Manitoba Hansard — 14 May 2004 (Sitting 38C, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-38c

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 38C - 10 a.m., Friday, May 14, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

2179 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 14, 2004 The House met at 10 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTHY CHILD MANITOBA Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be considering the Estimates of Healthy Child Manitoba. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister responsible for Healthy Child Manitoba): Yes, I do, Mr. Chairperson. Healthy Child Manitoba is a wonderful proactive health program. It deals with keeping children and families healthy, and it is a wonderful program. It starts with a number of very progressive, positive programs in making mothers and families stronger. I will explain some of them. The first one is the BabyFirst program which is basically working with young families.

It is getting home visitors, it is talking about the importance of breast-feeding, it is talking about the importance of activity, nutrition, building families. So the BabyFirst, Early Start programs basically have about 1300 homes being visited by home visitors. It is a very proactive approach. We also have the early childhood supplement which gives up to $82 for young families or mothers to help financially to ensure that they have appropriate nutrition and food supplements, and they can have a few dollars to be proactive as far as food nutrition and being able to afford the baby that is soon to come.

It also has programs such as the EDI, the early development instrument, which focusses on when kids enter the school system, around Christmastime they are evaluated. It is a very important evaluation tool because what happens is instead of evaluating kids after the fact, what th ey do is they sit there and they analyze the skills and abilities of the child at Christmastime. By doing that they find out what skills are deficient.

Then they can work within the community, within community groups, within parent-child coalitions, day cares and with parents themselves, so that they can work to ensure that kids have the appropriate skills at an early age. As we know, through Fraser Mustard and the work of others in the early development instrument community, if you can change outcomes, the most important change, the biggest change you can have is when the kids are young. So what you want to do is you want to make sure that the kids have an appropriate start and what you will then have is you will have long term better health outcomes.

So things like the EDI, they measure skills, abilities, what the kids are able to do. That really strengthens your society because what you do is, say, if you find out that kids do not have the appropriate literacy skills or social interaction skills, you can take a proactive approach and work to develop skills, programs, work with parents to make sure that the kids have those skills. There are a number of other programs such as Turnabout, Teen Talk, that are very proactive about kids, getting them to learn about their behaviour.

There is the STOP FAS program which is really good because it not only has the peer program, it also has a lot of education programs out in the community, posters, information and working with multiple providers to STOP FAS. It also provides money to the FAS support group, parent support group. There is "Nobody Is Perfect." There is Mary Gordon's program, Roots of Empathy, that is supported through this program, which is teaching kids the importance of empathy. It has talked about the importance of breastfeeding again.

It is talking about how important it is to love others, support others and understand the true words of empathy. That program is delivered at Grade 1 and Grade 5. What happens there is kids learn the importance of non-racism, non-hate. It learns how to support and work with others. It is a very, very good program.

2180 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 The basic premise is that what you want to do is you want to support families early. You want to be proactive. You want to make sure that kids have the support they need to be successful in society in the long term. The Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet is unique. What it is, we have ministers across the Government that basically work together to support each other, to make sure that the kids have the healthy start that they need. I am pleased to chair that committee. We meet regularly.

On behalf of Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet, I think it is a wonderful statement about what our province is all about. Every province has treasury boards which talk about costs, departmental, financial issues. We have a cross- departmental child issue committee and that is important. Manitoba values and supports our children for who they are today and throughout their whole development into adulthood. Research has shown that children who grow up in safe, healthy, nurturing environments have a better chance to reach their fullest potential.

A child's earliest years build upon the foundation for success in the school years, in optimal health, in well-being for the children's years from then and forever. We work across departmentals through sectors to facilitate community development approach for the well-being of Manitoba's children, families, communities. We really focus on infancy and the pre-school years, and we even work with mothers and families before the baby is born. Since April 2000, Manitoba has increased investments for early childhood development by over $58 million in that time period.

Of this investment, in 2000, 2004, 2005, $18.5 million was provided by the federal government through the Early Childhood Development Agreement. So Manitoba spends by far the majority of the money in this area. Manitoba is led by the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet. I chair that committee. The other departments that are involved are Aboriginal and Northern Affairs; Culture, Heritage and Tourism; Education, Citizenship and Youth; Family Services and Housing; Health; Justice; and the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. Allan).

It has been wonderful to work with this group of people who are committed to the children of our province. Some of the major programs that are offered in this department are the Parent Child coalitions, BabyFirst and Early Start home visitors program, Healthy Baby Prenatal Benefit and the Community Support Programs, the Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder Prevention Program and Support Programs, Health Adolescent Development Program and many, many others. We also provide a lot of grants to external agencies that do good work in the community.

In 2004-2005, despite the fiscal challenges, Healthy Child Manitoba will receive an overall increase of about 3 percent to further support these commitments. This increase demonstrates our Government's commitment to healthy children and families and the community. The funding we have allocated has enabled us to provide an additional $1.3 million to expand two programs that provide important supports to the parents of young children. The additional funding will expand the BabyFirst and Early Start programs which are both home-visiting programs and provide a wide range of supports to eligible families.

BabyFirst provides a three-year home visiting mentoring program for newborns and their families based on initial universal screening with services being offered to families identified with significant risk factors. The program is delivered through our regional health authorities. This year's funding will expand the service by approximately 200 additional families. I was pleased to make that announcement at Heritage Community Centre with Jan Sanderson and other people just about a week and a half ago. It was a wonderful welcome program. People think that it is money well spent and well invested.

In 2004-2005, we have allocated approximately $1.8 million to programs to enhance children's readiness to learn prior to the school entry. Early Start provides a three-year home visiting program for families with children who have special social needs and are currently attending licensed childcare. Expanding on last year's pilot of an integrated model of BabyFirst and Early Start, an additional $400,000 has been allocated to expand the successful implication of the initial three regions in employment program delivery to two additional regions. * (10:10)

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2181 We are committed to ensuring that all children arrive at kindergarten ready to enjoy the benefit from school experience. In 2004-2005, funding of $50,000 has been committed to expand Healthy Child Manitoba's provincial research and evaluation strategy to include the use of early development instrument or EDI. The EDI measures how ready your children are for the challenges of school learning. The outcomes from the EDI will provide a measure of success for our early years programming and an evidence base for future years.

It is also important to note that the EDI instrument has moved to almost 70 percent as far as voluntary uptake and that is wonderful because schools, school divisions have realized the importance of early in tervention and early understanding of where the kids are. This is a true form of testing and what is neat about it is that the voluntary uptake of this program has increased continually and it is now approximately 70 percent in a voluntary fashion. So it is nice to see the school divisions understand the true importance of this wonderful tool. In 2004-2005 we have allocated $94,000 for the Turnabout program.

Canada's only province-wide pilot project for children under 12 who come into contact with laws being made with this permanent provincial support. Turnabout standardizes the way police, workers in Justice, child welfare and school systems in the community deal with young people too young to be charged for acts that may otherwise be prosecuted under federal criminal code. It is to try to get kids out of the cycle of criminal activity before they become entrenched in those behaviours. It is a good program working with Justice and other departments.

Within the 2004-2005 our Government is pleased to be able to maintain support for innovative successful programming such as Healthy Baby, parent-child approaches, and the parent-child coalitions. Over $5 million has been committed to the Healthy Baby program through the provision of a monthly financial benefit for low-income pregnant women and a network of Healthy Child Committee Community Support Programs.

Participating women increase their awareness of health and parenting choices, increase their sense of community, increase their sense of support, and it is really wonderful to see the activities of these programs. I have had the pleasure of attending a number of them and it is great to see the strength in community. The parent-child approach brings resources together through community coalitions across the province which support parenting, improve children's nutrition and literacy, and build community capacity for helping families in their own community.

The Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet and Healthy Child program signal a new way of working together by the commitment to concrete action for early development. Building on the existing foundations and developing new initiatives was the priority focus in the early years. The partner departments of Healthy Child Manitoba continue to promote the best possible outcomes for all Manitobans' children. That means physical and emotional help, safety and security, successful at learning and being socially engaged and responsible.

The early years of childhood set the stage for a child's physical, emotional, social, spiritual and intellectual development. I am pleased that our Government has recogniz ed the early childhood development as a priority today, so that we can build healthier and vibrant communities for tomorrow. Our Government's commitment to supporting families and communities is demonstrated by the significant funding we have provided in this area and the steady increase in funding throughout our mandate.

I look forward to this committee's review of the 2004-2005 Estimates of Expenditures for Healthy Child Manitoba and welcome the comments of all committee members. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Charleswood, have any opening comments? The floor is yours. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Chairperson, I do not have an opening statement, just a question regarding process. I am assuming that we will, as in past practice, spend some time on a global discussion prior to getting into line by line. Mr.

Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to have a global discussion or go line by line?

2182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 Mrs. Driedger: A global discussion, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Rondeau: That is acceptable, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: All right, it is agreed upon to have a global discussion. The floor is now open for questions. But we will firs t invite the staff forward and we will ask the minister to introduce the staff. Mr. Rondeau: I am very pleased to introduce Jan Sanderson, who is the Executive Director of the Healthy Child Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson: All right. The floor is open for questions. Mrs.

Driedger: I would just like to welcome Jan Sanderson to the table and welcome the minister, too, to the first set of Estimates for Healthy Child for him. I guess we will get right into questions then. I would like to ask the minister how often the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet meets. Mr. Rondeau: We meet every second month. Mrs. Driedger: How long do the meetings go? Mr. Rondeau: They vary greatly in size because we have strategic planning sessions that are longer.

Our normal meeting would be about two hours, but they vary greatly in length because you will have a strategic planning session that might take a lot longer than that. Mrs. Driedger: Does the Minister of Healthy Living actually chair that meeting himself? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, I do. Mrs. Driedger: I note that there is also a separate

section of Healthy Child deputy ministers. Do they meet along with Healthy Child Committee of abinet? C Mr. Rondeau: They meet on a regular basis, but they also meet together with us at times. It is a combination of both. In a strategic planning session, of course, they would be there with the deputies. They also have their own regular meetings though. Mrs. Driedger: The Estimates show that there are 22 FTEs, and I would like to ask the minister if this is the full staff complement of Healthy Child. Mr.

Rondeau: It is the staff complement, however at times we will have contract positions for research projects or specific contracts for short-term contracts that we allot. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister give any ballpark in terms of how many separate contractors would be hired throughout a year? Mr. Rondeau: We would have, it depends on the year, approximately half a dozen people. But, say if there is a special research project or if we are working on specific initiatives, that number may go up. If we are not working on it, it goes down.

But it is approximately half a dozen people on short-term contracts, so it depends. Th ere are deliverables that are established and specific things that people do. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate how many people would be on contract right now and in what particular roles? Mr. Rondeau: Before I do that, I would like to introduce Debra Woodgate, who is the Deputy Minister of Family Services and Housing. She also chairs the deputy ministers' committee for the Healthy Child Initiative, and she reports to me in that capacity. I am sorry, can you repe at the other question. * (10:20) Mrs.

Driedger: I was asking the minister how many people he would be contracting with right now, in what particular areas, how long those contracts might be, and if there is a possible price tag attached to each of those. Mr. Rondeau: We can provide that later to you in writing, or we can figure it now which would take a while. So why do we not just provide that in writing to you early next week, or today if we can. Mrs. Driedger: That would be acceptable. Certainly, at the beginning of the week would be fine.

I note that there is one vacancy showing on the office org chart, and I would like to ask the minister if that position is actually vacant right now. Mr. Rondeau: The position is currently vacant, but the WRHA is currently providing support for that role.

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2183 Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister just put a little bit more detail around that. It is a vacant position in BabyFirst for a program and policy consultant. Would the WRHA have a person then that is doing that job and would the WRHA be covering that cost through their own budget? Mr. Rondeau: The BabyFirst is delivered through the WRHA and the WRHA is currently getting a grant to support the administration of this. I understand that that person is now working with the Healthy Child department. Mrs.

Driedger: The minister indicated there was a person involved through the WRHA working on that. Would he have a name for that person? Mr. Rondeau: The name of the person responsible for that program through the WRHA is Darlene Girard. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister just clarify whether that person then is being paid out of the WRHA budget? Mr. Rondeau: In the previous year the WRHA did not expend their entire money for the BabyFirst program and they are using those funds to cover that position. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate then why it is showing as a vacant position on his office org chart? Mr.

Rondeau: The staff year is still in that department, and so we did not want to eliminate the staff year. Their function is still being done by the WRHA. The program is still being co-ordinated and administered through the regions and in the org chart it notes that the position is right now vacant but full- time, the FT is still in the org chart should it go back to the department. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate when he expects that position to go back to the department as he has indicated it possibly might? Mr. Rondeau: We have this arrangement that is working well with the existing staff for this year.

We expect to look at it within the year to see whether this program will be in the Healthy Child department or whether it will remain as is with the WRHA. Mrs. Driedger: So can the minister just confirm then, is it the WRHA then that is covering that person's salary? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, it is currently through money that was supplied through Healthy Child Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, because there are a number of pr ograms, Healthy Baby, the BabyFirst, Early Start, FAS, how many of those programs or positions here within his office org chart are also funded by the WRHA? Mr.

Rondeau: All the other programs are funded through the Healthy Child Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister confirm that all of the positions then on his office org chart, basically the rest of the 22 FTEs, those are all funded then by Healthy Child? Mr. Rondeau: Yes they are. Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): I am just trying to understand this a little more clearly. The salary dollars then fo r the program and policy consultant for BabyFirst are not in the salary line then of Healthy Child Manitoba? Mr. Rondeau: What happens is we pay the salary to WRHA.

The salary is budgeted within Healthy Child Manitoba and the WRHA is filling that administrative role through Darlene Girard. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks, Mr. Chair, but I thought I heard the minister say a little earlier–and I guess we will have to wait for Hansard to come out–that the salary dollars for Darlene Girard were being paid out of the funding for the BabyFirst program, the funding that was allocated to BabyFirst. So, then, I think we have heard two different explanations from the minister. Mr. Rondeau: As I said, the funding is provided through the Healthy Child department.

The funding is provided through BabyFirst. There is a separate agreement under the BabyFirst program to fund the salary with WRHA to deliver the service. The dollars are provided in the Health y Child budget. They are under the BabyFirst program. Darlene Girard has administered the BabyFirst program since its inception. There has been no change here.

2184 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 It is like a secondment from the WRHA where the funding from the dolla rs, the funding dollars come from the salary component of the Budget and are flowed to the WRHA to administer this program. It is all located within the BabyFirst and the Healthy Child budget. Mrs. Mitchelson: Okay, I guess, then, that leads to the question on why that position for BabyFirst is shown vacant on the org chart? * (10:30) Mr. Rondeau: Because she is not a civil servant working directly for the Provin ce.

It is sort of like a secondment-type arrangem ent where she continues her employment as per before this program with the WRHA. She has been administering the program since its inception and she does an admirable job. The difference would be that she was previously an employee of the WRHA, and it is more like a secondment arrangement. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks, Mr. Chair, but if she was previously an employee of the WRHA, what is she now? Mr. Rondeau: Previous to this, she has always been an employee of the WRHA. She wanted to continue that arrangement. She does an excellent job, so this facilitates that process.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Okay, thanks, Mr. Chair. Has the vacancy management directive that has been given by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) impacted in any way on the Healthy Child office? Mr. Rondeau: There are no vacancies in the branch. The branch is staffed, it is staffed as it has been previously. Like I said in earlier questions, Darlene Girard has had the management of this program since its inception. She has stayed in the WRHA. No employment positions have changed. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairman, I will just comment then.

I mean if there is a person doing the job in a position, whether it is in the WRHA and we are paying the salary dollars, I am not sure that this org chart is truly reflective of the situation in Healthy Child. So maybe the minister can try to explain that to me. There is actually a person doing the job. I know that we had some discussion around the org chart in the Department of Health. People that were seconded from the regional health authority working in the Department of Health were shown as contract salaries in their Estimates. So why the difference here? Mr.

Rondeau: We did not show it because the person is not a direct civil servant. I guess we could show it in the future. The position, as we identified, is being contracted out to the WRHA. What we have shown here is the civil servants who are working directly for the department in the Healthy Child department. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chair, I would hope that the minister might recommend then the org chart truly reflect next year what the situation is.

I do not see, and maybe the minister can find for me, he indicated there were several people on contracts for different projects and I do not see in the Estimates any place where there are contract dollars. Mr. Rondeau: They are through program funds or financial assistance lines, so if a person was working on a specific project, it would be part of that specific project that the person has got the contract for or is doing the research for. Mrs. Driedger: The minister said that there was basically no vacancy manage ment policy within the department.

Is there any intent to reduce any of the jobs in the department because of the commitment to decrease the civil service by 400 people? Mr. Rondeau: We followed the vacancy management process of the Government, but when vacancies come up, they are evaluated to see whether they fit within the program. There is not vacancy management initiative because people have remained in their jobs. I believe they do that because they are happy with their jobs, they see the progress of this important department and their valued by this Government in their important work.

So, there has not been a lot of movement in this department. People are staying in their jobs, and I hope that they are happy and continue to do great work. Mrs. Driedger: So can the minister confirm, then, that there will be no vacancies established in his department because of the Government's commit- ment to decrease the civil service by 400?

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2185 Mr. Rondeau: I cannot confirm that anyone will leave their job or stay in their job. This is something that people stay in their jobs because they are happy in their jobs. I cannot predict whether people are going to leave their posit ions. If they do not leave their positions, we are not about to force a person to leave their position. They are doing a good job, we are supportive.

I think it is very nice to say that we have 22 people who are doing good work, they are pleased with their jobs, they are happy with their jobs, and the Government is supporting their good work that they do on behalf of kids and families, and young people in our province. Mrs. Mitchelson: So, with that answer, is the minister indicating, and I think he said there were 22 employees, it looks like on the org chart there are 26, but there are actually 26 in dividuals that are working in the Healthy Child office. Maybe the minister could explain what the vacancy management policy is, then, what it means?

I mean, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) indicat ed clearly that by the end of this fiscal year there would be 400 less positions in the civil service as a result of decreasing the number of FTEs, I would believe. So what is the minister telling us? Is he telling us that the Healthy Child office will not be impacted in any way by the announcement that the Minister of Finance made in his Budget? * (10:40) Mr. Rondeau: What we will be doing is, the Government examines all vacancies to see whether we can hold it vacant or not. The Government has said that the departments will review any vacancy.

We may have some in the future but we currently do not have and we have not for some time. We will review the spaces if they become vacant. As we are not anticipating any vacancy but, as per government directives, what we will do is look at all the positions, see if any become vacant. If they become vacant what will happen is the departments will look at it to see how long they can be vacant or whether they have to be filled very quickly, and we will follow that process.

I think it is very fiscally responsible if a person leaves to make sure that the person's job is necessary, make sure that the job cannot be modified in any way or delivered in any better way. I think it is fiscally prudent to make sure that we always review the employment and what the positions are when they become vacant. It is important not to fire people when they are in their position. In no way have we expressed an interest to fire current employees. We appreciate our employees, the hard work that they are doing in this behalf. We think they are doing an excellent job.

Not only do we think that we are doing an excellent job, I think it is very good that we have actually invested in excess of $50 million in kids, in families in Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: I note on the office org chart that there is a person there by the name of Robert Santos. Can the minister indicate if Mr. Santos is any relation to MLA Conrad Santos? Mr. Rondeau: I understand that it is Conrad's son. I also understand that Mr. Santos has a– Mr. Chairperson: We cannot refer to members by name. Refer to him by constituency or portfolio. Thank you. Mr. Rondeau: I understand it is the member from Wellington's son.

I also understand from speaking to other ministers that Rob Santos has acquired a wonderful reputation as a researcher in Early Childhood and also has obtained a wonderful reputation as far as getting good evaluation, understanding the whole concepts and so he actually has a national reputation as far as his excellent work. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell me if this position for senior policy and research adviser is a brand-new position or how long has that position been in existence? Mr. Rondeau: I understand that Mr.

Santos was previously employed by the previous government in the Children and Youth Secretariat. He has been able to move up in the unit as he has progressed as far as his skills, as far as an employee in research. Within the last few months he has been able to get to the senior policy and research adviser role. He continues to exemplify the role of a good civil servant providing good advice, good research and solid work in the area of Early Childhood. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate if he has a direct appointment into this particular role?

2186 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 Mr. Rondeau: I understand that the previous government hired him as a student. He had been working as a term contract for two years, and as per the civil service collective agreement, after two years as a term, he was appointed a full-time civil servant. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate when that was? Mr. Rondeau: If memory serves me correctly, about a year ago. The appointment to the civil service was approximately about a year ago; maybe two. Mrs.

Driedger: The minister indicated that he was on contract for two years and then it was under our government that he was in a term position, a contract term position. Can the minister then explain, after that two-year period and then prior to what he is now indicating is a direct appointment, what happened to those interim years? Mr. Rondeau: As I understand, if memory serves me correctly, he was employed as a contract as a student for CYS under the former government.

In spring '01 he was given a term appointment that lasted about two years and then he was converted under the collect ive agreement provisions in the spring '03, and now it is spring '04. Well, looking at the snow you would not know it, but it is spring '04 now, which is approximately a year later. It is important to note that Rob has provided good service and excellent work. He was at school. So, when he was appointed–employed–by the former government he was still at school working on his Master's and he has proceeded to do that when he was on contract under the former government.

He was still at school taking his Master's and he is continuing to go to school and proceed through his PhD. Mr. Bidhu Jha, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mrs. Mitchelson: I think we have heard what a great employee Robert Santos is and I have no reason to argue that. I guess the question becomes, can the minister just tell us–he was on a contract position. When did he have that contract position with the former administration? * (10:50) Mr. Rondeau: I can get the details to you. I was not minister at the time in the former government.

What happened was, I was appointed by this Government as minister, not the previo us government. So what happened was, I do not know the details. I can try to get that for you, as to how the previous government, your government that you served as minister, started the employment on contract as a student for Rob Santos. What I can tell you is he was working as a term employee here throughout the first term of our Government. After two years as a term, he was converted under the collective agreement as per the collective agreement; he was converted as a permanent employee.

That is what happened under our Government. Mrs. Mitchelson: So, in fact, when did Mr. Santos begin to occupy an FTE in this office? Was he moved from a contract position to a position within the office and was that done through a competitive process? Mr. Rondeau We can get the exact date to you. Again, I do not have the exact date at my fingertips. I can get the date to you in writing or verbally, whichever is more appropriate for you, shortly. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister also include with that information a copy of his job description? Mr. Rondeau: Yes I can. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister indicate what Mr. Santos' salary is currently? Mr. Rondeau: We can provide that as well with the package. So we will give you, from what I understand, his contract date, his job description and his salary. And the date of appointment. Mrs. Driedger: I thank the minister for that undertaking. I would like to now talk about some of the programs within Healthy Child. I will start with Healthy Baby. Can the minister indicate how much money is budgeted for Healthy Baby? Mr. Rondeau: In the Healthy Baby, the 2004-2005 expenditure Estimates are $2,196,600.

The Community Support Program grants are $2,187.6

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2187 million. The financial assistance costs for program support costs are $696,200. As far as the Prenatal Benefit, there is a tiny decrease. As far as the Community Support Programs, it is a 1.9% increase. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether, last year for instance, whether or not the amount budgeted for Prenatal Benefit was actually all expended? Mr. Rondeau: It was very close to being all expended, very, very close to budget.

I do not know if it is right to the dollar amount but it was very, very close to being all expended, because a lot of these programs: the postnatal wellness; the nutrition outreach program; the resources to women and new parents, they are very extensive programs. So it was close to being totally expended. Again, I do not know if it is right to the dollar but it was very close. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate how many moms would be getting the Manitoba Prenatal Benefit and the average age of the moms? Mr. Rondeau: The number approved was 4379. The average age was 24.

To tell you the approved applicants by health region: Assiniboia North was 121; Assiniboia South was 66; Brandon was 232; Burntwood was 487; Central was 420; Churchill was 1; Interlake was 240; NOR-MAN was 171; North Eastman was 171; Parkland was 209; South Eastman was 167; Winnipeg was 2094. So it is spread quite well throughout the entire province. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us how moms are monitored? Are they monitored on a monthly basis to see if they are doing all right? Do they have counselling that is attached to that, or some kind of a similar support? Or is just a cheque given? Mr.

Rondeau: In order to qualify for this benefit, they have to go to a medical professional and actually be talking to a medical professional before they qualify for the cheques. The cheques are given out monthly and there are inserts on healthy pregnancy issues, et cetera. They are encourage to attend the support programs offered through their community, through WRHAs, et cetera. They are encouraged to attend through lots of different communication methods. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us how they qualify? Mr.

Rondeau: They have to be certified by being pregnant, that is, through the medical thing, and then it is an income base. Mrs. Driedger: Other than that, there is really no other criteria upon which they qualify. It is just they are pregnant and income-based? Mr. Rondeau: The way they do it is on a sliding scale, based on net family income. The net family income, examples: If they make $18,000 or less, a monthly prenatal benefit would be $81.41; if they made $24,000, it would $63.50; if they made $28,000, it would be $31.72; if they made $30,000, it would be $15.88; and if they made $31,999, they would make $10.

So it is a sliding scale and basically what it is, we are trying to get people to understand the importance of nutrition, health and all this to make sure that the babies are born a healthy birth weight, et cetera. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister explain how he can actually get them to understand what he is talking about and the benefits of good eating, if there is no monthly follow-up or if there is not an evaluation process? Mr. Rondeau: The Healthy Baby Community Support Programs, what we try to do is link these individuals through the initial contact with the Healthy Baby program.

It links to education, interpersonal supports, personal supports, information, et cetera, and it gets people to understand the supports that are currently out there for a healthy pregnancy. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what concrete analyses have been done to see if there are actual benefits to this program? Mr. Rondeau: There is an evaluation that is currently going on to discuss the supplement and other things that we are doing. There are some

2188 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 challenges through FIPPA, but we are working through Manitoba Centre for Healthy Policy, different organizations, to see how we can get concrete answers to that. We do have anecdotal evidence by numbers of health care providers who we trust and understand their professional opinion. What we have heard is that these programs are doing a number of things, one, making sure mothers understand FAS, understand the effects of tobacco, understand the importance of nutrition, et cetera.

So what we are trying to do, anecdotally we hear wonderful things about proper birth weights, et cetera; now what we are doing is we are working with researchers to evaluate these programs to make sure that they are having, not only the anecdotal evidence, but the true research evidence. * (11:00) Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate if there is actual research going on right now and can he table those research criteria? Mr. Rondeau: There is data being collected, but it has not been researched and processed as yet. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister explain what data is being collected and by whom? Mr.

Rondeau: What we are doing is we are collecting birth weights, as it has always been collected, and the challenge becomes trying to link the birth weight to the people who are actually receiving the benefit to make sure that there is a direct correlation to a healthy birth rate. Mrs. Driedger: The minister has indicated, what, $5 to $6 million in this particular budget? Is there no other evaluation mechanism other than just a tracking of birth weights? Mr. Rondeau: No, I am not saying that. I said that it was one example of it. There are other things that we are trying to gather; other data we are gathering.

In the case of the prenatal supplement it is $2.196 million. The other $2.187 million is the Community Support Program grants. It is $2.2 million, approximately. What we are doing is we are finding out, not only anecdotally, I know the member opposite often has lots of things that are not research- based, we are trying to do it so that we know that this having a very detailed, research-based process. What we are going to do is, we are working with a number of organizations. We are talking with the consultation with Healthy Baby communities. We are talking about health care providers.

We are working with Manitoba Centre for Health Policy to use administered health data, to assist in evaluating the prenatal benefit. We are linking the prenatal benefit to health data at MCHP to make sure that the analysis is done. We know from health care providers, from nurses, from doctors, from people who are working with childr en, that this program is having a very positive impact. What we want to do is quantify the impact and that is why we are undertaking the data collection and research now. Mrs. Driedger: The minister has not indicated, other than birth weights, what data is actually being collected.

Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Chairperson, I gave the honourable member one example. Birth weight would be a simple concrete example. We also have other ones, like the utilization of the medical system. The long-term child health records. We eventually might be able to link it to the early development instrument. It is a complete package to see how we can have positive impact on children's health. I think it is interesting that this is a program that is supported and had wonderful reviews from multiple people, from Dr. Fraser Mustard, from people who are experts in the field, who know that this is making an impact.

I find it passing strange that the member opposite does not support something as important as providing legitimate support to young mothers to ensure that they have proper nutrition and support for their young families. I find it surprising that the member opposite does not believe in the community support of health care professionals.

I find it passing strange that the member is not supporting young mothers having appropriate nutrition and giving them the proper information on FAS, tobacco strategies, et cetera, to ensure that they are not smoking and not drinking during pregnancy and so that they have the information. I think it is important to have this benefit. I think it is important to make sure that the medical community is linked to the supports that are out there with the young mothers. I think it will actually have a huge impact, and I have

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2189 faith that it will have an impact on the health of ongoing generations. Mrs. Driedger: I do not really need any condescending response from this minister who is sitting there and cannot tell us in any concrete way how this program is actually helping moms and babies. His response is absolutely ludicrous because he cannot even put on here how any of his linkages or all these wonderful reviews out there are actually making a difference.

Can the minister tell me right now whether they have actually followed the birth weights of the babies of those 4379 moms that have been given this benefit? Mr. Rondeau: The birth weights have been recorded. The program has been in existence for approximately two years. We have been collecting the data on the children and the families that are in the program for the last two years.

The Manitoba Centre is presently linking the health records of the families involved in the program to their ongoing health records and, as the member should know as a nurse, what you want to do is get a number of people so that you have a record, a long-term statistical record, to see the differences. I think we have to develop not just two years of data but a few years of data to see the concrete results statistically of how this impact goes on. As I mentioned to the member previously, we do have anecdotal reports from nurses, from practitioners, that this is having an impact.

It has an impact on the amount of people who are smoking, the amount of people who are drinking, which can create FAS. We have a number of anecdotal reports on how this affects the proper birth weight of children, but the research has to show not just in one year but over a couple of years how this directly affects the positive health of children. We have anecdotal records; we want the concrete evidence as to how much this affects the positive incomes of health of children. * (11:10) Mrs.

Driedger: I would just point out to the minister that anecdotal information is not adequate to evaluate a $2.2-million budget in and of itself. You need much, much more than that to say that there is a benefit, a value to the moms and babies who are receiving this kind of support. Can the minister tell me if PHIA actually allows him to collect birth weights on those babies whose moms receive this benefit? Mr. Rondeau: I would like to remind the member opposite that this is two years of results. The program is two years old.

It does take a little bit of time to get the data to prove the effectiveness of the program and we are doing that. One of our challenges in the data is that under PHIA we have to use anonymous data collections, that we can use the Manitoba Centre, which can link the names and the individuals anonymously and then get the long-term results that we would expect. Mrs. Driedger: The minister is indicating that the program has been existence for two years, that there are some results. Can he share those results with us in a written document next week? Mr. Rondeau: There is data now.

The results are not analyzed as yet as I mentioned earlier to the member. We are analyzing the data. We are collecting the data now. The data is being co llected now, there is raw data. There is not the results of this information. We are analyzing the data to get the results. Once we do have long-term results, we can provide that to the member. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate when that will be? Mr. Rondeau: We do not have a concrete date as yet for when the report is going to come out.

I am letting the experts work through this to ensure that they have proper time to analyze, to understand the data, to amass the data and then have appropriate professional analysis of what is going on in the program. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate who those experts are that are analyzing the data? Mr. Rondeau: The evaluation team, which is comprised of Rob Santos, is working with Manitoba Centre for Health Policy, Manitoba Health and the federal government on how to amass the information

2190 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 and how to work through it and present the evaluation results. Mrs. Driedger: Is there an initial document that has set out this research proposal? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, there is an evaluation framework document. Mrs. Driedger: Would the minister be willing to table that next week or provide me a copy of that next week? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, we would be able to provide that next week sometime. Mrs. Driedger: I thank the minister for that undertaking.

I would like to spend some time now talking about Healthy Schools and ask the minister if this is the Nurses in Schools program. Is this what it has evolved to, this title of Healthy Schools? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, it is sort of the ongoing evolution of that program. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate how many nurses have been hired and where they have been placed? Mr. Rondeau: I would like to inform the member that the Healthy Schools initiative is not about just putting nurses in every school. It is much more complex than that.

It is a program of having schools become healthy which is not just nurses in schools. It is more complex than that issue. Mrs. Driedger: I fully appreciate that. I mean, the documents the minister has talk about a comprehensive school health initiative, and I do appreciate that it is comprehensive but this is an evolution of the Nurses in Schools program which we were committed to a number of years ago. All I am asking the minister is how many nurses have they since placed in the schools and where? Mr.

Rondeau: From what I understand, none of the schools are saying that the answer to Healthy Schools is just to put nurses in schools. I understand that the RHAs are working with schools and school divisions, they are developing plans. One of the examples of Healthy Schools might be the $100 grant we gave for increasing activity in schools. As the member knows, increasing activity actually helps with children's development and so we provided a grant to schools that chose to participate in the program. What we did was provided a small grant, and then kids became more active.

We did the same thing for nutrition previously where what we did was provide a smaller grant to each school. The schools helped focus on good nutritional and eating habits and things like that. So it is not just nurses in schools, it is increasing activity, proper nutrition. The member might know that Frontier School Division adopted a nutritional policy where they threw a lot of the junk food and soft drinks out of schools.

So it is not just nurses in schools, the components or framework are promoting community-based activities that are consistent with the Manitoba Healthy Schools model, promoting province-wide resources, promoting targeted provincial activities in response to issues affecting the health and wellness of the school community. So it is not just the nurses in the schools. It is RHAs, community resources, schools working together to become healthier. Mrs. Driedger: Have there been any nurses hired and placed in schools? Mr.

Rondeau: This program would not directly hire or employ any nurse to go directly into the schools. What it is, it is a co-operative effort between the RHAs, who do employ nurses, and other stakeholders to make the school healthier. It is not just hiring a nurse and putting the nurse in the school. It might be utilization of existing nurses that work in the RHAs. It might be numbers of different programs but it is not just hiring a nurse and putting in the school. It might be utilizing existing resources in the RHA and sharing them or working together. We believe in co-operation. Mrs.

Driedger: The minister did indicate that this was an evolutionary program, this Healthy Schools evolved from the Nurses in Schools program where there was a commitment by this Government to put nurses in schools. The minister is definitely skating around this answer and I am asking him now. A commitment had been made to put nurses in schools. This program has evolved out of that commitment and the minister is refusing to answer the question. I

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2191 will ask him one more time. How many nurses have they placed, based on the commitment they made to do so? * (11:20) Mr. Rondeau: Putting nurses in schools does not necessarily mean that you are going to directly employ specific nurses to go specifically into schools. What it might mean is the RHAs might share the expertise of nurses in the field to go on a part-time basis or do something like that. They might have nurse educators that go into the schools. They might have activity co-ordinators or nutritionists or dietitians.

It is not for us to say that we want to hire a nurse and that will solve the problem. You might want to get dietitians, activity specialists, nutritionists. A lot of health care professionals might work well in a school to increase the long-term health of kids and hence our whole future generation. What they are doing in this program is that all the community partners are working together, including RHAs, including school divisions, including community partners to increase the health of the children in their schools. I do not think it is necessarily appropriate for us to hire and develop the plan for each school.

This is a community co- operative development where people are working together to improve the health and we are not mandating them not to hire specific nurses in specific schools. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I asked the minister the other day about the incidence of fetal alcohol syndrome and the data that has been collected and I have not received that information. I wonder if he has that available or could make that available? Mr. Rondeau: From what I understand, the incidence of FAS is very difficult to obtain and so we are working to collect that.

It is tough to sort of say, okay what are your instances of FAS. We are endeavouring to collect it and we will provide it to the member. We did not have it at our fingertips, nor do we at this moment. Mr.

Gerrard: I would ask the minister, in view of increasing evidence that breast milk and breast- feeding are critical not only in terms of short-term health but is very important in terms of long-term health and the incidence of cardiovascular disease, that breast-feeding can significantly decrease the incidence of atherosclerosi s later in life, what the minister is doing in terms of promoting breast- feeding and in terms of measuring changes in breast- feeding patterns in Manitoba? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Chairperson, the breast-feeding is a very important issue and I am glad the member brought it up.

It is promoted very heavily in the 85 Healthy Baby sites across the province. It is also included in the inserts for the benefit for the supplement that we had talked about earlier. We had proclaimed Breast-feeding Week. Also, the RHAs and Manitoba Health have it as major issue as far as they are trying to promote it in the hospitals when the mothers are having their baby. They are trying to promote it through midwives, et cetera, and through the Baby Friendly program across the country they are promoting breast-feeding.

I would also like to invite the member up to my office where there are a number of posters promoting breast-feeding. I think it is an important issue, especially for young families. Thank you. Mr. Gerrard: The second part of my question was, what measurements are being made to look at outcomes because, clearly, we have had numerous examples of government advertising campaigns and efforts which have spent lots of money but have not made any difference. So can you tell us whether, in fact, all of this is having any impact or whether you need to change directions and do something different? Mr.

Rondeau: Through the Healthy Baby program, we have been collecting the data for the last two years. We just started collecting the data. We are collecting data on the number of women who breast- feed, the length of breast-feeding, et cetera and then, over time, it will be on the health outcomes. So we are starting to collect that data. It does take a little bit of time to ensure that we have the data to see the trends. We are working very hard to increase the trend, to make sure more mothers are breast-feeding.

One of the things we found is that by delivering the message, not only in one way, but multiply, we might get more people to breast-feed. Mr. Gerrard: My time is up, but I would ask if the minister could send me copies of the data which has been collected to date.

2192 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 Mr. Rondeau: I can provide you the framework agreement on collection of data. When the data is finally amassed and some sort of report goes out, we can provide the member that when it is developed. Mrs. Driedger: In a document called "Healthy Schools: A Conceptual Framework," there is reference to a resource binder that has been developed, based on the conceptual framework for Healthy Schools in Manitoba, and it indicated that that binder would be available later in 2003. I wonder if I could ask the minister for a copy of that resource binder. Mr.

Rondeau: From what I understand, there are materials developed and it is a work in progress, so things are added to it, but we can provide you some of the materials that were collected so far. The good

part is is that this is a program that we do not mind adding good practice or thi ngs that are happening in the future, so there are updates periodically. Mrs. Driedger: I note that in this document that I am looking at, it does indicate that it is a work in progress and information will be added to it. Certainly I have no argument with that. So I would appreciate a copy of that resource binder from the minister. Can the minister indicate what the budget is for Healthy Schools? * (11:30) Mr. Rondeau: We are working in collaboration with school divisions, RHAs, different partners, to work through this initiative.

One of the good parts about this initiative is it is spread among multiple partners. Let us say that an RHA is providing a nurse part- time to provide education on nutrition or activity. The RHA is expected to be an active partner and provide that service to the school division without actually having money in this line. So, in other words, the RHA being an active partner will provide that service to the school divisions. It is meant to be a co-operative effort. Mrs. Driedger: Well, we are looking today at a budget for $22.3 million here.

I would assume out of that $22 million, there is an allocated amount for Healthy Schools. Could the minister tell us what that is? Mr. Rondeau: I would like to inform the member of a very good news announcement where we are going to be giving the school divisions $5,000 each in the coming next little while to promote Healthy Schools. So the $5,000 each comes to a total of approximately $200,000. Mrs. Driedger: Is the minister telling us that the total budget for Healthy Schools then is $200,000? Mr. Rondeau: What I will confirm is the Healthy Schools is a co-operative effort between multiple partners.

So an example is the resource development might be in one small part of the Budget, you have another where the school divisions are expected to contribute resources and expertise. So they might do phys ed time, they might do extra-curricular time. The RHAs are expected to contribute staff and resources to make sure that Healthy Schools participate. It is not all in one little area of the Budget.

The member had some difficulty understanding how different departments could co-operate on an initiative and part of the whole Healthy Living ministry was to break down the silos, so we would not put Healthy Living in just a small component. What it would be is a cross-departmental, so that some of the expertise and expenditure would be in Education, some of it would be in Health, some of it would be in different departments. So I have no difficulty understanding how a nurse who is paid by a regional health authority could go in and do courses or classes in schools.

In fact, previously in my former employment as a school teacher, I often had public health nurses who would come and talk about an important initiative with my classroom and I never paid the nurse out of my education budget. She did that as part of her work as a public health nurse and an educator. So, the Healthy Schools, the budget is not in one small area. What it is is every different department, every different partner is expected to contribute to that program. We are not hiring specific nurses to work in a school.

We are working in co-operation with multiple partners to improve the health care outcomes and the health of students. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us what the Healthy Baby budget is this year and what was expended last year? Mr. Rondeau: As I understand it, last year is still being finalized because the final details are not

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2193 absolutely concrete. Last year the adjusted vote was $2,264,300 for the Prenatal Benefit, for the grants it was $2,147,300 and the financial assistance program support costs was $696,200, the same as this year. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister just give the total amount of that adjusted vote for Healthy Baby for last year? Mr. Rondeau: For all components it was $5,107,800. That was the adjusted vote. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate what is budgeted for this year? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Chair, $5,080,400. Mrs.

Driedger: The next program is BabyFirst and Early Start. I do not know if he has gotten those separated out or if it is integrated into one program, in this little booklet I am looking at it is together. I would ask him what was the adjusted vote for BabyFirst and Early Start last year and then what the budget is for this year? Mr. Rondeau: Would it be okay to just do BabyFirst first and then do Early Start? Mrs. Driedger: Sure. Mr. Rondeau: BabyFirst, this year's expenditure estimates would be $6,712,700 plus $270,800 for the financial assistance.

That compares to last year's where there was 5,834,500 and the same $270,800 for financial assistance. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister just give one total amount? Mr. Rondeau: Last year's total was $6,105,300. This year's total was $6,983,500. So that was an increase of $878,200 and I do not know the percentage increase off by hand, yes, about an $800,000 increase. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate the adjusted vote for Early Star t and the budget for this year, again a total figure? * (11:40) Mr. Rondeau: The 2003-2004 adjusted vote was $1,749,400.

This year's estimate is $2,224,400, which is an increase of about half a million dollars, $501,400 to help Bonnie or sorry, to help the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson). Mrs. Driedger: Can we have the figures for Parent- Child Centered Approach? Mr. Rondeau: These figures will include the coalitions plus the direct grants to that program, Parent-Child Centres. Last year's adjusted vote for 2003-2004 is $3,025,000. This year it looks like it is $3,055,000 which is a $30,000 increase, to help the member do her math. Mrs. Driedger: Can we go through those same figures for Fetal Alcohol Syndrome programming?

Mr. Rondeau: I can inform the honourable member that there are other pockets of money that do things in prevention of FAS in other budgets, but I can tell you in the same budget period for the Healthy Child, the 2003-2004 adjusted vote was $889,400. This year's was $899,400 for a $10,000 increase to help the Member for River East . The interesting part about STOP FAS and that, though th ere are a lot of different organizations that are into that. You also have some money through the Manitoba Liquor Commission.

You have money from different organizations and so that is not just the total budget for STOP FAS in the province. Mrs. Driedger: Now I note on one of the pages in this little booklet, it talks about healthy adolescent development. Is there a program in this particular area that has a budget line? Mr. Rondeau: There is an interdepartmental committee that is working on this initiative. There are some things that we are doing through Healthy Child, for example, some community-based grants to organizations that are doing great work.

An example is Teen Talk which the honourable members are sure of, the mentoring programs, Think Again. There are a lot of different community agencies that are doing wonderful work in supporting teens. So again, it is not where the Budget is in one specific spot, it is spread around a number of different organizations. Education is doing it. Health is doing it. Lots of groups are doing it. I can tell you that in the Healthy Child we have good grants to a number of groups that are providing good services. Last year's adjusted vote was $668,200,

whereas this year's budget is $720,800 for

2194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 an increase of about–that does not look right. I will let the Member for River East do the number. An Honourable Member: Could the minister just repeat them. I just did not get them. Mr. Rondeau: Okay, I will do that again $668,200 to $720,800, so about a 40 to 50-some-odd-thousand- dollar increase. Again what this is is a whole series of smaller grants to a number of community agencies that are working with youth. So it is not just one big chunk of money and, again, it is not restricted just to Healthy Child. Mrs.

Driedger: We go through these same kinds of numbers for the adjusted vote and the current Estimates for Healthy Schools. Mr. Rondeau: I would like to inform the member that the vote last year was $700.6 thousand. This year there is no line in the Budget for this program because we have decided to approach it a different way. It was a tough budget year, and so what we have decided to do is work through different partners to ensure that the program continues, but trying to deliver it a different way.

So, as I explained to the member before, we are trying to use resources from RHAs, from schools, from community resources to deliver the program. The program will not end but it will be delivered through existing resources and through different partners. Mrs. Driedger: Is the minister then indicating that it is budgeted some place else from within government to carry forward with the Healthy Schools program? Mr. Rondeau: We are going to be using existing resources in existing departments through the different partners in the Healthy Schools program.

So RHAs will be expected to continue to partner and work with schools, school divisions will continue to expect to work using some of their resources, and we will work with multiple partners to move the initiative forward. Again, it is one budget line and one department. We do not want to focus on Healthy Living being one budget item in one small department. What we want to do is focus Healthy Living throughout the Government, throughout the community, throughout multiple agencies.

W h a t w e w a n t t o d o i s m a k e s u r e t h a t a l l individuals and all organizations understand the importance of Healthy Living, understand the importance of working together to get to a long-term positive Healthy Living message. We will continue to do that in this Government. Mrs. Driedger: Well, I hope the minister realizes that it makes it very difficult to see the transparency and accountability in a progra m if there is no budget line attached to something.

This Government is trying to go out and say they are doing all these wonderful things in Healthy Schools but there is no direct budget line for it. It appears that, from what the minister said, there is no line in the Budget this year for this, so it appears that it has been cut from Healthy Child.

Now, he is saying that the Healthy Schools program will be carried out through various other departments, but I hope he realizes the difficulty because of the lack of transparency and accountability by not having this focussed in any one place and yet, the minister is going to be out there touting this program that seems to be very fuzzy and all over the place.

Now, there have been a couple of news releases by the Government that shows 1.3 million more money put into BabyFirst and Early Start, and about 90,000 for the Turnabout program, so it looks like there is new money just in those two programs of $1.4 million. Would those numbers be accurate? Mr. Rondeau: In response to the member's first comment, by breaking down the silos between departments, between government silos, what you do is you can actually create some wonderful programs.

An example is Intergovernmental Affairs just had a wonderful announcement on the extension of the Reh-Fit Centre where you have an individual from the community come up with $3 million, the federal government come up with $1.2 million, we come up with $1.2 million, and you have other individuals, smaller contributors come up with money. By working like that, because we built a Reh-Fit Centre, no it is not the Department of Healthy Living that contributed the $1.2 million, it was a tripartite agreement. It was through Intergovernmental Affairs.

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2195 So the trouble is that if you break it down to silos, there is not one department that looks after Healthy Living. It is Education, it is in Inter- governmental Affairs, it is in Agriculture, it is in Education, so it is across the boundaries. * (11:50) So, it is not the silo appr oach, it is an integrated approach. Our department, I know the member made fun of the fact that we can work together, we do work together. Our Governme nt is co-operative and we work throughout the silos. So, if you note, the Attorney General (Mr.

Mack intosh) was there at the Turnabout program. Turnabout is an important program to keep kids healthy and out of trouble with the law, and so what we did was we made sure that that is an announcement. There are other announcements. The Reh-Fit Centre, I made that announcement on behalf of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Mihychuk). So we are trying very hard to break down the silos to work co-operatively because then to put it bluntly, we get more bang for our bucks. We move it further and everyone gets it. It is not where the Healthy Living Minister will make everybody healthy.

It is community groups, all different departments of government, all different organi- zations working together. So that becomes very, very important. It is a different way of approach. I think it is really important to know that it does work. We had 4200 hits on our Web site in three days, because people understand. It refers to other departments or organizations that are doing good work. There are great links on it. So that is the way we are going to be doing government and I think it is a good way of doing government. So that is how we will be working it.

You do not have to have all the money in Healthy Living to continue working in partnership with multiple partners to deliver. I know it is harder to say, "Okay, where is the program?" But again, w h a t w e w a n t t o d o i s s h o w y o u t h a t i t d o e s w o r k , assure you that it does work–working cooperatively with multiple departments and organizations. Mrs. Driedger: Well, the minister did not answer the question. But I will give him another chance. But he was making reference to silos. So I guess to take his logic one step further, BabyFirst is a silo. Early Start is a silo.

The Parent-Child Centres are a silo. FAS funding is a silo. Healthy adolescence is a silo. But Healthy Schools has now been totally eliminated because we cannot have a silo there because everybody else in government is going to be carrying out that program; which if you follow the logic of what he just said, that is exactly what it infers. Now I did ask the minister, there are announcements of new spending, an expanded amount of funding to BabyFirst and Early Start for $1.3 million, $90,000 for Turnabout and that amounts to $1.4 million in new money for those programs.

I was asking the minister if my analysis of that is correct. Mr. Rondeau: I would first like to say that there is integration between the Healthy Child, Healthy Baby, FAS, Parent-Child Centres, RHAs. We have in this department integrated a lot of those programs. Those people work together with the schools. They have a budget line, and what they were trying to do though is break down the silos. So if you would take the parent-child approach that they get together, the parent-child coalitions work together. A lot of these same people are at the table.

So what we are trying to do is make sure that there is integration of support. We break down the barriers so that people work together, know what each other are doing and rely on each other. That is one of the strengths. In fact, the success of the Turnabout program was very important because what they said was it was a resource to families to get them to work together to understand where the resources and supports were, through the family, to make sure that silos were broken down. The interesting

part is you hear from the families, you hear from the police, you hear from the people in Justice and they say it is working. So exactly what we are trying to do is break down the silos and barriers.

2196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 In response to your second question, yes, that is exactly what it is. Mrs. Driedger: So the minister has confirmed that out of those programs there is an additional $1.4 million added to fund those. But the Budget itself is only showing an $800,000 increase versus the $1.4 million increase. So it is obvious just from the budget line itself that cuts were made, and the cuts were obviously made to accommodate these programs. The minister has confirmed that there was a $700,000 cut to the Healthy Schools line. So that pretty much does add up as it is.

I had been wondering where the cut had been made in order for those numbers to work out but the minister has provided us with that information. It appears that the Healthy Schools program, which is interesting because the document was just put out, this Healthy Schools document was just put out last year after the election, moving towards this Healthy Schools. I think there has certainly been a lot of fanfare about this particular program and now, all of a sudden, a few months later we see this program disappear. It will be interesting to find out, maybe the minister could tell us.

How much did this whole development of this Healthy Schools framework and everything cost just for them now to eliminate it? Mr. Rondeau: I would like to inform the member there is also a small decrease of 98, no, actually a large decrease of $98.6 thousand to operating money. Again, we did not stop the Healthy Schools program. What happened is it is a comprehensive model. We have partners at the table. We are moving forward with it. I informed the member that we had given previous grants of $100 for nutrition, $100 for activity. We have given that to individual schools.

We have plans to move forward in giving grants to school divisions of $5,0 00 each, to promote healthy living. We have been moving forward on it. I think what you have to understand is that, in a comprehensive model, you do not have to have the budget line for the nurse that goes into the school in the school budget or in the Healthy Child budget. That might be in the RHA budget. You might have the nutritionist that goes in , the phys ed teacher that is focussing directly on activity, et cetera, is not in the Healthy School budget.

I know in Heritage Park School we have a phys ed teacher that is doing a walking program. He has been doing it regularly. It is a great program, and we have hundreds of kids involved, and it is not in the Healthy Child budget. He is being paid out of the school division, and I think that is an important concept to understand. It is a comprehensive model. * (12:00) Mrs. Driedger: Well, no matter how the minister is spinning it, they have eliminated $700,000 for a Healthy School budget. So that is gone. That is clear.

It certainly looks, you know, in some instances that what we have here, through what could happen with Healthy Child programs, is an illusion of activity or an illusion that there are all kind of things going on. While it sounds good conceptually on paper, you have to wonder how any number of these programs then could eventually ro ll out and how transparent and accountable would they all be. Certainly it will bear some close scrutiny ov er the next year, and that scrutiny will be in place, Mr. Chair. Mr. Rondeau: I think that we have some wonderful programs that are going on with Healthy Child.

We have good support for parents, real support for parents, real support for children. We are moving forward with FAS prevention programs. We have a prenatal supplement. We have coalitions that work very strongly with individuals and families and with each other. We are moving forward to improving the health outcomes of all Manitobans. I think it is improving the health outcomes of all Manitobans and especially early preven tion and intervention programs. Especially programs that provide positive support for families should be applauded by all members, and I know that is what is happening here.

I would like to commend the work of the department. The Healthy Child Manitoba department is very focussed, very hard working, and I think they are doing a great job. I would like to commend all the people who are working on behalf of Manitoba's children not just in Healthy Child but in parent centres, child centres, education centres. It is a whole raft of people, and I think it is important to note that when you do not work in a silo, when you work across government and across jurisdictions, I think you get far more bang for the buck and you get

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2197 better, more progressive outcomes. I think that is what this department does, and I am pleased to head a department that is breaking down the silos and moving ahead on the good health of all Manitobans. Mrs. Driedger: Well just a final comment to the minister. He is making it sound like everything is really good, that all the programs are good, and I am sure there are some that absolutely are and are beneficial, but without a solid evaluation, how does he know?

I mean how can he legitimately sit there and say that all of the programs are really working well when he does not have some solid data to back some of those assertions? So I would like to challenge the minister on that and to put evaluations, solid evaluations, solid research so that we can evaluate and measure the outcomes to see if the expenses of, you know, $22 million is actually benefiting families. I am sure in some instances it is, but we do not know that with all of the programs, and I would challenge the minister to move forward on that. We are prepared no w to move forward on a line by line. Mr.

Rondeau: We are also committed to the research. We do want to have the research. As I said, we will give you the framework for the research. Yes, we have anecdotal information, but we do want the research basis too. Mr. Chairperson: I understand we have completed debate on Healthy Child Manitoba and will now pass the resolutions. I will read Resolution 34.1 into the record. Resolution 34.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $22,301,800 for Healthy Child Manitoba for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 34.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,400 for Healthy Child Manitoba, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. Mr. Chairperson: This completes the Estimates for Healthy Child Manitoba. SENIORS DIRECTORATE Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): The next set of Estimates to be cons idered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is for the Seniors Directorate. I understand we will have a short recess. The committee recessed at 12:05 p.m. ________ The committee resumed at 12:07 p.m. Mr. Chairperson: Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be cons idering the Estimates of the Seniors Directorate. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister responsible for Seniors): Yes, I do, Mr. Chairperson. As Minister responsible for Seniors, I am pleased to present the 2004-2005 Budget Estimates for the Manitoba Seniors Directorate. The needs of seniors are important to this Government. Seniors currently make up over 13 percent of Canada's population and Manitoba has one of the highest numbers of seniors per capita in the country.

By the year 2021 , estimates indicate one third of Manitoba's population will be age 55 or older. For the first time ever, Manitoba's population will have more people 65 and older than 14 and younger. Last year, we announced our Advancing Age: Promoting Older Manitobans strategy. It is designed to lead government in developing a co- ordinated framework of legislation, public policy and programs to address current emerging and future needs of older Manitobans. This strategy recognizes the importance of consulting with seniors and engaging them in the process.

Last year we provided financial support for key seniors' organizations, Age and Opportunity, Creative Retirement, Manitoba Society of Seniors and la Fédération des aînés franco-manitobains, each with $20,000. In return, they have provided us with valuable advice regarding a number of issues. They are working to strengthen and enhance their ability to work on behalf of older Manitobans and I look

2198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 forward to their continued support and collaboration in this, the second year of the initiative. We are now in the process of developing a comprehensive inventory of programs and services available to older Manitobans in various government departments. When completed later this year, this inventory will provide valuable insights into the many ways we can currently address the needs of seniors, who will also help us plan for emerging and future needs as our population continues to age.

As we look at the challenges of an aging population, our Government is looking at ways to make the Seniors Directorate more effective in its work across departments, as noted in the November, 2003 Speech from the Throne. We will be enhancing communication and focussing resources on issues that are important to older Manitobans. We are also committed to enhancing access to the government resources and improving the service delivery to seniors and their families. * (12:10) Sharing knowledge and information remains important.

The Seniors Directorate maintains an active Web site and produces a number of helpful publications. To ensure a continued and vibrant program of publications, we are seeking new partners within government and the community to assist in our efforts. As we l l , w e h a v e j u s t r e l e a s e d the 2004-2005 edition of Manitoba Council on Aging's Manitoba Seniors' Guide. It continues to be a valuable source of information and is used by seniors, caregivers, and professionals across the province. This continues to be a wonderful publication with lots of positive information.

How older adults are perceived and valued is a key factor in the services and opportunities available for Manitobans as they age. One of the short-term strategies of advancing age is to dispel myths and misconceptions of aging through the video, Seniors are Cool, and the resource guide. Using this upbeat video as an interactive tool , Seniors Directorate staff are meeting with health care professionals, older Manitobans and students from elementary schools through to universities. These meetings lead to open discussion about age, culture, gender, lifelong learning and active living.

The Seniors Directorate staff is continuing these and other discussions. They are meeting in rural and northern Manitoba and working with our colleagues in other provinces and territories, as well as with those in the federal government to address a broad range of interests and concerns to older Manitobans. As Minister responsible for Seniors, I actively seek the views of older Manitobans and organizations that work on their behalf. From the Partners Seeking Solutions group to the St.

James Assiniboia Senior Centre, from the Manitoba Association of Multi Purpose Senior Centres to the University of Manitoba's Centre on Aging, I have listened to ideas, issues and concerns. Addressing elder abuse remains a priority. Our province continues to be a leader in this area with our elder abuse initiative. Community response monitoring teams have been developed, or are being developed, in the Assiniboine, Brandon, Burntwood, Interlake and NOR-M AN, North Eastman, and Parkland regional health authorities.

These teams bring together community resources such as finance institutions, police services, regional health and community organizations to share information and resources. Their goal is to respond to issues and provide support at the community and regional level. We are also recognizing other important areas of senior safety and security through several innovative projects. Manitoba's Seniors Directorate, along with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba and RCMP has developed a seniors' safety and security badge for Girl Guides. This badg e focusses on elder abuse, fraud, scams and addictions.

I am pleased to report this program will be expanded throughout the entire province of Manitoba. Partnerships continue to be a vital component of the work we do. The Seniors Directorate has been a partner with the Manitoba's Consumer Bureau and several government departments in developing a 2004 Protect Yourself consumers' awareness calendar. This calendar provides important safety tips to help prevent consumers from being victimized by frauds and scams.

Plans are underway for a 2005 calendar and, again, this was very popular in the seniors community and the people I had a chance to give it to were very pleased at this calendar. The Seniors Directorate has also worked with Manitoba Justice, the Winnipeg Police Service, and Age and Opportunity in developing the SafetyAid crime protection for older Manitobans program. As

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2199 part of the program, the safety team visits seniors' residences in high-crime areas of Winnipeg. They provide security devices and safety audits to increase the security of seniors' homes. Our Manitoba Council on Aging continues to provide valuable services, advice on issues of concern and need to seniors. In this past year, the council has addressed matters as diverse as property tax, international pharmacy, seniors' housing, lifelong learning, etc.

The Council continues to share perspectives with me on current issues as we are now exploring options on how to support an ever-broader consultation process. Our Government is committed to ensuring our seniors maintain the highest quality of life now and in the future. To meet this goal, the Seniors Directorate will continue to lead government in creating an environment that promotes health, independence and well-being for all Manitoba's seniors. I am pleased with the work that the Seniors Directorate continues to do on behalf of government and all our seniors.

I would like to commend their work and their continued work in support of healthy aging of Manitoba's seniors. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Southdale, have any opening comments? Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): I would like to just put a short comment on the record in regard to the Seniors Directorate and the area of Estimates that we are going through right now.

I have had the opportunity, actually, to be the minister responsible for seniors, and I found it very, very satisfying and very, very educational in the fact that I had an opportunity to spend a lot of time with seniors' organizations, not only here in Winnipeg but throughout all of Manitoba. And the one thing that the minister has referred to is the strength and the commitment that we have in our seniors' community and the fact that it is growing. As has been pointed out, we will have one of the highest percentages of seniors in Manitoba, within the next short while, than any other province in Canada .

So the efforts that are put forth by government, government of any stripe, towards recognizing the seniors and their contributions and the problems and the challenges that come to government, because of the situations that are put before us with an aging population is something that is commendable, that the Seniors Directorate has continued since its inception in 1988, when the government of the day then appointed a role for a Cabinet minister to be directly responsible and accountable, in a sense, to the seniors population here in Manitoba.

I know that there are a few other questions that I would like to ask, so with just those short comments, maybe we can into the Estimates. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from the Official Opposition for those remarks. Would the staff please come forward and would the minister introduce his staff. Mr. Rondeau: I am joined today by Jim Hamilton, who is the Executive Director, and Patti Chiappetta, the Director of Policy Development. Mr. Chairperson: Does the committee now wish to proceed through Estimates in a chronological manner or have a global discussion? Mr.

Reimer: Global discussion maybe for all the various departments in the Seniors Directorate. Mr. Chairperson: Do we have agreement to have a global discussion? [Agreed] Mr. Reimer: I have a few questions, and I guess when the minister was talking about the donations that were made to various organizations, I noticed in the Grants

section of the Es timates that there is an amount there also included. Maybe he can tell me which groups have been allocated, or which groups will be allocated, that money. I believe in the Estimates it is just over $65,000. Mr. Rondeau: Under the grants there is $60,500 for Age and Opportunity for the Elder Abuse Services that you are aware of, an d MSOS Games is getting $5,000 under the grants. Mr. Reimer: So this $60,500 would be going towards the Elder Abuse line. Could the minister give me any indication of the amount of calls that are coming in to the Elder Abuse line?

2200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 Mr. Rondeau: I will give you the numbers for a historical perspective. On the information line for seniors in 2002-2003 was 3593 and in '03-04 was 3527, so it is very similar. On the Abuse line in 2002-2003, it was 154; on the '03-04, it was 254. There was a considerable increase, but I think that was due to the advertising. We started putting up more posters about it, and I think that really was good because then we got more calls. Mr.

Reimer: Is there any general classification of the calls that are coming in on the Elder Abuse line as to what areas most of the concerns are being phoned in on? Mr. Rondeau: The types of calls on the abuse line, the 254 calls were broken down as follows: 45 percent were on financial abuse; 40 percent were on emotional abuse; 5 percent were on neglect; 2 percent were physical; and 2 percent were other. Most of them were on financial or emotional abuse, and then the actual physical were only 2 percent and neglect were 5 percent. Mr.

Reimer: Is the Elder Abuse line phone number or pamphlet available in the personal care homes? Mr. Rondeau: The posters and brochures, both, are in personal care homes, hospitals. We have a very wide distribution. Mr. Reimer: Moving on to the Council on Aging, I noticed that it says it is a 15-member council. Are there 15 members on that council at present including the chairperson? * (12:20) Mr. Rondeau: Yes, there is. Mr. Reimer: Maybe the member could, if he has the list handy, it could be just read into the Hansard. Just the name and the location. I do not particularly need their address right now. Mr.

Rondeau: Norma Drosdowech in Winnipeg; Mme. Lorraine Bonnefoy in Winnipeg; John Gano in Winnipeg; Paul Hagen, Springstein; Claude Hebert, Winnipeg; Kathy Horkoff, Winnipeg; Mme. France Lemaye, St. Boniface; Virginia Maracle, Winnipeg; Rene Toupin, East St. Paul; Bernice Marmel, Winnipeg; Raoul McKay, Winnipeg; Jeanette Niven, Minitonas; Archie Orlikow, Winnipeg; Joseph Slomiany, Brandon; and Eleanor Spencer, Flin Flon. I can provide you with the list, if you wish. Mr. Reimer: Yes, if the minister could supply the list that would be good.

The only concern I would have is I did not hear too many names from the rural area. I believe that in my count there may have been three or four only. Mr. Rondeau: There are four basically from rural and one northern right now. Mr. Reimer: In the flowchart of the organization chart supplied in the Estimates, it has the elder abuse consultant and then three consultants. Would the minister have the individuals' names for those four positions? Mr.

Rondeau: The elder abuse consultants just have been changed due to maternity leave, and that is Eileen Mead; she is seconded to the position and what has happened is, that is just filling a mat leave. The other consultants are Karlee Spiers, Helen Forrest and Paulette Desaulniers. Mr. Reimer : With the Council on Aging, has the council been doing any type of meetings outside of Winnipeg and maybe the minister at the same time could give me the frequency of meetings that the council has undertaken, say, for the last year? Mr. Rondeau: Presently, they ar e meeting four times a year.

I am pleased to inform the member that we are planning to increase that to five and have one outside Winnipeg. Mr. Reimer: Have there been any meetings outside of Winnipeg, say, in the last two years? Mr. Rondeau: Not as a full council, but members have attended outside meetings. That is why we are getting a change where we are going to have one meeting outside of Winnipeg this year, and hopefully in the future; a positive change. Ask me one more question. Mr. Reimer: I know that the minister has mentioned the MSOS Games.

I know that I have had the opportunity to attend those games, and the participation by a lot of the members within the association and the seniors throughout Manitoba is something that is of a nature that a lot of them enjoy. I have gone to a lot of the events. I can remember

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2201 going down to, I believe it was Morris, and I believe it was out in western Manitoba, and I think it moves around to various locations throughout Manitoba. The participation other than the bungee jumping is very, very well-attended. I believe that the MSOS Games–The minister mentioned that there is a donation of $5,000 through the department. Last year, I believe, there was also a donation that he mentioned to the Age and Opportunity.

Would there be any grants going to, pardon me, I did not mean Age and Opportunity, I meant Creative Retirement I am sorry, for their operations. Maybe also the minister can answer whether there have been any overtures made by the seniors association, various seniors organizations, for amalgamation of sort of a central campus. I know there was talk of a campus type of operation being set up here in Winnipeg and whether there has been any movement on that. Mr. Rondeau: I would like to respond by saying it has been enjoyable to watch the former minister of seniors at a lot of the senior's events.

It has been pleasurable. I know it is a great ministry to hold because you are working with very positive, enjoyable people doing wonderful things. I would like to respond by saying that there has been initial work on this central campus but what we are tying to do is, through UDI and REDI, support the seniors groups in multiple ways. I understand that through the Advancing Age , they are going to be getting grants to support their work. With three minutes left– Mr. Reimer: At this time, we are willing to pass the Estimates. Mr.

Chairperson: I understand the debate on Seniors Directorate has been completed, and we will pass the resolutions. Resolution 24.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $733,100 for Seniors Directorate for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 24.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,000 for Seniors Directorate, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. This concludes the Estimates for the Seniors Directorate.

The hour being 12:30 p.m. the committee will rise. ADVANCED EDUCATION AND TRAINING * (10:00) Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Advanced Education and Training. Does the honourable Minister of Advanced Education and Training have an opening statement? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): Yes, I do, Madam Chair. Would you like me to proceed? Madam Chairperson: Please. Ms. McGifford: I will be brief. I know that the member opposite and I have had a short discussion and we think that in the interests of expediency, we should be brief. So I will endeavour to do that.

The Advanced Education budget for 2004-2005 is $541.9 million and represents a 2.8 increase over last year. The total capital for universities and colleges is 18,549.5 and includes an increase of 1.8 million for the mould and asbestos remediation at the Thompson campus of KCC and I am sure my colleague opposite knows about that issue.

Operating increases to universities an d colleges, base operating grants to public universities and colleges have been increased by 2 percent overall, including a 1.8 base adjustment, 465,000 for year 4 of the rural physician resource plan and a special funding adjustment of 200,000 for Red River College. Universities have received property tax savings of 3.4 million or 1.3 percent, bringing the actual increase for universities to 3.3 percent. Colleges have received an increase of 4. 3 million for the college

2202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 expansion initiative for a total increase of 8.2 percent. ACCESS programs have been increased by 2.3 percent in addition to 175,000 for a new program in developmental stage called the integrated Aboriginal Teach er Education, and we could talk about that later if the member so wishes. Tuition in Manitoba remains among the lowest in Canada. As I am sure my colleague knows, the reduction of 10 percent was made in the year 2000 and we have maintained that reduction over five budgets.

Manitoba Student Aid and the Manitoba Student Loan Service Bureau have been amalgamated into Manitoba Student Aid in the interests of providing more effective service to students. I think I will just not go into the specifics right now, but leave it to the member to ask questions. I do want to say a word about bursaries. This year we have set aside 6.3 million for the Manitoba Bursary, 5 million for Manitoba Scholarship and Bursary Initiatives, 2.3 for ACCESS bursaries and 1 million for other bursaries and grants.

In addition, there is 12.9 million for tuition rebate grants that is related to the tuition reduction; 2.9 million for medical student resident financial assistance; 2.1 million for Canada Study Grants; 11 million for the Canada Millennium Scholarship Bursary which comes from the federal government, at least, indirectly at this point; 0.35 million for graduate fellowships. I was very pleased last night to announce $50,000 this year for the Helen Betty Osborne Memorial Fund Educational Award at the Helen Betty Osborne dinner last night. This will be continued for three years.

Student debt load levels in Manitoba have been reduced to an average of 6000 per year for most students, although through this $6.3-million Manitoba Bursary and $11-million Canada Millennium Scholarship Bursary. Manitoba Student Aid, formerly the Student Aid Loan Service Bureau, currently administers a portfolio of 33 million consisting of 13 000 loans. In the fiscal year '03-04, there were 9600 loans totalling $22.6 million. I think it is important to mention at this point that the percentage of students in Manitoba who actually take student loans is the lowest in Canada, I believe.

If it is not the very lowest, it is certainly among the lowest. It is less than 25 percent. Now this is who takes student loans from public sources. I mean students may be borrowing money from their families, I do not know. We do not keep a record of that because it is none of our business of course. Enrolment increases. I am sure the member is aware that university an d college enrolment has increased quite dramatically, over 30 percent since we have been in government. A word about Hydro Northern Training and Employment Initiative, our pre-project training.

The initiative is proceeding to offer training to prepare northern Aboriginal residents for future hydro-electric employment opportunities. Over $8 million has been invested to date. That is a combination of money from Manitoba and from Manitoba Hydro. Over 1300 individuals have been assessed. Over 400 training participants have been involved in a range of activities. I have some other things here. We are working on a job registration referral service. The member may be interested in speaking about that later. This is specifically in relation to the hydro-electric projects in the North.

Federal funding for these projects. Manitoba parties submitted a proposal of $22 million requesting federal support for Manitoba pre-project training. That is, again, for this initiative in the North. The proposal. A proposal of one or two currently is among one or two that are currently being considered at the federal level and we hope for some good news very soon. In '04-05, the projections with Hydro training are training activities that will be underway with each First Nation partner. Funds for other northern Aboriginals currently in development, we anticipate implementation by fall 2004.

Potential of up to $5 million to $10 million training investment in pre- project training activities in '04-05. A quick word about our adult–I keep saying "quick" and that is because I am trying to be quick to accommodate my colleagues so we can have lots of time to ask questions–learning literacy. Earlier this week I announced a grant of $13.7 million to help support Manitoba's very vibrant adult education programming which is offered at 43 adult learning centres which operate at 70 sites across the province. Adult learning centres are tuition-free.

They teach skills and courses that result in either a completed 28-credit high school diploma or a mature high–it must be mature student high school diploma but I have in my notes a mature high school diploma,

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2203 which indicates that somehow there is an immature one. As well, our centres provide adults with high school diplomas, provide them the opportunity to upgrade specific courses that will enable them to access post-secondary educ ation or employment opportunities.

So, if a student has been away and wishes to return to post-secondary education, he or she may wish to polish his or her skills, and this offers that kind of opportunity. * (10:10) Last year, '02-03, which is the last year for which we have complete information, 1000 diplomas were awarded and 9766 students completed 11 624 credits. So it seems that it is working very well. This year we also have set aside a small amount of money for computer technology, refreshing computer technology in the adult learning centres.

One of the things of course it is extremely important for modern students to know how to do is to have highly evolved computer skills, so what is taking place is students are graduating with computer skills as well as with the other credentials that I mentioned. We are very pleased this year to have announced our new Technical Vocational Education Initiative. I announced it with Minister Bjornson. Can I say his name here? I am sorry. I do apologize. With the Minister for Education, Citizenship and Youth, we announced a three-year initiative which was valued at $4.5 million.

We will work in partnerships with schools, colleges, business, industry, labour and the communities. The initiative will link high school and college programming, so making it easier for students to proceed from high school to post- secondary education. It will also ensure skills learned by students are relevant to the current market needs, which help facilitate the acquisition of meaningful employment after graduation. We thought it was really important and continue to think it is really important to update our technical vocational education programming.

Apprenticeship: This year marks the 60th anniversary of apprenticeship as a legislative training program in Manitoba. The Skills Canada competition, which will be held in Winnipeg at the end of May, provides the opportunity to highlight this anniversary. This is a big coup for Manitoba to be hosting the Skills Canada competition. Approximately 1215 new registrations for a total of 4800 registered apprentices are expected in '04-05. Approximately 700 journeypersons will be certified through apprenticeship training in '04-05.

Approximately 300 journeypersons are expected to become certified through the trades qualification examination process in '04-05. I think that is also known as TQ. In-school technical training was provided to 2700 apprentices throug h the community college system and other training providers. That would, I assume, be '03-04 although I do not have a date here. There are continued join t ventures with the Aboriginal communities to increase Aboriginal participation in the apprenticeship programming.

They include liaison with Aboriginal Apprenticeship Program advisory committee to ensure that the Aboriginal Apprenticeship Program is effectively promoting and enhancing training and employment opportunities in the skills trades for First Nations, Métis and Inuit, while meeting the unique local education and economic development needs of the community. Just a word about our new community-based Bachelor of Education ACCESS program. I think I mentioned that earlier.

This initiative supports the development of a community-based Bachelor of Education program in the Winnipeg area, whereby Aboriginal persons are trained and hired by school divisions as educational assistants and can complete the Bachelor of Education through summer and weekend coursework. I think this is wonderful because it really tailors itself to persons who are family and have to support their family whilst they access post-secondary education. A quick word about floodway training initiative. We are working with stakeholders.

This initiative provides funding to train Manitobans for employment opportunities related to the expansion of the Red River Floodway and thereby contributing to meeting the future needs of skilled labour and the development of a more representative workforce in Manitoba. I just also wanted to mention the University College of the North. I know that the member is

2204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 familiar with the act that has been tabled past second reading, and I believe we are in committee on Tuesday. The University College of the North, which was given a boost initially by the former Premier Filmon, is of course one of the things–one of the educational initiatives–I should not say "a thing"; that is a very inaccurate, non-descriptive word–that we really value. We see it as a jewel in the educational crown, I suppose.

We think it is so important to provide greater opportunities for northern peoples, particularly Aboriginal peoples, because we have not been doing a great job at preparing these people for post- secondary education. I could go into all the economic arguments as to why we should be doing this, but I think it is sufficient to say that these people deserve the same kinds of opportunities as other Manitobans. It is only justice. The other thing is, I think it is important to make the point that people should have control over education in their community, and that is also part and parcel of this project.

With those few words, thank you, Madam Chairperson, I am finished for now. Madam Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Advanced Education and Training for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Steinbach, have any opening comments? Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. I want to thank the minister for the comments that she put on the record. I think that they were helpful to me as a new critic. Certainly, I make mention of the fact that I am the new critic.

One of the critic's responsibilities that I have is Advanced Education and with that comes good things and bad things for the minister. One of the difficult things is I will have to put out a warning that this is somewhat a learning experience for me, learning the department, and no pun intended, but a learning experience for me as I go through the Estimates. I received the Estimates books less than 24 hours ago so it was somewhat of a study session for me last night. I had some questions, of course, in advance, but the details of the department I went through last night.

It was somewhat reminiscent of my own university days cramming for upcoming exams, although there I usually had reasons of procrastination, I had no one but myself to blame. This, on the details anyway of the department, I had the opportunity just last night to go through. I do appreciate the comments from the minister. I did have the opportunity to see her on TV last night making the presentation on the bursary, the grant for the Helen Betty Osborne Foundation, so I think that was positive and a good announcement to see.

As we go forward in the Estimates, it is worth noting I think my own perspective that I bring to the Estimates. It is not that long ago, in fact, not that long ago at all that I left the University of Manitoba as a graduate, a graduate for the third time actually of the University of Manitoba, having graduated from the Asper School of Business and the Faculty of Law so I have still very much a student's perspective in s o m e w a y s i n t h a t s e n s e .

S o m e o f t h e q u e s t i o n s might reflect that perspective that I bring to the table and where that side of the classroom is coming from in some regard, and I think that is positive in a lot of ways. I think the minister would recognize that Advanced Education is really about students and about providing that education for those that are there. Certainly, the minister in the past, I would say on the record without reservation, is passionate about the department. I think she approaches it with all the right intentions.

I get the sense that the minister does care deeply about Advanced Education and that is positive. I would commend the minister for that. We might differ, of course, as parties often do on certain directions and certain policies, but I will not question any of the motivation of the minister. I think that is important to put on the record up front. It was worthwhile going though the Estimates to note some of the initiatives in Training. I am less familiar with those areas of the department.

Where there comes to the training initiative for the floodway, which the minister mentioned in her opening comments, I want to explore that a little bit further, whether it is training for the Hydro project in the North, and will have some questions on that as well. Apprenticeship, which the minister mentioned, I will have some questions regarding that and perhaps some more detailed questions on the University

May 14, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2205 College of the North, which the minister correctly indicates, is on to committee in this Legislature. We will have opportunity to hear people present on the university at that time but we will certainly take the opportunity now to put forward some questions as that project moves forward. * (10:20) I think that the staff that are here, I see a bit of an army of staff. I know there are some shared services within the department with Education and Youth. It is certainly not our intention to keep staff here unnecessarily.

I know, as I look over at staff, that s o m e o f t h e m w e r e h e r e for the Education and Training Estimates, if I am correct, and I do not want to give any fears or lay the fears early that it is our expectation that the Estimates for this particular department will wrap up at the conclusion of our committee today without any unforeseen occurrences happening. So there should be some assurances there for the staff as they come forward, but I want to commend certainly all the staff in the department and of course those who are here today to participate in the Estimates process.

But also those who are in the department who are not here today who kind of do the daily work of ensuring that there is the proper training and advanced education for our students in Manitoba. So with those brief comments as well, Madam Chair, I believe that we are ready to proceed. Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the Official Opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate of Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department.

Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and proceed with the consideration of the remaining items referred in Resolution 44.1. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce her Ms. McGifford: I am pleased to introduce my staff. First of all, Pat Rowantree, the Deputy Minister of Advanced Education and Training, and off in the corner is Curtis Nordman, who is the Director of Special Services and Student Aid.

Sitting beside him is Louise Gordon, who is the Executive Director of the Council on Post-Secretary Education; Veronica Dyck, who is Manager of the UCN Implementation Team; Claude Fortier, Finance; and Dwight Botting, who is the ADM of Training. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister. We will now proceed to the remaining items contained in Resolution 44.1 on page 27 of the main Estimates book. Shall the resolution pass? Mr. Goertzen: I wonder, Madam Chair, if we could have an agreement to have a global discussion on the Estimates as I indicated in my opening comments.

It is our intention to move these Estimates forward by the end of the committee's allotted time here today. So there will not be any necessity for staff to return at another time and I also understand that the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Gerrard) wants some time to ask questions as well. While I intend to go through my questions on a relatively systematic basis set out more or less with the

schedule of the Estimates, I would like some latitude to move back and forth. I think the Liberal Leader will want some latitude as well. Madam Chairperson: There has been a request for global discussion. Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Goertzen: Just some opening questions that are somewhat more into details and I will probably want to have more broad policy discussions at some point.

But in terms of the minister's executive staff, specifically her special assistant and executive assistant, could she tell me who those individuals are who are filling those positions currently and how long they have been in those positions? Ms. McGifford: Yes, I could. My executive assistant is Doreen Wilson, and Doreen Wilson has been in her position since fall 1999. She has been in that position since the '99 election, or just after. My special assistant is Rick Rennie, and he has been in his position since October 2003. Time flies when you re having fun. a Mr.

Goertzen: Can the minister indicate who was the special assistant prior to Mr. Rennie, who took over his position in October 2003, and if that individual is still with government in some capacity? Ms. McGifford: Thank you for the question. The former special assistan t was Susan McMurrich, and

2206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 14, 2004 Susan is a nurse by profession. She now works with Healthy Child Manitoba. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that answer. I think in previous Estimates, specifically last year, a critic went through a fairly detailed examination of the flow chart that is provided in the Estimates book this year on page 11.

Rather than go through a name by name accounting, I wonder if the minister could just indicate if there are any individuals on that flow chart who have come into the department since the last Estimates process, which would have been, I think, September of 2003. Are there any new individuals who have come in on any of those positions indicated on the flow chart? Ms. McGifford: No, there are no new individuals. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that indication. That certainly does save us some of the time. Ms.

McGifford: Excuse me, we have just realized that the person from Systems and Technology Services, the director Colin McDonald, began sometime during the last year, so this individual would not have appeared on the former flow chart in any capacity. Mr. Goertzen: Just to follow up to that, was Mr. McDonald's position filled by a competition, and his predecessor–is it a new position, or is that position– did they leave? Ms. McGifford: Old position, filled by competition.

I should note another new name that is supposed to appear on our chart is Don Robertson who has been chairing the Universi ty College of the North Implementation team. He was formerly the chair of COPSE, but he was certainly the individual that we deemed most capable for doing this work, so he is doing this work this year. Tom Glenwright from Manitoba Student Aid was an employee on the other side that is in, what we call "the other side." That does not mean in the Tory party, by the way. That means in Education, Citizenship and Youth. He was working there and he is now with us. Mr.

Goertzen: I thank the minister for those answers. Just some questions on the

summary pages that are set out in the first few pages of the descriptions. It notes that one of the goals of Advanced Education and Training is to expand the range of people that it has served. This is one of the questions that struck me about that, my background being more from the advanced education at the university side. This just brought the question to me. Can you tell me what type of promotion happens for our universities outside of the province of Manitoba?

I know there is a great deal of promotion that happens within the province for students, but I am wondering if Advanced Education plays an active role in promoting our major universities or our colleges outside of the province and if that funding is part of the operational grant that goes to universities and colleges and then they determine their own promotion activities, or does Advanced Education and Training have separate funds to do that promotion? Ms.

McGifford: When we talk in this context of expanding the range of people served, we really mean expanding educational opportunities to underrepresented groups within the province of Manitoba, for example disabled people, Aboriginal peoples, to some degree new immigrants, to some degree people who may not normally access post- secondary education for socio-economic reasons. I just had

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-38c
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 38c.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7f8b6d36e745faa6a6620ffa270ee9d4549bd6b2

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