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October 6, 2020

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Derek Bennett, MHA for Lewisporte - Twillingate,

substitutes for Carol Anne Haley, MHA for Burin - Grand Bank.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Steve Crocker, MHA for Carbonear - Trinity - Bay

de Verde, substitutes for Sherry Gambin-Walsh, MHA for Placentia - St. Mary's.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Lisa Dempster, MHA for Cartwright - L'Anse au

Clair, substitutes for Pam Parsons, MHA for Harbour Grace - Port de Grave.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Elvis Loveless, MHA for Fortune Bay - Cape La

Hune, substitutes for Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA for St. Barbe - L'Anse aux

Meadows.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Paul Dinn, MHA for Topsail - Paradise,

substitutes for Helen Conway Ottenheimer, MHA for Harbour Main.

The Committee met at 9 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Trimper):

Okay, well good morning, everyone.

Welcome to this Estimates review of the Department of Education within the

Social Services sector. I am Perry Trimper, I'm the MHA for Lake Melville, and

I've been chairing all the departments that fall within this grouping of our

government departments.

This morning we are being broadcast and I would remind all members

participating, especially for those who may be new to sitting on the floor, to

identify yourself. What we're asking folks to do is to raise your hand, identify

who you are and Broadcast will find you, if you've been asked to answer a

question. Each time when you respond, please just say your name. As we get into

it, I find the formalities tend to disintegrate as we go back and forth, and

that's fine, but just give the Broadcast folks a few seconds.

So we'll start with 15 minutes to the minister and then 15 minutes for the

Opposition, the main Opposition critic, to have a few words, then we'll be

calling the headings. We'll go through each of them in sequence and we'll be

voting on them as we go.

At about an hour and a half, or halfway through, we'll take a 15-minute break to

give everybody a chance to stretch. If you have any other occasion to want to

get up and leave your chair, we'd ask you to please wear a mask, and that's

fine, please proceed.

So with that, I'm going to turn it to the Minister of Education to please

introduce his team and have a few opening remarks.

Sir.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you know, I'm Tom Osborne. I will start to my right with Eldred Barnes and

then I guess we'll go to our deputy and have staff introduce themselves.

MR. BARNES:

Eldred Barnes, lead for the Education Action Plan.

MR. GARDINER:

Bob Gardiner, Deputy Minister.

MS. HAYES:

Robyn Hayes, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services.

MS. HOWARD:

Jacquelyn Howard, Director of Communications.

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Hi, it's Candice Ennis-Williams, ADM, Post-Secondary Education.

MS. STAMP:

Good morning. Tracy Stamp, Departmental Controller.

MR. EVANS:

Brian Evans, Assistant Deputy Minister, K-12 and Early Childhood Development.

MS. GOSS-PROWSE:

Mary Goss-Prowse, I'm Director of Early Learning and Child Development.

MS. ELLIOTT:

Susan Elliott, Executive Assistant to Minister Osborne.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

I'm not going to take any time with opening remarks. I guess my Opposition

critics hear me often enough speaking and I can wax, as they know, but today

I'll get straight to business and open it for questions.

CHAIR:

Okay. I'll turn to my right and then I'll ask MHA Coady to please introduce

himself. We'll go across the room and then, Sir, you can have some opening

remarks.

MR. PARDY:

Craig Pardy.

CHAIR:

Pardy, I'm sorry.

MR. PARDY:

It's okay, it's close.

On my left here is Darrell Hynes. Darrell is a researcher with the Opposition

Party.

On my right is – I'm assuming we can use the names now in this Chamber –

CHAIR:

Yes, you can in this one.

MR. PARDY:

– Paul Dinn. Paul is the MHA. Last year, his critic role was with the

post-secondary, so he's most interested in today's proceedings as well.

CHAIR:

They can introduce themselves, please.

If you want to carry on, Sir, here.

MR. J. DINN:

Hi, Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre.

To my left is Scott Fleming, one of our researchers.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Minister Crocker, just need to introduce yourself when your light comes on, Sir.

MR. CROCKER:

Steve Crocker, MHA for Carbonear - Trinity - Bay de Verde.

MR. LOVELESS:

Elvis Loveless, MHA, Fortune Bay - Cape La Hune.

MR. BENNETT:

Derek Bennett, MHA, Lewisporte - Twillingate.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Lisa Dempster, MHA for the beautiful District of Cartwright – L'Anse au Clair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Okay, MHA Pardy – I was mixing Craig and Pardy with Coady. Anyway, I apologize

for that. It won't happen again.

Sir, you may commence.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

I'm sorry; we will call the first

section and headings first.

MR. PARDY:

I just have a little short

preamble.

CHAIR:

Yeah, we're going to call the

section headings and then we'll let you go.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

CLERK (Russell):

1.1.01 to 1.2.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Please proceed with the

preamble.

MR. PARDY:

I feel like a veteran now after experiencing last year's Estimates. It is quite

the privilege to be here and to ask questions related to the budget. Sixteen

years in administration I knew many, from Bob and Eldred from my school days, to

what we did. It's great to be here to ask questions on items that were so

significant to the K-to-12 education system.

Tuesday, September 15, I had a talk within this Chamber. I gave a historical

account of the funding from education and health care. I know that you can't

compare health care back in the '80s to what health care would be here in the

current year we are in. I'm quite aware that we're not comparing apples and

apples. One thing I did state at that time, that we were left behind in the dust

with education within the portion of the overall budget of the government.

I used the words and stated this on September 15: That education is underfunded,

but to qualify that a little more, our goal would be in the times that we find

ourselves in to make sure that we can find efficiencies within our system that

we currently have in order to make the K-to-12 system and the post-secondary

system as efficient, and for us to achieve our goal of student achievement

along. I do look forward to the proceeding.

We'll start with some general questions, if I may.

CHAIR:

Yes, thank you.

MR. PARDY:

Is it possible to get a copy of the minister's briefing binder after?

Would there be any errors in the published Estimates book?

MR. OSBORNE:

Not that I know of.

MR. PARDY:

Everything is as …

How many people are employed in the department?

MR. GARDINER:

Right now there are 212 people employed in the department.

MR. PARDY:

Would you have the number employed in the school board as well, NLESD?

MR. GARDINER:

I wouldn't have it off the top of my head. Are you talking about the district

office in particular or all inclusive, including teachers and custodians –?

MR. PARDY:

No, not teachers. Just the district office.

MR. GARDINER:

We can certainly get that for you, yes.

MR. PARDY:

Can you give an estimate seeing we're in Estimates?

MR. GARDINER:

It depends on what you include. There would be four executive and then, of

course, you would have the directors of schools. Off the top of my head, Craig,

I'd say it's probably around 20 directors of schools; Program specialists: There

would probably around 30. We can get the exact numbers for you.

Then, of course, if you want to get into what you're going to call district

staff, there are 22 deaf and hard of hearing itinerant teachers. Are they

district staff? They operate out of the districts but they provide services to

schools. There are 18 blind, visually impaired itinerants, there are 45

speech-language pathologists and there are 43 educational psychologists. I think

there are 10 itinerant teachers for Student Support Services. That includes Safe

and Caring Schools, as well as autism. I'm probably missing a couple, Craig.

MR. PARDY:

That's highly commendable.

I think online, Bob, it states there are 371. If you tally online with the three

districts and there are the three, we'll say, regional offices, counting the

Avalon, Central and West, 371 are the names in the …

MR. GARDINER:

So if you do that, Craig, then now you're talking about secretaries.

MR. PARDY:

Yes, okay.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

Craig, just to be clear, the numbers I just gave you were district staff, I'm

going to say educators.

MR. PARDY:

Yes.

MR. GARDINER:

That wouldn't include managers of HR or those types of things. We can get an

exact number for you, absolutely.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

Did the department receive any funds from the contingency fund this year? The

government has a contingency fund of $200 million. Did we access any money from

that contingency fund this year?

MR. GARDINER:

We would've gotten $20.3 million for the Chromebooks and laptops for the

technology plan. Subsequent to that as well, Craig, there would've been $26.1

million from the federal Safe Restart for schools. That wouldn't have come

directly from the province's contingency fund, but that would've certainly been

part of our contingency operations.

MR. PARDY:

Mr. Chair, do I need to state my name every time?

CHAIR:

No, my observation of how the broadcast is able to follow it, there's a sort of

a relationship. In terms of the conversation going, you don't need to, but when

we switch speakers, then it's helpful to start off that way.

MR. PARDY:

May I ask on the $26 million, where the money has been expended? I know school

buses would be a significant portion of that. How much? Do we have the numbers

or approximate numbers?

MR. GARDINER:

I can give you the approximate numbers and, of course, it's a bit of a moving

target depending on where the need would be. Keep in mind that we would receive

$13 million of this up front and then the other $13 million post-December, once

we report. It's simply a reporting exercise what the first $13 million was

expended on.

There's $1.35 million for the 15 additional administrator units and $2.5 million

for the 25 additional guidance counsellor units. There's also a cost of

approximately $1.1 million for the term contracts whereby we put the 70

substitute teachers in place, interim contracts.

As you'd know Craig, when a substitute teacher is hired in the term contract,

they get the higher rate of pay and the benefits, et cetera. Even though we're

not anticipating extra costs because we have the 70 teachers, those will be

normally called in anyway. It's really logistics but we do have the extra costs

because of the higher rate of pay and benefits, et cetera. It's about $1.1

million.

Then there are other expenditures there for custodians, bus cleaning. The

additional bus runs we've budgeted at around $10.5 million and, again, that

could change obviously. We have 10 teachers at a cost of $1.6 million for remote

learning. There's an additional $1.6 million for student assistants and there's

$350,000 for occupational health and safety and human resource pressures. Then

MR. PARDY:

Yes.

MR. GARDINER:

Then we've also budgeted approximately – and, again, it depends on the need and

the usage – up to $250,000 for the francophone school district.

MR. PARDY:

We can go to our 1.1.01 now, our first line on the Salaries. I'm just noticing

an increase in the Salaries for the Minister's Office. If we can just get an

accounting of the increase there.

MR. GARDINER:

Basically, there's a $1,400 increase there. What that accounts for is the fact

that post-election the minister of the day was no longer the minister. There's a

transition period whereby we carry his salary for a short period of time, so

that's the extra $1,400.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

Transportation and Communications: Last year, I think there was $5,608 less

spent compared to what was budgeted. I know that we're talking about an atypical

year. I would assume next year would be an atypical year because COVID will be

affecting next year's budget more so than this year. Even though there's a

little sliver in there, I'm sure some of this would account for, maybe, the

unusual or atypical year that we've had.

I put that out there as a

preamble or preface for a lot of the comments because

I'm sure a lot of it is impacted slightly by what we've done, even though our

year is only going to March 31, this particular budget.

MR. GARDINER:

Yeah, so basically the obvious answer is that there's lower than anticipated

travel cost in this particular case. Keep in mind that, as you mentioned, this

budget year ended March 31, 2020, and really there's only about a two- to

three-week impact of COVID on this particular budget. But, as you can

appreciate, the Transportation and Communications budget line for the Minister's

Office would be variable and, again, it depends on where the minister lives. So

for part of the year we had the minister from Grand Falls-Windsor and the other

part of the year we had the minister from Springdale. Again, it's a variable

budget, so $5,600 on a $32,000 budget is a significant difference of money.

MR. PARDY:

No, I agree.

On the Salaries for Executive Support, again, not a large but a significant

overrun there.

MR. GARDINER:

Basically, the reason for that was, as we noted last year, there was a special

advisor to the Education Action Plan who was hired about a year and a half or a

couple of years ago, so that's a part of the explanation for the extra salary

expenditure. Worthy to note, that contract actually ended on August 31. That

person concluded his duties. As well, there's a step differential for the

director of communications and other step increases.

MR. PARDY:

Bob, you also mentioned earlier about the money for the technology.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. PARDY:

Can you provide a quick update on the technology? I think the minister said in

his briefing that I think we expect the Chromebooks very shortly.

MR. GARDINER:

So laptops have started arriving. They are in Labrador now as we speak and then

they will be configured and inventoried and sent out to teachers. Other regions,

right now what I was told was they were supposed to come across on the ferry, if

not yesterday, the day before yesterday and they will be delivered to the

various regions: Western, Central and then, obviously, Eastern here in the city.

Again, there will be a process to configure them, mirror them, et cetera, the IT

protocols and then inventoried and distributed to teachers.

The district is expecting the Chromebooks likely closer to the end of this

month. As you can appreciate, there was an order for approximately 30,000

Chromebooks, so obviously there are supply and distribution complexities with

such a large order. They're expecting them towards the end of October. That

said, if there needs to be a school closure or a region that closed down, the

district would have sufficient inventory right now in their normal inventory

that would be able to hold a region over quite easily for a short period of

time.

MR. PARDY:

Bob, might I also ask what the estimate or time expectancy would be to configure

these, all this technology?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes, so that's something that's done fairly quickly because it's just a standard

procedure. It's not labour intensive; it's simply plug it in, let it run its

course and then ship it out.

MR. PARDY:

Okay. Time frame, nothing significant here?

MR. GARDINER:

No. Certainly, teachers should have their laptops, I'm going to say, before the

end of October and then students, certainly, with their Chromebooks before the

end of December at the latest.

MR. PARDY:

Good. Thank you.

How many students did not report to school in September of this year? When I say

from the expectation – I know that, I think, last year we mentioned, Bob, that

we probably have a declining enrolment in our school system, about 1,000

students a year. I'm assuming this September would've exceeded that,

conceivably.

MR. GARDINER:

Two different questions, really, Craig, because if we're looking at –

MR. PARDY:

General attrition.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes. If we're looking at declining enrolment, then, of course, as you'd know,

that would be one AGR session to the next AGR session and that would be our

number. Last year, for example, there would've been about 700 fewer students, so

we would've been expecting 700 fewer students based on the AGR results.

The school district will say that their home-schooling inquiries are up;

however, the number of students that are actually availing of home-schooling

hasn't increased significantly. They're still trying to nail that number down.

has said that last week the attendance was about 90 per cent. Late last week, it

was closer to the high 80s and the last time I spoke to him, yesterday, he said

it was around 90 per cent again. So that's the attendance of people who are

showing up to school.

MR. PARDY:

So we can assume that the 10 per cent are in limbo, waiting for home-schooling

or remote learning.

MR. GARDINER:

No, no. The 10 per cent would be normal absences right now.

MR. PARDY:

Okay. All right.

Are there any teachers or staff that did not return in September due to COVID

concerns or fears?

MR. GARDINER:

Not to my knowledge. That's not to say that they – I mean, there likely would be

teachers off on sick leave for a variety of reasons. COVID-related I wouldn't be

able to tell you, Craig. It hasn't presented itself as an issue. The district

hasn't raised it as an issue.

MR. PARDY:

If it was an issue, I'm sure you would know.

MR. GARDINER:

I would hope so.

MR. PARDY:

So at least that puts it in the right frame; that's the positive frame.

You had mentioned last year in the Estimates that – I think you referenced Stats

Canada – our teacher-pupil ratio of 12.5. I find it very tough to get my head

around that, Bob, when I look at that statistic, knowing it came from the system

when we look at class sizes. I keep thinking on that number. I'll probably never

forget it as long as I live.

If someone said that the teacher-pupil ratio in my career was 12.5, I really

would take strong exception to that. I was a little startled, but I'll never

forget that number. I know that in an entirety, when we look at rural, urban and

we look at all our teachers that we have, I'm sure that's where the number would

come from. Have we changed in that?

MR. GARDINER:

I'm going to startle you a little bit more now, Craig.

MR. PARDY:

I'm easily startled.

MR. GARDINER:

Again, when I go back and try and find the latest Stats Canada numbers – and as

I said last year I was just doing it off the top of my head, but I did look. The

latest numbers from Stats Canada, which is really the only numbers we can use

from a comparison perspective, because they have a methodology that's used

that's consistent; a very rigorous process whereby they collect the data from

the provinces and territories and ultimately report on it.

Unfortunately, the latest comparable data that we would have would be from

2010-2011, which is 10 years old. At the time, actually what they reported as a

student-teacher ratio for Newfoundland and Labrador was 11.8, which was the

lowest in the country, with a Canadian average of 13.8. That's the latest

comparable data. Now, they would include in that likely – and I can't confirm

but they would likely include in that all educators, which would include your

program specialists, et cetera.

So if you just do the quick math for Newfoundland and Labrador this current

school year, using a student population of 63,722, which is the number of

students that were reported on the AGR last year, our actual – and this is just

using teachers, this is not using program specialists or executive at the board

or anything like that; it doesn't include the itinerant teachers that would be

providing services directly to students. But if you use the 63,722 students, our

student-teacher ratio would be 11.69.

It's hard to find comparable data; however, if you look at Nova Scotia that

reports 123,239 students and 9,456.5 teachers. Craig, for comparison purposes,

it's hard to know what's actually in that because it's just saying teachers.

Their ratio would be 13-1. Their latest '10-'11 data from Stats Canada was

actually 12.9-1, so it's probably pretty close to the 13.

MR. PARDY:

Ten per cent absenteeism. That is, I'm assuming, par for the course? I know

we've gone back to the AG report and I know that we're actioning that and

working towards getting those students back into the school, but is that around

what we would expect?

MR. GARDINER:

I would suggest that 10 per cent would be a little high. If you recall from the

Child and Youth Advocate report, she used 10 per cent for a particular student

as chronic absenteeism, as opposed to 10 per cent across the board.

I would suggest, Craig, that typically the absentee rate – and we can get better

data on this – for K to 6, K to 8 would probably be closer to 5 or 6 per cent.

In high school, as you can appreciate, it's probably closer to 8 to 10 per cent.

Overall, 10 per cent might be a little bit high. I'd say normally it would

probably be 7 or 8 per cent on any given day.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you very much.

Mr. Pardy, your time has expired for this current round.

I'll turn it over to MHA Jim Dinn. Please start the next 10-minute questions.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Back to the contingency fund – and I'll start with a few general questions and

just pick up on one or two things that my colleague had asked. With regard to

the money that's gone into the education restart and safe opening schools, other

than the $20.3 million for laptops – which, by the way, is a significant amount

and I commend the government for taking that action. There are no two ways about

it, it's about time we moved into the 21st century and put our money where our

mouth is. I appreciate that.

Is there any other provincial funding that has gone into the restart in addition

to the budget from the provincial side for the Safe Restart of schools? I know

we had $20.3 million for laptops and $26.1 million, I think you said, for the

federal Safe Restart program. Other than that, is there any other funding that's

going into the education system in light of COVID-19?

MR. GARDINER:

No, not to my knowledge, Jim. That would be it right now.

MR. J. DINN:

That would be it. Okay.

How would that compare then to other areas? I think of the contingency fund that

was used for COVID. How would the $20.3 million then compare to other sectors of

the economy? Would it be more or less in line, less than what we would expect or

a bit more than what we would expect?

MR. GARDINER:

I can't speak for the other departments, Jim; I'm not intimately familiar with

it. I will say that the $20.3 million can't be looked at out of context with the

$26 million that the federal is also providing. The total would be more than $46

million.

MR. J. DINN:

No and I appreciate that. I guess I'm looking at what the province itself has

invested.

With regard to the $1.35 million for extra administrator units, where were they

deployed mostly? What would be the breakdown? Mostly rural? Would it be mostly

in the urban areas? How would that have worked out? Where would I find these

units?

MR. GARDINER:

Essentially, what would have happened there, Jim, is the administrative

allocation that was implemented in 2008, we would have went back to that

administrative allocation. In that case there was typically an extra quarter

unit, so basically it was a top-up for administrators in the four different

ranges of schools. Instead of 1½ administrative units, it would be 1¾. It was

spread across the province because there were some changes there for small

schools as well as some of the larger schools.

MR. J. DINN:

Would it be fair to say then that all schools benefited or would there be some

schools that would have received no benefit in terms of this?

MR. GARDINER:

All schools certainly would not have benefited, it would have simply replaced

the allocation – reinstated the allocation that was in place in 2008.

MR. J. DINN:

Will we be able to have a breakdown of those schools that actually had the

increase? Would it be possible to get that?

MR. GARDINER:

That would not be a problem.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

With regard to the $2.5 million for extra guidance counsellor units, again, is

it fair to say that was based on a ratio of 1-333 students? I'm just trying to

figure out how they were allocated.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes, so that would be the allocation model that was recommended in 2008. It's

technically 1-333, but there was a rounding provision that was suggested in the

report itself whereby if it's between one and 1½ it's rounded. If it's less than

one, it is what it is. If it's between one and 1½ it's rounded down to one and

if it's between 1½ and two it's rounded down to 1½. That was the recommendation

from the Shortall report in 2008. That was the premise of those extra units.

MR. J. DINN:

Would it again be possible to have a list of the schools that benefited from

that as well, please?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes, that's certainly possible to do.

MR. J. DINN:

With regard to that, was there any allowance made for guidance counsellors who

have multiple schools across large geographic areas? I can think in terms of the

schools that I've visited where some school counsellors had five schools or two

schools. Let's say the numbers in those schools don't reach the threshold of

333, but they might have 500 students between the two schools or the three

schools. Is there any allowance for those school counsellors or any increase in

the allocation in those cases? Because they still have the workload, plus the

geography.

MR. GARDINER:

Jim, the easy answer to that is once the allocation was revised – and in many

cases it was simply a top-up, because if I was a guidance counsellor responsible

for 500 students, that may have equated to five schools; if now I'm responsible

for 333 students, then that may now equate to three schools. That's the way it

was done. In most cases it was a top-up.

MR. J. DINN:

If there were, indeed, five schools, let's say 250 students each, roughly – I'm

just picking a number. If a school counsellor then hypothetically was

responsible for five schools, then what you're saying is that those schools

would be divided between two counsellors. Would that be fair enough?

MR. GARDINER:

That would be the model, yes.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay because I've heard from a few that's not the case. As this school

counsellor said, they're drowning and they haven't received the extra. I think

that's something that might need to be checked out; I'm not sure how it's

actually working out.

With regard to custodians, have there been problems getting custodians hired? I

understand that last week or the week before there was actually difficulty

getting custodians in, that they hadn't completed the hiring. Is the hiring for

custodians completed? Is there a full complement or are there any problems with

regard to the hiring of custodians for schools?

MR. GARDINER:

We're not aware of any problems right now with respect to hiring. With respect

to a full complement, like any position, you're going to have vacancies

throughout the year, but it hasn't been flagged as an issue right now.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

The $10.5 million for busing: I think there was a recent news report that the

busing budget was actually increased; that it actually had gone up to something

like $12 million or $13 million. Is that the case? That to resolve the busing

issue for COVID-19 the budget is actually more than $10.5 million.

MR. GARDINER:

No, there's $10.5 million in the budget for busing.

MR. J. DINN:

Has it cost more than that or that's what it cost? I know that's what's in the

budget but has it gone over budget to get the extra? Are you aware of the

breakdown?

MR. GARDINER:

We are not aware of any difference of that.

MR. J. DINN:

The $1.6 million for the 10 teachers, I think that's the deal with the students

who are immunocompromised. How is that proceeding?

MR. GARDINER:

The district is currently in the recruitment process. Last week, they had, I

think it was, three in place. They had one assigned to K to 6 and one assigned

to 7 to 9. Of course, as you know, it would be the CDLI that would be taking

care of the high school pieces.

Right now, the demand hasn't been that great in terms of what the requests have

been. They're not behind. As the requests are coming in, they're processing

them. There are no outstanding requests right now, to my knowledge, to be

processed.

MR. J. DINN:

So those teachers have been hired, all of them, have they?

MR. GARDINER:

They are in the process of being hired right now, yeah.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay. How many have been hired so far?

MR. GARDINER:

The last I heard was three.

MR. J. DINN:

Three out of the 10?

MR. GARDINER:

Out of 10.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, when do we expect those to be hired? While there's no demand, we could

very well be in a place where we have demand. What's the timeline?

MR. GARDINER:

We've been told that they would be hired within the next couple of weeks.

MR. J. DINN:

Within the next –

MR. GARDINER:

Yeah.

MR. J. DINN:

So before the end of October?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. J. DINN:

Where would they be housed? I know CDLI is the high school component but how

will this work? Where will they be assigned?

MR. GARDINER:

To my knowledge, there's no geographical boundary per se, it's wherever they

happen to be.

MR. J. DINN:

No, and that's what I'm asking. I understand that, because I would assume that

these teachers will be working from a central location somewhere where they'll

be teaching virtually some. I would assume that's correct.

MR. GARDINER:

It wouldn't be restricted by location, but certainly a couple or three hubs

wouldn't hurt. If the connectivity was there, it wouldn't preclude somebody from

working out of Labrador.

MR. J. DINN:

Do we have sites available where we know where these teachers will be working

from? Because that's going to be the aspect of it, the virtual aspect of it.

MR. GARDINER:

We have regional offices as well as 260 schools in the province, so they can

work out of schools as well.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, so they can. That's what I'm trying to figure out, where they'll be

located. They won't be simply in one area.

MR. GARDINER:

That won't be a requirement.

MR. J. DINN:

No, okay.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Perhaps, Mr. Dinn, we'll pause there and I'll turn back to Mr. Pardy to continue

on for 10 minutes.

Thank you.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm through with

section one.

CHAIR:

Okay, well, thank you. Any further questions on

section one, Mr. Dinn?

MR. J. DINN:

Yes, (inaudible).

I do have one question for Mr. Gardiner. On May 27, he was sent a report from

the district. I'm just wondering what he did with that report after he received

it, because that's been a source of concern. That was the task force report from

the Eastern School District and that was sent to you on May 27 by Mr. Stack.

What happened to that?

MR. GARDINER:

So, Jim, that's was an integral part of our discussions following May 27, which

helped inform the department's plan, which was released on July 6. Again, this

was a piece of work that the school district undertook throughout the month –

later in April and early part of May when we were at Alert Level 4 and

significant thought and ideas went in in terms of how we could move through the

COVID situation we were in. At that time, we weren't even sure if we were going

to open schools again towards the end of June.

In the cover letter to that particular report, it states that this is a

compilation of ideas. This is not a plan; this is to inform a plan. Subsequent

to May 27, we had significant discussions with both school districts and the

NLTA and then ultimately arrived with a departmental plan of July 6, which

helped inform the CSFP and NLESD's safe school reopening plans.

MR. J. DINN:

Did you share this report with the minister, other departments? Did you keep it

to yourself? Because it does ask for some specific information here with regards

to guidance from the chief medical officer of Health, sufficient funding to

provide access to technology, direction from the Department of Education with

respect to modified curricular requirements and, most importantly, that it would

need a significant additional staff and school infrastructure if, indeed,

Learning Model 1 was the preferred option of having every student back.

I'm just wondering what happened to it? Did it stay in your desk? Did you keep

it? Did you pass it on? Did you discuss it with those in the department? I'm

just trying to get an idea of what happened to that report, because for the

longest while we were under the assumption that there was no report.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

Jim, that report, as I've indicated on a number of occasions publicly, was used

to formulate the plan. I should ask you are you in favour of having teachers

come in early and go home late, because that was also one of the ideas in the

report, but the report was a compilation, a wide arrangement of ideas that led

to a plan.

Yes, the chief medical officer of health was involved, Public Health was

involved, the department was involved and the stakeholders that were required to

put a plan together were all involved.

MR. J. DINN:

Again, it's a simple question, Chair: What did Mr. Gardiner do with the report?

I understand that everyone was involved; I understand it was a task force

report. There are many things that are in the back-to-school plan right now, I

think, where teachers are contributing above and beyond their expectations

because that's what teachers do. I've taught for 32 years, I do know what

teachers do. I was president of the association for four years; I know what

teachers are willing to do.

What I do want to know is when a report is sent to and received by the deputy

minister, what did he do with it? It's a simple question. Did he kept it – and

it's not a matter of who was involved, I want to know what was done with it;

with whom did he share it?

MR. OSBORNE:

Jim, that report was used to formulate a plan. So that's what was done with the

report. The report didn't sit idle. The report was received in May and within

five or six weeks government announced the return to school plan. So it didn't

sit idle. It didn't sit on anybody's desk. It was used to formulate the plan. It

was a pretty quick turnaround to have a report from the school district in May

and the first week of July have a plan announced.

MR. J. DINN:

Chair, I still haven't got the answer, but the fact is I can't help but think

that if that plan was put out for public consumption, certainly, or that task

force report, even in June, a month after it had been delivered, we would've had

a very different discussion around the plan and a very different set of

consultations as well, because we were left certainly scrambling at the end of

it.

I should point out that many of the ideas that have come from the department,

whether it's the use of school nurses, the extra substitute teachers, were ideas

that my colleague from Bonavista and I presented the former minister of

Education and also shared with you, Minister, on this. This was the 1st of

August because we were very concerned about the effect that there was no real

plan for the opening of schools in August.

I'm trying to find out here because it's a serious problem as to what – if it

sat on the desk, if it was used to inform a plan, then I certainly would like to

know with whom was it shared and were people aware of it. There seems to be an

unwillingness to even allow the deputy minister to answer that question.

I'll move on. Obviously, I'm not getting an answer here and there seems to be an

effort to keep –

CHAIR:

I guess just to clarify my role. What I'll do is ensure that you have an

opportunity to ask the question. They provided two answers to that question. I

suggest that we move on.

MR. J. DINN:

Yeah.

With regard to this, just to confirm, teachers will have their laptops before

the end of October with all the necessary software on it? Is that correct?

MR. GARDINER:

That's the plan, Jim. They're arriving at central locations in the regions as we

speak.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

The Chromebooks again, for students, by the end of December?

MR. GARDINER:

That's certainly the plan right now, barring any unforeseen circumstances.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, because I was certainly led to believe by officials in previous meetings

that it would be by September. I had my doubts about that, but that's fair

enough. So we are looking at by the end of December.

With regard to schools and cleaning: How many schools within the district have –

and I'm thinking large schools now – I'm looking at the custodians throughout

the day from 7 o'clock, let's say, until 3 o'clock in the afternoon or a normal

day when school is in session.

How many schools have more than one person on at that time? Do you have a

breakdown of the number of custodians per school?

MR. GARDINER:

Jim that would not be something that the department would have. All I can

hired extra custodians to meet the guidelines of public health officials and

they haven't raised it as an issue. In terms of the exact number of hours per

school, that's something that we wouldn't have.

MR. J. DINN:

Cleaning supplies for schools and the school budgets: Has extra funding been

provided to the school boards for the extra cleaning supplies that they need?

I'm thinking in terms of – because what I'm hearing is that right now schools

are actually dipping into their own operating funds to provide the necessary

cleaning equipment and there's a concern they'll exhaust whatever funds they

have for other things.

I'm just wondering how is this – the funding to the district, because there are

extra cleaning protocols for the cleaning of keyboards, desks and so on and so

forth.

MR. GARDINER:

There was extra funding provided to the district as part of the $26-million

federal funding for cleaning, custodians, et cetera.

MR. J. DINN:

How much was it again? Sorry, that's one number I didn't get.

MR. GARDINER:

Custodians was $4.15 million.

MR. J. DINN:

$4.15 million and that's for custodians, the extra hours and all necessary

cleaning products?

MR. GARDINER:

Correct.

MR. J. DINN:

Would it be possible to get an idea of the breakdown of just how much was spent

on cleaning products as opposed to the custodians?

MR. GARDINER:

We can certainly ask for that for you.

MR. J. DINN:

Please. I appreciate it.

I'll leave it at that for now, Sir.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you, Mr. Dinn.

At this time, I'll turn to MHA for Mount Pearl - Southlands, Paul Lane, who is

not a Member of this Committee but knowing him as I've been – this is my fourth

Estimates; I suspect he's interested in asking some questions.

Does this gentleman have leave? I look to my Committee Members if he has leave

and provide your consent to allow him to ask questions. Any objections?

AN HON. MEMBER:

Any time limit?

CHAIR:

He will work with the same rotation of 10 minutes according to speakers on each

section.

I should also note for everyone's benefit that I've been very generous with

these opening questions. They go quickly down into details that I would have

preferred that we dealt with later but that's fine; we have them on the Table.

First of all, Mr. Lane, is he able to ask questions? I look for support from my

colleagues.

You can just gesture to me if you have no objection.

AN HON. MEMBER:

Leave.

CHAIR:

Okay. MHA Lane, you have 10 minutes, Sir.

MR. LANE:

Thank you.

I probably won't be using all the time anyway. All the line by lines,

traditionally –

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible.)

MR. LANE:

Yeah, I know, I do say that all the time. I won't be doing any line by lines

anyway; I just have a couple of general questions I guess.

First of all, I just want to say for the record that I do share some of the

concerns of my colleague for St. John's Centre about the timing of the report

and so on. With that said, that's water under the bridge. I can say that since

that time, and we have a new minister there, that he's been nothing but

co-operative to me. I can honestly say that.

I'm looking to move forward, not look back, but I do share some of the concerns

around the timing of that task force report and the actual plan that was put out

in July or August, whatever it was. Although, I didn't think it was much of a

big plan, it was just basically three scenarios: at home, hybrid or at school.

Anyway, we'll move on.

I'm just wondering, Minister, something came out through the school district

recently about radon in schools. That was something that had been brought to my

attention, actually, a while ago. I'm just wondering where we are with that,

with the concern of radon existing in a number of schools throughout the

province.

I know that the school district, I believe, said they were looking at making

sure that testing was done in all the schools now and that any issues would be

alleviated. It's a concerning issue, radon, but it's not something that requires

a huge investment to correct, to my understanding.

Any comment on that?

CHAIR:

Minister?

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

District for a couple of years. It's a co-operative effort between the federal

for and identifying schools that had a higher than what would be considered

acceptable by Health Canada radon levels.

danger in the schools as long as the issue is remediated. The federal government

has given guidelines of either two years in the cases that are above what's

acceptable, but lower or less concern, or one year in the ones have a higher

concern. The remediation is essentially piping in fans underneath the school to

allow the escape of gas.

One of the things to keep in mind: Homes that are near these schools with higher

than acceptable radon levels would perhaps have the same concerns because of the

geology and so on in this province. It's essentially the breakdown of uranium in

geology in the province, were proactive in trying to identify.

It's with a number of hours in a day and a 70-year exposure that the federal

has been very quick to remediate the schools that have been identified and

intend to do so with the ones that are identified now.

MR. LANE:

Minister, am I to understand then that the remediation is done in all the

schools, or are there a number of schools that are outstanding that are not

done? If there are some that are not done, is it possible to get a list of

what's done and what's not, and a time frame?

MR. OSBORNE:

in this round of testing.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

MR. OSBORNE:

So in the previous round of testing the remediation has been completed.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

MR. OSBORNE:

In this round of testing the results only came out a couple of weeks ago or a

week ago. Within one year eight of those will be remediated and the remaining

will be done within two years.

MR. LANE:

All right, thank you.

On a similar vein related to COVID-19, an issue that has come up is the issue of

ventilation in schools and having at least one window in a classroom that can

open. I know that you have committed to ensure that all the schools had that

work done. I'm just wondering can you give us some idea as to the progress on

that. Has that been done in all the schools or most of the schools?

MR. OSBORNE:

now that have been looked after with a minimum of one window with screening. The

schools that haven't yet, some of the screens have been ordered, some of them

need to be custom made, but in every classroom that has windows at least one of

those will have a screen.

MR. LANE:

Okay, thank you.

Looking at the whole concept of – and I know my colleagues raised the issue

about teacher ratios and additional guidance and all that stuff. I'm just

wondering about children with special needs. I believe you announced there were

some additional resources going into that. But in particular for a pretty

extended period of time now we've heard from one – I don't mind saying the name,

because they're very public. The Churchill family have really been pushing on

the issue of deaf children and feeling that they're not getting the appropriate

resources that are required for deaf children in schools.

Is that ongoing? Has that issue been resolved or is that still an ongoing issue?

If it hasn't been resolved to the satisfaction of the parents, is there anything

being actively pursued to hopefully address their concerns?

MR. GARDINER:

Mr. Lane, yes, about a year and a half ago there was a working group

established, comprised of the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of the Deaf,

the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association Newfoundland and Labrador chapter,

Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority, as well as the department and

audiologist.

Significant work has gone on over the past couple of years. For example, the

immersion program at East Point Elementary where there are four or five

profoundly deaf children that are grouped in that school and a part of that

school community. But, again, they have an opportunity to interact with each

other throughout the day.

The Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority has provided professional

learning to our 22 deaf and hard of hearing itinerant teachers, as well as

starting to do some assessments on some of the children here in the province. It

was scheduled for last year, but this year some of our deaf and hard of hearing

students, particularly some of the deaf students, will participate in some of

the short camps that APSEA typically would have; yet to be determined whether

that would be in person or virtual, depending on the COVID.

Eldred, I don't know if you want to add any more in terms of the working –

you're good?

MR. LANE:

All right, thank you.

I guess my last question for now is going to be – I'm just wondering: Is there

any appetite now to look at the 1.6-kilometre school busing rule, at least for

K-to-6 children? This has been an ongoing issue. We keep saying we're on par

with other provinces and there's no doubt we are. I acknowledge that, but it

continues to be an issue.

When the former administration was over there, this administration was lobbying

to change it. Then, when this administration, the other one – it keeps going

back and forth. The reality of it is that it is a safety issue in a lot of

areas. I know in Mount Pearl as an example, every school in Mount Pearl is

surrounded by a – there's a four-lane road, if you will. Whether it be Old

Placentia Road, Richard Nolan Drive, Ruth Avenue, Smallwood Drive, Commonwealth

Avenue, they're all bounded by four-lane roads, lots of traffic.

Sidewalks are not always clear in the winter. Mount Pearl is great at snow

clearing but can't be 100 per cent all the time. I'm just wondering, is there

any movement?

MR. OSBORNE:

It certainly won't be this year. We've added 145 new buses this year. I think in

terms of what we've provided, the challenges with getting those buses, with

getting drivers for those buses and other implications, including parking lot

congestion as a result of additional buses, it won't be this year.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Any further questions, Mr. Pardy, on this section? No.

Mr. Dinn? No, you're fine on this section.

Mr. Lane, any further questions here?

MR. LANE:

No.

CHAIR:

I'll turn to the Clerk.

CLERK:

1.1.01 to 1.2.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 through to 1.2.01 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against,

' nay.'

This

section of the Estimates has been completed.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 1.2.01 carried.

CHAIR:

Now to the Clerk.

CLERK:

2.1.01 to 2.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

We turn to Mr. Pardy.

MR. PARDY:

Mr. Chair, I look at the clock and know that we've gone one hour on the

Minister's Office. I think of all the sections that are before us and when we

get to the post-secondary, which is at the very end, that would be so

unfortunate if we didn't get through the budget in the time that we're allotted.

May I have permission to transcend from one

section to another

section without

aborting my time? It seems that –

CHAIR:

What I would say in defence, Sir, is that I was very generous in a lot of the

questioning. If you look at the specifics of many of the line items, we actually

did delve into much of that. I'm going to try to be more rigid as we go through

and so on, but we'll take the time as needed.

If the Committee feels they need more time, we can arrange for additional time.

Right now we are scheduled for three hours. We have a maximum that we have to be

out of here, at 12:45 at the absolute latest, but we are scheduled for three

hours and we'll see what the Committee feels at 12 o'clock.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you, Sir.

The Administrative Support, I know we discussed last year and we talked about

the operating system for controls for the monitoring of the school board

expenditures and their budget. If I'm not mistaken we talked about looking at it

coming under the department system of last year to streamline it. The genesis of

our discussion last year was the 2018 Auditor General's report where it looked

at we had fraud within the system and she uncovered that.

I think that was the strategy that we discussed last year. I'm just looking for

an update. I think this is the

section of which that would apply to. Are we

merging those two entities into one system for the safeguards?

MR. GARDINER:

Craig, I would suggest there's not a

section in here that would relate to that

because that would be a broader government initiative.

Yes, this time last year we were talking about attempting to bring the school

district into government's shared services. A significant piece of work was done

on that; however, in the end it was determined that the school district was

different enough right now because it has 254 schools, 254 sites as part of it.

A school district is certainly different than a normal government operation, so

the decision was made that the school district would actually be purchasing a

system that was tailor-made for school districts that's used throughout the

country. It's called Cayenta. That was the preferred option for the school

district in terms of moving forward with a new system for finances and

inventory, et cetera.

MR. PARDY:

I'm assuming it's been proven; we've done a jurisdictional scan on that. The

rationale for having a different system was …?

MR. GARDINER:

Well, it's because of the uniqueness of the school system in and of itself. Many

of the school districts across the country are not part of government systems.

It's not a nice, neat match because of the uniqueness of the school districts.

administrative system that can really reach into 254 schools, which is a lot

different than central purchasing and the typical way government works.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good. Thank you.

Looking at 2.1.01 on the Salaries, I think all the Operating Accounts are less

in the actuals than what was budgeted. Instead of going through each one

individually, looking at the Operating Accounts in its totality there was less

spent on every

section there. Again now, I default to COVID, but it can't be.

MR. GARDINER:

No. I'll speak to this one, but it will come up again and again and you'll see

in a second.

In this particular account, Craig, Employee Benefits, Transportation and

Communications, and Property, Furnishings and Equipment: those three line items

are significantly less than what was budgeted. The reason for that was last year

the department went through an exercise whereby it consolidated those line items

from various divisions – so Programs and Services, Student Support Services,

Evaluation and Research.

It wasn't a reduction per se, but it was basically consolidating it into one

spot so that we could better allot money to various divisions in a more fair and

equitable way.

As you can see in the budgeted amount versus the 2021 Estimates amount, there's

no change or very little change. That's because the money is still there for

next year. The issue became, we restated it, we put it in the budget line;

however, when it was charged off it didn't come out of that particular budget

line, it came out of budget lines back in the divisions which it shouldn't have.

You'll actually see some expenditures later on in Programs and Services,

Evaluation and Research, Employee Benefits and Property, Furnishings and

Equipment. We might have spent $2,000 and you're looking saying there was no

money there to begin with. Well, that's where the money came from.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you.

Just as a matter of curiosity, and I know you shouldn't let curiosity enter into

this, but remember last year we talked about Transportation and Communications

and I think there was $127,000 was spent on postage. I quickly default and said

we use more email than what we did in the past. I thought that was large, but I

realize the magnitude of our operation.

Is that figure generally the same or was that decreased somewhat? If we had a

breakdown on postage cost, that might seem trivial but it would be just more …

MS. HAYES:

It has reduced somewhat but not totally significantly. It is down a little bit,

given that we do use email more.

MR. PARDY:

Good.

In the Grants and Subsidies, again, much less. Is it the same thing with those

that they were moved to other departments?

MR. GARDINER:

No.

MR. PARDY:

No. These are the ones that are approved due to the minister's discretion?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

We have in that area, I think it is $35,000. That was just over $8,000 spent in

that particular area.

MR. PARDY:

Minister, the submissions that were made on this, I'm assuming that they were

granted. There were none that were turned down; it's just that you didn't get

submissions into the department for those available funds.

MR. OSBORNE:

Yeah, I don't imagine. I can't speak because it is at the minister's discretion.

I can find out but I don't imagine somebody was turned down if they had come

forward, because less than a quarter of the money was actually spent.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good.

I ask that knowing there are a lot of needs out there, whether it be playground

or lack of play facilities at a certain school, then there are a lot of needs

that would be there.

In the second

section when we looked at the Grants and Subsidies, 2.1.02: Are

the recipients the same as what they were last year? We don't need to go through

them, that's not an efficient use of our time, but if they are the same we could

just move on.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes, they're exactly the same, Craig.

MR. PARDY:

Exactly the same.

MR. GARDINER:

The same every year.

MR. OSBORNE:

(Inaudible) the recipients.

MR. GARDINER:

The recipients? Yeah, you're talking 2.1.02, Assistance to Educational Agencies

and Advisory Committees?

MR. PARDY:

Correct.

MR. GARDINER:

Yeah, so that would be your CMEC, CAMET, Federation of School Councils, Murphy

Centre.

MR. PARDY:

Yes.

MR. GARDINER:

Yeah, same.

MR. PARDY:

Bob, I've always used the adage that if you're doing things the same, you're off

track. Every time I hear something that's the same and goes year after year

after year, if it's the same amounts then I would say that there might be

something we need to revisit here in this portfolio to make sure that we have

the right costing. If not, to see as to whether there are other entities out

there that might be worthy of this significant amount of funds. They all are –

just to be on the record, but just to know that there may be some others.

I don't know how many years we've been with the same numbers, and I can't think

of anything off the top of my head. I don't think we need to spend time on that,

but it's just something to know going forward to analyze that pool of money.

MR. GARDINER:

So if I can just speak to that very quickly, Craig.

In many cases, for example, if it's the Council of Ministers of Education of

Canada or the Council of Atlantic Ministers of Education and Training, those

types of organizations, their budgets, from a provincial and territorial

perspective, haven't increased probably in seven or eight years, although they

would like to see an increase.

MR. PARDY:

Yes.

MR. GARDINER:

But their lines of business certainly have changed and it's a continuous.

Now, that said, Murphy Centre, for example, is funded from here, and the Murphy

Centre amount has increased over the past three or four years.

MR. PARDY:

Good. Thank you.

In my concluding time, my colleague mentioned radon. I would say the entry into

looking into radon in our schools is a good thing. I celebrate that and wherever

the origin was – and I know that my hon. colleague said that we don't look back

and we ought not to, but I know that we were the last province to do so. I know

that in legislation we find ourselves that we're often the last ones. We have to

look at jurisdiction to find it happened in every other province. But on this

one, I only wish that the previous three governments jumped into it.

The only thing, just for the record to know, that I'm glad it's happening. Any

time we look at anything that jeopardizes the safety of our students and staff,

it's a good thing.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MHA Jim Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to start with, you addressed the operating accounts and basically what I'm

understanding is it's a consolidation, the amounts here. With regard to

Salaries, in this the discrepancy, I think, is $181,000. Would that be the same

then? In the actual, it dropped by about $181,000.

MR. GARDINER:

No, Salaries would be different than that, Jim. The consolidation happened in

Employee Benefits, Transportation and Communities and Property, Furnishings and

Equipment.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay. That would be the same rationale as such, would it?

MR. GARDINER:

No, no. Salaries, the difference there was because the front desk position was

vacant for the entire year and that's one of the positions that we are offering

up in terms of the attrition management.

It just speaks to some vacancies. We could have a vacancy for a month, a couple

of months so, obviously, that's budget savings. There were four vacant

positions: an organizational budget analyst, departmental program coordinator,

financial analyst and information management analyst for various periods of

time.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay. The reason why it's pretty well back up to what it was, you're looking at

filing those and probably slightly up –?

MR. GARDINER:

Absolutely, yes.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, fair enough. That sounds fair enough.

Again with Purchased and Professional Services, there's still not a minimal

(inaudible) but I guess you're looking at the Purchase Services and Professional

Services will remain pretty much the same as what they were last year.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

In the Estimates from last year, there was a

section 2.1.03. I know it's not

there this year. It was entitled Policy and Information Management. There was

spending of nearly $1 million associated with it. Have these expenses been

relocated to this section? I'm just looking at what happened to it.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes, Jim, the short answer is yes. If you look at the heading 2.1.01, it's

Administrative Support, Policy and Information Management.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

MR. GARDINER:

It's all rolled into one.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, thank you very much.

With regard to the Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees, I

don't need a listing right now but would it be possible to get a breakdown as to

what they're used for or which organizations receive what?

MR. GARDINER:

Mr. Pardy requested a copy of the binder beforehand so that will be in it.

MR. J. DINN:

Perfect, excellent.

We'll get a copy of that too?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

With regard to the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of School Councils and

to the point that my colleague from Bonavista raised that we've been doing the

same. I know that there was a slight increase by about $5,000, I think, to their

budget. That's something that the minister and the NDP caucus – we talked about

in a previous lifetime.

Is there an intent here to lease with them, since they provide such an integral

role, to look at bringing in the grants, the assistance that they receive back

up to, I think what it was, it was around $50,000 at one time per annum? By the

way, Minister, not necessarily all in the one year, but I'm talking about a plan

to eventually get them back up.

MR. OSBORNE:

Yeah, I've had some discussion with them. I'm certainly willing to entertain

gradual increases over time.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, appreciate that.

I think, Chair, that's all the specific questions I might have related to that

section that I can see. I have questions for later on but I'll come back to

them.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Pardy, any further questions on this particular section?

MR. PARDY:

Just a list of the Grants and Subsidies in 2.1.01. Bob, would that be in the

binder as well? The ones from the minister? That would be in the binder?

MR. GARDINER:

Say …?

MR. PARDY:

I said you mentioned that the Grants and Subsidies under 2.1.02 will be in the

binder that we'll see.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. PARDY:

I'm just wondering about the Grants and Subsidies in

section 2.1.01. Would that

be in the binder?

MR. GARDINER:

Those are not in the binder, but we can certainly get you a copy of those.

MR. PARDY:

Fantastic.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, you're good.

Mr. Lane, any questions on this section?

MR. LANE:

A very quick one.

First of all, anything that you're providing to the two parties, I would like to

have a copy of as well, in terms of the binder and all of that information.

I have one general question and that's one that I've asked in all the Estimates

and I'll keep asking it. I'm just wondering, in terms of COVID-19, there has

been – obviously, I think we've realized we can do things differently. There's

been some savings, I would suspect, in terms of utilizing Zoom for meetings

instead of travel. I can see where that could be beneficial as well in the

school districts, as well as with the department and utilizing technology. Maybe

people working from home, some savings that could possibly be accrued there if

we don't need as much office space.

The bottom line is, I guess, are you planning on looking at how we've done

things differently within the department and making it a permanent thing, where

it makes sense, in the future?

MR. OSBORNE:

The short answer to that is absolutely.

MR. LANE:

That's all the questions I have.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

I'll turn to the Clerk, then. We will enter in this

section of the Estimates.

CLERK:

2.1.01 to 2.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.1.01 through to 2.1.02 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

This

section of the Estimates is carried.

On motion, subheads 2.1.01 through 2.1.02 carried.

CHAIR:

Let's go into our next section.

CLERK:

3.1.01 to 3.6.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Nice jump there. Okay, thank you.

3.1.01 through to 3.6.01.

Mr. Pardy, you are up, Sir.

MR. PARDY:

Moving right along.

3.1.01: There's an increase of roughly $7 million over what was spent last year.

That's in the Regular Teachers

section there. I'm just asking what that would

account. I'm trying to read your mind, Bob. That's a dangerous thing.

MR. GARDINER:

All good.

Essentially, Craig, when you look at this particular budget line, this includes

what we have listed there as regular teachers. Then everything underneath that,

of course, is tied to regular teachers, as you can see: substitute teachers for

leave – that would be sick leave, family leave, et cetera – substitute teachers

for professional development leave and Employee Benefits. As the number of

teachers change then, obviously, those budget lines have to change accordingly.

Really, what this summarizes here is there was a reduction in the regular

teachers' salary because of declining enrolment. Then, of course, this year we

added on an extra 100 teaching and learning assistants, an extra 50 reading

specialists and an extra 13 learning resource teachers. So there's a slight

decrease for declining enrolment; then there's an increase for those extra

resources in terms of the Education Action Plan.

MR. PARDY:

Bob, I think the decline at last year's Estimates, you had mentioned 46 or 49

teachers previously were lost as a result of declining enrolment with 1,000. I

assume it is 700 now, students, that would be – what number would we be looking

at?

MR. GARDINER:

You're right, 49 last year. This year it will be 33.5.

MR. PARDY:

33.5. Okay.

Was there any change in the number of teachers that were seconded, do you think,

from year to year?

MR. GARDINER:

Not this year.

MR. PARDY:

Negligible?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. PARDY:

No difference in that.

If we can go to the School Board Operations, probably just a general comment on

that, Bob – and I'll probably just throw a question out – or the minister. My

last year in the system was 2013 when I retired as an administrator at that

time. That rings a bell because we had the consolidation of boards at that time;

remember we were going from four down to one?

The rationale at that time, when I was in the system, was that there was the

thought – and we all agreed – in the system that when we did that we would get

more resources in our classrooms because we were streamlining the school board

operations so that we would make sure that the classrooms were looked after

primarily. There was tremendous support for that. I echoed it and applauded it

as an administrator when we know that we struggled each year with sometimes

those large class sizes in metro. Contrary to the 11.6 or in that range of 12.5,

but in those metro large schools we faced large enrolments.

Take the totality of rural and urban, then I would think that, yes, we have a

number that we're faced with, but in all practicality at Clarenville Middle

School and at the schools that Mr. Dinn references quite often, busting at the

seams. I thought it was a good idea. But before coming here to Estimates today,

I looked at the budget lines since 2012 to current to find out about the School

Board Operations. We dipped one year and if my memory serves me correctly, it

may have been that year or the year that was after where it dipped slightly.

Since then, we've been increasing.

I would say to you it didn't work out like we had anticipated and what we

thought in 2013, that we were applauding because it didn't happen. If I look at

the numbers, I think it is 200-and-something employees in the Department of

Education. The number that was online was 371 in the school district and I know

that's all inclusive, Bob, when we look at that figure. If you add those two

numbers together and look at our administrative content that looks after

supporting our schools, at a time where you're constantly hearing schools out

there saying we can't manage, we have 35 in a classroom – and I can say that in

the later part of my career that is what we were faced with, high numbers.

I would look at the entity and the administration and the operationalizing of

our schools like we look at the Grants and Subsidies. If that's remaining the

same and we have all those personnel looking after the operationalizing of

schools, and we still, in our system, have those schools that are busting at the

seams with large classes, it's probably something that we should look at going

forward.

The concept of the school board to support the schools – and many of these

schools are stressed, there's something that doesn't fit very well in that

aspect. I've always contended and long contended, without data or without

evidence – but I would love to be in a conversation sometimes where you look at

if those entities were merged; we look at a school board and the Department of

Education would become one streamlined and would operationalize and look after

the schools.

My colleague, Mr. Dinn, had mentioned earlier about the task force report. I

concur with that. It didn't seem correct, even though I know that everyone's

intent was on board and I think they were focused on the school year. There are

no stones to throw, but if we look at the optics that's outside there, when

government would come out and say, well, that is the school board report. It's

not the school board report, because a school board operates under government,

it is always a government report.

There was nothing in the school system – if I was the administrator, the

principal of Clarenville Middle School, I was accountable for everything that

happened in the school. The minister would be accountable for everything that

would happen within that whole fraternity. So the only thing – without getting

too carried away, but you can tell that I have a passion with that – is to look

at a system where you would streamline the operations personnel wise, and you

turn it right around and you start at the classroom level, on the bottom of the

school system, to make sure that your personnel are placed.

Many of the things we respond to here now are based because we have such stress

in our system; we have such stress in many parts of our system. If you look at

what we've added in the third year – and I think the minister had stated he

added 200 teacher learning assistants, 104 reading specialists, 39 reading

resource teachers and they are all good. They're good additions to a system, but

keep in mind that we still have classes of 35 that are out there in the system

and we add things to a system that is stressed.

The only thing I would contend is that when we look at this management entity,

we streamline that entity to put the resources to make sure where they're needed

the most within the school system. How that works and operationalize, you've got

the data; you've got the system. Politics ought not to stop that. When I say

politics, we don't need a buffer or a fall guy or someone in the middle to say,

listen, it's them who are responsible; it's their call. It is more efficient for

us as a province to say stand by what happens, because ultimately it's the

minister's responsibility, whatever happens, ultimately.

I digress, but anyway, at least you know exactly how the man feels about

everything. At least I can share with you that I certainly think that we may –

may – and Bob may take exception to that – but I think we may be top-heavy and I

know that each single entity is not top-heavy, but if you merge them together

there may be resources and dollars that, all of a sudden, we can move to

alleviate the stresses in the system. Instead of adding to the periphery, let's

make those class sizes more reasonable.

If I had a class that was 1-15, you can move the world; 1-20, what you couldn't

achieve and a lot of the things that we add on to counter the stress will not be

necessary, because with that ratio you've got a far greater working ratio.

CHAIR:

Your time is expired, Mr. Pardy.

Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

I wasn't going to launch into a speech, but I really have to pick up on what my

colleague has said and I'll echo what Mr. Pardy has said.

exhausted at the end of that class than I could going in to a class of 30

student, the nature of the child and the needs deficit that's there.

I think that's one of the things we expected, certainly, when the boards were

amalgamated is that somehow the resources would end up in the classroom. Really,

in the end, I share the fact that it seems to have gotten top heavy and on the

ground in the schools, it has not changed significantly.

I've seen full-day kindergarten, play-based learning work remarkably well in a

school in Central where I watched the teacher being able to observe when a child

picked up on something or accomplished an outcome where she could – perfect,

look at that. I watched it happen. In the metro area, in St. John's, where you

have much larger classes, that's significantly more challenging to do. Throw

into that – and I go back to the 15 students that I had – the needs of the

children in that class.

I've already had some teachers approach me who were attacked by a student

recently. Whether their resources were there or not, I don't know, but the fact

is that when we're looking at the numbers in the classroom, it has to be more

than just simply the student-teacher ratio; it has to be also factored into the

needs of the children in that classroom. That's one of the things that, when I

was president, we tried to look at. When you're looking at a class size, you

have to factor in the number of children that have special needs, but there is

even more to it than that, the frustrating part about this with the school board

operations and trying to get the necessary teaching services in mine.

What we would resort to get class sizes down to a reasonable size or to get the

extra help – I can tell you because I was involved in it, certainly in

counselling teachers as a president and as a teacher myself – it came down to

let's start using the fire regulations of the 20 square feet and the 30 inches

of egress between desks. That's basically how I and other teachers were able to

get the class sizes down to below the cap, because they exceeded even the fire

regulations. They were not even within fire code.

Basically, in the one school where they had been seeking intervention, seeking

the extra resources for a child who was violent – and by the way, most of the

times I would hear of violence in the classroom was not at the high school; it's

usually at the elementary and primary. That's where it occurred. In this one

particular school, despite the best efforts of the administration and the

school, they could not get the extra unit until, of course, the teacher was

struck and threatened to use the right to refuse work. I threatened to go public

with it.

It should never have to come to that, but there is a problem in the system when

a principal is sitting at his desk in a school adjacent to a busy street,

keeping an eye out because one of the students is a runner, as we would call

them. A child who might very well run out into the middle of the street in harms

way. So I think in many ways what I've fought for and what I'll continue to

fight for is the resources in the schools so that teachers and staff can do

their jobs because those working conditions, those teaching conditions are the

learning conditions of the students.

I think in many ways there's a certain benefit to amalgamation, to bringing

boards together, but I think bringing in one large school board to try and

govern this province, to manage it, I think it's just as well to get rid of it

altogether and have the Department of Education manage it, if that's the case.

Or, I think, it would be more appropriate even to look at dividing them up into

smaller sections so they could respond more appropriately to the areas.

I don't know if we saved any money in the school board operations with that and

I don't know if the resources have necessarily gone into the classroom.

Certainly from the teachers who called me this week with large class sizes and

multiple needs, that's not the case.

So, with that in mind, let's just take a look at a few questions there. With

regard to Allowances and Assistance, just with regard to what is that budget

line for, the 09, I think, under 3.1.01?

MR. GARDINER:

Jim, that budget line is actually for bursaries for students. I'll use Mud Lake

as an example: when they hit high school there, then they move to another

community and pays for a bursary for those students.

MR. J. DINN:

It looks like we paid out most of that, so that's pretty good then. A pretty

good uptake.

MR. GARDINER:

Oh, I'm sorry, Jim, I misspoke. My apologies, I was looking at the wrong one.

That's actually – no, the Allowances and Assistance, $30,000 and we only paid

$12,500.

MR. J. DINN:

No, I was looking under 3.1.01, $40,000 and we paid out $37,500.

MR. GARDINER:

Oh, I'm sorry.

So that's the math bursaries for teachers.

MR. J. DINN:

Oh, excellent. So there's good take up on that.

How many teachers benefited from that?

MR. GARDINER:

I don't have the exact number, but I know the number of – and, again, it varies

from fiscal year to fiscal year. We have had over 100 applications and, again,

the money is paid out depending on when they do the course, but there's

significant uptake from the K-to-6 teachers.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, excellent.

Lucky; if I was there I would probably be up taking on it myself, but that's

another matter.

Okay, with regard to Regular Teachers, and, again, I think you mentioned that

there was an increase in the budget of a little over $3.5 million and that's

simply the addition of teachers with regard to the Education Action Plan.

MR. GARDINER:

Factored into that then would be the reduction for declining enrolment, as well;

some in, some out.

MR. J. DINN:

But still you're looking at an increase this year.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

Substitute Teachers, I notice that there's no change. With the extra teachers,

the teachers who were hired under the – I'll call it the COVID leave or the

COVID substitute teachers, the ones who are on contract, that's factored into

that or not?

MR. GARDINER:

That would not be factored – well –

MR. J. DINN:

Or would that be factored into the Regular Teachers salary?

MR. GARDINER:

Right now, they would be factored into the Substitute Teachers - Leave because

we would be using those teachers as substitutes anyway, typically that would be

the plan. The only difference is now they're assigned to a school so they're not

going to be called in every morning. The extra $1.1 million from the feds is to

offset the difference in the Substitute Teachers pay versus the Regular Teachers

pay.

MR. J. DINN:

Perfect, okay.

I'll ask this question here with regard to the substitute teachers who are in

the school system right now. I'm in a school where there's a substitute teacher

who is hired on and let's say I'm a French teacher or I'm a physics teacher

where, obviously, you're going to need a certain skill set. Let's say that I'm

out or let's say the French teacher is out, and the substitute teacher doesn't

What happens in that – and let's say this teacher is out for two or three days

for whatever reason – that substitute teacher who is there, is that the first

person to cover that teacher that's out, regardless of whether he or she has the

qualifications or not? Is there an allowance for the specialist teacher or

whatever to call in a substitute who has the qualifications? I'm just trying to

figure out how that would work now.

MR. GARDINER:

Typically, the substitute teacher who is placed in the school will be the first

person that they would go to; however, obviously, if the substitute teacher is

not qualified, which typically wouldn't happen in a K to 6, unless it's a French

immersion piece. The way these were placed in schools was based on the number or

the average number of substitute teacher days used per school.

Typically, for example, and I don't have the number in front of me, Jim, but if

there was an average of, I'll say, three substitute teachers per day in a

particular school, that school may have one of the term contracts. You would

expect there would likely be one, two or three substitute teachers in that

school for the day. A teacher for French immersion would be called in because

the other teacher would likely be used somewhere else anyway. The

qualifications, obviously, would need to be made.

MR. J. DINN:

My time is up but I'll start that up the next time I'm up.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Dinn.

We will pause now as promised and take a 15-minute recess. So be back here at

10:51.

Recess

CHAIR:

Thanks, everyone, for coming back.

Mr. Pardy, back to you, Sir.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Last year in Estimates we talked about when the final year of the Action Plan

was done we would revisit the teacher allocation model. That was the previous

minister had stated that.

Are we still on for that review? I'm assuming this is the third year, isn't it,

of the implementation? The last year? Now that we have all the resources

deployed, are we hoping still for a review of the teacher allocation?

MR. OSBORNE:

Work is progressing towards that, yeah.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, that's a definite maybe on the record.

One thing I would say to you, we didn't have the data last year but we asked for

the teacher sick leave, what it would cost for the teacher sick leave to support

teachers that would be off work. That was provided last year, but if you look at

the figures from 2014-15 to current – I think the current at that time, what you

supplied last year was '18-'19, and '18-'19 were a little over $18 million to

support teachers who are off work due to illness. That was a 20 per cent

increase from '15-'16 to that.

Twenty per cent is significant. Probably the math on that would be – you're

looking at over $2 million. I would say we had two increases in class size

allowances: 2016 and again in 2018. I'd like to ask: Do you entertain the

possibility that increase in sick leave may correlate with the increase in class

size? That's probably a hypothetical question, but can you see a potential

correlation between those two instances?

MR. OSBORNE:

I wasn't at last year's Estimates, obviously, but you said it was over $18

million. Just over $17 million is the average this year, so there's been a bit

of a drop. I'm not sure you could actually draw that correlation, but I mean

it's something we can look at.

MR. PARDY:

Yeah and that wouldn't be COVID-related, that figure – would it not – not out

two, three weeks. Not really. No, that's good.

The NLESD task force report on May 27 stated – and I read because it caught my

eye. On page 26 of that report it stated: “The budget for student assistant

salaries has seen pressure over the past several years. If additional student

assistant hours are required to maintain the existing level of care, funding

must be requested from EECD.”

What would they mean by pressure? Would that mean inability to supply due to

financing? I know now we're back to the level where we could say that could be a

school board issue, but remember they're asking the department for more funds if

there's an increased demand.

MR. GARDINER:

In terms of what they mean by increased pressure, they'd have to speak to that.

That said, there is an increase, as you can see in the Estimates document, of

$600,000 this current school year. A s

well, there was an increase of $1.3 million for student assistants as a result

of federal funding. So $600,000 is an increase from last year and then another

$1.3 million for student assistants this year from the federal funding.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

MR. GARDINER:

Sorry, Craig, $1.6 million federal funding. So $600,000 provincial funding and

$1.6 million federal funding.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you.

One thing I did mention last year, as an administrator – and I throw this out

again just going forward, knowing that we're looking at our expenditures –

school bus transportation. You know the particulars, I don't. I was just on the

receiving end.

I know we had schools that would lose 14 days, at least, with buses running. In

our school, we had 14 that served our school. If we lost 12 days or 10 days due

to inclement weather, then those buses were paid for by the taxpayers of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

I don't throw it out for a question, I just state that going forward when we

look at the efficiencies we have, if we're going to say that it's tough to put

out a contract knowing that you may lose so many days and you won't be paid for

that time, I understand that. But we probably need to make sure that those days

that are lost enable the schools to be able to use those buses in a much clearer

and precise manner.

Say Clarenville Middle School misses one day; one day might equate to 250

kilometres. It's quite conceivable they have enough on that one day to be able

to support a student trip under a normal year to St. John's or to some event and

to come back. It does save the money of taxpayers because they've already paid

for that bus that would run.

I know that contracts come up but at least when you sit down to do a negotiation

going forward, have that a little cleaner to know that the students and the

parents who send their children to school are getting their bang for their buck

on those occasions.

If I may proceed to 3.1.04, School Supplies: Approximately a $400,000 decrease

over what was spent last year in Supplies.

MR. GARDINER:

Yeah, that's $350,000, Craig, that was put in the budget last year for a

purchase of social-emotional learning resources which is a one-time purchase.

MR. PARDY:

Good, Bob.

The Revenue, where would the Revenue be derived from?

MR. GARDINER:

Primarily, that Revenue would be the sale of textbooks down to LRDC. If someone

is looking for – right now, they're provided free to all students in the K-to-12

system but if it's a private school looking for some books or something to that

effect that they'd purchase.

MR. PARDY:

Good, thank you.

If I could move to 3.2.01, Curriculum Development. In the Estimates last year,

we talked about digitizing curriculum plans. I don't know if Eldred mentioned

that or not – you probably didn't.

Somebody mentioned about the digitizing because I think the conversation we had

last year I might have referenced that we had intermediate health curriculum

that we currently have, I mentioned that one. That was published in the late

90s. It talked about the year 2000 rolling in and what can you expect. It was

group activities related to it, but that textbook is still a resource that we

would have in our school system for intermediate health.

We also had the understanding last year that if you spend four or five years

developing curriculum, by the time you roll it out, it's already a little dated.

The only thing I would say is that the way to do it would be digitization of the

curriculum guide. I think it might have been mentioned last year that Alberta

was looking at that and we were – I trust your memory Eldred that you didn't –

MR. GARDINER:

Yes, Craig, last year, we did reference a project that Alberta were undertaking

in terms of curriculum development and an electronic system. Unfortunately,

Alberta, shortly after Estimates last year, actually put a stop to that

particular program. They kind of halted it.

That said, we're still moving forward and looking at the opportunities for

digitizing resources in particular. As you can appreciate, one of the stumbling

blocks, really, was resources in the hands of students and teachers alike. Of

course, digital learning is a big initiative, obviously, that we would like to

undertake and probably would've over the next five to 10 years.

Again, an opportunity as a result of COVID, now that every teacher will have

their own laptop and every student Grade 7 to 12 will have their own Chromebook,

the opportunity for digital learning, obviously, is significantly enhanced.

Now, in terms of textbooks and resources, we can automatically assume that every

student, 7 to 12 in particular, will have readily access to those type of

materials when we move in that direction. We've just moved it forward that much

quicker.

MR. PARDY:

Good.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you, Mr. Gardiner.

It's over to Mr. Dinn, please, to continue the questioning.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Just to pick up with the Chromebooks for students, and I ask this from a very

practical point of view of how it's going to work; I think of the usual process

of getting books back in at the end of the year that we would go through. Will

they be assigned a bar code? Will they be required to turn them in at the end of

the year? If they don't, what's the process then of getting them back?

MR. GARDINER:

Jim, yes, they'll all have a bar code and be inventoried appropriately, from an

asset management perspective. The school district has been developing and

actually has a draft of an end-user policy, whereby the student and the parent

will have to sign off. I'm not quite sure if they have to pass them back in. If

they're a returning student, will they have to pass them back in in June and

pick them up again in September: I don't know the answer to that.

MR. J. DINN:

No, and I ask that even from the point of view of just the workload or the

expectations on those in the school. I'm sure you're aware that even – and

certainly Mr. Pardy would be – maybe not at the primary and elementary level and

that, but I can tell you at the high school, that's a huge undertaking just to

keep track of them. It can affect whether a school gets a budget or not, the

number of books that are replaced. Something to look into. I appreciate the fact

that if the student is returning, then that would be within their possession

then for the following year.

Is there a plan at the end of this, realistically, that let's say a student

picks up this in Grade 10, in high school, at the end of Grade 12, would they –

look, you can keep this now at this point in time. It's probably at the end of

its life anyway, in many ways. Have you turned your attention towards any of

those questions yet, do you think?

MR. GARDINER:

That's certainly something that we haven't considered yet, getting five or six

years out of a Chromebook. I guess we'll have that discussion as that time

comes.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay and I'm just even thinking here how technology – it's easy enough for, I

think, OCIO to shut down, to block access to a computer; if it's not returned

that it couldn't be used if, indeed, that's the plan. However, after three or

four years I have no problem if it somehow becomes – through some arrangement

that the owner of it becomes the student himself or herself.

I guess the other thing is replacement. How is that going to proceed after this

as they get beat up and whatever else. Those are the things I'm hoping, as we

move forward, how we can deal with that.

3.1.01, Teaching Services: I noticed there that under Substitute Teachers -

Professional Development approximately $1.1 million was not used or not invested

in teachers in 2019-2020. If you look there they actually spent $1.27 million

less than what was budgeted for. Would that be related to the fact that the

school year was, sort of, brought to a bit of a halt last year or are there

other reasons?

MR. GARDINER:

That would be a combination of things. Partly, it would be that. Typically we'd

have, for example, some meetings scheduled towards the end of the fiscal year.

Keep in mind now it would have been only the last two or three weeks of the

fiscal year where the schools were closed. Uptake on educational leave was a

little bit reduced last year as well.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, perfect.

The next question on this would be the sources of revenue that are listed there.

In the 2019-2020 budget, I'm looking at $100,000 of revenue. It jumped

significantly, over half; it doubled again. I'm just wondering what the reason

was for that. Why did they double?

MR. GARDINER:

The short answer there, Jim, is this count is highly variable. Revenues

recovered from – oftentimes it's payroll overpayments, teacher salary

overpayments, and miscellaneous unit expenses repaid by school districts and

buildings from previous school years. Of course, that varies from year to year.

Basically, as things happen, we have to recoup some of the overpayments. That's

basically where that revenue comes from.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

The surplus then, that would have gone where after that? Would that have been

reinvested? That was just paying back.

MR. GARDINER:

Gone into general revenue.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, in general revenue. Perfect.

Okay, a few specific questions then with School Board Operations. I think you've

answered this one. Allowances and Assistance: That had to do with students who

receive bursaries?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. J. DINN:

I see only $12,000 of that was used. That's just simply a variable of –

MR. GARDINER:

Yeah, it's a demand program.

MR. J. DINN:

There was a source of revenue that was for $650,000 that was received last year.

Why is no revenue expected in this year? That's in the Revenue - Provincial line

under 3.1.02.

MR. GARDINER:

That follows up on one of the questions Mr. Pardy asked about the decrease in

$350,000 from the School Supplies for the social and emotional learning. That

revenue there, $350,000 of that was used for the social and emotional learning.

The other $300,000 actually was used for student assistant money.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay. I'm going to go back with some specific questions, if I may, Chair, with

regard to 3.1.01 under Teaching Services, regular increases. We talked a little

bit about the increase there of over $3.5 million. I'm just making sure: Would

TLAs be included in that budget? In Regular Teachers, that increase?

MR. GARDINER:

They are now. Initially, they weren't in Teaching Services because we weren't

sure where they were going to fall, but they are there now.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, perfect.

With regard to Substitute Teacher - Leave, certainly, any teacher who presents

with symptoms – or I know some teachers where their children at home now might

have to be tested for it. Considering the fact that a lot of younger teachers

have very limited sick leave compared to those who are teaching prior to 2006,

I'm just wondering here is there any intent – if a teacher has to take time off

to get tested.

It's not sick leave but they now meet that requirement where they must stay

home; they do that checklist and you must stay home. Is there a special leave

then for a teacher or staff in a school for that situation that would not come

out of their sick leave as such?

CHAIR:

The minister.

MR. OSBORNE:

Jim, I think that will probably be answered out of the grievance. Once the

grievance that the NLTA has put forward is resolved, those questions will be

answered.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

To that point, Minister, it's a source of concern for a lot of young teachers,

especially teachers with families and teachers who are also looking after, not

only young children but, sometimes, after aging parents, aging family members,

that sandwich generation. Is there any attempt to look at rapid testing – I know

there has been rapid testing that's been approved by Health Canada that would

cut down on the amount of time that teachers, staff and even students, for that

matter, would have to wait to self-isolate or to even wait for a test – to look

at employing them in the school system, to make that a priority?

MR. OSBORNE:

That's something that we'd rely on the advice of the chief medical officer of

health. Up to this point she had indicated there was little value in that. I

know the federal government has just approved a different testing model which

may allow for more rapid testing. Once we get the green light from the chief

medical officer of health that there is value, we'll look at that for sure.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

I'll suggest that would go a long way to certainly easing anxiety and probably

allow teachers and staff to return to work more quickly. Otherwise, it's going

to become a problem if they run out of that sick leave and now they're down to a

choice of taking a hit financially or to stay home.

That's about it for this section. I'll come back to it when –

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Dinn.

Mr. Pardy, for 10 minutes, please. I'll go to you and then we'll come back to

Mr. Lane.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

3.1.01 – if you've answered it, forgive me. The Employee Benefits, you're

talking about a significant amount that was actual. If you've already said it,

forgive me.

CHAIR:

Bob Gardiner.

MR. GARDINER:

No, Craig, I haven't answered that question yet. That's basically the early

severance payout for teachers as a result of the collective agreement.

MR. PARDY:

Good.

My understanding – and you may not be able to answer this because it is a school

board question –was that the last elections for the school board trustees cost

the taxpayers a little over half a million dollars, but it only tapped into

significantly less than 3 per cent of the population in Newfoundland and

Labrador. I would hope that, without an answer, if that is the case, then we

come up with something a little different than that process, even though I know

the merits of having people directly selecting the members. But with that low

percentage then you just can't run that again if that is the outcome. I don't

speak with accuracy. The only thing I know is if that is the case it's worthy of

investigation to find out as to what would happen.

The other thing was I represent 14 schools in Zone 11, not 14 because 10 serve

the District of Bonavista, but there are 14 in Zone 11. When I first entered the

House last year I was requesting for a representative on the board to be

appointed. Keep in mind when we did the Estimates last year to now, there is

still nobody sitting in that position. I don't say that we wanted an election;

we just need someone appointed to represent the schools that would be in the

region.

Just for the record, and no question necessary there, if –

MR. OSBORNE:

There have been two appointments recently, Craig.

MR. PARDY:

In the two vacancies?

MR. OSBORNE:

Yeah.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good. That's good.

Back into Curriculum Development. I had someone express their dismay to me and

the way it went was that this educator had thought that there was an erosion in

Newfoundland history, Canadian history; World War I, World War II not covered.

The Newfoundland Studies, I would assume, covers those. They exist but only

serve small numbers.

I know the logistics of the high school programming and people with course loads

and all that, but would that be correct that those areas aren't covered or is it

just a matter of the breadth of which they are covered? I'm assuming they are

still within the curriculum.

MR. GARDINER:

They certainly would be, yes.

MR. PARDY:

They certainly are?

MR. GARDINER:

Absolutely.

MR. PARDY:

Fantastic. But the breadth may not be the same or the extent, conceivably.

MR. GARDINER:

Again, it would depend on the course that you did. Because there used to be

geography and history, now it's just a combined social studies course. It would

depend on which courses you actually did, but it's still certainly covered

throughout the high school curriculum.

MR. PARDY:

Bob, World War I and World War II would certainly be there.

MR. GARDINER:

Absolutely.

MR. PARDY:

Absolutely, good stuff.

In 3.2.02 in the Language Programs, Grants and Subsidies: More was spent last

year than was budgeted, a significant amount.

MR. GARDINER:

Craig, that would be additional expenses related to the Canada-Newfoundland and

Labrador Agreement on Minority-Language Education and Second Official-Language

Instruction. Oftentimes what happens there is the flow of money from the federal

government, so when we get it and when it's expended, there are some

fluctuations.

MR. PARDY:

We're talking about the curriculum, Curriculum Development, in Operating

Accounts, $50,000 less spent compared to what was budgeted. We talked about the

importance of Curriculum Development; I just wanted to throw out the $50,000 and

why that would occur, and that would be …?

MR. GARDINER:

Again, that's part of the restatement part. If you look at $271,700 for

Transportation and Communication, just for argument's sake, and we only spent

$175,000, this is one of the budget lines where the communications part of that

budget would have been moved over to the earlier part of the book. The

expenditures certainly are reduced – are here, but they're not reflected there.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

If I may move to 3.3.01, Student Support Services. I'm assuming this is year

three of the new special education policy. If it is year three, I'm assuming it

would be fully implemented this current year. Or was it last year?

MR. GARDINER:

No, this would be year three, so phase three. This year it would be implemented

in all K-to-6 schools and then it would, over the next year or so, move into 7

to 12. But the target audience initially for the Responsive Teaching and

Learning Policy would have been K to 6, in terms of the implementation of the

Education Action Plan.

MR. PARDY:

Would we find a program specialist now listed under Student Support Services or

would they be under another heading, the responsive teaching or …? If we looked

in Student Support Services now and find that there's no student program

specialist, would that be accurate?

MR. GARDINER:

No, the program specialist budget line for Student Support Services would be in

the Teaching Services, so it wouldn't necessarily be here.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

But we do have program specialists in the department?

MR. GARDINER:

Absolutely.

MR. PARDY:

Is it two, Bob?

MR. GARDINER:

Oh, jeez, no, there's –

MR. PARDY:

Two permanent with others seconded, maybe? Conceivably?

MR. GARDINER:

Anyone know?

There is at least seven or eight, Craig.

MR. PARDY:

No, that's good. No need to need to find that.

MR. GARDINER:

It's a separate division within Programs and Services. There are probably eight

or 10.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good stuff.

MR. GARDINER:

Craig, just for clarity, in terms of where they show up, oftentimes a seconded

teacher, while they may not show up in the human resource data because they're

charged to Teaching Services, they are still permanent and full-time employees.

We may actually have eight or 10 on the books, but if you look at HR data, it

might only show two. It's because they are paid from Teaching Services.

MR. PARDY:

Okay. That's where I probably saw it, in the HR.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. PARDY:

That's why it stood out. The two seemed mighty thin.

MR. GARDINER:

Right. For example, in Curriculum Development, I think if you look at HR there

might be four or five and there are probably 17 or 18.

MR. PARDY:

So, Bob, because they're in Teaching Services, they would be in that ratio for

Stats Canada?

MR. GARDINER:

Not the one I used this morning.

MR. PARDY:

Oh, you're good.

3.3.02, APSEA?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. PARDY:

How many hearing impaired avail of this service? Are there any? I know that in

our school we had visually impaired that availed of the service and they

provided a great service for them. But in the hearing impaired?

MR. GARDINER:

That's a really good question, Craig. Up until recently, I would say within the

last 12 months, the province really didn't avail of much services from APSEA

with respect to deaf and hard of hearing. That's been historical for a number of

different reasons. That said, that's reflected in the amount of money we pay

APSEA. Unlike the Council of Atlantic Ministers of Education and Training, where

it's an equal partnership – I'll use that word – and it's a per capita revenue,

APSEA is based on the services that are provided.

Again, we've made significant strides, as I mentioned before, over the past 18

months in engaging APSEA in providing some services to our province. They've

done professional learning with the DHH itinerants. They actually started some

assessments with students now in the province. Some of our students will

actually take advantage of some of the short camps that APSEA actually provides.

MR. PARDY:

You mentioned last year in the Estimates that you were going to meet with the

director, I think, of APSEA – was coming down, I think you along with the school

districts – the goal of having better utilization.

MR. GARDINER:

That has happened and APSEA is represented on the deaf and hard of hearing

working group, as well.

MR. PARDY:

Good stuff.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Going back to 3.1.02, with regard to the student assistant hours under the

Grants and Subsidies, I'm just wondering how many additional student assistant

hours is targeted with the money. What are we looking at here? The total number

of student assistants, I think it is budgeted $24 million.

MR. GARDINER:

Jim, the total budget, as you can see, is $24,136,600. I don't have the total

number of hours off the top of my head, but if you want to do some quick math, I

think the hourly rate is – and, again, it depends on what level people are at,

but it's probably $28, $29, $30 an hour, so you can figure out the number of

hours from that. It's variable; it depends on the salary.

MR. J. DINN:

Is it possible to get those numbers? If you had them off the top of your head,

I'd be very impressed; but if you can get those it would be great.

With the School Board Operations, I just want to take a quick diversion here

into the independent schools in relation to COVID-19 measures. Has there been

any conversation with the two independent schools, at least within the city or

throughout the province as well, with regard to the needs that they have in

relation to COVID-19 and the measures and the resources that they need?

MR. GARDINER:

No, those would be private schools that we would not be funding.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay. I ask that from a question – because I did meet them and I have one in my

district. One of the things they said, at least when it comes to – since we're

all in this together, COVID-19, the whole notion of at least trying to make sure

they have access to the cleaning supplies; maybe, if we buy it in quantity, that

they would be able to access it that way. Because if that school is safe, we're

all safe as well, they're all contributing, so an idea.

The francophone school: I notice in the budget I think it was $2.5 million

allocated to develop the site of a new francophone school. I know there was some

push that they were looking at having it out in Galway. Is there any update as

to what that money is being used for and where they're going with it? I'm just

wondering what that amount – I just noticed it in the budget. It was an

interesting one.

MR. GARDINER:

My understanding, Jim, is that there's $2.7 million in the budget this year for

the francophone school district. That would be a question that's better answered

by Transportation and Infrastructure, who hold that file in terms of school

construction.

MR. J. DINN:

Good enough.

Moving on, with regard to under School Board I guess, since they would also deal

with the transportation of schoolchildren, I'm just looking at here at the

busing contractors and cleaning of the buses. Any indication or any feedback as

to the logistics of that, whether they're finding it difficult to keep the buses

clean and maintain the routes? Any thought then to maybe having monitors on

board who would take care of that as well?

MR. GARDINER:

We haven't heard anything in terms of any challenges that it's presented.

MR. J. DINN:

With the School Board Operations is there also – and I don't know if I brought

this up or not; it seems like I have but I'm sure I haven't. With regard to

disinfectant fogging machines, is there any attempt – I know that we use them

here in the House of Assembly now. I know the Independent School does use it in

my district. It's provided one for its cleaning staff. I know a number of the

post-secondary private colleges also have it.

Is there any consideration, considering the large surface area and the number of

students, especially in larger schools, to at least purchase these for the

cleaning staff or provide funding to the district so that they can keep the

schools clean as part of their protocol?

MR. GARDINER:

As I mentioned before, the funding has been provided to the school district for

custodians and cleaning. Now, how they spend that money, in terms of whether it

is aerosol sprayers or other types of cleaners, it's certainly something they

can speak to.

MR. J. DINN:

If they came back and said we can't afford this but we think it's necessary, is

that something then that the government would be willing to consider to support?

MR. GARDINER:

We'd obviously consider any request from the district.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

The five new Public Health nurses – and I know this might be better under

Health, but I'm just wondering because this is part of the plan of Safe Return

to School, of how they're being deployed or how they're working to help the

schools. A part of the concern I know over the years was that the duties of the

Public Health nurses have expanded to take on more duties and they have less

time to devote to schools.

I'm just wondering where these five nurses are and how they're being deployed in

relation to the schools?

MR. GARDINER:

So you're right, that's a question best answered by Health and Community

Services. They will be, to my knowledge, employed by the regional health

authorities. That's to be confirmed but, again, Health and Community Services

can certainly confirm that.

I do know that the regional health authorities have reached out to the school

district, various regional offices and started a conversation in terms of a plan

and in terms of deployment of those Public Health resources within the schools.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay and was there any consideration as to how the number, five, was chosen, in

terms of needs I'm looking at here. I ask this from the point of view of one

school counsellor I was speaking to trying to get a nurse right now. Even now

with the extra units, what they're being told is we just don't have the time.

I'm just trying to get an idea of how that number was selected, that number of

nurses.

MR. GARDINER:

That was done basically to address the region-by-region perspective. Given that

Eastern would be so big we would anticipate two in Eastern, one in Central, one

in Western and one in Labrador.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, I'll probably come back to that, whether now or later on, but I'm just

thinking whether five is an adequate number, considering the geography of this

province and the concentration of the population.

MR. GARDINER:

I agree but you need to keep in mind now that's five, in addition to what

would've already been in place.

MR. J. DINN:

I appreciate that but I think also the fact is that certainly in my own career,

the presence of the school nurse certainly decreased significantly, even to the

point where basic things such as inoculations and checking for head lice became

the duty of the school staff and not the nurse itself.

OHS resources for the school district: There is an amount budgeted for OHS in

resources in the Safe Return to School. I'm just trying to figure out what these

resources are and how is the amount allocated. I'm just looking at what that

will look like on the ground in our schools when it looks at the additional OHS

resources. Is that for extra meetings or what?

MR. GARDINER:

That would certainly be something that the school district could speak to. We

provided them an extra $350,000 to ensure adequate occupational health and

safety requirements were met. That's something that they would be able to speak

to.

MR. J. DINN:

I notice in certain – it has to do with plexiglass barriers right now. I know

that I think it's one of the First Nations in Northern Saskatchewan; they

actually employed plexiglass barriers for all teachers. I'm just wondering,

considering the nature of teaching, especially the one-on-one aspect of it – and

I know that there are a number of teachers who had respiratory problems

pre-COVID – has the department or the district looked at providing plexiglass

for teachers in schools so that they can engage in that one-to-one personalized

learning, where needed, as a precautionary approach.

MR. OSBORNE:

Jim, for the itinerant teachers there are plexiglass barriers provided within

the schools that they can use, if they're going from school to school. For

teachers who are immunocompromised, they have been encouraged to apply for those

District and the administrator within the school and a determination made as to

whether those would be supplied.

barriers; we've had discussions with the chief medical officer of health. The

use of face masks in normal face-to-face – the same as you and I speaking here

in the Legislature. For normal in-class instruction, if there are no

immunocompromised issues and so on, face masks are considered to be acceptable.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Minister.

I guess the conversations that we might have here are probably going to be a

little bit different than if I'm sitting at eye level to a student at the desk,

sometimes having more than five-minute conversations. What I'm gathering is that

there is some attempt here to at least recognize that teachers may need to have

– and they may not be immunocompromised but they may very well be of a certain

age where they're in a risk category or overweight and so on and so forth.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you, Mr. Dinn, for now.

Mr. Lane, please.

MR. LANE:

Yes, I just had a couple of quick questions.

On the curriculum side of things, I'm just wondering are we – and this is a

quick yes or no. I don't know if we're doing it or not. These are some things

that have come up in recent years. They were talked about; I don't know if they

happened.

Are we doing anything in our schools in terms of civics for students,

understanding different levels of government, how to vote, what different levels

do and this kind of stuff?

MR. GARDINER:

Mr. Lane, yes, that would be something that would be covered off in various

aspects of the social studies curriculum right throughout K to 12. That is also

something that's being interwoven in the new career course. Part of that would

be financial literacy, as well as civics, in the new course that's being

introduced in high school next year.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

I guess that answers my second question because I was going to ask about money

management and so on. So financial literacy, that's good. Excellent.

The last question about curriculum: Is there anything – I know zero about this

but coding. I hear talks about the need – as we move forward, that coding is

going to be an important thing. I have no idea what it even looks like, to be

honest with you.

Obviously, it's what makes computer programs work, but there's some talk that

should be happening at a younger age to get kids introduced to that because it's

going to be part of the future. Is that something that's being looked at?

MR. GARDINER:

That's something that's more than just being looked at; that's something that's

being done. Coding shows up throughout the curriculum in various places, in

particular in the intermediate and high school.

Just a couple of years ago we entered a partnership with Brilliant Labs, which

is a New Brunswick company. They have a significant footprint in the province

right now and, again, a big emphasis on K to 6, but they also spill into the

intermediate programming as well. I think the last number I saw they were into

70 per cent of the schools in the province. They actually have a site set up

here now on Strawberry Marsh Road in the district school that schools can

actually visit. But significant footprint in the province in terms of Brilliant

Labs. Also, The Learning Partnership has a coding program that we also partner

with them on as well. But Brilliant Labs would be, certainly, the biggest

footprint in the province for coding.

MR. LANE:

Okay, that's good to hear.

I just wanted to make a quick comment, as well, that I absolutely support the

notion that my colleague – well, both of my colleagues actually raised about

this buffer that's created by school boards. When you look at where we're to

financially in this province, up to our neck in debt, we need to find ways of

being more efficient and perhaps some of those resources, in addition to that,

could be put into having better student-teacher ratios and so on. I just wanted

to say I support that notion as we do our review. The Minister of Finance has

said that there are going to be more efforts in the next budget to look at

things we can do to create efficiencies, and I would support that notion.

A quick question back on the busing. I'm just wondering: Has the issue of

courtesy seating now been addressed? Because I've heard from some parents that

they haven't heard anything on the courtesy seats.

MR. OSBORNE:

The school administrators have the ability to assign courtesy seating once all

eligible students have been looked after. As we know, it was last week before

the final school got the busing for eligible students. Courtesy seating has been

in the process of being assigned as schools got eligible students looked after.

So it's still in process as schools are being resolved.

MR. LANE:

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm just wondering, this goes right to 3.6.01, does it not, or …?

CHAIR:

That's correct.

MR. LANE:

So the child care, daycares would be under this?

CHAIR:

Yes.

MR. LANE:

Yeah. A couple of quick questions.

I'm just wondering, the $25-a-day child care, first question, as some people

have asked: Why is it universal and that there is no means test? Basically

somebody could be a millionaire, so to speak, and get subsidized daycare for

their children.

MR. OSBORNE:

There's no means test for K to 12 either.

MR. LANE:

Okay, fair enough. It's an answer. It's been asked.

How is the $25 a day going to work? Does the government pay the daycare? Do the

parents pay the daycare $25 and then the daycare has to depend on the government

to get the rest of the money? How is that going to work?

MR. OSBORNE:

The amount charged to parents will be reduced through the Operating Grant

Program. So 70 per cent of regulated daycares right now operate under the

Operating Grant Program, they receive a subsidy and the subsidy will be

increased.

MR. LANE:

Okay. The parents would pay $25 to the daycare and the daycare would get the

rest of the money from the government.

MR. OSBORNE:

Yes.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

I guess the last question or concern under daycare. I've heard from a couple of

operators in my district, for sure, that there are a number of non-regulated

daycares, people operating out of their homes and so on. That's an option for a

lot of families because a lot of times they tend to be more flexible in terms of

right next door in the neighbourhood, picking the kids up for school, walking

them to school, stuff that a regular daycare is n