as a result of a deferral of a $250,000 payment to the WNO. It was a grant that was deferred to a subsequent year, which accounted for a $250,000 reduction. There was a $500,000 reduction on the pollution prevention side.

This reduction was due to non- recurring funding to support the Flin Flon soils improvement project. The city of Flin Flon will be completing the soil improvement project itself in 2010 with the funding provided to them last year. So, if I understand correctly, this is funding that was, in some sense, coming to an end in any event. The next–there was a $70,000 reduction to the International Institute for Sustainable Development, the IISD. This reduction applied to the annual work plan of government projects undertaken by the IISD because they do quite a bit of work for us.

So this wasn't to their core operating grant. This was just–it had to do with that they work for–the work they do for us beyond the core operating grant. The reduction will be spread proportionately across existing projects so as to limit the implication to each of the projects. * (15:00) So, in total, IISD receives $1,195,900 annually from the provincial government, of which 30 percent has been dedicated towards services provided back to government on items of priority through the development of an annual work plan, and that's where we found that $70,000 reduction.

Then there was a–this was a larger reduction, $1,186,000 reduction in the SDIF, the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund. Funding for the IISD grant is provided through the SDIF, for instance. This grant funding is consistent with the intent of the SDIF, which is to provide support to innovative projects, activities, in areas of the economy, the environment, human health and social well-being. There was a $115,000 reduction in climate change, reductions in operating due to less travel being required for the regional greenhouse gas initiatives.

So we're looking at ways to reduce our travel back and forth to meetings having to do with this particular topic and ef ficiencies gained through co-locating the offices of Green Manitoba, climate change and Innovation, Energy and Mines staff–so, again, some reorganizing of office space to achieve reductions in that regard. With respect to Green Manitoba, there was a $610,000 reduction, and this reduction is attributable to the special operating agency being able to realize other revenue opportunities to offset program delivery costs and thereby reduce the funding required from Conservation.

And then there were general operating reductions of about 58,000 and salary and benefit adjustments that amounted to an $85,000 reduction, all of which came to the total of $2,874,000.

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1785 Mr. Maguire: I noted with interest that the Administration's cut about three-quarters of a million in that package didn't see much change in staffing. I wonder if the minister can elaborate on just where those changes were made. I think the Estimates book shows a 9 percent reduction in Administration. Mr. Blaikie: Is the honourable member asking about the whole department or just that particular division? Mr. Maguire: No, just that particular–the Administration and Finance division, three-quarters of a million, as I understand. Mr. Blaikie: On the–in the budget

summary, under appropriation No. 12, there is an explanation of those cuts. So I'm not sure if th e member wants more than that, but what it does say in the explanation is that there's a $250,000 decrease, which is attributable to a reduction to the departmental legal budget, 2010-11 cost to be managed from within the remaining $151,000 budget and other program operating resources. So, you know, we looked at the–at that budget and felt that we could do more with less, so to speak.

And then there was–the rest of it is vacancy management having to do with staff turnover and library services, information technology services, workplace safety and health and risk management. Mr. Maguire: Yes, I know one of my colleagues has some questions tomorrow that will be getting back into staffing issues more and some questions in that regard. Today, though, I just wanted to say as well, congratulations to everyone in the department for the work you do at your ADM levels and those areas as well, deputy minister, welcome to this portfolio as well.

The one question I have on admin there is in the assistant deputy minister's Corporate Services here, your role in–because we only did this last week and you were, well, there in Water Stewardship as well. You're working for both departments. I'm just wondering if the minister can explain to me where the salaries are. Are they determined half-and-half out of each department or how are they–h ow is that area financed? Mr.

Blaikie: The ADM position is funded by Conservation, and then the group that works under the ADM, it's a group that works for both departments and the funding for that, for everything underneath the ADM, is split between the two departments. Mr. Maguire: Yes, and I see there's a vacancy in one assistant deputy minister's position in the Conservation program in the book at least anyway on page 5 in the flowchart, and I just wondered if you can indicate to me if that's being filled, and, if so, by whom? Mr.

Blaikie: That position is vacant as a result of the promotion of the person who formally held that position to the position of deputy minister. So, in the course of completing the reorganization that was triggered not only by the resignation of the deputy minister–not resignation, retirement rather–and the moving over of people from IEM, that position will ultimately be filled. Mr. Maguire: Yes, okay. I just want to move on and I'm looking at page 29, I believe.

Oh, before I do that, there was one other issue and it was congratulating the minister on being in a little more co-operative mood in regards to on-site waste water management systems than his predecessor, and I don't mean that as anything more than a compliment to you. But I wanted to talk about, you know, a statement that came out of the University of Manitoba today on another area that the previous minister had and that was in regards to moratoriums on hog facilities in Manitoba, in the eastern half of the province.

And there's an indication today from one of the scientists at the University of Manitoba here, a senior agribusiness and economics instructor in the Faculty of Agriculture, Charles Grant, was quoted today, I think, in the papers as saying that really the reason that they haven't heard much about the moratorium was because the hog cycle, as the minister's well aware for the publicity on it, has been on a downturn here for about three years.

In regards to that, it looks like it's picking up a little bit again now, and th ere are regulations that have been brought down on manure management, that sort of thing, through his department, which will put extra cost on some of these facilities to manage.

They may need to be able to expand to be able to bear the increased costs of these expanded lagoons and holding tanks to be able–so that they aren't, you know, spreading manure in the wintertime and those kinds of things. * (15:10) And I wonder if the minister can just answer for me or just provide me with his estimate of whether he can be as congenial, I guess, with this area of the

1786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 hog moratorium as he certainly has been in listening to the on-site waste-water management systems. An Honourable Member: Well, you know, when I'm persuaded that– Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister. Mr. Blaikie: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. I've got to get used to that. It's not like I'm trying to ignore you, you know. I say to the honourable member, well, I'm only, you know, agreeable when I think there's something to agree with.

And, you know, I was persuaded that– along with many others in the government, obviously I didn't do it all by myself–that there was a need for an amendment to the regulations with respect to on- site waste-water management. But I have met with groups that have raised this– similar concerns. You know, I met with the Manitoba Pork Council and others who were–raised concerns about the–and with the cap, you know. And at this time, we are not planning any changes in the regulations that we've announced or the time lines for their coming into effect. Mr.

Maguire: I had a call from the other day–and I'm not going to pursue–some of these I'd like to discuss with the minister longer, but I've got a number a topics I want to cover. If I get time, I'll come back to some of them. I had a call as well from some folks in western Manitoba that were concerned about cougars in their backyards, that sort of thing, and indicated that there might be an–that perhaps, through Conservation, there might have been a planned effort to return cougars back into the wild.

Can the minister tell me if there's been any kind of a plan to do that or if there's been any process done in that area over the last year and a half? Mr. Blaikie: There hasn't–there's never been an attempt by Manitoba Conservation to reintroduce cougars into the Manitoba environment, but, you know, we're–and–you know, but we get these reports, too. And whenever we get them, people go out and investigate the situation and try to determine whether it was a cougar and, if it was, you know, to monitor the situation and to, you know, do the appropriate sort of investigation into the circumstances. Mr.

Maguire: I don't want to lead the minister to think that I was encouraging him to do that, because I wasn't. But the couple was concerned about the fact that there's kids waiting at the end of their lanes for school buses and stuff like this. I couldn't imagine it, but I had to ask. I wanted to touch base in another area, too, and that's in regards to predators and hunting and that sort of thing in regards to wolves and the cattle industry and a number of other areas. And I wonder if the minister has any plans in allowing some greater culling of the wolf situation in the province of Manitoba.

I know the cattle producers have been making a number of calls in regards to that area. They've had some suggestions. Saskatchewan's had a program in place for a while, and I'm not fully aware of what all of the provinces have done. But I know that concern has been raised with me by individuals in regards to having shot wolves within two miles of Beausejour. Some of them they've seen take deer down inside the Perimeter Highway of the city of Winnipeg. And so there's a concern there, I think, in the number of wolves.

Now, I know that there's the other side of that coin as well, those who want to make sure that there is no hunting allowed of them. But I wonder if the minister can just inform me as to what concerns he has heard or if his department is considering anything in regards to, particularly, alleviating the situation in regards to livestock predation in–from wolves. Mr. Blaikie: Mr.

Chairman, the member has raised the question of wolves, but I imagine that he might–I don't want to anticipate, but he might also be concerned about, in terms of predators, coyotes, as well, but–because we're concerned about them as well, and in this–and we have the same arrangement, basically, for coyotes as we do for wolves. And that is that we have an agreement with the Manitoba Trappers Association to deliver problem predator removal for us. And we have a $50,000 annual budget to address the problem predator management.

And I did have a discussion with this–with I think–with the Keystone Agricultural Producers or maybe it was the Manitoba cattle producers and, you know, if I recall correctly, they weren't, you know, advocating a kind of an indiscriminate cull or kill– that they were, you know, they might've liked to have seen more resources go into the way that we're doing things but they weren't quarrelling with the way that we're doing it. That is to say, to identify the problem predator and to go after that particular animal, rather than trying to, you know, have a kind

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1787 of a–not sure what the right metaphor is–but I know that they've had, with respect to coyotes, for instance, they had, you know, a bounty and that sort of thing in Saskatchewan. But I think the difference we need to keep in mind, at least between Ma nitoba and Saskatchewan, for example, is that we actually have a program for compensating farmers for loss of livestock as a result of predators, and I don't believe that was the case in Saskatchewan, unless they'v e changed it very, very recently. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr.

Chair, I have a quick question in regard to a provincial drain in the R.M. of Morris. I–of course, this letter is from a while back so the issue has been resolved now– because water has flowed away–but it appears that it–according to the writer of the letter, there's an ongoing problem with the maintenance of the Kronsgart drain–that's K-r- o-n-s-g-a-r-t–in that it's just lack of maintenance, I think, to keeping that drain flowing. And, of course, in the spring when there's thawing and it's not draining properly it causes some concern to the local farmers in the area.

So I'm wondering if this particular drain is on a maintenance

schedule for any scheduled main- tenance. Mr. Blaikie: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for her question. She's obviously concerned about something happening in her own constituency, as she should be. I don't have the details on that at the moment but–and I'm not even positive that it–for sure that it would come under Manitoba Conservation.

It might come under MIT or it might come out of Water Stewardship but, regardless of that, I undertake to find out–either find out from my own department or through the appropriate department what the information that the honourable member is looking for, and get back to her as soon as we possibly can. Mrs. Taillieu: I did take it to Water Stewardship. It's not that department. I'm here now and I'm going to MIT, so thanks. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, as well, just a–one off here, I think, in regards to this whole issue of ice- fishing shacks as a last resort on the lake.

And I wonder if the minister can tell me what his intentions are there in regards to–there was some concern this spring about debris left on the ice–fishing shacks on the Red River–and I wonder if the minister can just outline for us whether he's got a plan in place or thinking about what they' ll do for another year to deal with the debris that might be left behind in these kinds of circumstances. * (15:20) Mr. Blaikie: I think the first thing–we want to have this problem solved, hopefully, long before the season begins next year.

We don't want to be dealing with this when it's already happening again on the ground or on the ice, so to speak, and so we are looking for longer term solu tions, but, for sure, we'll be looking for, you know, additional public communication and enforcement efforts on the Red River for the next season.

But I think–I'll just wait until I have the honourable member's attention–one of the things we need to do is to get the right people around the table from the municipalities that have expressed concern about this, some of the stakeholders in terms of if there are people that actually represent the, you know, the people who are using the ice for recreational purposes in that way, get everybody around the table–Conservation, Water Stewardship.

I mean, technically we only have responsibility for enforcing the fishing en d of it, but I think we're all concerned about the way this has developed over the years, and so we want to get the right people around the table and come up with a way of preventing the kind of situation that the municipalities were concerned about this year. Mr. Maguire: Does the minister think that they could do that through a series of fines or licensings, or can he expand on that at all? Mr. Blaikie: I don't want to prejudge how we might do it.

I think I want to be, you know, open to the suggestions that get made around that table that I'm trying to create to see–you know, sometimes enforcement is the way to go and sometimes it's not. If you can create the kind of consensus about how things ought to operate and get some buy-in by the people who actually use the ice for that purpose, and if there are people that don't necessarily agree, I mean, then we'll deal with that.

I would think that, hopefully, we might be able to get the municipalities and the appropriate departments around the table and say–and come up with a consensus as to how we can deal with this. That would be my first preference, shall we say, and, you know, start talking about fines and things like that later if we don't get that kind of co-operation.

1788 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 Mr. Maguire: I want to move on and through the book as much as I said I wanted to go globally. I appreciate the minister's work on that. I wanted to move into the Clean Environment Commission area. I know the City has–or the Province has indicated to the City a standard that they must meet in regards to waste-water treatment with the nitrogen and phosphorus, that sort of thing, coming out of the city, you know, the one part phosphorus, 15 parts nitrogen I believe is the standard that they're looking at in that area.

I wonder if the minister can tell me where–how they came about reaching that balance. Mr. Blaikie: Well, I mean, Mr. Chairperson, the member asks a question about nitrogen and phosphorus, and the fact of the matter is is that the provincial government's position, based on recommendations of the Clean Environment Commission, who did the kind of technical work that the member is asking me for at the moment– recommended that the city be required to remove not just phosphorus, but nitrogen from waste water and sewage before it's discharged ultimately into the Red River. And that is the position that we support.

We think that the–this is, sort of, in our view, state-of-the-art treatment, BNR, biological nutrient removal. We'd like to see the City move towards that at the north-end site. I believe I'm correct in saying it already happens at the South End Treatment Plant. And, I think that there's a misunderstanding in the public domain about the alleged extra cost of removing nitrogen. There is an extra cost to removing nitrogen but the figures sometimes associated with the removal of nitrogen are actually the figures more properly associated with the removal of nitrogen and ammonia.

So the debate gets cast in terms of nitrogen and phosphorus but it's actually nitrogen, ammonia and phosphorus. And, I think, if you look at the figures, you'll see that the biggest piece of what–of the added expense is, through BNR, is the removal of ammonia, which has to be removed in any event. But my understanding of the critics of that position is that they would rather see it done through an alternative way of doing that, through the use of chemicals, et cetera. And we're–we take the view that (

a) that we should use the BNR method, and, secondly, that once you've spent the money to eliminate ammonia in the–through the BNR method, there's actually only about–some of the figures that I've heard, I'm not sure if I'm recalling correctly, but, you know, it's 7 or 8 or 9 percent of the cost left over that's attributable to the actual removal of nitrogen. Mr. Maguire: The minister's indicated the–you know, his view of the removal of the nitrogen from the waste-water treatment facilities, and I respect his view on that. I just may not agree with it all the time.

And, I guess, I'm wondering how he can–and I know the Clean Environment Commission has made these recommendations to the government. I know that, but, you know, with 63 scientists making presentations to the gove rnment or to the Clean Environment Commission that this wasn't necessary to meet that, and, indicated that it may even be detrimental to the balance of nutrients in Lake Winnipeg anyway, I just wonder if he can have any comment on why they're moving forward in such a direction, when this number of scientists, acclaimed scientists, have indicated that they don't need to? Mr.

Blaikie: Well, two things on that score, Mr. Chairman. First of all, there are reputable scientists who argue a position contrary to the position that the member has attributed to these 60 scientists. So there's–you know, there's reputable scientific opinion on both sides, and this is not the first time this has happened in the history of science, that people have, you know, that people can come to different conclusions. We are not–we're not seeking to be arrogant about this, and I think the evidence for that is that we've asked the CEC to look at it one more time.

And, you know–so that's, I think, evidence of the fact that, you know, if there's a good argument out there to the contrary, you know, we trust the CEC to come up with it or to note it or to take it into account. But there are people who are very, very knowledgeable in this area who disagree with Dr. Schindler and others who've criticized the position of the Clean Environment Commission. And the argument, as I understand it–I'm not a scientist, it was never my speciality in high school, but–is that it's not just the question of the blue algae in the lake itself.

It's also larger environmental questions about the watershed, in general, extending all the way to Hudson Bay. So there may indeed be arguments that need to be taken into account that aren't being taken into account, when people look only at this narrow argument about Lake Winnipeg.

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1789 Mr. Maguire: Yes, I know that–I believe this will be the third look at the review, the report the Clean Environment Commission will come with. Has the minister any indication when that report will be in? Mr. Blaikie: Well, I'm hoping that that will be soon, but we don't control when the commission finishes its work. * (15:30) But I might just say, also, in regard to this, that– and this is something that doesn't always come up in the debate either.

You know, if we're in a position and we're, in Lake Winnipeg, where a lot of the nutrients that are coming into Lake Winnipeg are coming in from–either coming in from the south, you know, from beyond our borders to the south, from beyond our provincial borders to the west, and if we want to be–if we want to have the high ground, if you like, in terms of arguing with others about acting in a way that respects the ultimate sustainability of Lake Winnipeg, then we should–it seems to me–that we want to be arguing from strength. We want to be arguing from a place where we're doing the absolute best.

We're doing this state of the art. We're not trying to cut any corners. We're not trying to do anything on the cheap. We are doing things the way it's absolutely best to do it. And I–you know, I recal l having this–being in this kind of a position years and years ago, not as a government, but in the debate about acid rain, for instance, when Canada–when it wanted to get Ronald Reagan, the Reagan administration to act on acid rain.

Well, one of the first things that we wanted to do was to have the sort of moral high ground to be able to say that we are doing everything that we can to deal with acid rain and, therefore, we felt in a better position to exhort others to do what they thought they should be doing. Now, as it turns out, some cities upstream of us are actually removing nitrogen through BNR. Calgary and Brandon and Regina will be.

So here we are, and Winnipeg will be the–Winnipeg, who you would think would be full of citizens who are even more concerned about Lake Winnipeg, and I think it is full of citizens who are more concerned about Lake Winnipeg, but they want a government that's just as concerned as they ar e, and we are. And that's why, until we are persuaded otherwise, we think that Winnipeg should do what other cities are already doing, and that is implementing this state-of-the-art way of dealing with sewage. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, can the minister indicate to me, I guess, just when that–this latest report started?

I know he's–he won't have the influence on when the Clean Environment Commission reports back to him, but I just forget when the government asked the Clean Environment Commission to do this third report, and I just wondered if he could inform me of that. Mr. Blaikie: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I don't have the exact date, but it was either very late in the fall of last year, or perhaps very early this year. The only thing I know for sure is it was some time after the new Premier (Mr. Selinger) took office. But I can get the exact date if that's critical in some way. Mr. Maguire: No.

So it was the minister himself that made the order? Mr. Blaikie: It was after I became the minister here. Mr. Maguire: Yes, thank you. Can you indicate how much money Conservation's flowing to the City of Winnipeg, if any, in–you know–in regards to the upgrades that they're seeking in waste-water treatment facilities? Mr. Blaikie: Yes. I mean, no money flows directly from the Department of Conservation to the City of Winnipeg in this respect.

But there have been monies transferred to the City of Winnipeg under various fiscal arrangements in the past, and in the recent past, which have had, as their object, I believe, but I'd have to–I'll double check on this for the member–and have had as their object helping with the funding of the–of what we're asking the City to do. Now, it may be that there are other transfers, fiscal transfers, pending with respect to this particular issue. I'd have to check and get back to the honourable member. I could walk over and talk to the Minister of Local Government (Mr. Lemieux) there, but I–you know. Mr.

Maguire: I asked him. He says he's done his Estimates. I want to move on to the forest fire programming–program and the minister's announce- ments–or the government's announcement of the four new planes that they've just purchased that will be here sometime after the next election, all but the one, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's one available this fall and another one–is it in the fall of '11, with the other two in 2012?

1790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 Mr. Blaikie: I think I have an answer for the honourable member now. There'll be one this year, this coming fall, and then two the next year and then one the year after that. Mr. Maguire: Yeah, just for clarity–one this fall. Will there be two the next fall, or will there be one in the spring, one in the fall and then another one in 2012? Mr. Blaikie: Two different delivery dates in 2011. Two will be delivered in 2011, you know, providing the production lines don't run into any troubles. Mr.

Maguire: Yes, and these are the 415 turboprop water bombers that Bombardier makes, I believe, as I read the reports, that they're purchasing. Can the minister indicate to me what input Conservation had in this decision, or was it your department that made the decision to purchase these, or just where did the decision come from? Mr.

Blaikie: Yes, I mean, it was a decision made between the two departments, between Conservation and MIT, and, you know, we shared the concern that the existing fleet of CL-215s was getting a bit long in the tooth and that more and more time is being spent in the shop for maintenance purposes and that it was time to move on ordering these particular new aircraft. Which I might add–sorry, Mr. Chairman–which I might add are not just–won't just replace but actually are–they'll be able to do things that the aircraft that are being replaced can't do. I mean, they move faster, they carry more water.

They're going to be better at fighting fires, and you know, it's a–I think they carry 200 gallons more than–per drop, I guess, I think, is the language–and they're going to be an asset to the province for sure. Mr. Maguire: Yes, just while you're on that, what's the capacity of the–I believe it's the CL-215s that are there now? And your minister's indicating 200 more gallons at a drop. Mr. Blaikie: The old ones had 1,200 gallons and these ones have 1,400. * (15:40) Mr.

Maguire: Did they look at other types of planes, or does the minister believe that this is the most cost- effective plane that they could have purchased? Mr. Blaikie: Yes, my understanding is that Bombardier is the only company that makes these kind of water bombers and, of course, you know, in other places where they don't have a lot of water accessible in the way that we do as a result of our lakes, they often have to resort to other forms of aircraft that are able to deliver fire retardant chemicals or whatever.

But we are, I think happily you might say, dependent and able to use water to fight fires, and these are the people that make them. Mr. Maguire: So can the minister just confirm for me that there were no other types of planes that they looked at? Mr. Blaikie: As far as I understand, there were no other–if we're looking at water bombers and we were. To my knowledge, there are no other aircraft of this nature on the market, so to speak. Mr. Maguire: Yes, it was water bombers I was enquiring about. It wasn't the minister's department's jet, nor anything like that–planes that I was looking at.

These are water bombers that I'm talking about. I'll continue to talk about water bombers, and so I just wondered if you had mentioned maneuverability. And can you just tell me the difference in horsepowers, or is there any details that the department can provide me with the flexibility and the maneuverability of these particular aircraft. Mr. Blaikie: I have the details here. There's increased air speed, 190 knots for the CL-415s versus 145 knots for the CL-215s, which provides significantly greater effectiveness in fire suppression. You know, it just, it flies faster to the fires.

It picks up on smaller lakes so it has more choice of where it drops down to pick up water. And it drops more gallons per hour on a fire than the old planes would, because they can go back and forth quicker. And so that's, you know, that's the advantage of them and just going back to your earlier question about, you know, why these particular planes? Well, these were the, you know, these planes have to meet a national and international fire su ppression stan dards, and these were the planes that do that. Mr. Maguire: Was there any kind of a restriction just to look at Canadian-made planes? Mr.

Blaikie: There was no, as far as I–there was no rule to have to buy Canadian. We bought Canadian because they were the best planes. And they met the national and international standards, and they were also the kind of planes that were, I believe, have been purchased by other provinces. There is a kind of a Canadian fire suppression association or something to that effect, and these are

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1791 the planes that are generally recognized as being state of the art in this regard. Mr. Maguire: Yes, thanks, Mr. Minister, for that answer. Can they–can these land on a gravel strip at all? Can they land on a gravel strip? I wonder about maneuverability. The minister's indicated that they land–that they can pick water up in a shorter distance. Can they also land on shorter runways or particularly, at some of the gravel runways that we have in the north without damage to the planes or do they require a paved strip, I guess, is what I'm getting at? Mr.

Blaikie: I mean, I–they can, but, you know, the fire suppression strategy is that they operate from a base and then they–they're going down into the lakes and coming up again. So they normally don't have to. Mr. Maguire: So I guess we had, I believe, and maybe the minister–the best way for me to ask this is just what did we have in the fleet before? I know there was the 215s that I spoke of. One of the articles I saw indicated that the government was going to be selling five of seven of those. I'm assuming that won't be all at once.

But can he indicate if that was our fleet, the seven planes before, and if we have other planes that are in more remote areas, perhaps, on-site and–to fight fires on a more local basis? Mr. Blaikie: Well, just to put on the record, Mr. Chairman, we have seven CL-215 water bombers, as the member has mentioned, and three Cessna 310 Bird Dog aircraft, which are also operated by Government Air Services. And once we are in receipt of the four new CL-415s we propose to have four CL-15s and two CL-215 s. In other words, we hope to be–you know, keep the best two of the existing fleet of the older aircraft.

And, of course, you know, we do have seasonal helicopter contracts during the wildfire season, as well, but in terms of aircraft that's the answer to your question. Mr. Maguire: The minister mentioned the helicopters and being on standby and if–for times of peak fires. Can he indicate if they have a contract with other private individuals around the province that may own planes that they can have on standby to fight fires as well? Mr. Blaikie: We do have something, Mr.

Chairman, called the SEAT program, which is actually an acronym for single-engine air tanker, and which are some–best described as large crop-dusting planes that have been modified so that they can be used to apply water and/or retardant to fires. So, in our view, the SEAT program has–is a successful, an effective and an efficient option for supplementing the fire program's wildfire suppression resources. And it's important to have available when fire hazards are high in the early spring and water bodies are still ice covered, limiting the use of the water bombers, obviously. Mr.

Maguire: It'd be on a standby basis, I assume? Mr. Blaikie: W e h i r e t h e m , I t h i n k , o n a n as-required basis. So I'm not sure is there–where there's a sort of an average or is–just let me follow-up on that. So, for instance, I'm told that–sorry, Mr. Chairman; oh, I still got the floor–that SEATs or single-engine air tanker airc raft have been hired for 10 days already this season. Mr.

Maguire: Can the minister elaborate on what kind of a contract they would have with them–covers their insurance, staff, equipment required–can you just supply me with any pertinent information around the type of contract that they would have with them? Mr. Blaikie: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I don't have the details of the contract available at the moment, but we can get that to the honourable member– Mr. Maguire: Yeah, thanks–appreciate it if you can just provide me with that. Maybe bring it tomorrow or something, and whatever–provide it to me.

When they aren't being used, what type of reciprocal agreement have we got with other provinces? I know we've sent planes to B.C. and other provinces and states to fight fires in the past when ours aren't needed here, and to make the best use of the equipment. I'm wondering if he can elaborate for me just what they do in that area. * (15:50) Mr. Blaikie: Yes, we do have an arrangement with–I think it's called the Canadian interagency fire-fighting association, or something to that effect, whereby, you know, provinces come to each other's aid in certain circumstances.

And one of the advantages of the new water bombers is that we will be able to participate more fully in that kind of exchange, or that kind of mutual help arrangement because, sometimes, you know, our neighbours aren't as eager to have the old planes as they would be to have the new planes come to their assistance.

1792 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2010 And I think, if I'm not mistaken, even at one point, you know, we were asked to contribute to planes to a fire-fighting effo rt in California and, you know, when they found out that it–that they were the older planes–yeah. Mr. Maguire: Yeah, can the minister indicate what the 215–oh, the 215 size, I believe, was the 1,200 gallons that he was talking about and the 310 Cessnas? Mr. Blaikie: I guess they're not called Bird Dog aircraft for nothing. They–they're just–they just scout out the situation.

I don't know if they actually do any–they don't actually carry any water. They're kind of, you know, they're sort of a Snoopy in the– Mr. Maguire: I'm a bit familiar with the Cessna aircraft, and so I wondered–I didn't realize that they were making a water-type program. The SEAT planes, can the minister indicate to me if any of those are ever hired out to other provinces or do those individuals have to get their own contracts with those provinces? Or other jurisdictions, I should say. Mr.

Blaikie: I would think that they're private people who are contracting with us, so if they contract with others, that's their business. Mr. Maguire: What type of a contract is it that you'd have with them, then? Is it one that's pretty flexible? If they're working someplace else, they just–you have to hire somebody else or are they to be on standby at least for a certain period of time? Mr. Blaikie: That's part of the contract that you asked us about just a little while ago, so maybe we can get you all that at the same time. Mr.

Maguire: When they looked at the purchase of the 415s, the new planes–and I understand what the minister's indicated to me, and I'm not familiar enough with what other companies make these type of aircraft–but were these planes, then, tendered over a period of time, or can the minister supply me with the parameters of any tender that they had, or was this done by tender? Mr. Blaikie: I mean, the tendering and procurement of planes is done through air services at MIT.

Again, I reiterate that our understanding is that Bombardier was–you're talking about the new water bombers–is that these water bombers were–they weren't available anywhere else. Mr. Maguire: My understanding that the government's looking at $126,000 capital program to purchase the four of these planes– [interjection]–or $126 million. Yeah, certainly not thousand. Thank you for that correction.

And I guess I'm wondering if the minister thinks this was the most cost-efficient way that they could have used that $126 million, or whether purchases of–like, just as an example, could they have looked at smaller planes and more of them? Is that efficient in his mind? I know you need more staff, and, you know, there's insurance an d everything else around that type of thing. From a fuel efficiency–I don't know whether they're more fuel efficient or not–from that end of it as well, costs of operations.

But I just wondered if he'd–if they'd considered, say, planes of 400 or 600 gallons as opposed to the 1,400 that they're looking at. Mr. Blaikie: Well, I think, I understand that there are smaller planes but, certainly, the customary accepted way of fighting fires, particularly in the boreal forest, is to have–get as much water as you can, the soon as you can, and drop it, hopefully, you know, on the fire before it's–before it really digs in, so to speak.

And that having this kind of payload and being able to deliver it repeatedly early on, and given our access to water, that they use–to have these bombers is, indeed, the most effective way to proceed. And, you know, I'm confident that the–that this was the right decision. And it's–it makes the most of our–of the situation we find ourselves in, in terms of the nature of our forest and our accessibility to water. Mr. Maguire: I'd better move on, Mr. Chairman; I've ended up page 1 of the questions that I had down here yet. But I just wanted to–just to check in for clarification.

I asked ear lier whether these 415's could land on–do they absolutely require paved strips then, or can they land on gravel strips? Mr. Blaikie: They–I think, as I said before, they can land on gravel. I'm sure it's not optimum conditions and probably not good for the aircraft, but they could land on gravel if they had to. But they're–you know, the idea is that they would be landing on, presumably, asphalt or concre te services at the base where they–from which they operate, and then moving in and, you know, in and off the lake. So the gravel would be a rare event.

May 4, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1793 Mr. Maguire: Back just for a moment to the Clean Environment Commission, I see three staff persons on that area. Can you indicate to me who the chairman of that still is–the individual who is the chairman of the Clean Environment Commission? Yes, still. An Honourable Member: The chair of the Clean Environment Commission is Terry Sargeant. Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister, can you– Honourable Minister. Mr.

Blaikie: The chair of the Clean Environment Commission is Terry Sargeant, and I'm not sure who the other two staff people are, but I could find that out for you. Mr. Maguire: I could have went to the Web site, I think, and got that, but I just–that was my feeling, thanks for confirming that. The Regional Support Services, I know, just a quick question on that before I leave it. And it's– there's a line in page 36, it says it operates a 24/7 toll-free line for repor ting forest fires and resource-law violators. It's 24/7, but is that year- round?

Certainly, I don't suppose the forest fire part of it is, but the resource-law violators, maybe he can provide me with more detail on that. Mr. Blaikie: The line is open all year round, so it's not just for fires. I woul d agree that you probably don't get too many forest fire reports in the winter, but there's also–it's also for, you know, to report poaching and other things that people might call in about. Mr. Maguire: With the snow and the rain that we've had over the last few days, I think the minister indicated once there was 50 fires burning in Manitoba, or had burnt this spring already.

Is that a number still that's valid or what is the number today? And do we actually have any burning as we speak? * (16:00) Mr. Blaikie: I don't know the precise number of fires that are burning at the moment, but certainly the situation is better than it was before the rain and before the green-up that's taking place now as we look out the window. So the situation is much improved, and we should be–I never like to say anything for sure, but good for a few w

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-4-39b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 4th hansardpdf 39b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7db9bf23690ab7434b0baa7affbd40e5e26f23a2

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