Manitoba Hansard — 21 May 1991 (Sitting 47A, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-47a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session ·Thirty-Fifth Leglslature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 47A • 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, MAY 21, 1991 Printed by the Office of the O.,_.s Printer, Province of M•nltoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS,C lif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAU DRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kil don an Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-R ussell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

2257 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 21, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biii 49-The Colleges and Consequentlal Amendments Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 49, The Colleges and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les colleges et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives, be introduced and that the same be received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advise d of the content s of the bill, recommends it to the House. I have the message from the Lieutenan t· Governor to table. Motion agreed to. Biii 48-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 48, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant le Code de la route, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. * (1 335) Biii 50-The Liquor Control Amendment Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), thatBill 50, The Liquor Control Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la reglementation des alcools, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biii 51-The Pharmaceutlcal Act Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), that Bill 51, The Pharmaceutical Act;

Loi sur les pharmacies, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biii 52-The Famlly Maintenance Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Sp eaker, I mo ve, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 52, The Family Maintenance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'obligation alimentaire, be introduced and thatthe same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biii 53-The Natural Products Marketing Amendment Act Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Downey), that Bill 53, The Natural Products Marketing Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la commercialisation des produits naturals, be introduced and the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biil 57-The Horse Racing Commission Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Bill 57, The Horse Racing Commission Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Commission hippique, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to.

2258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1991 Biii 58-The Development Corporation Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Bill 58, The Development Corporation Amendment Act; Loi modi fiant la

Loi sur la Societe de developpement, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biii 55-The Employment Standards Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Bill 55, The Employment Standards Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les normes d'emploi, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. * (1 340) Biii 56-The Payment of Wages Amendment Act Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Bill 56, The Payment of Wages Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le paiement des salaires, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biii 54-The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1991 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), that Bill 54, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 91 ; Loi de 1991 modi fiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advis ed of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Lieutenant-Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable memb ers to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, Mr. Robert Lavalee, the Mayor of Rock Ridge commu nity, accompanied by Councillor Stanley Lavallee and Councillor Amos Marion. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Gasollne Storage Regulations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Mini ster of Environment. We are quite concerned to hear today that the go vernm ent is cont emp lating changes in regulations for the storage and handling of gasoline products in the province of Manitoba. We were concerned in the sense that we had not heard about this before, although there have been some consultations going on with apparently selective companies dealing with this issue.

The government itself has been dealing with the storage and cleanup of its gasoline products in its own area. I would ask the Minister of Environment whether he intends on having regulations enforced in the public of Manitoba that will be consistent with the standards that they have used themselves for the Remand Centre, or will they be higher standards in terms of the operators in Manitoba? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the discussion on these regulations that are attracting attention in today's media began under the previous administration.

Perhaps he missed that during his period in office. As regarding any potential regulatory changes that we are contemplating, I can assure you the province of Manitoba will be expected to meet or exceed those standards. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I notice the Minister of Environment did not talk about the Remand Centre and its standards. Winnipeg Remand Centre Site Gasoline Seepage Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would ask the Minister of Government Services, Mr.

May 21, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANIT OBA 2259 Speaker, that the information we are receiving now from his own depar tmen t ind icates that the government is looking at the option of placing in a false floor at the Remand Centre site, that the costs could run as high as $900,000, that they still will not cover all the toxic contaminations that may not have been taken care of after the excavation took place, before the building went in. I would ask the Minister of Government Services to inform Manitobans: What are the options that you are looking at? How much will it cost us?

Why did the province not have a full excavation of the contaminated soil prior to the building of the Rem and Centre, as rec omme nded by many people? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Speaker, let us put it on the record, this did not just happen overnight. This is a cause of about 30 to 40 years. However, until we receive those proposals-and it is not unique, what is looking at the Remand Centre. It has been done in Toronto with 40-storey buildings. It has been done in Calgary with subdivision.

We will take all care and precautions when we are looking at the proposals when they come forward. * (1 345) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister is right. This is not un ique. What is unique is to have an excavation that this government was involved in with the construction of the new Remand Centre and not to take out all the contaminated soil at the time of excavation. The question to the minister is: How much is this going to cost? Will it require a false floor? The minister has had a number of consultant reports prepared for him. Will he table those consultant reports?

Will he tell us and inform Manitobans the extent of the contamination? Will it go up to the Remand Centre? Will it go to the new arena site? What is the extent and scope- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, let us not put scare into the people in Winnipeg. If the member from across the way would understand, what you are doing is you are creating a crawl space underneath the existing building, and that will handle those contaminated areas. We are looking at the proposals that are put aside by consultants that have specialized in Calgary, specialized in Toronto.

When those proposals come forward, I will bring those towards the House. Rock Ridge, Manitoba Community Subdivision Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, in December of 19 89, the Minister of Northern Affairs went to Rock Ridge and promised to expedite the request for a new subdivision to accommodate families wanting to move to Rock Ridge. In February of 1990, prior to the election, the minister approved a proposed plan of subdivision.

Then last fall, November of 19 90, after the election, the minister turned down the request and said: Give me the names of the people and we will consider it again, those that want to move into the subdivision. I ask, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister now has the names of some 14 families representing some 62 people wishing to move to Rock Ridge, how can this minister continue to refuse this legitimate request and justify his decision up to this point in time? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, it is very appropriate thatthe community mayor happens to be here today from Rock Ridge. I am surprised that the member has not asked this question for many, many weeks now and why he would delay until the mayor was here. Unlike the NOP government who denied the community community status, we proceeded to give them commu nity status and a new park, Mr. Speaker, did many things in their community. As we all have to appreciate , there are many comm unities in the North tha t have been established for many years and have requests put forward for commun it y im provements and development.

On balance, that is what we are trying to do, to make sure that the distribution and the growth of these communities are done fairly, and the department has made the recommendations which I have accepted to this point. Mr. Plohman: This minister is not in favour of any growth for this community or he would allow the subdivision. That is the only way they can grow. Mr. Speaker, yes, the mayor and councillors are in the gallery here today, and we welcome them here. They have come over 200 miles to plead their case directly to this minister. He continues to deny it.

2260 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 I ask this minister: How can he justify a new fire-hall for Spence Lake, just down the road from Meadow Portage that has all of those facilities, a new subdivision and several empty houses at that community, if it is a matter of priorities and scarce dollars? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, not accepting any of the

preamble of the member for Dauphin, without accepting any of it, I can say that, prior to Question Period today and prior to coming to the House, I did have a meeting with my good friend the mayor from Rock Ridge. An Honourable Member: Finally, after being forced into it. Mr. Downey: No, Mr. Speaker. It was not a matter of being forced into it. It was by free will of the mayor. He freely came to town and met with me. He did not come under any force. What I have assured the mayor, Mr. Speaker, is that we do not have any new monies available for the development of a subdivision.

However, what I said was, if there are people there who are currently without employment-a nd they recommended this to me to take a look at job opportunities for people who are currently unemployed- there may be some work that could be carried out in a preliminary fashion. I have agreed to have staff look at that option. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, this minister cannot justify expenditur es for Pines and for other communities when this community is sitting waiting. It would mean jobs for that community and additional families that would justify other services. I would ask the minister, Mr.

Speaker: In view of the fact that NACC is supporting this request, CMHC says there are a number of requests ready to go in

Section 79 Housing, will this minister now admit that his priorities are dictated solely by politics and not on the basis of need and merit? Is that not a fact? This is why the minister refuses to do it. • (1 350) Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, the community of Rock Ridge waited for some six years while he was a minister in government to give them community status so they could grow and expand. What did they do? No, they did not give them anything. Mr.

Speaker, ifthe member for Dauphin has other communities that he wants me to take the money from, then I would ask him to tell me which communities in the North he wants me to take the money from. If he had not spent $27 million on a bridge to nowhere and $20-some million in Saudi Arabia, there would have been money for all kinds of subdivisions in Rock Ridge. CFB Shllo Closure Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in 1989, the federal Tory government announced the closing of military bases in Portage la Prairie and in Winnipeg.

A number of jobs were tragically lost to the community and an estimated $1 37-million blow to the Manitoba economy. On Saturday in the Toronto Star, two independent sources were quoted as saying that CFB Shilo will be closed or scaled down. CFB Shilo em ploys 1, 600 people with a payroll of some $65 million. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Has the First Minister been informed of any plans to close the base? What information has he received to date? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have not been informed of any plans to date.

I am as interested as the Leader of the opposition is in that. You might say that, in her

preamble, she has not indicated that the plans for CFB Winnipeg have been put on hold and those job losses have not taken effect as was initially planned. The plans for Portage la Prairie, with respect to replacement as the sole location for the contracted training of flying personnel, may well result in minimal losses as a result of the efforts of the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) and many members on this side. She may recall that, when I raised it with the Prime Minister at my meeting with him in August of 1989, she criticized me for raising that issue and not raising other issues.

It was as a result of those efforts of this government working with the people of Portage la Prairie that we have minimiz ed the impact and hopefully in the longer term may even have greater economic impact than the things that will now take place at Portage la Prairie. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, I am deeply disturbed by the Premier's answer, as I think will be every Manitoban, because instead of addressing the issue of CFB Shilo, the Premier has deliberately skirted the whole issue.

May 21, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2261 Can the Premier tell the House today if he has been in touch with his counterparts in Ottawa to protest any cuts to the Shilo base? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I have had officials making inquir ies with Ottawa because of that rumour. In fact, when the matter was raised by the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans), I made direct reference to that in my statement at the Western Premiers' Conference in Nipawin last week, about the fact that we did not want to see continuing offloading and continuing cutbacks in areas that were detrime ntal to the Manitoba economy. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, while it is a welcome initiative that he spoke to this at the western Premiers' meeting, none of the western Premiers will be involved in the decision making. The decision will be made in Ottawa.

Can the First Minister tell this House today what direct action he has taken, if any, in contacting the federal Minister of Defence or indeed the Prime Minister to ensure that cuts to Shilo will not take place? •

(1355) Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, firstly, as I said earlier, I have officials making inquiries to ensure that it is not just a false rumour, to see whether or not there is any veracity to the rumour. Depending on the response that I get, I will take whatever action is appropriate. Homemaker Services Community-Based Programs Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services. As a result of this government's budget and prog ram prioriti es, funding for pr eventive commu nity-based care for vulnerable families has been slashed.

It is well documented that these types of services are best provided at the com muni ty lev el, in terms of pr evention , responsiveness and cost-effectiveness. I am tabling a documen t which compares comm uni ty-based home maker se rvices to alternative more institutionalized care. The cost savings for the government for 10 randomly selected cases is well over $400,000.

My question to the mi nister is: Since this government's overriding concern is the bottom line, why is the Minister of Family Services considering not adequately funding these proven cost-effective, community-based programs, which keep families together and often eliminate the need for more costly in stitut i onalized care, such as hospitalization? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Speaker, I know the member is aware that we have made, in this government, Family Services a priority in this budget and have increased the funding nearly 7 percent.

We have worked with the agencies that work with children and families across the province and, of course, the six agencies and the treatment centres within Winnipeg. One of the things that has become apparent is that agencies have gone different directions in the way they offer services in their communities. In most cases, the agencies have offered a balance between the foster families and the care at home and the use of the treatment centres.

Of course, with the high- needs individuals who are in the treatment centres, they have access to psychologists and psychiatrists to deal with some of the more difficult cases. We would see agencies using a balanced approach of both the resources that families were able to give and also using the treatment centres. Ms.

Barrett: Considering that these 10 cases alone could mean a conservative estimate of a cost increase of $400,000 to the Department of Health, has the Minister of Family Services consulted with the Health minister regarding the impact of these increased costs and responsibilities for the Minister of Health's (Mr. Orchard) department when these services are offloaded from the Family Services department? Mr. Gllle shammer: Yes, I can assur e the honourable member that I consult with the Minister of Health frequently and enjoy his input on many decisions which interact on both our departments.

Famlly Services of Winnipeg Inc. Homemaker Program Funding Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Will the Minister of Family Services now assure this House that funding will not be withdrawn from services such as the homemaker program of Family Services of Winn ipeg In c. which pr ovide prevent ive , cost-effective care and which have increasing and wide-ranging support in the community? Will he ensure that these services are protected?

2262 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 "

(1400) Hon. Harold Gllleshammer {Minister of Famlly Services): I can assure the honourable member that my answer today is the same as it was last week and the week before when we talked about Family Services of Winnipeg Inc. The department is working with staff from those agencies to look at their programs. We had promised at that time that we would try and do this very quickly and have answers by the early part of June. Inner City Foundation Government Commitment Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley) Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs.

The Core Area In itiative won international recognition tor its innovative programs and its attempts over 10 years to deal with the severe social and economic problems facing Winnipeg's inner city. The Core Area Initiative has now ended, but, Mr. Speaker, Program 7, one program of the Core Area Initiative, which was innovative, which was long term, the creation of an Inner City Foundation, never got off the ground. My question to the Minister of Urban Affairs is: Is this government committed still to the creation of an Inner City Foundation?

Will it proceed with Program 7 as provided tor in the tripartite agreement? Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as the member for Wolseley well knows, the Core Area Initiative is a tripartite partnership. All three partners must agree to any activity related to any change in any program within the Core Area Initiative. Mr. Speaker, we are presently reviewing potential alternatives for a variety of programs, including the question of an Inner City Foundation. No decision has been taken. It still remains in the program.

The Core Area Initiative, contrary to what the honourable member stated, will not be over until March of 1992. Funding Avallablllty Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, Program 7 provided tor a million dollars to be set aside tor the longer-term benefits to inner city communities. Will the minister assure this House that, while he is deliberating, while he and his partners are del iberating in this watered-down Core Area extension, this $1 million will still be available for an Inner City Foundation? Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated just a moment ago, it is still available. However, at the present time, a number of alternatives are being looked at by the members of the Core Area Policy Committee. When those alternatives have been ultimately decided upon, we will advise the House. Core Area Initiative Meeting Discussions Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Will the minister tell the House what provincial commitments he made to the Core Area meeting of three levels of government over the past weekend? Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, the three members of the policy committee met on Friday afternoon, as I indicated to the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) earlier. We have had a number of discussions related to both the Core Area In itiative, The Forks Renewal Corporation and the North Portage Development Corporation. Matters therein are ongoing, and we hope to pursue a number of avenues related to the potential tor continuation of programs such as are presently found under the Core Area Initiative. Foster Care Brochure Clrculatlon Mr. Reg Alcock {Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, it is regrettable when individuals in this community or any community prey upon people who are most vulnerable and most at risk. I was pleased last week to note the successful prosecution of an individual in this community, who has been charging a fee tor adoption services. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if his department has made him aware that same individual is currently soliciting foster parents and ask him what steps they have taken to prevent this? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer {Minister of Famlly Services): Mr.

Speaker, yes, I am aware of the brochure that the honourable member has. I have asked my department to look into that and bring back their best advice. Government Polley Mr. Reg Alcock {Osborne): Mr. Speaker, this brochure, which was circulated some three weeks

May 21, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2263 ago, suggests that the Conservative government is doing appropriate things on behalf of foster kids and that child welfare professionals have neglected children in their care and advocating several changes in policy relative to foster care in this province. I would like to ask the minister, is this representative of the policies of his department? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I have indicated, Mr.

Speaker, to the honourable member, that the pamphlet that he alludes to is one that we have recently received and which is before the department. I think the policies of the department are well enunciated through the ministry and through the department staff. Whenever there are changes, we would be happy to make the public aware of them. Soclal Assistance Pharmaceutical Benefits Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, the public only becomes aware of policy changes when they go to act upon those policies.

The minister has, some time ago now, issued a list of drugs to druggists, which are no longer eligible for claiming under income security, specifically drugs that are made available to children, Tylenol, for example, or cough syrup. People on income security are no longer able to claim financial remuneration for those drugs. I would like to ask the minister why he has taken such a regressive step? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to see the member back in good health again and back in the Chamber. I meant to mention that with my first answer.

I would like to remind him that we have added substantially to the budget for social allowances in this province. We have made an increase there of some $30 million. Our total provincial budget now in social allowances is $279 million. We have also made a commitment to work with the groups that represent individuals who access those programs and have made the commitment to monitor some of the changes that have taken place within a department. If there are hardships that come to our attention, we will be pleased to take a look at that. 55-Plus Program Minister's Statements Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Last Friday, the Minister of Family Services stated thatthere was no increase in the 55-Plus pension program for seniors in years 1981 through to 1985 under the NOP. Firstly, the NOP was not in government until November 30, 1981, and secondly, the 55-Plus program was not established until 1986. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is Question Period. I have not even heard the questions, but there seems to be a dispute over the facts. The member is clearly out of order. I ask him to get to his point. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, kindly put your question, please. *** Mr. Leonard Evans: I announced this program in the House on May 20, 1986. I want to table a copy of the news release which states that this is a new program whereby we double the benefits of the previous program; two, we instituted annual indexation of benefits; and third, we changed the criteria providing for a massive increase in the number of Manitobans who would qualify. My question, Mr.

Speaker: In light of these facts-and these are the facts-will the minister now correct the record and acknowledge that the 55-Plus program was established in 1986? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I have the greatest of respect for the member for Brandon East, but I think that he is factually incorrect at this time. My understanding is the 55-Plus program dates back to 197 4, and my comments simply were that, during most of the 1980s that the member references when that party was in power, there was no increase in 1981 through to 1986.

I acknowledge that there was a change made in 1986, but there were some five years there where there was no indexing and no changes made in that program. We have indicated this year that we are maintaining that program at last year's levels, similar to what his government did during those years through in the mid-'80s. Mr. Leonard Evans: A new program was established with indexation, the first time in the

2264 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 history of this province. Come on, get with it. It is a new program. It was never- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Brandon East, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Brandon East, kindly put your question, please. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Will the minister withdraw the statement made last Friday when he was quoted as saying: When they were in government, there was no increase in 55-Plus because the benefits were increased by 4.5 percent in 1987-88, by 4.2 percent in '88-89, reflecting the increase in the cost of living? We have had increases since then, Mr. Speaker, except this year, with this majority Conservative government- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. *

(1410) Mr. Gllleshammer: I often admire the honourable member's ability to take credit for things that happened in the past, even while he is in opposition, but the renaming of the program or the changes that were made in the program in 1986 do not wash away the fact that there was no change in that program in the five years in which they were in government. There was no indexing and no change. We have indicated that we have done a similar thing this year where we have kept the program at last year's level.

I know that the honourable member, who likes to take credit for these things, will also take responsibility for the fact that there was no change in that program during the years that I referenced. Delndexlng Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I hope the minister can read. I would like him to read the news release, because there was a new program established, and he does not want to recognize that. Mr.

Speaker, will the minister now seriously reconsider reinstituting the indexation in light of the fact that 55-Plus assists people on very low income, particularly older women, and secondly, that the freeze will impact, not only this year, but indefinitely into the future unless there is a policy change? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I want to assure the honourable member that budget decisions that were made were taken very seriously. Very difficult but necessary exercise was done through the budget Estimates.

You know, I can tell you that, in time of fairly high income by the provincial government, there was no change in that program during the early '80s. I am not sure why there was a change in 1986, but there were a number of years previous to that where there had been no change. Manitoba Dental Association Leglslatlon Request Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): The news reports today involving this government and the Manitoba Dental Association have certainly caught our attention and, I am sure, the Minister of Health's as well.

I would like to ask the minister: Since it appears that the Manitoba Dental Association requested several months ago from this government some amendments to The Dental Association Act, as a result of the 1990 decision of Laba versus the Manitoba Dental Association of the Manitoba Court of Appeal, which does not allow the Manitoba Dental Association to require its members to upgrade their skills or retrain to meet specific standards, I simply want to ask the Minister of Health if he is prepared to announce today that this government will be introducing the requested amendments from the Manitoba Dental Association in this sitting of the Legislative Assembly?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, thank goodness for the normal research document that arrives in the opposition caucus approximately 8:30 in the morning. Otherwise, there would be no questions. Let me indicate to my honourable friend that, despite the tenor of the article, the relationship enjoyed by this government with the Manitoba Dental Association has been a very good one, very co-operative one. Mr. Speaker, what I would like to indicate to my honourable friend is, first, she is correct that the MDA has asked for amendments.

Unfortunately, those amendments are not ready to be presented to the House this session. I have indicated to the Manitoba Dental Association that we will, hopefully with the co-operation of honourable friends opposite, introduce that legislation as quickly as possible next session and receive expeditious passage of that legislation. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, given that the proposed amendments are certainly in the interests

May 21, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2265 of the public and protect the public from unfair practices in the dental profession, would this minister be prepared to speed up the process for introducing those amendments in this sitting, especially since we on this side of the House would be prepared to co-operate now and expedite such matters? Mr. Orchard : Mr.

Speaker, under ordinary circumstances, I would take my honourable friend's word at value, but I have introduced another piece of legislation which we had some attempt to have rapid passage around, and such co-operation disappeared very rapidly for whatever reason. We will make every effort to introduce the legislation at the next sitting. I would hope that my honourable friend will live by her word and pass that legislation as quickly as possible. Mr.

Speaker, let me indicate to my honourable friend that there are a number of provisions within the current legislation which allow many of the undertakings, which are viewed to be necessary, possible under today's legislation. What is requested, as I understand it, is some tightening up of the disciplinary requirements of that professional act. Manitoba Law Reform Commission Self-Regulatory Body Review Ms. Ju dy Wasylycla -Lels (St. Joh ns) : Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering if this decision to delay the request for amendments from the Manitoba Dental Association is at all related to the decision by this government on November 29, 1990, to ask the Manitoba Law Reform Commission to review policies regarding professional and occupational associations in the province, which we understand will be at least two years in the works. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, it is unusual that I have three questions from my honourable friend where I do not have to correct her in her

preamble, and this is no exception. This government did not delay the amendments--period, paragraph. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, we in the opposition have learned to become very patient in waiting for the minister to address questions raised by opposition members. I cannot think of a more direct question that was put by the member. I would ask that you would have that member answer the question and not indulge in the irrelevant comments and debates which we are coming to be accustomed to in listening to those answers from that minister. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, I would remind all honourable ministers that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. *** Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I will deal with both matters raised by my honourable friend. First, she was incorrect when she said this government delayed the amendments. That is not a factual statement, which I would like to correct. Secondly, I will tell my honourable friend that, with her co-operation, we will have those amendments.

Those amendments are not in any way tied to the issue that has been sent to the Law Reform Commission, which is to design an omnibus professional bill around those organizations which currently do not enjoy legislation granting and conferring professional status. The Manitoba Dental Association is not, Mr. Speaker, included in that review by the Law Reform Commission. Winnipeg Remand Centre Site Gasollne Seepage Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment.

The Environment Act requires the minister to investigate any and all gas leaks in the province, even if they emanate from a government edifice. Can the minister tell the House why gasoline was allowed to leak out of underground tanks for years at the provincial garage at the corner of York and Kennedy Street and why, during all those years, most of which the NOP were the government, the substantial gas leak was not detected? Was it negligence or was it willful blindness, both of which anyone in the private sector would be prosecuted for? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, considering that it is only recently that the regulations have been tightened up and we continue to improve on the regulatory regime for handling of gasoline in this province, we now have

2266 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 a much better manner of keeping track of where historical leaks have occurred. This, in fact, was an historical problem, as the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme) indicated earlier. This leak predates the present construction site by probably a couple of decades. The fact is that the extent of reconnaissance has been done by the Department of Government Services under the direction of people from the Department of Environment. That amount of research indicates that this is a long-duration seepage that has gotten into the site.

In fact, the removal of the tanks was not the issue. The fact is that the leakage probably predates that by some considerable time. All of that accumulated information is what the Minister of Government Services is bringing together in order to mitigate the impacts of this leak. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, for the same minister: The duration of the leak only serves to heighten the problem and how it was allowed to get away for all those years. I assume the minister has done an investigation.

Can the minister tell members whether or not the leaked fuel, which was substantial, seeped north under York Avenue and indeed under the building immediately to the north, the Macdonald Block, as the people in charge of the site at the time suspected that it had? •

(1420) Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I think that we need to recognize, because of the nature of this leak, that there is a long-term mitigation plan that will have to be put in place. I can assure you I have had some reason, given that there is an historical site that is a long-term base for leakage in my home town, to know that the ultimate mitigation of this takes years and years, through ventilation, through removal of the fumes so that any danger is removed from the building that may be on that site or future buildings. The fact is, Mr.

Speaker, that is probably a much more effective way of dealing with this than excavating an enormous amount of soil in that area. The problem will be that we are trying to get the gasoline ventilated out of the area, reduce the risk and reduce the possibility of it spreading any further, which will lead to the improvement of the area. Winnipeg Remand Centre Site Gasoline Seepage Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Finally, for the Minister of Government Services: Has the minister received estimates of the cost for the full cleanup of the spill and/or venting of the fumes?

Will he commit to having those cleanup efforts and those plans vetted by the Department of Environment and vetted by the MGEA, the Manitoba Government Employees' Association, whose members will have to populate that building for many years to come, so that we can be sure we do not replace one unhealthy Remand Centre with another unhealthy building? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Speaker, first of all, it was explained by the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) that there was the consideration of having to go 30 feet below York Avenue and shore along York, so it was decided that the management type of membrane to be in this facility, the options to look at that. The consultants who were used have told us that all precautions will be taken. It is not unique, and I express, it is not unique; it has been done in many parts across Canada. Free Trade Agreement - Mexico Impact on Manitoba Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, I want to, first of all, thank the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Stefanson) for providing me a copy of the Price Waterhouse report on the potential free trade agreement with Canada, U.S. and Mexico. I want to ask the minister, as a result of the concern that is expressed, particularly by manufacturers in this view, whether the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism has now resigned himself to the fact that we need some specific information on the implications of this agreement for Manitoba, and has he therefore undertaken or is his department undertaking any further statistical studies on the impact of this potential agreement? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I think, as I have indicated in this House once before, besides this survey that was conducted back in February, which was an initial survey of the business community, some 80 businesses in the province of Manitoba, that we have, since that point in time, undertaken extensive consultations with all sectors in our

May 21, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2267 economy, including the manufacturing industry, including labour, including academics and so on. We are also doing our internal research, and we will be coming forward very shortly with a position as a government. Mr. Speaker: lime for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rullng Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On Wednesday, May 15, 1991, I took under advisement a matter of privilege raised by the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). I thank the honourable members who provided advice to the Chair at that time.

The allegation in the matter raised by the honourable member for Flin Flon was that the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) had deliberately misled the House in providing information regarding the Rotary Pines seniors housing project. The honourable member did refer, in his contribution to the debate, to the existence of evidence to support his charge but neither described nor explained what that evidence was. Further, he failed to establish a prima facie case of a matter of privilege, because he gave no evidence of any deliberate intent on the part of the Minister of Housing to mislead the House.

Our rules and practices, as well as Beauchesne's, clearly indicate that a member rising on a matter of privilege must do so at the earliest opportunity, which the member may or may not have done. This is not clear. Also, he or she must provide sufficient evidence to support the claim that a breach of privilege has occurred. Because the honourable member for Flin Flon has failed to do this, I am ruling his motion of privilege out of order. Nonpolltlcal Statements Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): I wonder if I might have leave for a nonpolitical statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. That is agreed. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I rise with great sadness at having received some terribly disturbing news. It is my understanding that Rajiv Gandhi has just been assassinated in India. I know that he was not only the former Prime Minister but expected to be returned to office in the election currently being held today.

Certainly, all of us in this House will no doubt decry this senseless, horrible act of violence as obviously a means that someone was attempting to use to settle political differences. Regardless of our political views, Mr. Speaker, I guess we should all be grateful for the fact that we live in a country in which the freedoms and democratic rights that we enjoy are protected by other than violent means for the most part, and certainly, I guess, we should continue to prize our ability to express ourselves without fear in the environment in which we live.

I would expect that all of us would hope that calm will prevail and that despite this horrible intrusion into the democratic process, that democracy, peace and freedom will continue to prevail in India. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I seek leave of the Chamber for a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the Opposition have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? Agreed. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) in putting our words of sorrow on the record on the announcement we have just heard that Rajiv Gandhi has been assassinated or has been killed in the political election, that is, taking place this week in India. Of course, the people of India fought for centuries for democracy, and they conduct the largest democratic vote in the total world, over half a billion people participate and vote in the elections in that country, which in itself is a test to democracy and the principles of democratic rule that we all in this Chamber hold so dear.

The fact that there have been 40 deaths this week already, and the fact that there are further political deaths of candidates, including a candidate for the Prime Minister's job in India tells us, I think, in a strong way that the values of democracy are worth working for every day. Mr. Speaker, we are saddened and sorrowed by the news today, as we were saddened and sorrowed with the news a couple of years ago with the assassination of the former Prime Minister of India. We are saddened on the other deaths, the volunteers, the candidates in that country of India as they practise their democracy in their country.

We would wish all people of India and the free

2268 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 democratic world the greatest of peace and security of life and limb. I am sure that we all offer today to the people of India our deepest sorrow and our deepest sympathy on the deaths of Rajiv Gandhi and others who are participating in that democratic process in the great country of India. Thank you. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maples have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. Agreed. Mr.

Cheema: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). I think it is very sad, because if you review the history of the independence of 1947, how the Gandhi family and their grandfather were the pioneers in establishing one of the major democracies and what happened in 1984 with the death of Mrs. Gandhi and those effects are still felt. It is very difficult, it is a very emotional problem. The whole 780 million people are going through turmoil, conflict and violence, and basically, I think, they have failed in many ways to reach a conclusion.

I think we are very lucky in this society that we have all the luxuries. Last week I was in Moscow and lwasabletovisit 10 towns, Mr. Speaker. I think it was one of the fascinating, one of the most informative sessions I ever had in my life, to see how democracy is important. I think we should all learn from that and hope and wish that peace will come to that nation. I think it is a very difficult task and time will tell. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, before I move the motion to go into Committee of Supply, it is my understanding that we will continue in the Chamber with Education, to be followed by Northern Affairs. Secondly, I will be asking for leave of the House to bring forward the Community Support Program into the Lotteries discussion, followed by the Status of Women, and followed therefore then by the order as laid out. *

(1430) Mr. Speaker, I wish to therefore obtain the unanimous consent of the House to vary the Estimates sequence established under subrule 65(6.1) as tabled in this House on April 25, 1991 , by bringing forward the Estimates of Community Support Program and attaching these to the Lotteries discussion followed by the Status of Women. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader have leave to alter the sequence? Is there leave? Agreed. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I would also ask for leave as to whether or not we can dispense with private members' hour. Mr.

Speaker: ls it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? No. Leave not agreed. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice and Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for Community Support Programs, and Status of Women; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-COMMUNITY SUP PORT PROGRAMS Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will be considering the Estimates of the Community Support Programs, Lotteries Funded Programs, on page 24. Item 1. Lotteries Funded Programs, $5,012,800; 1 .(a)

(1) Salaries, $91,200. The minister has already given her opening remarks. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bon iface): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the employees who were moved to Stettler, Alberta, how many of them went? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, He ritage and Citizensh ip ): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, those are Western Canada Lotteries

May 21, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2269 employees and, in fact, there are five who have agreed to move. They have not moved as yet, but there are five who were working for Western Canada Lotteries who have agreed to move. Mr. Gaudry: How many work there? Mrs. Mltchelson: 52. Mr. Gaudry: Out of the 52, only 5 have agreed to move. What has happened to the other 47? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that some have already found alternate employment. Others will be here at least until September, because the move is not planned to take place until September.

I believe all of the senior management staff have contracts which will carry them through for a year, so they will have a year's pay. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 1.(a)

(1) Salaries, $91, 200-pass; 1. (a)(2 ) Other Expenditures, $30,000. Mr. Gaudry: What does that $30,000-decrease by $17,300 reflect in there? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that was one-time start-up costs for the Lotteries Distribution System which was set up as a result of the needs assessment. *

(1450) Mr. Dep uty Chairman: Item 1.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures, $30,00o.-,:>ass. Item 1.(a)

(3) Grants, $445,700- shall the item pass? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Ga udr y: Lotteries Distribution System, $566,900 compared to $902,700-oh, I am sorry. I have gone too far. No, that is it. Mrs. Mltchelson: Are you asking what the reduction was? Mr. Gaudry: Yes. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, these were one-time Lottery grants. Out of this line came the Prince Edward Award for the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, when the Prince was here. It was a one-time only initiative, and a scholarship fund of $10 0,000 was set up under this line. That money has been expended and it will not be repeated.

We put $100,000 into the Western Canada Summer Games. So that was an initiative last year. Of course, it will not be repeated this year. There were some start-up costs for housing for three recreation associations: The Manitoba Parks and Recreation Association, The Man itoba Camping Association and the Canadian Hostelling Association. Those were one-time start-up grants which will not be repeated. The Northern Affairs - Remote Communities, $66,000 to assist northern communities in raising their share towards Community Places grants. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the Commu nity Places Program, of course, has been decreased to just $3 million this year. We are carrying it on for another year and so it is decreased accordingly for northern Manitoba, proportionately. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, you mentioned Northern Affairs decreased by $66,000. Is that just the one community, or is that several communities? Mrs. Mltchelson: I am sorry. I may have given you som e incorrect in form ation. That was the percentage decrease; it was 66 percent.

What happened in the past was there was $300,000 in Northern Affairs to help the Northern Affairs communities raise their portion of Community Places money through the Department of Northern Affairs. Because the program has been decreased by two-thirds, we have gone from $9 million to $3 million in the Community Places Program this year. In fact, the decrease in Northern Affairs will be $200,000. There will still be $100,000 remaining in Northern Affairs department, so that they can contribute the communities portion to match the Community Places grant. It is just decreased proportionately to the whole program.

Mr. Gaudry: Today in Question Period, in regard to Rock Ridge community, it was mentioned, I believe-Community Places Program. Were they involved in that at all? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that would not have been the Commu nity Places Program. That would have been application through Northern Affairs, I believe, for community development, but it would not have been a capital grant for Community Places. Mr. Gaudry: There has been an increase-and I will take both of them together-the Festival du Voyageur and Folk Arts Council. -(interjection)- It is another line, okay. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 1.(a)

(3) Grants, $445, 700-pass .

2270 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 Item 1.(

b) Festival du Voyageur, $400,000. Mr. Gaudry: I believe it is a five-year agreement that you have with the Festival du Voyageur. Is this the first year that it has come into effect, and what will be the increases over the coming years? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is the second year of the five-year agreement. Most of the special agreement groups that are funded through this line in the budget will have one year only in the five-year agreement that they will get an extra allocation of funding based, over the five-year period, on what year they are placing a priority.

In fact, the Festival du Voyageur this year is developing the Grand Rendezvous which is a major new initiative planned for February of 1992. They will get in this year's allocation more money, and they will go back down to their normal level. Over the five-year agreements, every special agreement group has a year that they are targeting that they will need more money, and this is the year for the Festival. Mr. Gaudry: In the next following year, they will be going back to the $272,000? Mrs. Mltchelson: I believe they will be back to $340,000 next year. There will be an increase.

It will not be an increase over and above the $400,000, but it will be an increase according to their traditional level. Mr. Deputy Chairman: 1.(

b) Festival du Voyageur, $400,000-pass. Item 1.(

c) Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg, $400,000. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, is this the same arrangement that you have with the Folk Arts Council as the Festival du Voyageur, that next year will be a special increase? Mrs. Mltchelson: For the Folk Arts Council, this was the year that they got a boost, and that was for costs in curred for the 25th Anniversary of Folklorama. Mr. Deputy Chairman: 1.(

c) Folk Arts Council of Winni peg, $400,00 0-pass; 1. (

d) Friends of Winnipeg Pro Soccer, $80,000-pass. Item 1.(

e) United Way of Winnipeg, $2,265,900. Mr. Gaudry: I see there is an increase to the United Way of Winnipeg. Is this on an ongoing basis, this percentage in crease to the Uni ted Way of Winnipeg? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is an ongoing increase on a yearly basis to the United Way. What happens is that we pick up the total operating costs for the United Way through Lotteries so that all the revenue that is generated can go out to community groups. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 1.(

e) United Way of Winnipeg, $2,265,900- pass. Item 1.(

f) Valley Agricultural Society, $195,000. Mr. Gaudry: Excuse my ignorance here, but Valley Agricultural Society, what does it do? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, they operate as the Manitoba Stampede in Morris. Mr. Gaudry: The grant that is given, I see it is the same as last year. Is it always the same thing? Mrs. Mltchelson: That will be for the term of their five-year agreement, $195,000 per year. It is my understanding that in the fifth year of their agreement, they will get their one-time only extra commitment. Mr. Gaudry: So if I understand, all these grants here are on a five-year agreement.

Is this a new system that the government has initiated where it is always goi ng to be a five-year negoti ated agreement? Mrs. Mltchelson: Not necessarily will they only be five-year agreements, but what we want to do is re-evaluate all the programs that are being funded on a five-year basis. If, in fact, the need continues for them to be supported, we will negotiate new agreements. If the needs change and there are other commitments that we want to make based on higher priority, then-I guess, what we want to do with the whole process was ensure that we were funding based on needs.

If there is a need that continues, we want to evaluate that on a five-year basis and sign agreements. Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wonder if I might have leave to ask a question of information about the United Way of Winnipeg. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Go ahead. Ms. Barrett: I understand that it is the covering of the administrative costs of the United Way. Is there a formula or do you-how do you determine what you will pay? Do they just give you the budget and you automatically do it, or is there some control over the amount that you will give them?

May 21, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MANITOB A 2271 Mrs. Mltchelson: I am told that when the agreement was negotiated it was based on historical operating costs. It, I guess, is their operating costs plus their campaign costs. All of that had to be taken into account, and it was based, basically, I guess, on the rate of inflation when the five-year agreement was signed. So it was an agreement that was signed for the five years. Over the period of that five years, it will be a 4 percent increase per year. It was negotiated with them and it was acceptable to them and that was the agreement that was signed. Ms. Barrett: Just one more question. When was that five-year agreement negotiated? *

(1500) Mrs. Mltchelson: I believe it was signed in December of 1989, so this is the second year of the agreement. Mr. Depu ty Chairman: Item 1.(

f) Valley Agricultural Society, $195,0 00- pass. Item 1.(

g) Winnipeg Football Club, $450,000. Mr. Gaudry: Yes, the increase from $242,000 to $450,000 is probably because of the Grey Cup and being the fifth year of their agreement, where they will get-is that- Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, that is because of the Grey Cup coming to Winnipeg this year and the need for added revenue. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 1.(

g) Winnipeg Football Club, $450,000-p ass. Item 1.(

h) Capital Grants - Keystone Centre, $655,000. Mr. Gaudry: Yes, there has been no grant prior to this first one year of $655,000. What is it made up of? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is the first year of a two-year commitment by the government for expansion of the Keystone Centre in Brandon, so this will be a two-year commitment only. Mr. Gaudry: It is not a five-year agreement like the others. Why is that? Mrs. Mltchelson: This is a Capital Grant. The others are ongoing operating grants and this is Capital-one time only, two-year commitment. Mr. Gaudry: For their expansion? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item (

h) Capital Grants - Keystone Centre $655,000? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I wonder if the minister can give me some type of an idea what the Capital Grants are going to be doing at the Keystone? This is the semiannual grant that is given out to the Keystone Centre out in Brandon. Mrs. Mltchelson: This is part of our one-third commitment to a $9-million expansion of the Keystone Centre in Brand on. The federal government has put in $3 million. We, through the Tourism Agreement, have put in $655,000 this year; $655,000 next year; and the remainder of our third portion is from the Tourism Agreement.

The City of Brandon has come up with $3 million. So it is a tripartite agreement, each of us putting in $3 million for a $9 million expansion. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 1.(

h) Capital Grants - Keystone Centre $655,000-pass. Resolution 16: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,01 2,800 for the Community Support Programs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1992-pass. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? An Honourable Member: Ten minutes? Mr. Deputy Chairman: Ten minutes -(interjection) Status of Women. Okay. Ten minutes. *** The committee took recess at 3:05. After Recess The committee resumed at 3:14. SUPPLY-S TATUS OF WOMEN Mr.

Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. We are now commencing consideration of the Estimates for the Status of Women, on pages 150, 151 of your Estimates book. Does the minister have an opening statement? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do, and I have copies for the critics. I am pleased to present the Estimates for the Status of Women portfolio. This was a year to note past accomplishments. It is the 75th anniversary of the year in which women got the vote in Manitoba.

Although some groups, notably aboriginal people, did not get the vote until much later, it is 75 years since gender has been removed as a barrier to

2272 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 since gender has been removed as a barrier to voting in this province. We have celebrated this event, noting it in the House on January 28 through special publications and through a change in our International Women's Day celebration. This year the play, The Fighting Days, was presented at the Legislative Building and was very well attended. Many of those attending the evening commented on the appropriateness of such a play being performed in such an historic setting. It was truly a night of celebration.

I am delighted that the Manitoba Day celebrations also focused on the contributions of women to Manitoba's development. Events were held at The Forks on May 12, which was coincidentally Mother's Day. We were very fortunate that many of the women's organizations that were involved in the original political equality league were able to participate in this event. One of these groups, the University Women's Club, put on a play in the Walker Theatre that evening and they agreed to have the presentations of the Prix Awards-Heritage as part of the evening's entertainment.

As well as celebrating past accomplishments, the agenda for the Women's Directorate for the upcoming year is an ambitious one. We will concentrate our initiatives in two areas, violence against women and economic security. The issue of violence against women has been an area of concentration for the Directorate for the past four years, and it is unfortunate that it must continue to be so. We know that during time of economic stress there are increased attacks on the vulnerable members of a society. Unfortunately, it is still the case that women are amongst societies most vulnerable.

Changing roles, changing lifestyles and different expectations also lead to extra tension about how men and women relate to one another. These tensions all too often lead to violence. Violence is not an issue that government can solve alone. We have laws to protect the vulnerable, institutions to offer shelter to them and law enforcers to try to ensure that the laws against violence are upheld, but the violence continues. We see violence acted out on television every day. We have a generation of youn g people who have become qui te accustomed to seeing violence as a way of settling disputes.

We as a government have been proactive in dealing with violence against women. We have an extensive well-funded emergency shelter system for victims of abusive relationships. We have funded counselling programs for abusers, sexual assault and rape victims and domestic assault survivors through such programs as Klinic Evolve and Women's Post Treatment Centre. We have made the court system more effective with the introduction of the Domestic Violence Court.

In spite of a nearly doubling of the domestic assault charges laid in the past year, we have been able to reduce the time for the disposition of cases from 12 to 18 months down to 3.3 months. The Manitoba Women's Directorate is a part of the implementation committee for this court. This committee is carefully monitorin g procedures and making adjustments as required. We have also been active in trying to establish preventative measures.

We believe the doubling of the number of charges laid in domestic assault in the city of Winnipeg last year was in part due to the public awareness campaign, Abuse is a Crime, that we ran. This campaign has been taken forward by shelters such as Osborne House through initiatives like the milk carton promotion with all Silverwood's milk cartons printing information on access to emergency shelters. Manitoba has also been the lead province for the Ministers responsible for the Status of Women in working with all of the provincial Attorneys General to review the issue of women in the criminal justice system.

The Attorneys General are prepared to act with the Ministers responsible for the Status of Women to take strong action in this area. • (1520 ) Among the issues we are considering is the relationship between sexual assault and violent pornographic material and how we can better control this type of material. In Manitoba we have already made a start. Through the classification initiative in the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, we have taken steps to ensure that controls are established in the distribution of violent and pornographic video tapes, a step that we believe is important in this struggle.

It is important, however, to remember that regardless of the regulations that are put in place, no matter how vigilant the law enforcers are, unless society as a whole is prepared to act, we will continue to see these crimes. The answer is everywhere, in the language that is used, in the way

May 21, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2273 we teach children to play together and in the material that we use for leisure. Our goal in all of these initiatives is that women must feel safe. The recent assaults on the women of our community have led us to rethink the safety of our cities. The Department of Family Services has seconded a staffperson from the Family Dispute unit to work with the Safe Streets project of the Social Planning Council. Part of this project is to develop models for conducting safety audits of city buildings and leisure areas.

We realize as well that an important part of a holistic approach to the prevention of violence is that material presented to children in schoo ls emphasizes co-operation and nonviolent resolution to disputes. The role of the teacher in the classroom can be critical. The Women's Di rector ate is producin g a compendium of resources that are available within the education systems across Canada. We expect to publish this directory in the fall. It will assist educators to access material suitable for use in their classrooms.

Attitudes must change and we, as a government, will continue to play our role in this increasingly important area. Economic security for women also continues to be a fundamental focus for the Directorate. We will shortly have announcements based on ongoing work with the Departments of Native and Northern Affairs and Industry, Trade and Tourism that will confirm our commitment to partnership with the women of Manitoba in their pursuit of economic independence. It was my pleasure earlier this year to tour part of the province with Selma Rudderham from the Women's World Finance project in Cape Breton.

This project, an affiliate of the Women's World Bank has stimulated interest in both The Pas and Winnipeg, and my staff will continue to work with the interested groups. As well, as a result of the forums, I am holding a series of meetings with women's groups on specific issues identified as areas of concern. I have invited all participants to write to me personally if they have issues that need further action to resolve. We are particularly pleased that we have been able to increase the number of co-operative projects in which we participated over the last year.

The Directorate was active in the planning and operation of Business Women's Week last year and will continue to play a supportive role this year. Business Wo men's Week had over 2,500 participants last year and produced an outstanding series of events. We have been participants in the planning and design of the upcoming June conf erence, "Alternatives: Directions in the Nineties to End the Abuse of Women." We are working with immigrant women in their outreach efforts to make their organization better known across the province.

We have been active with the aboriginal women in their lobby to have the Aboriginal Healing Lodge, planned by the federal Department of Justice, located in Manitoba. We have conducted training workshops, acted as facilitators and have been resource people on over a hundred occasions to different women's organizations in the past year. The co-operative approach to Manitoba Day with the participation of many women's groups is another example of the partnership that we have been pursuing with Manitoba women.

In the past year, we have significantly increased our contact with the women of Manitoba through the maintenance of two Outreach offices, through a series of round tables, through meetings with community groups, through more co-operative projects, and through a tour taken by the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women to eight communities. Both the round tables and the tour by the chair and the executive director of the Advisory Council were to better explain the distinct roles of the directorate and the council and to establish better communications with Manitoba women outside the Winnipeg perimeter.

In pursuing this better understanding of roles, the chair of the Advisory Council has raised a concern about the name of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women. It is frequently confused with the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women, an outside lobby group. At the request of the council, an amendment will be submitted this session to change the name to Women's Advisory Council of Manitoba. We have been pleased that we have been able to positively respond to so many of the Advisory Council's initiatives.

Last fall when the council reacted to the tragic murder-suicide which had taken place, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae) quickly appointed Dorothy Pedlar to do a review of policies and procedures dealing with domestic violence. We anticipate the results of this review

2274 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 within the next two months. The Advisory Council has recommended an interdepartmental approach to dealing with family violence so that information and support can be shared betw een the Departments of Justice, Health, Education, and Family Services. I have worked in conjunction with my colleagues to heighten awareness of the issues and all these portfolios. As well, in January of this year, the Advisor y Coun cil co-sponsored the Winning Women : Power and Ethics Conference, encouraging women to become involved in the decision-making process.

The Advisory Council submitted their report on single-parent families last month. The plight of the single parent is one that we as a government take very seriously. Since we have been in office, we have completely revamped the access to social assistance for single parents. All single parents now have immediate access to provincial social assistance without any waiting period. This has helped to alleviate the inequities that may have existed in municipalities.

As a government we commit close to $2 million annually to the Single Parent Job Access Program to respond to the special training and support needs of single parents. We have amended the Social Allowances regulations so that earnings of children who are attending school are no longer deducted from the family's benefits. We recognize that single parents need special supports. We are carefully examining the recommendations of the Advisory Council in this area. With my colleagues, the Ministers of Labour (Mr. Praznik) and Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer), I met with the Advisory Council to discuss their recommendations. We have asked them to provide more information on some of the recommendations contained in the report. We have, however, also received comments from other groups such as the Women's Resource Centres, who have raised concerns about some of the recommendations. This is important feedback which we are also carefully examining. I have been pleased with the co-operative working arrangement that has been developed between the Advisory Council and the Women's Directorate.

We believe that it is through such co-operation that we can best serve the women of Manitoba. At meetings with cabinet and with individual ministers, the advice of the Advisory Council has been thoughtful an d they have established themselves as a valued advisory body. We all recognize that this was a year when difficult fiscal decisions had to be made. I am pleased to say that we have been able to maintain operational funding to the Status of Women portfolio to ensure the ongoing function of the Advisory Council and the Women's Directorate.

The only reduction in this portfolio were nonrecurring expenditures and staff turnover. The Action Plan that was released this year on March 8 contains over 100 initiatives. They are evidence that we, as a government, continue to treat the issues concerning women seriously; however, there is still much to do. The issues facing women today are complex. The solutions are difficult and will only be able to be realized in the long term. We believe the most successful and productive way to approach these issues is through co-operation and partnership with women of Manitoba regardless of political stripe.

We have this year created opportunities to celebrate the accomplishments of women. We believe that through supporting, celebrating and encouraging women in their roles as leaders, we will help to make Manitoba a better, safer place for all. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We thank the honourable minister for those remarks. Does the critic for the official opposition party, the honourable member for Wellington, have an opening statement? Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Deputy Chair, I have very few comments to make in way of an opening statement and will make most of my comments as I ask specific questions.

I look forward to being able to talk about these issues. I think the minister, in her opening remarks, has clearly stated that this is an area that crosses many departments. I think it is very important that the dialogue and the communication, not only between the various women's groups in the community, but also within the various government departments, is open and listened to. I will actually not say anything more and deal with the issues as they arise in the line-by-line Estimates. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We thank the honourable member for those remarks.

May 21, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 2275 We will now start by dealing with Item 1. Status of Women. First, we will invite the staff up and the honourable minister can possibly introduce them. *

(1530) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to introduce my staff. Doris Mae Culton is the ADM of the Women's Directorate; Myroslava Pidhirnyj is Senior Policy Analyst with the Women's Directorate; and Ruth Mitchell is the Executive Director of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women. Mr. Deputy Chairman: I thank the honourable minister. Would the honourable member for the second opposition party present have any opening remarks? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): No, that is fine. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Thank you. Item 1. Status of Women 1.(

a) Advisory Council on the Status of Women: 1. (a)

(1) Salaries $14 6,300. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, under the Salaries item there is over a $10,000 decrease in the Professional/Technical area, even though there is still a single Staff Year there. Can the minister explain that decrease? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, one staffperson left and another one was hired. I guess just the classification level-it is still the same classification, but the new staffperson started at a lower level within that classification. Ms. Barrett: Can I get some background on the new person in that Professional/Technical area? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the person is Betty Nordrum. She is a policy analyst, a nurse by profession, was hired approximately a year ago, has an extensive background in the women's community, a member of the Junior League. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, I just note one other question on the expenditure page, and then I would like to ask some questions about the actual activities of the Advisory Council. In Other Expenditures, there is a $200 decrease in the actual expenditures.

I am wondering if the minister can explain how the Other Expenditures are going to remain virtually the same in light of the goods and services tax, inflation and other cost factors. What will happen to make those numbers remain the same? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, government does not pay the GST. I guess there was an overall reduction across government. It is for postage, so there will be $200 less spent on postage as there will be reductions in expenditures throughout government on postage. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Deputy Chair, I realize that the goods and services tax is not paid by government, but there is in the overall budget of the government, I believe, a 6 percent inflation rate. In the throne speech and in the budget discussion, it was agreed that was the figure that the government was basing its own Estimates on, generally. I am wondering if the minister can explain how the Other Expenditures items in this line are going to remain virtually static. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess we all have to look at ways to economize somewhat.

I am pleased to say-and I know, for whomever had sat in on my Estimates for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, there were reductions in staff, there were reductions in grants. We had to make some choices that were difficult choices. In this area, we have been able to maintain the status quo. There has not been a reduction other than the postage reduction, and I guess when growth in revenues is at zero percent, I am pleased to say that we were able to keep the money that we kept within the Status of Women portfolio to attempt to maintain.

We are just going to have to look at spending a little more efficiently and effectively. I believe that we will, with the staff that we have in place in both areas, be able to manage and to ensure that the work that has been done will continue to be done. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, can the minister explain what comes under Personnel Services in this particular line? There is a definition in the front, but I am not quite sure how it relates to this item. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, those are the per diems for the council members. Ms.

Barrett: On the council meetings, are there the same number of meetings scheduled this year as have been in the past? Are they all again to be located in Winnipeg which, as I understand, they have been in the past? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that there are no current plans at this point to meet outside the city of Winnipeg. I think we

2276 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 discussed last year in Est imat es that the requirement under legislation is for six meetings per year. In some past years, there were up to as many as nine meetings. There will be seven meetings this year. Ms. Barrett: Can the minister, just to trig my own memory, tell me how many members of the Advisory Council are from inside the city and how many outside? I do not need a total listing, but just a number. Mrs. Mltchelson: Eight rural and six urban. Ms.

Barrett: I would like to talk a bit about some of the Expected Results as have been listed on page 12 of the detailed Estimates, the Supplementary Estimates. The first one is the presentation of recommendations to the government regarding women and nontraditional occupations. Can the minister give us an update on what exactly that is, what the recommendations are and what the process has been up to date? Mrs. Mltchelson: I am informed that it is available in the Advisory Council's office. It is a paper with a-it is a review of different literature that is available, but, in fact, it is not a report. Ms.

Barrett: So there are no recommendations attached to this item? Mrs. Mltchelson: No. •

(1540) Ms. Barrett: Is this literature review currently available in the Advisory Council's offices? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, it is available through the office. Ms. Barrett: The second result is the examination of the existing substance abuse programs for women. Can the minister provide an update on that item? Mrs. Mltchelson: The review of existing programs has been completed. The analysis at this point has not been completed and will be worked on. Ms. Barrett: Is there a time frame that we can expect this analysis and report? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I am informed that the earliest would be late fall, very possibly early 1992. Ms. Barrett: Can the minister share with us what was undertaken in the review part of this examination? Mrs. Mltchelson: The review was to look at the programs that were being provided and see whether, in fact, there was any gender-specific approach to program delivery. Ms. Barrett: I might understand that there were programs in a range of agencies that were not just necessarily women's agencies and to see if there was any need to provide more detailed-- Mrs.

Mltchelson: I guess the concern by the Advisory Council was that women ·be dealt with appropriately in specific ways if there was a need for that type of approach. Ms. Barrett: Can the minister give me a sample of the kinds of agencies and programs that have been reviewed in this context? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the AFM, River House an d the Women's Post Treatment Centre. Ms. Barrett: Those are the three that have been looked at? There are no others that have been looked at in this context? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we could get a list of all of the names.

They are just not sort of readily available at the top of mine. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would appreciate that list if possible, even if it comes after the Estimates process is completed for this department. What kinds of elements were looked at or what was the process for this review? Was it a series of meetings with the people involved in these organizations or just a look at the material? Mrs. Mltchelson: I am inf ormed that it was personal interviews plus review of the materials that are being used. (Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Ms.

Barrett: Madam Acting Chairperson, were these personal interviews with employees, users of the services, board members? Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, I am informed that they were with program delivery people and administrators of the program, not those who were using the program. Ms. Ba rr ett: Who has undertaken this examination? Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, it was under the supervision of the policy analyst in the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, but it was done through volunteers in government program.

May 21, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2277 Ms. Barrett: I am not aware of that program. Could you give me a brief description of volunteers in government program? Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, I am informed that it is-and I know it is-a program of the Department of Family Services. When people come forward with specific skills and indicate an interest in working and providing a service to government, they are hired within a government department to provide that specific research or service. Ms. Barrett: In effect, they are not volunteering their time; they are paid to do this? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, I am not that familiar with the program in Family Services except-no, they volunteer their time in order to gain government experience. Ms. Barrett: Finally, I am going to be very interested in seeing this because I have some past connection with, in particular, Women 's Post Treatment Centre, and I have a sense of what some of their concerns are. Did this review discuss with those people, those service deliverers, their recommendations, their concerns? Were they asked to participate, or was is sort of said, this is what we are doing and you will participate?

Was it voluntary? Mrs. Mltchels on: Madam Acting Chairperson, they were asked whether they would be willing to participate. In fact their recommendations will be taken into consideration. Ms. Barrett: Finally, will a report be available for members of the Legislature and the agencies that participated in this? Mrs. Mltchelson: At this point in time, it is the intention of the Advisory Council to provide that. Ms. Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, could the minister explain the next activity, which is to examine current funding models for women's programs?

What are the funding models, and what areas of concern are there that precipitated this activity? Mrs. Mltchelson: This is jus t at the very exploratory stage. The chairperson of the Advisory Council has indicated to me-and she is talking to women's groups out there with a sense that there should be a possibility of an umbrella organization that would help on an ongoing basis to fund programs that involve women. She is just now talking to people, to women throughout the province. As I said, it is in the very formulative stages. Ms.

Barrett: Is this something the chairperson has seen as ar;i area of concern arising out of groups or individuals coming before her saying that we need an umbrella organization or is this something that she has, through her own work, decided is a potential requirement? Mrs. Mltchelson: I guess based on her experience in the women's community she has a sense that in fact women's organizations should be looking for alternative sources of funding other than government, and this migh t be a way to accommodate that. Ms.

Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, this umbrella organization would then not be a governmental umbrella organiza tion, it would be a nongovernmental organization. *

(1550) Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Ms. Barrett: Is there a sense of how this umbrella organization would be set up or established? Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, I am informed that it is much too early to tell what form it might take. I have just been informed it is not something that-I guess the Advisory Council is playing a lead role in facilitating but in fact would not be an administrator of this. They are consulting with women's organizations, seeing whether there is a sense within the community that :his kind of umbrella organization should be set up.

If in fact it should, they might be part of the facilitating of helping it get off the ground. Ms. Barrett: Do we have a time frame as to when there might be some report on this? Mrs. Mltchelson: I am informed at this point, no. Ms. Barrett: The handbook of services available for single parents, can we have an update on that handbook? Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, I am informed that the infor mation has been compiled. It has not been put into handbook form as yet. The earliest that could be would be this fall, possibly next spring. Ms. Barrett: When it is available, where would it be distributed?

Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, we have been in consultation, of course, through the Women's Directorate and the Advisory Council,

2278 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1991 indicating that if this kind of information is available, it would be nice to have it within the women's network system, through the computered system in the Outreach Offices of the Women's Directorate and in other offices, maybe doctor's offices, Family Services offices and a broad distribution. Ms. Barrett : What kind of services are being looked at? I see it is for single parents. Is there a particular focus? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Anywhere I guess that single parents would need to go or be able to go for advice and services, whether it be resource centres, whether it be government departments, women's groups and organizations, so a fairly detailed listing of ways to access services or consultation. Ms. Barrett: I would like to have the minister explain or outline a bit the monitoring procedures on constitutional reform, women in education and family violence. What are these procedures? How are they being undertaken? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, as things come up through the media, it is monitored as women call the Advisory Council with issues of concern. As there are new developments, they are monitored on an ongoing basis. Ms. Barrett: What form does the monitoring take? What comes out of that monitoring, what action? Mrs. Mltchelson : Madam Acting Chairperson, anything from recommending to a minister of the government some action be taken, whether it be in family violence, it was one of the recommendations of the Advisory Council that the Minister of Justice and Attorney General (Mr.

Mccrae) responded to with the Pedlar Commission. They write letters on behalf of organizations. They were involved, of course, with the government Meech Lake Constitutional debate. They have circulated a constitutional questionnaire around the province for input from women and women's organizations, that kind of thing. Ms. Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, which kinds of women's or ga niza tions were circulated the questionnaire and :s it in the process of being analyzed now? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, there are 19 5 women's organizations that received qu estionnaires and also Women's Institute, provincial women's council, YWCA, the Resource Centres and many individual women throughout the province. Ms. Barrett: Would it be possible to get a copy of the questionnaire and what is going to happen with the results of that questionnaire? What is the next step for it? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, the Senate House Committee has asked for this type of a process and when the responses are obtained, the Advisory Council will compile those r.esponses and present them to the Senate Committee by June 15 . Ms. Barr ett : What concerns regarding family violence are being-what monitoring is being undertaken in that regard? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, as I indicated earlier the Advisory Council on the Status of Women came forward to government indicating concerns regarding sentencing, regarding women falling through the cracks in the justice system, at recommending a more co-ordinated approach. As a result of that, of course, the Pedlar Commission was set up. That was one area of genuine concern. Ms. Barrett: I am wondering if this is the area or if it is the Women's Directorate to talk about Abuse is a Crime? Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, that would be under the Women's Directorate. Ms.

Barrett: I will wait on that until we get to that point. What is the women in education areas? What areas are being looked at in that regard? *

(1600) Mrs. Mltchelson: They are part of a coalition on women's education, and they are monitoring, I guess, the number of girls or women within the school system who are maintaining-they have a real concern that math and sciences are as much of a priority for girls in high school as they are for boys. They monitor the dollars and the participation of girls in the physical education system too. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chairman, who is involved in this coalition? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, there was an open invitation by COLE, Canadian Congress on Learning Opportunities for Women, and MACE, Manitoba Adult Continuing Education, for anyone who wanted to be a part of discussing learning opportunities for women. There are many organizations that are involved: the Women's Directorate is involved; the Core Area Initiative is involved; the Advisory Council on the Status of Women; CEIC from the federal government; and

May 21 , 19 91 LEGISLATIV E ASSEM BLY OF MANI TOBA 2279 Red River Communi ty College. Many organizations are involved. Ms. Barrett: Is this an ongoing thing? Are there anticipated any documents or recommendations, or is that kind of thing not coming out of this? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, they are a group that identifies issues and plans strategy on how to deal with those issues. They are a lobby group and probably will become more active as time goes by. They deal with the issues by letter writing or some sort of co-or dinated effort to heighten public awareness. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I just have a last general question, and I am not sure if it is here or at the end. I am wondering again, as was mentioned actually in the last two sets of Estimates, that there is a real lack on the part of the Advisory Council, and I also believe on the part of the Women's Directorate, in taking initiatives in areas such as child care, pay equity, affirmative action, reproductive health.

As well, I do not see anything in here in the government's plan or the minister's plan to lobby and talk with her federal counterparts and the federal government on these issues, and in particular, the impact that the federal government's financial fiscal policies are having on women in Manitoba and women in poverty in Manitoba. I am wondering if the minister could explain what appears to be a major lack in focus on the part of the Advisory Council and the entire department? Mrs. Mltchelson: I do not know whether I should try to answer both the Advisory Council and the Women's Directorate at the same time or not.

I know that the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women did take a lead role in the consultations on new reproductive technology and the presentation of that to the federal government. They obviously did take a leadership role when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) went down. The Premier and the other party Leaders went to Meech Lake. As far as the Women's Directorate goes, we certainly are taking a lead role on women and violence and violence within the justice system.

I am the lead minister at the conference in June for the Ministers responsible for the Status of Women on presentation of a very strong position, working very closely with the Attorneys General, who want a paper with recommendations not just to be looked at and tossed aside, but an action plan for dealing with violence against women. I think that we as a province are much further ahead of other provinces when it comes to our family violence court. All provinces are looking very closely and monitoring what is happening here in the province of Manitoba.

It has become something for other governments to take a serious look at implementing in their own provinces, so we are taking the lead role in some areas. I guess one of the issues for the court is child abuse. That is one area-and obviously on pornography, we have introduced the video classification system in the province. That will be one of the issues that will be discussed at the meeting, the upcoming meeting in June, too. Ms. Barrett: I understand the difficulty in trying to separate the two areas. I have a great deal of difficulty in my own head as to which

part I should be responding to. I think I will talk about the family violence area when we get to the Women's Directorate. I think that will probably make more sense. I still see again, not that these issues are not important to women, but that there are, particularly in these difficult economic times-a nd we probably will agree to disagree on the causes of those difficult economic times-b ut we all understand that we are involved with them, that some of the actions on the part of both the federal and the provincial governments are having a dreadfully negative impact on the women in the province.

I just wanted to ask the minister if she is talking with her cabinet colleagues and strongly urging them, making them aware of the impact of some of these fiscal decisions which appear to be based on fiscal issues rather than on human issues.

I refer directly, most specifically, I think, to family services and health and education, those areas that are the areas that deal most directly with people and the problems that some of the federal and provincial actions are causing for women in this province in areas such as child care, pay equity and those kinds of things that mean a great deal to women and families in this province. I just, as I said, I am not seeing much in either of these divisions of the ministry of action in some of those areas that have been mentioned for a couple of years now. *( 16 10)

2280 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 2 1 , 19 91 Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do have much dialogue and discussi on regardin g in itiativ es for women throughout government, and I think our record does stand very clear in the area of wife abuse and shelters. We have made major increases in funding. We all recognize and realize that there is more to do, that we have to continue and we have to continue to work and put our money into priority areas. I know that, as a fact, we have increased substantially the funding to wife abuse shelters.

We have done a lot in the justice system whereby we have the Family Violence Court now. In housing subsidies, there are some 490 new units that have come on stream in 1990 and, in fact, 75 percent of those 490 units are filled with single parent women. You know, there has been much accomplished and we will continue to work. I know that we have had to make priority decisions over the last budget year and try to maintain the services and maintain the subsidies in day care to those families that really need it. We have and we will continue to place priority in those areas. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Deputy Chair, I realize that this division does not have nearly the resources that are required of it to be able to function as well as, I think, we all would like to see it, and it certainly has not from the moment of its initiation. I have one final question in this area. In the Estimates in January 1990, which is two Estimates ago, Mrs. Hammond says, we are doing a study on the impact on women of the GST. I am wondering if the minister can provide a follow-up or a progress report on that study. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that all of that information was compiled and rolled into the whole analysis that was being done by the Department of Finance on impact of the GST. Ms. Barrett: So we have seen in this last budget that, for example, in the social allowance system where there is a basic increase of 4.5 percent in the basic social allowances, as an example, then that figure would have taken into account the impact of the goods and services tax on social allowance recipients. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that the whole analysis that was done would have had an impact on the decision that was made to provide the increase. Ms. Barrett: So, in effect, there is no available analysis specifically on the impact of the goods and services tax on women. It would have been part of whatever studies were done internally. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it was all rolled into the total analysis of the impact of the GST. Ms. Barrett: Just one final comment on that, and then I will conclude this area of questioning.

I would suggest that in none of the departments that have an impact on services for women was that analysis accurate or adequate. It should be looked at, yet again, in light of what the federal government itself has said is the impact of the goods and services tax and the Canadian Consumers' Association report, that the impact of the GST on the purchasing power of everyone in this country has been vastly underestimated.

So I would urge the minister to urge her cabinet colleagues to undertake another analysis and with a focus specifically on the impacts of the goods and services tax on people like single-parent families, women in poverty, families with children, that kind of thing. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member for River Heights has a number of questions that she would like to be asking, but unfortunately she is still in the educational Estimates. I, myself, have a number of questions that I would like to put forward and take this opportunity to do so.

I know that the Advisory Council on the Status of Women has done a lot of good work in the past. No doubt, we look forward to receiving much more work in terms of recommendations and information and so forth from the council. My first question is dealing strictly with the council itself in asking how often does the council meet? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, seven times a year. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) had asked some questions in terms of the make-up of rural versus city.

I would ask the minister in terms of a further breakdown, are there minorities, immigrant women who are on the-- (Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair)

May 21 , 19 91 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2281 Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, there are four aboriginal women and two visible minorities on the council. Mr. Lamoureux: I wanted to move on down to some of the concerns. I know that there is independent research that is done from the council, and I would ask the mi nister through the council, what type of independent research they have taken under their own in the last year? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, the single-parent families report was one area that was researched, substance abuse, work analysis that has been done is another area. That has been basically the only outside research that has been done. Mr. Lamoure ux: I ask the minister, is there a procedure, is it a report that they file with the minister when they do their research? *

(1620) Mrs. Mltchelson: Madam Acting Chairperson, we receive an annual report for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women in September of each year indicating the activities that have been undertaken. It is tabled in the House. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister say when the last one would have been tabled and when we could anticipate the next one? Mrs. Mltchelson: Last year it was tabled around the middle of October for '89-90 and it will be tabled for '90-91 -it will be prepared by September of 1991 . Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Acting Chairperson, I know there are certain areas, of course, that the government puts emphasis on. I was wondering if the minister-and she has to forgive me, I have not been here for the full proceedings. Has there been an emphasis on any specific areas that have been designated out to the Advisory Council. Maybe the minister can advise me as to what role does the minister play in terms of asking for or soliciting information? Mrs.

Mltchelson : The Advisory Council undertakes activities on their own based on their decision on what they feel is important to be doing, but the one area that I did ask for advice on was when we talked about impl ementing a video classification system. I met with the chair of the Advisory Council and asked her to consult with women's organizations. We met from time to time to update her on what was happening with the video classification system. They took a genuine interest and I think played a very supportive role in getting that initiative up and underway. Mr.

Lamoureux : Does the council meet with different women's organizations throughoutthe year to find out what concerns are out there? Mrs. Mltchelson : Yes, they meet with many groups and organizations and discuss issues that are of community concern. Mr. Lamoureux: I am wondering if the minister might be able to tell me if the other subject areas, in particular regarding immigr ant women, are those issues something that come up time after time. Has the council done anything to address some of those more specific problems that they have? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I am informed that one of the members of the council is part of the Imm igrant Women's Association, so she reports to the council on activities that are ongoing in the immi grant women's community. They co-sponsor events from time to time with the Imm igr ant Women' s Association. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) Mr. Lamoureux: Has the council had any research done in any of the imm igrant women's problems that have been aroused ei ther throu gh this representative on the council or through different meetings or requests from the minister's office?

I am not only talking about this specific year but in the last number of years? Mrs. Mltchel son: I am informed only as part of other reports. If it was women in the labour force and that kind of thing, then there would have been a component on imm igrant women but nothing specifically. That might be handled through the Women's Directorate. Mr.

Lamoureux: I would imagine that there are a large number of different immigr ant groups that do have some specific problems, whether it is at the home or at the work force, that immigrant women have, to a certain degree, more disadvantages and would encourage that the council look into some of these problems and bring forward the independent research, because the independent research proves to be very valuable to all members of the Chamber and one could say to Manitoba as a whole.

I would ask the council through the minister if, in fact, they have any intentions on what their major issues are going to be in the up and coming year?

2282 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21 , 19 91 Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, part of their ongoing activities are to publish a handbook for services available for single parents, and we talked about that earlier with the critic from the official opposition. They will maintain their monitoring of procedures on constitutional reform, developments of women in education, concerns regarding family violence, women in the justice system and continue to bring forward issues of concern on equality and priorities that, from time to time, are brought to their attention. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the justice system interests me somewhat. This is the first time that I have heard about that. Is there a certain aspect that they would be looking at? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, I guess I have indicated, and just earlier today, too, that it was a result of the Advisory Council making a recommendation to government that we look at injustices within the justice system. In fact, as a result of them coming forward, we acted very quickly and appointed Dorothy Pedlar to do a review of the justice system .

We should have the results from that study that has been undertaken within the next couple of months. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to move on to a couple of the issues that they have dealt with. One, of course, is the single- parent family. A major concern that I have, and I know the minister had mentioned it somewhat briefly, is the whole qu estion of housing. I want to be very specific by looking at battered women. Once a woman has found herself being taken advantage of and ends up in Osborne House, there is a relatively short period of stay in Osborne House.

I am wondering if the advisory board has looked into-or the minister's office if the board has not-h aving some type of an interim shelter, or did the single -parent family study take a look at that component? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that would probably best be asked under the Women's Directorate. In fact, there is second-stage housing, and then there is also a priority placement policy within the Department of Housing for victims of domestic abuse to be placed into regional housing.

That was where I indicated that there were 490 family units committed or constructed in 1990, and 75 per cent of those are occupied by single-parent mothers and their children. There is a priority placement policy in place in the Department of Housing, but that probably should be discussed under the Women's Directorate. Mr. Lamoureux: I will hold off till the Women's Directorate, if I am here at that time, to discuss that. The single-parent family research that was done, what was the prim ary focus of that or the recommendations that came out of that? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I think one recommendation that came forward was sort of a central point of entry into access for government services, and that was one of the key recommendations.

There were many other recommendations-let us see- elig ibility cutoffs for both shelter assistance for family renters, that is the SAFFR program, substantially reducing the tax-back rates on earned income in the Work Incentive Program, providing child care and travel subsidies for those enrolled in social allowance sponso red training and em ployment, and implementing a transition period whereby benefits would continue or taper gradually during the first year of employment rather than being automatically cut off. *

(1630) Mr.Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I noticed she had mentioned the SAFFR program, a program that I am somewhat familiar with. I know that there has been some concern that that particular program is not being funded or has not been given the resources necessary in order to better enhance individuals who req uir e that . What is the recommendation coming from the council regarding this particular program? Mrs.

Mltchelson: The specific recommendation says eligibility cutoffs for both the shelter assistance for family renters, that is the SAFFR program, and the CRISP program be raised to approximate the low-income cutoffs as determined by Statistics Canada. That is the recommendation. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am not quite sure if I caught what the minister had meant by that. Are they endorsing the program? In short, are they recommending that it be enhanced? Mrs. Mltchelson: They are recommending that it be available to more people. Mr. Lamoureux: How is the minister following up with that recommendation?

Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it would be a recommendation to the Minister of Family Services, because in fact he deals with the program money for these programs. I know a lot of

May 21 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2283 the recom me ndations had fairly major cost implications, and they were presented to us around the end of January when I met with the Advisory Council. We were already into the budget process, and the report was released publicly, I guess, after the budget was released. In fact, any major recommendations with major cost implications are going to have to be evaluated over the next period of time, and any adjustments will probably have to wait until the next budget year.

There just is no more money at this point in time to go around, so all of the options will be looked at. There are many that merit extra consideration, and they will have to be looked at. The Minister of Family Services has expressed some interest in a couple of the recommendations and wants a bit more information, but I do know that there are some concerns in the community, too, from Women's Resou rce Centres that have indicated some concern about the recommendations.

I think we have to listen to both the recommendations and the concerns in the commun ity and ensur e that whatever we are implementing is done to the benefit of the women who need suppport. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on a question of process, I would ask the minister what she feels her role is when you have recommendations that are brought forward from the Advisory Council? Does she have a role to pay, or are the recommendations just deferred to the appropriate departments that are responsible for the individual programs and will use SAFFR because they are most familiar with the SAFFR program? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Well, certainly the Minister responsible for the Status of Women has a role to play, and that is ensur ing that she work s co-operatively with her colleagues in government to ensure that programs that are key and essential to the women in the province of Manitoba are looked at in a very real way throughout departments. It is the co-ordinating, just as we have been throu gh the Multicultural Secretariat and the Manitoba lntercultural Council and the minister's role as responsible for mu lticultural ism .

It is somewhat similar in women's areas, whereby there are many different government departments and many different programs throughout government that deal specifically with women, women's issues and women's programs. Family programs and all of those, I take a genuine interest in, but I do not, within my budget, have the dollars and the resources available. Each minister has a whole department to look at, and there have to be priority decisions made. We have focused our priorities over the last few years on the shelter system, on the court system, and those have been a couple of priorities.

There is obviously a housing placement priority, too. We have revamped the day care system. All of those things have taken some time, taken considerable dollars, and as we work along, we realize and recognize there is more to be done. As resources become available, we will have to prioritize those things that have yet to be looked at and put our dollars in those directions.

So it is a matter of the departments having the progr ammi ng dollars and the ability, and me ensuring, through the Women's Directorate which sits on many interdepartmental committees, that, in fact, the issues affecting women are looked at from the wom en' s perspective from the Women's Directorate, and the advice that I give as the minister responsible, with the expert input from my staff on recommendations, hopefully will be looked at in a positive light.

We try to work together and meet with other ministers in other departments as the need arises to discuss the different programs that are ongoing, and I would love to see every program for every woman in the province of Manitoba looked at and positively responded to by government. We know that the reality is that that cannot happen, so I work together with my colleagues to ensure that priority is placed in the areas that we are looking at, and as more resources become available that we look at the changing needs and reprioritize accordingly. Mr.

Lamoureux: This council has brought forward what I believe is a good recommendation, making it more available to more people. I believe it was the Institute of Urban Studies that commented that the bigge st problem with the SAFER and SAFFR programs, which are administered through the Departments of Housing and Family Services, is the fact that people do not know about the programs. If people did know about it, in particular single-pa rent families, I would imagine that the demand for the program would more than double.

I know the Minister responsible for the Status of Women does meet with her caucus colleagues every week and can put forward persuasive arguments. She talks about the establishment of priorities. I am going to give her an opinion, my biased opinion when it comes to priorities. The

2284 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21 , 19 91 SAFER program, as I say, is a program that is administered through the Department of Housing. We have the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst), who has established priorities within that department. I would suggest to the minister that she should be sitting down with the current Minister of Housing and going over some of those priorities. We could take a look at the Pines developmen

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-47a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 47a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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