Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 11, 1976 Number 61 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

Tr.e !louse T"et Rt 2: ('10 P .¥. ·~. SpeakPr.:ln the rhnfr. "" SPF.A~Rr: Order, please! TAp(' 251\5 PRESENTING PETITIONS : The hem. l'1P!"her for ll<d<' Verte-Hhfte 'Any. IR-1 HT'. Sl'F.Al?F.l': ~ 'f.'.. "TT'f.f'll'T : ~ ~ r. SpPaker, r hep leave to present ~ petition signed hv 132 res1clents of the col'1!1'unfty of li'oodstock :In my clistrf ct. The prl'lyer of thP petH1on, Sir, iet that the. roatl Je,uUnr to the community of Fooc1stoc!· he nr~traclecl and pnvecl liS soon as the present •mrk is complctecl on the La Scte H1.r.hway.

Now I unclerstnnc1 that that work ,.,"fl J he completer' th1 s Summer and T suggest then and the rraver of th1R pt>t1t1on f'nppests th>~t the rovernment should then tum 1t!l llttention to other roncls in the l'lrea, !lpecifically by roads that leacl to the T.a Scie 'r'oncl. 'rhe roacl leading to Hooclstock, Sir, serves t ~r o C<'l'11'1unities, there is the cormnunity of Pooclstock and the col'l!Tlunity of Pncquet. '!'hose t'm col"l'lunitics have het~1een 1,000 and 1,200 people 11.vinr: :In thPm. !-'any of the people work at Advocate ~'fnes :In Baie Verte and ":tmhJer Mines in Jlaie ''erte Fh:lch means they have to drive that roacl at lenst twice n clay.

Also the ch:l.ldren in the connnun:lties of Hooclstock nnd PaC'.Ottet hnve to be bussecl :Into Ba:le Verte to high school. !lo therefore the roacl :Is exten!lively usecl hy everybody :In the area. l·!p are only talJ.-inr 11hout four miles of highway, four miles r,oin~ out to Poor! stock fro!" the la Sci e l'oac' 11ntl tht>re is another h•o 1!'1] es r,<'inr, c'o~m to Pacnuet. So ft js R total of s:lx miles of road oltop:ether. T tldnk, Sir, the request :!.s a reasonable one.

I th inl· the peop] e have reque!ltec'l it in a reasonable fashion in thl'l.t the y sense the priority of the La Sc.ie l'Oild first but they request thnt ,.,J,en thnt ,,,ork is clone tren attention be piven to other areas. I 1!ft11t1MJrt the petiti.on and I ask that H be laid on the table of the House antl referred to the Clepartment to wh:!ch it relates. "1'! • SPF.AKFT! : The hon. member for Fortune-HermitaRe. M'. J. IHNSI'l'! : Vr. Speaker, I T•ould like to support thfs petition pn~sentec1 hy my collear.ue. I th:lnk the people of Hooc1stock nnd Pacquet 728.'t

V:-~y 11, 197fl Tape 25!\5 !II-2 ~,,.,. J . IHNSI'Il': are he.:lnr. very reasonable in th~1 r request . That is a particularly h;~cl p:ler.e of roan to have to drive over and it must be pretty rough on the1 r ecmiprnent. They have to move back and forth every nay. I have ll'nc:l• pJ eRsure in supporting the T"otion. 'T'he hon. 1'1emher for Baie "erte-Hh:l te Ray . Yr. Speaker, I have a petition. Aga:ln :It comes from the co!!llTlun:lty of ~Joodstock. Th1.s one -is signed by 134 residents. The prayer of the petition is that r.anadian Nat:!onal Telephone r.ol'l!l'un:lcat:lons upgrade their services in that area.

Now, S:lr, 1 am the first one to rea] :lze that that :i.s not the total respom~:fbj Hty of the provinc1al ~overnT"ent. The people realize :It .t'.ncl thev have rMde it cle;tr, I believe, 1n the prayer of the pethion. Hhat thev <tre askinp is that the provinr.ia] ~overnrnent support their efforts nncl my efforts in neal :lnp w1.th CNT, that they upp;r.t'.de the necessary service s in that are;t.

I.Jha t has h"ppenec' to th:ls point, S:lr, is th;tt we ha.ve three or four families on the one telephone line and of course that :Is pract:l .cally an :lmpossihH:!.ty to use the telephone service at all. \Tha.t needs to he dnne :1 s extra cables need to be installed jn that arPa so that ,,,e can cut do•m the number of telephones on the one 11ne.

The peop] e have been in touch '~i- th rNT and they are requesting th"t the <!.ppropr i ate nepartll'ent in this povernment support their efforts. r support the petition and ap:a:l.n I ;tSk that :It be laid "" the tah]e of the House ilnd referred to the appropriate clepartment. ~'Jl. ~PI'AKF.r: The han. ~Hnister of Transportat:lon. ~!T'. "nP<..\N: Jlr.

Sp<'a ker, in spe.ald.np, 1n s11pport of the petition I Hould ]:Ike tn point 011t that only yestPrclav at a meetin!-' ~Tith the federal Minh<ter of ro1'1!11unicl'.t:lons, the hon. ~·aclal"e Sauve, th10.t we c1 i ,.cnssecl this very problel!l whereby :In many cl:l.fferent 10.reas of the l' rovince the telephone service needs to be :l.mprovecl

Hay 11, l97fi Tape 2586 PK - 1 Mr. Morgan: and the agreement is now that there will be a study carried out this Summer hy the Federal Government, and also with the Provincial Government participating as well, and it is hoped that this study w~ll be completed by the end of this Summer. And the purpose of this study is to define the problems that now exist with regards to poo·r telephone service where we have three or four families on the one line, and ooor reception and this kind of thing, four lines.

And once it is completed we then agreed to meet again to define possible solutions or ~etermine them, and also to determine possible means of funding to overcome these problems, in particular with relation to the government telephone service, and when I say government, I mean the r.N Telecommunications. So I am very pleased to support this and the hon. gentleman can be assured of my further efforts in that regard. HR. SPEAKF.R: The hon. member for Placentia. MR. H. PATTERSON: Hr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Fair Haven in Placentia Bay.

It is a small community on the South side of Placentia Bay, it is approximately nine miles from the main road. Now this is as they have it written, this is a petition from the telephone subscribers of Fair Haven. "The telephone service here is useless, because half of the time the phones are not working, lines are always open, there are only four party and multi -·party lines here. "e would perfer a two party line system instead of the above. When we are using the phone anyone can hear the conversation. There are no cables here just open wires.

If it is stormy the phones ring and they" will not stop, and if they have a power failure they are out altogether. There is no battery or emergency power, if electric power is off for days. Therefore we have no telephone service . The nearest community is eighteen miles from here where we o10ul.d have to report a power failure or an emergency that may come up due to a power failure. We are paying the highest rates anywhere in the area for this services. Our last monthly bills were increased from $4.44 for excahnge service to $5.35, plus a bill for $1.52 for what •·· t 728G

May 11, 1976 Tape 2586 PK - 2 )lr. Patterson: they call exchange adjustment service. According to a price list lve received from the Regional Director, Mr. J. Goose, the rate for a four party line is supposed to be $3.50. We asked CN why we are paying the higher rates? They say, they are paying for mileage. He do not understand why we have to pay this higher rate, and no other community has to. For instance, the subscribers of Little Harbour East is connected to the Chance Cove exchange. They are about the same di.stance from Chance Cove as we are from Bellview exehange, and they do not pay any mileage there.

We would not mind paying the higher rate if we had a decent system, but what we have no1v is useless. l<le want the service improved or a new one installed. If this cannot be done we want it disconnected altogether. Nothing is almost as good as what we have now, at least we would not have to pay for nothing. Please give this matter your immediate attention. " I beg that this petition be tabled in the House. clR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. 'fR.-2.:_ A. NEARY: '~r.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition presented in behalf of the people of Fair Haven by the hon. member for Placentia (Hr. Patterson). This problem, Sir, is typical of a problem that exists pretty well all over Newfoundland. I know in my own di'ltrict, in the community of Petites, sometimes the telephone Rervice is out for weeks- it is not CN by the way-- it is out for weeks on a stretch. It has been out since before Christmas, I do not know if it is back in yet or not.

And down on the South Coast CN are just finished installing a new telephone system in the eommunity of Grey River, and they put in a new system with party lines where you have three or four people on the one party ··line, and I have had complaints from Grey River. Now they have moved into LaPoile in my own district and they are putting in a new telephone system where you have the party line, you will have three and four and five people on <1 line, and· the same way in Grand Bruit when they get around to putting the telephone system in Grand Bruit. So they do not seem to be very

"lnv 11, 197f> Tape 2586 I'K - 3 CC'IJl!>Cious of the problem. But with the latest electronic . . . E':quipment that is available today, you ·would think CN and Newfoundland L~p.ht and Newfounc:land Telephone COI!Ipany would be, especially when t'hey ax:e rutting in a new system., puttine in the latest equipJlent avaUable '~here people could have privacy, could have a private line. ~o, ·~r. Speake .r, I just ment:Lon that in passing in supporting thE' m~ber's petition because the people have made a very valid point, Rir, and this is typical of what is 'happening a.ll over th!s Province.

I think it is about time tha.t both the Newfo.undland Telephone CotnPany and the CNT started to change their outlook towards the telephon,e serv:Lce in thi1> Province. ~ . Sl'l':AKER : The bon. member for Fortune-Hernd . ta.ge. ~ J, lviNSOR: I would also like to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Placenti-a, for the people of Fair Haven. They have typ.ical Southwest Coast telephone service as pointed out by the bon. member for LaPoile (M-r. Neary). It is very typical. ,...

. ~iay 11, 1 'l7f; Tnpe 2587 IB-1 ~·r. .J, TTTN~On: Four pnrtv line~. fine! T think some people have as mBny as ten.

I knoF they h;o"e hac' them and the quality of the telephone service all over thf' c0ast is very, very poor and leaves much to be des:l.rerl .• I '""very plel'l<eerl to he;~r the ~'in:fster of Transportation and C:o!'1municat:lons s;o_y that he j I' r.o:tnp; to i'o soll'ething al,out :1 t an<" I hope it is very positjve ;mel verv soon. '-"' "l'EI\l~P.. : The hon. ~·in:lster of Transportation ;mil f'oTI11'11micaticms. ,,.. ~· f'r> C:N: "r. :"peaker, iust a fell.' words tn support ' of the pet:l.tion f.ro~ the resjCients of Fair ~aven.

The hon. gentleman who presented the petition an<" ~vseJf met w~th the residents of that co~un:lty not too 1 onp: a~o, approxil!'ately three 1veeks ago and we discusse<l this very prohlell' .~nrl C'lther prC'Ihlems <'Is '!-Tell.

I assurerl them -then anc:l I also <'tR<eltre thf' hon. rentlemen of this P.ouse that this matter will be hrour,ht to the nttention "f the telephonE' compAny to find out the reasons why :1 neP exchanre '·Yhich •·•aR :lnstallec:l in 1974 h11s not been connecter' and put into oper;~t:IC'n. ~o this 111atter w{lJ be brourht forward by ll'VReJ f to the rep1onal manaper of the GN Teleco!'1I11unications in thi.s Prov~nce. ~'1'. SPEAKEP. : ¥F.S. '1-<ACISM.C:: The hon. T"el"her for St. r.eorge's. "r. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on heh;tlf of 201 residents of the rodroy Va11ey :In the district of St.

Ceorr:e's. The prayer of the pet:ltfon is, "t-Je, the unclers:lp:ned citizens of the l;oclroy Vn]Jey petition your department to provide ,us wHh larger ;~nd more adeqnate sl an)!hter:lnr: facil i!:ies than are presently available i n this area. " In coT"'l'<.>ntin!!: I would like to s::o.y that the livestock 1nrlustry 1n thr Coclroy 1 'alley is (lefin1tely nn the incl:lne and the slau1',hterinr; f;>.c:f]iti.es available :In that area rip:ht nov are very poor. The bnH<"inp :1 s olrl and r:lilapidated.

It i.s much too small tn serve the neet:ls of' the district or the area and barely J'leets the r0~uirements of the Department of ~ealth and other departments concerned. T think 1 f we are to eTtconrap:e l:l.vestock inc:! us try :l.n that area or :l.n any other are~ of the Province one of the priwe concerns should be adequate slau~hterinr, faciljt:fes. I hope that this vilJ be consirlered by the · ·· · 72R'l

~·ny lJ, 1976 1'10pe 25R7 TTl- 2 ~ ' r • <;penver, T a~J.- th"t th:! s net it ~on he rJ ,1ce<l upon the table of the House and referreC! to the nepartment to which it reJate~. ITel'tr, hear! ~~ · ~P E~~~~ . The bon. me~ber for LaPoile. _2'1' . NF.APY : "r. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petit i on for t Hn or three reason!'. Nu!'lber one is that it is the first pet:!t:lon that h:~s been presen .tec' h'' my hon. fr:l .enc1. ~ 'T'. ~:FN'Y: Not the Hr~t petitfon? I thour;ht it l•nlS the f:lrst peti.t:lon. The th:!rcl. The thir~ petition.

But :~nyPav I support it for another re>11~nn, "r. ~peal-:er, that m~· hnn. frienCI reprc>sents a clistr:lct that nC!joinr. my mm <'1r.trict of T,:tPo:!Je. So I h1we to pn s s thrnu f h t h e rH,tr:lct of ~t. rporre's eve> ry t:lme I p;o clolm to my own district. T 11111St SPY th;~t T 1'1.11' - Tl~<s the 111emher rot a perm:lt? ~~E.~PY: - - 'To, yon r:1o not need a perm:! t. Yon rlo not h11.ve to get an i1!1T'1irrntion vis:-> or >lnythin r to pass through tte r.oc1roy V11.Jlev.

Tlut it h<1s to he one of the I'IOSt he11.ut:l ful part~ of Ner.•founn] ;mCI ani' I h"ve not1 ce ri " " T c1 rive rlolm there that thl'rf' are a J nt of c~:~ttJ e :In th?t pnrt ~ c11.lnr p11rt of ~!el.,fonndland. T clo not kno"r liS T"~Y hon. friend says - I can only t"J.-e my hon. frienc1 's •~orn fnr it - that the ntlt"her of beef cattlP, r1n:IT"y cAttle fn the area is :lncreas:lnp. I •·mulrl bel ie"e th:l.s to he true because I havc> not1ced :In the J l'~t ye11r nr so , the l<1"t couple of vears since I have been go1.n~ rlol·m that Pay thAt _there is a tremenr1on~ ntl!l"ber of cattle now.

You c~>n ~ee the!" frol'l the- rn:u! ~>S you rlrive by an.d I am rather l'ma.zerl and surpr:f .sen thnt tl1ey rlo not h11ve arle11uate slaup,hterinp: facilities in that area l1ecam:e :If there is ever an nrea of Newfoundland, l"r. ~peaker, that i" :t na. tur~>l hahitAt: " I' n;otural rep,:lon for beef cattle and for da:lrv r.:~ttle :It :l.s certninly in the r.oclroy V11lley 11nd alRo for farm:lnr: for that matter. ~o T l~ ouln be interested :In henr:ln~ what the ~ in:lster 7 2911

l"<1yll,l976 Tare 2587 I:R-3 ''1'. NF.Al>Y: of Forestry ancl Arricult11re h>~s to say "hont thir< matter. I support the prayer of the · pet i.t:l on and T hope that the 1'\PT"her for St. r..eo~ge 1 s (Hr~'<. ~':1cTsaac) ,..<11 <'et the wish of her constituents grantecl and that they •.r11J p,et iTI'.provecl and 1ncreasec1 ,;laur.hter:fnr facH:Ities in thnt area. 7 2 ~11

~lay 11, 1976 Tape 2588 PK - 1 ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~!0.N_:_l.J-_0tTSSEAU: l'r. Speaker, I met with the farmers on two occasions, one in Rohinsons, and latterly to that out in the Codroy Valley, While I ~.ras there the people who had organized the meeting had me take a look at the slaughtering facilities out there. Unfortunately at that point in time the hon. member was incapacitated and could not make the meeting, and I was aware of the petition at that time.

They gave me a copy of it, and I indicated to them that it would be more appropriate if their member presented it in the House of Assembly. ~·lhile I did not rive them any committnent which I cannot do, we certainly will give it every consideration. I think that one of the more prime areas for a~ricultural in this Province is that area of the Province. There is a lot of good farmland out there. Certainly the farmers have heen very active out there for quite a number of years, and it 1s ~Y hope that we could institute the facilities they need to increase livestock production out there.

They have a very small slaughter house now that in no way serves their need, and I appreciate that. I thin k they appreciate too the problems we have in saying yes we are ~oinp. to do it in a given year. I undertook no commitment to them, but certainl j to give every sympathetic consideration to it, and I did promise too that I would speak on it, and give that indication in the llouse of Ass embly. But I ~Jould certainly think that it is a petition that,in my opinion,merits consideration.

And if we are to see an increase in livestock production on the West Coast especially in the Codroy Valley area then bette .r facilities will be needed. So I can assure the hon. member and the people who signed their name to that petition that every consideration will be given to the request that is Made. TTnfortunately I cannot give any time frame as I told the people at the meeting, but every consideration will be given to their request. l"R. SPF.AKER: The hon. member for Bay of Islands. -,----- ~rn.. L. WOODROW: Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to support the petit1 .on 0 I am glad, first of all that the minister has spoken, and is taking an active

part in this particular part of our Province Where so much could be done in the field of ag~iculture. I am also ' ~·. 7 2 9 :~

May 11, 197f' Tape 2588 PK - 2 "'r. Poodrow : supportinr, it because of course it is good for the Province, and it is also good for the West Coast. I feel that members of the lfest Coast of the Province, not being prejudite of course towards the East Coast of the Province, it does not matter what party we represent, T think we have to try to unite and work together for that part of our Province. Once again I am not being prejudice towards the East Coast, I am not saying that at all. But ar;riculture for the Uest Coast of our Province is a very important thing.

And incidentially it would also have a bearing on the districts of Humber F.ast, Humber West and the district of the Bay of Islands. So I give my whol~hearted support to the petition that my hon. friend from St. George•s (Mrs. Mcisaac). SOME H~N. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Are there any further petitions? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. I.eader of the Opposition. RON. E. M. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

In view of the fact that his department with nREE's authorization, as he tell us, I do not doubt htm for a minute, of course, have called tenders for roads in a number of areas in the Province which roads will be paid for, which contracts will be paid for by a Federal-Provincial arrangement, ~oUJ. the minister tell us (

a) why no tenders have been called for the Northern Peninsula Road, because as he has told me privately work will be done on that road this year I understand, and secondly, when tenders will be called for work on the Northern Peninsula Highway, please? ' " 7293

11ay 11, 1 <l]f,. Tape 2589, Page 1 -- apb l'R. ST'E!IKER: The hnn. the Minister of Transportation ~nrl Communications. ~!r. Speaker, the only ~tnswer to that 'ltii'Stion I can give is that the Federal nepartment of Regional and Economic Expansion, known as DREE, has not given my department the authority to call tenders for that any 'mrk on the Northern Peninsula. lfhat permis.sion they have given us for various pro1ects. these tenders have nmv been called, hut to date they have not given us the authority to call tenders for any "ork on the Northern Peninsula. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. MR.

ROBERTS: }!r. Speaker, the minister did not answer the second half of the question, although he may not be able to, but could the minister tell us then - he said DREE had not given authority to his department - whether DREE has given authority to any other dep~trtment, and if not is there a hold-up? lolhat is the hold-up? }fR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, my only contact with the federal nepartment of Regional and Economic Expansion was to request permission to call tenders.

The negotiations for the ~mrk to he carried out hy the federal-provincial agreement was done by my colleague the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. My only contact was to request permission to get tendez:s called so the work can commence as soon as possible, because of the shortness of the season. So maybe the bon. gentleman, my bon. colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental-Affairs may feel like commenting on the an~Ter to that question. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker.- NR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is going to add a few comments. HR. CROSBIE: Hr.

Speaker, negotiations have taken place in connection with the Highways agreement for this year now and I _i 7 29•~

'lay 11, 1976, Tape 2589, Page 2 -- apb "IR. CROSBIE: we thought the matter was settled long --- --- ago. Last Wednesday I saw the Deputy Minister of the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion, in Ottawa, and I have suggested to them the urgency with which this matter should be approached. All items are agreed, that I know of. We cannot say wl1at the programme is because, of course, the procedure is that there should be a jotnt announcement. We can only confirm that the roads for which tenders have been called are included in the programme, but we are hoping to sign a two-year-programme. MR.

ROBERTS: Where is the hold-up, here or in Ottawa? MR. CROSBIE: The hold-up, if that is what you want to call it, is in Ottawa,because it was all settled as far as we were concerned, quite some time ago. Then there was some discussion about a week or ten days ago about certain changes which we have agreed to, and we are now ~•aiting for procedures to be followed up in Ottawa. In the meantime, they did give their consent to tenders being called on these six roads, I think, that are in the paper. I think it has to go to the Federal Treasury Board, and how long this is going to take I do not lmow. MR.

ROBERTS: ------- Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: I thank both ministers, Sir, and if I could ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs a further question, a supplementary1 He said that there were some changes requested, and I want to be awfully clear. I thought I heard him say that the government here have now agreed to these. Is this, in fact, the situation' that the government here have agreed to whatever these requested changes were and that it now awaits, I suppose, executive action by the government at Ottawaf ~IR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the programme ~.ra:s put up long ago under the programme that we suggested. But about ten days or nm ~•eeks ago certain changes were suggested from Ottawa with respect to certain roads in this agreement. We,being statesmen, "'29r ' . .)

lay 11, 1Q76, Tape 2589, Page 3 -- apb ~allowed our annoyance at this and we hnve agreed to the cha nges up there. The man who pays t he piper cal~s the tune. Therefore , these changes were ay,reed to last week :md 1•e are now w:~ iting for them to let us know t•hen its - HR. NF.ARY: MR. c;ROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR •.. SPEAKER: Rot cake. Well; I e.annot very well say that. Mr. Speaker. The bon. the member for J.a.Poile, then the han. the member for tundsor-Buchans. SOME. RON. MEMBERS: 1-IR, Sl'EAKER: !'fR• NEARY: Oh, oh: Order! Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the hon. the Premier, Sir, I would like to direct a question to the gcvernm~t House Leader, and ask the .gcvert~Jnent House Leader if in view of the fact that Statistics Ca~cia today announced that 1110re than 1 1 000 people are unemJ)loyed this month as compared to last l!lonth, that we naw 'have record joblessness, record unemployment in Newfoundland, what measures, what emergency measures .are the .goveniment going to take in the way of job creation to deal with record unemployment in Newfoundland at this particular til!le? ' !;, 72!}{) ,., ,.,

"ay 11, 1976 Tape 2590 IB-1 H]>. SPEAKF.P.: The hon. ¥:1.n:lster ,.,fthout Portfolio. '·'r. ~peaJ.-er, it is true that there is high unemployment. This :Is " c.vc-licnJ thinp: that has been p.oinr: on for :t !'reat number nf ye:trs. The othe>r t h:lnr: :f,; th'lt this government since :It came :Into office sn!'le f'ive ~·ears ap;n have ma~e p;reat str:l des :In creating jobs.

The nn] v th1np: i" nf cnurse as ~'e JTIUSt all recnp:rdze that there are more penple cnmin<' out nf school.,university, tracles college and onto the .i nh melrk!>.t every 111onth ann every year than there possibly can be jobs created for them to fill. So that this :Is the situation ann we have createn many, many more jobs hy government act:lon. j'o.J-.T .JlfiN. >'J',l'RF.l': r.an the minister Jist some of them? •'l'. '·IELLS: I cannot JJ s t nor.•. I could po throup,h and provide thern there if' no qnestion about that.

But I think the point is not tlta.t the povern!l'ent has to or can even introduce crash programmes to take care of thinp:s of this sort hut ra.ther that the government have lonp ranp;e <"nCI proper p-rop,ral'11!1es that wlll of themselves as time progressPs t11ke care of the - or. insofar as that :l.s possible - of the matter of job c-reat:lon. Rut I think i.t rmuld be si J] y for anvone to surrest with the numbers of young people leav:lnp school, Jea.vinf' trades coll.e~es and leavinr, university, that :In any p;iven month or any r:!ve Spr:!nr they can all be taken CRre of and .1obs found.

Rut 1n due eonrse they can and '~:l.ll be absorbed, Mr. Speaker, into the Jahour force. 1'1'. Nr:APY : A !'mnpJement~try question, !fr. Speaker. Is the min:lster mvare that in the announcement by Statistics r.anada today thflt one of the stat:ff'tjcs re]eRsecl was that the work force has remained stable over the - ~'I'. l'I'JJIFT>T~: ------- It is smr-tller now than :f.t was a year aeo. '>?. NF.APY: Actually j t is smaller than it r.•as a year ago. So that · ·pi o~res the minister's ilTP.UJIIent. llut I TJonder. what the m1.n:!ster ' ''nttl r tell the T'.ouse.

Tn the J onp: ranp:e prorra .!'ll'le what projec-ts ,,.;JJ bp lnunr.hecl this vear 1n the puhlic ,;ector to c-reate 1ohs for those

~'ay 11, 1976 Tape 2590 IB-2 ~fll. N~Al'Y: who are Jookin~ for workf Included in the long range programme this year, what P"'rt of the long range programme ,.7f1J . be started this year to create r•ork for Newfoundlanders who arP. unemployed<'. ~!T',. SPF.AKl'T>: The hon. ~finister r.rithout Portfol:l o. 1rr. ''JELLS: Vr. Speaker, on the matter of the n.rst point that the hon. gentleml'tn T"ade which was that the work force, that the number of 1oJ:.s in other I•TOrrls, is dec-reasinp.. No, no. The total work force. MR. NEArY: "'1'. T.ffiLL~: Oh, the total work force is decreasing.

That under the present systel!l, ~r. ~peaker, :l.s difficult. There are so many causes for that. '!'he fact that peopJe, as I understand :It, engaeetl :In tra:l.ning of one sort or another: The fact that var:lous peopls from time to time may 1"ant to he off the job l!larket. YP. NEA!'Y: Forced to leave them. }'!'.. 't1F.LLS : They are using new formulas. People from time to t:lme - ~'1',. P.OBFP..TS: '!'he firures are computed on the same formula. MR. HELL!'l: PeopJ e from time to time leave the Province and p;o e l!::e,·rhere l'ts they al"'ays have done in Newfoundland. There are so many factors, Mr.

Speaker, :lnvolverl there that it is impossible at any p;iven time to say ~~at the cause of something is. I am su:te if Statistics ranacla "'ere aware of the complete causes of any of these phenomenon, they too would say so. 1~.

NEARY: The secon~ part of the question is what programmes will be started this year. ~. l!F:LLS: The r.overnt11.ent of Newfoundland as we all know is caught up in the business of fip,hting inflation which is not only common to Newfoundland but common to Canada, common to the J.Testern The Anti-:lnfJat:l .on Board has imposecl certain strictures on us and on _ this governMent, you know, which cannot be ignored, The programmes of the government and what the government is going to do by way of spending public monies of course are well-known and these are publ:l.c rnl'ltters.

The expendi!;ure of public monies will give a :. 729S

Tape 2590 IB-3 '1". 'JT:ll,S: certa:1n nu~~>hP.r of johR thJs year in Newfou!'ldlRnd. They always do. ThE' other thinp,s of course, 1-!r. Speaker, is that the job f!\3Ti-Pt 1.n lJ pf rl- np in Ne1~fmmdland fToll' no..- on into the Sl)rinp and And therE' is nothtnp, really to chanr.e the overall position vis-a-vis Newfoundland and the job market except of course that circ1mstAnces entirely beyon~ the control of Newfoundland, :1n fact to some extent heyonrl the control of r.anada, has meant that this is R difficult period in terMs of job creation. lA'R. NEARY: "r.

Speaker, the view pfven to l!'e by the r.overnment !to use T.eacler on behalf of the PrE!l'lier and behalf of the govermne:nt, Si r, I sm dissat1Rfted with the Answer to my various questions that I put to the minister about uneroployment and job creation and I wish to ~ehste the ~tter during the Late Show on Thursday comfnp. Yp. SPF.AKF:l': l-'T>. r.onF.r.Ts: ~peaker. 'Kl' • SPEAKl'l' : A supple~entary? No, I want to ask a question if it 1s in order, Mr. rirh t . The hon. J.eac:!er of the Opposition . _!<P. PI1Rl'RTC:: "r . SpeAker, lilY. question should not take l on& to Rn~n~e r. It ls to thP Premier.

Could the Pre!'lier confirm or deny as the case mav he, thAt t he rule appJytng to ~~>inisters for travel within Canacla ts thnt they are not to use first-class a i r travel? You know what T II'S An, not to travel f:l r:::t-cl ass where there is economy class space avaiJ l!h]e. The h~a. the Pr~er.

><a'{ ll, 19711 "'npe 25C)l IR-1 As T nn<:1crstanfl it, '~r. ~p<>;oker, I <'lll' nl't - T ~·j 11 c:hrck H l'lnd l"akc abs!'lnt~]y sure. As T nn<lerstanfl tt,yes. T'h:<1t ig tre rule. The hon. T'1emher for ~lindsor-lluchans. - - ~_n.H:YJT: ''r.

SpeakPr, this nuest1on to the ":ln:fster of Provindal IJ:f] J the mjnister t~<'v:l se the House I'.R to ,,•hether or not hC' h11s rece:fvefl any compJ 11jnts or re('!nests to invest:tp.ate thr nr!'pert~· r'nT"ilf'<" hnth pnbl:f_c Emd pr:fv:1te that h11ve rPsnl ten m•er the pl'lst i'ive nr si:v r'11ys fro"' the hir;h ~rater levels that have been peTT'1:1tted to accuTI'ulate :In T'efl In<"ian Lake '• As the minister :Is awarP the J evel of T'prl Tnc'11 an Lake :1 s controJ .led by Pr:f ce (Nflrl), hv the uf:e of tl1ei r rlnl"' <~t the rnn off :In l'erl Inclian Lnl··e. "' SPF.AT:F"': Tl1e ron.

"in:l~ter nf Provinc:lnJ Affairs and F.nv:lronrnent. '"" J'l'I'J'HY: 'l'o my 1<-no~•Jec1 r,e ,.,e have rece:lvE'd no COT'1pla:lnts or ;my r.orre~poncr.nce relatinr- to s11me. The only' th:ln~>; I kno~r, is last week the>re the hon. memher expressecl some fe11.rs that the •Aaters were r:lsin~t on '"'eo IncHan T.a1•e an<' there ,,,aR preat fear that the da'!l' 1~as p;o:!.np,. J think this 1~a!' 11 1 ittJ e h:lt of. hyster1 a arif':lnc fro"' the other. Rut <11.d te fr!lnlc] y ,.,e ht~Vf' not receive(~ anv int :!mat:! on from anyhodv :"S to dam<'lfe.

Tf the Pon. memher is aware of any I ~muJd be only too h1'PP'f to h11ve it checked out. ''~' ~PF.AKET': Tl1e hon. mernher for ~inclscr-Buchans. ~'1'. FJ.T.r.HT: · nne supplementary, ?'r. Speaker. To the minister, Sir. namnre !1<~:; orcnrrecl. Puhl:!c roans are ,.rasher' out and cabins are f:tl] in~ out intC1 the J nke. Thl'!.t is a fact. Nm• the question, Sir.

J,J:! 11 the m:fn:!f'ter assure the House that h:l.s department 1-1:!.1 1 :l.nvest:l gate the claT'1ar.e Hi t.h 11 v:l P.1·' to cleterm:!n:lnp; 1~hetber or not the damage ~~as justH:fecl nnd ~1hether or not the people whose property ltlls heen clamar-ed hnve 11 riv,ht to expf' .ct to he re:l .mhursed[ If so, hy ~rhom? ?'P • ~PI' AKJ\P : The hon. "ini ster of Provincia) Affa:l .rs and Environment. ~"T'. MURPHY: T '"au] cl apprec:l.ate :It if the han. roeynber would give me a mel'!o.

I do not know if it is the res-pon~ibility of the De'Par .tment of l'nv:!r<tlnl"ent or not tC' look at these things but T HHJ cert;::oinly see that the clep;ortment r.esponsible ,,rill check :It. I 1-:rill in the first 730fl

~fay 11, 197fi Tape ?591 IB-2 '1>. l'lllWl!Y: instancE>. Rut if the hon. l"Pmher 't.•ill give me a memo I woul c't be onlv too happy to h:we the thing checked out and let him know perhaps th:f.s afternoon. IT. SPE;IlCEn: '!'he hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. 1"1'. Rmm: 'fr.

Speaker, I have a Question for the ~!inister of ~ines and F.nery.y if he ;s listening, Sir. 1-Tould the minister care to comment on the latest announcement hy Eastcan that they are not planning to <'lh:mc'ton exploration off our coast this Summer in spite of the fact that they do not have the equipment yet and they do not have any detailed plans as to ••here and •~hl'n thev are going to drill which mnkes the m:ln:l ster 's statement yesterday look kincl of sick and .1aunc'ticed and squeamish to say the Jeast? JIP. S'PEAKF.R: The hon. ~!inister of 'Mines and Energy. 1'1'. (':JlOSJHE: ~·r.

Speaker, it is a ,,,onder that any company like Eaatcan or any other deigns to clo any business in this Province whatsoever because every t:f.me they are askec for a comment ?r questioned or say anything their words are twisted in every concefvable direction. l"!Jl. ROioffi: By whom? I'R. CP.nSJ\IF.: By whoever hears it• By the press, by the media and by others. T-Jell not this Opposition. ~IP. rROSBIF.: Eastcan has heen checked with. There is absolutely no change in East can' s plans for exploration ac:tivity off the r.ol'st of Labrador th:ls year, none, ahsolutely none.

Rastcim are chagrined, disappo:lnted, humil:l.ated that "henever they are asked a cmest1on or ,,,henever any eli scussion comes up the ,,•hole thing gets t'A•istecl. As a matter of fact Ea.tcan are coming down here May 20 to discuss with us their prop,ramme for the year and all the details of it. There :l.s always a slight chance that they may have difficulty gettin!', l'lhips "ntl gettinp; the equfpment just ~·hen they need it. ~. ~OWF.: How hip is that aliRht ehanee? ~~. CP.nSliTE: Their intentions are and their plans are to have two drHl sh:lps and a sem:l-submersihle ri~ in operation off Labracor this k. 7301

'-'1\y 11, J076 TapP. 2591 IB-3 ~'R. r.P!'lSllTT\: ycor. That is their plan~. The semi-~uhmPndhle r:lp. to c01'1e on in September J-.ecause it cat!. he us eel later in the sea.son. Scu'le th :1 nr. l'l'llY happen. There 1 s ah~ays some sma]J chance that so!Tlethinr may happen to ilE'1<>v one rof the ships, the SP1'1':1-suhmers:lhle rip; or t~hatever. llut thllt is thP:Ir plans. That is their :Intention. And unless some fortuHou!> E'vent outs:f .dE' their control occurs that is t~hat they 1·1Hl be doinr i.n th:ls "!'rovince thi.s year.

Kaatcan are explorinf' on the 111nst prospE'ctive nrea of t~~~~ whole F.astern ~nnacl:lan offsJ-.orP., and nntnrally tht>y are go:lng to eo fuH t:ll t ahead. nut the question ash•<" about, is th:fs 101") peT cent st~re, :Is everythinr "imPel, S<:'lllet'l and deliverer~ th:ls year, they 1dll have to ans~'P.r. Well there :Is al.w:tys a slight chance there may he ilelay or '·'e m:l.eht not l"E't a ship or t~h11tever. Then :l.t gets tw:l.stecl that they are not plllf'n:l .n f- to rlo 2 prograrmre here this year.

I met ~·:fth them only tPro weeks arc in 0uebec rity when they told me ,.,hat They are Cl'l'l:lng down here aga:ln on the t,,,ent:leth. These are their T'lans. They h;we no intention of not con<1ucting ext<:'ns:lve e:v:T'loration '•'Ork off the Coast of ~~e~,foundland th:ls year t~nless somethinr occurs out of th~er control to prevent it. jp, the position on Eastcan. The hon. 11'e!T'ber for Tr1n:l ty-'Bay de ''ertle. So that ''n. <;T>J':AJ<l>l': •m PnHl': /1 suppleTI'E'ntary. )'r.

Speaker, I hope the minister would forrive our Rnxieties hut Phen one reads a press release fro!TI the staff :tt r.alr.arv, /llherta statinp. - welJ I ~·:Ill put :l.t in the fonn of ~ quest:! on. 7 3 0 :. ~

~<ay 11, 1976 Tape 2592 IB-1 ~m. ROWE: ts H true or is it accurate this statement here that the company has not yet secured drill:lng equipment for the ~ummer's proposed offshore progrrumme on the Labrador Shelf? Is it true that it has not worked out details of where - MJ1. LUNDRIGAN: He cannot answer that. ~. 'P.OI-7E: If the hon. minister "~>rants to t;et up on a point of order he can do so, S:lr, w:l.thout jabbering away there. But would the minister suggest that the news report is erroneous and inaccurate or whether it is true? This is what we are trying to find out. YP_. CROSBIE: 1-"r.

Speaker, I am not going to answer quest ions from Hr. Dennis nuffy or Duffy nenn:l.s - }'!! .• ROT.JF.: Jlut he is with Eastcan. MR. CRO~BJE: -or whatever the name is -what is his name? ~'P. Rm~: T'lenni s Tluff. M1l. M!Jl~BJF.: Dennis nuff. ~?e have spoken to that poor gentleman :In the last twenty-four hours who i• 'chagrined that every word he has uttered has been twisted and who says he will not be uttering any more words because you cannot utter a lmrd down here that is not twisted out of all reasonable shape. I do not know if Eastcan has the contracts entered into and signed and so on and so forth.

I am informing the House of what their plans and intentions are. It may be that they have not got these ships signed up yet. It may be the ships are doing other work and they have to wait and see exactly when they are available. That is the:! r business. I am telling the House what East can' s intentions are, what they intend to do this year if they are not prevented by acts of r.od, the Queen's enemies and other fortuitous events - ~1F .• !?OWE: Or the government. ~m. r'POSBTE: - force ~ajure out of their control. AN HON. W':M!EP: They are anxious, Mr. Speaker. ~'1'. r.'POSBIE: Are anxious, yes.

They are on the beat area off I"ahrador. ~"". S"ALLI 001' : And are making every effort. Yn. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. minister is speaking. • l 7303

'lily 11, l97ti Tnpe 25~2 IB-2 ~'T'. r.no~nn: : The hon. p,entl eman for 'J'l,riJ.l :In gate ("r. ~mallwoorl) is rfrht C.n, "r. ~peaker, they are mak1Pr, every effort. HT', T'OHT': The rovernment had all sorts of !!OOd :Intentions. "" srr.AK:r.r: The hon. member for LaPoile and then the hon. member for roncPpt:f<"n B11y ~outh. .,,.. • NF.~.

T'Y : "r. ~peaker, I would like to :u;lr the ~'in:fster of TransportRtie>n 1\ntl roi"IT!nnfcl\tic:>nf' 11hont the str:lke by hip:hp;oy employees :In the 1·'hite H:f11s. r..,,lrl tt>e m:lnfster rive us smne inf<"rm;ot .fon in crmnect:fon •>ith th,~t strflre~' What it is 11ll about, ,,rhr~t. c11nsed the t•ro e!T'ployees t<" hP eli smi ssec am! ,,rhy the r:rievance was not str11i r:htened ot•t throup:h the r.ricvllnc<' proreihtre of the NAPF a:;reel'lent and so forth? 'P.:Ither the ~·:Jnister of T'in11nce or the ":ln:!Rter of Tr:msportat:lon.

J do not c:;-re •rhir.h oT'e nrHwcrs 11s Jon::; as we r:et the :Information. , .,., !"T'EAKT\T": The hnn. 1'in:lster of Transportation. 1'r. Spe11l--er, c ,.,:fll not anS'I'·rer the question in relation to thE> de11l :lnp,s l·:i th '!APJL That :l.s not I!!Y role in p,overnment. The Treasnry Bonrn are deRl fnr, l>:l th t:t~.PE. llut I •YilJ g:lve the House of A!•semhly the reRsons for the suspension of tl•'O employees of my c!epart'l!lent at the '·'hite IT:fJls. They were involven in B. h:lt of a rucku,; on the c1epot s:lte cnd.nB workinp hours and in T"Y v:lew · it w ;o!' imprnpP.r confluct.

There was also damage to gove~t property and because t.h.--tt the !lnsrer- ,sfon for one Clay ~'as p,:lven to tl-70 el'!ployeeF.l. /1.,; a rcsuJt of the s11spensinn r uncerstan<l a number of employees walked out in protest of this Sllspen,;ion. A supplementary question, Yr. Spe~ker. Tfuat :Ill the proper .rrocec'ure in the cBse of :Improper behavi .or on the pArt of nT"pJoyees? Ts it a warn:lnr :In wr:lt:lng or is :It a one d.ay Anspens:lrm? ll'hat 1" the proper proceclure unt"er the ar:reement, under the NAPE :wrce,..,ent? ''!' . ~PT-:AT<Fr: The hon.

"in:lster of Finance. : "'. noonv : There :l.s :t. meet:ln{!: be:lng arranged tM s afternoon bet~:een Hr, T.ockinr; of NAPF and Tre<~sury :1\oarfl officials to look :Into wh8.t the rriev11nce is, what. the situatton is and ,,,hat the regress is, what the solution is. T I"T" not lluff:lc:lently faTT!ilar t.•ith the backBrounfl on tt to .,, 7 3 0 i

~ay 11, 1976 Tape 2592 1'1>. DOODY : report to the llouse in any deta:ll at th1.s t:lme. J,ater on th:ls afternoon, as I say, T hope the Treasury Board and NAPE officials IB-3 ~~111 get together anc1 whatever the situation :Is at that time, you know, I ~1:111 he in a position to inform the House tomorrow 'or whenever the next ~uestton :Is. Hr. SPEAKF.l': The hon. member for Conception Ray South. MR. NOLAN: ~r. Speaker, a question for the ~inister of Transportation and r.ommunicat:lons.

J.s the minister knows there has been a. lot of discussion anrl concern about the ferry rates coming into Newfoundland and 1: arn wonderlng - I have information that :l.ndicates I believe the minister may have meetings in store in this regard - I am wondering how serious the problem is from the information he might have available within his department at the moment and what if anything can he done about :It and what does he hope to ach:l.eve hopefully at meetings if :In fact there are meetings in the foreseeable future? YP. SPEAKER: ~. }'ORGAN: The hon. ~!inister of Transportation and Communications. Yes, 1-'r.

Speaker. ~y colleague, the Hinister of Tourism ar.d myself will he meeting tomorrow with the federal Minister of Transport, the hon. Otto Lang to put forward Newfoundland's pos:l.tion, the Province's position in opposition to the increase in ferry rates both from North Sydney to Port aux Basques and from North Sydney to ArgentiP .• As Minister of Transport I am particularly concerned over the substantial increase in the cost to move freight r f. 7305

"av 11, 19711 IB-1 t''P.. t'OT'C.AN: fro~ ~orth ~ynney to Port ~ux Rasques. The increase is fifty-two per cent. 'l'hh; ;Is the r>ew increase that is now !~posen by J'"st r:o,.st "<~r1ne T<'errv ~f'l'V:Ices. '·!hat 1 am concemecl 11hout is the TJOSs:lbiJity tl•n.t. thh ir>c-rr.nr.!'rl cost of movinp freipht across the r.u] f ·l~ill he E'ventmolly r"sst"cl on tn the sh:l.ppers and to the consumers. So that is one ~a.ior r>oint for tomorro~1 1 s discussion. 'l'}JP other is that "'e are <mite concerned over the substant.'laJ increase :In t'te trud..-fnr rates to Argentia.

They have increased the rlltcs ther<' hy th1.rtv nf'r cent <1nd no increase cotning into Port aux llm<'lUPS ~,•hicr !"eP.ns th:1t f1ract:1.calJy from here on in 100 pel:' cent of ,., the trucks •,•iJ l no~oY he cmdnp into Port aux Bas 'lues and not Argentia. The Province 1 s posit:! on is that 1~e "'ould like to see more true~ t:ai,ers, the hPf'lvy vehicle trnff:lc co~ing :Into Argentia and more of the fre:l rht r;c-:!nr; on to thP. ran s fro~ l'n,.t aux Basques.

So these are the points ,..e viJ1 he pntt:lnp.: fon'arn to the federal minister tomorrm·'· nf coursP my collea~ue is concernecl over the effect it 1 r. r:oinr tn h:we on Tour:! syn hP.c:'\nse the llCCr>r"''or1atj ons on the boat!" has :ln<:T'I'Il!'e<' 1->v siyty per cnnt co!"in~ 'Inti" Jrpent'la. These are Pr feel it •dl 1 affect • ecnnomv, numher one f:o we will he pntt:lnf.!

F"rw•r•1 our J11"'S1tion toynoTro,. t.o tl->E' fl'<'er:!ll 1"1n1 "ter 'In the hope that '"'· N"'AT'Y· -------- >~. ~""~J'cJ'"" :_ '1'1-e hnn. l"Pl"'•er For LaPo:t 1 e. ~·r. ~pe;oker, T H'u'd like to ask the rnin'l .!"ter if the jo:lnt "onsnlt::~t:lvr. cnl'11'!ittee COI'lr>ris:!.nr nf the un1.ons nf the raih~"Y• of the tn~m council nnd of tre rl,amher of romtr'err:e and various hotl:fes in l'ort mL'< r.;t"<lltCf< nnd :In Arpenti;- hearle(l up by '!'r.

Sull:l .van, the presinent nf tl->e "P:>ion~tl rolJE'!'<' i·;, r: .... rner ~rook, if the jo:l.nt com;u]tative co~:ittre h11s h,.<l nny innut i.n the present:o.tion that the Hinister. of Tourism or th<' YiniatPr ni' Tr.ansport~ttjon •.-d ]] he !'lakinp, to 0ttP.Ha? t .. ... 73011

''ay 11, 197f; Tape 2593 IB-2 ''P. NEA'RY: If they have not had any input, have they been asked to make a contribution cr have they been .1ust ignored in this whole situRtion? ~'R. ~PFAY.E'!': Y1l. ~!0l'C'.'\N: The hon. }!in:! ster of Transportation and Connnun:l cations. "r. ~peaker, nobody in this Prov:lnce has been ignored because just J ast week I, in fact, recall making R public statement ur~ing all concerned c:ltizens in this Province to express their opposition and concern over the substantial increase in the ferry rates wh:lch :Is eo:lnr to affect our economy.

I have had substantial input fro~ the wtrious unions :In the l'rovince, the ra:l. h~ay unions in particular and I h.ave met ~lith tvorkers for example, employees of CN, in particular dockyard emplovees and others, throughout the Province. So there is nobody left out. I all' hoping that everybody "1-Yho is concerned about this matter t.'ill brtng forward representation to me so I can put it fo~vard to the federal minister. ~"'. NFAPY: A suppJ ementary question, ~-'r. Speaker. >Toulcl the win:l.ster unclertake to ?et in touch l'dth nr.

Sullivan, the Cha:l.rrnan of the joint consultative coiTlll'ittee, to find out the views of that col'lmittee . who reprc>sent everybody involved in tl">e transportation business in connection t,r:fth rN, to find out their views and what contribution that they can make to th:ls presentation that the minister is going to m11ke in nttav.a. I say this in all seriousness hecause they have been at th:ls for years and the cost of the meetings of the joint consultative committee ts paid by f.anada :Manpower, pain hy the Government of Canada. They meet once a month I believe. undertake tn pet that information?

Jn:'. }fl)f'GA"l: J P:l1] . HouJd the minister Ml'. SPFAKR": The hon. member for Conception Ray South. _:'TI. NOLftN: ''r. Speaker, a question for the M:Jn:lster of }'ines and T'nergy. I understan<' that the minister is, I believe, to go to the t'ainland to111orrow, possibly Toronto. One, what is the purpose of the visit? Is it a conference? r'loeg he hope to achieve? What is to be discussed and what The hon. M1n1ster of !-fines and Energy. 731)7

l•;,y 1 J, ]'!7(o Jl\-3 1'r. !'roe,ker, as t.o whether nnvthin~ ,~:!]) h<" !!r.hievecl, 11nt t he purpose of the meetiP .p: ; 1t :fs a !".e. et;n~ nrrnnh:er' hy the Province of Ne1~fmmdland as n result of the.

Prelft1er's There •-r~s a resolution pnssea t.t.nt the que,-,t.ion of pntri;~tion of the constitution !'lnd other l'latters in ~onnection Pith thE- const5tntion, that the provinces shnul c1 b e. c.qTwasRe.c1 t'tnrinr the year hy the Pre111:f er Clf Ne~•foundJ and nr hy the r.overn111ent of Ne~•fnunnbmc1 to ascertain what the positions •·•ere on th.1t l'IRtteT so it coul fl hP c1iscnl!1secl ap,:;dn in ~nrust in Alberta. l"'f enn-rse 1n the n>e<~!'lti'!le the Prime ~<in:!!'tE'r has !l'ade the :lssne a vrry enrrent nnE' hv his request or 1d.sh that the constitution he pntr1nter1 r~h:lch h11s hE'en cl:lscussec1 hr:fefly by the PreJ!I:Ier I th:lnk at t.heit ll'eetinr :fn l"ltt~T-711 J:>st week.

Tn any event tl>e purpose of. this meeting is it is a l!leeting of the representatives of the ten provincial governments, either their ll'in1sters Clf interr.ove~"'entaJ affairs or justice or whoever they have :In charr.e nf tld.s qne~t:lon. '!'he purpose :Is to try to see what the posit:!Cin of e~ch province is ~n those questions so that their Premiers e;m '"' hr1efl'rl for , 1'1Pf't1nr in June. that they ~·ill be hav:ln!!' with thE' l'ri!'lr ''1n~~tPr to l•no~· ~·hat the var:IC1u5 pf'sit:fons are l'<O that thcv c~n comdcler thf'. onest:fon :l.n 111ore cletl'l.il :In /lupm•t at the Premier's r.onfe.rencf' in Alberta.

Sr the "'inister of .Jnst:lre anc1 1 -.1:!Jl 1:-e t~l(·rr. ;me' !'r. Ahery froll' th:IR Prov:!nce. All prov:lnceR are !!'Oinp, to rP. trere T think eYcert "'e h1we not hearc1 fro!" !''an:! toba yet but T ht'lieve thev T·•il J be th~re >!]so. The hon. !'!ember f. or lHndosor-Buchans. 7 :.l 0 ~~

l"ay 11, 1971'> Tnpe 2594 I!l-1 ~'R. FLH'HT: Hr. Speaker, th:l.s question to the Hinister of l'"oreiltry and Ar.r:l cult\lre. Pou1d the minister aclvise the House what action h:ls nepartment intends to take with regarns to the thousands and thousanc1" anc thousan<1s of cords of wooc that are now free floating on Rec1 Inn-fan T.~ke th>tt are up on the beaches, up :In the woods, thousanns of corns of wood being permitten to flow free on Red Indian LAke by T'r:f ~e (Nfl d) • MR. RIDEOtrr: llnc1 "eer Lake. ~·r>.

FJ,TCH'~': '·!ell "er Indtan Lake I am avare of• Hu!ldreds of thousanc1R nf core's nf ,.rood over the years. ~'1'. ~l'F.M'f"': 'l'he hem. l·'in:fster of Forestry and Agriculture .- >·IT' l'nTT~~P.ATT: ~·,.. Spellker, the hon. member ~rour,ht that up a little '•'h i le ap:n a nil I in.dtcated that the clepartrnent was not aware of it. I have checJ.:ec1 into :Jt in the department and T·7e are lookin!! at the 1natter no"' tn f:lnd out just what wood :l.s there and what our intentions are -!.n respect to :it.

I said some time af!o - Rnd I was completely m:l Rinterpreted hy the !'1ernher vrhen I suggested that.' woe tt> the one who left woon on :lt. I ~>as talldng of when we C&l!le under the Forest ~';magernent PoHcy ann T hope I expla:l.ned that to the member adequately the last tiiT'e. ~s a result of questions ra:lsed recently by the mewh>r I have asl<ec1 people :l.n the department to check out just v7hat Pc-oc1 :Is there and certainly :If it :Is there we wHl have a talk.

I hope to he meetinp- 'With Pr:lce,if it :Is Price wooc1 in that area, next l'eek :In (;rand l"all s and we ,,.;11 certainly br:l.np; the matter to their attention ~t that ti~e even :If c c1o not have the report. I ,,,nJ be meet:l.ng 'With :llowaters tomorrow morning here in St. John's, the penera) manager and the vice-president, the manager of ~·,oo~ operations and ~ve tv111 also hr:l.ng that point to their attention as well and indicate to them thet we are lookinp, into the ~atter of •mon that :l.s Jeft 1.n these areas and especially on rivers.

T think the time has come when we have to look at that as a means of tranRportat:lon of o;.•ood. I th:lnk t-re are Bpending over $5 million on forest access roads and hopefully we can use that form of ' i£; 730~1

Tape 2594 IB-2 ~'1". r>Ol'~~F.AT': transportatiof! . for Hnc><l rather than the rivers of our T'rc>vince which suffer fro!"' tj.e.lf' 5n the l<>n!!' run. ~m. SPEAXF.n: The hon. memher for r.onception P.ay ~outh. T0 the ~at!'le minister. Is there nny goo~ rel'!son r·rhv ~f T>d cP is at f;ml t nr Tlo•~aters or whoever, ~'~Y they should not he re~ponsfhJe7 ~urelv the ~~n1ster is not cons1~ering spendinp public money to c]e~n up their mess? ""'. rm•::;r-r. .... l': The m:lnister cHd not say that.

The minister said that be~;ause of the 11.mntmt of money ,.,e are putting in the forest access roarlR no•·• there shouJ d not he a need in the future tc use the rivers that •rJe have aJways uRed traditionally in the Provi.nce to trl'lnsport 1000~. T can l'!ssure the hon. l'lel'lher that :l.f Pr.ice and Ror.1aters lJ~tve left ,.,oncl fro,.. Hhence f t should come, that it is not this government 1 s intentic>n to pay for the transportation of it. T1T1'e has exr:lred. O'lmF.P~ nF 'T'HF: MY: -'~'"A.T!Y: l'r. Speaker: ~F. TT "f.~I")J.VF.n th11t the T"er,ular orilel:' nf hnsiness of thh; hnn.

House l-<> sm;pE>nderl to rHscnss a !'latter of urr,ent provincial wide :Importance, nmnpl v, recCtrrl .1 ohJ essnesR throuBhout Newfrunrllancl and r,ahrarlor. at 1'1 t11"e nf the yenr "'hen ~oh opportuntty should bP. openinr, up. outlook extre1"'el)' hle,J.-, "r. ~peaker, and no !'ip,n of jobR bein~ cre.:1terl ei.ther in the private oT' ruhl tc. sector:" :It f.s " 1'1atter of utmost importance, f. ·Jr, th:1t this )louse tackle the joh of set.tinp up an emerr:ency ,jol' CTC'/lt~on pTOl':TI'1"'1'1e ~·dthont further clelay ancl that alJ otlu:~r huillnef':" of thif' l10n.

"onRE' shonld he suspenrlerl unt:l .l ~~e h::n•e dealt ,,dth N""founc'lat1d 1 s mt!'lheY one prohlel'1, nf!l"ely, tmel"ployment. near, hear! . ~ ' "· ~:l'~!'V; '''!:'. Spel'lker, T apo]of"ize for t,nv:!nr the rPsol11t:lon :In .-rHinE., ~1r. T h;we n couple nf more copies. 'r.he girJR ~vere nc>t :In the off:lce_ "t the til"e ;mel so :If Vonr Honour !'an re11cl my hanr1 writ:lnp Pc>ll ;>ncl p;oml. Tf not, T c:1n. have it type~. 7Jin

~!ay 11, 1976 Tape 2594 IB-3 The proc e<lure as hon . members know is that the Chair must not.' rule on t~h e ther :f.t :fs in orde.r for the hon. meMher to ask lea ve tha t the regula r business of the House be p(lstponed . If i t is ruled ont of order, that disposes of it. If it is r uleti :fn order, then it :fs up to the Jlouse to dedde whethe r or not the regular husiness ·p:f l.l :l.n fact be postponed . In cons:l.dedng whether it is in orde r there are a numher of factors ~-thich J :\m c:>bli~ed to consider. The urgency of the matter is, I think, beyond ~:fspute .

The factor I next have to consider is the urgency of debate and in doing that J have to bear in mind what to the best of my knowledRe is going to be the order of busin ess or r;,hat is to be r!ebate<l 11'1thin , . .:; 7311

~lay 11, 1976, Tape 2595, Page 1 -- aph MR. SPEAKER: the next few days or within the near future. It is common knowledge to all members that the F.stimates, which I presume will be called today, I can only use my judgement, the seventy-five hours will have expired, I believe, some time late today. I believe in answer to a question a fe\·1 days ago from the hon, the member for Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood), the hon. the House Leader indicated that 1~hen the l!st:bnates were through, it was his intention to call the debate on the Address in ~eply and the Budget debate.

That was part of the answer, there may have been other things as well. Therefore it appears to me I that there 1~111 be an opportunity in the near future for this tn;~.tter to be debated. Now on both of those debates, the Address in Reply and the Budget debate, almost any matter of public interest to the Province is in order and it would certainly appear, from the order of business indicated by the bon. the House Leader, that within a very few days, within a very short time those debates will be called.

That will provide the opportunity for debatP and therefore I would rule that it is not in order. ~ommittee of Supply, Mr. Speaker. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of th~ 'Nhole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Head XIV, Fisheries - Subhead 1401-01. The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. '1R. CARTER: -------- Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Yesterday when the Committee rose we were talking about the matter of yields in our fish plant operations, at which time I stated that the yields in the Newfoundland fish plants are averaging, I believe, around 34 per cent

whereas in other countries, in European countries, the yield is anyWhere from 50 per cent to 60 per cent. I would not want to leave the impression, Mr. Chairman, to the Committee that the fault lies exclusively with the people who work in these fish plants. There are a number of factors that influence the amount of yield from our raw material. ' 7312

May 11, 1976, Tape 2595, Page 2 -- apb MR. W. CARTER: I think probably one of the most dominant influences is the fact that our people, going back some years ~.men fish was very plentiful, and a very inexpensive commodity, were not encouraged to become too conc ·erned with respect to their yield. In fact, at that time, ~en fish was cheap, plentiful, I suppose they were no~ really encouraged to concern thP.mselves with respect to the percentage, or the portion of the fish that was processed for human consumption.

And the other reason, and equally important reason, is the fact that having regards for the fact that many of our fish plants, When in fact pretty well all of them are seasonal operations, certainly a large number of them, the people who work in these plants are not given a chance, really, to develop any great expertise when it comes to the filleting of fish. That in itself is quite an art. It is something that calls for considerable skill and training. Consequently, 1-!r.

Chairman, when a fish plant is only in operation 30, 35 or 40 per cent of its time, and when its ~Jorkers are only working that number of months or weeks in a year, well then I can say that it is awfully difficult to acquire any real proficiency in the matter of fish filleting. This, Mr.

Chairman, must be a matter of deep concern to all of us because today the situation is changed in that number one; we have a shortage of raw material and secondly; the price for the raw material has increased considerably to a point where now it is uneconomic to have 66, 67 or 68 per cent of the raw material used for other than human consumption. With that in mind, another factor too - MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. W. CARTER: Other than for the higher priced market. The higher priced market.

As a matter of fact, in the report that was released a day or two ago by the Miniater of Fisheries in Ottawa, it is pointed out that in the Atlantic region alone there is an estimated $25 million of fish rejected on the basis that it is unfit for human consumption. $25 million. MR. SMALL\~OOD: Meant for human consumption but rejected. ~ ~ 731J

}1ay 11, 1976, Tape 2595, Page 3 -- apb No. it is unfit. Meant for human consumption but because of deterioration of the product it is unfit for human consumption and consequently utilized for other purposes. S25 million. Certainly in Newfoundland, ~~hile the amount is not as great, it is considerable. It is one that must hP of deep concern to all of us. HR. SHALLVOOD: ------- Is there a breakdown by province? HR. 1\7. CARTER: No, I do not have a breakdown by province, Mr. Chairman.

Another thing, of course, which must be of concern to all of us, certainly it is of deep concern to the plant owners, and indeed to the fishermen themselves, is the matter of quality. I do not think that we can blame the fishermen for some of the poor quality of fish.that is landed and eventually ends up on the filleting tables of our fish plants. It is all very well for us as a government and as a people to insist on a better quality and to keep pointing out the pitfalls of the present system where, as I said earlier, $25 million worth of fish is rejected and used for other than human consumption.

But I think as a goverTIII\ent ~~e have a very serious obligation to provide the necessary wherewithal; ice making facilities and other facilities to give our fishermen a chance to produce a top quality fish. The fact that some of our fish is not up to par with respect to quality is costing the Province a lot of money, in that in ma~y cases, not under all headings but irt certain areas, fish from other countries are fetching considerably more on the American market than that which is being paid for Newfoundland produced fish. ~!R. S'"IALLWOOD: Similar, identical products? HR. W.

CARTER: Idential products hut in different packs and different sizes and different methods. But certainly that is another problem of deep concern. I am told that under certAin headings that Icelandic fish, for example, is now receiving twenty or twenty-odd cents a pound more on the American market than that being paid for fish that is caught and processed in Eastern Canada, especially in Newfoundland. TI1at is not under all headings mind you. I.e 7311

May 11, 197~, Tape 2595, Page 4 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: retail over the counter? "ffi.. W. CARTER: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. W. CARTER: At the point of import. This is not No, at the point of import. Right! Twenty cents a pound? In some headings. In what they call the five and ten pound packs. They are fetching as high as twenty­ odd cents per pound more than fish that is caught here. I am not blaming the fishermen. I do not think it is fair - MR. SMALLWOOD: It is incredible! Twenty cents a pound? MR. W. CARTER: I hope the Committee would not get me wrong, Mr. Chairman. That does not apply to all fish. MR.

NOLAN: That is not straight across the board. MR. W. CARTER: That is not straight across the board, but under certain headings. Special type fish. Special packages. MR. SMALLWOOD: Such as? MR. W. CARTER: The ones they call the five and ten pound. MR. SMALLWOOD: No not weight but - PREMIER MOORES: All the large fish that is packed, special cure and special size. HR. W. CARTER: Right yes. Under certain headings. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not get that. What did the Premier say? MR. W. GARTER: Special cure, fish put up in special packs of special and different size. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Well then in that case, if the minister will allow me, in that case it is not a greater price by twenty cents a pound because of a superior quality in the one and inferior in the other, but a speciality pack and speciality size and so on. Not necessarily better quality. MR. W. CARTER: Not necessarily, Mr. Chairman. The difference cannot be attributed solely to the quality aspect of it1 " 7315

~- ·-}i.· rAT'T"'T>_· _ _ !•\ll" C<' rtninl•· T 1·•nn1r' Rurrr>st thllt qn~li.ty clc-es pJ11.y so!"e pnrt in thnt ~:fff~rePtin]. _!'~1_!-~T'V_:__Jt is like butterball turkey and utility. rn-1 YeR •. Tif"l,t.

But· I 11.1" nnt hJ f1m1nr the fi shcTJ'Ilen, I thjnk tltnt there is nn er1 ucation~J .ioh renn:l rpc1 ,1nr' nRs:l st11nce ,.;ust be prov:l rle<' our fi sheT."T"en to enahJ e tl·e"" to J,mrl n T'ror'ur:t th>1t t·dll end up rettinp. :Into the f:lsh pl11nt in /l-one 'lttnlitv cnnr'ition 11.ncl then p:oinp; to the Vllrinu l'larkets :In thF> l'it'• t}tllt 1n 1'1:fnc1, vr. rludrl'lll .n, it was only last •·•f>rl< th;~t T ;mnn1mcer' n p:ll ot pr,..r,raiT'I!le 1·•hi ch ,.•ill tal<e pll'ce :In ~rl"li r<~J 1 !'1 llrnC'h, ~t.

"nry 1 s il<1y '~here ~Ye nrc ;o1nr. to endenvour to intrN 1nce net· tcC"hno.1nrv, net·' :lcle<~s, net,r concepts in the hancH:Inr. of f i Rh. "R • NOLAN : !:"....:.. "· r/ll'TT\1' : T ltC'Heve it :1>" i.n ~t. "nry 1 R-The rapes. l:". ·. _",:'. \LI.1 '(1~ T •,·nu]cl not hold that n:>:1inst the rl"'C' .e. :_~. "Al'T fT' : T r1o not apo ] op:ize for tl-tat hec;.nsc this Re1ect:lon, T rir:ht nrlr1 , w•o; nnt 1"1trle hy the ''inister of l":lsheries but l'lcH1e hy a _in .1nt fecler;.J-provi. nd;~J sPJection co111I":ftt.ee. ' 'lw hnve the i r in s tntcti.ons. ,.,.. P \flPT ~ ": ~~o, no. Nn, no, no.

Thllt :Is not the ~cay ve operate <n thf' "r]':1rt,.,ent nf "1 sheri PS . 1'e]l an)"•ay 1t :!s nerrer to the m'fniRter ;Jnn the 11'1nic- ter •.dlJ vi !O H it "requentJy.

Tt , .• ,~ <1 very cle'Jl'ocratic way :!n which that settJement FilS sP]crter' 'mel T nl"' nn:!tl' proucl to 1rno•·7 th11t it happens to he in "'Y ric1inr, the r{clin<' nf ~t. 1'1lry 1 s-'.':'he r11pes. '<~" NEAP'>': /l.nd 1•711at wi] 1 happen there an<' what w11 1 happen .i.n n:w nnJ J s;! l'T' . ·.r . \/'PT EP: ne tltflt as it TTLAY - T v7111 ans,ver your question - T thin! . it is 11 very , verY il"port"lnt, an extreme]y important expe't'i11'ent.

Tt is our intent i.on to :lnvolvP ,] J of the fish in~ boats in the conmmnHy ni' A''"':! rnl 1 ~ Tle11cr.. nncl therP are a nul'lher of boat" there n~' aJJ !d zes "' 731!1

~·ay 11, 1976 Tape 2596 IB-2 ~!T'. w. rt-r.TEr-: ;mel all descriptions ~nd types and what have you, boats that fish under all conditions, r11J nets, co~ trap, lonplines, you name it, it is our intention to utiJ :lze all of the boats in th:!.s experiment and our 1t:I.T1' is to, first of all, develop new technology which w:!.J.l enable us to outlaw the use of prongs or pitchforks in the handling of fish. Now that might not appear to be a world shattering idea, a revolutionary idea. It ha.s been tried bE"fore without success.

When you realize that 1t f:!.sh from the til'1e 1.t leaves the net until it lands up on the filleting table has been pitchforked around s:!.x or seven times leaving in that f:l.sh prohabl y fourteen or sfxteen holes, I think it is not difficult for the cn~ittee to appreciate just how :Important it is that that method of handl:lng fish be outlawed as quickly as possible. ~!P. NEA'r.Y: Hhat is go:fnp; to take place? 1m. H. CAT'Tl'l': 0ne second now and I will explain.

The fact that f:! sh i.s handJ eel that ~~ay conttibutes to the reduced yield because when that fish r.oes to the fHletin~ line the filleters have to cut out these pronf. hoJes because they are damaged and to some extent - not to any great extent - hut maybe we are talking two or three per cent, the y1elc1 is affe.cte~ by the way in which the fish is mangled or prongecl or thro'm around by the use of these prongs. ?W.

S"fiLLHOOn: Surely most of the pronging is done in the head not the bocly. ~'P . '· • CAPTET' : Pell I would like to think so hut I lllT1 sure that anybody "''ho h>ts ,,,:f tnessed people who are ti ref.! and having been out to SE">'~ all day and they "'ant to pet home to their families and get cleaned tt)' and Tl'aybe :Involved :In some other activity, that I do not believe they ~re too seJective ancl really you cannot blame them. I hel:feve the minister is right. ~'~'. SYALLlvnon: ~'P.

H. r.ARTEP: You cannot really bl~e them for not being too select:!.ve when it comes to where the fish is pronged. aspE'ct of it. That is one Tt is our intention 1~orking along with the fishermen in that col'11!1unity and "d.th the help of government federal officials and our own L. 7317

"av1l,l'l7fi Tape 259fi TB-3 l'nfdneers to clevelop a JTI,ethod whereby fish '"ill be landed without the use of pitchforks. :Je <d.J.l he install-lnr. on board the hortts some systel" of c"nveyor be1 t or some 1'\ethod whereby the f:lsh '''~. lJ not have to he pitc-hfor~:ecl hy the oJ cl trad:lt:lonal pronr. '·'ouJ d they not be l:!l·.ely to prong :It onto the conveyor? 1 •vill exvll\in that. l'l'. n. 1"/IT'Tf.T": "lC", no . 'fr. r:h:~:ITT'lan, is th:i.s.

Pc have (levelopecl. a tyfle nf a rinr, net ;m<l -If von cnn visn1>Jize the olcl-fash:loned brewis net - I all' sure the older memhc.>rs knm-r '''hilt 11 brewis net :f.s. In the Newfoundland outports they Noul(l put their hlrnt<'~cl-: i n a knJ.tted bag and r-ather the head of thnt h.1r, tor;ether' .1ncl then pnt it in the pot and ho:l] 1t. Tt ,,r;,s cnJJed This :I!> ~.rhat ~re are m::lnp. only on a !11uch, l"ttch larger scllle.

Thes.- nt>ts v:!Jl be :Installed in the holds of the boat. 'T'he fif'h vdl 1 he taken out of the net and pnt into the holrlf' of the Tt ,,,Hl then be :l.ced hP.cause on boarrl that boat •·•e vd l1 have 1 ce that :! s hEdnr proviclen a.t the cal'lJ!1nn1.ty stare up there. ' le ,inst f:lnishec' nm·' in!'tco .1linJ> an ice l'lakinp 111ar.h:l.ne that vill produce ten tons of ice per clay ~·h:lch i!" (]uite ade(]uate to taJ:e care of the neer's of the people ur there, the f:l sheTJT~en. "'hAt fj_sh ~~:l1.1 tl,en be broup:ht in to the <,;rharf where it wi.ll h<- unloaded by a wench which w:!Jl he placed on the vharf.

The net «•111 l·e ~ Athereil up, t-1 ec1 up ancl then the t·•ench 1-•i.J 1 take the fish frol"l the l,ottom of tlw hm•t :In th:ls net, lift :It 011t wl1ere it ~rjJl be put In :m -lc-ec1 contniner Pl1lr.h ,,dJl he on the ~,h,.rf. Tn Ctther Hnrcls the fish hl'.ve cCt!l1e out of tl 1e tvater jnto tT,at net anc1 sta y in the net until the net 1 s iced. Ice ,,; 11 he proviclec1. 0ur ~d.,., ill to ensure that fish ":11 1 nnt be <•rithCtut ic-E' frol'l the timE' it ]e,.yes the .vater unt:!l i t enc1s Uf nn the f1Jletinr table in the processinr pJI'.nt. That is our ob_1ective.

Tt Hill then be ll'nded in an -lcpcl contl'iner ,,,!-Jich , •• j] 1 be nn thE' ,,,h,.rf r •··hich He ~ave hail to :~.,.,rort , ,·rhi.ch contajn!" ;~ bout 2,0[11) pounrls "nc1 then tal:en to thf' fish T'Jant ••!\ere it •..-Ill be pro!l'pt]v processed. ., 731S

"av 11, 1976 ape 2596 JR-4 ''T' . :<lf.N'Y: It l'l<ls to he truc:keo then. ''" ' ' r 11 r P: r: Tn thi !> cAse there is a fil l etinr plant in fo.<lmiraJ 's Rf>l'!cl'> . Tt iF l)e inr n c-r:otP.<I J-oy Newfouncllnnd nu:fc k rreeze.

In cases o.-'1-,pr" j t h;os !'Ot t<l he traJ'ISf'OYtetl, in Cll"e" ~here t"Pre iS :0 r lit Fr,r "!xmnr " " !< o{ten hP pens, •1he the f:l sh hal< to be trAnsported fro <lne cnrrornunir. t(l ;onnt her for p-cocessing, i t •··il l he tr:o.nsporte<'l :fn t hese 1.-. r~ c 1c<'<' c<'nt:t i r.e r s , ~>ellletl, hoistecl <m bo11r.'l of Iii ruck, taken int o t he p11'nU: , un1Norer 1 and put on the :fllet i nr line for processin<> .

Sn Rr n<' til"<' !"iJ l t 1:1:= f 1 ~> h he 1·1J t out icP. <~nd th<~t is very , ver: ii'T\rortant. ~ese containe-cs after they have rrovecl themselves can hp l""<'IP. here in t he T'rovince? The y ,.,.jJ 1. h e and I unclerstAArl there is a study alre:oclv \mceTTJIIY nn•· to investigate the feas;i.bil t:"" of manufa ctu-c in~ these conta;lncrs in the Prov:lnce . That ~ould be a sizeable inclust-c :!n itself rc>cause I emvisape the c1ay when all fish wi 1 11ave to be tran portecl in t hat k'ntl of a container . !R. STRACHAN: Will that be a plastic type container? T -•111 he a plastic type conta i ner, yes.

HouJcl the ministe-c permit a question . e s, r.o ahea<' . t 1~ 8S wonclerinr if you are to:lng to aH that trouble o l-t<1n<l inr the F~,:;h from the "''<lter ri<>ht throur.-h to the processin8 coverPd in 'I c:<> ;o..ntl so on Hh<>ther you l·'ere ~o .i nr to follo~' thP Icelandic prnctice of hleeclin g the fish immedi.ately it is tal ·en from the Hater ecau s e t at seems to be one reason ·hy you can in crea ~>e the yielc1 by at least ten to f:!fteen per cent. Ye!<, P-11 f:l sh l anded at AclF!iral' s Beach as of no~' w:lll h" b l ed . /1 l "is h l·::l ] be led .

We will have :Inspectors on the ~1ha rf, on t he ,.·7h;-r e:tc:l inspec:t~n r. fish ~1hen :! cOTf'eS a!lhore. !-le will n"d ~"''lc:tl l ~· hm•e our i nspectors go out to !lea in the bo:ots an keep " <:1 os ~ l' ye on the prnc:enure fo1lovetl by the ishermen :In the boats. T Mlic1 ··e ;i Jl h:we lns!'ectors on the wh rf heac' constantly. s every fjsh ·s l~ndec1 they will be inspectetl h insrectors . .. 731n

TR-'i ,.., 1"1\ll"T"C': '·!e>ulcl the "'i.""~ter permit ;~ <!llest1on? .~'~'· ". ("J\MT-'": \'c!'l. /l.t •.·h;tt rni.nt will the fish he l•lecl, 1ust :>s it cnmcs l>:lprt. ! prPsttl'lc ~·hen 'lt c:r11res fro'll' the t·l:\ter thl!)' Ts the "'in:lster awnre of the fact tl1:>t this whole i"r:o c-f !-leer'~,.. .. the fjs~ as they come out e>f the 11ater <'ririn:~tetl ,.,th the , .-. ~ c t!:l ,.hnel !"nnr'ot> c>f the ~o11thern $hc>re ~·ho PJ"Act:! eel' it hfT"~<;c1 r f,..r yNH~< :>ncl t 11:ot it ~1as pn1cticed to <' lil"i.tetl eytent in t he f1~hint ''rfl e 1-P. 1 s r.ene roul' ennllP.h te> lc t me i ntr wle f'n l,f~, 1 s ' '<' :>".'lT<' nf the pr~>ct f ce oE ":lsh1nr cnm:fnr in, hcinf hroup.ht in rrol" t he fil>l•fl'lh f.Tounds l:fve i.ll the boat. the boat he inS' so con"tntctcA t'•'l t n J PTf'P portion c>f :ft is ~>ctunl 1y, thnt the vntcr or rr.e oeenn C'c>Mes up int<' the he>at thro•t;>h the hntto!l' :mrl .... ith a nrr "r ""I"Cthfn:- tc> h•cr the fish f rn:u esc-;~pinr :md the f'i!=-1- :>re .,.. • •·•. r~rTP.": T h""" h~nrc' nf trnt, ' 'r. ~"hili T'l!':J.n. t :lM not sure t""t t-'C'ult' ..,,.. tno effective ~·!Jell von a re t'ea l 1np with ls>r!'e qiii'TltiUe~; of ff"~• cs~c1a11v ,, .7 J ~ t) ,..

"ay 11, I 'l71i Tnpe 2597 IB-1 ''T' TT r.A T>TT>P : Fhen you are <'leal inr vi th f:l sh that are mayhe caught on a trawl or 11 rill net. ~·1'. S"ALLl.·Jnnn: ~'1'. '·'. r.APTET': Trnp. Tran fish, the possibilities are there. That aspect of 1 t J h11ve coverer, talk in~ about qual:! ty, methods to improve quality. 'r'hen of cnur.o;e t-riR P:fll he a three year, hopefully a three year prngrmnJTie. The tecl1r>nJop;y that is developed in Aclwiral 1 s Beach w:lll tllrn lw U!'etl in other communiti.es ann I ;gm hopinp, that aR ~'e provide me:J.ns, vnvs an<'1 menns for fishermen to 11nl nail nnd to hancHe their f1 Rh 1d thnut the use of pi,tchforks, I am hop in[': that maybe even by

an act of thi.s 1 erislature that "'e ~-rill have to outlaw the use of pitchforks on hnard of f:!Rhin~ boats and maybe even go so far as to outline the use of pronr;s :In our f:l sh pJ ants. '•7oulc1 the m:l.n:l ster perm:! t a question? In th:ls experiment at Admiral's Beach presumably the minister is talking about fresh fish and so forth hut ~'ill there be any attel'lpt at implementing smokers or canneries or anything of that nature :In the Admiral's ~each area :In connect-ton v"ith this experiment? l·Je h;gve no iJilillediate plans, J'r.

Ch:Jir1'1an. ('ertainly n11r l>ir c.nncern r:lp;ht now is not :l.n the matter to which we can clivers:lfy the proruction of this fish but cert11.inlv first and foremost tn tHvi f'e w•ys a1;1cl J"e:>nR to proiluce what will be the world 1 s best fiRh, a top quality A-one qualitv fish. I th:!nl-- we can do :ft. I 1•ave ennurl, f;.:lth in our Newfoundland fishermen, in our plant workers, to sRy Hith cnnfidence that He are going to succeed in our effort to produce R top ouRl:fty fish, one that will compete with that prorluced by Rny othec country in the world. There is no reason Rt a]J - VP.

NEArY: ~'n mnre cocl blocks. Not necessarily. There is no reason at a] 1 why He cannot Clo thRt when you realize that - "T' • S";I.T .L '·1001' : Would not that fish v.>hich wonld he so superior to " lot of other fish, HOtlld not be sal ted and put in the poorer !Tlarkets, j t would bE> frozen, processecl for the hip:h priced markets. ,, 7 3 21

'"' '·1. rA~"Tl'l?: ''T' f-TT.'Jir.ITA~l: Tare 2597 l:!l-2 "irht. "1r+t. t!onJ ri the ,..,jn-l.st~r permit I' que!'<tion. If yon are r,oin? tCl tJ,1s rrnch expensf.' - H :Is p.:oinr to cost l"C'Ire th:ls method of hand] ing the fish- 5. ~ ti-e !TI:Inister say:ln?" that this f:lsh ~·111 be marketed sep:l'r~t<"~v fro"' the rest of tre f:!!'h? P.eci\1\Se if H is iust p.<t!'seri rlm., the S:'lT"!<' fil1ct:lng J ine 1\nc1 ll\nri .s up in the same ldnc1. of coil block ~>s "n11 the re.-t of the f-1.-h, tl1en of course o'hviouslv :rnn ~·onJn land in the h<'le.

T111t then• !l1nst he some sep:trate 'IT'P.thori of 11"1\rket:inr, this Hnri o~' fif'h in nrrlcr to r<'t th;-t h1rher pr:icP. for th:>t hi~her nnl\1-ltv. Ts tl··is .<~lsn heinp; tAken into cons:fclerat1on? ·~. ~~·~J.T , POf'~: l'eep itR ir1ent:fty sep11rate. T 'lAVe thouy.ht, l'r. r:hai.rrn11n, of that. He thour.ht "'"'yhe of rievisfng or. ries:lp:n:lnp a special label.

That will mrre th10.n 1 ikely fo1 ]o,.. in t~1e seconc 1 pltetse of our expe.riwent. '~<'or eY.ample the "'"ount of fisl• thnt ''"~ :~re ~o-lnp- to process thiR vear :In b..c1w:iral 's rc>ach l·d11 '>e rnnyhe hetw•en 1 'IT'1Jlion and 5 1"1fl Hnn pCluncs. I 'fJnve t h our.l,t "'nvhp <'nc1 T h :ove h11d people invest1 rate the f'OSsfhil i ty, of 1'1<lvhe gettinr tl1.1t fish 1ntn so1'1e of the, mavhe the hot£>1 clla:lnr: in tl·e "t<"tE':", rn1'1e of the f1"'r tRke-out thin<?:" t•here CJU:O.lity js all i"'portimt.

T must confess th.<tt is nClt possi.hle at th:ls t"~m.e, at this pnrti ru) .~r jllnC"tiCln nf the experi'll'ent. ~11t T .,.., l1npinr that once '•'E' - l!p <~rc roinr to Pl'h11d7.e :It <1:" T"uch <t:" ,,,.. poss1hly can. 1\p, "'"'nttPr nl' fnct T h:we co!l11'1:1ssfoned a 1oc:...:l public relat:ions f:l= ~.J. nonnell lls"C1<"1ntes, a nal"1e that ts wel~-kno~~ to hon. memhers C1ppo!"ite hec:'1•1se T trjnk hP h;-s rione considerahle ,.mrk for their party. MR. NEARY: For the old Libe.ral Party. YeP. "r.

"lonneJl w:lll hE" :"tuc1y:lnp; ways anri means to prnpcrlv pnh1ic:J;o;e this experiment arid to !'1Rt·e sure that the dght peopJ e in the ri~ht p]C'CPR l'nmv ,,•h.llt we are ~oinp;. ~lfde presentations nnri hrochurcs, film clip., ;md Hhat h<~ve yon. ~at :Is our a:l!"1 fn that ~ m • <;"J1Ll.l·'001' : reorrnphj("a)lv? That puhl :I.e:! ty wC'u]d be a:ll'le~ at r•hat market, t••here 732~

)<ay 11, 197fi '~'ape 2597 IB-3 We would probably use that information in conjunction H1tr other ngencies that are available, MaybE' in the Aroeric;m market. Of course the first thing is to determine what the market is tCI be for this extra fancy qual:l .ty. Well I think, J'r.

Chairman, the market is already esta!llished in that other countries - and I mentioned that at the outsE>t of my re1'1<'1rks - other countries, Iceland, Norway, they are c-~>ter1nr, to th<'lt IT!arket, a m~rket that demands r.ood ctualitv, top quality f1~:h from their Rnppl:lers and I a111 convi.ncecl that ,,,e can break into that market and do it.

Another - and I <'1m gettinp. back to the question asked by my co11 ear.n<', l!IV hon. fr1 encl fr01'1 l'agle l'iver ("-'r. ~trachan) - it is obvious "r . rhafrman, that this sort of th:lnr, tdll expand, tbe "ord will get out that ~re a-r.e t2k:lnp; these precl' .utions, that we are endeavouring to process fish under very sanitary condi.tions, under the best of conc!it:lons and that our fish i!'l being handlec'. under extremely sanitary conMtions as well.

That word 'IO'ill spreac! and I thi.nk that in tiroe - :1 t :f.s not !':Cling to happen this year - but I think in t:lme it is going to reflect in the al'10unt tve wnl p:et for our fish. 1-r.. m':\J,LT.TOOn: Would not the minister agree that if he does not identify that fish, g:lve it a separate and special identity, then all the propar,;~ncla in favour of it TVould he ineffective tmless it's iclentity FRS l"ac!e sE>parate and recognizable?Because ot11en-Tise custol'lers would he ta!.-in~ the other, the rel"aincler of the fi,.h t.rhich vfl] still be hy far the rreater p~rt of it and say, well they do not see any (':I fference or any :lr.-provement.

It has got to have :l.ts own ,;pecial hrand or nante so that other fish will not be mfsta .ken for it. That is a good point, ''r. Cha:frman. ~·'e are ou:l te a1-rare of that, the neecl f'or identifying that fish anrl it will . be. I · ~~nnot be sure :It will ~e done this year but I can assure you that hefore the experiment ends - ~'T'. S:P.'.AJ,L'·100D : can ic'ent :1 fy it • ~rp. W. CAPTEI': The min:l.ster must first get the quaHty before he ~-le must get the quality first. He must be able to 7323

··~v 11, 1'17(, >'P. ". r.J\ P.Tf'" : rot):rd .n that nhjective of prorludnp an A-one qua] :lty fish <~nd then "t.!e l"nst he nhle to ensure an ace<1ttate suprl~·· T bel:leve tpat starting off at .o\c'!niral'fl Be11ch thifl year, next year extendin ·r. it to other co1111"tm.:lt:!Ps, J believe, I am convinced then that the quantit:les will l·p there to 1:1<1~<-e it a very :>.ttractive propos~ tion to our exporteTs nne' to the people in t..,e States •·•ho buy C'ttr proc'uct. l'ouJc' the 111in:lster pern:lt a nuest:lon?

T 1mclerstanc' the procechtre you arc t11lldnr Rhnut and arree 'd th a r.riocl r1e."'J of :1 t hut T am wondering whether yon have evey- thour.ht of l"ari<:E'tin~ the fish fre,;h Tather than p<~ss:l.np it through fnrther extre!'1E'l v :lntere,;ter! :In fl ~·:lnr: out of this Prnv:lnce fresh fi J Jet provic'lec' the fresh fi}Jet ,ms of the hir,hest qual:lty, th'-!t is .... f1ite, b1er1, ont of r:fgor mortis and :leer!

Fillet. 'l'here were some cont<~i .nPr!l rlef'i g-nec' by . ~:I r ranm'a for the:lr fJ iphts because they hail noth~n~: to 11;111] hi'!C'.k rrn1:1 l'e•?found) anc' and ~:;~s therefore interestecl in r,ivjnr, a f.!li rJ v 1"''' So I a111 1.1onderinr: l•hether thiR ~·as C'.ons:lderpr nr could l,e C'onsiclerer' 21" 11 posfljbtJity rnther than pass:lne everyth:f.np r'm·1T'l throurh tl1e fro2:en cha:!n. •'f'. ~r. r ... '. T'TF.~: Yes, we have thought of that, l'r. rh;~iT.1'1<~n • . l'e Rt r 11 11re stuc'yinr: the possihi lity of doing that.

T r1o not thin!' thnt mocle of rli!'pos:fn" of C'lur f:!sh proi.lnct,; •Jill enable "" tn take ('. ;~re of <1JJ nf the f:l Fl-, l'P have hut certain],. it is SCll'lethi.nr that ••e nhonlr'l be anti Fill l,e piving very F-erious consider;~.tinn to. ''r, r.h:lirrn'-!n, I have toucbec'l on our cles:!.re and our plans tCl honefuJJy ill'nTClVe the rruaJ:Ity of f:fsh t"at is lanr!ed throt!p.h the Another arPa, e~uaJly important, that l·.•e nre cnnsicler:fnr, uncler the same experiment is the m11tter of y:leJc1. Yesteri!;~. v T mentioned the f11C't and ap;ain tClc'l1y, the fact th11.t HE' nrP 7 3 ,, '. c.. 11

}'ay 11, 197F Tape 2598 IR-1 1'1'. II. rN'TE": m11yhe he:ln)! short-chanpec1 as it t\'er.e by virtue of the fact that we 11re not rett:tnp: suff:tc:tent yield froll' the raw mater. :I 111, fro!Tl the fish th"t '•'"' clltch, thirty-four or thirty-f:l.ve per cent.

It is our intention in l\c!JT1frl'll 's Reach to work :i.n conjunction ••fth Ne~,,foundlancl 0u1ck Freeze T.:fTdtecl and ~.Tith the Fisherf.es Coller;e ~~ho have undertaken tn initi11te " training pror;ramme in Admf.ral 's Beach Hith fit>h filleters - these penplf' ~dll he tra:'-necl :Into the. latest technique of fj]] et:lng fish 11ncl ~'fll he prn,riclefl with the latest tools, the required tools 11ncl neceRs11ry sl·Hls and mPthocls which will train them to pet the. des:'-red level of y:!e](l fro'" the r;n~ material. 'lncP we have achieved that aim in Aclmiral 's Beach, that of pettinr; hopefully " fifty per cent· y:lel<'l, then "'e will transfer that kno•rJedr;e 11nd that tecl-Jno]opy to other fish plants anrl hopefully :It ,,r:f 11 spre11<'1 to the dep;ree that all of the fish plants will be avail~ng of the services of the Fisheries r.oJ]ege and others with a view to 1ncrens1ng their y:le]cl to that ~,rhich ve hope to achieve :In the Aflmiral 's RP~ch exper1lT1ent.

That, vr. rhairman., pretty ~-relJ sums up the Anrniral's lle,c1, project. Pl'. Tll:CF:-"M·1: finy ilnonys dm·'!l there? "'1'. F. r.fil''I'F:P: Yes there 11.re 11. lot of Dooc'ys there and ' I 111ight add that soT"e of them are taldnp; part :In the experi1'1Bnt. Fr. r'onirman, then• are a nuMber of th:Jngs I could t11lk on today hut :In fairness to the other members I wouJd not ~7ant to monopoli?.e <7ha t"ver t]me i R 1 e-ft. But there are a fe~,, more thinr;s J '·'nuld 1 ike to hnve ~ fC'~·' ~·'orcls on before I take my seat. nne is the Miltter of g-ear suhsirlv.

Pe :!]1 rea]:lze- I am sure ll'Y predecessC'Ir, the present l"inister of '':lnes Rnd J:nerry recognized th:l.s fact as well as I do prolo;~l>]y IT'ore Rn, hut the present )!ear subsfr1y progr11.mMe :In the r1C'nl1rtT"ent if' anytl1inr; hnt adequate ;ond very, very :l.nequitable in Fith that in ll':l.nd I l'ppointe<'l a cor>!'li.ttee of the rlepartm.ent, 11.n internal cOTI1!'dttee who ~'orkinp; along with the var1ous fish 17ear suppJy housPs ann fishermen have submitted to me a report :. 7325

"'ape 25')1\ El-2 .. ,, r~"'TT'": so .lutiom: t-n th11t prol-]~,... the T'rov:lncc·, 15,'lf'lf1 of the!", outlin~nr; my v:lei•'S on the SllhRii!y, out1:!n:!nr: soT"e of t'!'<P ont:lons that are open, sol"e of the ;:~ lt"'rn"tiveR thnt have. 1-eron surrestPi! to TI'P "Y this comnd.ttee and asked them for Tl1e r,ea-r subs:! ~- Y ~~:1 J 1 affect very, very 'T'uch our T m" of the opin1 on. that :In c;ases where <-'P.

P.re poinp to such an iMn:oct or pn!'lsfhl~ impact on the fiRher1!1Pn thel"selves, T havP e111barked upon " pol1c" of C'.OTI'p]ete consultat:fon "dth th<? fish~rmen. ~" , TI'<TttPr "f fa('t since T ''ecame minister T h~tvE' s~nt nut nn less than f('lur Jetters to Oshf"rmen snrrestin~ their M'vi.ce on certP:ln rroprllrnrres, "" llTf' no1~ tn the procesf' of rrepar.inr: a l"nnthly nP.F sJetter ,,•-11 1 kcE'p t-~e"" ni!v:!sf"r of chanp,E's in ler;:f .sJ at :I on cle:"~Jing ul't'1 f1.sheries, T'C" ii!ea!'", ne•· techno]o~y t'•at is he1nr. clE'velopec' 1n other countries, ch:m~es 1ri the fe~eraJ statuteR 1'\!'l it ll.ppl :le!' to fishpr'f.es and in happenin~ :In tht>i,. :fnrlur-try 1'\ncl how they Clll'' ':-Pst take "<1vantnre of S <'T'P nf the pr.or:rmr.r••es thnt '·•'C are initillt:lnr. ll'hat roe!' the M:fn1ster I"C:IT1 hv the , •• or.tJ '?:enr'?

It f:f F:hi.nf" p:C;!T ~JOUJd inclnrle aJ1 v:fntJs r>f net«, ropes ~o, not cn~in~~. (';'ltchfnP:, pen:r (If 11J1 neRC'Tipti"ns rr.ettv '-'eJ1. T lJ:>Ve SE'VE'rl'\l itlea!'l on that. J ,10 not ,.,ant 1'\t this t:l"'e to announce ~~hnt •·'E' ~ · :111 prphl'h1 y l-P initint:fnr hecmtse I h?ve t" nllturally 73 ?" .... ,J

~'"Y 11, 1976 Tape 2598 IB-3 _J<r>, 1·1. CAT!TP.T': rl:!scusB the matter ~r:fth ~~'Y cah:l.net colleagueR and get their concurrence. nut certainly it is our intention to maybe ahoU.sh the present gear system aJtor,ether and replace :It with what I think will be a much more ~<·orkabJ e, n. l'I11Ch more practical solution to the problem. The idea that J have in mind without going into :my detail fs to provide means whereby the suhstcly c"n be pa:l.d direct to the fishermen. As :It now stands the <.ubs:!dy :l.s paid to the gear supplier.

I ~Tant to :Introduce 11 system ~Thereby the fishermen themselves will be given the subsidy :In order to p:!ve them that l'IUCh more independence and enable them to go out and rather than be almost forced to buy their gear from a gear supplier and he at his mercy ~··hen it comes to price and terms and vhat have you, my 11im is to ?et the money into the pockets of our fishermen to enable him then to go out and buy h:!s gear on a competitive bas:l .s. ~"'. S''ALJ.T·100D: ~.,., . '~. C.A"TJ'.": ,,., S"AtLPCVlD: ~ 'J'. !' CAT'T:r.:r: Or to form ' a co-op. Or to form a co-op. A buying co-op. The possiM .lities, Mr.

Chairman, are unlimited. T hel f eve th:>t 1,y :l.n it :1 at:lnJ? that kind of a propramme that the gear c1m he T>Urchaser'! at a much reduced price than that which :!s now he~ne charp.ed our fis 11ennen. Hnn. ll'el"hers "rill recall that .1ust recently, about two or three ·veekR '!go, the government announced a policy with respect to the "nhR:f c'y nn small boats. '·'e e~ll know of course that boats over thirty­ f:f.ve feet in lenr.;th, decked in boats, would qualify for a federal suhR:!rly of thirty-five per cent of the cost of the boat itself.

Roats under thirty-five feet ~.•ere suhject to a prov:lncial bounty of I bel:!.eve :It waR ten dollar!' " foot for a boat up to t,,>enty-five feet and twelve Fifty per fof't for a boat in excess of t'•enty-five feet but not '"'ceec:lnp: th:! rty-five fe<'t. P.ecause nt thirty-f:!.ve feet then the ff'deral bounty came in play. Our new pro~ramme now is to pay a thirty- five per cent hounty on all f:f.sh:!.ng boat!' bnilt or hou~ht or purchased 1 7327

T~pe 259e • --_ _:_...:(!.;;.. ~.;.• "_1:::.~'_"_:_: - r:ll:l·f'r, hy rfshl'Tl"f'n t<> hr employer! in the fil'lhinP. :lntlustry of thirty - five f<'P t tl" n r:\n i ·Mttm Clf t~>t>..nty feet . ~n that I all' t ·ol c' is n VC'T" i&pnrt~nt c!>:m~e :in our pol icy ber.nt•se t 1lr.re :tre a "'""her of place!' "'"ere- H 1~ st.:f11 possjbl .e to C\am a h3lf c!ecent livi.n!'; fro111 n sio-..,1.1. hoot. T ' II"'"' r 'nces ~n my rir!in J! , ::t. T\rS.le'!',~t. ~·,..ry's, C:t . ~h ot.ts for exlll!1p)e wberP. you hnve n very prosperous fir.h i n? coMr.tmitv. '11 l"f t ht> F:tshe T!!'en in !"t.

Shott!': operate in J-npts t'\nt :tr e unrter tl-i rt.y-f\v<' fPet. ' lm • J contenil thi\t a Jot ot o•Jr fishlng }.Ntt :o:l<:J[>pers, Jon)'­ liner otmcrs, are hanl:rupt or if not they are cert~tinl)' horc'erinr nn ' • :ml-. ntrtr.~· ancl nn Fortnnntely in lllany ca s cl'i t he poor people c1r. not knew it • 1'1,ey hnve hecn forcecl in manv case.s in !<n<ttl'l thnt a re m• tc~· tno ::;c-ph1M i <":! te<l for thf'j r nr.ec!s , m11ch ~C'o large, much too expensive t <" opcrntP.. .,.,,, reaFnn heinr. that tn ll'.any cases the pener.l'sity !l'ayhe of the fe<'er11l and pr<'V"fnc1al hotmt1es 111ade i t easit>r fl"r a fisl>eT1'18n initinlly to 1-ecnl"e 1t~v<'lvecl jn a longl.iner, a thirty-eight foot lon~r1 1ner th:>n t'1•11t jt clitl for hill' to hecol\'le involved jn ll'aybt> ? t h ; n y- fnur f,ot t :r!'r-s ,l·j .ff.

Trt> in'i tinl cost to a f:l sheTl'l.•m ~n "'"'"~' c a~:es wc-u1<1 he 1esl" tlvln the rurchi'SP or the builc!jnr, of <' hif.I"Cir, J :orr.l'r , rnnre. sophisticated, mor e expensive l.onr.Urer type bN•t t h11n .,h.~t :It •·"uld he ;n n I'T"PJler hnat which t,n mMy cnses ~·ould ht> qui te nclC<JI!IltE' 732 ) .... •· ~·

~'ay 11, 1976 Tllpe 2599 IB-1 l'T'. H. CA'PTT'P.: hav1nr, reg~>.r~ for the area and the distance of the fishing grounds frntn the 1~>.nd. This neH programme we hope Tv:UJ have the effect of elimin~>.t:lnr. that inequ:!ty, that '\•ery ser:l.ous inequity th~:~. t obviously has ex:lstecl. MC'ther ne•• prop:raii!I!le that "e have introducecl is the matter of leasing of lonp:J:Iners to a select type fisherman." And I say a select f1sherm~>.n hecanse our a:lm is to get these boats into the hancls of our r.oorl sincere :Interested fishermen, experienced ff.sher111en.

I • miJ!:ht inform the comm1.ttee · that · that programme has really caught on. r.re have hacl, T t.roul Cl s;~y, in exc:ss of 100 enquiries from people around the Province Pho are anx:lous to go fishing but because of lack of tmr~jnr, cap:ltaJ, l2ck of the necessary financial resources, are unable to p:et :into the inclustry but given a chance will be able to make a very ~~orthT•l,:!le contribution to the fishing industry and to the l'rov:ince and of course provii!e emploYlllent for themselves and several others. 'T'hese peop] e must be given a chance to p:o fishing. ('.\PT.

HINS01': Pould the bon. winister pert~~it a quest~on? '"'. P. ('i\JlTEP: Yes. CftP'!'. HINSOl': C;m the tnin:! ster say hm~ many of those boat to h<'lve been repossesse~ and how many now have been leasecl,or rented to, or ~·hntever arranr;ement they have made wfth the fisher~~~en? Are any of those boats on lease ri!"ht now? "r. rh:-t:lrrum, th:f_s again is a pilot project. We are not ant:lc:lpatinr. this year to get into the leasing of any large number of boats. It :Is a new idea. We want to see hot.• it works. I th:l.nk :It ,.,i1J •-mrk. nur a:lm th:'-s year is to lea~e eight Jon~':l:l.ners.

These J nngl:lners wi J1 be boats trat ~'ill be corn:fnr, back to the loan hoarc1 fro,. tl:e:l r present OT·mers for a number of reasons. r'ayhe the o•·IT\er lost interest :l.n fishing. Vaybe the o~mer cl:led, left the industry <>nd unfortun<>tely :l.n some cases the boats have h11d to be repossessed 732n

• ·a~· 1.1, 1"7f• Jll - ? '·f!c,nsC' C'" ,,,,,,,ti~fnetory <lrranrcments Fith tl'E' present C'T-JPerf' t·•ith r<>"'P"Ct to l""'etjn~ their 1'hl:!."l'lt1Cll1S to the loar- b0arcl a!lcl to the any excuae 1 to rcpo~"e"" <! boAt that is re:!nr. usecl by " fi"l-Jerl"':m. t c;m llSf'nre the co11'!"li ttee that he fore any fi shem:~n loses a ,.,o,t throuril reposse"'s:l .on resul tJnr fro~1 maybe n!'t mak:lnr; J-..is J1<')'1"1ents on t11'1e or ip:nor:lnr hi" rc>,pons:!hil.itv to ti--e Joan hnarcl, Pe ~ive that Fishcnnnn ev0ry possil•lf' d11mce to redeem 1dl'1self :mc1 to r,et h11ct< em An evC',n i nr fnotinr. t•>i th thr loan bo:ucl nncl hopeful Jy to ~tay in the Your prC'Clecessor s;d cl thry •!ere r<'i nr. to sock it tl' them.

"l'!•at :Is the rollc~• C'f our ~overnl!lent. it '·'" !' the pn 1 ~ cy of '"'Y prrclecessnr. mw nnc'e-r.,tnnc1:1ng Pt I'll 1 o" the fir-:ldnl?' inrlustrv could possib1 y .~clont •' r"ff"fprent r•oJir. y fr"'!" the l'ne T have .inst exrhdned. nur n i T" is tn n~:d: V£'f'T, 1 •opefn]Jv,~Pt into a 'l".nr.l• hro:otlor lcR.Fdnr, prop:ranl'c lwc;UI~(' tocln\ • tl' purchase ::tnd to operate a lonrJ.1ner, tO rropr.rJ y Pnnip t1t.1 t loop:] 1ner, to enahlE' the o~men; to Ml!l-c!' evc>n a c1ecent ] ~vinr fro'" tl•(' :Industry, :It :Is :m eypens:lve proposition.

Tt .:Is not R. bull 's ­ PV(' sl1np orerRt!on. '' ot• arc> talkinp :In teT.'1"s o~ an)"' rhere frmr $250,000 t0 $150,"~10, ~ ne''' f:lfty-f~nr foot Jon!l;J:Iner tofla.y W!'ttld cost i.n excess of $7.0n,nnn, 'l'l•Pn you have the soph1f't:lcated eouip!l'ent thR.t is n<'CP,~r~rv .~nc' the VI'Tious c:~tch:lnr eqn"p"'ent that is necesRI'!TV 11nd :It is " f.1irJ~, expe11sive propC"sitton. f'otlseonentl y - Pnu1rl tre mini.,ter perr-:l .t 11 onPstion, ."neT T i!o T'Ot MP"n tc 11'ltr.rrupt the minister in any Hny - assuming J-..e ~n ,l T , .,;~ntecl tn huy 11 ll'npliner tororrow, •·•hl't won~d we he rem1:lrecl tn f.llt tn ll!'<l for Hl•at .1f:P.OC:fes, ancl hot·7 much t"'U]d p:overnl!leot, P'fJ.ether ~t il'< ff',lerpl or pro,•inda1 ., put in? '"r. f:!la:l m.an, if the hon. melT'her ,,rere ,._ fi.,heT'I"'an R. n~

l'ay 11, 1'176 -Tape 2599 IB-3 1"'. H. r.Al'TRT': if he l··antec to huy a new long] iner he •·•oul d require a ten per cent rlowtl pnyment to st:nt off 1dth.

He would qualify for a federal hnnnty of thirty-fh•e per cent and also a prov:lnd.al bounty of, I th:l.nk, :f t iS tl•'O hunflre.,l and SOmething nollars pP..r ton, plus the fact that he ,,roul d requ:!.re then Rome pretty sophisticate(! equipment - if he is p:oinp. to r;:lve J->imself h!llf a chance to ml'lke a l:fv:!ng from that in<lustry-p]u!': thE' necessary nets and gear that :1 s requ:l .red p] us the inqur;mce •·•hi ch :! s a pretty hefty bill. lloh' can the ordinary guy affor<l :It? The ordinary guy cannot afford it.

The ordinary perRon to<l~y cannot - l"lrder, please: T "ould Jilre to remind the hen. min:fster his f~rty-five winutes has Plapsed. "T'. '·1. f'Al''l'F.T': T. "(.'111': under the impression that the ll'in:!ster, }fr. C'hail'!"an, T·•ho is :lntroc1uc1np. his estimates couJd cont:lnne • .. ~"1'. 'WIIU,'·Tnnn: Co on.

T ,.,11) not delay.- >'r. rha:f.rman, 1 am sure it :1 R ag:reecl that he goes '•'ould the min:l.ster say th~tt Tih. erea~; now the '''"Y " "''m ~etf' 11 lonpliner with which to fish :1 s that he buys :! t or hnil ds it as hi.s own exnense or TJ:!th financial he.lp from the government of the r>rnvince 11nd the Covern!T'ent of Canada? Under the new scheme he> ClneR nnt huy :It at aJl, he merely rents it. He does not have to make " ilo•·m r11ymcnt and the rental '1-.•ill include the insura.nce and n:d.ntenance, w'ul d i.t? "r. rhajrman, there llrf> many weaknesses :In that l..,<t.~;:fn~ pror:r""'"'c.

T ""' the f:!.rst to anl"ljt :It and there are a number nf r.h:mres that T ]ntenc' teo recoT'!!T'end thl't rd.J.J be. 111ade before the ~or example my aim is to le~Re hoats 0n .1n arranr;ernent wl-crchy "'e ,,,oul~ as payment he prepart>il to rccept " sh•re in the hoat, the bo<1t share. •'T'. ~"ALtH"nn: nf the f:!sh. 7331 .·

•·:t~· II, l'~7f. Tnr~ 25'l'l "ill \ "" r,A.f'1',~T" • ~o T c1o not th-lnl' it :Is fi\ir to expect th11t 11n rler the present arrangel!'ent it •'oe,; not •·•orl< tlln t Wl'l)'. ·. 'P no"' have the f1sh~nr- ho;>t,; vnluetl or 11ppra:!sen, we w:llJ h:1se the Yf>l1T flPT1nt1 nr r.prtn~nlv the TC'1Ndn:fnr, life Sp11n C"l' tl•:>t hn11t.

Tt ... nrk<; 011t ,.·!•ere it 5.s l'luch chr.::tper 11nd :It :f,; l'luch e.!!s-!Pr. l':ven thourh the rr<'S<'nt """'t<'l'l is <>nyth:fnr hUt perfPct - ::tnf T intend ' '"!'efnJly to l"n~e sotne t"l•tm~ep; ,ext ~mar -but it sti11 ennhJes the fisheTll'en tn r<"t >! 1'n:1t l••it-h '"'l1<'h leFs :fn:ft:fal invest!"ent tlum th<>.t required j,; h:r no T"(':tnfl ir1el'l] but rhren the fact that it :Is lln CXf'P.Til"E\Dt :me' ri"en the fnct thnt therP :Is a lot of intere!Ot in th:is ne•1 :fc1ei\, then it is incnT"h<'nt nn "" and on I"P :ts n m:ln:tster to hrinr ;tbnnt !'<Orne very 'lut t"<'Ttninly I"C have to ret invo]VP.cl :fn providing hoats "e l•nve t<' :Involve onrr:eJve,-: in - "r.

""niTT".!!n, r w•u1c'. l:!ke to ri,;e nn a point of nrr1er. T rlo not ~ nm.• •··!·ether tl•f' !'lin:l!'ter :I!< cont:lnulnr. e>n bi!Recl on the :ORRIII'Iptinn th1t ht> h11s ninoty l'!inutes or unl-l"':ltecl t-II"e ets the ll'in-lster 1- nt '"" the Tn:ln-lster ,..,,.? or l'l:ty not 'kno~' he cloes onlv hnve fcorty-fi.1re ~dnnt~'R 11t tl•" f'ol"!"~ttee st11r,e except hy J"!?.VE', For onr part, ~ir, "'" V<'nJ c1 '1-e ,.lll :lnr.. tC'I rrant J e:ove in '•:le~· of the fact that he har1 l'.ut I .,..C'u]d not ,,,ant :It to "e 11nlimitei' t:l.me. l'rohnhly if we eouJd !'<up-rest somethinr; J:ll-e ten wlnut.,.s.

T-Te ''<'ttJcl he quit.P I•JilJ:Ing to r.:rant leave for the l'l'lnister to c:ont1nne on ten or f:lfteE'n minutes 'dth some of his co~ents thnt he mir:l •t not l'nve hl'cl ~:~n opportunity to eont:fnue on 1dth as :1 result of ''r. rha:ll'Tl'Rn,

May 11, 1976, Tape 2600, Page 1 -- apb MR. W. CARTER: I apologize to the hon. member if I may he abusing the privilege that was just extended to me, but there are so many things happening, there are so many things happening in the fishing industry. There are so many things to be done that I could, I am sure, stay on my feet for ten hours and even then I would only scratch the surface. MR. ROlffi: We only have three. MR. W.

CARTER: I would only scratch the surface on some of the programmes that we have in mind, some of the plans, some of the ideas, new concepts and also to give me a chance to express the undaunted faith th~t I have in the fishermen of our Province and the fishing industry of our country, particularly in the good fishermen of St. Mary's-The Capes. HR. NEARY: MR. l~ .CARTER: MR. F. ROWE: l·!R. \v. CARTER: And the Southwest corner of the Province. And the Southwest corner of the Province. And Old Perlican. Mr. Chairman, this year we are going to involve ourselves in new boat designs.

In our estimates you will see a vote, an amount of money voted to enable us to undertake new boat designs. We recognize, Mr. Chairman, the need for change in our boat designs. There are many criticisms of the longliners. I am hearing a lot of cirticism, especially now when many of them are being adapted to the herring fishery, to the lobster fishery and maybe to a more extensive ground fishery.

We,this year,will be having a study undertaken with a naval architect who is now in the employ of the department, who will uork in conjunction with our fishermen, fishermen's eommittees, fishing skippers, and others, fisheries geographers - is that the right word? - people who can inform us as to where the bodies of fish are, the distance they are from the shore, with a view to developing maybe an ideal fishing, multi­ purpose boat, recognizing the fact, as we must, that a boat that is designed for the Northeast Coast is not necessarily suitable for fishermen from my hon. colleague's district, the Southwest l~ 7333

~lay 11, l'l7~, Tape 2Fi00, Page 2 --- aph ~R_.. ,_E_.._ r. ART F~:_ HR. SMALUlOOD: corner of the Province. As the Cape Island boats T4ere not suct:e!'lsful fn our Newfoundland r~aters. Right: We recognize the fact that a fishing boat, for example, that is necessary or that is practical "ln ~t. ~lary's -·The Capes or l'lac~ntia Bay might not necessarily he the same type that you would use in the 1-!hite Bay North area.

J>miE _ _!I_O_I!_._~c~mERS: Hear, hear: Consequently we are now looking at the Province in three and maybe four regions, where after considerahlP. study and consultation takes place, we will he designing a boat specifically for ·that area. That I think f~ VP.ry important;. Mr. Chairman, I think that mv hon. fd.end is gctt;inJ!; impatient so I ,.rill have to hring my remarks to an end before I am asked to take my seat by Your Honour. ~ ~~· S~.AU.~ TI1e minister ~an get up again, you know. lfR. \{. CARTER: Yes. Hr.

Chairman, let me say this; that :l.t is our aim to develop the fishing industry to the best, t(l th~ utmost advnntage and benefit to people who really count, the f:l.shermen of our Province. The Department of Fisheries is a fishermen oriented, people oriented department. 'fR • .NEARY: Hear, hear: MR. W. CARTER: I am fortunate in that I have a very efficient staff. I have a number of people in the department who are totally committed, who are absolut;ely and totally committed to the development of the fishing industry and to the uplifting of our Newfoundland fishermen.

I am very proud of that fact and at this time I compliment all of them. They are a very fine group of people. I would ask my colleagues opposite, and I am not presuming to tell them or to advise them on what subject they may speak, but I Tmuld ask them if they are goinF; to dwell at len gth on this so-called gear scand~l, and I suspect they wi.ll, but may I sug~est to you, Mr. Chairman, that there are more important things. •· 73:H

May 11, 1976, Tape 2600, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: Oh yes: MR. W. CARTER: There are more important things right now to which we can address our·selves. I am more concerned with some of the more postitive things that are taking place in our fishing industry, in our department, things that are dead are sometimes inclined to smell I know, but, Mr . Chairman, I am not presuming to tell the members opposite the subject to which thev can address themselves, but I would only ask them to, if they are going to get involved in the so-called gear scandal, well then, for God's sake, you know, do not get too involved in it.

Make Your point, do not repeat yourselves because there are so many. other things, as far as I am concerned, of greater importance. What has happened has happened. The courts will decide and the police will decide the degree of guilt and those who are guilty of any misbehaviour, people guilty of misbehaviour in our department or in the industry will be punished. I am sure of that. So I do not think any amount of talk here can change that. People who are responsible for misbehaving either in the Department of Fisheries, and I do not thf.nk they have, or in the industry will be punished of that I can assure you.

So, Mr. Chairman, I again say that I have total and complete faith in the future prospects of our fishing industry. I would only ask that the members of this Rouse, my colleagues, give our people a chance. I ask that the government leaders in Ottawa give our people a chance, involve our people in more of the decision making processes. I sometimes worry and concern myself when I realize that a great many decisions that affect the fishing industry are made 1,500 miles inland in some ivory tower in Ottawa. And having spent seven years in Ottawa I have a pretty good idea of what that means. HR.

NEARY: You can share the blame. MR. W. CARTER: No I cannot share the blame because unfortunately, as the bon. members knows, people in opposition are '· 733:1

~'ay 11, 197fi, Tape 2fi00, Page l1 -- apb ~IR. W. CARTER: not given a chance to exercise too much influence on the decision making process of governments, except in this Hous~. SOHE RON. ~!EMBERS: Oh, oh! --·- --- - - ~IR. W. CARTER.: Of course, being a very democratic party and a party that appreciates the contribution that can be made by all Newfoundlanders, Newfoundlanders of good intentions, we are quite willing and quite anxious to listen to our colleagues opposite and where possible, to adopt some of their ideas.

I have strong reservations as to the . future direction of the fisheries as it applies to the Ottawa oriented, Upper Canadian oriented attitude . I have read the report my bon. colleague is displaying over there and I must say that th~re is not much new in that report. It is a conglomeration of press releases that havE' been made now from Ottawa for the past seven or eight years. MR. ROWE: Good stuff. MR._~- CARTER: Good stuff, yes. And I hope the government in Ottawa will recognize the need for early implementation of some of the ideas and programmes that are outlined in that report, ~tr.

Chairman, I certainly shall endeavour to answer any questions that are put to me by my colleagues. I welcome the chance, as I said at the outset, to expose myself and my colleagues, in that sense, to the members opposite in defending the policies of our departments and the estimates now before the Committee. smm liON. '"IE!-ffiERS: --··--- - --- Hear, hear! CAPT, WINS0R: Mr. Chairman. t.ffi. CHAire-•.AN: Before I recognize the bon. member I sh ould like to bring to the attention of all bon. members that we have distinguished visitors in the Speaker's Gallery in the person of tloctor J.O."cLean and 11rs. HcLean.

Doctor McLean is National President of the Canadian Red Cross Association and a former Dean of Dalhousie Dental School. I would like to

May 11, 1976, Tape 2600, Page 5 -- apb 'MR. CBAIRMA,N: our sincere welcome. ~OME liON. MEMBEID3: 'MR. <llAIR!Wt: assure Doet·or 'Mcl.ean and Mrs. ~cJ.ean B.ear , hear! The bon. the member for Fogo. CAfT, WINSOlt: Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the Minister of Fishedes for the way ln wh.ich he introduced his estimates. I am sure we can all understand his enthusia10111. A young man entering into the l!ortfolio of Fisheries in this country could be nothing but excited. ~;. 73 3 ~,

May 11, 1976 Tape no. 2601 Page 1 - mw Capt. Winsor. I am sure and I am sure all of us on this side feel that the hon. minister has a sincere desire to do what he can to bring about improvements in our fishing industry, and I am sure he will do all he can, as I said before, to pursue it, and bring our fishery to the place in which it should be in this Province. It is unfortunate, ~tr. Chairman, that the minister should take over the portfolio of Fisheries at this particular time.

When one realizes that the estimates of the Department of Fisheries have been cut from nearly $13 million down to nearly $6 million, Mr. Chairman, that is not too encouraging for th~ minister. And I am sure he would much rather have seen that oriRinal fiRUre or the last Year's figure of $13 million retained and a little extra. Then, Mr. Chairman, he takes over the portfolio where there is an alleged fraud of $4 million, and this is a very serious matter.

And I feel, and according to rumours, the morale among the high officials of that department is not all that good, especially since the previous minister, the now Minister of Energy made that appearance on CBC radio programme Here and Now. I think, Mr, Chairman, that the hon. minister was far from his best on that particular programme. He left the impression, Mr. Chairman, with his audience that the blame - he was sort of passing the blame for that programme to the officials of that department, and it is no wonder that the morale would be somewhat less than it should be. I am sure, !1r.

Chairman, no minister knows better than that hon. gentleman that he and he alone is responsible to this House. He is responsible to the people of this Province, and he should not leave the impression with anyone that he was not in command of tl~t programme of the Fishery Gear Replacement in 1974-1975. r1r. Chairman, it is like the master of a ship, The master or the captain is always responsible immateri~l of who iB on the bridge. He as the master is responsible for the safe navigation of that vessel, the safety of the crew and passengers if it so be a passenger ship. However, Mr.

Chairman, it is unfortunate, as I say, that the hon. Minister of Energy left that impression, and one can hear it - "'• 733S

May ll, 1976 MR. DOODY: Tape no. 2601 It was only left with you. I Page CAPT. WINSOR: l~ell, it is not left with me. It is common 2- mw knowledge around the community and in the malls and in the shopping supermarkets and wherever you go. However, Mr. Chairman, I do not intend at this particular time to belabour that point. MR. DOODY: In the malls? CAPT, WINSOR: Yes, in is in the malls. You can hear it anywhere. I do not intend to belabour that point at this particular time, because there is a heading in the estimates of Gear Replacement, and I would choose to deal with it there if we have the time. However, Mr.

Chatrman, as I say, the present Minister of Fisheries now finds himself in that position where he has this cloud hanging over that department, and I think the sooner we can get this thing cleared up the better it is going to be for him and for all concerned. Mr. Chairman, I would say that perhaps ninety-five per cent of the members of this House could stand in their place and speak for fiours on the fisheries and say very little that has not been said many,many times before. The fisheries in one form or another affects the lives of a great many Newfoundlanders.

Its influence outside of the urban area of this Province is felt in every aspect of life. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, it is the life blood of a great many communities of this Province, and without the fisheries there would be very little reason if any for their existence. Mr. Chai~n, as the time is drawing speedily to a close, and I am sure a great many members want to speak on this important subject and important estimate, I do not intend to hog the time at my disposal. However, there are a few points that I would like to deal with.

The minister yesterday spoke of the 200 mile limit, and in pursuing that matter ke came into the point where this joint fishing effort, I think, is - he was elaborating on the joint effort. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not all that excited at the moment about that joint fishing effort. If we are going to enforce the 200 mile limit then I would say, Mr. Chairman, let us enforce it to the letter for a period of from three to five years, and within that .. 7339

May 11, 1976 Tape no. 2601 Page 3 - mw Capt. Winsor. time limit let us as Newfoundlanders, let us as Canadians,and I think the han . minister should go to the federal go~ernment for special assistance in this - let us increase our capability, let us increase the capability that we have of catching much fish which would be ours, I suppose, if we enforce the 200 mile limit then the foreign vessels will not be permitted to fish within that 200 mile limit.

And this would be a breeding time for the Canadian fishery and especially the Newfoundland fishery, because, Sir, if we are going to continue allowing the foreign vessels to fish continuously, because to take the quota that we can take, then I am afraid that a 200 mile limit is not going to do all that much good. ' But if we have sort of a closed season for three to five years that wil~ give ample time to replenish the stock and after that period of time it is then we should talk joint effort, not before. Because, Mr.

Chairman, if we have the capability it does not only provide work and labour for the fish plant or the processing plants, it also provides the opportunity for our fishermen, more fishermen to get into ~heir boats, to get out there and catch that fish . Because , Mr. Ghairman, you know, in this world today of hunger in many parts, and today in the countries,in the Communist countries where there is a shortage of food-- Russia today is having very great difficulty in providing enough food for its people, and they are lacking in protein.

So, Sir, we here in Canada and especially in Newfoundland, we have a part of that protein food which the Communist countries need and they will always need it. As I was reading in Time Magazine sometime ago we have something in this nation, and something in this Province which is greater than the atomic bomb and that is a source of protein., We can do what the atomic bomb would not do by supplying the fish to the people or the countries that are now having difficulty in supplying their own needs with protein foods, So there 73i0

l'~'~Y 11, l'l7f, Tare 2602 IB-1 T woulcl r·,y, l'r. rJ,,irm:m, is the route that I woulcl follo•r if J ,,,ere in .~nthorltv. T wouJr1 hdnr :In the 200 T'1:11e Jil":lt anc1 dose it off for three tn ri"e YC'"r" to make sure that •'e h::>ve suf-Ficient stock there to c>nnhl e ns to c-<~tch <~1 1 that f:l sh ;;tnc1 l"nre thP.n we are catching nou hy " rr<'."t, rre11t number. Our catch :l.s, T th:fnk - what? - ntneteen point nine per cent of aJJ of the fish caught, a very ins:lgnif1c:an.t perccntare, lfr. Chairman, when you think of alJ of the fish that :1.1' c:mrl1t out on the Tlanks.

Then, l'r. rha:lrtM.n, while ¥7e are do:lnJ.> th:ls :It w11J give this ~rov1nce a rreater opportunity to provide more facilities for the fisl1 ,.,e catch. There :fs certalnly a great neet:' for !l'ore anti 1mprovee1 fac:llit:les. ny the t:fi"P. :ft re<~.ches three to f:l.ve years and ,,,he.n :l..t :Is nsc-.ertainer1 hN' '"uch fi.sh is out on those Ranks, the Hall'i]ton Banks ane1 the r:r11ni1 Ranks and on the rontinental Shelf, then we shoulrl be renc'ly to tl'll'e fuJl advantage of all of the f:lsh that we can catch. I cnnnot el"pht1s:f7.e th:f.l' too greatly, ''r. rh;drman.

IJe are not <':ltch-tnr cnon~!-> f:f sf.. Tint :! f we c1o not ret the 200 T"ile ] i111H, of c-nnrs!', thcrf' •d 1 1 he no fi F<l1 to catch.

Fogo cl:lstr:lct 1 despite t11!' hc:k of the 20(1 '"n~ J:lm:lt, hac'l one of itR beRt inshore fisher:!es f0r T"~ny yean;. • It ~as heen that 1-ray fo:r the J ast) at least~ two o:r three year~, since T hi'IVC been a member for that rUstr:lct. ~0 :!t is e11fficnlr to RF<cert~in just what effect the 20f1 mile lim:f.t is hnv:lnr: on I'O""e arells of the Province. '!oF, ~ 1 r. rhnirman, at th.:ls mo"lent along the ~rortheast r.ollst there ar.e thousanrls of tons of herrin?, and no one f:fshing. ~''hY are Y:my r1oJlan• can he made in the herr:lng fishery nut if you re fr.om ran e'er !Ia:' aJ l the ~'''Y nrounr1 to ne,.Jevv:JJle or l'acl?e-r-'s Quay there is not one pJ1>ce, nne C<l11'T"unitv, one arf':~ t.Jhere the f:Jshe=en can t1>Jre ar1vantar.e of th<'!t f:l sh, to fi .,,, nnr1 Mah'! nr help Jl'ake a 1 ivinr, for the:! r fm,.n :les for lack of fae:IJ Hies.

"r. ,..,,.,1rl!'t1n, th:ls is one area T woul.t'! reonest the Hinister of T'i"'heries tn pay more attention to so that those fisheTT'ten 73ftt

•• ,,,. 11. 1')71'. Tnpc 2602 rn-2 Ct\l"f. uni"l'" ; in th<'l'<' nr<':-F r<~n r.et C'lltt an<' f~!'h tlte ~:l!'h that is alreary tl•ere. The fjsl• is there noP and :It t·r:IJJ coN! ;ond :'<'. Tt 1•",.; ~>Pen c.or.inr and ~ofrr for thr past four or five yr.~r" :md tl•r f:lshe""en ;orp ,;tandin!" otl the rocks recause there are no .,.,h,.rfs, no ,.lu?-'s, no nPthi:np Pnd tl1e people just cannot f:lsh that pnrt~r.tt1.11r 5'!'cdes of Ush.

Tt "'1r.ht hP jnteresthf to knQ•·!, ••r. l'"h•i!"T'>'n, tl•)lt last ypw.r, T·hpJiev<", the fC'cler;ol f'I'IVE'T'TII"ent r•Jt fish C'n the foor aiel ]_j,.t for <lintrilHitfon to the hungry nations <'VPr,;e;o,; ancl herr:lnr and mackerel HC"rj!' inclw'e<' In th~t ] fst. The fe<1eral r.:nvernment ann01mcei' one •·•ec-h thnt ft •·•aF r,oinp to hny tla• next week ~4 rd] J :I on ••orth of cannecl l-crr~nr. :mrl 1"'.11cl:e;rel. .\n<l thP.y d:lr! huy it bnt they clirl not buy nne can o<: herrin!' "r m;ockerel fro!" ~lewfoundlanr'. ~~ere riel thev ~et it? "fl•ey rot ~t i'roJI! T~c-v;o ~cot~,. P.l'.T. ~nr' even nuehec.

So, r•r. r.h:Jirm:~n, l•c-rr f s r>ne 11TNI NhC"rr '"'f' cert;~in] v l(lst :- pre.nt sonrce of fncoi"C :'l.J l nr:rdn hecau~>e of tltc ]nek (lf f,.dlities. "n, "'r. MJrdT!'1:m, if HP. are to t~kc a<lvantar.e ~.n<l if the ~ini,tc>r - nrr' T ""' sl!rP. he iF !>inccrc - if the minister ~s !'incere in ~e>fn~ S(ll"0tl•htr for (lt•r :lnshnrP. fishery

part leu] ~rly, tLen tlds :1 s the nrP:1 in d1ich he h;os !'nt to concentr:.te ~C1r a few years. provide tl1r proper fncilities hP.canse, ~fr, ~1ithout the rroper fac1Ht1es all ,,,.., J he l rst.

No•,• t·ie have an area of COI'TJI!tm:l ty star;es. '!'here :1 :o: or T tldnl .-. there lJ:ts nn :'l[':reement a yeAr or t••'O aro where the Prov:lnce would 1'hether thnt is so or not I .:tm not too sure. llC'"Pver, it is the fe,leral r:overntnent Pho haR heen spenclfrg the "'OnP.'y on the COT"l"Jmity st:ar.es ancl the provincial r.oveTilr.'E'nt are putt1n!> in ve'rv little if' anv t" llflr'T'a~e and fmprove thr coJI!JI!un:!ty stares. Here lc: l'lnotlter :1re., vhrre •·•f' l"llRt h-'\ve !"ore f:'lcflities.

Vt'. rhafTI'Ian, :If "" "re to t:~ke 111Jvont;o~C' of the fi.sh t~at we have close to our she>res, P.;tRf1y <~<"CP.RFihle an<l thousands of tons of it - I al!1 th:l.nk:fnr, n(ll-7 of the herrinr. fiFhcry - then •·•e l'!t!St provi.de tl>c-se facil :!ties. Jt is :fnterest:tn~ to nc-te, ~'r. f'l>;dY'I"an, the IUI'Ount of l'lOney .:.. 73L!

Hny 11, 1'176 Tape 2602 Ill-3 rAPT • WINSOR: tT,nt the T'rcwince h11~ rl'questerl from DREE to develop our fisheries in col'lpllr:ll'lnn ~·-•ith the provinces of New Brtms .. ick, Nova Scotia and Quebec.

T asked the T,on. 1':1.n:lster of Fisheries one day a couple of ~Jeeks af,'o, "How much did the provincial goverDII@Dt request from DREE for develo,.in• of our fishE'ries." I th1nk the minister stated that it was $3.<l million. 1·/ell nm,r, !':lr, $3.9 m:lllion :f.s a very s!T1all amount ~1hen :It compares to P.P..T. rer,uesting $15 !T1:1Jl:lon and Nova Scotia $48 million an~ a vast ma1or:lty of that ~·as for to :l.l'!prove the fishinp: industry in those provinces.

Tt is a]IT1ost impossible to concede that the Province of Ne•N'foundland wh:lch is a f:l.sh:l.ng province by 11. lonp: shot, it i.s a f:lsh:lnr. province l'!uch more so than I lll1'. sure Nova Scotia is or P.E.I., that we would only reQuest from l'PF.E $3.9 million when l:!ttle P.E.I. would request anti pet $15 mill ion and the province of Nova Scotia, $48 m:Dlion. So ~Then the minister replies perhaps he could elaborate on that re<1uest, ~Jhether that is correct or not. I do not think the m:ln:l.ster hearr'f what T sa:l.rl.

He was engaged in another conversation ,,r:Jth the previous ~'in:l.ster of F':l.sberies, the nm• Minister of Energy. Ho•.revPr ~.·hat I d:l d say a.nd I ~'•:J.ll repe11t it, thl".t the amount nf money reqneAted by Ne~•foundland frol'! nP.EF. •!'7as $3.9 million that is in compar:fl'lon to $15 m:llHon from P.E.I. an~ $48 m:lll:lon froM Nova Scoti11. 1AT'. 1-1. CARTER: But they nid not get it. CAPT. 1HNSOR: Hell they p:ot a greater portion than. Ne•Jfoun~J and p:nt. MP. '1. CAT'TF.R: Hhere did you get your information from?

CAPT • WINSOP : c\ell the statistics she~· ani! inform11tion that T. have is tha.t the Province of Nova Scotia got $h.O 1'111J1.on out of the ':l.R mil] ,ton anr1 P.E.I got close to the SIS miJJ.ion. Ne•,•founrUand is ~ettinr; $1.'-l l'l"!l]ion ~·e hope an<:l I do not th:lnk that agreement hns 1--een si!.'llecl PS yet. It is certa:l.nly not our. fa.uJ t. CAPT. H!NSOR: ~Jell it is irranaterial wl'>ose fault it is. l':lr1 ~1e not only re<1uest the ~3.9 million? How l'!uch rid we request? If ~~e

. r"fM'. ~7U!f-()l': rot ~:\.'1 1"'111icon, 1•:'1<' PE' TP.queste .. $2'l l"lil]jon ' ·!(). !"ir"ht ~'r'Vf' ~nttel' $:'11 T'li1HnT1. rtl'hf'ries. r:"o~ l<nm>!s He nee~ :It :In th J s 1'rov1nce to r1evel Ofl our f>c-, •·r. ,.,,;d,..~n, f.ere ?re SO!"e cof the :~. re;u; r-~hP.rP I think ve nt>cil sor>r !"reat Ctlnrentrtot:lon to prc,i<'e our fishermen .'>ith 1t1nre cllp:thiHty. T.ct 1!S hdnr, in the 2nfl l!'iJP. l~l" :lt. I think :It {s rr.cn:-nizerl by P.,~ noN that we 11.re FOinp; to re-t the 200 l"ile h•1 1977. 'l"herP are 2 75 fc-re:lp:n VP~<Rds con thP. r,..~nil Banks and· :l.n the area of the '!la111ilton '~'hey FE're there l at.e Jam•u·y. ,; 73·H

May 11, 1976 Tape no. 2603 Page l - mw Capt. Winsor. Let us concentrate on developing the fishing grounds within that 200 mile limit for the purpose of Newfoundlanders or for the purpose of Canadians. When we find that we cannot fish and cannot catch the quota then, of course, we should discuss the other problem of joint effort. The minister said yesterday that it was almost impossible to provide the capability. During the war years, Mr. Chairman, the United States and Canada latterly, they were launching an average of a ship a day of various tonnage, up to 10,000 and 15,000 tons.

So it is not imposs"ible to provide a capability if we concentrate wholly and solely on it. I do not think we should encourage other people to catch our fish off our shores after years and years of fighting, scratching and arguing to try and get the 200 mile limit. Whee once we get it by golly I think we should hold it, and have a closed season there until we can increase it, ~til we replenish the stock and then it is time enough to encourage other foreign countries to come in here and process their fish and send it away. But, Mr. Chairman, in its 480 years of history the fishery has always been up and down.

It has had its ups and downs all through our history. And the problems of being grappled with by government and this government has not up to this present time done anything · worth-while in developing our fishery. Fishermen have and are complaining th