VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 24, 1982 NO. 28

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1641 SD - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: ~r. P.p~~~er, I rise for the purpose of proposing a motlon tnqt ~ know a+l members of the llouse on both sides would wish to be associated with and this is for the purpose of expressing sympathy to the hon. the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) on the passing of his brother,Dr. Randolph Young. Dr. Young was a dentist in Bay Roberts and he was well known in the area.

Unfortunately he has been sick for a long period of time and passed away in the early hours of this morning. So, Mr. Speaker, I move that an appropriate message of sympathy be sent to the Minister of Public Works and the family of Dr. Young. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House are sorry to hear of the sad passing of Dr. Young and we wish to join with the other side of the House in having an expression of sympathy go out from the House to the family and relatives of Dr. Young. * * * MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I really do not know if I can put this under the category of a point of order or not but I will try anyway. Today at our caucus- we have a 3 '-~ 6 s

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1641 so - 2 MR. NEARY: caucus meeting every day - and today at our caucus meeting one of the matters that carne up involved the decorum of the House. Now I want to make it clear before I talk about the things that I want to talk ~bout that it has nothing to do with the bantering back and forth across the House or speeches in the House, it has nothing to do with that sort of thing at all,or whether somebody is shouting or whether somebody is interrupting. That is not what I am talking about. But we are very concerned, Mr.

Speaker, about the way the atmosphere seems to be deteriorating outside of the House,especially over in the corridor on that side of the House,and outside of the Speaker's gallery,and sometimes even in the gallery where you have members going out talking to visitors. The other day, for instance, a member went out to talk to somebody in the Speaker's gallery and they were snickering and laughing while somebody was speaking in the House. It is awfully distracting. We have common rooms on both sides of the House, Mr. Speaker.

I would submit, especially to the newer members who probably do not understand, yesterday we had a member standing in the doorway shouting remarks from the doorway with a cigarette in his mouth as if he was in a tavern somewhere downtown. 3u6,

cTune 24, 1982 Tape No. 1642 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Now this sort of behaviour, ttr. Speaker, on the part of members is improper and I believe that we should stop it before he gets out of han~ and even behind the curtain. I saw my colleague the member for Terra Nova (Hr.

Lush) who was speaking in the House - ¥esterq~y I tpip~ it was, and there were so many conversations gotng on -not in t~e House, l ~Ill I ' 1 ' 1 ' ' ' ' ' ' • • 1 ' i , 1 ' ·, ' ., ~ not talking about woat P?PP~n~ in tpe .ffo~s~ b~cause we pap . . ' . •.; .. · ··. ' ,· ' ' con~~q~ that, anq Yo~r Honour ca~ enforGe tq~ rp~es, ,ppt 'whaf '. ·. . . . ' . . . ' . . .. . . I am talking about is what is happening out in the side corridors, especially on that side of the House. They have a common room .

If they want to have a smoke they can go in the common room and smoke, or if they want to have a cup of coffee or tea,or a snicker or a joke. But, Mr. Speaker, I would submit that it not be done behind the curtain or in the corridors on either side of the House, or even in the galleries. And I believe, it may sound frivilous, that one thing we must do, Mr . Speaker, is maintain the respect of this House.

I do not know if Your Honour has it within his power to clear the corridors and to place some restrictions on these matters that I am r~isinq,but we arc very serious about it because it is interrupting and distracting from the decorum of the House. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEARER (Russell) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Coming from anyone other than the hon. member it would be ludicrous. That is not a point of order. I notice the han. gentleman refers obviously to this side when he talks about the newer members because this is the only side that has any•newer•members. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 3487

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1642 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, I can advise the hon. members that the newer members on this side of the House are more conversant with the rules of parliamentary procedure than the hon. eight members on the other side for all of their years in the House. You know,that is not a point of order. And member9of this House can get up and if thev cannot be heard and they think the decorum is not appropriate they will rise on a point of order at that period of time. That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is a point of politics, and also it is a point of humour. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The Chair feels that really it is not a point of order. Maybe it is something that each caucus can talk about within the confines of its meetings. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). Yesterday at the end of Question Period in a reply to a question that I put to him on over-the-side sales,the minister indicated that if there was a fish plant in this Province that could process fish he would not be in favour of over-the-side sales.

Now I understand from a news release today- they can be either right or wrong,I suppose- but I understand from a news release today that the minister ha ·s ~h.;nged ' his mirid ori that litiniewhat <:ina that . h~ i~ now saying that the Province will no~ oppdse; if ~h~ fed~rai gbve:tnment says over-the-side sales are in order,then the Province will not oppose them. 3LF;R

June 24,1982 Tape No. 1643 ah-1 MR.'I'ULK: I would like to know, Mr. Speaker, if indeed that is correct,and if the minister has changed his mind and why has he changed it? MR .SPEAKER (Russell): MR.MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, there is no change of mind, there is change of position •• The media are also correct in what they are saying today.

The fact is that I said yesterday in the House 1 in answer to questions from the same hon. gentleman 1 that we would check and see if companies were able to buv or accomodate the fishermen on th e Avalon Peninsula by buyin<J additional fish. ~?ell after the employees of the distribution desk working all yesterday afternoon and all evening, in fact all night, checking with all the companies throughout the Province, they found that no company was willing to put transportation on,like,for example 1 trucks and supply ice and come in and buy the fish from the Avalon Peninsula.

A few companies indicated they were interested in getting additional fish,but they had no means of transportation and were not interested in buying the fish 1 especially if it was of a small size. So the bottom line is we found nobody in the Fish Trades Association, we have been in contact with the Fish Trades Association and I am rather annoyed,to say the least!with the somewhat lack of co-operation from the Fish Trades Association because I hear reports of some plants that are operating only a few hours a week yet the companies tell us that they do not want to buy any additional fish from the Avalon Peninsula.

So because of that our position now is that we have changed our position, Now that the facts have been gathered and because there is fish available which we view now as surplus to the needs of the fish companies and plants in the Province 1I will use the term that we 34fiq

June 24,1982 Tape No. 1643 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: have opened the doors because this cod trap season is too important to the Newfoundland fishermen. Last year they had almost a disasterous year with no fish to catch,and.this year the catch is good and they have to dump it.

Because it is so important to the fishermen and because the season is relatively short, the cod trap season , we have now opened the doors ; we are not going to oppose companies from any part of Canada who want to move in and truck fish across the Province and out of the Province, buy it from fishermen whether it be on the Avalon Peninsula or anywhere else d._n the Province where indeed it is surplus. And., number two, I have now wired Mr.

LeBlanc,the federal minister,with a copy going to the Fishermen'sunion to indicate that because we are of the opinion there is a surplus , a surplus to the needs of the inshore plants,and because the Fish Trades Association and because the Independent nrocessors Association, these two groups which represent almost all the companies in the Province, because they indicate to us that they cannot accommodate the fishermen, that we will nnt onnose, we will not op~n~n Rnv effort by the Fishermen's Union - I understand the~' have applied for a license, for Mr.

LeBlanc to issue a license to a factory or a freezer ship in the same way as he has issued a license to an operation ongoing on the Great Northern Peninsula. lui we see it, fishermeh in netty Harbour, Bay Bulls, Flatrock or Torbay are just as good fishermen and Canadian citizens as those on the· Great Northern Peninsula. He has arranged for a ship right now to be in the Port Saunders area buying fish from fishermen directly because the rlants could not 3&7fl

... June 24, 1982 Tape 1644 PK - l MR. MOHGAN: uccornmodate ~he fishermen. So because it is done there, we feel that he should now do it immediately here on the Eastern part of the Province to prevent any further dumping of fish by the fishermen. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): u supplementary. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The hon. member for Fogo, MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I find it rather strange that the minister, who has in the past in this Province threatened to take away the processing licences of companies if they do not obey his wishes. has suddenly bowed to the wishes of those companies. Now he is right.

J un<lerst13nd that from St. Anthony to Bonavista the plants are operating at about 50 per cent capacity. The truth of the matter is that they refuse to take small fish; they want big fish, that the truth. And the question for the minister is since he controls the licences,and since he therefore controls the processing jobs that goes with that fish being processed in Newfoundland .. why has he not told the companies that they must,if they are going to hold on to their licences, why has he not told the companies that they must buy this fish? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the answer is very simple that if , for example, we put a regulation in place this morning or tomorrow morning telling those companies they must buy what they term poor quality fish, a small sized fish, and if they were forced to buy it by means of regulation they would automatically be back to us within a matter of weeks saying;we are losing money on that fish, we cann9t get any kind of an economic return, it is producing poor quality and it is not just feasible for us 3 4 7 1

June 24, 1982 Tape 1644 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: to take and buy that fish and process it; therefore will you cover our losses? That is what the Fish Trades would do and the companies would do. I am convinced of that. And as I said earlier 1there is somewhat of a lack of co-operation, there seems to be in many cases not too much concern by some of those companies for the fishermen and their problems. And if they do not want to buy from the fishermen in this Province and keep that supply of fish in their own plants for processing ,we are saying, let us open the doors, let us have free enterprise go all the way.

Let us bring in the outside companies intn Newfoundland, comp~n .i.es from Nova Scotia who want to buy the fish from fishermen and, if necessary, and it is entirely up to the federal minister, if he wants to approve a freezer ship to be anchored in the Port of St. John's or somewhere else along the Avalon Peninsula,the same as he has now done for the Great Northern Peninsula - I did not hear any sere~ from the Fish Trades Association protesting a freezer ship , a Fortuguese freezer ship now in Port Saunders buying directly from fishermen. The reason being - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MORGAN: - the companies did not want to buy the fish up there from the fishermen, so they could not very well complain;if they do not want to buy from the fishermen and··somebody else wants to buy it let them buy from the fishermen. 3it7?

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1645 MJ - 1 MH. ,J • MORGAN: As I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, we cannot afford-and other members of the House who represent fishing districts will agree that we cannot afford-to have fishermen,,·Tho last year had a disastrous year, this year-now suddenly the catch is good- to huve these fisherman continue to dump their fish at a time that is so important to them. smm HON. ~U::~lBP.RS : Hear, hear! ~m. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Morgan) ~nd lhc fedcrul Minister nf Fishories(Mr. R. T~Blanc) are just about on side when it comes to their idea of when we should have over -the-side sales. And I think it is a last ditch effort by both of them. But the minister, regardless of whether he likes it or not, has bowed to the companies, He has said, • Alright, let us have open season, free enterprise throughout the Province.• And I agree that the fisherman have to sell their fish, there can be no argument about that. But in the meantime we do not want to lose the jobs that are in the proccssinq sector of the industry.

So my question to the minister is, is this now policy of the governmeJ:t? Is this going to be a trend that we will allow over~the-side sales or we will allow everybody to come into the Province to buy fish for the rest of this season, for the next year and so on? Or is the minister going to allow the companies in this Province to tell him -when he finances a great many of them- is he going to allow the companies in this Province to tell him when they will take fish and when they will not? Or does he know what he is doinq? It is ap~arcnt that hA foes not. 31+ 7 1

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1645 MJ - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I .i.Lready indicated that the companies have advised us, the Ne\vfoundlan<l Government - I cannot very well stand in the House of Assembly or outside and say that the companies are lying to me. I cannot say that because we have checked with every single company across the Province, every buyer of fish,and they tell us they are not willing, not interested and do not w<'mt to buy fish on the Avalon Peninsula. So 1.-1e have already concluded that they have a surplus of fish now.

They have fish in their own plants,thev do not want to cmme and buy additional fish. So 1.-1hat I would like to do, !'r. Speaker, is read and table this telex~o make sure our policy is clear, the telex sent to Mr. LeBlanc today_ I will quote part of the telex to make sure it is understood.

"Under such circumst<J.ncL~~,;, whill' there is a surplus to the needs of the onshore processing plants in the Province, I cannot oppose your department grantinq an over-the-side sale licence to the "'ishermen' s Union similar to thP licence you already granted earlier this season l:o the union for an over-the-side sale on the Northwest coast of the Province." MR. S. NEARY: Now that is a reversal, that is a change of policy. MR. MORGAN: And what vle are saying, Mr. Speaker, j s as long as it is surplus to the needs of the onshore processing plants.

And if the companies are lying to me, well they have to bear the consequences. T am takinq tbeir wnnl - MR. NEARY: :·'hat a flip flop. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has Droblems over in Port aux Basques in the fishing industry as well, so please be serious now. If the companies, and I understand :1/,7 il

June 24, 19 82 Tape No. 1645 MJ - 3 MR. J. MORGAN: from what I can gather the companies have already viciously attacked me for \vhat I am doing for the fisherman, I am willing to take that because I think what W< ' .1n:> doinq is riqht. 'T'ho companj0.s have not co-operated in trying to help the fis~erm~n. 347S

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1646 II3-l MR. MORGAN: They tell me the plants are filled with fish. ~hey tell m~ they have lots of fish, they do not want any more fish. I am not going to call them liars as companies. I am takinq their word they are telling me the truth. So if they are full of fish that is surplus to the needs of the plants in the Province, therefore there is no reason why the fishermen should not be allowed to sell their fish on the Avalon Peninsula to a foreign boat in the same way as fishermen are now selling - MR. NEARY: The minister is giving them the-runaround. MR. !~ORGAN: -Mr.

Speaker, please~ - selling fish in the same way as the fishermen are now selling,and have been selling for almost two months,on the Great Northern Peninsula -well not two months, it is now about three weeks -to a foreign Portuguese freezer ship anchored just in the harbour and fishermen selling directly to that freezer ship. If Mr. LeBlanc can do it for the people of Port au Choix and the St. Barbe coast area,there is no reason why he cannot do it for the fishermen on the Avalon Peninsula. That is what we are saying right now. MR. NEARY: You told us yesterday you would not listen to him. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, what I said in the House yesterday I am saying right now, the same thing. I am saying now, Mr. Speaker, the same as yesterday. If the companies all are filled - MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: A point of order. The hon. minister is trying to respond to a question. I think the decorum of the House,as the hon. Leader of the Opposition 347R

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1646 IB-2 MR. MARSHALL: (Dr. Neary) l'Tas talking about a few minutes ago 1 dictates for him to remain silent while the minister has an opportunity to answer the question. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Opposition. MR. NF.l\RY: The hon. Leader of the My response to that point of order is this, Mr. Speaker, that a minister responding to a question is supposed to be brief, not controversial, and non-political. The hon. gentleman is playing little political games like he is used to playing, learning probably from the Government House Leader. And I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, that the rule of relevancy be enforced and that the hon. gentleman be asked to be brief in his answers. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Hon. members to my right and to my left are aware that any member when speaking does have the right to be heard in silence. I would ask them to abide by that rule. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I was attempting to answer the question in a sincere way 1,ecause the question was asked in a sincere way on the problems of fishermen. !tis important we ~11 be concerned with the problems of the fishermen, the most important industry we have in this Province.

I say again that our position today is the same as yesterday. We said in the House yesterday that if there is surplus to the needs of the processing plants in the Province we will not be opposed to any freezer ship, foreign ship buying directly from the fishermen. We are convinced today, as a result of checking with all the companies,that there is a surplus of fish being caught by the fishermen in the Province, a surplus to the needs of the onshore processing plants in this Province. And because of that we cannot oppose the arrangement of an over-the-side sale 3477

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1646 IB -3 MR . MORGAN: to accommodate fishermen at a time when the season is so important to them, the cod trap fi shin g season . I will add, r~ . Speaker, for the benefit of the hon. gentleman who asked the question , I said almost a total lack of co -o peration. We did get some co -operation from a fe w companies . Por example, National Sea in St. John's here, St. John 's South, on the South side of the harbour, they agreed to take approximately jb7R

.. Jun e 24 , 1 982 Tape 1647 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: 100,000 pounds n·'- additional fish a day from the Avalon Peninsula by means of taking on addi tirmal plant workers. That is co- operation. They arranged i:hat. The only other co-operation we had was from two small companies out in Trinity Bay, One was E.J, Gre~~e ~t~it~d, tn W~nte~t~n, Trinity Bay. They agreed to take 20,qOR po~nds a qay 1 ~y good friend from Trinit y - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rideout) is aware of the company. They arranged to take 20,000 pounds extra a day from these fishermen. .

And George Dawe and Son, out in the same area, has agreed to take 25,000 to 30,000 pounds a day extra as well. But the Fish Trades Association, I am under the wrath of the Fish Trades Association. A telegram camein to me this morning - I would not dare table it in the House. The Fish Trades Association are just vicious over this kind of effort on the part of the Newfoundland Government and myself to make sure the fishermen are being assisted.

And all we ~re doing is sayinq, "You say you cannot handle the fish, you sa y you are not going to co-operate and he~p the fishermen, well we are taking some action." And I am going to be subject to some criticism over the next number of davs, I am quite aware of that, from some of those companies which are somewhat annoyed over the decision we have made. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. member for Fogo. MR. NEARY: Talk to your buddies you gave the crab licence to and make them take some P-xtra fish. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister seems to be shifting position aD _ the time.

A few minutes ago in his opening answer :1e said that there was processing capacity in the Province, there is. Now he is saying that he is determined that there is a surplus. He does not want to call the fish companies liars. But he goes on record as wiring the federal minister - ~~7~

June 24, 1982 MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 1647 NM-2 On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. President This is the question period. It is a time for members to ask questions. Members of the Opposition are perfectly entitled, of course, to ask questions but as much as we might be treated and elucidated and uplifted by speeches by the hon. member, this is not the time and place to do it. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER : MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition . We are not operating under martial law in this House, Mr. Speaker.

The same rules apply to tho.t side of the Ilouse that apply 'to this side o[ the !louse. ln responding to a point of order a few moments ago I talked about brevity, brief answers to questions. And the hon. gentleman just ranted and raved and talked on for about another four or five minutes playing little political games. And I think my hon. friend is entitled to a fair

preamble, Mr. Speaker, and anybody who watches the proceedings of the House of Commons will see that _ in the Parliament of Canad<:~ they have much lon(Jcr prcumbles than we have in this House. MR. SIMMS : Not on supplementaries . MR. NEARY: And I would submit that my hon. colleague is perfectly in order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sure all hon. members are aware that both the question and the answer should be brief, and I will again request them to try to adhere to the rule, all members on both sides of the House. MR. TULK: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. As I was saying the minister is just trying to cover up his own 34Rn

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1648 so - 1 MR. 'l'llLK: inadequacies by attacking the federal minister. Now let me tell him that Twillingate has a supply problem, Little Harbour East is closed. But let me ask him a more important question than that perhaps, Mr. Speaker. Would he consider, if tb~ fish companies would agree to take the surplus fish, and it they ~ay _it ~s too costly qnq the ~uality i~ +o~, would he agree perhaps to subsidize some of the trucking costs of fish companies in this Province in order to see that our fishermen sell their catch and in order to see that the processing jobs are available?

Would he consider that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman and his colleague no longer than a few minutes ago were criticizing us for giving the companies money - AN HON. MEMBER: Right on. MR. MORGAN: - and wanting us to be more dictatorjal in dealing with the companies and refuse to give them any subsidies or assistance. Now they are asking for additional subsidies. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to say and I want to say it sincerely, the fishermen, according to the calls - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: - at my home last evening and last niqht and early this morning - my phone is listed everybody knows my phone is listed, they can get hold of me- 1nd according to the phone calls from fishermen who are having a very serious time , having three or four 34A1

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1648 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: totally frustrated, the companies do not want to help them out, the companies say they have lots of fish, they are not going to buy any more. And I am saying now there is no obstacl8 in the path of the Federal Minister of Fisheries doing the same thing for the fishermen on the Avalon Peninsula as he has already done on the Great Northern Peninsula. Let the foreign boat come in and buy fish from fishermen. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): MR. WARREN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOHE HON . HE~il3ERS : MR.

SPEAKE~: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Speaker, I have a question - Oh, oh. Order, please! Oh, oh. Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. House). Could the minister advise the hon. House how many cases of salmonella poisoning have been reported to his office as of today? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I think there were about twenty-two cases on the 17th of this month. There were twenty-two cases of sickness down at a particular lodge - Glenbrook -and the=e have been twelve cases of salmonella isolated.

That is the last information I have on that. MR. WARREN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Supplementary, the hon. member The minister is saying that there were twelve cases reported from the Glenbrook Lodge here in St. John's. A supplementary question to the minister, What steps has his department taken to investigate the cause or the causes of the outbreak at the Glenbrook Lodge? 34R?

.! June 24, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Health. MR. HOUSE: Tape 1649 PK - 1 The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, as J just said the sickness occurred between the lOth. and the 17th. On the 17th. our department was called in on medical ~dvice by d medical doctor in the institution, I believe Dr. Ad~ms called in the department. T.he department has been work;i.;n.g o;n. it ever since. It is still under investigation. They h~ve not isolated the cause to their own satisfaction as yet, but it is still being worked on and investigated. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, ~nether supplementary. Last night about two o'clock a member of the staff was taken to the Health Sciences Centre with the symptoms of the same poisoning. Could the minister advise if his department has been contacted by the staff at the Gl~ Lodge concerning tneir health and safety at that lodge? MR. SPEAKER: Health. MR, HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, it was not twenty-two patients who were affected, I believe there were seven st~ff members and fifteen ~~tie;n.ts. Yes,they have been contacted obviously and as r said it is being investigated and everything - MR. NEARY: What is the cause? MR.

HOUSE: Balmonella. MR. NEARY: What caused it? MR. HOUSE: Pardo;n? MR, NEARY: Is it the w~ter? 3 4 B .1

June 24, 1982 Tape 1649 PK - 2 MR. HOUSE: They are investigating it. Most of these cases lead mainly to poultry, but they have not isolated it as yet. But that is the biggest threat ih that particular thing, poultry. But as I said the whole thing is still under investigation and when it is found it will be reported. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the minister has left us with the impression that they are still trying to find the cause of that. I want to ask the minister a point-blank question now.

Are the patients and the staff going to be left at Glenbrook Lodge until they find out what is the cause? MR. SPEAKER: Health. MR. HOUSE: being made on this. ~y The han. Minister of There are medical judgements staff in the Division of Inspections, Dr, Severs office is in constant touch with the division. I do not think there is any thought yet of evacuating anybody or taking them out, but certainly if it is necessary it will be done. I know they are doing everything that can be done.

And I would suggest they have pretty well isolated the problem, but I do not think they are going to make any final statement on it until,of course,they are very sure. 3484

June 24,1982 Tape No. 1650 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Terra Nova. MR.LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question fp+ tne Minister qf ~apour and Manpower (Mr.Dinnl. I wonder if the minister can indicate to the House how many groups within the public service have not negotiated a contract for 1982? I am thinking of some of the major groups, the nurses, the teachers. Realizing that some of these groups have two year agreements and this sort of thing;! am wondering how many of these large groups have not yet negotiated their collective bargaining agreement for 1982? MR.SPEAKER: and Manpower.

MR.DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to give an exact number at this point in time. I reviewed it only yesterday. Obviously I can get the exact number for the hon. gentleman and the number of people involved but there are several major ones, General Service,Maintenance and Operation Staff, Teachers,Waterford Hospital, the Workers' Compensation. There are some large and some small qroups,but I can get the exact number for the hon. gentleman and get back to him and so on. MR.LUSH: A supplementary. MR .SPEAKER: a supplementary.

MR.LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova, I just wonder if the hon. minister can give hon. members any indication of any ongoing negotiations now. I am sure he might not be aware of all the ones that are not settled,but he must be aware of ones that are ongoing now,and what is the status of the negotiations in these that are ongoing? 34BS

June 24,1982 HR.CHAIRMAN (Russell): and Manpower. Tape No. 1650 ah-2 The hon. Minister of Labour MR.DINN: Mr. Speaker, policemen and firemen, the police are into arbitration right now. General service, there is a conciliation board set up in the case of the general service dispute. Some of the other sets of negotiations are waiting the outcome,of course,of that conciliation board, one would be probably the maintenance and operations. The warders group are going to conciliation, that is the warders in the penitentiaries. Waterford Hospital support staff are currently into negotiations.

Teachers are in negotiations and they have a conciliation officer appointed. Obviously they will go through that conciliation process,and then possibly request a board or conclude negotiations without the assistance of the board,so these are the major ones that current. Police and firemen have arbitration; warders do not have arbitration, they have conciliation; general service has conciliation, MOS , Workers Compensation and people like that will be awaiting the outcome of the general service one which generally sets the rates for government and so on.

So these are the several important ones that are ongoing now. And , of course, the teachers are into negotiation and have a conciliation 34AR

1.. June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1651 IB-1 MR. LJI.NN: ofricer appointed. That was done through the Labour Relations Board 1not the minister. That is the only one that is outside the ambit of the minister appointing conciliation officers. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: ~r. Spea~er, I wonder if the minister can elaborate a little fprther on the status of negotiations with teachers because I understand that everything is not going well in these negotiations. If they have not reached an impasse, they have come pretty close to it.

Supplementary to that, the minister has indicated there are a large number of public servants according to the list that he has given '-'~1o have not yet reached a settlement, they have not yet been able to negotiate a settlement with the government.

In view of the large number of public servants that have not yet negotiated a settlement, in view of the fact that the government have announced that they are putting freezes on increases to senior civil servants and the like, I am wondering if the government has reached any policy with respect to an increase they are going to be giving to all their workers in terms of percentage, whether they have a ceiling of 8 per cent, 10 per cent 1 or whether they have established a policy with respect to the increase they expect to give all of their workers and whether they have announced that policy or whether they have any policy restricting increases or with a ceiling of a percentage amount?

MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. The i1on. Minister of Labour 34R7

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1651 IB-2 MR . DINN: Mr . Speaker, with respect to negotiations, the hon. member knows, of course, that there is a certain timing process that is set into play in all negotiations and that takes place generally when there is a re qu est for a board. At that point in time the timing is set in place. So as to how long negotiations go on,or whether there is or is not a co llective agreement , the timing is set in place,so any side,e ither the employer 's side or the employees ' side,can set that timing in place by taking a specific action .

With respect to the teachers, the teachers have been negotiating for a short period of time up to this point in time . Last week or a week and a half ago they requested a conciliation officer through the Labour Relations Board. That will take a specific period of time and then, of course, the process is set into play when conciliation boards are requested. Now with respect to the public service, the general service is into the conciliation board process now.

So t.hey have a board ap pointed, Lh c boil rcl wj 11 hcl. tr Lh c c..tS l' i'lnd then they will report,and the timing is set into play right after that report comes in, the fourteen days, on receipt of the report, acceptance or rejection of the report and so on . But the timing is set into play . 3t.8A

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1652 MJ - 1 MR. J. DINN: With respect to police and firemen, that prodess is set into play,and the timing of that process is basically at a point where a conclusion cannot be reached by both sides , they go into arbitration. The police are now in~o arbit~qtion ond when the arbitration board decides 1 then that ends that process. I mean, there is no negotiation after that. Now, with respect to the Waterford Hospital, they are into negotiations now . They have requested a board - or no, I do not believe they have. The Waterford Hospital are just into conciliation riqht now.

The warders have requested a board. So, there is arbitration in the police case, there is arbitrration in the firefighters, and a conciliation board in the case of the warders. The General Service have a conciliation board, and that timing will be set in place when the board reports back. MOS generally will await the outcome, they do not have to, but they generally will await the outcome of the General Service conciliation board and so on. The teachers have a conciliation officer. 'rhcrc is no timing in nlacc now for the teachers until a board is activated.

And their contract does not run out, I believe until August 31st. So , just about all of the negotiations are going along the normal process and any time that normal process is not satisfactory to either party, then to set timing in place as to what action you may or may not want to take , that timing is set in place when the point at which a conciliation board is requested is done. In the case of police and firemen, it is arbit~ation;in the case of the rest it is conciliation. MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): mmeber for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr.

Speaker, I am glad to know that 3&flq

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1652 MJ - 2 MR. T. LUSH : the government h.Jve not then, according to the response from the minister, established any ceiling, any percentage ceiling or nnv other kind of ceiling with respect to wa•:re increases for workers in the 3t.Qn

June 24, 1982 Tape 1653 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: public ~ervice. My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is again related to the teachers, In view of the fact that they have asked for the conciliation procedure, I am just \.,ondering if the minister is in a position to indicate what might have been the hang-up, having to go to the conciliation procedure, whether it was related to salary, or whether it was related to MR. HISCOCK: Labrador benefits. MR. LUSH: - other working conditions?

Because, as the minister is aware, the teachers in particular always present a rather large package and I am just wondering what might have been the hang-up with respect to having to go to conciliation procedure, whether it was salary or other working conditions. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minis~er of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: No, Mr. Speaker, that is one of the things that generally happens when two parties get together, whether it is in the private or public sector.

OUr conciliation officers have a pretty fair reputation for concluding positive negotiations so that you do not have strikes or lockouts. And last year, just to indicate what the record is looking like, last year we had something like 40,000 man-days lost, which is one of the best records in Canada for the number of sets of negotiations that we concluded last year. So they have a pretty fair record and many groups just request the assistance of our conciliation people. We have conciliation,for example, in the construction trades. There are somethinq like twelve or thirteen trades.

They all have the assistance of a conciliation officer. The always request that . you know,especially when there are a number of items that are contentious on both sides. As to what these contentious items are, you know 1 I am certainly not going to discuss that here in the House of Assembly. \·Jhether there are 50 or 3 ~ 9 'l

June 24, 1982 Tape 1653 N.M -2 l-1R. DINN: 100 or 80' generally, that is what we start out with and the conciliation officer attempts to get the parti.es together and pare that dcll-m to a reasonable number, at which point in time,if there is still a bit of an impasse,then they request the appointment of a board. And,of course, in some cases the minister appoin·ts a point. Last year I believe we had a total of six boards. At this point in time this year I believe the total is four public and one pri.vate sector conciliation board appointed. So it is just a process that is set in place. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The time for Question Period has expired. MR. MARSHALL: Concurrence Motion. MR. SPEAKER: Services Committee. OR.DERS OF THE DAY: Order 3, Social Services Order 3, Concurrence Motion, Social The hon. member for St. John's North. 3t.q?

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1654 IB-1 MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the Social Services Committee again this year had a very successful series of hearings. Six headings were referred to it and a number of topics were discussed. I will just, for the purpose of beginning the debate, very quickly go over the topics tha_t were discussed in each heading so qS to fefre~p ~e~ers' mtr~s if they wish to discuss t~ese topics fqrthei• Tp~se ql.l had exhaust:j.ve q:j.scussion in Committee but, of course, everyone was not there and they might like to go over them again.

In Health, dental programmes carne in for a considerable amount of discussion,as did mental health, tuberculosis, the senior citizens' drug subsidy, hospital admissions, Medicare and the abuse of it or possible abuse of it, doctors' fee for service as opposed to salary and which is better,and the ambulance service. There Nere many other to:pics as well but these were the main ones that were discussed. In Culture, Recreation and Youth, the Amateur Sports Exchange Programmes, the Aquarena, the Norma and Gladys, hunting licences, wildlife management and the Exploits area for the 1984 Summer games, were discussed.

In the Department of Environment: tourism, the problem with car wrecks, industrial development, the Environmental Assessment Act, acid rain and budworrn spraying. In the Department of Justice: a very general discussion on prosecutions, law enforcement generally, the RCMP contract as opposed to the area about to be policed by the local police, jury selection,especially the problem with not enough native people being chosen for jury duty, liquor licencing, the electoral office, the problem 3491

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1654 IB-2 MR. CARTER: of sentencing gen eral ly , fire fighting, consumer protection and a number of other topics. In the Department of Education: the pro blem with financing education , Grade XII , literacy, vocational school, operating and capital financing were discussed . In the Department of Social Services: social assistance, the numbers of single able -bodied and who qualifies for assistance and who does not, separated families , the rental paid by the Department of Social Services, a number of work activity programmes were discussed and how success ful they were, 3L.q4

.June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1655 SD - l MR. CARTER: the cost of living, generally, ~nd Lhc problems ~ssoci~tcd with foster children - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER \ Aylward ) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: There is a loudspeaker or radio or somethfng on O\ltSide thE! flOjl~j;! 1 l Gan \'t'H·qly near t~e ~9n. ~e~tle~~r. I wopqer if Your Honour co414 s~n4 . . ' . .· .. . : . . . . '·.; a page out and ask them to either close the door, turn off the radio or loudspeaker or whatever it is? MR. SPEAKER: I will have that checked. MR. NEARY: It sounds like it is coming from over there. It may be upstairs. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CARTER: I do hear something, Mr. Speaker, but it is not bothering me. I do not know if it is bothering the other members. MR. NEARY: I cannot hear the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: I should speak more closely to the microphone. Is this better? The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) did promise to furnish the policy manual used by his department for his officials to the Opposition and to other interested backbenchers or members generally and this seemed to meet with the general satisfaction of the committee.

Now, these were the general headings that were discussed and, of course, in all of the discussions I myself felt that there was an undercurrent of concern regarding the shape of the economic pie that the provincial government uses. If you look at the Budget book you will see how it is divided. The amount omr Health,Education and Welfare, which are the three main branches of Social Services, consume something over 60 per 34qs

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1655 so - 2 MR . CARTER: cent of the amount of available money each year, ~hereas the amount that is spent on resources is almost miniscule by comparison . ~nd I think this is a concern to many people . They would rather it, perhaps not the other way around because obviously Social Services is very important, but they would hope that the amount of money being spent on resource departments could be increased .

Of course, the problem is that the private sector is unable to invest as much money as perhaps it should in the resources of the nation because the federal government is soaking up so much of tHe individuals money in the form of taxes , and at the same time they are soaking up a great deal of the money that is available in the capital markets . And Mr . MacEach en, of course, is about to bring down a new Budget . !. : 3L9R

June 24, 1982 Tape 1656 PK - 1 MR, CAR,TER: and if he ~!ants to do some good and perhaps revise the slagging economy,the first thing he should do is try to reduce taxes a little bit. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: It should not be a surprise to anyone that what is now happening economically all across Canada is the natural result of misguided government policies. Hhen I say "misguided government pol~cies", tam referring to the federal government.

Becapse the amount of money that the provincial government takes from the individual is miniscule compared with the amount of money that the federal government takes. If I had more time, or if J get another ten minute slot 1I will gladly argue that point with the hen. gentleman. A lot of the federal taxes are, of course, hidden, they are taken off at another level not directly by MR. HISCOCK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): A point of order,the hon. member for Ea~le River. MR.

HISCOCK: With regard to bringing in the estimates of Social Cervices, I fail to see hO\"J bringing down a new federal budget, what the budget has to do with these estimates being brought in on the floor of the House, particularly when in education, and social services, and welfare, some 50 per cent or 60 per cent comes from the federal government. And I am asking the question on a point of order• Is it that the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is saying that the federal government should cut back on taxes and cut back on these services? MR. SPEAKER: St. John's North. MR.

CARTER: The hen. member for Now, Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, I will gladly defend ' the relevance of what 3!.97

June 24, 1982 Tape 1656 PK - 2 MR. CARTER: I am trying to say. The whole exercise of the budget, the whole exercise of the estimates was to pass the estimates as they were presented to this House, and they were presented to this House and to the various Committees in the shape of a pie, if you like, a certain proportion goes to each department. And I was deploring the fact the pie was the shape it was; I was rather hoping that more money would be able to be found for certain departments.

And from that I was pointing out that the money needs to be found for these departments because the federal government is soaking up so much money in the private sector. And I think it is perfectly relevant and it is certainly not as far-fetched as most of the discussion'that takes place in this House1 unfortunately. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, as all members are aware during the Budget debate, sometimes - in the Estimate Committees debate, the debate is rather wide ranging. So I rule that there is no point of order. MR. CARTER: 1'hank you, Mr. Spnakc:r, MR. SREAKER: The hon. member for St.

John's North. MR. CAR1'ElR: So if the federal government wants to do something, and it is mostly in the federal government's hands,then they should reduce taxes and they can probably do that by spending the money that they get less foolishly. F.xample after exanip1e cari be gi veh of the foolish way they spend rodney. 34qA

June 24, 1982, Tape 1657, Page l -- apb MR. CARTER: But to get back to the discussion of our provincial estimates, it was a very successful exercise. This is the fourth year that I have been associated with the Social Services Estimates Committee. The format that we have used, while varying slightly perhaps from the formats of the other Committees, still is generally the same. Informality seems to have been the key word. Discussion is wide-ranging, frank and, I must say, free from a deal of the acrimony that seems to take place in this House of Assembly. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that the Committee system is the best thing since sliced bread and I highly recommend the system generally. I must say I enjoyed the exercise myself immensely, and I think that everyone found it very worth-while. thank you. I MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Order, please! Before recognizing the next speaker I would like to rule on a point of order raised yesterday by the hen. the Minister of Labour and Manpower(Mr. Dinn) about certain words which were supposedly attributed to the hen. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk).

On checking Hansard I see that the hen. member for Fogo did not say these worqs, or they are not listed in Hansard, so I rule there is no point of order. The hen. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say that I have the same words of commendation for the Committee system as does the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). 34gq

June 24, 1982, Tape 1657, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: I do not object to the Committee system, I never did until this year. Of course, I can understand why the member would be so pleased about it and what his ucfinition of success is. As long as the government have the large numbers in the Committee, and set up in such a way where we can only have one or two members there, then I can see why the member for St. John's North(Mr. Carter) would like that kind of setup.

As I have said before, I have no objection to the Committee system provided that the Opposition is of the nature that they have the numbers to be able to go to these Committee meetings. And the government was not all that favourable to many of our suggestions. Number one, we thought that the Committee system would be unworkable with just a small Opposition. With three Committees working, and two people on each Committee just leaving two people free, we asked that they have one Committee meeting, one Committee meeting, which would give us a little more flexibility.

But the government would not agree to that, they carried on, most of the time, two meetings simultaneously. And with members having other commitments out of town, the other commitments that one has as a result of being a member, sometimes it was practically impossible for any more than one to attend the meetings. And this certainly did not, with meetings going on just about 3linn

June 24,1982 Tape No. 1658 ah-1 MR.LUSH: every other day,and simultaneous meetings, it did not give the member a lot of time to prepare. So I can see why the member for St.John's Norh (Mr.Carter) would be so high in his praise for these committee meetings. But, Mr. Speaker, again I do not object to the principle of committee meeti~gs. + would +ike to • •• j ' .. ' ' • • ' hope that the government would be a little more flexible in terms of spacing .out the meetings to give_more flexibility and give members the opportunity to attend ct few more of these mectinqs and give a little more time for preparation. But,Mr.

Speaker, I have some concerns today that I want to raise in · education. It is unfortunate that the minister is not her~ but when these debates are carried on and one has to raise the concerns that one has, I would hope that there is somebody here, some hon. minister who can address the concerns, the very large concerns that I have in the field of education,particularly with respect to the new high school programme.

Several times during the committee meetings and during this session I have tried to qet some answers from the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) re the capital expenditures for the high school programme and tried to find out just exactly how these monies are going to be allocated and how much school boards can expect to get over the next couple of years.

Bon. members will recall that in last year's Budget,the 1981 Budget, the government allocated $20.3 million to provide facilities for the re-organized high school programme, $20.3 million, and in this Budget this year there is $47 million allocated and I have been trying from time to time to get from the minister just exactly how much of this money will be spent on the new high ~Siii

June 24,1982 Tape No . 1658 a.h-2 MR .LUSH : school programme th~s year . And, Mr. Speaker, my purpose for doing that is that this $20.3 million , the money that was allocated last year ,i s spread over a three year period and I wanted to find out exactly how the governm ent arrived at this figure of $20.3 nillion. I understand that the government set up a commi ttee to look into the facilities that would be required as a result of the new high school programme .

I understand that in the beginninq that committee did not do what it was suppose to do,or for some reason or other it wa s aborted,3nd then the government realized it and got into a panic situation , they got into - MR .TULK : L~ke they always do . ::~sn ;

June 24, 1982 Tape 1659 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: a real panic situation,realizing that the high school programme was now a fait accompli, and that something had to be done in terms of trying to ascertain just what the cost would be, what the extra cost would be to provide those facilities that would be needed as a result of the Grade XII, or the new reorganized high school programme. So when this Committee did not have its work done,it is my understanding that the department set up a one-man committee to go around the Province and try to ascertain what the needs would be with respect to facilities.

This man was a competent man, there is no question about that, he was a competent man, but the thing was he did not have any time. MR. TULK: What did you say happened to the committee? MR. LUSH: The committee just was aborted for some reason or other. I do not know what happened. They did not do their work so then they had to, in their panic situation, assign this job to a one-man committee who, as I say, was a very competent pcrson 1 but because of the time, because they delayed with the first committee, it did not leave this very competent person much time.

And I understand that it was not a very thorough study because of the time frame, the time element involved. And, Mr. Speaker, from time to time I have been asking the minister how this figure was arrived at, this $20.3 million.

Of course I found out that it was done through this one-man survey of school boards throughout the Province, trying to ascertain what their needs would be with respect to facilities, extra facilities, new facilities, for the new high school programme, Facilities such as extra class­ rooms, extra laboratories, and gymnasiums, or gymnasia, whatever happens to be a person's preference for the plural. So this is how it was done, Mr. Speaker, and this was done in con- 3501

June 24, 1982 Tape 1659 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: sultation with school boards. And they arrived at a figure of $20.3 million, that was the amount that they arrived at that would be the minimum requirement or would be the dollars required to bring the facilities up to minimum standards. I understand, and I have asked the minister whether or not this was a realistic figure, .. 3SGi.

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1660 IB-1 MR. LUSH: because school boards throughout the Province started flexing their muscles saying that this was an inadequate amount of money, that this would not go anywhere near meeting the minimum requirements as laid down by the government for Grade XII. It would not go anywhere near meetiP~ that need. I un~ers~qnq qlso, apq this is ven enlightening, 1-1r.

Sp~aker, that w~ile thi~ : ~ • ' ' ' I \ • • st~dY was going on, wpile tnts department surv;y ~&s going on, capital works survey,you might want to call it, because that is what it was doing,looking into the capital expenditure, what monies would be needed, while this survey was going on, that the IEC and the Roman Catholic Committee conducted their own survey, their own study of what the needs would be. And the figure that they arrived at was twice that arrived at by the provincial Dcp~rtment of Education.

The figure that the IEC arrived at, two studies, two separate studies, the figure which they arrived at from their own studies, the IEC,and the Roman Catholic Committee, that revealed that they would need,each committee, the IEC-and I hope hon. members understand that the IEC is the Integrated Education Committee - and the Roman Catholic Committee, both these under separate studies revealed that they would need twice as much as that allocated or that determined by the one-man survey in the Department of Education. So, Mr.

Speaker, that is certainly revealing and enlightening, to find out that two committees came up with a figure twice that arrived at by the Department of Education. And, Mr. Speaker, that points out the dilemma that we are in with respect to bringing in Grade XII in Newfoundland. That points out the dilemma that we are in. There are schools next . 3505

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1660 IB-2 MR. LUSH : year that are not ready, they do not have the facilities, they do not have the classrooms and, Mr . Speaker, here we are one year away and we find schools in the Province not ready. Th ey do not know what they are going to do . There are at least five schools within the IEC division right now, five schools, that are in serious trouble with respect to bringing in Grade XII ,and I mean with respect to classrooms. They do not have the classroom space . They are probably going to have an extra 200 students next year and nowhere to put them.

And what is going to happen in many of those areas, we are going to be faced, ·the superintendents, the school boards will have no other cho ice but to bring in a shift system. They are going to have to bring in a shift system. And I can tell bon. me .mbers there are going to be a lot of parents throughout this Province who will object to a shift system because the shift system is very difficult to get it to fit in with a '"ork pattern, peoples' hours of work and this sort of thing . And that is what is faci~ g 3!1nR

..... June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1661 MJ - 1 Ml'. 'J'. LIJ:;JJ: s~v~r.ul school boards throughout this Province Lhis year, because they do not have the facilities to take care of Grade XII, they are going to have to work on a shift system. They do not have the classrooms, to say nothing about other support facilities, Mr. Speaker, to say nothing about scieftl==!= f~c:~H -qes, ~apo:ra~Of"Y f<7~.tii.fL~:;; t-~p:-ppghout the Province, to sa y notqi~g apout tra~ they j~st do ppt pav~ tp!= ppysical space.

And here we are two years into the programme, one mor ·e yea:r - next year will be the big year, this was the year, since 1983 will be the final commitment of all the funds. MR . SP~AKER (Aylward): Order, please! O:rder! 'rhe hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. LUSH: Time is up? Well, I will have to follow on, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will just make a few brief remarks and then perhaps my hon. friend can continue with his remarks to the House which appear to be very interesting.

I am really shocked.I do not know if hon. members have been listening to what the hon. gentleman was saying - AN HON. MEMBER: No, no. We do not want to hear that. MR. HEARN: We heard that in the Estimates Committee. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. [!EARN: We heard that in the Estimates Committee. MR. NEAR,Y: No, you did not hear it before. This is something new that has been raised by the hon. gentleman. Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is saying is that the Department of Education carried out a capital works survey, at 35!J7

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1661 M.J - 2 MR . S . NEARY : least that is what I understand from the hon. gentleman, carried out a capital \oJOrks survey, without any approval from the DEC or from t:1c Roman Ciltholic School Board as to whether or not the recommendations of the Minister of Education (Ms . L. Verge) would be accepted by the school boards, that is what I heard the hon . gentleman say . Mr . Speaker , So money was allocated to the school boards by the Minister of Education, but it had to be distributed on the formul a ti" l: is used for grantinq funds lo the Denominal i~J na l Education Committ ee.

AN HON . ME~tBER: DEC . MR. NEARY : That is :-ig"'t ,DEC . That it wa!:: I said . AN HON . MEMBER : No, you did not . MR. . NEARY: I beg your pardon, I did . The hon . gen tleman is a little hard of hearing touny . But, Mr . Speaker, it had to be granted along the lines of the formula that is being used . And so one board was short -changed, as I understand the hon . gentleman, by approximately $2 million . Eut the l:tmC\inr<, this is the im">>rtant thinq , the fuclinq \-' •1!> earmarked for specific projects -and yesterday I mentioned one , the qymnasium in Harbour Grace , St .

Paul 's School in Harbour Grace - :md \vh en the minister allocated the funds for specific projects the boards said, 'No, we are going to spend the money the •Nay \.,re want to and not the way the !linister of ~ducation wants to .' No"', Mr . Speaker, it seems to me ::I 'iii A

June 24, 1982 Tape No.l662 SD - l MR. NEARY: the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) either has to recover these funds or resign her position. It is a pretty serious matter, Mr. Speaker, it is a very serious matter 1 and I hope my colleague will pursue his line of debate when he resumes his place to further debate this matt~r, ~hat ~ap to h.appen t~ t~~t th.e minister - Mr. Speaker, I tell you that we are very concerned, We are discussing Education and Health, Social Services and Justice. The Minister of Education is not in her seat; the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) has been out of the House most of the afternoon; the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) is not in the House; and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) was here for the Question Period and then disappeared. And here we are discussing four big spenders, four departments that spend - Health, Education and Social Services - three of the biggest spending departments. And only now the Minister of Health is back. MR. HOUSE: I have bee~ here all afternoon. MR. NEARY: But the Minister of Social Services and the Minister of Education have not made an appearance in this House today.

And this is a very serious matter involving the hon. Minister of Education. The Minister of Education said,'We will grant funns for specific projects without the approval of the board. MR. HOUSE: No. MR. NEARY: The minister shakes his head, That is true and I am honinq my hon. friend will carry on with his disclosure~. HR. HOUSE: I hope your hon. friend has the facts. MR. NEARY: He certainly has got the facts. If I know my hon. colleague, who does his homework, he does have the facts.

But I am not going to pursue that 1 I going to leave that to my hon. colleague, I just want to raise another matter involving the School Tax Authority. 35nq

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1662 so - 2 MR . NEARY : The School Tax Authorities are agents of this government . Let me repeat that , Mr . Speaker , the Sc hool Tax Authorities are agent s of the provincial government . They are either acting for the l'-1inister of Justice (Mr . Ottenheimer) or the Minister of Education (Ms . Verge) so I am going to address my remarks to both ministers . And before I do that , 11r . Spea ker , I want to read a letter from a lady in Burnt Point in Concept ion Bay in connection with the school taxes . You know , Mr .

Speaker , I am becoming more convinced every day that what we are seeing happening in th is Province now is what happened leading up to the Grea t Depre ssion . The kind of things that are going on and the kind of remarks and the kind of things that are happening are the same type of things that happened before the Great Depression . And I am going to give an example now . 3S1n

June 24, 1982 Tape 1663 NM - 1 Mr> . NEARY: Itis addressed to me 6 "Dear Sir, I am writing you as a last resort about the way the Avalon North School Board at Bay Roberts are treating the unemployed people of the North Shore who ~'rtve no means of paying school taxes. They are being harassed through the mails, threatened and bullied by this school board. Now they are being arrested. My son," and she mentions his name, "has been out of work for a year • On Sunday he was arrested, taken to jail in Harbour Grace, be­ cause he had no money to pay a $25 fine.

He spent sixty-five hours in jail at a cost of about $700 to someone, guards around the clock at $10 an hour, and his meals. They let him out today in a rain storm. He had to thumb his way home,about twenty-five miles. He was soaked to the skin when he got home. "Now we all know the government is responsible for the unemployment state the Province is in and not my son or some other unemployed person. I would appreciate anything to help the situation we are in." Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a pretty sad letter indeed.

And it is a condemnation of the administration who have been criticizing the National Revenue of Canada for collecting income tax from fishermen, for the way they have treated the fishermen in this Province. Well now just look at the way the administration, the government, is treating the unemployed in this Province. There is an example, Mr. Speaker. Ifyou are unemployed and you have no money to pay your school taxes and you are prosecuted under

Section 48 of the act, and you cannot pay your $25 fine,you are dragged off to jail. AN HON MEMBER: How do you know they could not pay it? MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: At a bigger cost to the taxpayer. Mr. Speaker, the puppet asked me how do I know they could not pay it. I would take the word of this lady who wrote me the letter before I would take the word 3 s 1 ·;

June 24, 1982 MR . NEARY : MR . WARREN : Tape 1663 of the hon . gentleman . Rear, hear ~ NM - 2 MR . NEARY : And listen to this, Mr . Speaker, this is a

part I did not read . "I am an old age pen sioner "- Mr. Speaker, listen to this "I am an old aqe pensioner and I never knew the misfortune of having no money was a crim~ deserving of a jail sentence. It is a disgrace and something bas to be done about it . Is this school tax really legal? And can you tell me what sec tion 48 of the School Tax laws are? The police do not know anything about it . But they are continuing to arrest people :• MR. WARREN : Boy, is that not a shame. ~S1?

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1664 ah- 1 MR. NEARY: - ---- Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the same administration, the policies o~ the same administration that condemned the way that Ottawa was collecting income tax a~d treating fishermen of this Province. Mr. Speaker, this kind of treatment to our people, to our unemployed, to the unfortunate, to the sick is not gooq enough. The hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) can look at me over there all he wants. rhese school authorities are following the directives and the policies laid down by this government, following their directives, Mr. Speaker. There is a provision in the Act, I might, say for exemption or abatement under

Section 152(a) "An authority may grant an exemption or abatement from the school tax imposed on real property subject to the approval of the minister." MR. HOUSE: MR. HISCOCK: DR. COLLINS: MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: who brought it in. change it. MR. TULK: Who brought in school tax authorities? Do you not have the authority to change it? Yes. Then why do you not change it? Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman says, The hon. gentleman has the authority to That is right. MR. NEAR Y : And in these crying times, Mr.

Speaker, in these times of record unemployment in this Province and the high cost of living we have in this Province and all the other problems that our people have, I think it is shameful for the administration to sit back and allow our people to be dragged off to jail because they cannot pay a $25.00 fine for not being able to pay their school tax. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hon. Minister of Finance. DR,, COLLrNS: I do not know if the hon. Leader of the Opposition is going to table that letter, 3 s 11

June 24,1982 Tape No . 1664 ah-2 DR . COLLINS : I only mention that in that by having excerpts of a letter read out one really does not know what the issue is all about. MR .NEARY : I do not read excerpts, I read the whole letter . DR . COLLINS : I see . Well,perhaps even the whole letter . The hon . me .mber is suggesting that the government was directly involved in incarcerating some individual who was destitute .. In other words,some individual who has no resources of his O\•m and presumably could not pay some taxes .

I do not know if the hon . member did lay out that the ind ividual was purported not to have been able to pay hi s school tax but anyway some taxes ,and that the governme~t was involved in incarcerating that individual . Now, you know, all I can say is that seems so highly unlikely that one would certainly .,.,ant to study this issue in detail before accepting it. To think that govera'llent would even bother, would have the time, would have the interest or woul d want to incarcerate a person that is totally indigent is so outlandish ~S14

June 24, 1982, Tape 1665, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: as to be incredible. I mean, what point, what is to be gained by all that? I would think that this is a garbled account of a perfectly ordinary,straightforward, perhaps civil case, or whatever. But I think it is being presented in such a way, you know, that it boggles the mind and just ?~rnot ~~ accepte4 on its face. So if the non. m~p~f wishes to table the letter, I am sure the hon. the Minister of Justice(Mr.

Ottenheimer), who is a champion in the case of the downtrodden and tlt .":! destitute and spends almost every waking hour trying to right the wrongs done to society, and trying to help those who are not able to help themselves, I think the bon. the Minister of ,Justice, if he had that letter, he would study it in great detail and if there is even a smidgen of a doubt that there has been some wrong done to this individual, the whole weight of the Department of Justice will descend upon those who are perpetrating such a villainous act. Now, getting down to the hon. the member for Terra Nova's(Mr.

Lush) comment about how - and the bon. the Minister of Education (!-'Is. Verge) is here now, so I am sure she will want to answer in more detail, but the bon. the member for Terra Nova paints the picture where government says, 'I am going to arbitrarily and without speaking to anyone, I am going to go out and say what schools you should build, and if you want to build them there I am going to say, No, Sir, you are not going to build them there, you have to build them here.

It does not matter whether they are needed there, if you want to build them there just because you need them, I am going to build them somewhere else'. Now, this is the way,he sort of purports,the way the Department of Education 351~

June 24 , 1982, Tape 1665, Page 2 -- apb OR . COLLINS : operates, that they take one individual, without any advice, without any consultation, without any intelligence, as a matter of fact, this one individual going around the Province and arbitrarily saying , ' I am going to give you money to build something here . It does not matter whether you need it or whether you feel it is a good idea or whether it is going to help anyone, you are going to build it here or you are not going to get the money '. Now , that is the image that the hon. member painted of this government .

Well, that is so silly , that is so farcical , that is so outlandish, it violates one 's intelligence so much thut you can hardly respond to it . What I would suggest is the hon . the member for Terra Nova(Mr . Lush) perhaps may go over the ground again, think more carefully what he is going to say, lay it out, and I am sure the hon . the Minister of Education(Ms .Verge) will answer any legitimate questions ~51~

June 24, 1982 Tape 1666 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: he has and will show the fallacies of any misconceptions that he might entertain. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Yes, Mr. Speaker,_ thank you. ~hat + sai~, ~· ~r,eaker, I was pointi!lg out how the government's survey w:j.th respect to facilities, or we will call it the capital worj<:~ s~:ryey, I suppose, but it was a survey to look into the facilities for the new reorganized high school programme. And as a result of that survey they arrived at the figure of $20.3 million.

And I also indicated that two separate studies, a separate by IEC and a study by the Roman Catholic Committee indicated that they needed twice that amount. Two separate studies in- dicated that they needed twice that amount. And I was just pointing out to hon. members the inadequacy of this amount of money, something I have been saying for two years,to bring in this new high school programme. But in addition, Mr.

Speaker, to that, havinq identified the needs and the way it was done, having identified the needs of each school board area, having identified those needs and getting the schoolboards to verify them - they were identified specifically -if I could take,for example, in St. John's,it was identified that St. John's would need, Prince of Wales Collegiate would need a gynasium, it would need three classrooms, this sort of thing,all itemized and the price put in,and the school boards verified that was the price, that was the cost for bringing in Grade XII.

But the department then in their wisdom having identified this need only gave the school boards, only gave the DECs 90 per cent. 3 s '1 7

June 24, 1982 Tape 1666 PK - 2 SOf.1E HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR . LUSB: That,by the way 1 is the regulation 90/ 10 for building a school . But the school boards thought that in view of this press ur e put on them as a resu lt of having to bring in Grade XII,they thought this would be a special deal and they would get 100 per cent , but they only got 90 ~r cent. 'l·hcy were only given 90 per cent, just 90 per cent . But, ¥rr . Speaker, to complicate things further,having indentified the speci fic needs of each school board, then they ga ve the money out applying the per capita formula . SOME HON. MEMBER: Oh !

MR . LUSH: 'l'hey did it on a p er capi La basis . MH . TULK: They did not : MR . LUSH : They identified the needs ,but, I mean, it was an exercise in futility . MR. 'l'ULK : What for Grade XII ? MR . LOSH : They identified the needs for facilities in each of the school boa .rd areas - MR . TULK: Well, well, well ! MR . LUSH : - then came back to the formula of a per capita , based on a per capita formul a o r gi ven out on a per capita basis 1the same way that they have been doing it for years . Of course ,the result of that was that one of the committees experienced a short fall ~S 1 A

Jun o 24, 1982 Tape No . 1667 IB-1 HR. LUSH: of approximately $2 million , a short fall of $2 million . So here were the needs identif ied - DR . COLJ,INS : Speaker. ~m. SPF.l\KER (1\YLW/\RD) : MR . LUSI:I : A poi nt of order , Mr . Order, please ! A point of order, the hon . - - and when the total was brought together in additio n - MR . SPEAKER : Order , please ! Order ! r-tinister of Finance . DR . COLLINS : A point of order , the hon . I hesitat e to inter rup t the hon . member but, Mr . Speaker , the hon . Leader of the Opposition (.~lr . Neary) read a letter a short while ago .

He said he read it in tot al. I asked him if he was going to table the letter . He has not done so as yet . So on a poi nt of order , Mr. Speaker , I woul d ask that the hon . Leader of the Opp osition be ordered to table the letter . MR . SPEAKER : I will che ck the rules of Beauches ne to see if it is necessary for the hon. Leade r of the Op po sition to ta ble that letter . MR. LUSH : So , Mr. Speaker, there are three elements here .

One was the fact that the DECs themselve~ or element segments of the DEC verified that the money \.,as not enough tha t the gover nm ent was giving , that indeed they needed twice that amount . Point number t\oiO , that they on ly gave them 90 per cent of the cost analysis of the survey done . They only gave them 90 per cent of that . So , Mr . Speaker , thirdly , in addition to only giving 90 per cent of the monies when they indeed expected to get 100 per cent thinking this was going to be a one shot deal , here they were on 3S1q

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1667 IB-2 MR. LUSH: two counts, Mr. Speaker, not getting the monies that they thought they were going to receive . Now, Mr . Speaker , the other problem - this is the major one - associated with it was that school boards were all under the impression - this is the information that I get - that they were going to get the monies which the survey showed that they need in each of their areas. They thought they were going to get this money. For example, if in the Terra Nova 3S?n

June 24, 1982 Tape 1668 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: district it was understood that they were told that the survey showed that they needed $2 million for x classrooms, or a gymnasium, then they understood they were going to get that. But, Mr. Speaker, this is where the complication comes in. Now the minister gave the money to the DECs, gave the $20 million to the pECs - MR. TULK: Which is right and proper. MR. LUSH: - which is right and proper, that is the way monies are all given. MR. NEARY: Earmarked for specific projects. MR.

LUSH: Boards understand it was earmarked, it was earmarked for specific purposes, that it was earmarked for specific purposes. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: department. We have the evidence. we have the evidence from your MR. LUSH: But, Mr. Speaker, this is not the way it happened. Or at least it is not the way it happened with some school boards, that they have not received this money when they believe that they were promised this money, that they were given the list of what the needs would be.

But no, the minister is saying, "No, that is not the way it is." The minister has been saying all along that she gave the money to the DECs in the way they always give capital money,and they divied it out according to the needs. But, Mr. Speaker, no, the minister is saying this was not the case. The school boards understood, because this was a special project, that monies were need immediately, that there would be extra facilities needed. The 3 ~ 1"1

June 24, 1982 Tape 1668 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: school boards understood that they would be given the monies, nat•Jrally, as the were identi£ied in the survey, otherwise t-7hat was the point of the su rvey? What was the point of the survey? Now the third point, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to mention . I have mentioned the fact th at sch ool boards thought that they were going to get the 100 per cent as opposed to the 90 per cent . They thouqht that they were going to qet all of the monies that wer e requi red according to the study, and also, Mr .

Speake r, also they thought that the mini ster was going to honour her word with respect to the allocations , with re spect to the needs in each of the areas. And that did not happen . That did not happen. MS. VERGE : A po int of order, Mr . Speaker . 3S??

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1669 IB-1 tm._ SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: The hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is imputing that I lied or, to use his words,'did not honour my wore 'and I take exception to that. I have always honoured my word with respect to the qistdputipp pf ~apital funding for educaj::j.Qp. ' . . . ' ' . . . . •.' . .'. ' ~ MR .• NE!I.RY: To that point of qrqe~~ MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MH. NF.l\HY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. minister's feeling may be hurt,but my hon. colleague did in no way impugn or allege that the hon. minister was lying or had lied. My colleague said that the minister had not honoured her commitment,and that is a fact. My colleague is proceeding to lay out a strong case to prove that the minister did not honour her commitment to these school boards as a result of the capital works survey that was done directly by the Department of Education. There is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I rule that there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR.

LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. So, Mr. Speaker, just to recapitulate what I have been saying~ One, I have tried to establish that the $20.3 million was inadequate and point out the difficulty that the DECs are in in administering this programme, that the $20.3 million was inadequate, that they only received 90 per cent whe1. they thought at this point they would receive 100 per cent. 35?1

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1669 IB-2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the third point being that they thought that they would certainly get the allocations as identified by the survey. They thought that this would be a different procedure. They were under the impression that this would be a different procedure - MR. TULK: MR. LUSH: be given to this - MR. TULK: Sure they were, naturally. - that the monies would not You had no business to do the survey to start with. ~1R. NEARY: MS. VERGE: MR. NEARY: MR. LUSH: A one-shot deal. The member cannot (inaudible) . No. Why not? And the third point, Mr.

Speaker, is that then having done the survey they allocated the money on a per capita basis,which meant that the survey was of no point anyway. They identified the needs but then gaveoutthe money in a different fashion. They gave out the money on a per capita basis, which meant that one of the divisions in the DEC was just about $2 million short. Now, how could those people meet the commitment to school boards as determined by the survey when they were $2 million short when they got their monies? They were $2 million short. But, Mr.

Speaker, the point is that many school boards in the Province thought that they would get the monies that were identified to be needed by this survey. ~ S? I.

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1670 SD - 1 MR. LUSH: Here is a letter from one school board in the Province - it is not from a school board, it is from a member of a school board and it is a public letter, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. LUSH: MR. TULK: next time. MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. I cannot table my letter~ No, vou will want to read it the The hon. Min~ster of Education. Mr. Speaker, I regret that I was not present in the House when the discussion on Education began.

I was attending the closing and graduation ceremony for the School for the Deaf at the Little Theatre at the university. A number of points had been made to which I must take exception. First, I would like to rebut the comments made by the han. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), the Education critic, about capital funding for the re-organized high school programme.

The matter of capital fundings as well as all the other aspects of the major change that has been introduced in our high schools was planned over a period of months if not years by a Steering Committee comprising representatives of the major education agencies in the Pr.ovince. That Steering Committee was established in early 1979 and worked during the two years leading up to the start of the changes in high school in September past.

The Steering Committee was made up of representatives of the Department of Education, of course, which had the major co-ordinating responsibility,but also the Denominational Education Committees,the Federation of School Boards- that federation takes in each of the thirty-five school boards in the Province -the Newfoundland Teachers' Association, the Faculty of Education at Memorial University and, in addition, ~ ,'i? !:)

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1670 so - 2 MS . VERGE : these was a representative of the provincial Federation of Home and School Association . That committee,together representing those agencies, collectively made major policy recommendations and deliberated on a myriad of details which culminated in finalizing the re -organized high school programme . One particular major task \oJhich was carried out by the Steering Committee was the matter of recommending to government the amount of monev required for expansion to buildings for additional space, classroom space to accommodate the extra numbers of 3'i/h

.June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1671 MJ-1 MS. L. VERGE: students who will be in the schools as a result of the lengthening of high school, and also program support rooms that are needed to make possible the greater number and variety of courses, which is one of the chief benefits of one of the re-organization. The Steering Committee actually assigned top priority to that particular task. I think there were about five tasks which were considered the most important. A subcommittee of the Steering Committee was established to carry out each of those five key tasks, and there was a subcommittee on capital requirements.

The subcommittee carried out a sur vey of all the school boards to determine what the needs were for additions to buildings to accommodate the expanded high school program.

The subcommittee and the parent Sterring Committee were assisted in this process by the officials of the Department of Education, who went through the whole Province, consulted each of the thirty-five school boards and completed a survey of every single building housing high school grades, making projections of the number of stueents who would be participating in the re-organized high school programme in each building, predicting the courses likely to be offered, courses which were feasible to be offered, and then making an assessment of the need for extra space with a price tag attached.

A list was compiled of each of those needs with an accompanying dollar number and the total list added up to a total cost of $20,3 million. That list was subitted to the Steering Committee, which approved it, and in turn handed it to me, and government was able to approve funding to meet that total recommendation, the full $ 20.3 million for additional space requirements for the re-organized high school programme as recommended by the department -officials, the 35/7

June 24, 1982 Tape 1672 NM- 1 MS. VERGE: subconuni ttee and a steering conunittee, which is representative of the Denominational Education Committees,and the Federation of School Boards, was met by government. Now it was understood at all times by all participants in this exercise, the agencies that I have enumerated, and of course the officials of the Department of Education and members of government,that this exercise was being conducted within the framework of the denominational education system.

The principles of that system were codified in the Terms of Union with Canada in 1949 and have now been entrenched in the new Constitution of Canada, patriated version. The Constitution says that capital funds for education in our Province have to be dis­ tributed by government in a non-discriminatory basis. That is they have to be given to each group of churches or denomination involved in education which has rights in education, having participated prior to 1949, in proportion to that denomination's share of the total provincial population as determined in the most recent provincial census. At the moment, Mr.

Speaker, that ratio is as follows, approximating figures. The integrated group of denominations,which include five Protestant churches the Anglican, Moravian, the Presbyterian, United, Salvation Army and United Churches-receives about 57 per cent of capital funding, the Roman Catholic Church receives about 37 per cent of funding, the Pentecostal Assemblies receives about 5.5 per cent. The Seventh Day Adventist Church receives a small fraction of 1 per cent. These total 100 per cent. At all times in the exercise of planning for the reorganized high school program 35?A

...... June 24, 1982, Tape 1673, Page 1 -- apb MS. VERGE: a co-operative undertaking on the part of the agencies that I have listed , it was understood that the distribution of capital funds would have to be in accordance with the constitution and would have to follow the denominational ratio.

The purpose of the survey of carital re~uirements was to pinpoint the precise needs. ! rhat w~s aq unqertaking which was done with the f~ll p~rticipation of the thirty-five school boarqs, with the Denominational Education Committees with which each of the school boards is affiliated, the Integrated Committee, the Catholic Committee and the Pentecostal Committee, as well as all the others I have mentioned.

The $20.3 million being the total of the projects identified as needed was and is being distributed over a three year period to coincide with the phase in of the reorganized high school programme, according to that denominational ratio, with 57 per cent of the amount going to the Integrated Committee, 37 per cent to the Catholic Committee, and 5.5 per cent to the Pentecostal Committee. Now, that requirement laid down in our constitution was understood by all participants at all times. To my knowledge there was never any proposal to distribute the money along any other lines. And, Mr.

Speaker, I have to reiterate that my statements regarding funding for the high school programme have always been consistent with that kind of distribution which accords with our constitution. A second point, Mr. Speaker, is that present legislation requires that a school board receiving a capital project, benefitting from school construction, has to contribute to that project a minimum of 10 per cent of the cost. That arrangement has been in effect for several years. There was never 352q

June 24, 1982, Tape 1673, Page 2 -- apb MS. VERGE: any word or commitment on my part, or on the part of any other member of government, in the exercise of planning for the reorganized high school programme that that requirement be changed. The Federation of School Boards presented a report to government last November in which they recommended major changes in the financing of educa tion . With respect to capital funding,the Federation of School Boards recommended a significant change which would be that government assume total responsibility in future for the cost of school construction . ;:tS1n

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1674 MS . VERGE: That is a recommendation which has been considered . T.here has not be.en a commitment one way or the other as of yet as to government ' s response . SD - 1 M.R . SPEAKER (AyhTard) : On the operat i ng side, Mr . Speaker - Order ·, please ! elapsed . SOME HON . MEMBERS : SOI>lE HON . t-1EMBERS : MR . SPEAKCR: f1.S . VERGC : remarks later , Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: SOt-lE HON . MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: The hon . minister's time has By leave. No, no. Leave has not been grante d. I will have to conclude my The hon . member for Terra Nova . f!ear , hear . Mr .

Speaker , I just \o~ant to recapitulate because I realize it is a difficult and complex topic for hon. members - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please ! Before the hon . member £or Terra Nova starts his time, I would like to rule on a point of order raised by the Minister of Finane~ (Dr .Collins) . It is referring to a letter quoted by the Leader of the Oppositi on (Mr . Neary) . The onlv reference that I can find in Beauchesne, paragr aph 327, Secti on 6, ' A private member has neither the rig ht nor the obligatien to table an official,or any other, document '. I would entertai n any other references .

The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSR: Mr. Speaker, just to recapitu!'!te, I have been pointing out for some time that according to scheol boards and other educators throughout the Provin ce that $20.3 million is not sufficient money to bring in the Grade XII programme . Paint number t\vO is that the school 3 !i :1 'I

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1674 so - 2 MR. LUSH : boards only receive 90 per cent of the determined cost of the facilities that would be needed to bring in Grade XII. The government conducted a study found out that the cost would be X number of dollars and they only gave them 90 per cent, thu s that $20 .3 million is only 90 per cent of the governmen t' s own determined cost to provide facilities for the new high school programme .

Thirdly, hav ing done that surv ey , having identified the needs in every school board district, they did not give them the money they needed, what school boards thought they were going to get ., tf it wns determined , for example, in one school board they needed $2 million , they did not get that because the government applied the formula on the per capita basis, they gave the money out on a per capita basis . And one of the divisions of the DEC, the IEC, had a shortfall of $2 million. Now , Mr .

Speaker, wh at the minister has indicated is that that surv ey was useless an}"o~ay becau se, according to the mini ster, the survey was done, it was decided that it was going to co st X number of dollars of which 3S 1?

June 24,1982 Tape No. 1675 ah-1 MR.LUSJI: they provided $20.3 million,which was ninety per cent of the determined cost, they were going to give $20.3 million. But the survey was no good,obviously,because she just gave the money over to the DECs,that is what the minister is saying, for tqe~ to give out. But no relationsh~p now to tpe survey that was done,because the DECs were not told,'Now,you give out this money according to the surveys;but school boards understood that,in this particular case, school boards understood in this particular case -that the DECs would just simply be the delivery agency,if you will.

The survey was clone and school bourds knew -they all got a copy of what the costs were-so they were able to look at this and say, 'Wel~we are going to get $5 million out of which we are going to build three classrooms, a gymnasium or whatever, we are going to get that.' But the minister passed it over to the DECs and that was not the case;it was to be done according to tradition and according to the laws of this land. But for this one-shot deal a lot of school boards thought it was going to be different, otherwise why the survey?

Now the DECs,as I have indicated, were placed between a rock and a hard place because one division got a short fall of $2 million,so they would not be able to give the money anyway, they got a short fall of $2 million because of the formula applied, the money given out on a per capita basis. Now, Mr. Speaker, I will read a letter that has come my way. It was written to the Integrated Education Committee from one school board in this Province. The person writing the letter is not designated as an official of the school board. I think he writes it as a concerned citizen of that school board. 3~~1

June 24,1982 Tape No. 1675 ah-2 MR .LOSH : And, Mr . Speaker, this is what he says . He writes the letter to the Executive Secretary of the rntegrate d Education Committee and says , "Dear Sir ." AN HON . MEMBER : Table it . MR .LOSH : Yes,it will be tabled. "I nm astonished to lc<1 rn thnt the fin.1ncc subcommittc!'s of the Integrated Education Committee has decided to countermand the decision of the Department of Education given under the authority of the minister to provide funds to erect a gymnasium for St . Paul's High School , Harbour Grace . The matter of the funds allo cated by the minis ter for St .

Paul's High School and vetoed" - Mr . Speaker, this is very important .! will read that again-" The ma tter of the funds allocted by the minister for St . Paul 's High School and vetoed by the Integrated Education Committee is the only question at issue . No further comment was made by the Department of Education and no commitment at all was made by the Integrated Education Committee ." So , Mr. Speaker , here this ge ntleman is saying th~t the IEC vetoed the directive by the minister,or 35 .'H

June 24, 1982 Tape 1976 PK "'" l MH. LU.SII: whichever way it goes, it did not necessarily have to be signed by the minister herself, but from her department saying that the monies were allocated for St. Paul's High School for a gymnasium. But the IEC vetoed that. ~ow t~ goes op to pay "In preparation for the reorganized high school progratruriF.!, the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) ordered a survey of all high schools in the Province to ascertain the need for additional faci+ities. The need for a gymnasium for St. Paul's High School was recognized and funds allocated for that purpose.

Nothing could be more definite and final. We had not asked for this gymnasium. It was granted to provide St. Paul's High School with the minimum acceptable facilities for the new programme as stated in the minister 1 s release. 1' This is what the letter says. It says, "The monies were allocated for St. Paul's High School as stated in the minister's release." And I will just inform the minister of what the gentleman was talking about and she can say whether it is correct or not.

Somewhere after the study was done and the government allocated the $20.3 million based on its survey, I am told that a letter carne out from the department to each of the school boards saying these are your needs, and they were all specified, these are your needs. And they were all specified school, free classrooms, a gymnasium and all this totals, for example, say, $2 million. And the letter stated that this will be given to you over the next three years by the DECs - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: - by the appropriate DEC division , this is the way it was done.

That the minister had said that this is our cost analysis MR. TULK: Did you do that? ~ s .1 s

June 24 , 1982 Tape No . 1976 PK -2 MR . LUSH : - this is the result of our survey, and this is what we found in your school board and your needs are these in dollars and cents and specified the item . So , as I have said, just to use a hypothetical figure, say for school board X it was $2 million to out on three classrooms and a gym . And 1.,rent on to say that this money will be passed over to the DECs and they lvill i.n turn give the money to you, deliver it to you over the next three years . MR . TULK : Did she say that? tJ.R · LUSH : But in this case , this was the understanding - MR . 'l'ULK : ----- Seriously, diJ you write that letter? ~c;':l ~

~ - June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1677 IB~l MR. LUSH: ~f I can generalize, this is what a school board member is understanding. So, Mr. Speaker, the letter goes on to say, 'An untenable situation now exists in Newfoundland education. ~ committee deriving its authority from government has publicly defied a decision of the Minister of Education and usurped the prerogatives of government'. And it goes on to say that, 'Tradition offers few options'. It says, 'One, a reversal of the decision by the committee with an apology to the minister. Secondly, an overruling of the decision by the minister with reprimand.

Third, resignation of the present members of the DEC committee. Fourth, a resignation of the Minister of Education.' But now, Mr. Speaker, the letter is not all that blatant. It goes on to say, 'The last option is least desirable and most unjust since the minister is quite innocent of involvement in the matter. The Integrated Education Committee has offended the dignity of the office of the Minister of Education and set at naught the authority of a minister of the Crown.' Now let me explain to the minister the questions that have to be answered as a result of that,and I will table the letter, Mr. Speaker.

The problem is the survey was done in consultation with school boards with their superintendents and the needs were identified and the cost of these needs. A second letter was sent back to verify v:i tb school boards whether or not-each individual school board-~o verif~ whether or not this was the cost, whether these were the needs, and whether the costing was right. And the superintendents verified that it was. 3537

IJ'une 24, 1982 Tape No. 1677 IB-2 "MR. LUSB : Now obviously school boards would think,having gone through that procedure they would have thought that when the money was given to the DECs it would be passed over to them since the study was done with each school board identifying specifically what the needs were. It was only natural that school boards would think that that is the way it was supposed to be. But what the minister has to clarify 35:1A

June 24, 1982 Tape 1678 NM - l MR. LUSH: is whether or not the DECs were given any instructions to qive out the money according to the cost analysis study that was done, or whether the money was given, the same as all capit<;~.l, works monies, for the DECs to divy out in the way that they always ~id it, meetin9 with their own particular sc~ool . ' . I boards and identifying the needs.

Because if that is the way it was done, if the money was given out in this way, in the way that all capir~l works monies are given out 1 then the survey was useless and just created misunderstanding with school boards because school boards are out there waiting to get the money that was identified by this cost analysis study, as happened with this particular school board. MR. SPEAKER (Avlwnrn) : Order, please~ Order! The hon. - - -- . . ---- member's time has elapsed. MR. LUSJI: This particular school board believes, Mr.

Speaker, that they are entitled to monies from the minister and there needs to be some explanation. MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is saying by inference that the denominational education system, and the principles which that embodies about distribution of public funds for school construction,should be done away with and that there should be some alternative arrangement.

I am intrigued by the hon. member's remarks and I would be interested in hearing an expansion of his proposal for an alternative to the denominational education system. What the hon. member has said is that in the case of the reorganized high school programme that the $20 million-plus of public funds dedicated for facilities should have been distributed directly by government, by the Department of :15.3q

June 24, 1982 Tape 1678 NM - 2 MR. VERGE: Education, to school boards, wi th the Denominational Education Committees, the arms of the churches in education,bypas sed. The hon. member is suggesting that it was somehow wrong and improper and inefficient of governme nt to have given the money in the traditional way, according to the principles of the denominational eoucation system, to the Denominational Education Committees.

Further,the member is suggesting that there was something wrong in apportioning that money according to the denominational ratio in a non-discriminatory way, which is required by our Constitution. 7\nd \vhat I would like the hon. member to do is to outline his pro posal for changing the denominational education system and for distributing public funds for school construction in future. This is perhaps the first time in the history of this hon.

House, or certainly in the three year s that I have been privileged to be a member, that I have heard a member propose an alteration to, a change in the denominatio~al education system. And I would very much like to hear the hon . member's suggestions for an alternative to this system of education which we have had for many yea~s. Now the hon. member quoted ~ s 1. n

:!.....':.._ June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1679 MJ - 1 MS. L. VERGE: from a letter, the copy he was reading, I have not seen but I gather that it is one that was recently published in a couple of the St. John's newspapers. The author of that letter evidences a misunderstanding of the denominational education system, deliberate or otherwise. He indicates that the Denominational Education Committes get their authority from government when in fact their authority is derived from the Constitution.

One of the key features of our system of education is that there is a partnership between government and the churches, those denominations which earned rights in education because of early involvement, rights codified in the Terms of Union back in 1949.

Under this partnership each ol the' p.1rlners h.1s certain riqhts \'i'hich compliment each other, and this partnership has worked well, In the case of the capital funding for the re-organized high school programme, tradition was honoured¥ The Denominational Education Committees and the Department of Education worked hand in hand as partners, jointly participated on the Steering Committee,which I outlined earlier, jointly carried out the survey of building requirements, which government fully approved by allocating the total amount of money identified, $20.3 million. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to remind hon. members of the generous commitment of the Peckford administration to improving our high school education. For school construction,specifically to cover those needs relating from the expansion, with the new curriculum and credit system and the extra gractes, there is provided the $20.3 million over three years. But in addition to that, Mr. Speaker, there has been a provision for the past two years of $10.8 million,so that in the present fiscal year it is estimated that there will be $22.8 million for new school construction in our Province. Now, in addition to that, Mr.

Speaker, for operating requirements of school boards, ~54

June 24, 1982 Tape No . 1679 HJ - 2 MS . L . VERGE : basically ::11 t:1e o-oeratincr cost~ except for teachers salaries, which are paid directly by the provincial government, there is provided in the estimates currently being ocnsidered 1n across -the-board increase of twelve per cent, but in addition to the t\oJelve per cent increase, Mr . Speaker, a $2 .5 million fund to be given to those school boards most in need . And with those operating funds,scho ol boards will be able to come up with their minimum ten per cent share of the cost of new capital projects . 3~

h) June 24, 1982, Tape 1680, Page 1 -- apb MS. VERGE: A major breakthrough in these estimates is a $400,000 fund, Mr. Speaker, $400,000 to be given by the Department of Education to subsidize the cost to school boards of equipment needed for the new courses being added in our high schools. These courses include, Mr. Speaker, science courses. Chemistry and physics are being introduceq in many of our schools for the first time anq are beipg offered to more and more students.

Business Education, Mr. 'speaker, typing and other Business Education courses are being offered not only through the pre-vocational programme but in all kinds of schools across the Province, in rural and urban centres. Another course which will benefit from this $400,000 subsidy fund, Mr. Speaker, is industrial art. There are a lot more shop courses in schools across the Province now than were possible formerly. And, of course, horne economics, again an expansion in enrollment. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, the biggest outlay of public funds of all for the improvements in high school is the generous increase in the number of salaries for teachers in relation to the number of students. Mr. Speaker, last year, in April of 1981, government announced a three year plan to increase the number of teachers which, when fully implemented in September of 1983, with the main component of the allocation formula being a ratio of twenty-three to one, will provide 760 more teaching positions across our Province, for kindergarten through Grade XII, than we would have had if we had not made those changes.

And of that 760 total, Mr. Speaker, there will be new jobs created totalling about 470. That is a significant boost 3541

June 24, 1982, Tape 1680, Page 2 -- apb MS . VERGE : to our education system and to the economy of the Province. And, Mr. Speaker, when that commitment is fully implemented in little more than a year from now, in september of 1983, assuming none of the other provinces of Canada alter their pupil/teacher ratios, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador will have the lowest pupil/teacher ration in the whole country, and that is according to Statistics Canada information . SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MS .

VERGE : Comparing apples with apples , dividing all the teachers of every kind, specialist teachers, special education teachers, class ­ room teachers from kindergarten through high school by the total number of students, Newfoundland and Labrador will have the most generous provision of teachers when our commitment is fully implemented in the next school year, 1983 - '84, which coincides with the start of Grade XII . 351..4

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1681 SD - l MS. VERGE: Now, Mr. Speaker, hon. members opposite are talking about some kind of a letter. The member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) read a letter which I have not seen yet, It sounds like the letter I read in the St. John's newspapers, in the Letters to the Editor column, by Mr. Roy Goodwin of ~qrbo~r Grace,to the Intergrated Education Committee. I h~Ve ·~O reiterate that Mr. Goodwin, according to his let~et as pqblished, ~oes not evidepce a proper · .. ' . ' . understanding of the principles of our denominational education system.

Apparently he does not understand that there is a partnership between the provincial government and the churches,that each has certain rights which are ~omplimentary, that in the area of school construction the Denominational Education Committees have the right to receive public funds on a non-discriminatory basis and that they have the sole right to distribute those funds. The churches alone, under our Constitution, determine priorities for school construction .

This determination has always been done in co-operation with the Department of Education, a co-operation which has been enriched over the past couple of years, and there was outstanding co-operation, Mr. Speaker, in the preparation for the reorganized l-tigh school programme. Mr. Speaker, I would like to end by again calling on the hon. member for Terra Nova to outline to this hon. House his ideas for an alternative to our denominational education system. I would like for him to explain - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MS.

VERGE: - under what arrangements our Constitution could be changed so that the Denominational Educational Committees would be cut out of decisions relating 3S41i

June 24, 1982 Tape No. lli8l SD-2 MS. VERGE: to school construction - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER( Aylward) : Order, please! MS. VERGE: - so that funds could be allocated on a discriminatory basis. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Hountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief - MR. NEARY: l~l'COVl~r lilc funds ,,r ,-,,:; i qn. MR. WARREN: - because my hon. colleagues from Terra Nova ( Mr. Lush ) and Fogo ( Mr. Tulk ) want to ask more questions of the minister. But I want to lay on the Table, Mr.

Speaker, two photographs that I had the privilege of taking. These are of the interior of the Nain school about which' '.:he minister said I was exaggerating in the Committees there a while ago. MR. DAWE: Oh, no, the hon. member is exaggerating. MR. WARREN: So I had the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, of going to Nain last week and I took two photographs of a room in that school where there is usually a blanket or a piece ~f plywood or so~ething like that used for a door. So I w~nt to lay these on the Table, Mr. S~eaker, to show the hon. Minister of Education ( Ms. Verge ) that this is a fact - M.S.

VERGE: What does pupil/teacher ratio mean? MR. WARREN : - that this is really happening in Nain, where teachers are obliged to teach in little cubby-holes \vith no doors to them whatsoever. And the minister is so preoccupied with Grade Xll, yet she does not even have facilities and infrastructure in place for grades 3 s ;. ~

June 24, 19 82 Tap e No. 1681 SD-3 M!<. WARRF.N: that we already have in the Province. ~~47

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1682 IB-1 MR. WARREN: I just want to lay these on the table, Mr. Speaker, and the minister can see for herself that I was not exaggeratinc:r when I told her that the teachers are obliged to teach in . the schools in Nain \vith blankets up in place of doors. MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : Order, please! Before I recognize the next speaker, it being five o'clock on Thursday I have to ~nvise hon. members that we have two items foLdebate on the Late Show, the first item being an item from the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) who says he is not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister of Health (Mr. House) with respect to the salmonella poisoning. And the second questionis also from the han. member for Torngat Mountains who is not satisfied '-''ith the answers gi,en by the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) rethe discontinuance of EPA's Tuesday flight to and from Labrador. The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: ----- Mr. Speaker, I want to say something about this ooint that the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) brought before this House.

I think the minister,a minute ago,looked across the House at the member for Terra Nova and asked him if he wanted to change the system of allocation of funds for school construction in this Province. I would suggest to the minister that she,herself,in setting up the Grade XII pron)7arnrne, has gone a long ways toward doing exactly that, changing that system. Even some of the things that are being said in this House today - 3S4A

Jun e 24 , 19B2 MR . SIMMS: MR . 'l'ULK: Tape No . 16B2 IB- 2 That is progress . That is progess. It probably might be, Mr. Speaker, but if they want to change it,then let them do it in the legal fashion in this Rouse . 'l'hc minister Silys she set up a steering committee of which there was a sub-committee to do a survey in this Province . The fact of the matte .r is, as \.re understand it, that that sub- committe .e was aborted, and in a hurry the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) appointed a gentleman to go around this Provinc .e and establish priorities for the Department of Educati on .

At that point,after hurriedly establishing those pri orities and the survey ·was done, the min i ster allo cated $20 . 3 million to the DECs. Now let me ask the minister a few questions . If indeed the DECs are the people in this Province who are going to put the school construction in place for Grade XII , why did this min i ster , he r self,have to carry out that survey? The DECs had done the i r survey , were doing their survey,and they indicated that there was twice the amount needed that the minister had allocated 1 3!)~q

June 24, 1982 Tape 1683 l?K -1 MR. TULK: so why did she, in the beginning,interfere in that process? Why did she not go to the DECs? :\iR. HORGAN: The hon. Rompkey is the man tosend to for help. MR. TULK: Well,I can call him a he. Would the he from Bonavista (Mr. Morgan) please be quite. Why did the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) go to the DECs with her list rather than saying to them,would you go out- we need this much for Grade XII, would you go out and do a survey and come back to this government and say how much is needed to bring Grade XII into this Province? Because that is their job.

Regardless of whether the minister realizes it or not,the DECs are the people in this Province who set the priorities for school construction. MS. VERGE: Tell that to your friend from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) • MR. NEAR,Y; No,he is telling you. MR. TULK; He is trying to tell you. MR. NEARY: You overruled them. MR. TULK: He is trying to tell you. Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister has set up her priorities, she set up her priorities for the DECs and for the school boards in this Province. MR. NEARY: And they would not buy it. . ~~ . . MR. TULK: Weli; Mr. Speaker, what irony! What irony!

If you ask that minister a question in this House about school construction in the Province and the allocation of funds for a specific school, she stands in her place and says, quite rightly, the DECs are the people to allocate funds for school construction in the Province and who deciu.e on the priorities. But here we have her own 3.ssn

June 24, 1982 Tape 1683 .PK - 2 MR. 'l'ULK: flipping in her enthus iasm for Grade XII, she flipped and said, "No,I am going to establish the priorities" . And would not boards think - if you are going around this Province doing that survey , the boards would naturally think that whatever the minister says is going to be allocated fo r Gra.de XII , a special project,is what is going to be allocated . Now, Mr . Speaker , then she goes and allocates,which again is right, t-~hich she has to do to sh01• the fallacy of the whole situation, she goes and allocates the funds on a per capita basis for a special project .

Grade XII to be considered special . The extensions that are needed, the classrooms that are needed to be added on , the gymnasiums and so on , that has to be considered special. MR . NEARY : She .made a gigantic blunder . MR . TULK : The minister was saying - by doing that - the minister \<las saying that the needs of every school board in this Province are the same for that extension. ~~~

June 24, 1982 Tape No. 1684 AH - 1 MR. TULK: In other words, they are all equal at this point in time and we are just going to allocate on a per capita basis to keep them equal. But she should have recognized that one of the real problems in this Province is that there are certain school boards in the Province which have good facilities already for Grade XII and there are other school boards which do not. She should have recognized that, and she should have perhaps encouraged the DECs and the school boards to come to some sort of an agreement on that but she did not.

She did not do that, she allocated on a per capita basis without playing a leadership role in that regard. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I have basically said is that I believe that the minister has somehow, and I do not believe knowingly, I think it was overenthusiasm to do her job for the Premier who says you have to have Grade XII in Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: Or ignorance of the system and procedures. MR. TULK: And I think somewhat - yes, there must have been some ignorance of the system itself. But the member for Terra Nova introduced a very improtant question a few minutes ago.

And this is where the minister can say - never mind getting up and talking about the beautiful courses we are putting in Grade XII, never mind about the number of teachers we are putting in Grade XII. MR. HOUSE: Ali you can talk about is facilities. MR. TULK: The former ministet ~~o gbt flicked out of it should be quiet. He got flicked out of the Department of Education. Mr. Speaker, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) has said that ~c;c;;

June 24 ,1982 Tape No . 1684 ah-2 .tvlR .TULK : as far as he knows the minister wrote ~ letter to the school boards saying that as a result of our survey here are your needs. MS VERGE : I did not write anything . MR .TULK : Well ,if you did not get up and say so . Never mind getting on with all this nonsense . In a minut