Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND lst Session VERBATIM REPORT Friday, May 5, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLEJAMESM. RUSSELL Number 13 \

May 5, 1972 Tape 308 (Morning) JM- 1 The House met at 10:00 A.¥. Mt. Sneaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! . -------- PETITIONS: ---- MR. T.M. DOYLE: --- ----------- ---- ~r. Speaker, I bep. leave of the House to present a oetition for two areas of Uitless Bay in my district. The areas are Gallows Cove anrl Bears Cove. The prayer of the petition has three rron~s. First of all to upgrade the Gallows Cove Road and upgrade the 'Pears Cow• Roac1. secondly to improve the approach to Gallows Cove Road from the m2in highway and thirdly to nave one-third of a l'lile of Gallows Cove Road. Mr.

Speaker, having driven over these roads on many, many occ.asions I can vouch for the fact that they very definitely need upgrading. This netition is signed by eighty-two residents of the area whiC'h is approximately ninety-two per-cent of those living on these roads. I therefore have pleasure in tabling this petition from the residents of Callows Cove anrl Rears Cove in Witless Bay. MR. NJ ;;\RY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support - ).{r. Speaker, this is a minor ooint: The hen member l~ho just resumed his seat wishes to move that the petition be tabled. M~_D.OX.IA ~ 1 so move, Mr.

Sneaker. ~~NEARY: Yes. I rise to support the petition. Mr. Speaker, I had occasion to visit the honourable member's district prior to the March 24 election and I did hear rt~ors that the honourable member in the conduct of his campaip.n got stuck in the mud a few times. I think it is a reasonable request, Sir, and it is just another promise that was made by the new government. I hope that the temperamental Minister of Finance will find his way clear in this construction season to see that the road in the two areas in Hitless Bay especially 865

May 5, 1972 Taoe 308 (Morning) JM - 2 :-ffi. NEARY: . - -------.. the Gallows Cove ~oad is uo?raded and oaved this summer. "fB::_1iUY_PHY: Mr. <:peaker. I too Hould like to snnport that petition. As the then Leader of the Opposition ~nd r>erhaps acting nenher for the district in the interim hett.;een the resiP;nation of the Fisheries Ministo?~ Mr. Malone~: T hacl many times to sneak on hehal f of the neonle, in the House ,nnrl T kno•.; that we look fonrarcl, Sir, if there is any 1"10ney left aft<>r •·1e <1re fin~shed Hith Mr.

Dovle that so!'le of these monies ••ill he divertec1 for the nse of the neon1e of ~lewfouncll . and narticularilv this area. On motion netition received. MR ~ J:A~R'(: '-lr. "nf'aker, T ask leave of the House to present a netition on behnlf of the pernle of \Jorth Harhour in 1>lacentia !.'est. The nrayer of the petition is for the upgradinc and paving of so~e four and one-half miles of road !earling from the Rurin Peninsula hiphway to and inclniling th<' communitv of "'orth Barbour.

The petitioners noint out that the upgradinp and navin<>: of this narticular road would be ']nit<- an economical nroiect this vee~r. hecause of the fact that there is a fair amount of highway equipment in the area for the work w11ich is nresently being done on the ne~· Hnrin Peninsula highwav. The petition has been signed hv 228 voters, ~r. Sneaker, and I heartily endorse their reqnest anil move that this petition be tablec on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. ~!R. NEARY: -···--- · Mr.

Speaker, I woulcl like to rise in supoort of this netition presented on hehalf . of the residents of North P.arbour in the district of Placentia !!est. Mr. Speaker, T l'lm sure that the honourable members of the House must be really impressed with the number of petitions that have heen presented this session for up~rading 8G6

May 5. 1972 Tape 308 (Morning) JM- 3 MR. NEARY: -- ···-- .. of roads anr road paving and so forth and if the Minister of Finance, Sir. can accede to just even half of those requests we will have road paving equipment running out of our ears this summer all over the province. You will not be able to move, Sir, without bumping into a roller or what they call on Bell Island the voting machines which they refer to as a piece of road paving equipment. But I do hope that the honourable member for the district of Placentia Tvest gets his request on behalf of his constituents in North Harbour.

On motion petition received. '1R. _P~C_I~.F..Q~ : Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of this honourable House to present a petition on behalf of the residents of South Brook, Halls Bay. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that the type of water. supply 1-1hich was begun about two or three years ago be completed. It is about eighty per-cent completed and they ask that the other thirty families that are now not connected to the water supply be connected. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that one of the priorities of any government should be the completion of capital projects already underway in various parts of Newfoundland rather than start a new capital project. So I fully support the prayer of this petition. It is signed by 235 voters of South Brook which is by far the majority, I fully support it and hope that the government will see fit to extend this water supply so it encompasses all the people of South Brook, Halls Bay. I move, Mr. Speaker, that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the departme~t to which it relates. ~- ROBERTS: ·Mr.

Speaker, just before you put the motion, may I say a word or avo to say that I share the honourable gentleman's hope 867

May 5, 1972 Tape 308 (Mornin~) JM- 4 MR. ROBERTS: that the government will be able to see their way clear to providing the money necessary to make the prayer of this petition a reality. I think anybody who knows anything of South Brook in Halls Bay and the whole area knows that this is one of the areas of Newfoundland where this type of municipal amenity is quite badly needed. It is not the only part of Newfoundland.

There are many, many others but it is needed in this area and the petition so eloquently presented by the gentleman from Green Bay states the matter and it is with a great deal of pleasure and considerable interest that I support it. I will be watchin~ the various announcements this year to see if the honourable gentleman's hope does become reality. On motion petition received. ~~ROWE _Q_~_:]_:_ Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of Bird Cove in the district of St. Barbe North.

Sir, the prayer of the petition is that the nursing clinic at Bird Cove be reopened immediately and if necessary any renovations or remodeling be carried out to facilitate the reopening of this clinic. Sir, the petition is signed by some 130 citizens of Bird Cove. From the information, Sir, that I can gather this clinic was closed down some time around the middle of March 1972 after ten years of operation. The people in the area are not quite sure why this clinic was closed down but they think it was because of lack of adequate heatin~ facilities.

Sir, I do not know and neither do the people know who gave the order to close down this clinic but it was open once weekly,before it was closed down,to serve the medical needs of the people of Bird Cove, Brig Bay, Plum Point, Blue Cove, Bartletts Harbour, Reefs Harbour, Shoal Cove, Ferolle Point, Castors 8G8

May 5. 1972 Tape 308·. '(Mo~ JM- 5 ~-. !_0.5.1!-. _(F. 8 . }: River and Pond Cove. Sir. that rept'esents ten communities and about 900 voters. At the present time. Sir, the oeople are forced to travel over thirtv or forty miles of the most deplorable road conditions existin~ in tht> nrovince at the prel'lent time. that is to the nursin~~; station in Flower's Cove an~ they have to ~o about one hundred miles to St. Anthony .if they 1.rish to ~tet to the hospital. This is another example o f the hardships that the people of mv district are experiencing at this time, Sir, and I beg· that the honourablP.

Minister of Heal th look into this matter immediately and inform the people of Bird Cove and the surroundin1 area what is in store for them in the future regardin~t the status of this nird Cove nursinP. clinic. Mr. Sneaker. I ask that this petition be placed on the table of the Ho~~e and referred to the department to which it relates. 869

May 5, J.072 . Tape 309 (morning) PK - 1 'IR. F.ARVF.Y: Hr. Speaker, anything to do with nursing stations or medical clinics along our coast line vlhether it be on the coast line of I abrador or the coast line of Nev•foundland, the Province of Newfoundland or the Island of Nel.rfoundland I certainly support, I understand the situation that exist in my friend's and colleagues District of St. Barbe North. It is not unlike mine . in Lahrador South where peopl~- although in St. Barbe North they have a road to travel over - AN RON. MF."t-'EER ~ Some road: - --- - ·--- - MR.

HARVF.Y: Some road: Rut in my district the people have to he transported by skidoo or boat or plane or lvhatever means they can to get a pat tent to a nursinp, station. I sympathize v1ith the people of Bird Cove and I l~Yould certainly support the petition. 0n motion petition received. J'R. P.S. _THQMS · Hr. Speaker. I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Saunder's Cove, llonavista Bay. Now , Hr. Speaker, the prayer of this petition is that a water and sel-7erage system be provided for this community. I note, Mr. Speaker. that Saunder' s Cove is part of thf' ":'o\m of Glovertown.

Also in passiM>, ~1r. Sneaker, I note that the To1m of Glovertm·m have fon•arded to the !finister of 'lunicipal Affairs and Housing a petition from the residents of ~lovertolm South. Both these parts of the Tovm of ~lovertovm have been incorporated within this last couple of years. These people feel they are entitled to a \vater and sevrerage system the same as the rest of the i"land and the rest of the Province of Nel.rfouncUand. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, and during the past l.;rinter many of the sept1c tanks froze because of the hard winter.

Almost all of the local wells froze and many of the people had to ~o quite a distance to obtain enough vater for their families to drink. 870

May 5, 1972 Tape 309 (afternoon) PK- 2 MR. P.S. THOMS: Mr. Sneaker, T sincerely hope and trust that this administration can do something at least do some little thinp, in regard to this problem in the Glovertown area. I ask, Mr. Speaker, that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. :MR • S • A • NEARY : Hr. Speaker, it p.:ives me p,reat pleasure to support the netition so ably presented to this honourable Rouse by my good friend and colleague the member for Bonavista North, I think, Hr.

Speaker, that prohably the honourable member is establishing some kind of a record in this honourable llouse, I think now just about everyday since Opening Day the honourable member has presented a petition. I understand there are more to come. I would say. Sir. the more power to him. AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. l1R. S .A. NEARY: The more pmver to him, Mr, Speaker • He is what I referred to yesterday as the battlin~ member for Bonavista North, he is in there battlinp, for his constituents and I hope that he has impressed the Mi_nister of Finance and the Hinister of Municipal Affairs 111ith his arguments today. MR.

CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. NFARY: It is just ordinary common sense, Mr. Speaker, it is lo~ical in this day and age that people would like to have drinking water. It is necessary, Mr. Speaker, as fresh air. I hope that the member will be granted the request, the prayer of the petition on behalf of his constituents of Saunder's Cove in Bonavista Bay, On motion petition received. " ORDERS OF THE DAY RON. W. H. MARSHALL: (HINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. Speaker, we now revert to the subject that occupied us yesterday and the subject that is going to 'occupy us for quite some period of time in the years to come.

Before commencing this debate, Mr. Speaker, I want to advert 871

"lay 5, 1972 Tape 309 (mornin

p) Pit - 3 MR_-:._ MARSHALL· or refer to certain comments made yesterday hy the honourable member for 1•1hite l'.ay South in his address. He made the ohservat:lon, he cautioned ap:ain<;t any :Imputation of •·ri.lful neglect or any reference to the taintin~ of the integrity or the impu~ning of motives of honourable memhers on the other side of the House. Nmv I think that position has heen adequately and eloquently ans1ver by the honourahle the Premier.

There is no intent and there is no desire and it wc·uld he totalLy untrue for persons on th:l s side of the House to atte!T'pt to impute ••ilful neplect or to make imputations a~ainst the integrity of the honourahle gentleman on the other side or any honourahle gentlemen in this flouse or for that matter Hho ~<>ere in this House or to impugn the motives. Rut. 'fr. S!'ea!rer. that :f.s one thing.

That is one thinp to he .;;oid. nut I·Jhat T do say and 1ve do accuse the previous administration of is comnlete and abject negligence and incomoetence in handling a project. a project l•7hicr is vital to the economic well-he:lng of our people. T.t is very hard, 'Tr. Speaker, to coo te111plate '"hat 1vent on with this project. T.t is verv hard to contemplate this Tiill ~o. 55 l·!ithout heing motivated hy feelinrrs that range fro111 subdued anr.er to complete and outright ra.[!e.

Because the a-Ffect of this 'hi 11 is that in l CJ66 a 1 i.nerhoard project was conceived and it was esti.mated that it tconld cost jn the vicinity of $5R millions. 1·.'hen ,.,e took office in Januarv, for the first timf' it ~.ras revealed, the shockinp: truth t•ras revealed to the people of this provfnce that this project is no•• goin~ to cost $114 million or it has cost $114 million to date. This bill by secti.on (7) reveals the· further truth that at • least another $5() million1; are p:oing . to have to be borrowed in order to complete this nroj ect. Po ,.7e have an estiamted escaJ at ion from $58 million.

Mr. Speaker, to at least $164 millions. Now what is the effect of this? AN RON . I>IF.!IB!':R: Inaudible. 872

Hay 5, 1972 Tape lll9 (motidng:) PK- 4 ~'R. ~tf\R.SllALL : l~ell $160 mill ion, the honourable Hinister of Finan ce reminds me it may go to $llin million but we are so used to dealinP. in millio ns of dollars t he rest of the inheritance from the other side. f rom the administatio n,t hat a million here and there did not mean any difference to them and in our calculati ons and in the overall awful picture presented by this, it cannot mean much here the cost. because you have at least a $100 million escalation in ll'hat does this mean? I would like to take, :1r.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman opposite, the honnurable members of this House dotm to a house not far away f rom this honourable Chamber t~h ere a ,~tentleman is livin~t in conditions that you t~o uld not find in the sixteenth century,a retired 2entleman who has a hea rt condition and i s unable to bring oil from downstairs to upstairs to keep himself Harm, he and his family,b ecause of his heart condition. And is unable to lir,ht a fire in the house because of fire regulations . I t,,ould like to take the honourable ~entleman opposite, I would like to take them to this house and to explain 87 3

Hay 5, 1972 Tape No. 310 NC - 1 to this gentleman and to the people of Newfoundland why we cannot adopt as effective a housing policy as we would wish to in the future. Purely and simply because $100 million extra of our money has to be devoted to this project, because $50 million has to be borrowed directly by the government in the next few years.

I would like to go with the hon. the member for Bonavista North who eloquently has placed petitions before this House from time to time and has spoken about the conditions in Hare Bay and Dover in his district of which we are cognizant, very cognizant. 1 would like to see him explain to the people in that area thE' fact that our development programrr•es will have to be curtailed somewhat, will not be as extensive as we would wish them because of $100 million escalation by reason of this project.

The same with the hon. member for Labrador South. \ve know the conditions in his district. t~e know that he is fully aware of them, he spoke about them in the Address in Reply.

I would like to go with the hon. member for Labrador South and explain to the good people of Labrador South that it is Roinp, to take a little bit longer than we had first contemplated to bring the people in that area from the conditions which approach the conditions of at least the 1920's and I think the hon. member will concur when we say in some cases indeed it is the conditions of the late twentieth century, that vie cannot tackle this problem as effectively as we otherwise would. Why? Because of the $100 nillion escalation in this cost. This is what must be explained. We have to address ourselves, Mr.

Speaker, as to how this came about. How did this shocking situation arise? How could this nightmare develop? There has been reference, the hon. Minister of Finance in his eloquent address. The member for \Yhite Bay South in his very effective address referred to section (10) of the Melville Pulp And Paper Limited Authorization Of Agreement Act, and therein lies the big problem. Therein lies the ~roblem where the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, the cabinet, was given power to guarantee such loans and indebtness and other g .. ; 4

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 310 NC - 2 obligations and to enter into any contracts as the cabinet deemed necessary. Mr. Speaker, I can tear that up and hope that that type of legislation will never appear again in our statute books. &~ HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is perfectly prepared to yield the floor for a question but not a speech, Mr. Speaker, MR. ROWE (W.N.): I want to ask a question, would the hon. gentleman care to say who is to blame for section (10), MR . MARSHALL: I am glad he asked the question, Mr. Speaker, because I will get onto that right now.

In his speech last night, the bon. the member for White Bay South took great pains to point out the fact that three bon. members on this side, the hon. Ministe~of Finance, Justice and the bon. member for Fortune Bay, were members of the government at the time this went through. True, they were. But the fact of the matter is they were members of this government because they presumed that such powers would be exercised in a reasonable manner.

When they determined that they were not ~eing exercised in a reasonable manner, these bon. gentlemen had the fort.itnde to cross the House and to stand up with the small little band that was already across and joined them in their efforts to bring down the government and to bring about a sensible, sane government which we have right now. So let us not spend this session, Mr. Speaker, talking about what the hon, members here did and what the hon. members over there did, that does not matter.

The fact of the matter is that there is a marked distinction between the hon. members on the other side and the bon. members on this side of the House who joined the opposition in the previ~us assembly. This distinction is this, when they saw that matters were getting out of hand, when they saw that the engine was running out of control, when 875

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 310 NC - 3 they saw that the faith that they put in people in 1966 was misplaced, they had the courage of their convictions to cross the floor and join the opposition in the face of great criticism and that, Mr. Speaker, is a distinction, I was verv. verv. Rurnrised to hear the hon. member go on at great length and to tr:y to impute and to try to insinuate that the members opposite were the only ones against such a power that was given in that act.

The hon. member conven:iently forgot last year, first of all, just before I get onto that let me point out that this party has always stood for curtailment of the power of the xecutive ~uncil,of the ~abine~ to borrow. In the only real effective policy convention that was ever held in this province in 1968, or 1969, the bon. member, if he cares to refer to the resolutions adopted by the Progressive Conservative Party,will see that the curtailment of power of a cabinet to bo~row was one of the top resolutions that were adopte~.

Subsequently last year, and this is what the bon. member opposite forgot to mention yesterday, in the previous session of the House, I introduced a bill to curtail the power of the cabinet to borrow,to change The Revenue And Audit Act completely,to effect a change so that cabinet could no longer borrow and to stop this mad .. borrowing without reference to the people. Hhat did the government of the daydo? How did they deal with this bill, this resolution? I will tell you how they dealt with it.

The description used, to which they all joined and agreed including four of the hon. members opnosite who voted, stupid in the extreme, we were told. ''stupid in the extreme~ "'They do it in every province of Canada, so we had to · do it here~' When in actual fact, Mr. Speaker, they do not do it in every province of Canada and there is no reason why it should be done here and it should not be done here anymore. 876

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 310 NC - 4 . ..,. I. g ;g~&\'!! •tp $.4e m thif .14gisla;t:l,o'Q itt &ill rNe·. 55., in ~~Pt!~~ ~(3.) Q ~ca.t~on. of ~~t.

Ui!4~ n:ctifm {3) .the pQWU" -of t.lile, 'tS\1Ut~t 'to h~uow fo:r t~ ~- of ~lf¢1n of thi~'8; ~.roJ~t: .b lil!ltte4. to .$iS.Q :D11ll;I;QQ. ~t In4i.~at!!S ~o tb«. peop~ ,of: thu pn$ft ~bat lt l(l~t11l.:4 ¢0~t· $S:O mtll:to:D· I!IDJ:e ~ Cot~~P~e ~e P•I!Ojec;t. l~ut it tthould, all$o l:.e an ilPdiC<1adon 'l:c! tbe 'P*'Ple, of this ptcwia:ee that \fe ilnt•d. .:w re£er to •the: peepie's Rouse whett. we waut ~- 'fr.m~~. time 1to dllte: t:ath.et' t:lilan thdis' llllfd b&rrmriltg ·-:f!d seetet .. . ~~.

Mt., Speabt, ~heu u come bactt to the. wo.Eds of dte Bon. melliller for Wlt:lte Ray Soilth .and ·li:ts talk aboUt :he, we uot. reQo:AAthle •. b~ ~- -~~ vat e,ab.~at ·tO bott~. 877

( Morning Session Hay 5, 1972 Tape no. 311 Page l - MRW Mr. Marshall. this borrowing power. ru~ RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.. ~lARSHALL: That may be so. That was the indication yesterday given Mr. Speaker, by the honourable member. MR~~OWE (W.N.): I am entitled to an explanation which I am permitted to have under the Standing Orders. I at no time and in no way said, Sir, that l was not responsible for the powers which the ~overnment got.

I said, "I was perfectly willing (I believe these are the e.xact words) to shoulder my share of the blame , one forty-secondth, one out of forty-two parts of the blame for the - AN HON. MEMBER: One out of thirty-nine. i1R. RO'..JE {W.N.) : One out of thirty-nine although there is no division recorded as I mentioned last night. I am quite willing to shoulder one part out of thirty-nine of the blame for giving the government those pow<>rs. I hope the ministers who ask for the powers and got the powers are equally willing to share the blame. MR. CROSBIE: Who has some of the powers? MR.

MARSHALL: Yes, that is the point we come to now, Mr. Speaker. HR. ROWE (W.N.): The han. Minister of Justice hangs on to the power. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker,I believe I have the floor. MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. MARSHALL: I believe I have the floor, Mr. Speaker. I will tell you who exercised the power. In June, 1971 of that year - AN HON. l1f-.MBER: Who was Hinister of Justice then? ~ffi. MARSHALL: In June, 1971 of that year a report was made to the government by D.D. Dick Consulting Engineering Limited concerning the dire plight of this project. \vhat happened?

On June 25, 1971, $9 million in interim financing was borrowed by the government pursuant to this ve~· power. That is who exercised the power. Again on October 1, 1971, when the pro1ect was running out of funds, who exercised the power then, when we were in the throes of an election? \Vho acceded to the secret 8,., 0 { u

May 5, 1972 Mr.Marshall Tape no, 311 Page 2 borrowing and cabinet then? No, Mr. Speaker, the words, the imputations with respect to the borrowing in cabinet, the secret borrowings in cabinet without reference to the People's House are hallow in the mouth of the hon. the member for White Bay South and the honourable gentlemen on the other side. It remains to this government to recognize the danger and this government will deal with the danger as it will deal with all the other problems that it has inherited.

Another reason as to how this project ran out of kilter is because of the very philosophy adopted by the other side, by the previous government, this policy of "develop or perish." We have heard it time arid time again, It became a very, very popular policy - very, very popular words It remains to us to make sure that that particular policy does not revert to "develop and perish." That we will see, Mr. Speaker, the trouble with that kind of outlook is this: It denotes an air of panic. ''Develop or perish" they say. It denotes an air of panic.

Consequently, schemes were adopted,no doubt with good intentions for the development of this province, hut schemes were adopted, projects were adopted without proper feasibility studies. We were rushed into it. We got into areas where government did not know with what it was dealing,all because of this "develop or perish" attitude. It went even farther than that. As a result of this, Mr.

Speaker, the great vision came that Newfoundland was to have its Chicago, its New York and its Toronto all together,As a result of this we saw it extended to the very sociological roots of our country in the oppression of people and the adoption of a forest centralization policy. Again how did it happen? Obviously, it happened because government failed to arrest the problems or to deal with the problems when it became evident that the costs of this project were escalating out of all contemplation. They did not come to grips with it.

They appeared to sit there paralized with the obvious signs of economic disaster all around them. I wondered how this could occur, I wondered, But I think we ~et the answer- we got the 879

Mav 5, 1972 Mr. Marshall Tape no. 311 Page 3 answer from this sitting,from words of the han. the Leader of the Opposition. '.llhen the hon. the Hinister of Finance in this House was informin r, the House of the government's polic' ' towards municipal taxation of Crown corporations and specifically with respect to the Holiday Inns he indicated at that time that he ~vould table the agreement between government, the hiding company of government with respect to Holiday Inns and Atlific Limited,which he did the other day.

But at the time he mentioned that, the han. the Leader of the Opposition used words and I am paraphrasinp:. I am not quoting. "Good, I would 1i ke to see a copy of that agreement." He had never seen it. Similarly, when a commission was established by this governme1 t to look into the ownership of the liquor leases, similar words are mentioned by the Leader of the Oppsotion, the han. Leader of the Opposition. He would 1'-ke to know who is behind it. This I suggest, Hr. Speaker, is one of the root causes why we find ourse1ves - not iust the han, Leader of the Opposition but all the ministry.

I say that statement reflects an attitude of all of the previous ministry. I cannot conceive, Mr. Speaker of anybody in this present cabinet, not only in the cabinet but any of the han. member ~< on this side of the House - if there is a paper or a contract tvhich they wish to see, if there is a matter which they wish to have determined, they would not be supporters, t 'hey wottld not be in the cabinet or indeed supporters of this government for very long unless it were pt'oduced and satisfa.::torily explained to them. So this then is one of the major reasons of how this situation occurred. It is no good.

Here again I advert to the fact that we are not questioning the motives. We are not questioning the motives of the honourable members but it is no good with words to say what vou intended to do. It is what was done which counts. I would ask the question: \fuy did not the honourable members: who were members of the ~abinet in the previous administration resign forthwith? 880

May 5, 1972 Mr. Marshall. Tape no. 311 Page 4 It was found on DeDember 23 last that a loan for $100 million deutschemarks had been obtained from the Ressische Landesbank pursuant to a guarantee given by the leader of the government at that time which, as I believe they will agree, they will concur, was given directly in contravention to the understanding that the cabinet of the day had with respect to the giving of that guarantee. m1y did they not resign then,in Heaven's name?

Why they did not really resign before when they found that this complex was running wild, that the costs were running wild and that the affect was going to be the strangulatbn of services to the people of this province, of health services, of education se"rvices, that is where the error was made, Mr. Speaker and that is what the honourable members opposite will have to answer, from now until they ~o to their great reward,to the people of this province. Then again we have the other instance and I would like to hear an explanation with respect to it.

On December 1, when it was found that $2 million had been paid to the Union Bank of Panama, which the hnn . Minister of Finance has described, during that period of time the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the han. member for White Bay South, in all fairness, made 881

May S, 1972 Tape No. 312 NC - 1 representations to ~et it back. But that was not enough. That was not far enough, Mr. Speaker. Durlng that time the Leader of the Government was pressing the bon. the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for ~~~i ~ e Bay South, was pressing them to give more money to this compl•'X and knowing the situation, knowing that $2 million had been siphoned off to a phony bank, knowing that the Leader of the Government was supporting at the time this particular action, why in heavens name did they not resign? Certainly they ought to have resigned.

They definitely ought to have resigned when they found that that guarantee was given. Now the hon. member for lfuite Bay South in his remarks in addressing himself to that particular question said, ''Why should they?" "Why should they?" He doubted that it would have any effect,that it would not have brought dmro the J!:Overnment. Mr. Speaker, he seems to have forgotten the tenuous manner in which the reins of government were being greedily Rrappled hold of by the admini~tration of that day, on the basis that there was no clear mand~te.

If the bon, gentlemen had resigned from the cabinet and departed from the government at that time, it most certainly would have brought down the government. There would have been a change . Mr . Speaker, this pro.'ject demands now and it demanded then action and quick and firm action.

It is a cas~ of months, days, weeks, hours and in fact minutes matters Consequently the hon. gentlemen on the other side have their responsibility, they have a heavy responsibility for .1eprivation of the people of this province of the necessary services to which they are entitled .F'or a long period of time yet to come and every time they get up and present a petition that requires the expenditure of money, I would suggest,before they bring it in, they soberly consider the drain on the public treasury as a result of the incompetence and neglect of the previous administration. 882

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 312 NC- 2 Now, Mr. Speaker, I pass to what we found, when we assumed the government on January 18 of this year. I do not wish ••• I am not going to repeat because I could not repeat,in ' the magnificent detail that the hon . the Minister of Finance furnished it yesterday, the conditions that we found on our entry into government. I well recall speaking to him the day after,on January 19 I believe it was,about a matter that we were supposed to get together about and he said;"For Heavens Sake!

" or words with a reasonably similar connotation that I cannot be permitted to repeat here - "we better get together on this mess in the linerboard mill," And get together we did and he has lived with it and we have all lived with it. As he indicated, he spent 60% of his time on this project and.as we saw yesterday. he has done a very magnificent and fine job. I will dare to say this, that not only 60% of his time, his work time, but 90% of his time afterwards has also been employed,as with most of the rest of us,on this terrible situation. What did we find? We found there was no management.

We found $115 million to $119 million government backed, government guaranteed, that there was no management. There had been warning that management was necessary from the Dick Consultants, no management, no effective management was in vogue, it was not there. The markets were not solid for the linerboard. They were not firmed up. There were no effective markets, no guarantee of aarket and here was the linerboard mill supposed to go on stream in October of this year and there were no markets for it, a most serious, serious situation.

The woods operation, the hon. the member for Labrador North, of course,would be interested in this. The wood operation was completely out of kilter up there. There was no log handling device to load the logs in Goose Bay or Stephenville. 8B3

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 312 NC - 3 This project is not a case of loading two or three crates of kleenex boxes from Goose Bay and bringing them down to Stephenville. There are over 300,000 cords of wood to be brought down. T he project had been allowed to get on at this rate. The project had apparentlj been milked by the Canadian Javelin interests and there was a great acceleration, an excruciating acceleration of costs. So what did we do?

We immediately entered into ne~otiations with the Javelin interest with respect to this matter, \,•hich resulted in this agreement. 1 am !!Oinp, to spend now a fe\~ words on this agreement. I was shocked last night to see the han. Leader of the Opposition, not only quoted but I sa\~ hi!Tl on C. J .0. N. televi:-don, say that they approved,the opposition approved in principle this agreement but that it did not see why the government, l think he used the description, "Mr. Crosbie had to pay $5 million to Mr. Doyle," and the hon.

Leader of the Opposition is nodding over there and I believe I have quoted him correctly. His \~ords were to that effect. The hon. Leader of the Opposition should be ashamed of that because he knows better, Mr. Speaker. He knows that Mr. Doyle is not being paid any $5 million. Canadian Javelin is heinP, paid the amount indicated in this bill. ~R._ ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. MA~SHALL: The time for humour passed last October, Mr. Speaker. This is a very serious matter, very, very, serious matter. Mr. Doyle is not being paid, let us be quite clear about that, any $5 million.

IVhat is being paid under this agreement and I will go into what is being paid under this agreement, is being paid to Canadian Javelin of which there are about 20,000 othe~ shareholders beside Mr. Doyle. The only reason that Mr. Doyle holds any degree of control in Canadian Javelin is because of the fact that the previous administration entered into a dummy collusive agreement with him, with respect to the 884

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 312 NC - 4 preferred share issues to the government whereby ~30,000 preferred shares with voting. rights were issued to the government so that Mr. Doyle and the government in concert could circumvent the. huge body of shareholders. So let us be, let us be quite clear about that. What are we paying them? The $5 million? We are paying nothing but the cost of this project, nothing but the cost of it 885

"'a y 5 , l Q/2 Tape 313 (Mornin~) PK - 1 !>IlL HARSr'ALL: S5 million i s referable to development expenses prior to 1969 of .Tavelin. These development expenses- ue just do not take thinf!s by rote as the previous administration did. Ve have been advised rv competent advice, consultants, Pea.t, 1-!anvick, Hitchell ; that this is so.

So that is one , •oint that 1 would 1 ike to bring out and it is very important for this reason! 1 have heard. as a result I believe of a sta.tement made by the honourah.J e Leader of the Qpposition,an observation passed on one of the ra~io programmes this morning, '\:rhy rlid they not give the $5 million to Helfare?" This vms the ~v-ay it was painted. Hell first of all vre are giving the cost of the pro:i ect.

Secondly, 1 Hotlld 1 i'·. : to remind the good lady ~ ·:rho made that ohservat ion that but for the excesses and nep:!Pct of the rrevHm e; administratjon ~ve would have about $70 million to give not onlv to welfare but to education and health and what the heck have you. So SS million been riven for predevelopment expenses. One hundred thousand dollars r.as been given and that relates exactlv to the amount that Javelin put in to the buildings over jn Harmon. Then v•e come to the dehts. l~e are assuming the debts. This seems to hot her the'" a v•ee hit. Hr.

Speaker, the dehts of the :--a rent and subs1darv coMpanies. The onl y de: :ts under this apreement that are bein,z recognized are debts "to•hich are legiti!ll.Jtely part of the project that uere loaned to the project, that ~·7ere expended in the nro.iect, and thi R ~.;e have verified and ~ve are having verified by T'eat. 'fandcl-- and ~!itchell. Tf it so hanpens that any of the dehts mentioned in the

Schedule were not expended in the pro_iect then we have taken safeguards to protect the people of ~:e"toJfoundland by the write-off, set-off. It is purely and simnly that. ~fR. :1-fl.fRPHY: ;·'r. Sneaker, I ~vonder if the honourable gentleman ~1ould pernit a auestion? Does this refer to trading debts like 886

May 5, 1972 Tape 313 (morning) PK - 2 ~m. MURPHY: several up around the Goose Bay Area - MR . MARSHALL: All debts that are legitimately part of this project are going to be recognized, will be recognized by the government, as is indicated in this Agreement. Now, Mr. Speaker, those debts and maybe you can turn around and say you are giving the money again to the Javelin Companies , but I remind again that Canadian Javelin have 20,000 dissident shareholders. That the money that is being repaid is money that has gone into the project and we are going to deterime it. l·lhat was our alternative for this , Mr. Speaker?

AnYIV'ay .this is a good deal. This is as good a deal as we could get. If we had to put together this project we would not b"e in this situtation. I am not sayinp that, Mr. Speaker. But considering the mess that we found considering all of the factors,this is an excellent agreement whereby ~•e are just taking over the project from the hands of the Javelin interest to protect the jobs of the people in the district of the honourable the member for Labrador South and the honourable the member for Port au Port. We are paying for the cost of the project and not one whit, not one nickel, not one cent more.

Now \V'hat was the alternative? The alternatives that the hono~rable member for Hhite Bay South mentioned, some of which I have mentioned as well. The liquidation of the project as he indicated, of course,is unthinkable. At the time we had $100 million into that project and this province could not stand liquidation of the project by selling it at a fire sale,as it cannot right now. We could have let it wallow on the way to bankruptcy,as it was going because of the lack of direction by the previous government. This is equally unthinkable.

The only other alternative that presented itself was the possibility of court action. Now I must say that this consumed quite a bit of thought: quite a bit of thought by us on the other side, But the 88-7

1·Tay 5, 1972 Tape 313 (morning) PK - 3 ~'R. ~AR~HALL" nrohlem td th i. t was this that ~overnment faced, the fact that the honourahle member for l•lhite Bav South and the honourable Leader of the OnTloSi.tion know full Hell,that if this matter t••ent befor"' tj,e courts under the trust deed . the trust deed itself was not as effective as ~·e would hav0 liked it. He t-rill come to that in a moment.

Tf t.re had gone to courts and got such a huge matter embroiled in the courts. it might have been tlvo . three , four or five years before the matter PaS resolved. \Ve were told that you had to pet J•mnHPement personnel in their . nretty vell immediatelv. '~ ·Je t•7ere to lei that the t·•oods operation had to he fi r:"eci up. 1-'e Pere tolcl that there were no markets etc.

Fveryone knm··s on a project <1::: pipantic a::: this that there Pas no t-ray lvhile this matter v1as emhroiled in the courts that we could satisfactorily assemble together the necessary mana~ement, sales and technical staFf that were necessary to resr:H~ thi s proje,·t from the bt·ink of destructio!' , So that is one of the ma.ior reasons why w·e could not J!O to court.

There t•!as another reason as Hell, there ""'~' more th"n one reason. am just citin~ some of them nm1, as they come to mind. lf w~ Lad :;<one to court in this matter ,_,,. had to have regard to the defenses that t·•ere availahle on the other side. lt 1-1as a point of fact that the previous government had put the Javelin interest in the position ~·here they might possibly they certainly could raise it as a defense and even though the opinion • our opinion,t'-'aS that !'"rhaps it t·ras not as strong a case as we had, you still had to take cognizance of the other side.

But in any event concessions for leases in Lahrador t~ere not J!'iven to Javelin Hhen they requested them. I reiterate what the honourable the J'finister for Finance sA.'d yesterday,that the memhers on the opposite sjtie, the then government of the day, Here right in not givinp, the leases in the circumstances. Rut they were very wrong, t'he ::;overnment Has very tvrong in ~?etting this province in the 888

Hay 5 , 1972 Tape 313 (morninr.) PK - ;, HR. MARSHALL: position vhE're so manv Lundreds of square miJes in Labrador t.rere pledged to Javelin. This heinp: so, they had put t1.,~mselves in a position t·Yhere JAvel in, the Javelin interest had a reasonable casC' to anst-Ter court action. Then again we c•tuld have expropriated, so they say. Tlut there are n•o or three factors that must 1--e horne in mind in addition to the fact that Javelin Company fq a dominion comnany. F'irst of all T revert ap;ain, "\-Je seem to have ~rr. Doyle on the hrain, hut tve must remember there is more than Hr.

Doyle involved aga·n in Canadian Javelin. The credit of our province is at stake when you talk of expropriatinr.. I do not !"uppose any member in this House t.rc,uld have the slightest hes:!.tation of expropriating from Mr. John Christopher Doyle himself. Rut that was not the if:; sue, Hr. Speaker. 1t l-'as not only Mr.

John Christopher Doyle but there Here 20,000 other shareholders at least, comprisin)! people t·7ho were influential in the. financial communities of the t-mrld and yes, indeed, cornprisinr. \vid01·7S and orphans tJho Here as innocent as the poor tvidors and orphans in this province tvho are goinp. to suffer as a result of this particular project. So He could not expropriate. There is another factor as well, as a.result of this. Granted if you are going to expropr;ate and pay the value there could perhaps be no quibble. But then we come to what is the value.

The previous government through their NALCO concessions,as I have indicated,gave huge tracks of timber resources into the hands of the nromoters of this project. Nov we had advice to the affect that maybe, maybe, these timber resources had little value. But the word "mayhe" was there. It is a fact that we had other advice to the affect that the timber resources, the timber concessions could amonnt to many, many millions of dollars 889

'fay 5 , 1 q 72. Tare 314. Page 1. and -.1e did not feel, as f air .;s HE' ,,,anted to ~e tn the shareholders of Javelin, not to ''t:.

John r:hristonher l'ov]e hut to the shareholr:lPt:s of .Tavel in • we dicl not feel that cme of our natur:J.l resources whi.ch t·.•as given for the nurnose of clevelooment. that we should be put in the nosi.tion of having to rena' ' it, to nay for it to ?,et it back, at the> cost of mavbe $25 or $30 Mill ion in Drder to bri n;r it back to it.<: rightful nlace, tn tbe use of the neonle of He~··foundland that it Fas always intenderl to hf' fc-r, thnt the ~!overnment .Pave off to a thi rrl onrtv but that t.•e hilve h a ck for t he neonle nf Ne~->fo u ndland ri~>ht nn•·....., nnrsuant to thi.s agreement .

I could go on, "'r. Sneaker. 11h0nt this narti.C'ular ar-ro:>ement. There is annther asr>P.ct of it, also hroup:ht up by the honourablE' member for Hhi te Ray South. This re l11tes ~o the court actions and relates to altl!l:'natives t·•hich t.•e mav h<~ve hacl.

Thet:e is an alternative menti .nned about court action ;md in that al temative thare mir.ht have been, as thP hnnourat-lc> memhP.r fc-r h'hite llav ~onth has i11dic:ated. there vP.re the \·cahush roval tie~ that han heen nledq:ed by the Javel in Paper, hy Canadian Javelin i\s so:>curi tv for the rerfomance nf th:!.s project h .: its sub~iiliarv Javelin T'aner . These rnval ties aJT\O\tnt to some 525 nr 526 mi 11 inn. There is about $1.5 million on dennsit v::l.th the "'ontreal Trust Comnany,v~hi.ch is the trusteP., under that arranpement.

Cauadjan .J;weJ in not John Chdstonher Dovl£, hut Canadian Javelin is getting that back. That was questioned.If it was not nnestioned,it certainlv admits of exnlanation as to t-rhv that is being given back to them. ror this reason the only way we could get it "t.rould be hy court act inn. The only manner in ~,rhich this vmuld be resolved would he probahlv in four or five or 'lix years. Tn anv event most of the money tvoulrl not he pain except over the next ten. fifteen or twenty years, nursuant to the agreement.

The oresent value of that money ,as 1ndicated hy the exoerts of Peat, Manrick and the actua ·.·ies that we called in to examine this, is aoproximatelv $12 million. 890

May 5, 1972. Tape 314, Page 2. We \-Jere informed that unless this proiect had, unless this !Jroject got off the ground, !I;Ot off the :·~ round irmn:odiatelv there 1voulcl probably he a further delav of at least another va;ar t-~hich in acidition to its other great impediments on the oroject,fiscal strain on the nroiect itself. would directly result in nayment of about $14 mil 1 ion o=xtra in interest and other related charges. hy gain~ after thi.s narticular fund. So we were not g~ining anything No\-•, Mr. Sneaker, those are the alternatives that "'e had. Those are the alternatives that ~1e examined.

This is the agreement that we came up "'ith. 1 \-7ant to drcn,• your narticular attention again, if T mav, to that portf.on of the agreement relating to the $50 mf.llion. 1 could tell you just a \-7ee litt]P. storv about that. As is the custom with ne1v governments, a bill lvas drafted by the verv competent civil service, members of the Public Service. They follow along,as we have found in other avenues of government, along the same pattern as he.fore many of 1vhich hv the way will he changed over a period of time.

One of the clauses that they had in, w:d r.h they exhibited to us, was a clause to the effect,which was natural because thev were just following along what have been done over the years_ there wa s a clause to the effect the Lieutenant Governor in Council could borrow as much as it wanted to, to finish the project. In other W(lrds, similar to

section 10. Our committee saw that and immediatelv took directions. Consequently you will see in this legislation now a provision to the effect·taat the aggregate of nublic monies to be expended, loans to be guaranteed under this

section shall not '"ithout further reference to the Legislature e:-:ceed the sum of! $50 million. That is the way in which we intend to deal with the matter in the future. The honourable member for \Vhite Bay South mentioned (again, it was well taken) the honourable Premier mentioned it last night and we all concur,before any sale is made it should be referred back to the Legislature, I sayt hollm~ words from those who allowed the debt of this province to accelerate 8 9 :L

).(ay 5. 1972. Tape 314. Page 3. to itli gigantic nroportions, but an observation nov! well taken, havinp. seen the light of dav. Mr. Speaker, I want to _iulit mention nm.r that it was never the.'! intention, it ~·ould never have been the intention of this government at any time in the future to sell thili proiect ~dthout reference to the legislature, any,-,•av, in anv event. The onlv reason why that particular clause might have been in there ~•as because - the only uay that would be used "~<'ould be if we got far in excess of the market value.

If there \o7a.o; anv ouestion at alJ that the interest of nenpJe of this nrovince was not beinr, served it '"auld have been referreo to- the Legislature anywav,but Jam delighted that it i s goin~ to come hac~ to the Legislature in any event. l.Jhat do ,.,e do? Hhat ahout the future? Hhat ahout the future of this pro;ect? T support this Bill as all members on this side support it. •.-lith a certain amount 0f qualification, l>ecause it is not our hahv. Tt is not our nroject. It is not our "~<'llV of operating and it "~<'as hrou?h t about and set upon us by a previous administration. But I can tell vou this,Nr.

Sneaker, that we intend to pursue in the future a course and we are determined that this nro_;ect is p.oing to succeed, that the iohs are going to he there and that the people of this nrovince are not going to be strangled to the extent that thev '\.JOuld have been stranp.led if the nrevious administration had continued on in its inent, careiess and negUgent manner of handling this narticular situation. One en t1m other thin~s in closing ,snoken hv the honourable ~·ember for h'hi te Bav South.

I could ~o into a long litany,which I am not, if 1 ,,,anterl to 1 i th resnect to certain of the ma.tters which he sa :I d. I feel and T emnhasize arain and I come back to the ori!.••inal statement ~1hich '\.7as made. uhich I made, that the honourable members on the other side who were nart of the government,from now until thev go to the grim reaper will ans1~er to the neople of Newfoundland as cabinet ministers collectively. I am not talking about the individu:J~s, hut as cabinet ministers collectively why they alloued the noose to be tightened around the throats of the people 892

Hav 5, 1972. Tape 314 Page 4 . of Newfoundlan d "~<ithout t ak:int: the ore vent ive ac tion that thev could have . That is the ~itunt;on. The re 1 <; .,n ooi.nt in t his House get ti n~ un and talking abo ut members on the other sid e ~;ho were here in 1966, and the y voted fo r so and qo,hecause t he fact of t he matter is this: ~ 1966, this '-felville Pul o f. T'aoe r LiMited Act ••a,; -,as !':ed. It was passe d again envisaging an exoenditure of $58 million . 1 t ~·as "rovided in t he Act, it was c.ontemol .. tl!' .l that the f i nanci np.

Pas tf'l come f rom France. 'there "'as to be 1 nvolvement ,.,; th a concern cal l ee Sod.ete Eno;a i.n that country. The thin P. broke t!ntm • Tt was not hea rd f rom. It did not STJring to life a.<>ain, 'lr. Sneaker, tmt il November 21, 1969, when 893

Hav 5 . l q72 Tane 315 (Mornin r ) .w- 1 MR. MARSHALl.: all of the ~embers here present. and the three members here nresent were O'Ter nn the other. side then in onposi tion not su!'portinp the r.overnment. when the honourablE' ~ember for Hhite Ray South ann the honourable the Leader of the Onoosition and the other honourable members who tvere then members of the cabinet tvere in it. There is no point t~H· ing about that. I feel , ~ ·!r. SpeaJ.-:er, as T say. that I cannot - this leJ?islation moves any individual from feelings of suhnued anr,er to outrir.ht royal rage.

The fact that this amount of monev has to hE' snPnt is an indictment on the dPrnocratir orocess.

Tt is an indictment ~gainst the nrevious administration ;mrl I hone to C:od that the memhf'rs on the other side of the House ancl. those tvho su!'portecl the previous fldT!'inistration in the elections of flctober and '1arch can exnlain to the people of Ne~1foundJ and "Thy they have to lahour so far hehinn the rest of Canada and indeed will probably have to for yet a ] ittle while longer. nure)y and simply because the giantic sum of $40. mi1lions or ssn.. millions must even be found in this year to keen a pro.i ect going which nm nut of control because of inepti tncle. ne~lh: ence ,1n<l incompetence of <1 no"w defunct administration.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the honourahle member for Labrador North. ~yq_o.n_HARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speal:er, I will be verv brief. First I would like to comoliment l'lY colleague, the honourable member for Phite Bay South ,for speakin g so ably an d representin .P' us on this side of the House so well in his presentation of last evening. I think he did a ~ood iob, I think possibly one of the better nresentations that have he.en heard in this House so far this ye<~r. A~ain, Mr. Speaker, I tvould like to compliment the honourable 894

May 5, 1972 Tape 315 (Morning) JM- 2 MR. WOODWARD: Minister of Finance for doing his homework so well and presenting so ably the problems of the defunct Javelin project that have been so close to me and to the people of my area since 1966.

As far as commenting on the bill itself, this I will not do but I would like to say that to mention the Forestall Report or recommendation, which I suppose is very close to the people and the woods harvesting operation people of the Lake Melville area, as the honourable Premier mentioned and as the honourable Minister of Finance mentioned that it is the intentions of government to carry out the recommendations of the Forestall Report. Am I correct in that, Mr. Speaker?

I can see the problems and I think that possibly,looking around the House here today and looking at the honourable members that are sitting in the House,very few people have been as close possibly to the woods harvesting operation as I have been personally myself. Sir, I have to say this,in all fairness,that the operation left a lot to be desired.

The people, especially the.private sector of our community, have been very disturbed and were very concerned about the Javelin Operation and I hope that this is the end and it will b~ing some stability to that operation so that our people·can put confidence into it and therefore go ahead as a private and commercial sector and invest in the community where we belong,t'o develop that portion of t~e province that is so dear to us. But, Mr.

Speaker, I think we are missing a point and I say that the concept of 1966 of the Javelin Operation did get out of control primarily because o_f maybe monetaring the whole project itself. The monetaring sense got out of control and eventually we end up by the government taking over the operation or by purchasing the operation, whatever the case may be. There is one thing that I would like to 895

May 5, H72 MP.~_yn_o_mJ.ARD : sav,;mcl from Tape 315 (Mornin~) nractical exnerience. that this is a ~i~htv nroiect. The ma~;nitucJ,, of de•Telonin.l? the ~mod in the Lake Melville area is :1 mi~>hty, mirrtv and it is a harcl verv. verv hard task. J~ - 3 ~ow I Sl~pose that I cotQd sav that the inex~er.ience. the ineFficiency of the ~elville neople. left ct lot to be desired. I thiPk it c1id and I think the voters and the r>ennle that so ah l y snnno rterl me in the October anc the '~arch election will ~Co alani" with thAt ancl therefore. Sir.

I have no reservations in savin~· it. 11ut the nroblem is what is .-.oinP" to hanne:-. in thC' future. Mr. Sn.e<'llcer, will the oneration be all roses Frop herenn in, will the nroduction of 55r'l.f)l)() cords of <-mod whicl• rPn.~esents somf'Where in the vicinity nf hetter.than one million tons] OnP million tons. Sir, the handlinr of one mill ion tons of simnl e rod· or. sand :involves a lot of work. Th€' h;mrllin~> of nne million tans <'r '1~1').0(1(1 cnrc'l" nf 'IJOod, C:ir, renr.Psents More wnr.k. 1·'r• lPve a verv shnr.t n.~·Ji!"';'ltion season.

C:ir, <'IS I have PY.nl'lined ~n~ as thP nrPmicr mentioned and I n.-.ree with hi~ thnt rnavbe the oner.1.tion of the mill itself c-<~n _rn on prod11c tion,, re cmi te effic-ient hut 1-1e h.1ve not vet solved our nroblerns with the shi nnin? of the ra1v materi Rls from the Goose BRv-L::tl·e !'"el ville .1ren to the mi 11 in Stephenville. This is a problem, Sir, and it is ? very big concern of ours. Sir. T would ask the ~overnme>nt to bear. 1.rith those problems.

Maybe it is advanta~eons to look abroad or to look at some other areas and find out that the economic nPcds are far. ~reater or the return is far. greater to get raw materials from some other source than the Lake. Mel ville-Hapny Val lev area. The problem is, Sir, I think the whole concert of this mill whPn it w11s- in 1966 or f!:oing back maybe a lonp. time before thnt 8&6

~ay 5, 1Q72, T~pe 316, Pa~e 1 -- apb HR.. WOODWAP.D: was the fact that we ~mnt to harvest the Labrador wooC:. ---- _,. . He want to harvest this industry, this resource industry and we want to bring I.abrador into the stream of 1 ife. I think it is happy news for our people to see that the government is taking over and they ,,,ill hopefully inject some measure of efficiency, put it on a proper productive level and not be dealinr, "rith maybe the undesirable people that l·7e have dealt with in the past:.

It has been depressing, Sir, over the last three or four years a lot of our pr:lvate people, our hu!'iness people of our community have suffered because of the fact that .Javcljn has not lived up to their resoonsibiJ i ties in the local area.

Possibly at times our Chamber of Commerce felt that we 1-rere headinr for 1111tybe chaos or bankruntcv, the uhole community as such, hecause of the inept l~ay that they ran their business and refusec' to pay their hills. t think now, as you look around that there are a numher of bills,and a number of local people in the community that are sufferinr because of the fact that thev are owed money hy this operation. I hope, Sir, that when the government do take over this will not happen.

I hope that in the immediate area of Lake Nelville thev will p:ive the businesses, private sector of that area an opportunity to play a

part in the operation. I ~sk the rovernment to do this, Sir. Aeain, Sir, there is another problem that we are faced with in as far as getting the materials, I uould be Quite happy if this year we can get 23n, 000 cords of ~~ood out of Goose Bay. I think it is as much as the oort can handle or the facilities can accommodate that we presentJy have. I would like to see, Sir, if we are going to produce this amount of wood, other fa~ilities that will have to be built.

We felt that the Javelin operation came in and got what uas available in the community, but they put very little in the community asfar as fixed assets of any nature weTe conceTned, Sir. We hope that when the government do take over the operation, they will see fit, Sir, to put some permanent assets into the community and to play a role in that 897

1~ay 5, 1972, Tape 316, Page 2 -- apb (Morning) community by which they live. Goin~ back to my colleagues,Sir, the hon. Leader and the hon. member for Hhite Bay South as ,,,ell as the hon. member for Fogo and the hon. member for Bell Island, great emphasis have been put or their responsibility. their neglect, because of their association with the previous administration. I think it is very unfair, Sir, that the government should point out anv one or any number of people or lay the blame on any individuals. I bec.arne a part of the Smallwood Administration going back to July 28 and I am verv proud of it.

I am not proud of the Javeline organization. J saw the loopholes in the - Javelin organization, I think l.re saw j t a long time apo in f:oose Bay. Sir, that is maybe one of the reasons why I sit here in this House today, just to help plug those loopholes. I do not thin~, Sir, that the hon. member for St. John's East explained that the sins of the father must ~Tell be visited upon the children.

I hope, Sir, that the nresent povernment will not hol4 -we have a number of gentlemen sitting on this side, hon. ?entlemen sitting on this side of the House, people t<ho came from respectable fall'il ies and have taken a very active

part in the coi!ll11unity, are ~~ell respected and who were so ably sent here by the people they represent. I hope Sir , the method that this government will adopt will not be to personally persecute for the shortcomings of one whole administration. One thing ~re must remember, Sir, one thing we must remember is that the trend has been reversed. That previous administration had a full mandate a much greater mandate than the present government has and they acted on behalf of the people, Sir.

I do not think it is the individuals themselves, I think that our Newfoundland people should help to bear that responsibility also. Because, firstly, they were responsible for sending those ?eople to the House,as well as myself. MR. A.J.MURPHY: -- - - - - - - To act on their behalf, not John Doyle's HR. WOODHAFD: We did not act on John Doyle's behalf. Hhen I say we, we 898

}lay 5, 1972, Tape 316. Page 3 -- apb Uforninr.) did not act on John Doyle ' s behalf. I think Sir, that it is \~elcome ne\JS that \·Te arE' hrins!'in~ some stability into the Javelin operation . He lool< forward. I mn sure the people and the communi ties of Lahranor, may he tl1e vrhole of Labrador (I think the hon. member for ·Labrador South will speak la -:er· and he vill supnort me) with hope to the government's tal<eover • .Arai:-1 there is another very imnortant issue. takinr back the concessions. He I·Tere in a sense not happy about having promoters con troll inr out forests.

He have a lot of private peonle who Hould like to ~o into developments in J.ahrador as well. T hope that thE' hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Deve.lopment \~i 11 give con.sicleration \vhen some of our "rivate people go to him to ash. for timber stands or. smaJ 1 concessions and that the "~>!hole concessions wiJ 1 not be given solely and wholly to the T.abrador Line-rboard Limited. Thev "tdll h:we an opportunity too, Sir. to help in the development of those resources and to produce SOIT'E' of Nlr til'1: .,~r stands. I think.

Sir, that this is a p:reat nroj ect. 550,000 cords of ~moc1 renresenting more than a mil.: ion tons, involve a lot of shinPinr., 1.1s T said before. 550,000 cords of I•'Ood and the spin off from that indu~trv c~n keep the areas, the depressed areas in Labrador South,as the hon. mel'lh<>r "~>Ti 11 mention later, Hill being viable economic stability to thc•se areas.

When you think in teT.Tfls of !!.Oinp: into J.abrad<'r you '1•1ill fine, from ~n operational point.that you are !!.Oinr. to need a !!.rE'at number of the peonlP who move from this island to some other narts of Canada to !!.O into Lahrador to help in this development, hopefully, not on a transient basis. I think the ti~e has come when tranaients should not r.o someplace to reake 1.1 fast huck and get out to go and invest it in some other part of the province or some other sector.

This government have a responsibility to ask our NP,·Tfoundland people if that is the case or to encourage thel!l to p;o into l.a~rador, to Goose Bay or Happy Valley or the ·~el vilJ e area, take up residence there and help in this great proiect. He support the Bill in principle. Those things I would like to 859

¥ay 5, 1972. Tape 31~, Page 4 -- apb (}!orning) have continued. I ~.;ill say this, Sir, that I hope there is no hreakdm ,on . I would like to see the continuity. If this partj_cular operaUon were disrupted for one reason or another it lvould set us back a lonr: way , as I have explained before. J hope, Sir, in the wisdom of the Mini st er of Finance and Economic Development that there will be continuity and the thinp: w]ll continue as it is continuing today. 9fi0

Tape no. 317 Page 1 - MRW May 5, 1972 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the previous hon. members who have contril::uted so well to this debate have covered most of the facts leading up to the introduction of the bill which government feel is absolutely essential and essential that it be approved by this House of Assembly as soon as possible. I do not propose to go over in detail again the facts that were presented in chronological order b\' the hon. Ninister of Finance yesterday. Mr. Speaker, there are just Olo or three points in the beginning that I want to draw to the attention of the House and to clear up.

There has been a great deal of talk about the Hoose of Assembly in 1966 or in 1967 when it passed the Melville Act providing that the Lieutenant -Governor-in-Council would have the right to expend monies on this project over and above that anticipated at th~t time. There is a great deal of debate on the wisdom or otherwise of giving an open-ended guarantee to Canadian Javelin at that time. But, Mr.

Speaker, it is my feeling that if the House of Assembly decides to confer upon any government the awesome po1.;er of borrowing without reference back to the House of Assembly, then surely the responsibility of government to maintain adequate control and to make sure that the project is viable is that much the greater. This I believe, Mr. Speaker, is where I

part company with my friends on the opposite side of the House. The issue before the House today, if it is an issue any longer or if rather we are only talking about history, is not whetb.er the House of Assembly should have conferred this power upon government. There is a school of thought and a very sound, sensible school of thought that indicates that it should not and it will not again. But whether or not when this project started and in particular when it started that the controls and management were imposed that you would expect from a responsible government.

The original contracts between Javelin, Melville and the others and Ensa, Corfu and the Schneider-Crusot Group were tabled in this House. These contracts, Hr. Speaker, were a bit more restricted than the agreement that was signed 901

May 5, 1972 i1r. Hickman. Tape no. 317 Page 2 on November 21, 1969. There was one clause in that agreement which was very significant and very significantly is not in the November 21 agreement of 1969. That clause was that Mr.

Doyle or his companies, before the government would advance one solitary cent or make any guarantees, would have to satisfy government, would hav~ to comply with these agreements by showing, pursuant to a guarantee of a Canadian bank, that Javelin would invest $11 million in working capital in that project, not that they had to put it in that day but nothing less than a firm, binding guarantee from a Canadian i·ank would suffice. I have no idea why the French backed out of the project. I do not believe they really wanted to get out o~ the project.

Mv recollection is that they subseouently instituted court proc e edings against Javelin for breach of contract and for failure to proceed with the financing they had arranged. I do believe that the reason why ~\r. Doyle (this is a belief only) backed out of that project was th~t there was no way he intended to comply with the requirements that there be ~11 million working capital guaranteed by a Canadian bank. This, Mr. Speaker, was not included in the agreemen ·t of November 21.

The $11 million working capital is there but the key requirement, the mmer's requirement from Javelin's point of view is not in that agreement. The other requirements of that time, of the $11 mdlion, of the federal participation, both through ARDA and Public IJorks, well we know the story on that. It could be, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable Arthur Laing was not the jackass that the government suggested he was.

It could very well be that when he had refused t~ proceed with these federal pub lie works in Stephenville and Happy Valley or Goose Bay that he had some idea that this project left a great deal to be desired. Then we come, Mr. Speaker - ~ HON. ~rnMBER: They went ahead with the work at Stephenville . MR. HICKMAN: On a very, very limited scale,!1r, Speaker and not the kind of project that was envisaged and necessary to take the 200,000 tanners that were in the original conception of building a chip mill. 9(•2

May 5, 1972 Tape no. 317 Page 3 Mli.ROWE (W~N.): There was something about municipal services- MR. HICKMA.t'l: The municipal services project is on-going now. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are all sorts of things which transpired in between, The hon. the Minister of Finance and Hr. Wells saw fit and properly so, to cross the House in 1968. lvhen I heard the han. the !;\ember for White Bay South last night ridiculing the han. the Minister of Finance and saving that this is his finest hour, I agree that it is.

I agree that there is no man in this province today entitled to assume that yesterday was his finest hour anyone more than the Minister of Finance. I know somethin~ about it, Mr. Speaker. It was a year later that I found myself in opposition. I know something about the abuse that the Minister of Finance took. I know somethin~ about his determination to bring to the attention of the people of this province the financial position to which we were heading.

I have heard him in the House say time and time again that the public works of this province would suffer, that Newfoundlanders would suffer, that the petitioners who could come looking for water and sewerage will suffer because of the 1vay that this project was proceeding.

The abuse, the personal vindictiveness that he took and subsequently that I took for taking that position,! ilould hope that this House will not see again. 1 do hope that when the hon. member for Bonavista North,who seems to have more petitions than anyone else, whether that indicates that his district has been more neglected in the last twenty-two years than any other district is not for me to say, I do hope that when he replies to these petitions that he will say: "Ladies and gentlemen of Dark Cove, Gamba, your project cannot be met this year not because of lack of sympathy on the part of the present administration but because my hero let you down." That is the only honest approach that he can take and his people will thank him for it.

But, Mr. Speaker, during that time there was a group known as the Voting Trust. 903

May 5, 1972 Tape No, 318 NC - 1 MR, HICKMAN : That first group did their work and did their work too well. The original voting trust committee consisted of Mr. Den:ls Groom as Chairman , the government representative was Mr. Frederick Russell and the Javelin representative was the same man who is there now a Mr, l-Ieismer. Mr. Groom and Mr. Russell committed an unforigveable sin insofar as this project was concerned, they took their job seriously.

They turned up at meetings of Javelin, They went to directors meetings and they started to shm,• their concern for what was going on as it related to this project here, Mr. Groom is gone. I found out yesterday for the first time that Mr. Russell and Mr. Groom submitted reports to the Leader of the Government, expressing the concern that they had and pointing out certain inequities that were already transpiring. Mr. Russell is no longer there. What has happened to the present voting trust I do not know. But I would hazzard a guess that they never met.

I am sure they did not make a nuisance of themselves insofar as Javelin was concerned. I am sure they did not turn up at directors meetings. But simply because these other men wanted to discharge their responsibilities and it is a long story because I heard the story, Mr. Nat Noel, Mr. John O'Neil and myself, as to how these men were gotten off the voting trust. This is history and I do not know if it is that relevant today. Mr. Speaker, we come to the agreement of November 21, 1969. The final negotiations for that a~reement took place in London, England. In the summer of 1969, the government retained Mr.

Nathaniel Noel and Mr . John O'Neil, two very competent lawyers, to work with the lawyers in the Department of Justice, in fact they became the lead negotiators insofar as legal word was concerned and they did their job well. They were to act and to protect our interests. They did it too well because it became very abundantly clear that if there were three men in Newfoundland that 904

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 318 NC - 2 MR. H~CKMAN: John Christopher Doyle did not want to see in the summer, nor did he, was Nat Noel, John O'Neil and myself. We were accused time and time again of trying to scuttle the project , so come October, Mr. Noel and Mr. O'Neil were dropped. Now remember, Mr. Speaker, they were protecting the interests of this province more than anyone else of that time, not in making policy but in trying to write into the agreements, i n trying to keep into the agreement, for instance,the $11 million working capital guaranteed by a bank. But, Mr. Doyle did not like them.

They told me in October, 1 1o1as not in government then, that they had been dropped. MR. MURPHY: Was that a cabinet decision? MR. HICKMAN: I have no idea. I dn not think they know to this day. Mr . Noel is realistic enough I believe to think that there may have been another reason why he was dropped too. He supported me in a rather nefarious venture that I embarked on in October of that year. But be that as it may, they were dropped.

But let us see what happened on November 21, 1969, when the guarantee agreement is to be signed, the one that is going to make or break this province and has gone a long ways towards doing that.

The two leading solicitors and negotiators were not there nor did they see the final agreement. and indeed they were so concerned that someone might interpret their previous work as approving what was now in the agreement and having known nothing more about it than what they read i~ the papers that there was a group in London, that they sent a telegram to the Leader of the Government confirming that they had not been involved in the final negotiations of the agreement. t hat they did not know what was in the agreement, that they would assume no responsibility for it and confirming certain recommendations that they had made.

But worst than that, Mr. Speaker, not worst but just as bad, no lawyer from the Department of Justice was taken in on the negotiations of the final agreement. The final agreement was negotiated in London by the Leader of the Government, 9G5

May 5' 1972 Tape No. 318 NC - 3 MR. HICKMAN: the then Ninister of Justice, Mr. Curtis and Mr. Donald W. K. Dawe, Q.C., Mr. Curtis' partner. This is how the Province of Newfoundland finally got into the bind that we are in today. !·'hen I hear suggestions, I will say to the han. member for White Bay South that with what he had to work with last night he did a masterful job.

But when I hear all these insinuations, the Minister of Finance, the member for Fortune Bay, the Minister of Justice, they mcst take responsibility for all of this, 1 .t us make the record clear as to where the responsibility for the November 21 agreement lies and the shenanigans and the chicanery that went on in concluding that agreement. Now Mr. Speaker, surely if we are talking about the past and maybe it is only relevant in that it 1ustifies and indicates very clearly that the present administration has no other course to follow than the one it has followed.

If it is relevant, surely the issue before this House is the management of this project from the day the first nail was driven sometime in 1970. You can make all the agreements in the world and you can write into the agreements protections and the guarantee agreement has these protections as to the previous agreement, that the government has the right to send in project engineers, the right to send in chartered accountants and everyone else to control the expenditure and to report even daily or hourly to the government.

They make great reading, but they are worthless unless a government is prepared to avail of that protection in order to afford some control over the project and this, Mr. Speaker, was not done. I can recall during the first resolution in 1970, before this House,when a select committee was sought to look at the linerboard project, my responsibility during that debate was to pay attention to these 9 (, 6

!-fay 5, 1972 Tape No. 318 NC - 4 MR. HICKMAN: par ticula r protections that were not being availed of. I did not need to be reminded by lookin~ i t up in the papers, but the hon. gentlem en on the oppos ite side of the Rouse who were th en sitting over here, pr actically laugh e~ me out of the House of Assembly . I can remember one bon. minis ter as he then was said , '"The member for Burin wantsa battery of engineers. be wants a group of cha=ter ed accountants to go out and check on what is goir.g on out the re . " Oid you eve ry hear anything so ridiculous?

Then when t was bold enough to su ggest t hat this was going to, if l.. ft uncontroll ed, place this province in deep financial trouble, I am sure the hon. members will reca ll the take-off that the then Premier did . 9u7

~~ay 5, 1972 Tape 319 (morning) PK - 1 ~-'R. HICK!1AN· The member for Burin,"the unpatriotic member for Burin" he said. "He sP.3.d that if we do not control the project ~1e will he in deep, deep, deep financial t.rouble"to which there was loud desk thumpin~ on this side of thP House. It does not -lome any good. It is not good for my ego to say today that that has l1appened.

But if \Je are looking at history, if '"e are looking at the conduct of the administration, the previous administration as it relates to this project let us look at the way that this project Has managed from the day it started construction in Stephenville. The opp.·si.tion are taking the position that there are many courses of action open to it.

Hhich leads me to the question as to why in Hay of 197l,'W'hen there was clear default, when the Department of .Justice had come to the concJ.usjon that Doyle ~1as in default, Jevelin ••as in default based on the Dick Report that they had no longer sufficient funds and they Here running out of finances , why '"'as there not a notice of default given then? The project l,ras not nearly in the critical stage of construction. ~ · 'r. Speaker, it is in DOH. But no, Mr. Speaker, I do not knm·r ,,rhat the reason lvas. But that is not the action, Mr. Speaker. that followed. Rut rather, Nr.

Speaker, and I have heard, when you think of it, Hhen you sit in this I!ouse as I did for the last couple of years and if you talked about the financial position of the Province of Newfoundland or that l·Ye were being jeopardized by these projects,l-Ye t•rere al'W'ays being accused of being unpatriotic or stating facts that might effect the credit of the province. Hhen you realize, Jdr. ~peaker, that while all of this t·!as being said that Hr. Doyle had been given minutes-of-council by the backload to peddle around Europe during the past summer to try and raise funds to continue this project.

He had nothing to offer. Fis assets had been mort~aged. The assets of the project had been mortgaged. There was nothing left for him to offer hut one thing,the guarantee of the Government of this 9G8

Hay 5, 1Q72 Tape 3lo (~orning) PK - 2 J~. HJCK}~~~ Province. That is what he trotted around F.uro~e in, '.fr. S!'eat-er, the suml"er of 1'171. in his pocket , and you talk about affectin_(! the credit of this province. SeptemhP.r 9 he Has given one. ~lr. "'nhonev Has then the Minister of Justice and l~r. Curtis PaR hi~ ~o]jcitor. ~f r. noyl<' 1 S solicitor. On SepteJl1ber o he ~<ras given a ~r.inutP-of-council for $fiO million to horrovr in London. On the loth. of ~er>temher he vras p.iven another one to l·orrovr 240 mi 1.1 ion Swis~ franc through an -European bank.

On October lR, he was given another one for 60 mi llinn ~~· iss francs. On Octoher 12. he ,.,as given anc>t' •er broken down :l.nto narts. 1 ~0 million SPiss "rancs hv two loans of fiO million. Ne<vfoundland 1 s credit, Nf'•·rfoundland assets heing trotted the finandal 1vorld of Europe,in the financial markets, in the hack pc>cket of .John Chri~topher noyle. '·lr. Soeaker, that cnnnot he blamed solP.Y on the leader of the ?Overnrnent of the day. These vrere minutes-of- council . decision~ taken in ·:.ahinet. The lo«seness. the loosene~s of the controls over John Doyle at that t:l.me stagr.ered the imap;ination.

I,ct me r.ive vou one exaT!Iple, in Octoher ~'hen he was over in Switzerland at one noint he rai~ed l00 ~1llion francs to he financed hv one hundred promisary note~ of one million francs each p:uaranteed hv the Government of Net.,foundland. ~o the Government of "e~doundland s:l gned these note~. One hundred notes. one million francs each , sent them over to S1o1it::erland , and the gentleman from Phom the money tvas heinp; horro.,ed wns a shake-out from somewhere in the ~iuul~ East said he did not like the quality of the paper that he wanted fine parchment for his notes. He. t·ranted them in l:!vinp; colour.

So they sent hack one of Mr. Doyle 1 s men vlith the ne\v pink slip, the promisary note ready for signing. Never sip:ned? No question, they t·7ere signed. Rut there waR a rath!!T unnsual discovery found by an official of T!lY department. Hhen they carne l-ack tvith the one hundred notes of 100 million francs each,that they had sljpped in five extra and 909

~ lay 5, 1Q72 Tape 319 (morninp,) PK - 3 HR. HIC!OfAN: ------ that one hundred and five had heen signed and when this r·ras put to Mr. Rossini and the Doyle group his ansHer ~·ras, "well, you can never tell, J might lose a few hetween here and Switzerland and I Hant to make sure I h; ve one h'.mdred notes to be disposed .'' But these sh·~ mmi.gans t-'ere certainly kno"'rn to the administration. Does this deter th~rr. from continuing to advance money? Does this- AN !'ION. '1'£ ~ !BFR' InaudiHe. :·tR. HIC.l~ Pardon? AN HON . !"lf.l-ffiER: Inaudihle. MR.

HICKN.t\N: Signed hy the ~ 'inister of Economic Development, John C. Nolan and Javelin Paper Corporation Joe Rossini and the other man's name I cannot read, Ravrnond someone. To keep the record straight, this plane for transnortinr the son-in-la~-' or the son and daughter-in-law to Europe on the S~>iss vacation,that r.ras tried to he tied in '1-rith the project , that they r•ere given a plane apparently or rented a plane to flv over these nink !<lips to S•·ritzerland. AN HON . 'HE'I-IDER: Inaudible. ~ 1R. HJ.CK'I'AN: 1·/ell, Mr.

Speaker. you may see it is unrealistic to expect any p.:overnment uhen they are in pm~er in October and <m election is imminent to suddenlv pull the plu~ on their pet project at that time. But this started long before October, it was on-going in June. The stom sip.nals r.rere up in ~ray. I am not at all impressed and I am sure this Rouse is not impressed when I hear that in. December of 1971 the Treasury Roard orders an investigation into Mr. Doyle's affairs or the affairs of the linerboard pro,iect. AN RON. ME'I-ffiER : Inaudible. MR.

HICKMAN: If I can quote the honourable gentleman correctly that in December to the char~in of ~r. Doyle and his associates , Peat. Man~ic k , !fitchell and r.ornpany '\oJere instructed to forthPith tnvestigate the spending or their expenditures of this $24 million that was advanced. But they did carry out the investigation in 910

May 5, 1972 Tare 319 (morning) PK - 4 ~'R. PICKMA ~l: necemher. HR. H. N. ROTTE: nut that '·•as not the point of that particular investir-ation. NR. llTCK''AN~ --·-- - · Rut whatever the point is. Mr. :"-1eaker, of the investi~ation is not very impressive. 1t does not v!arrant that a government that has the confidence in Decemher of fortv-four percent of the people of Ne\vtounrllanrl suddenly shovr sone concern over the ,,,av the project is heing manar.ed. But T had expected th.o honourable gentleman from the other side to come in and say, like in law almost confess in a·void. ,.He had prohlems. Fe had certain responsihiliti PS. 911

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 320 NC- 1 MR. HICKMAN: We were not privy to some of the oral reports. We do know what was contained in the other reports from Dick and Company because they were in writing.

We were aware last May or earlier that kev l!'anagement was essential. \~e should have taken the action then and we did not, and because we did not take that action we realize today we are placing t~e .present administration in a position where they must take this ac~ion and take it now.'' It is one thing 'to talk about cabinet solidarity and to say that if the former Leader of the Government were here he could defend himself, but I have noticed and I am sure that the people of ~ewfoundland have taken note of the very obvious disassociation -1th that gentleman during the past couple of months. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there was a day when that was not a popular position to take. Mr. Speaker, we do not have to be reminded on the government side of the H0.use, that from here on in what flows from our efforts will be our responsibility. This is why I think it would be very appropriate that we once again repeat it for the record, that this bill before the House today does not guarantee beyond all reasonable doubt that the 1 inerboard mill is going to be successful.

Y-'hat it does guarantee is that from here on in this project will be completed under the closest possible surveliance of the government and particularly the Minister of Economic Development. If, when this development is finished, we still have our troubles, it will be open to the opposition to say that rnayhe you should have used another approach. But it will never be open to the opposition to say, '~e did not get you in the mess you are in." That they have forfeited forever and a day.

I believe that the bill before this House not only shows some determination, a great deal of determination on the part of the government not to run away from a nasty situation. It would have been very easy, maybe not easy but cowardly but certainly a lot less work to say, "the other crowd got us into this trouble, we will shut her down and forget 912

~lay 5, 1972 Tape No. 320 NC - 2 MR. HICKMAN: all about it and we will paint a Liberal sign across the mill so that everybody in Newfoundland will remember forever." That is not the problem or task that is facing this government right now. It is a task that no government in any province in" Canada, has ever had to face. It is a financial burden on the people of Ne\vfoundland that no other Canadian living outside of our borders has ever had to face or would every tolerate facing.

When \ve used to raise it in opposition, there used to be grPat gloating over the heavy water plant and some problems in Saskatchewanand Manitoba with two industrial probjects there that are not totally dissimilar with this one. I have no doubt that there has been a great deal of concern and soul searching in these provinces because of this. But the financial burden per capita imposed on Nova Scotians because of the heavy water plant is anly chicken feed to what is imposed on Newfoundlanders.

Last week I heard the Premier of Nova Scotia lament and state very categorically, he said, "we have now been in power for nearly three years, because of financial commitments made by the previous administ~·ation, we have not been able to introduce one new programme in our province, that is worthy of the name, yet we have increased taxes every year we have been in office." Thetr burden, brought on by an unusual scheme in Cape Breton, is not nearly as serious as the one that Newfoundlanders are facing now.

Fortunately for them, they have a per capita income that at least can help them shoulder whatever burdens they have a bit better than we can. The bon. the member for l-Jhite Bay South last night expressed some doubt as to any constitutional problems which we may have run into if we had gone the road of straight expropriation by virtue of legislation and letting the courts decide on any compensation. Now, Mr. Speaker, our advice was twofold. Number one - there was no way we could pass

an act in this Legialature that would be enforceable 913

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 320 NC - 3 MR. HICKMAN: against Canadian Javelin in the sense of getting the master records, the master information, the master proposals that are in their Montreal offices or anything else that we wanted outside this jurisdiction. There was another opinion, and it is a different opinion but again it shows the futility and the lack of wisdom of going any route other than this one, There was another argument where there was a great deal of dissagreement amon2~t lawyers.

That was that if you accept the principle that a Provincial Legislature cannot legislate to affect a Canadian corporation, that it equally follows that you cannot pass legislation to take the major assets from their subsidaries in which they have almost the controlling interest or total interest, and thereby indirectly affect that company, that Canadian company,without again running smack into the constitutional problem of it being ultra vires. I do not particularly agree with that part of the opinion but there are lawyers who disagree and constituional lawyers who say it cannot be done.

Because I believe when once Canadian Javelin decided to put monies into this project in Newfoundland, that they brought themselves within the jurisdiction of this Legislature. But there are constitutional lawyers who say that what you cannot do directly by legislation, you can do indirectly by going around a circle and affecting that company by expropriating two of their major companies in this province. But wherever we turn, the one piece of advice that we receive, we can say it now, we could not say it to Mr.

Doyle because,as far as he knew, he had his notice of default that we were intent on going to court and so we would have, if we had to. But the advice that we got from Peat, Marwick, Mitchell and Dick and Company, the counsel involved, was,if at all possible, stay out of the courts because if you once get down in the court house, and if you once have to appoint an interim 91<1

Nay 5, 1972 Tape No . 320 NC - 4 MR. HICKMAN: rece iver, who by ~h e very na~ure of his ap~ointment has to continuously go back to cour~ for app roval for any expendi tures or prog~amme that he want s to follow, that th ere is no way that th is mill can start up in October and maybe not this tim£> nex t year . So you cannot sue. You cannot exp ropriate realistically . You negotiate. The bur den of these negotiations were carried by the Mini s ter of Economic Deve lopmen t. To me and I am s ure t o him, it was a great pleasure , not a v indica t ion but it was a great pleasur e the first day ·we met Mr.

Doyle and his as socia ~es. They appro ached us with the same fervour and the same domineerin~ approach that they had been so •1sed co gettin g away with in t his province for a long, long time ·and it took them about five minu t es t (" rea lize it was A new ball g~me. 915

~lay 5. 1972 Tape 321 (Mor~in~) JM - 1 MR. HICKMA.~: ... ...... ___ _ it took ther1, 1 would sugiest, less than that to realize that thE' peo)'l e flf this nrovince were not goinp.: to be nushe•d around any more and thPn they resorted to t,7ri ti~!'. letters ann savinl', ''h'e are ~e1np.: made the whiopinr board. You are beinr: too h<J.rsh on us." ~lonsense, ~·lr.

Speal-:er, thev bep.:an to face for the first time the hard-nosed negotiations that if they had been carried out all through this pro.iect would have prevented us from cominv to this Ponse todav ;me' askinP.' for the House to approve the hill we have before us .not the kind of bill that ~~i 11 go dmm in the annals of this House of Assembly as being the House's finest hour ,not the kind of a 't->ill that the people will stand here in ten years time or tt~enty years time and sav. PI was in the House tY'hen that was passed and I a!'1 awfully nrond of it." Not that kind of a bill.

If it succeeds ten years from now there will be no ooint in comming in and saying, "It took the Tories to pet it going, because they should never have been in the position where they had to get it goinr,. But, Mr. Sneaker, it is the kind of a bill coupled with the determination of this administration and tvith thE' prodigious capacity for tmrk that the Minister of F.conomic Development has and he is comnlaining that he soent sixtv ner-cent of his time to date Thl't, I suggest is consir'!erably less than will have to be spent on this bill in the next six months.

Ririn~ of management; negotiating of marketing contracts that had not been negotiated to date ne~otiatint': a satisfactory shippinr contract ~•hich has not been negotiated to dat(' tryinr to get. and he t-Till and government will, trying to get the forestry operations in Labrador operating on a viable basis; negotiations with the two !'aner comnanies for the right to acquire some of their wood durinp the interim period because apart altogether fr0m their holdinftS. do not let us for.get, Mr. Speaker, that the rest of the timber 916

May 5, 1972 Tape 321 (Afternoon) .JM - 2 MR :...._RICKMAN_: stands in this island, for all practical purposes, are leased to a gentleman named Shaheen. f;o the iob is not p,oing to be that e<'ll'<V. The people of Newfoundland, I am convinced, when they returned this government to office with a verv massive majority and when you look at the gerrymandering that hail gone on in the electoral districts, electoral boundrieR, you ~lill realize ius t how massive that was, they returned us with a mandate to brin~ to them the facts, be they pleasant or unpleasant. We have had to bring to them rather unpleasant facts.

Any responsible member of this House of Assemblv will surely have the courage to go to his constituents this year and say, "Your .ius tifible needs, the clinic. the hospital, the paved roads, the snownlows in Labrador South. all justifible, things that every other province in Canada take for granted today are going to have to wait not because I have failed to make your case when I presenteit vou petition, not hecause the government is not anxious to do this work but because there was an albatross nut around your neck called the .TavE'l in or the Melville Pulp and P aner Hill and you have to pay ~or it and you have to wait.' If that anproach is t<'!ken then I think that ~ewfonndlanders will be satisfied that there is a genuine concern on both sides of this House to J!et this province p,oinr; a~>,ain, to p,et this mill poinp, again, to try and make it a viable operation so that '"e can <'lttract someone hopefully in a couole of years time to take it off our hancls and we can ret out of the business.

Mr. Speaker, I compliment my friend, the Minister of Finance, not only for his work but for the courape that he showed over the past four years in trying to prevent finding himself today in a position where he has on his hands the most onerous job that any ~1inister of the Crown in this province has ever faced. nut let me say, Mr. Speaker, in closing 1that the people of 917

May 5. 1972 Tape 321 (Horning) 1M- 3 'ffi.. HTCKMAN: Newfoundland should be eternallv !!'rateful, eternally grateful that thev ~'ound themselves ,;ri th a lo.fini s ter of Finance and Economic Develooment today that has the canaci tv tn carrv this through, and this he will do. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MP.. HARVF.V : 1 will huv th;ot. M'r. Speaker. I do not have the knm1ledpe nor the information on what trans pi red concerninP this hill over the nast t1.ro or three years so I ~·dll refrain from gettinr involved in it.

But I sneak on the bill because of t he benefits that nay be derived from the buildin~ of the mill for wy area of Labrador South. Mr. Sneaker. I first congratulate the f.overnment of Newfoundlanc:l and Labrador for oresentin? this bill no. 55 to the House and in sn doinp. will nossiblv save this mill from failure after so many millions of our dollaTs have been soent on the oroj ect. T would certainly agree. Mr.

Speaker. with manY of my other colleagues in this honourable Pause that any r~vernment of Newfoundland and Labrador will never again have the n01,rer to snenr. money as thev had lvithout fi1'"st coming to this House of Assemblv for aonroval. I lvoulrl like to com>:ratulate the honourable ~<inister of Finance for his most in~'ormative speech on what has transnired since the startin~ of this paper mill at <;tephenville and to thank my collea?ue . the member for Hhite Bay South for his superb speech on the same subiect. Mr.

Sr>eaker. the building of the linerboard mill on the ~•es t coast of our province could brin~ instant prosperity to two senarate sections of the area I represent. The honourable Minister of Finance has already stated in this House that the Melville area of Labrador cannot supplv enou~h timber to keep this mill in operation and conseauently the lumber or the timber will have to come from the island

section of our nrovince. I do not begrudge any timber cominr, 918

May 5, 1972 Tane 321 (Mornin~) JJ-! - 4 MR. HARVEY: ·- . ~ -- -- .... from the island

section going into the Stephenville Mill. I know my friend and colleague on the other side of the House,l'rom Green Rav, the honourahle member for Green ~ay is also interested in somethin~ of that nature hut 1 do sav that we deserve, the Labrador South Coast deserves .1 cut of the pie. 919

May 5, 1972 Mr. Harvey Tape no. 322 Page 1 - MR\v I already stated in my reply to the Speech from the Throne and in fact pleaded to this House that everv consideration was to be given to the possibility of using some of the vast timber stands in Labrador South. Now that the fact has been revealed that the Melville area cannot supply the 490,000 cords of wood needed, I would certainly hope that negotiations will start immediately with the Sandwich Bay Co-operative of Cartwright and with interested parties at Port Hope Simpson on operating a woods operation in these areas. The people of Port Hope Simpson, Mr.

Speaker, have already had experience in the operation of a woods operation. They are well•-trained in that field due to the fact that Bowaters had an operation there for many years but unfortunately it pulled out of that area in the late 1960's. Speaking on the Port Hope Simpson operation, Bowaters did also build a wharf ·there, a suitable wharf for the transportation of wood from that area into Stephenville. So the docking of ships would be no obstacle in shipping wood from Port Hope Simpson to Stephenville.

The benefits above and beyond the income that people would receive in giving them a new economic base, other than the fishery, would go beyond the ordinary pay cheque. I would assume with an operation starting in Port Hope Simpson, you would have the benefit of at least the starting of an operation of this size in Port Hope Simpson. I would certainly hope that public services would indeed follow. I speak particularly of a nursing station, water and sewerage, roads and so on and so forth. I would add, Mr.

Speaker, that if an operation in Port Hope Simpson had started or will start by the building of this mill then it is not impossible that the wood cut for that mill could run down the coastline towards Mary's Harbour and in turn build a road connection with that other community which is so desperately needed. The Sandwich Bay Co-operative was set up last year, Mr. Speaker, on a grant supplied by the government. The co-operative is run and managed by a reliable group of interested citizens of Cartwright. They already have started a small operation there and cut some wood. I think it · is already 920

May 5, 1972 Mz:. Harvey. Tape no. 322 Page 2 stock-piled on the shoreline of Sandwich Bay. They have two DC-7 tractors that has been laid up in Cartwright this past year anyway. They have been used in the operation and can be used in any further operations in the Sandwich Bay area. These tractors were leased or given (I am not quite sure) by the government to the Sandwick Bay Co-operative in 1970. Like the Port Hope Simpson area, Mr. Speaker, the Cartwright area could benefit immensely from such an operation. Ships operating from Stephenville I might add Hr.

Speaker, could. in eoing into the Port Rope Simpson area or the Sandwich Bay area, cut off their steaming time by about 150 miles savinr . the trip down into Lake Helville, down in the Goose Bay area. I am not sayinr. that we should not take wood out of Lake Melville either and Goose Bay. I do not think my hon. colleague from Labrador North would agree with that. I certainly hope that we could get in on some of the cake as I said before. There is a 308 mile difference in steaming time from the area I reprtlsent, Cartwright, Port Hope Simpson than it would be for ships going into Goose Bay and returning.

Therefore, that could be something to consider when there is a setting up (if the government so desire) of an operation in the Cartwright, Port Hope Simpson area. Mr. Speaker, I once again plead like I did in this honourable House and to our government, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, that everything possible ~1ill be done for the starting of these opera<:ions. It could benefit an area that for so long has had to suffer because of the lack of any economic base other than the fishery. It would also help the people of Port Hope Simpson and Cartwright in other ways.

As I stated before in this House, Port Hope Simpson is a community that exists only in the wintertime to some extent. Then it becomes three, four, five other fishing villages. Cartwright is the same thing. It is a winter communit)T that becomes - Packs Harbour, Spotted Islands, Batteau and places like that - in the summertime. A viable woods operation in either of these areas would 921

:-lay 5, 1972 L1r. Harvey Tape no. 322 probably stop this sort of nomadic - Hr. Speaker, AN HON. HEM!JER: (Inaudible) Page 3 !1R. HARVEY: Mr. Speaker, in closing like I said.! know nothing c·f the b llL I only came in poli '.ics four or five months ago I had a short stay in the last session and probnbly not much longer in this, according to reports. In closing, Hr. Speaker, I wish the government every success in putting this mill into a successful operation. I would like to congratulate them again on brine:ng this bill to the House. MR. F. R. STAGG: Mr.

Speaker, as the member for the district in which this project, (the various pro;ects as some people call it\ is located , I would like tL> begin my address by telling you people a little about Stephenville. There is more there than a linerboard mill. It is a town the economv of which \Y'as based upon Ernest Harmon Air Force Base. It came there in the early 1940's. It lasted until 1966. In 1966 Ernest Harmon Air "'orce Base completely closed in June of that year.

The easy life that many of our people had experienced for many years ,because living in an area where an air force base i.s located, you get many benefits than otherwise accrue to people. You get rr.any things duty free. You get many things cheaply, which is not always quite legal now but many of these things do happen. The easy life became very hard in Stephenville in 1966. In August, 1966, the government came in -when I say the government, I mean the government. The cabinet assembled in St. Stephen's Gymnasium in Stephenville, tt1e first time it ever assembled outside of St. John's.

It was in August, 1966, early August, 1966. There was more pie in the sky that night thaq has ever been anywhere before or since. There were some fourteen industries promulgated, some of which have come and gone and very few of which have come and stayed. There \vas an election shortly after this meeting in Stephenville, August, 1966 and a Liberal member was swept in there, just as Liberal members were 922

May 5' 1972 Tape no. 322 Page 4 Mr. Stagg swept in all over the province. In 1967, Stephenville calmly began to come back largely Lased on tJ,e Adult Centre at Stephenville. The Adt~lt Centre, for those of you who may not be aware of it, is an institution set up under Canada Hanpower, basically federal funds in it, where people, adults, upgrade themselves, upgrade their education. 923

}{ay 5, 1972 Tape323 (morninp.) PK - 1 l"TR. STAGG: There have beer. sometimes upwards of 1,000 students attendinp. the school and they of course are paid a reasonahle amount of money by ~overnment. This brought a great deal of money :;_nto thP tohrn and ,,•hi 1 e it ~oras not r"od times for all. it nevertheless took some of the sting out of the •·.remen <1ous set back He have had since June 1966. Lir;hts began to go on all over the town again. Several smaller industries t·•ere opened. Some closed, others Pith varying degrees of success.

Our airport >vhich is second to none in Fastern Canada,Hith a 12,000 foot runa1-rav ,this ~-ras a mains~ay of our economy. It still is. The ~ 'inister of Transport as he ls no1-1 l<no'l>m or as it ls nmv knot<~ the llinistery of Transport paid very good money.The people who are employed with the ~inistery of Transport and Air Canada coptrihute a p.reat deal to our town in more t·Tays than just monetarily. In 1070, early in 1970, the line,:board mill hegan. It actually began in early October 1969.Most of us remember what was going on in early October 1969.The ground was cleared in early October 1969.

This '~>•as shortly before tt-le Liberal Leadership Convention. Great clouds of smoke came from the area where the mill is now located. It was thought that thts t·Jas .i ust a politi.cal gam hit, ve have found out since that time, of course, it 1-1as not. This 1-~as _iust a legitimate clearing of land, which incidentally happened on the 1st. of October 1969. The mill is our greatest adventure and the mill promises to bring ~reat prosnerity to Stephenville, even if it may bring something less than prosperity to the rest of the Island. Buildings 360 and 361 were mentioned here.

They have been the subject of a rather reprehensible transaction. They are really showpieces, these tt-'O buildings. There are very fev' other buildirgs like the"' any-.;,rhere in Net·rfoundland. They are dormitory facilities only, hov,ever • It is very difficult to adapt them to anything else. They can house about 800 people comfortably two people to a room. They are there, they nCJA ., f.. ~.l

Hay 5, 1972 Tape 323 (morning) PK - 2 MR. ~T~C-.G__:_ are available for nothinJ:! or for $10(1,nno. not $650,000, Our to~~ has suffered from lack of hotel and motel facilities. Javelin said that these tt,ro large ~;tructures t,.ould he hotels, or at least one of them would be a hotel. This :f_s a very deciding factor in people, local people and also people from the ontside area refusin~ to put hotel/motel facilities in our tmm, It has heen a real dra•,.hack.

The reacquisition of these two huildinp:s will precipitate a decision (and I look strairht at his hack here)a community collez.··· or collep:es for the 1~e'>t Coast (said with tongue in cheek) to a certair extent. }lr. Speaker, we do not want to be international outlaws. Can you imagine our credibility in the economic development field :If we 'lorere to drive this company under, if we were vindicative enough to drive them under because they had not exactly played cricket tvith us. Canadian Javelin will be able to survive or at least it t•rill have a much greater chance of survival. The nroject H:l.ll survive.

The government I am sure t·lill s1.rvive and honourahle meMhers of the oppositi n Pill survive as t,rell. It is a settlement from t·rhich both sides emerp:e t-r:fth honour. tie more honourably than they, I t-Tould say. The agree111ent itself says that there is p,oirw to he S2 •. 5 million now and $2.5 million contin~ent upon deductions for unauthori?.ed advances. !~ell some of these have already heen !!One into. I would feel that tJe "torill not pay the full $5 million. T think that this is honourable. Any su~gestion of sellout is hypocrisy.

The past three and a-half months and it has only been three and a-half months since, if my arithmetic is correct, th:l.s J:!Overnment took office and in the great scheme of things three and a-half months is not a very long time. The nast three and a-half months have been hoth exhilarating and taxing for me personally. ~1r. Speaker, I remember when you and I were in 0tta~7a learning certain academic things about procedures in the House, '"e arrived 925

"ay 5 . 1 q 72 '~'a?e 323 (mot:nin~) PK - 3 ~~· _STAGG: Frid ay and 1 had t o rush hack he re on ~aturday . First l hRd to rush l:>ack hecause the T"ill project ~o•as bccom:!nr. a ver v volatile issue. t..'hi.le I was in ~ t . .John's learnin~ as much as I could :1hout thf. pro cct .loh:-~ Dov• c t.ras .i.n <; teohe nv i lie attendinr. a mas.!: nuhlic meetinr eKPlainin~ Javelin >sidc. This mass nuhlic ~ee t i n p consisted of fourteen peonle , Fort unately. he was not able t o ~e nerate ~reat nuhlic suorort in ~teo h envi lle .

There ~-ras a t ime . a brief time ~vhen I feared fo r mv familv. because somettm~s t he reports that come hack those thin~s P.ive you cause ~f' • fear. but it Nas very h rie fly. In these three and a-half months I have learned more. r thin ~ 1 have :eRrnPd more a bout this nro;ect than the honourable memhcrs opnosite did for t he last four years. ~1 aybc the v are not so b ril liant as we have been led to believe . Mr. Speaker, this nroject and others like it ooint ou t the need fo r very c ornnrehensive nlanninJ! and our 'PreJ">·er ha« made a noint of t .his in virtually everv stteech he has made.

The honoura hlP nemher for Placentia Hest in his ";·~· ~ch in reply t:o the Address from t he Throne talked about o:! 1 cone.:. -;" ·ons and the indiRc rimi: tto te ~~o•ay in ~·h ic:h they uere handed out . This type of nonsense will end . The neople of Port au Port did not thin k that mjll 11-~uld operate. 1-:o~• I have lived there for, well virtually all of my life. hut T have lived there durin~ the life of this mill 9(..6

'May 5, 1972. Tape 324. Page I. The people of Port au Port did not think it ~vould operate~ there were men lvorking down there, ~vorking overtime,vitally involved in it, they never thought it ~rould operate. That feeling is nmv gone. Thev do feel it Hill operate. Tm.1ards Hardt 24, it 1vas hard to sunplv them 1dth "noH ' buttons ,They "ere at: a premium. This p:overnment are< real:y the only nlternative. The only government, the only partv whic:h had the personnel that can handle that project. Mr. Sf'eaker, I think the people of Port au Port have aquittecl themselves ,,.; th honour as ~·ell.

They did not waiver in the face of nossible disaster, They r.esnected the c--_binet committee, esnecially the Honourable Minister of Finance whom they stood by (]uite valiantly in 1%9. He certainly has heen naid anv debt he may have had to the reonle nf mv district. I am p,ojn~ to digress a little bit now and try to plug Port an Port a little more. Port au Port is p,oinp. to he a very prosf'erous place, J nlan to stay there ancl become nrosnerous with it. I have t~~o netitions under my clesk here, that I have yet to present, I do not lmovr if I am p,oinp.; to p,et the chance to nresent them.

One is for the ex · ension of CTV facilities to Bay St. Ceorp,e, the other is for the prn'Tision of the boat shelter for Long Point. Both of these are verv tonica! within the district. You can imagine how topical CTV is this year w:!.th the National Hockey League playoffs. We do not get CTV in Port au Port. '-le will be. we are and lvill 'be one of the most productive areas in this Province. for that.

There are various reasons Honourable members, students of political science, seasoned politicians, young naive backbenchers, lve all must realize that resiRTiation from government on matters of principle, :l.s a -: integral oart of politics as is participation in government. The honourable members opposite have acted as apologists for themselves, but they 927

May S, 1972. Tane 324 Page 2. do not satisfy me that they loved NeHfoundland more than nower. J also find it very :'1trange that the Honourah 1 e Leader of the O!'>JORition stooc! on Rtage i.n <;tep~.en•Jille. early in "~arch, ldth mv onponent and Mr. Clvde Wells, heard r:w onoonent pntise Mr, I'oyle and did not set him right. Surely, all the revelations on Mr. Doyle have not come to light since that time. There was an abuse placed tvith the P,overnment in the 1967 '~elville Act.

This and other abuses nrecipitated the three honourable mernLt?.rs,who are sittin~ on this side noH ,having crossed t'ce f'oor to that side then. Mr. Sneaker, litigation can he a matter of great delav. I am not narticularlv stee!'ed i.n the tracljti.ons of the lm•7 having onlv nractise for two vears. This mav he considerablv more than some of the 0ther- some of the members nractised just the same. Ljtigation can he a matter ::1f l!reat delay. This pro;ect must Rtart in nctoher or soon there about as nossihle. l{e Pere not goinr: to get a default judgement a!r.ainst Javelin.From mv as,4Pc1ation tvith Mr.

Golol'lh and Mr. Diamond ~1ho are their .1 at·JYers or Fho "1-mnld be instructing their Netvfoundland lawvers, they could keen ns in court for ouite some time. Mr. C'-olomb, to say the least intimidated me, quite a char.'lcter but a capable lawyer. Hr. Speaker, this Bill nronosed to ratify an ap:reement. There is no tvav Canadian Javelin would accent a settlf'.ment whereby thev t~ould get nothinr. It is an a~reement, both parties a?ree. So, with those few words I would like to close but I want to re-emphasize that this is an agreement which we are bei.n~ asked to ratify.

Nothing else would hrinp: this project to a satisfactorY conclusion quicker. I would like to now pay special tribute to the Honourable ~inister of Finance who has laboured long and hard throughout the past three and a half months, indeed he has laboured long and hard for the nast three or four years, he has pr~bably been labourinp: long and hard his whole life. The people of Port au Port will not forget him .As long as he is part of this government I am sure that we will be on a verv reasonable footing economically. Thank you. 928 :"'~

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 325 NC - 1 MR. EARLE (H.R.V.): Mr. Speaker, I am rising to support this legislation, this bill. I would first of all like to offer my most sincere congratulations to the Minister of Finance who did such a magnificent job in moving this bill,second reading. I think the hon. gentleman, if he had lived in the middle ages when they had the habit of christening people by their characteristics and abilities would have been known as ''John the Digger~' He certainly dug extremely deep, extremely well and he has brought up facts which this province and the people of this province are entitled to know.

I do not think that the members of the former government who sit on the opposite side will be able to rest secure until"John the Digger" digs his own grave and I hope that never happens. But this is one of many things which need to be told and revealed to the people of Newfoundland and this is just an opening salvo of the sort of thing which transpired over the past twenty-three years which. has placed this province in the predicament it is in today. Now, Mr. Speaker, at the outset, the hon. the' member for White Bay South did quite a job in laying the responsibility for all this on various shoulders and,Mr.

Speaker, I have no hesitation whatsoever in accepting my share of that responsibility for the period in which I was with the Liberal Regime. I must clarify that though by saying that at the outset when this project was started, it was in such a confused state that I doubt that even the lawyers of the government at that time understood just what was going on. This was the ultimate in promotion by unscrupulous people and it was aided and abetted by one person in the Liberal Government.

It was complete misunderstanding on the part of many members of the cabinet and,as a matter of fact, they were not brought into the picture and those who have since sat with the Liberal cabinet know how that cabinet operates. But, Mr. Speaker, that does not excuse what happened since 929

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 325 NC - 2 MR. EARLE: November 1969. Then it became patently obvious that the whole deal was on the wrong tracks and that it was going to cost this province a fabulous sum of money. The thing had started to escalate beyond all dreams and anyone that was with the Liberal Government at that time and was cognizant of the facts,must bear full responsibility for not calling halt. Now 1 de sincerely congratulate the Leader of the Opposition and the member for White Bay South for the efforts which they made, and which I read abou~which tried to bring a halt to this.

All I will say to these gentlemen; that in the words of another famous man, "it was too little and too late, much too little and much too late. " They had the opportunity, the golden opportunity at that time to bring a rapid halt to this pro.1ect, to bring a rapid halt to the manoeuverings of the Liberal Government because the thing,as we all remember, was on such a thin edge at that time, that had they been men enough to stand on their feet, it would have collapsed and this thing would have been settled without all the troubles and difficulties that have transpired since then.

However that is history, there is not much point in placing the blame, but there are a few things which I must clear, Mr. Speaker. It was said, I think by the hon. the member for White Bay South, that in the resignations of the hon. Minister of Justice at that time and myself, which then actually transpired and took place within days of each other, there was no reference whatever to any disagreement with the Javelin project. That may be strictly true.

I do not know what the Minister of Justice at that time said in his resignation, but I do know what I said in mine and 1 do well remember the conversations that I had with the Premier of that day,at that very difficult and trying time. I put it quite plainly in my resignation and to the Premier in further conversations that the reason I supported the Minister of 930

May 5, 1972 Tape No. 325 NC - 3 ~ffi~EARLE: Justice in that Liberal Convention, that notorious Liberal Convention, was that I disagreed as Finance Minister, which I ~as at the time, with his financial policies. Now part of these financial policies was this Javelin deal. It was only one part of many. The member for l.Jhi te Bay South said that it took great courage to remain "~>lith ~overnment. I agree with him. Nobody could agree more.

I was with the Liberal Government for eight and a half years and that took tremendous courage because I had to go to bed v!ith myself on many occasions, wondering beyond all reason if I were doin~ the right thing, questioning myself inside out. The torment practically nndermined my health at the time. t reached the stage where I could not sleep, I could not eat, I could not enjoy life generally. But it 1.ras a continuous turmoil and I know that the members who sat on the Liberal Government realize what a turmoil this was because of the manoeuverings and the things which were going on.

One who was constantly called upon to turn to his conscience and say, "just how far can you r,o lvi th this ? " I hope that God and the people of Newfoundland will forgivP me for many of the things to which I agreed under the screen of cabinet solidarity and loyalty to the Premier of the day.