Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 18, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 14

March 18, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Tape no. 430 Page 1 - mw It is a pleasure for me to welcome to the galleries today from the Bell Island Vocational School twenty students, with their teachers, Mr. John Pinsent, Mr. Lester Rose and Mrs. Margaret Cheng, and from Harbour Breton, we have Mayor Aiden Mahoney and Deputy Mayor Mervin Chaplin and Councillor Stanley Hynes. On behalf of all the honourab'ie members, I welcome you to the galleries today. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Premier. HON. FRANK D. MOORES (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the House to join me in paying tribute to His Grace, The Most Reverend P.J. Skinner on the Twenty-fifth Anniversary of his Episcopal Ordination. Archbishop Skinner was born in St. John's on March 9, 1904, son of the Thomas B. Skinner, and Julia Lamb. In 1922 he entered Holy Heart Seminary in Halifax, and on Hay 30, 1929 was ordained to the priesthood at Charlesbourg near Quebec ~ity. His Grace had a distinguished career on the teaching staff of Holy Heart Seminary in Halifax from 1929 to 1950, and during that period he entered postgraduate studies at Laval University.

As well as being fluent in French, he is also well-known as a talented musician and organist. On March 17, 1950 His Grace received Episcopal consecration and his election as Archbishop of St. John's was announced on March 31,1951. Archbishop Patrick James Skinner is the leader ~f over 90,000 Catholics a~d the thirty-nine parishes which make up his Archdiocese. I know there are many other members on both sides of this House want to pay tribute to this great Newfoundlander. As Premier of the Province, I offer my congratulations to His Grace on this milestone of service to this beloved province. 1367

March 18. 1975. Tape 431 RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Fogo. CAPTAIN EARL WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House would want to join the honourable Premier in extending congratulations and best wishes to His Grace Archbisho.p Skinner on his celebration. Archbishop Skinner has made a great contibution to society and to the city especially and his talent is very well know, not only by his own denomination but by all class and creed of this Province. Archbishop Skinner is very widely known all over Newfoundland and Labrador and it is noted too, Mr.

Speaker, that he on several occasions made frequent visits to Rome carrying the good wishes of this Provin_ce to His Holiness the Pope. So, Sir, we join in extending special congratulations to Archbishop Skinner on this milestone in his career. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU: I would like to make a statement, Mr. Speaker, ·as acting Minister of Public Works and Services.

Based on a study carried out for government in 1973 by the Bureau of Management Consulting, Departpient of Supply and Services with the Federal Government in Ottawa 1 and subsequent updating by the Department of Public Works and Services it has been determined that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador will require up to 400,000 square feet of additional office accomodation in St. John's by 1980.

This space will be required to alleviate overcrowded con­ ditions in Confederation Building>to replace existing substandard and in poorly located office space in other areas of the city and to provide for projected expansion in growth of government services during the next several years. In view of this requirement public tenders are being invited for rental proposals to provide up to 400,000 square feet of office accomodation in the illlmediate St. John's area, the first 100,000 square feet being required by 1368

Narch 18, 1975. Tape 431 RH - 2 December 31, 1976 and the remainder by 1980. These specifications are attached with the public notice to the statement. The Depart­ ment of Public Works and Services has also been requested to pre­ pare an up to date estimate for the construction of a government owned building to provide similiar accomodation. When tenders are received the comparison will be made to determine which is the most economical procedure to implement. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. HON. W. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, I take pleausre today in presenting a petition to the honourable House on behalf of the residents of Kitchuses in that great historic District of Harbour Main. Kitchuses is a rather small community in that district with a great tradition of independence, one of the few fishing villages left in that area and a community that has been self sufficient for a great many years. The residents of Kitchuses are asking that the ' road to their community be paved. Last year it was upgraded and I think that this is probably the first attention that the road has had in a great many years.

This year they hope that rather than let the good work that was done last year be wasted or perhaps lost by erosion and weather that the Department of Transportation and Communications find their way clear to pave the road to Kitchuses. So, this letter 1which is signed by the Deputy Mayor and most of the councillors of the Town of Conception Harbour of which Kitchuses forms a part, is also signed by the majority of the residents of that community and I ask that it be tabled in this House and sent to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador North. 1369

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 432 NM - 1 MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we o.n this side of the House support the prayer of the petition that was presented by the junior Member for Harbour Main - it is the junior Member for Harbour Main, is it the junior Member for Harbour Main? Seeing that the Minister of Transportation and Co111111unications is in his seat, no doubt he noted the prayer of the petition, we only hope that the minister in his wisdom will find sufficient funds to do the road that the people are requesting. Mlt. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transporation and Communications. HON. J.

ROUSSEAU, Minister of Transporation a.nd CommunicatiotlS: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is not too often you support these petitions but 1of course 1 all the petitions that come to the House for pavement, reconstruction, upgrading of roads, we would, all of us in gover11J11ent1 would like to be able to stand up and support it and say it is going to be done, Buteverything cannot be done in one year.

I know in this particular instance 1 as in many o·ther instances, the minister has brought this to my attention and this request, as with all other requests that may come in the ensuing months while this House may be open,or ensuing years, will certainly be given every sympathetic consideration in the department, So I would personally like to lend my support to this particular petition. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes or no? MR. ROUSSEAU: No, I do not know yet. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of 1,119 residents of the communities of Gambo, Dark Cove and Middle Brook. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that the government allot funds for the construction of a new elementary school. In presenting this petition, Mr. Spea~er, and wholeheartedly supponting it, I would like to present a few of the facts to this Assembly this afternoon. 1370

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 432 NM - 2 We have at the present time, up to grade eight we are housing our something like over 900 pupils in three different buildings. All three buildings are at least twenty-five years old and the conditions within these buildings are not at all what one would expect in this day and age. AN HON . MEMBER: How old? MR. THOMS: Twenty-five years old. Mr. Speaker, the buildings are of the old type. All three of them started with two room classrooms and as new classrooms were needed they were built on. So that the three buildings at the present time just looks like a box added onto a box.

The wiring in these buildings are all exposed. They are not covered up whatsoever. As a matter of fact l in one of the schools I found recently there was bare wiring. This indeed was very dangerous. In one school we have three different furnaces to supply the heat for the one school. These furnaces,of courseiare built in the centre of the building and if ever a fire took place then we would indeed have a tragedy on our hands. We have overcrowded conditions in the schools.

In one of the schools we have to have two rooms, one,we have eighty-three pupils in one room with two teachersJand in another room we have seventy-five pupils in the one room. The different classes are just partitioned off with either a curtain or a portable board on wheels. These conditions, Mr. Speaker, are not at all what one would expect at this time in our age. In one of the schools, Mr. Speaker, I noticed the school 1 tself, because of a very poo·r foundation 1 was down in the centre.

The main door and apparently the foundation had collapsed and water was running in on the floor and the school teacher had to take an axe and to cut a hole in the floor so that the water could run down. The fear of the people in the Gambo area is that some of the teachers which we have at the present time, and we have 1371

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 432 NM - 3 so11Le of the best teachers in the province, tha.t under these conditions the teachers will be encouraged to leave our commun·ity and go elsewhere, We, in these Communities, would indeed like to hold · on'to some of our teachers. I trust, Mr~ Speaker, that; this government; can find fit to allot finances to the board which has its headquarters in Gander so that funds can be lllade available for this school.

It is a s .chool building that is long overdue and our peopie have been very patient. very patient indeed in v.nting for this construction, and I sincerely trost that construction will be forthcpming within the very near future. I would also point out, Mr. Speaker, that our people have be.en willing to wait in the pas't but I mn not so sure that they would be willing to wait four or five or six years as was suggeste4 by the school board. I believe that 1372

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 433 Pagel - mw funds would have to be made available, and this building would have to be built within a reasonable period of time. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to present this petition to the House, place it upon the table of the House, and have it referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. HON. G. OTTENHEil!ER (Minister of Education): Mr.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman and four members of the local school conmittee of the Gambo -Dark Cove area were in my office this morning and presented me with a copy of the petition, and we discussed in general the matters pertaining to schools in the area. As the honourable gentleman knows, of course, that while operating grants go to boards, capital grants in this province go to the denominational authorities apart from where we do deal with boards directly as in Eskimo and Indian schools, and there is a different arrangement there.

As he will recall, and as I now inform honourable members, I did undertake to meet within the next several days with the denominational authorities concerned to see that they had a copy of the petition, which they might have already, I do not know, and certainly to discuss the matters referred to in the petition and in our discussion this morning. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. M.

ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Before we go on on the other petition, may I say a word in support of the petition presented by my friend and colleague, the member for Bonavista North. I think he made a very full and very complete case in presenting the petition. I do not need to add to that. I would like to say that we on this side hope that the process which the Minister of Education described will produce some concrete results.

It is a matter of record and regret that the government have not provided enough money to enable these school boards, the D.E.C.'s to meet the needs for new school construction in this province. 1373

March 14, 1975 Tape no. 433 Page 2 - mw We will have a great deal to say about it at the appropriate ti.Ille, Your Honour, during the debate on the education department estimates. Suffice it to say that the story of the school in the Dark Cove, Middle Brook, Gamba area could be repeated in many communities throughout this province. It is a clear indication of the fact th~t the government of this province must cease to shirk their responsibilit!es, and must accept them. They must provide enough money to enable the D.E.C.'s, the church authorities, to provide our people with the schools they need and they deserve.

NOTICE OF MOTION: HON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The SUl!Dllary Jurisdiction Act." ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order, please! Heading VI - Education, . 601-01. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The Hon. Minister of Education. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Chairman, I am very pleased that this year we have made sure that the Department of Education estilllates will in fact be considered by this committee, because as honourable members may recall, last year they were not considered, and it certainly is illlportant that they be examined and debated by honourable members of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear ! Hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: The government 1374

March 18, 1975 Tape 434 IB-1 have taken absolute assurance to make sure that that in fact does happen this time by calling this item first. What I plan to do in a few brief opening remarks is to outline and comment upon what I consider to be)and what the government considers to be,the most important overall areas, and what we regard as accomplishments in the field of education, and to leave the specific, particular considerations until we get to those areas in the estimates.

In other words speaking of for example, the university in general when we get there, the college of trades when we get there, the school for the deaf, that type of thing, but in the opening remarks to endeavor to give an overview of what we consider to be the most important matters and matters of expenditure and matters of policy. First of all I would like to speak up on the capital expenditure for this year with respect to general school construction. So, I want to speak first of all on the capital expenditure. Now, in the capital expenditure, a total amount of $22,604,500 has been voted.

It is voted under four general headings. One - and I will come back and go through each individually - one, the regular capital expenditure vote. Two, the vote for DREE schools. Three, the equalization ender DREE1 and four, educational services for native people, Eskimo and Indian people. So, we have four votes under which the capital exp~nditure is allocated,because sometimes this is not clear to honourable members. They see one vote and they regard that as the entire capital vote in education for school construction. So, I will repeat it again.

There is $10 million in the vote called building andequipping of schools.Under educational development DRE~ which is also building andequipping of schools, but schools under the DREE agreement, the amount is $8,888,500. The equalization grant with respect to DREE comes to $2. 7 million, and capital construc .tion for schools for Eskimo and Indian boys and girls is $1,016,000. Once again, the total in capital construction under those four headings is $22,604,500. Not infrequently people take one vote only of the capital construction, that $10 million one which is called building 1375

March 18, 1975 Tape 434 I.B-2 and equiping of_ schools 1and forget about the remaining $12.6 million which is also for building and equiping of schools, $2.7 million of it for equalization, $8.8 million for DREE schools and $1,016,000 this year for schools for Indian and Eskimo children. Under the one of building and equjppingschools, this is a vote of $10 million. It will be recalled that last year this government announced a programme that from the period 1974-1975 to 1984-1985, $120 million would be made available to the denominational authorities for distribution to school boards for school construction.

That was done on an escalating plan of $10 million for the first two years, $11 million for the second two, $12 million, $13 million and $14 million. This is how over the ten year period the $120 million was realized. Last year's period obviously is paid and we are now thinking of the period of 1975-1976 to 1984-1985. In other words, for that period commencing this year there is $110 million or there was $110 million guaranteed on this escalating basis for school boards. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: How much? MR. OTTENHEIMER: $110 million up tmtil this budget.

This year 1 however 1 an additional $25 million was added for that period. The first payment of that additional amount will be in 1977-1978. I believe a couple of days ago the honourable member for Hermitage stated that he wished that that amount, that $25 million which is now made available within the next ten year period, was in fact available in this current year. As a matter of fact, I believe he said that.

He pointed to the needs of the school boards and the facts of inflation and stated that he was disappointed that it was not,and believed that it should be available this year, at least as I recall his remarks. The first payments are in 1977-1978, the first payments on that. So, what in fact has been done is that from the period from now until 1985 the total commitment has been raised from $110 million to $135 million, an additional 1376

March 18, 1975 Tape 435 (Afternoon) PK - 1 $25 million in terms of government commitment for expenditure has been made unequivocally for that period. The first payment on it does not come due on that additional amount until 1977-1978 but it is quite and obviously clear that an additional $25 million within the next nine years has been made available under this particular vote for capital construction. And, I think, Mr. Chairman, while honourable gentlemen, one already has stated, and others well may that that $25 million should be available this year, and that would turn our $22 million into $47.6 million then.

We are now spending $22.6 million altogether under this vote and the others. And if were to add that $25 million as has been suggested, and no doubt will be suggested,then obviously that will be a great amount of money.

But certainly the government are very pleased to have been able to make available within the period between now and 19.85, and to have made a commitment to that effect, to the knowledge of the School Boards, and the D.E.C. 'sand the entire general public 1 that an additional $25 million is available under this vote for capital construction during the next ten year period and the beginning of 1977-1978. Now that in general accounts for that one portion of the capital expenditure, the $10 million.

As honourable gentlemen know this goes to the Denominational Educational Committees in terms of their percentage of the population and then is distributed by them to their boards in terms of their own educational needs. And just to repeat what we have done there is that we have added $25 million within the nine or ten year period, but the first payments on that additional amount not beginning until 1977. Now that explains $10 million of the $22.6 million. The next largest amount is, of course, for school construction, exactly the same thing, school construction under DREE.

And these are schools being built under a DREE agreement, and these schools will finalize that particular agreement, and these are schools negotiated by the present administration. There are eight of them. So that amount of $8.8 million for school construction is for the following schools C · "\ -,-, .l .) f I

March 18, 1975 Tape 435 (Afternoon) PK - 2 built under the federal-provincial DREE agreement and in co-operation with the school boards.

They are Mount Pearl,a Junior High School which will serve approximately 500 pupils, and it is due to open next September; Stephenville High School.which will I accoDD11odate approximately 1,000 pupils and is due to open next September as well; the Port Saunders High School 1 which will accommodate approximately 300 pupils and due to open next October; Gander High School)accommodating approximately 500 pupils>is due to open next October; Corner Brook High School, to accommodate approximately 700 pupils 1 due to open next September; Stephenville Crossing Elementary Schoo1 1serving approximately 600 pupils due to open next September; St.

Lawrence High School 1to accommodate about 400, to open next September; and the St. John's West Elementary School due to accommodate 700, and also expected to open in September. So that accounts for the $8.8 million, in the total capital expenditure. The next area we have is the equalization under DREE1 and an amount of $2.7 million has been voted this year. This is a part of a five year equalization progrfmme which will amount to approximately $Hi million. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENREDIER: Sixteen million dollars. AN HON. MEMBER: How much? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Sixteen million.

So we have not only the cotmnitment, the additional cotmnitment, and we are thinking here of the future, for the next ten years, the additional $25 million with $110 million, bringing it up to $135 million, we also have a five year programme under DREE equalization totalling approximately $16 million 1 and $2.7 million of it is in this year's budget. I should say that this result:s - the identification of the amount, the precise amount, the method of arriving at it, and the formula for payment over a five year period - has resulted from negotiations between government and all the denominations concerned 1378

March 18, 1975 Tape 435 (Afternoon) PK - 3 and that we have the concurrance and agreement of all denominations with respect to this equalization. 1379

March 18, 1975. Tape 436 RH - 1 I imagine honourable gentlemen are aware of the general principle of equalization and that is that, let us say, at the end of the DREE agreement the total amount spent in particular boards, for which it would be spent, may not correspond to the percentage in the population of that group because the criteria for DREE schools were not provincial or school board criteria, were not local criteria, so to speak, but were part of the former OREE agreement.

So there was a general agreement of equalization and there have been meetings between government and all of the denominations concerned in which government put forward its position that it was prepared to equalize the total expenditures on DREE schools based on most recent estimates available 1 and they could fluctuate a small amount, obviously, the next few years, that government was prepared to equalize the total expenditure excluding, of course, the portion which had to be repayed by the denominations to the government and that, I think, is twenty per cent in the first agreement, ten per cent on the second agreement.

But there was concurrence by all of the denominations with respect to that programme of equalization in terms of amount, in terms of how it was calculated and in terms of the time period over which it would be done)and that is five years. So that accounts for the capital expenditure for school construction or the equalization of DREE funds of $2.7 million this year 1 which is the first of what will finally be approximately $16 million under that equalization programme.

That is three of the areas of capital construction and the fourth one that I would like to refer to is - in the estimates it is called capital expenditure and I believe it says Eskimo and Indian education or whatever it is called, in short term there. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Innuit. MR. OTTENHEIMER: This year we have $1,016,000 voted in that 1360

March 18, 1975. Tape 436 RH - 2 under that subhead of capital expenditure for schools, for educational services for native people. Last year, and this is a very interesting comparison, last year the amount was $587,600. It is approximately doubled. It is a little bit less. I am not quick at mathematics, but it is about doubled. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Pardon? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HON. T.A. HICKMAN: That was a grant that was available for years and nobody in the previous administration every heard of it, remember that? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: What we are saying here is that we have approximately - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order, please! Order, please! MR. OTTENHEIMER: We have approximately doubled the capital expend- iture for schools, for Eskimo and Indian children and - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, the honourable gentleman says we should triple. I suppose somebody else could say we should quadruple, quintuple, and do all kinds of things.

I think it is very significant that this administration has, I think that is very significant, not that we have not tripled it,or have not quadrupled it or have done various things with it, but I think it is significant that we have, in fact, just about doubled it and certainly it shows this government's awareness, I think, and interest in and dedication to the development of education facilities for people of Labrador and for our native people. I am going to give a rough breakdown of that amount and the figures are rounded out. It could add to a little bit more or a little bit less in that $1,016,000.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I can give you the heading in the book. It is under VI. education, and it is a small heading, right, 616, actually it refers to 616-03-04 and the heading there is called 1381

March 18, 1975 . Tape 436 RH - 3 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . OT.TENHEU!ER: No, my mistake. J5. 616-03-05 and it is called shorthand in the Eskimo and Indian capital, the $1,016,000. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIHER: Right there . Page 37. So I am going to give a breakdown of the expenditures of that $1,016,000.

Construction of a teachers' residence at North West River, $60,000 - As I say these are approximate figures - $60,000; A major extention - I shmuld ·say construction of teachers' residence, North West River, that is for the Roman Catholic Board, that is $60,000 - A major extention to the Labrador East Integrated School at Makkovik and this major extension is a resource centre, craft room and additional classrooms, $200,000; for the school at Nain, also the construction of the resource centre, a craft room and additional classrooms, $200,000; a one room extension to the school at Rigolet, $50,000; for the school at Davis Inlet, three classrooms, a gymnasium and teachers' residence, $360,000; teacher's residence at Black Tickle, $40,000; and two additional classrooms with mobile home at Conne River, of course in Labrador_i but Conne River, the native people there, $106,000.

So that essentially makes up the $1,016,000 llllder that particular vote of the capital construction and that is the fourth one and the only one to which I am referring. I am not talking about any capital construction in other areas, university or that, but for our school system. Right. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENREil!ER: Yes. $106,000, yes, additional classrooms and mobile home at Coone Rive, $106,000. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: $106,000. UR. OTTENIIEillER: $106,000, yes. So, as I say, that is the breakdown of the four votes which give the expenditures for capital construction of schools.

So, I think that that is fairly clear} 1382

... March 18, 1975. Tape 436 at least I trust it is. Now, since I was mentioning some matters of, I am aware, particularly of interest to honourable gentleman from Labrador North and no doubt of other honourable gentlemen from Labrador and from elsewhere 1 I am off capital construction now and in a sense I am on to something different, but since it is related to education of native people, I think it is probably a good context in which to put it in. This is the heading if anybody wishes to look at it.

RH - 4 As I say I am not going through all of the headings now but to pick out what I consider to be most important parts, sure evidence of the thrust of this government, in a sense, priorities and what we consider to be our main areas of development. That is what I am endeavouring to <lo, not to go through each subhead by any means. That would defeat the whole purpose of it. But if somebody does want to watch it in the estimates, this is the heading 616-03-04, I think it is the one just above the one I was speaking about before, an<l this is Indian and Eskimo education, but this is not capital.

This is progrm:une, programme oriented. Now, what I want to point out here, that we have an amount here of $397,200 and I believe the amount last year and the honourable gentleman has the page open, I do not 1 was $197,500. So, there is approximately again, a doubling there. Now, I want to explain what this is for. This is for a programme content, not the total, but this is programme content for education for schools, Indian and Eskimo children.

It is in addition to, naturally, and quite distinct from capital expenditure, but I should point out as well, this is not always understood either, that it is completely separate from and totally in addition to the regular operating grant of so much per student. This is some­ thing quite separate from it. Basically, this is the breakdown 1383

March 18, 1975 . Tape 436 RH-' 5 for the expenditure of that amount.

Operating costs for educational services for the basic is this: The operating costs for educational services or increased amount there for Indian and Eskimo children in Labrador and there is also a certain amount for the Indian I children in Conne River 1 that _is one general category 1and the second one is for new adult education programme in the same areas . ~ow, looking at the first one, the educational services for children, before the adult education one, as honourable members probably are aware, teachers' aides have been used, not teachin~ aids but teachers' aides, peopl e , people who speak both languages Indian and English.

Teachers ' aides have been used at Davis Inlet and at North West River for some time, at least the past year or !:\to and perhaps longer 1 to assist in overcoming the language problem for Indian children and from the advice we have this has been a worthwhile ende·avour and should be continued and indeed should be developed. So 'W'e 1384

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 437 Page 1 - mw are certainly continuing and hoping to develop that programme of teachers' aides for Indian children in Northwest River and Davis Inlet. We are also this year going - this is why this vote has doubled - we are also going to a new programme to employ teaching teachers' aids and people, teachers' aides also in the schools of Nain, Hopedale and Makkovik. MR. MURPHY: Would the honourable minister permit a question? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, in the Indian schools, there are a number of children whose knowledge of English - MR.

WOODWARD: Have no knowledge. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Have no knowledge of English and some with a very slight. These are people who help translate for the English speaking teacher to the Indian speaking children until they get the facility that is necessary. One of the real problems, of course, has been that we have not had come back into the system residents of the area who have gone on, and who then could come back and instruct in English and in Indian concurrently. Naturally, this would be the ideal and hopefully this will develop.

But until that has happened, then certainly using · people as teachers' aides, partially as interpreters and partially heloing people overcome the language barrier, and it has proved very successful in the Indian schools. We are going to start it in the Eskimo schools, where I do not think the problem is as acute, but I think it is still an area where this will be of benefit. So we will be putting that programme for Eskimo children in Nain, Hopedale and M.!,kkovik starting next September. Now also we are planning to develop an arts and crafts programme in those three communities, Nain, Hopedale and Makkovik.

We are also investigating the possibility and the need of teachers' aides at Conne River, We have to make an assessment to see whether that 1385

March 18, 1975 Tape no, 437 Page 2 - mw would, in fact, be beneficial. As I think honourable members know, starting last September, the Department of Education employed for the first time a consultant _in native education. That young lady has been visiting the school boards and meeting with numerous people over the past number of months. I think it will be, really, June, I think a person needs sort of a full year of operation before one can make an assessment and see what developments should come from that programme and etc.

Also under this amount are certain progral!Dne improvements for the schools at Mud Lake and Black Tickle. That is all in the first part,and that is programmes for children. We are also allocating out of this amount $75,000 for an adult education progra11Dne in Labrador with special reference, but not exclusive reference, to the needs of native people, and I say with reference, but not exclusive reference to the native people, and also with planning to develop adult education facilities in the Conne River area.

I have gone into these at some detail now, because obviously we realize what an extremely important area of this one Province Labrador is. Some years ago, a fair number of years ago, I had the pleasure of actually going there fairly frequently in the course of a two year period, and I have not been able to do that recently. AN HON. MEMBER: You had the good fortune, MR. OTTENHEIMER: I had the good fortune, yes indeed, and I said that before, and made many friends there, and a number of them, although I do not see them that often, I still regard them as friends.

It was a very, very exciting and challenging and worthwhile period. So certainly this government recognizes the educational needs of Labrador, and we recognize the tremendous importance of that part of the Province to the future of the entire Province and of all its people, and I think we are committed to doing everything humanly possible to develop facilities and resources there, and to help if one wishes to integrate or bind together the peoples of the two parts of this one Province.

I have gone into it in some detail as well because, as honourable members know, the Royal Commission Report on Labrador, which was an extremely comprehensive document, comprehensive in - 1386

Tape no. 437 Page March 18, 1975 MR. WOODWARD: You should get the Premier instead of building a tunnel out in the Straits to fill the Straits in, 3 - mw MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, I am not sure that that would be totally possible. MR. HICKMAN: Did you ever think of the ecological affect that daming the Straits might have - MR. WOODWARD: MR. HICKMAN: MR. WOODWARD: MR . OTTENHEIMER: No, I did not. - on the Gulf of St. Lawrence1 Joining together, you know - So, Mr.

Chairman, since the year when honourable members had .received the Report of the Royal Commission on Labrador, and since honourable members, no doubt, have not read all of it, at least read those parts of immediate interest and reference to them, I thought that it would be interesting and important to indicate the Department of Education's response, and nobody claims, obviously, that this solves all the problems, etc. Nobody would be so foolish to claim that or indeed to expect it. But certainly I think it is worthwhile and significant developments for educational facilities in the area.

Now I have dealt with the capital expenditures, and then I have since ended ·up on the Labrador portion of capital expenditure. I went into that area of educational programmes in Labrador. Now,what I want to do now is to get back to another very important heading, and that is the operating grants. We have covered the capital grants, and these are the operating grants for school boards. Now this is the money which is sent out to all the school boards of the province and on a per capita basis depending on the number of students they have is what it comes to.

Now here, I perhaps better open this, because here if we are to be fair in what we are speaking about, there is an explanation I will have to make.otherwise we will be talking about apples and oranges, and usually one does not get too far when one does that. Right. I am speaking here aoout the operating grants which are under 605-03-02, which is the heading I am speaking on now, and again not to go heading to 'heading because this is part of the very guts of the financial provisions of the department. As I say 1 this is based upon 138"(

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 437 Page 4 - mw a per student grant. Now starting in April, because we are dealing with fiscal years which take;in part, two academic years, the amount of $17.8 million will be available for operating grants. Now here is where I have to make an explanation so that we know exactly what we are talking about. Some people might say, my, he is optimistic today, but anyway that is what I am going ,to attempt to do so that others will understand what I am talking about. ~ow it is not that difficult, it is just that it has to be made. So this year, $17.8 million under operating grants.

Now that represents a twenty-one, call it twenty, it is easier to work with, twenty to twenty-one, a twenty per cent increase in the per pupil allocation throughout the province, a twenty per cent increase. Now I have to explain that because if you look at the column opposite, which says revised 1974-1975, you will see the amount of $16.7 million, to round it off, and obviously there is not a twenty per cent difference between $16.7 million and $17.8 million. That is why it is necessary to explain it.

That $16,670,000, to be exact, is made up of the following: $14,750,000, which was voted last year for last year's operating costs, which allowed approximately $80.00 per pupil to each of the school boards. Now again 1 that $80.00 that is the basic amount. There are other factors built in which have not changed this year, which I will review later. But I am talking about the basic allocation for operating grants on a per student basis.

Last year, and you do not see it in your estimates, and I will explain why in a minute too, $14,750,000 was voted under operating grants, whatever it is called, and this allowed us to spend $80.00 per student. Now this year we have $17.8 million which allows us to spend $100.001, and that is where we get the twenty per cent. 1388

Marc.h 18, 1975 Tape No. 438 NM - 1 This is why I have to explain, what happened from the $14.7 million , to the $16,670,000 which is in your estimates, this is what I have to explain, This is what it is. It is the payment last summer of $1.6 million which was for a deficit the previous year, 1973-74. It had nothing to do with the per pupil allocation of $80 per pupil last year. It had nothing to do with that. It was to cover up an operating deficit for 1973-74, that is the bulk of the $1.6 million and then there was $320,000 which was the amount for the bonus of $250 to non-professional, janitorial and custodial people. The point I wish to make is that

whereas last year we spent $80 per pupil, the operating grant which is so much per pupil . to each school board was $80 per pupil, this year it is $100 per pupil. So there is a twenty per cent inc.rease in the per pupil allocation under this vote. I think that is clear. I had to explain that other thing, if not there would appear to be a discrepancy between the additional amount going out per pupil, the additional twenty per cent,and the twenty per cent would not jibe with the figure here.

The reason it does,of courselis because of that $1.9 million which went in, which was not related at all to per pupil allocation. I think that is as clear as I can make it anyway. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER : Right. Right. Exactly yes. Ex_actly, and that is where the discrepancy here, not the discrepancy, the reason for this that the figure of this year is not twenty per cent above last year is the $1,920,000, that that is the vote under which it was added in the revised estimates. It had to go somewhere and that is where it went. MR. ROWE: Why was it $1.9 million. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Well $1.6 of it of course, as I said, $1.6 of it was paid for the operating deficit the previous year, 1973-74,and $320,000 of it made up the $250 bonus that certain janitorial and custodial employees of the department got. So the fact of it is that this year the allocation shall be $100 per student; per pupil and 1389

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 438 NM - 2 I should say 1 and I said it before 1that where we were speaking of those special programmes 1 for example 1 Indian and Eskimo, you know) that is an addition to this. This is a province-wide formula and I should have said, just to backtrack a moment, I should have said that the progrannnes for Indian and Eskimo, capital construction operating grants, are of course federal-provincial programmes where there is ninety per cent and sixty - MR. WOODWARD: How much is it now to the different boards? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: I have given it to you by project but I have not added them up for the different boards. I have given it to you per project but I have not added it up. The honourable gentleman is vrobably better at addition than I am. At least he has more to add. MR. DOODY: He is certainly good at multiplication. MR. WOODWARD: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: So we have the $100 per student. Now I should say> so that honourable members will know, that there is another component to that. There is another component to that, just to complete the record, this component is not a factor.

What I wanted to do is to show where we went from $80 per student last year to $100 this year, but there is another component in that allocation and that is $1500 for every specialist teacher and that includes music, physical education, industrial arts, art, home economics. There could be others theseare the ones that come to mind. Then there is an additional $7 per pupil for resource material, essentially library 1but there could be other kinds of resource materials too. So when you are talking about $100 1really it is $107 but that $7 is for resource material.

Then there is $10 per pupil for those pupils who are in special education classes. That is just to round it out so there will not be a hiatus there. Right? Well we have covered capital expenditures and operating expenditures, I would like to say just a few words on the government's policy with respect of free text books, As members of committee are aware, when this administration came into office 1and indeed until last 1390

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 438 NM - 3 year, free text books were provided for pupils in from kindergarten to grade III, both inclusive. Now, last year we expanded the free text book policy to include grades four, five and six and this brought in an additional approximately 44,000 young boys and girls, indeed their families, 44,000 pupils were getting free text books as a result of our programme of free text books last year.

This year we have developed that programme to include grades seven and eight in free text books,and that will include an additional 28,000 pupils, so between last year and this year free text books available to 72,000 kids who did not have them previously. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear: MR. WOODWARD : Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I can get that. I do not have it and it is very difficult to calculate, although it can be done, because the books are frequently used for, say. three years, there might be a deposit on them, they bring them back to the schools, very difficult to calculate. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words as well on the pre-vocational programme which I think is something of real value. MR. HICKMAN: Well that is good . MR. OTTENHEIMER: The honourable Minister of Justice is in favour of that. MR. HICKMAN: That is a monument to your administration of the Department of Education. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you. Thank you. I must say I am blushing. I am blushing. MR. WOODWARD: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Tell us about it. MR.

OTrENHEIMER: There are approximately now 4,000 students engaged in pre-vocational work in twelve centres across the province and, up until 1973> I believe, up until 1973 this pre-vocational programme was offered at one centre only, that in Seal Cove,and there were approximately 400 pupils involved. 1391

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 438 NM - 4 In 1973 we added, September 1973, the school year 1973, we added Bell Island, Placentia, Bonavista, Gander, Springdale and Goose Bay and last September, September 1974, we added Port-aux-Basques, Clarenville, Lewisporte, Baie Verte and St. Anthony. So there are approximately 4,000 young men and women involved in the pre-vocational programme which certainly I think is a very constructive move. MR. HICKMAN: Explain it. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Because as honourable gentlemen know there are a fair number of young boys and girls whose interests are not exclusivelYJ perhaps even primarily, academic, schoolish or bookish in the traditional sense and this is a fact of human nature and it is something that is neutral, it is neither good, bad or indifferent.

Different people have different aptitudes and different interests and different abilities and the old snobbish attitude, absurd and ridiculous attitude, that only those who have what we call some kind of,you know, academic prowess, were those who deserved as much as possible from the - educational system. That naturally is absurd and is untenable in any kind of an enlighted society of any democracy and certainly unacceptable to a vast majority of thinking people.

So through this programme we have endeavoured to involve at least 4,000 young men and women, most of them not really boys and girls, young men and women, in this kind of programme. MR. MURPHY: Does that mean Sir, that a hi~h school student could do grade eleven and also take some time - MR. HICKMAN: That is right. Right.

The way in general it works is that so much time per week, it may depend on the area and the particular programme because they are not necessarily all identical, depending onthe situation, distance, etc., these young men and women will come to a district vocational school and spend so many hours there in some particular course. This has proved to be very worthwhile. Now obviously there is a problem) as in everything there is a problem 1 and that is that in some areas it is impossible to do it 1392

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 438 NM - 5 because the vocational schools are used maximally, they are already in fuli use1and in other areas it has been · :IJnpossible to do it because there is no vocational school nearby or within reasonable distance. Some schools are industrial crafts, home economics, craft training and this can help to fill the gap.

But the fact remains, and we have to be frank about it, we have to recognize it, that in some areas boys and girls cannot participate in this kind of a programme because either vocational schools there are filled, or there are not any vocational schools around to which they can g,o. Now what we are hoping) and this will depend upon the concurrenc .e of t_he federal government and their :OREE prograllDlle, I will make that clear• but the 1393

March 18, 1975 Tape 439 (Afternoon) PK -1 executive secretaries of the Denominational Educational Committees in ) short the D.E.C.'s 1and I have met on a number of occasions to examine and to develop and then eventually, and I am pleased to say 1 we did agree upon a programme that we could put to DREE to ask for their involvement. Because under the general area agreement signed by this administration 1as honourable members know)there was no reference for DREE schools, the regular school construction. But there was reference in the area of human resource development in that context.

So after a few meetings with the D.E.C.'s there was agreement upon a programme which the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs,will be pursuing with the federal government in an effort to get a DREE concurrance. And what it is essentially is this that there would be in certain designated, in certain areas, the addition of pre-vocational wings to existing high schools. These will be planned and built by the government, the Department of Education, in consultation and in close co-operation with the school board authorities.

The facilities will be planned in such a way that there will be no duplication by denominations, and also that these would be accessible to all pupils. In other words, if in a certain community if such a wing were added to one high school) then it would be under the administration of that school board but it would he accessible to students of all school boards. The facilities would be owned and operated by the school board to whose building it would be attached 1 but would be accessible to all students in the area 1 and that the school boards would work out an equitable sharing of onerating costs.

School boards would be required to find ten per cent of the cost of these facilities and the remainder hopefully will be part of a programme, if we get the federal government's concurrance. Now these new facilities would have two basic purposes, While they would add pre-vocational, where they would have the pre­ vocational option and opportunity for day school students 1 they would also be used in the evenings, weekends, and as much as possible as manpower community centres. At present there are upgrading programmes run j ointly by the federal Department of Manpower and the various -1394

March 18, 1975 Tape 439 (Afternoon) vocational schools, College of Fisheries etc. These upgrading programmes, and although they are in a number of areaslthere are a lot of people who have to come to one or two designated areas to PK - 2 do that. Now if we had these additions to existing high schools they would serve obviously the pre-vocational purposes for the students in those high schools but would also serve as manpower centres for upgrading, for various forms of community education, adult education etc.

It also resulted from the discussion held over a period of some time with the D.E.C. 's that the - and this was agreed upon by all - that this principle of equalization would not apply - that as far as possible they would be reasonably apportioned from that point of view - but that the principle of equalization would not apply and that decisions would be made on the basis of, you know, maximum use or efficiency and they would be accessible to all people in the area. Now that would I think - the acceptance and participation of the federal government in this programme - would be a very significant step.

The Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs,! believe, recently discussed this and assured me that he is going to pursue it with his customary vigor and, of course, all we can do really is wait and see what the result will be. Hopefully Ottawa, the federal government) DREE will participate in this because it is a programme certainly designed around hmnan resource development, it is not an exclusivelYi if you wish 1academj,c programme. All I can say is that this government certainly hopes that we will have the concurrance of Ottawa in that programme.

I would like to mention also what I consider to be one of the highlights and the most important developments of the past year, a very recent development but one which with great potential for the future, and that is the entry by Newfoundland, and the signing by Newfoundland of an Inter-provincial Agreement with the other Atlantic Provinces for the education of the handicapped. I was pleased to sign that in late January with the Ministers of Educations of the other Atlantic Provinces during a meeting of the Council of Ministers in Toronto.

And it provides for the government in the development of the Inter-provinli:ial School for the Deaf at Amherst, and the School for the Blind at Halifax. Each 1395

March 18, 1975 Tape 439 (Afternoon) PK - 3 province is entitled to three directors on the board.

And,of course, in certain areas of education for the handicapped it is well nigh impossible for any of the individual provinces to provide all of the services or facilities that are necessary, especially in the area of multi-handicaps in the area of education for the blind, and this is something which the four provinces worked together on for quite some time, and which came to fruition last January, and which I am sure will turn out to be of great value to the young people of this province, and no doubt of the other provinces as well.

As honourable gentlemen are aware last year this administration announced a three year pupil-teacher allocation programme, a three year pupil-tracher allocation prograllll1le, an overall programme which would be phased in in three years. The first phase of it became operative in the academic year just started, last September 1974. Now the second year will start next September, and the final year the September after. But as the budget indicated appropriation has been made for Phase (2) of the teacher allocation programme, and this essentially this year has two components.

Two-thirds of the specialist teachers for special and expanded progrannnes will be added 1 In other words 1 last September one-third, and next September the second third, That will mean approximately 200 additional specialist teachers. And the other compotent is the other part which is operative next September) is the introduction of thirty-five additional supervisory personnel.

So that is Phase (2) of the teacher allocation programme which was explained in detail last year, operative quite soon. and the second part of which becomes With reference to student aid 1 and there is a specific heading on that so I will not go into any great detail~ but as honourable members will orobably recall that the Council of Students Union, the C.S.U. made a brief to the government some time in December. Indeed the honourable Member for St. ~arbe North was there as well when the students had a meeting up thez:e. There were three recommendations in it.

The first one essentially means that there be an upward revision of the total amount of entitlement no matter, you know, how it is made 1396

March 18, 1975 Tape 439 (Afternoon) PK - 4 up1 that with inflation, with cost of transportation, the purchase of books, the purchase of clothing or whatever it IJappens to be, that there be a re-examination of that. This has happened and will happen, and certainly that request has been met - that kind of identification of amounts is done partially by the Canada Student Loan Plan themselves and partially by a committee comprising the provincial government, the university, and the Canad-'! Student Loan Plan people, and that has been done.

The third recollDllendation - the second I suppose is the most imoortant - but the third recommendation requested that the period before repayment of loans, and before the interest would accure , would be extended from six months to twelve months. Now with that , that is totally in the hands of the federal people.

However I did 1 I certainly persona:Lly, and I think the government as well a11:rees with that suggestion, you know, from six months to twelve months - they should have a twelve month period - that does not mean that they could not exercise a six month option or any shorter option if they were successful in getting employment and wanted to start paying back. But that there should be the 1397

March 18, 1975 Tape 440 IB-1 possibility of going to twelve ffionths without having to make payments and without interest accruing. So, I wrote the Chief of Guaranteed Loan Administration, the Department of Finance, Ottawa to that effect, pointed out the request of the students 1 and said that on behalf of the government I was recommending it. He wrote back to the effect that this would be on the agenda of what he calls the next plenary meeting which I think is being held in about .a month~ time. So, we will not know until then.

Of course the main trust of their request was) the simplest way to put it is the application to students of all years of the programme which has been in effect for first year students ·and that ie that no one would be required to borrow more than $450 1 or the people would borrow up to $450 1and then they would get their entitlement to grant.

That is essentially what it is, As honourable gentlemen know it was announced by the Minister of Finance in the budget this request has been implemented and it is now government policy that students in all years will operate under the same programme which was operative last year for first year students. That is that no one will be required to borrow more than $450 per semester for their entitlement to grant. Just a few other matters, Mr. Chairman.

As honourable members know there has been some public discussion, etc. lately with respect to residence facilities for people presently attending the College of Trades and Technology. As honourable members know as well, when the polytech is fully operative, or even phase one is operative, certainly there will be residence facilities there. The point was made by a number of students.

Even when the polytech is fully operative or phase one is operative or all phases are operative, that the place now known as the College of Trades and Technology will obviously continue to have a large number of students, many of them in apprenticeship course·s. Most • .• . • "7 •'"r- of those are six week courses, and 1of course 1 a number in pre-employment courses as well. They recommended and asked us to re-examine the possibility of residences contiguous to that particular building. 1398

March 18, 1975 Tape 440 IB-2 During the past few days we have studied that and reviewed it and indeed we agree that there should be residence facilities contiguous to that area, because even when the polytech is fully operative with its own residences, naturally there will still be students there, some in apprenticeship courses and some in pre-employment courses, and they come from vast areas because in some particular fields that institution is and will continue to be perhaps the only one in the province giving certain apprenticeship courses.

In some other areas - no, there might be two1right, Comer Brook for the West Coast and St. John's for the East Coast. So, there is no doubt that there will be a number of students from various parts of the province continuing to attend in apprenticeship and pre-employment. So, we have agreed that there is a need to it, and we will do everything possible to fulfill that as soon as we can. There are a number of things which have to be done and of which plans have been set in motion.

That is 1 of course 1 the final planning of the facilities, then the financial arrangements, the possibility of doing it through CMHC._-: even late this morning we had a preliminary discussion with CMHC1 ,preliminary in the sense that at this time some years ago there was some discussion with them - the possibility of Cl'ffiC1 if that does not work ou'1 then the other financial possibilities. So, there is a need to finalize the plans, to make the financial arrangements,and ~lso, _ of course 1land acquisition.

Because it would seem the most appropriate place would be on land which is now owned by the College of Trades and Technology but which is not quite large enough. So, there is further land contiguous to that owned by private citizens. So, necessary steps will have to be taken to acquire the land contiguous to what is now owned by the College of Trades and Technology. This we hope and we plan will result in a residence for approximately 250 .

Plans are going ahead, steps have been taken, for the planning, the finalization of the planning of it, for the financing of it and the land acquisition of a certain amount of land anyway. As I say, a certain amount is already available. Just a few words, Mr. Chairman,because under the heading 1399

March 18, 1975 Tape 440 IB-3 university I plan to - obviously that would be the place to discuss the university. I should say for honourable members' benefit that this year I shall be announcing 1 within the budget for the university, the budget for all the various departments of the university.

In other words, under your operating account, $31 million - I believe it is the amount - I shall be giving the budget for each and every department within the university, This is something which to the best of my knowledge has never been done before, and I am very pleased it is being done because I certainly agree that when so much money is involved 1 and it is public money, then certainly this kind of a break down of expenditure is necessary.

I just want to say one word, not in any detail on the university, but just with respect to a matter of some major importance in the development of the educational policy of this government, and that is with respect to the Regional College at Corner Brook. In this past year or two - well, not so much the past year, the past two years more so, has been the subject of some misinformation basically.

Anyway the anticipated enrollment next year, the opening in September, and it is just about completed now or close to completed, the anticipated enrollment next year, say 450 in round figures, this will be made up of first year arts and science students, regular first year students, second year art students, then a hroadly based extension programme.

Now, for certain students taking certificate courses at the College of Trades and Technology or the College of Fisheries, for certain students taking certain certificate courses at either of these two colleges, arrangements are heing made whereby perhaps their first year could he done at the Regional College. There have been discussions and negotiations between the regional college and officials of those two colleges and the Department of Education in that respect.

Also I would like to point out that the Department of Education is planning to inaugurate a course in secretarial science at the district vocational school in Corner Brook. We have a co-operative venture there with the Regional College in that certain courses will 1400

March 18, 1975 Tape 440 IB-4 be given at the _Regional College. So, certainly it is far more than) and far different from 1uniquely or exclusively academic institutions. Apart from the first year arts and science, apart from the second year arts, there will be a broadly based extension adult education programme. There will be co-operative ventures for certificate students from the two colleges, Trades and Technology and the College of Fisheries and also the co-operative venture in terms of the division of the District Vocational School at Corner Brook.

The number of faculty that they plan to have out there next year is between thirty and thirty-five. Mr.Chairman, I would like to just briefly indicate some of the developments in the area of adult education, because I think this is a very important area and one in which gigantic strides have been made. There was some exchange cf question and answer a few days ago with respect to Stephenville. What I want to do is repeat 1 and make totally clear now1what our policy is.

I said then 1 and I say again 1 that within a week or ten days I expect to be in a posltion to announce a director of Community and Adult Education, whatever the specific title is, for that area, We view community colleges, not as new buildings, new campuses, mortar, bricks, concrete, steel 1 we view community colleges as the development and improvement and expansion of already existing educational programmes and of ones to come given by all the many agencies,by the Department of Education, by university extension, by any other agency of government, by private voluntary organizations, etc.

That is what we view as community colleges, the development and improvement of educational and in a certain context social services and not mortar, bricks, etc. 1401

March 18, 1975 Tape 441 IB-1 Now, as honourable gentlemen are perhaps aware as well, recentlYi or several months ago1 Mr. William Shallow was appointed Director of Adult and Continuing Education for the Pi:ovince. He woi:ks under Mr. Pike who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Vocational and Continuing Education. I would like to point out some of the rather quite startling, I believe, figures with respect to adult education enrollment in the province during the past couple of years.

For example, there are adult education courses going on) these are under the Department of Education, in 104 communities of the province. I know honourable gentlemen would not wish me to read them all out, but I have an alphabetical list here and it goes from Allan's Island to Western Bay, a truly remarkable - I will just read through ten or fifteen in the alphabetical order and one will get the sense of its comprehensiveness. I will just read the first ten.

Allan's Island, Badger, Baie Verte, Bay Roberts, Bellburns, Bell Island, Benoit's Cove, Bishop's Falls, Bonavista, Botwood, Brig Bay, Brownsdale, Buchans, Burgeo, Burin, Burnt Islands. I think that is more than ten, but it is the end of the "B's". So, these courses are in 104 communities. Now, academic students total 3,400. Now, there are some in an upgrading and a fairly basic level, of course, some in intermediate and quite a number in high school, a large percentage) a large number would be in high school. So, out of those courses going on in 104 communities, there are 3,400 academic students.

Now of the non-academic students there are 5,300. Just to give some of the ideas of what I mean by non-academic courses - typing, physical education, a programme for blind adults, although that could be called academic, a new math for parents, metric conversion. These are some of the areas of non-academic. So, we have 5,300 people involved in these non-academ:.i.c courses for a total of 8,700. Now, here is a startling thing. Three years ago there were 3,000 people in all these courses combined. Three years ago there were 3,000 people and today 8,700.

So, while the mere additional of numbers is obviously not a significant factor 1402 ., •• ,: , .~. ,·~ .. ~•,·-::.._.·, ·.,. ,·: 11: ,·,.,., -;~ .~' .. ;-,-, •• :.,;.~,::.~;.,; •• •~ • 1 '· llfil.i~w',' ''i'?:'N',.J rf·M

March 18, 1975 Tape 441 IB-2 in itself, it certainly shows that these programmes have been developed. It shows the real need in this area and it shows 1 _indeed) the receptivity and response of people when needs are felt. Quite apart from that, in the craft training area of the department, this would be instructional things, like sewing, weaving, crocheting, etc. There are 131 courses in sixty-five communities with 1,400 students. So, if you add in the craft training, you have a total of 10,100 under various adult education programmes, academic, non-academic and craft training sponsored by the department.

It is in addition 1of course 1 to other areas.

There is just one other area in which I think it important that honourable members know, just to give an overall ·view of the department's work, and that is you may recall that a year ago, January, 1974, the department for the first time got involved in an equivalency testing programme whereby people who for whatever reason had left high school and who had not completed whatever grade they wished, either at any of these night schools where htmdreds are doing it 1or through upgrading or through any other manner, but wished to do it through writing exams for these equivalencies, that was made possible in January, 1974.

So, the first full year of that operation ended last December. It was designed, as I say, to give adults who for one reason or another did not complete high school education and who have not been able or have not wished to do it through night school or upgrading or any other manner, to do so. Now, during that year, ending in December, there were twenty-seven testing sessions in eleven different centers throughout the province. They are quite broadly based, too. The eleven centers are Burin, Churchill Falls, Corner Brook, Gander, Goose Bay, Grand Falls, Harbour Breton, Labrador City, Rushoon, Springdale anc St.

John's. So, in those eleven communities, 650 people wrote the tests and 74.S per cent were awarded Grade XI equivalency diplomas. Some of the others would have been awarded perhaps a Grade X or Grade IX equivalency diploma in some cases, but at least 74.S per cent were awarded the Grade XI 1403

March 18, 1975 Tape 441 IB-3 equivalency diploma, not that a diploma necessarily means that much, but it can in tenns of employment opportunities, in can in terms of a prerequisite for entry into certain courses, it can. 'And some of these prerequisites, like people often say, why do you have these prerequisites for this trade or that trade and in many, many cases we have nothing to do with it, It is the trade or the union or the craft or the association or federal regulation or any number of things which set the requirements. This equivalency diploma is recognized by· all institutions in the province.

The average age - of co~rse, the averages do not mean much - but anyway the average age out of the 650 people writing the test was twenty-nine years old. The oldest person was fifty-six. The age break down is quite interesting. Perhaps I will go through it. There are only 650 and they are broken down here in fairly good categories.

There were ninety people nineteen years old, 210 people between twenty and twenty-four, 146 people between twenty-five and twenty-nine, ninety-three between thirty and thirty-four, forty-seven between thirty-five and thirty-nine, thirty-nine between forty and forty-four, eighteen between forty-five and forty-nine and seven between fifty and fifty-nine. It certainly shows that there is quite a w-ide age spread there. I think it has been a programme which has been of some considerable benefit to a great number of our citizens. Well, Mr.

Chairman,! have endeavored during these few minutes to outline what I consider to be some of the major points of development, both financial and in terms of capital expenditure, in terms of mo~ey, hut also in terms of programmes and educational quality. I look forward to the comments of other honourable gentlemen. I have not spoken about school taxes ~ause - I hRve not spoken about them, but I am certainly willing to 1if necessary. We have he~rd so much about school taxes. I have a sneaking suspicion, ~ very, very sneaking suspicion that the honourable member for St.

Barbe North will perhaps tell us that we should abolish school taxes and have everything paid for out of the public treasury. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is the way it should be done. MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is the way it should be done? The honourable 1404

March 18, 1975 Tape 441 IB-4 member for Labrador North is not in disagreement with his colleague. He says that that is the way it should be done. Quite apart from their various philosophical arguments, the different ways, but that would be an additionai, let us say, $10 million soon, If we were then to put in the $25 million which is available between now and 1985 in to this year 1 that would be $25 million and we would already he up, after not even getting after the minister's salary 1 we would already be up about $35 million. If we had all the millions, sure, it would not be hard to spend them.

I think myself what we have to do is approach these and all matter with a sense of responsibility. If there were an additional $35 million or $55 million or $185 million, I am sure, I know, I could think of a number of ways in which it could be spent. I have no doubt my colleagues could think of them as well.

What I think we have to recognize is 1quite obviously what I think this budget does recognize,and what I think the Department of Education estimates recognize, _thatis the great importance of the development of educational facilities, the great importance of our youth and of our yollllg men and our young women1 and the importance of our vocational and adult programmes, the importance of all of these programmes.

In a year of high inflation, of escalation of costs, with every school board, not only in Newfoundland, every school board in CanadaJ except Alberta 1 _thl!y will be told that school boards are going to have great difficulty l they are in financial straits 1 financial straits on capital. They are in debt. We know they are in debt. They are going to have difficulty with the current acco\lllts.

Every school board in Canada 1to the best of my knowledge,except those in Alberta and some in Ontario, is in-a very difficult financial position 1 every municipality practically in Canada and throughout North America,and indeed every provincial government except Alberta. I think we have, certainly i~ a year of inflation, in a year of escalation of costs, I think in the budget on the whole and in the estimates of expenditure for the Department of Education in particular, have done a realistic and worth-while budgeting which will allow for the continued development of educational facilities in this province, 1405

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 442 Page l - mw On motion · 601-01, carried. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment and make some opening remarks with regard to the education estimates. I can quite honestly say, Mr. Chairman, that I was more than disappointed with the minister's opening remarks, We will get into some detail later when we consider the individual estimates, But, Sir, we were terribly_ disappointed on this side of the House, because the minister simply did not tackle or grapple with the major financial problems facing education in this province today at all levels.

Sir, we were not sitting in this Chamber or in this CODDD.ittee, waiting to hear the minister read off lists of how many people were taking weaving or anything else. We wanted some rationalization for this particular budget in the area of education. Now we wanted the minister to explain and try to articulate how his department and his government are grappling with the problems facing education. Now, Sir, on budget day, much was said about $232 million for education in this province.

The Minister of Finance suggested that this was almost as much as the total budget for the province when he delivered his last budget speech in 1969. Now, Sir, you can use figures anyway you wish, but we can go back, and we can look at the records, Sir, and we can compare the estimates of the Department of Education over a number of years with the records of the estimates of the Department of Education during this Tory or P. C. Administration. Sir, we get a shocking revelation when we compare the rate of increase of expenditure of the previous administration with that of the present one in the field of education.

Sir, if we look at the last term of the last Liberal Administration, from l9C6-1967 to the year 1971-1972, we see in absolute figures smaller numbers voted for educat1uu. But, Sir, it did go from 1966-1967 from $39 million to $68 million in 1967-1968, and then $72.6 million in that next year, and $78,3 million the following year, and $91.7 million the following year, and $115.7 million in the last year of that administration. Sir, that represents a percentage increase 1406

March 18, 1975 Tape no, 442 Page 2 - mw for the Department of Education in that last term of that administration of 192,2 per cent, a percentage increase of 192.2 per cent. Sir, in this term of office, of this present administration, the education budget went from $131 million in one year, 1972-1973, to $149 million, to $182 million, to $215 million, not $232 million as was suggested by the Minister of Finance, and I will give my reasons for that later.

But, Sir, in the current term of this administration, we have seen an increase from their first year in office to this present year, in the fourth year, of only 63.8 per cent - 63.8 per cent increase in the vote in education, the education department, 63 per cent for the P, C, Administration as compared to 192.2 per cent for the Liberal Administration. Now, Sir, some people might say I am using six years and comparing it with four, okay.

Sir, if we look at the first four years or the worst four years - I can make it better by looking at the last four years of the previous administration - but if we look at the first four years of the previous Liberal Administration compared with the first four years of this administration, we will see that the increase, the percentage increase for the Department of Education was 98.2 per cent, 98 per cent, as compared to 63 per cent for this administration.

So, Sir, this administration and the various Ministers of Education and the present Minister of Education have a long ways to go to compare with the records set by the previous administration. Now, Sir, I am making comparisons because this administration so far in this session has spent too much time in making comparisons with the previous administration.

I think it is only right that when we are dealing with estimates that we make real comparisons 1 not a long list of adjectives and adverbs to describe the previous administration but a list of facts: a 192 per cent increase in expenditures in education in the last term of the Liberals, 63 per cent so far for this administration, But if you are comparing the first four years, 98 per cent for the Liberals and 63.8 per cent for the P. C.'s in their first four years.

Sir, this to my mind represents a slowdown or a retrenchment or certainly an austerity to a certain degree, certainly a lowering of priorities, and a lack of 1407

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 442 Page 3 - mw leadership on the part of this government and the Department of Education in the field of education, when we compare the growth rate of expenditures of the two administrations, Sir, this is quite co11111on throughout the province, for people to say that there is a lack of leadership in the field of education with respect to this administration..

I have heard it coming from many, many people and the reason, Sir, is because of the fact that relati _vely speaking, on a percentage basis, this administration is not providing the growth rate in education in dollars that was experienced in the years from 1966 to 1972, during the previous administration. Now, Sir, another thing that I took exception with was the impression that this administration is on its own spending $232 million in the field of education.

The true facts, as reflected if you look at the end of the estimates in education, are that this administration is spending on its own a maximum of $215.1 million as compared to $232 million as the claim. Sir, this represents the _true picture of the provincial expenditure. Now, Sir, I submit that what the Minister of Finance was doing, the Minister of Finance when he referred to the $232 million, was that he was trying to cover up this decrease in the rate of expenditure in the field of education by his own administration, and he was using the figure of $232 million to do that.

Then, of course, he used the catch trick, the catch phrase, of saying that this represented almost the entire budget of 1969-1970. Sir, we will not be fooled by this playing with figures,and neither will the people of Newfoundland,and neither will the school boards,and the university,and the vocational schools, and the College of Trades and Technology, and all the people who are looking towards t_he government for leadership in this field and assistance. 1408

March 18, 1975. Tape 443 RH - 1 Sir, this is why we take some exception to such praises of these expenditures. Now, Sir, this is $232 million which is not realistic. It is not the true picture. These expenditures are especially vital to the future of this Province and demonstrates this administration's dedication to the provision of equal educational opportunities for all Newfoundlanders. The expenditures reflect a multitude of recently improved programnes.

Sir, that is playing loos _e with the truth to say the least, Sir, when they were using the figure $232 million when it should have realistically been $215 million. Now, let us look at, Sir, this so-called $232 million spe~t in the field of education. Sir, if you look at it very carefully,and since the minister took pains to read out this to this committee, Sir, I will take some pain to point out to the co1111r,ittee where the money is coming from.

Sir, if you look carefully we see that $187 million comes from the Federal Government for student aid 1 $500,000 comes from the Canada Pension Plan, $8,880,000 comes from DREE for educational development 1 $3,016,000- I am rounding off some of these figures - comes from DREE for capital expenditure) $190,000 is the federal contribution for bilingual education} $840,000 comes through manpower training for the College of Trades and Technology) $7,750,000 comes from the Federal Government through manpower training for the vocational schools) $2 million for manpower training for the Fisheries College) $262,000 from the Federal Government for Indian-Eskimo education)and $674,000 from the Federal Government for Indian and Eskimo capital expenditures in education.

Sir, that totals $24,307,000 coming directly from the Federal Government to this Province for expenditure in education and stated right here in the Budget Speech we have the fact that these expenditures demonstrate this administration's dedication to the provision of equal educational opportunities for all 1409

March 18, 1975. · Tape 443 RH - 2 Newfoundlanders. Sir, an?ther approximately $2 million comes from related revenue, such as recovery of loans and fees and this sort of a thing. That is another $2 million that is not coming directly from the Provinc_ial Government and, Sir, we had $11. 7 million coming from expenses voted in other departments. I grant you that that is spent in the field of education and is coming from the Provincial Government in some cases and in some cases from the Federal Government.

But, Sir, if you total the total Federal Government involvement of $24.3 million and related revenue $2 million and expenses voted in other department $11.7 million or $11.8 mil_lion, you get about $38 million. So, if you want to play with figures, Sir, you could say we have an educational budget, an educational budget from this Provincial Government of $194 million, not $232 million. So, Sir, we do not want to hear the kinds of quotes that I just ment-ioned that was read in the Budget Speech. Now, Sir, the Minister of Ed~cation, Mr.

Chairman, is quite able and ready, I assume 1 to defend himself, defend anything that I have to say, He does not require any assistance from the Minister of Transportation and Communications who would be better occupied up on the Northern Peninsula seeing if he can straighten up some of the roads there, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, ROWE: Now, Sir, I remained silent, Mr. Chairman, and my colleagues during the Minister of Education's comments and I would expect the same thing 'from honourable members on the other side of the House. Now, Mr. Chairman, le~ us look at teachers' salaries.

I have picked out, Mr. Chairman, approximately seven or eight areas that I intend to concentrate on during my preliminary remarks here and then we can deal with the details when we come to them in the individual votes or estimates for the department, but I 1410

March 18, 1975. Tape 443 RH - 3 have picked out seven or eight major areas, coincidentally enough, not mentioned 1in most cases 1by the honourable Minister of Education. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, and the first one was a comparison of the rate of increase of the education budget during the good, old Liberal years, Sir, and during the present P.C. years on a percentage basis, a relative basis, not in absolute figures. Now, Sir, the other point that I want to make is these matters relating to teachers' salaries.

Sir, in 1974-75 the vote for teachers' salaries was $77 million and this year the vote was $97 million, therefore, an increase of $20 million for education. Now, Sir, there are a couple of things that puzzle me here. One is that the Minister, not of Education, but of Finance, in his Budget Speech,and I would wish the Minister of Education to try to explain it to this c011Dnittee, Sir, explain that some of this money would go towards the implementation of the new programme for the pupil-teacher allocation.

That is twenty-five students to every teacher and he suggests 1 the Minister of Finance, that there would be an additional 200 teachers this year with a total of 864 teachers by 1978 at a cost of $20 million. Now, Sir, I cannot quite understand that. Now, I know there are other related programmes but if you work that out, which I did, this comes out to something like an average of $23,000 per teacher. I mean, how does this work?

Does the Minister of Finance say that 200 new teachers this year for a total of 864 teachers by 1978 - now, does he mean a total accumulated 864 teachers or are we to have 864 new teachers in 1978 and say _600 in 1977 and 400 in 1976 and 200 in 1975 1 this year? · MR. CROSBIE: (First

part inaudible) Since we are just starting the estimates, Mr. Chairman, just seeing how we can best-manage it. Now, Beauchesne at page 201,

section 239 says, ''The whole management of a department may be discussed in a general way when the Colllllittee 1411

Marc h 18, 19 75. Tape 443 RB - 4 of Supply is consider:liig the first resolution of the estimates of that department, which reads as follows: 'General Adl!linis •tration' but the discussion must not b~ ~tended to any particular item ~ mentioned in the estimates of that department. In other wor.ds, as long as there is a breakdown after the general heading, you can have a gene"tal ,discussion of the department but where there is part .icular sp_eci_fic iteins 1n _the estimates, and there is one for teachers' salar.ies, that the detailed discussion of that should wait ~til .that .item comes up.

Otherwise, it is pretty unmanageable to conduct the discussion on it, So, I would · suggest, Mr, Chairm&1, that on the fir .st item you discuss the whole management of the department in a general way but when there are particular specific ~iD.gs that are being questioned and there is an item 1n th!! estimates where you can do that, that the honourable gentleman should wa~t until that item comes up because ther1:1 is a specific item, teachers' salaries ,and then it is easier. We all know what is being discussed. I would suggest that was the best procedure. MR. ROWE: Will, Mr. Chairman, to that point of order.

MR. }WRPHY: Inaudible. 1412 . '

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 444 NM - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Minister of Social Services. MR. MURPHY: I just want to say, Sir, that I have been in the House for a great many years and we decided that was the better way to do it. Otherwise everybody would go over and over and over the same item and item and that was always agreed at the time of committee that a f- words would be said on the administration of a department. Then anything that is covered by an item, we would wait until that item was called and then we would go into that.

I think, Sir, if we are going to get any sense out of the thing, I think it is the only practical way to do it. MR. ROWE: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman,__!'1~1_1 you know Beauchesne is Beauchesne 1but we have been quite flexible with this particular rule over the years that I had the honour of serving in this particular House and - MR. MURPHY: Quite a flexible rule. MR. ROWE: And, Mr. Chairman, if my memory serves me correctly, we did have rather lengthy discussions and even get into some detail during the considerations by mutual agreement.

The minister would get up and make his statement and the spokesman for education, ar whatever department was under consideration, would get up on the Opposition side and make his statements however long, And I would submit, Mr. Chairman, by dealing with these particular broad headings, although I have to use specific examples to make my point, that it will shorten up the consideration of the estimates when we go through them.

Because having made my point here, my broad point using specific examples, I certainly do not intend to get up and repeat myself on that same point later on in the consideration of this particular estimate. So I submit, Sir, if I cannot use examples, specific examples, to prove a broad point, there is nothing to talk about. MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not sure the honourable member is completely correct there. It is true that the House can consent to do practically anything. If honourable members agree to discuss 1413

March 18, 1975 I Ta,pe No. 444 NM - 2 specifics when he should be disc,uss ing generalities then the Chair has no objection to it although the Chair, if necessary, will call his attention and wil1rule upon it. Now the honourable e Minister of Fisheries has risen on a point of order that is quit ~ valid. The Member for St. Barbe North was speaking on a specific ! item and there was an objection made, So the Chair has no alterhative but to agree with the Minister of Fisheries that his point is correct.

However, I must also point out that the Minister of Education when making his presentation did refer to a number of specifics as well. So if objections are going to be made by any members of the House, they should be made no matter who is speaking. So I must agree with the Minister of Fisheries and if necessary will continue to agree with anyone who brings up the point and probably will enforce it fairly rigidly myself. MR. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was operating under the understanding chat - I was not sleepin g on my rights in this res pect - I was j ust operating under the assumption that we were going to do the same thing on both sides of the House, I MR.

CHAIRMAN: I would like to make one further point here I that since the consideration of the estimates is not as it previously was, in previous years,if honourable members recall there was no time limit but vhere there is a time limit I think it is necessary that the rule of relevancy would have to be more strictly enforced than previously because otherwise honourable members would be given the opportunity to discuss things twice and quite probably might run out of time 1as it. has been known t.o happen, MR. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairuub.

Now I leave it to the Chair to bring me to order if I get too specific in making my broad points, Mr; Chairman. Now where was I? Teachers' salaries. The point that I was trying to make, Mr. Speaker, was this, although we have a $20 million increase, we cannot understand why the new teacher-pupil ratio : allocation 1 4 •1 A ~ .L"t

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 444 NM - 3 is going to cost $20 million by 1978. In fact,that is not an item in the Budget 1 come to think of it• It was mentioned in the Budget Speech, Mr. __ Chairman. So when the minister replie!I I would appreciate some clarification on that point.

But the other thing, Sir, that we find a little bit disturbing is that once you take the yearly increments of the teachers into consideration 1 and you take the increased qualifications of the teachers into considerationland you take the increased number of teachers going into the teaching field into consideration, Sir, one wonders what is going to be left over for any increased wage requests by the teachers. Now, Sir, I do not want to anticipate any negotiations that are going on with respect, you know1between the government and the teachers, but we do have collective bargaining.

Even if this $20 million was all allocated for an increase in teachers' salaries, what the government is telling the teachers is that the maximum increase they can get is two-point-six percentage increase.

You take the $20 million and you compare ~t with the total allotment and the increase over last year, and we see that the maximum increase the teachers' salaries can get is two-point-six percentage •• It has got to be something less than that, Sir, because we have to take the increased qualifications of the teachers into consideration, the yearly increments and the increased number of teachers going into the teaching field.

So, Sir, it is obvious that the vote for the teachers' salaries will not meet the request for increase in salaries in order that the teaches may meet the high cost of living and get a fair return for the cost of their own education and for the high responsibility that their jobs entail. So, Sir, one asks really whether or not there is a need for collective bargaining under the circumstances, when the Budget practically 1415

March 18, 1975 Tape No. 444 NM - 4 tells you the maxilnum amount that can be made available for the teachers in the way of wage increases. Sir, it is one of two things; either the amount has to be contained in the $20 million thereby telling the teachers approximately what increase they can expect which has to be something less than twenty per cent,or money has to be found somewhere else. So the only other place you could find it, Sir, is by bringing in a mini budget, probably after the election. if 1of course - MR. DOODY: Do you know something that we do not know. MR. ROWE: Oh yes, Sir, yes, Mr. Chairman.

I have heard all about the polling captains getting their guns ready by the deadline which was March 15, all the polling capl!ains . AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: I realize that is quite irrelevant, Mr. Chairman, but I am being provoked and drawn off course, MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Now, Sir, if we want to make a comparison again of what this administration has done for the teachers as compared to the previous administration, we can see it very clearly. During the last administration the salary votes for teachers went from $19.7 million in 1966-67 to $46.4 million in 1971-72.

Sir, this represents a percentage increase from the first to the last year of that administration of 135 per cent. MR, MURPHY: You do not talk percentages in salaries. MR. ROWE: Sir; the Mini~ter of Social Services knows very well that the dollar bill ·at that stage represented a differe~t thing that the dollar bill today. Sir, during this administration we have seen an increase in the vote from $55.7 million to a total of $97 million, $55.7 million to $97 million which represents an increase of seventy-four per cent, a 1416

March 18, 1975 Tape 445 (Afternoon) PK - 1 135 per cent increase compared to seventy-four per cent for this administration, Sir. Sir, I mentioned this because it was this administration who cultivated the teachers, or which cultivated the teachers, Mr. Chairman, to the extent that they believed - cultivated to the extent that they believed that they would be expecting great things from this administration in way of salaries. And facts speak for themselves when we make comparisons of the:(Ercentage of increases in teachers'salaries.

Now, Sir, with regards to school construction 1which the Minister of Education referred to 1 I have a figure here of $21.6 million for capital grants. And as the minister indicated this is broken down to $8.8 million for the completion of schools through DREE, and $2.7 million to the denomjnations as part of a $16 million five year progra111111e to equalize the DREE grants during the period of 1970 to 1975.

Now, Sir, there are a couple of thtngs that I might ask the minister in this regard, and that is, when the minister refers to the three denominations is he now including the Pentecostal Assemblies with respect to this $2.7 million of an equalization grant because of OREE expenditures in the past? Are the Pentecostal Assemblies included in this particular thing now? And if so, Sir, you know, how much ·is their allotment as compared with the Integrated and the Roman Catholic?

And further, Sir, I might ask the minister of he can indicate to the honourable House what happened to the amendment with respect to, I think, Term 17 of Terms of Confederation in terms of having the Pentecostal Assemblies accept this, acknowledged as a denomination in this province for purposes of education? Now, Sir, on page 14 of the Budget Speech we see this new commitment by the P.C.

Government, and I would say that the Minister of Education was playing rather loosely with that $20 million 1 because, Sir, the impression I would submit that the minister was leaving, whether willingly or not, but the impression that he was leaving that this 1417

Mareh 18, 1975 Tape 445 (Afternoon) $25 million was a great ?ew grant - of $25 million being made available this year. People could misinterpret ft that way.

Whereas, Sir, the fact of the matter is as we see when you look at this new commitment scale that it is over the years from 1975 PK- 2 up to 1985, a ten year period. And the first year that this comes into effect realiy is in 1977-1978 when $1 million was made available, then 1978-1979 another $1 million is made available, in 1979-1980 then $2 million is mad.e ava;\.lable. So the maximum amount of this $25 million is being made available in the extended long period.

So, Sir, it is not helping the Denominational Educational Connnittees, it is not helping the school boards in this province to cope with the problems that they are faced with today. Now, Sir, the fact of the matter is-that the s'i:hool boards and our educational system face complete and utter bankruptcy. This is a fact that we have to accept. This is certainly so, S1r, on the capital side.

The school boards of this province face almost complete and utter bankruptcy. _Sir, unless the government provides a substantial infusion of money on the capital account, Sir, there cannot be any significant new school construction in Newfoundland during this year, or during the next three or four years. Sir, the fact of the matter is that all of the school boards of Newfoundland have already spent for facilities presently in use all the money which they expect to . receive on capital account in the next two or three years.

Now, Sir, the government since 19~l~that was the last year that the Liueral's prepared a budget)had been providing $8 million per year I that is until 1974-1975, where it was increased to $10 million per year. Sir, the amount voted for the construction of new schools was $4 million, a sum to which it had been raised frolll $2 million in the mid 1960's. And this, of course, Sir, was raised from $1 million in the mid 1950 1 s. Now, Sir, this is a fair amount of money that is being spent in the field of education. The rate of increase has been extremely rapid. 1418

March 18, 1975 Tape 445 (Afternoon) PK - 3 But, Sir, the simple fact of the matter is that it is not enough money. Now the honourable minister may say, well that is our problem 1we cannot get enough money. But we will have a positive proposal for the honourable minister once we set out the problems that exist. Sir, we simply do not have enough money and the shcool boards are on the verge of bankruptcy. And obviously this is because of no increas~d costs of construction and materials and this kind of thing.

And the seemingly large amounts of money that we are getting from government at the present time simply will not build the buildings that we need in this province 1 or anything like the buildings that we desire. Sir, the Minister of Education has been around this province as I have been, and as .have other members, and there are schools that are not fit to put animals in let alone students still existing in our province. We can blame it on any government we want to, the previous administration or this administration, but in spite of the huge amount of money being spent in the field of education it is not enough.

The school boards did not have enough, Sir, so what did they do? They did exactly the same thing, Sir, as many people do in their private lives, Sir, they borrowed against future income 1 the school boards of this province. And using the money thus acquired they built the schools which we see around us in every part of the province today. Sir, we could not have seen these schools that we see today if the school boards did not go into debt. It has been a very, very costly exercise. In fact, Sir, the school boards have a debt, I understand, at the present time amounting to $46 million - $46 million.

Sir, -this debt alone is close to the next four or five years of income under the new formula or the new commitment presented by the government. Now, Sir, and to that we have to add the debt charges - and that will add up to approximately $70 million - $70 million. Sir, that is the amount of money,$70 million 1that will be needed to pay off the debts of the school bo·ards in the next few years. 1419

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 446 Page 1 - mw Now, Sir, I think under these circumstances, Mr. Chairman, you can understand why the school boards say that unless the annual allotments, as laid out in the budget speech, unless they a~e increased substantially, they will not be in a pos•ition to build new schools, any significant new schools, or any significant nW11bers of new schools for the next few years. So the banks are simply not going to give them any more credit. I have mentioned the extent of the debt charges already.

Sir, the fact of the matter is that the principal and the interest on the debt of the school boards can hardly be serviced by the annual allotments that are being made to the school boards. Now, Sir, a few years ago, a couple of years ago, the school boards of this province estimated that they would require - this is very important, Mr. Chairman - they estimated a couple of years ·ago, in 1973, that they would require $132 million from 1973 to 1980. That is for the next eight years. That was said two years ago, Sir. In other words, they needed an average of $16.5 million per year for e•ight years.

This is the request, Sir, that was made to government two years ago. And, Sir, do not forget that this is in addition to the $46 million debt or the $70 million debt, plus interest. This is in addition. Sir, ·what we have here is the government's commitment. The government's commitment is $135 million over the next ten years, taking us up to 1980, when the school boards asked for $132 million to take them up to 19 - I am sorry - the new commitment is $135 million to take them up to 1985, the school boards requested $132 million to take them up to 1980. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. F.

ROWE: Now, Sir, the Minister of Industrial Development can shake his head all he wants to. MR. DOOD'.'.: It is not 1ust me. MR. F. ROWE: This is a desperate situation, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 1420

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 446 Page 2 - mw lfR. F. ROWE: The verge of bankruptcy. It is a very serious situation, Mr. Chairman, Sir, in other words the authorities, if we take the debt figures into consideration, are r.eally asking for about $200 million. I do not know if they would ask for it, but this is the requirement to get them out of the mess they are in at the present time, Sir, as I mentioned before, this is a long ways away from what the government has collllllitted. Sir, we are facing an extreme crisis in terms of financing primary, elementary and secondary education in this province.

And this gove:rnment, Sir, has been like a depleted resource when it comes to leadership in dealing and grappling with this financial problem in the secondary and elementary schools of our province. It is a cri.sis, Sir, which the school boards face and, Sir, there is a solution to it. There is a very simple soluti<>n to it, and it will be a fairly costly one, and obviously is to make more money available. But the question is, Mr. Chairman, how do we make more money available? Because the Minister of Education is saying we cannot make more money available.

Well, Sir , we have a sugges tio.n whereby the government can make the required money available to the school boa'?'ds so they do not have to live with this day to day .c:Iread of going up the spout) 1421

March 18, 197.5 Tape 447 (Afternoon) just barely being able to service their debt, not being able to build any significant numbers of new schools. I am still have kids up in my district in a school, Sir, with four rooms, with a miserable old space heater in it. AN HON. MEMBER: After twenty-five years. PK - 1 MR. F. R(WE: Af_ter twenty-five years, that is correct, Mr. Chairman 1 after twenty-five years and this government if he wants to get into that kind of foolishness, Mr. Chairman, this was the government that was going to solve all the problems in ·its first Throne Speech. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F.

ROWE: So do not give me that marlarky. This was the government that were going to re~nstate the student aid programme, th_ey were going to increase teachers salaries, they were going to solve all the problems in edu~ation. If you would listen to that first Throne Speech, Mr. Chairman, A.'< HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: So I do not mind the minister referring to the last twenty-five years or however many years - twenty-three years - there were significant improvements over these twenty-three years, J1r. Chairman.

And I defy this administration to compare the progress made in this province relative to the progress made in any similar period of ·the previous administration. And I have given the Committee, Sir , figures in this honourable House earlier today to show that this _Department of Education, of this administration, does not compare at all when you make comparisons on a relative basis with respect to expenditures in education. -B~t, Sir, there is a solution to gettin g this $16.5 million per year 1 it is probabl y a little bit more at this present time but these are the latest figures I had to go on.

It may be $17 million or $18 milli ; n they need now to take care of the needed expenditures, to build new schools, to service a debt and to pay it off or liquidate it. Sir, - the answer is simply long term financing which I understand the school boards have been asking for for years. Sir, they, the 1.A7? -.:..-ra.. ...

March 18, 1975 Tape 447 (Afternoon) PK - 2 school boards have asked for the money to be made available over twenty years - and this would come t°J saylapproximately $328 million­ $68 million is that what they used to repay the presently existing loan comm1.tments1 and leave $260 million or so available for current school construction needs of the province. Sir, the expectation was a couple of years ago that the $260 million payable over a twenty year period, all of it being applied to new construction, would meet the needs of the school boards. That is a lot of money, Sir.

And we are not asking the government to flick out $25 million this year. But, Sir, the alternative to not finding that $260 or so million over the next twenty years is absolutely unthinkable in terms of the standards, the physical standards only that our students will have to face in the schools ove·r tre next few years. Does anybody here, Sir, want to see Newfoundland without any new schools being built next year or the year after, or the year after when these capital grants, except for the DREE grants 1could just barely go towards servicing the debt? I am sure, Mr.

Chairman, there are schools in your district that are an insult to the province after twenty-five years, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOODY: A lot of progress in the last two years. MR. F. ROWE: There you go, the Minister of Industrial Development - I a lot of progress in the last two years 1no doubt. Sir, there is no doubt about the fact that the amount of money required is beyond the level of the school boards financial or fiscal capacity but, Sir, it is not beyond the level~ it is not beyond the level, Sir, of our provincial's fiscal capacity to borrow. 1423

March 18, 1975. Tape 448 RH - 1 Sir, this Province spent $160 million to buy back our resources as far as BRINCO was concerned up there 1and it is going to have to get $1.6 billion one way or the other for the development of the Lower Churchill - not arguing against that at all, Sir. But it· demonstrates the ability of the Government of this Province to borrow money if it places a priority in any particular direction.

Sir, we are suggesting 1and it is not my suggestion, Sir, it is not the suggestion ?f any single member on this side of the committee - we are suggesting, Sir, that the government - and I would like for the Minister of Education to take note of this 1 he might have articulated it once or twice before - Sir, we are getting kind'of sick of being accused of being negatively . critical but we do have a very positive suggestion on how to solve this problem and, Sir, the suggestion is this, is that that government should set up a crown corporation, a crown corporation - · AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Not another one. MR.

ROWE: Yes, another one. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Another one. MR. ROWE: Another one, not with all the fanfare of the Hydro Corporation, but set up a crown corporation, Sir. You can call it the Newfoundland Educational Finance Corporation. AN HONOURABLE }!EMBER: . Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. ROWE: And, Sir, this corporation with the government's guarantee, of course, could go to work and borrow the money from the financial market. Sir, this corporation would then use this money to build schools.

The corporation could build the schools itself and then turn them over to the denominational educational authorities or could give the money to the denominational educational authorities or the school boards who in turn would build the schools just as they do now. The details of it can be worked out. 1424

March 18, 1975, Tape 448 RH - 2 Sir, the Educational Finance Corporation could lay out a ten to twenty year construction programme if they worked on a twenty year financial basis. And Sir, this construction programme could be worked out with the authorities and subject to all the checks and balances which must be built into such an undertaking. Sir, once this programme was worked out, then it could be carried into action. The corporation would be the purpose of the cor-. J poration would be,to finance the borrowings. And, Sir, how could these borrowings be repaid?

Simply by annual allotments by the Government of the Province, the same way they do it for any other services in the Province. Sir, this government and other provinces of Canada have financed such systems as water and sewer systems and other municipal services over the last twenty-five or thirty years and it makes perfect sense. Sir, the beauty of this is that it would give us the schools we need at the least possible cost 1 and even more importantly, it would enable the school authorities to plan on a forward and reasonably long term basis.

Now, on the contrary, they have to plan on a short term basis, all the school boards of this Province. And, Sir, I think it makes e~tremely good sense to put school financing on a twenty year basis. Sir, we do the same thing privately now. Each individual in this honourable House who has a mortgage on a home is financing his own home over. a twenty, twenty-five, thirty year basis. Why should not schools in this Province be built on the same long term financing progr8lllllle? 1425

March 18, 1975 Tape no. 449 Page 1 - mw So there it is, Sir. Do not ever let honourable members opposite get up and say that we simply get up and ask for more money for this - why do you not do this, what about more money for that road, this water service system, that school? Sir, we have stated that the school boards of this province are on the verge of bankruptcy, and . that there will be no significant numbers of new schools built this year,or next year,or next year. The school boards can just bearly service their debts.

They are getting $135 million up to 1985, when the school boards ask for $132 million up to 1980. And they say, I suppos·e, the Minister of )!:ducation says, I suppose, the Hon. Member for St. Barbe North will get up and say, why not flick in that $25 million this year?

It is very easy to say, Sir, but we cannot afford the luxury of irresponsibility being this close to an election. ·Sir, our suggestion is a Crown Corporation, the Newfoundland Educational Finance Corporation, to borrow money over a twenty year ' period and allows school boards to plan on a construction programme for a ten or twenty year period instead of, Sir, having to read a headline like this, year after year, and I would not doubt the same headline, Sir, was printed during the Liberal years AN HON. MEMBER: And the year after, and the year after. MR. F.

ROWE: - and the year after and probably the year - if this administration contin _ues to go on the way that it is going on, Sir, Province's School Boards Forced To Slash Programmes. Sir, I submit that if we set up this Crown Corporation 1that we could have sensible, long-range construction programmes, sensible, long-range financing, long-term financing, and I would submit, Sir, a solution to many of the problems facing education in our province today as far as capital construction is concerned.

Sir, we will not hav~ the Executive Secretarv nf the Newfoundland Federation of School Boards, who warned members of his organization that they would be forced to slash programmes because not enough monies were allocated for the school boards. It is going to be a very tight year for many school boards, the Executive Secretary said, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 1426

March 18, 1975 Tape no, 449 Page 2 - mw MR, F. ROWE: Sir, I agree with honourable 111embers opposite. It is a tight year, a tight year, and partly because of the lack of leadership of this adlllinistration, and partly because, Sir, they have not grappled with the p-roblem. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. 'F . ROWE: Obviously, the honourable 111em.ber was not listening to the positive suggestion that was 111ade by this bunch over here, Sir. We have reconmended - AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. F.

ROWE: - honourable members, we have recolQDlended that a Crown Corporation be set up, and I have explained why I thought that would be a reasonable thing to do and would help alleviate s0111e of the problems. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. F. ROWE: Never, never, Sir, will we meet the needs of education, highways, 111unicipal services, never, never, in this province. You pave the streets, people want sidewalks. Put in sidewalks, you want lights. Put in that, you want street cleaners. Put in that, well it just goes on. But this is not sensible what we got here now, Sir.

The school boards of this province are facing utter and complete bankruptcy, and we have made our suggestion as to how that should be taken care of. 1427

March 18, 1975 Tape 450 Sir, ·the government has been sadly disappointing in not grappling with that particular problem. Now, Sir, operating grants to the school boards - I IB-1 am glad the honourable minister explained something in the operating grants there because, Sir, here is the way I had read it. I am not quite sure if I have changed my mind quite. I am not quite sure if the minister has convinced me.

Sir, the way I read it is that in 1973-1974 the estimate was $11.7 million - that is the revised estimates now - and the estimates for 1974-1975 were $14 million,which represented a twenty-five per cent increase estimate over last year. · Sir, the revised estimates for 1974-1975 were $16.7 million

whereas the actual increase was forty-two per cent over the year before rather than twenty-six per cent. I have a little calculator if the minister would like to use it. I attri _buted that, Sir, to inflation. But the minister has since said that there is a $1.9 million deficit remaining from the year befor 7 or somethinglthat had to be wiped out. This is the reason for the revised upward estimate up to $16.7 million. Sir, I cannot understand where that $1.9 million deficit came from, how it originat;ed, why there. There must have been a reason for it. AN HONOURARLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWF.: Yes.

There was $232,000 or something went for that bonus that was g:lven out, but then the remainder was just a plain deficit which was attributed to what? MR. OUEl'.'l!EI 'ER: $1.6 million was made available sometime last summer to cover the deficit of the previous year, 1973-1974. Each board submitted that that was the first year - (remainder inaudible.) MR. F. ROWE: Right. I get the point. Okay. So, you cannot attribute that upward adjustment wholly and solely at all. ourelv on the basis of inflation.

Therefore, I conclude that the -amount of increase this ye:i-r, which I estimated to be six-point-eight per cent to be horribly inadequate in terms cf the rate of inflation compared to the year before. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Well, Sir, I do not know where the minister got his figures 1428

March 18, 1975 Tape 450 IB-2 there. MR. OTTENHEIMER: He subtracted $1.9 million from the $16.7 million. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: $14 million. MR. F. ROWE: Well, this year the operating grant was $17.8 million and last year it was $16.7 - MR. OTTENHEIMER: Only in the figure because you have to subtract $1.9 million from that. The costs we spent in operating last year had nothing to do with the - _MR. F. ROWE: Okay. Well, I have to accept that, Mr. Chairman. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman,the honourable member for St.

John's Center is so full of hot air that if he stepped into cold air he would go straight up in the air. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Yes, well, you know, some honourable members, Mr. Chairman, are not quite as bright as the member for St. John's Center so it takes a little bit of time to IJilderstand, Sir. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible, MR. F. ROWE: During my IJiliversity education, I must have been de-educated or something compared to the day to day education that the minister got during his years that I spent in education. Now, Mr. Chairman, getting back to the operating grants - it is my 1429

March 18, 1975 Tape 451 (Afternoon) understanding that the school boards, and I have not had an opportunity to talk with anybody yet but I thought I heard it, or I did hear it on a newscast that it has been said that the I PK - 1 school boards required something in exces ·s of a · thirty per cent increase in the operating grant this year in order to cover their anticipated o~erating expenditures. And the minister infoTIDS us that they have 1 in fact)provided a twent