Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 30 (29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-30

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON EAST BRAN DON WEST BURROWS CHAR LESWOOD CHURCHILL CRESCENTWOOD DAUPHIN ELMWOOD EMERSON FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKESIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OSBORNE PEMBINA POINT DOUGLAS PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINELAND RI EL RIVER HEIGHTS ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROSSMERE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHNS ST. MATTHEWS ST. VITAL STE.

ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-KILLARNEY SPRING FIELD STURGEON CREEK SWAN RIVER THE PAS THOMPSON TRANSCONA VIR DEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. Douglas Watt Steve Patrick Harry E. Graham Hon. Leonard S. Evans Edward McGill Hon. Ben Hanuschak Arthur Moug Gordon Wilbert Beard Cy Gonick Hon. Peter Burtniak Russell J. Doern Gabriel Girard Thomas Barrow Bud Sherman Mrs. lnez Trueman · John C. Gottfried James Robert Ferguson Hon. Sidney Green Peter Fox Hon. Sam Uskiw Harry J. Enns Leonard A. Barkman William Jenkins Waiter Weir Warner H. Jorgenson lan Turnbull George Henderson Donald Malinowski Gordon E.

Johnston Harry Shafransky Jacob M. Froese Donald W. Craik Sidney Spivak, Q.C. J. Wally McKenzie Henry J. Einarson Hon. Ed. Schreyer Jean Allard Laurent L. Desjardins Bill Uruski Hon. Al. Mackling Hon. Saul Cherniack, O.C. Wally Johannson Jack Hardy Gildas Molgat Hon. Howard Pawley Hon. Saul A. Miller Earl McKellar Hon. Rene E. Toupin Frank Johnston James H. Bilton Ron McBryde Hon. Joseph P. Borowski Hon. Russell Paulley Morris McGregor Hon. Philip Petursson Bud Boyce Leonard H.

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Boniface 6 Box 629, Arborg, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 471 Home St., Winnipeg 10 11 Glenlawn Ave., Winnipeg 8 463 Kingston Crescent, Winnipeg 8 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Nesbitt, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 Swan River, Manitoba 56 Paul Ave., The Pas, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Kenton, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 116Y:z Sherbrook St., Winnipeg 1

THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o'clock, Friday, September 12 , 19 69 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 681 MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Pet itions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-Gen eral . The Honourable Member for R..l-tineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): I wonder if I could have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: A request has been made by an honourable member to have the matter stand. HON.

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Tran scona): ..... to proceed with this just as quickly as possibl e, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Agreed ,) Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. At this point I wish to bring to the attention of the honourable members that in keeping with past practice arrangements have been made for next Thursday, September 18th at 2:00 o'clock to have this Legislative Assembly shot by a photographer.

To add life and character to the photograph of this Chamber, your attendance at the time mentioned would be appreciated and also the attendance of the Clerk, his Deputy, the Sergeant-at-Arms and the staff in the Chamber and the members of the press gallery. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposi tion. ORAL QUESTION PE RIOD MR. WALTER WEIR (Leader of the Opposit ion)(Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Health if he has yet met with the Dental Association in relation to their proposed dental insurance plan. HON.

SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Health & Social Service s)(In kster): No, Mr. Speaker. I don't wish to leave the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition with any misunderstanding. When he asked the question as to whether I would consider meeting with them I answ ered yes, but I haven't yet decided that I'm going to meet with them and I have not met with them yet. MR. WEIR: Well, Mr. Speaker, does the Minister then think that it's good that the Dental Association should enter this field without at least some discussions with the Department of Health, that it should be done in complete isolation? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding is that the Dental Association is consider ing a scheme whereby people will be able to insure themselves for prepayment of their dental costs. This is somet hing that they are quite free to do and I frankly am not certain whether the department need meet with them in this regard. MR. WEIR: Well, Mr. Speaker, does the Minister not believe that it is in the interests of the people of Manitoba that the Department of Health should be aware of what is going on? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the department is aware, but neverthe les s there are numerous things that are going on in Manitoba with regard to this particular aspect which do not in any way infringe upon any governmental or other rules which people can do and which we are not going to investig ate into every one of them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C, (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, really another question but suppl emental . Is the Department of Health and Welfare now working with any group for the possibilit y of a pharmaceutical plan equivalent to a denticare plan?

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I can advise the honourable member that the department is actively considering the hardship which is imposed by the high cost of drugs and hopes to do somet hing in this regard. MR. SPIV AK : A supplementary question. Would the Honourable Minister of Health not feel therefore that it would be advisable to meet with the Dentists Association in view of th e fact that this also is a hardship for many people. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I advised the House when this question first arose that the hope of the Department of Health is that we will be able to provide more and more social responsibility for health needs. One of the areas that we look to in the future is a dental care plan. The fact that the dentists are now considering a private plan similar to the previous medical plan in no way seems to us to be a problem insofar as our future program is concerned.

682 September 12, 1969 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel) : Mr. Speaker, a question to the First Minister. I wonder if he could indicate to the House along the lines of a radio interview this morning respecting mining royalty taxation, whether or not there are intentions to make changes. HON. ED. SCHREYER (Premier and Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Rossm ere) : Mr.

Speaker, members of this government have never tak.en any different position other than that the mining royalty levels in this province required review and possible upward adjustment to bring it more in line with royalties prevailing in other jurisdi ctions. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question . The news report indicated that the First Minister had met with the principals or some of the principals of lli!CO.

Has he met as well with the other major mining companies presently operating in Manitoba, Huds on's Bay Mining and Smelting, Sherritt-Gordon, and the other company that is tentatively thinking of coming in at Wabowden, Falconbridge. MR. SCHREYE R: Mr. Speaker, yes, with some of those for an exchange of views. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Ar thur) : Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

In the light of his state ment on radio and press yester day in regard to the committee that he has set up, which I believe was to look into the economic crisis that exists at the moment in agriculture in the Pro vince of Manitoba, he seemed to indicate that this committee were also charged with the respo nsibility of revamping the whole structure of the agricultural department of Manitoba and probably the direction that agriculture would go, My question is: would he not consider it fair today to indicate to us the personnel of this committee that is charged with the very extreme responsibility and that affects all farmers in the Province of Manitoba.

HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)( Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the honourable member to go back and review what has been said. He will find that he's in error completely. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question. I don't think that I am in error of what has been said prior in this House, but I did ask the question of the personnel of the com mittee that are charged with the respons ibility of revamping agriculture in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SCHREYE R: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, it seems that the practice that existed before certainly has developed in recent days. So many of the questions are purely argumentative. MR. SPEA KER: I do agree with the First Minister. I had cautioned members in respect of propriety of questions previously and I hope that the honourable members keep some of the comments in mind. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LE ONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye) : Mr. Speaker, I would also like to direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

Is it true that the vegetable grower applying for assistance if·he experienced a loss of 30 percent or greater in the year of 1968-69 has to first of all apply to the Manitoba Vegetable Commission and not to the Minister; and secondly, he has to be registered with the commission before he is eligible to receive any subsidy. MR. USKIW : Yes, this is correct. MR. SPEA KER: Has the honourable member a suppl ementary question? MR. BARKMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Minister explain in view of the latest potato referendum held some time ago, - and I believe it was sustained by the courts with a very small majority - why buyers or wholesale are told it is illegal for them to buy potatoes from anyone else other than through the commission. MR. USKIW: It's illegal to the extent that they're buying from registered growers. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. BUD SHE RMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister and ask him whether he had an opportunity to meet this week with the President of the Canadian Transport Commission when he was in Winnipeg and if so, did he have an opportunity to renew the efforts that he and many others of us have long pressed for a fairer deal for Winnipeg under the IATA schedules.

September 12 , 1969 683 MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, such a meeting did take place and there was discussion along the very line that has been mentioned by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. But inasmuch as the President of the Canadian Transport Commission gave us to understand that there was negotiation currently under way with a view to making changes in the air fare structure as between Winnipeg-Europe as opposed through the Gateway - that is through Montreal - there didn't seem to be any point to pressing the matter further because it seems that we will get some kind of favourable adjustment. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: A suppl ementary question to the First Minister. I wonder if he can indicate whether a discussion took place that in the event such arrangements were not finalized that there would be consideration given to the reduction of the domestic portion of an inter national flight so in fact the Federal Government could properly equate, by a reduction of the domestic rate, a fare rate which would actually take the actual cost per mile. 111:R. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if I understand the questio�- I think I do, I'm not sure - it would make it very difficult for a domestic air carrier to offer a reduction on the domestic leg of an international flight because then one would have the situation where Winnipeg Montreal for example, the air fare on the domestic leg of an international flight would be less than on a simple flight Winnipeg-Montreal and I don't think that that's a tenable arrangement. MR. SP IVAK: A supplenentary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the First Minister not aware that the province has already made this proposal and submission? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm well aware that the Province of Manitoba has made submissions, and I don't mind saying rather articulate submissions in the past, arguing that the lATA negotiations in the future try and make some changes so that we get rid of this aberration which has existed up to now where it costs more to travel Winnipeg-Europe than it does to travel Winnipeg-Montreal-Europe although the distance in air miles may be shorter. So that while I endorse the previous efforts, I don't see that I'm in a position now to say that there's any real hope of any actual changes made.

My honourable friend is certainly aware of how the lATA negotiations take place. They take place in camera and the Federal Govern ment, the Federal Department of Transport, the Canadian Transportation Commission, even to this day are not sure just what position is taken by the Canadian flag carriers, so therefore the whole thing is difficult to deal with. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: A suppl ementary, Mr. Speaker. Ev en though these negotiations do take place in camera, and even conceding that the adjustments that I referred to, Mr.

Speaker, may be forthcoming, would the Honourable First Minister not agree that where the -- (Inter jection) -- It's a question. Would the Honourable First Minister not agree that where the President of the Canadian Transport Commission is concerned and where other officials in the transportation field in eastern Canada are concerned, that continuous reminders and representations of this sort are very valuable? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. In other words I shall carry on that which I was doing as M. P. for Selkirk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

FROESE : A suppl ementary question to the subject matter just raised. Could a copy of the submission be tabled that was just mentioned? MR. SCHREYER: .... submission made by the Government of Manitoba to the Canadian Transport Commission? Well yes, I'll take it into consideration . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SP IVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Health and Soc ial Servic es. There are two questions that were asked in the House and were taken as notice and I wonder if he has the information on them.

The first was asked on September 2nd and it deals specifically with the amount of arrears of Medicare bringing it up-to-date at the time. The second was a question of the -- (Interjection) -- These questions were taken as notice, this is just a question of a matter of knowing whether the information is now available or will it be available soon. The other question was a question in connection with the percentage of utilization figures that were to be submitted to the House. I can read the specific questions and the first one is on Page 334, the second was on Page 26 4. MR.

GREEN: I believe that there was an answer given to the first question in terms of medical arrears, and if not, then there is an Order for Return on the Order Paper which will be answered very shortly . But I believe there was an answer to the first question. I gave

684 September 12, 1969 (MR . GREEN cont•d. ) ..... the arrears to the date that the question was put. If the member is su ggesting that another question was put as to arrears beyond that date, then that will be answered in the Order for Return. With regard to the percentage utilization, I am sorry I have not had that question answered yet and I' ll refer it to the department again. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, not really a su pplementary question but for the information of the Minister.

I'm sorry, the question that was asked in connection with the arrears is on Page 337 and his reply that he would take it as notice is on Page 338. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. JACK HARDY (St. Vital): ... .. question to the Minister of Ed ucation and I thank the Minister for the information he provided on the question I asked two or three nights ago, wherein the Minister indicated that there were approximately 1, 200 students registered in Manitoba universities from outside Manitoba.

I wonder if the Minister would be good enough to provide this House with the cost to the people of Manitoba to provide this education. HON. SAUL A, MILLER (Minister of Youth and Ed ucation)( Seven Oaks\: Mr. Speaker, I'd have to take that question as notice. I'm not sure that we could get the kind of breakdown the member wants, but I could come up with some sort of figure, a rough figure perhaps. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CR AIK: Mr.

Speaker, a couple of weeks ago I asked the Minister of Health and Social Service 'if he could provide information on the pollution of the Red River, particularly in respect of raw sewage dumping into the Red River. This was in connection with the state ment from the federal body that Winnipeg along with four or five other cities was rated as top because of 100 percent treatment of sewage . I think he indicated that he was going to bring back the information. Does he still intend to reply to it? MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I still intend to reply, and I might indicate to the honourable member now that it' s not true that we are 100 percent free from the dumping of raw sewage into the Red River, not at this point. That• s the long term obje ctive of the Metropolitan Corporation and significant strides have been made, but the actual continued dumping will be provided to the member of the House as indicated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minist er. MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, lest it be thought that I was trying to avoid the last question asked by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry with respect to what course of action the Government of Manitoba will take with respect to possible changes in the lA TA fare

schedule as it affects Winnipeg, my answ er in precise terms, Mr. Speaker, is as follows, that even though the Pres ident of the Canadian Transport Commis sion has indicated thai negotiations are currently under way with lATA and within lATA to bring air fares as it affects Winnipeg down to a more reasonable basis and level, despite that, the government of Manitoba will continue making representations until an actual announcement is made. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I thank the First Minister but I think it will be important to clarify, because there may be a misunderstanding as a res ult of the statements that were made earlier. Is it the government• s intention in the event that arrangements under the lATA agreement are not finalized- and that is a very difficult thing and we agree on that - is it the government' s intention to press the Federal Government for reduction of the domestic portion of international fares so that that discrimination at least can be alleviated in this respect. MR. SCHR EYER: Mr.

Speaker, the government of Manitoba would want to take the position such as that, because in the event that the lATA talks failed we would want to get some kind of countervailing adjustment in rates as they would affect Winnipegers, or people coming to Winnipeg from international points, but it seems to me that such an arrangement would be a very difficult one to justify. However, I shall take the member's suggestion under advisement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assini boia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assi niboia) : I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister the House Leader.

At one time he was of the opinion that the area around the Legislative Building should be named Riel Park. I wonder if he is still of the same opinion today. MR. PAULLEY: We are prepared to consider any name for the area around the Legis lative Buildings.

September 12, 1969 685 MR. PATRICK: What did he say? I couldn't hear the answer, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (L akeside) : Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. I recall in days past he has expressed some concern about the manner and the way flax is marketed in this province and this country. I note just recently a sudden rise in the price of flax. There seems to be some suggestion that there is some problem here, the price of flax rises in terms of boxcars available. The new crop is coming in and the price will probably drop.

In view of the Minister's past expressed interest that the marketing of flax should come nnder the Wheat Board, is the Minister prepared to, or can he undertake to look into the situation, the recent rise in the price of flax and report to the House. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Minister is prepared to undertake anything at any time. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. EN NS: This question is directed to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker.

It is my understanding that the First Minister has had recently discussions with some of the senior executives in our mining industry. -- (Interjection) -- Well, it was not a question referring to royalties, if that's the matter. I appreciate that that was underst andably the main subject under discussio n. My question was: at this discussion was the question of additional or changed or modified mining incentives under discussion? I would have to indicate to him that the mining incentives that have been in force heretofore have not proven all that succ essful in attracting new operating mines.

The Minister of Finance made that very clear, so was the matter of additional or new or exciting mining incentives part of the discussion? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend from Lakeside is a man of many and varied interests. According to the news this morning, he is interested much in the possibility of an early election. He is now interested in mining royalties and other things.

In reply to his question, I would say that the discussion which took place did cover among other things mining royalties, comparable levels of mining royalties in the different provinces in Canada and also the different programs of mining incentives, mining development incentives, infrastruc ture - that roads into areas of possible mining development, and the discussions were useful. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: It's a good question on this statement that the Honourable First Minister has made.

Can he give us any indication of what the difference would be, say, between the royalties brought in by the rates in B. C. compared to the rates in Manitoba? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I could draw a chart for my honourable friend, but perhaps he would be satisfied if I sent him one already prepared. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assinibo ia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable First Minister. Is it true that the government will decide the voting age by Order-in-Council and not by the decision of the Legislature? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe that's possible in any case. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital . MR. HARDY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Is the Minister in favour of retaining flax as a commodity on the futures market of the Winnipeg Grain Exchange? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, on that particular point, when my viewpoint is developed I will give him an answer at some future date. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): ... .. has not been developed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR.

ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Education - diversifying my questions . It has been some time since the Minister in the department has had the reports of the Boundaries Commission with reference to the Interlake. Can the Mi nister indicate - is there any thought being given by the department to implement certain of the boundary changes. There were minor boundary changes recommended that could be brought in at the end of the calendar year, or has the department taken any stand or is it under active consideration at this time? MR. MILLER: It is under active consideration.

I can only tell the member we will take less time with this than the former government did.

686 September 12, 1969 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: On the same subject, Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Education tell us under the proposed boundary division, or commission plan, which asks for larger areas, is it the intention when such areas should go into effect that a vote would be held even in those areas where they have a unitary administration? MR. MILLER: Would the member tell me which boundary commission plan he is talking about- the provisional one or the Interlake? MR. FROESE: That's the provisional one. MR.

MILLER: The provisional one is -- as I say, provisional plan hearings have to be held. A final recomm endation will then be made by the Boundary Commission to the govern ment after they have held full hearings in every division in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel, MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister of Youth and Education.

In light of the fact that the people of the Interlake were advised that a decision would be made in time for the municipal elec tions this fall, does he still then plan to have the decisions made on the boundaries so that the new boards can be elected on the new boundaries? MR. MILLER: I am not quite sure who made that pledge; it wan•t this government. When we took office we inherited the plan. We are looking at' it; there will be no action taken for this fall's elect ion. It is far too late to do tha t.

If it was the intention to act on the commission rec ommendations for this fall, I suggest it should have been done before July 15th. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, ... . be prepared to act more rapidly than the previous government? MR. MILLER: You have been sitting on it for two years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry, MR. SHERMAN : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable House Lea der of the government and ask him whether the absence from the Chamber of the Honourable Member for Cresc entwood this morning would indicate that the hor,ourable member may be down town buying himself a tie. ORDERS OF THE DAY HON. SAUL CH ERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of He alth and Social Services, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHERNIACK: .. .. . we would finish up the supplementary wi th the Minister of Health and Social Services. There is just the two items, Resolutions 6 and 7 on the supple mentaries to complete them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Supplementary Estimates - the Department of Health and Social Services. Resolution 6. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, .. .. . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, this appropriation is intended to facilitate an increase of the present allowanc es under the Social Services Allowance to bring the Manitoba allowanc es into line with those presently being paid in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta. I might indicate, Mr. Speaker, that members in the House will be quite aware of the increases in the cost of living that have naturally taken place during the past several years, and I would also indicate the last times when some of these allowa nces were increased.

For instance, food was last revised in April of '67. The members will be aware of the price of increases in the basics such as milk, bread, and other matters since that date. This is almost 2 1/2 years since the last revision. Children's clothing rates were last revised in March of •64; shelter was last revised in April of '67; household and personal needs, April '63; comfort allowa nces for blind recipients and ambulent persons in institutions in April of 1966; and I can indicate, Mr.

Speaker , that there has been no revision that I am aware of that are later than April '67 on the broad - there may have been some isolated ones.

September 12, 1969 687 (MR. GREEN cont•d. ) The new appropriation is intended to make up for those problems. It was being considered by the previous administration and no doubt would have been brought in in any event. It's merely consistent with the normal increases in the cost of living to all peoples, and these people who are on social assistance have the problems that we know of and this revision is therefore required. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. WEIR: 1\lr.

Chairman, I don't propose to argue or debate it and I am not opposed to having social allowances struck in terms of the cost of living in ?\Ianitoba. I don't know as I accept the theory of bringing Manitoba into line with Saskatchewan and Alberta. I think this is a particular Manitoba area and Manitoba costs should apply, not Saskatchewan and Alberta costs, and Manitoba conditions apply rather than Saskatchewan and Alberta.

So I don't intend to carry on a discussion but I noticed my honourable friend the Minister of Health indicated it was to bring it into line with Saskatchewan and Alberta and I would be much more interested if the realistic levels in Manitoba were attained. MR. GREEN : Well, Mr.

Chairman, fortuitously the levels that are required in Manitoba happen to be consistent with the levels that are now being paid in Saskatchewan and Alberta, and as a matter of fact, I am quite sure that everybody in the House would probably agree that even the levels that we are bringing them up to still provide a very very modest type of living accommodation for this unfortunate group of people who I am sure do not relish the activity of receiving money from social assistan ce rather than being in the mainstream of economic life.

So I merely gave that comparison so that members would know where we stand, but the levels are certainly "realistic" for the Province of Manitoba as well as being consistent with Alberta and Saskatchewan. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge); Mr. Chairman, perhaps I misunderstood the Honourable Minister but I thought he said that under the Medicare premium now we were going to be in line with Saskatchewan. Is this true or was it the Social Services you were talking about. MR. GREEN: It was social allowances that I was referring to. MRS. TRUEMAN: Yes, thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, if we take a look at the general estimates we find that under social allow ances we have an item of $16 . 7 million. Here we are proposing to increase it by a million. This would roughly be about six percent increase. Is that going to be general across the board and is that six percent correct when I make that generalization? Then in connection with the social allowances, I am not quite sure but at some time we had trouble with widows having no families of a certain age getting allowances from the department.

Is there any change in this respect or is it just a general increase that we are making across the board? MR. GREEN: .... been finalized as yet, but I would advise the honourable member that the total budget for 1969-70 at present was $21, 251, 954. 00. The total increase that we are projecting would be between 10 and 15 percent, and I believe that the honourable member is perhaps leaving out the aged and inform in nursing homes for which there is present ly a $6 million appropriation.

As far as the individual person who is receiving the allowances, I am hoping that the type of individual that is described by my honourable friend will be the type of individual who benefits most by the type of increases that we are proposing . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 6-4 (±)(1) - - passed; Resolution 6 -- passed. Resolution 7-9 - -. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WE IR: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister .. . to make on this resolution? MR. GREEN : Mr. Chairman, I would have thought that the resol ution speaks for itself.

The amount of Medicare premiums, the amount that the Medicare premiums was supposed to have received for the budget was roughly 29 to 30 million dollars. Because we have operated a certain portion of the year on Medicare premiums the amount that is necessary to make up the balance between the amounts that the premiums we'll have received and the amount that was budgetted for payment to the Health Services Corporation is $11 million. That would be the amount that is being sought in this appropriation. It'll be a figure that is very much the

688 September 12, 1969 (MR. GREEN cont'd.) ..... same as the figure which is now budgetted for in the current estimates as payable to the Hos pital Commission - not the same figure, but the same type of figure. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Chairman, I'll be happy to leave any comments I have on Medicare until we come to regular estimates and other opportunities like that, but at this stage and in relation to some of the questions that I have been asking and asking for a purpose before the Orders of the Day, I think I might like to say a word or two now in relationship with Denticare that is being carried out by the Dental Association if press reports are accurate.

And if I can interpret what is coming from the other side of the House in terms of pharmaceutical and extensions at some point in time of the Medicare plan, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be advisable for the department to be working fairly closely with the Dental Association.

If the government has no intentions now, either under an option, a voluntary option under the Medicare plan for inclusion within the Medicare plan, if they felt that at some time they were going to, the type of plan that the Dental Association got started I would think would be fairly important in terms of the department and the people of Manitoba and the co-ordination there, and I would think it would receive the enthusiastic endorsation of the Dental Association to have the Department of Health take an interest in it even if they aren't a part of it at this point in time.

I just wonder if it wouldn't be wise to make sure that the type of plan that was established was one that would be in the interests and it should be there.

Quite frankly, if the government has any intention in the not-too-distant future of going ahead, I would think they should let the Dental Association know, or the private insurers know, because the development of a plan like this is bound to cost a lot of money, the exercises that have to go through the actuarial work of putting it together, and if it is later included and these people are opted-out in some fashion within a short period of time before there's been an opportunity of amortizing the cost of the development of the plan, it becomes I think relatively unfair in terms of the companies them selves, If they have had to amortize over too short a. period it's made a plan too costly for the people who are going to take

part in the plan and may even create the opportunity that the plan might fail. When you include the cost of the development of it, and amortized in a. short period of time, it might very well be in a position of having the plan fail and not get off the ground, which makes it more difficult for the next group of people that are trying. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I appreciate my honourable friend's concern and perhaps I again did not come through clearly to him this morning - and I don't blame him, I blame myself. This morning's question was: Have you yet met with them?

And I answered the question that I haven't, and lest there be any misundestanding I didn't say that I would. However, by the same token, I didn't say that I wouldn't. We are concerned; we are going to -- I assure the honourable member that his points are well taken. We don't want to be involved in something which would make it very difficult to adjust to serve the public need to the best satisfaction, and I appreciate his suggestions in that connection. We will certainly consider what he has said, take it under advisement, and we will consider meeting with the dental profession on this plan.

I don't want the honourable member to get the impression that I have no intention of meeting with them. All I wanted to get through to him this morning was that I did not undertake to meet with them. I'll consider whether the remarks that he has made and the other considerations of the department make it necessary for us to do this. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, Pm glad to have the clarification because the Minister certainly left an extreme doubt in my mind during the question period whether he even thought it was a good idea to meet with them or not.

I think a reading of Hansard would justify me in, you know, taking from it that there was certainly a good deal of doubt in your mind as to whether it would be advantageous for the department or yourself to even discuss the matter with them, and that if they wanted to, they were completely free to head off in their own direction and develop a plan, notwithstanding the fact that the government may within 12 months, 24 months, .36 months, have some plans of their own, and it's my view that a better co-ordination than that would be in the interests of the people of Manitoba.

One other question I'd like to ask is with the change in premium structure that we• re going to have. The original premium had beenestimated co ver the gro wth in medi ca l cost s for at least two years , hopefully ma ybe longer than two years but at least two years. Can the Minister indicate what kind of a growth we might expect in this vote to maintain the premium or would it be the intention to increase the premium annually to look after the growth in the medical field?

September 12, 1969 689 MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, we haven't seen the practice which members of the Opposition are obviously anxious to see and which we are anxious to assess with sufficient degree of time to know just how the amount of money is going to pay for the sen1ces that are to be paid for under the plan. The premium that was set did anticipate financing the plan over a period of years with the upward utilization or upward costs being calculated in the premium.

With a system that is paid for in the manner in which we have paid for it, it's not possible for me to say, except from the point of view that I have always said, that I would prefer the costs to be paid out of general revenues than out of premiums. Therefore, when we are talking about future increases, my personal bias, and what I believe is the government's bias with regard to paying for increases in the future, would be weighted in favour of revenues that are obtained on a more equitable system of taxation than the premium. MR.

WEIR: That's as far as we get this morning then in saying that the government would have a bias. They don't have a firm and declared policy that the premiums will stay at this level and any increases will be found through other means of taxation. The government will await and see what happens in terms of price increases and in terms of increased utiliza tion and they'll exercise their bias if they still consider it to be the right thing. They're not prepared to make a decision at this stage of the game. MR. GREEN: Well, that's correct.

I think that my answer should be an indication of where the government wants to go. It would, I hope, exercise its bias in favour of collecting increased costs other than through a premium tax. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Honourable Minister could tell us- this 11 million, will any part of that be used to assist or accommodate prese'J.t delinquencies that have been built up over this period of time?

Will the normal way of taking care of those outstanding premiums be dealt with as proposed earlier and that the municipalities will have to absorb a certain amount of those losses? Maybe you could comment on that. In connection with the matter raised by the Leader of the Opposition, have the dentists given any indication that they are interested in such a proposal and have any proposals on their part been put forward to the government? MR. GREEN: To answer the first question, Mr.

Chairman, the government will regard premiums owing up until the date, and indeed beyond the date of November 1st, which there will still be a premium to pay on Medicare as an account receivable, and it will use all avenues available to enforce the collection of the accounts receivable.

We are not going to, and I want to make it perfectly plain, there will be - tile re is no, is more accurate - there is no forgive ness of premiums that are owing to the government up until the reduced premium and there will be no forgiveness of the future premiums, of the reduced one in present government policy, so that no municipality should rely on this money as being used to do that.

With regard to the second portion of my honourable friend's question, there has been no communication with me concerning the dental profession's proposal or suggestion which appeared in the newspaper with respect to the operation of a dental insurance program. I believe the honourable member should be aware that dental insurance to my knowledge is sold. One can buy it today. The only difference that the dentists propose is that they want to arrange for a plan of their own. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr.

Chairman, concerning this item which covers the reduction in the cost of premiums, I would like to point out that under the previous government there were 55, 000 people who were receiving their Medicare services free. Now these people also received dental care, drugs and prosthetic appliances, whatever they needed. They had complete service, these 55, 000 people, and in the main estimates under No. 4 (f)( 6) there is 3 1/2 million provided for this. Now this is discrimination, and I approve of it because it's in favour of the people who need it.

Now I think that when you speak of an equitable distri bution of costs that you also should talk about an equitable distribution of services. We all know that there is another five percent, or perhaps it's 10 percent- I would even go so far as perhaps another 25 percent- for whom a major expense concerning health is a disaster.

Now I just don't see how, as long as this next group of people that we refer to usually as medically indigent are still without proper dental care, without the means of getting the expensive drugs they need and so on, I just don't see how it can be justified that my Medicare premium has been reduced and these people who have need are still without the services they need.

690 September 12, 1969 MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't rightly understand the honourable member's position, and again perh:>.ps that's my fault. The fact is that the premium that was previously in force - and which still is in force today - took care of the cost of providing medical care to the 55, 000 people that the honourable member is talking about. The present plan will also take care of that cost. There will be no change in the services that these 55, 000 people will be receiving, The honourable member says that this is a discrimination in that they receive services that others don•t receive.

That's correct. This discrimination has been recognized, Mr. Chairman, because they constitute the very bottom economic group in our society. I think that probably society recognizes that somehow they have, either through social blame or individual blame, they have not found themselves in the mainstream of society. We recognize that and those particular needs are provided at social expense on that basis. This is not particular discrimination with regard to those services. These people are a particular group with regard to all services which are paid for at social expense.

I'm sure that they, as much as the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, would rather it were not so. MRS. TRUE MAN : Mr. Chairman, the Honourable the Minister and I are in complete agreement on this. Now, we•ve looked after that 55, 000. Now I'm talking about perhaps the next 55, 000 and these people still are not able to get the care they need, and wouldn't it be better to spend the resources, financial resources and the health resources that we have on bringing these people up to a proper level of care rather than reducing premiums for people like us? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the honourable member that she need have no fear. I hope for her sake, as well as for mine, that her particular tax for the Medicare program will not go down, it will go way up, so she needn't worry about her saving any money on this particular tax. I'm inclined to think that that is not going to be the case, and if that has been a problem to her then I wish to disabuse her of the problem immediately. That• s not going to be a problem.

With regard to the people on the economic level immediately above the welfare group, it's been my position, and it's been the position of the people of this group, that the best way of providing a social need is through a universal program and that• s why we have been in favour of that type of program. I would hope that the universality in the provision of these types of services will be an increasing thing and that• s the best way of solving my honourable friend's problem in my opinion. It is not the best way to solve the problem of saying that we• re going to deal with a needs group.

I don't think that society responds well to that kind of action. I am indicating that they respond well to universal programs. MRS. TRUE MAN : Mr. Chairman, I think that we might point out here that the mandate under which this government serves represents 22 percent of the popular vote and I don't think you can say that the general public endorses universality rather than a service based on need. And further, Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege perhaps, I'm not certain, is the Honourable Minister suggesting that on my indemnity of $3, 600 I'm going to have a further income tax? MR.

GREEN: ..... that the honourable member is, either through herself or through herself and her husband, in a category where her taxes will go up even without counting the $3,600 indemnity. And in doing so, Mr. Chairman, I'm really wishing her well; I'm not wishing her ill. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, in this vote that we are just discussing, this $11 million vote, has the government taken into consideration the item that•s just referred to, (f)(6), on the general estimates of Social Allowance Medicare of $3 1/2 million?

Would the vote that we• re discussing now be 14 1/2 if it wasn't for that, and has it been offset by that amount? And then too, the item Social Allowance Medicare, is that the same type or is the service under that more extensive than what we are offerLng under our general Medicare? MR. GREEN: I just missed the last portion of the honourable member's question. MR. FROESE: The Social Allowance Medicare, is it more extensive than what we're offering under our general Medicare to the province? MR. GREEN: My impression, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Medicare services to people on social allowances will be the same as it was before and will be the same as the medical services that my honourable friend receives. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights.

September 12, 1969 691 MR. SPIV AK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have listened with interest to the explanations given by the Honourable Minister. I think that it's necessary to at least record, or at least place on the record the actual facts that we have in front of us, and possibly make some supposi tions which the Honourable Minister may or may not want to confirm. One is that obviously between $17 million and $18 million is going to be paid in this year, into the basic plan of the $28 million to $30 million that's required.

The second is that there were two options open to the government when they were prepared to reduce the Medicare premiums to the level they had, that they could have eliminated it completely or they could have realized the amount of money of $3 1/2 million to $4 million that the premiums are going to realize annually in the year and for this portion, assuming that they're going to follow through.

I think that-- and they would appear to be pretty clear in this, and it's obvious there has to be, not withstanding the particular bias and the wishes that the Honourable Minister has expressed that the Medicare premium will not go up, that there must be very serious consideration being given to them, to that possibility as being very real and very necessary in the years to come.

And I think again, without attempting to in any way present a picture to the public that would not be the actual situation a year or two years from now- assuming the government is still in po wer and that's just an assumption at this time- it would seem to me that it's necessary to indicate pretty clearly to the people of Manitoba that the basic reason for not withdrawing the Medicare premium entirely and placing on general revenues - because the amount is really insignificant in relation to the total amount of expenses and additional revenue that• s going to be raised- that it's probably likely that Medicare premiums are going to rise whether additional service or not.

Now the Minister is shaking his head, and if this is the case and this is his answer, then I would suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that it would have been probably better and wiser, if the reduction was going to be the percentage reduction that has occurred, to reduce it completely. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): It would seem that the debate is being extended in this department, and before we leave it I would like your decision as to whether we're going to be able to debate this under the Minis ter• s salary as was generally agreed, or do we finish it now? MR.

GREEN: .. .. . permit an interruption. I would not refuse to debate it now, but I would ask honourable members to save the main part of their questions for the estimates, which we'll definitely get to, and if the honourable member would indulge me in this regard I would appreciate it. I'm not insisting on it but I would certainly hope that he could wait until the main estimates.

I do think that I should say, with regard to the Honourable Member for River Heights, that it is entirely not correct to assume that the go vernment is intending to increase medical premiums by virtue of not having wiped out the premium entirely. Many considerations went into the reasons for the rates -- the amount of the decrease, and what he should not assume is that the medical premiums will be increased. MR.

SPIVAK: Well on this one point, I would be very interested for the Honourable Minister to explain to the House the consideration which allows such a small amount of Medicare premiums to be collected from the public. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I don•t intend to talk about all the considerations that entered into this particular decision. I said before, and I repeat now, that taking all the matters into consideration including the dates and the amounts of money and other things - and I don• t intend to be specific - we, in our wisdom in deciding a government policy, decided that that would be the level of reduction.

I merely say that the honourable member should not assume (although I say to him that he shouldn't, he could really assume whatever he likes) that the premium will go up by virtue of the nature of the reduction. MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Chairman, I find it very strange the Honourable Minister has indicated that there were certain considerations in which- - were responsible for a policy; the policy is an important one, one in which all the people of Manitoba have a vital interest, one in which I think there has been expressed concern.

I think that there is within the province certain confusion as to why the premiums were not entirely eliminated. There was a commitment- or at least not a commitment, there was a statement made by the First Minister at the N. D. Y. Convention that the premiums would be eliminated. It has not been. And the amount to be raised is so insignificant and there are those who will question even the fact that the cost of raising that money should be a consideration and which would have been responsible for elimina ting it, and I think that the Minister really has a responsibility to the House to express in some

692 September 12, 1969 (MR . SPIV AK cont'd. ) ..... way the considerations that led to this policy decision. I'm not quarreling with his right to make a policy decision. You're the government. But certainly we on this side, and certainly the people of Manitoba, are entitled to know what policy consid erations were resp onsible for allowing such an insignificant amount to be collected on medical insurance premiums rather than eliminated, once you were prepared to reduce it to the extent of 88 percent.

And unless he's prepared to give us on this side some consideration or some indication of the consideration, I must say that the supposition that Medicare premiums will probably go up has to be considered as a very real supposition, and I say that not to just meet the argument of that supposition, because that isn' t the important thing, but because this is a major policy decisi on, that there is really an obligation to try and to explain to this House the reasons and considerations for the policy decision that was made. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman, may I first say that one of the considerations which the honourable member raised - and that is the cost of collecting the premium - was resolved on the basis that there is no extra cost in collecting the premium. The premium is a combined premium, unless the entire hospital and medical premium were eliminated.

In other words, unless we went down another $99. 60, and I don' t know that my honourable friend is sugges ting that; it' s certainly a consideration, but unless we went down a further $99. 60, the cost of collecting the premium would be the same, and I might say this to the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, that the combined premium is collected, so there is no problem of billing for a 55 cent premium a month. With regard to the other matters, my honourable friend is entitled to assume what he wants to assume.

The things that were considered were the amount of revenue that would have to be picked up, the availability of other forms of taxation at the present time, the amount by which a tax could be reduced in one year, the st eps that possibly would have to be taken in the future, the general consideration of all ques tions which are raised by the virtue of making this kind of a change. It's a 27 to 28 million dollar change. All of the things that affect that kind of a change were considered. Some weighed more heavily on some people, some weighed more heavily on other people.

The honourable member knows full well how Cabinet and government and caucus resolve these decisions . Some considerations which I may refer to may not have moved the entire group at all, but all of the factors which come to the fore when discussi ng a 27 to 28 million dollar shift in taxes were considered and that is the amount that we arrived at, and we can' t be any more definitive than that except to say, as I said earlier, that our bias, that the government bias is to collect monies by more equitable means of taxation than a premium tax. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I've lis tened again with interest to what the Honourable Minister has said. There' s no doubt that the Honourable Minister is a good advocate and there's no doubt that he has prese nted, in a very real and forceful manner, a position which would be similar to the kind of position he would express in court if he was defending a client.

But nevertheless, he still has not given us the answ er, because realis tically we are only talking about $3 l/2 million to $4 million that will be raised by premiums in any given year, which is a very small amount of money in relation to the total program, and all the reasons that have been given still do not take away from what I consider to be the only supposition that can be undertaken because there's no other just ification, that there was a very real consideration on the part of members on the other side at a given time to raise it.

He may hide it by raising it with addi tional services to be able to work that out, but it would seem to me it' s quite clear, because you haven' t given us any answer other than to present an argument which would sound like a good argument but really it si gnifies nothing; that in effect what we have really done, or what you have really done is to reduce it 88 percent to allow the 12 percent to be collected on the basis that that 12 percent can be opened up and can be increased when the revenues of the province require it. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I think the honourable member for being so complimentary about my argument. All I can say to him is if that' s the only assumption that he can make, then he doesn' t have a very good imagination, because there are many many other assum ptions that are available. MR. CHAIRMAN : Re solution 7. 9. --passed. Resolution 7 --pas sed. That completes the supplementary est imates . We now return to the Department of Mines and Natural Resources and the first item of the Minister 's salary. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HEN DERSON (P embina): I hesit ate to rise again, Sir, I've already said

September 12, 1969 693 (MR. HENDE RSON cont• d. ) . .... something in this debate, but the remarks from the Honour able Member from Churchill were somewhat disturbing to me. He made a very fine speech for the north. There's been many fine speeches made for the north in connection with the minerals and their oil, but last night he even went to talking about water which they may have to pipe uphill. Now I don' t want to elaborate on that, but we have wa ter in the south that' s going across into the U. S. A. right now, which could be utilized. I spoke on this before.

And at this time, to be talking so much about the north, to me personally it se ems that it' s being overdone. And he even compared the north and the south in connection with industrial develop ment relations. The people in the south are contributing a great deal in the many forms of taxes, and to keep piling on more at the expense of the north, to me is like killing the goose that' s laying the golden egg, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHE RMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to say two or three things about the es timates at the present time in this particular department, but first I would like to congratulate the Minister on his as sumption of his office and his pres entation of his estimates, and wish him well in his future course.

I find that the estimates as presented and tabled cer tainly reflect an imaginative and a comprehensive program of mineral and natura1 resource develop ment for our province, but I must confess that I'm concerned at this stage that the four pages devoted to these estimates do not specificall y make reference to the subject of pollution, which is a field in which I'm especially int erested.

I concede that the operative aspects of pollution may certainly be implicit in many of the items listed on the estimates and may be covered in terms of the sums we are asked to vote at this time, but I do cite for the record the fact that specific reference to pollution as such, as a subject and as a problem, is not made at this stage of our consideration of the departmental spending program, and I would like to make a point or two about that subject. The Mi nister would like to ask a question. HON. LE ONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources)(Br andon East ): I wonder if I could interrupt.

My understanding is that the pollution control in Manitoba is centred under the Cle an Environment Commission. That is the agency which takes a compre hensive look at our pollution problems and the Clea n Environment Commission reports to the Minister of Health and Social Services. Conseq uently, I would imagine this is why you don' t have detailed estimates on pollution under Mines and Natural Resources. MR. SHE RMAN: Well, I thaiLll: the Minister for pointing that out and I'l l take your direction, Mr. Ch airman.

Is the Minister suggesting that these are not the proper estimates under which to discuss the subject of pollution? Is the Minister suggesting that they should be discussed under the estimates of another department and not under the estimates of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources? This subject? MR. EV ANS: I would think so. I'm not trying to indicate that I personally am not interested in the problem of pollution and there is a member of my department who is on the Clean Environment Commission, but the Commission is directly responsible to the Minister of Health and Social Serv ices .

You may recall when questions of pollution have been raised in the question period, it' s the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services who answ ers them. So I think this is the place to discuss it, I would think, until such time as there is an administrative change made, although I'm not suggesting that such is being contemplated. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Minister is correct, namely that you would be advised to make your comments during the Department of Health. MR. SHER MAN: Well, I'm prepared to stand by that advisory and that direction, Mr.

Chairman, but I would point out that, speaking for myself and I may have been out of order all this time, but all my questions on the subject of pollution have been directed to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and have been answered by him, and within the last two weeks I asked him about the meetings that were projected here between himself, or at least representatives of the administration, and the federal Minister of Energy, Mr.

Lang, with a view to examining the initiatives taken by the Federal Government in the pollution field and the response and reaction of the Government of Manitoba, and at that time the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources answered my question and answ ered it lucidly and expansively, so I've been operating under the as sumption that he was responsible in this field. However, I'm prepared to stand by the advisory and I'll withhold my remarks until we study the depart mental estimates for Health and Social Services. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for As siniboia.

694 September 12, 1969 1\IR. PATRIC K: Mr. Chairman, I just have a few points that I wish to deal with and that is particularly on game snd fish. I think that this department is probably of great importance to many people in Manitoba because, after all, when everything is said and done it' s a heritage that nature has given us in this province and I think we• re fortunate in having such wonde rful forests and many lakes, a lot of water and plenty of game.

But I think we must be careful to see that we conserve it, protect it for many of the generations to come, for our children and for their children, so I would like more emphasis probably placed on conservation. As far as the game is concerned itself, I find no quarrel with the manner in which this is looked after, with probably a few exceptions.

I think that we should remember one thing; that is, in order to maintain our numbers of game there are a few matters that we should keep in mind, and the first one is probably predator control, systematic harvesting and use of the game ia bitat, and for that I recommend a fee.

You will recall last winter the member then for Turtle Mountain, I believe, brought pictures to this House where it showed there were deer dying in the deep snow and I believe he had some pictures where the deer were chased by wolves, and so these matters at that time, I do n' t know if they had prompt attention from the department or not, but this is an area that I feel we should really probably look into.

When I say "feed" I also have in mind that we should probably sow some areas and see that we don't get competition from do mestic animals because it is well known that a domestic animal will usually chase the deer away from the pasture. I also feel that if we have these areas, that they should not be adjacent to farmers so that the wild animals will not interfere too much with the farm crops and so on. I do n' t know if this is done at the present time; I believe it is done in some other jurisdict ions that I have information, and perhaps the Minister can look into it.

I think there is one other point that is very important and that is enforcement of the law, and I was happy to see that for the coming waterfowl season that there will be more strict enforcement in respect to some of our game, and particularly in this case, your ducks. But I would agree with one point, that I think there should be an area allowed for two species of wildlife and that is the canvasback and the redhead.

This was the policy before so I believe it is probably still in force unless the Department has changed it, because I know even a pretty good hunter will probably sometimes mistake a redhead for probably a pintail or something else, and when he gets the game he realizes it's a species that he wasn' t supposed to bag, then he leaves it behind and there is wastage.

I know at the present time he is allowed, I believe, one mistake and I think it is a good policy because we have had some good experience only a year ago when we had an early season for ducks except you weren' t allowed to shoot mallards except some two weeks later, and I think that there were many mallards shot during that season. I think it was a wrong policy of the government because there were many birds shot and left in the marsh to waste, so I hope it doesn't happen again.

I think if the season starts it should be the same for all species at the same time, and the policy of having at least one misjudgment in respect to the redheads and the canvasbacks, I think is a good policy and I am not trying to say or advocating that these two species shoUld be shot, but I think that an error in judgment is a good thing so that the birds are not left behind. I also appreciate the fact that there will be more enforcem ent of the law in that respect. I und erstand the RCMP plus more game wardens will be hired for this coming season.

As far as the predator control is concerned, I wonder what the government has done during the past year. Perhaps the Minister can tell us, and what is the government planning to do because I am quite familiar with some areas of the Province of Manitoba and in some parts where there were deer really plentiful, in great numbers, at the present time there's just none in that area, and I am particularly speaking to the east side of Lake Manitoba around AloEs a and. up in that area.

It used to be an area where there were many herds and a great number of deer, and in the last, I'd say perhaps five, six or ten years, it continually has been depleted and my information is that there are more timber wolves in that area, there are more coyotes, and perhaps this is the reason why there isn' t the game that we had in this area. Perhaps the Minister can check into this or have some kind of investigation or wildlife research done in this respect.

I just briefly looked at the report - I'm not sure it states how many timber wolves were taken, shot last year or taken by bait from the areas that they are a nuisance to other game, and perhaps if he can tell us where we can find it I think it would be good information to the members of the House.

September 12, 1969 (MR. PATRICK cont• d. ) 695 The other point I'd like to raise in respect to last year's elk seaso n in the Riding Mountain area.

I know that many of the farmers sur rounding the park were not too happy because not too many of them were able to get drawn for their licens es, and it did present some serious problems because the people that did have permits to hunt, you have to cross private property to get alo:J.g the park to the areas where the elk are, and in many cases the farmers took strong objection and said, "Well, why should I let you cross my property or be able to hunt when I applied for a hunting license, or a permit for elk, and I wasn1 t able to receive one, and we have all the people from the city coming out and taking the animals which I had to feed all summer or all fall, and in more than one way have contributed to a great extent for wildlife in the way of crop and grain losse s, " and so on, and I would say these farmers cert ainly have some argument and some jus tification.

So perhaps -- I don' t think it affects too many farmers surrounding the whole park, and perhaps maybe they could have some better chance or an opportunity of a draw than the rest of the people, because I don• t feel it affects too many farmers surrounding the park, perhaps a hundred, so maybe they should have some priority. I don• t know how many permits the department will allow - if it' s 600 or 700, so I should say that there be some preference given to the farmers surrounding the park, just the first half mile or whatever it is, and then they should have a better opportunity to get their permit.

Another thing, this would be better cooperation and they would not be so incensed through the fact that the elk had to some extent destroyed their crops and here they were not able to hunt elk during the elk seaso n and you have other people.

So I would really like to see the Minister check into this because I know it presented great problems last seaso n and, as you recall, the weather was such that I don' t believe in the first portion of the season anyone -- or I would mention there were very few elk taken, if any, and then the seaso n was extended, as you know, later in the wintertime when it was cold and there were some elk taken, but by that time I believe we had a very high snowfall in the area and there was snow somewhere approximately three to four feet and it was difficult to get into the bush, so I don' t know what were the results of the elk season last year; but I would like to hear the honourable minister tell us what number of elk were taken during the last season.

I notice there is a season this year and perhaps if he can check and allow the farmers some better opportunities to get their permits , I think it would be better for all concerned as far as the other hunters. My other point that I wish to make, Mr. Chairman, is fishing, and particularly I want to refer to our angling of our sport fish particularly, and I see in the report that our receipts from angling licenses have increased from 283, 000 to 30 2, 000 for the year 1966-67, so it is an indication that there are more and more anglers and sport fishermen every season and every year. I think we are fortunate.

We have many desirable species of fish in Manitoba such as trout, brook, rainbow, bass, perch, jack and pickerel, with which many of the members are familiar, and perhaps these are the mo st popular fish and species that you will find anywhere. I believe that we have done a reasonably good job of stocking our lakes until the pres ent time, but I believe there are hundreds and thousands more fishermen and sports people who are fishing.

They come from thousands of miles from the States and from other parts of Canada because Manitoba is a good area for sport fishing, and I would predic t that it will not take too long before we will run into a shortage of fish unless we increase the stocking of our lakes with fish, because I know from my own experience, I find that any lake that you can go, even if it' s in the middle of the week or on a weekend, you will find quite a few boats on the lake and you haven' t as much, or the fisherman haven' t the same success of catching as many fish as they had perhaps five years ago, so it would appear that there is deplet ion of fish in many of our lakes and, with the more fisherman, that you have that each year.

I would like to see that our lakes would be stocked with more fish and this program sort of increased. I think it is perhaps, we ll, encouragement for our tourist industry as well to have many people come and fish in our wonderful lakes, and I think that we should put greater emphasis on this as far as stocking our lakes are concerned.

I have jus t a couple more points that I'd like to bring up at this time, and one is, I know we had a bear hunting season this spring and I don• t know if there is one this fall or not, but I understand that the bear has been a great nuisance in the Whiteshell area this whole summer and it has come to my attention that in one of the lakes, I believe it' s Breret on, a bear had found himself in a store during daylight, had come in through the back door - the door was open -

696 September 12, 1969 (M R. PATRJCK cont• d. ) ..... and had to be destroyed, and of course all the food had to be taken out and destroyed as well.

But it has been in the last summer particularly, I think, that many cot tage owners have had problems wit h bears coming to the camps and even cases where many children were scared, so I feel that perhaps the branch, if it had done a proper research - is there a shortage of food or is there too many of these animals for the amount of food they raise in the area, and if there are too many bears - then I think it would be proper to have a season, and I think there would be more bear taken out if the season were perhaps in the fall instead of spring, because you don' t have too many people who get too excited or interested about going bear hunting in, say, May or June, but if the season was held in the fall I am sure that there would be more animals, more bear taken out, and this is what we have to do if they are too plentiful.

The other point I'd like to make is on our upland game, and I would like to know wh'lt kind of wildlife investigation the departm e!lt is doing in respect to our game such as prairie chicken and sharp-tailed grouse and ruffed grouse and so on, and perhaps Hungarian partridg es. At one time Manitoba was the area for Hung arian partri dges, and today you just have a difficult time of finding any, and it seems the same thing wit h your other species, sharp-tailed and ruffe d grouse.

You don1 t have to go too far out of Manitoba - Wapella, Saskatchewan, is probably 30 or 50 miles across from the Manitoba border - and you will probably get into one of the greatest chicken country and Hungarian partridge country that you will ever find, and I would like to know what is the pro gram that the Saskatchewan Government is carrying out but Manit oba is not doing, so that we can preserve and have more of these species in this area.

I know that the branch probably does carr y out some wild laws investigation in these areas, but I would like to know how extensive and to what extent because we have not the game. upland game, that we did have some years back, and it appears to me that in some areas of Saskatchewan, the southern part of Saskatchewan that I am ac qua inted wi th, there is plentiful upland game birds, particularly the Hungarian partridg es. I wondered if the Minister - I know he is a new minister and perhaps he may have some new policies - if he1 d ever given any thoug;'1t to private hunting preserves.

I know this is qui te popular in places in the United State s. I don't know if there are any in Ca �da but a preserve for hunting of pheasants or perhaps wild turkeys, I know that it would be a private enterpr ise where people wished to raise pheasants in a large area and then charge a fee - so much for any O'le who <Vants to hunt. There would probably be a limit to how many pheasants he can take out. I think this would be a good thing because we would be able to have more game and game that• s not plent iful now and it' s not even hunted in Manitoba.

These are perhaps a few points that I wish to make at this time except for just one more, and that is in respect to the sale of Cr own lands . This has been brought to my attention on many occasions, that many farmers in some areas who ?Vished to extend their uni ts, enlarge their farms, an:l this is perhaps in the mar ginal farming area, in so'll e instances they are still una ble to buy Crown land to expand their, say, cattle operation, and so I wonder what is the policy of the departmen.t.

I know a few years ago they were not able to buy, I believe there has been some loosening up and extension in this field, but perhaps the Minister can tell us to what extent this has bee n done . I believe when there is a fairly good uni t, a larg e unit where the farmer is operating a very economical operation and needs more land for expansion, I cannot see why we should not allow him to be able to purchase any Cr own land for expansion of his operation.

These are just a few points that I wish to make, and I cert ainly would be interested in what the Minister has to say to this House insofar as wildlife in vestigations are concerned into the decline of some of our perhaps upland game, and even waterf owl game is concerned in Manitoba. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Member for Rock La '�e. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake) : Well, Mr. Chairman, first of all I'd like to co m mend the Minister on the port folio that he' s been elevated to, and to represe!lt in the Govern ment of Manitoba.

At the outset I'd like to say that I believe that he is representing a port folio that is one of great impor tance, and I think as we look to the future it is going to have greater importance as the years go by. I'm not going to be lengthy in my comments because there are just a few things that I wanted to bring to the attention of the Minister which concerns my constituency, but I do want to make a comment first on the Wildlife Departme'lt and say to him that the wildlife is connected wit h the agricultural community of my constituency and for this reason farmers in that area have

September 12, 1969 697 (MR . EINARSON co'lt• d. ) .•.. become very int erested in the preser vation of wil dlife and through forming organizations through the Wildlife Federation and in turn wo r!<ing with the department. There has been some difficulty in the past with the wildlife organizations working with the Director, but rec ently there has been muc.!l improvement in this regard and I would hope that the Minister would be able to continue the g0od relationship with those people who are involved in the preser vation of wildlife. The other matter that I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, is the problem that we have in the lake of Roek Lake its elf, and I'd like to just take him back for some years, the work that has been done in trying to come a ':lout to solve this problem.

It's a number of years ago where a committee was established, namely, the three municipalities sur rounding the lake and, at that time, four different departments which were involved, and the committee was set up and there was a repres entative from each municipality and the four de partments, to look into the matter of improving the lake itself for such purposes as fishing, and also to accommodate those people who were interested in seeking places to go for recr eation whe:l they are at leisure times.

And I' d like to say, with the fact that so many people are leav ing the rural communities - much to my disapp:>intment but we hope that this will be a trend that won• t continue muc!J. lo'lger - never theless our urban centres are growing and, whea I said earlier that the department he represents is one of importance, and for this reason; with the growing urban areas, people are looking now to go out to these places for rec reation and will do, more so as the years go by, and I think for this reason that the matter that I have to bring before him is important; that is, we•ve had a problem with trying to maintain the level of the lake.

There is a dam at the east end that was built, I believe in 19 48 , and we also had an ease ment agreement that this lake be maintained at not higher than 1329 or thereabou ts, because there are times where the weather man comes into the picture. We have a very heavy rainfall and, as a result, waters flow into this lake and it rises very quickly. We've had problems in the past where we have a very heavy runoff of melting snows in the spring which caused prob lems in this regard.

Then, on the other hand, when we have a very dry season, the water recedes to a level that does n' t make it very good for those people who want to spend time, or wee kends at the lake, for swimming. It also has had some effect on the fish at times when the lake is at a low level. We have also had some problem with algae but we have, I'm glad to say, come a long way in trying to alleviate that problem, but, as I unders tand it, and I believe the situation is at the prese nt time, whereby a dam should be constructed at the east end of this lake to raise it approximately five feet.

I believe this is the recomme:ldation that has come forth in the recent past. But to do this, Mr. Chairman, also enters another problem and this is going to cause the flooding of some farm lands that are owned by individual farmers, and as a result of this it means that we have to expropriate or purchase farm land in order to see that this is carried out. I have found it very difficult at times to try to keep people happy with the controlling of the lake level with the dam that we have at the east end of Rock Lake at the present time, and for this reason, Mr .

Chairman, I would appreciate if the Minister would check back on his files and see if we can get som ething that will solve this matter and will meet with the approval of the people of that part of the constituency which I represent. I might say, too, that there are so many American people are coming over to this part of Manitoba, have found great enjoyment in fishing in that lake, and I think for this reason, as well as the many people in the southern part of Manitoba, are finding a real attraction to that lake.

Also, I would like to say that over the past many years the United Church of Canada, or for Manitoba, from the Red River to the Saskatchewan Bo•mdary, have taken upon themselves to sponsor swimming lesso ns for boys and girls from all parts of the country, and this has been a program that they've engaged in from the first part of July to pretty well the end of Aug.1s t, a proj ect that has been very successf ul, and I'm sure that they want to see continued. And so Mr. Chairman, with these few comments I would hope that the Minister would see fit to see what can be done about the improving of Rock Lake. MR.

CHAIRMAN : The Hoaourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) : Mr. Chairman, I've already had an opportunity to express my good wishes to my honourable friend from Brandon East on his appointment. I would like at this time to use the opportunity to add to the observations of the Honourable Mem ber from Churchill, and also those of my collea gue from Pembina, when he expresses his con cern for the preoccu pation with northern affairs. I think my honourable friend from Pembina

698 September 12, 1969 (MR .

McGILL cont• d. ) .... will have to agree with me that the affairs of the historic Port of Churchill cer tainly have seniority in this House over the more recent problems that have oc curred in our areas, and it mig ht be appropriate in this hundr edth year of our province, and in view of the admonit ion of the Speech from the Throne to regard eco nomic development in its histor ical perspective, to remind the Member from Churchill - although I see he's absent at the moment - that this happens to be the 350th year and, almo st to the day, the 350t h anniversary of the first use of the mouth of the Churchill Rivar as a harbour for ocean-going vessels.

It was on September 7th, I think 1619, that the first two ships, they were from Denmark under the com mand of Jens Munck, who, with 65 men, put into the Port of Churchill, which he discovered q·1ite by accident, and spent the winter there.

We d:> know from history that the weather at Churchill was no less a problem then than it is now, because in June, when the harbour finally cleared of ice, there were only three survivors of this compmy, Jens Munck and two of his' seamen, and they succeeded in re turning to Norway with one of the two ships involved, so that we must agree that, in seniority, the Port of Churchill has been with us for a great many years. I would also like to comment on the additional resp:msibilities of the Mines and Natural Resources, that is the water control services and their conservation.

These have already been dealt with, I think, by several of the speakers, but there are two problems which are very close to my constituency. In fact, one of them is within the constituency of Brandon West and the other within the constituency of the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, and I ima gine it' s a problem that, although not a ma jor one, nevert heless is a serious problem to the person concerned, and the Minister would not have had time yet to deal with thls problem but I bring it to his attention.

On the farm of John Campbe ll, near Willow Cree k, for eight or nine years he has had a serious problem with water that has been diverted on his farm land by reason of highway construction which took place some eight or nine years ago. He h'l.s been un able up to this point to rec eive any attention, or concern really, for his problems from govern ment, but I'm sure that his problems are very close to being at an end inasmuch 'l.s his farm is in the area under the supervision and the representation of the Honourable the Minister.

The other problem relates to one in the Assiniboine Valley where the PFR A a few ye'l.rs ago built some dikes on the Assiniboine River and these dikes are presenting a serious problem now because of the erosion of the banks, and they are unable to be maintained by the farming people in that area; and they wish now to have their problems underta ken by the Department of Mines and Resources. While in the area of western Manitoba, I would commend the Department on the steps they have taken within the last few years to establish a wildfoul sanctuary in the area south of Oak Lake, particularly the area of Plum Lake.

I understand that the government has obtained title to approximat ely 10 sections of land in this area and that some real success is being achieved in the breed ing of ducks, wild ducks in this area, and in geese propagation, and it is the inten tion, I believe, to establish a research station there which would be operated by Brandon University. This sanctuary and this pro gram is not fully under way at this point in time, b•1t the success is there and I und erstand that no less an authority than G. W.

Malaher, who was at one time the Director of the Gam e Branch, has indicated that this marsh is perhaps the finest marsh for its purpose in so:1thern Manitoba. I hope that this pro gram will continue and be ex pande d. There is a minor problem at the moment, a conflict of interest as to the level of the water which should be maintained in the marsh, and the dam on Plum Cr eek is under scrutiny and it would appear that perhaps government action will be necessary there to determine at what level the water in the marsh should be mainta ined.

There has been a considerable amount of debate on the subject of gam e and I would like to add a few words in this connect ion. In Riding Mo•mtain National Park we hJ.ve -- I think.we still have the largest herd of elk in its natural state on the North Am erican con tinent, and there are sizeable r.umbe rsof elk in the Spruce Woods Reserve near to Carberry and Camp S!lilo.

These animals have presented a few problems to the farm ers in the areas of Riding Mountain National Park and in the Due� Mo'.llltains, but their numbers have cert ainly been well maintained and we are in an excellent state with reg ard to the elk population. But it is in respect to the moose population that I am at this time most concerned. I am told by people who have made a continuing study of the moose population with this magnif icent animal is in serious danger of extinction in its areas where there is no protect ive game sanc tuary.

We still have moose population in the neig hbourhood of 25 or 30 animals in the Spruc e Woods Reserve near Carberry and we have a good population in Riding Mo•1ntain, but it is in

September 12, 1969 699 (MR. McGILL co'1t1d. ) .. , . the area where the hunting normally takes place, between latitudes 52 degrees north and 57 degrees nor th, that the serious and critical erosion is occurring at this time.

The mo"Jse has been a target for a great number of hunters, both from wi thin our province and without, for many years and has managed to maintain a fair population by using its normal defensive formations which I presume it's used for many thousands of years, but something has occurred within the last 20 years that has changed this balance rather seriously, and I would point to the aircraft as the principal offender in this respect.

I am well aware of what is going on in the use of aircraft for the spotting of moose from the air and of the use of ele:)tronic de vices , of radio communication between air and ground parties, to direct ground hunters to the area in which moose have been previously spotted from the air.

This has been going on for a number of years and steps have been taken to, by law, prohibit or prevent the hunting of game from the air, but these laws are very difficult to enforce because it's difficult to determine the intent of the pilot and of the people he has on board when they fly over areas during the hunting se ason where there might be moose.

And so we have a highly mechanized force going after moose every fall and winter in our area with airplaines , motorized toboggans, high-powered rifles, two-way radios, and the moose, I'm sorry to say, is still using its inherent abilities , depending upon his sense of smell and his sense of cover to avoid these highly skilled hunting parties - and highly equipped. Now this is coming to a very serious head at this time.

The other factor which is making it even more critical is the dramatic and explosive population growth that has occurred right in the middle of the belt where the best moose hunting is obtained, where most of our moose population now exists . Between parallels 51 or 52 degrees north and 57 degrees, we have a population at Thompson of 20, 000, and what is this doing to our fire power in the fall ? Flin Flon is growing; Lynn Lake is growing; Snow Lake is growing. So, from every side, the moose pClpulation is being the target of a terrific barrage .

This, I suggest, is not merely my personal view on this but I'm supported in this observation by Dr. Tom Lamb, who has lived all his life in The Pas and who :Zor a number of years has been very very concern ed about the gradual decimation of the moose population.

A hundred years ago, again in his torical perspective, when this Le gislat ure first met I imagine that there were few if any buffalo left on the plains , and the elimination of this beast was done with very primitive methods , horse back and muzzle loading rifles - not rifles but muzzle loading guns - but it was a very complete elimination of the buffalo in its natural habitat.

I suggest that within the next very few years the same thing may occur to the moose who are not in protected areas in our pop•1lation and it will ta.�e hundreds of years to get back to a state where we have a normal population in these areas. Now there are definite steps that can be taken in this respect, and I suggest that one very simple method with relatively little expense would be to provide a checkerboard of game sanc tuaries across the northern wilderness where moose pasture is in great abundance but where moos e protection is non-existent at the moment.

I suggest that we es tablish ten-mile square game sanc tuaries in a checkerboard fashion throughout this country to the north and we do it as quickly as we can so that some p::>pulation will be ret ained in these areas . This could be done by having bulldozing equipment cut a swath on the ten-mile square and es tablish small cabins at the corners, and these could be patrolled during the hunting season by people who maybe are not fully able to wor�z in mines or other heavy indus tries but who might be available for these kind of patrol duties.

Once these sanctuaries were established I feel sure that we could be certain that the moose population would continue to exist and perhaps to multiply, I think it's a very imp::>rtant resource to this province. This moose is the larg est of the species still in its natural habitat and I earnestly commend to the Department of Mines and Re sources that they consider these actions at the earliest possible time. Another season or two of hunting with airplanes and radios and motor toboggans may be more than this population can stand.

This is our hundredth year ; let' s not have happen what happened to the buffalo about a hundred years ago. Tha:ili: you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I too wish to congratulate the Minister on his appointment as Minister of the Department of Natural Resources. I think this is a very interest ing and both challenging department, and likewise I want to congratulate and wish the staff of his department well in fulfilling their work on behalf of the people of Manitoba.

There are several matters that I'd like to dwell on rather briefly though and probably I should ,start off with the matter of the South Indian Lake mineral invest igation. I know that we

700 September 12, 1969 (MR . FROESE cvnt•d. ) .... have quite a siz eable allocation for this purpose and I' d be int erest ed to hear from the Minister since we are jus t about almost half through the present fiscal year where this money is to be spent; what progress are we making; and what are the possibilities of this vent ure. I think we as members and the people of this province are entitled to know when we are spending large amounts of money of this type for such a thing that this is not just a wild goose chase but that we can expect something out of it. And what is the purpose ?

Are we mak ing these inves tigations as a government, and then is the idea to let private industry go into it or is this going to be a public venture after the inves tigations have been made ? Ce rtainly when we heard the other day about the new mine being opened just east of Winn.ipeg - I forget the type of mine that was mention ed -- (I nterj ection) -- Pard on ? Northwood? I think if we can -- (I nter je ction) -- Pardon? I couldn't get the name the other day when the Mini ster made the announce ment. I should have checked Hansard so that I'd be more informed ::>�the subject.

Then, too, there are other items in his department which are of inte rest to me. We are spending a lot of money under the ARDA Program in the Interlake area and I find that in the estimates we have something like half a million allocated for inventory programming. We also have the report of the year ending March 31st , 19 68, which states on Page 33 that approximately 20 million acres, or 35 percent of the area devoted to agricul ture has already been classified. What progress are we making in this area? Are maps available of the work that has been done so far and what can we expect?

Will this present allocation suffice, or how much more is there to go? Then, too, since the Federal Government is contributing to this, both to the studies and also to the inventory, just what eo-ordination is there ? I find that in the federal estimates there are several allocations being made in connection wit h Canada• s share of the cost of regional water resource planning for which they allocated $200, 000. That is for the whole prairie region ; I'm not sure jus t how much of that is being spent in Manitoba. Then there is res earch and inve stigation of inland water resources.

Here again some eight or nine million dollars is being spent, and to what extent is that money spent in Mani toba or is all of this eight or nine million going to other provinces ?

The matter of the Greater Winnipeg Floodway is also mentioned in the federal estimates, and while it' s only a small item of $20, 000, I would take that this is probably being spent on dams on the Red River because as far as I know the Floodway is completed, and if it' s not I would like to hear from the Minister jus t what monies are being spent in connect ion wit h the Greater Winnipeg Floodway, Another thing of interest to me would be jus t what is the cost of main tenance of this Floodway.

I think whe:J. the project was first started and the information was given at that time as to the total cost and the federal contribution and so on, that the cost of maintenance was very substantial, and while we have bulk votes in the estimates, I think it would be interest ing to find out jus t how much we are spending in the maintenance of that Floodway. Another item has to do wit h the matter of drainage and water control and conser vation. Here we have a very large item of $2. 3 million for the purpose of provincial waterways and water control and so on.

During the last ses sion I asked for a detailed program of the monies that are being spent in this department for drainage on the various drains and I v.as assured at that tim e that this would be forthcoming. However, since the election came about it did not hap pen. I've since asked the Honourable Minister during our question period for such a tabling and I think the answer was favourable. I would like to get this information if at all possible as soon as possible too. I think drainage is very impntant to the people of Ma.tlitoba, especia lly to the farm community, because in this way we can save the soil.

While the fertility of the soil is just on the top five inches or so, if you have this washed away you've lost the real value of your farmland and anything we can do as a government to help in the matter of drainage I think is money well spent and I think more attention should be paid to this particular matte r. I do n' t think we can overspend in this area because the sooner we get the drainage fixed the sooner we will be saving .... A ME MBE R: Yo'.l rang the bell. MR. FROESE ; I sure did. I imagine that' s very important. The matter of drainage and soil protec tion is rea lly important to Manitoba.

I don' t think it meant that I should quit speaking just now . The work that is being carried on on the Hespeler Floodway is going quite well and I am cert ainly pleased that the government is procee ding on this particular floodway. I do hope that the two or three miles of extra extension that is very badly needed will be made in short order, and I would like to hear from the Mini ster whether he could not accommodate this matter in the

September 12, 1969 701 (MR . FROESE cont' d. ) ..•. current est imates and whether we could not just go two or three miles further because I think this is a very important

section of that particular floodway that needs attention. I'm sure that this whole venture on the Hes peler is very much appreciated by the farm community in the whole general area that is benefitting from it. It certainly means that the water will be contained in that stream and that the damage will be ceasing and that farm land in that area can be worked properly and can be sav ed. The Pembina Dam ha.s been mentioned by a previous speaker.

I've already disc ussed it in the Throne Speech but I feel, too, that we should do everything in our power to speed up matters or any red tape, eliminate red tape in getting something done on this particular venture. Feasi bility studies have been conducted and completed in my opinion.

The other government have in dicated a willingness, if I'm correct, to participate, both ottawa and the United States, and I think from reading some of the periodicals coming from across the line that as a res ult of the flooding that took place this spring that they are probably ready to act much faster than pre viously indicated and I would urge the Minister to proceed on this venture as fast as possible.

I have asked for a Return tabling information as to correspondence and so on and I do hope this comes forward; and anything that the people in our area can do in connection with hastening it, I think they'd be only too happy to assist the government in any way possible. I think the split that was recommended in those studi es as to the cost between the various governments and the total cost of the project are not of a nature that this government cannot tackle. I am sure that the monies required can be provided. They are not so large.

I see that the total estimates are increased, and certainly if monies were needed for this particular purpose I' d be quite happy to supp ::�rt the government on that and on that matter. I have already indicated as to the value of that particular project in connection with recrea tion, in connection with flood protection, with supplying the communities in southern Manitoba with a water supply.

The Towns of Gretna and Altona are completely dependent on the water that is contained over the winter in the Pembina River across the line in the United States, and I think during the winter months and early spring when conditions are still frozen that the water gets pretty stale . We need these dams in the worst way so that water can be brought in and a stead y flow can be had in the Pembina for the very matter of a supply of water for these com munities, and I think once the dams were built that the water would also be used for other pur poses.

The matter of irrigation certainly would come into play and some of our industries such as the canneries would certainly stand to gain on this very important project. We find that too often just during t.'J.e very time that our crops are coming in, the vegetable crops, that is the time we need rain very badly and that the quality of the product cer tainly could be much im pl·oved for these industries . . So we have a number of needs and a number of needs would be met through this particular project. I certainly would be interested to hear from the Minister on this.

I don't think he has yet replied on it during the estimat es . His introductory remarks were very brief. I would also like to hear from him beca use he mi ght think that this matter had been disc ussed at the previous session and would probably not need comment at this time, but I think it is important enough that this government also take a very keen interest in the matter, and if there is any change of attitude or policy that we as members be adivsed of this. Ce rtainly I once more wish the Minister well and I do hope that we have su ccess in this matter. MR.

CHAIRMAN : The Honourable House Leader ' of the Liberal Party. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Leader of the Liberal Party)(Portage la Prairie) : Mr. Chairman, I only have a very few questions for the Minister and the first one is with respect to the proposed high level dam on the Churchill River diversion. We were told in the previous se ssion that the licence whether to proceed or not could be granted either by licence from the Minister or by legislation.

The last session had a promise of legislation to be passed which was never completed, so I would like the Minister to inform the House whether, when the govern ment does make the decision, whether it will be done by the granting of a license by himself or it will be done by legislation. There has been su ggestions that this is going to be a short ses sion so I would like that p:>int clarified; because if it is to be done by legislation there may be the possibility that it would ha ve to wait for a session next year.

The second point I wanted to mention was the matter of the mars hlands at Delta on Lake Manitoba. Pres ently there are many acres of marshland under the control of the province now. Since the Bain Est ate was purchased some years ago for the Assiniboine Diversion to go through, the province has since acquired more marshland. I would like to suggest or recommend that the

702 September 12, 1969 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd. ) ... province should turn that whole Delta area into a provincial park. It is on one of the major flyways in North America, a sanc tuary is required, and presently part of that land is in use as a sanctuary in co-operation with the wildlife station which they themselves control the marshland there. I am no: too sure that I know the response that the governmen� would receive from the Rural Municipality of Port age Council on this suggestion. Presently it is part of their municipality but it has no particular status.

There are about 150 co ttages along the lake shore and then the marsh behind. So I would suggest that his department carry out some exploratory talks with the Rural Municipality Co·mcil of Portage to see whether or not this should be proceeded wit h. Like the honourable member from Brandon West has suggested, the pressure is on wild life as the population shifts in Manitoba and we should be thinking of the future and not face up to the situation wheu it is almost too late. So I would like to hear from the Minister on those two points. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, was the Minister indicating that he was going to answer at this p:lint or is he just taking the questions under advice. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to comment and answer a number of questions that have been put to us last night and this morning, but if the honourable member wished to ask one or two more quest ions I would be prepared to give him the floor. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and my thanks to the Honourable Minister.

I would like to have the floor for one more minute at this point, with the indulgence of the Minis ter and members of the committee, to say one or two things that I think do come rightfully into the purview of this particular debate. It is true, as I said a few moments ago, that most of the things I want to say in this area have to do with the very serious subject of pollution and so I shall reserve those comments for the estimates of the Department of Health and Social Services.

But the Minister in his departmental function certainly is responsible for water control and con servation and water storage and a wide spec trum of subject s having to do with our water and our water ways and water resources in this province, and I would like a minute, Sir, to make a re mark or two with specific reference to that subject. I was impressed by the manner in which the Member for Churchill spoke last night with some eloquence about the needs of the north and he talked about the development of our last frontiers.

This is a commendable position and a commendable expression of view which I think deserves the serious consideration of all of us in this Chamber, not just the Minister, but at the same time I would like to say that I am concerned not only with the development of our last fron tiers but with the recovery and the rehabilitation of some of our first frontiers, those first frontiers being our rivers and our waterways in general.

There is no question that one of the great hazards to us, one of the great perils and dangers to our society, to our province and to our future, is the very real risk that we run, Sir, of le tting some of our natural resources rot and spoil, and our rivers and our waterways come into this categ ory in most important fashion.

I at this juncture would like to enjoin the Minister to address himself to the problem of rehabilitation of these great resources in the field of water that we have because there is a very serious danger that many of them, through apathy as much as anything else, and cer tainly through the pressures of contemporary living and our industrial environment, are .sl iding into the position where they are rotting and spoiling, and as a conse quence we in this province are in danger of being robbed of some of our great est natural heritage .

My coll eague the Member for Brandon West has talked about the theft of our heritage in one of the areas of wildlife, but as surely as we are being robbed of part of our heritage there, we are being robbed either overtly or covertly, either by design or by apathy, of much of our heritage where our great waterways are concerned. And I just remind the Minister that among our great attrac tions in this province, among our great pastoral attractions which go to really give an extra special quality to our life in Manitoba, are our great rivers, and particularly the Red and the Assiniboine.

I would like to suggest that when it is practical for his department, and possible in terms of the treasury, that a feasibility study be carried out on the purification and the beautification of the Red and the Assiniboine rivers, particularly in urban and Metropolitan areas such as the Metropolitan area of Greater Winnipeg and the urban area surrounding Brandon. I think that if he is able to mo·mt an initiative and a momentum aimed at win.. J.ing and developing a public en thusiasm for the rehabilitation of these great attrac tions, for their purification and their

Septembe·;:-12, 1969 703 (MR.

SHERMAN cont• d. ) .... beautification, that he will be performing a service for which res idents of Manitoba will be mos t grateful to him because there is no question that in compari son with other parts of the continent, and particularly with other parts of Canada, that we have unique natural and pastoral attractions from which we C·)'-lld reap great advanta ge, not only material from the point of view of tourist revenue but spiritual, if I may use that term, from the p:Jint of view of the enjoyment of life in the Province of Manitoba, from the point of view of the enjoyment of our O'Vn environment, and anything that can be done to rest ore the natural pleasure and the natural beauty and the natural kind of peace and quality of life that is given, that has been given in the past to life in Manitoba by the Red, by the Ass iniboine and by the others of our rivers that flow through se ttled urban areas, will be. of untold value to the pres ent generation and our future generations of Manitoba, and of untold value to our province in general in terms of its development and its growth and all the pleasures of our life here.

So I would ask the Minister if he would consider under taking such a study, when it is practica l, aimed at such a rehabilita tion, with a view to making life in Manitoba even more pleasant than it currently is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Mines and Natura l Resource s. MR. EVANS : Thank you. Well I certainly appreciate the very many valuable sugg estions that have been made by honourable members of the House in this very diversified department.

The guestions asked are very much to the point and they do indicate the general concern that we have in the province for water control problems, the future of our wildlife and so on, and I will say right now, as a new Minister, I will certainly consider the very many wort hwhile proposals that have been made, keeping in mind of course the constant constraint of dollars, the constant constraint of revenues, which leads me to my first answer to a question raised by the Member from Gladstone concerning water control problems.

Many of these individual water control projects that are proposed by municipalities or special groups do have considerable merit, but I might point out - and the former Minister of Mines and Natural Resources I am sure is quite aware of this - that the technique in our Water Control Branch is that which causes us to be aware of the cost s as opposed to the benefits.

Now undoubtedly all of these water control schemes that are suggested , the various drainage schemes that are suggested and so forth, do have benefits, but these benefits have to be weighed against the cost, and it is a procedure that is followed within this particular branch to attempt to weigh the benefits against the cost s, and if we can see a satis fac tory outcome then the policy has been to proceed with the particular st ructure or project proposed, providing of course the funds are forthcoming through this Leg!.slature ultimately.

Another problem co"1cerning water control, and I am sure this isn• t new to members of the Ho'lse, is the conflict of interest that occu rs. Very often what is very very beneficial in terms of agriculture is detrimental to the interests of wildlife, and then of course you get conflict be tween tourist industry people or co ttagers perhaps and agriculture interests, so you get some times three or four varying interests that have to be reco nciled and this is really a matter sometimes of getting community agreement.

The member for Gla:istone asked me some questions about flooding in his area and pro posed some so lutions. I believe one of his sugges tions was to place a dam on the Boggy or Ed en Cr eek for headwater storage, I am informed that due to the topography of the area it is not pos sible to cr eate a res ervoir that would make a significant difference to the flow . This is what our engineers advise us. There have been proposals for construction of the Keyes dam and the Dead Lake Diversion around the town.

I am also informed that the damages that would be averted are not that great and that the benefit-c ost ratio is extremely low. I believe that these proposals have been disc ussed with the people in that area. In other words , they have been told of the cost -benefit ration that exists. I believe the member was also particularly concerned with the cemetery.

Apparently people have been blaming the culvert s under the highway for causing the backup of water, but I am afraid the problem has been there much longer than the culverts and the department has suggested that the municipality build a small dike on the edge of the cemet ery, but so far the municipality has taken no action. The J.V:ember from Gladstone also mentioned - I don•t know whether he is here, I don' t see him in the House but perhaps he can read Hansard - the question of the Big Grass Marsh and the problem of crop depredation.

We :lo recognize this is a problem and we are consider ing the question of compensation for damage, including the various ways that it might be financed. This is under consideration and I can' t really say any more about it at this time.

704 September 12, 1969 (M R. EVANS cont1 d. ) Pa.;;sing along to the next honoura ble member, the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose again enquired about the announcement of the South Indian Lake problem, or question, and I would advise him that we hope that a statement will be forthcoming next weel\: some time. The other statement of the honourable member was with. regard to volunteer groups and his advice that we should work closely with them. I think this is good advice and we cert ainly will endeavour to meet and actively co- operate with people.

I have met the Executive Secret ary of the Wildlife Fed eration already and he has invited me to certain meetings that various locals have around the province, and come the end of the session and GQd willing, we hope to attend some oi these me etings. There are other federations that I am becoming aware of, the Fisher men' s Federation for example. This is more on the commerci al side, but nevertheless I think it is quite us eful to "liaise" as you sugg est with these poeple and I certainly will give this sug gestion of working with voluntary groups every consideration and I do intend to act on it.

Now the Honourable Member from Emeraon brought up the ques tion of the Pembina dam and also I believe the Member from Rhineland this morning brought it up again. I am quite con cerned about this problem, and as they rightly point out, the Fe :ieral GQvernment should be interested. As a matter of fact, it is a question that wolL.d involve the International Joint Com mis sion on Waterways, and as they may be aware, a great deal does depend on the extent of federal participation. There is the old ques tion of cos t-benefit analys is. Interest rates have risen, making such projects more expensive.

However, I think this is a rather special case, cost-benefit studies apart, and I can only say that the matter is being actively and I do expect to be able to discuss the matter poss ibly in Ottawa later in the. year. It is a joint federal-provincial development. There are other proj ect s, irrigation projects which the province is considering. I think we have to review some o.; these other areas of the province that have irrigation potentials and establish a list of priorities, and possibly then go to Ottawa and discuss some of these ques tions.

But I really believe that the Pembina dam shO'll d be very high up on the lis t of priorities. So I would like to assure the two honourable members concerned that I share their interest in this. I have a number of other pieces of information to pass along and answers to give, but I am afraid we have run out of time today. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker,

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-30
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 30.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7fde7d7e28aeaf73a5d7b7ebba32d7401281e656

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