Manitoba Hansard — 22 March 1972 (Sitting 15, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-15

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, March 22, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GU ESTS 289 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the Hon ourable Members to the gallery, where we have 90 students of Grade Six standing of the Athlone School. These students are under the direction of Messrs. Voth and Groff and Mesdames Paterson and Baydak. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. On behalf of all the Honourable Menhers of the Legislative Assembly I wel come you. MR.

SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions, Reading and Receiving Petitions, Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees, MiniSterial Statements, --(Interjection)- sorry, the Honourable Member for lnkster. TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Special Committee on Rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements, oh sorry. MR. CLERK: Your Special Committee appointed to examine and review, effect and enforcement ••• MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR.

GREEN: I beg to move, seconded by the Honrurl'ble the Member for Wellington, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker, just before there commences what may be a debate, I want to advise members that I have another motion to make upon which it would probably be more appropriate to discuss the iss.ue. MR. SPEAKER: Are youready for the question? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Churchill, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, with leave, I would urge the Honourable Member to make that motion<>n the next motion so we could_get it in.�ell then we will vote against you I h�pe. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour and Railway Commissioner etc.) (Transcona): We will, Mr. Speaker, vote against him._ - MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? Oh, I'd better put the motion. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wellington, that the reports of the - if the Member for Rhineland will listen, he will be able to have his fun on this motion - that the report of the Special Committee of the Legislature ap pointed to examine and review the application, effect and enforcement of the amendments to the Rules and Standing Orders of the Assembly, adopted on Thursday, JUne 10, 1971 be referred to the Committee of the Whole House and thence reported to the House for final adoption. Seconded by the Member for Wellington. !vffi . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre •. MR. J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think the record will show that we did not dispense with the motion to receive the report, we voted down the adjournment, but we didn't vote on the reception of the report. MR. SPEAKER: I am thankful to the Honourable Member for reminding me. We will revert to the adoption of the presentation of the report. Are all honourable members clear? Are you ready for the question? MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER·: Now I shall proceed to the other motion. MR. GREEN: ... debatable I would hope that we would have our debates when we come into Committee of the Whole House, when every member will be able to not only rise to speak,

290 March 22, 1972 (ME. GREEN cont'd) •••.• but sit down and speak again. If the honourable member wishes to adjourn this motion, I take it that we won't object to it but there will be full opportunity to debate in the Committee of the Whole House. MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris, MR. WARNER, H, JORGENSON (Morris): I think it would be the wish of members of the official opposition that debate be concluded on this particular motion, so that this report can get in to the Committee of the Whole House.

By doing that we permit ourselves the opportunity of examining that report at the earliest opportunity, so that we can base our debate and our re marks on the contents of the report itself, which we can't do unless that report is in our hands. So we would be agreeable to allow this to go to a vote at this time, and hopefully that the report can be received so that we can get it into the committee as soon as possible for proper debate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. P A ULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I assure my honourable friend the Member for Morris that copies of the report are available, will be distributed to every member of the House almost immediately and I think that, Mr. Speaker, would give a satisfactory reply to my hon ourable friend from Morris and I trust and hope that even my honourable friend from Rhineland will be satisfied. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, HON. LEONARD S.

EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce)(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, under the item Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports, I would like to table the Annual Report for the year ending March 31, 1971 of the Manitoba Department of Industry and Commerce, including the Manitoba Design Institute, Manitoba Export Corporation and the Manitoba Research Council. And while I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to provide the House with a brief statement regarding the spring flood outlook on the Souris River in Manitoba, prepared by the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management in consultation with the Saskatchewan Water Resources Commission, the Fargo Office of the United States National Weather Service and United States Fish and Wildlife Service. Runoff in the Saskatchewan and North Dakota portions of the basin is reported to be well advanced. However, significant snow cover remains in the Moose and the Turtle Mountains.

Based on average temperatures and precipitation during the remainder of the spring runoff period, flooding of valley lands from the International Boundary to Hartney is expected, Spring peak flows are expected to be higher than those experienced in 1971, but lower than 1970 peak flows. Bank flow stages are expected to be exceeded in the Coulter area within the next few days and in the Lauder area during the last week of March. Peak stages are expected near mid-April. Above normal precipitation, I am advised, during the next month could give rise to greater flooding with resultant delayed spring peaks. Mr.

Speaker, I will provide further reports to the members of the House should condi tions change on the Souris River. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable :Minister of To�ism�d Recreation. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs)(St, Boniface): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the following report, It is the Report of the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, Aprillst, 170 to March 31st, 1971, including the Auditor's Report for the fiscal year ending March 31, '71; the Report of the Manitoba Centennial Citizens Campaign, fiscal year ended March 31, '71; Report of the Manitoba Centen nial Corporation, the Auditors Report for the year ending March 31, 1971; and finally the Sixth Annual Report of the Horse Racing Commission year ending December 31, 1971. MR. SPEAKER: Any further Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports?

The Honourable Minister of Labour, MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the calendar year 1971, Department of Labour. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion, Introduction of Bills, Oral Questions. The Hon ourable Member for Riel.

March 22, 19 72 291 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Acting Minister of Mi nes and Resources. Can he advise the House as to the validity of the statement by the Chairman of the Manitoba Water Commission re the suppression of informa tion by Manitoba Hydro on the 714 level? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SClffi EYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I am in a position to answer that question, having spoken to the chairman of the Water Commission earlier today.

I can advise my honourable friend, when he asks as to the validity of the statement, that the statement is in fact invalid, the chairman of the Water Commission advised me that the report was taken out of context to the remarks which he made and that in fact in the Crippen Report there are references made to the various total systems costs, discounted to present value as between regulation of Lake Winnipeg at 714 or 715 feet, taken in conjunction with Churchill River Diversion and not taken in conjunction with Churchill River Diversion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, if I might add a supplementary, just to be more specific, the report quotes him as saying that there is $26 million diff erence. Does this also come from the CrippenReport or was it stated by Mr. Cass Booy. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, no one, I believe no one has ever disputed the fact that if one takes the total systems' cost of Lake Winnipeg regulation at various levels of regula tion, that the costs are impinged upon on the basis of whether or not there is Churchill River Diversion, that is included in the calculation. No one is disputing that fact. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary.

In light of these facts, will .it be possible for the Public Utilities Natural Resources Committee to have Mr. Cass Booy speak to them, address them and be open for questioning? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, as the Honourable Member is aware the chair man of this Commission reports to the Minister who reports to the House. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Honourable Member for Thompson asked me a question on censorship of film and I wish to inform the House at this time that I've been in touch with the Department of the Attorney-General to voice my concern that the existing law should be enforced. I was promised full co-operation and assured that there will be more frequent spot check-up of theatres where such restricted movies are shown. It is hoped that those allowing minors to enter these theatres will be dealt with severely, and it could be that suspension of their license could be considered also.

Also, once more advise the members of the Censor Board that they should be guided and directed by the present Act and that it is not their role to anticipate any change in the Act. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): I would like to direct a question then to the Minister in charge of censorship. I wonder if the obscene show that the Member for Thompson referred to would be the one advertised for the Riel Auditorium on Thursday, starring Green and Desjardins. MR. SPEAKER: Order, The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. Did the government host a dinner March 18th in Dauphin for the Lions Club District Convention which includes Manitoba, Northwestern Ontario and Northern Minnesota? MR: SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, Pll have to endeavour to give the answer to my honourable friend at a later date, I haven't the answer at this time. MR, MOUG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to know if this convention would be considered more important than the Dominion Playdowns in Charleswood? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A, BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Highways. I am sorry I didn't give him notice but I wonder if the Minister could tell this House what the expenditure, or the payout, of nearly $80, 000 to the Associated Winnipeg Taxis was for? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation.

292 March 22, 19 72 HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways)(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the Honour able Member said he did not give me notice of the question. Therefore I will take that as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable First Minister. In the Public Accounts on Page 6, there is an amount of $19, 000 that has been paid or shown as paid to Mr. L. Orlikow for Planning and Priorities, My question is, what were his functions and is the $19, 000 in addition to the amount that he receives as a Deputy Minister?

MR. SPEAKER: .The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I can take that question as notice, although properly a question of that kind could be dealt with, I'd suggest, in one of two ways -either it could be filed as an Order for Return, or it could be dealt with when the Committee on Public Accounts meets. I would suggest to my honourable friend that he explore either of the two options and satisfy himself as to which one he would like to take. So then having said that, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw my offer to take it as notice now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON.

SAUL CHERNIAK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, on Thursday, March 16th the Honourable Member for Rhineland asked for an interim statement up to the end of the calendar year 1971, I have had my staff prepare a statement which shows revenues and expenditures by departments for the nine month period ending December 31, 1971, and I would stress, as I have done in the past that this is an interim statement and is subject to possible adjustment prior to the fiscal year end. I will table the statements and the Clerk will distribute oopies to each member. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health & Social Development)(Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to reply to a question posed by the Honourable Member for Churchill, last week, regarding assistance to released residents of The Pas Correctional Institution. Residents are provided with transportation to home, or similar distance within the province if they request an alternate location after release. Transportation may be by bus, train or air, as the occasion demands.

Where there is need for a break in the journey because of a delay in flights, arrangements have been made with local hotel keepers to provide accommodation and charge oost to the province. Where a released resident may wish to seek work in The Pas, following release, he is permitted to do so, and is still able to secure transportation up to one week after discharge. Other men are eligible for employment on day paroles or temporary absence for vary ing lengths of time.

Where a person wishes to seek employment within two weeks prior to dis charge he is able to do so for a temporary absence leave to seek employment and if he is with out funds an allowance of up to $10. 00 is granted to cover such items as transportation. In some special case where transportation is required to very remote areas, arrangements are made with the Department of Indian Affairs. Where necessary, clothing is provided for release residents in accordance with the needs of the weather, or work, if such has been found prior to release.

And a final point, M:r:.Speaker, to answer the question of the Honourable Member for Churchill, where welfare is necessary, the release resident is provided with the necessary information and referral. MR. SPEAKER: Th3 Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. BEARD: Is there records then of any refusals of paying for meals or accommoda tions for prisoners that have been let out of The Pas; and secondly, is this a policy that's just been brought in? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, this is existing policy that has been policy of the Depart ment of Health and Social Development for some time. I can't give the exact date of the imple mentation of the policy. The residents that do leave the institution itself are followed --there is a follow-through. I would like to have names so I could give the information needed to the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside, MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): I listened to the Honourable the Minister of Finance. I wonder if he could indicate to us whether or not it' is his intention to table supplementary

293 March 22, 1972 (MR. ENNS cont'd). . . . . estimates within the next little while, or if he has in fact a date for tabling additional suppl ementary estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: No, I have not a date set for that and I'm not really sure that I will be pl anni ng any. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Cul tural Affai rs. Will the Minister not tell the House why he is not enforcing the law in regard to obsolete films. -- (Interjection) -- MR.

SPEAKER: Order, pl ease. The question is out of order since it's referred to the wrong Minister; enforcement is not the Cultural Affairs Minister' s area. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I apologize. I don't mean obsolete, I mean obscene films. MR. SPEAKER: My rul ing still stands. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honour_able the House Leader. We are now well on into the Session, second week-- can he indicate when some legislation will be coming. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: The answer is contained in the Orders of the Day, Mr.

Speaker, if my honourable friend will take a look at them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. JOSEPH P, BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, my question arises as a result of the answer the Minister of Health just gave us. Would he indicate what is the maximum number of days that his department will pay for a hotel room for released prisoners. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. TOUPIN: Well actually, Mr. Speaker, I can't answer that question right off hand. I'll take the question as notice and try to provide a suitable answer. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, obviously I directed my question to the wrong Minister and with your permission I'll direct it to the proper Minister, and that is to the Attorney-General. Will the Attorney-General tell the House as to why he is not enforcing the law in regard to obscene films. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. HON. A. H. MACKLING, Q, C. (Attorney-General) (St. James): Well, Mr. Speaker, in answer to the question, the honourable member and other members of the House will know a -charge was laid against a film in Winnipeg not too long ago.

It was the first time, I think, in the history of the province that a charge was laid, alleging that a motion film was obscene. I think the results of the hearing before the magistrate are well known. This department is considering the results of that decision to determine what further course of proceedings is necessary, if any. The suggestion that we are not enforcing the laws in Canada, I deny.

As the honourable member can appreciate, however, this department or the Department of Government acts upon complaint and when complaints have been received, they are investigated and where the officers of the Crown are satisfied that there is a prima facie case to take before the courts, that pro- cedure is followed. - MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR, BILTON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I appreciate the opinion given by the Attorney-General but he knows as well as I do . . . MR, SPEAKER: Order, please. MR.

BILTON: My question is this: Does anything go until the new regulations or the suggestion that he's anticipating are completed? Does anything go from now on? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I think I've indicated that the law of Canada has not been changed in respect to obscenity since we were elected to office. I am sure that there have been instances where there have been investigations made in the past and no prosecutions made. I would indicate, Mr. Speaker, that there has been no change in procedure whatsoever in my department. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Swan River, a supplementary.

294 March 22, 1972 MR. BILTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, Would the Attorney-General not suggest that in the recent 18 months or two years the type of films that the people of Manitoba have .•. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. The honourable member is debating the point, not asking a question. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. CY GONICK ( Crescentwood): ... question for the First Minister regarding South Indian Lake again. Has there been any study or any new facts which would contradict the Underwood McLellan Report,

Chapter 6, which says that regardless of the level of flooding there would be substantial reduction of fish productivity on South Indian Lake and a need for a relocation of the Indian communities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that particular reference that the honourable member is referring to is judgmental and there have been studies of course which bring forward judgmental views to the contrary. MR. GONICK: A supplementary then. Would these subsequent reports or studies be tabled in the House? MR. SCHREYER: To the extent this is possible, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. ' MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Could the Minister indicate to the House if additional funds will be provided to the provincial job office program for old age pensioner housing improvements. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, the question is based upon an assumption. If same is the case, an announcement to that effect will be indicated at the proper time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, yester day someone put a question to me on the Resource Conservation Act and when it was proclaimed. I simply want to indicate to the House that it didn•t require proclamation in that it received Royal Assent. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a further question to the Honourable the Minister of Finance.

In the Estimates tabled yesterday, can the Minister indicate, was there any provi sion for aid or money set aside for aid to private and parochial schools, and if so, the amount? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I believe that question to oo an improper question, We will be debating estimates but since it was asked, and I think asked for a reason, I should say no, not to my knowledge is there any money in the Estimates provided.

When I say not to my knowledge, if there were, I think I'd be aware of it as a member of and former chairman of Cabinet Management Committee, and I would say that it is a regular program of the Department of Education, there is no special provision such as is suggested or imputed by the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Finance. When does he plan on introducing the Capital Supply estimates? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Pm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I responded too quickly.

The answer is as soon as I am ready. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have the indulgence of the House at this time to point out a matter of procedure. I guess, first of all, Mr. Speaker, I should have the consent of the House to raise the point that I think is of great interest to the conduct of . . . MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed that the Minister of Labour raise a point of order procedure? (Agreed)

March 22, 1972 295 MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday evening, the Honourable the Minister of Finance proposed a formal motion at the conclusion of the address to His Honour, that this House would at its next sitting resolve itself into a Committee of Supply to consider the supply to be granted to Her Majesty, and as that motion was adjourned by the Honourable the Member for Lakeside, I must apoligize to the House as its House Leader, that I was �ot certain at that particular time of whether or not the motion to adjourn by my honourable friend from Lakeside was a proper one, or whether it had been used before, or whether Jhere was any provision made.

On reflection afterwards, in all the years that I have been in the House, it may be few or many, I had never heard of the motion to consider going into the Committee of Supply at its next sitting having been adjourned or even debated, because normally the debate takes place on the formal resolution that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair to go into the Committee of Supply, rather than in just a notice that at our next sitting this will be done. Now I raise this Mr.

Speaker, at this time -- the House is in possession of the adjourn ment of my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside, but I raise it because I think it would. be advisable for us not to establish a precedent of this nature for the future. I do not want to at this particular time because the motion was accepted to preclude my honourable friend from making a contribution if it's so desired. But I do in all sincerity, Mr.

Speaker, suggest, that this be not considered a precedent, and I refer to Ma:YB 16th Edition dealing with the matter of the appointment of Committees of the Whole House and the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means, and Mays says on Page 695, dealing with the Committee of Supply and Ways and Means, these committees are pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 appointed at the beginning of every session as soon as the Queen's Speech has been answered by an address, as the appointment of these committees is according to ancient usage, the common response to the Royal demand for supply implied in the speech, the Queen's recommendation of the appointment of these committees has never been considered necessary.

The formula used for the appointing of the Committee of Supply is that this House will (tomorrow) resolve itself into committee to con sider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. I raise this Mr. Speaker, not in a desire to curtail debate with my honourable friend, but to point out that ancient usages and custom in my opinion preclude really the acceptance of the motion to adjourn at that particular stage in order that the supply to be granted to Her Majesty is not contingent on further debate except where we get into going into the formal motion of the Committee of Supply. And also, Mr.

Speaker, if we would refer to our own rule book where there isn't any formal rule in the House, the usages and customs of Ottawa prevail and that was at one ti:ine, the usage at Ottawa, since been changed because the Committee of Supply, as I understand it now, is broken up into several different committees rather than the Committee of the Whole, so therefore we go to the usage and custom of the mother of parliaments. I raise that, Mr. Speaker, and I would welcome, I'm sure you would too, any further comment on the point that I'm raising. I want to emphasize, there's no desire on my

part in my present position to cur tail the right of my honourable friend from Lakeside to speak. MR, SPEAKER: What is the will and pleasure of the House in regards to this subject matter raised by the . . . The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, we've listened with care to the argument and position put forward by the Honourable House Leader. We tend to concur that his position is correct in recollection of past performances.

I must also admit that I can't recall the motion being ad journed at that particular juncture as it was adjourned last night, and I would certainly concur and agree that this should not be allowed to set a precedent in this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, then, and I thank the co-operation of my honourable friend. How it will be dealt with when the motion comes before the paper, possibly my honourable friend could suggest withdrawal by unanimous consent, and that being given then we're not into a bind.

May I suggest for the balance of today that we go through Orders for Return, have them formally presented, because I believe that is -- if that is the desire of the House -- because that is in order of the Order Paper established; we then go to the second readings of the bills that have been printed and distributed; we then consider resolving this matter that I referred to a moment ago, Mr. Speaker. And then I would like to suggest if agreement is reached, because we• re not going into Committee of Supply this afternoon, that the House adjourn after

March 22, 1972 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ... .. the disposition of that amendment and not go into Private Members' resolutions. If the House adjourns at that particular time, Mr. Speaker, rather than any of the Private Members' Resolutions being allowed to stand it will not upset the order of the Private Members• Resolutions. Members will be aware, Mr. Speaker, that under our present rule that if you don't proceed with a motion it goes to the bottom of the Order Paper.

My suggestion merely is that if we donit get into the matter of Private Members' Resolutions there is no upsetting of the Order Paper at this stage in the proceedings of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: That procedure is quite agreeable to us with one exception. I think there is a matter that has to be dealt with prior to our going into the daily routine of the order of business, that's the question of privilege that was raised last night. And I think that this is the proper opportunity now to deal with that particular thing. Mr.

Speaker, you will recall that this morning we had the opportunity of listening to the tapes of the debate that was held in this House a few days ago, and I think that this should be dealt with at this time. MR. SPEAKER: Well, in reference to that matter, I had intended making a statement after I had consulted authorities and checked with Beauchesnes and the other authorities that are involved, and consequently I wasn't in any particular hurry to make a fast decision. There was a matter of a charge having been made, and I wanted to consider it weightily before I made any kind of a statement to the House.

In regard to the matter of privilege, I should like to say, this has been occasioned on a number of times, and unfortunately arises because members dispute what is inferred, or what is said by another member who is debating, and I think that these references to matters of privilege should really be points of order and statements of clarification, instead of always being matters of privilege, and actually there is no matter of privilege before the House except for the charge which was made which I shall deal with in a statement at a future time. Does that satisfy the House: -- (Interjection)-- May we then proceed.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Well, Mr. Speaker, I naturally abide by your ruling, but I would say that my understanding is that there is a responsibility incumbent upon me to respond to a point of privilege raised by the Attorney-General and directed towards me, and I am prepared to do that, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: One other thing, Mr. Speaker. I think that this particular question of privilege raises perhaps something a little bit broader than the-narrow question of privilege that was just raised in this House yesterday.

And I wonder, Sir, with all deference, if you would care to hear some comment on that particular question right now so that you could also take those comments into consideration in deliberating the question of privileges now before the House. I think there are some comments that we would like to make in connection with that which may be of some help to you, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: Yes, I would entertain that, but I should also like to remind members that I have already issued a statement in regards to privilege and point of order last year, and also the Honourable Speaker Hanuschak in his day did the same thing, so members if they do wish to consider it, I would certainly appreciate it. But they should bear that in mind as well. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I am not quite clear of what my honourable friend the Member from Morris was getting at.

If it refers to the point of privilege on the matter as to whether or not the remarks of the Attorney-General, as recorded in Hansard, were doctored or otherwise, then I would suggest in all due respect, Sir, in view of the fact that you said that you had that matter under consideration and would be making a formal statement, then I would suggest to my Honourable friends a suggested alternative approach would be to consult with you, rather than to make observations in the House itself lest there be a misconstruing of the points that an advice made to you, Sir, by Hansard, by the Press media, or by the individ ual members of the House.

If that is the point that was raised by my Honourable friend from Morris. In all due respect I think it may be advisable to have them under consultation with you, Mr. Speaker, rather than in the House itself, and that would apply to any member of the Assembly. And if there is another point of privilege that the Honourable member for Fort Garry wishes to raise that is divorced from the listening of the tapes this morning, well I am not

March 22, 1972 297 (MR, PAULLEY cont•d) .. ... including that in my general remarks at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: The question of privilege that we would like to raise affects all mem bers of this House, and it is related to the particular question of privilege that was raised the other night, and we believe, Sir, that all members of the House would be interested in hearing it, and therefore I would urge you, Sir, to give us the opportunity to raise it now so that we can take it into consideration because it will affect the conduct of members of the House; it will affect various rulings which you may wish to make; and may even indeed affect the method by which Hansard is being recorded.

So, with your permission, Sir, we would have that opportu nity. I think we should deal with it now and deal with it right in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't want to be misunderstood. I don't disagree with my honourable friend. I really made my remarks in deference to the fact that the Speaker indicated that he was going to make a report, and, however, if it's acceptable to you, Sir, I have no objections, and Pm sure members on this side of the House have no objections to my honourable friends opposite pursuing that point. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I do then wish to raise a point of privilege that concerns myself, and as indicated by my House Leader perhaps from time to time all members of the House, I want to be very cautious and careful, Mr. Speaker, that I do not in any way in discussing the privilege preempt or wander into the area that you have already indicated to me, Mr. Speaker, and to the House that you have taken under advisement. There is an association, however, which I suggest to you at the outset. The question of privilege arises, Mr.

Speaker, and the connection that this has between the incident of last night arises out of the manner in a way in which interjections made by mem bers from time to time during the course of a debate are in fact recorded by our Hansard. For instance, Mr.

Speaker, if you choose to rule that a point of privilege will be sustained or not on the basis of what is recorded and printed in Hansard only, then of course I would per haps have a point of privilege with the· Chamber, and particular ly with the members of the Media and the Press, when it was reported that I used intemperate language in describing the Premier's speech on Monday. The language was used; I use this occasion to make my apologies to the Premier and through the Press to the people of Manitoba who thought, and quite rightly so, that it was intemperate.

However, I am sure that it was not recorded in Hansard, as the remark was made as I was leaving theChamber, walking out of the Chamber away from the microphone. Now, in this particular instance, the reporting, the point that I am making that there are instances where the transcribed proceedings of the Chamber as indicated by Hansard are not necessarily complete, not necessarily completely accurate, as the demonstra tion and the indication I just gave indicates. However, Mr.

Speaker, there is if you research these questions to some extent, a pattern of interjections that is recorded in Hansard, and, Sir, I am making these remarks and these suggestions in the interest of the Chamber as a whole, and I would ask you, Sir, not to read into it anything other than that, Because of a ruling, I understand of yours, Sir, with respect, and you often indicate to us and have so on several occasions, that the mikes will not be turned on, that our comments will not be recorded in Hansard unless, Sir, recognized by you, that the result of that ruling is that the interjections made by that person sitting next to the person speaking are the only ones that are recorded in our Hansard.

For instance, the other day the Member for Brandon was speaking -- and I have approval of the source of the interjections -- throughout, not throughout, that is being unkind to the Member for Fort Garry, but several times, there were interjections made by the Member for Fort Garry during the course of the Member from Brandon•s speech -- they are dutifully recorded in the Hansard. Page 101, proceedings of March 15th.

For instance, on top of Page 101, you have simply an unidentified member's, you know, interjections, "make sure those seeds don•t sprout." Further down the line you can see several occasions where a member's interjections is reported. The interjection of any members opposite will never be recorded under these circumstances. And it is only because of the m ike being open to the person who sits on either side of the speaker, if somebody is sitting there, that those interjections will be reported. So , Mr.

Speaker, there is some degree of unintentional editing, that editing is not the proper word, in the particular situation that

298 March 22, 1972 (MR. ENNS cont'd) •.... arose last night. At the particular time of the disputed statement an interjection was made, very vocally and audibly and by me, and as you will recall this afternoon there was some clamour in the House at the time. It was my impression that an interjection was engaged in by the Attorney-General's office. Now without getting into that because that again gets into that zone that we can't discuss while you"re holding it under advisement.

I feel that that interplay of interjections was supported by further evidence of the Member of Birtle-Russell, who sits behind me, when he got up right after the Attorney-General's speech, and on Page 60, and while the Attorney-General was seated in this Chamber, makes very specific references to the very point of privilege that the Attorney-General raised. Allow me, Mr. Speaker, to read you very briefly that passage. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

I was willing to entertain the advice and guidance on the matter of privilege but I am afraid the Honourable Member for Lakeside is getting into tht.; area where he is d�ating the issue and I am not intending to have the debate start at the present moment. Are there any further guidances? The Honourable Member for Lakes id e. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate my wish to stay within the confines that you set out earlier. I appreciate that this matter is under advisement.

It indicates to you, Sir, some of the difficulties we were having in the discussions that took place between the two House Leaders as to how we could or could not proceed with the matter.

My point of privilege, Sir, the point that I would ask you to take into further considera tion as you consider the serious charges that I made, and for which I am certainly prepared to make adequate apologies and withdrawals, at your request, and without your request, because I have listened to the tapes; but I feel that there is a greater matter of how the question of interjections are dealt with with respect to our recording techniques, and I would ask you to, among other things, to consider the kind of interjections, or the unfairness, or the possible bias, or the possible one-sidedness in the manner or way in which interjections are in fact recorded for posterity in our Hansard, and on other occasions are not.

I say this for this reason, and the only point of the point of privilege is, because a rather serious error was committed on my behalf on the basis of an interjection. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Again the honourable member is debating the issue. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I got the impression, Sir, that you were seeking per haps some further suggestions or advice with respect to the point of privilege which is before you, before this House.

It seems to me, Sir, that the general question of privilege which the Honourable the Member for Lakeside has raised, and which he has addressed himself to you in the last five minutes or so, is a matter which really falls outside the ambit of being a point of privilege, and has more to do with the general conduct of this House, and the general method by which Hansard recordings are made, and as such is a matter which I believe he would be fully within his rights to ask to be taken up by the Rules Committee of this House and by you, Sir.

But it seems to me more a question of method of reporting of the Debates and Proceedings and since it has been raised I would simply deliver this one observation that unless an inter jection that is made by someone in this House, other than who was speaking at the microphone, unless the specific name of the person interjecting is recorded in Hansard, then the inter jection itself ought not to be; and Pm sure the member for Morris will concur that the general reporting method is, that if it is an unidentified interjection it is usually written down in Hansard as being Oh• .

Oh'., or Here - Here, and never more specific than that, unless the actual name of the interjector is also recorded in Hansard. Having said that, Sir, I have no further observation to make other than that it seems to me, Sir , that you have really two subjects before you now. One, the general complaint of the Member for Lakeside, which perhaps may well be valid, but is a matter for the Rules Committee; then, of course, there is the specific, very specific, point of privilege raised by the Attorney-General yesterday, and which has been taken under advisement by you. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I simply rise to say a word or two if I may, in response to your words, were there any other opinions? And without going over what the Honourable Member for Lakeside had to say, I would say to you, Sir, that he is very concerned, and only too willing to make comment to the effect to right something that may be in the opinion of some people that are wrong. But nevertheless, listening to the Honourable the First Minister, and knowing the facts, Sir, that it has been a recent rule of the House, that no one interjecting,

March 22, 1972 299 (MR. BILTON cont•d) ..... or asking questions, will not have the floor unless you announce the name. I say, Sir, in all deference, that I wonder if this is worthwhile.

I •m sure the First Minister is a student of our Parliamentary system who knows very well the many famous comments and many famous words have been said in the past and those very words by way of interjection have had a reason for changing laws and doing something for the people that we are expected to govern, and I, Sir, in all sincerity in your general consideration of the matter, the �erious matter that is before you, would ask you in all sincerity to reconsider your original ruling to give this House the opportunity of interjecting here and now, or here and then, and whether it is caught or not, posterity will thank you for that opinion and I think it should be brought back to the House.

Because after all, Mr. Speaker, for generations un born this is the debates and the words of what is going on today and if an interjection is In there by chance that is for the good of all concerned, let it be in there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister if I understood him correctly suggested that I would concur in a comment he made and I rise only for the purpose of saying, Sir, that I do not concur in the suggestion he made, that only the interjections that are identi fied be recorded in Hansard; some of the best interjections are ones that are unidentified. I think that this whole question is a matter of privilege for the members of this House, not for a Rules Committee.

We are the master of our own rules and I would much prefer that this whole question be raised now and dealt with now so that we have a clear understanding of how we are going to operate in the future. My friend the Member for Lakeside has raised what I think is a very valid and a very legitimate question of privilege because it does affect all mem bers of the House.

I think that unless that is dealt with we are going to continue on in what I believe to be a very unsatisfactory way, notwithstanding the fact that the House has agreed with the position that you've taken, and if you continue to take that position sure we'll still agree with you. But I think that we should reassess this whole question of how we•ve been dealing with these matters and dealing with recording of the debates in this House so that a proper and fair recording of the debates in this Legislature will take place. And it's only if it is done freely that this can possibly happen.

I urge you, Sir, to take that matter under consideration when you're deliberating the subject. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I would not presume to suggest to you, Sir, that there is some easy ruling that you can arrive at in this matter. I would suggest to you, Sir, because of the obvious difference of

interpretation that exists as between the Honourable Member for Lakeside, the Honourable Member for Morris and others, including myself, that perhaps, Sir, the best course of action would be for you to take the matter of the method of reporting of inter jections and related matters in Hansard, to take it under advisement and to take it up with others of your colleagues who serve as Speakers in our respective provincial legislatures and in Ottawa in order to see what practice appeals most to your sense of common sense and fair procedure.

As a case in point, the Honourable Member for Morris suggests that it is -- if I under stood him correctly -- he suggests it's commonplace for interjections voiced say in the House of Commons to be printed in Hansard without specific identification of the person who is doing the interjecting, and I say in reply to that, Sir, that it is commonplace for interjections that include the most colourful of expletives to be recorded in Hansard as "some honourable members, oh, oh.

" So, Sir, perhaps both the Member for Morris and I are both right, but obviously, Sir, it would be I think well advised to make comparisons as the best method of proceeding. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I find myself at this moment debating with myself whether I am speaking on a question of privilege, a point of order or whether it is my point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, as I understand it last night • .. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. We are discussing a matter of privilege in general, no particular point at the moment.

I have taken the particular point under advisement; I shall make a statement on it later. MR. MACKLING: Well then when, Mr. Speaker, I•m advised that the general question of privilege is ended I want to rise on my own question of privilege.

300 March 22, 1972 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, through you, Sir, I want to _assure the Attorney-General that I sympathize with the position he' s taken in respect to his point of privilege and I am pre pared to respond to it if you permit it, Sir. MR. _S PEAKER: ThE;! Honourable Member. for A�;�siniboia. MR. PA TRICK: Mr. Speaker, I just have one comment to make and I would like to say that the Honourable Member for Lakeside has certainly a good point.

If the interjections on the opposition side are going to be recorded I see no reason why the interjections on the govern ment side are not recorded, and at the present time they're not because I can draw or give you an example. When the Honourable Member for Portage was speaking the other day and he made reference to how many civil servants, how many cars they had and the Leader, the House Leader and the Premier quite loudly, not only that everybody on this side heard but the press gallery, everybody heard throughout the whole House, they said "It's a lie, it's a lie. " And it's not recorded.

And interjections on this side -- it is recorded. So I say if there are inter je ctions going to be recorded, it's on a principle, that I think they should be recorded on both sides. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, what the Member for Assi niboia raises by way of insinuation I'd just as soon deal with very directly -- the suggestion that I had said that the statement made by the Member for Portage la Prairie "was a lie. " Not only did I interject that, Sir, I rose in my place and I stated it over the microphone system so that ob viously it must be recorded.

I make no apology for that fact. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I believe I have had sufficient guidance to take the matter under advisement. We are getting into the area of debate and I would also entertain, if any other members have further views, I am available in my suite at any time to all mem bers as I indicated previously. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. JEAN AL LARD (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, I' d like to raise a specific matter of my privilege in this House. In the March 20th issue of Hansard at the top of page 207 the words are written, "Mr. Allard spoke in ·French. " Mr.

Speaker, I wish it to be known that whether I speak in French or in English my words have equal relevance in this House and I would like to see the words spoken in French recorded as well as those spoken in English. MR. SPEAKER: I concur with the honourable member and I must indicate to him that we have had some difficulty in regards to translation and in regards to transcribing of Hansard. We are trying to rectify it. It' s an administrative problem and also a technical problem. I can assure the honourable members we shall try to endeavour to have the exact translation in the future in the right place.

At the present time we just haven't been able to do it. The other problem has been that because of the acoustics we have been having some difficulty as to what is going on the tape. The volume has not always been able to be rectified properly and conse quently there has been some problem in this area. This also I should indicate is one of the reasons why some of the interjections do not get recorded. There was the intent that they shouldn't be recorded but unfortunately if a person is close to a microphone then it does get recorded.

And possibly it' s also true that in some areas there are less interjections so consequently they don• t get recorded. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, if I have misunderstood you, Sir, on the matter of privilege that•s been raised I apologize, but it seems to me, Sir, that there have been in effect two matters of privilege before this House this afternoon, one what one might call a general matter of privilege with respect to the general method of reporting and the other is a very specific personal point of privilege raised by the Attorney-General, and I got the impressi on, Sir, that you had agreed to take the more general matter of privilege under advisement, if in fact it were a matter of privilege, and that the matter of specific point of privilege of the Attorney-General would be dealt with and dealt with now.

If I have misunderstood you. Sir, I apologize. MR. SPEAKER: I should jus t like to indicate to the House what I h:ive agreed to do. I have agreed to take the matter of general privilege in respect to interjections and recording under advisement, which I shall later make a statement on. I have also agreed and indicated that I will make a statem ent in regards to the charge that was made by the Honourable Member for Lakeside.

March 22, 1972 301 (MR. SPEAKER cont•

d) In respect to the matter of privilege that was raised by the At t�rney-Gener al I indicate d, but he's still free to do as he pleases, that I thought that when there are differences of opinion as to what was st ated and what was recorded, they should not be brought up as matters of privilege but they should be brought up on a point of order, because we have had almost every challenge in regards to wrong statements being attributed to persons brought up as a matter of privilege and I think I indicated last year that a matter or privilege should very rarely occur.

So I am willing to consider any points that are raised in regards to where members have been misrepresented, misquoted, miss tated, but I do not believe they fall in the category of a matter of privilege. It is a question of privilege to the member, I will not dispute that, but it is still not a matter � privilege. The Honourable the Attorney-General . MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a point of order arising from a comment made by the Honourable Member from Lakeside this afternoon to the effect that I was in the House seated in my seat when the Honourable Member from Birtle-R usse ll was making his address which immediately followed my address during the Throne Speech. I would like for the record to indicate to the honourable members of the House that within moments after I• d concluded my address I left the Chamber and the Honourable Member for Lakeside is incorrect in the informa tion he gave the House. While I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, on another point of order, I think that it's in the in terests of the House who were advised last night that the tapes would be heard arid the House would be informed as to the results of the hearing that at the earliest possible date, and that is this afternoon that at least the House should be advised whether or not the recording in Hansard attributing to me the words that Hansard shows is in accordance with the recordings on the tapes. Now that is a matter of -- I will call it a point of order. I think with all respect, Mr.

Speaker, it is a matter of personal privilege because the clear su ggestion made last night in this House was the fact the recording in Hansard had been altered in some way and did not in fact reflect the words that I had addressed in this Chamber, and I' m entitled on the part of this House to a confirmation from the Speaker as to what the records of the House show, whether they are accurate or no, at the first opportunity. MR. SPEAKER: I should like to indicate to the Attorney-General I appreciate his re marks but he's asking me to pre-empt myself in the statement I' m going to make.

I wanted to reserve that question of making the statement becaus e it was a very serious charge that was involved. I have always appreciated that every member in this House went on the assumption that there was no tampering with anyone in this House, with any equipment in this House that has been put under the jurisdiction of the Speaker or any other senior officer of this Ass embly, and consequently I was not willing to discuss the matter until I had reflected upon it. And as I have said I was under the impression that all members assume that there had been no tamper ing and this was correct.

At the moment I can assure the honourable members that the ca se is still the same, the tapes have not been tampered with, Hansard is correct. I shall make a further statement in regard to the matter later on. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, in connection with the matter raised earlier by the House Leader I take it that this is not resolved as yet because I take issue with what happened last night when I was ruled out of order and I -- under debatable motions I raised under 34 (1) (j) . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

I believe the honourable member has been in this Ass embly a length of time that would indicate to him he should not debate a Speaker• s Ruling or a Chairman's ruling. I really do believe that I have given every member of this House equal opportunity, impartiality and fairness of treatment. The ruling was made last night; it was upheld by this Assembly and I don't see the point the Honourable Member for Rhineland is trying to make. If he does have a problem which concerns the Chair I will entertain seeing him in my own chambers if he wants to do it privately.

A further ruling in regards to that is that one does not question the Chair from the floor. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. · MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, if that' s the case I fail to understand why the House Leader had to bring up the matter this afternoon. Certainly . . . MR SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

March 22, 1972 MR. SCHREYER: I must rise on a point of order simply because, Sir, the Member for Rhineland is raising a subject which is unrelated to the point that is before the House, which is the point of privilege, which, Sir, wit h apology to you, it wou ld seem there is a general prob lem and a very specific point of privilege that is before this House. Until that matter is dis posed of by you!. Sir, and by this House it' s out of order to proceed with any other subject matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

FROESE: The House Le ader raised the matter of the adjourned motion by the Member for Lakeside and I cer tainly will not acquiesce, to just forget this whole matter. After all the blunder was created and I cer tainly will not ju st go along wit hout even a request that this be cl eared up. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, at the close of my remarks in this Chamber last evening the Honourable the Attorney-General raised a question of privilege because debate proceeded along different and unanticipated lines at that moment.

I would propose now, Sir, to attempt to respond to the question of privilege that he• s raised, unless you rule me out of order, Sir. I would like to say that the Attorney-General in my view raised a legitimate point but that if he wo uld consult the bottom of page 64 and the top of page 65 of Hansard, he will understand my mis understanding of his remarks . Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the Attorney General that I mis understood his remarks, I misinterpreted his remarks, I misrepresented his remarks, he did not say what I said he said.

I go by what it says in Hansard, I don' t care about the tapes, and I apologize to him, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I should like to say at this moment that I, too, should apologize to this House. I am sure the· honourable members will agree wit h me that when one becomes lenient in the Chair, one gets deeper and deeper into the quagmire that one has started to enter and I•m going to inform the House that this leniency will not prevail. I am going to try to conduct your meeting according to your rules and that will include interjections, and maybe that may eliminate the matter of privilege in the future as well.

But I shall nevertheless take the matter under advisement. May we proceed. ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DA VID R. BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing for each department and agency of the Government of Manitoba the following information: 1. The number of permanent employees on June 1, 1969, on Dec ember 31, 1969, on June 1, 1970 , on Dec ember 31, 1970, on June 1, 1971 , and on December 31, 1971. 2.

The nl!mber of temporary or term employees on each of the dates mentioned in 1. above. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. BLAKE : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information: 1. The amount of office or other space purchased , rented, or leased by the Provincial Government or its agencies since July 25th . . . MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

I would suggest to you, Sir, that because the number of returns are, first of all, they are very numerous, very lengthy, that if it could be agreed, Sir, to dispense with the actual reading of the motions it might expedite the business of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Will the House . . . The Honourable Member for Morris on a point of order. MR. JORGE NSON: We are not disagreeable to that suggestion, providing that the actual Order for Ret urn itself is printed in Hansard, as if read. MR. SPEAKER: (Agreed).

Then will the Honourable Member from Minnedosa indicate the moving and seconding of it and I'll make the motion as if read for adoption. MR. BLAKE: Moved by myself, seconded by the.Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, Mr. Speaker, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following

March 22, 1972 .;103 (MR. BLAKE cont•d ) . . . . . inf ormation: 1. The amount of office or other space purchased, rented, or leased by the Provincial Government or its agenci es since July 25th, 1969. 2. The date of each particular purchase, lease or rental transaction. 3. The persons or companies with which each transaction occurred. 4. The amount of building space involved in each particular transaction. 5. The amount of money paid out in respect of each particular transaction. 6. The department or agency of the Provincial Government on whose behalf each par ticular transaction was made. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion. The Honourable First Minis ter. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I should indicate in a formal way that the second order for Return is accepted. We will try to accommodate the Honourable Member. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Penbina, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following: 1.

The number of houses purchased by the Department of Health and Social Development on behalf of any of its clients. 2. The number of houses purchased by clients of the Department of Health and Social Development using funds provided by the Department. 3. The amount of money paid out in respect of transactions under items 1. and 2. 4. The legal conditions of transactions under 1. and 2. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYE R: Again, Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate in a formal way that Order No. 3 is accepted. MR.

SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. BLAKE : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Charleswood that an Order of the House do issue providing for the respective periods of November 1st, 1967 to July 15t h, 1969, and July 15th, 1969 to January 1st, 1972, the following information concerning the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet and/or its Secr etariat s: (1 } the number of permanent employees, showing for each: (

a) name; (

b) contractual terms of employment; (

c) professional qualifications (where applicable); (

d) date of appointment; (

e) salary; (

t) nature of appointments (by competition, bulletin, etc. ); (2) the number of temporary employees (including those on contract) showing for each: (

a) name; (

b) contractual terms of employment; (

c) professional qualifications (where applicable) ; (

d) date of appointment; (

e) length of term; (

t) salary; (

g) nature of appointment (by competi tion, bulletin, contract, etc. ); (3) those engaged as consultants showing for each: (

a) name of individual or firm; (

b) contractual terms ; (

c) qualifications; (

d) remuneration including amount and system of payment; (

e) purpose (name of project where applicable) ; (4) any other casual employees showing: (

a) name; (

b) contractual terms of employment; (

c) professional qualifications (where applicable); (

d) date of appointment; (

e) length of term;

304 March 22, 1972 (MR. BLAKE cont•d) (

t) salary; (

g) nature of appointment (by competition, bulletin, contract, et c. ); (5 ) the number of occasi ons on which transfers have occurred from contract or term status to permanent staff status ; . (6) whether these transfers were handled by the normal Civil Service Commission pro cedure of bulletining and boards ; (7) the number of transfers from other departments to Planning and Priorities Committee that have taken place, giving in each ease the name of persons and their prior department. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the Motion. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I' d like to indicate to the House that Order No. 4 which is a lengthy order asking for the names of individuals and for their salaries, etc. is the kind of Order for Return which I do not believe there is precedence for acc epting, and accord ingly, I would advis e the honourable member that if the Order is acc epted, we would accept it subject to the fact that there would be no listing of individual names but rather an endeavour to provide information as to categories of employment and qualification and the nature of appointment, etc. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed ? (Acc eptable) Mr.

Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. BLAKE : Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West, that an Order of the House do issue providing information in the following categories concerning share transactions since July 1st, 1969, between private firms and the Manitoba Government, the Manitoba Development Corporation, and/or any other agency of the Manitoba Government: (1) the name of any private firm in which equity has been purchased ; (2) the name of any private firm in respect of which an option to purchase equity has been acquired; (3 ) the date of each transaction listed under category (1) or category (2); (4) whether the equity shares in question in category (1) or category (2) were of the i•voting" or non-voting varieties ; (5 ) in each case the perc entage of equity which has been purchased or the percentage of equity which could be obtained through the exercise of options; ( 6) the amount of money paid out in respect of each transaction; (7) in respect of each transaction a copy of the balance sheet of the firm involved at the time of the transaction; ( 8) in respect of each transaction a copy of the profit and loss statement of the firm involved for the financial year immediately preceding the transaction.

MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER : With respect to Order No. 5 it is cer tainly possible to provide the information as requested in the first six sub items. However, the last two questions of this Order are such that there is a statutory prohibition on the providing of this information. So subject to that understanding this Order is acceptable. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? (Agreed) . Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to have this order for Return wi thdrawn from the Order Paper, that an Order of the House do issue showing copies of all communications between the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, and the Manitoba Boxing and Wrestling Co=ission from December 1st, 1971 up to and including February 28th, 1972. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed ? (Agreed) The Cl erk will note the wit hdrawal. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West that the Order as indicated in the Order Paper No. 7 be accepted. --( Interjection)-- Pd be very pleased to. That an Order of the House do issue showing the regulations, terms of reference, and/or operating instructions governing the compiling and issu ing of a computerized version of the Statutes of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion.

March 22, 1972 305 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I would indicate that we are prepared to accept this Order for Return, subject to the condition that some of the particularization certainly may not be in existence and that will be as it may be. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? MR. BILTON: Commenting on that, Mr. Speaker •.. MR, SPEAKER: No debate. Are you ready for the question? Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second Order for �turn by the Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West, that Resolution No. 8 be accepted. I'd be very pleased to read it if you instruct me to do so, Mr. Speaker. That an Order of the House do issue showing for each of the boards, commissions and committees listed in

Schedule A (attached) the following information: (1) the number of appointed members and the name and remuneration of each; (2) the number of employees and the name and remuneration of each; (3) activities, including meetings and reports, if any, during the calendar years 19 70 and 1971.

SCHEDULE "A" Department of Agriculture: Advisory Board under the Frozen Food Plant Act Agricultural Societies Advisory Board Artificial Insemination Advisory Board Committee on Tree Protection of Manitoba Cooperative Promotion Board Credit Union Stabilization Fund Board Dairy Board Egg Producers' Marketing Board Egg and Pullet Producers' Council Fee d Grain Commission Horned Cattle Purchases Advisory Board Horticultural Societies Advisory Board Meat Committee Le Fonds de Secruite Des Caisses Populaires Livestock Protection Society Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation Manitoba Marketing Board Honey Producers Marketing Board Hog Marketing Commission Vegetable Marketing Commission (1 968 ) Turkey Producers Marketing Board Chicken & Broiler Producers Marketing Board Milk Control Board Pesticide Residue Committee R. 0, P, Swine Committee Semen Distribution Centre Veterinary Services Commission Weed Control Advisory Board Women's Institute Advisory Board Attorney-General: Board of County Court Judges Board of Review Canteen Funds Board Commission of Uniformity of Legislation in Canada Continuing Consolidation of Statutes Fact Finding Committee on Legal Aid Human Rights Commission Land Value Appraisal Commission

306 (MR. BILTON cont•

d) Law Reform Commission Legal Aid Services Society Liquor Control Commission Liquor Lice nsing Board Provincial Lotteries Board Department of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services • Securities Commission Public Utilities Board Exec utive.

Council� Ec onomic Consultative Board Electoral Division Boundaries Commission Accide nt Review Board Automotive Equipment Committee Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board Department of Finance: Manitoba School Capital Financing Au thority Department of Health and Social Development; Advisory Boards Local Health Units Advisory Committee on Immunization Procedures Advisory Committee on Radiation and Health Advisory Council under Licensed Practical Nurses Act Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba Board of Administration under Embalmers & Funeral Direc tors Act Disability Assessment Panel Hearing Aid Board Management Committee of the Manitoba Dental Clinic Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Manitoba Health Services Commission Ministers Board Under Mental Health Act Provincial Board of Health Psychiatric Nurses Education Advisory Committee Old Age Assistance and Blind Persons Allowances Board Sanatorium Board Scie ntific & Research Advisory Committee Vocational Rehabilitation Training Committee Welfare Advisory Committee (Appeal Board) Department of Industry and Commerce: Communities Econ omic Development Fund Board Economic Development Advisory Board Manitoba Design Institute Manitoba Developm ent Corporation Manitoba Export Corporation Manitoba Research Council Department of Labour: Board of E� aminers - under the Barbers Act under the Hairdressers Act under the Ele ctricians License Act under The Gas and Oil Burner Act Operating Engineers and Firemen Moving Picture Machine Operators Examination Boards - Automobile Body Repair Trade Automobile Mechanical Repair Trade Carpenters Trade Painters and Decorators Plumbers Trade Steamfitters Trade Refrigeration Trade Sheet Metal Trade Elevator & Hoist Board March 22, 197 2

March 22, 1972 (MR. BILTON cont•

d) Gas Advisory Committee Glazier Trade Advisory Committee Industrial Trades Advisory Committee Trade Advisory Committees Automobile Repairs and Engine Mechanics Bricklayers and Masons, etc.

Carpenters and Woodworkers Electricians, Elect ric Winders and Repairmen Machinists Painters and Decorators Plasters and Lathers Plumbers and Steamfitters Sheet M tal Workers Labour-Management Review Committee Manitoba Labour Board Minimum Wage Board Greater Winnipeg Building Construction Wages Board Heavy Construct ion Wages Board Rural Building Construction Wages Board Propane Gas Advisory Committee Provincial Apprenticeship Board Apprenticeship Committee - Flin Flon Local Workmen's Compensation Board Civil Service Commission Civil Service Superannuation Board Civil Service Superannuation Fund Investment Committee Joint Council The Legislative Asse mbly: Board of Internal Economy Commissioners Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management: Assi niboine Advisory Board Assiniboine River Flood Fighting Committee Clean Environment Commission Committee on Permanent Dyking in Red River Valley Delta Marsh Development Committee Flood Forecas ting Committee Fresh Water Fish Marketing Corporation Fur Advisory Committee Grand Rapids Forebay Committee Interprovincial Boundaries Commission Lake of the Woods Control Board Lake Winnipeg Management Board Lower Red River Valley Commission Manitoba Land Use Committee Manitoba Water Commission Mining Board Nelson Agency Oil and Natural Gas Conservation Board Canadian Permanent Committee on Geographical.

Names Prairie Provinces Water Board Red River Valley Board Resources Conservation Commission Rivers and Streams Authority No. 1 Saskatchewan-Basin Board Souris River Water Commission Water Supply Board Watershed Conservation Commission 307

308 (MR. BILTON cont'

d) Department of Municipal Affairs: The Advisory Committee (Public Insurance) Civic Service Board Housing and Renewal Corporation Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Municipal Affairs Advisory Committee Municipal Audit Advisory Committee Municipal Board Rates Appeal Board (Public Insurance) Royal Commission - The City of Brandon Transitional Assistance Board (Public Insurance) Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs: Boxing and Wrestling Commission Censor Board Centennial Centre Corporation Civic Development Corporation Documents Committee Historic Sites Advisory Board Horse Racing Commission Manitoba Advisory Council on Fitness and Amateur Sport Manitoba Arts Council Manitoba Centennial Corporation Manitoba Telephone System Motion Picture Appeal Board Public Libraries Advisory Board Department of Public Works and Highways : Driver License Suspension Appeal Board Highway Traffic and Motor Transport Board Taxicab Board Taxicab Inquiry Commission Transportation Commission Department of Urban Affairs: Greater Winnipeg Transportation Study Committee Sinldng Fund Committee Department of Youth & Education: Advisory Board Advisory Board - Manitoba School for Deaf Board of Governors - Brandon University Board of Governors - University of Manitoba Board of Reference Board of Regents - University of Winnipeg Board of Teacher Certification and Education Boards of Arbitration Boards of Conciliation Building Projects Committee Bursary Selection Committee Collective Agreement Board Committee on Reform of Edu cation Community Colleges Council Council on Higher Learning Course Advisory Committee (Co mmunity Colleges) Discipline Committee Evaluations Committee High School Examination Board Interview Committee - Overseas Teachers Public Schools Finance Board Regional Advisory Boards (C ommunity Colleges) March 22, 1972

March 22, 1972 (MR. BILTON cont•

d) Teachers Retirement Allowances Board Teachers Retirement Allowances Fund Investment Committee University Grants Commission MR. SPEAKER presented the motion MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister 309 MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, obviously some explanation is needed here with respect to this particular Order which runs to five pages in length. The government is inclined to accept the Order subject to the following conditions: (1 ) That such information as is already provided in reports tabled in this House or other wise on the public records will not be included in the RP turn since that would be duplicating information already on the public record and;

(2) Is that in accordance with the citation 213 of Beauchesne, I believe, that such informa tion as will take an unreasonable amount of labour and expense to fill, need not be accepted and accordingly that part of this Order for Return is not accepted, either. But all other information as does not fall under those two major caveats , Mr. Speaker, is accepted and a return will be filed at the earliest pos sible opportunity. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opinion of the Honourable First Minister and I am sure that with reasonable few exceptions we will get the information required.

MR. SPEAKER put the quest ion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. (Abs ent) The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: In the absence of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Riel, that Order for Return No. 9 be accepted by the government.

THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information con cerning each deposit account maintained by the Government of Manitoba, or any of its depart ments, or any of its agencies or Crown corporations in any banking or other financial institution: (1 ) the name of the institution; (2) the balance of the account as of February 29, 197 2; (3) the amount of any loan owing as of February 29, 1972 to the banking or financial institution in which a deposit account is maintained; (4) the amount of any loan owing between the Government of Manitoba, any of its depart- ments or agencies or Crown corporations as of .February 29, 1972.

MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, just for clarification I assume that we are . MR. SPEAKER: That• s on top of page 9. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, thank you, Sir. This order for ret urn having to do with financial institutions and practices is accepted by the government. · MR, SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, if he•s in the Chamber, that Order for Return No. 10 be accepted by the Government. (1) the record of all correspondence from December 1st, 1971 to March 3rd, 197 2 between the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cu ltural Affairs and the former members of the Manitoba Boxing and Wrestling Commission, being Messrs. Don Rowand, Ray Dorey and Norm Coston; (2) the remuneration paid each member of the Manitoba Boxing and Wres tling Commission during 19 71; (3 ) the number of times from Dec ember 1st, 1971 to February 26t h, 1972 that the Minister: (

a) visited the offices of the Manitoba Boxing and Wrestling Commission; (

b) was visited by Commission members in his office; (

c) otherwise met personally with the members of the Commission; (4) the approximate cu mulative length of those meetings between the Minister and mem bers of the Manitoba Boxing and Wrestling Commission during the time period specified;

310 March 22, 1972 (MR, SHERMAN cont'd) (5) the subject or subjects under discussi on during the February 27th, 1972 meeting between the Minister and members of the Commission; (6) the record of all correspondence from December 1st, 1971 to March 1st, 1972 between the Minister of Tourism, Recr eation and Cultural Affairs and the new members of the Manitoba Boxing and Wres tling Commiss ion, being Messrs . Jerry Wilson, M. D. , David Anderson, and Gordon Macki.e; (7) the date on which the Minister of Tourism, Recre ation and CulturaL Affairs initially proposed membership on the Manitoba Boxing and Wrest ling Commission to: (

a) Dr. Jerry Wilson; (

b) Professor David Anderson; (

c) Mr. Gordon Macki.e; ( 8) the form that such initial communication from the Minister took in each case; (9) the date on which the Minister rec eived information of acc eptance of appointment to the Manitoba Boxing and Wrestling Commission from : (

a) Dr. Jerry Wilson; (

b) Professor David Anderson; (

c) Mr. Gordon Macki.e; (10) the form that communication of such acc eptance took in each case; (1 1) the number of occasions from February 1st, 1972 to March 1st, 1972 on which the Minister had communication, written or verbal, with: (

a) Irving Ungerman or George Chuvalo, or both; (

b) Boxing promoter Jack Keller; (

c) The Canadian Profess ional Boxing Federation; (

d) The Ontario Athletics Commission; (12) the main subject of these communications, if any; (1 3) the various Boards, Commiss ions and Agencies, other than the Manitoba Boxing and Wres tling Commissi on, that operate under the jurisdict ion and authority of the Department of Tourism, Recre ation and Cultural Affairs; (14) the number of persons on each such Board, Commission or Agency; (1 5) their remuneration for 1971; (16 ) the number of times the Minister met with each such Board, Commission or Agency from December 1st, 1971 to February 29, 1972. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR.

SHERMAN: I move, I re-move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West that Order No. 10 ... MR. SPEAKE R: Thank you. Are you ready for the question? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. DE SJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the honourable member that I do not intend to accept the Order for Return as it deals with day to day operation, which is the res ponsibility of the department, the responsibility of the minister.

I wo uld not wish to create a precedent that would be binding on myself nor my colleagues and I wish to tell the honourable member that if he wishes or is anxious to debate this motion I certainly intend to take

part in this debate and give him most of the answers at this time, but I certainly don• t want to es tablish a precedent. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: I thank the Honourable Minister, Mr. Speaker, and I request to have this Order transferred for debate. MR. SPEAKE R: Thank you. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina that Order No. 11 be accepted.

THAT an Order of the House do issue providing for the respective periods of November 1st , 1967 to July 15th, 1969, and July 15th, 1969 to January 1st, 1972, the following information concerning Management Committee of Cabinet: (1) the number of permanent employees, showing for each: (

a) name; (

b) contractual terms of employment; (

c) professional qualifications (where applicable); (

d) date of appointment;

March 22, 1972 (MR. BLAKE cont•d) (

e) salary; (

t) nature of appointment (by competition, bulletin, etc. ); 311 (2) the number of temporary employees (including those on contract) showing for each: (

a) name; (

b) contractual terms of employment; (

c) professional qualifications (where applicable); (

d) date of appointment; (

e) length of term ; (

t) salary; (

g) nature of appointment (by competition, bulletin, contract, etc. ); (3 ) those engaged as consultants showing for each: (

a) name of individual or firm; (b). contractual terms ; (

c) qualifications ; (

d) remuneration including amount and system of payment; (

e) purpose (name of project where applicable) ; (4) any other casual employees showing: (

a) name; (

b) contractual terms of employment; (

c) professional qualifications (where applicable) ; (

d) date of appointment; (

e) length of term; (

t) salary; (

g) nature of appointment (by competition, bulletin, contract, etc. ); (5) the number of occ asions on which transfers have occu rred from contract or term status to permanent sta�f status; (6 ) whether these transfers were handled by the normal Civil Service Commission procedure of bulletining and boards ; (7 ) the number of trans fers from other departments to Management Committee of Cabinet that have taken place, giving in each case the name of persons and their prior department. MR, SPEAKER presented the motion MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, this practice we have adopted, Sir, of numbering the Orders has served us well so far this afternoon but on a point of order, Sir, we come now to a point where it is difficult to identify the Order for Return. Can we, by some means have identification? MR. SPEAKER: I'll read the first part. 11Tha!_ an Order of the House do issue providing for the respective periods of November 1st, 1967 to July 15 th, 1969, and July 15t h, 1969 to January 1st, 1972, the following information concerning Management Committee of Cabinet:" on page 10, MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, this Order for Return we propose to be dealt with in exactly the same manner as the Order for Return submitted by the Honourable Member for Minnedosaw ithr espect to the Planning and Priorities Committee, that is to say, such infor mation as does not deal with individual names and individual salaries ; such information will not be provided but all other information will be. This is in accordance with Citation 213 of Beauchesne. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE : I request that this order be transferred for debate. MR.

SPEAKER: Agreed, Very well, the Clerk will take note. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye, there is no point before the Hous e. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa on the next Order for Return on page 11. MR. BLAKE: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, that an Order of the House do issue , providing the following information concerning each transaction in land carried out by the Land Acquisit ion Branch of the Government of Manitoba since July 15t h, 1969: on page 11 (1 ) the amount and location of the land involved; (2) whether the transaction involved outright purchases or the acquisit ion of options;

312 March 22, 197 2 (MR, BLAKE cont'd) . . . . . (3 ) the amount of money paid by the goverm.. 1ent; (4) the department or agency of government on whose behalf the transaction was made; (5) the present use or dispos ition of the land. MR. SPEAKER presented the Motion. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the government will accept this Order for Return.

However, on the condition that this information which is requested provides a great deal of work, it will involve a considerable amount of time in the department for which I do not intend to engage additional staff and therefore, it may take many, many months to acc umulate this information, and under those conditions we accept. MR. SPEAK ER: Agreed ? MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GE ORGE HENDERSON (P embina): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Rock Lake that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing: The following information relative to the operations of the Welfare Advisory Committees Appeal Board: (1 ) The number of appeals it heard since March 31, 1971 until March 9, 1972.

(2) The number of appeals it rejecte d since March 31, 1971 until March 9, 1972.

(3) The number of appeals in which its decisions resu lted in increased welfare payments.

(4) The remuneration paid to the Committee Chairman and to each of its mem bers. (5 ) The number of members on the committee in 1970 and 1971, and their names . MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I should just like to indicate to the Honourable Member for Pembina that the information that is being requested here we believe we can provide. Again it's a case of requiri ng, shall we say, quite a few man-weeks of effort. However, with those constraints the order is accepted. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie.

The Honour able Member for La Verendrye on his behalf. MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, could we have this matter stand. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Cresce ntwood. Twice. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson) : Mr. Speaker, I move that - have the matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Riel that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information concerning each of the PEP Programs and/or grants initiated by the provincial government in the details shown on Page 12 of the Orders of the Day. (1 ) the criteria of eligibility under which the grant or program was established ; (2) the category of economic activity into which the grant or program falls; ( 3) the manner and date of application; (4) the names of the recipi ents of the grant or the operators of the program; (5) the name of the principal person in charge of studying the application for the grant or program; ( 6) the name of the principal person in charge of proce ssing the application for the grant or program; ( 7) the name of the principal person .responsible for authorizing the grant or program; (8) the number of such grants and/or programs .

MR. SPEAKER presented the motion MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER : Mr. Speaker, this Order for Return involves again a great deal of staff effort and public expense. I believe in this case we will want to -invoke Cit ation 213 of Beauchesne� MR. SPEAK ER: In other words the honourable minister is saying you're not adopting it, not in this form. The Honourable Member for Brandon West.

March 22, 1972 313 MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this matter be transferred to the appropri ate point in the order of debate. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable Member for Brandon West, on the next order. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River that an Order of the Hous e do issue showing the total number and dollar amount of loans made by the Manitoba Development Corporation which were in arrears as of February 29th, 1972. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, this is a straight-forward Order for Return which does not require any comparable effort in terms of staff, man-years etc. in compiling and we will accept it wit hin the limits of course, of the statutory provisions of the Manitoba Development Corporation Act. MR, SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russe ll. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russ ell, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris that an Order of the Hous e do issue for a Return showing: 1. The number of acres of "lure crops" either planted or ordered planted during the crop year 1971 by the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management under the authority of the Wildlife Act as amended by Bill 123 of the Second Session of the 29th Legislature. 2. The Location of each crop planted and the type of crop sown at each Location. 3. The names of the owners of the land involved at each Location. 4.

Copies of all Agreements entered into by the government in each case. 5. The amount of monies paid out by the Provincial Government in each case since the amendments came into effect. 6, The amount of monies paid out to other Manitoba farmers in every case where com pensation has been for wildlife damage. 7. The names of each farmer and the amount paid to each farmer where compensation for damage has been made. MR. SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, seconded by -- he said Morris, but the Honourable Member for Morris is not here. MR. JORGENSON: He was in his seat, Sir, when I made the ... MR.

BLAKE: Put my name on it. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL : Mr.

Speaker, I move. seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieute nant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between any member of the Executive Council and the management of Manitoba Hydro concerning the regulation of Lake Winnipeg, and/or the erec tion of structures to control the level of Lake Winnipeg and/or plans to derive electrical power from the regulation of Lake Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the government' s position with respect to this Address for Papers is the same position that has been invoked by governments over the years and that is specifically that matters or memorandae of a interdepartmental or inter-office nature are not matters for tabling in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this matter be transferred to the appropri ate point in the Order Paper for debate. MR. SPEAKER: Very well, The Honourable Member for Brandon West on the next Address for Papers. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Riel That an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieut enant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro and the Premier or the

314 March 22, 1972 (lY1R. McGILL cont'd) ..... Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management, or any official of that department conc erning the application for the Interim License to regulate Lake Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: The same factors that work, Mr. Speaker, based on precedence going back many years inter-office memorandum we rejected. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, may I have this matter transferred for debate. MR. SPEAKER: Very well.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, may I on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieute nant-Governor requesting copies of all correspondence between the office of the First Minister and the office of the Prime Minister of Canada, related to northern oil and gas development; and between the Minister of Industry and Commerce and the office of The Honourable Jean Chretien on the same subject; and between the office of any Minister of the Province of Manitoba and Panarctic Oils Limited, concerning northern oil and gas development. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER : Well again, Mr. Speaker, it' s not a case of a Ci tation of Beauchesne but a case of precedent. This address for papers while acce pted will require the consent, prior consent of the Government of Canada and we shall seek to obtain same. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieut enant-Governor reques ting copies of all informational documents and applications relating to each of the PEP programs and grants initiated by the provincial government. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if it could be clarified that what the honourable member is seeking is a copy of each of the kinds of informational docum ents that were iss ued and a copy of each of the specimen or example forms of applicat ion, then we would accede to this requ est. But in the event that the honourable member is referring to each individual actual application, then this is not acc eptable. MR. SPEAKER: Is it understood ? All in favour please say aye. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I would ask this matter be transferred for debate. MR. SPEAKER: Very well.

The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Riel that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieut enant-Governor reques ting copies of the minutes of each me eting of the Board of Manitoba Hydro since June 25th, 1969. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the government having checked with the practice on the part of the Government of Canada, we know of no basis or precedent for the tabling of minutes of Crown corporations and accordingly we reject this Order for Return. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please. We have now reached the stage, written questions, there is none. Second reading of government bills. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McG ILL : I would ask that this matter be transferred for debate. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Second reading of government bills. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, Sir, would you indicate the sequence now between the written questions anti government bills, because it would be my intention, Sir, to call the two bills in the government's name that are here but I notice that there are two or three quest ions that precede it. MR. SPEAKER: Well I was under the impressi on that procedure would indicate that if

March 22, 1972 315 (MR. SPEAKER cont•d) ..... questions are written they have to be presented to the House. Is that it, then they are acc epted ? The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, if I may be of some assist ance. I think the procedure that was intended in written questions is simply that the question be written out, handed to the Clerk and it appears in Votes and Proceedings and the Orders of the Day until they're answered ; they just remain there as I think is a practice in the House of Commons.

They need not be formally moved and need not be answered verbally unless they are accompanied by an asterisk. I think the intention here was simply to follow the practice that has been followed in the House of Commons with regard to questions. MR. SPEAKER: Second Reading of government bills. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill No. 2. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. GOVERNMENT BILLS -S ECON D READING MR. MACKLING presented Bill No. 2

An Act to amend the Legislative Library Act for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the bill that is before the Hous e is a very short and simple bill. The wording is fairly technical but the resu lt of this bill is to provide a method by which surplus records of the courts can be destroyed as is the practice with all other redundant government records .

I am advised that all of our courts have a great acc umulation of very old records, and this is particularly so in the Magistrate's Courts where the bulk of the cases are dealt with and it' s a matter of some urgency that a reas onable disposition be made of outdated and unnec essary court material, paper material, and thus the Bill to amend the Library Act is to make provision for the orderly destruction of unnecessa ry and surplus court records on the same basis as other ancient and unnecessary documents of general governmental concern are dealt with.

Accordingly I recommend to the House the passage of this bill. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Birtle Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, on the question of the transfer, in the proposed legislation that we have before us here, I don't think that the Attorney-General has really given us suffi� cient information on this at the present time. This is really a major step in one respect and it causes some concern to me, Mr. Speaker, when you refer to

Section 6 of our Library Act which this bill does not cover, and in

Section 6 of our Library Act it says that the Provincial Library shall be kept as close as possible to the Legislative Chamber. Now will the effect of this legis lation be such that the room that is required will make it impossible for

Section 6 of the Library Act to be enforc ed ? The Attorney-General hasn' t told us that. This, to the members of this Chamber should be a question of concern because we need the Library right close to the Chamber so we can get the res earch material that is so often necessa ry for debate and for res earch. So I would ask the First Minister or the Attorney-General to provide· us with answers to some of these questions when this bill goes to Committee for further study. This is all I have to say at this time, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BARKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Churchill, this debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, would you call next the motion standing in the name of the Honourable Minister of Finance, the adjournment of which was taken by the Member for Lakeside. I believe, Sir, that the understanding is that the Honourable Member for Lakeside would want to withdraw his adjournment motion on this. I believe the Member for Morris can corroborate that. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that was the agreement that was arrived at earlier this afternoon. MR. SCHREYER: So then, Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable Minister of Finance, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General -- if I recall -- that this House will at its next sitting resolve itself into a

316 March 22, 1972 (MR. SPEAKER cont•d) . . . . . Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. MR. SC HREYER: Mr. Speaker, would you call second reading of Bill No. 4 MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. DOERN presented Bill No. 4,

an Act to amend the Department for Public Works Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, the thrust of Bill No. 4 is to empower the Minister in the Department of Public Works to lease or to sell equipment and other materials necessary to the Department in the business of government. Previously the whole amount considered in this

section was $5 00. 00. This bill proposes that the amount be raised to $5, 000. 00, In effect, when a measure is under $5 00. 00 and a proposed bill under $5, 000 that matter can be disposed of at the discretion of the Minister. If it is over at present $500. 00 and proposed $5, 000 it requires the approval of the Executive Council. The main reason for the introduction of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is to streamline government, to enable the department to dispose of matters under the $5, 000 figure without reference to the Executive Council.

The previous figure has been in existence for a number of years and I think that it is not a good policy to bother the Cabinet with small items. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Having heard the words of wisdom from the Minister or the Acting Minister of Public Works I am inclined to agree wholeheartedly with him, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly at this time in the history of our province we have to make every means possible to try and expedite the work and the business of this province to getting ahead to the point where something is going to happen in this province; and if we can assist the Minister in any way by passing a bill of this nature I think that all the people in Manitoba should benefit from it. We have slowly been drowning, Sir, in a sea of paper work and indecisions that this government has made for these past two and a half years and it's time that we got ahead with business.

Let's give the Minister some power to act and act expeditiously. MR. SPEAKER : Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I shall only be a minute or two.

While the Minister was explaining the reasons for the bill -- and I must agree with the speaker that just spoke that we wish to streamline a lot of things -- but I hope he didn' t just think that $5, 000 was as small a sum as the tone he said it in because while we fully realize that this is a small sum in a lot of respects and we are going to support this bill but I hope this is not setting a precedent by start ing to enlarge these figures to an amount that might seem unreasonable in the near future. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SC HREYER: Mr. Speaker, I understand that there is consent in the House to proceed now to adjournment of the House. I understand that there is an Interim Statement being dis tributed to all members, it will take just a few seconds. When that's completed I would propose to move adjournment of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance, this House do now adjourn. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House · adjourned until 2:30 Thursday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-15
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 15.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7f05f9e263b5d2475694a71f1bb36496eaef71be

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