VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY I MARCH 7 I 1980• •. NO. 6

March 7, 1980 The House mec at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the O!.air. MR. SPEAXER (Simms): Tape No. 186 SD - l Order, please! If I miqht,I would like to invite the attention of all hon. members to the Standinq Orders with respect to Prt!!lenting Petitions. Standi .ng Order 90 says, "Every member offering a petition to the House shall siqn it with his own hand." And Standing Order 91 (

a) requires that, "At least three siqnatures must appear on the paqe containing the prayer of the petition. • I bring that to the attention of all hon. members. I would also on behalf of the hon. members like to welcome to the galleries fifty-eiqht Grade IX students from Mary Quei!n of the World School in Mount Pearl acr::ompanied by their teachers , Mr. Glavine and Miss Kavanagh , and the school principal 1 Sister Martina 0' Reilly. SOME HON, MEMBERS : Hear, hear. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Coanuni.-:ations. MR. C. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, this is in connection wi~~ the Auditor General's Report. With respect to the recovery of an overpayment of public funds to a helicopter company in the amount of $29,334 1 I am pleased to advise that the company has indeed admitted that the payment was an overpayment and that the mechanics have been put in motion to rec~r the amount of money involved. In the course of the audit of my department, the Auditor General questioned a payment in the amount of $580 under subdivision 1708.03.02 Helicopter Contrac~ as to its validity as an expenditure of public funds. The ssao represents the costef 497

March 7 , 1980 Tape No. 186 SD - 2 MR. C. BRE'l"l' : 2.9 hours of flying time only and although Icwill acknowledge that the administrative controls in this particular transaction were e:ercised soaewhat shoddily and less than satisfactory, the department is convinc:eci that the expenditure vas a true and valid charge. The Auditor General also referred in general to the unsatisfactory administrative and acco\lDting control over use of contract aircraft. The points be raises are well taken but they are comments which pertain to the Air Services operation as it was conducted two aJid three years aqo.

Many chanqes have been made since the Auditor General's 1977-78, 1978-79 reports were produced. I believe that the Auditor General will attest that the appropriate administrative controls are now in place and, 1110re important, are beinq adhered to. Naturally, we as a depa..rtDtent are less than pleased with the AUditor General's past collllll8t1ts on the operation of the Air Services. we are dete~,bowe1rer, to perfolCil in such a fashion that there will be no questionable activities, thus denying the Auditor General the opportunity of making similar or any comments of a like nature in the future. AN HON.

MEMBER: Hear, near. 49B

·--- ---- - . !-!a:::·:::. 7' 1 ~80 Tape ~Jo . 187 EL -1 !1R,SPEAKER (Sili1IIls) : ~lR. T. BENNETT: The hen. the ~~er for St. Barbe. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am some- wha.t amazed and to say the least disturl:led to learn of such discrep­ ancy in what we are to understand is such a tight control with such a government that looks to serving the public to the best of its ability, which seems to be not very good.

When :: have · operated a business rr.y­ self, I have, had to have much, much better control on the funds that I controlled in my business and when I owed any money to any department in goVernment the whole house came tumbling down. one thing I would like tp know is what happens now to the twenty-nine-off thousand or any dollars that might be recovered - MR. NEARY: And how much li'Ore (inaudible)? 1m. T. BENNETT: -and how much more will be 11ncovered and bxought to the attention of the electorate and this hon. House of Assembly? My district alone in st.

Barbe could most certainly use any and all of these dollars that might become available. As I look around me and see all these young people in the galleries todiy, Mr.

Speaker, it reminds me that over in my district we are working so terribly hard to have the llp­ qrading of our education system and our auditoriums and our qymnasillllls and everything else llp-qraded for our young p.;!ople, when I see the misuse of funds in this respect when they should have gone towards the education of our young people, I would most certainly like to see a stop put to this and a control placed on funds that are collected from our people in the district. MR. SP'ElU<ER (Simms) : The hen. the Minister of Municipal l'-.ffairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR~ Mr.

Speaker, in relation to two items in the Auditor General's Report. Paragraph 17, Collection of receiv­ ables not being persued. These receivables relate to loans advanced 499

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 187 EL - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: to municipalities during the period 1954 to 1966 in respect to loans advanced to municipalities for minor public works which did not :involve major capital financing. This prac­ tice has now been discontinued and the government no longer makes loans to li!Wlucipalities. It was subsequently dete:rxnined that these loans could hot be repaid and a recomntendation was made to the Treasury Board that they be written off as uncollectable.

The Auditor General has been advised by the Deputy Minister and Comptroller of Finance (acting) that cabine~ will now be asked for approval to have these outstanding amounts written off during the 1980-81 fiscal year. Paragraph 41, User of an industrial water system not billed since 1971. The customer referred to was not bill­ ed prior to 1978 because of the nUII!ber of serious breakdowns in the salt water system and the heavy dependence which that company had to place on their own salt water system.

This situation has been corrected and the company in question was invoiced for the use of :the system for the years 1978 and 1979 ·in the amount of $19,584. Because of probletr's with the system, it was 500

:1arch 7, 1980 Tape No. 188 DW - 1 :·!R. N. ~HllDSO R: felt that the previous I:leter readings were unreliable and an average meter reading would not be realistic. Consequently, the source of information utilized to establish the charge was the pump records maintained by the fish plant operator.

This situation is the exception -rather than the rule and invoices to commerical customers are, in fact, prepared on an individual basis of water consumed as determined by meter readings and it is only when problems are experienced with meters in various isolated cases,or where there is serious breakdown in the water main itself resulting in a substantial loss of water that. the billings are determined on the basis of average consumption over a fixed period. But in no case are collections based on custome~s· estimates. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) ~~e hon. member =or 3urin - Placentia ~··est.. ;.:R. D. HOLLETT: Mr.

Speaker, in connection . with the fir.st item, reference to paraqraph 17 in the report, I would like to make a brief comment and to me it is out­ standing that Sl.75 million going back to 1954 was left basically on the bo~ks. And as stated in the report, this is the fourth consecutive year t~at the Auditor General has requested that action be taken on this matter. ~Tot kno\vinq all the·background and where,but I do believe I know where some of those amounts are and I think it is despicable that those municipalities were left feeling either (

a) eonfident that they did not have to repay or (

b) that they did not have the capabilities to repay. And to take four years to make a decision whether they should be written off or not,and especially since no payment has been made on any since 1973, that is seven years, then r am haP?Y to see that the ~uditor General's recommendations are finally being followed. 50 1

~l arch 7, 198 0 Tape No. 188 DW - 2 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultu:e. MR. R. DAWE i Mr. Speaker, I have the following comments for this hen. House pretaining to paragraphs 25 .and 26, page 19 and paragraphs Jl and 32, page 24 of the Auditor General's report for the financial year March 31st. 1979 . Weaknesses in controls over licences. When the 'iildlife ~ivision was transferred from the Department of Forestry and Agriculture in 1973 ,the issuing and control of fisheries and game licences was transferred with the &ivision.

No guidelines were available nor was there any evidence of the account • having been reconciled. After the 1977 audit, at the r suggestion of the Auditor General,the control and issue of all licences was transferred from the Wildlife »ivision of my <Department to my ACcounts .gi1tision and procedures commenced to set up proper controls. As of this date,all licences have been accounted for and reconciliations•completed in all cases exc~pt big game which,because of the computerized distribution, is creating some problems.

This problem is being pursued by our Accounts staff and hopefully all controls will be place prior to the 1980 big game issue. 502

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 189 NM - 1 MR. R. DAWE: Guidelines have now been drawn up for the issue and control of all licences and our procedures have been amended in accordance with suggestions from the Internal Audit Division of the Department of Finance and our Accounts personnel. Loss of revenue resulting from not collecting park fees. It has never been the policy of my Department to collect fees in any Provincial park until such time as services warrant such collection.

Such services include availability of a water supply, adequate accommodations for the collection of such fees, and adequate staff to administer the programme. Park regulations are presently being ameded to accommodate these situations. Contract 'Uld oavment of funds without proper authority. Cabinet authorized the Minister of Tourism to enter into an agreement with the Department of Regional Economic expansion for a Tourism S~sidiary Agreement. Under this agreement, funding was provided to build campgrounds in Eastern Newfoundland and Western Newfoundland.

After consideration of all factors concerned, the Management Committee of the Tourism Subsidiary agreement decided that the campsites to be build in Eastern Newfoundland be built in Pippy Park with their agreement. Agreement was reached with The Pippy Park Commission and the campsites were constructed. This matter was referred to the Department of Justice for a legal opinion and •~ have been advised that the actions undertaken were appropriately authorized and within the sphere of the Department of Tourism.

It was, however, pointed out by the Department of Justice that it is,however,an area where there is an over­ lap of jurisdiction and as a matter of form the Minister of Public Works and Services should be kept fully advised of all developments. This,I might add,was done in this particular instance. 503

Marc h 7, 1980 Tape No. 189 NM- 2 MR. DAWE: Study of sport fishing potential on Labrador Rivers. As a result of discussions between the Premier and the Department of Tourism concerning the freeze on sport fishery development on Labrador Rivers, it was agreed that the Department of Tourism should carry out an assessment of sport fishing in some of the Labrador Rivers. Treasury Board authority was requested to carry out this assessment and approval received for the Department of Tour~sm to spend $17,00 on this project. It was agreed between the Department of Tourism and A.G.

Garrett Limited of Gander, the company requested to caxry out the assessment, that pal'ment ·would be made in the following manner: - SS,OOO expense advance to be accounted for by the Ccmpany and $4, 000 per month for three months on the condition that the final payment WQuld not be made until after receipt of the final report on the assessment. The use of air.craft by A.G. Garrett Limited was supplied by the Department of Transportation and Communications and had no bearing whatsoever on the Treasury Board authorit y for the $17,000 payment from Tourism.

Despite requests made several months ago tothe company to give a detailed account of the $5,000 expense advance, this accounting has not been received to dat .e. Therefore, the Department of Tourism is now considering legal action against that company. MR. SPEAI<ER (Sim!ns) : The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Spe~er, just a couple of comments. After the 504

March 7,1980 Tape No .l90 Ah- 1 MR. WHITE: confusion we have seen with big game licenses in Newfoundland under chis adminiscracion,r am sure chat all ~he hunters across the Province would ~e delighted to know that the Department of Tourism plans to try and con sol idate the issuing of licenses and the revenue coming in from same. I imagine you would have heard some fairly loud cries if the minister had not tried to reconcile Ln one instance 900 licenses for caribou in Newfoundland. Mr.

Speake r, I agree with the number two thins thac the minister mencioned with respect to not charging people co entar Provincial parks uncil services are provided. As a matter of facc,I am noc so sure you should charge them even when ser vices are provided . With respect to the study of sport fishing potential on the ~abrador rivers, that sounds a b~t strange , Mr. Speaker. The Auditor General talks about ~o cor.tr~r.t _ ex4s;ing and the minister did ·not address himself to that, wh y there was no contract and the fact that $17,)00 was spent.

That means that it is a couple of thousand dollars over the l4mit when tenders need to be called. The minister says here that the final payment would not ~e made until afcer receipt of the final report on the assessment and, since we are permitted to ask a questiom or two in our brief comments,! was wondering if that assessment had been rece ivec and 1f the House will get a chance tc ~ave a look At what lc said about the Labrador rivers. MR . SPEAKER (Mr.Simms): :IR. O;>,WE: The hon. M~nister of Tourism. I have the report ~ere.

There is a~ addic~onal ite~ to go with the report. tha~ ~s the ~aps that would be attached to it and my department is p ~ tting these maps 1 0 and so on and they will be available and ! will ?resen t it to the Bou se on Mondav. 505

March 7,1980 M~. S?EAKE~ {Simms): Manpower . MR. DI~N: stacemen t to make. Tape No. 190 AB -2 The hon. Minis~er of Labour and Mr . Speaker, I just have a brief I~ is wich respect to recent :epor~s in the press by the NFFAWU stating ~ha~ worker's compensation ooveraqe is noc available to fishermen. And I want to scace co che Souse quite clearly chat these statements are inaccurate and misleacing. In facc,compensacion coverage has been mandatory for people in the fishing industry since an amendment to che act in 1973. This coverage is on the same basis which is appl~ca ble to people working in o~her i~dust:ies.

Where a boat owner or cap~ ain has cwo or more employees on the boat in addition to the owner or captain ,worker's compensacion automa ticall y applies. A boac owner is required by law 506

March 7, 1980 Tape 191 EC - l MR. OINN: to pay the necessar1 assessment to the Compensation Board in the same manner as the owner or operator of a service station or restaurant or some other enterprise 1 and is required to pay that assessment. Where there is a case of all persons aboard the boat being partners in the fishing enterprise, compensation is not mandatory. However, these partners can apply for and obtain coverage. The problem has been that the beat owners or operators have been very reluctant to pay the required assessment.

Apparently, according to several letters received by the board, the union has been advising them not to pay the assessment. If the statements contained in ~~ose letters are correct, then the union is in effect advising the fishermen to break the law. The matter of how to collect the necessary assessment is now under study by the board and will be presented to government in the near future. Based on a request by L~e Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Morgan) 1 I will be meeting wi ~~ the NFF AiVU in the very near future as soon as ~~e Minister of Fisheries sets up that meeting and we will discuss the various approaches that we will be taking with respect to collecting the assessment so that coverage will be complete ~~roughout ~~e fishing industry. ~. Speaker, I wanted to make that quite clear because ~aybe some people do not know that the fishermen in this Province are indeed covered :Oy ~-lorkers Compensation. M_~. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon. L~e member for Trinity - Bay de Verde . :-IR. F • ROl-lE : :orr.

Speaker, I do not seem to have a copy of the minister 's statement. MR. Dim<: (Inaudi.ble). !·!R. F • ?.0't7E : You did no~ have a copy? Well, obviously , i"!r. Speaker, it i3 a very complex situation that the minister is speaking about, involving the 507

March 7 , 1980 Tape 191 EC - 2 .MR. F. ROWE: union, the federal government and the provincial government, the fishermen and that sort of thing. The minister has made a very serious charge here this morning in the House of Assembly in accusing the Fishermen's Union of advising the fishermen of this Province to break the law, and I hppe that there is some way that this can be settled between the minister and the Fishermen' s Union because if these series of confrontations continue to exist we are not going to sol.ve any prob.l.ems whatsoever.

And the onl.y ones who are going to lose in this whole situation, of course, are the fishermen themsel. vas. I might add as well., if this matter is as complex as it appears to be, I would assume that something would be contained in the Fishermen's Handbook or some informational. book that woul.d hel.p a fishennan in this particul.ar instance. I do not know if one is to be published this year or not. I know there have been Fishermen's Handbooks published in the past and I would hope that such information would be contained therein so that there woul.d be no doubt whatsQever 508

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 192 so - 1 MR. F. ROWE: where the fishermen stand with respect to the law,not with respect to how the union feels or how a certain political party feels or even a company feels but. how the fishermen stand with respect to the law of the land. I would hope that these factors will be taken into consideration when the minister goes into his deliberations with the Newfoundland Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers Union. MR. SPEAJCER: (Simms): The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POWER: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to take a moment to answer some questions asked by the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. G. Flight) in relation to a mention in the Auditor General's Report related to the Department of .. .. . - -- ·- Finance and the Forest Land (ManaqeDH!nt and Taxation) Act. A statement by the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has earlier answered s0111e of these questions. I wouid like to address some of the forestry aspects of these questions. My answers will not be in the same order as the questions were asked by the member.

This is ~o facilitate an understanding of the issue as it relates to the Forest Land (Management and Taxation) ~ct. First of all, I would like to describe the procedure of taxation. All forest lands 300 acres and more are subject to the Forest Land (Management and Taxation) Act, 1974. The land holders are required to submit a Management Plan to the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands and apply for a Certificate of Managed Land Status. The minister declares the land either managed or unmanaged according to the content of the plan submitted.

A Certificate of Managed Land is issued with the consent of ~~e Lieutenant-Governor in Council if the minister de~lares the land managed. The landholders are also required to report compliance with the plan each year. The Certificate can be amended or cancelled depending on the performance of the 509

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 192 so - 2 MR. C. POWER: landholders. There is an appeal mechanism under this act. The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands then informs the Tax Assessor of the nepartment of Finance about the Managed Land Status of the landholders. Independent of the actions by the Department of Forest Resources and Lands, all landholders MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A point of order, l".r. Speaker. Order, please! On a point of order , the hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

S • NEARY: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman, Sir, but if I understood the hon. qentleman correctly in the beqinninq he said that he was answerinq some questions that were asked by the member from Buchans (Mr. G. Fliqht). Now there is a time and place to answer questions, Mr. Speaker. Just for the sake of keeping the record straight, the hon. qentleman obviously is not malting a ministerial statement, he is answering questions and he should wait for the appropriate time on the Order Paper to answer these questions. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. W.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is not a valid point of order. The proceedings of this House start off with ministerial statements. A member of the ministry may make a statement on a topic of interest and the fact that the matter of interest may have first emenated from a question that had been posed by another member opposite is completely irrevelant. 51 0

March 7, 1980 Tape 193 EC - 1 MR. W. MARSF.ALL : Now, the han. gentleman has the right to make the statement uninterrupted 1 _a, member on the opposite side has the right to comment and if other members wish to ask questions, this party has provided a Question Period to this House so that they can be asked. MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: on the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is there another point of order?

On the hon. gentleman's point of order. on the point of order, the han. ~~e I do not believe that anyone - and particularly, as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said, he had no wish to interrupt ~~e hon. member. We have had a series of statements, none of which we have argued with or complained about because they are quite accurate and quite appropriate, in which Ministerial Statements have been made relevant to the Auditor General's report.

It may have been an unfortunate phrasing which the hon. member used, but in starting his comments ~~is morning, he said that he was in fact answering questions raised by the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. G. Fligh~). I suggest ~~t in those circumstances,it may be a fine point, but ~t is an appropriate one and I think that if we are going to abide by ~~e rules then we should do so. But having said that, I am sure the ma~er fer LaPoile and myself would both agree ~~at in effect we are hearing ~et another statement with regard to the Auditor General and it is quite appropriate to proceed.

But at the same time, with respect to Your Honour, I suggest ~~at the

preamble to the statement pu~ i~ in the category of Answers to Questions from members. MR. SPEZ\KER: With respect to the point of order, i~ is probably not very clear at this point in time exactly what the han. minister is intending to do - as far as hon. members to my right are concerned. It is my understanding at least, that the ~on. minister was making a Ministerial State~ment but in his

preamble indicated that in making ~~e Ministerial Statement, he would be referring to some 5 11

Marc h 7, l9SO Tape 193 EC - 2 MR. SPEAI<ER ( S ill'lms) : of the questions asked yesterday by the hon. the member for iiindsor - Buchans (Mr. G. Flight). so in that respect, I would ask the hen. minister to continue with his Ministerial Statement. MR. C. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Using the information =ently supplied by the Department of Lqnds and Forests , the tax assessor issues ~ assessment notices and takes necessary steps for collecting the taxes.

I will not qo into detail on the procedures used by the tax assessor because t.'lat is und .er the jurisdiction of the Department of Finance and my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. .J. Collins) 1 has already answered these questions . All landholders of forest land had the opportunity of submitting Management Plans and applying for certificates of Managed L4nd Status since the proclamation of the Forest Land Act. Initially, · only pulp and paper companies availed of this opportunity. Most of the small landholders :hose to remain silent.

Since the Province of Newfoundland does not have a COIIlpulsory registration system for landholders, it is extremely difficult to identify individuals and organizations nolding relatively small areas of land but still more than 300 a=es. In the absence of any available legal mechanisms to identify the L!.ndholders, the department has struggled through various IN!ans to compile a list of known landholders which was supplied to the Department of Finance and has been reported upon by the Auditor General. 512

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 194 NM - 1 MR. POWER: The aepartment is continuing to identify additional landholders within legal means, but,as pointed out above, it is extremely difficult. However, I will also inform this hon. House that my department in consultation with the Department of Justice is presently reveiwing inadequacies of our land registration system with a view of recommending future improvements which in future would facilitate identification of landholders.

In light of the above description, ~- Speaker, the department is unable to confirm whether all the land­ holders of more than 300 acres have been identified or not. The landholders which were identified last year are subject to tax for each year since 1975. It is my understanding that the Department of Finance will take necessary steps to collect any arrears. The provisions of the act are not for a specific period of two years or five years as suggested by the han. member, These provisions apolied each year are independent.

A question was raised also as it relates to the report on whether the two pulp and paper companies were exempted from tax and whether the Forest r~nagement as practiced by these two companies is perfect. The pulp and paper companies are not exempt from any provision of the Forest Land Act. In fact, they are the first and foremost to come under the scrutiny of the department for application of this act. The two companies have been paying taxes since 1975. The Auditor General has acknowledged payments of 5805,062 by these companies last year. I would like to bring to the attention of this hon.

House that the ~eoartment has required the companies to submit Management Plans each year since the proclamation of this act. These plans were scrutinized by the department and found to have met at least the minimum standards of management necessary tc have these lands deemed and declared managed. My department is now vigorousl y pursuing to enforce more stringent timber utilization and standards which should result to better achieve the provincial ob jectives. 51 3

~arch 7, 1980 '!'ape No. 194 NM - 2 MR. POWER: I would like to state for the information of this hon. House that as a result of this department's insistence on better utilization and adherence of better management practices, Bowater Newfo'Ui:ldland Limited has decided to relinquish its control over 1.5 million acres in the Bay d'Espoir area permanently and almost one-half million acres of .it for at least a period of twenty years on the Northern Penin-Sula which is likely to be made a permanent or semi-permanent arrangement.

I will be ~ouncing the details of the reversion of these company held lands to the Crown in the next few weeks. I t_~st this statement will clarify the points raised by the Auditor General and the questions. And also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to identify the eleven holders of la.n:(l. in excess of 300 acres that have already been determined by our department. We have Ramsey and William Smallwood, who control 2,783 acres; l't"<.-HON. !1Eti!BI:R: Shocking. Absolutely shocking.

MR . ?Ot'iER : - William Pritchett - 2,022 acres; Jim .Thoms - 332 acres; r.ewellyn Reid - 471 acres; Mark Goose and Sons Limited - 1,561 acres; Cyril Gailand - 904 acres; International Grenfell Association - 2,447 acr -es; A Mr. Martin who has 876 acres; the New York, Newfoundland and London Telegraph Company which has in excess of 15,000 acres; and Marie E. Greene who has 418 acres; and the Roy<!-1 Trust Company, Administrator of the estate of Charles Fox Bennet:t - 1,140 acres. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 514

March 7,1980 Tape No. 195 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this is an unbelievable Ministerial Statement, unbelievable. This statement is an admission, Mr. Speaker, that after having a land act proclaimed, a ~~an~ M_-:nagement~Act .proc::_laimed for six ye_a;s. since l07d. t-h<> Department of Forestry and the Department of Finance have been unable to administer that act any more than if it had never been proclaimed. One has got to listen to what is said in the statement, Mr. Speaker.

"In light of the above discription the department is unable to confirm whether all landholders af more than 300 acres have been identified or not~' After six years, Mr. Speaker, having having a ':.."'-"cl ·:"-'-"'J"ament Tax Act proclaimed for six years-the purpose being for that act in the first place was to guarantee good larid forest management or to realize revenue- the minister has rtow got to stand up and tel], this House that after six years they have not been identified. Now Mr.

Speaker, everybody will remember the previous Minister of Forestry last year identified one, what he believed was in his interest 1 identified one of these land owners in excess of 300 acres. And we know what he did with it , Mr. Speaker. He played politics with it for six weeks but in the process it suddenly becomes clear that that was the only one he knew about and probably the only one he cared about. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: That kind of performance, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister has just admitted is an admission of inefficiency and ineptness in the Department of Forestry and the blame must be laid right at the feet of the minister and his predecessors. long statement. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a fairly He talks about arrears. After five years, Mr. 51 5

~arch 7,1980 Tape Na. 195 AB -2 ~R. :"LIGET : Speaker, a!ce r six yea rs non- collect ion of ar rears 1 the Min ister of Financ e (Or. Collins) says: ttis ~y unde rstan ding chat the Depar tme nt of Finance will cak e the neces sar y steps co collect any arrears~ A~cer six year s he will take the neces sar y seeps . Why ·-1ere che - steps not taken last year and the year befo re and the year befo re? Mr. Speake r, he goes on - here is che damning admisslon, ~r.

Sp eaker , in thi s statement; . he goes on to say , ta lk ing about the paper companies,"in fact that cbey are cbe !irsc and !ore most to come under the scrutiny of ch~s deparement for application of the ace , !'!le c•o~o companies have been paying taxes sinc e 197 5." No w no te chis , members of the hon. Bouse. "The Auditor General has acknowledged payments of $805,000 by che~~ ~ompanie s lase year." That means , Mr. Speaker,thac t\lere a::: 'ethe only c·..,o companies 1.:1 chis Province, because chat is the figure indicated by the Aud1cor Ge ner al chat: chi s depa rtmen t: collected last year .

So that ad~iSSLOO means that the only people, che only compar.ies in this Province wh o hold land ln access of JOO acreas chat paid the Land ~anaqement Tax Act last year we re the pape r companles. What abou~ ~he ~h~r ~ee n cha m~ni s ter )ust named? What a=e we doing about: it? ~be only t~o companies chat lived up to ~he ace 'ind 516

March 7, 1960 Tape No,l96 EL - l MR. G. FLIGHT: met ~~eir obligations under the act that is not in arrears that is not depriving the government of the revenue that that act was proclaimed to realize is Price and Bowaters. What is the Minister of Finance go- ing to do about that. r hope he gives those people as hard a time as he is going to give the buyers of the prefabricated homes ~~at did not pay their taxes. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. G. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, one more point, one last point on this.

Now ~'le minister says, "Oh, the poor Minister of Forestry who has got to deal with those two paper companies, .. " Price and Bowaters." He said ~hese ~lans~ Bowater's and Price's N plans-were scrutinized by the department and found to have met at least the minimum standards of management necessary to have these lands deemed " ~anaged 0 I presume he means deemed managed and therefore deemed net to be subject to the tax. Well, the minister should not talk about in his state~~nt· ~crutinizing the plans ~f these two companies. We know what the plans of chese two compar.ies have been for over =ifty years.

He should be talking about sending his people in. 1:ever mind the plans they submit. They are like any other companies. They submit what plans are in their better interest and what" they think they can get away with. SOME SON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. G. FLIGHT: \ve should be sending in, we should be sending the people from the department into the woods and looking at what.is going on and see if what they are actually doing is indeed com- pared to what they are actually saying. And I am afraid the minister will get a rude awakening. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the last point I want to make on this statement, this unreal,this unbelievable statement: Six yea~ ~nd the ~inister has got to stand up and tell this House that his predecessors have been doing nothing for six years. The general public has known it anyway. Now, he has got to admit it publicly. 51 7

:-~arch 7, 1980 MR. G. FLIGHT: Tape No. 196 EL - 2 Now, Mr. Speaker, he indicates that Bowaters is going to pass back MR. SPEAKER (Si!!mts) : Order, please! If I might call attention to the procedure for responses on ministerial statements: Aside from the fact that the member responding is entitled to ask explan- ations and make a few remarks and no debate is allowed, there is also the practice of the hen.

House that the member responding to a state­ ment may use approximately half the time used by the minister in pre­ senting his statement,and according to my calculations I believe the member has approached that point in time. If he is prepared to clue up in a matter of a few seconds, I will allow him to clue up. !'-R. G. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I cannot concur whether I have used half the time or not,Mr.

Speaker, but I have approached the end of theretort, and I will just say to the minister that I read here that Bowaters has relinquished control of at least 1.5 million and will relinquis~ control of half a million. ~ow, that could be for one of two reasons, Mr. Speaker; it could be for the purpose of avoiding the tax that would be applied under the Land Management Act and it would be interesting for the minister to send his people in on those when they are turned back and see what state of forest management that those 2,000,000 acres were sub- ject to ;;;·,is .past fifty years. And, Mr.

Speaker, I would also be in­ tereste.c i!'l the terl!'.s and conci tions that those lands were turned !::ad: to the Frovince under ar.d Ic.,_,ill bring that up later in the session, ar. Speaker. Thank you. S01-!E 30N , HE~IBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPS~~R (Simms): Order, please. If I may, before I recognize the han. the Minister of Education,further to clarify the point of order raised l:::y the hon. Member for LaPoile(S. ~eary)during the last few moments, there is provision in our ~"Il Standing Orders,- Standing Order 3l.(

a) which in part says, near the end, "provided also that the 1-1inister to whom a question is dir­ ected may take such oral question as notice to be answered orally at a 51 8

l-laroh 7, 1980 Tape ~o . 196 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Sil!llllS) : later sitting, but where any such res- erved question requires as its answers a lengthy statement, such state~ent shall be given under the ordinary daily routine proceed­ ing 'Statements by Ministers:H So there is provision there. The bon. the Minister of Education. MS. t. VERGE: Mr. s~aker, I wou1d like to ecument on and provide further clarification for the hon. mel!lbers of this Bo~e on items contained in the }l;udi tor Gene rill's Report for the fiscal year end --the 31st of March, 1979 relating to my department.

In his report, the AUditor General identifies three areas concerning my department which, in his opinion, should be brought to the attention of this Bouse. They are:- ( ll Accounts Receivable ~ Pupil/Teacher indentures: (ll) Grant to native schools made without legislative approval and otherWise irregular;

(111) Failur.e to submit post-secondary education final pro­ vi ·ncial returns promptly. On the first item , the pupil /teacher indentures, I would like to explain to the hon. members that in the 1930's and 40's, 51 9

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 197 DW - l MS. L. VERGE: when there was a critical short- age of qualified teachers in th~ Province,a programme was introduced to encourage students to enter the teaching pro­ fession, I would not be surprised if some members of this hon. House participated in this programme and therefore are totally familiar with it. The programme consisted of the provision by government of financial ~ssistance to students in return for a commitment in the form of a siqned indenture to pay back grants received by teaching one year for each $400 received.

Indentures entered into prior to 1971 stated that upon graduation from university the pupil/teacher •shall make all reasonable endeavours to ootain employment in an educational institution receiving financial aid from the Province of Newfoundland.' The indenture further stated that in case the pupil/teacher failed to perform any of the covenants contained therein,then the grant must be re-paid to the Minister of Education. It is important to note that the indenture did not stipulate that the pupil/teacher had to obtain employ- ment in an educational institution within a specific period of time after graduation.

The wording of the indenture created two problems as far as collection is concerned. a student can maintain that he or she made a reasonable First, endeavour to obtain employment in an educational institution but was unsuccessful and therefore fulfilled the conditions of the indenture.

And two, even though a pupil/teacher has graduated from university for ten or fifteen years,when pressured by the department to collect amounts owing he or she can reply that it is his or her intention to enter the teaching profession and because of the ambiguity of the indenture the department cannot legally insist that the amount outstanding be paid. 520

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 197 DW - 2 HS. L. VERGE: This is a problem the depart- ment is faced with in attempting to c~llect indentures entered into prior to 1972. Our collection efforts have been severely hampered due to the ammiguous terms of the pupil/ teacher indenture that was being used. The department has provided an allowance for doubtful accounts representing the full amount of the outstanding pupil/teacher indentures entered into before 1962. Our assets statement is, therefore, not over- stated.

We hesitate, however, to request Treasury Board approval to writ~ off such a large amount even though collection may be doubtful. In 1972, the indenture form was reworded to state that·a pupil/teacher will, not later than two years after termination of his or her studies, enter a contract of service relaing to teaching and faili~g to comply with this regulation, the pupil/teache~ must repay the grant to the minister. Collection of indentures since this revision in 1972 has not been a problem and these accounts are up to date.

The second item, 'A crrant for native schools made without legislative approoriation and otherwise irregular. ' The Auditor General states in his report that a payment of $50,000 was made to a school board without legislative appropriation and was otherwise irregular. After conferring wich officials in my department 1 I am satisfied that the payment referred to was a proper charge against vote 615-03-0l'6rants for Eskimo and Indian education.' ~onies contained in this vote are approved by a federal/provincial committee, a joint committee established to administer grants to native schools. 521

Xarch 7, 1980 Tape No. 197 ow - 3 ~s. L. VERGE: The grant approved and provided for in the 1978/79 Budget for the payment to the school board in question was $267,900. This amount included the expenditure being disputed by the Auditor General, The actual payment to the board in 1978/79 was $260,045.07 1 which again included the $50,000 amount. It is therefore clear that the total approved by the House was not exceeded and that the expenditure was properly accounted for. The other aspect questioned by the Auditor General was that the payment represented a capital expenditure which was paid out of current account. On this question my department was advised by 522

March 7, 1980 Tape 198 EC - 1 MS VERGE : the school board that the payment covered improvements to a two room school at Davis Inlet to make it compatible with a new extension which consisted of four additional classrooms and a gymnasium. The actual work consisted of repairs to floors, walls and the heating system, work which could be considered either current or capital, and because the expenditure was part of the approved $267,900, the department deemed it proper that it be paid out of current accounts.

The school board has been asked to provide the details of this expenditure to the Auditor General's Department. And the third and last item is :ailure to submit post -secondary ed ucat ion ,and !:inal provincial reeur:~.s promptly. The department agrees with the provincial auditors that there has been undue delay in the preparation of the final pos~-secondary educational provincial return for 1976- 1977, and I will ensure that the return is completed within the next few weeks.

I understand that most of the information with respect to this claim has already been audited by the Auditor General but that one institution is having some difficulty in preparing its retur:~. for audit. satisfactory to hen. members. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Bay de Verde. MR. F • .:<OWE: I trust that these explanations are The hen. the member for Trinity - Mr. Speaker, in the absence of my colleague ~~e spokesman for Education, ~~e member for Port au Port (Mr . J. Hodder) who is presently slaving away in his district, I would like to reply to the minister's state ment.

First of all, Sir, in connection wi~~ accounts receivable pupil/teacher indentures, we have a situation here where ~,e Auditor General had indicated to the government back in 1976 523

March 7 , 1980 Tape 198 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: that there was approximately $750,000 for accounts receivable under the pupil/teacher loans some four years ago, and it is only now that we are having a Ministerial Statement or any indication from the minister that something is going to be done about it. And it was done very subtly, Sir, by indicating that all this came about as a result of agreements made prior to 1971 which, of course, is a very significant year. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that if the Auditor General indicates in his report that the majority of these accounts have been outstanding for ten years or longer, thereby making their eventual collection very doubtful, I would recommend very strongly to the minister that she consider writing these things off totally. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. "E'. ROIIIE: Now, I would not want to be accused of saying that I am advocating throwing away approximately $750,000.

I am not advocating that the government throw that away. wnat I am suggesting is that if, in the opinion of an auditor, he is suggesting that these collections are very doubtful because they are over ten years old ~~at it is going to be more costly trying to collect ~~em than ~~e revenue that would be received as a result of the expenditures trying to get it to st~ off with. So I would recommend to ~~e minister, unfortunately, and because this has been ignored for such a long period of time, that it simply be written off entirely and take the professional advice of ~~e Auditor General in this particular matter.

Now, with respect, Sir, to the grant to native schools made wi~~out legislative approval and otherwise irregular, I am gettinq, quite frankly, Sir, sick and tired and nauseated by ministers now getting up daily making confessions and coming out with statements, 'After conferring with my officials, I am satisfied,' - 'I' am satisfied. 524

!darch 7, 1980 Tape No. 199 so - l ~. F. ROWE: Sir, it is not the minister who should be satisfied. Even if the minister has conferred with her officials the fact of the matter, Sir, is the Audi~or General's job is to audit, sample the expenditures, the estimates of this government by a sampling process only and to indicate, as he has in this case, that this expenditure was not approved by the House of Assembly or the committees that have now been established for it. In other words, the end does not justify the means in t.'lis particular case.

The fact of the matter is that still we have had an expenditure that was not approved by a committee or by this Bouse and that is clearly against the law. It is not as against the law as the point brought up by my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) the other day with respect to the convention and the polls, that was misappropriation of funds. MR. S • NEARY : would like (inaudible) . MR. F. ROWE: thing. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. !? • ROWE: If the Auditor General That is an entirely different Order, please!

So I would suggest that instead of trying to weasel out of these situations, that ministers instead of saying, ••oh, I am satisfied," just accept ~h.e responsibility that the money was spent for something that the House did not approve of in t.'le · first place. With respect to the last point, Mr.

Speaker, Failure to submit post-secondary educational final provincial returns oromptly, the minister, I will quote her here, "The department agrees with the provincial auditor that there has been undue delay in the preparation of the final post-secondarf educational provincial returns for 1976-77 and I will ensure that the return is completed within the next few weeks." Now, that is the kind of statement we like to hear from ministers. 525

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 199 SD - 2 MR. F. ROWE: "I will ensure that the return~is completed within the next few weeks." And, !ir, I can close off by saying here that we will be relentless, of course, in our attack if the minister, by the tilDe the estimates do roll around and the budget is brought down before the Souse, if in fact this has not been completed within the next few weeks.

But, may I just make a recommendation; do not try to weasel out- t.!1e Auditor General is a professional man, he gives advice to the government, he puts out a report - accept the responsibility and let us not have these long confessions here trying to weasel out or blame the situation on sanebody else • SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. SPEJ\n:R: MR. D. JAM IESON : Hear, hear. No further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, it has been so long I almost forqot what I was going to ask. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins). The minister has made a couple of statements to ~~e media and otherwise with regard to the date for bringing down the budget. Can he be more precise now or can he give us some indication as to when the budget might be presented? !m. S. NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: DR. J. COLLINS: Do not hold yeur breath, that is all. The bon. Minister of Pinance. Mr. Speaker, the officials of the Treasury Board, the members of the Treasury Board, of!icials in my department and myself, we have been labouring, I think fruitfully and rather manfully,over the last month or so.

We are expecting that we will be able to get the budget in shape this month or early next month. We are aiming for this month· r can not be more pEecise to the date. A number of things have to fall into place 526

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 199 so - 3 OR. J. CX>LLINS: before we will be in a position to actually

schedule the actual days that remain to the bringing down of the budget but things az:e proceeding pretty well accoz:di.ng to plan and - are hopeful it will be this IIICnth. MR. 0. JAMIESON: A supplementary I Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAJER. (Sillllls) : LeadK of the Opposition. MR. 0. JAMIESON: A supplementazy I the hen. the With regard to the things that have to, as the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) said, ~fall into place~, I hope that is not - OR.. J. CX>LLINS: That is juat a phrase. !IR.. 0. JAMrESOH: - a foz:ecast of things to come. 527

March 7, 19130 Tape No. 200 NM - l MR. JAMIESON: Are some of those related to negotiations with tPe various federal departments with regard to potential expenditures during the l98D-8l year or is the minister now in possession of, and does he have most of the indications of what is necessary in other words for him to formulate a reasonable forecast? MR· SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, throughout the year we are in com:munication with the Department o£ Finap.ce in Ottawa and we have projections from them. These projections are updated all the time.

They get more precise as the year goes by. I think that we will possibly get one further updating before the budget is likely to come down,but even if we did not have that I think we are in possession of sufficient facts from that point of view to go ahead. That should not hold us up. MR. JAMIESON: MR .. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A final supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. Leader I realize that it is - I will not say it is simple but it is reasonably easy to get a forecast on statutory items, things of that kind.

What I wondered about was whether or not,for instance 1 in the budget making process, and I do not diminish the complexity of it 7 whether there was anything with regard to ,for example, DREE agreements or various other things of that nature which might affect the ministar's anticipations with regard to levels of expenditure or employment, things of that kind; Are there many things of that nature that are outstanding as of the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there are ·a number of DREE agre~ts outstanding at the present time .

I am not myself, as Minister of Finance, directly involved in the negotiations for those. 528

March 7, 1980 Tape ::>ro. 200 NM - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: The more these negotiations are concluded, the earlier they are concluded and the more precisely they are con­ cluded,the better from our point of view. But I suspect that there will be some of the negotiations still ongoing at the time the budget will come down and we will put into the budget any conclusions of negotiations that are with us at that time. But I do not think that that again will affect the date of the bringing down of the budget. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. F. ROWE: The hen. mernbe~ for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries arising out of his Ministerial Statement dated March 3rd. First of all, Sir, could the minister indicate to the House exactlyhow many- well 1 first of all he indicated that there were sixty-seven loans approved in the amount of $1.9 million, Therefore ,could the minister indicate how many applications have been rejected outright and how many still remain for further consideration for this fiscal year and what funds are readily available for the c9nsideration of these remaining applications? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for asking the question. I was intending to give the information in the time slot today for answering oral questions, notice was given before. The situation is.in the Fall of 1979 the government allocated to the loan board the sum of $4.7 million. Now sixty-seven loans as were announced last week in my Ministerial Statement, These came to Sl.9 million, That means we have now being processed applications up to the value until the end of March of $2.8 million.

I mention that the sixty-seven loans that were announced were =or twenty-two boats, new and used, part of the ongoing boat building programme. There are nine more boats that will be contracted within the next number of days as a result of approved applications in the forty-five to sixty-five foot range 1 and the remaining funds will be used to process applications and approve 529

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 200 MR. :-!ORGAN: applications and make loans for these cases where there are applications for fishing gear and engines, in other words hardship cases, up 530 NM - 3

March 7,1980 Tape No. 201 A!i-1 MR. NORGAN: un~il ~he end of this !isca l year, un~il t~e new fund s are allocated in next year 's budget . So these applications. the total on file in the .r;,.oan Board as of the end of Janua ry, the total num~~: is 925 ap plica tio ns. Ov er the lase few weeks 160 of th es e have ~e en screened and qual ified by means of making co ntact with the fis hermen, getting ~o r e inf ormatio n, etc., and these are the applications being dealt with now . The fu rt her 765 rema~ning are now being dealt with.

In other words ,w e are sc reen ing out the hard ship cases, the on es we kno w are impo rta nt to get processed as soon as po ssi ble to gee the fishermen mo ving before the co mmencement of the fishing seas on, co ge t these applications processed now, as many as possible out o= the 765 re maining. In point~ng ou t the tot al number, ch at is the total number of applications received ,! wa nt to emphas~ze th at many of thes e will not qualify. They have to be screened out and many of thes e will not qualify for loan s. '!'hat,I thin!t 1 is obvious to all conce rned : All will not qualify.

But the to tal number of applicat~ons .9l5; 160 processed the }~s: Eew ~eeks and the re main ing amount of 765 being proces sed now .. We wil l ca rrv on with the interi~ funcis ana of cou rse chen ~he new f ~nds come on st ~ eam ~n the new bu dget. The negociat~ons w~th ~he banks ha'le bee n completed as of the las~ !ew days. ~R . :.R OWE: Is ~h~~ a ~lnisterial sca~e~en~ or ans we ring quest ~on s ? MR. MORGAN : Well , :-lr. Speaker, if so desi red : ca n reply to the questions asked by the same hon . gentleQan two days ago and when che tlme - 1'\R.F .R OWE: ~R . S?EAXER {S:~~S): Mr.

Speaker, the only reason ! ­ The hon. member !or T~lnity - :aay de Verd e_ A SU?plementary quescion . 531

March 7,1980 Tape No . 201 AR-2 MR. F.ROWE: Yes, Mr. Spea ker, a supplementary question. The only reas on ! jumped in ~here was because the miniseer bad not answered one of the ques~ions that I had asked and was about to ans wer a question th at I was going to ask.

So if the minister ~ould be kind enough to indicaee, since he has indic ated now that lGO have qualified , lGO applications have quali~ied and there are 7G5 remaining, could the minister indicate what :~ndinq is available for ~hese 160 appl~ca~ions tha~ qualify and ~he 765 that remain ~o be considered? ~nd then he could go ahead and answer the question, What is the s~atus with respect to the nego~iations presumably ongoing with the chartered banks to switch the funding proc ess in a shared sort of way between the cha rtered banks of this ?rovince and the ~isheries Loan Bcard,and will the ~nterese rate change signif ica ntly if at all?

MR. FLIGHT: ~R. S?EAKER (Simms ): ~1R. ~ORGAN: 5e cannot answer that . The hon. M~n~ster oE fisheries. ~r. Speaker, I am beginning to th~nk that the questions are longer than the answers. '1R . f . ROWE: It is not worth a point of o!:der. )!R.:.IORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am sure ~hat che =ishermen down on the Great Norchern ?~n~nsul~ would not like that kind of a cc mm en~ =rom their MHA,because iE chey do not wane lnformation to take to the fis hermen and :he :ishermen's problems ! will not give che informatlon . ~R.ROB<:RTS: ~ ?Oin~ or orCer. MR.

S?EAKER (S~mms ): A point of order, the hon . member for the Sc=ait of Belle !sle. 532

March 7,1980 Tape No. 201 AH-3 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I doubt if the han. gentleman knows where the Great Northern Peninsula is given his track record,but I do think it is improper of him , Sir, to cast AaPersions. upon members or upon the people of this Province. Accordingly I would direct that the han. gentleman be asked either to contain himself o~ if he cannot contain himself, to try and direct his answers to the questions which he is asked. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) To the point of order, co the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, not a point of order but a point of explanation, and I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, an inadequate point of explanation at that. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I thank han. members for their contribution to the debate on the point of order, but I do not believe there is a point of order. I have asked the han. Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) if he wishes to continue to respond to the q~estion to do so. MR. MORGAN: I am s~re, Mr. Speaker, that the fishermen I talked to in White Say last week would want the information.

I was down there last week ~alking to the fishermen in the White Bay area,and the Great Northern Peninsula fishermen. Mr. Speaker, the information to be passed on throucr~ • the han. gentleman who asked the question for the sake of these fishermen in particular, that negotiations with the chartered banks have been completed.

We are now in the process of drafting an agreement- when I say•we~I mean the government throught the Department of Justice-~o be signed in the next number of days with the chartered banks and the terms and conditions of that agreement have now been ratified with the Fishermen's Union who speak on 533

March 7, 1980 Tape 202 EC - 1 !1R. J. MORGA.'<: behalf of the fishermen in the Province. I have met wi t..'"l them and discussed the guidelines or regulationswhich will be included in t..~e agreement with the chartered banks and they have agreed with these terms and conditions. And I will be announcing to the Hcuse of Assembly, informing the House, sometime between now and the end of March at the latest, before t..'le next fiscal year, the details of that agreement and, of course, tabling the agreement, if necessary, in the House of Assembly.

We are convinced it is a good thing and to the benefit of all fishermen in the Province, and the report that is now being compiled as well in connection with the review of the operations of the Loan Board is now being done, is now being compiled and as a result of that report and its recommendations, I will then, as t..'le minister responsible for the Board, be establishing guidelines and policy directions under which t..'le Board will operate in t..~e future. I want to stress one thing in connection with t..'le Eoard's operation, that tha Board will have representation from fishermen. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear!

MR. J. MORGAN: It will not have the same fishermen who served the last couple of years and whose term expired in July, 1979, bythe way. It will not be necessarily the same fishermen, but what I am looking at, Mr. Speaker, is having fishermen, maybe, from Bay de Verde area, for example, for a six month period - or a fisherman - from parts of t..'"le Nort..'least Coast for a further six month period, there always being fishermen on the Board but never the same fishermen year-in and year-aut.

And I think it will give the fishermen around the Province a better chance to know the operations of the Board and the good things the Board will be doing for the fishermen of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ I :1R. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. ~~. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, the han. the member fo~ Trinity - Bay de Verde~ 534

March 7, 1980 Tape 202 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: Sir, again ~~e minister has succeeded in not answering my original supplementary and I have in answer a supplementary I was about to ask· So there is a pretty good system going here. Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. Would the minister accept a recommendation - I do not know if it has been put to him by any of his officials or the union or the fishermen - MR. G. FLIGHT: No, the hen. House Leader would not let him. MR. F. ROWE: -I am about to put it to him now.

Would the minister accept the recommendation that for those fishermen who could not wait to have their applications approved- in other words, the fishing season was coming down upon them, they needed engines for their boats, etc. -who have gone ahead and borrowed privately through the banks for fishing gear, and borrowed for ~~e purpose of purchasing or building boats or what have you, Will the mechanism be set up to transfer these fishermen back into the Fisheries Soard - chartered bank loan arrangement at the same interest that would be set up for these fishermen under the newly formulated Fisheries Loan Board - chartered bank situation?

Because obviously, they are paying very high interest rates now and I ·~uld like some indication from the minister of what these interest rates are likely to be when the new set-up is initiated. ~- SPEAKER (Simms) l1R. J. :.!ORGAN: The hon • the l1ini s ter of F ishe ri es • Mr. Chairman, I hope that when I am explaining this new policy to ~~e fishermen,~,ey wi11 not be so complex as the question ~~at was asked a minute ago.Because it is not really ~,at complex.

But the question I ~~nk you are asking is whether or not loans already processed by the chartered banks wich the fishermen and charging, of course, ~~e regular bank interest rates to fishermen - whether or not ~,ese loans can ~e also included under the new programme of the Loan Board working in co-ordination with the chartered b~~s. That is one of ~~e points of negotiation and I would rather not give the information on ~,e results of our negotiation until I give all the details when I make a Ministerial Statement on ~,e final agreement reached. 535

March 7, 1980 Tape 202 EC - 3 MR. F. ROWE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MEt. SPEJ\KE .R (Simms) : I already indicated a final supplementary, but seeing nobody else standing, one further supplementary. Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. the member for Trinity - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sir, I would like to get into something that is probably not as serious but that has probably been very daJnaqinq and embarrassing to certain individuals in this Province and, I think, should be settled today.

So the fact of the matter is that a year or so ago, I cannot pin down the exact date, a number of fishermen were appointed to the Fisheries Loan Board. They were appointed and they inherited a mess, I think that is universally known. They were left in the dark, Sir, anc:i they were by-passed in certain instances wi t.'l respect to the approval of certain applications. MR. MARSHALL: MR .• FLIGHT: MR. F. ROWE: MR. W. Ml'-RSEALL: M..".. 5PEA..;c:;R: o: c:he Council. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. No leadership by the iiiinister. Here we qo now! Here we qo! Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

A point of order, the ho .n. the President SOl€ i'lON . ME.'IBE ::tS : Oh , oh! !o!R. S?::.;l<E R: Order, please! !olR. . :; • ~!ARSF.ALL: The purpos .e of the Question Period is to ask questions, Mr. Speaker. I refer to Beauchesne, Page 129: "The purpose of a question is to obtain infonnation and not to supply it to the House." 536

}!arch 7, 1980 Tape No. 203 MR. MARSHALL: Anti it says, ":.:n making a question, observations which might lead to debate cannot be regarded as coming within the proper limits of a question." Now '"hat the hon. gentleman is doing is he is making certain statements and political statements with respect to his impression of the Jo~n ~ard and this is not the time. MR. FLIG!i~: This is the question period. NM - 1 MR.

MARSHALL: The han. gentleman can make observations with respect to the operation of the Board. if he wishes to, in Throne speech debates or budget debates, and there are plenty of opportunity in this House. But in ~~e Question Period, Mr. Speaker, he is transgressing his - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): To the point of order, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. If I might, Mr. Speaker, my learned friend has read the Beauchesne correctly but I do not think he has applied it correctly, or interpreted it properly in the facts of this situation.

All that my friend from Trinity - Bay de verde (Mr. F. Rowe) is doing is trying to give the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) enough information. I must say it is a difficult task to get to the point where the minister can give an intelligible answer and surely it is parliamentary, Mr. Speaker, for a member in asking a question to supply simply enough information to try to lead the minister to a point where we can get a coherent and an intelligible, if not a complete reply. And that is all that is being done.

Debating of the Loan Board, Sir; we would dearly love to debate the Loan Soard and as soon as the government has the proper intestinal fortitutde to put the bills on the Order Paper we will proceed with it, Sir, yes. SOME HON. :-!EMBERS : Hear, hear! 537

!-larch 7, 1980 Tape No. 203 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): To the point of order, then. The Standing Orders. obviously,are quite clear as well with respect to asking questions. Standing Order 31 (c), "In putting any oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be necessary to explain the same; and in answering such question, the Kinister is not to debate the matter to which it refers." So a question must not give rise to debate.

I would suggest that maybe the han. member is beginning to drift in that area just a little bit and ask him to continue with his question. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, being the spokesman for Fisheries I was hoping I would have been given some latitude for drifting. Mr. Speaker, let me just try to - I am really trying tc provide the minister with the information so that he can,in fact 1answer the question. There were a number of fishermen appointed to the Fisheires Loan Board, !hey inherited a mess. Every­ body knows that. Everybody acknowledges that.

They were left in the dark but what is more serious, .now we have le~ed that they are going to be replaced 1or they have been replaced or fired uncerimoniously. lve do not know. The point is this, that while they were still members of that Board they were blamed by the government for the mess the Fisheries Loan Board was in. That is a fact. MR. I'.ARSHALL: MR. F. ROWE MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROw"E : MR. SPEAKER: Council. M.!l.. 1-'.ARSHALL: A point of order. I ask the minister, is that a fact? A point of order. Order, please! Are the fishermen responsible for the mess? A point of order, the han.

President of the This takes on a little bit more serious vein. I rose on a point of order and Your Honour in effect indicated that the han. gentleman was getting into the realm of debate and directed 538

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 203 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: the hon. gentleman to put his question . The hen. gentleman then gets on his fee7after Your Honour has made the ruling and proceeds in exactly the same vein as he did before. Now .the orders of the House have to be upheld and Your Honour's ruling has to be upheld and I would submit that the hen. gentleman is not only just breaching the orders of the House but is ~eally in a breach of privilege of the House persisting in flagrant violation of Your Honour's ruling. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS : To the point of order.

The hen. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, I must say that my learned friend opposite has not only put the cart before the horse, he has taken the cart further than the horse could ever carry it. MR. JAMIESON: SOME HON. MEMBERS : He turned the horse around. Oh, oh: !ffi. ROBERTS: My learned friend- well I will not say that, that is probably not parliamentary. I will let the thought speak for itself. My learned friend and horses bring certain analogies tc mind. I do say that my friend from Trinity - Bay de Verde is,r do not think,.asking an improper question, he is asking one that I ~~sure the gentleman from St.

John's East (~x. Marshall) would just as soon were not asked. But he is not going into debate, he is simply supplying information to enable the question to be answered properly. And as for the insinuation, or the statement, whatever it was, that my friend from Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) is breaching the privileges of the House, that 1Sir. I think 1is most unwarranted and I would reject that out of hand, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: well, with respect to the point of order I guess there is not much point in me repeating what I said about two ~nutes ago but I think the same thing applies.

I think the question has now been asked so if the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. ~organ) - 539

l1arch 7, 1980 MR. MORGAN: Y,R. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MORG/1_111: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 203 (Inaudible) question. I beg vour pardon? The question (inaudible). A point of order. NM - 4 I am sorry. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. 540

~larch 7, 1 980 Tape No . 204 Dt-1 - 1 ~~~ . SP!!:AXE~ (Simms): The questi on has not be en ask ed ! take it . MR. J. ~IORG-'1-N : The kind of questio n that w as asked, ~\r. Speaker (in audible) )!R . SPEAKER : I would therefor,e havi! to dire,ct the hon . ~e~~er !or Trinity - Bay d e V ~ rde (M r. Rowe ) to ask hi s ques~ion . 1·1R . ? . ltOWE : That is precisely the point .

In view of the fact , Sir, that these fishermen have now been removed or will be rotated out of office Under the cloud which they now fall,will the minister indicate to this House who or what area of the Department of Fisheries is responsible for the mess that the Fisheries Loan Board finds itself in at the present time? !'IR . S?!::i'>l(:"' R: The hon . ~ini~te r of Fisheries. :·!R . J , MORG<\N: : tr .

Speake.?:, la st •.,ree :-: a numbe r of fis ne r­ me·n f r om Trinity - aay de '1~rde were in my office, i n fact, complimenting the Departm e nt of Fishe r ies for ~he loans th ey had app rov9 d from the Loan Scare - SOX:: ~ON . ~EMBE RS : Hear, hear ~ ~~. J. ~ORGAN: T~ey did not see the Fisheries Loan 3oarc in a mess, they were quite pleased th a ~ t he governmen~ S?enc S24 million on the 4oan Board this ? a st year. SOHP ~OM. M::~BE~S: He ar , ~ ea~: ~!R • .J. ~ORG A N : And, Mr . Speaker, to make :he answer zrief , the fishe rm en who we re on the Bo ar: in the past . ~he i r te r ~s expired July 1979 .

I did no~ know the fi s hernen perso nally . I hac a call from one of ;;he m a : ew cays aa·o 'iJhO incicated he wa; willing to serv~ again on the 3o ar d . An c r told him, 'Sur e, ~aybe some ~ime i n the fu tur e aaain you will se r ve o.~ the 9oa r e'. There has been nobccy ! i r ec :rom 541

aarci: 7, 1980 Tape N'o. 204 DW - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: the Board from the fishermen's level or fishermen's representatives on the Board. And I am looking forward to having fishermen from di~fe:ent parts of the Province 1 as I mentioned earlier, serve on the Board and do a good job for the soard ~n the future. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): New question, the hon. member for Fog-o. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the question is for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and it relates to the Fisheries Loan Board and the company known as Hamilton Sound Marine a shipyard in Noggin Cove.

As the minister is aware, but perhaps all members of the House are not 1 the company ceased operations in October with some five or six boats left unfinished and some $5,463 owing to workers. I might add that the owner is about to lose everything that he possesses and the fishermen who ori­ ginally contracted for the boats have been left for some seven to nine months. The cost of the boats has gone I understand 1 from $570,000 in the original contract to $960,000 now and the difference has to be borne by the Public Treasury.

So I would ask the minister, on behalf of the fishermen and the men who are owed funds fram that venture 1 what the current situation is with Hamilton Sound Marine? MR. SPEAKER. (Simms): ~R. J. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. well, Sir, Hamilton Sound Marine Limited Shipyard in Noggin Cove in Fogo district - the unfortunate case there in that shipyard was not the iault of the Loan Board or the fault of anybody else.

The fault I guess, was unfortunate on the basis that the bids made by the shipyard on the boats to be built, a total of six, they were maybe too low and in the Fall of 1979 the ship­ yard concerned found itself in financial difficulty 542

March 7, 1980 ~!R. J . ~\ORGA~: ceased on these boats. Tape No. 204 ow - 3 to the point that all work A total of five were then under construction in the shipyard. When it was brought to my attention, when I took over the portfolio, I immediately in finding the situation as it was, with five boats being built and not knowing what was going to happen to the boats and how they were left sitting in a shipyard with no work being done on the~. I got working on the situation and brought it to my coll,.eagues in Cabinet.

We agreed as a gov 'ernmen1;: to arrange for the calling of tenders to complete the construction of these five vessels that were sitting there partially constructed in the Hamilton Sound Marine :O:.imited Shipyard. The tenders were called and bids received from, I think, a total of five shipyards in the Province, the lowest bid coming from Burry's Marine in Glovertown.

Then a contract was awarded to Burry's Marine in Glovertown to the value of 5792,000, total value, to complete the five vessels on the condition that Burry would take the five vessels, partially constructed , from the Hamilton Sound Shipyard in Noggin Cove, transport them to the shipyard in Glovertown and complete them there. that ~ontract has been awarded and Burry 543 Now,

March 7, 1980 Tape No.205 EL - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: is now in the process of carrying out the terms and conditions of his contract. The pro­ blem still remains with the financial difficulty of the shipyard at Noggin Cove. I have met with the principals of the company on at least four different occasions, four or five, and also including the officials of the Department of Fisheries 1 and there is very little we can do.

It is a financial problem between the banks on one hand and the shipyard as a company on the other, and our obligaticn,as a department and a loan board: was to make sure the vessels were com­ pleted, under a contract awarded by the Loan Board for the fishermen. So, ~~e financial difficulty that the shipyard is finding itself in, unfortunately, and I have gone to the Department of Justice on this to check cut all the legalities of it, that unfortunately we can not, we cannot do anything further for Hamilton Sound Shipyard.

It is a matter between their creditors and the shipyard and the opinion from Justice is that we cannot do anYthing further in the Department of Fisheries. Unfortunately, we cannot do anything further. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : from Fogo. MR. B. TULK: A supplementary, the hen. the merr~er Mr. Speaker, on that situation I am under the impression that the minister, this Fall or this Winter, on a fishermen's broadcast was quoted as saying that Hamilton Sound Marine would indeed go back tc work. Now, whether that is the case or not, I do not know.

The truth of the matter is ~~at the Fisheries Loan Board knew that those contracts were below what that boat could be built for, so I want the minister to get up and tell this house, if, indeea 1 he feels thac: t~e Fisheries Loan Board mismanaged this sit- uation, •,;hich has now cost the fishermen, per naps, this Sut:mter is fishJ.ng; nas causeci a situation ·.,-cere men are owed fu:r..ds and cannot get thell'_. and if1 indeed 1 the Fisheries Loan Board should in some way be held re­ sponsible for that mess~ ~!R. SPEti.KER (Sirruns) : ~!R.

J. ~!ORG.i'll : The han. the ~inister of Fisheries I thou9ht I made it quite clear that 544

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 205 EL - 2 MR. J. MORG.!IN: it is not a problem of the Fisheries Loan Board. The shipyard bid on these vessels, they bid low, the off­ icials, the appraisers of the Loan Board told the shipyard that they had bid low, but still the company was willinq to accept the con­ t.racts. They wanted to get the contracts so they took the five vessel:s. In fact, they took six initially, but the five vessels that were left there, they had these in their contract. They knew they had bid low on the tenders.

The Loan Board's appraisers told the~ their bid was low in comparison to other shiP.yards, but still the shipyard was will­ ing to accept the contracts. So , based on that there was no further responsibility on the Loan Board. Now, unfortunately, the Loan Board was correct in its advice to the shipyard not to take these contracts on that kind of a bid, but they did and then in the Fall of '79 they found that the Loan Board was correct in its advice to their ..

Now, my comment the hon. gentleman re­ ferred to was on the Fishermen's Ereadcast, and I said then that I was hoping that the matter of the financial difficulty of the shipyard could be resolved so that again they could get involved in bidding, sometime down the road; in bidding on boats we are now calling tenders for, for example, a twenty boat program. But, there was no responsibility beyond what was carried out; the Loan Board giving opinions , giving· advice.

And it was not the fault of the Loan Board that the tender had to be called again, it was the fault of the shipyard in Noggin Cove going, I cannot say bankrupt, because they have not really gone bankrupt, but they do ~ave a serious financial difficulty. MR. ,SPEAKER (Simms) : We have time for one final supplement- ary. The hon. the member from Fogo. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister has admitted that the Fisheries Loan Board knew that those contracts were too low. 545

Maxch 7 , 1980 Tape No . 205 EL - 3 MR. B TULK: I ask him a question and I ask him to address hi=self to the question of whether the Fisheries Loan Board did indeed have to sign that contract. Did they have to sign any con­ tracts with Hamilton Sound Marine, and if his answer is that they did not, would he then attempt to see that the situation is clarified to the benefit of the fishermen and the workers? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. J. MORGAN: 'rhe hon. the !'.inister of Fisheries Mr.

Speaker, I want tD explain again in simple te:rllll;; the fact is that when tenders were called a number of bids were received for these six vessels in­ itially . Hamil ton Sound was the lowest of the bids recei vee.. Now, Hamil ton Sound was told then, "LOok gentleman, your bid is really low, !OU are biddinq far below what we feel, yoy. can build these boats for." But it was Hamilton Sound who was persistent and determined to qet the contract. They wanted to get that contract knowing, at the same time, their bids were low in comparison with other bids from other shipyards.

So, the responsibility was with the shipyard in saying no after gettinq t."'.e opinion and advice from the LOan Board. The Loan Board, in dis­ cussinq it in detail -I understand that officials went 546

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 206 so - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: down from the Loan Board at the time, to Noqgin Cove 1 and they saw the shipyard and saw what they were doing, got an appraisal of their voork. crew, etc:. and the equipment that they had there to work with and again advised them that they fe~t the bids were low bat Hamilton Sound was determined and pressed forth to signing the c:cntrac:t with them. MR. SP!!!An:R: (Simms) MR. J. MORGAN: Order, please! So it was their responsibility at the time to say 1 no, they did net want the contract. MR. SP!!!An:R: Order, please! Time for Oral Questions has expired. MR.

SPEAKER: Recreation and Culture. MR. R. OAWE: NOTICES OF MOTION The hon. Minister of Tourism, Mr. Speaker, I give notice that 'I will on tomorrow ask. leave to introdUce a bill entitled, "An Ac:t To Aaend The Historic: Objects, Sites .And Records Act, 1973". MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry Advisory Board Act, 1975". MR. SPEAKER: HS. L. VERGE: The hen. Minister of Education. Mr.

Spealter, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University Act", and another bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Bay St. George Community College Act 11 • MR. SPEAJ(ER: MR. W. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Spealter, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act, 1975", 547

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 206 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MRS. H. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill entitled, "An Act To Repeal The Income Tax Discounters Act". MR. H. YOUNG: we are going to embalm only the dead now. Ask them if we can embalm the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hen. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill entitled, "An Act To Amend The District Court Act, 1976". ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: Order 1, Address in Reply. The hon. member for St. John's West . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. H. BARRETT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was concluding my remarks yesterday in reference to some of the difficulties heing experienced in my own district of St. John's West and in the city of St. John's in particular and fer a few moments I would like to continue in that particular vein.

And I think I would be remiss if I did net take issue with some of the remarks that have recently been made concerning conditions in this city which are causing difficulties to our citizens because of the poor weather conditions. I feel that I must speak out in defence of the City Council on this issue. I do not feel that they are deserving of the criticism mounted against them recently - neither the elected officials nor the municipal workers.

I commend their efforts during these past weeks and feel ~~ey responded admirably to the enormous burden placed upon manpower and machines in dealing with ~~is continuing snow problem. It is all well and good, Mr. Speaker, to criticize, hut just reflect for a moment on the weather conditions that have affected us this past Winter. Every part of this Province is having difficulty in responding. 548

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 206 SD - 3 MR. H. BARRE'l"r: This city has added eo:asiderably to the number of streets to be ~~~aintained , to the number of residents to be helped and is struc;rc;rlinq with the increased ccnqestion that ccmes from a qrowinq c011111unity. I feel the administration and municipal employees of St. John' s a.re as cqable and as competent as in any other city in Easte:m, if DOt indeed, in all of Canada. I notice that the member for Bonavista North (Mr.

St:irlinq) has net been quick to support the petition recently presented in this Rouse by one of his eolleaques in criticiSIII of the City of St. John's. He knows the dif~iculties in municipal administration and has no doubt the good sense and judqement not to be critical 1 especially when one coD$iders the present circumstance$. Additional services cost more money.

This ~ity 1 as with others, is always in need of additional revenue to provide all of the services ccntinually in demand. ontortunately 1 those who shout the loudest for service,are not always ready to accept increased taxes to pay for the additional wages, to pay for the additional cost of new equipment, and to pay for the maintenance of this equipment necessary to respond to these adverse conditions. 549

March 7,1980 Tape No. 207 AH-1 !-!R. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, if I might,I would like to return to the thrust of the Throne Speech debate and let me also commend. in this regard, this government on its position that has so forcefully been expressed ~s it relates to controls over the Northern cod stock. This is truly an example of the decisiveness and the lengths to which this government is prepared to go in ensuring that the interests and the resources of the people of this Province are protected and developed firstly for them. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRETT: This issue probably stands out over all else as it singly affects more Newfoundlanders today than any other issue. This government's awareness of this has been strongly expressed in this Speech from the Throne, and all of us 1 I am sure 1 will have no difficulty in supporting this philosophy. Tangible evidence of government's attention to this most important resource is very much in evidence today. Great emphasis has been stressed in upgrading facilities, in renewing, in replacin~, and adding to the inshore fishing fleet.

And probably more important.this government has been giving those Newfoundlancers engaged in the fishing industry the respect for their profession and for themselves that for so many years was lacking. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. BARRETT: This government has brought on this attitude, this self respect. This government is showing the fishermen of this Province that theirs is an important place in our society today, that they as individuals are making a meaningful and substantial contribution to this Province.

The other major thrust of the speech deserving of comment would certainly be the intention of this government to make every effort to recapture some of the hydro power that is presently being funnelled off into 550

March 7,1980 Tape No. 207 AH-2 !4R. BARRETT: Quebec for export, and as well this government's intention to pursue every possible angle to obtain a more equitable return an the sale of its hydra power. Same of us may,and have 1 expressed great concern aver the way the Upper Churchill power contracts with HYdro Quebec were originally drafted and this is probably an example of the attitude of the government of that day in its approach towards development of our natural resources. We must remember, however, that economic conditions were much different then than they are now.

The rapid escalation that presently exists in costs of goods and services was not nearly as high as it is today and in all probability the agreement that was reached at that time was the best that was available - SOME SON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRETT: - and thought by those making the deal to be iri Newfoundland~ best interest We must now strive, however, to try and correct the inequities that have resulted which will enable us to have direct access to more of our own resources and to receive a far more realistic return based on today's values for that part of the resource not required for our own provincial consumption. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR.

BARRETT: With those thoughts in mind let me again reflect on matters relating to our offshore oil and gas resources and ask you to compare this with the difficulties this Province is now faced with because of the short-sightedness or the inexperience or the lack of knowledge when the Upper Churchill hydro project was first negotiated.

How important it is that we remember this now that we are confronted with having to again take a stand on behalf of the Newfoundland people, to again protect their-heritage and to make sure that the people of this Province are the ones that benefit most from this new found resource - SOME HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 551

~arch 7,1980 Tape No . 2Q7 AB -3 MR. BARRETT: - and not, Mr. Speaker, the people from other provinces of Canada or other parts of the world in the first instance. Certainly the people of Mainland Canada should rec~ive benefits. The people of Mainland Canada will receive benefits from .offshore oil and gas off Newfoundland. No one on this side of the House has ever suggested otherwise. What we are saying is that we own this resource. We are saying"No way" to the Ma .inland Liberal policy on this issue. "No way" to again subjecting ourselves to Ottawa handouts.

Let us raise one unified voice to Ottawa and to the Canadian people at large that the ownership of this resource is not in question. 552

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 208 NM - 1 MR . 3Aru!.Y : Right. MR. BARRETT: - it is not in doubt, but it is a rightful heritage of the people of this Province and the people of this Province must be the chief beneficiaries of it. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. Let us not try to shade the issues. There is but one single issue at stake here and that is the owner­ ship of the offshore resource. SOME HON. MEMBERs : 1'!.'<. SARRE'l"I': MR. ~OMS: MR. BARRETT: Hear, hear! Everything else is secondary. Who wrote this (inaudib1e) speech? Controls come later. Development can come later.

Social impact evaluations can come later. Everything else is secondary. What is paramount is what each of us must be prepared to do to stand up and be counted. And tpere is no doubt in my mind that we must be counted upon not to betray the trust or the confidence, or the heritage of the people of this Province, but be counted upon to say loudly and clearly, Mr. Speaker, that the ownership of the offshore resources without question is the jurisdiction of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR . sn:A . .:a::a cauctl : Selle I sle . ~!R . ROBERT S : Thank you. Hear, hear! The hon. member for the strait of Mr.

Speaker, under the new rules which the House .adopted in the last session 1 and which I think by and large have worked very, very well- I regret the member for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett) is going to go because I will take just a second or two to demolish his argument c?mpletely if he wants to stay for that pleasure. But I suspect since he did no~ understand his speech, he might not understand my reply. But I wanted to say that I have only half an hour, the same as any other member. Now that is both a benefit 553

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 208 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: and a handicap. I think the experience of this past session has shown that by and large the shorter the speeches the better they are. And it is certainly true that if one takes the time to prepare one can often say more effectively in a shorter time than in a longer time. That is the benefit. The handicap is quite simply that I will be able to deal only with a very few of the topics that arise out of the Throne Speech 1and I shall deal with those. But there are many others that I think should be dealt with. Perhaps the answer to that is to pu~ down some amendments.

MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I am having some trouble hearing the han. gentleman speak today. There is so much noise out here I cannot even hear what he is saying. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A good point raised by the hon. gentleman, I wi~l ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to remove these people from the corridors please and have them go to the ~ammon rooms. The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle . MR. ROBERTS: Well, Your Honour, I thank my friend from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) and I thank Your Honour. I do not know the answer to the problem.

I was about to mention that, As I have said before, I am able to shout fairly loudly, as are most of us, but it is a matter of regret that - and I guess we are all guilty of it - I will just point out to you that one of the loud mouths outside was apparently one of us, one of the fifty-two of us, and we are all equally guilty, but it really does make life a lot easier and I thank my han. friend for doing me the compliment which I have done him on many occasions, with profit and pleasure, of listeninq to what I - or beginning to listen to what I say. He might not agree with it but at least he will listen. Mr.

Speaker, there are many matters in the 554 \

lolarch 7, 1980 Tape No. 208 NM - 3 M!L 'ROSE:.~S : Throne Speech that I would like to speak about even without getting into the questions aLfecting my own constituency, they will have to wait. There are many other matte::s that are not in the T~one Speech ~bich I think ·~uld be both ::e~evant and useful in a debate such as the ~ddress in Reply, which after all 1 is sort of the state of the Province debate . This and the debate on the budget are c~e t~~ set piece debates of any session, the t~o debates in which members can addr ess thems elves to the concerns of the Province as a whole.

So I have qot co select , and of course ! shall, but I intend co deal only •..rith some aspects, and they are only some aspects, of what is probably the single most imporc~~t topic 1 in that it is both timely and large,confrontinq us in this Province today, and chat is che question of offshore oil and qas, the whole s;:>ecttum. ~ow ffiY friend from St. Jor~'s west (~. Barrett) havin g read his S?eech has le£t, and I do not say cr~t in a critical sense , chat he read his speech.

I am not sugqestinq he did anyth inq unpaxliam~~tary for having read his sQeech, which he may or may not have sought advice in writinq . !! he did he qot bad advice. I just wanted co pick him up on che lase sentence which ! heard him utter which ! think , after all 1 is the crucial one, and ;_hat is my hon . frie:::d from St . .John's l~est , li.l<e too many people in t::-tis House , does not 555

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 209 DW - 1 11R. E. ROBERTS: realize that ownership and control are two entirely different ideas. Now, that does not sound like a terribly radical thought nor is it. But I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that most, if not al~ of the hon. gentlemen and the hon. ladies opposite aither do not understand that concept or are deliberately ig- noring it. Let me try to make it clear that ownership and control are not the same. There has been a great deal of controver~~ or there was, I guess it is over now 1 the last couple of months in the city of St.

John's about a proposal put in by a development firm I think it is called Scotia Developments Limited or something of that nature. ~r. Harold Duffett was one of the prime spokesman for the firm - the proposal put in by that group to develop a business property, a commercial property down on Duckworth and Water Streets, that corner in downtown St. John's. Now I am not aware of any question as to who owns that property. I am not going to give a legal opinion on the ownership but let us assume Scotia Developments own it. There has never been any question of that. B~t, Mr.

Speaker, t~ey do not control it and that was made glaringly obvious 1 as it ought to have bee~ by the fact that it is St. John's City Council who have the say 'aye' or' nay', and they chose to say 'aye' 1 to the pro?osal ?Ut forward !Jy Scotia Developments Limited. Now1 that is a stunning insight into the obvious but I would saggest most members O??OSite either have never had that insight or if they ha~e they have ignored it.

Ownership is not control nor is control ownership and when we come to talk of offshore oil and the offshore hydro car!Jons and w~at they will mean and what they must mean to the future of this Province 1 let us never over- 556

!•larch 7, 1980 Tape No. 209 Dt·: - 2 :!R. ::. ROBERTS: look that simple distinction. Many bon. members opposite have. Even my learned friend from St. John's East, (Mr. Marshall), a most competent lawyer, a senior member of the Cabinet, the Government House Leader 1 in his speech on Monday either was con- fused himself or used words carelessly beeause he time and time again used the word 'control' and the word 'ownership' as if they were synony•s for each other. They are not. The St. John's City Council controls property, what can be done with it within the boundaries of its jurisdiction.

The town of Gander7 the member for Gander (Mrs. Newhook) serve~ with great distinction as mayor of that community for many years - the!town of Gande~ th~ council controlled what was done with property in Gander I know my friend will agree. But as far as I know the council in Gander - I do ~ot know what they do or do not own but they certainly do not own all of the town of Gander. And let us not put that aside 1 let us not - I am sorry - forget that,let us realize that that is one of the central facts.

Because you see 1 I believe, as all of us do on this side 1 that we in Newfoundland and Labrador own the rights, we own the oil and the gas, never ever said anything differently ~oing back to the Smallwood years - AN RON. "!EMBER: (Inaudible) MR. E. ROBERTS: Oh, is that a bad name? eeave~ ~ knows I have had ~y rows with Mr . Smallwood. ~~ have eneertained the ~ntire Province on occasion ~~it:.h ou~ ant:.ics a au~, :-t r. Speak.er~ l~t as not s,?ea~ ill ot t~e ve~y ~eac good ~he ma~ and ~is adm~nisc=a- .icn ci=.. rtaybe we do ~ot aq~ee wit~ eve~ychi~~ . 557

!-larch 7, 1980 Tape No. 209 DW - 3 :·1~. ::. ~OBE R TS : That is fine. Although I would say to the present Premier, who is making a:habit out of bashing his predecesso~ that in due course he will be a past Premier 1 maybe quicker than he think~ perhaps quicker than he wants 1 and he should realize the kind of precedent that is being set. Because we are developing a great tradition in this Province now that whenever a new administration comes into office, not necessarily even a new part~ all of the sins that went before are blamed upon the leader of that past administration.

And I would say to the hon. gentleman for Green Bay, t.he Premier of this Province 1 that he too should be aware that his turn will come and if this is the way it is going to be 1 then that is the way it is going to be . . But, Mr. Speaker, the Smallwood a~ministration made it ~uite clear that they maintained the claim to ownership. The claim has never been compromised nor can it be. The Moores administration acted kind of strangely on i~ because the real reason the reference never went ahead in the Supreme Court 558

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 210 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: was that the Moores Administration did not push it. Whatever the reason, they would march right up to the edge and it never was submitted to the court. And my understanding is that it was never submitted because the government of the Province never would take the decisive steps needed. I would have no hesitation having that question submitted because I believe our case is strong. But I do not think that is the relevant point.

I do not think the relevant point at this stage is ownership/ I think the relevant point at this stage lies with the questions of control of jurisdiction and those are different, Sir, those are very different. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, before I go much further I want to very briefly say how surprised I was by the tenor and the tone of the remarks made by the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), the Government House Leader on Monday. I did not hear all of his speech, I do not regret that,having read it this morning.

I do not regret that I did not hear it, but I do want to say that I was surprised he took the low road which I had not expected of him. Quite candidly I had expected better from the han. gentleman and I had certainly expected better from a leading figure of the administration. I will touch upon one or two of the points he made in the course of what I have to say, but I do want to say that overall I think his speech was a distinct disservice to this House and this Province and I regret that. SOME HON. MEMBERS : l"..R. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! I do not mind debate.

I have been known, I think Your Honour will agree, to mix it up in debate happily and that is part of the function of this House, perhaps the most important part. We are here to talk, we are a parliament and my learned friend from­ St. John's '·Torth (Mr. J. Carter) is it? MR.'E'.B.ROWE: John Carter? MR. ROBERTS: Yes~ so he is not learned in the law,but he is learned in other things, a most intelligent man. He does not always 559

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 2J. O NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: use it but a most intelligent man, he 'l/ould be the very first to agree that parliament if from the French 'parler; to talk. This is a talking body to debate, but I think the kind of speech made by the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) really was a distinct disservice and I will leave it by simply saying I was surprised that he lowered himself to that level and I would hope that we will oot see a repetition.

I do not care if he wants to argue with the kinds of positions which we on this side put forward 1 that, Sir, iS what it is all about • .s.ut I think the tone and the tenor of what the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) said was beneath him- MR. FLIGHT: MR. ROBERTS: It showed a basic fault of his. - beneath him, Sir, and it ought to be beneath any ~ember of this House. Mr. Spea)<:er, the gentleman £rom st. John's East {Mr.

Marshall) made a great deal abput the ~ention of boundaries, and there are numerous references in his speech about the fact t'hat boundaries can be extended and somehow that will - that is the open sesame, that is the slicing of the GOrdian knot on the .offshore oil and gas issue. Let me read just one paragraph, it was found on page 157 of the Hansard Report of that day, and I will read the entire paragraph as it was reported in Hansard, the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshali) speaking.

"'!(ow what I .take issue with and I take stro.ng issue with is the attempt to confuse and to say that the courts of the land must ded.de who has ownership and at the same time to turn around and say it is impOssible for the two parties, that is the two governments, the Federal Government and the Provincial GOvernment, to agree irrespective of the courts as to who has the ownership. The hqn. gentleman talks about a court case that is on­ going and attempts to give the impression," the hen. gentleman being my friend, the Leader of t.he Opposition (Mr. Jamieson), "and attempts 560

)larch 7, 1990 Tape No. 210 ~M - 3 MR. ROBERTS: to give the impression, and I believe he is repeating what he sincerely believes but at the same token he is completely and absolutely and definitely wrong in his assessment that there needs to be a court case in order to resolve this issue. • And then my hon. friend goes on to talk about boundaries, and he makes i.t quite clear that in his opinion the extension of the boundaries of the Province, using the procedure s.et forth in the 1870 British North America Act amendmen.t, will somehow take care of the ownership issue.

Now, I want to say simply, sir, that of all the false specious doctrines I have ever heard advanced, that is the falsest, most specious, and least correct. It is not worth a jot or a tittle in law. Mr.J.CARTER: Why not? MR. ROBERTS : Why not? A good question; let rne supp.ly the answer. The extension of the boundaries of the 561

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 211 EL - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: Province does not give the Province any ownership rights. Consider, for example, if this House or the government by Order in Council were to extend the boundaries of the city of St. John's, which they may do as I understand the act, at a,ny time by Order in Council, would my hon. friend frolli St. John's North(J .carter) then think that the St. John's city council, a body corporate by virtue of a statute of this Province, is vested with the owner~hip of the Dew Drop Inn in Topsail. No, of course it is not. DR. J.

COLLINS: of the jurisdiction then. ~ROBERTS: The city is vested with the ownership Ah, now the gentleman, the Minister of Finance has just finally understood. The ownership, the ownership of jurisdiction. DR. J. COLLINS: Do you understand it? MR. E. ROBERTS : My hon. friend. may be a good pediat- rician but he is a terrible lawyer. OR. J. COLLINS : Well, there may be others in this House who are terrible lawyers too. MR. E. ROBERTS : -terrible lawyer. You should go back to treating children, Sir, and not acting like a child. DR. J. COLLINS: who are terrible lawyers also. MR. E.

ROBERTS: There might be others in this House Let me say to the Minister of Finance, that ownership, of jurisdiction is a meaningless phrase. The ownership of property carries with it certain rights, so does the jurisdiction to say what is to be done with that property, and they ar .e different issues and I shall deal with each one. I, first of all DR. COLLINS: Meaningful. )1R •. E • ROBERTS : Yes the words ownership of jurisdiction, they rray mean something to the hen. member but that, sir, does not mean they are meaningful to anyone else. I would sill' .ply say, Mr. Speaker, that 562

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 211 EL - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS : extending the boundaries of this Pro- vince does not give us any ownership rights. Furthermore, and I will come back to the federal precedents because my learned friend from St. John's East (W. Marshall) dealt only with selected statutes, we look at what has been done in Canada, we look at what has been done, not what a specious legal argument suggests ought to be done. The ownership, I believe, is ours now and I would have no hesitation in putting our case to the courts. And I will deal, in a minute, with the need for some certain and definite resolution of it.

But, Mr. Speaker, let me deal with the boundary issues first. Extending the boundary of this Province, extend­ ing the boundaries of a province is possible under the terms of the 1870 British North America Act Ammendment and I will not weary Your Manor and the House by reading all of it - I am sorry, the 1871. It is 34, 35 Victo.ria,

Chapter 28, whould Your Honor wish tel look it up, and the original copy of it will be found in the Victoria Tower in the House of Lords end of the Westminster Palace Building in London, should Your Honor wish to nip across the pond to have a look at it. And it says that Parliament of Canada may from time to time establish new provinces, and that is

Section 2, and

Section 3 is, "The Parliament of Canada may, from time to time, with the consent of the Lesislature of any province of the said Dominion, increase, diminish or otherwise alter the limits of such province upon such terms or conditions 3S may be agreed to by the said Legislature, da-da, da-da, da-da." But, Sir, and that power has been used. The creation of the Provinces of Manitoba - not Manitoba, I am sorry - Saskatchewan, Alberta, the extension of the Northern boundaries of Ont­ ario and Quebec in 1912, those are examples of that. Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing in that that enables the Parliament of canada to extend the boundaries of Canada by agreement with a province. Does Canada own - how far out do the boundaries of Canada go? We claim a twelve-mile territorial sea, that is all that Canada claims. tole have a 200-mile economic zone in which we control the fisheries. I believe we 563 •

March 7, 1980 Tape no. 211 EL - 3 MR. E • ROBERTS : maintain a claim and we ought to, and I think it is a just one, to the continental shelf, to the margin of the shelf for the sub-s .ea resources, which would include oil and hydrocarbons. tiN. F'('"':. "'!E~P.FR: What about the Hamilton Bank? lm. E. ~BER'l'S : Well, the Hamilton Bank is part of the continental shelf. It is a hundred metre line, roughly - I am sorry­ two hundred metres, ~ughly one hundred fathoms, roughly six hundred feet, but it is the two hundred metres, that is considered to be the verge of the continental shelf. But, Sir, even if we, as Canada, own that, for the ~arliament of Canada to divide it up will require the 56 4

March 7, 1980 Tape 212 EC - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: consent of all the provinces involved in it at the very least. And there has never been an exercise of that power conferred by the 1871 British North America Act, other than with the mutual consent of all the provinces involved, which means in the case of the offshore boundaries of this Province, at the very least the five eastern provinces of Canada. Mr. Speaker, let me take it a step further, because that argument, while it is sound, while it answers the han. gentleman's point completely, is rather irrelevant.

Because the transfer of the ownership of natural resources has never been equated with the boundaries of the Province. And I would refer hen. gentlemen to a little light reading, to the precedents in Canada, the Alberta Natural Resources Act, the Manitoba Natural Resources Act, the Saskatchewan Natural Resources Act, which are ~~e legislative enactments by means of which the three Western provinces - ~~e ~~ree Prairie Provinces, not British Columbia - got title to ~~eir natural resources.

And without going into them in any detail, I would simply point out that those acts were enacted by the Parliament of Canada and by the Legislatures of the provinces and they took the form of a ratification of an agreement that had been reached - and we have ~~ny precedents for that. And ~~en, Sir, they got force of law by liestminster - the British Nor~'l America Act, 19 30 - 20, 21, George '!..•

chapter 26, "An Act To Confirm And Give Effect To Certain Agreements Entered Into 3etween The Government Of The Dominion Of Canada _;nd The Governments Of The Provinces Of ~nitoba, British Columbia, Alberta And Saskatchewan Respectively." I would refer hon. members in particular to

Section l, which I shall read: "The agreement set out in the

schedule of this act" - they were the agreements I just spoke of - "are here:Oy confirmed and shall have the force of law notwithstanding anything in ~~e British North America Act, 1960, or any act amending ~'le same, or any act of the Parliament of Canada or any Order in Council or any terms or conditions of union made or approved under any such act as a:: ores aid. " 565

March 7, 1980 Tape 212 Ec--:. 2 MR. E. ROBERTS : Sir, the only way - let there be no doubt of this, there is nobody who could argue with any substantive merit that the only way that our title to the ownership of the resources can be vested in this Province beyond any dcubt is either by a declaration of t.'le highest court of the land, the Supreme Court of Canada, whether it is upon a reference or upon a matter of litigation brought before them or an amendment to the British North America Act. A reading of the letter of the former Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Mr.

Clark, makes it quite clear, Sir, that he accepted that position. My hon. friend from Bellevue (Mr.D.Jamieson) 1 the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, demonstrated quite clearly Mr.Clark's letter~different in many significant respects from the letter written by our own Premier. Mr. Clark's letter speaks of constitutional amendmen~s, and t.'lat is why it does, Sir, the reasons that I have just set forth. And I say if we own it we do not need any dealings w'i th t.'"1e Government of Canada on the ownership issue, and if we do not own it, the Government of Canada cannot give us that ownership.

It can be done only by an amendm~nt to ~'le Constitution of Canada, and t.'lat, Sir, requires the unanimous consent of the provinces. There is no statute, no rule that says what it takes to amend our constitution. In fact, we have never been able to agree in Canada on how to get our amendment. I was at the conference in Victoria in 1971 when we came as close as we have ever come in this country to amending it, to getting a formula to amend it, and that did not work out - the Government of Quebec backed off. The matter has never been resolved.

And short of a further resolution, obviously, and it is agreed upon by all concerned, that it takes unanimous consent on any issue that affects the nation, and this one affects the nation as a whole. So, Sir, let us hear no more talk - we will hear it, I have no doubt, but simply standing in this House saying, 'We have ownership,' does not give us a jot or tittle to title. 566

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 213 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: I can stand here and say I own the Royal Trust Buildinq. MR.J.CARTER: I hear a traitor. MR.F.B.ROWE: That is unparliamentary. MR. ROBERTS: Now, my friend from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) says he hears a traitor. Would he care to say who that traitor is? MR. J. CARTER: I hear treachery,that is what I should say. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what he should say, I heard what he said. Now would he care to say who that traitor is? MR. THOMS: Stand up and be counted. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let the hon. gentleman be a man. He made a statement.

Was he referring to me? MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : On a point of order, the hon. member for St. John's North.· MR. J. C.~TER: I said I hear a traitor. I did not ideatify any gentleman. I should have said I hear treachery because I quite agree that to point out that anyone in this House is a traitor is unparliamentary and unacceptable and I certainly do not intend to make that statement. But I certainly would stand by the sentiment and that I certainly feel that the han. gentleman has been making treacherous statements and I would certainly stand by that. MR.

ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: Isle. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, to that point of or~er. The hon. member for the Strait of Bell I distinctly heard the member for St. John's North make the statement that he hear a traitor. I was the member speaking• Now I say to him 1 if he has an cunce of honour, which I have always been prepared to concede to him, or an ounce of integrity, or an ounce of guts, intestinal fortitude 1 he will either stand by that statement or he will stand and withdraw it unreservedly and offer me the apology to 567

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 213 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: which I am entitled under the rules of the House but,furthermore,to which I am entitled by what I have said in this House. I will not stand for that kind of scum, contemptuous statement from any member. I take a back seat to nobody, Mr. Speaker, in this House. I am not a traitor. SOME HON. MEMBERS : He;u-, hear! MR. ROBERTS : I am not finished. Sit down. I am not finished with the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. J. carter) yet.

I have heard low, contemptuous, verminous statements, but for one member to stand in this House and say another is a traitor, that is the Tory line. That is why we are in the trouble we are in this day. I ask, Mr. Speaker, that he be directed to withdraw that statement according to the rules of the House, or prove it. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): st. John's North. A point of order, the han. member for MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I thought I cleared it up by my previous statement. I certaialy unreservedly withdraw any statement that the han. gentleman is a traitor. I said that just a few moments ago.

I do not see that it needs to be carried any further. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I would ask f~r a direction from Your Honour that t.he han. gentleman be asked to withdraw it. AN BON . ~IEMRE R : (Inaudib le) . MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, he got up and weasled and further- more I believe he owes an apology, Sir. Can an hon. member get away in this House with calling another hon. member a traitor and not be required to apologize. MR. MARSHALL: MR . SPEA.'<E R: of the counc il. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order.

To the point of order, the hon. the President Mr. speaker, the hon. gentleman is - his temperature is a little bit up because of the - 568

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 213 NH - 3 AN HON.~EHBEF': And so it should be. I<!R. MAP.St!ALL : - bec a us e of the exchailge, The hon . member fo r St . John ' s North ( ~tr . J . Cart e

r) got up and quice, I think, to my hearing anyway, unrese....-vedl.y withdre w an-y statement t.hat might be deemed to be offensive and I do not see any point i n - I mean, thac is all t.hac can be done if you withdraw it . M!L'l'HOMS : He did not '"'ithdra w it . MR. SPEAKER (Butt ) : To the po int of o r der . It is c l ear to me tr..at. the hon . member for St . J ohn's North ( ~tr . J . carter) did witbdratv so ! would ask the hon . member for the Strait of Be l l Isle (Mr. Robert

s) to con t inue . MR. ROBERTS: I 'I'Ould simply say to the hon . member :or St. John's Nort h (Mr . J . Career ) , he should be aware of or . Johnston ' s words chat: pat.riot i s m is the last refuge of the s coundrel . !-tr . Speaker, ! ha_ve ~ve minute s left, may ! nave c ons ent o£ the House for an extra fliteen o r twenty ~nutes? i f not ! wil l move an ame ndment . A:..~ :!ON. MDlBER: By a.ll mean s . MR. ::tOBERTS: I mean I would like a Eew mor e minut .es and I am prepared t o move an ame."li:iment if need be · M..~ . 3PEA.!<ER: ~!:<. FLGiiiT: 3y l eave?

Begrudgi ngly , Tha t: was b.egrudged if ever any t hing was. Ver y be g r ud ing l y. ~!R. ROBE.RTS : !4y underst.anding i s ! have fift.een min ut.es beyond •.rhat ! have bee n al l o wed by the :!".lles cue - c ha 1: i s :: i ne . 56 9

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 214 so - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I can appreciate that the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) does not agree with what I say 1 but I would say to him that casting aspersions upon my character is hardly the way to answer it. Let hilll or his colleagues try to answer the ilr91JIIIents as !::est they can. I think I have put forward a case that stands in constitutional law and in law - the bon. gentleman shakes his head 1 Well, Sir, I am sorry, I will need higher authorit~ with all respect 1than the gentleman from St. John's North.

I do not even accept the gentleman from st. John's East (Mr. w. Marshall) who has an infinitely higher authority but makes even less sense on this issue. At least we do not expect more from the man from st. John's North. MR. L. BARRY : your opinion? MR. E. ROBERTS: How much research went into Mr. Speaker, more research went into my ORinion then went into the gentleman'from st. John's East.And if my friend from Mount Scio (Mr. L.

Barry), temporarily absent from his dut±es as constitutional law professor at Dalhousie to which he fled when the electorate gave him the back of their hand - he was thrown out of the Province once and he came sneaking back in MR. L. BARRY: MR. E. ROBERTS: I beg your pardon? came back in with a flurry . Mr. Speaker, you know, I would like a full debate and if the gover~ent would only set the time aside I think it would be a most useful exercise of time. I would like the government as well 1if they feel so happy about it and so confident 1to table the opinions they have received.

I would like the minister to tell us why the government will not go ahead and have not gone ahead to date with the reference to the Supreme Court. 1-'P .. L. BARRY: for the fP.deral government? MR. E. ROBEF.'l'S: Do you want us to write the case Mr . Speaker, the hen. gentleman 570

March 7, 1980 Tape No. 214 SD - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: can not even write our own case let alone the federal government's case. Mr. Speaker, you know, I have said that boundary extension does not give ownership nor does it. I have also said that the precedents in Canada are that the transfer of natural resources have been done by amendment to the British North America Act. That stands. Both those statements stand as good statements of good law. I have heard - I am sorry. MR. L. BARRY: MR. E. ROBERl'S: What was the first point? The first point is that the extension of boundaries does not in itself