Manitoba Hansard — 29 June 1983 (Sitting 98, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-98

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 98 - 2:00 p.m., WE DNESDAY, 29 JUNE, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-S econd Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER , Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOUR LAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNS TON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER , Q.C., G.'.N.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conr ad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT , Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW , Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Ross mere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NOP INO NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesda y, 29 June, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTE RIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to table my department's preliminary Financial Report for the 19 82-83 fiscal year and make a brief statement on that report.

I am pleased to advise the House that the report shows an improvement in our deficit position of $60.4 million, compared to the forecast at the end of the third quarter. The deficit projected in the third qu arter report was $495.5 million. The revised, "actual" deficit figure is $435.1 million, as I said, $60.4 million lower. Two factors contributed about eq ually to the improveme nt: First, revenues were $32.7 million higher than forecast; and second, expenditures were $27.8 million lower than projected.

Overall, expenditures were $4.9 million or less than one-fifth of 1 percent above the Estimates approved by the Legislature last year, while actual revenues for the 19 82-83 fiscal year were $86.7 million or 3.5 percent lower than the original Budget forecast. Our final expend iture total was almost exactly "on target" and in line with the Estimates approved by the House, despite some added costs partly due to the recession as well as extra expenditures for statutory public debt interest charges.

In fact, if the $36 million in added statutory costs are deducted, the remaining expend itures for the year, the day-to-day costs of operating the government, were $3 1. 2 million or 1. 2 percent below the estimates for the same items. That helps de mon strate the effectiveness of the expenditure control measures we introduced during the year, and those measures have been continued into the current fiscal year. Mr. Speaker, this report makes it clear that the increase in our deficit during the past year was caused almost entirely by the national recession.

The recession reduced our revenue growth substantially, though not by as much as appeared likely six months ago. In addition to the report, I will also table copies of a press release on the year-end statement, as well as a chart comparing percentage changes in the deficit in recent years, which I think will be of interest to members. Finally, I will table a Return under

Section 66 of The Legislative Assembly Act. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Lea de r of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, we are happy to have this report on the year-end activities of the government, and any good news, no matter how my honourable friends may wish to dress it up and fudge the figures, any news at all is good news when you consider that the deficit that they were forecasting of $495 million in the third quarter report was something like $15 0 million more than what they forecasted when they brought in their Budget. They were bringing in a Budget of about $350 million, Mr.

Speaker, showing a deficit of $350 million. It ends up at something like $435 million, and they say, aren't we good managers? Well, hardly, but as I say, any news, coming from this government of incompetence, is good news. The fact that their deficit is $60 million lower than $495 million is good news. The fact is that it's still 100 million more than they forecasted when they brought down their Estimates of Expenditure and their Budget a year ago. Mr.

Speaker, I am quite interested to hear the Minister of Finance say, on Page 3, this helps demonstrate the effectiveness of the expenditure control measures we introduced during the year. Mr. Speaker, this government introduced expenditure increases of 16 .5 percent last year, one of the biggest increases of any government across Canada, and then it stands up in the House and says - Aren't we good fellows; we came in at 16.5 percent when all other governments in Canada were coming in under 10 percent - and they expect to be lauded for that kind of mismanagement.

Hardly, by us or by the people of Manitoba, especially since they increased the taxation on the people of Manitoba by $13 0 million on that terrible perverse tax on employment, the employment tax. They increased the tax by $1 30 million; this year they're putting up the sales tax another point. They have surcharges on senior incomes in Manitoba. They've raised fees for park usage and so on across the country to raise their revenues to cover off their unwarranted expend itures. Then they stand up, like the Minister of Finance today, and expect to be congratulated for bad management.

Who do they think they're trying to kid, Mr. Speaker? They certainly don't kid us, and they're not going to be kidding the taxpayers of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, he says in his statement here on Page 3 - (Interjection) - Do we hear one of those piping plovers from the back bench of the NOP, Mr. Speaker? A piping plover is a famous bird in Manitoba; it's coming to be extinct. Is my honourable friend trying to imitate it, or is just the whole government acting that way? Now, Mr.

Speaker, this report, he said, makes it clear that the increase in our deficit during the past year was caused almost entirely by the national recession. The recession reduced our revenue growth substantially, though not by as much as appeared likely six months ago. Well, it's all right to talk about six months ago, but let's talk about 12 months ago when they brought in this forlorn budget that they are now trying to claim some benefit for. The chart, Mr. Speaker, then a "fudge" 4034

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 chart, if I may use that term, shows the Manitoba Deficit Percentage Growth - 1980-8 1, 1981- 82, 1982-83, 1983- 84 - and it tries to show that the NOP, the annual percentage growth since 1979-80, that the NOP in the last two years have brought in smaller deficits. That's the impression they try to leave. Mr. Speaker, this government has brought in, in it's first year, a deficit, it announces today, of about $435 million, which was more than the combined deficits of the four years that we were in office.

This year it is budgeting for a deficit of $659 million, and it tries to say that the budget deficit this year, that the increase is only going to be 33.1 percent and aren't they good fellows. Mr. Spe aker , they are a bungling bunch of incompetents who are trying to draw out of the fever swamps of socialism, which guide them in all of their fiscal meanderings, trying to paint a picture of untruth about the financial status of the Province of Manitoba, which just won't wash.

When these people start giving us some honesty in the projection of their figures; when they start telling the truth about their expenditure increases - 19 .5 percent expenditure increase this year - when every other government in Canada, Mr. Speaker, is keeping under 10 percent. Who are they trying to kid about being good fiscal managers? They're lucky as all get out that their overinflated deficit of $495 million is going down to $435 million. Are they entitled to good marks for good management? Never in a month of Sundays, Mr. Speaker, never. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I remind those members of the public in the gallery that expressions of opinion, either pro or con, are not permitted in this Chamber. Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . Notices of Motion . . Introduction of Bills . MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I gather that the bill will not be called. Before we proceed with Oral Questions, I would like to move two Motions of Condolence through which the honourable members pay tribute to two former legislators who served in this House.

The first former member of the Legislature whose memory we wish to honour today is Albert H. Corbett, better known as Bert Corbett, who served as a Progressive Conservative member of this Chamber for Swan River from June 16, 19 58, until the House was dissolved for the December 16, 19 62, election which he did not contest. What many members do not know is that his service to the Province of Manitoba goes back a considerable time prior to that.

It goes back to 1906, when as a young engineering student, he joined the Highways Branch of the Department of Public Works, remained there until 19 53, just three-and-a-half years short of half a century.

Just to give an indication of the scope of his work and the areas of his responsibility, I would like to read from an item in the Winnipeg Free Press of April 21, 19 83. 4035 "As District Engineer with the Department of Public Works, Highways Branch, he was responsible for that part of the province from Pine River north to Flin Flon, west to the Saskatchewan borde� east to Lake Winnipegosis, and north to encompass the entire northern part of the province.

He will be particularly remembered for the Mafeking- The Pas highway and The Pas-Flin Flon highway, which were officially opened in 19 39 and 19 51 respectively. "From the First World War on, he was responsible for drainage and road construction in the growing farm settlements north of Dauphin to Swan River. "The first major highway between Dauphin and Swan River, beginning his long career in road construction, was completed in 1924." That was his first period of service to the people of the province, one which established him as a pioneer road builder and one of a small early band of devoted civil servants.

His second period commenced on J•.me 16, 19 58, when he was first elected to the Legislative Assembly, then re-elected on May 14, 19 59, and during his four years in the Legislature, he gave evidence of the same sincere and dedicated service, on behalf of his constituents and of :V..:mitobans, that he provided as a civil servant. His life was a long and rich one, beginning December 29, 18 87; ending April 14, 19 83, more than 95 years later. In his lifetime he was an ardent Mason and a recipient of the 60 year Jewel.

He was Past President of the Swan River Rotary Club; Past President of the Swan River Curling Club and the Golf Club and was an active participant, a promoter and organizer in many athletic fields. Mr. Speaker, in all of his activities, as a professional engineer, as a Member of the Legislative Assembly, as a sportsman, and as a participant in community affairs, he was a man of principle, dedicated to serving his fellow man. His own life was rich and we are the poorer for his passing.

We do pc..y tribute to him today and it's my honour to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, that this House convey to the family of the late Albert H. (Bert) Corbett, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is indeed a privilege for me to second this motion, motion of condolence, in memory of Mr. Bert Corbett who served this Assembly as MLA for the period 19 58-1 962. Mr. Corbert had retired from a very distinguished life, as the Premier has indicated, prior to becoming involved in politics. I have to say that I was acquainted with Mr. Corbett's son, Stewart, many years before I became acquainted with Bert himself. Stewart followed his father's footsteps in that he too became an engineer

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 and was employed with the Department of Highways for many years in The Pas and is currently the resident engineer at The Pas, Manitoba. I would just mention, too, that Bert has a family of two sons and one daughter, and just recently I had the honour of presenting a birthday present to Bert's brother who lives in Benito and he is over 90 years of age. He's in somewhat failing health but still able to get around and still lives in his own home in Benito. Of course, as was mentioned, Bert celebrated his 95th birthday last December.

He had been a resident of the Swan Valley Personal Care Home for a number of years, and although he lived to a ripe age he has been in failing health for the last three or four years. When I first became acquainted with Bert Corbett, it was in the late '60s and he had already completed a distinguished career in private life with the Province of Manitoba and then subsequently had served four years as MLA. When I first met him, and subsequent occasions to meet him, it was usually on the golf course.

As was indicated by the Premier, he was an avid sportsman, of all kinds of sports, but in later years he took to golfing and he golfed I think every day of his life after he was retired. He had the distinction of getting a hole-in-one at the age of 82 on the eighth hole of the Swan River Golf Course. So for all those golfing enthusiasts that never give up in getting a hole-in-one, I'm sure that Bert would want me to convey that message. Mr. Corbett continued an active life right up until he was about 90 years of age when his eyesight gave out and his health started to deteriorate somewhat.

But he did contribute a lot to the Swan River Valley area and he did contribute a lot to Northern Manitoba, particularly from Dauphin north. As was indicated, he knew every drainage ditch and every provincial road from Dauphin north, having been involved in the construction of what is known today as Provincial Trunk Highway No. 10. As I understand it, one of his first major road work contracts with the Department of Highways, of course, was the completion of No. 10 Highway from Dauphin to Swan River back in 19 24.

Although that doesn't seem that many years ago to some of us now, he did serve almost a half-a-century with the province, a very distinguished career. I mentioned that he contributed greatly to the Swan Valley area in other ways, being a member of the Rotary Club and served that club as president for one year. He also served as president of the Swan River Curling Club, and also the Swan River Golf Club. Many of the older people, particularly, in the Swan Valley area today will speak very highly of Bert's contribution to his work and to his community.

Of course, he served in this Legislature, although for a short time. He chose not to seek re-election in the general election of 19 62. So Bert is fondly remembered by many people from Dauphin to Flon Flon, regardless of political stripe and, of course, he's dearly remembered by the people in the Swan Valley area. It is an honour for me, as I said earlier, to second this Motion of Condolence to a former member of this Legislature, Mr. Bert Corbett. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speak er, I would like to join briefly in the tribute paid by the First Minister and my colleague, the Member for Swan River, to my old friend, Bert Corbett. He and I were elected to this Chamber in the same year, 19 58, although he had a slight edge on me in terms of years; some would say not so slight. He was, undoubted ly, one of nature's gentlemen. He was not a partisan in the finer sense of that word or in the harsher sense of that word. He sat approximately in the seat of the Member for River East when he was in the Chamber.

The government in those days had one or two members sitting on this side of the Chamber. He enjoyed the camaraderie of the House not only with the members on his own side, but with the small and doughty band of CCF people who were there at that time. They hadn't gone through the euphemistic change of their name. He, of course, enjoyed as well the friendships with the members of Liberal Party, because he after all had served as a civil servant under a good number of Premiers of Manitoba, going back to 19 06. The number would be rather considerable.

He knew, I believe, each of the Premiers and, certainly, each of the Ministers of Highways under whom he had served from the time of Sir Redmond P. Roblin's government. He was regarded by all of them, I am sure, as the kind of an outstanding civil servant that he was. I think it's fitting to note that it was not until after he had retired from a distinguished career in the Civil Service that he decided to seek elective office as a member of this Assembly and was successful on his first attempt. I first met Mr. Corbett, Mr. Speaker, over 30 years ago when my wife and I had occasion to go to Swan River.

He was then the District Engineer, as the First Minister has said and the Member for Swan River has said, for that district. He had agreed to give me and my then fiancee a free ride up to Flin Flon on the highway that he had just finished building.

I echo the sentiments of the Member for Swan River when he said that Bert Corbett knew every rock and turn and tree on every road that he had built because, while we were not in any rush to get to our destination, he took us on forages in the course of that trip to show us his favourite wild strawberry patch and wild rasberry patch, and to explain why a certain curve took place in a road, and he would stop the car and show us the kind of impediment that the equipment was running into and that's why that curve is in the road, and I just want you to know that we are trying to save a little money for the people of Manitoba.

At that time, I was a civil servant in the Government of Manitoba as a law student. At that time, I can tell you that one of the great jobs of the Civil Service of Manitoba was to try to save money for the taxpayers of Manitoba, and Bert Corbett was a great exemplary in that field.

So he was not only a good member of this Legislature who represented his district that he loved so dearly; represented it extremely well in the four years that he was in the House; but he was a genuine all around gentleman of Manitoba whose passing is mourned not only in the community of Swan River, but indeed throughout the wider parts of our province where his name is well known and amongst whom are people whose lives ·he touched in the generous way that was truly the Bert Corbett way. 4036

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: Would members please rise for a moment of silence to show their support for the motion. (One minute of silence was observed) The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the second motion I wish to present to the Chamber today recalls the memory of another servant of this House, John Peter Tanchak, who served as a Liberal Progressive member of this Chamb er, representing the Constituency of Emerson from November 14. 19 57, until the House was dissolved for the general election of June 25, 19 69. Mr.

Tanchak died on May 13, 19 83, about a week after he observed his 78th birthday. I had just commenced serving in the Legislature when Mr. Tanchak's term was over. I recall references to his interest, to his dedication and to the hard work that he displayed in the service to his constituents and to the people of Manitoba. In the Legislature, he was a strong advocate of increased farm aid to strengthen the cornerstone of our economy. He was always an active man, and this was reflected in the approach to his legislative duties.

Indeed, following his service in the Legislature, he became the first chairman of the Manitoba Turkey Marketing Board, serving in that capacity from 19 69 to 19 77, and was Chairman in 1974-75 of the Canadian Turkey Marketing Association, which gives another indication of his active and devoted service on behalf of others. Throughout his life as a teacher, as a businessman, Mr. Tanchak displayed those qualities of interest and of service that served him well during his years in the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, in Mr.

Tanchak we honour a dedicated servant of this House, of the people of our province and of our nation. It's my honour to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell, that this House convey to the family of the late John Peter Tanchak, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community public service; and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin Russell. MR. W.

McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I dare say there's but a handful of MLAs sitting in this Chamber today that had the honour and the privilege to sit in this House when the late John Tanchak was the Liberal Member for Emerson. Mr. Speaker, I first had the privilege and the honour of his acquaintance living at the St. Regis Hotel in those days where some, I dare say, well over 20 rural members, rural Liberals and Conservatives, used that as our home away from the home - the St. Regis Hotel. I guess that gang until today is known as the Regis Racing and Chowder Club.

I can recall some of the members of the Liberal benches in those days, our 4037 Minister of Health, the late Rod Clement, the late Leonard Barkman, Mr. Shoemaker, Albert Vielfaure, Mr. Tanchak and others. I think Mr. Tanchak sat on that back seat there when I first sat in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my memory on this condolence motion today takes me back to those years that I had the priviledge of sitting in this House, I believe, from 1966- 69 and listening to the wisdom and the knowledge of the Honourable Member for Emerson who took a pretty active role in the debates in the House in those days.

I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, as well, that the late John Tanchak will be remembered as one of the outstanding citizens of our time with his ethnic background and as a result have his keen interest in education and the turkey industry. Some of the debates that took place in this Chamb er, he played a very active role in and certainly served the people of Emerson very ably with his contributions over the 12 years that he served. Mr. Speaker, this tall stately Manitoban was an ardent Liberal, I guess, until his death.

He certainly, to my knowledge, gave freely of his enormous wealth of skills and talents as a member of the legislative Assembly and took a keen interest not only in the well-being of his own constituents, l\ilr. Speaker, but certainly people from all walks of life from all across this great country of ours. He was a jovial man in many ways, and certain syllables as I recall it, Mr. Speaker, in debate would cause him to whistle.

And I'm sure the members who sat here will recall some of the occasions that he was standing there in the heat of debate and this whistle would come across his lips on certain symbols that he had problems pronouncing because of his ethnic backgound. He certainly, as the Honourable First Minister said, took an extremely active role among the turkey producers of this province and, if my memory serves me correctly, he became the first Chairman of the Turkey Marketing Board in this province and then went on from. that to sit on the National Board of the Turkey Producers. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba has lost one of its outstanding citizens as of May 13, 19 83, upon the death of the late John Peter Tanchak. I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, the history records of Hansard and his work in the constituency show that he served this province and served Canada well and to the fullest. He certainly did make the province a little better than he found it. Mr. Speaker, I, on behalf of our party, would like to send our condolences and sincere sympathy in support of the motion to his wife, Doris, and to the family, and may God bless his soul. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too wish to join with the Premier and the Member for Roblin Russell in this motion of condolence to Mr. Tanchak's family. I knew John not as a member of this House, but as a farmer and a member of the poultry industry as a turkey producer. John's activity in promotion of orderly marketing and being the first Chairman of the Manitoba I

Turkey Marketing Board dedicated much of his energies and time to the promotion of, as I said, orderly marketing and of harmony within the industry. Prior to the national agreement coming in, I can recall many difficult times of negotiation with the processors and farmers in trying to achieve a better price for producers. He spent many hours of devotion there. I want to as well recall, Mr. Speaker, coming from the Interlake, John Tanckak, as well as being a member of this Assemb ly, was also a school teacher by profession.

I can recall that John taught in my home area, in the Poplarfield area, for a number of years and was very well respected in the community and has many friends in the Interlake area. I know from knowing him, by being involved as a farmer in the industry, as a kind and compassionate man and devoted his energies to the betterment of Manitoba as a whole. Certainly his period of time here can well be remembered by those traits, and I certainly want to lend my support and my sympathy to his family and in participating in this motion of condolence. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was not my intention to prolong this debate but I, too, would feel honoured and privileged in associating myself with the remarks of the mover and seconder of this motion, as well as the Minister of Agriculture. I remember John very well. In fact, 24 years ago practically to the day when I first was elected as a rooky MLA, he was my seat mate and desk mate when I was sitting in the back row on the opposition side of the House. I must say that he was very very helpful with his advice. The MLAs, the members of this House, are no different than any others.

I think that they are motivated for different reasons; there are some that are very forceful, some that are quiet. Well, John was a very unassuming person and probably he was better known as a faithful and good caucus and party member. Remember that John was not the type that would like this exchange of this name-calling across the House. That did not turn him on at all, quite the opposite. Remember also that if somebody would take him to task he would take it very very seriously and he would fret and worry for a number of days.

If he had the misfortune of having said something a little loud or not complimentary to the member of the opposition party, he also worried very much about it and took advantage of the first chance that he had to either apologize or say something particularly nice about that person because he did not like to fight with anyone. But that should not fool the members that think that he was not a strong member; he certainly wasn't afraid to speak for his principle and he did so often. He was, as somebody said - I think it was the member that seconded the motion - that he was very active in the House.

He wasn't just sitting in the back seat, he took an active

part in it. I think that he certainly did serve the people of Manitoba and especially the people of his constituency very well. We could use more people like John Tanchak today, I'm sure, and I also would like to offer my condolence to his wife Doris and other members of his family. 4038 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Would members please rise for a moment of silence to show their support for the motion. (One minute of silence was observed) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where there are 10 students of Grades 7 and 9 standing from the McAuley Junior High School. The students are under the direction of Mr. Robson and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Virden. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Inflation - decline MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

Last evening, the Prime Minister made a statement to the people of Canada in which he praised his government for the 6 and 5 program and tried to leave the impression, of course, that it was the 6 and 5 program which has been responsible in Canada for the notable reduction in our inflation rate. On the same evening, the President of the United States, Mr.

Reagan, was speaking to a press conference in Washington, and he was making a report to his nation with respect to the reduced inflation rate in that country which, of course, he was attributing to some of the economic policies which his government and indeed the Congress of the United States had been carrying out. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the First Minister of Manitoba is on record as not supporting the 6 and 5 program of Prime Minister Trudeau, indeed, we've had expenditure increases while he has been Premier of 16.5 percent, and this year 19 .5 percent, in government expenditures; in view of the fact that he is also clearly on record as not supporting what he sometimes calls as the crazy Reaganomics programs of the President of the United States, would the First Minister be good enough to tell this House and the people of Manitoba to what does he attribute the remarkable drop in inflation which has occurred in Canada seeing as how both of the policies that he has condemned are claiming that they are responsible for?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased that the Leader of the Opposition has given me an opportunity to say a few words in respect to the announcement by the Prime Minister last evening which he attempted to take credit for the fact that the inflation rate had been reduced insofar as Canada was concerned. At the same time, of course, we had the President of the Wednesday, 29 June, 1983

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 United States also attempting to take some credit in respect to certain economic indices that we witnessed in the United States of America. Mr. Speaker, there are two very clear reasons of course why there are some positive economic indices. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, I would not want to overlook the problems that are confronted in this day and age by the unemployed when we talk about positive. It certainly is not all positive. But the two positive features, indeed, that it brought about some economic recovery is first and foremost, the fact that interest rates have been lowered. Mr.

Speaker, I trust and I hope that those monetary theories that have been pursued by ultraconservatives will not again be readopted in the years that lie ahead and that we will see a continuation of lower and stable interest rates, that's No. 1. No. 2, Mr. Speaker, equally as important, is the fact that we have witnessed a stabilization insofar as the upward spiral in oil prices and energy costs. So, Mr.

Speaker , insofar as future economic recovery is concerned, future employment growth, investment growth, this is subject and conditional upon governments, whether they be of federal level, whether they be of other countries of the world, ensuring that a firm grip is maintained in respect to interest rate, tight money policy and, secondly, energy policies. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the First Minister has not given us any elucidation as to why in his opinion interest rates miraculously came down, would he agree, as he and his colleagues depart to that great socialist powwow in Regina over the weekend, that the policies traditionally advocated by the NDP and by their socialist brethren throughout the world, namely, of more spending, greater deficits, greater printing of money, that those have been proven to be totally bankrupt in terms of operating any national or indeed provincial economy, and that the lesson that is now being demonstrated to the world by the socialist government of Mr.

Mitterrand in France, which carries out by the way the same kind of mumbo-jumbo economics advocated by the First Minister and his colleagues, that kind of mumbo-jumbo economics of socialism of more spending, more deficits, more printing of money is really about as out of date as a horse and buggy and that he and his party ought to get down to some new modern thinking about how you create employment in Canada? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the speech by the Leader of the Opposition - and I interpret that as a speech and not a question - the fact is that interest rates and the reduction in interest rates is not as a result of any change in direction on the part of ultra-conservative monetarist thinkers, unfortunately, in the world; but the fact that ultra-conservative thinkers - the Leader of the Opposition appears to think that the problems that are confronting the western world are funny; I think them not to be funny, Mr.

Speaker - the ultra-conservative thinking that has indeed dominated has resulted in a situation by which we have had a damaged economy, a situation by which, in Canada, Liberal-Conservative policies pursued in Ottawa have resulted in 1. 5 million to 2 million unemployed in this country; the fact that those 1. 5 million to 2 million unemployed, plus all those other Canadians that are insecure for their jobs, are not purchasing. When consumers are not purchasing, Mr. Speaker, goods are not being bought, goods and services are not being manufactured, investors are not investing.

Wh en there is no demand for mon ey, obviously, a course in Economics 201 would advise anyone that the price of money has decreased, interest rates will come down. Mr. Speaker, what indeed is required is . A MEMBER: A dreamer. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't mind being a dreamer if it means that we can turn around some of the misguided and foolish policies that have been pursued by Liberal and Conservative Governments in Canada for the last decade. Maybe we need a few more dreamers.

Maybe we need a few more dreamers in this world, and there would be less unemployment and there would be less poverty throughout the world. I make no apology for being a dreamer, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, what is required, and I now deal with that latter part of the Leader of the Opposition's speech, is the fact that the governments cf this country, all 11 governments - 10 provincial governments plus the Federal Government - the heads of those governments ought to be meeting, and not in meeting of Finance Ministers as proposed by Mr.

Lalonde last night, but a meeting to co-ordinate and to develop a strategic policy in order to ensure that the unemployed in Canada are put back to work again. That can be done through the co-operation of the Federal Government, of the 10 Provincial Governments, of the business community and of the labour community in Canada. What it requires, Mr.

Speaker, is that we put aside some of our partisan bickering for a change and we put aside some of our jurisdictional bickering so that we develop a strategic and a co-ordinated plan, targeting the plight of the u•1e mployed in this count ry, because unemployment is enemy No. 1, let there be no doubts about that, and we are still far from successfully dealing with the plight of the unemployed in Canada. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure we would all agree with the last sentence of the First Minister's statement, that we are far from coming to grips with unemployment in Canada, and that's why I was asking him for the prescription that he has for Manitoba; given the fact that in pursuit of the kind of mumbo-jumbo economics that his party practices, over the past 18 months government expenditures have gone up about 35 percent, that the deficit is now well over $1 billion, and that the cost of living, Mr. Speaker, in Winnipeg is the highest of any city in Canada. I wonder if there's any correlation.

I wonder if there's any correlation, Mr. Speaker, between the cost of living index being in Winnipeg, as my colleague, the Member for St. Norbert has said, going against the trend; the cost of living increase going up in Winnipeg, while it's going down in the rest of Canada. 4039

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 Can the First Minister tell us what is his prescription for bringing down the cost of living increase in Winnipeg, or would he like a little advice, such as taking off the egregious employment tax and doing a little bit more saving in government in order that the taxpayers may keep more of their own money? HON. H. PAWL EY: Mr. Speak er, first, it is untrue for the Leader of the Opposition to have suggested, as he did but a few moments ago, that the City of Winnipeg ranked the highest in the country re CPI. Last week, I indicated, by way of response, that Winnipeg was midway.

If I recall correctly, there were seven major cities higher than the City of Winnipeg CPI; there were seven cities less CPI. I regret that the Leader of the Opposition does not check the accuracy of some of his statements prior to his making those statement in the Chamber. Mr. Speak er, I would like to bring to the Leader of the Opposition 's attention that insofar as retail sales are concerned, when retail sales are depressed in various parts of Canada, there will be a depression insofar as the price that's being asked for products that are being sold in the market .

We find, in fact, in other provinces, including the Province of Alberta, that there has been a stagnation pertaining to the sale of goods. In the first three months of this year, there has been an increase insofar as retail sales in the Province of Manitoba in excess of 4 percent; in the Province of Saskatchewan, an increase in retail sales of a little in excess of 3 percent; in the Province of Alberta, there has been no increase by way of increase in sales; and in the Province of British Columbia, there has been a small decrease. So, Mr.

Speaker, when there is a decrease or when there is sluggishness in regard to retail sales, that will indeed affect your CPI. But, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that we should, each and every member in this Chamber , target unemployment as problem No. 1 in this country.

Maybe if we would think back to some of the measures that were undertaken during the Thirties and during the Second World War, we would find the ways and the means and the policies and the approaches that reduced unemployment, when men and women were put back to work, when they were given the opportunity to produce goods and services, rather than having the human wreckage and the human tragedy that we're confronted with in all too many personal and other instances in Canada today. Employment Standards Branch re baby sitter HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour.

On Monday last, she advised this House that in no way could she interfere with the board hearing that was going on with respect to the ludicrous situation of babysitters being asked by the board to be paid $4 an hour by mothers and fathers in Manitoba. She gave the impression that nothing was going to be happening to cure that ridiculous and silly situation.

Yesterday, the Acting Minister of Labour, the Minister of Finance, announced to the House, I think with some full measure of agreement in the House and some common sense brought to bear on the topic, that the government was going to undo the harm that it had done by the foolish

section that it had put into The Employment Standards Act last year and was going to amend that

section to make sure that it did not include babysitters in Manitoba. My question to the Minister of Labour is: In view of her adamant statement on Monday, does she agree with the policy that was announced by the Acting Minister yesterday? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I consider that question MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I really do not believe it's according to our rules to ask one Minister whether he or she is in accord with another Minister of the Crown. Perhaps the Honourable Leader of the Opposition would wish to rephrase his question? HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, with respect, with this government, anything can happen, and I think whether it's the Member for Elmwood or whether it's the Minister changing a position of a government one day after the other, the government makes a statement through the Minister one day and takes an adamant position against doing anything; the next day they change the position. Does the Minister of Labour support the government, or is she going to leave the government? Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Labour be bringing in the amendment to The Employment Standards Act that was announced yesterday by the Acting Minister of Labour? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, to clarify the issue for the member who has obviously not read Hansard nor listened to me when I was speaking, I said that 1 would not interfere with the activities of the Labour Board; I never have and I never will. That is a body that operates and must operate independently or its independence is compromised. I did say that my department would be looking at an appropriate amendment or an appropriate definition or some other way of clarifying the issue. It is an important issue and not one that you clarify overnight.

It must be looked at carefully. I have, in fact, today papers from the department that I am reviewing that suggest ways in which we can clarify this, and I will be bringing those before my Cabinet colleagues as I said I would. There is nothing different in what I said and in what was said by the Acting Minister of Labour yesterday. Each day, obviou sly, there is progression on this issue. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that we are now getting changes of policy by progression, will the Minister of Labour lead us down this marvellous socialist road and tell us out of what fever swamp she is bringing forward the amendment to The Employment Standards Act? Will she, in fact, in this progression that she talks about of changing from black to white, 4040

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 will she in the progression actually bring forward the amendmen t that on Monday she indicated she wouldn't touch with a barge pole? Pechiney aluminum plant - Quebec MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, I took as notice some questions from the Leader of the Opposition regarding the Pechiney smelter development in the Province of Quebec. While we don't have access to any of the contractual arrangements HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I believe there was a question on another topic before the House.

The Minister was getting ready to rise in her place, and now we have the Minister of Finance interjecting on some other matter. Can we not have a little order in the proceedings? HON. V. SCHROEDER: This is foolishness. MR. SPEAKER: Indeed, there was a question asked. I will recognize a member of the Treasury Bench who rises to speak. The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That type of question doesn't deserve an answer. The Minister of Labour was absolutely correct in not rising and not intending to rise.

We have obtained some information with respect to that arrangement, however. Over three years ago, in 1980, Pechiney announced it had taken an option on 500 acres in Quebec and if a power contract was reached, it would undertake a feasibility study for an aluminum smelter having a capacity - (Interjection) - Would the Member for Morris just contain himself? - having a capacity of about 200,000 metric tonnes per year.

The power contract, signed on April 25, 19 82, was based on a rate of 16 mills per kilowatt hour guaranteed against any increase over 10 percent in any year for the first 20 years of a 25-year contract. Furthermore, the Quebec Government stated it would contribute one-third or 500 million of the estimated $1. 5 billion cost of the smelter. Then on November 17, 198 2, the Quebec Government offered Pechiney a cut power price of 8 mills for the first five years of operation. News reports yesterday indicate further power discounts and subsidies.

I should mention that this compares to the current heavy industrial energy user fee of 17 .7 m:lls in Manitoba. The Leader of the Opposition also asked for a current situation comparison between Hydro Quebec and Manitoba Hydro. Hydro Quebec today has a huge annual domestic surplus of about 2,300 megawatts of capacity, or in energy terms, 45,000 gigawatt hours. Due to market conditions and transmission capacity limitations, it cannot even export 50 percent of this surplus.

Even though due to the recession, it has cancelled or postponed plans of adding over 900 megawatts of capacity, it still feels committed to expanding capacity by over 1,200 megawatts by 1989 because of the already extensive sunken committed costs undertaken. By contrast, Manitoba Hydro's total generation is about 20,000 gigawatt hours a year. That compares to the surplus over there of 45,000 gigawatt hours. Our current domestic surplus of about 1, 300 megawatts of capacity is all exported to Canadian and American utilities at an average of 14 to 15 mills.

That is compared to the eight we're talking about over there in Quebec. Manitoba Hydro is not now committed to any additional, immediate capacity. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, as a result of its huge current and future surplus, Quebec Hydro will be supplying power to Pechiney at a tremendous subsidy compared to other industrial energy users in the Province of Quebec with no additional increases required in generating capacity. Manitoba Hydro, on the other hand, would have to cut back on its exports, averaging 14 to 15 mills, or add to its capacity more expensive power plants to supply a major industrial customer such as an aluminum smelter. Limestone generating plant HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, a question following upon the statement just made by the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance seemed to leave the implication at the end of his statement that for Manitoba to embark upon more expensive Hydro plants would not be a good thing. Mr. Speaker, he belongs to a party which got elected on the ruse that they were going to build Limestone immediately, whether they had a market for it or not. Why is he now telling the people of Manitoba that it would be wrong to build Limestone to supply power for an aluminum plant which would create thousands of jobs in Manitoba?

What kind of mumbo jumbo economics are we hearing from this Minister, Mr. Speaker? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition huffs and puffs and tries to blow the House down. I remind the House that in 1977, that member of this Legislature was in my constituency telling people that he was committed to the orderly development of Hydro. He certainly wasn't saying he wasn't going to stop development as he did after 1977. He stopped it, and if he would have continued . . . HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the Minister of Finance has just uttered a lie. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, now the Leader of the Opposition is going to . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance had just said that our government stopped Hydro - (Interjection) - Quiet! Mr. Speaker, the interjections of the Attorney-General would be appreciated in the Kremlin, but not here. The Minister said that in 19 77, our government stopped the development of Hydro. Mr. Speaker, he is aware, his First Minister is aware, and continues to wholesale the lie that their Hydro Board 4041

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 stopped Hydro development in 19 77, not our government. That is a lie, and I want it withdrawn. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield to the same point. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I don't intend to indulge in the debate which the Leader of the Opposition is engaging in with regard to Manitoba Hydro. However, I have, three or four times in the last two minutes distinctly heard, both on and off the record, the Leader of the Opposition say that the Minister of Finance is lying.

If there are any withdrawals required in this House, then the Leader of the Opposition is required to withdraw that accusation. If members have differences of opinion in debate between themselves about Hydro, about any other subject, that's the subject of debate in this House; but the accusation that's made by the Leader of the Opposition is specifically forbidden under every possible . . . A MEMBER: It's the truth. MR. A. ANSTETT: . . .

interpretation of the rules, and the Leader of the Opposition should be required to withdraw. He, of all people, knows the rules in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek to the same point. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On the point of order, Mr. Speak er, I will just briefly refer you, Sir, to the prospectus on the borrowing of this province, where the Minister of Finance, signed by the Minister of Finance, presented to the people we borrow money from by the Minister of Finance, and I refer you, Sir, to that prospectus where it says the Hydro development stopped in March in 1977, signed by him.

HON. S. LYON: Signed by him, that's right. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Signed by him. You stopped it. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! A MEMBER: What a red herring. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. Order please. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, the point of order is a straightforward point of order. It has nothing to do with Hydro, of Hydro development, of what was said by anyone at any particular time.

The Member for Springfield has pointed out that something clearly defined as an unparliamentary expression has been made in his place by the Leader of the Opposition, and there's a call upon you to ask the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw that unparliamentary expression. That is the sole and simple and single point before you. A MEMBER: That's right. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition to the same point. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has a very selective memory.

The point of order I raised was because of a misstatement made by the Minister of Finance in this House, which he knows to be an untruth, and I ask him to stand and correct that statement because he and the First Minister continue repeating a statement that is a lie. It is a lie. If the First Minister and his Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, are willing to admit that they are uttering untruths in the House, then I'll withdraw the word "lie." SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

If members will check Beauchesne, they will find that a difference of opinion as to the facts does not constitute a point of order. It has often happened before that members hold differing views as to what the facts are. It's clear also from Hansard that it has been necessary in the past for the members to accept the differing points of view that are given by differing members.

It also appears on Page 108, if members will wish to check, that to accuse another member of lying is clearly an unparliamentary use of the word, and I would therefore ask the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to reconsider it and withdraw it in this House. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Spea ker, I have no problem whatsoever. The Minister of Finance has uttered a falsehood in this House. He continues to utter it in the face of documented evidence that his government cut off the construction of Hydro. I called it a lie.

I can't call it a lie in this House because of parliamentary rules; I withdraw the word "lie." I'll call him a liar outside of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health to a point of order. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, very much so. This is certainly not good enough, that kind of an apology, to say that you call somebody a liar in the House. I remember that this House Leader was the person that defended the rights of the House for many many years when he was the House Leader. Now he is making a mockery. Day after day, we're subjected to all kinds of criticism. When, Mr.

Speaker, are you going to start to call him to order? You give us a set of rules and then anything goes in this House. If there's going to be rules, there's got to be rules for everybody or you're going to lose complete control. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition was told to withdraw his remark and he did so. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, and he said he'd call you a liar in the House - you're a liar, but I can't call you a liar ... 4042

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. What members do outside is up to them. HON. L. DESJARDINS: You sure have a lot of order in this House, I'll tell you that, Mr. Speaker, day after day ... to heck with that, I'm fed up with this kind of thing. No rules at all. I might as well be like him and yell and call everybody names. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield on a point of order. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I would draw to your attention on Page 107 of Beauchesne, where the words "deliberate falsehood" and "falsehood" are referrred to as words that are unparliamentary.

The text of the debate references, Mr. Speaker, will confirm that when they are addressed as accusations direct to a member rather than references to principles in debate, which is the reference on the bottom of Page 11 1, that those words are considered unparliamentary. The Leader of the Opposition has attempted to evade his responsibility to withdraw in this House by moving from one clearly unparliamentary word to another. Mr. Speaker, I consider that unacceptable and would ask you once again to ask him to withdraw. A MEMBER: Unequivocal withdrawal. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, you've made a ruling. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: . . . your words when you were sitting here. HON. S. LYON: Go back to being Deputy Clerk; you weren't much good at that either. HON. L. DESJARDINS: It must be embarrassing to be the only genius in this House. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. S. LYON: What a pathetic bunch. What a pathetic bunch. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Why don't you shut up? MR. F. JOHNSTON: We're sick and tired of that Minister of Finance misleading . HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm sick and tired of letting them set your rules, that's all. I don't care what argument there is. HON. S. LYON: How would you like to talk about the truth? HON.

L. DESJARDINS: He's got two sets of rules ... You're an embarrassment to Manitoba and to your party. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert to the same point. MR. G. MERCIER: To the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. In Beauchesne, . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. G. MERCIER: . . . on Page 111 , it is pointed out that it is parliamentary to use the expression "false " or "falsehoods " or "barefaced falsehoods, " continuing on, on Page 11 3, "untrue, untruthful, " Mr. Speaker.

Under the circumstances of this situation and in view of the facts, the words are, I submit to you, parliamentary. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield to the same point. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, specifically on the point that I mentioned myself in my remarks, initially, on the point of order, the references to "deliberate falsehood " and "falsehood " on Page 107 refer to accusations to individuals.

The references, and the member can check that by referring to the Debates of the House of Commons, at the bottom of Page 111 and the top of Page 11 2 relate to accusations with regard to principles, statements and speeches, matters of that, rather than to individuals themselves. HON. S. LYON: You haven't got any principles . MR. A. ANSTETT: The statement by the Leader of the Opposition clearly was directed at the Minister of Finance personally. HON. S. LYON: How would you find a person over there? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

Members will recall that we have faced this same problem before in the past, that certain words appear both on the list of parliamentary and of unparliamentary lists which appear in Beauchesne. As for the comments in which they were used, they are not given. Other than the actual reference to them, I have no means of knowing in what context they were used. I believe the matter has been finalized and is now completed. The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition, when he was campaigning in Rossmere in 1977, led people to believe that if he was elected Premier of this province he was going to continue with hydro-electric development. There were four years during which he was in power when he did nothing. I will let the record speak for itself. Did he do hydro-electric development or did he not? A MEMBER: Did he promise it? HON. V. SCHROEDER: The point is he promised it to hundreds of people in this province who believe that when he tall<.ing about orderly development of Hydro, he tai! ing about building dams. he would 4043

Wednesda y, 29 June, 1983 have done so at that time, indeed, we would have more (Interjection) - surplus power now .. A MEMBER: Now, you're doing it again. HON. V. SCHROEDER: . . . and the rate at which we would be selling it would certainly be less than the rate that we would have to pay for a new dam that is started in 19 83 or 19 84. The Member for Sturgeon Creek gets himself all in a knot because of a temporary freeze by the Schreyer Government in Hydro construction in 1977. That is a fact.

We don't deny that, but what we say is there was a decision made in 19 77 by the Conservative Government not to continue on with hydro-electric development, just as surely as we're standing here, because they overturned . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health on a point of order. HON. L. DESJARDINS: A point of order. The Leader of the Opposition has just yelled from across "You're lying again." And then he's saying are there any rules? Are you going to suffer that this will be allowed in this House repeatedly, I want to know. Because if there are no rules, we want to know. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. I did not hear the word objected to by the Honourable Minister of Health. I will check Hansard to see if it appears in there. Does the the Honourable Min ister of Finance wish to complete his answer? HON. V. SCH ROEDER: Members of the previous administration, whether directly by making a direct decision or by failing to make a decision, in fact, wound up not proceeding with the hydro-electric dam, and for them to suggest that somehow it's the fault of some other government is totally foolish.

They were prepared to react quickly to stop the construction of senior citizen homes, although that man had promised people in 1977 that he would do something about the line-ups because there were too many people waiting to get into senior citizen homes. They stopped all kinds of public construction although they had indi cated to the electorate that they would not do so. Now they stand here as hypocrites and pretend that somehow they have kept all of their election promises and the NOP have kept none of theirs. I remind them that we still have, what? - three years in our mandate.

We have kept many of our promises. There are some we have not kept, one is . . . A MEMBER: Not for us it isn't. HON. V. SCHROEDER: . . . the construction of a hydro-electric dam. I want to tell those members there's nobody on this side who is against the construction of that dam and we would, all of us, just love to be able to announce it to the House and I'm sure members opposite would love to hear it because that would certainly .. . HON. S. LYON: Why did the Premier say he was going to start in '77? HON. V. SCHROEDER: . . . be an indication that something is happ ening economically in the province. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: On a point of order. I want to put it on the record that again the Leader of the Oppos ition referred to the Minister of Finance as a liar. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! A MEMBER: Show some leadership, Howard. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a subsequent question to the Minister of Finance. While he's busy fighting the election of 1977, I'd like to bring him up to 19 83. We had an announcement yesterday of this huge aluminum development in Quebec.

What I'm asking this government, never mind the untruths that they told the people of Manitoba in 1981, which are documented, that they were going to start Limestone immediately and all that kind of nonsense. What is this government doing today to re-interest Alcan in coming back to Manitoba, to create jobs, or to re-interest anybody in coming to Manitoba, or indeed do they want anybody to come to Manitoba at all? Do they want to build their little Berlin Wall around Manitoba and keep out all investment and jobs? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, it's interesting that the Leader of the Oppos ition now wants us to be in 19 83. We've heard him and members opposite continuously talking about 1981. When we start talking about 19 77 they become very very defensive because they recognize how terribly out they were in terms of election promises. But talking about this particular venture, the Leader of the Opposition asked some good questions yesterday in terms of what happening in Quebec and what was happ ening here in Manitoba.

I had given him an answer, I explained to him that because Quebec has a greater surplus of power than we produce altogether, 50 percent of which they can't get rid of, they can't even export. They are saying, they will give this company a fairly lengthy contract selling hydroelectric power to them at about half the rate, just over half the rate that we' re now getting on short term export contracts, No. 1. No. 2, there's a possibility that if - and we don't know with certainty - but we know that last year the Quebec government stated it would contribute $500 million to the $1 .5 billion plant.

That's a factor involved. If we were attempt to bring that plant here the costs to us would be just exponentially greater than they are to Quebec in terms of the cost of power because they already have the export power available and the extra cost of the $500 million contribution toward the project itself would be something that we would also have to take a very serious look at in terms of our ability to gather capital. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. 4044

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 On two separate occasions, he has asked the Deputy Premier, the Minister of Economic Development, to act for him in front of delegations or at demonstrations where he was asked to appear or where he wished to appear, one being the unfortunate one in front of the American Consolate where the Minister was then described afterwards by her Premier as being naive and showing bad judgment, and only the other night he asked the Minister of Economic Development to appear in front of the Pro-Choice demonstration in the front of this building, where she broke down because of her background with respect to this partic ular movement.

My qu estion very simply, Mr. Speaker, is this: When is the First Minister of this province going to be manly enough to accept the responsibilities of his office, face the critics of this government and accept the slings and arrows that come to any First Minister instead of hiding behind the skirts of his Minister of Economic Development? A MEMBER: That's disgusting. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWL EY: Mr. Speaker, all that I can say is that the author of that question must be sick. A MEMBER: You are sick. Greater Winnipeg Gas - rate increases MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer Affairs. Yesterday, as most are well aware, especially the representatives who represent the City of Winnipeg, the Public Utilities Board gave us a report on proposed increases that were solicited for by the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company.

The report had good news and bad news, the bad news being that rate increases were going ahead again; that they were going to be increasing the minimum bill of 50 percent as well; that they didn't really address the situation regarding the budget plan where they now have excesses of $7.5 million in cash two months of the year and over $4 million in excess cash for another six months of the year, or six months in total. Mr.

Speaker, my question is that the report also called for interveners to be able to have funding for the intervening process so that their points can be better put forward to the Public Utilities Board. Does the Minister and will the Minister sup port the recommendation by the Board that interveners be funded publicly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm sorry, I had some difficulty in hearing the qu estion, but I do think I heard the Member for lnkster ask whether or not I was in support of the recommendation by the Public Utilities Board that there be a review of some form of fund ing of interveners to intervene in a presentation. As a matter of fact, I'll quote from the decision . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H. PAWL EY: I am but 10 feet from the Minister responsible for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I'm having grave difficulty in hearing the response of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

I would ask you to ensure that members of the Chamber can have an opportunity to hear the answers to qu estions that are posed to them properly in this House. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the First Minister. I also was having some difficulty in hearing the Honourable Minister. The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was going to quote from the decision, and I quote, "The board wishes to prepare guidelines for discussions with interveners and seeks input from those who are full-time parties to a hearing to assist it in formulating such guidelines which will then be made known to all interested parties." I support that, and I will be asking the board to extend that privilege not only to full-time parties, but to those that may want to intervene on behalf of particular interest groups such as the Seniors Organization. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DA Y HAN SARD CORRECTIONS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, may I refer you to the Hansard of Friday, the 24th of June. On the front page of my copy, it says the Session started at 2:00 p.m. I think it should be 10:00 a.m., Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Speaker, I request a correction to Hansard, Monday, June 27th, 2:00 p.m., Page 3969 in the right-hand column of the fourth paragraph, it reads, "M r. Clarence Dyer," D-y-e-r . It should read, Mr. Clarence Darragh, D-a-r-r-a-g-h. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, before calling the business for the day, I would just like to make a couple of announcements about House business both for this week and !or next 4045

Wednesda y, 29 June, 1983 With respe ct to House business this week, by agreement, there will be no Private Members' Hour this afternoon and there will be no sitting of the House or of any House committee tomorrow. Mr. Speaker, I am also pleased to announce further details concerning the public meetings which will be held for Manitobans interested in obtaining information and commenting upon the proposed agreements to The Manitoba Act. It is presently proposed, Mr. Speaker, to hold meetings beginning in Dauphin and Brandon on Thursday, July 7th; Thompson, July 13th; Winnipeg, July 14th.

Specific times and locations are contained in a press release that will be distributed later today. Steps will be taken, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that the public is given full notification of these meetings through the media and public notices. These meetings, Mr. Speaker , will be chaired by Professor Jack London, Dean of the Faculty of Law. The Attorney-General and such officials of his department as may be necessary to provide detailed information will be available al these meetings.

It is our firm belief, Sir, that through this consultation process, Manitobans will have the opportunity to openly and fully di scuss the prop osed constitutional amendments. In addition to these meetings, the resolution as announced will be referred to one of the standing committees on a date yet to be announced. The amending resolution regarding the official languages will be introduced for debate on Monday, July the 4th. I would just then like to correct one factual error contained in a press

article yesterday, and it's important to the process. That is, the amending resolution does not require the concurrence of any other province. It requires a resolution passed by this House and by the House of Commons and by the Senate under

Section 43 of The Canada Act. Those announcements then, Sir, with respect to House business today and next week . . . HON. S. LYON: That's not House business. Mr. Speaker, could I ask a question? MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Is the Attorney-General telling the House in his . . HON. R. PENNER: It's not question period. HON. S. LYON: Well I'm asking a question based on what the Attorney-General said was House business. Under the item of House business, Mr. Speaker, he announces that there will be informational public meetings held on the resolution relating to

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in Brandon, July 17th, Thompson, July 13th, and Winnipeg, July 14th, chaired by the Dean of the Law School who, to the best of my recollection, is not a member of this House and probably not likely to be, and also by the Attorney-General and by departmental officials. Mr. Speaker, that kind of a meeting has nothing to do with this House. That is a meeting that is called by the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker, for informational and/or propaganda purposes. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: This is not question period.

The member rises in his place and says he has a question. This is not question period. To what point is the member speaking? HON. S. LYON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: I would hope that we are not provoking a debate on this issue at this particular time which has been ... HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, I had no desire to provoke a debate on the matter of sublime importance which this Minister is trying to sneak into the House under the guise of House business which he says now can't be debal(ld. Well, he's not going to get away with it, Mr. Speaker.

Is he telling us that it is House business that the Dean of the Law School and departmental officials of his department constitute some institution or some committee of this House that will go out and propagandize the position ol this government on the amendment to

Section 23 that they are bringing in? Is that his position? Because if that is the case, he should have made a statement to the House at the beginning about what the intention of this government was in its little propaganda venture. That has nothing to do with a committee of this House sitting properly and hearing representations from the public. This is a unilateral, authoritarian decision being made by an incompetent government to deal with one of the most fundamental constitutional amendments that this province has seen. Is he standing in his place today and - worse still - is this Firs!

Minister trying to let this Attorney-General weasel that kind of an arrangement before the House without any debate, this bunch who say they believe in open government and free debate? What kind of people, what kind of a display of authoritarianism are we seeing from this ill-considered Attorney-General? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable . HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I announced very clearly as the First Minister did on Monday of this week, as I did yesterday - "there are none so deaf who will not hear" - that the resolution as debated in the House, the matter of that resolution and the other resolutions will be referred to a committee of the House . A MEMBER: It's not a House committee. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. A MEMBER: No, it's not. HON. R.

PENNER: It will be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections - (Interjection) - Just listen for a minute instead of being so full of your own nonsense, so full of your own desire to hear other than that which is being said. Just listen. 4046

Wednesday, 29 June, 1983 It was said by the First Minister on Monday; it was said by me yesterday; it is said by me again today that the constitutional resolutions are being referred to a committee of the House. Indeed I will announce today, as I just did a moment ago, the particular committee, and that is the Committee on Privileges and Elections. In addition, as we announced right from the beginning HON. S. LYON: That's not what you announced. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, there are - yes, it is. I've got the paper in front of me. HON. S. LYON: No, it isn't. HON. R. PENNER: It is, Mr. Speaker .

I have got the paper in front of me from which I read, and I read word for word. He's sitting there in sublime ignorance, and he will live in sublime ignorance to the end of his days, it's clear. I made that announcement, and now he stands in his place purporting to ask a question, distorting what was said just as he's distorted the whole issue of this constitutional amendment right from the beginning. We will not tolerate that, Mr. Speaker . The issue is being referred to a House committee.

In addition, as the government has the right to do, indeed, Sir, has the duty to do, these issues will be referred to public meetings so the public can come in the outlying districts and ask questions, to comment, receive information. I want to assure you in this House, Sir, and the people of Manitoba, it will be factual, unlike the kind of nonsense we have had from that side of the House and, unfortunately in one instance, from this side of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, the Attorney-General . A MEMBER: Sit down. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Order please. Without provoking a debate among members, recognize that it is proper for the Honourable Attorney General to announce House business or House meetings at this time . To announce government meetings is not appropriate at this time. However, it would seem that since both are involved in this particular issue, it makes good sense to inform all members of both of them at the same time. Can we now drop the issue and move on to Orders of the Day? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, would you please call the adjourned debates on second reading on Bills 48, 3 and 47? MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, Bill No. 48, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert, that the House do now adjourn. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek and seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert that the House do now adjourn. Those in favour, please say aye. Those against, say nay. In my opinion, the nays have it.

I declare the motion lost. HON. S. LYON: Yeas and nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. The question before the House, it's moved by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek and seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert, that this House do now adjourn. Those in favour of the motion, please rise. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEA S Messrs. Anstett, Ashton, Blake, Brown, Hon. Mr. Bucklaschuk, Mr. Corr in, Hon. Messrs. Cowan, Desjardins, Mrs. Dodick, Hon. Mr. Evans, Messrs. Eyler, Fox, Gourlay, Graham, Hon. Mrs. Hammond, Messrs.

Harapiak, Harper, Hyde, Johnston, Kovnats, Hon. Mr. Lyon, Messrs. Manness, McKenzie, Merci er, Mrs. Oleson, Hon. Messrs. Pawley, Plohman, Messrs. Santos, Scott, Hon. Mrs. Smith, Hon. Messrs. Storie, Uruski, Uskiw. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. CLERK, Mr. J. Remnant: Yeas 33. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is accordingly carried. The House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:00 p.m. on Monday. 4047

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-98
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 98.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7eca1a725261f6c4ccbcee50abaaa308db17f42b

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