October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 971 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, October 26, 1979 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 62 The Alberta Heritage Foundation for Medical Research Act MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 62, The Alberta Heritage Foundation for Medical Research Act. This being a money Bill, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor, having been informed of the contents of this Bill, recommends the same to the Assembly. Mr.

Speaker, the purpose of this Bill is to establish the Alberta Heritage Foundation for Medical Research.

The objects of the foundation are to establish and support a balanced long-term program of medical re­ search based in Alberta, directed to the discovery of new knowledge and the application of that knowledge to improve health and quality of health services in Alber­ ta; in particular, to stimulate research in the medical sciences, to implement effective means of using in Alberta the scientific resources available in medical sciences, to support medical research laboratories and related facilities in Alberta, to promote co-operation in research in medical sciences in order to minimize dup­ lication in and promote concentration of effort in that research, and to encourage young Albertans to pursue careers in research in medical sciences.

Mr. Speaker, the Bill provides for the establishment of an endowment fund of $300 million from the Herit­ age Savings Trust Fund, with the income available to the foundation. The Bill provides for a foundation to be run by a board of nine trustees, appointed by government and designated institutions; after five years the government would not appoint the majority.

The Bill provides, as much as possible, for the founda­ tion to operate at arm's length from government; provides that the foundation's activities would only be reviewed every three years by a select committee of the Legislature through a triennial report . . . MR. SPEAKER: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Pre­ mier, but we appear to be getting into the sort of detail which would arise on second reading of the Bill. MR. LOUGHEED: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will defer to your view.

I thought that the magnitude of the Bill would need description of more than just the basic purpose of the Bill, and for that reason went into the way in which it is structured. I think it is fundamental­ ly important that the people of Alberta are aware that this Bill, by its structure, will operate at arm's length from government, and for that reason have made that explanation in what I think is such a very important Bill to the Legislative Assembly. [Leave granted; Bill 62 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of the Alberta Oil Sands Technology and Re­ search Authority, also the annual report of the Alberta Petroleum Marketing Commission. This report con­ tains the balance sheet both as required by The Petro­ leum Marketing Act, and, in addition, it contains the annual report and financial statements required by The Natural Gas Pricing Agreement Act. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to introduce to the House today Mr. Samson Surtan, who is visiting Alberta from Kenya. Mr.

Surtan has been with CARE, an international assistance agen­ cy, since 1972. Presently based in Nairobi, he co­ ordinates all the CARE community development pro­ grams in Kenya. He is currently in Canada for meet­ ings with a number of non-governmental organiza­ tions involved in international assistance, helping them to plan programs to meet the emerging needs of the 1980s in developing countries. I would ask Mr. Surtan to rise and receive a very warm welcome from the Assembly. MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon.

Member for Lac La Biche-McMurray it is my pleasure this morning to introduce to you, and through you to members of this House, 35 clerk typist students from AVC Lac La Biche. These students come from a variety of northeastern Alberta communities. They are accom­ panied by their group leader June Fleming and are seated in the members gallery. I would request they stand and receive the welcome of the House. MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon.

Member for Drumheller, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce grades 11 and 12 classes from Chestermere high school who are seated in the public gallery. They are accompanied by Don Bryan and possibly, I understand, Mr. Jim Turner. Would they rise and receive the welcome of the House. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Recreation and Parks MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, this is an exceptionally good day for the Member for Drumheller. As Acting Minister of Recreation and Parks, I'm pleased to an­ nounce the following.

The government of Alberta has been advised that the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization — commonly known as UNESCO — World Heritage Committee meeting in Cairo, Egypt, has accepted the nomination of Alberta's Dinosaur Provincial Park to the World Heritage List. Dinosaur Provincial Park joins two other Canadian

972 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 sites on the heritage list: Nahanni National Park in the Northwest Territories and L'Anse Aux Meadows Na­ tional Historic Park in Newfoundland. The World Heritage List and the committee respon­ sible for the selection of entries to the list were estab­ lished under the auspices of the UNESCO World Her­ itage Convention. This convention was adopted in 1972 in response to the urgent need to protect the world's irreplaceable cultural and natural heritage.

Dinosaur Provincial Park is unmatched in the num­ ber and variety of high-quality dinosaur specimens found within the park, in comparison to fossil sites in other parts of the world. Information from the national museum of Canada indicates that 30 species of dino­ saurs have been found in this park. Some 30 major museums hold fossil collections from the park, among them the national museum of Canada in Ottawa, the American Museum of Natural History in New York, the British Museum of Natural History in London, England, the Museum of Natural History in Buenos Aires, and the National Museum of Brazil.

Dinosaur Provincial Park is 50 kilometres northeast of Brooks, Alberta, and was formally established as a provincial park in 1955. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Beny Collection MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address the first question to the Minister responsible for Culture. Hopefully on this rather crisp Friday morning we'll be able to resolve a number of concerns with regard to the Beny collection.

I'd like to direct the initial question to the minister with regard to the acquisition of the collection, if she could clarify for the Assembly what use was made of the $23,000 under the special warrant Code 403. That code is used for appraisals. If the appraisals were done by employees of the provincial government and a woman in Florence who didn't charge for the services, who was the $23,000 paid to and for what purpose? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, the $23,000 was for cataloguing and is going to be used for catalo­ guing, typing, and duplication of the prints and negatives.

Also, there are two people on staff who will be doing the cataloguing. That will be in that figure. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion, now that we've found out that that money wasn't used for appraisals. Could the minister indicate to the Assembly what the full scope of possibilities will be for the government's reproducing parts of the collection for distribution in Alberta communities? In other words, what's the full scope of the use the government will be making of the Beny collection reproductions? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr.

Speaker, the collection will be displayed in various shopping malls throughout the province and taken to various schools. It will be used across Canada, and hopefully will be shown in the United States as well. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister. I appreciate that answer. Will the collection itself be used in that way or, in fact, will the reprints and reproductions of the collec­ tion be used in that manner? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, if the reprints are in condition . . .

When I say conditions, some of them, which are the most important of the collection, are being blown or copied at the moment in Rome. When those come, I presume those will be the first to be shown. As the years go along and the negatives need to be touched up, hopefully they will all be exposed to the general public. I think a very important factor to note in the House today is that the Kodak film industry is coming up with a new film, and once these pictures have been reshot, they will not deteriorate any further.

I think this is a very good plus, and I know the Glenbow will certainly welcome that advice when the film appears. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the minister. Does the final sales agreement for the purchase of Mr. Roloff Beny's slide and print col­ lection include the transfer of the copyright? In other words, who will own the copyright to the slides and prints, Mr. Beny or the province of Alberta? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, the province of Alberta. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister. In light of the comments made by Mr. Beny that in fact Mr.

Beny owns the copyrights until he dies, and that the province of Alberta will either have to pay Mr. Beny royalties for every reproduction and print or negotiate an addendum to the agreement, is the minister pre­ pared today to table the agreement which has been presented to Mr. Beny, and which I understand has now been signed, so the minister can verify and show the people of Alberta that this question of copyright has been protected by the government, of Alberta, and that Mr. Beny's

interpretation is wrong? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has a different opinion than we have from Mr. Beny. When we receive the contract, I will certainly table it for the hon. member to see. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister. What legal advice concerning the implications of copyright did the minister receive before the agree­ ment was signed by the government of Alberta? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. [member] is clearly going outside the bounds of the question period. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, could I put a supplemen­ tary question to the hon. minister.

Did the government of Alberta obtain outside legal advice prior to signing the agreement? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that ques­ tion as notice. MR. R. CLARK; Mr. Speaker, is the minister indicat­ ing to the Assembly that she doesn't know whether the province got outside legal advice on this question of

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 973 copyright before the province signed the agreement? The question is: doesn't the minister know whether we got legal advice or not? MR. SPEAKER: The minister has really answered that as far as it can go in today's question period, certainly, unless the minister changes her mind. She has said she's going to take it as notice. Surely that ends the matter for the time being. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question for clarification.

Are the members of the Legislature to understand that in authorizing the purchase of the Beny collection, the minister made it clear to those negotiating that in fact the copyrights were to be retained by the government of Alberta? Was that clear­ ly understood by everybody involved in the process of making this arrangement with Mr. Beny? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, to my best knowl­ edge that was the way it was stated. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Were there special instructions from the minister's office which conveyed that intent clearly and unmistakably? MR.

SPEAKER: Surely we're just laboring this. There must be a reasonable limit to everything, and it would seem to me that what the hon. member has just asked was quite implicit in the previous question. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The question really is a little more than that. The question really is whether there was an explicit directive on this very important matter, because the collection is practi­ cally worthless if we don't have the copyright. That's a very crucial issue. We have to find out whether there was an explicit instruction from the minister prior to the negotiations. MRS.

LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I believe I've just answered that question. Yes, there was. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the minister. In reading and reviewing the agreement, was the minister convinced in her own

interpretation that the copyright was protected in the name of the government of Alberta? MR. SPEAKER: It would really appear that we're now going into the area of mind reading. This topic has been covered by countless supplementaries over a period of days. I realize the opposition is entitled to treat it as being important. On the question of legal advice, the hon. minister has agreed to take the ques­ tion as notice. Obviously she is not personally involved in the whole thing.

She's responsible for a department, and there must be some limit, although I must confess that the latitude we have had so far has exceeded that which is accorded many other topics. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, with the greatest respect to your ruling, I simply point out to you, sir, that in the course of this week we've had statement after state­ ment made by the minister in question period and then changed the next day, or changed outside the Assembly. Now the question of copyright comes up.

What we're trying to ascertain is, if I can use the term, an ironclad guarantee from the minister that, at least on this issue, we're not going to find out Monday or Tuesday of next week that the minister has changed her mind. That is the reason it is so important that the minister respond to the questions, as difficult as they may be this morning; because if in fact we don't have the copyright guarantee, as has been pointed out al­ ready the collection is worth very, very little. MR. KNAAK: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. It seems very clear.

The minister has said that she is going to table the agreement when it comes in. Surely the agreement will be very clear to the point she has already addressed. I think further supplementaries may very well prohibit other members from asking further questions. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. We have an issue here where there are a number of unanswered questions. With great respect to your rul­ ing, it seems to me that there are times and occasions when there has to be sufficient latitude in the question period that questions can be put, answers can be given, and the House can be satisfied.

With great respect to your ruling, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that it would be a disservice if we were to curtail questioning until such time as answers are given. I have a number of other supplementary ques­ tions on this subject, and I would like the opportunity to be able to put them either now or later in the question period. MR. KING: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I'm not sure what the point of order is. The Speaker has made a ruling on a question. A ruling by the Speaker, once given to the House, cannot be debated under the guise of a point of order or anything else.

If the hon. members wish to form . . . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. KING: I'm simply stating the tradition and the Standing Orders of this House, Mr. Speaker. The only recourse available to members of the House when a ruling has been given from the Chair is to appeal the ruling to the members of the House. If we were concerned a moment ago that we were using up the time of question period with supplementaries restated with different words, I'm equally concerned now that we are using up the time of question period with the specious device of a point of order that has no applica­ tion in the situation. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: We are losing some time from the question period. I'm very much aware, in fact usually quite sensitive, that it is possible to put on any inter­ vention by the Speaker in the question period the construction that the Speaker is protecting a minister. I hope that construction won't be put on this present situation. For those who wish to do that, I'm sorry. I won't argue with them. But let us just look at what the exact situation is. It's very simply this: the hon. minister has been asked about the agreement. She has agreed to table it. She

974 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 has been asked categorically and has answered cate­ gorically that she gave instructions to her department, or whomever, to see to the matter of copyright. Now, surely, if we're going to go further into the legal aspects of it — and I'm not referring now to asking the minister about legal advice she might have ob­ tained — it should certainly await the minister's hav­ ing had an opportunity to do as she has said, to take the matter as notice. Once that opportunity has been had by the minister, I could see no reason why that line of questioning couldn't be pursued. MR. R.

CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like the Chair's direc­ tion. Referring to Standing Orders of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, under

Chapter 4,

Section 34, it says: If a question is of such a nature that, in the opinion of the minister who is to furnish the reply, such reply should be in the form of a return, and the minister states that there is no objection to laying such return upon the Table of the Assem­ bly, the minister's statement shall, unless otherwise ordered by the Assembly, be deemed an Order of the Assembly to that effect and the same shall be entered in the Votes and Proceedings as such. Mr.

Speaker, in light of your ruling, I take it that in fact this shall appear in Votes and Proceedings, that the information will be tabled as a motion for a return. MR. SPEAKER: I do not interpret the hon. minister's remarks as having gone that far. If she wishes to do that, of course, it's open to her, but she has simply said that she is prepared to table it. She hasn't said that she is going to deal with it as an order for a return. MR. R. CLARK: But, Mr.

Speaker, with the greatest of respect, sir, the rules of the Assembly say that if the minister states that there is no objection to laying such return upon the Table of the Assem­ bly, the minister's statement shall, unless otherwise ordered by the Assembly, be deemed an Order of the Assembly. And the minister indicated that, and you, sir, did in your ruling. MR. R. SPEAKER: She indicated that she's prepared to do it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. leader should read the whole text.

The Standing Order says that If a question is of such a nature that, in the opinion of the minister who is to furnish the reply, such reply should be in the form of a return . . . The hon. minister hasn't used that expression. We have two different ways of bringing information before the Assembly: one is a tabling and one is a filing. In the case of a return, it's mandatory; it has got to be a tabling. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could just put one question to you before proceeding with ques­ tion period.

I have several questions that don't relate to the question of copyright but are directed to the hon. minister concerning the Beny collection. I take it from your ruling this morning that further questions deal­ ing with the copyright would not be considered, but other questions dealing with the issue would. Would that be a correct assessment? MR. SPEAKER: I'm not stating in advance. It's well- known parliamentary tradition that a Speaker is not permitted to make a ruling in advance on a hypothet­ ical situation. If the hon. member wishes to ask his questions, I'll consider them as they are asked. MR. R.

CLARK: Mr. Speaker, might I ask one further question of the minister? Will the minister give a commitment to the Assembly to table with the Assem­ bly the opinion the minister has which guarantees the copyright protection for Albertans? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. leader asked that question previously to find out what legal advice the hon. minister had received, and it is . . . MR. R. CLARK: [Inaudible] to table it. MR. SPEAKER: She has not offered to table the advice; she has offered to table the agreement or to file it, I don't know which. MR. R. CLARK: [Inaudible] know about it. MR.

SPEAKER: It's very clear. Surely the hon. Leader of the Opposition has had sufficient experience in par­ liamentary matters to know that it is not permitted to try to get at legal advice obtained by a minister or by the government. MR. R. CLARK: If I could say, Mr. Speaker, I've sat in this Assembly and seen members of this government and the former government volunteer legal advice to be tabled when it's for the benefit of the government. AN HON. MEMBER: That's right. MR. SPEAKER: If it's tabled I have no jurisdiction over that. My duty is with regard to the nature of the questions asked in the question period.

I regret having gotten into a situation where there appears to be an argument going on between some of the members and myself. I trust that we can now get back to the question period. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I may then direct a question to the hon. Minister responsible for Culture, and ask whether the government was aware of this new process by Kodak that the minister alluded to this morning when the original negotiation took place with Mr. Beny. MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, in the overall price that we are paying to Mr.

Beny were going to be reproductions being done in Italy of the most impor­ tant negatives. When it comes to this Kodak procedure we are talking about, this is not on the market yet. It should be here any day. If this collection will not arrive in Canada for another year, I think it would be very foolish to say we were aware of this procedure and were using this when we were doing our dealing. We did not have this information. We had the information that the majority and the major slides were going to be reproduced in Rome.

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 975 MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the min­ ister, so there's no misunderstanding. This new process was not available and was unknown to the government at the time. Would it be a fair assessment that the only method of stabilizing the negatives at the time the government made the arrangement with Mr. Beny was the method the minister alluded to the other day, which she estimated would cost between $10 and $20 a negative? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, those were for the negatives that were going to be done here till this film comes out.

But the majority of the films, the most important ones, are being reproduced in Rome and are included in the overall price. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly whether a specific assessment has been made by the department to obtain the figure of between $10 and $20, and whether the minister would be prepared to table information as to how Mr. Ridge and others arrived at that figure? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, that figure is be­ ing done right in our own public affairs department.

The figure that has been quoted to our department is between $10 and $20. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister aware of a discussion on or about October 5 between the assistant provincial archivist, who indicated that the price for stabilizing negatives such as alluded to would be in the neigh­ borhood of $100 or more instead of $10 or $20? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, $10 to $20 is the figure the Provincial Archives has been using with public affairs. They have been doing this continually. I don't have any qualm with that figure. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister in a position to assure the Assembly that the minister has had an opportunity to talk with particularly Mr. Brian Speirs, the assistant provincial archivist, in view of comments that gentle­ man made about the cost being substantially larger than the $10 to $20 quoted by the minister? MRS. LeMESSURIER: I'm not aware of the figures the assistant chap at the Provincial Archives is quot­ ing. When I asked for information on how much it would cost, I was told it would be between $10 and $20. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister in a position to outline to the Assembly whether that $10 to $20 accounts for any of the labor costs? Or are we simply going to be redirecting personnel to do this work and, since we pay for them anyway, not counting the labor costs involved? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, we have been using this equipment continually at public affairs. As for the labor, I'm not aware if it's a labor cost. We've been using it continually, and I would think it will be part and parcel of our normal procedures. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, just one further supple­ mentary question to the minister. The minister, then, has not received a detailed breakdown. She's been given a composite figure. Would that be a fair assess­ ment of her remarks of $10 to $20 a negative? It would not be broken down into labor costs, equipment costs, film costs, and what have you? Or, if the minister has received this information, would she be prepared to table it? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, the information I was given was $10 to $20. It was strictly on the phone, and there was no breakdown of the actual figures.

I will have the breakdown, if the hon. member so desires. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the minister. Did the hon. minister read the portion of the contract with regard to copyright prior to signing the agreement? MR. SPEAKER: We're back on the same track. Surely that can wait. Nothing will spoil if that waits until the contract is tabled and the minister has a chance to take the question as notice. MR. NOTLEY: I wouldn't want to bet on it. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, with regard to your comment and on a point of order, my question was very clear.

I asked the minister, did the hon. minister read? I was not asking for any

interpretation of the contract or any other item with regard to the contract. There is a precedent in this Assembly for asking ministers wheth­ er they have or have not read a report. I can recall questions such as that being accepted, not only in the last eight years. I can recall, prior to that eight-year period, when ministers of another government were asked time and again, did you read a report — refer­ ring to annual reports and other reports. I'm sure the hon. Premier and the hon. Provincial Treasurer could substantiate that argument. There is a lot of precedent for asking that type of question. Mr.

Speaker, I do not feel it is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: Perfectly in order. I'm just concerned that we should not be pursuing the legal point about the contract itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: It's not legal. MR. SPEAKER: I'm saying that a question asking the minister whether she has read something is perfectly in order. I wasn't concerned about that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Will the minister answer it? MR. KNAAK: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. Surely the question suggests that a minister should almost replace the legal opinion or the legal staff.

If the minister is not a lawyer, it's irrelevant whether or not they read a legal contract. I don't think the ques­ tion is in order. MR. SPEAKER: Sorry, I'm unable to deal with the matter further. Having dealt with a point of that kind, the Speaker is also stuck with his answer.

976 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 MR. COOK: Mr. Speaker, has the minister's depart­ ment begun the process of contacting other depart­ ments . . . MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. Mem­ ber for Edmonton Glengarry, the hon. Member for Little Bow asked a question. I'm not sure whether the minister has taken the opportunity to answer it. MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I indicated to our legal advisers that I'd like to make sure the copyright factor was in the contract. MR. R. SPEAKER: Did you read the contract? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr.

Speaker, I have not read the finished contract, the signed contract, at the moment. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, who signed the contract on behalf of Alberta then? MR. COOK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We'll have to deal with one question at a time. MR. COOK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister's department begun the process of contacting other departments of government to advise them of the collection?

Will the minister's department be advising how they might take advantage of such a valuable collection, which would be an important addi­ tion to the heritage of the province of Alberta? MR. NOTLEY: You've got to have the copyright first. MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, when the collec­ tion arrives in Alberta, I think it would be fitting that all departments have the pleasure of viewing it and seeing how they can best utilize it. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. The question was posed by the Leader of the Opposition.

Is the minister in a position to outline to the Assembly who in fact signed the contract on behalf of the government of Alberta? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I think in the last few days it has been clearly said that negotiations are finished, but the contract has not yet been signed by Mr. Beny and delivered back to Canada. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one last question on this matter today, to the hon. minister. [interjections] I can appreciate why the government would like this to be the last question today.

Is the minister indicating to the Assembly that she has not read the agreement which has been presented to Mr. Beny for his signature? MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I said I have not seen the signed contract that was sent to Mr. Beny. I viewed the contents we were being asked for. Until he actually signs it, I will not know exactly if he accepted all the negotiations or all the terms that we asked for. As far as we're concerned, with our lawyers the nego­ tiations have been accomplished and now it's just the final signing. As soon as I have that contract back here, Mr.

Speaker, it will be our pleasure to table the contract so hon. members may view it. Food Quiz MR. LYSONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Minister of Agriculture. It's relative to the food quiz that was on TV last night, and perhaps other nights. Was this program paid for by the Alber­ ta Department of Agriculture? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, the food quiz was one of the many aspects which the Department of Agriculture and the province of Alberta have going for Agricul­ ture Week.

I would like to say that the programs that are presented, and the opportunity for the agricultural sector to bring to the rest of Albertans, and indeed to the rest of Canada, have been excellent. I would certain­ ly like to say thank you to the department staff for the calibre of the programs they have provided. Yes, we did pay for it. MR. LYSONS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a supple­ mentary question, in view of the minister's answer. Did you indicate that this program would be viewed across Canada, or is it more of a local viewing for Alberta? MR.

SCHMIDT: The program the hon. member has mentioned is shown through the television media of the cities of Edmonton, Calgary, Red Deer, and Lloydminster, chosen geographically to provide the urban portion of the province with the benefits of the program and an introduction to agriculture as part of Agriculture Week. Freight Rates MR. NOTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Agricul­ ture. It concerns the discussion over abolishing the Crow rate and replacing it with a system of so-called Crow benefit payments directly to Canadian farmers.

My question to the Minister of Agriculture or to the Minister of Transportation is to request the position of the government of Alberta on this question. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, the province, and indeed the portion responsible for agriculture and transporta­ tion, is preparing a policy paper on the Crow rate. On the presentation of that paper, we'll have the opportu­ nity to make the policy known to members of the Legislature. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question in view of the widespread discussion of Crow benefit payments directly to some 150,000 permit holders.

Is it the view of the government of Alberta that such a move is a reasonable option to the proposal made by Mr. Justice Hall, where the benefits would be paid directly to the railways? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, in the total review of transportation as it affects western Canada, and indeed grain handling and of course directly to this province, we feel that the Crow rate has to be one of the areas of consideration in solving the total transportation problem.

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 977 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Agriculture. The question really relates to how one deals with the Crow rate: whether it is kept in the present form, whether the difference is paid to the railroads, or whether we have the Crow equivalent paid to thousands of individual farmers. My question is, does the government of Alberta consider the latter course a reasonable option, and is this part of the process of review? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, I thought I made it clear that the total review of transportation and han­ dling facilities with regard to grain, and indeed for the province — part of that review being carried out by this government indeed entails the Crow rate. When we make available the policy stand on behalf of trans­ portation and the movement of grain, our stand and philosophy as to suggested changes in the Crow, if any, will be made available at that time. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Agriculture.

Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly when the process of review will be completed, and when we can expect a definitive position on this matter from the government of Alberta? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, because of the degree of urgency, and certainly the total aspect of transporta­ tion being of prime importance to the agriculture industry, not only to this province but to western Canada as a whole, I would say that we will be continuing with research and will be coming forth with a policy in a reasonable time. The time frame would be reasonably short. Denticare MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health. It relates to a question which I had the oppor­ tunity to ask the minister last year regarding denti­ care. Since that time the Health Unit Association of Alberta has released the results of a dental health sur­ vey. With that survey, while they indicated that the majority of Alberta youth had teeth in better shape than those in most of the country, they did indicate that in the year preceding the survey, those youths 13 and 14 years old from low-income families had a much lower rate of healthy . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Could the hon. member come directly to the question. Undoubtedly he has some information he wishes to get. It shouldn't ordinarily be necessary to go into the background to that extent. MR. D. ANDERSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Is the hon. minister now in a position to indicate to this House that he will be recommending a denticare program for the youth of the province of Alberta? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member may be confused, in that we are currently in the first of a three-year program, in co-operation with the health units and health boards of the province, implementing a preventative program aimed specifically at children. This requires additional staff of dental hygienists and dental assistants. That program is going on, and it's part of a three-year commitment. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Could the minister indi­ cate what steps are being taken to ensure that the 30 per cent of those students who are not currently receiv­ ing denticare — those in the lower income areas — will be looked after in the immediate future? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I've just outlined that we're in the first of a three-year program to ensure that services are available through the 29 health units and boards of health within the province. That is our over­ all objective, and we are on schedule. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, one further sup­ plementary question.

Is the minister then saying that dental care services will be available to those youths of lower income families who currently are not receiving dental care? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I'm trying to make clear to the hon. member and members of the Assembly that we do have a preventative dental program aimed at young Albertans. It was announced in the Speech from the Throne this year. We're in the first of three years of implementing that program, and it is on schedule. MR. MUSGREAVE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the hon. minister inform the House if part of that program would be to try to persuade the health units in some of the major centres that they should fluoridate their water supply? Discrimination against the Handicapped MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour, with regard to laws to protect the physically disabled from discrimination. What consid­ eration is being given to providing a type of protec­ tion for disabled people? The Canadian Human Rights Commission has indicated that Ontario is going to move into this area.

Has the province of Alberta decided on any type of change of legislation? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, there has been no decision with respect to a change in legislation, despite some gratuitous advice that individuals may be offering. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. As I recall, the minister was consider­ ing it last spring, and last fall the former minister was considering it, and it has been considered now for some years.

Is the minister in a position to outline to the Assembly when we may have a decision on the request of the action committee for the disabled, among other groups including the Human Rights Commission, that we should make changes to The Individual's Rights Protection Act on this score? MR. YOUNG: With pleasure, Mr. Speaker. I stated in the spring sittings that I would be following the procedure of giving the Alberta Human Rights Commission full opportunity to make its presentation on any changes in legislation that it wished to see. The commission has not yet presented that material to me.

The preliminary step in that process is going to

978 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 commence in about 15 minutes, if the question period terminates in 15 minutes. I presume that by the end of 1979 I will have in hand the final views of the commis­ sion with respect to changes it would like to see. I'm not sure whether it will be by the end of October or the end of November, but I do assume that it will be by the end of 1979. When I have what I consider to be those very crucial and important views, with the new evidence or any documentation the commission wishes to provide, I will at that time begin the process of making a deci­ sion, not before.

Annexation Hearings MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. During the spring session, in the course of estimates in his department, the minister gave a tentative time frame as far as the Edmonton annexation hearings are con­ cerned. I would now like to ask the minister if he is in a position to indicate to the Assembly whether we're still looking for a decision on the Edmonton annexation question being made by the government in the first half of 1980, which was within the terms the minister indicated to the Assembly during his estimates. MR. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, I believe I indicated last spring that we hoped the government would be able to make a decision on the Local Authorities Board recommendations by about mid-1980. We've had a delay of roughly one month in the whole process, in that some of the interveners appearing before Mr. Milvain, the chairman of the panel, on the three days on which the panel sat in late September asked for an adjournment of some 60 days. We had anticipated that there might be an adjournment of 30 days. My understanding is that hearings will now recon­ vene in early December.

We have no way of knowing what the length of time will be on those hearings, Mr. Speaker, but we do believe that it is still possible to meet roughly the same time frame that I outlined before; that is, around July 1. But that could be delayed by delays in the hearings themselves and by a conclu­ sion and report by the committee later than I presently anticipate. MR. PAHL: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister could indicate to the House whether the very massive nature of the Edmonton annexation would lead us to expect some delays or amplifications of the hearing process other than would normally occur? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member's representation has undoubtedly been noted by the Assembly. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order dealing with the matter of Motion 219 and in reference to Votes and Proceedings from yesterday, I just wanted to clarify the situation with respect to the designated motion for Thursday next.

As the motion appears on the Order Paper, it indicates that the motion would stand and retain its place on the Order Paper. I wanted to make two points, Mr. Speaker. In deal­ ing with that matter yesterday at the close of the business of the House, I wanted to indicate that gov­ ernment members would be providing unanimous consent to that designation for Thursday next. This might indicate that it would be debated on Tuesday afternoon. I want that clarified for members of the House.

At the same time I want to make it perfectly clear that, in moving the motion as I did, it is not the intention of the government to interfere with the normal private members' business of Tuesday and Thursday afternoons. But as I understand it, at the close of proceedings yesterday there was unanimous consent by members of the opposition and government members that that motion retain its designation for Thursday next. MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. Deputy Government House Leader, it was my understanding that the agreement of the House yesterday was that the motion retain its place on the Order Paper.

It would require further unanimous consent for it to retain its designation because, as hon. members know, the stand­ ing order relating to designation prohibits a motion from being designated a second time. Of course the rules are there to serve the House and not to be its master, so if there is unanimous consent not only that the motion retain its place but that it be the designated motion for next Thursday — this of course would require the full consent of the hon. members of the opposition — it can be done in that way. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is so ordered. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 18.

Moved by Mr. Hyndman:

Be it resolved that the Assembly do resolve itself into Committee of Supply, when called, to consider the Sup­ plementary Estimates of Investments (A) 1979-80 and the 1980-81 Estimates of Proposed Investments of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund, capital projects division; and that the messages of His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor, the said supplementary estimates and estimates, and all matters connected therewith be re­ ferred to the said committee. [Motion carried] CLERK: Government Bills and Orders, second read­ ing; Bill No. 47, the hon. Mr. Moore. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, it was our understand­ ing from the remarks made yesterday by the Acting Government House Leader that we'd now go into committee to deal with the estimates. MR. NOTLEY: Agreed. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move that we meet as Committee of Supply to consider the estimates of the capital projects division.

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 979 [Motion carried] Committee of Supply [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will please come to order. ALBERTA HERITAGE SAVINGS TRUST FUND CAPITAL PROJECTS DIVISION 1980-81 ESTIMATES OF PROPOSED INVESTMENTS MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Provincial Treasurer have any opening remarks? MR. HYNDMAN: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Very well. We'll proceed to the estimates by department. Department of Advanced Education and Manpower 1 — Library Development MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to provide members of the Assembly with a report on what has transpired with respect to the first allocation of $3 million, and to indicate what will take place with respect to the subsequent year which we are proposing to move today.

First, may I say that the objective of this allocation from the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund is, of course, to provide funds to the universities and public colleges in Alberta for the purchase of learning ma­ terials; basically library materials, books, and other ob­ jects of that nature, including certain audio-visual materials. This will help to upgrade and expand the holdings in the libraries of all the institutions I've mentioned, and the Banff Centre. A year ago there was an announcement that $3 million per year for three years would be allocated to this program, for a total of $9 million.

Those were to be allocated to this program for distribution in the form of conditional grants to the designated institu­ tions. We are now in the midst of our first year of that three-year program. I want to describe briefly the allocation process de­ cided upon, There was consultation with the Universi­ ties Co-ordinating Council, which of course is estab­ lished by The Universities Act and has representation on it from the various universities, totalling several representatives from each institution. In addition, there is a council of college presidents and the governing boards of the colleges.

After discussion and lengthy consultation, an initial 1979-1980 allocation was made between the university and college sectors, based upon the historical expenditure of learning materials and considerable value judgment, of course, concerning the relative stage of development of the collections within the institutions. An initial allocation was established as follows: first, the universities would receive $1,850,000 or 62 per cent of the total, and the public colleges would receive $1,150,000 or 38 per cent of the distribution.

The amounts allocated to individual institutions in 1979-80 were determined after consultation, taking into consid­ eration such factors as enrolments, the types of pro­ grams offered, past expenditures on learning ma­ terials, the location of the institutions, and some as­ sessment of the extent to which upgrading of the various collections was required. Therefore, I would like to advise the Assembly of the allocation for the current year, with amounts and per­ centages.

The university sector first: the University of Alberta, $920,000, which is just under half of the total universities' budget, 49.7 per cent, and represents 30.7 per cent of the total; Athabasca University receives $30,000, which represents 1.6 per cent of the university sector and 1 per cent of the total; the University of Calgary, $740,000, or 40 per cent of the sector and 24.8 per cent of the total; the University of Lethbridge, $110,000, 6 per cent of the universities' portion and 3.8 per cent of the total; the Banff Centre — which of course has its own legislation and is included with the universities for the sake of convenience in dealing with these matters — $50,000, 2.7 per cent of the sector, 1.7 per cent of the total.

Public colleges have different requirements, of co­ urse, and some offering university transfer programs may have received more funding than others. Fairview College, $75,000; Grande Prairie, $115,000; Grant MacEwan, $175,000; Keyano College, $75,000; Lake­ land College, $75,000; Lethbridge Community Col­ lege, $115,000, and the same amount for Medicine Hat College; Mount Royal, $175,000; and Olds College and Red Deer College, $115,000 each. Those receiving $75,000 received 6.5 per cent of the college portion, which works out to 2.5 per cent of the total.

Those receiving $115,000 received 10 per cent of the college total and 3.8 per cent of the total. Those receiving $175,000 received 15.2 per cent of the college portion, which works out to 5.8 per cent of the total. The guidelines established in consultation with the bodies I've mentioned indicate that the funds are to be used solely for the purchase of learning materials. In other words, it is a capital project and therefore must meet the standards — books, periodicals, journals, mi­ crofiche, microfilm, and audio-visual materials.

It is clear that the funds may not be used for salaries or the acquisition of furnishings and equipment. I've had some discussions on that subject with the various insti­ tutions, and I'm pleased that, while there may be some difficulties in accommodating the extra material, it is nevertheless being accommodated in the normal budgeting process by the institutions in question. Each institution is required to maintain its condi­ tional grant in a special purpose fund, and to provide regular reports to the department.

These reports will include progress made towards meeting the objective of the grant, in addition to statements of expenditures and commitments. In addition, institutions are expected to maintain at least the same level of expenditure on library materials from their regular operating budgets. This is not a replacement, therefore, of what is normally expended by institutions in the acquisition of library materials. I'm pleased with the progress to date.

The institu­ tions have established guidelines for the internal re­ view and evaluation of their current library holdings to identify deficiencies in their present collections, and to establish priorities for the acquisition of new materials.

980 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 Secondly, the universities are pursuing the develop­ ment of an Alberta universities interlibrary loan system. I think that's very significant, to facilitate the ex­ change of library materials, and to avoid and minimize duplication as much as possible. [interjection] If there are questions following my opening remarks, I'll be glad to take them down. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, my question was certainly not one to interrupt the minister. But I thought at that point I'd appreciate a little more detail on the co-ordination of library services.

Are you think­ ing in terms of computer use, some communication technique or telecommunications — that sort of ex­ planation from the minister. MR. HORSMAN: Thank you. I don't anticipate that computers are part of it at this stage. They have not yet finalized the development of the system, so at this stage it's difficult to give details. But it is encouraging that they are meeting, discussing, and working out me­ thods of exchanging this information. Of course, I want to highlight the fact that they are in the process of doing that.

They have not yet finalized their discus­ sions, but when that is done, I'm sure members of the Assembly will take an interest in that matter. I'm glad the hon. Member for Little Bow has indicated his inter­ est. I look forward to receiving a report from the department, and I think it would be useful to circulate that information to members of the Assembly. Thirdly, the colleges are co-operating in further development of their library standards and evaluation criteria, which is, of course, in addition to what the universities are doing.

To date, an estimated $1.5 mil­ lion has been expended or committed from the current allocation of $3 million, so about half the funds have been expended by the institutions. The rate of acquisi­ tion of library materials is accelerating as detailed as­ sessment of library holdings is being completed by the institutions.

With respect to the allocation being sought by this appropriation, we wish to indicate that in addition to the criteria used to determine allocations for this year, next year's grants will reflect careful assessment of progress made to date by each institution in upgrad­ ing and expanding library holdings. Allocations between the university and college sectors could change. The percentages in effect this year may not necessarily be the percentages which will be deter­ mined in each succeeding year. That would also apply to allocations to individual institutions. It is a matter of consultation and discussion.

I am very pleased that that is being carried out with the spirit of co-operation that I've noted in all my visits to institutions in Alberta. In

summary, I think it's fair to say that the library development grants have been warmly welcomed by the universities and colleges. There is a conscious ef­ fort to make the most effective use of this significant allocation from the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund. I would urge hon. members of the Assembly to see fit to grant the allocations sought in this appro­ priation. I would be pleased to answer any questions prior to moving this allocation. DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister. I very much agree with this amount of funding and the purposes to which it's directed.

I wonder if you might comment on another very inter­ esting feature of education within this province, the Alberta heritage learning resources project. Is that box of books to be distributed under this grant to the university and college libraries as well? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the hon. member, my colleague in Education has a vote deal­ ing with that matter later in the appropriations. Per­ haps that question might be reserved for that occasion. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further comments? MR. PAHL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I simply thought the question was appropriate.

Were those books being placed in universities as well? That shouldn't be too hard to come to grips with. MR. HORSMAN: I'm advised by my colleague the Minister of Education that those Alberta heritage learning resources books are indeed being made avail­ able to college and university libraries in Alberta. MR. KNAAK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a comment and a suggestion, if I may. I think it's very appropriate that the Department of Advanced Educa­ tion and Manpower consider the upgrading of indi­ viduals and the learning process a matter of capital.

In other words, returns to Alberta will increase as you improve the educational quality of Albertans. I think it's appropriate for this funding to come from the capital division of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund. I want to make one further suggestion to the Minis­ ter of Advanced Education and Manpower, Mr. Chair­ man — I've made this suggestion before, but I think this is an appropriate forum as well — to consider the establishment of an endowment fund in the amount of $30 million to provide postgraduate scholarships for Albertans to any university in the world, including Alberta, of course.

The purpose is for Albertans to be able, without financial impediment, to pick up exper­ tise from around the world and to bring it back. A $30 million endowment will make it a limited scholarship; there will not be a lot of scholarships. You'll develop a certain amount of exclusiveness in this kind of scholar­ ship. It will rank somewhat in the area of a Rhodes or Woodrow Wilson scholarship. And that's the way it should be. The purpose, of course, is to aid in the development of Alberta as a brain centre in Canada and North America. That's all; thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further comments? MR.

MACK: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. I note that the appropriations are similar for both periods. Is there any consideration to expanding that? This may well be in keeping with the type of program the hon. Member for Edmonton Whitemud indicated. MR. HORSMAN: Perhaps if there are other comments or suggestions, I could answer them all at one time. I'll make note of the questions and answer them individually. DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister. Perhaps I missed it in the list of institutions

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 981 receiving funds for library development, but were SAIT and NAIT included in that? MR. CHAIRMAN: If there are no further questions, perhaps the minister would now answer those two. MR. HORSMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. In reply to the hon. Member for Edmonton Whitemud, I welcome his suggestion for the establishment of a capital endow­ ment fund for scholarships. I have taken note of comments made during the course of the hearings of the select committee with respect to an endowment fund.

Some very useful suggestions have been made in that committee, as well as the one made today by the hon. member. I think there are exciting possibilities for our institu­ tions in Alberta, and for Albertans, with such a propos­ al. However, it is not in this year's estimates. Therefore, I will have to take the advice I received today from the hon. member and the advice I will be receiving from the committee when it reports.

In addition, I think it's fair to say that I have asked university presidents and boards to consider preparing proposals of this nature, and to make them available to me for consideration in the coming months. Certainly I think there is a good deal of merit in what has been suggested today and on other occasions. I will look forward to pursuing that with my colleagues in ca­ binet and caucus as we deal with next year's appropriations. With respect to the question, almost by way of a supplementary, by the hon.

Member for Edmonton Belmont: when the program in its present form was announced, it was a three-year program of $3 million each year. No additional amount has been considered for extraneous factors, such as inflation and so on. I think it's fair to say that the current program, being of limited duration, will see its way through regular progress. As I indicated in my response to the hon. Member for Edmonton Whitemud, I'm certainly open to additional suggestions — and indeed encourage them — from hon. members and the public as to how we might approach an endowment type of funding in future years.

I think there are exciting prospects. I'd encourage all hon. members to make suggestions in the course of the next several months. I would like to pursue that as a matter of policy, and hopefully obtain support from my other colleagues for future years. In answer to the hon. Member for Calgary Millican — I almost said Edmonton Millican; that would be a terrible mistake, wouldn't it — SAIT and NAIT were not included because they are provincially administered institutions.

The funds were made available to publicly governed institutions, not to provincially administered institutions, because that type of funding would nor­ mally come through the publicly administered institu­ tions under the regular budgeting process. Mr. Chairman, I think I've answered the questions which have been put forward. Unless there are others, I would like to move that the appropriation be reported. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed, I wonder if the committee would give permission to the Minister of Agriculture and MLA for Wetaskiwin-Leduc to revert to introduction of visitors? HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, it is a privilege this morning for me to introduce to you, and through you to the members of this Assembly, a group of 35 grades 7 and 8 students from the Lakedell school in my con­ stituency. They are accompanied by their principal, Mr. Richard Asp, and their bus driver Mr. Gist, and are seated in the members gallery.

I would ask them to rise and receive the welcome of this Assembly. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Committee of Supply) ALBERTA HERITAGE SAVINGS TRUST FUND CAPITAL PROJECTS DIVISION 1980-81 ESTIMATES OF PROPOSED INVESTMENTS Department of Advanced Education and Manpower (continued) MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe the hon. Leader of the Opposition has a comment or question. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. I welcome the comments with regard to looking at this whole question of some kind of scholarship. I've made the argument before in the select committee, but in the receptive mood you're in this morning, Mr.

Minister, I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity to remind you of the Queen Elizabeth scholarship program which was established during the first visit of the Queen to the province. It seems to me it would be rather appropriate for us to look at setting aside a portion of the Heritage Savings Trust Fund — I would suggest that the discussion might start at something like $100 million, and the interest on that might be something like $10 million a year — as really an endowment fund availa­ ble to Alberta students in postsecondary education in­ stitutions.

I want to make that very clear — not just to the universities, but to postsecondary education institu­ tions. For an undergraduate student who spends four years at university — let's assume the assistance was of the magnitude of something like $2,500 a year. This would help some 4,000 students, and would remove the indebtedness students have when they leave universities, to a maximum of something like $10,000. I recognize, Mr. Minister, that this isn't the day to debate this.

But in light of the comments the minister has made about getting views on this matter from people in the universities and others, I want to say, please look forward to the recommendations from the Heritage Savings Trust Fund select committee, be­ cause we've had some excellent discussions on the point by the Member for Edmonton Whitemud and other members. I just want to underscore those recommenda­ tions when they reach the minister's desk. MR. HORSMAN: If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to respond to the comments by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. I think the point he has made is very valid.

I want to make it clear that in considering future proposals, we should not limit ourselves to universities

982 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 in Alberta. Indeed, I would think that in view of the very dramatic changes taking place in Alberta, we must extend any such program to our technical insti­ tutions, as well as the colleges. I would welcome suggestions as to how we can encourage students coming from the primary and secondary education sys­ tem to continue their courses of study either in Alberta or elsewhere, not only at universities but at some of the more highly advanced and qualified technical institutions. For example, the hon. Member for Three Hills was just on a family visit to Germany.

As a member of the education committee of the government caucus, on my behalf she visited some institutes in Germany which are offering very highly skilled trades training. I am very impressed indeed by what the hon. Member for Three Hills told me is being done in West Germany. I think it is clear that that type of thing has to be considered as well. I welcome the suggestions I have received from the hon. Member for Edmonton Whitemud, the hon. Member for Three Hills, the hon. Leader of the Oppo­ sition, and members of the select committee on the Heritage Savings Trust Fund.

I'm sure we can ap­ proach this whole project with a great deal of co­ operation from all members of the Assembly, regard­ less of where they sit, because it's not the type of thing that should become political. As hon. members appre­ ciate, I try very hard not to be partisan on all occasions. At any rate, I do think the suggestions that have been made are very worth while, and I do want to encourage all hon. members to give this further con­ sideration and get their suggestions to me in the next few months. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, might I simply say, we welcome the minister's invitation in fact to look at this whole question of perhaps a 75th Anniversary scholarship fund or something of that kin on neutral ground, if I might use that term. MR. NOTLEY: Unaccustomed ground for the minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further comments by any members of the committee? Perhaps for the benefit of some of the members of the committee who may not have been here last fall when we had consideration of the estimates of the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, capital projects division, I would indicate the procedure for you.

What we're doing right now, as we approve each vote, is in effect approving a resolution which will be reported to the Assembly. Agreed to: 1 — Library Development $3,000,000 MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move the resolution be reported. [Motion carried] Department of Agriculture 1 — Farming for the Future MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the minister have any comments? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, in commenting on Farming for the Future, we feel research is the key to the growth of agriculture in this province.

Of course, past research has provided us with much better varieties of grain, livestock breeds, and efficient machinery and has certainly led to the successes of agriculture in this province. Farming for the Future came into being and got well under way last year, with some 60 projects being funded under the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, a total of $10 million over five years. Through the management, we had the opportunity to review and add 10 new projects to the existing numbers, and of course the ongoing funding of most of the 60 is to continue.

The Agricultural Research Council of Alberta has had the opportunity to review those 10 projects. In the funding being asked, the $2 million allocated under the research program should continue those that re­ quire an annual following of funding out of the 60, plus a start for the new 10. They cover a variety of products. There are eight basic divisions under the Heritage Savings Trust Fund and, of course, each is considered in the division into which it falls. The 10 new projects give us a reasonable coverage of agricul­ ture in total.

The prime ones, I suppose, are the funding being done in conjunction with other western provinces. In the research going on at the Western College of Veterinary Medicine at Saskatoon on scours in both cattle and hogs, we've had some excellent break­ throughs in the discovery of a vaccine to fight scours in cattle. Of course the continuing research will study the viruses and the effect the vaccine has on scours in both cattle and pigs. The new programs go to investigations of the economics of overwintering bees, a large part of the agricultural program based mainly in the northern part of the province.

We've gone to provincial guide­ lines and, hopefully, research to provide some of the answers for soil drainage in the method of construc­ tion as it affects the basic costs, whether it be on straight drainage or the further effect on drainage involved in the irrigation sections as well. Another program added this year is the different varieties of winter wheat and their resistance to snow mould. That will be an ongoing program. Hopefully the end results will produce a wheat that is resistant to snow mould to a much better degree than exists to date.

In specialty crops, greenhouse vegetable growing: a new program of research in the greenhouse industry against disease — leaf wilt, this type of thing — that seems to be an ongoing problem of people involved in the greenhouse industry. An opportunity is here for research to try to solve some problems for those special­ ty crops. A program directed to research into the reorganization and forecasting of nutritional prob­ lems, of course, is part of the greenhouse research itself.

Another fund to compare fertilizer rates to cattle nutrition with regard to forage applications is going to be carried out by private industry. One area of funding is for research to come up with some low-cost alternatives to the present systems of seeding and open­ ing up grazing lands, the improvement of carrying capacities of pasture land. A complete study of, and research in, ovulation in both sheep and cattle for the

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 983 livestock industry. Mr. Chairman, we could carry on, I suppose. I could give you and perhaps those interested in programs that are already ongoing — I'd be happy to provide the areas of research that were included last year and, of course, the continuing funding of those, plus the additions. I would say that we have a reasonable spread throughout the eight basic areas established for re­ search and funding, covering just about every aspect of agriculture as it fits into the province and as it affects each geographic area of the province.

I think we all agree that, geographically, research done in northern Alberta may have a different effect in other parts of the province on the same basic commod­ ity or the efforts being made in the direction of growth from a production point of view. So we've had to take into consideration the areas of research and the geographic areas as they fit in, trying to get a complete overview so the benefits of research cover practically every product grown in this province. The information available should be of some use to each geographic location in the province. I'm pleased with the direction it's been going.

I might add that if you were to evaluate the total program in the livestock industry, and the break­ through we have had in Saskatoon with the joint enterprise in which we are sharing to fight scours in cattle and hogs, it far exceeds the benefits of the total program. In the area of research, one year is a rather small item. So we look forward to the ongoing research in the various areas, and would ask for the support of all hon. members in asking for a further $2 million to continue research in the agricultural industry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, just some very brief comments.

We certainly have no problem, Mr. Minis­ ter, in supporting the request for an appropriation of $2 million. But there are two areas where I'd appreciate some elaboration or explanation. One is the area of co-ordination of all agricultural research. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Minister, but I recognize there are research people from the federal government on the Agricultural Research Council of Alberta. But how are we co-ordinating the overall re­ search activity?

I take into consideration what's being done by the federal government through their agri­ cultural research centres, not only in Alberta but in western Canada, and the work being done at the Facul­ ty of Agriculture. Mr. Minister, it's one thing to say we have a representative from the Faculty of Agricul­ ture on the committee.

I guess what I really want to be assured of, rather than that representation is there, is that there is some meaningful cross-referencing before one funding is coming from the $2 million, which we basically support, or when research grants are coming from the federal Agriculture Department or other re­ search institutions. I'm not arguing at all that we should be cutting back on agricultural research. I think we may, in fact, need more money in that area, Mr. Minister. But I want to be sure we're getting the best possible value out of the dollars being spent. Secondly, Mr.

Minister, I'd ask you to comment some time, in a general way, with regard to the research that's been going on in the weather modification project in the central portion of the province. I know that's research outside this allocation. But I think it would be helpful to get some indication, perhaps not here, of the minister's thinking with regard to the possibility of tying in what's being done there with at least some aspects of what's being done here, or some overall mechanism that may develop so that there would be a continuation. MR.

NOTLEY: If the minister wishes to answer indi­ vidual members separately, that would be fine, Mr. Chairman; whatever is most convenient. If he does, I'll get up afterwards. Or take us all together? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, while it's fresh in my mind . . . I would hate to leave one segment of research out of my answers. With regard to the question of whether there are duplications in an area of research, whether it be feder­ ally or provincially funded, or even within an industry itself — I gather that's really what it's all about.

Of course, that has to go much deeper in the area of funding as well, so that we're getting value received throughout the province regardless of who is paying for the actual research. In reply to the Leader of the Opposition, I'd have to say I'm convinced we are getting that cross-reference. We're doing it in two ways: not only with the federal representation we have, but working very closely with the universities in the province of Alberta, which are well aware of the ongoing areas of research, and knowing that the universities are well aware of who is footing the bill.

So we don't have that problem of cross-reference. We have tried, through the committee, either to do research that is not being done at the present time or, if it's going to be a joint funding arrangement, a continuation of research that has already been started. As we go on, this may take a broader view in supple­ menting some type of research that's been started fed­ erally, and over the years, because of many circum­ stances, may need a boost, whether financially or otherwise, to continue. The one that comes to mind is the Breton Plots.

In 50 years of research it has done an excellent job dealing with the gray-wooded soils in this province. Because of the vast amount of gray-wooded soils in the province, the information that has been gained over the years is necessary and invaluable to us; first, because of the time frame and, secondly, because it deals with a commodity of which we have a large amount. I for one would certainly wish to see us carry on, as a province, if there was any chance that the Breton experimental plots were to discontinue.

I think those are areas where we should have that combined research feeling and opportunity to discuss — either share or take over. In general, I feel quite happy that the research areas we are entering into are those that are either new, or tied directly to the province of Alberta. The results of that research in which we are sharing tie back to this province. To my knowledge there are no areas where we're overlapping, other than complementing. We'll certainly continue to watch it. In areas of research we certainly may have conflicting views, but let's not have conflicting dollars. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, if I might pose three further areas. Mr. Minister, once we get to a point where — let's take the Breton Plots and the 50 years of research that has been done. One of the difficulties I

984 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 sometimes have is: when you get to the 50 years and pull together what's been ascertained, if that's the cor­ rect scientific term, then to go from there to the practi­ cal application. It seems to me, whether it's in agricul­ tural research, medical research, or wherever, that be­ comes one of the really tough areas. I'm suggesting, Mr. Minister, that some time in the future it may be advisable to come to the Heritage Savings Trust Fund and talk in terms of some assistance in that area. Right now, I have no predetermined scheme as to how that might be done.

But it does seem to me that ofttimes we have real difficulty with the practical application. I'd be interested in the minister's comment there. Mr. Chairman, just one last area before I sit down. Mr. Minister, has there been any indication of the federal government pulling back research funds avail­ able to Alberta, as a result of the Heritage Savings Trust Fund money being available here?

In the course of preparation for the Bill introduced this morning by the Premier on medical research, one of the points that was made very often to us by medical researchers was that, once the announcement had been made that Al­ berta was going to have this endowment, the tendency by national funding agencies has been to pull money back and say, you Albertans are going to get your money from this endowment that's being set up, so the federal government no long feels it has a responsibili­ ty.

Is that kind of, if I could use the term, narrow attitude from Ottawa rearing its head at all as far as funding for agriculture research is concerned? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, it's indeed something that we should watch. I think it's possible. We had a very short opportunity to discuss collectively, on behalf of provinces across Canada, the need for further re­ search with regard to agriculture. One always puts oneself in a tough position if one has a program, regardless of the size.

But I'm sure the greater the research program that is funded provincially, the hard­ er one has to fight to maintain a fair flow of research dollars federally, and funnel them into those areas that we would like to see the federal department involved in. It's one of the dangers we have, I guess. But despite the danger in the funding aspect, I think research in agriculture is desperately needed if we're going to meet the challenges that lie ahead of us.

We will certainly make representation, so that the province receives its fair share of funding for those areas of research that we feel the federal government should be funding and, indeed, we will continue with the provincial program of research. One comment with regard to weather modification. Hopefully within a week or 10 days we will have the opportunity to table in the House the final report on weather modification research. Where we go from here — that decision hasn't been made. The last research is tied more heavily to hail suppression than to any other aspect of weather modification.

There are other aspects of weather modification research that one should con­ sider. If the program is to continue, perhaps it should be broadened. I mention in the area of weather modification — well, to put it in general terms, rain-making — the opportunity to extract whatever moisture is available out of certain clouds that lend themselves, because of temperatures and pressures, to releasing the moisture that they have. I'm very interested in one area that I think could and should be researched, if continuation were the practice and one were to broaden.

I would like to see some activities in, and the opportunity to look at, snowpack as it relates to the Eastern Slopes. Some research that is ongoing is more from the recreational aspect, in trying to guarantee or glean snow peaks for skiers throughout the world. If that can be achieved, and it has been in some areas, I think further research could be done on guaranteeing a snowpack for our watershed if the ranges in the East­ ern Slopes that we would be interested in meet the criteria of temperature and pressure during our winter months, early winter, or even early spring.

Research in that area may give us the guarantees that are required for long-term planning in regard to the future life of irrigation in this province and indeed beyond, because the Eastern Slopes control a watershed which goes far beyond our needs and enters into Saskatchewan and areas of the United States. That is, of course, another aspect of research we'll be discussing at a later time. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I have four or five questions. Mr. Minister, could we begin by having the total number of dollars that are going to be spent on research this year in Alberta?

We have the $2 million we're allocating, some research that is proceeding in the normal course of department activity, and federal research. I wonder, Mr. Minister, if you could give us the total number of dollars, among all these different facets, that will be invested in agricultural research in the province this year. Secondly, I'd be interested in knowing how much of the $2 million that we're going to be investing this year from the Heritage Trust Fund would be in proj­ ects related to transportation, processing, and marketing. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that a number of issues arise.

If there was ever a time when additional agricultural research is required, it is right now. One of the reasons for posing the first two questions is that I want to be assured in my own mind that we are making available enough money to do the job proper­ ly. Ten million dollars over five years may seem like a lot of money. But compared to research in oil sands, for example, it's a drop in the bucket. We just want to make sure that we're doing an adequate job. If more money is required to keep pace with the needs, Mr. Minister, I think we as an Assembly have to consider additional funding.

I wanted to make a couple of comments and pose questions about the transportation, processing, and marketing divisions of the fund. This year, are we allocating resources from Farming for the Future to undertake research into the economic impact on farm­ ers of, for example, energy price increases? This is going to have some very major effects on the ability of the average farmer to stay in business.

Secondly, on the question of transportation, you will recall that last year one of the recommendations of the heritage trust fund was that we undertake a major cost/benefit study of transportation in northwestern Alberta. It has been tabled in the House. The press was certainly present; it was an open session of the commit­ tee. The select committee is recommending this year that we undertake a major investigation of rail links in northern Alberta, period, to assess the feasi­ bility of rail connections in the northern part of the province.

I would be interested whether any funds will be allocated from Farming for the Future this year to

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 985 pursue assessment of the merits of making rail links, especially in view of the fact that we're invest­ ing a lot of money now, and correctly so, in Prince Rupert. Just a couple of pages over we're voting $15 million to purchase hopper cars, and I think all members of the House support that.

But it seems to me that if we're going to make proper use of Prince Rupert, and if we're going to invest substantially in hopper cars, at the same point we have to examine seriously whether there shouldn't be additional rail connections to im­ prove the efficiency of the rail network in this province. Finally, this is a follow-up to some of the questions on weather modification that have been raised by the official opposition. I don't agree with the scare stories we've heard over the last few years about the climate changing dramatically. But it does seem to me, Mr.

Chairman, that in our agricultural research we have to be cognizant that if there is a slow but perceptible decrease in the average temperature in Canada gener­ ally, that's going to have to be a major focus, particu­ larly as it applies to various types of field crops. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, I don't have the total dollar factor that is going to be spent within this province on research on behalf of the federal govern­ ment, coupled with the areas of research we're doing. I could perhaps get that figure for you.

The informa­ tion that I have in actual dollars is tied to the areas of responsibility of the province, and indeed to this vote itself. The hon. member has mentioned some areas of re­ sponsibility that require in-depth study and research for the future. I would have to agree that there are areas.

In the total area of transportation, and we've touched upon some of the areas — evaluation of new areas of embarkation of grain such as Rupert, the rail system itself, research that should be done internally through­ out the province as to the effects of any changes in either rail or truck transportation, and changes in the internal system of handling grain with the inland terminal system — I think that research should be funded separately. I think the magnitude of the dollars that would be required — and I'm not saying it's not necessary — would deplete Farming for the Future in almost one fell swoop.

I don't think that was the intent. In fact, that's not the way Farming for the Future started. We have made some ongoing commitments to some of the areas of research which will become annual commitments over the five-year period of the program. If one were to deplete the funds, it would certainly hinder any re­ search and cut it far short of coming to any conclu­ sion. So if that type of research is to be tied directly to the total philosophy and the review of transportation, my suggestion would be that it be elsewhere than Farming for the Future.

The ongoing programs tied directly with the area the hon. member has mentioned basically have been tied to processing of both rapeseed oil and rapeseed meal, and all the problems associated with it. The farm management field laboratory, which is tied to the communications link with various farm programs and farm machinery, is an ongoing base. I guess they're the only two which would tie close to manufacturing, nutrition, and transportation that you mention. The additions, of course, are tied mainly to the live­ stock industry — beef, hogs, dairy cattle, and horses — and the one I mentioned in apiculture.

Cereal and oilseed crops have been added to those that already exist. So the area of transportation has, to date, been ex­ cluded from the point of view, at least along the lines the hon. member is discussing. Certainly some answers will be forthcoming there, but I don't think it should come through this forum. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Minister, my comments are some­ what concerned with the breeding of wheat. I realize part of it is a federal responsibility, and some of it is carried on at the research station in Lethbridge. What concerns me are the problems with soft white wheat.

You have heard me ask you and the former minister a number of questions about the quality and the move­ ment of this wheat. What is happening now: we're using the American varieties of this wheat and really just assessing them in Lethbridge, not breeding for our country. There is a difference of some 10 days between the growing season here and in the States, where these varieties are particu­ larly high quality and high yield per acre. We often have problems with quality here because of the lateness of the planting and the problems in fall.

I know the soft white wheat growers have attempted to get a breeding program started. I'd just like the minister's comments relative to this, because it's something that needs to be bred here. The bean industry is much the same. We're using many of the varieties from the States and just reasses­ sing them here. We're not really breeding them here. I think we often run into problems; we may have a few good years, then we run into a few bad years. I wonder if the minister sees this as part of the Farming for the Future program at some time? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Chairman, the development of white wheat varieties has, of course, been a concern of the group of specialty growers in southern Alberta, and indeed are looking at some upgrading of the varieties that exist. An application was made on behalf of the white wheat varieties, and an amount of $18,000 has been allocated to Beaverlodge to carry out some research with a strain of white wheat. I suppose, be­ cause of its location, it's a variety that would adapt to other than just southern Alberta. So some research is being done in providing and, hopefully, coming up with new varieties of white wheat. MRS.

CRIPPS: I'm glad to hear the minister mention the Breton Plots. They are located in the gray-wooded area of Alberta. It's true that they have been research­ ing the effects of fertilizers and crop rotation for the past 50 years. At the field day in July it was quite evident that the continuation of the plots was in ques­ tion because of budget constraints. Traditionally, they have been funded from Advanced Education and Man­ power through the University of Alberta. In view of the fact that over 60 per cent of Alberta is gray-wooded soil, I would hope that funding will be considered through Farming for the Future.

The second question: is expansion of the research project, such as long-term effects of fertilizers, herbi­ cides, and insecticides, being considered? I am refer­ ring to soil acidity and micro-organisms living in the soils.

986 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to share the Breton days with the hon. Member for Dray­ ton Valley. I think the statement made at that time was that, in recognizing the work done in the Breton Plots over the period of 50 years, the province of Alberta would certainly not see that program in jeopardy if it was a matter of funding. That commitment was made, and we will stand by that promise. Whether or not it would be funded through Farming for the Future — it would be an ideal area for it to fall under, but not necessarily.

With regard to the depth of our research, the activi­ ties and submissions of the various projects take in every aspect, of course, and I would have to say, yes, in total. They may not be under one program collectively, but I do know that the irrigation districts in southern Alberta are deeply interested in seepage and the salini­ ty problem. Although their research may be tied direct­ ly to the irrigation problem, research is ongoing in the areas the hon. member has mentioned. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Chairman, I appreciated the re­ marks of the minister with regard to the weather modification program.

I certainly am supportive of the aspects of that research with regard to hail suppression and increased rainfall. The portion of his remarks which prompted me to rise was with regard to using weather modification measures for increased snowpack. As a skier, I certainly appreciate that if we can use weather modification to increase snowfall on our ski hills in the Eastern Slopes and the mountain areas, it would be supported. I also support the aspect of increased snowpack with regard to watershed management, using it as a tool to in­ crease the amount of water we eventually get from our watershed areas.

I'd like to express one note of caution with regard to weather modification and increased snowpack in the mountain areas. In my mind, there would tend to be a spillover into the foothills areas. I would be very con­ cerned what effect that might have on cattle operations in the foothills. I have had concern for that expressed to me. With late spring snows, we have experienced down there quite a remarked effect on cattle operations.

I have a real concern whether this weather modification program with regard to snowpack may have an effect on snowfall in the foothills area that would have an adverse effect on cattle operations. I'd like to get an assurance from the minister that his department would proceed with extreme caution with regard to the effect weather modification may have on cattle operations in the foothills. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to clarify one point. The hon. member is discussing snowpack as if it were a foregone conclusion.

The comment I made is that weather modification, as carried out by the province of Alberta to date, has zeroed in on hail suppression. If we were to look at research in this province and continue weather modification, the ques­ tion is: if it should continue, do you continue within the same terms of reference or broaden your scope? I recognize there are problems in all areas of research and, of course, those will have to be considered if weather modification continues and, if it does, if it is to be broadened. So I recognize the problem.

Certainly it would be one of the considerations in making a deci­ sion as to the direction we should go in the continua­ tion or discontinuation of weather modification in total. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Chairman, if I could continue. I recognize that the minister's remarks were in terms of an expansion of the program or what direction it should take. I just wanted to register the caution with regard to the effect such research may have in the foothills area. MR. SCHMIDT: I recognize and appreciate the hon. member's concern. Weather modification is a very broad subject.

Alberta has been doing its research over a period of five years, with a one-year extension. It's very difficult to call upon other areas throughout the world that have been doing sufficient work or research in weather modification to achieve any great number of answers that would give us any guarantees. So I appreciate the concern and recognize it. Certainly there will be many considerations involving the Eastern Slopes, if and when a direction were to go to snowpack. MR. BRADLEY: Just further, Mr. Chairman, in re­ gard to the question.

I guess the concern expressed is that when you get into weather modification, you cannot really guarantee the area in which the precipi­ tation may fall. If there were some guarantee that the snow would fall in the mountain areas where it could increase the snowpack and have an effect on the wa­ tershed, so be it. I know there's been some effect on some of the ski hills in the States with regard to increased snowfall. But I just wanted to register the caution that it can spill over into areas where it may have an adverse effect. DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister.

It may seem strange that I'm standing here, but I put my hand over my button and my heart, because agriculture is very much a part of Calgary Millican, in terms of not only the stockyards but a tremendous number of areas related to the agricultural supply business. But in terms of this specific proposal on page 2 under "special crops", I wonder if the minister might make some comment with regard to whether shelter belts, the growing of shrubs and trees, and distribution of seedlings all come into the area of his department, or is that done under federal jurisdic­ tion through the horticultural stations?

I'm not quite certain. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Agriculture has always operated two nurseries, one at Brooks and one at Oliver, and will continue to be in the business of growing shrubs for shelter belts. The nursery at Oliver lends itself to the production of seedl­ ings, both conifers and other varieties.

The agricul­ tural service boards throughout the province, which are an arm of local governments throughout rural Alberta, have been distributing the proceeds of the growth that Oliver produces, making them available to people in rural Alberta for shelter belts, and have indeed given the opportunity for homestead beautifica- tion in some cases. Of course, the research going on at Brooks has always been in the other branch; that is, working on types of shrubs that one would grow in beautifying farmsteads and propagating fruit trees, new varieties

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 987 that lend themselves more to the province of Alberta because of our climatic conditions. So it doesn't show as research funding through Farming for the Future, but it has been and will continue to be part of the ongoing expenditures of the day to day operation of agriculture. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions or comments with regard to this vote? Agreed to: 1 — Farming For the Future $2,000,000 MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, I move the resolution be reported. [Motion carried] 2 — Irrigation Rehabilitation and Expansion MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Minister, do you have any pre­ liminary remarks? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, just a brief remark. The Department of Agriculture announced the total reha­ bilitation of the irrigation system within the province, and $200 million was set aside for upgrading irriga­ tion within this province. To refer basically to the $90 million set aside to be administered under the Depart­ ment of Agriculture for the upgrading, rehabilita­ tion, and expansion of the irrigation districts within the province, the program is well under way, and it's been well accepted.

The 13 irrigation districts throughout the province have been utilizing the funds, I think, to the extent they are physically capable of achieving each year. Their advancement and the work they would like to do throughout the rehabilitation portion of this fund seem to be meeting their needs as fast as they can physically meet the upgrading requirements. The upgrading system itself — and I think we touched upon it when we were discussing research — has, over a period of years, brought to light the two areas of concern: seepage and, through seepage, the salinity problem.

Also in the upgrading program, which ir­ rigation districts have been involved in, and the con­ creting of the new upgraded district areas, the tem­ peratures we live with in this province and the prob­ lems they've had with poured concrete heaving in have provided perhaps another area of research for which they're showing some concern.

So the only thing I could add for hon. members is that the appropriation of over $11 million covers the requests to date for the coming year for the programs in the 13 districts, which certainly vary in size, depend­ ing upon the size of the district and the amount of flow each is responsible for. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, to the hon. minister. Mr. Minister, are you in a position to give some indication to the committee as to the appropriateness of the $90 million to do the job we initially set out to do?

From discussions my colleagues and I have had with some of the irrigation districts, I know that question continues to come up — not in a negative manner, but to say, look, how much of the rehabilitation work that needs to be done will $90 million meet? Mr. Minister, I notice the heading Irrigation Reha­ bilitation and Expansion. Where do we sit on expan­ sion right now, as far as bringing in new areas are concerned? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, first with regard to the $90 million.

I think it has been stated, not only by myself but others, that in looking at irrigation in this province, the announcement some time ago of $200 million was an estimate to achieve what we felt would bring the irrigation system in this province up to a basic standard. Of course over the years, rising costs and other factors were involved. At the end of that term, if the total achievement hasn't been reached . . . An irrigation system is not unlike 12 miles of road: if you gravel 11 miles and leave one mile of dirt, you have lost the other 11 because you can't get onto it or utilize the full 12 miles.

So I would have to say that if we have not achieved the upgrading, which we agreed to or attempted under the amounts of funding at that time, we certainly would be looking at an area to complete the project and would have no hesitation in making an application for funding to achieve that end. With regard to the areas of expansion, I think all the districts have collectively agreed that no district should expand or take in further land for irrigation before we can absolutely guarantee that district a source of water supply that will provide water for every acre they're accepting.

So in most areas we have a so-called mora­ torium on the acceptance of more land to bring under cultivation, pending the outcome and the guarantee of a source of water. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Chairman, I had a great many questions, but the minister's overview has answered most of them. Mr. Minister, I note that the amount this year, $11.21 million, is almost half of what has been expended to date. It appears the industry and the dis­ tricts have geared up and are gaining somewhat on the amount of work done, in that they are able to spend more money on upgrading.

Has the minister any idea if this is the result of inflation or the result of their gearing up the industry to achieve a greater amount of work on upgrading of the systems? Secondly, Mr. Chairman, I have received much corre­ spondence and talk from the districts with reference to the 84:16 formula. I'd like the minister to comment on this formula with regard to the program of rehabilita­ tion and expansion of the districts and the commitment we made for $90 million sometime in 1975? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Chairman, in reply to the hon. member's comment with regard to upgrading and the speed at which we are achieving it, I think it has to go back to the districts themselves. The upgrading pro­ gram has brought them into a position of becoming perhaps more efficient. More people are involved in the industry who deal directly with irrigation rehabilita­ tion. Having increased their capacity to rehabilitate would certainly be a mark of excellence for the irriga­ tion districts. I think that really has been the prime reason for a catch-up of the ongoing rehabilitation program.

We have recognized those areas in trying to fund their rehabilitation programs in the capacity each one can achieve. Because of their size, both of district and of numbers, the 13 vary. Last year might be a prime example. I think about $9 million was expended in the upgrading program and rehabilitating their districts. This year a request

988 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 from three larger areas that are taking on, and are physically capable of taking on, more work in the rehabilitation program made up the difference between the $9 million and the $11 million. The addition of $2 million shows the capability of the larger districts, the expertise changing over a period of years and their ability to meet and achieve the basic direction for which the program was established. There was one other aspect; I'm afraid I've missed it. MR. HYLAND: The 86:14 formula. MR. SCHMIDT: Oh, the formula.

I had the opportuni­ ty early this spring to meet with the districts and discuss the formula, and suggested some changes. I thought I heard something from the Minister of Municipal Affairs, who seems to remember the formula quite well. We discussed the formula. In our discus­ sions and in recognizing some replies and submis­ sions to us as we travelled from district to district, we guaranteed the districts that the sharing formula would remain in place for 1979. Perhaps that's some­ thing we could review.

I'm sure most districts would be quite happy, at least in their submissions, to con­ tinue with that sharing arrangement. We tried some other balances: 75:25 and, when the going got tough, we looked at 50:50. In all due respect, we did have an opportunity. If there are to be changes in the formula, we'll certainly sit down with the irrigation districts and discuss it again. But we guaranteed that the 86:14 would stay in place for 1979. MR. HYLAND: Mr.

Chairman, in your remarks either on this vote or the preceding one, I believe you indi­ cated that the department was assisting, and will con­ tinue to assist, with research on what happened last winter with the break-up of the concrete lining, in looking for alternative forms of lining for these canals. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Chairman, at the time we had the opportunity to visit the irrigation districts, they pre­ sented us with some of the problems which faced them. Of course they dealt directly with areas of research.

At that time we asked them if they had considered ap­ proaching Farming for the Future in those areas of concern, and invited them to make those presentations. It's my understanding that the association collectively is now drawing together those areas of research that deal directly with irrigation, and certainly will be welcomed by the Farming for the Future program. As an aside, we were visiting southeast Asia; they have an extensive irrigation system, and South Korea has some extremely cold weather.

We have some infor­ mation coming back from people who are involved with irrigation, as to how they cope with frost and cement, because practically all their canals are ce­ mented. They promised to give us the engineering information they have, which we will pass down. I just mention that as a passing comment. MR. STEWART: Mr. Chairman, I was at a loss to know in what vote I would discuss with the minister a particular problem that I feel faces rural Alberta and agriculture. I considered it under research and decided that, with the latitude given during that vote, I would carry it through to irrigation.

I think the irrigation program and rehabilitation of the irrigation works are well understood by most of us, some of us not as well as others because of proximity to certain geographic areas. One thing that I feel people in agriculture are finding more and more problems with as time goes on is what I call spring flooding. That is caused mainly by our highway systems that temporarily flood thou­ sands of acres of land, to a greater degree in some areas of the province than in others, limiting the agricultural potential of that land to a great degree.

In other votes we find studies of wetland improvement for forestry. In Environment we find land reclamation, bringing it back to productivity, relative to areas that have been disturbed for gravel and other purposes. No place in these votes do I see any consideration being given to the farmers of this province who lose land to spring flooding that possibly is not natural. I think the Department of Agriculture probably has a role to play in recognizing that some consideration should be given to trying to correct this problem. I would be interested in the minister's viewpoint on this subject. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Chairman, we're halfway between research and irrigation. I would agree with the hon. member that drainage is indeed part of the responsibil­ ity of Agriculture, but from the other end. We're responsible for maintaining the quality of the soil, working in conjunction with the landowner himself. The problem that exists, regardless of responsibilities for the end result, in most cases entails — as I look through the make-up of the provincial government — Transportation, Municipal Affairs.

If you're talking about agricultural land, roadways fall more into the hands and the jurisdiction of local government than of the Department of Transportation, with numbered highways. Water management, of course, falls within the purview of my friend in Environment. Indeed other departments have an interest as well. To place a program under Farming for the Future research — and I'm sure it's the direction the member is looking — delves into the same problem mentioned with regard to all the areas of research required in transportation. I agree that some work has to be done.

I think a water management committee has been for­ med, and Agriculture, of course, will be represented because of our interest and responsibilities in safe­ guarding the land itself. I think it's a larger problem, if you want to place it in the area of research to be committed under Farming for the Future. I would suggest that it be an ongoing program, perhaps funded jointly by all areas of responsibility. I recognize the problem and understand its growth. Of course, part of that is irrigation's problem in regard to the transmission of water and flooding.

Salinity problems are not always tied just to areas of irrigation, so there is an overlap. Perhaps we should sit down and take a longer look at those areas that should be actual research and those areas that are tied into the total problem. Perhaps collectively we can come up with some answers that may save the flooding which is really not necessary. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to raise a question with the minister as an update with regard to the ECA report on the Oldman, and the implication of that report for other irrigation districts of southern Alberta.

My own feeling at this point is that whatever decisions are made with regard to the ECA report that

October 26, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 989 affect the Lethbridge Northern Irrigation District, other districts are going to be requesting the same treatment. In his review of not only that report but its implications for other areas, I wonder whether the minister has reached that kind of decision at this point? Or is it too early to make that decision public? I certainly can understand that the mechanics of the decision-making process can't be elaborated on, but has the first decision been made with regard to the implications of the report? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Chairman, as to the responsibili­ ties we in the Department of Agriculture have in irrigation and as the report affects that, no, the deci­ sion has not been made. Secondly, yes, it is too early at this time. We do recognize that whatever comes, the direction that is taken in this step will of course be part of an ongoing problem further down. That, perhaps, will be one of the key factors in making some decisions that have to be made. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions or comments with regard to this vote? Agreed to: 2 — Irrigation Rehabilitation and Expansion $11,210,000 MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Chairman, I move that the vote be reported. [Motion carried] MR. CHAIRMAN: We proceed now to Economic De­ velopment — we're holding that one. We go to Educa­ tion, then. Department of Education 1 — Alberta Heritage Learning Resources MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the minister have any open­ ing comments? MR. KING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the Alberta heritage learning resources project is quite well known to the people of the province and to Members of the Legislative Assembly, because substan­ tial parts of it have already been disseminated through the school system.

Since I reported at some length to the committee of the Legislature about five weeks ago, I won't repeat my comments about the project itself. However, I would like to make some brief comments about its financing. The first year of financing was '78-79. At that time it was presumed that it would be financed over two years. It has proven to be slower in its commencement, and therefore a little slower in reaching its termination. That is why, although it continues to be on budget and on schedule, it's going to be funded through a third year of operation rather than just two years.

So the vote today is for $639,000 to be paid out in the fiscal year 1980-81. As I have said, that is not additional money for the project. It's simply that we're paying out the same amount of money over three years rather than two. There's also a supplementary estimate, Mr. Chair­ man. Perhaps I could speak to both of them at the same time. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think we will be considering those supplementary estimates themselves. MR. KING: That's fine, if you would prefer that. When I spoke to the committee, Mr. Chairman, I was asked a few questions by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview.

I have the information and am able to provide it to him and to other interested members in written form this morning. But I thought I would excerpt some pieces of information for the benefit of all members of the House. To October 10 of this year, we had spent $3,992,458 on the project; $3,520,665 in Alberta. The next largest amount of money, $345,770, was spent in Ontario. Smaller sums of money were spent in British Colum­ bia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and a very small sum in Quebec. The hon. member had asked how many publishing firms in western Canada had been involved in the project.

I am pleased to advise that 51 publishers were involved in the four western provinces. From that number we exclude people involved exclusively in the business of typesetting, printing, or binding; we don't refer to them as publishers. The 51 publishers in western Canada benefited to the extent of $180,777.50. I'll provide this in written form to interested members of the Assembly; others, if they like, could receive copies from my office. [interjection] The hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs will get a copy for himself. The initial response to the project, Mr.

Chairman, has been very positive across the province. We're in­ clined to believe that the project will demonstrate itself to be very beneficial. The question was asked whether we were going to proceed at the present time with follow-on projects. That is not our intention, because while we have had an initial positive response and are obviously inclined to believe that the project will demonstrate itself as very beneficial, we also think we should have one more year of experience under our belts, the opportunity to study the impact in the class­ room, before we make a formal decision about any follow-on projects.

So while a number of them have been recommended to the department, and some appear to have considerable merit, it is not our intention to recommend those at the present time. I will conclude with those remarks, Mr. Chairman, unless there are questions from my colleagues. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions or com­ ments with regard to the amount to be voted for the heritage learning resources? MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to pose a question or two to the hon. minister.

With respect to the materials being made available to the classrooms, perhaps the hon. minister might elaborate on the kind of preparation put in place for teachers in the schools or instructors in other institutions where these materials are being provided, insofar as maxi­ mum utilization of the materials for the benefit of the students attending the schools.

Perhaps in his remarks he may deal with whether the preparation necessary to utilize these resources put in place through the Faculty of Education at the university has been incorporated into the course content and preparation of university students for the educational profession, rather than a

990 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1979 separate program entirely. And what kind of program is in place for teachers now in the field? MR. KING: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I would ask if there are other questions and then attempt to deal with them all at the same time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions or comments that members wish to make before the minis­ ter replies? DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, mine is not so much a question as a commendation of this whole program. I don't know how it relates between education and get­ ting in place into senior citizens' lodges within the province.

I must say that as I have participated in a committee with the last speaker — I can't remember her riding, I'm sorry; Edmonton Norwood — the Alberta Health Facilities Review Committee, I have gone into a number of senior citizens' lodges in the southern part of the province, and I realize how much appreciated these volumes are. I think it's also interesting to note that at least one volume is written in Ukrainian and one in French. The volumes are really of an extremely high calibre.

They are attractively presented, and I know they are very much sought after in some of these lodges, so much so that in one lodge they keep them under lock and key, which was a procedure we advised against. They were afraid they were going to disappear. I know that some of the people who have been involved in writing the books have taken two to three years out of their own writing lives, because they have given that high a degree of commitment to this herit­ age learning resources project.

In particular, I would commend James Gray, because I know that, in terms of his own research and writing load, it cost him heavily to be involved in this particular project. Mr. Chairman, it's not a question. It's very much a commendation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions or comments? If not, Mr. Minister. MR. KING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could deal in reverse order with the points raised. I appreciate the comments of the hon. Member for Calgary Millican and hope some of the administrators of the projects will make note of his remarks when perusing Hansard.

It's true that the western Canadian literature for youth project was originally intended and has been distri­ buted, as he suggests, to hospitals, universities, correc­ tional institutions, auxiliary hospitals, senior citizens' homes, and drop-in centres. I should have mentioned that we have actually come in under budget. The fact that we are coming in under budget allows us to do an extended run of Project No. 3, Alberta literature for senior students and adults.

Originally we had not intended to distribute it to the same institutions — the hospitals, nursing homes, and senior citizens' homes — but with the extended production we are able to. Hon. members will recall that I circulated a memo inviting their sugges­ tions as to the distribution of that project to those institutions in their constituencies. In addition to being able to use some of our budget for this extended production, we're able to use it for translation into Ukrainian and French of a few addi­ tional materials. So we'll have some more material, not just the two volumes.

We are also able to transcribe some of it onto tape for those who are blind or severely visually impaired, so some of the project will now be available for the use of those people. That we're able to do that pleases me very much, quite aside from the fact that it indicates careful management of the budget of the project. With respect to in-service training, part of the proj­ ect included the development and production of teacher resource materials.

They have been provided with printed material designed to introduce the project to them and make them familiar with the ways in which it could be used in the classroom. In addition to that, the consultants of the Department of Education conducted in-service preparation programs in each of the region­ al offices around the province for the supervisory staff of school divisions and, in some cases where the school division was small, for the teachers themselves. We have provided some in-service assistance to the local school boards, so they in turn could provide it to the teachers within their system.

The more general question raised is a contentious one and is under review at the present time. Historical­ ly it has been the position of the Department of Educa­ tion that, as professionals, teachers are responsible to keep themselves current with developments in their profession and touching on their profession. A con­ trary argument has been made by others, notably the Alberta Teachers' Association. This summer we agreed to a tripartite study upon which the Alberta School Trustees' Association, the Alberta Teachers' Associa­ tion, and the Department of Education would be repre­ sented.

That tripartite study is going to consider the general question of in-service preparation. I hope it will make a report to the three interested bodies late next spring. It will then be our responsibility as a government to consider whether we are going to adopt a new or modified position on in-service. In conclusion, we have provided as much, even a little more, in-service in conjunction with the distribu­ tion of this project as we have in the past in conjunc­ tion with the distribution of other curriculum ma­ terials.

Whether it is sufficient is perhaps subject to the recommendations of the report that we receive next spring. I don't believe it is wise at present to treat th