Manitoba Hansard — 22 March 1963 (Sitting 34, 27th Legislature, 5th Session)

27-5-34

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, March 9th, 1966 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills 78 1 HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Fort Rouge): In the absence of the Minister concerned, would the House allow this Act to stand? MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to attract your attention to the gallery where there are some 20 First Year Political Science students from St.

John's College under the direction of their instructors Mr. -Fox-Decent and Mr. D. C. Row land. This college is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. And there are some 8 Grade ll students from St. Boniface Junior High School under the direction of Mr. Arc and. This high school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for St. Boniface. On behalf of all members of this Legislative Assembly, I welcome you. Orders of the Day. MR . ARTHUR E.

WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. How many students are en rolled in the General Course and what percentage is this of the total high school enrollment? HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education)(Gimli): Well, Madam Speaker, the honourable member - I wish to thank him for giving me notice of this question. In Grades 10 to 12 inclusive there are 5, 029 students enrolled, which is 12. 7 percent of the total enrollment in high school. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate .... MR .

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to address a question to the Honourable House Leader. I regret that I didn't give him notice of this question. A number of days ago a petition was presented to the .Honourable Minister from a group of citizens in the Windsor Park-Niakwa Park area of my constituency, regarding the question of a French option school.

My question to the Honourable Minister is: has the government given consideration to the petition, arrived at any conclusion, and if not, when may the people expect some conclusion as to the presentation of the petition? MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker, my

part in this -receiving the delegation was to receive the petition from them, discuss the matter with them and I undertook to convey copies of the brief to the First Minister and to the Minister of Education, which I did. MR . PAULLEY: A subsequent question, Madam Speaker, would be directed to the Honourable the First Minister or the Honourable the Minister of Education. Has any considera tion been given thus far to the contents of the brief referred to? HON ..

DUFF ROBLIN (Premier)(Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I can tell my honourable friend the matter is being considered but I can say nothing more about it at the present moment. MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Madam Speaker, since the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture is not in his seat, I'll have to direct my question to the First Minister or House Leader. When can we expect the legislation in connection with amendments to The Credit Unions Act to come forward? MR . ROBLIN: I think that that matter will have to be taken as notice on behalf of the Minister oi Agriculture - in charge of that bill.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable the Member for Gladstone. MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie made certain charges yesterday that were not answered by our mutual friend the Honourable the Minister of Highways. He said that information in respect to road counts was made available to members opposite - that is to members of the government - and I thought that I recalled a backbencher quoting figures in a debate that arose two or three years

78 2 March 9, 1966 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) ... .. .. .. ago. And sure enough, I found a Hansard that proved my point - and I am referring to the debate that took place on Friday, March 22, 1963 in this House that had to do with this very

section of highway that we are asking for road counts on now. I said before that it was rather interesting because the debate at that time called for a four-lane highway to replace the two-lane highway and my honourable friends opposite were suggesting that it wasn't necessary to have a four-lane highway and they produced some road counts to prove it and so on and so forth. But, as you know, and everyone else knows, about a year following that they announced a crash program to proceed to build this road. But in this Han sard, No. 24, Friday, March 22, 1963, William H.

Hamilton (Dufferin) speaking against our resolution for the four-lane highway, said that during a three year period, 3, 285, 000 vehicles traversed this 27 mile

section of highway and the accident rate was one accident for every 28, 318 vehicles, and so on. Now it is true that he is reporting the number of vehicles that traversed over this highway in a three year period, which I think would average out something over a million cars annually, and I suppose, Madam Speaker, that we could in this instance redraft an Order for Return as we have done in the past - and it worked - saying, is the road count over a million cars annually but less than 1, 100, 000? Answer yes or no. And we'd probably get a "yes" or "no" answer. We would probably get it.

That is, we did this, as you will recall, in asking for loans made by the Manitoba Development Fund. All we did was re frame the questions and we got the answers we wanted. And if we fail to get the answers for this one, I am going to try it because it's pretty simple. You just put in what are the number of vehicles that travel over this

section of highway: over a million annually? less than a million? And so on and we'll see how we get along with that. Now my honourable friend the Member for Portage la Prairie has an Order for Return in asking for certain correspondence between the department and certain oil companies. I don't know, I think I am safe in saying the government accepted this Order. My guess is that the correspondence will show that the information in respect to road counts has already been given to the oil companies. So it's possible that we may get the information in that fashion.

Well if it is given to the oil companies, then why is it withheld from us? There is no question about it but that the land that faces a highway increases in value and the extent to which it increases in value depends entirely on the number of cars that are going by it. It is the same thing in every city and in every town. Before any company will make a huge investment or a common investment, mediocre investment, the Number One question they. want to know: How many people are going by your door? In Neepawa for instance, this factor is used in determining the rent. How many people go by the door?

They tell me that in Florida that if you want to buy a motel - and incidentally I have been informed that every motel in Florida is for sale - but the price that you pay for the motel is based on the traffic count going by it. That is the possibility of you attracting some one into your place of business is certainly determined by the number of people that walk by the door. I have had people in the Town of Neepawa - have had them, I continually have them - asking me what the traffic count is a mile west of Neepawa or a mile east of Neepawa or a mile south of Neepawa, a mile north, .and so on.

As my honourable friend the Minister is well aware, the intersection of the junction of 4 and 5 is getting pretty well set up with business establish ments and I think they're all doing a pretty fair business. But one of the fellows who is pre sently doing a very good business - it's only a couple of years old -w as considering expanding his operations last year in another location and he tells me that he asked the department for a traffic count and they refused it to him and he wanted to know whether, as being his ombudsman, could I get it for him. And I was unsuccessful.

However, there are a number of reasons that we feel that we should be given this in formation and certainly if it a fact that my honourable friends opposite, the backbenchers, are getting it, then there is every reason for us to have it. My honourable friend the Minister didn •t say that he was not supplying it to the members opposite and this Hansard recording ' proves that they did get it - the backbencher got the information that he wanted and used it in the House. And so, Mr.

Chairman, or Madam Speaker, we could debate this whole subject matter for hours on end but it's not my purpose to do that at the moment, but I think that there is no reason why it could not be supplied·to us. There is every reason why we should have it if they are going to give it to the backbenchers of the government, and I sincerely hope that my honour able friend has had a change of heart since yesterday. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question.'?

March 9, 19r56 783 MR . SAUL CHERNIACK Q. C. (St. John's): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Logan, that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR . R.OBUN: Madam Speaker, before you call the next order of business I wonder if I could have permission of the House to make a statement that would normally be made on the Orders but which was not ready for me at that time, in connection with the flood information as I feel the House should have it at the earliest notice.

MADAM SPEAKER: Has the Honourable Member permission to .. .. -- (Interjection)- MR . R.OBUN: The information that I'm about to give the House has come from the United States Weather Bureau and it concerns the way that they see things in that

section of the Red River that lies south of the 49th parallel, but its implications for those who lie north of the 49th parallel are obvious. They report first of all that the water content of the snow is 50 percent more than it was in 1950; that they expect the flood stage at Fargo to reach 23 Jeet which is compared to 17 feet last year; at Grand Forks to be 48-1/2 feet as compared to 28 feet last year (that's the worst flood stage) and they are predicting a level at Emerson of 791 feet; 791 feet is almost the exact level reached in 1950 at Emerson when it was 790. 89 feet.

Emerson last year, when it was a threat to the community was 785.34 feet. This information merely confirms, Madam Speaker, the report that has already been given to the House by my colleagues in respect to the possibi- 1 lities in this connection.

I say possibilities, because the science of flood prediction is some thing less than exact and we may expect to get many new pieces of information, some good and some bad before the river crests around May 6th or 8th as it usually does, and it would be wrong on the one hand to set off a wave of alarmism with respect to the flood possibility, and it would be equally a mistake to act as if the possibility didn't exist. It follows therefore that it's necessary to take all prudent measures to prepare for the worst eventuality while as every body does, hoping for the best.

I give this information to the House because I imagine it will be in the news media soon and I think the House would like to know it. I should also say that I intend to convene a meeting of the public bodies and officials who bear some responsibility in this matter early next week, to begin to put together our flood fighting plan of campaign.

We'll have a meeting of all the people who are liable to be affected in this way; we will then have a thorough review and report of all the fac:ts that we know and examine the forecasts that arise from those facts and then determine what measures are indicated as being necessary under the circumstances. So I thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to report this information to the Legislature and to give some indication of what our next step will be. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition)(Ste. Rose): Madam Speaker, if I might just say a word on the Premier's statement.

I want to thank him very much for giving us this information and certainly while it's not a pleasant piece of news, the House must be acquainted of it and I trust that the government will be taking the necessary precautions to get the materials that will be required in the event' that this unpleasant forecast does in fact ma terialize. I am pleased to see that the Premier is calling together the public bodies involved. I think it is very important that we work very closely in this matter with the municipalities. I have a communication, for example, from the City of St.

Vital, who on the 7th of March wrote to me concerned about this matter. It's a copy of a letter which was .sent to others as well and they are very anxious to know what steps will be taken insofar as the supply of sandbags, and the filling in advance and so on, pointing out that depending on volunteers when the emergency comes is nort always completely successful. Pm sure the municipalities will be anxious to have this meeting so the proper steps can be taken. I wonder if the First Minister would be in a position to give us some information as to what the lon1�-range forecast for the next period is.

I realize that it's an imperfect science but if we could have that information I think it might be helpful as well so that we may have a better idea of what might transpire between now and early May. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I too thank the Premier for the bad news that he has disclosed to us today, if one can thank anyone for receiving bad news. I was going to refer .to the same letter that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition did in respect of the concern of the Municipality of St. Vital, part of which as members know, I have the honour of representing.

They are concerned, as indeed all of the other municipalities who were flooded back in '50 and

784 March 9, 1966 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ... . , .. '51, and others I'm sure are just as concerned, because if one recalls the incident of '50, all municipalities, particularly in the southern part of Manitoba made provision to aid those who were affected by the flood indirectly by provision of homes and the likes of this. We certainly hope this will not be necessary. I join with the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose in suggesting appreciation of the calling of a meeting of the various municipal men as quickly as possible.

It is high time, now that this information has been laid before us, for us to start considering ordering in materials for diking and excavation materials if necessary, equipment and other factors. I appreciate the fact that the House has been made aware of the situation; it's not being treated lightly in any way, and preparedness is the best defence, I think, that this Legislature can provide at the present time. MR . FROESE: Madam Speaker, I think this is rather in a way sad news and certainly it's a concern to all of us here in this Assembly.

We still have no help in sight as far as flood ing is concerned on the Red especially south of the city and I just wonder whether consideration has been given, or whether it will be given.to probably opening up the river bed where we pro bably have serious obstruction, in the way of large snow drifts and so on. I think this would unduly back up the waters and probably something could be done in this direction if the river bed was cleared so that the flow could start immediately and once the water is coming so that we wouldn't have undue obstructions and back-up of the waters. MR . HARRY P.

SHEWMAN (Morris): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of the Red River Valley I would like to say thank you Mr. Premier for the interest that you are show ing so early in the season. We're not looking for a flood and we're hoping that there will not be a flood, but your interest and the interest of the government will be greatly appreciated by the people of the Red River Valley. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Madam Speaker, I am quite disturbed by the un pleasant forecast that the Premier has given to us here.

Of course it's nothing new because the people in southern Manitoba along the border have heard about this forecast even yesterday and the day before. I have had several inquiries about it as to what they could do to prepare themselves for the flood,, because even though if there isn't a general flood they know, espe-· cially the people at Emerson, that they will have high waters and they'll need a certain amount of protection. They're interested now in preparing. themselves for the coming high waters, or the coming flood.

Now they say that they have labour available to fill sandbags and so on and I wonder if the Premier does intend to include officials or officers from these towns, Emerson and Letellier and St. Jean, who have in the past worked as far as preparation for the flood, whether they'll be included in the forthcoming meeting. MR . DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the First Minister a question arising out of his statement.

Is the First Minister aware of the situation with regard to stockpiling of materials by the various municipalities under the author ity of the Diking Commissioner or whatever the appropriate official is now called. My honour able friend the Leader of the NDP referred to municipalities making arrangements to get materials but I would imagine likely some materials at least are already stockpiled. Could we have the situation in that regard? MR. ROBLIN: If I may have the indulgence of the House I would make a reply to the various points that have been raised.

As and when we get information on the flood we will share it with members of the House - that's for the Leader of the Opposition. For the Member for Emerson, may I say that we will invite all those people who will likely be affected by what we foresee. I'm certain that will include the towns that he mentioned.

Last year we also had a problem in this connection, and we established I think a rather effective system of co-ordination between all levels of government; we established if you want to use the expression, command posts in Morris and in Emerson where we expected special problems and also a flood headquarters in this Legislature. plus what fortunately I think re ceived only one - a refugee centre on the Pembina Highway leading into Winnipeg.

All matters in connection with materials, stockpiles and all that kind of thing, were adequately handled in that way and it would be our intention to follow roughly the same procedure on this occasion, having had the advantage of the lessons that were learned then and on other occasions, in deal ing with this matter. I think it is not a point that I would care to talk about, the question of detail on who's got what stockpile - that's something for the working committee to do when they meet and assess the situation.

March 9, 1966 78 5 MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I might have the permission to ask one further question. Has the government decided what the situation iS going to be insofar as the financial assilstance in this case; For example, St. Vital in this particular letter are asking whether the �:overnment will accept the responsibility for raising the secondary dike system and undoubtedly the question will arise from the other municipalities insofar as sandbags, sand and so on. Has a decision been made in this regard? MR . ROBUN: These matters will be considered in due course, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, that An Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: Copies of all work performed by Camp and Associates Limited, Dalton K. , Toronto, Ontario, in the total amount of $266, 611.85 as shown in the Public Accounts of Manitoba 1963-64 and 1964-65. MADAM: SPEAKER presented the motion. MR .

EVANS: Madam Speaker, I can't accept the Order in its present form simply be cause it's impossible to answer the question. Services of an advertising agency are not re duced to copies of anything and such copies as they have of accounting documents are not in the government's possession.

I would like to give my honourable friend all the information that he is seeking and my suggestion would be that if he wished to, to withdraw this Order or at some other time sub stitute another one asking for a complete description of the services performed and if he wished the disposition of this amount of money, and I would attempt to give him a complete written description.

An alternative would be that if he wished to have further information at Public Accounts Committee, this being a further discussion -- I recognize however that we would be dealing with a different year's public accounts and there might be a difficulty there -- but on my own estimates if he wished to have a more extended description or discussion of the ser vices performed that would prove a suitable occasion. So I offer that to my honourable friend that it's not possible to accept the Order simply because it is physically impossible to do so, the way it is worded. MR .

JOHNSTON: Madam Speaker if I could ask the Minister, is not this an adver�ising firm that prepared designs and advertising layouts? This is what I'm talking about. MADAM SPEAKER put the questionand after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR . JOHNSTON: Yeas and Nays Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members.

The question before the House, the Order for a Return standing in the name of the Honour able the Member for Portage la Prairie, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing Copies of all work performed by Camp and Associates Limited, Dalton K. , Toronto, Ontario, in the total amount of $266, 611. 85 as shown in Public Accounts of Manitoba 1963-64 and 1964-65 .. A standing vote was taken the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Barkman, Campbell, Cherniack, Desjardins, Froese, Harris, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Johnston, Molgat, Patrick, Paulley, Peters, Shoemaker, Smerchanski, Tahchak, Vielfaure.

NAYS: Messrs: Alexander, Baizley, Beard, Cowan, Evans, Hamilton, Harrison, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McDonald, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Mills, Seaborn, Shewman, Smellie, Stanes, Steinkopf, Strickland, Watt, Weir, Witney and Mrs. Morrison. MR . CLERK: Yeas, 17; Nays, 27. MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion lost. Order for a Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1.

Whether any surveys and/or studies were conducted by the Government of Manitoba, with regard to the assessment or possible taxation of farm buildings since the Government has received the Michener Commission Report; 2. What types of surveys and/or studies were conducted; 3. By whome the surveys and/or studies were conducted; 4. Which municipalities were surveyed or studied; 5. When the surveys or studies were started in each municipality; 6. When the surveys or studies were completed in each municipality.

78 6 March 9, 1966 MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. HON. ROBERT G. SMELLIE Q. C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Birtle-Russell): Madam Speaker, as I told the honourable·mernber the other day, any information of this nature that there may be at the moment is at best incomplete and there are no documents which would be tableable in this connection. The information that is requested for in this Order is informa tion which it would not be in the public interest to release because of the fact that it is in complete at this time and the government would not be able to accept this Order. MR .

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I sometimes wonder what type of a system of govern ment that we are entering into here in the Province of Manitoba for never in the thirteen years that I have had the opportunity, the honour of being a Member of the Assembly of the Province of Manitoba, have ever I listened to such poppycock as we are listening to this year from the Government in respect of refusals for information that is being sought by members in Opposi tion.

You know, Madam Speaker, we pride ourselves on the public hustings of how much better we are here in Manitoba and in the Western democracies than they are in countries behind the Iron Curtain, where there the individual has no rights so we are told, or privileges; where there we are told that only by the rule of government or dictator has anyone the opportunity of information. Madam Speaker, we have reached or are fast reaching that stage here in the Province of Manitoba.

The Honoura ble the Minister of Municipal Affairs has just told us in respect of this.Return that it is not in the public interest to disclose incomplete information. Why doesn't he say so in an Order for Return. This is what he should be doing.

I know my honourable friend is immature insofar as experience in political affairs are concerned, but there are some around him surely to goodness that can give him some guidance, or at least, we would expect that there might be out of the majority Members of this House, someone who may say to my honourable young friend, "now look, think it over Buster." But they are not doing it. Yesterday we heard an announcement of far reaching consequence to the Province of Manitoba, the statement of the Honourable the Minister of Industry & Commerce respecting new developments in the northern part of our country.

Today just the reverse, we hear from the Municipal Affairs Minister a rejection of information sought on what is happening in the Province of Manitoba. My honourable friends opposite love so much to stand up on the pro verbial soapbox and extoll their virtues and their glories but they are afraid, they are afraid to disclose to this House and through this House their inefficieljlcies and their inadequacies which we endeavour to ferret out through the media of Orders for Returns.

I want to make an appeal, Madam Speaker, to the back benchers, if the ears of the front benche&areclosed, I want to appeal to the backbenchers in government to adhere to the princi ples that you feel should be adhered to, namely free information in a free democracy. I see my honourable friend the Member for Wellington who often chastizes me because of my basic philosophy.

I say to my honourable friend from Wellington here is an opportunity for him to prove himself that he doesn't agree with government keeping unto themselves the information as to how this government is operating and how this province of ours should be governed and how the people should be informed as to what is going on in the political affairs of Manitoba. So, Madam Speaker, I appeal to the backbenchers to support the desire for knowledge as to governmental activities if their bosses in the front rows reject the information desired in the likes of this Order for Return.

MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, before the question is put, then I shall close the debate if no one else wishes to speak. Madam Speaker, I am amazed at the reply given to me by the Minister of Municipal Mfairs. He couldn't possibly have read the Order of Return which I presented. He couldn't h ave read what I am asking for, in the light of the reply that he gives me, because if that is so, then I simply cannot understand the attitude of the Minister and that of his colleagues. I'd like to refer the Minister back, Madam Speaker, to the questions that are asked.

The other day, on the 28th of February, I had introduced an Order for Return in this House asking for copies of all surveys and studies conducted by the Government of Manitoba or any of its Departments, Boards or Agencies in the past two years regarding the assessment of farm buildings. I was then seeking copies of the reports. The Minister replied to me at that time that the only information he had was a very incomplete study and that any report there might be would certainly not be public documents, that they were inter-departmental memoranda.

I asked him a subsequent question on that matter and asked him if it was correct that investiga tions had been conducted by the Department in certain municipalities, and that a study was in

M;arch 9, 19156 787 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) .•...... fact being made. He said that there was an incomplete survey affecting only a very few municipalities; there was not sufficient information on which a report could be based at this time. I asked him a further question: could he indicate when the survey was started I' He said it was started in 1964, been no work done for over a year. Well, I accepted the statement of the Minister at that time, Madam Speaker, and I didn't challenge his reply to me, that this was inter-departmental.

I felt that we could have been given the informa tion but when the Minister says it's inter-departmental then that's the end of the question nor mally in this House. So i didn't ask for any further matters in this regard. Now my questions now, Madam Speaker, I am not asking the Minister for the reports or the studies. He said that they were inter-departmental. What I am asking him here is simply whether studies or surveys have been conducted. Well he told me "yes" the other day, so presumably that question he can answer. The second one is: what type of survey or study is conducted?

I am not asking for the studies themselves but what is it? Is it a comprehensive survey of a -complete municipality? Is it a spot survey or what is it? By whom the surveys were conducted? Surely it is a reasonable question. Is it my honourable friend's Department? Is it some other Department? Is it some board, some agency? Surely the House is entitled to know that. Then I am asking him: which municipalities have been surveyed or studied? He told us the other day there were a very few. Surely he can tell us which ones.

Then I want to know when they were started and when they were completed, if they have been completed. Now I am not asking for any of the details of the studies. He told us the other day they're inter departmental. He admitted that there were some being conducted. Now surely the House is entitled to know these sort of details if the Minister is not prepared to give us the results, but surely w.e a:�e entitled to know this amount of information. I appeal to his colleagues on the front bench across the way, Madam Speaker, I appeal to them to reconsider this matter.

I am quite prepared if the Minister will tell me to ask leave to withdraw this present Order now and put it back in again, giving the government time to reconsider the matter. I realize the Minister having said "no" to me now, they would probably want to reconsider this before voting "yes". Well I am not going to push them into that position this afternoon. I am quite prepared, if the Minister will tell me that he will consider my put ting this baek on the Order Paper lit a later date, I am quite prepared to ask leave of the House to withdraw.

But I appeal to the government, they are putting themselves in an entirely im possible position and they are denying to this House infor'mation that the House is rightfully entitled to have. We are perfectly entitled to know the details that we are askin g there. I'm not asking for the studies. He told me the other day I couldn't have them. But surely I am entitled to know, in the light of the answers he gave me the other day, this minimum informa tion. The House surely is entitled to that.

Madam Speaker, I can only conclude from the attitude that the Minister has taken that he is trying to hide something from this House; that he is in effect planning to tax or to assess and to tax farm buildings in the Province of Manitoba and that he is conducting some surveys that he doesn't want us to know anything about. MR. SMELLJE: I told you the other day that we weren't .. .. MR. MOLGAT: Well you told us the other day that we were conducting surveys. --(Interjection)-- Well the Minister says he did. I'll read him his very words, Madam Speaker.

Here i s what he said and I am quoting from Hansard, Page 538: "The only information that we would have at the present time is a result of an incomplete study and any reports that might be of this nature are certainly not public documents. They are only inter-departmental memo randa and there is nothing that I could file under this Order. " I asked him then: ''I wonder if I may ask a question of the Minister.

Is it not correct that there were investigations conducted by the Department in certain municipalities of this province and that a study was made to the effect of the assessment of farm buildings?" The Minister replied: "As I said, Madam Speaker, there is an incomplete survey affecting only a very few municipalities. " --(Interjection)-- Keep on going? "And there is not sufficient information on which a report could be based at this time." I am not asking for the report, Madam Speaker. --(Interjection)-- The next ques tion?

Certainly, if you want me to real it all, I'll be delighted. --(Interjection)·-- I then asked, Madam Speaker, a subsequent question: "Could the Minister indicate when this survey was started by the Department?" And he replied to that: "A survey was started in 1964. There has been no work done on it for over a year. " That's the complete statement. Now he admits that there is a survey. He can't deny that there is one, he says there is one. So what I want to know from him is simply these details. He told me I couldn"t have the survey. All right.

788 March 9, 1966 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) ........ • Let him keep his survey. But surely I am entitled to know these other details in the light of these circumstances, Madam Speaker. So I come back, Madam Speaker, and I appeal to the government. I am prepared to· put them in a position where they will not need to make a decision this afternoon, in view of the statements of the Minister, give him a chance to reconsider this matter; to withdraw my order by leave of the House, provided I can introduce it again at a later date.

But short of that, Madam Speaker, if the government persists in refusing this information, then·r say that they are being arrogant arid completely disregarding the rights of the members of this House re presenting the people of Manitoba. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, has my honourable friend closed the debate? MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. MOLGAT: Yeas and nays, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members .

The question before the House, the Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. Whether any surveys and/or studies were con ducted by the Government of Manitoba, with regard to the assessment or possible taxation of farm buildings since the Government has rec eived the Michener Comm ission Report; 2. What types of surveys and/or studies were conducted� 3. By whom the surveys and/or studies were conducted� 4. Which municipalities were surveyed or studied; 5.

When the surveys or studies were started in each municipality; 6. When the surveys or studies were completed in each municipality. A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Barkman, Campbell, Cherniack, Desjardins, Froese, Harris, Hillh ouse, Hryhorczuk, Johnston, Molgat, Patrick, Paulley, Peters, Shoemaker, Smerchanski, Tanchak, Vielfaure and Wright. NAYS: Messrs.

Alexander, Baizley, Beard, Bjornson, Cowan, Evans, Hamilton, Harrison, Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McDonald, McGre gor, McKellar, Mcl..ean, Martin, Mills, Seaborn, Shewman, Smellie, Stanes, Steinkopf, Strickland, Watt, Weir, Witney and Mrs. Morrison. MR. CLER K: Yeas, 18; Nays, 30. MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion lost. Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. JOHNSTON: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1.

How many school tax rebate applications have taken three months or longer from date of receipt by the govern ment to proce ss and mail out to the property owner? 2. How many have taken two months? 3. How many have taken one month? MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . EVANS: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the House would be disposed to allow this to stand until the Provincial Treasurer is able to be here? MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. MR. EVANS: If it's preferable, Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources , that the debate be adjourned.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKE R: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 7. The Honourable the Attorney-General. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN Q. C. (Attorney-General)(Da uphin): ··Madam Speaker,may I have leave of the House to have this stand? MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 5. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I did not adjourn this Bill the other day for the purpose of holding up the debate by any means but we were involved at that time in a difficulty within the House and I understood it was the desire to have it held, so I'm not going to oppose the Bill going for second reading. I want to thank the Minister for the information that he supplied us today and the concordance between the new Act and the old Act, this will be very helpful in the study of this very voluminous bill.

I accept the statement that the Minister made the other day in the discussion on the re solution that by accepting second reading of the Bill and referring it to the speCial committee

March 9, 1966 789 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) ..... that it will in fact be acted upon at this session and will be returned to the House in time for the House to take action insofar as putting it into law at this Session as well. This was my understanding of his statement on the debate during the Committee stage and it is on that basis that I do not intend to oppose the Bill or to hold up the discussion at all, to refer it ail once. We can have further discussion then in the Committee and as well in Com mittee of the Whole when it comes back. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? HON. MAITLAND B. STEINKOPF Q.

C. (Provincial Secretary) (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I have no intention of diluting the statement that I made the other day. it is still the intention of the Government that this Bill if it receives second reading today, be referred immediately to the Highway Safety Committee which was constituted the other day with the in tent that it proceed immediately and with all dispatch going over it and with the sincere intent that that committee will report back as soon as possible so that we can then proceed with it here with the intention of having it passed at this Session.

I can't give any assurance that the committee is going to do it but this is certainly our intention - that is what we hope will come after the bill is referred to the committee. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could ask a question of the Minister then. I realize that he cannot commit the other members of the committee if the majority of the committee says "No", but if that were the case, would he then be prepared to refer the Bill back to the Law Amendments Committee? MR. STEINKOPF: Yes, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 44. The Honourable the Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker I adjourned the debate for the Honourable Member for Selkirk. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Member for Selkirk. MR. T. P. IDLLHOUSE Q. C. (Selkirk): Madam, I wish to thank the House for allowing this matter to be stood.

I have no objection, Madam, to the number of the Members of the Board of the Manitoba Telephone System being increased from five to seven, but along with other Members of this House, particularly on this side of the House, I do have certain re servations of the use that can be made of that increase in number and I would make this sugges tion to the Government.

Under the Legislative Assembly Act, it is not an offence for which a member of this House can be unseated if he is appointed to the Board of the Manitoba Telephone System, and I would suggest that the Government could get out of its dilemma if it froze in the Legislative Assembly Act the number of members of this House that could sit on the Manitoba Telephone System Board and restrict that to one as it is now. If they do that, well they cannot be accused of increasing the number of the members of this Board from five to seven.

Now in making this statement I realize that I might be in a parliamentary way accused of being self-righteous and accused of other things, but I would like to point to Members of this House that I have never at any time believed inpatronage and that is notwithstanding the implica tion made in a speech by the Honourable Member for St. John's the other day, when he referred to the recent action of the Federal Government in appointing certain individuals to the Senate.

As' far as I'm concerned if these men were good Canadians the Government had a perfect right to appoint them, but if these men were simply appointed simply because they were good stal warts of the Li beral Party I say the Government had no right to appoint them. I woulld like to go further than that and say this, this is the other side of the coin, that in the last Federal election in Selkirk Constituency, there was a young man who ran under the ticket of my honourable friend from St. John's as a candidate.

I know that young man per sonally, I have the greatest regard and the greatest respect for him, but I want to tell the mem bers of this House that that young man, although at that time he was known to be an active member of my friend's party, did receive patronage from the Liberal Government at Ottawa, and as far as I know is still receiving it; so there's two sides to every coin . .But the point is this, Madam, that if this Bill is being used for the purpose of creating a Manitoba Senate for certain members of this House, well that dilemma can be easily overcome by amendinl� the Legislative Assembly Act and restricting the number of the members of this House that can sit on the Board of the Telephone System to one.

We have one member there now and I don't think that the members of this House want to see two more appointed from this Assembly in the event of something happening to them, either through resignation or otherwise at the next election.

790 March 9, 1966 MR . CHER NIACK: Would the honourable member permit a question Madam Speaker. --(Interjection)-- Would you say that it is more blessed to receive or to give? MADAM SPEAKER: All those in favour .. .. MR . LAURENT DE SJARDINS (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .

EVANS: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member from Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 18 - - MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I was looking around to see if my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP Barty was in the House.

I'm sorry to have to hold up the time of the Committee but because of the tirade that my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP party made last night and the things that he said about the former government, I simply have to refer to his statements. Now I have never objected to the fact that that government and I personally, received a great deal of criticism for the conduct of affairs at that time and I don't object to it now, but I certainly do object when my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP makes a statement such as he did last night.

I don't intend to follow his example in any of the obvious ways that he made apparent to the House but I do want to place myself on record once again as saying that these statements are just not true when it is said that the government was paying no attention whatever to the situation; that the government attempted to think that the sun was going to shine and that all the troubles would disappear without any action. This just is not tr ue, Mr. Chairman, and I don't intend to debate it, particularly in my honourable friend's absence.

If he were here we would likely initiate a bit of a debate but my self respect simply will not allow me to let his statements go unchallenge d. The fact is that we were not as flood conscious back in 1950 as we are now. This is admitted. The fact is that the forecasting of floods was an inexact science then, as it still is, Mr. Chairman. The fact is that we were concerned about the situation at this time of the year.

We did not have an organized flood forecasting committee as there is now, that's one of the developments of the flood of those days, but we did have engineers and qualified people watch ing the situation very carefully at this time of the year and later on, those safeguards were intensified very greatly. I don't intend to carry through with the history of what happened then, but I would like to once again, as I have done before, read into the records something that I think completely refutes what my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP has said.

I think he said a little more last night than he would have said under some circumstances but the fact that he said it, it's on the records and I haven't Hansard before me, but I listened very carefully to his remarks in that connection and if I didn't make some disclaim of the. statements he made, I certainly would not feel comfortable about it.

As I mentioned in the middle of March or earlier, there were forecasts being made by people that were competent, maybe not paying the same attention that we've done now, but by April when this House was drawing towards a close, the situation was quite actively under review and it was being discussed in this House. Without going into any detail on the matter at all, I want to read one statement to the House which was taken from the record because as some of the honourable members know, we can remind them of this at times, we had the recording equipment in the days before this government was in office.

We did not have a Hansard, that is correct, but we had a practice that any time that any member asked for any speech to be taken off, it was taken off and in the interests of economy -- I think perhaps some people will agree that if we had no other qualification of merit, some people ascribed a measure of economy to us at least.

Well in the inte rests of economy and co-operation we had it a rule, which the operator of the machine, who is the same man as he was then, will recall and verify that when a speech was taken off for any member of the House, then a copy of it was also delivered to the Leader of the other groups in the House. This was a satisfactory arrangement. It was partly because of this

March 9, 1966 791 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd) ..•.... arrangement that I myself used to argue, rather definitely, that I thought a Hansard was unnecessary. This was one of the many occasions where I was wrong. I have admitted since that the Hansard is well worthwhile. It has the weaknesses that I expected it would have. It has increased the reading of speeches. It has not had the circula tion that the people who advocated it believed it would have, but I was still wrong in opposing it, because I think it's well worthwhile.

But we do have some records of what took place at that time and without taking the time of the House to argue over what had happened in the interval, I give this assurance which I can abundantly prove if anybody wants me to take the time to do it, that from the middle of March, well before the middle of March on, we were actively concerned with making preparations for what even then appeared to be a possibility of a flood. And I read from a recording of the de bate in the L�gislative Assembly of April 13, 1950, by the Honourable Errick Willis in reply to Mr. Shewman. Mr.

Willis was the Minister of Public Works at that time. At that time the engineering staff in general was in that department because they were the people who were charged with the, not only the forecasting, but with most of the mechanical operations and the mechanical processes of the government. Mr. Willis was the Minister directly in charge of keeping in touch with the situation. This is the record as it came from the machine: Honour able Errick ll<'. Willis ili reply to Mr. Shewman: "Mr.

Speaker, insofar as the possibility of a flood is concerned, may I assure the House that we have placed every facility of our depart ment at the disposal of a Committee in order to do everything possible should we have a flood. We are completely alerted so far as flood is concerned." And this, I interpolate, Mr. Chairman, this was the fact, and I can prove that from other sources.

Continuing with the quotation: ''We have had meetings with the engineers of the City of Winnipeg; we are in touch with the Red Cross; we are now seeking the co-operation of the Army; we have dynamite; we have done everything that we know of in case that there is a flood. So far there is no definite assurance that there will be a flood but I desire to say that we are doing everything that we know of in order that, should the flood come, we will be ready." And just to complete what happens to show on this particular transcription, the question is asked by Mr. McDowell: "I would like to ask this question.

Is the same precaution being given to the Assiniboine River as to the Red River. MR. WILllS: The answer is yes, but the expecta tion is not that there will be a flood on the Assiniboine. " Mr. Chairman, if apology were necessary, I would apologize for taking the time of the House to arg�ue this matter. I do so only because of what the �ader of the New Democratic Party said last night. I have never raised the question of the conduct of the flood in this House in my time. Some people think that I have not raised it because I'm afraid to discuss it. This is not correet. I'm not afraid to discuss it.

I don't believe there's any particular advantage in rehashing: these old historical facts. I don't know that there's any particul ar advantage in opening old sores; but to the extent that anybody wants to rehash them or anybody wants to open the old sores, then I'm prepared to discuss them, and the remarks that my honourable friend, the ll.eader of the New Democratic Party made last night are. untrue and unfair and unreasonable. HON; GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Rockwood-lberville): Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to just give a little information to the House with respect to questions that were raised last night and some that haven't been raised yet but I expect they will be if I don't provide the answers. In reply to the Honourable Member for Burrows, the right-of-way for old PTH 59 north was 133 feelt wide; the right-of -way for the new four-lane highway is 300 feet wide. The floodway purchased the right-of-way froin the old Provincial Trunk Highway 59 east to the floodway and the

section along the east side of the floodway. The Highways Department pur chased the right-of-way between the Perimeter Road and the junction with the new PTH 59. There was one other piece of information and this I think will maybe make the Member for Lakesid•3 feel a little better, and that is that .•... --(Interjection)--. MR. CAMPBELL: I feel okay. MR . BUTTON: Well, this should make you feel better because it's good news for your constituency or part of your constituency.

You will recall that we have had some debate in this House at different times about what should be done to compensate the municipalities in which these large flood control works were located, to compensate them to help ease the impact of a loss of revenue due to the use of large acreage of Iand or large assessments in construction of these projects. There were three

792 March 9, 1966 · (MR. HUTTON cont'd) ....•... large projects: 12, 000 acres involved in the Red River Flood way; several thousand acres involved in the Portage Diversion and rather more acreage in volved in the Shellrriouth Reservoir. A year ago I revealed the policy that the government intended to follow at that time - a formula, which would give the municipalities, the affected municipalities, a grant which was calculated on the basis of the difference between one percent of their revenues and the actual loss that took place.

Now this formula -- then this was for a five year period and it was dis counted to a lump sum. This formula left out certain of the municipalities; two municipalities in northwestern Manitoba, Shell River and Shellmouth were all right; Springfield was included in this formula and St. Clements, but St. Vital, Ritchot, St. Boniface and Portage la Prairie were left out. We had a delegation from-- first of all this formula we arrived at was discussed with the municipalities concerned. Those who gained under it were quite satisfied; those who were left out were rather unhappy.

A delegation from the municipality of Portage waited upon the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, myself, and I believe the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and they brought their legal counsel with them in the person of Mr. Millar who pre sented a very excellent brief on behalf of the Municipality of Portage la Prairie.

So excellent was that brief that the government reconsidered, knowing of the attitude of other municipalities that had been consulted prior to that and in the face of the case that was made by the Municipality of Portage la Prairie, the Rural Municipality of Portage la Prairie, we reconsidered and we have now determined that we will pay a grant which represents the total difference betweeen what the revenues were and what they are -a grant in lieu of taxes.

This will be done through the Department of Municipal Affairs, under the new legislation and amendments which were brought in as a result of the Michener Com mission recommendation. However, two of these municipalities will be worse off under this new arrangement than they were under the original formula.

Because we negotiated with them on the basis of the previous formula, we have decided that we will settle with them, the two municipalities, on the basis of the formula that was negotiated, and that in the case of the other municipalities, we will settle with them on the basis of grants in lieu of taxes on government projects. I want to explain that under the municipal legislation a provincial waterway, a water course or a lake that has been designated as a provincial waterway, is exempt from taxes.

The way this will be ·handled is that we will delay proclamation of these waterways as provin cial waterways until such time as the grants have been made available to the municipalities affected. In other words, for three years -- not more than three years. We do this very simply, when we go out - we're building these projects, by not declaring them provincial waterways they are eligible for grants in lieu of taxes under the municipal legislation. After a three year period we will proclaim them as provincial waterways and there will be no further taxes paid on them.

But in approaching it on this basis we feel that we have arrived at a much more equitable arrangement with the municir>alities and we have not discriminated against the municipality simply because it happened to have a larger assessment. MR . CAMPB ELL: Mr. Chairman, . .... that the Honourable the Minister has given could I ask him, Mr. Chairman, tl the counsel and solicitor of the Rural Municipality of Portage la Prairie were satisfied with that arrangement? MJ;t. HUTTON: I must say they don't know about it. You're the first to know about it. We're telling the Legislature about it today. MR .

CAMPBEL L: I have very great confidence in the competence of the counsel of the Rural Municipality of Portage la Prairie, and their solicitor, and tl they are satisfied then I would be. I certainly can undertake on their behalf that they'll be more satisfied now than they were before, but as to whether this will meet them completely I would not like to hazard a guess because -- do I understand my honourable friend to suggest that there will be a grant paid only for three years? I would think, I would guess that he would have them back to see him again.

After all, is my honourable friend not taking the land, the taxation potential of that land away from them for a:ll time to come? MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps it might be as well if we explained to the House what the Municipality of Portage were asking in the brief that they presented.

Their complaint was that not only were they excluded under the previous formula but that where lands were acquired by the province within a year and where the taxes were not paid, even though they might have some right against the previous owner of the property in many cases it was uncollectable because they couldn't exercise that right against the land which is the usual remedy for the collection of taxes.

March 9, 19 1)6 793 (MR.

SME LLIE cont 1d. ) Also, :lf the expropriation took place after the budget of the school district had been comp leted and the mill rate established, the municipality was then responsible for paying to the school district the amount that would have been raised against that property if it had re mained as taxable property, even although it came off the taxable side of the tax roll and the municipality collected no funds; so that therefore not only were the municipality out of pocket the amount of their own levy that they did not collect, but they also had to pay out of their own funds to the school district the amount that would have been raised on that property.

So in g;oing to determine what was fair compensation, I think it •s not really in the public interest that taxation should be - or grants in lieu of taxes should be made on large projects in the nature of reservoirs and river diversions that are placed there by governm ent for the protection of other property in the area in that municipality or in other municipalities.

But it certainly :ls reasonable to suggest that the governm ent should pay such grants to the munici pality as are necessary to alleviate the first impact of that expropriation, and this proposal we believe will adequately meet the needs of municipalities to recover from that impact.

At least they will know the year in which the property is to be removed from the taxable side of the roll and they will not be put in the position where they will be budgetting for monies that they will not receive, and they will not be put in the position any longer where they would have to pay over to school districts monies that they don •t actually collect. MR. CAMPB ELL: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable the Minister started out by saying that he thought this would make me feel better. I did feel better at the start; I am feeling worse as the discussion proceeds however.

I must confess that I had hoped for something better following the representations of the Rural Municipal Council and their solicitor, because isn 't it a fa et - I haven •t looked at the correspondence for months actually - but isn •t it. a fact that the Municipality of Portage la Prairie loses by this arrangem ent something like $8, 000 annually. Isn 1t it in the nature of $8, 000 per year? MR.

SMELLIE: I think that we would have to take the brief of the rural municipality and go over it item by item to reach that amount of money, and they were including in the amount of money that they were going to lose in taxation all of the properties which were taken not only for diversions of waterways but properties taken for roads and every other activity of government. On some of the properties that they were com plaining about, where properties were taken for other purposes - for example, wildlife managem ent areas - those are subject to different criteria. Similarly, roads are subject to different criteria.

There never have been grants paid in lieu of taxes for properties taken for roads, because of course the roads provide a benefit to the municipality itself and reduces the responsibility of the municipality for the construction and maintenance of roads. So these other things were not taken into ac count but only the things in the nature of provincial waterways, reservoirs and things of that nature.

When Portage took into account the new property taken over for the Trans-Canada High way -t he extra two lanes - the bypass around the City of Portage la Prairie, it's true that they could reach a figure approaching that which the Honourable Member for Lakeside. men tioned, but the property for the diversion itself was not quite that much. MR. CAMP BE LL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to delay the estimates by arguing this at great length and certainly the Rural Municipality of Portage la Prairie can carry on discussion on it, but it seems to me that where the two Honourable Ministers make the comparison that these are public works that are for the benefit of everybody -- (Interjection) -- well, this is a decision that's made by this governm ent though, not made by the Rural Municipality of Portage la Prairie.

If my honourable friends want to have a wildlife refuge or something of that kind, okay, but for goodness sake, don't take land that is now revenue-bearing to Portage la Prairie and pay nothing because of the loss of taxes to them. However, I'll be glad to report to the municipal officials� MR. SMELLIE: .•........ grants in lieu of taxes on any land. MR. CAMPBE LL: I beg your pardon? MR. SMELLIE: My honourable friend never made grants in lieu of taxes on any land. MR. CAMPBE LL: Oh yes, we did. Oh yes, we did. It's true that for many years, for many yearB we didn't.

As a matter of fact, just to prove to my honourable f:(iend how pro gressive we were, it was during the time that I had the honour to head the government that we instituted the policy of making grants - rather economical ones, I admit - but at least we es tablished the principle. We established the principle, and some day, Mr. Chairman, some day

794 March 9, 19 66 (MR. CAMPBE LL cont•d. ) .. .. when we•re not as rushed for time, I•l l be glad to educate my honourable friends as to a lot of progressive measures that we introduced in our time, things that they apparently have forgotten. In the meantime, I do want to thank the Honour able Minister of Agriculture for conveying this information to us and I expect the discussion will be continued. MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Chairman, I accept the correction and I• ll be glad to have a les son from my honourable friend at his convenience. MR. CAMP BE LL: I think, Mr.

Chairman, that my honourable friend could benefit by such an experience. MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Chairman, I am certain the honourable member is right and I will appreciate his advice and consideration. MR. CAMPBE LL: I'm so glad we get one of the Honourable Ministers to admit that I'm right about something, Mr. Chairman. MR. SMELLIE: It's so seldom, Mr. Chairman, that I couldn't help but acknowledge it on this occasion. A MEMBER: This is a mutual admiration society. MR. TANCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, seeing that the Honourable Minister is in such a happy mood, I think I•ll have to make my annual plea on behalf of the residents upstream, and I hope that he is still as pleasant as he is when I am through. We know that Manitoba is spending mi llions of dollars on the construction of the. Winnipeg Floodway and I have nothing against it, but even when this floodway is completed, the residents south of Ste. Agathe will never get any direct protection as far as they are concerned, and I am talking about the residents upstream from Ste. Agathe all the way down to Emerson.

The towns are such towns as Emerson, Dominion City, Letellier, St. Joseph, St. Jean, Morris, Lowe Farm, Sewell, Arnaud and there are many other smaller towns and villages, and it •s not only the towns and villages who suffer but hundreds of farmers who suffer these damages and untold misery. They bear the brunt of flooding days before Winnipeg is even affected. Now these residents of this huge area will still be subjected to these miseries and losses caused by flooding of the Red River, and I don•t see -- I haven't heard the Minister mention these or tell us what protection is being contemplated for them.

What is this govern ment proposing to these people by way of future protection? We1ve heard some mention made of some kind of insurance; nothing more has been mentioned about that. It seems that those people are completely neg lected. Some mention has been made of ring dikes and the Honour able Minister says it's highly dangerous, and I agree with him to a certain extent. But it may be possible to build these ring dikes and still evacuate the people, then at least there wouldn •t be the danger of life, but there may be danger to property.

They could be evacuated and if the ring dikes hold, I would assume that severe losses would be prevented. Now what proper compensation would the government propose after the flooding? I would like to hear the Minister explain this and tell my people what is being proposed as far as future protection for these people is concerned. MR. SHEWMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the question I would like to ask the Minister, because the question has been asked of me, and it has been stated as almost a fact that the report on the investigation into measures for the reduction of the flood hazard for Winnipeg, and there were three recomm endations made. One was the diversion around Greater Winnipeg and the other one was ;for a dike to be built from Ste. Agathe in a northwesterly direction to Domain. Now I have heard through other channels that the government is going to proceed with this dike. Is that a fact - from Ste. Agathe in a northwestern direction to Domain ? MR.

HUTTON: No, absolutely not. That proposal was rejected by the Royal Commis sion that was established to examine the benefits and costs of various proposals. It was examined and it was rejected. There were two reasons for rejecting it. One was that it would turn southern Manitoba into a big lake; and the second was that if you ever got a flood that exceeded the protection it would create, it would become a major hazard, because if it ever broke down in the face of a flood that was larger than it was constructed to contain, then you'd have a real disaster. MR. TANCHAK: Isn't the Minister going to answer?

Was there any consideration of some kind of in�;�urance? I•ve also heard, not directly, from some of the people - official mem bers - that even relocation of certain areas was considered. I know that not all town sites could be relocated, but I am referring to the Town of Emerson. I think that the main business

section could be relocated and it may prove less expensive to relocate the business

March 9 , 1 H66 795 (MR. TANCHAK cont 'd. ) part of this town than to pay compens ation after the floods . I would like the Minister to give us an answer. Was there any consideration as far as some kind of insuran ce,. relocation, or any other protection? MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, the department has been working with the Town of Emerson with a view to determining what protective measures could be taken there that would be safe and would be practical. Now one of the proposals of the study ma de of the Red River was that we: might ring dike these communities.

The trouble with a ring dike is that it's again a trap such as the proposed Ste. Agathe detention base, because if the ring dike were ever topped, it would be almost certain death for people who were ca ught in there. However, as I say, this past summer the department has been working closely with the Town of Emerson to see what could be done to protect this community against lesser floods which would be prac tical, which would be sa fe, and which would remove the almost annual hazard of flooding to some extent in the community.

Negotiations are - I shouldn •t say negotiations - but discus sions have gone on between the Town of Morris and the department. The whole ma tter of the advantages and dis advant ages of ring diking were discussed with them. Some considera tion has been given to other programs that might be followed to improve the posi tion of these towns, in particular Morris , with respect to flood-fighting. Nothing con clusive has been arrived at.

There is some merit in a town like Morris in adopting at this time a pro��ram of building above a certain level, that is. us ing fill and getting houses and business establishm ents raised as new construction takes place in the town, but nothing con clusive has been arrived at in terms of providing adequate flood-fighting bulwarks against the kind of floods that we can expect in the valley. MR.

TANCHAK: At the time I was making my questions, the Honourable Minister was discussi ng something with the Minister of Hi ghways -- something must have been important- and I mentioned the fact that some of these people feel that ring dikes could be ma de to work, providing, af ter they are built, the people would be evacuated and there wouldn •t be loss of life and jus:t take a chance on protecting the property. He didn't answer that. That wasn' t discusse d. MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I haven 't heard this particular aspect of the argument.

I would say off-hand though that once you put a dike up there, there is real danger that the people are going to want to trust that dike and the very fact that the dike is there is a trap for them. . . ; . . continued on next page

796 March 9, 1966 MR. CHAIRMAN: Resol ution 18 -- passed; 19 -- passed; 20 -- paSsed. Department of Educ ation. MR . JOHNSON : Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a short statement before launching the committee into the detailed consideration of these estimates. Traditionally, March, it is said, if it comes in like a lion it goes out like a lamb ; well Educa tion Week came in like a lion and I'm hopeful it will go out like a lamb this Friday night, but maybe I'm presumptuous to assume that it wi ll go out like a lamb as we direct our attention to the department's activitie s.

Naturally, it is with a heavy sense of responsibility that I on behalf of my co lleagues present the answer for the stewardship in the past year and try and explain the program that is before you in these estimates, especially at this time in the development of our province when all of us realize the tremendous importance of education, which is virtually exploding in this time of change in North America.

Actually, I haven't picked up a daily paper since we last sat that there isn •t an articl e dealing with ma tters educational, where there isn't some thing provoc ative, and rather than breaking out in generalized urticaria, or hiv es, I think one must 'look upon this as an extremely healthy sign because all this discussi on and debate can only lead to a very much cl oser exami nation of a vast and challenging area of endeavour. During the past year I can report to the House that it has been one of intense activity.

We have really a constant reorganization going on within the department to cope with what is a veritable revolution in activity, and in attitude, in practically every phase of our department's activiti es, and from an examination as we will be doing when legislation come s before us of our present local administrative struct ure, new curricul um development, where there are so many breakthroughs being made which I would hope to report to you in the next week, and new and challenging horizons and manpower developments.

Certa inly the announcement over the past few weeks is of tremendous importance to the department in carrying out its function in the area of manpower development. I want to say at the outset that the departmental offic ials have carried out their responsi bi lities with dedication and with imagination and vigor. I think Manitobans can be extremely proud of the top people in the Department of Educ ation and the teaching staff in our institutions and all those who ca rry on the day to day functions of the department, because they are dedi cated people and it is a pleasure to be assoc iated with them.

I may say that in dealing with the other provinces, our people in the Department of Educ ation are most highly respected at all levels.

I know the honourable members wish to give the cl osest examination to this vast appro priation , and to assist in this regard I thought it might be useful for the members of committee to have in their hands a list of what I consider the highlights of the department's activities in the past year and the highlights of the coming year, and if some of our officials are within earshot, I would ask them to distribute these mimeographed sheets which I have numbered and indexed for your ready reference, which I think will bear out from the most cursory glance the statements that I have mentioned of the intense activity over the past year in so many areas and some of the highlights of the coming year as I see them.

I may also say that in the past year the department have carried out these programs , as I say, with a tremendous amount of work and I cannot commend them too highly. I wish to point out at this time also that the department is in almost con stant touch and consul tation with trustee organizations, the teachers society executive and sub-committe es of that organization, and with many individuals.

When you realize that we have the Advisory Committee to the Department of Educa tion; the Development Committ ees in connection with each of the new institutions we are developing, when we actually have advisory committees to every trade and technology that has been developed; you wi ll understand that -- and in addition to this of course, the Indian Affairs people; other departments within government, especiall y the Department of Labour, both provinc ially and federally, who are in charge of the Federal Provincial Technical Training Agreement; and of course the 400 teachers who serve on the Curriculum Committee of the Department - I think you can readily understand that, as I said, many Manitobans are heavily involved in the department's activi ties.

All the curriculum changes which are going on are not the brainwaves of the Minister of Educa tion or the depart ment per se; they are the combined efforts and work of many many people. I think in addition to the highlights that I asked to be distributed, I would also like to distribute at this time - which I probably could have done in the last few days - but I thought each member should have a copy of one of these, the "Guidance Service News Letter, "w hich is now being produced by our Supervisor of Guidance in the department. There are some very

March 9, 19613 797 (MR. JOHNSON, cont'd) .... excellent articles in here on the engineering technol<ogy and othe r technologie s at the MIT, the concept at The Pas and Bran don, the courses that will be going on, the philosophy behind these institutions; and there's a very interesting articl e on appre nticeship in Manit ob a that explains it very well; the business course s; practical nursing and so on.

We are most pleased in the department with the activitie s of our supervisor who is work ing closely with the teache rs throughout the province now, and in the Highlights we indicate that we'll have more to say about this under that appropr iation . I think prob ably -- I will also ask the pages to circu late one of those Guidance Brochu res. Incidentally, I think it would be ad visable to put every MLA on the mailing list of this particular bulletin, beca use if the cal ibre of

article keeps up such as this, I think it will help all of us. In the Highlights , apart from the Departme ntal Highlights which I am having distributed, I wo uld like to -- I think pro babl y the highlight of the highest significance in the past year was the am algamation of the two trustee organizations into one vigorous and articulate body, not that the oth ers were not both vigorous and articu late , but that this happy am algamation spells well for education in the future with one strong trustee voice .

The new executive was forme d, as you know, around June 20th or 21 st last, they are an excellent organization and we are happy to be working with them as closely as we are . I think we should also recognize that the past President of the Urban , Mr. A. McCo nklin is now one of the Vice Presidents of our Canadian Association of Schoo l Trustees and a Miss Redmond is third Vice President of the Canadian Teachers Federation. I think this indicate s that in our province the leaders in the field of the teache rs society and our trustee orga nizations are active in these af fairs at the national level.

I think another matter which isn't in the Highlights is something which I should report on to the Ho use, beca use it was necessary to guarantee an amendme nt to the Act to make it possible for the TRAF fund to be integrated with the Canada Pension Plan before the 1st of January . I think we came to mutually satisfactory arrange ments there and the trustees were assured that the necessary amendme nt would be presented to this Legislature . This reall y means that the $60 a year which trustees had to pay the teache r before is now assumed by this fund .

I know especially the member from Emerson and I, and I am sure all members of the House , shar;�d with pleasure the successful vote in the boundary division. It has meant that a board has been forme d, an el ection has been held and a division board has been created.

I think it is doub ly significant in the fact that it has resulted in the province with the Frontier Division in the past year; it has resulted in an admi nistrative structure at the high school for the admi nistration of secon dary education in every part of the province where it is practicable to do so, and I think is the structure which, with our trustee and teacher orga nizations, we can launch in the coming yea r an intensive educational campaign to bring to the people at the local level the advanta ges as we see them of larger local ad ministrative machine ry and the develop ment of single district divisions, which I think is a time when we should pursue this vigor ously beca use it is in concert with the development over the next five yea,rs of technical vocational schools throughout our provi nce.

In the next few months we intend, as I say, to be heavily invo lved with the trustee teache r organizations and all those who will lend their support in presenting legislation which I hope will receive your considera tion during this session.

I should point out that there is one thing I would just like to say as the Minister, that I think Boundary Division e11.1Jerience taught me a lesson personally and it was something I hadn 't quite appre ciated before to this extent, name ly, that as the member for Emerson knows, we had I think about four teen meetings prior to the calli ng of a vote in the are a, fo llowed by anothe r fourteen meetings throughout the proposed division, and for the first time had teachers organi za tions, trustees and departmental peopl e on the same pla tform advising the peopl e of what we thought was a very desirable thing for them to have , name ly, a large school division.

I think the thing here was, that here we have our peopl e who are busily engaged in carry ing out an intensive prog ram, adm inistering an intensive program at the departmental level, involve d till one and two in the morning - and certainly they're not complaining and neither am I as to the hours and so on - but I do think that these peopl e have been going out and meeting with local boards, I find since 1947 , talking to local groups - sometimes five show up, some times there's a big meeting - talking about the benefits of consolid ation and assisting the people in understanding the need in their opinion for these change s and so on.

I think it'll take us another 20 years in some parts of our province , and I don't say that critically, but I think it's a

798 March 9, 1966 (MR JOHNSO N, cont'd) .... matter of getting and communicating with these people and sharing with them our concern and our hopes for education in the province. I think it is far better to bring forth some bolder legislation - I'm convinced of that fact - but of course it must be preceded by a vigorous campaign in bringing the facts to the people at the local level before we can ask them to do this.

In the Interlake area in that connection, in connection with the ARDA studies and the Minister. of Agricu lture has reported on this, the people, as I said a few nights ago, have identified education as their number one priority under this program. During the past year we have had a group of our people who are connected with the ARDA committee, inspectors in the Interlake area, studying the situation throughout that part of our province. These people have found that consolidation just is not possible in many of the outlying areas .

It's an impossible situation unless we were to come in with some sort of a Boundaries Commission or administrative organization that would set up desirable eonsolidations, implement them and bring about some reduction in the number of one room schools . There are over 100 one room schools in those three divisions and we're running into increasingly complex problems. So legislation will be brought before you suggesting, as a pilot project over that region, a scheme of this kind.

We would have to involve the trustee and teacher organizations in such a pilot project and everyone we could, the ARDA committee of the Inter lake made up of people throughout that region, both municipal and divisional trustee and local trustee people , in bringing aemaster plan before the people of that region, sitting in a commission to look at desirab le boundaries - I think there's a lot of information that has already been assimilated by our inspectors - and implement what is really a must in 1966, and I think this approach will, I hope , commend itself to you.

I would like to bring out the fact that in the estimates, in connection with this pilot project, is a sum of money to assist, by means of a formula, the very low assessed portions in that area, assist them and make it attractive enoug h for them to motivate them to make a decision in favour of what we have in mind. This formula will be presented at the time I have the legislation before you, or I'll try and have it during estimates if possibl e.

I should say that I'm the first to admit this will not be easy, but I also would report to the House that the potential is exciting and I think certain steps are absolutely necessary in certain parts of that area; and I think if it works in this area, we should give consideration to extension in the future.

In that connection, I've discussed this matter with the federal authorities and in connection with their manpower mobility program, pilot program that they would like to introduce in that area, I think there's every expectation that we will get a great deal of support - I just don't know how much - in bringing about this on this pilot basis.

I think one of the other interesting things -b efore some members get debating too vigor ously at cert ain things in the curriculum development in the General Course and so on - I would like to report to you that our Articulation Committee, that is the committee working through the curri culum and the Department of Education, have been working very closely over the past year with the University of Manitoba.

In the brochure that I have distributed, you will notice that the Senate has passed a motion directing their various faculties at the university to look at the proposal which was made by the Articula tion Committee. In short, that proposal was that there must be more flexibility between the various courses at the high school level and each department at the university is being asked to look at the General Course and the Univer sity Entrance Course and their integration in that area.

For example, their specific proposal is that the University Entrance Course level - if you are going into say law - I'd better say Medicine - you would take the University Entrance Sciences and you might take the General Course His tory and English. I think this kind of arti culation is important; I think this Legislature would favour it.

This gives different streams and more flexibility at the high school leve l without watering down academic content, and I think we only have to look at the John Deutsch Report on the Economic Council of Canada to see that this is re ally one of the things that they're referri ng to. I would also say that other provinces in Ca nada are taking very bold steps along these lines. Other provinces now have courses similar to our General Cours e.

Certa in universities in this country are admitting students with much less than we require for University entrance, and while this is not an academic matter that I don't want to prognosticate on and so on, I do feel that as legislators and members of this Assembly we have the responsibility, and I think are most interested, in seeing that as many doors as possible are open to our boys and girls. On the one hand, the standards aren't so rigid that many good students are excluded from '

March 9, 19 66 799 (MR. JOHNSON , cont'd) .... pursuing a career in diffe rent fie lds; at the same time we want to maintain the excellence of our high school program. I think these prof essional people who are working In this fie ld are very mindfu l of these several fac tors and I'm sure we can count on them to pursue this whole matte r.

But this simply ,opens the doors to many exciting ideas and I thought I would mention it to you. · Also in that connection we have had wonde rful co-opera tion and participa tion by the affi liated coll eges and the university peopl e in working with the Chairman of the Council of Higher Learning. They are examining the entire area of post-seco ndary education.

All the mate rial on eommunity coll eges and several concepts in that regard, concepts of junior colleges and so on, and how they wou ld apply in our particular provi nce, are matte rs which are before the chairman and his committee and I am hopeful that - I've had no report as yet and I don't aetually know just when they will report - but the meetings have been going on weekly and I think we can expect some future recommendations from that body.

As I say, there are many concepts of community coll eges and I would hope that the program that we'll be outlining to you at the vocational high school level will comme nd itself to you as something that can be integrated into any future programming that may occur in this area.

I would like to also say that during the past two years the departm ent offic ials have been working - are most concerned about the particular course which Manitob a should follow in developing vocational educ ation fa cilities, the diffe rent concepts of composite high schools, the concept of regional and vocational residential high schoo ls, etc.

On the basis of ext ensive working pap«�rs which they developed in this matte r, it was felt ad visable to have some outside consu ltation in this regard, and in that conne ction we called a conf erence for a week last Novem ber to which we invited the forme r Chairman of the Royal Commi ssion on Education, Dr. MacFa rla ne; we invited Mr. Ford, the head of the Director of Technical Vocational for Canada; we asked Dr. Wes Lorime r; we had Dr. McCa rthy, the Deputy Minister of Unive rsity Affairs for Ontario , and Mr.

Lorne Johnson, the Director of Program Branch in the Depart ment of Educa tion, Ontario - these two men were the two men whom the Minister of Education in Ontario recommended as most knowle dgeable in this particular are a and he was good enough to allow them to come out to Manitob a and participate at this conf erence - Mr. Cochrane , the Deputy Minister of Labour; and the three assistant deputies and the Deputy Minister for Manit ob a.

As a result of examining the mate rial in Manitob a, that is the development to date in discussions with our curriculum people who are devising courses and so on, and with the research avail abl e - and I would point out that a great deal of info rmation conce rning job opportunitie s and so on are ava ilable to all provinces from the national level, and of course our almost constant and daily contacts with our own business leaders and our own industries in Manitob a ha.ve indicate d certa in things to us - and with all this assembled, these people re commende d that in our province they felt the most desirable approach was to cr:ea te inte r divisional or app roximate ly -- they estimate d, as an estimate , po ssibly 10 regional vocational high schools with residences where necessary.

Naturally, we don 't want to build residences any greate r than we have to , but it was the opinion of all, and the federal auth ority was on the conf erence, it was his opinion that favour abl e consido3ra tion would be given to a master plan such as this. The fed eral peopl e insist, as you ma y recall, that these schools have at least five to 700 student capacity in order that they may offer enoug h alterna tive opportunitie s in the vocational fie ld. In the se estimate s before you, provisio n is made for a start on these.

The tentative plan of the gove rnment, as a result of that confe rence and reco mmendations to myself and my collea gues, is that we should initiate a program over the next five years of building at least two a year, and you'll be asked to provide sums to make a start in this are a. I might, for the benefit of the committee while I'm on my feet in this are a, advise you that I had the plea sure of attending the American Vocational Association meeting for three da ys.

It was just a matte r of going down and coming back to speak at the Canadian luncheon there, but f;he reason for going too was beca use the American people from New York especiall y - the State of New York -h ave been up here on two or three occasi ons now. We"ve come to know these gentlemen and they ad vised me - and they have been directed here by the federal authoritie s - that our Manitoba Institute of Technology here is an excellent facility and they are most impressed as one of the best in the country .

They also advi sed me there that of all the technical-voc ational schools they had seen and this is the whole continent - that the Tec-Voc in Winnipeg was a very excel lent institution.

800 March 9, 196 6 (MR JOHNSON, cont'd) .... And I thought this was a very wonderful thing to hear. One of the men there , for examp le , was Dr. Keller . He is head of technical training for New York; he 's now at Stanford Unive rsity, advis ing in the State of California; and when I mentioned in confidence to him the kind of program that had been recommended to us , our fear maybe of res idential institutions of this kind, he felt this was a first-class type of program to be bringing forth.

He said, "You'll be ahead of many ju risd ictions , including the State of Cali fornia who have no technical-vocational high schools to compare with Tec-Voc here, " which is most interesting to learn, and this was from a man of some stature. The doubling of the ca pacity at M. I. T. again is a tremendous move. This will be up to 2, 000 more students in that facility in an Institute of Applied Arts.

The concept of this confer ence was that we build a sepa rate institution for the Arts -b ased technologies; such things as computer training, data processi ng, such things as busin ess education, our teacher training program, secretarial science, and this sort of thing; and free our spa ce in our present M. I. T. where the sci ence -oriented things are exploding. I might just mention that this would give you a division of Applied Arts and a division of Indus trial Science. In Ontario they si mply are going to be call ing these complexes in that province Community Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology.

So you reall y have exactly the sa me kind of development here as you graft on adu lt education. And in that connection we're getting into adult education. I think in this institute there will be provis ion for basic up-grading courses and adu lt day educ ation as a pre-employment measure and possibl y on a full-time basis, and then you really have a community college, but I would await the Council of Higher Learn ing in looking at this , just what to call these facilitie s.

I want to point out, while I think that some of the change s that are before us are obviousl y exciting and challenging, I nonetheless feel that the educational system of Manitoba in the pas t has served the people well. After all, in the thirties and forties all that was required to get your fair share of Cana da's goods was to be literate.

Today this concept is disa ppearing We've just si mply got to bring every child to the maximum of his potential because to be adaptab le in the future we have to do what we can to maintain his interest and keep him in the system until he's ca pable of going into a trade or technology or on to higher education. With respect to our Junior Vocational schoo l, tenders of which will be let any day now if they have n't been, I would like to anno unce to the House that the committee formed in Winnipeg and the government have agr eed that this school should be named after the late R. B.

Russell, and it is our intention to anno unce to you today that this will be known as the R.B. Russe ll Vocational School in the centre of Winnipeg. Mr. Russell's long period of service in the labour and community af fairs of this province is being rec ogniz ed in naming this school after him in this fashion. It was the rec ommendation of both the committee working with us within the City of Win nipeg and of the government of the Province of Manitoba. We don 1t want to call it the Junior School - it will be the R.B . Russell Vocational School.

I might sa y now that I'm sure that there are several matters which honourable members opposite wish to bring up. I just would like to sa y a coupl e of things while I am on my feet and the House is in Session, before announcing the contract public ly of the fourth floor of the M. LT . which you know has to be proceeded with to accommodate incre ased enrollment. An award of the contract has been made. The bids came in a little lower than we an ticipated and the contract has been awarde d to Malcom Construction for $944, 046. 00. This will add a fourth floor and over 400 spa ces in that institution.

I would also like to mention that -- I mentioned basi c up-grading and activities within the department in our north country.

I would like to inform the House that there are now 14 class es, construction cla sses , in basic carpe ntry and construction skills being conducted at such points as Cross Lake , Norway House , Sandy Ba y, The Pas , Fort Alexande r, Brokenhead, Oak River, Berens River, and these courses are conducted under this federal-provincial agre ement initiated with our placement officer working in Department of Welfare , Indian Affai rs personne l, and our Director of Ba sic Training; he's now got 17 cl asses going and the Indian Affairs Bra nch are going to give , I und erstand, a set of tools to ea ch candidate as he finishe s his course , because these are the kind of basi c skills so much in demand in the hea vy construction that will be forthcoming in the northern part of our provin ce.

At the same time the province is opera ting as of toda y 11 up-grading classes on reserv es. This is the basi c up grading in science, maths and English. It has rece ived wonderful rece ption throughout these communities and, as I sa y, we have 11 in opera tion toda y. Well, Mr. Chairman , I know that there must be many questions the honourable members r

March 9, 19613 801 (MR. JOHNSON, cont'd) •.. . would like to ask conce rning the activities of this department. I did not want to be too long in my opening remar ks , but I can assure the Committee that I'll do my best to answer the questions. There's si mply so much material and so much happe ning. I ma y have to reach down pretty far sometimes to come up with one , but if I don't have the ans wer I'll do my best to obtain the ans wer for you. Thank you. MR. TANCHAK: Mr.

Chairman , I listened to the short introduction of the Minister's department a:nd I would sa y that he has a lot to brag about and I wish to congratula te him on trying to bail out the government out of the mess created by the government in the few former years. Now at this time I'd like to refer to the former Minister. I don't think we'll get into fights this year. I notice that he's much happie r in the position he is presently holding and I wish him well, and I'll promise that this will be the only time that I will refer to the former Minister of Education as such.

If I do I'll try to abstain from being personal. If I do refer, I'll refer to the government. Who knows , I may get into some brush with the law and I may come to the Attorney-General for help. So I have to be careful. On behalf of our group I'd like to also express our app recia tion of the contribution given by our civil servants in the fie ld of education. I know, and I notice also that the Minister himse lf is not trying to take all the credit for the work done in this department. He is giving credit to his assi stants and the whole sta:ff in his department.

I wish to express our appre cia tion of the: work that they're doing. They are always very courteous and willing to help us. Sure , sometilmes we don't get the information that we would like to get; sometimes we get the answer that you have to go and see the Minister if you want such and such information. I do not believe this is right; I think that information that members seek should be avai labl e to all members, but I know that their hands are tied because it may be directed to the government or to the Minister.

From time to time we'll be criticiz ing the government for things that the government should have done and didn't do, but I know that most of these civil servants are veterans in their fie lds and they'll not take this as direct criticism of their work. Special good wishe s go to the Assis tant Deputy Ministers , Messrs. Dalton, Davie s and Mr. Lightly. I know these gentlemen well and I'm sure that they will do their utmost to improve education in Manitoba. Now I have a few notes scribbled as the Minister was on his feet, and I notice that he uses the term "expl oding. 11 He's used it several times.

It seems to me that this is familiar because the sam e term was used by the Honourable Minister last year. All I uan sa y is it must be a very expensive firecracke r or skyrocket. It's still sputtering, a:fter a year of exploding. And I'll just ask the Minister, when will it take off? It's just exploding for you. When will it take off? I'm al:so happy that my area, the Boundary School Division, has finally accepted the status of a school division.

I only would sa y that I wish they had done it a little earlier than this, but the circumstances in the cons tituency, the boundarie s of our division were narrowed a bit and it met more with the app roval of the people . I am not going to sa y it was an easy task to convince the people to accept the Boundary Division. I am so rry that I was not able to participate l.n most of the meetings . I was in the hospital for several weeks at the time, at the height of the campaign, but I did my share before. I had several meetings in the Eastern part and I am sure that the Honour abl e Minister has a letter from me.

I gave him my asses sment before the vote, and if he checks back into that letter he'll find that I hit it just about right. I knew which districts will not favour it, and so on. I would also wish to thank the Manitoba Teachers Society for giving us a hand; they did a good job. The Manitoba Trustees Asso· ::: iation also. And thanks go especiall y to the depart mental officials who helped in this campaign, and I sa y special thanks beca use I noticed this time there was a little difference in the campaign. They were frank, very frank.

In fact, I wasn't at that particular meeting, but word came to me that one of these officials - presen tly he's not an official of the department -b ut came up to the people and frankly told them," I am here to brainwash you to accept this. ". That's the term he used - "bra inwash" - and people will accept that. The officials , and also the Minister, they were frank.

When I sa y they were frank , they were not trying to entice the people with that da ngling carrot, the grants that we're going to offer you, spe cial cons ideration insofar as money, the almighty dollar, but this time they stressed the advantages of better education and I congratula te them. Better education, not simply the money, and that's what I liked very much about that campaign. I think it was more down to ea rth and it didn't seem to be this urgency that it must go through, although the:re was -- I wan ted it to go through mysel f, but it wasn 't apparent. ][t was put to

802 March 9, 19 66 (MR. TANCHAK, cont'd) ... • the people, "This is what it is going to do for you, " and if grants were mentioned or the people asked what benefits they would get in terms of dollars and cents , they were told plainly, but there wasn 't this dangling carrot in front of them trying to -- well I can almost say that some of the propaganda in the former campaigns wasn't exactly according to Hoyle because the truth was not always there. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to attend the opening of the schoo l at Cranberry Port age.

At that time I had a commitment made several weeks before which I could not break and I was not there, but I was there this summer and I intend to be there again this coming summer, and I am sure that if I go in and maybe I'll go to the Minister and ask permission to get the people to show me around, I'm sure I'il do it, and I'll do it at my own expense. I am happy to say that I'll be able to save a little money for the taxpayer by going a little later and at my own expense.

It seems to me - well we all know it - that it is the custom here by some members of this House, and they are persistently about the only ones who do it, and that is to refer back to a few years back, and they usually go back to 19 58. I'm going to break the. custom. I'm not going to go back to 195 8; I'll go back to 1959. --(Interjection)-- No, I didn't live then.

Now, if we go back to 1959 the Members will well remember that there were two distinct promises made by the then government, the government in power in 19 59, and if anybody wants to check on that I would refer them to Hansard of 1959 , Page 95 in that Hansard, and I have the direct quotations, the two distinct promi ses, and the ones that counted the most as far as the people are concerned becduse the people are interested in education but they are also tax consci ous too, and here is one quotation; "This plan will provide equal opportunities for chi ldren throughout the Province of Manitoba, " and I like the term that the Honourable Minister used just now.

He didn't say -- he didn't exactly repeat that, but he gave us to understand "wherever it is humanly possible, " but that was not mentioned in 19 59. It was , "The plan will provide equal opportunities for chi ldren throughout the province of Manitoba, " and that is something that we have not achieved up to the present date even though this promise · was made, and I' ll say that this promise has not been kept.

The promise was not kept, and the main reasons, or one of the chief reasons for this was that the government has failed to -- or we could say the government ignored some of the major recommendations of the Royal Commissi on on Education, and the main one was the encouragement, that the then government really encouraged - although they say they do not encourage - but they really encouraged, or they did not forbid, the prolification of small high schools throughout the province of Manitoba, and I say that the government is directly to bl ame for this.

It's no use bl aming the Opposition because the Opposition at that time did not have the same responsibilities as the government had. They know this is a bl under and I'm sure the Honourable Minister will agree with me that this was a blunder, because these smaller high schools cannot provide now the diversified courses that are available in larger schools due to these curricu lum changes and so on, so this is one obstacle that prevented from achieving that purpose of equal opportunity for every child in the province of Manitoba.

Now I may be corrected in this , but according to my assessment of high schools in the Province of Manitoba, reading all the different reports I would say that there are still at least 240 high schools in the Province of Manitoba which are not providing adequate instruction, adequate education in the province, and this tends to nullify this promise that equal opportunity will be given to all the children in the Province of Manitoba.

The government failed to keep this promise because every child in Manitoba does not get an equal opportunity for education even now, after 8 years of these divisions in operation, and I'm not bl aming the present Minister. I know that the present Minister is consci entious about whatever job he undertakes. He's trying to rectify it. That's why I appreciate that the present Minister is trying to bail the government out of the mess that this same government, but not under his leadership as leader of the Department of Education, has done in the past.

Now I mentioned there were two promises that the government failed to keep.

The government has broken those promises, and the second one is , and again I will refer to Hansard, and this is March 1959 Hansard Page 95, the same page, the same Hansard, also a broken promi se, and the promise here was : "It will relieve in large measure the real property from the burden of school finance." In other words , the tax burden wouldn't be as high on real property, and I would say that far from relieving the burden of tax, the government, by its mis management in the past, has increased the burden and increased it tremendously, and I hold the government directl y responsible for breaking this promise.

Whether it was possible to do it, to keep the promise or not, that's beside the point, but the fact is that the government promised

March 9, 1966 803 (MR. TANCHAK, cont1d) •... to do it and the peopl e of Manitob a have failed, and I have statistics here to prove that . They go back -- this time I'll have to go back to U157; the total municipal trures of which the school tax is the major item, in 1957 -- now I'll just give it in rough figure s - was $53 million. That 's in 1957 , the total munic ipal school tax. In 1958 it went up to $56 million; 1959, $60 million; 19 60, $66 million. You notice it jumps from anywhe re from five to about nine million. In 196 1 it was up to $75 million, 1962, $79 million still rising.

In '63 , $84 million ; in '64, $90 million; '65 we hav en't got, but I tried to find out from some of the offic ia ls, and they are telling me it will be close to $100 million, the total munic ipal tax. Now I do not think that the people of Manitob a will take this as relieving the burden of school finandng -- (Interjection)-- I'm just coming to that ; just hold your horses; be pati ent. This isn't relieving the burden in large measure . I would say that this is increasing the burden of trumtion in great measure , beca use in tho se few years this has alm ost double d.

Who knows but by the end of 1966 it will be doub led, but the gove rnment -- the Member just mentione d, "W ell what about the ••.. " I presume he mentioned the tax rebate . The govern ment will sa;y-, "What about the tax rebate ?" This did alle viate the tax burden, yes, but in the same year it almos t went $10 million, the tax rebate amounte d, this was told us, would amount to ahout $10 million.

I don't know the exact figure s, but at the same time trures had risen by about $10 million in that one year, so although it is a help the tax burden is continually rising, contrary to what has been promised by the governm ent that the tax burden wftlbe relieved and ldo not attribute it all to education but as I said before , the major item is the school finan ce s, and peopl e were led to believe that if they accepted this government the tax burden would be lighter. That was a broken promi se. Tho se are the two promises that I mentione d.

There are other things;: we will go through them as we go on in Estimate s, but these are the two main promises, in my opinion the most important on es. They were not kept by the present governme nt. I'm not going to say too much about the White Paper. I see he's got anothe r white paper before us again. This time it wasn't termed as such but it is still white pa per. I'm going to say I'm not :too impressed with the White Paper on Education that was presented to us forme rly, and I say thi.s sincerely. In my opinion it is just a fa ce-sa ving docume nt.

After a long period of inaction the gov ernment proposes various prog rams, some of which are old, some are new, some are Federal, but when is this going to take off ? It's still exp loding; when will it take off ? It looks nice , the prom ises on paper - prom ises -b ut we' ll have to wait and see the imp le. mentation of this progr am. Surely the Minister will pro babl y have alre ady started on some of it. It's a hUige prog ram, but I'm sure that a lot of it will just remain on the white paper.

It is mostly a swnm ary what should have been done , what is done by the Federal governme nt, and what may be' done by the present governme nt, by the provi nce , and the government is cla iming credit in me�st cases where it does not earn the credit. I menUone d taxation and grants. The Dominion Bu reau of Statistics shows that Manitoba spends less per pupil in public school educ ation than the national average ; in fa ct, it is the eighth among the provin ces in provinc ial government spending and public school education.

Of all the prov:lnce s it comes eighth; so the governme nt has not done its duty beca use we, as a progre ssive province in Canada, I think we shouldn't be eighth; we should be first in the expenditure of education and we come eighth. In provincial expenditu re, I mean, in education and we hear complaints about that from diff erent various boards , from the Trustees Associa tion, that the· governm ent is not facing up to its responsibility.

Even at this low leve l of governme nt support in educa tion , a great portion of the Manito ba tax dollar is being spent to underwrite the brain drain, as I said bef ore, not only as far as the exodus of teaLche rs is concerned but also a great proportion of the technical school graduate s leave the' province for better jobs elsewhere, beca use other departments of this governm ent have failed to cre ate a fa vorable alffil.osphere so economically to encourage expa nsion and industry and also jo b op por tunities. Of course, the Minister will say we're doing it now, but that 's anothe r question.

When will it start ? Maybe immediate ly. We might have an elect ion coming. It looks good on pa per, very good, and I think there should be more liaison or teamwork among the various departments of this governm ent. They don 't seem to pull together although they-promised before -- I saw ••.. in the paper that they had a buggy with so many school boys riding in, and they called it, this will be the teamwork . I don't think there is the teamw ork in this governm ent. I do not think that they pull togethe r. It seems to me that teamwork is lacking in here.

If we in Manitoba could attain such teamwork , Manitob a's econ omy would be very buoyant ,

804 March 9, 1966 (MR. TANCHAK, cont'd) ...• gove rnment revenue would rise, and more realistic grants in educati on wo uld be fo rthcoming, would be provided; and I would say that these increased grants an nounced recently will be of little help to the vari ous school districts beca use , as we know, the teache rs are entitled to more wages - they are clam ouring for it - and I'm sure that the bulk of these grants will be absorbed by the teaching prof ession and the districts will be left as before where they were standing .

In fac t, the district in Winnipeg claims that they are gaining very, very little through these gran ts . True , if the grants weren't forthc oming , the tax burden would have been that much higher. Now I would like to mention a wo rd on curriculum, and there is a little complaint here that I will ha ve to maks. We have made numerous complaints to the gove rnment here , not the Depa rtment of Education, Complaints cam e from the Opposition here, from the Manitoba Teachers Society, from the Trustees Association and all educatio nists. They were compla ining about the lag in progre ss in curriculum change s.

The government decided to make the changes in curriculum but they were very slow about it, and society is paying now for the long inaction of the governm ent. The changes are now coming , but how are they comi ng? They are coming with a crash. In some schoo ls, Grade 10 courses have been changed, and the other the cha nges are in lower grade s. And we hear complaints . Not only is it hard on the students but even the teach ers find it very diffi cult to keep up with this rapid change , the crash change .

Instead of preparing the curriculum, having the books and everything ready befor ehand, they are thrown at them in a hurry and some of them have a hard time coping. Some of these cha nges should have been gradually started several years ba ck, and I'll say now that no wonder Mr. Bend, the forme r employee of the present government in education, said that some had reache d the breaking point - and I agree with him - on account of these change s.

This last school year there was a change made in Grade 9 Social Studies, but the text books were not availab le to teache rs until just about September when the school was starting, and I think this is deplorable . Now, introduction of Grad 10 Social Studie s is expected next September -- I think I am right in this. But the teache rs now say that there are no texts yet and they are hoping that the text books will not be dela yed coming in, or whatever it is, before -- they wouldn 't have to wait as long as they waite d last year. They must have time to get acquainte d with this new cou rse.

Now the crash program in the New Mathematics introduc ed last year caused a lot of concern too; a lot of extra work for the teach ers. Most of them accepted it graciously and they are willing, but I am sure that this program, if it was well tended to before , it wouldn't have been nece ssary to resort to a crash progr am. -- (Inte rjection )-- About ten minutes. There were many other things. I would like to come back to this matte r of teache rs leaving our provinc e, and here I would like to say a little bit about the teach ers.

Being a former teache r, I ha ve a fe eling for the teaching prof ession, although I am not presently teaching and pro bably never will be again. But I have a fe eling for the teache rs and I know what conditions they're working on. It seems that the teaching prof ession now, if you look through it, it's the most socialized institution in our land. And why do I say that ? The teachers are in a special position in compa rison to othe r prof essions in the country . They are traine d, they are licensed, they are hired, they are paid, and they are inspected by the state.

The state tells them exactly what to teach, how to teach it, what books they must use , and in many instances even tells them that at a ce rtain time in the year they must reach a certain page in that text book. That's why I say they are highly socialized. And it's unique . No othe r prof ession is in the same position.

Sometime s one wonde rs that now, with better salaries - beca use they are better - and better fa cilities - beca use I'll say that the fac ilities are better, not only in the Province of Manitoba but through out the whole of Canada - that there is still a severe shortage of teache rs in the Province of Mani tob a. And that 's another thing that we were - I could say, promised, that our program will do away with permit teache rs and so on. But we still have the permit teach ers.

Manitob a still, according to the report of the Department of Education, employs 291 permit teachers and they are not decreasing, beca use that's about the figure that it stood at when this governme nt took ov er. And there are 498 Special Authority teache rs. They can't be termed permit teache rs but they are actuall y teaching above their qualificatio ns . So we have too many permit teach ers. Why? Because our teachers are le aving the provin ce . The Premier tried to tell us before it's not serious, about two weeks ago . We still have an insufficient number of qualifie d teach- ers.

And why have they left the provin ce ? Last spring, we were told that it is a serious

March 9, 1966 805 (MR. TANCHAK, cont'd) ••.• brain drain and a serious investment loss to the Province of Manitoba. By the year end of June 1965 - and this comes from a Manitob a Teach ers' Society survey - 336 teache rs went to other provin ces, 336 . I see the Minister shaking his head; maybe I am not right. I took it from the survey taken by the Manito ba Teache rs Association. And the reasons are varied. I can't give all the reasons but just the reasons that in my opinion I think contribute to this serious teache r loss and brain drain.

Number one reason, I would sa y, lack of pla nning and leadership on the part of the Department of Educ ation . Unde r this heading come s the fo llowing: -- the Minister do esn't like that . I Like to see him smiling rather than frowning, but he'll have a chance . And (

a) complete disregard for some of the major recommendations of the Royal Com mission on Education, and I'm not blaming the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-5-34
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 5th hansardpdf 34.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7e5e532a4105631bd96f071c42fe02add9ca00e3

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