Manitoba Hansard — 6 April 1976 (Sitting 66, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-66

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE IEGISIA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8 p.m., Tuesday, April 6, 1976 SUPPLY -NORTHERN AFFAIRS 2031 MR. CHAIR MAN (Mr. Walding): Order please. I direct the attention of honourable members to Page 45 in their Estimate Book. Resolution 97(a)(1). The Honour able Member for Minnedosa. MR. DA VID BIA KE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My remarks won't be too lengthy because I think everything that I had planned on saying has been covered fairly generally by my colleagues.

But I didn't want to let the entire Estimates pass with out making one or two comments on some of the remarks that have been made partially in rebuttal to proposals from this side of the House, and partially some views of my own that I might have on some of the developments in the north. There's no question I don't think, Mr. Chairman, that those of us on this side of the House, we appreciate the problems that are encountered when you attempt development in some of the remote areas of the north. I think all of the remarks from this side of the House are taken as if they're directed at established areas.

We realize that areas such as Thompson and Flin Flon that have a pretty basic industry and a pretty large industry, the problems encountered there are entirely different than those of remote communities. So I think you have to realize, because we certainly realize, these situations are different entirely. We appreciate the special programs and the education plans that have been developed and we can also appreciate some of the problems that have been encountered in bringing these programs to some type of development. But, Mr.

Chairman, it seems odd that when criticism is levelled from this side of the House that it is brushed aside lightly by the members opposite because I don't think that's the intention in which it is given and I don't think the members opposite can deny that many many of the criticisms from this side of the House over the past couple of years have been very valid.

I think many of the projects that have been undertaken, admirable as they may be, have been undertaken without proper study and without proper consultation with people in the area and without taking the proper people in or the right people in to bring those plans into some useful purpose to the people in the area. This in itself has discouraged some private developers from going in and some private entrepreneurs and there has been many many dollars lost I think through bad plan ning or through improper planning. I don't think the Minister can deny that.

We can cite many many instances, and we realize that when you're going into a strange area that you're going to run into failures, and that's all fine and good to stand up and say we don't know what we're talking about because nothing was attempted before. I think there were attempts made in the past and there would have been a great many more made without going back 50 years and saying nothing was done because that's a pretty foolish argument. We all realize that times have changed in the last five and ten years even, in the north.

There's been a vast change up there and a vast change in the thinking not only of the local people but of the people in the southern part of the province. When all this is considered I think there's a genuine concern of everyone in Manitoba to see the north develop and lake its place in the economy of the province the way it should. We realize fully the problems in integrating the native people in our type of society or our type of work force and it certainly is wracked with problems. But to just brush it off and say that we have done this and we have done that is just quite not good enough.

I don't have to cite the cases one by one, the Minister is well aware of any number of them that have been undertaken that with a little more planning, a little more thought before they went in there and with a little more thought to taking the right people in to develop those programs, would have saved thousands and thousands of dollars that could have been spent on other programs.

Some of the funds that he might like to have in the coming year that aren't available could have been some of those funds that were lost or frittered away in past programs that were ill-advised or just didn't work out where with some more planning with the local people, possibly could have been a little more successful. It's interesting to hear the members opposite tell us how they're giving the control

2032 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. BrAKE cont'd) •• ••• of the local affairs back to the local people. And that's the way it should be, there's no question about that. But there's an awful lot of people down south beginning to wonder what is happening down here because you're taking more and more control away from the local municipalities. It just seems a little bit odd and they may be at cross purposes there to some degree. I don't think the people in the north will refuse their responsibility once they have the equipment to handle their own affairs.

Anyone that I've talked to up there, leaders in the north or Band chiefs, with no exception, they've all said we want to get the people back working, we don't want them on welfare. We have to have ways to have them employed whether it be fishing or trap ping or whatever. They want them employed in some way. The Minister quoted some instances the other day where it might have been better to have them do some manual task that maybe could have been done with a bulldozer but it would have kept them busy and kept them happier.

I can certainly support programs like that because I think the leaders up in the north country want their people working and doing something productive whether it could maybe be done a little quicker by a big machine but how do you get the big machine in there. You have to take all these costs into consideration and I don't think we can really mechanize them too infinitely up there. I think there are certain things they want to do on their own and they don't just want to stand by and watch the big machines do it all for them.

I think it might be better if they were given a certain amount of labour to do because through this they realize what the job is like. They realize what it's like to get a machine in to do the job. That way they're going to take more care of the machine when they do get it and more pride in the work that is being done. I fully endorse the remarks from this side because I think th e initiative for private development in the north has been taken away to a large degree and I'm not just speaking of mining companies now.

The mining companies will certainly develop the renewable resource that members opposite shout so loudly belongs to the people. Cer tainly it has to be gotten out of the ground before it's of any value to anyone and there certainly has to be a fair return come back to the people that share in that wealth. But when your tax load becomes so great that people refuse to go in there and take the ore out, that is not being a development policy for the north. No way, Mr.

Chairman, will you get me to support the program where the government should go in and develop all the ore bodies in the north because I realize it would be an utter disaster for the people of Manitoba and I don't want to see that at all. The dollars spent up there, many of them have certainly had to be spent and there's no question about it. I only say to the Minister that there could have been some more consultation; there could have been some more planning done.

Some of the dollars that have been lost, and I think lost foolishly, could probably have been saved and be used this year or next year and used to a far greater benefit to the people up in the north that certainly do require the facilities that they're getting and require them as quickly as they can. But I don't think you can rush in and throw money in there and expect that everything is going to happen overnight. The Minister has said on many occasions what a slow process it is to develop the right attitude to get them into the work force. That holds true for many many of the developments.

It just can't all happen overnight and I think the money could be spent a little more wisely. But, Mr. Chairman, we had indicated to the House Leader that we would have finished this this afternoon and we just haven't quite done that. Many of the things that I was planning on bringing up or covering have already been covered so there is no point in belabouring the arguments that have gone on before. So with that I will close my remarks on the Northern Affairs Department, Mr. Chairman, and the affairs of the north. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. KEN DILLEN (Thompson): Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I don't know quite where to start my remarks tonight. There's been so many things said from the other side of the House and I take issue with some of the remarks that are being made. I just want to refer members of the House back to March 6 or thereabouts in 1967 when the then Commissioner of Northern Affairs, who is the official or unofficial

Aptil 6, 1976 2033 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. KEN DILLEN cont'd) ••••• Leader of the Opposition - he was the Official Leader of the Opposition at that time, Mr. Lyon - was introducing the Estimates of the Commis sioner of Northern Affairs. He had a whopping $200,000 in 1967. You know it is interest ing to have the Member from Minnedosa stand before this House and say that he didn't lose a dollar, or from the seat of his pants say that he didn't lose a dollar. But there was nothing to be spent. When he was asked, you know, when he was asked: what is this money going to be spent for?

He said, well you know, a few wild dogs running at large, a few bridges to be repaired that have washed out in last spting's rain storm, and what else did he say here ?--(Interjection)--Well the Member from Minnedosa says: what was his staff? The staff has not changed; they have simply been transferred from the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, who was the member at that time, to move and are now the same people that the previous Leader of the Opposition was calling the civil ser vants that are running around in the north and condemning those same civil servants.

They are the same people who were in the Department of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs in 1967-68. Now let's just look back here on March 6th of 1967, and find out exactly what it says. Mr.

Lyon, who is the Leader of the Conservative Party, says, and I quote directly from Hansard; "It's an attempt to make government not only meaningful to these northern areas, which has not always been the case before either in the time of this government or in 1he time of its predecessor,. and so here we are with this new department with a com paratively modest vote, most of which is for salaties." And get this - the same thing that they were condemning the Minister for not four hours earlier this afternoon - "travel expenses." Do you know that just to cover the communities that have been discovered in the last 10 years would cost you $200,000 to get there.

I just wanted to make reference to those things because I have tobe a little easy on the Member for St. James. You know for somebody who has not been very far beyond the Petimeter Highway in Winnipeg to throw him into the responsibility of being the critic for Northern Affairs is a pretty unfair thing to do.

There were some remarks made this afternoon about the creation of dependency and I want to refer back to the historical development of Northern Manitoba and it goes back a number of years and it doesn't only apply to Northern Manitoba, it applies equally to agticultural Manitoba or any parts of the rural part of this province. One has to ask themselves when this dependency was created and we are being accused on this side of the House as being the people responsible for the creation of the dependency upon govern ment.

Did you know that for a number of years - and there is an ex-RCMP officer who had massive responsibility in northern Manitoba saying, that's right. Here is the guy that had to have the Indians show him the way in Northern Manitoba while he was an RCMP officer and he had to have the Indians care for his dogs in Northern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. Does the Honourable Member for Swan River have a point of order? MR. BILTON: The Indians of Northern Manitoba never showed me the way, they showed me the way in the Northwest Tertitoties before the Honourable gentleman was born. MR.

DILLEN: Well at least we have an admission on one part. But you have to remember as well that the same Indians that showed you the way had to look after yom dogs, had to find the food for your dogs as well as feed you while they were showing you the way.--(Interjection)-- MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. Order please. MR.

DILLEN: You know that people in Northern Manitoba, and I suppose Northern Canada, at one time in their life were completely self-sufficient just as people in other developing parts of the world were self-sufficient, and what preceded this depend ency/ First of all the missionaries came in and changed the whole pattern of life, the whole way of life; changed the values of the people who were living in that area as well.

The Hudson Bay Company--(Interjection)--You know the Member for Swan River is making reference to the Hudson Bay Company but the very existence of the Northwest Mounted Police and the RCMP was for the purpose of protecting the interests of the Hudson Bay

2034 April 6, 1976 SUPPL Y -NORTHERN AFFArnB (MR. DILLEN cont'd) • • • • • Company in Northern Manitoba. They ca me there showing the palms of their hands saying, we're here to protect the interests of the people. We know who they were coming to protect. I was born under those circumstances. I was born on an Indian Reserve in Ontario. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. Order please. MR. DILLEN: I went back to the reserve that I came from last year, and this is in good old Blue Tory Ontario, and they had a program going there.

Well first of all we got into a discussion with my godfather who I hadn't seen for a number of years. He's a third or fourth cousin but he's also my godfather. I said, ''What are you doing these days?'' You know, to start small talk. He said, "Oh the government is running a course here on the Indian Reserve and I'm taking

part in that course." I said, ''What are you learning?" He said, "I'm learning silkscreening." You know here they were on the north shore of the Georgian Bay teaching a course in silkscreening when the nearest silkscreening shop is 250 miles in one direction and 300 miles in the other. What are they teaching there? Silkscreening. Isn't that enough? But that is so typical. But I want to get back a little bit to, you know, how the dependency was created.

I can only relate it back to my own experience and the discussion with the elderly people that I know both from my own community and from the communities that I visit period ically in the north and they were self-sufficient at one time. You know, the end of the First World War came and I believe that the Federal Government of the day had a whole bunch of senior army officers that they didn't know what to do with --(Interjection)--and retired RCMP officers. They said, well we've got just the thing for you guys. We're going to make you Indian agents.

And they sent them off into the hinterlands to every small community and made them all Indian agents.--(Interjection)--You know the Honourable Member from Minnedosa says that these people were all businessmen. A MEMBER: Remittance men. MR. DILLEN: Remittance. A MEMBER: You wouldn't know what that was. MR. DILLEN: Remittance men. I guess they were remittance men. That's how they created their dependency in the first place.

They were there for the purpose of handing out nothing but welfare and once they were able to get the dependency created upon them, then the people-- (Interjection)--Well, the Honourable Member from Minnedosa obviously wants to make a speech. He makes his best speeches from his seat. MR. CHAmMAN: Order please. Order please. I would refer all honourable members to our Rule 42.

It says, ''When a member is speaking no member shall inter rupt him except to :raise a point of order or a matter of privilege." The honourable member who now has the floor has the tight the same as any other member to continue to make his remarks without interruption. If any other member cannot control the urge to interrupt I suggest he step outside until he can control himself. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. DILLEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Even now I don't see that your remarks are being heeded all that much. I was trying to get to how this whole question of dependency was created.

It's obvious that people don't want to listen to it because the truth hurts a little. Then people started to read a little bit and they found out that they were operating under what is called the British North America Act and they found out that there were certain features in that Act which gave them certain tights and powers and the Red Power advo cates of the Native movemen t started to press. Yes, and the labour movement. They started to press to have the people who had the responsibility fulfill their responsibility to the letter and intent of the regulation. As a result of that, dependency was increased.

The Department of Indian Affairs was expanded and we have an even greater dependency being created today. But the people now are starting to realize what this dependency has created. It has created one of the most horrendous conditions that exist anywhere in this province or any other province. The northern parts of Ontario are no exception, where drinking seems to be the normal course of a day. It's difficult for people to remain permanently

April 6, 1976 2035 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIDS (MR. DILLEN cont'd) •• ••• employed in spite of all of the efforts of government to make jobs available and to have a referral system utilized in the communities to make access to the employment that exists. We are being accused of having an open cheque book in Northern Manitoba. I have never heard anything so ridiculous in all my life. There are more constraints on the methods of expenditure of public funds in Northern Manitoba than there is anywhere else in this province or anywhere else in Canada.

The expenditures of public funds in Northern Manitoba receive even greater scrutiny than they receive any place else. If there isn't concrete results from that scrutiny or from those expenditures the people on this side of the House jump down on us with both feet. But when they are talking about providing - like the Member for Assiniboia this afternoon was talking about the need for some kind of financial institutions in the remote part of the province - well let me ask the Member from Minnedosa where the Royal Bank is in the northern remote communities?

There isn't one Royal Bank or any other kind of bank anywhere outside of the major centres of Northern Manitoba. --(Interjection)--They're not anywhere in the remote communities either. The only place that they will move into is where there is huge pay cheques to cash. --(Interjection)--Well, you know, I didn't know that the Minister's Estimates extended beyond the borders of Manitoba. --(Interjection)- Yes, big pay cheques; big oil company pay cheques.

That's where the bank will go, But they will not go to remote communities of 3, 000 people or more or 2, 000 people or more in any community in Manitoba that's north of the 53rd parallel. --(Interjection)--Well the Member for Minnedosa says that is not true. If he can name me one community north of the 53rd Parallel in Manitoba where there is a Royal Bank. --(Interjection)--! said a remote community. There is no financial institutions whatsoe ver.--(Interjections)-Well at least you're starting to recognize that there is a problem. Where is the nearest bank to Woodlands?

How can we encourage the use of money, Well you know, we don't have a--(In terjections)--Look what it's done to St. James. There's an attitude on the part of this side of the House that what the Provincial Government is doing in Northern Manitoba is discouraging private development.

Well I'm going to tell you that - and I'm sure that we'll hear this when we go through the Estimates of the Department of Industry and Commerce - that there are more small businesses, family owned operations, in Northern Manitoba that are receiving technical assistance from the Department of Industry and Commerce than ever existed before. Show me one pro gram that the Conservatives had for providing any assistance to family owned or small businesses operated in Northern Manitoba. Not one. Not one.

But I tell you if the International Nickel or Sherritt Gordon or Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting or those bandits that -took in CFI had just made a whimper for some assistance or a whimper of some tax concessions or a new road, or anything that was required, the Provincial Government of that day didn't hesitate for one minute to run to their aid. If they had the sniffles, they wiped their nose. You know, the Churchill Pre-Fab Plant has received a lot of scrutiny in this House for the past three or four years.

And at least the previous member, the previous Leader of the Conservative Party recognizes that something had to be done. But how many times did the expenditure and the activity of the military establishment in Churchill receive any scrutiny for the activities that they had going there? And I can tell you what it was like. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): It's just a small point of order but I would ask the honourable member to consider how many times did the Department of National Defence's Estimates appear before this Chamber or any opposition.

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. DILLEN: But that's an example, I am simply illustrating that as an example that if one were to examine the waste in manpower, and the conditions that existed in the town while the military establishment was the major employer in that community, one knows the difference then of what I am talking about. But you would think to hear you

2036 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY -NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. DILLEN cont'd) ••••• people on that side of the House that the government is the only people that lose money in Northern Manitoba. Whether you pay for it in taxes or whether you pay for it in any other manner, you're going to pay fo r it in the end, whether it is International Nickel that loses it, whether it's Sherritt Gordon that loses it, whether it's the Hudson Bay Company that loses, or if it's the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting that loses it, you're going to pay it anyway.

You know that International Nickel company based on their own competent engineer ing expertise built a railroad between Thompson and Soab Lake. Now the contractor based his estimate on the information that was provided to him by those engineers. The con tractor went ahead and built the roadbed and when he added up his costs after the contract was complete he had gone $6 million over estimate. $6 million over estimate.

So the contractor made a statement of claim in an attempt to recover the $6 million that he lost because he felt that he had submitted his tender honestly based on the information that had been provided to him by the mining company. International Nickel refused to pay. It ended up going to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court awarded the company the $6 million. But that was a $6 million loss. You know, you never hear of mining com panies.

I believe it was on the business column of the Winnipeg Free Press at one point in time but about two column inches of a report that the Supreme Court of Canada had made this award, but there was a $6 million loss. The Soab Lake Mine is not operating because based on the engineering that had been done at that time, the reports were in accurate. The ore body was not as good as they thought it would be and they've had to close down the mine. There was a capital expenditure of millions of dollars that • • • You know, you would think that only government loses money. Well the mining companies lose money too.

The Soab North Mine is not operating for essentially the same reasons. And those are only the cases that I know of. But there are others where private industry has lost money and it wasn't because of the climate that exists now as a result of this govern ment being in power that those losses were made, that engineering and everything that occurred, occurred in the late Sixties but they had nobody to blame it on but themselves. They didn't come crying for handouts.

I want to get back to something else that was mentioned today by the Opposition and I'll tell you right now that the efforts of the Department of Northern Affairs over the past four or five years has to be commended. They have done just a magnificent job in the development of local self-government. And there's nobody that can go into a remote community today and try to put something over on the people that exist there.

You know that just a few short years ago, when I went into some of the remote communities, it wasn't unusual to be the only person who was talking, that there was absolutely no feedback whatsoever from the participants at any meeting that occurred in the communities. But I can tell you now that that is not the case.

I can tell you now that the people will talk to you and they'll tell you what their concerns are and it's not the wild dogs in the community or the bridge that's washed out, they'll tell you what the con cerns are and they'll be able to do it in a manner that is a tribute to the activities of the Minister of Northern Affairs and his s1aff in the community development process. You know for a group of people who have received the criticism that they have received over the past four or five years, you know to continue to be dedicated to the job that they are doing is really something to be admired.

Even those that were hold-overs from the previous administration are really putting in the kind of effort that is necessary. It didn't matter to us, I don't believe it matters to me. I have seen no evidence in Northern Manitoba where there has been any effort to discourage private development, not one. The door has been laid wide open for private development. The Member for Minnedosa displays a terrible and tremendous ignorance of Northern Manitoba and he displays it from the seat of his pants.

You know he asks the question, ''Why isn't there more exploration crews in Northern Manitoba?" I can't give you an answer as to the number of exploration crews that are in the north, nor can I tell you how many there are in South America; I can't tell you how many there are in Guatemala; I can't tell you how many there are in Indonesia or New Caledonia or

April 6, 1976 2037 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. DILLEN cont'd) ••••• Australia but I can tell you that there are more there than there are in Northern Manitoba. You know exploration in any part of this country is geared directly to the price of copper. International Nickel Company shouldn't be called a Nickel company, it should be called the International Copper and Precious Metal Company. As the price of copper goes down so goes exploration. If it's more advantageous to explore in other co'.l!ltries that's where exploration will go.

But it just seems horrendous that the kind of political atmos phere that the people on that side of the House would have us create in Northern Manitoba would be the same kind of political atmosphere that is under rililitary dictatorships in South America because that's where the mining companies seem to thrive. They seem to operate far greater under that kind of a system than they do under a democracy because dictatorship, the Mafia and mining exploration are compatible with one another. That is why.

Some reference ·was made here this afternoon with regard to Saunders Aircraft and you'd almost believe that the people on this side of the House wanted that company to survive. They kicked it; they knocked it; they did everything but pull the rug out from underneath that company from this side of the House. If there is anything that destroys private enterprise anywhere it is to have people like they are on this side of the House continuously bringing that and subjectin g it to the kind of - well it's scrutiny and it's tor ture for the people who are trying their best to do a job.

Somebody said that there was no tourist development in Northern Manitoba. It's obvious that they have not been by Sasagiu Rapids, the Sasagiu Rapids Lodge. --(Interjec tion)--Well that guy came from The Pas, got a piece of land on the bank of the river. It didn't prevent him from obtaining financing to go ahead and build the lodge. He received loan assistance where it was available from the government to proceed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The honourable member's time has expired. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, my place as a member of the Law Amendments Committee is in another room but I've waited patiently to say a word or two if I may and the Honourable Member for Thompson, Mr. Chair man, is rather a hard man to follow. I've said privately that he means well and he does a good job and while he and I are politically polls apart, I think he runs off at the mouth a little bit to make his point.

Nevertheless I realize that the Minister's salary is dangling, as to whether it will be a dollar or otherwise, but I want to assure him on this side of the House that we have no problem in that respect, I think he'll get his full salary. Mr. Chairman, this to me is the kick at the cat and I'm sure the Minister will appreciate what I am going to endeavour to say in my own humble way. I've taken

part in this debate on several occasions and I don't want to rake over old straw. I just want to say that I'm rather disappointed that the Minister, who is well aware of whJ.t's going on in his department, I think he's proved that by his endeavours to answer the questions on this side of the House. I mentioned ambulance service and I have reason to believe that that service is being abused, and of course when I broug.llt up the question he said that this would come under the De partment of Health and I intend to bring up the question at that time. I would refer to our report of 1970 and, Mr.

Minister, that to me is still, as I said at the time that this report was adopted, that there were 27 recommendations and there was enough work in this report for any gove rnment - not only this government but any government - for the next ten years to do something for the people of Manitoba. I have no hesitation in saying that the Minister in his replies has indicated that a tremendous thrust has been made, but he's got to admit that there's a tremendous waste.

I notice in this report that there was a recommendation made in 1970 that a senior citizens' accommodation should be provided for the Native people of Northern Manitoba. Whether he has this in mind or not is entirely up to him but I would remind him that that is still on the books an:l it is still a direct necessity of those people in Northern Manitoba. I mentioned the other day about the Cranberry Portage establishment. He didn't give us any opinion as to any thoughts that the department had in mind insofar as the use of this establishment for Northern Manitobans, particularly as the student population has

2038 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. BILTON cont'd) •• ••• dropped off dramatically by the fact that the government has seen fit to develop schools throughout the areas of Northern Manitoba. I would again get a little parochial and talk about Pelican Rapids. I would ask him in all sincerity to come to some conclusion, whether the Federal Gove=ent go with it or not, that the people of that area be assured that they are going to be provided with a road compatible with their needs into that area at all seasons of the year.

As the matter stands right now, as I explained earlier in the debate, it has always hung on the fact as to whether or not the Federal Government would make their contribution and the Provincial Gove=ent has always been hesitant in making their effort to give those people access to the normal Highway No. 10.

I listened with considerable interest to the Honourable Member for Thompson when he talked about my efforts with the RCMP and I want to make it abundantly clear that during my service in the Northwest Territories, the Indian people who I was associated with through those years and they were the best years of my life, were the finest people I ever could be associated with. We didn't have the problems in those days that we're being confronted with now. They were contented. One of the things that amazed me the other night in the remarks of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon was he talked about trapping and fishing.

There's nothing comes easier, Mr. Chairman, to those good people in Northern Manitoba. They are a contented people when they are left alone. They will find their own way. They will make their own way and as has been pointed out by the Honourable Member for St. James, the open cheque book is not the answer. The Honourable Member for Thompson and the Honourable Member for Flin Flon, if they will think of this in depth, those people have their own way of life and even to this day they're not prepared to join our society as such and we should not be pushing them.

My honourable friend from Flin Flon took the occasion to downgrade my honour able friend, Bud Simpson. Mr. Chairman, that gentleman couldn't even button his shoes, couldn't even lace his boots. I am standing here tonight to say that Bud Simpson gave the best years of his life for the people of Northern Manitoba. The people of Northern Manitoba knew him sufficiently well to send him back to the Federal House for sixteen years and it doesn't behold the Honourable Member for Flin Flon to belittle the efforts of that honourable gentleman regardless of how he feels about him personally.

He chose the wrong place and the wrong time to downgrade that gentleman, a great-grandson of Governor Simpson, of the Hudson Bay Company. Bud Simpson's name will go down in history, and your name will be forgotten, and don't you ever get over that. During the debate, Mr. Chairman - and I feel free to mention it at this time - the honourable member had the audacity to mention Her Majesty in this Chamber. Those that have gone before us, Mr. Chairman, have respected the Queen and all she has stood for, and it ill beholds, if I may repeat that word again, for the honourable gentleman to mention Her in this Chamber.

He may think it's fancy terms and when I called the honourable gentleman to order the other evening, the Honourable Minister of Labour, who has given lip service to the decorum of this House and all it stood for, and is considered the Dean of this House, and the First Minister has shown his respect in all degrees, and I honour him for it. But a backbencher has to mention Her Majesty in this House, and it should not be mentioned, and remember that, and that goes for all members of this House. He took exception to the Honourable the Lieutenan1rGovernor, and, Mr. Chairman, excuse me for bringing it up.

I feel that I must bring it up thinking of those that have gone before us in this Chamber for many many years, who have respected that office, and all of us regardless of personalities and regardless of how we feel personally should respect that position for what it is and respect the occupant of that position regardless of what has gone before. The honourable member makes much of the fact that he's a hard-rock miner. To me he's got more hard rocks in the head when he misbehaves himself in this House. It's not nice.

I believe the Honourable Member for Flin Flon knows better and at all times we must insist that the decorum of this House and the behavior of this House be held at

April 6, 1976 2039 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. BILTON cont'd) ••••• the highest degree and we respect the Chair for all it stands for. I was disappointed in the Minister of Labour the other night, in heckling me when I rose on a point of order to bring the Honourable Member to justice as I see it. God knows, the Royal Family have enough to contend with, and it's not the Queen. It's not the Queen but rather the Crown which she wears is symbolic of the unity of this Commonwealth to which we are proud to belong to. Let's never forget that situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR .

THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Thank you, Mr •. Chairman. I would be remiss if I didn't say a few words and prolong this debate because the Minister of Northern Affairs seems to be enjoying it very much. I will try and make it short, Mr. Chairman. I must say the critic did very well, the northern critic, especially a man from the south. I think the man from Minnedosa was good. I think the positions should have been reversed a bit. I think the Member from Minnedosa was more familiar with the problems than the gentleman who was the critic although I think he did a fine job.

I appreciate the remarks from the Member for Swan River although I don't go along with his thinking. We'll come to that later. The Member from Swan River, to me, Mr. Speaker, is a gentleman who'd recite the Gettysburg Address at a longshoremen's picnic if you get what I mean. He says the wrong thing at the wrong time. His timing is off but we won't go into that. I don't think we should debate personalities.

What he believes in and what I believe in are two different things and after all we have young people - oh, they've gone - we had young people here who will listen to this debate and I think we should try and make it as educational as possible and add something to the con versation. I will have you know, Mr. Chairman, that no one respects the decorum of this House more than I. The mining companies come in for a lot of criticism as such and I can see your point, that we should not tax them.

Now I'm all familiar with the HBM & S of course, the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company, who started their operation in 1928 on the large ore body found in the Flin Flon area. At that time worth a gamble. And one thing about Americans they will gamble. Our Canadian people who are well endowed with money do not take the gambles that our American brothers do for some reason. Americans should make good farmers; they're both in the gambling process. Through the years they developed this body; they put in roads; they put in lots of things.

They built houses; they build community clubs and they've done a lot of good. There's never been any reticence on my part on giving them credit where credit is due. But the attitude of the company at that time, of HBM & S, was a very fraternal attitude, very fraternal. The union was not a union. It was just a body that was there. The idea of the union was they'd pat you on the head and say run along and we'll look after you, and they did. It was good. That was the Witney interest. But later on they changed to the Anglo American, the Ang lo-American Corporation.

Possibly the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting is the smallest corporation that they had and things started to change. They wanted the pound of flesh and they started their tactics of getting rid of people. People who were due for pension and the elderly were let go and it changed. Then it became union versus company and here's where the strikes started. But I won't go into that either. I would say that they have got a large amount of profit out of this operation. Profit as high as 40 million, 35 million, 20 million, and when they had a had year or two, 18 million and I think this should be taxed.

The concessions that were given to those mines were excessive at that time and I think that the Member from Minnedosa will agree that we went over a little backwards, that we made it possible for them to pay their exploration costs. Three years tax free on the first three years of a new ore body. This was abused, Mr. Chairman, it was abused terribly because when a mine goes into production they will take all the ore they can to avoid this tax. They've gone to the extreme of one ore body and worked it for three years and sink another shaft in the same ore body for three more years. So they actually got six years.

So you know it's a mercenary thing. Who decides what to do with the profits? It's the shareholder who calls the shots. This is the way it goes. The shareholder has no consideration for the miners - I must

2040 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. BARROW cont'd) •• ••• say a miner is anyone who works in the mines. So someone must look after these people. The union does a pretty fair job. I think the union is strong and has beef and the government of course is leaning that way more or less. I think, I honestly believe that the tax that is imposed on these large companies are a good tax . Because it does lessen the tax burden. I don't want to go too far into that today either, Mr. Chairman, because the Minister of Mines Estimates come up and we can debate this kind of thing. The Native problem.

My friend from Swan River says leave them alone. You know it's too late to leave them alone. The harm has been done. If he would take the time to go up to my area and talk to some of these people, and especially the little kids and they can't talk English, they talk Cree, and when you go to visit them you don't knock at the door there, you walk in. The minute you walk in, the white man, you're strange, and it's an attraction for them and they get around you. Little gaffers.

They look at you and they can't talk to you, you can't talk to them but they give you a message and the message I see is: do something for us. We will do something. He comes up, the Indian drinking problem. There's a message there, Mr. Chairman. When you see a Native drinking himself into a state of unconsciousness or a coma he's telling you something. He's not happy with the situation as it is. --(Interjection)--! know that. You know we all do that. I think that the people on the other side of the House are more susceptible to that kind of thing. But--(Interjection)- What? No, no. Let's be nice, Jim.

A good example, Mr. Chairman - and I've brought this several times at several meetings - it's the case near Shamattawa where three little girls, nine, ten and eleven would sniff gas until they'd become unconscious. Two of them are still in the hospital, one very serious, one recovering, and one not so bad. But the idea, what are they doing? Why are they doing it? They were trying to tell us something. They're trying to tell us that they're not happy the way it is. They don't like that life. You know there's some thing there, the message is there. They want help.

We know the problems and I've said this over and over again. We know all the problems. But what we don't know are the answers. We are trying to come up with answers. With the co-operation of some of the people on the other side I think we can come up with the answers. The Member from River Heights the other day gave a speech on the North and the Metis situation, the Native situation and I admired him for it. I think it was one of the best speeches he has ever given. It was on the problem and he hit it right on the nose and he knows it, it's going to cost money. It's going to cost money.

There's no doubt about that. We'll go into that later, too, Mr. Chairman. But two little efforts in my area that I'm very proud of is the one in Sherridon with a population of 150 people, who needed ten houses. We could have gone in there with carpenters and the whole bit, or houses that you put together, you know, this kind of thing but the mayor said and the council said, let us build the houses. So they built ten log cabins. Eight for families and two for single people. The logs were cut, peeled, and built, and today those cabins are very attractive little cabins and they did it them selves.

There's a little step in the right direction. Cormorant is much the same. They wanted a causeway. They wanted a causeway because the end of the road is a quarter mile from town. They said, we will build it with a little bit of help and they're doing it. The logs are cut on their reserve or on their settlement; they're squared and they are doing the work themselves and I think that this is a step in the right direction. I think that we have made a mistake in trying to groove these people into a chan nel of where we would like them to go.

You know, we say that they are trappers but my Gawd how many trappers do we need? How many guys want to trap? Commercial fishermen. A fisherman's life is not a nice life, it's not a good life. They're capable of much more than that. But we'll find the answers sooner or later. You've brought up Frontier Collegiate several times and there is a good effort and I give you credit for that. We have gone down from 450 students maximum; we've gone down to 90. Ninety students where we could accommodate 450 and all the accom modations are there for those people only we don't have students. Well what is the

April 6, 1976 2041 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAms (MR. BARROW cont'd) ••••• matt..er with this? Why is it so low? For various reasons. They have built Grade Nines, Mr. Chairman, as you seem to be the only one who is listening to me, they've built Grade Nine classrooms in some of these places which lowers it down. But the main thing is those students of that particular calibre do not want our education. I have a plan which I'm going to go into with the Minister of Education's Estimates and I'm going to introduce it and I hope you support it.

The Member for River Heights said it's going to cost lots of money but this plan that I have involves five Ministers and with a rough estimate, if each Minister comes with his $250,000 of his Estimates, five times that much, is what? A million and a quarter. We could get on with this plan, the start of a five-year plan. Mr. Chairman, I have a lot more to say but the Minister's looking at me in such a way that I think I'll sit down and I thank you for your kind attention. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 97(a) (1)--pass.

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum. not exceeding $2,383,000 for Northern Affairs--pass. This concludes the discussion on the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. SUPPLY - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: The Department of Health and Social Development I believe is next. I would refer honourable members to page 25 in their Books. Resolution 56(a)(1) - the Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, because of the size and complexity of the Department of Health and Social Development I recognize that of necessity the members review of its Estimates for 1976-77 can be expected to be lengthy. In order not to delay the essential purpose of this process I will keep my introductory remarks as brief as possible. I look forward to the specific questions of the members and I will attempt to provide the fullest replies possible. Last year I announced a reorganization of the administrative structure of the Department of Health and Social Development designed to improve its efficiency and effec tiveness.

It is my impression that these alterations have proven their value by providing the department with greater flexibility in not only responding to the day-to�ay problems which face the staff but also with an improved method by which we can assess new pro gram proposals and weigh priorities. Part of our success in dealing with planning in a co-ordinated fashion has resulted from the creation of a departmental policy committee which includes all senior staff as permanent members. You will note that the Estimates before you, Mr.

Chairman, include a request to provide a small staff to assist the Policy Committee in reviewing medium and long-range planning options. This request represents an attempt to strengthen one portion of our re-organizational efforts which has demonstrated its value quickly and which has a significant impact on the overall direction the department will take in the future. If the reorganization has succeeded this . result can be attributed in large measure to the co operation and energy of the staff of the department. I'm especially grateful to my senior officials, including Dr. Tulchinsky, Mr. Johnstone, Dr.

Tavener, Mr. McLean and Mr. Hike!, as well as Mr. Edwards of the Health Services Commission for their dedication and service over these past months. I need not remind the members present in this Chamber that we are living in trying times and that the choices facing governments throughout Canada are becoming increasingly difficult. Of the multitude of decisions which a Provincial Government must make, perhaps the most difficult are those which involve its Health and Social Services. These include programs which affect the lives of our citizens who are in dis tress at very personal levels of their existence.

The pressure to expand such services a responsible government must listen and respond to but it also must set priorities and live within its means. Last year I described this process as finding the fine balance between cost con sciousness and service consciousness. I would be less than honest if I were to tell the

2042 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT (MR; DESJARDINS cont'd) • • • • • members that this task is becoming easier. In the face of rising costs and expectations it is an ever more onerous responsibility which we in this Chamber must share. When we concluded this review I believe all members will agree that the Department's Estimates reflect a sincere attempt to arrive at the most reasonable balance between service needs and cost constraints. Every effort has been made to limit the increase in our staffing request for the next fiscal year.

Our request for 1. 3 percent more in staff man years represents a vir tual no growth situation. On the other hand with rising costs anticipated in a number of areas, especially in the hospital field, we are requesting an overall increase of approxi mately 25 percent. The major contributing factors to this increase relate to those ser vices which, after review I am confident the members will agree, are essential to the health and well-being of our citizens. It is in this interest that the department could not stagnate. It is in this interest that the department could not stagnate.

For Health and Social Services to be effective they must be responsive to human needs and because these needs change over time new programs must be adopted and current programs must expend where it is appropriate to do so. I am happy to report that some of our recently developed programs have proven that they are responsive to the needs of Manitobans. The Home Care Program is working effectively throughout the province. This service has helped to reduce necessary insti tutional placement of the elderly by providing services to assist individuals to function in their homes.

It has provided doctors, hospitals and nursing homes with a major new link in the health care chain. The Home Care Program will continue to develop in 1976. The Children's Day Care Program has grown considerably over the past year. There are now 115 group centres and 80 family day care homes providing approximately 3, 500 licensed day care places for children. Recently changes were introduced into the fund:i11.g system for this program to assist in its development.

Improvements in the regu lations governing the Day Care Program has widened the population eligible for subsidy and thereby have assisted many mothers in the low income bracket to remain in the work force. In order to meet growing demands and challenges new thrusts will be made in other areas. Recently I announced a major redevelopment program for the Health Sciences Centre based in part on an exhaustive study completed by Drs. Graham Clarkson and Eugene Vayda.

This project, which will take several years to complete, will coincide with a redistn"bution of a number of acute care beds in Winnipeg and the construction of additional Personal Care facilities. Beginning this September a Children's Dental Program will be introduced in school divisions in a limited number of areas of the province. The initial response of those school divisions who will be involved has been highly co-operative and enthusiastic.

In addition a special advisory committee consisting of permanent physicians in the fields of obstetrics, pediatrics and public health as well as appropriate lay members will be reviewing the state of maternal and child health in Manitoba with a view to sub mitting recommendations on possible improvements. This clearly is not an exhaustive list, Mr. Chairman, but it is indicative of our desire to promote the development of Health and Social Services in areas of the most acute concern and need.

I believe as we proceed item by item through the Estimates of our department the members will observe that we have succeeded in demonstrating our intent to show restraint where possible and to move forward with dispatch where necessary. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 56(a)(2) -the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOID BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Minister for the introduction of his Estimates. I share his concern that we are living in trying times.

We know that the cost of health and social development, health and welfare, within the entire Dominion of Canada has increased greatly and I'm sure that all of us are very concerned about this. He mentioned the pressures that were being put on him to expand some of these projects and I am glad that the Minister is taking heed to the trying times that we are living in and possibly is going to exercise some restraint and keep in mind the rising costs.

April 6, 19 76 2043 SUPP L Y - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVE LOPMENT (MR� BROWN cont'

d) He said that the hospital budget probably would be increasing by about 25 percent and we realize that some increas e would be warranted and we'll be coming back to that later on. I presume , Mr. Chairman, that we will be going back to the Minister' s salary at the end of the Estimates and that we'll have opportunity to debate every project and enlarge on the entire Estimates at this particular time so I would more or less like to limit myself at this time to (a)(2) which is Salaries and I'd like to make a few comments on the office of the Deputy and the operation of his particular office.

First of all I would like to ask the Minister how many people are involved in this Salary of $167, 700. I wonder if the Minister could tell me what each of these person's function is . I believe that this particular department is responsible for the overall plan ning, programming and policy-making of the Department of Health and Social Development and the operation of the Minister's office and certainly all policy must go through this department to the Minister.

Many of the directives and programs coming out of this office are utterly con fusing because so much of the department's activity seems not to be covered in the Act. The office of the Minister is continuously implementing changes in the health care delivery system without these changes first receiving the necessary legislation and approval of this House. Changes are made and no opportunity is given to debate these changes in the Legislature.

When there was a change in programs or policy certainly it must go through the office of the Deputy Minister to the office of the Minister who then should inform the House and have these programs approved and pres ented to the Legislature in the form of bills so that they could be debated. I find, however, Mr. Chairman, that I am not the only one that is confused. A great deal of confusion also exists within the department. Your own department, Mr.

Minister, cannot determine the policy of your department because so much of the activity is not covered or has not received the sanction of the necessary legislation and is not incorporated in the Act. The office of the Minister is responsible to the people of this province for an expenditure of $395, 063, 100 and he will be responsible if any of this amount is spent illegally. In my opinion the Act needs a complete review and I would strongly recom mend to the Minister that this be done in the near future. Areas of confusion in particular exist in the Pers onal Care, the Home Care, the Guest Homes, etc.

What is the program or what is the policy, Mr. Minister? Why Guest Homes ? Are Guest Homes legal? The Minister has never given us any explanation. Another area of confusion is community clinics or community health centres , district health board and district health and social development systems . Are all these separate entities, Mr. Minister, or are they one and the same thing? I am confused, Mr. Chairman , and so is the Minister's department and so is the general public.

In no way can the Minister 's department be run efficiently unless clear-cut directives are issued to his executives and these clear-cut directives don't seem to be forthcoming. What is ambulatory care ? Is there a need for this servic e? Don't people have access to clinics to see their doctors? Is this not a duplication of ser vice ? How can the Minister justify this expenditure? Does the Minister not practice any restraint what soever in this particular department? On whose advice is the Minister going to divide the City of Winnipeg into seven regional areas .

Is this not going to create a tremendous duplication of administrative services ? Is this going to assure anyone of better health care? This is very doubtful. I think it is difficult enough for the Minister to justify regional areas in rural Manitoba. I would just like to elaborate a little bit over here in the particular area that I reside in, the south central area. One of the difficulties that are experienced at least by the smaller communities in that particular area, is that you have your large centres like Portage la Prairie which is the head office and then you have Morden which is a sub office.

Now I don't think that these people are experiencing too much difficulty. But then you take other towns like Manitou, like Winkler, Altona and Morris and so on which

20 44 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT (MR. BROWN cont'd) ••••• are all under this area. There is a great lack of com munication and this is caused mainly through, I would say, your mail delivery service. If, for instance, you have an X-ray reading and it's necessary for you to have this done, let's say from Winkler to Morden - the towns are only seven miles apart - your mail goes first from Winkler to Winnipeg; then it goes from Winnipeg to Morden. That's the next day. Then the next day it goes from Morden to Winn ipeg and the day after that it goes from Winnipeg to Winkler.

It takes four days. Now if they'd just take these X-rays and send them to Winnipeg they'd have them back the next day. The same thing pertains to blood samples. All the towns in that particular area are in the same boat and rm sure that every area in Manitoba is experiencing this difficulty. So when you ask the public and these particular areas what benefits do you derive out of your regional health care system, they'll think a while and about the only thing they're going to come up with is immunization. That's the one program that stands out in their minds.

All the rest of it they can't really see any particular benefit. I would say that if immunization is going to be one of the main areas of benefit that we're receiving in these particular areas I would say it's a very expensive program. The practicality of policies and programs must be taken into consideration. Dividing Winnipeg into areas cannot be justified and I would like to suggest to the Minister that he is listening to some rather questionable advice. Again I would like to reiterate, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister seems to run his department mainly through Orders-in Council, and I would hope that when there is a change in policy or a new policy is implemented that we would have an opportunity to debate these new programs or changes in programs. Thank you. • • • • • continued on next page

April 6, 1976 20 45 SUPPLY - HEA LTH MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR . DE SJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I must admit and I'm at a loss to really under stand what my honourable friend is talking about . He certainly is not very specif ic . He's covered the waterfront and he 's suggested that my advice hasn't been too good, But I don't know where he 's getting his advice but I would hope that he should try to understand what he 's saying . First of all he stated about a policy , he seemed to give the impression that what we do in this department is illegal, and he is talking about the change s in one Act.

Well we're regulated by approximately 32 0 Acts . So if the re's something that - and we have to go along with these Acts and if there is any change s we'll bring change s; we'll bring change s; we'll bring legislation and it will be debated here . There is no legislation that originates and terminates in the Ministe r's off ice, not even in that department, Mr. Ch airman. I don't know exactly what my honourable friend is talking about . I will try to ed ucate him to let him know, because he certainly is entitled to know how we function in the department .

I might say that we have in this departmen t what we call an Internal Policy Committee , which are the senior people of the department - and we have some pretty good battles when that comes in, that is the department . If we are told from above , if we are told by the Ca binet to develop a certain program or a Sub-C ommittee of Ca binet has to develop a program, we put people on it immediately, we develop the programs . At times it is helped with other groups. in government, such as the staff of HESP, also the staff of Planning and Priorities. So we look at the whole picture not only at that one program.

It comes back to our Policy Committee where it gets a very thorough going over . It has been a diff icult thing in this program because we have dedicated people who certainly will try to direct the governmen t , and so on, in certain areas . But we have people there that are representing our Reso urces Branch who will look at '.vhat the cost will be, what the cost will be when the program is fun ctioning, what will lock us in, and so on. We have people who are responsible for the programs, the planners , and so on, who will tel l us what the program is on pa per.

We have evaluation of these programs, and so on, and finally , once it receives approval of the Policy Committee, it doesn't fi nish there , it has to go through Cabinet , or most of the time through HESP and HESP will look at the overall policy agai n, eithe r recommend it to Ca binet or suggest that we change it, do not proceed with it. There is also another department of government, Management , who look to see that everything is done accordingly, that we follow the Ac ts, and so on, and this. is the way it functi ons . So there is no way that we, by Order-in-C ouncil that we decide policies at all.

I would like my honourable friend to really elaborate and tell me what he really means because as I say there are many Acts and then th ese things •• • today I'm stand ing in front of you to be scrutinized . This is the Opposition 's day to be able to try to dig, and so on, to keep us on our toes . I welcome this , and I ce rtainly will try to give you all the information that I can. If not I'l l find out from the people that have more knowledge than I have that are sitting in front of me . We will give you the information and I think that I'm not want to try and gloss something over if we're having trouble .

I admitted last year that we had problems in certain areas , and I' d be a damn fool and a damn liar if I pretended that everything is perfect in this department. We have some concerns now that we're looking at that were weak and we 're going to try to rectify . But this is the way that it is done . If anything, I think this department probably has a more thorough study of this than most of the other departments • Now my honourable friend talked about, you know, he mentioned a word here and there but not specific enough to know exactly what his concern is.

He talked about the division of the city in diffe ren t districts . Does he know what these districts are all about I ask my friend, do you know what the se people do that you're talking about that are duplicating, and so on ? Do you really understand what you said ? What is really your concern about this division of the city in diff erent areas ? I won't embarrass my friend , I won't ask him to explain this . I'l l try to explain it for him ,- -(Interje ctions )-- I beg

2046 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY - HEA LTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••••• your pardon? No I think that he 's entitled to know and I think that some of the information he's going, it 's not thorough enough. It's obviou s that he 's going in a certain area to get some of the information, and I welcome that . That's part of democracy. When I was the health critic in that opposition, I got my in formation wherever I could, and I got some pretty damn good information at tim es . Now these districts, we have a system where more and more were trying to deliver the service for the people of the province of the areas.

And we, and this is a long time ago, we approved a single unit delivery . And this is: we have an Assistant Deputy Minister that is responsible to deliver the service because the Commission is more of an insurance group; they decide where we're going to build the hospitals, and so on, but these hospitals are administered by boards, and so on, but in programs in our departme� the programs , the government nms the program. We have certain people that bring the expertise that are responsible for the policy for the working out of these programs and then it is delivered by our people in our regions.

And this is what we 're trying to do, to not duplicate , not to slow down, but to improve the situation that we are having people as part of a team, and they deliver everything. All our programs, and so on; we have social workers out there . We have, would have to have better groups. The legislation that my friend was talking about is legislation that we brought in last year . We haven't used it yet, we're working with th em. I was told last year don't plan alone, talk to the people in the area, and this is what we 've done.

We 've talked to these people and then they will, the community will take this thing over and our people as they wish, as the demand is there , will transfer some of these people to that com munity . And we would hope to see - maybe it's a dream, but we 'll see an area where we 'll have acute beds, we'l l have personal care beds, we 'll have the Home Care Program, we 'll have the Dental Program. We'll have ;many of these programs and it 'll be run by these people who will be working for the communi ty.

So if that is wrong, if you feel if you have concern that the government is trying to take over, and so on from the com munity, you're absolutely wrong. It's exactly the opposite that we 're trying to do. So this is not an area. I said that I would be the first one to admit, and there 's a lot of them , many areas where there is weakness in the department that we have to shore it up , that we have to come with the program. But this , Mr. Ch airman, is certainly not one of the areas. Now I think that my honourable friend - well that covers the district . Last year we weren't very pleased with Home Care.

Home Care is a very im portant program so we 've improved Home Care and we have a very good Home Care Pro gram. I didn't bring the file. I' ve had many letters and many people that are congratu lating us, that are very happy with our Home Care Program. Day Care. Day Care was a weak program last year . I took a roasting on that , and we deserved it . It wasn't all of our making. We had difficulty with the Federal Government. And I say now without hesitation at all that we probably have the best Day Care Program in the country .

And it is a program that will help, we would hope, help provide care for the children, especially if it's a parent alone where the parent can join the work force instead of being on welfare , and so on. And there is some assistance for some of these people and it 's working. It 's not perfect, far from it, but it 's working quite well and we want to provide it unde r the same guidelines, and so on. Some people would like us to have a universal program on day care. I pers onally resist that .

I don't think that people should get married, bring children into the world and then dump it on the State , that we take all care, that we take the responsibility, and so on. But it is there to do a job. Some people need this kind of help and we're very pleased to do it . As I say, we 've pushed for reforms with the Federal Government. The other provinces are quite happy and now it is a program that can work. Last year it could not work because we had to pay a certain per diem. You could not finance everything by a per diem because the people couldn't afford to go .

And then you still had to have a reasonable per diem because then you'd be subsidizing the people that really can afford. You can subsidize people in the $20, 000 - $2 5, 000 bracket. So we have start-up grants and we have maintenance grants , and we 've increased the maintenance grants . Now that we 've had more co-operation from the city in the licensing of these day care facilities

April 6, 1976 2047 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••••• and there's still a long way to go on that . We've worked quietly in some of the programs, some of the medical supplies and home care equipment . We have some of that . We have some, the wheel chairs - as you know last year we went into the motorized wheel chair, we have some of that ; that was a new program last year . I think we have about 40 chairs and we'll probably buy another 40 this year, and so on. So this is something . We are moving in a Dental Program for the children also. Now we will start fairly slow.

We've negotiated and worked very hard, and we had many many meetings with the den tal profession but it came down to that in the final thing , that we do not agree. They have a right to disagree. I certainly want to see proper standar0s. I've invited them to sit with us on committees that will decide the standards but the dental profession would like to have the program, hire the staff, and so on, and be responsible for that . Now many of you, excuse me, through you, Mr.

Chairman , many of the members of the opposition are candid and are saying to me , the same as members on this side, what are we going to do in this field? Where can we plateau a bit ? You know, we can't reduce too much, but where are we going to plateau this service ? And this is an area that we're trying to go ahead and do exactly that . So this is som ething that we certainly have to be careful. My honourable friend wanted to know - I don't know if I'm getting all his answers. I was flabbergasted when he started • • • the whole thing and not being specific.

And if I misunderstood him I hope that he will tell me exactly what he 's concerned about, about implementing policies, and so on. The policies are here. I also tried last year, and I can tell my honourable friend and I think he'll be the first one to admit it , that any time that we've had a certain policy, certain press conference, that I've invited my honourable friend. I don't know how often that has been done but we've invited the mem bers of the opposition. In fact we hope to have something to announce, som ething that many people have been concerned about, personal care beds .

We made this announcement last year; we've announced that . Now I will have something concrete during the Estimates to tell you how many personal care beds we're going to have , and probably where we're going to go, and there's many in it, and this is not something that we've announced now. This is some thing when I was at the Commission we set up a committee on beds to realize where the problem was , and so on. We identified that , and not too long ago when my own honour able friend was yelling, not too long ago was chastising the former Minister of Health for saying that he had too many acute beds .

And that's not too long ago. If you flip back on your record and on your scrap book you will find that . Now we said no, this is not the kind of beds we need, we have to provide other kinds of beds that will not be as costly and let these people go in the proper beds and then you will release these acute beds. Now nothing has been said, and I'm not going to start criticizing the Minister in Ontario. I admire the man I think he had a helluva lot of guts to do what he did.

I don't say that I agree with him in everything he 's done but in general he's gone out to try and bring a little bit of sense in the expenditure in this field. He has closed some beds, and so on, and that had to be done . Well here in Manitoba we are not going to close too many acute beds but we do, we are closing some ; and we are replacing some and increasing some of the personal care beds . And in the rural areas when somebody comes in and they want a personal care hospital in the rural area, and they already have their hospital, we would like to see them together with the acute bed.

Our staff, if you remember last year, I was trying to get more staff that we can go on and discuss with these people and plan with them, and we 're doing that now. Most of the time there's good agreeme nt, good feelings good co-operation, and they close , we remodel or build certain personal care beds and closed some of the acute beds . I received a letter from one of the • • • The member here was concerned about his hospital because the staff was going do wn, but the patient days are going down all the time because they are not taking care of the same population. We have to do something in this area also .

Yes, and the Orders-in-Council: My honourable friend said something that we

20 48 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY - HEA LTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••••• legislate by Order -in-Cormcil. All Orders-in-Cormcil are under the authority of the Legislature and we do not form policies by Order-in-Cormcil at all because they are not permissible under statutes, we must come in and bring some amendments to the Act or new Acts . Now is my honourable friend saying that the department has no authority, the government has no authority to advance policies , and so on? This is my job. This is the job of Cabinet, this is the job of government.

And definitely we 'll bring policy, and we'l l keep on bringing policies, and we will be scrutinized in this House, and we 'll be criticized in other areas • We will do that . We've done that in the past� I would hope. I can say to my honourable friend that right now I've infor med my department that I don't want any new programs . I want us to stop for a while to look what we 've got, to improve - we've got a long way for instance to go in the care of children. We have done some extensive work on that .

We have talked to differen t people and we probably will have to take steps that will not be popular with everybody, but it is something that has to be done. So I reject, Mr. Chairman, the fact that this department is not acting legally or that we haven't got the right to bring in policies, or certainly I will defend the right of the opposition to criticize, to scrutinize these policies, ask questions, and debate and dis cuss in this House .

Not only in this House, but I will con tinue to when we have certain press conferences, which I hope that in th e fairly near future we have facili ties that I can bring in the House, differen t slides and that , that I would like to invite the critic of the member s of the Opposition, and others that might want to come, to be there at fir sthand to be able to, not only get their information from me but to discuss with staff, and so on, and to tell you where we're going to get, how we're going to build the personal-care beds, an idea of let's say the next five -year program in these beds , and so on.

I hope that we will satisfy them at least that we 're going in the righ t direction and we're doing our best to provide for services for the people of Manitoba while trying to keep the lid on, not to be too extravagant and to go too far. Before I sit, my honourable friend wanted to know the people that were involved in that . Those are not necessarily memb ers of the Policy Committee those people in the. Salaries, there 's 13 in there. There's the Deputy Minister and myself, and then there 's the assistant and there's mostly clerical support.

Now this is another thing that is - I'm not saying it's better, I like it better, but it's a little diff erent than other departments . As you know my off ice is not in this building because I like the team approach more than the Minis ter going through the Deputy Minister, and so on. It's a big departm ent, and so on, and we have very small quarters, but we have room for all our people here .

We have the Deputy Minister, the Associate Deputy Minister that 's responsible for resources, and to make darn sure that we don't spend the money that we haven't got and that we don't go too far , we don't lock ourself into money that we won't be able to aff ord, and so on, they are in the same area. There's a Chief Medical Consultant, he 's a doctor, who is also an assistant to the Honourable Minister of Corrections and is also the Chief Psy chiatrist responsible for policy on mental health, and so on, in the department.

There was a lawyer at the Commission who was in a corner out there , and I don't think that we were getting enough from him, we need him for the Co=ission, we need him for the department, so he will be moved there, and then we have five or six girls.

So in those 13 there's clerical support, there's seven girls that are working for these people that I've mentioned in that area; there 's the Deputy Minister and his Assistant and there 's mys elf, my Ex ecutive As sistant, my Special Assistant, and another person that is respon sible for the queries for the telephone calls that we get, and so on, wanting to know where their cheque is and so on. So I hope that this helps my honourable friend and if I did not rea lly rmderstand what he said I apologize, and if he tries again I'll try to give him a proper answer . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 56(a)

(2) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr . Chairman . I would like to thank the Minister for the answers that he has provided for us . I would just like to get back to the regional areas for awhile. It seems to me that the Minister does not realize that this is the first

April 6, 1976 20 49 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR . BROWN cont'd) ••••• time that he is reporting in this Legislature on regional areas and how he is hoping to set them up, but he was not very clear on just exactly on how he plans to set up the regional areas within the City of Winnipeg. Are they going to be set up in a nature similar to what the original areas are in rural Manitoba?

By the statemen t that the Minister just gave us it would seem to me that they were going to be set up by each community within each area, and it seems to me almost as if he's given me to understand that these are going to be volunteer workers that will be working in this particular area. Now I hope that the Minister will be able to elaborate just a little bit further on this. Like I say, that this is the first oppor tunity that we have had to discuss this particular area . When the Minister said that he had invited us out to press conferences , I remem ber one only and I'm certain that I'm correct in this .

I would like to correct the Minister that he invited me to the one where the Clarkson and Vayda Report was unveiled with the press . That is the only invitation that I have received from the Minister, and that one I did attend, and I am appreciative of the fact that the Minister is going to invite us to these press conferences because this is where we seem to be getting our information from; we have been receiving very little information in the House .

So I hope that the Minister is not going to be offended if we're going to ask questions, and maybe we're going to ask questions out of ignorance because in many circumstances we just have not received any report from the Minister and the reports that we are getting many of them is what we read in the newspap ers, and so that I hope that the Minister will be able to ela borate a little more than what he has up to now. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 56(a)( 2). The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS : Mr .

Chairman, I have just one contribution that I want to make to the considerations of this department's Estimates , and I appreciate , Sir, that I could prob ably make them either on the Minister's Salary, which we may not get to for a long time, and having dual committees sitting I may not have the opportunity of being here when the Minister's Salary is being discussed. I also appreciate that perhaps I could make some of the remarks under item, Resolution 59, Central Medical Services, which have to do more with the specific medical field or medical services. But I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that within the rules of the committee under the heading of Program Review, with which we're dealing with right now, the first item, right, Mr . Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on (a)

(2) Salaries in the Minister's office. MR. ENNS : Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Mr . Chairman, I have in this large department one page turned over too fast. I was on Page 26, which I thought you an nounced, dealing with Program Review. In that case, Mr . Chairman, I'll have to wait until we arrive at that point. I wanted to make some overall statements with respect to Program Review, programs in the entire health field , and with specific references to the field of medicine and in the relationship with the medical profession that I think is impor tant. I'll wait my proper time, Mr . Chairman. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, that will probably go under the Manitoba Health Services Commission, that's where we deal with the medical ••• MR. ENNS : Can the Minister indicate where that is in • MR. DESJARDINS: Well that's the last thing on Page 32, Resolution 63, you have Medical Program. If I may, before we leave that because I don't want my "lonourable friend from ••• Yes, the regions are an area in the city, we'll probably have an area director and the seven regional directors report to him, also, and then we have the region in the rural area.

They certainly are not volunteer people, they are people that are delivering the services, whatever services we will have in the department. We would hope that in that area - and that doesn't mean that they can't move from one area to the other, especially to see their doctors or in the hospital . I made that commitment last year that we are not going to have this type of regimentation and I don't intend to change my mind, but for home care, for child care in a lot of these areas that will be delivered by these people. They are emplo yees of the department, of the government, they are not volunteers .

20 50 April 6, 19 76 SUPPLY - HEA LTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'

d) Now I certa inly did not and do not and will never chastise my honourable friend for asking for information and I never will say that they're stupid questions , that's not what I mind , but I do resent the fact that my honourable friend again is saying that we ar' not giving him the informa tion . That is not correct and any MLA that has either come to my department or asked in a note have always been, as far as I'm concerned, any letter that I've received has been answered.

I intend to try to answer all the questions here an( we 've informed when the session is not sitting any new programs that we have , we have a press release. Now it's true that at times you want to take advantage of this opportunit to scrutinize and to ask more questions, and this is what we're here for. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHE RMAN (Fort Garry): Mr . Chairman, I had intended to say a few things in terms of a general overview with respect to the relationship between the Minister and the profession.

I take it from the direction that has been indicated in re marks just made by my colleague the Member for Lakeside and your concurrence that probably that consideration should be reserved to a point further on in the Estimates. However , the Minister himself referred to the Dental Program that is being readied and prepared for children, and although there is an item un der Resolution - I guess it's Resolution 58 (

m) entitled Dental Services, Sir, which is some distance on in the Estimates since the Minister made reference to it in his remarks I would like some direction as to whether we might be discussing that program and the approach that the Minister is taking, or not taking, with respect to the Dental profession at this point . If it's permissible to discuss it at this point, I would certainly like to discuss it at this point; if it has to be deferred until that item on the Estimates then I'll withhold my remarks.

But I think that there is need of an examination of the methods that the Minister is "undertaking" to meet and I use that term in quotation marks - with representatives of the dental profession and the degree to which he is seeking their advice and their counsel and their participation. I think the Minister will find that I'm in some conflict in terms of my opinion and his opinion as to just how much co-operation and consultation is taking place . MR. DESJARDINS: That well might be and I would welcome this debate and I would suggest that this • • • MR. CHAIRMAN: Order pleas e. Order plea se .

The honourable members are aware I'm sure that our rules do require us in Committee to discuss strictly those items that are before the Committee and the honourable member if he wishes to discuss dental services should withhold his remarks until we get to that item . The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . SHERMAN: Well I appreciate it, Mr. Chairman, The only reason I got onto it was because the Minister had mentioned it and I thought perhaps the subject was being opened up. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 56(a)(2) --pass; (a)(3) other Expe nditures. The Honourable Member for Rhineland , MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman . I wonder if the Minister could explain this item of $86, 900, othe r Expen ditures . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: It includes general office costs associated with Ministers and Deputy Minister's office , It also provides hospitality grants and funds for the Health and Social Devel opment Advisory Council. MR. CHAIRMAN: 56(a)(3)-- pass; Resolution 56(

b) Welfare Advisory Committee

(1) Salar ies . The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR. BROWN: Again, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many people are involved in this Salary of 47 ,3 00 and whether he can tell us what the function is of the various people involved. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: There are four of them. the salary of the Secr etary, two support staff and clerical assistants . I might as well when I'm on my feet, I think it would be better if I explaine d: e d y

April 6, 1976 20 51 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) • • • • • Under (2) it incl udes the general costs ass ociated with a committee and also includes funds for the salary of the Ch airman and Vice-Ch airman, plus fees paid to other members of the board. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Membe r for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: I wonder if the Minister would explain precisely what the Welfare Advisory Committee does in somewhat fuller terms than in the explanatory note .

That is , my question basically is as to whether the Welfare Advisory Committee is concerned with specific welfare appropriations , specific programs that are already in effect, or whether there is policy and planning with respect to additional welfare programs or substitute welfare programs that might be under contemplation in the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: The name could be misleading, Advisory Committee and it is more the appeal board, but of course they give us advice on the appeal that they've heard .

And I am pleased to say that the number of appeals are going down pretty well constantly. When this was started, well in 1970 there were 253 , it built up to 731 ; 933 in 1972 , and then it started going down in, 173 , 63 0; in 174, 41 3; and '75, 343. There are people that are not satisfied with the service that they're getting or, for instance, somebody that is on welfare, receiving assistance in some area, and so on, these people travel all across Manitoba , and so on, and the citizens can launch an appeal. MR .

SHERMAN: So this committee- actually deals with individuals, with specific grievances , but not with welfare programs as such. But with an individual's specific grievance where a program is concerneq and where it affects that individual. MR. DESJARDINS: ••• may see something that is repetitious, a problem, then they certainly will advise and suggest that we make some changes , and so on. And we certainly listen to them and at times try to rectify or to improve the situation. MR. SHERMAN: But generally they're not advising you with respect to welfare budgeting ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution (b)(l).

The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Yes, I just wonder if the Minister had any correspondence from municipalities with regard to this Appeal Board. I know that the Appeal Board is not the most popular with municipalities . I think the Minister probably realizes that because most of the decisions that they are reversing are those involving municipal welfare cases where possibly the municipality has for some reason or other seen fit that they would not be providing any further ass istance or any increased assistance to a particular person.

And I'm just wondering what kind of relationship this App3al Board is having with the munici palities that they deal with. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: I might say that for the last year that I have, we have 383 appeals; 95 of those were allowed; 144 were dismissed; withdrawn 94; did not appear 31 ; and other 19. My honourable friend is absolutely right, they are not always popular with the municipality. Their role is not neces sarily to be popular with the municipality, they are there to look at any abuse for the citizens .

I haven't received any correspondence from municipalities, not that I can recall. For instance, there are certain municipalities that pride thems elves of not having any welfare . They ;nake it, if somebody appears in front of them they will insist that they wait until they have the council there, and so on, and they subject people to certain things that they shouldn't be.

And then they have a very very low rate and what in effect they're doing, they're forcing these people out of those areas and into another area who are mostly in Winnipeg, in the core area of Winni peg where the City of Winnipeg has to pay for it. So I'm not saying that we're not satis fied with all the work that is done but I'm not surprised, and I certainly would be sur prised if they were always popular with the municipalities . This is not their role; it's an Appeal Board. But as I say, I give you an idea of those that were passed, the appeals that they were granted, and so on.

But in answer, I have n't received any correspondence that I can remember from any municipality. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll leave it at that for now, but I think

2052 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY - HEAL TH (MR. BANMAN cont'd) ••••• I'd like to mention further on, and I don't know, I haven't checked the Estimates that close yet, with regard to the role that the municipalities are playing with the administration of diff erent welfare and things, and this probably comes under another section, I'll peruse that and make those comments later. MR. CHAIRMAN: Res olution 56(b)(l). The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AX:WORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, I would also like to ask the Minister, when a complaint is registered with the Welfare Advisory Committee that may involve judgments or assessm ents made by members of staff of the department in providing evaluations or asses sments , does the welfare recipient have the right to request that those files be given to him so that he can see what asses sments or evaluations have been made by his welfare worker or by staff so that they can see if in fact the charges or allegations, or whatever, are based upon some fact .

In other words, are the files and information open to that particular individual, that have been developed on him in the department itself ? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, I think we can compare this to well maybe other appeal boards - the one that is appealing is certainly entitled to some information, enough infor mation to tell him why they reached their decision, and so on, but not necessa rily all the detail, the investigation that they've gone into.

I don't think that we'd want to ••• it would be wise to necessar ily give all this information, but I've never heard any complaints on that . If there is any, there's not that much, but we certainly will provide the infor mation, enough information to tell them why they don't qualify , why their appeal wasn't granted. MR. AXWOR THY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Minister could indicate, is there set-downs and very precise guidelines as to the kind of information and the kind of files that are available to people who appear before the Advisory Board so they know exactly what the limits of .their rights are, or are not, so that they can determine whether in fact if in some cases the judgments are being made in the relationship to certain kinds of asses sments that may or may not have been made by workers in relation to individuals , and they can determine whether they're based upon in bias , or whatever other kind of development that may creep into it, as it does from time to time in large organizations .

MR. DE SJARDINS: I'll have to make sure; I'll have to get all the details. But from my understanding though, it is that this is pretty well left to the discretion of the board who will give them enough information but will not necessa rily give them all the details, some details that definitely there would be no point in providing, and so on. Somebody has to be discrete; somebody has to decide, and I would imagine that you could have some complaints .

If there is any specific case that my honourable friend is thinking of, or if he has had any complaints , I would be very pleased to investigate the matter myself to find out. I don't think that I can tell him much more than that , than it is the discretion of the Advisory Board, who certainly must provide the necessa ry information and to tell them why the case was turned down, but all the minute details of that are not available. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'd be pleased to pass on to the Minister some cas es, or a case in particular that had come to my attention.

But furt her, when someone comes before the Welfare Advisory Board - I presume that in many cases in dividuals that come before the board may not be as skilled or as sophisticated in the ways and means of dealing with tribunals of this sort - does it offer assi stance so that some one presenting their case they get if need be legal counsel from the Legal Aid Society, are they given someone to help represent their case so that they ensure that they have all kinds of documentation or background, or kind of presentation that would be necessary in order to ensure that they got a fair hearing, is that supplied by the board or do they help provide it by, say, through the Legal Aid Department ?

MR. DESJARDrnS: First of all, the staff is geared to help these people. There are two profe ss ional people that will work w:ith them. I think that by law they have to be informed of their rights , and you know they would meet in camera with these people also. You know, if somebody is nervous for some reason or another, and they don't parade that in front of everybody, I would imagine, I don't know, it's not a Court of Law, they have

April 6, 1976 2053 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) •••• • no power, they make recommendation to the Minister, and so on, so I don't know if there is any need for legal advice, but if this was turned down by the Minister, and so on, I would imagine that then they could apply for legal aid, but this Advisory Committee, this Appeal Board makes recommendation to the Minister. 1·hey haven't got that power to change a certain appeal; within a certain area they have a right to say, fine, this is an appeal and municipality is wrong, or somebody else is wrong, or you:' re wrong, but I don't know.

That again, to be honest with you, I'd have to check to see if they can apply to Legal Aid if it comes up at that level. But I can assure you that the st aff, and so on, are trying to be helpful to these people. They tell them of their right, and try and inform them of the regulation, and so on, that we have. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman --(Interjec tion)-- Rights of Legal Aid.

Speaking to the Minister, as you may recall, I raised a question with him today in Ques tion Period concerning the fairly serious charges that were made by the Canadian Civil Liberties Ass ociation and the study that was just released, concerning the fact that many people on welfare are being denied basic rights and freedoms by • • • welfare officers, and that this included in fact, part of the study included a sample of people in the City of Winnipeg - I think they sampled 132 welfare recipients in the City of Winnipeg, along with many other cities, as part of a National Survey - and I understand that the Minister from his answer today hasn't yet seen such a study or had an opportunity to investigate it, I was wondering - I'd like to raise the issue with him and go into some of these issues - I was wondering if he would prefer to wait perhaps for the

section where we deal on Social Ass istance and Security, so that perhaps he and his department have time to review what that particular study says. If he'd like to deal with it now I'm sure we could raise some of those issues, but if he would prefer to wait until we get to a further

section then he may have time to examine the charges that were made in that study, then I'd be quite conten t to wait until that time . MR . DE SJARDINS: I did get some information, I don't know if we can, I haven't g0t all of the information - our staff had not seen their report. There were approximately 130 recipients , as you mentioned, from Winnipeg, that were interviewed out of a total of about a 1, 000 or so, and I could only make general remarks. After the question I've asked staff to prepare something. There were aware of the statement but they haven't seen the report.

I'm told here that in Manitoba here once liability for maintenance is legally established the Family Court normally receives the payment and enforces the order. The client is not required to deal with the person obliged to provide maintenance, for one thing, We do not restrict the place where people can work, We per mit any client who wishes to work to do so. We do not directly intervene in a client's decision about where to live - of course there are upper limits on the amount we will pay for rent, and this is certainly understandable, but within these people are free to live wherever they wish.

We do not restrict or direct expenditures on food; within the food allowance a person can spend the amount as desired. Manitoba has an Appeal Board, this Independent Appeal Board, and the department as of the matter of policy always implements binding decisions of the board except where explicitly directed or contrary to the Minister. I've never overruled a decision of the board since I've been there.

As a matter of policy clients are always informed of their rights to appeal where a request by them is denied , We do investigate a suspected case of unreported common- law relationship, and in most cases the statements of the parties concerned are decisive in ultimately deter mining the department's action. Unwed mothers are strongly advised for the sake of their children to seek main tenance from the punitive father, but if for any reason the mother declines to name the father or seek support, she is not for that reason denied full social assistance.

Now these were you understand, general remarks and when we have the report and if there is more specific accusation, especially dealing with Manitoba, well then I would welcome that. I don't know if I should tell my honourable friend that we should deal with it now. I don't know how soon this report will be forthcoming. MR . CH AIRMAN: Order, order. Before the �-Ionourable Member continues, I

20 54 April 6, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. CHAffiMAN cont'd) ••••• would remind him that we are on a Welfare Advisory Committee . If he has any wider remarks, as he was indicating, he should keep them until we get to Resolution 60(c). The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Ch airman, I'd be quite happy to be guided by your advice to perhaps raise the matter. I just have one furt her line of questioning in relation to the initial answer supplied by the Minister.

Is there any provision or description of the par ticular rights that someone who does take welfare , assistance is given at that time, is there any detailing of the kinds of rights ? I raise the question simply because again man) people in those circumstances are of tentimes not able to deal perhaps with the same rigoUJ that the Minister and I might be able to in protecting our rights, and that therefore is there some initial description of those given to them by a worker when in fact they apply for welfare ass istance, and that those are provided to them. MR. CHAmMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

DESJARDINS: ••• pamphlet available that explains these rights and I'll endeavour to try to get copies of that. I don't know how many I can get for all the members, or at least a few for each party. MR. AXWORTHY: I just have another question, Mr. Speaker, on the Welfare Advisory Board. I note that the Minister indica ted that the number of appeals have gone down over the last year or so . Can he indicate whether the appeals have changed in the nature of the grievances that are being expressed.

Is there any particular sign by the kind of complaints that are being received about diff erent policies that may be adminis trative at diff erent levels , or is there any more rigour in curtailing certain areas of activity ? Has there been any change really in the pattern of appeals made to the board ? MR. DESJARDINS: The best that I can do is give the last two years . In 1974 the total appeals were 413, and this year 383. Now these were the categories.

Not allowed to apply, six in each year; decision delayed, two in '74 and three in 175; appli cation denied, 81 in '74 and 83 in '75; assistance cancelled 121 in '74, 85 in '75. There's not enough assistance, 203 in '74 and 194 in '75; and outside my jurisdiction there were 12 this year in 175 . MR . AXWORTHY: Mr . Chairman, I asked the Minister to remark, because we hear comment about them in the Pre ss I guess and from some politicians, and certainly the public at times , that there is a great deal of welfare abuse going on, people are trying to chisel the system or trying to make deals on it.

Co uld he indicate from what ever asses sment that his department has done about the nature of cases that come before them, the Welfare Appeal Board, that are being ••• towards them, that there is much evidence that there are wide-spread efforts perhaps to abuse the system or to turn it into a con game, and so on, can he indicate or determine from the sort of cases and the kinds of appeals that are made, whether in fact there is evidence to suggest that those rumors, or I guess , commonplace as sumptions , are in fact true, or whether in fact he 'd be able to deny that they are not true, based on the evidence that the board has .

MR. C HAmMAN : The Honourable Member for Lake side. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe the question that the Honourable Mem ber for Fort Rouge raises is one that is of interest to all of us and one that I think wouW merit the Minister sl eeping on over night to give a 20 minute response to tomorrow if the Minister should so choose to • • • MR. PAULLEY: Mr, Chairman, •• ,a cting House Leader if it wouW sui t the con venience of the Committee if I asked that the Committee rise and report. Thank you. MR. CHAmMAN : Committee rise. Call in the Speaker, Mr.

Speaker, your Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions and directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again, IN SE SSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. BARROWS: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister for Corrections and Rehabilitations , that the report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried . MR. SPEAKER: The House is now adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2: 30 tomorrow afternoon , (Wednesday) y r

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-66
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 66.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7f09bf4bbc2f7cd40c2dca21af00ab903adda756

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