Manitoba Hansard — 2 April 1976 (Sitting 62, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-62

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 62 2:30p.m., Friday, April 2nd, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans-Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p.m., Friday, April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS 1915 MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 98(a)(3)--pass. The Honourable Member for Birtle Russell. MR. GRA.HAM: Mr. Chairman, when we 're dealing with the project under the Special Programs we notice there's a fair reduction in the amount here. Perhaps the Minister can give us some indication of what the programs were that he intended to cut out in the present year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, we are now on (2)(a)(

l) or did we complete the .•• MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)(a)

(3) Projects. MR. McBRYDE: (2)(a)(3). This is related to the Manitoba -Canada Special ARDA Agreement. Last year Manitoba had a special amount in this appropriation above and beyond the Federal-Provincial Agreement amount. I believe that sum was used for the most part for fisheries assistance of some type or other and that amount has now been transferred to the Department of Renewable Resources. So there is a $500, 000 item that has been transferred from this appropriation to the Resources' appropriation. MR.

GRAHAM: Well perhaps the Minister can tell us how much longer the Special ARDA Program is going to remain in effect. MR. McBRYDE: As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the Special ARDA Agreement expires April 1, 1977, so we have another year. MR. GRAHAM: In effect this is the last year that this program will be in effect. We are now dealing with Estimates for the coming year that ends 31st of March and that will be the end of the Special ARDA Agreement unless there has been some new arrange ments made with the Federal Government, is that correct? MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I haven't discussed this with the Federal Mintster since we assigned the two-year extension of the original agreement and I have no idea what their present attitude is towards further extensions of the agreement. So what we have now is one more year in the existing agreement, and I am not sure what is intended to happen in the year after from their point of view. Certainly we'd be willing to discuss with them further extension of the agreement because we can get federal assistance for this program. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister indicated there was $500,000 being transferred out of this to the Department of Harvestable Resources. Can he indicate what the other $400, 000 reduction is ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 98(a)(3)--pass. The Honourable Member for Riel, the Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder in reading the Estimates here ••• yesterday we had the Renewable Resources Department sitting in the other room and we've had some difficulty in being able to run both committees at the same time because there seems to be those who are interested in Northern Affairs automatically find themselves also interested in Renewable Resources, and it's pretty sort of a natural state of affairs to have it that way. Which leads to the question, Mr. Chairman, as to how do you want projects identify it as being a project which is Northern Affairs versus a project which is under Renewable Resources.

It would appear to me that a great deal of what you might undertake in the way of projects could viably fall under either one of the departments. Does the Minister look on the project, his role as being that of the extension of the Municipal Affairs Department, or just how does he govern, what projects he feels are in his realm of responsibility as opposed to those that might also fall under Renewable Re sources? We'd like to get some clear sort of guidelines as to just how these two de partments decide how they're going to operate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, it's a very good qusstion, This iG one area where there is a working together of the two departments. I'll take this specific example first, and then give you a couple more of how the relationship works out. In this specific

April 2, 1976 1916 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR . McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• case with the Federal-Provincial Agreement thB Special ARDA staff of the province work with Fishermen's Association or Trappers Association, which in many instances have been assisted to organize by people from the Renewable Resources.

But the role of the Special ARDA is f airly limited and fixed to what their role with that organization will be, and their role is to explain to them the Special ARDA Program and how it relates to fishermen and trappers to assist them to get their appli cation forms in, and then to present to the Special ARDA Board recommendations as to whether certain loans or grants be given. The Special ARDA Program is basically a grant program to provide assistance to fishermen and trappers for equipment, and that's the fairly limited role that we would play.

Beyond that in terms of the fishing regulations, fishing licenses, trapping licenses, that responsibility falls within the Department of Re newable Resources. For example, Renewable Resources have asked the Special ARDA officials to make sure that purchases in the future in terms of traps were humane type traps. So now, Special when they make a grant to a community or to the Trappers Association and to the individuals trappers within, will ensure that certain types of traps were purchased as opposed to the other types of traps .

So the working relationship be tween the two departments is quite close • Now when we get to the Northern Manpower Corps

section of this budget, I can give you an example of Eastervale Harvesting where various agencies of government were involved. In the initial instances our extension work with Northern Affairs was the one that helped the community to get organized in terms of trying to set up their own compa ny to harvest fence posts from Eastervale. When that stage was reached, then the Re newable Resources people came in and assisted the evaluation of the viability of that pro ject.

So our initial extension role was to give people some general advice and assistance to help them to organize themselves, and then to get them to call in the Renewable Re sources people who did a feasibility study of the project. When the project was deter mined to be feasible, then another

section of Northern Affairs, the Northern Manpower Corps came in and set up a training program. So the first three months' work was a training program. The Department of Renewable Resources hired a manager who report ed to the Community Board of that particular operation, and then the Special ARDA people this time the federal officials under Special ARDA because they deal with loans to in dustrial development - I went in and granted a grant to the Eastervale Harvesting Com pany under the Special ARDA Program. So there was four diff erent branches or agencies involved, but not in an overlapping way.

Each handled certain parts of the development and the project carried forward. So I suppose it's a matter of a good working relation ship between, especially between Northern Affairs and Renewable Resources, that we are able to carry on without overlapping in function. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I have a question under this item, but first of all I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister, I think he's doing a very very good job in assisting to give the explanations that are being called for.

But at the same time I have concern, particularly under this Special Programs. It says here: "Provides economic development support in the form of grant assistance to primary producers and provides funds for the employment creating training proposals relative to business ventures." The Minister took a few moments and I listened to him quite intently, and he seemed to be just touching the tip of the iceberg, Mr. Chairman. I would like him to tell us now something as to what these primary producers are produc ing.

Many rr.onths have gone by and many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent in providing equipment and providing training, and as was outlined this morning on transportation people are being brought in, no doubt by the multitudes to induce them and teach them what they can produce insofar as Northern Manitoba is concerned. This is all good, I have no complaint with that whatsoever, but I do feel that the Minister had better get down to cases and tell us some of the things that the department is doing.

Listening to him over the past few hours - and he's gone to no end of effort to point out the capabilities and the staff that he has - I'm terribly afraid that a bureaucracy is being set up where it's going from one department to another department and another department,

April 2, 1976 1917 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. BILTON cont'd) ••••• and I have a feeling that this Minister is being frustrated by the fact of this red tape and that he 1 s not getting down to spending the money with the people that the money is intended to'help. I'd like him to tell us, if he will take a few moments, as to what has been accomplished during the past twelve months in the many projects that have been set up and hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent. Is that too much to ask? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I'd be more than ph:Jased to answer the question. I'm not sure if the Member for Swan River is asking about the over-all department and various projects or whether he's talking about the specific item in front of us, which is the Canada-Manitoba Special ARDA Agreement project. The projects under that are basi cally a grant assistance program to fishermen and trappers.

Now as I understand how the program works, an association applies on behalf of its members - and there are a num ber of fishermen's associations and trappers' associations - they apply on b'lhalf of certain number of their members that in order to make that fishery work or that trapping season effective they need the following kinds of assistance: a boat, or motor or net, traps, etc., those types of items. The the staff works with the community to evaluate the worthwhile ness of that type of a grant. There are also some restrictions within the agreement.

This agreement is aimed basically at native communities and a certain percentage of the members of that association have to be native people. There are a couple of areas where there are people trapping and there are fishermen that are not eligible for this program, but those are the terms of reference for this particular program. If the member would wish, I could tell him that I have the complete list, but I don't know how meaningful it would be for the member because there's about 80 different ••• and I'll just give him some idea.

There was the assistance to 13 persons who are mem bers of the Lundar Fishermen's Association; assistance to 24 persons who are members of the Northwest Interlake Fishermen's Association; assistance to 33 individuals, fishermen who are members of the Princess Harbour Fishermen's Association; assistance to four trappers who are members of the Cedar Lake Local of the Fur Council; assistance to 26 trappers who are members of the Tadoule Lake Local Fur Council. Now the other thing I mentioned in my opening remarks.

If there were twelve fishermen that got a loan and eight of those were Treaty Indians, then 100 percent of the funds for the Treaty Indians would have come from the Federal Government. So they pick up the cost for 100 percent of the cost of grants to Treaty Indians and the cost sharing on the non-Treaty people is 50/50 with the Federal Government.

So the detail that the member is after, maybe this is a case where there is a real need to have the Resources Estimates not at the same time as ours, because the evaluation - okay, now let's say the fishermen in the Lundar Fishermen's Association got assistance for nets and boats, and - I don't have the information in front of me but I'm sure my colleague might - the Lundar fishermen then went from lOO, 000 pounds to 150,000 pounds in their production. But I don't have that particular detail in front of me. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister and I understand exactly what he's driving at, but Mr.

Minister in my particular case I have people under the Depart ment of Indian Affairs that seem to be able to g0t snowmobiles and get traps and get tents, and they can get all these things, and yet I have Metis people who it's true don't earn a great deal by their fishing but they get out and they work and they do the best they can to provide for their families. And they see what's going on on one side of the river under one department, which is a Federal Department, and I can understand the Minister's problem, and the Metis people are under the Provincial Government.

And I am sure he knows what I'm driving at now. You have that feeling of inequality and I'm confronted with it and! can't give them the answers. It's two years ago now that I did prevail upon the department to - the Metis people said to me, ''Well if they can have that, why can't I get some assistance from NES, I'm willing to go out and work and fish". And one way or another it was done. But this inequality between these two people, Mr.

Minister I'm probably not telling you anything, but you know this is the basis of a great deal of our trouble in getting a co-ordinated effort to help the people throughout northern Manitoba. Have you got any plans to overcome this in any way? I know that the province

1918 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAillS (MR. BILTON cont'd) ••••• cannot possibly afford to match the Department of Indian Affairs as to what they're handing out to Treaty Indians, and I have no argument with that at all. I'm not going to say whether these people should have it or shouldn't have it, Anything, anything at all to raise their standard of living with those people is fine with me one way or the other.

But there is this confliction between the Provincial Department, which you head, Sir, and the Department of Indian Affairs, which is causing those of us that have to live with these people all ldnds af headaches, as I'm sure they're causing you, Now is there anything that can be done to see to it that these people get an even deal? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Swan River certainly touches on a real and very prominent problem in northern Manitoba, and the problem is even more exaggerated, I think he realizes this, when it comes to the area of municipal ser vices because the Band Council is just eligible for so much more in terms af funds than a Treaty Band Council, the Treaty Band Council is eligible for quite a considerable a mount of funding,

whereas a Community Council has a considerable amount less. And there are many many areas of, as the member would call it, inequality brought about by the Treaty rights and obligations that exist for Treaty Indians.

The Housing Program is certainly one that was a problem when it started for the non-Treaty people because they had seen the Treaty program and the non-Treaty people thought they were going to get something the same as the Treaty people get, but in reality the non-Treaty people have to pay every cent of the cost af that house; maybe it's stretched out over a long term and based on income but they still in the end have to pay for their entire cost of that house. This particular Special ARDA arrangement is, I suppose, one step to eqwlity.

That is, there is not a separate program for Treaty and non-Treaty, and this comes into effect with the accounting process. That is, a loan is recommended and pre-work is done by provincial officials when it comes to primary producer grants, but once the board approves a grant to that particular number of people that have applied and are part of that organization, then the grant goes equally to the members of that organization whether they're Treaty or non-Treaty. But in the accounting the Federal Government picks up lOO percent for Treaty and 50 percent for the non-Treaty people.

Now there is in a couple of areas and we talk about inequality, there have been - I believe I've had one complaint about this, from an area where the persons of Native ancestry were not high enough to qualify for the program at all, but where they were still fishermen. The other problem is there a person has to have earned in the previous year less than a certain amount to qualify for this grant as well. So there are those restrictions on the program that are guidelines that you have to be within. This type of agreement exists not only in Manitoba but in Saskatchewan and Alberta as well.

It's the same agreement; it was a federal proposed agreement and the provinces could join in or not join in as they wished. There is another problem that I think the member had raised before, if not in the House, privately.

I've had a couple of examples raised maybe from the south end of his area or maybe from the Member for Roblin , is that there has been occasion where something granted has been abused and there have been a couple of instances where, for example, a person has been granted equipment and then sold the equipment and attempts have been made to recover the grant that was made for the purchase of that equipment and that person of course has wiped out his eligibility for any future assistance under the program. MR. BILTON: Just one further question, Mr. Minister.

If you haven't got the figures available well and good, but I just wondered if you had a breakdown as to the population of the Metis people as opposed to the Indian people in the Province of Manitoba. I'm thinking in terms as to how many of the Metis population is the province responsible for. MR. McBRYDE: In this particular program, Mr. Chairman, it's a little bit hard

April 2, 1976 1919 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• to - it's here in the figures and I'll just take an example from the member's constituency. Shoal River Local Fur Council - I guess that's your Shoal River is it? There were eight persons given a grant; the total cost was $12, 000; the cost to the Federal Government was $10,000 and the province $2, 000. So that means that most of them were Treaty. otherwise our costs would have been higher. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, I just have a couple of brief questions to the Honourable Minister. I'm wondering under the Special Programs, the employment training programs that are going on as an example in Camper ville, after they went through the training period, if the Minister could advise what's the experience? Are they able to find employment, or are there any figures that he may have of those that have went through the program have been relocated and that are able to find jobs that will provide them with their basic needs?

The other, I'm wondering like in the business ventures that are taking place, and I am quite familiar • • • As an example in the Valley River Band at Shortdale now, the Department of Indian Affairs has seen fit to put a grocery store in there with an enormous stock. Also I'm familiar with some of the business ventures that's taking place in the village of Camperville, and I wonder if the Minister could elaborate. Are these business ventures able to pay their way or are there some pl'oblems with the type of people that are operating them.

And I hope that these ventures will work out, I don't see any reason why these people can't operate a business the same as anybody else. I wonder could the Minister give me an insight, if there are some problems maybe they can be rectified along the way. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I think that the first part of the member's question was basically related to the training program in that area which was under the Work Activities Projects, or what people in that area jokingly called the "Italian Project" because they call it the MANWOP Program.

That particular program is not under our jurisdiction- I have a general idea of the program and I've had some review of it as a member of the Employment and Economic - excuse me, Manpower Subcommittee of Cabinet. But I don't know all the details of the program, although it's similar in some ways to what has been attempted in other areas, with more emphasis on training. But it's basically a use under the Canada Assistance Plan, so basically a use of· welfare funds to provide training as· opposed to direct welfare payments.

I think that the training assistance that's given is at the welfare rates almost to the people in training, but I couldn't give a detailed evaluation of the program. The program that's in front of us, the Special ARDA Program, we divided up, I'm not sure how we got into this originally, I inherited the particular thing as to the breakdown but the province does the ground work in terms of the resource fishermen's and trappers' assistance. The Federal Government does the ground work in terms of the grants to small businesses.

And the most recent evaluation I've seen is that the success rate is not very high with the Special ARDA grants to small businesses, in fact the record is quite a bit poorer than the Communities Economic Development Fund loan failures when it comes to small businesses. But the Special ARDA is also a grant, so I mean it's quite a tremendous help to that small business if they can qualify under the special ARDA guide lines and receive a grant which again is broken down in terms of Treaty, non Treaty etc. of the people to be employed there.

So in a couple of cases like I mentioned, Easterville Harvesting and a couple of projects, that grant has made the diff erence between viability or not viability, but I don't think their overall success rate has been very high. Now part of the agreement is for our staff to provide some training assistance in these projects. I don't have all the detail on how many specific training projects we have engaged in with this type of industry or how successful the training has been.

As a matter of fact I think the tendency has been to use wherever possible Canada Manpower training as opposed to the training that's theoretically possible under this agreement. You see, there are some things in this agreement that have never been carried out. The agree ment is fairly broad, It talks about recreation programs, it even talks about road

1920 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• construction, but none of these have been accepted when they've been put forward. I didn't fully answer the question before about the reduction that appears in the Estimates Book in terms of this program. There is one sum that has been transferred to Resources but there was also a reduction in the recreation amount, because there was not a single recreation project ap proved by the Federal Government under Special ARDA.

What happens when an appli cation comes in under this, it goes to a committee which consists of federal, provincial, and native organization persons that review an application, then the application goes to Ottawa and it can be approved or turned down or so many road blocks put in the way that it doesn't proceed. If they approve it then it comes back here to myself. But no rec reation project has been approved, and the letter that I have from the Minister of Region al Economic Expansion said that it is not their intention to approve any recreation projects.

This year some of the funds that had been originally allocated for recreation both on the part of the federal authorities and on the part of ourselves were used for grant assistance as opposed for recreation facilities' assistance. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution (a) (3)--pass; Resolution (b)--pass; Resolution 98, Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,210,600 for North ern Affairs--pass; Resolution 99. Engineering Services and Construction (

a) Administration, Engineering and Property Management

(1) Salaries and Wages - $405, 400.00. The Hon ourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, I wonder if the Honourable Minister would advise us of the number of employees that are covered under this

section and those that are residents of northern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, on (3)(a)(l), I assume that's where we are, there are 32.26 staff man years and regular, 32.26 staff man years. The entire Engine ering Services �taff which includes staff under the Northlands

section of the agreement, the total number of permanent staff man years we have in the Engineering Services it 42.5, the total number, and all of those are located in Thompson. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution (a)(1)--pass; The Honourable Member for Birtle- Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I think while we're dealing with Engineering Services and Construction, I'd like to make a few comments on the entire Resolution 99.

I have to at this time express a concern that I have and I'm sure that many members on this side have, as well as people throughout the entire province, and that is the shlfting that has gone on by government, the constant moving that seems to be taking place, and the transfers of responsibility from one Minister to another, or the partial transfer that is taking place.

Here I refer again to the - for instance an example is the Air Services where we have moved the actual operation of the Air Services but we've maintained the airport operation under Northern Affairs and the actual air fleet has been moved to Harvestable Resources. I think that this is not a good situation. I think that the con fusion and the lack of clearcut authority does not lend itself to a good type of operation.

Now we know that when you take this particular department and you compare it with the Renewable Resources and Transportation Services, you find that it•s very difficult to really break down the clear responsibilities that shouW show in the Estimate Books. Now if you're going to have transportation, Northern Transportation in particular, in Renewable Resources, then why is Winter Roads left in the Department of Northern Affairs, or why is Airport Construction left in the Department of Northern Affairs, and the Air Operation has been transferred? I think that it's going to be very diff icult. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I know I've allowed a certain amount of latitude, but I think we should get back to item by item within the Estimates that we have before us, and right now we're under Administration, Engineering, Property Management, Salaries and Wages, would the Honourable Member please confine his rema·rks to (a)(

l) please. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm talking about Engineering Services and Construction in northern Manitoba, part of which lies within the responsibility ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. If the Honourable Member will turn to the

April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. CHAIRMAN cont'd) , , , , ,next page he will find an item dealing with Winter Roads and under that he can make his comments, 1921 MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, if that is your ruling that is the way I will frame my questioning and ask the Minister then what phases that comes under Ad ministration, Engineering and Property Management does he plan to transfer to the De partment of Harvestable and Renewable Resources in the coming year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to go against your ruling here, but the whole

section of Engineering Services I think is what the member is referring to, and I guess the administration of that whole

section relates to the comments that he made.

The clear distinction right now, or as the member would say, the grey distinction right now, is that Northern Affairs has the responsibility for the construction of airstrips and the maintenance of those airstrips: Northern Affairs has the responsibility for the constru ction and maintenance of winter roads, The Department of Renewable Resources has the responsibility for the Manitoba Government Air Division, and responsibility for Marine Transportation or Barges, and I think, as the Minister of Renewable Resources had a chance to say in this - I don't know if he started introducing it, but there was something on the. news.

He was explaining the two or three experimental projects in terms of barge transportation that will be carried out this upcoming summer, The distinction between Renewable Resources and ourselves in this regard is clearer sometimes than the distinc tion between the Department of Highways, because there are occasions where we have - the traditional distinction has been that Highways would build any roads joining up to a provincial road and Northern Affairs would do internal construction of roads in communi ties that didn't join to a provincial road, However there have been two or three occasions now where the Department of Highways have not had the funds in their budget and we have in fact joined up to a provincial road from a community, I suppose the main ex ample of that would be South Point Road, which was constructed by Northern Affairs and is still maintained by Northern Affairs, including a road and two local timber bridges that exist on that particular road.

But the distinction is much clearer here than for example, Renewable Resources and Forestry Development, where they do one part, we do another part and we work together fairly closely in that regard. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister just pointed out and reaffirmed what I have been trying to say, that we have split jurisdictions, some of it is under Highway Branch, some of it is under his department, some of it is under another Minister's de partment, and I'll tell you, Sir, that it is confusing to the public. it is confusing to members in the Legislm.'ure.

I think that you will find if you analyze it, that the dupli cation in administration, the duplication - everybody wants to get in and each department wants to have their say in what's going on. I think that we're getting a waste of the public's money in a split jurisdiction of this type.

I'm sure that everyone would like to see a very clearcut unified effort put in by, I don't care which department it is, as long as everybody knows that that department is going to be handling that aspect of it entirely, But the way it is at the present time, we're getting so much money allocated here, we're getting so much allocated in Highways, we're getting so much allocated in Harvestable Resources, and when you end up you've got a beautiful big pot there where there seems to be all kinds of money and not enough control over the expenditure of it, You'll find there is a constant jockeying for controls, and in the internal workings.

Actually instead of more control there will end up being less control and we'll get money being spent improperly - I shouldn't say improperly, but not wisely, there will be more expenditure than is absolutely necessary to accomplish the job that is anticipated. So I would urge the Minister to think carefully and make recommendations to his colleagues , that this authority be clearly spelled ou; and that only one department be involved. I don't see any reason, Mr.

Chairman, why when we have a Department of Highways which has an entire engineering service that lns been established over the past 50, 60 years in this province, why that department with all their enginee1ring expertise and that should not be used entirely, but here we find under Engineering Services, we find another branch of government building up an engineering service which I suggest is a duplication. And we'll find the same thing occurring under the Minister of Renewable

1922 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) ••••• Resources, we'll find an attempt there being made to build up an Engineering and Technical Service Branch before very long. So I suggest again that all of this be fully integrated so that we have one Engineering Service, one Administration Service, and then we will start to get some efficiency in the dollars that we spend. Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: Resolution 99(a)(l)--pass. The Honourable Minister of Northern MR. McBRYDE: The point that the member raised - you lmow, he's - of course Northern Affairs Estimates are on, so he's zeroed in on that.

But there are a lot of functions of government, I mean no real clearcut distinctions,.. there are departments that do things that are fairly similar and sometimes you have to divide up the workload so the workload gets done. And what might be logical at one time might not seem logical to the member opposite, but it doesn't only exist with this department, I think it 's a question between all departments, where there might be some similarity of service and overlap.

For example, in the Engineering field, Water Control Division has a large engineering section, Public Works has an engineering section, Highways has an engineer ing section, Northern Affairs has an engineering section. We have also used the services of Water Control engineers in some cases and the Department of Highways' engineers in other cases, so that the - I suppose the key is not how you divide things, the key is whether the departments involved in similarities can work together and make sure they're not duplicating services and are making the most .effective use of people.

I don't think there is a simple solution, as the member would like. Things are not always clearcut. Where is the dividing line between Colleges and Universities and Education? Where is the dividing line between Consumer Affairs' enforcement of legal matters and the Attorney-General's enforcement of legal matters? You lmow there are a lot of areas like that where you have to make a decision, we '11 put this

part in that department and this

part in that department .and hopefully where they have to work together that they work together efficiently. MR. GRAHAM: Well Mr. Chairman, the Minister is saying things that I think are good, but unfortunately what he is saying and what he practices are quite diff erent. I lmow from examples that have been brought to my attention, that in the Engineering Services that are provided in his department I don't believe there is full and efficient utilization taking place.

I can give you an example where a· member of his department maybe on a tour of the northern airstrip construction for instance, might have found that sanitary facilities were lacking on a particular construction site and the result is he sends a memo to the department of his engineering services, and over a period of considerable time, and I don't lmow how much time was spent in drafting, we come up with a design for an outhouse on a local airstrip that probably cost several thousands of dollars and served no better purpose than the $25.00. one or the $100.00 that was presently in exis tence.

This is what I say I think that we have to make sure that the services we have are utilized in the proper manner, and when you get a duplication of engineering services, the engineers that he is using are probably engirieers that are qualified to ·work for the Highways Department. or maybe some other branch. But we fiirl there is a time when he has built up probably an engineering service that is not fully utilized for the entire 12 months so they start make-work programs, and it goes back to the old saying that if you have enough civil servants they will find enough work to keep themselves busy.

I don't say this facetiously at all, but I say this, that make-work projects, do they really serve the interests of the people of the Province of Manitoba'?

I am not opposed to an engineer doing an excellent job and creating something that is worthwhile for the Province of Manitoba, but when we find that some of those services are not being utilized to their full potential, but are being used in fact mainly because they have staff and they don't lmow what to do with them, then I think it's a diff erent matter, and I would urge the Minister to seriously reconsider the amalgamation of all the engineering services under one particular branch.

I don't care whether it be under Northern Affairs or Highways, but the duplication that has arisen I think is not in the best interests of the people of. Manitoba. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I have to: ask the honourable member if he

April 2, 1976 1923 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• wants Water Control, Public Works, included in th is Department of Engineering Services that the member wishes to create. I am not aware of the example that the member used as a problem, and certainly if his example has any validity at all, which I don't know, then that kind of problem has to be corrected. The approach that I use to administration, to management of the department, the approach that my staff uses, is one that I thLik expresses a similar feeling to what the honourable member's expressed.

That is, my opinion of public service is that there should always be a situation of too much work for the number of people that you have, because as soon as you get too many people they start creating work for themselves, like the member said. So my method of operation, and one that I impart to my staff, is that people should always be overworked, there should always be more work than there are enough people to deliver. And the engineering staff is not diff erent from the rest of the depart ment in complaining that they are under-st aff ed to carry out the work that they do. The work that they do, Mr.

Chairman, is - you know, I am not an engineer, and the member might have had more experience in the field of construction engineering than I have had - but the kind of work that the engineering staff is involved in is the design work for ex ample for airstrips. Now here is a case where in my opinion and in th e opinion of the First Minister where in fact we do over-design, but we over-design in order to meet Federal Government licencing regulations for airstrips, so that the complications involved, the cost of meeting licencing requirements is very high.

A building cannot be more than so many hundred feet from the edge of the airstrip. and rocks at the side of the airstrip cannot be more than a certain angle away from the airstrip, and the cost of meeting those requirements is very high. But if that particular airstrip is to meet federal licencing requirements then the engineer has to know exactly what those licencing requirements are and design to meet those particular requirements. I suppose the alternative to using professional engineers - and that's another question - is to proceed without engineering services.

Now we know that in airstrip construction --(Interjection)-- I'm not sure in other areas. Maybe in the case of build ing a bridge, maybe sometimes engineers do over-professional in their work. But I know that in the case of the airstri.ps in many cases it's cost us money because there hasn't been professional engineering involved, so that when it came time to extend the airstrip the person who went in sort of just by eyesight, laid out an airstrip, and when it became necessary to extend the airstrip, there's been solid rock there.

So it's cost a lot more money than if there had been the kind of things engineers do first, such as soil testing and all the kinds of things they lay out first to make sure they don't get themselves into that kind of a situation. So it has cost the people of Manitoba some money by not having professional engineers involved in some specific projects. The other type of work that the engineering people in Northern Manitoba are in volved in would be in the work on local water supply systems, to design those particular systems.

The other thing they would be involved in would be in bridges that are internal to the communities, and on occasion we have used Highways people to do that kind of work. The other thing they would be involved in would be major buildings that might be going up in the community that our staff would be involved in. So those are the type of things that the Engineering ·staff is involved in. It is my opinion, and·. this is what I tell him, that the staff is lean, there is not too many staff there, and that I don't see another more effective way to handle the situation. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I want to assure the Minister that I was not attempting to degrade the quality of the engineering that he has • What I was trying to find out was the maximum utilization of the engineering force he has, and if the Minister will give me a few minutes I will bring him the documentation that I referred to, so it'll only take me a couple of minutes. Perhaps there are other members who might want to say a few words. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Mirrl::;ter.

I know when we were dealing with the Department of Public Works Estimates that the Minister of Public Works indicated that his engineering division was providing services for various

1924 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. MJNAKER cont'd) •••• ,departments and I was wondering if - and I know that at many times the Department of Public Works Inspectors fly into the north to inspect different projects and so on - could the Minister advise, does the Department of Public Works provide any engineering services for his Department of Northern Aff airs and would there be any costs for that particular service under this section? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs, MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, my understanding would be that the Department of Public Works would provide service in the area of its responsibility for off ice accom modation, and if new office space had to be built to accommodate the Department of Northern Affairs then their engineering staff would be involved, as would their dollars be involved in that particular program. That is the only type of engineering service I believe that we get from the Department of Public Works. We have in the past got other engineering services from Water Control and from Highways. MR. MlNAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder then if the Minister might better describe the water and sewer systems that are mentioned in the general

preamble of this particular department because I believe in that particular area of responsibility in the Public Works report there was a mention of a project for the Norway House schools and there was I believe something like $400,000 in there for a water treatment plant and I believe additional funds somewhere in the same size in dollars for a sewage system, I'm wondering would the Department of Northern Affairs be involved in this particular project, or how would the Department of Public Works have this project on its particular year end report ? MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I'll try to clarify it further for the Member for St. James. The Frontier School Division which operates all throughout the north, the school and facilities related thereto are the responsibility of the Department of Public Works. So they would be involved with the building of a school, the sewer and water system for the school, the teacherages that might be required for the school. There has been an effort - and here we come to the bit on the problem that the Member for Swan River mentioned too.

Let's say you have a school in the community, and you can have this - I can't think of one offhand that would have all three - let's say you have a school that's Frontier School Division, a nursing station that's National Health and Wel fare, Federal Government, in a Treaty community and a non-Treaty community. Let's say the school and the nursing station are going to a sewer and water system and both parts of the community are interested in a water supply system, there has to be some way to bring them together.

Now the only case that I know of where we've brought the four interests together has been in South Indian Lake • I don't know of any other case. That is not a sophisticated sewer and water system but a water delivery and sewage pickup type of system that applies throughout the community. That is, the school and the nursing station are connected straight into the sewer and water system but the fresh water is supplied by truck to all the residences, whether they be local people or outside people brought in to assist the community, and the sewage pick-up system is then put into the central system.

So that's the only case I know where we've been able to amal gamate all of the interested parties to provide one system. The water system that we're talking about in Northern Aff airs and we've got federal cost-sharing on is a very basic stand-pipe system for communities where the local well or the local shoreline water is not acceptable for consumption but to provide just a safe water supply. It's not a sophisticated system in any way; it's not even a delivery system. It's a number of stand-pipes so people can go outside and turn on the tap and get some water.

April 2, 1976 1925 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, when I talk about the overlapping of services and the full utilization of the engineering services of his department it brought to mind a copy of a memo which I happen to have here dated February 10, 1975 from a B. Seppala, who I understand is in charge of winter roads. Is that correct, Mr. Minister? MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the member could share his information with me in more than verbal form. Mr.

Seppala was initially in cmrge of winter road construction, now he's in charge of overall construction in Northern Affairs. MR. GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate when he was placed in charge of overall construction? MR. McBRYDE: It was sometime before Christmas but I can't be more precise than that. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, this memo is about a year ago and the subject is the outdoor privies at airports. I think perhaps I should read it for the benefit of all members and the memo is to this effect. It says: "NJne of my business, but suggest men's outdoor privies have urinals (a trough).

Outdoor privies are backup situations at airports and I have seen them in use at Cross, Island Lake and Berens. As a result of disposal systems for indoor plumbing being frozen up (that's his guess). I am sure you can guess ilf you haven't seen what happens when user's aim are off target. Once that happens users are reluctant to sit down on the bench for a No. 2 job and resort to doing the job on the floor. Also suggest a new design for the hole," and he draws a picture here with a notch at the back of the hole to reduce excrement buildup. Mr. Chairman, I'll table the document. Mr.

Chairman, this is the man who is in charge of the entire construction business of the Department of Northern Affairs. When I talk about the full utilization of the engineering services I do so with a fair degree of backup information here. A MEMBER: Well, he's really getting down to the basics, Harry. MR. GRAHAM: Really? I wasn't sitting down on the job either. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the member would agree that this is not a theoretical or an unpractical ••• I mean this engineering advice gets right down to the nitty-gritty of the situation and I'm sure that it's very practical and it's a credit to the person that put it together. --(Interjection)-- MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, it may be a credit to the man involved but I just wonder how many hours were spent by the department in designing, and the engineering work that went into the design which would meet the requirements of the memo of Mr. Seppala. A MEMBER: Not only that, it wasn't even a two--holer. MR.

CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman, I'm sure that if I know the gentleman in question that he probably did this in his spare time as opposed to his official government effort. The particular gentleman is not an engineer by trade. He is the manager of that particular operation now. But his experience is in the practical day-to-day initial experi ence in winter roads and other construction and related to the forestry industry. He's a forester by profession as opposed to an engineer.

He comes to us from many years work in the private sector before he came to work for the Province of Manitoba. I think one of the members raised the question of some of the red tape that's involved in the \\hole government process and I am sure that he is one of those people that found this somewhat frustrating too, when he wants to get a job done and yet has to get approval from so many different people before he can quickly proceed to get the construction project completed and under way. But the matter raised by the member is a bit humourous and yet it is serious.

I mean these communities mentioned are communities that have indoor toilets and the outdoor toilets are only used if something happens to the particular indoor system. I'm sure that what. probably happens is that the outdoor toilets are allowed to become run down and are not kept up properly because they are so seldom used, maybe only in the middle of winter. There has been a problem in remote communities in terms of our buildings on the

1926 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAJRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) • • • . • airstrip areas and we've had to initiate a number of steps to overcome vandalism and other problems that we've had in buildings. In most cases now we have a full time person in occupancy of those buildings although there is still one or two cases where we don't have that kind of backup. As I said earlier, Mr. Chairman, the engineering

section of the department, in my opinion, they do have more than enough work to do and they are carrying that out in an effective manner. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, while the issue I raised is one that can be laid to rest, I raised it only to point out that we on this side of the House and I'm sure the people in the Province of Manitoba, want to ensure that when we allocate funds that they are spent wisely and that we get a good efficient use of the dollars that are spent and we don't get a duplication of services. MR.

CHAJRMAN: Resolution 99( a)(1) --pass; Resolution 99(a)(2) --pass - the Honourable Member for St.James. MR. MINAKER: Yes , Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise us of the various items that we requested information on in prrevious departments under this particular section. I'm referring to travel, etc. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Other Expenditures in this

section is $15, 000 for printing and stationery; $5, 000 for telephone and postage; $62,1 00 for Travel . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, while the Minister is giving that, it would appear that there is an increase in personnel. Could he give us the number of personnel that have been added to this department in the past year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minist!'lr of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRY DE: Mr.

Chairman, the members will recall that when I was speak ing on the questions from the Member for River Heights I mentioned the contract con versions that had taken place in one part of the government, the permanent staff man years where that was the case. There were a number of what we call "project personnel" employed by this particular

section but they turned out to be year-round employees , a number of them. So rather than be a four-month employee or a real casual employee they would be involved with the department full year round, so a number of these are what we call "casual conversions" - people who had been on casual staff have now been made into permanent staff. So that's the area of increase. MR. GRAHAM: Well perhaps the Minister coilld tell us how many there were that have been transferred from contract employees to permanent staff - or casual employees to staff. MR.

McBRYDE: There was 14. 5 casual conversions and there was one new position approved this year for the 15. 5 increase in staff shown. MR. CHAJRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Could I continue? Of the 15 .5 then that have been added under Engineering Services and Construction; Engineering and Property Management, are they all qualified in the field of engineering or property management? MR. McBRYDE: The positions that have been converted, Mr.

Chairman, from casual to full staff man year, regular civil servants , engineering aides , three draft persons - we say draft persons now instead of men I guess - three surveyors, four rod men, chainmen. --(Interjection)-- Rod and chainmen, four of those. There were also some changed from casual staff to permanent staff. There were three accounts clerks, a file clerk, a mail clerk and the switchboard operator. The new position was in the Property Management

Section and the title is Records Clerk and the function is records clerk. MR. CHAJRMAN: The Honouzable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just an observation. I noticed when the Honourable Minister was replying to the Honourable Member for St. James he

April 2, 1976 1927 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. BILTON cont'd) • . • . . mentioned a m atter of stationery which was quite an item and I noticed that in the several items we've discussed so far, Mr. Chairman, that in Other Expenditures, printing and stationery are somewhat prominent. I wonder if the Minister would take into consideration in future Estimates that he submits to the House, if he would not give us one item of Printing and Stationery for the whole depart ment so that we can have a look at it.

Because it looks to me as though - I'm not suggesting that it's not being spent for other than printing and stationery but I think as one item, if it's shown as one item, then we could probably get to the grass roots as to where this money is going and what it is being spent on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, maybe before the Honourable Minister answers that particular comment, I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise us under this

section what amount he has in his Estimates for professional fees and what they would cover - the amount that he has. I notice that last year was somewhere in the order of $34 ,0 00, or at least for the year ending March, 1975. Also I would like to know what is in the Other Expenditures, this year's Other Expenditures for advertising and exhibits. MR. McBRYDE: On this particular

section we're dealing with the professional fees for this year are $1 0,000. I think that the reason for the change from last year is that more outside consultants had to be used. These would probably be professional engineers. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 99(a) (2) - the Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, I would presume from the silence of the Minister that there is nothing in this year's expenditures for advertising and exhibits because the year ending 1975, this amounted to $11 ,90 0. Is there· nothing in this year's Estimates? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs.

MR. McBRYDE: I don't have a figure for this particular section. I am advised that the department has spent , that is the fiscal year just completed, $20,0 00 for advertising and exhibits. That's throughout the whole department and that would mainly be advertising in terms of job advertising and tender advertising. I'm not sure what other costs would be included in that. Mr. Chairman, the Member for Swan River raised the point and I think it's administratively more_ effective to do it this way than to do it the way he recommends.

Although I think that we could total it all up for him at the start of the Estimates next year and say here it is in total. If I know my staff, they'll probably do it while we're talking, for that entire cost in total. The

section that he usually makes his speech on that relates to printing and stationery is yet to come up so he can still have the opportunity to make his annual speech on that particular subject. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution (a)(2)- -pas s; Resolution (a)(3) (a)-- pass. The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Yes. I wo nder if the Honourable Minister would advise us of the number of employees that this particular

section covers and those that are located in Northern Manitoba. MR. McBRYDE: There are seven staff under this section. They're all located in Thompson. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)--pass; (b)--pass - the Honourable Member for St. Jarre s. MR. lVIINAKER: Mr. Chairman , I want to make sure I have the right spot here. I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advis e us of the travel expenses and the transportat ion, telephones and the stationery under this section. --(Interjection)- It's not necessary to answer those questions, Mr. Minister. MR.

McBRYDE: I have a specific overall breakdown for winter roads because we attached it to the specific project. --(Interjection)-- I'm sorry, I thought we had passed winter roads. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on 99(a )(3 )(b) - Other Expenditures. Pass? Pass; 99 (b)-Winter Roads Construction - the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell.

1928 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I lmow the Minister of Northern Affairs bas been waiting a long time to give his usual glowing report on the operation of the winter roads system in the Province of Manitoba so perhaps it's a good time for us to sit down and listen to his report for the present winter. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affair s. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, since the weather conditions were very good this year, no more needs to be said on the winter road program for this year. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, then I assume from the report that he has given us that all the goods that were anticipated to be moved over the winter roads have in fact been moved and now that the winter roads are closed, he can assure us that 100 percent of the goods that were anticipated to be transported to the various communities have in fact been transported. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, a successful winter road season has just come to a close. During this season 750 miles of winter truck roads were constructed serving the communities of Bloodvein, Little Grand Rapids, Berens River, Ste.

Theresa Point, Wasagamow, Garden Hill, Cross Lake, Oxford House, Gods Lake Narrows, Norway House, Moose Lake and South Indian Lake. Some 23, 000 tons of general freig ht goods were hauled over the winter truck roads and 49, 000 tons of pulpwood were hauled for a total of 72, 000 tons. This compares with 44,465 tons the previous winter. The winter roads were also used by small vehicles or pri vate vehicles and over 10, 000 of these vehicles travelled over the winter roads system.

The first winter truck road of this season was officially opened between The Pas and Moose Lake on December 22, 1975, and the last road to be officially opened was the branch route to Little Grand Rapids which was available to fr eight trucks on February 7, 1976. So this gives a very long hauling season in most areas and at least a month even in the last road completed. As I mentioned earlier the truck road system is very dependent upon the weather and if the weather conditions are worse next year in terms of winter road construction I'm sure we won't have this type of result.

It is a very dependent system and if the weather doesn' t co-operate it's very diff icult to get the roads in as the honourable member is quite well aware. All the goods that were ready to be hauled in have been hauled in. It's been a longer season that normal for hauling. If there is some private person or some agency that did n't get something in, it's not the fault of the winter road, it would be their own fault of fa iling to marshall their forces in time. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we find that there is approximately the same amount of money being allocated for the coming year in the winter road construc tion and here. Mr. Chairman, I find we have great difficulty because of the split, the jo int jurisdiction or the split jurisdiction. We find in harvestable resources that we now have a summer operation building up in the barging industry. I was wondering if that program goes ahead will there then not be a reduced need for winter roads in the coming winter. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I dealt somewhat with winter roads in the opening general discussion.

Although this season might vary in a poor year to a couple of weeks when the whole mass of goods have to go in in a convoy system almost, when the years have been very poor, but the winter roads system in tenns of the dollars that it costs is still a very efficient system . Even if you build an all weather road to these locations, the cost of the maintenance of those all weather roads are about as high as the cost of the winter road system.

So until we get to the stage we are able to build all weather roads, the winter road system in my opinion, is still one of the efficient systems and the transportation study that the Member for River Heights has referred to and our own analysis by our Red Committee of Cabinet has still shown that the winter roads system in cost benefit analysis is an eff ective airl efficient system. You're not going to develop a marine transportation system to those

April 2, 1976 1929 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••. communities that are on the winter roads network that are going to get goods cheaper by marine transportation than they are going to get those goods by the winter road network. MR, GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman , we have been through this argument before and I'm sure that we may not be out of it yet.

But can the Minister indicate to us what the financial savings have been to the consumers in the various communities in Northern Manitoba by the winter roads system that has been developed by the province, when we find that in the past those carriers that delivered the goods built their own roads, now we find the province is building the roads and we find no significant decrease .in the cost of transporting the goods to thos e communitie s. MR. McBRYDE : Well, yes, the member is right. We'v e been through this once or twice or 24 times in the past.

The member is saying look, the cost of a loaf of bread in Island Lake hasn 't gone down because of your winter road system and so the only measure we have is whether it went up as fast as it would have gone up before. I don't have all my figures this year because I thought that argument was over but I can recall some of the figures . I think the member probably can too for example in Island Lake Road under the winter tractor n· ain system, I think it was in the first year in the area of at least 8 or 9 cents a pound.

The air freight was up around 12 and the cost to the community over the winter road system was about three to four cents a pound. So there is those kind of differences . But as the honourable member is well aware construction costs end. Just the cost of goods themselves has gone up quite considerably so you don't see an overall reduction in the cost of living. Bu.t hopefully it's been held at a cons tant level. There is a weakness in our system that we don' t have a thorough study or a thorough evaluation in dollars and cents terms of every community served by winter roads and what effects it has had.

I just don't have those figures, Mr. Chairm an. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman , the Minis ter says he has n't got those figures and yet I think those figures could be readily available to him if he wanted to do the investigation. Because we do know that there exists at the present time private winter roads where there is absolutely not one cent of government money goes into the construction of them .

The cost of the construction of the road is borne entirely by the person that is transporting the goods and yet we find that the price of transportation of goods to the communities that are served by the private road system are competitive with those served by the roads that are built by the province and which other carriers or anyone can use and other carriers are not providing goods to the communities at a rate that is significantly lower than that rate provided by private carriers who bear the full cost of the road construction themselves . MR. McBRYDE : Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm a bit surprised at the Member for Birtle-Russell knowing his free enterprise background because we've fallen into his line of thinking here. We feel that the competition on the routes in fact helps to keep the prices of hauling tho se goods down. The former system was a monopoly system, that is nobody else could haul over the roads. To get away from the monopoly system the province had to involve itself in the construction of those roads. The member is well aware of the problems that were developed and the range wars that took place over who was eligible to haul over winter roads .

In these cases there's no question as to the eligibility of different people to haul . So if one contractor is able to break even putting his own road in from Ilford to Cross Lake, break even competing with the other winter roads, then that' s good for him. Bu.t then you would have to ask what would his prices be if there were not another route and if nobody else could go over his road. What would the prices end up being in that purticular community ? The answer to that question is unknown but I think the member's assumption would probably be similar to mine, that the prices might go up a little bit. MR.

GRAHAM: Mr. Chai rman, I fail to understand the logic of the Minister 's argument because while the road may have been used exclusively by one individual, the tendering process that went through for the delivery of those goods, and that included the conStruction of the road, was a very competitive business. When he talks about

1930 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. GRAHAM cont'd ) ••••• monopoly, at the present time the only monopoly that exists lies with the government itself in the building of the roads. The government monopolizes the construction of the roads. To my knowledge they call very few tenders for the construction of those roads and if anybody's talking about a monopoly situation it's the Minister himself who is creating a monopoly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 99(b) - the Honourable Minister of Northern Affai rs . MR. McBRYDE : I wo n't use that word. Mr.

Chairman, I think that if you followed the member's last logic I would assume that he would recommend that the Department of Highways build no further highways. Because they are in a monopoly position because they own all the highways and that's a pretty terrible situation that the province owns all the highways in Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, the argument of the Minister I think is one that will be weighed by those tlult have studied the debate that has gone on.

But at the same time I want to inquire of the Minister if his department has taken all necessary precautions and has investigated all means of providing winter roads in the Province of Manitoba at the least possible cost to the taxpayers of the Province of Manitoba. MR. McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: If he has done that then can the Minister explain to us what steps he has taken to do so. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 99(b) - the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, ;;:es is hardly a sufficient answer.

When the Minister is spending $2 million for winter roads ani he is telling us that he has taken every precaution necessary to ensure that they're built at the minimum cost to the taxpayers of Manitoba, perhaps he should tell us what precautions he has taken to ensure that that has been done . Has he used a public tendering system for the construction of all his winter roads ? MR. McBRYDE : Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm hopeful that the member was here during a considerable amount of the discussion of the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affai rs . At that time I indicated to him that we have two goals.

One goal is to get the winter road in at the least possible price. But the other goal is to employ, train and use local people. Because, Mr. Chairman, this is the message I've been trying to get across and I think the Member for Swan River understands it and the Member for River Heights understands it. If you're doing a construction project in Northern Manitoba and you bring in outside work forces to carry out that project, then it's costing the people of Manitoba money because there are people sitting in those communities that are unemployed.

If we're going to improve the situation in Northern Manitoba for the remote communities every possible opportunity must be taken for local employment. The department has done a considerable amount in terms of hiring local people, training local people and using local forces in the construction of winter roads. There is one winter road, the Island Lake and branch lines , which is construct ed by Me Ke Si construction. Because that is a company that is controlled by Treaty Indians, the Federal Department of Indian Affairs has cost-shared on the construction costs of that road.

So in that manner there has been a dollar saving to the people of Manitoba because Federal dollars have been put into the project. ';['he member may recall that early last season I attempted to get the Federal Government to cost share on the whole winter road network but they were unwilling to do so. So we only have that one contract which is a fairly si�icant contract which is cost-shared at this time with the Federal Government. But, Mr. Chairman, we intend to pursue the two goals in winter road construction because the cost of not employing local people is also very great to the Province of Manitoba. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell.

April 2, 1976 19 31 SUPPL Y - NORTHERN AFFAffiS MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, there are many loopholes in the argument of the Minister for Northern Affairs. When he says cost-sharing will reduce the cost, it won't reduce it one bit. In fact it might increase the cost. Because I don't care whether it's the federal tax dollar or provincial tax dollar or municipal tax dollar, it's a dollar spent. The second point that the Minister fails to realize is that there are people, other than the government, that will employ northern people •.

In the Minister's mind the only people that will employ northern people is the Government of Manitoba and that is a very wrong assessment. There are many many employers in this province who are more than willing to employ local people wherever they go and they employ - I know myself I was in the construction business and I always tried to employ local people in whatever community I was working in and there are many contractors who do the same in the Province of Manitoba.

So when the Minister says that northern people would not be employed if they went to a private tendering or private construction busi ness that's a bunch of garbage. And the Minister should know that. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, the only thing I can base my garbage on is the basis of past experience. Yes, there have been some local people employed in the past and there are some contractors who make every effort to employ local people. I suppose that's one advantage of not necessarily using the tendering system.

Because if we know that Contractor A has a large staff from a remote community and Contractor B intends to bring in his total staff from the south, then we would -give preference to Contractor A. There may be a way, and I'm hoping that the Department of Highways might consider that way in certain road construction in northern Manitoba, to in fact include within the tender or the bid system itself, a provision for employing local people. There is a general provision in some contracts now to employ local people but it's so general that it's not enforceable.

But to put right within the tender system itself a method to employ local people and that's something that I would welcome the member's comment on from his past experience, very extensive experience as a contractor and his knowledge in this area. If he could give advice, especially when we talk about the manpower part of the Estimates, because certainly that is one option and that is one of the options I outlined.

I indicated to the honourable members opposite that I don't have a hang-up over which method is used, whether it's a private company, government, however, as long as that method produced the kind of results that we're after. If it can be shown that the honourable member's suggestion is a workable one then we'll certainly look at that. But there is I guess some difference in hiring· an existing southern contractor even though he might employ local people because even the best ones I think employ a certain percentage of local people.

In some of the cases in which we have worked for winter roads the hundred percent is local people and often the equipment is owned by the local people in the community. So that's an additional advantage when we talk about creating economic development and employment opportunities in the remote areas. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I know of no contract or tender forms that are called by the Province of Manitoba where the contractor writes the term into the tender. Terms of the tender are usually written by the government and the govern ment can write any type of terms they want to into a tender form.

So if the Minister wants to do that he doesn't have to come to members on this side of the House or he doesn't have to go anywhere else. He has the authority right in his own right hand, if he's a right-handed writer and I'm not too sure whether he's right-handed or left handed. But he has that authority himself. I see no reason for him not to do it if he wants to do it. If he doesn' t want to do it that again is his priority. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 99(b) - the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE : Mr. Chairman, I hope the Member for Birtle-Russell didn't misunderstand me.

I am fully aware that the person that asks for bids is the one that sets the conditions of those bids. All I was asking for was his expertise, his advice , because he has considerable expertise in this area. I don't know that many private

1932 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) • • • • contractors and if he wanted to give me that kind of advice I would certainly be willing to listen to it. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, it is not very often that government turns to the opposition and asks for advice but in this particular case maybe it's a personal appeal to one individual and I would suggest that I'm quite willing to give the Minister the benefit of my own experience and give him advice.

I have found in the past that in the field of construction, a high labour market, that it would be beneficial to have a mixture of trained personnel plus local talent. I think that it works best, you get the best efficiency out of the eqUipment on hand and the manpower available when you have that proper mix of expertise plus the labour pool. So I would suggest to the Minister that perhaps in the interests of efficiency that that might be a superior method than the one he is presently using at the present time. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 99 (b) - the Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Thank you, .Mr.

Chairman. I wonder if the Honourable Minister would advise that in the Public Accounts that we received this year, it was broken down in more detail with regards to winter roads expenditures. In the $1,926, 000 how much of this is estimated to be construction contracts for the coming year? I know in the 1975 year-end, of the $1.7 million there was roughly half a million dollars in construction contracts in that figure. Would the Minister advise what the contracts will be for the coming year MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR.

McBRYDE: First of all we can go by last year and what was the experi ence in the last year. My recollection of the figures is that $1. 5 million was the construction and maintenance of winter roads contracts and then there was an additional amount of summer work done, that is route improvement over the summer and that involved also some engineering work to figure out the best route. I think that the breakdown in the upcoming year would be fairly similar to that, the amount of contracts for construction and maintenance. The maintenance costs change depending on the length of the season.

If they don't get the road in till late in the season then the maintenance amount is less. So this year, because it was a good season, the maintenance costs reached the maximum possible. Last year when some of the roads didn't get in on time the maintenance costs were much less but then of course the whole system was not as effective. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Yes. I think the Minister misunderstood my question. Of the monies that we are talking about here how much of that will be let out in contracts to private contractors or to contractors in the general local area. MR.

McBRYDE : Mr. Chairman, there is a couple of ways we do it and any breakdown today is a bit artifical depending on how things look next fall. The rough figures that were used in arriving at this sum are as follows: casual wages would be $115, 200; the fees would be $22 ,7 00; and here is the member's information now, the printing and stationery would be $2, 000 ; the postage and telephone, that whole

section would be $18,90 0; the equipment would be $659 ,2 00. Now what that me ans, in answer specifically to the member's question, is that that's the amount of anticipated equipment hired locally. So rather than an overall contract this would be hourly equipment driver fees. The estimated - and I say this is rough, it's just a guesstimate really of the actual contracts let - is $854,100. The travel expenses which would include the supervision travel, which is fairly extensive, would be $132 ,0 00 and misc ellaneous would be $26, 800 for the total appropriation. MR.

CHAffiMAN: Resolution 99(b) - the Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Yes , Mr. Chairman. In the Public Accounts there was a figure of $3 7,98 9 in subsistence. Could the Minister advise what that covered and also is there anything in this year's budget under that heading? MR. McBRYDE: That would be not for the contractors but the equipment and personnel hired on an hourly basis who stay at the camps along the road route. That would be their costs of maintaining them at that site. This year I am advised that that figure is included in travel. That's why the travel figure is up.

April 2, 1976 1933 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The $132 ,0 00 for travel. How many employees would that involve approximately that would be utilizing this particular service. MR. McBRYDE : This is one of the areas where it's not as clear as it could be. There are a few permanent staff that work year rou..'ld on winter roads, but then there 's approval for a number of staff man years which basically breaks down into sort of almost manhours of work that is within the administrative system.

We can hire so many people under those staff man years for periods of one or two or three months. That 's one area where it is not perfectly clear. The figure is 22 staff but that might be 44 for a short period of time as op posed to 22 for the year round. If the member unders tands the - if there 's any chance he understands the explanation I have given. MR. MINAKER: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can advise why the overall cost for the winter works or the winter roads in 1975 was $1. 7 million and we're looking at something like $1.9 million in the Estimates for the coming year.

If I understood and heard the Minister correctly the travelling costs will now be $132 ,0 00

whereas in 1975 it was $25, 000. I'm wondering why the travel costs have increased five times , or in excess of five times, from two years ago when the total budget figure has only increased py approximately 15 percent . The other question I would like to ask is: what is the form of travel that soaks up all this money? Is it primarily air travel ? On winter roads or what is it ? Does the Manitoba Government Air Force provide this ser vice ? MR. McBRYDE: I think the main thing here is the method of setting out of the figures that are different .

As I explained when I tried to explain about those staff man year changes, before many costs were put in direct projec t costs for the summer clearing of bush for road right-of-way , the total cost would be charged against that particular project, including travel. Now this year we have broken out travel completely. The travel costs overall, for all proje cts , is set out differently . So in the past if we had to fly in a mechanic to fix a machine that would not have appeared as a travel cost, it would have appeared as a machinery cost. Now this year we have broken out the travel costs.

The travel costs aren't that much diff erent; it's shown in a different manner, that's all. MR. MINAKER: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could advise the prime method of tr9.vel that would be in this figure . Is it air trave l or by vehicle ? Also is it the Manitol::a Air Service Division that would be providing most of this service ? MR. McBRYDE: I can't give him an exact percentage. It would be a combination of air travel and of ground travel or basically trucks that we use to patrol and supervise.

In the early stages of the road when you can't drive over it yet, then check on construction work would be done by air. Once the road is in then there's less need for the air travel. I would assume that it is split fairly equally but I'm not positive on that . The aircraft are provided by Government Air Service. MR. MINAKER: I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise us who would provide the ground vehicles that provide this service ? MR. McBRYDE: There is a combination I think.

There is some equipment owned directly by Northern Affairs and there are seasonal vehicles that we get from Public Works that we use during the season. They go back into Public Works for somebody else to use in the summertime. I think that Public Works charges us for the service that they provide , charges us for the use of that vehicle. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether the Honourable Minister can answer this question or not.

The expenditure shown here of $1 32, 000, which is primarily for either Public Works vehicles or Manitoba Air Service vehicles , would they have corresponding figures as sources of revenue in their Estimates for this coming year ? MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHA ffiMAN: Resolution 99( b)--pass; Resolution 99(c)-Ca pital Works - Salaries and Wages - the Honourable Member for St. James .

1934 April 2, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AF F AffiS MR. MINAKER: I wonder if the Honour able Minister would advise us the number of employees involved in this figure and whether they all live in the north or the number that do. MR. McBRYDE: There are 21 permanent staff in that

section and there are 44 positions. I don't lmow if I should repeat the explanation I gave before or not - --(Interjection)-- Yes , those are all located in Northern Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 99(c)(1)--pass; Resolution 99(d)- Airport and Airstrip Operation and Maintenance - Salaries and Wages - the Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Yes, Mr . Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could advise the number of employees involved in that particular department and those that reside in Northern Manitoba. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, there are 76. 5 positions in Airport Operations and Maintenance. This is an increas e over the number last year because this is one area where we had approval to convert casuals. That is the people who operate the local air strip have been converted into regular positions within the Civil Serv ice.

The breakdown of Airport Operation and Maintenance is 1. 5 in Selkirk, 3 in Winnipeg, 12 in Thompson, 3 in Berens River, 2 in Broche t, 5 in Cross Lake, 4 in God's Lake Narrows , 8 in Island Lake, 10 in Norway House, 1 in Little Grand Rapids , 4 in Oxford House, 1 at Pukatawagan , 1 at Red Sucker Lake, 1 at Split Lake, 3 in Shamattawa, 1 at York Landing, 2 at South Indian Lake, and 14 scattered around in the various remote strips. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for 13irtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, while we are dealing with northern airstr ips, we had a rather unfortunate incident last year when we had five northern airstrips which were in essence almost closed by the Ministry of Transport of the Federal Government. The reaso ns that were given and the reasons that were bandied back and forth between the Province of Manitoba and the Federal Government in the exchanges that went on I don't think it was beneficial to the province or the Federal Government.

I think that we got caught up in a little game, almost a game of semantics that was going on and I think it was dismaying to the people of Manitoba. All the time this was going on the people in those five communities were the ones that were being hurt and I was wondering if the Minister could announce to us the program that is going to be taken by his airport construction crews to bring these airports up to the standards that have been asked for by the Ministry of Transport in the Federal Government.

I would hope that in the future there will be a greater degree of co-operation between the Province of Manitoba and the Federal Government and the unfortunate incidents that occurred last year will not occur. If anyone has studied the various airfields in Northern Canada one would have to come to the conclusion that the facilities and the requirements that were met by these various airports were almost equal to those of some communities in other jurisdictions which in fact did not receive the same condemnation from the Ministry of Transport as existed in the Province of Manitoba.

So when you see that happening you have to wonder whether there wasn't some friction between the Federal Government and the Province of Manitoba. I suggest to you that whenever friction of that nature occurs neither the Federal Government nor the Province of Manitoba benefit, but in this particular case it had to be the people in those communities that were vitally concerned were the ones that were affected. I don't think that those things should happen.

I would hope that the Provincial Government does everything possible to ensure that all people are given the benefit of facilities that are available and if a little bit of upgrading has to be done or some changes are made, that they are done as quickly as possible to ensure that the service is reinstituted and those people again enj oy the bEnefits of the facilities that have been provided. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. The hour being 4:30, Private Members' Hour . Committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

April 2, 1976 1935 (MR. CHAffiMAN cont'

d) Mr. Speaker, your Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, reports progress and begs leave to sit again. IN SE SSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Point Douglas, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION present ed and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that there is a general disposition that I adjourn the House.

Before doing so let me summarize that the Law Amendments Committee will be meeting on Monday at 10 a. m. and at eight in t.'le evening and on Tuesday at eight in the evening. The other committees that are meeting, members have notice for them . We will be proceeding to continue with the reading of bills and then Supply. Follovring the Minister of Northern Affairs there will be the Minister of Health and Social Development followed by the Minister of Education. In the concurrent committee there will be the Minister of Renewable Resources. I don't think that there are any unfinished matters , Mr.

Speaker, so I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell, that the House do now adj ourn. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: House is accordingly adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:30 Monday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-62
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 62.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7f228749047e7944552ce1d6cb0b47084fd47696

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