Manitoba Hansard — 26 May 1994 (Sitting 34, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-34

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sess ion· Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLm No. 34 • 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 26, 1994

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CAJtSTAJRS,Shuon CERD...U, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonud, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Geny, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Hany, Hon. ERNST, Tun, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonud S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical AffiUatlon CONS'ITI1JENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GllLESHAMMER, Huold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HELWER, Edwud R. IHCKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATinJN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH. Gord MALOWAY, Tun MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Geny McCORMICK, Norma McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH. Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darre n, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Hany STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jeny SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris Bmrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage la Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfield Parlt FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

2376 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 26, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�EPROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS ACCESS Program Funding Mr. Speaker: I have rev iewed the petition of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the pri vileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules . Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispe nse. Mr. Speaker: Dispense . An Honourable Member: Read it, ple ase. Mr. Speaker: Oh, you want it read? The Qe rk will read it. Mr. Clerk (Willi am Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the pro vince of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of stude nts from disad vantaged backgrounds ha v e been able to get post-secondary education and training; and

WHEREAS these students have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, in cluding nurse s, teachers, social workers, en gineers amongst othe rs ; and

WHEREAS the fe deral go vernment has elimina ted their support of the AC CE SS program ; and

WHEREAS the pro vincial go v ernment has cut support by 11 pe rcent in 1993 and a further 20 perc ent in 1994; and

WHEREAS the enro l bn ent has alre ady dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to pre v ious cuts; and

WHEREAS the pro vincial go vernment, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the cu rren t year, is also turning it into a st udent loans program which effect ively dis mantles the ACCESS program. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislati v e Ass embly requ est the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Manne ss) to consider restoring the fu nding to ACCESS program. Mr. Speaker: I ha v e rev iew ed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Fries en). It complies with the pri vileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to ha v e the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispe nse. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of students from disadvantaged backgrounds have been able to get post-secondary education and training; and

WHEREAS these students have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, incl uding nurse s, teach ers, social workers, engineers amongst others; and

WHEREAS the federal government has eliminated their support of the ACCESS program,· and

WHEREAS the provincial government has cut support by 11 percent in 1993 and a further 20 percent in 1994; and

WHEREAS the enrollment has already dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to previous cuts; and

WHEREAS the provincial government, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the cu"ent year, is also turning

2377 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 it into a student loans program which effectively dismantles the ACCESS program. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Ed ucat ion and Tra ining (Mr. Manne ss) to con sider re storing the funding to ACCESS program. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Martindal e). It complies with the privile ges and the prac tices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Hon ourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of students from disadvantaged backgrounds have been able to get post-secondary education and training; and

WHEREAS these stude nts have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, including nurse s, teachers, social worke rs, engineers amongst others; and

WHEREAS the federal government has eliminated their support of the ACCESS program; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has cut support IJy 11 percent in 1993 and a further 20 percent in 1994; and

WHEREAS the enrollment has already dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to previous cuts; and

WHEREAS the provincial government, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the current year, is also turning it into a student loans program which effectively dismantles the ACCESS program. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training to consider restoring the funding to ACCESS program. •

(1335) Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos). It complies with the pri vileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petiti on read? Some Honourable Membe rs: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of students from disadvantaged backgrounds have been able to get post-secondary education and training; and ·

WHEREAS these students have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, includ ing nurse s, teach ers, social workers, engineers amongst others; and

WHEREAS the federal government has eliminated their support of the ACCESS program; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has cut support by 11 percent in 1993 and a further 20 percent in 1994,· and

WHEREAS the enrollment has already dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to previous cuts; and

WHEREAS the provincial government, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the current year, is also turning it into a student loans program which effectively dismantles the ACCESS program. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training to consider restoring the funding to ACCESS program. Mr. Speaker : I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Barre tt). It complies with the priv ileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition r e ad? Some Honourable Members : Dispense. Mr. Speaker : Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS under the ACCESS program hundreds of students from disadvantaged backgrounds have

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2378 been able to get post-secondary education and training; and

WHEREAS these students have gone on to successful careers in a variety of occupations, including nurses, teach ers, social worke rs, engineers amongst others,· and

WHEREAS the federal government has eliminated their support of the ACCESS program; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has cut support by 11 percent in 1993 and a further 20 percent in 1994; and

WHEREAS the enrollment has already dropped from over 900 to roughly 700 students due to previous cuts; and

WHEREAS the provincial government, in addition to cutting support for the ACCESS program by over $2 million in the current year, is also turning it into a student loans program which effectively dismantles the ACCESS program. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training to consider restoring the funding to ACCESS program. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mrs. Lou ise Dacquay (C hairperson of Committees) : Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member fo r La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd. for 1993, and, as well, the Supplementary Inf ormation for Legislative Review for Manitoba Energy and Mines. INTRODUCTION OF BD.. LS Bill ll- The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act Bon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 11, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur 1' Assembl�e l�gislative, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 209-The Manitoba Environmental Rights Act Ms. Norma McCormick (Osbo rne) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for The Map les (Mr. Kowalsk i), that leave be given to introduce Bill 209, The Manitoba Environmental Rights Act (Loi sur les droits environnementaux au Manitoba), and that the same now be given and received for the first time. Motion presented. Ms. McCormick: Mr.

Speaker, the underlying principle of this bill is the declaration that all citizens have a right to adequate and saf e environmental resources, to clean air, clean water and uncontaminated land. In granting this right to Manitobans, it imposes a collateral obligation on their government as a whole and not simply on any single minister or department to protect the environment. It establishes an environmental commissioner whose responsibility it will be to conduct investigations and reviews of practices , proposals and policies which may be hanDful to the environm ent. Mr.

Speaker, rights cannot simply be conferred without naming the ways in which these rights are to be exerci sed. This bill outlines the ways in which Manitobans will have an increased role in environm ental protection. Mr. Speaker, I recommend Bill 209 to all members of this House.

2379 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 Point of Order Ron. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, from the remarks made by the member for Osbome, it seems to me that the hiring of staff and the paying of same is a mo ney bill that would require a royal recommendation, which I do not think the member has. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, the question may arise, but it would be more appropriate on second readi ng. It is a member's right to be able to introduce legislation.

H the govemment House leader wishes to puiSue that at that point in time, I am sure it will be dealt with, but at this point in time it is in order, I beli eve, for the member to be able to introduce this at first reading. Mr. Speaker : On the point of order raised by the honou rable gover nment House leader, the honourable opposition House leader is quite correct. Until we see the bill-we have not seen the bill, so you could be right and you could be wrong, sir. We will allow this matter to proceed until such time as we get an opportunity to see the bill. ••• Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? Some Honourable Memb ers: Agreed. Mr. Speaker : Agreed and so ordered then. • (1 340) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery , where we have with us this aftemoon from the J.R. Walkof School fifty-six Grade 5 students under the direction of Miss Linda Bergen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard). Also, from the Minnedosa Collegiate we have fifty-five Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr.

Daniel Kiazyk. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture , Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshamm er). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this aftemoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Kenaston Underpass Justification Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the FJ.I'St Minister.

The largest pro ject approved by the three levels of government dealing with the infr astructure program to date is the Kenaston pro ject, the underpass prop osal requesting some $29 million of taxpaye iS' money be spent We have received a lot of advice from individuals concemed about this pro ject, both in the community and outside of the community , that there is really no ma jor economic benefit for this pro ject, and it has very questionable merit in terms of the amount of money that is being proposed by the provincial govemment.

We are also aware that the City of Winnipeg is to complete their own transportation plans as part of Plan Winnipeg with extensive public hearings . Those transportation hearings will not be comple ted until December of 1994, yet this pro ject is app roved by the three levels of govemment prior to this pro ject. Does the Premier have any cost-benefit analysis that he can table in this House to allow us to be having this as the No. 1 priority in terms of spending for infrastructure, and why would we approve this pro ject when the study under Plan Winnipeg is not even to be completed until December of 19947 Ron.

Gary Filmon (Premier) : Firstly, Mr. Speaker, this is not the No. 1 priority. There have been hundreds of pro jects announced under the inf rastructure program. In fac t, the amount of money that has been allocated to this point is $1 60 million for several hundred pro jects. So it is one of many priorities . I might also say that as was our desire, we have had a p rocess of consultation that has involved the two levels of govemment in addition to ourselves;

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2380 that is, the fe deral government and the municipal gover nment being involved in stating their priorities , in agreeing to the pro jects that have been put fo rth. This was a pro ject that was a high priority for both the fe deral governme nt and the City of Winnipeg. As one of the partners to the pr ocess, it is one of the programs that was included in hundreds of pro jects for an expenditure in excess of $16 0 million. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I asked the Premier to table any cost-economic benefits analysis that would be available and why we are app roving this pro ject before the transportation plan under Plan Winnipeg with pub lic consultation -not consultation just with governments in back rooms but with public consultation-is completed.

I would like to ask the Premier a second question, and I would still like him to consider my first request for the analy sis, but the second question is: The government in its press release indicated that truckers and motorists will have uninterrupted fo ur-lane access from Highway 75 south of Winnipeg all the way to the Winnipeg International Air port. On March 21, 1991, the Premier wrote one of his constituents and said that it is his government's priority, and it is committed to diverting as much large truck traffic to the Perimeter Highway as possible .

It seems to us and citizens in the area that all we are doing is facilitating truck traffic from the location. Even with the relocation to the Sterling Lyon Parkway of the intermodal centre, we are fa cilitating more traffic of trucks to the airport, Mr. Speaker, and again it does not make any economic sense. Can the Premier please tell his constituents and citizens why he is pro ceedin g? •

(1345) Mr. Fil mon: Mr. Spe aker, the member for Concordia has a good memory, but it is short. He, of course, conveniently fo rgets that when he was the Minister of Urban Affairs, he put extra money into the capital spending of the City of Wmnipeg and a carrot of $1 0 million on the understanding that they would create the Chief Peguis bridge and freeway that co�cted northeast Wmnipeg that included his constituency and that of his then-member for Rossmere , Mr. Schroeder. It included, of course, the constituency of his colleague at that time, Vic Schroeder, and he was very interested in having that constructed.

They did not do any cost-benefit study on that, Mr. Speaker, no cost-benefit study whatsoever. All they did was say, for political reasons, we want that bridge to go and we will give you $1 0 million if you build that bridge. So let him not suggest now that there should be some different type of analysis than he was prepared to do when he was in the position to make decisions. Mr.

Doer: The Premier has so many errors in his answer, but the biggest error of his answer is that he did not answer the ques tion about his contradiction between truck traf fi c through Kenaston Bo uleva rd up to the airport, contradicting the letter he wrote to his own constituents in 1991. I would like to ask the Premier another question, and I hope he can answer it. Mr. Speaker, there are now plans underway to have a combined air cargo trucking centre close to the airport.

A number of proposals would call on rail, air and truck transportation to be intermodally perf ormed near the airport on a differem rail line than the one which the government is now building an underpass under. I would like to ask the Premier, why did the government not consider this proposal in terms of its future implications for jobs and economic development Why are they going ahead with the underpass on Kenaston, Mr. Speaker, which is obviously contrary to other proposals that are in the economic arena now in Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: My unde rstanding, Mr.

Speaker, and I believe it is the understanding of both Mr. Axworthy and the member for Winnipeg South, Reg Alcock, that this is a key link in that proj ect in order to ensure that there is-[interjection] The member does not want to know the answer, I am sure.

2381 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 94 Home Care Program Appeal Committee Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, last year the government changed the rules regarding home care se rvices, charged a user fee for home care equipment and charged a user fee for ostomy supplie s. Today , we are glad to hear that the minister has announced an appeal committee and an advisory co mmittee on continuing care. We welcome this anno uncement. Even though it is one year too late, we welcome the ann ouncement.

Can the minis ter advise this House whether the appe al committee will have the power to change decision s in home care , even though the government rules and regulations that were changed last year say othe rwise? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I app reciate the honourable member 's support for this me asure which I believe will create a bu ffe r between home care clients and the service provider, i.e., the government itself.

If you put yourself in the position of a client of home care and you are not comf o rtable with the service you are getting, you really fe el in somewhat of a helpless position whereby you only have the government to tum to. So I bel ieve this app eal panel is the right app roach and the right thing to do. The criteria which have bee n in exi stence from the beginnin g will initially be the criteria by which the ap peal panels will make their decisions.

However, as they do their wo ik, they will see and no tice, no doubt, certain trends in the delivery of home care, and working alongside the Home Care Adv iso ry Council , we expe ct to rev iew all of those policies and delive ry mechanisms and so on, Mr. Speaker, so that if improvements are the res ult of recommend ations made by either or both panels, then the clients, the people we work for will be all the better for it. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister advise the House whether an individual or individuals who now have to pay for home care equipment , suppli es , or ostomy equipment will have the abili ty to appeal that dec ision, that user fee , to the appe al committee the minister has set up? Mr. McCrae: The se committees and panels are there to assist people who get caught up in the bureaucracy which sometimes develops in programs like Home Care .

These advisory councils will be there to make available advice to government, and rather than try to tell them what their advice ought to be, as the honourable mem ber seems to suggest we ought to do, I think we should show a little respect for the process and hear from the advisory council or the appeal panel at the app ropriate time. • (13 50) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I think the minister 's answer is no . APM Management Review Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klld onan): Mr.

Speaker, my final sup plementary to the minister : Can the minister fina ll y today make the Connie Curran report on home care publi c, and will he have the advisory committee that is lo oking after continuing care changes, will he let the advisory committee look at the Connie Curran home care report? Ron. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : I certainly will , Mr. Speaker. The advis ory council will have the advice that flo wed from the proje ct available to it. I have told Dr. Con ne lly and Miss Kei rstead today that there are a couple of things about this that I would like them to bear in mind.

On e of the things is that I have a concern that has not bee n resolved yet respecting any suggestion that home care services might be contracted out to personal care homes in light of the fact that personal care homes are now the subject of a review which we ann ounced recently. I did no t fee l it was ap prop riate that that be part of the review at this time. I am also not interested in reco mmendatio ns that would get rid of the servi ces of lice nsed practical nurses in the program. I am interested, however, as a result of the APM work that was done last year, in imp rovements to patient care.

I am inter ested in improved inf onnation system s, imp roved co-o rdination and

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2382 imp roved equ ity of asses sme nts fo r pati ents and clients of the Home Care pro gram. Manitoba Telephone System Fane oil Corporation Agreement Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speake r, my que stion is fo r the Minis te r responsible fo r the Manitoba Tel ephone System . We have bee n advised by government st aff that the re will be an announce ment in the coming weeks of a fu rthe r deal with the Faneuil Corpo ration.

They are al ready here and have a th ree -ye ar cont ract fo r telemarketing services pr eviously done by the Manitoba Telephone System. Given recent events, the staff at the Manitoba Telephone Sys tem are truly in a state of un knowing and flux at that corpo ration and I think deserve some answers about the ir fut ure and about the co rporation's future . My question fo r the ministe r: What is the nature of the further deal with Faneuil? I reco gnize det ail s cann ot be fo rthcoming today, but can he tell us what is on the table of ex isting services which MTS now off ers?

Surely he can com e clean on that and put that on the table . What is bei ng off ered of cwre nt servi ces cwrently offe red by Manitoba Telephone System as part of this arrangement? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speake r, the mem ber makes reference to a th ree -yea r cont ract that has been signed to market value-added services that MTS has to off er to the public. I can tell the mem ber that they have been very, very success ful, in creasing the activity at MTS with those value -added services.

So it is a ve ry si gnifi cant plus, increasing the oppo rtunity fo r more jobs at MTS bec ause more se rvices are bei ng bought by mem bers of the Mani toba public who are made aware of the servi ces that MTS has to sell. Any further discussion with Faneuil about any future ope ration is based on ex ac tly the same thing, more services to be sold, more use of the Manitoba Telephone System netwo r k to gene rate mo r e revenue and more jobs within the system .

It is an attempt to expa nd the use of the system by services that are marlteted in side and outside the province through the use of a joint ven ture ope ration. The mem ber realizes the discussions that have bee n going on fo r some time are not concluded, and we cann ot say anything more othe r than the intention is to have mo r e jobs, more use of the ser vice in the pr ovince of Manitoba to do services inside and outside the province . Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Spe aker, furthe r for the same ministe r: Can the ministe r ind icate, because this is a critical time -t wo of the unions are meeting tonight to decide whethe r or not they will take anothe r vote on the layof fs ve r sus the Bill 22 days-whethe r or not the cu rrent arrangement which is bei ng negotiated will have any effe ct on the cu rrent st aff complement at Manitoba Telephone System? Will there be any layo ffs from MTS reg ardl ess of ove rall employment in the pr ov ince? Are MTS jobs at risk as a part of this deal?

Can the ministe r at least give that ass urance to Manitoba Telephone System employees today? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speake r, the membe r must unde rstand technology. Ove rall , through telephone systems around the wo rld, pa rticul arl y in No rth America, more technology actually leads to less jobs. Our vision here is to find ways and means to have mo r e se rvices ma rketed by the MTS and th rough MTS to solidif y mo r e jobs in MTS, absolutely. We are looking at the upside of this to pr otect jobs that are there and expand the oppo rtunity fo r more jobs.

That is the sole intent that we are about he re, and if we do not get those jobs in this pr ovince they will happ en somewhere else in No rt h America. So we are chasi ng them, pursuing them so that there are more jobs, more network activity in Manitoba. • (1 355) Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speake r, finall y, fo r the same minist e r, an ar ran gement with Mr. Steve Childe rhouse, fo rme r head of the Winnipeg Chambe r of Comme rce, was ex tended recently. That arrangement with him, and reading from the

2383 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May26, 1994 original Order- in-Council, was for the writing of a definitive agreement required for MTS, Manitoba Trading Corporation and the Faneuil Corporation developing a structure for working processes and documentation. What is the nature of Mr. Childerhouse's work? Is it with respect to this further arrangement? Can the minister indicate when we can expect to see and get definitively the things that are on the table from the province, from Manitoba Telephone System and from the Manitoba Trading Corporation as part of this deal? Mr. Findlay : Mr.

Speaker, I think I have given my answers so far on that. We have the intention to create more jobs. In his profession, he knows that it is not an easy process to write agree ments and those agreements are worthless until they are signed. That is the process we are in. Education System Physical Education Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): The fitness and health pro fessio nals organi zing and supervising young people at the Fit Week launch today find it incongruent that the four ministers sponsoring the venture are all cutting back on fitness, physical education and health prevention programs while claiming to support all of these initiatives. My question is for the Premier. Will the Premier clarify this gove rnment's policy in terms of preventative health care and in terms of quality daily physical education? Does this government support the program?

Whom does the Premier believe should teach this program providing active living skills, physical education and health and fitness education to young people in Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, my government and I personally are very supportive of encouraging healthy lifestyles in Manitobans. We believe that ed uca ting and enco uraging Manitobans to maintain a healthy diet, nutritious intake, to play sports actively, to maintain their physical fitness are all very positive things that ought to be encouraged.

I personally try to always ensure that I participate so that I can be an example of that, and I know that the member who asked the question leads a very healthy and active lifestyle herself. I believe that is a very important part of what we do here, and I would certainly encourage it in every way possib le. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that was a specific answer to the specific question that I asked, which was about daily quality physical edu cation program which this government's Education minister is planning to eliminate by eliminating phys ed professionals in the schools.

My second question for the Premier: Why is the government penalizing future generations due to the habits of their parents who did not benefit from these programs, and does the Premier agree that these programs should be eliminated because, as the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) seems to have indicated to the specialists in this area, that they are not showing people- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, we are not eliminating the programs and I reject the fact that the parents of these children did not have these programs.

My in volvement on a lifelong basis and commitment to physical education and healthy lifestyle is based on what I learned when I was in school and based on the dedication of tremendous numbers of teachers who were dedicated to helping children, to working wit h them, to coaching, to being involved in all of those things. I might tell you that they were dedicated because they believe in it, not like the member for Radisson, who believes that people should only do that if they are paid extra to do it. I reject that totally. Ms. Cerilli : Mr.

Speaker, we believe that all people of Manitoba should be able to participate in physical education and fitness programs, not only if they can afford to belong to- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, with your question. •

(1400) May26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2384 Ms. Ceril li: My third question for the Premier: Will the government listen to young people of Manitoba when they responded overwhelmingly to the High Schools Athletic Association smvey and said that sports and athletic and cultural and arts programs help them stay in school, help them develop life skills, make school more enjoyable and make them feel good about themselves? Will they listen to those young people and ensure that schools have strong arts, culture and athletics programs so these children have a positive alternative 7 Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, my government and I could not be more committed to that process. I participate several times a year with the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association in various events they put on because of a commitment to ensure they carry on the good work that they have been doin g for deca des and generatio ns. [interjection] Now we hit it, Mr. Speaker. The member opposite goes like this: money. She believes that the only answer to everything we do in society is more money, more taxes, higher taxes. More money is all that she believes makes the world go around.

There are thousands of dedicated people who organi ze , coach, participate in spor ts throughout our society who do not do so because of the money they are getting, who do so on a volunteer basis. I reject totally the attitude that is demonstrated by the member for Radisson. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, to clarify- Mr. Speaker: On a point of order, what is your point of order? Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, the Premier should look at his budget and- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson, you do not have a point of order .

You asked for clarification, and that is not a reason to use a point of order. Louisiana-Pacific Co. Environmental Assessment Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, when the Louisiana-Pacific project was ann ounced we said we welcomed the project but we wanted to see it done right, and we wanted all aspects of the project to be looked at, in one-stage environmental review to see that all concerns were addressed. However, the government has chosen to do a split review and review the plant and then the forest separately.

I want to ask the Premier why-when he was in Swan River, he said that all environmental and forest management concerns will be addressed before Louisiana-Pacific will begin work on the proposed plant in Swan River. Why did the Premier say one thing in Swan River and then proceed with another plan with a split review? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker, unlike the member for Swan River, who tries to tell them in Swan River that she supports the project and then comes here and with her colleagues does everything possible to undermine and kill the project, I have been consistent I have said that it will have a proper environmental asse ssment and review, and indeed that is what it is getting. Ms. Wowchuk: I have never spoken with a forked tongue like this Premier. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I want to caution the honourable member. You are on the line. Aboriginal Issu es Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan Rive r): Mr.

Speaker, since serious concerns have been raised by aboriginal people in the area regarding their tradi tional land use areas, their treaty land entitlements-and I have raised those issues in the House with this government and they have refused to address these con cerns-I want to ask the Premier if he will direct representatives of his government, the ministers of his cabinet to deal with the aboriginal issues that are of a concern in this deal in a better way than they did with the Repap deal so that this deal will not be in jeopardy. Let him clear the record. I am not opposed to the proposal.

I want it done right.

2385 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May26, 1994 Ron. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, the member for Swan River will fi rst try and undennine it due to environmental concerns, then she will try and kill it by alleging concerns about- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the Premier should be aware of Beauchesne 481, Citation (e), indicating that members shall not "impute bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged by a Memb er." This is also reinforced in Beauchesne Citation 484.(3) .

The member for Swan River has been very clear in her position. We know the Premier is desperate , but he should not make those kind of imputations in this House. He should withdraw those categorical comments immediately- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. I do not believe that the honourable First Minister was imputing motive. ••• Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I make no imputations about the member for Swan River. Her actions speak louder than any words that I could use.

In her desperate atte mpt at politics to try and kill that project, I tell you that she is not going to get away with it. We will respect all environmental laws. We will respect all aboriginal rights in this province. We will respect the right of people to propose projects and to go through a proper hearing proces s and to be judged on the basis of all of the laws and regulations that we have in place to review and analyze them, and we will respect the decisions of the aean Environment Commission. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure the Premier that I am only raising the concerns of my constituents because I am concerned about them as they are concerned. Wood Supply Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River) : Since logge rs who have operated saw mills are concerned-because even though they have raised thei r concern wit h the Minis ter of Natural Resour ces (Mr. Driedg er) about having a long-term wood supply, now they are becoming increasingly concerned because they have not gotten assurances from this government that there is an adequate wood supply to meet all the needs of the people in the area.

When is the minister going to address the concerns raised by the loggers and e nsure that they have a long-term wood supply to continue their saw mill operations along with working supplying wood for the mill? When is the minister going to address these concerns that loggers have raised? Ron. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resour ces) : Mr.

Speaker, I have always sort of accepted the premise of the member for Swan River that she was supportive of the Louisiana Pacific project, but the kind of questioning that has taken place leads me to believe that there is more to it than the statements she is making . l want to say to the House and members here that I have met with the permit holders, I met with the member, and I have given them the assurance that we will look after their requirements over a period of time. She continually keeps coming back and saying : When are you going to make a commitment?

Let me clarify fir st of all, there are two components here. There are the quota holders who have a guaranteed cut all the time. The permit holders are people that apply for a permit from time to time to have a cut. We are dealing with those people, have given them assurances, and the member herself has said to me, privately when we had a discussi on, that the permit holdeiS are not right on cue either. Mr.

Speaker, I have given the member the assurance that I will worlc together with her pennit holders, but I will not be held up to political ransom by her raising questions in here and then coming and confirming with me otherwise .

May26,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2386 Municipal Board GimH Project Review Mr. Jerry Storie (F1in Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Premier was saying earlier that one should be judged on their actions and not their words. The Premier talks in every comer of this province about the importance of small business and the importance of the jobs that small business creates. The people of Gimli have seen some of the Premier's actions.

The Court of Queen's Bench Justice Scollin has just indicated to the Chudds that the actions of the Duguids in this matter and their opposition to this important job creation initiative in Gimli simply does not show any common sense. The judge goes on to say that never mind that Mr. Duguid may not actually be sitting-as the Premier suggested he would not-in judgment on this issue, he goes on to question whether his colleagues who are on the board are going to be passing judgment and assessing a member of their very own panel and asked the question, is there not something offensive about this.

My question to the Premier is: Will he now cancel the hearings that are scheduled for tomorrow? Will he save the taxpayers that money, allow this project to begin construction so that the people of Gimli who want this construction to proce ed, the council who are continuing to support the judge will not have to incur further delay and frustration simply for political reasons? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice until I get a copy of the remarks to which the member is refetring. •

(1410) Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, these are the official transcripts that I am reading from. The judge makes it very clear that this is a travesty. My question to the First Minister: If he wants his actions to coincide with his words, will he now agree to save the taxpayers' money, stop the duplicate hearing that is not necessary, override his minister and do what is right? Mr. Filmon: I will take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Storie : Mr.

Speaker, my question to the First Minister is: Given that this project has been delayed now for month s be cause of th e government's interference, will the First Minister please advise the Minister responsible for Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) that this hearing shall not go ahead? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I find it incredible that the member for F1in Ron would suggest that we ought to wipe out all of these processes for land use review, wipe out everything. He said it has been delayed for months. It has been delayed because it has gone through due process. It has gone through the municipal council.

It has gone through the various processes of review. It has gone through the Interlake planning board. If he says that is a needless delay, I disagree and I reject that totally. Cross-Cultural Training Members of the Legislative Assembly Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples) : Mr. Speaker, the Mani toba Coalition against Racism has organized a rally to be held today in front of the Legislature. Organizers hope the rally will convey a strong message that we as a community must unite against hate, prejudice and intolerance in society.

My question to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship: A 1990 report by the Manitoba Intercultural Council re commen ded that the government of Manitoba provide a one-day, cross-cultural sens itization workshop to all members of the Legislative Assembly . Why has the minister chosen to overlook this recommendation? Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenshi p): Mr. Speaker, within our Citizenship Branch, we have been worldng very actively with the community to put in place programs to address this particular issue.

Most recently, we have developed the Respect for Workplace Program that is now being looked at very favourably by the Civil Service Commission

2387 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May26, 1994 and the government union. This program has received wide acclaim, not only from government employees but also from the private sector. I think this initiative that we have undertaken is a very positive one , and it is being welcomed by employees of government Mr.

Kowalski : Will the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship tell us why his government requested in a 1990 letter sent by the then-Mini ster of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship to the chairperson of the Manitoba Intercultural Council that the MIC provide the government of Manitoba with recommendations on initiatives to deal with racism and then ignored the recommendations? Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to review correspondence that the member is talking about dating back four or five years.

I will tell him that the program we have put in place entitled Respect for Workplace is working very well and is received very positively. As well, we have been working through the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council to work with community groups, to provide some funding for groups that want to try some experim ental program s to help sensitize the community, and these too have worked very well. Mr. Kowalsk i: In the spirit of today's antiracism rall y, will the minister take a strong stand against hate , intolerance and racism and implement a cross-c ultural awareness program for MLAs? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that this government has taken a very strong stand , and I certainly look forward to getting into the Estimates debate with the member and other critics. Hope full y, that will happen fairly soon so we can look at these programs in quite a bit of detail . Recently , I did attend a forum in his area of the city.

One of the members of the opposition was there at that particular event, and through going to events like that and getting a better understanding of the issue, we in government can put in place programs that can be truly eff ective, and I hope that on another occasion, petbaps he too can attend those events . Vital Statistics Branch Decentralization Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, as a result of the bungled Wang Canada deal on job creation and technology development, a penalty was paid by Wang Canada to the government, and on May 12, the Finance minister said that the penalty was going to be used to upgrade computer systems in the Legislature , which is contrary to the prom ises made that, in fact, it would be used to establish a data cen tre for vital statistics in Dauphin as part of the decentralization plan .

I want to ask the Minister of Finance to tell the House why the allegedly over $2-million penalty against Wang Canada was not used to modernize and decentralize the Vital Statistics branch to Dauphin and deliver the 21 jobs that were pro mised to Dauphin in 19 90 under the decentralization plan. Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, the member for Dauphin is actually mel ding two separate issues. A review was done by the Department of Family Services on the viability and the cost benefit of potentially transferring Vital Statistics to Dauphin under the decentralization initiative.

My understanding is that study showed that there was not a cost benefit to be derived to the province by making that move, and that is a separate review pr ocess under decentralization, which is separate and distinct from our ability to take advantage of the cre dit that was due the province from Wang. As outlined in the press release and information provided back a couple of weeks ago, the $2.1 million has been utilized to upgrade capacity , to upgrade equipment requirements and to provide a network that links this building with all aspects of government. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fac t that various news media, including Broadcast News and reporter Glen Johnson, who now works for the Tory caucus, stated clearly-and I have the transcripts-that the Minister of Fmance and the Minister of Rural Development both said on numerous occasions that the negotiations were ongoing to decentralize Vital Statistics to Dauphin

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2388 in connection with the Wang penalty , can the Minister of Finance explain why be continued to make those kinds of statements to the media in Dauphin and Broadcast News, to leave them with the impression this was still going to happen when, clearly, the government bad no intention to honour its commitment of 19907 Mr. Stef anson: Mr. Speaker, I would be interested in the member for Dauphin providing me with copies of the transcripts that be bas been ref ening to. As I have already responded to him in the first

part in terms of quotes attributed to me, in the first instance we have been reviewing the viability. Family Services was reviewing the viability of transf ening Vital Statistics to Dauphin. That was a separate initi ative. If that was deemed to be of a cost benefit, there was an opportunity to potentially accomplish it, in part, through the penalty and credit that was due under Wang. The separate decision was made that there was not a cost benefit to be de rived by making that transf er.

So that was a separate decision and the ability to utilize the credit was then put to use in the facility right here in this building to maximize capacity. So, Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear that the review of the Vital Statistics transfer to Dauphin wa s done on a stand- alone basis. If it was determined to be vi able and of benefit to government, then there was an opportunity to use the credit, but because the first information indicated it was not viable and not of a cost benefit, therefore , obviously no need to use the credit. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, this is the first time this minister is making it clear. He bas not made it clear over the last number of years. He bas made it clearer to the contrary. I want to ask the Premier whether be will agree with his Minister of Rural Deve lopment (Mr.

Delkacb), who said as late as September of 1993 that be still bas not, and I quote, given up on meeting the commitments to Dauphin under the decentralization plan, whether in fact be agrees with that state ment, whether in fact they are still undertaking to meet that commitment and precisely in what form will that take to meet the commitment made under the decentralization plan of 1990. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, despite the opposition of the New Democrats, we have proceeded with decentralization that bas resulted in over 600 jobs being decentralized into rural Manitoba.

There are many, many towns, villages and communities that are absolutely thrilled by the effects of decentralization, the additional jobs and opportunities that it bas brought to their community, the investment that bas taken place there and the people who are wotking there and contributing to the economy. We will continue in our plans to ensure that the decentralization initiative remains a very positive and productive part of government policy. •

(1420) Public Housing Child Safety Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Housing. On April 3, a five-year-old child bad his foot severed, and on April 8, very tragically, a five-year-old was killed in a railway accident in Brandon. I appreciate there are no easy answe rs. 1bere is no one answer to eliminating accidents, but ev erything reasonable should be done to enhance the safety of children and to eliminate or minimize possible future accidents .

I wrote to the Minister of Housing a few weeks ago requesting her and her staff to consider having fe nces installed in units owned by Manitoba Housing to help keep the small children in the safety of their yards. My question to the minister is: Has she bad an opportunit y to review this matter, and is she prepared to take some action? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing) : Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Brandon East for rais ing the question and the issue with me.

2389 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 Indeed, my staff bas looked at that situation. We will be proceeding at some point this summer with building fences along ·the lane to try to save the cbildren from finding themselves in that kind of a precarious position in the future. Mr. Leonard Evans: Very good. Thank you very much. I appre ciate the positive answer of the Minister of Housing. Rail Industry Safety Review Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Just by way of supplementary to another minister, the Minister of Highways and Transportation, I also wrote to this minister a fe w weeks ago to ask if he and his staff would review the overall issue of rail safety with the fe deral minister of transportation to enhance and promote a greater degree of saf ety, especially for young childr en, respecting rail traffi c. I would ask the minister if he and his staff have had an opportunity to do this, to approach the fe deral minister, who, I know, has the chief responsibility for rail traffic in Canada Bon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Tran sportation): Mr. Speaker, indeed, what hap pened in Brandon was a most unf ortunate incident. A certain accident in Winnipeg in the west end was also very unf ortunate, with a woman and a young cbild being killed. I can tell the member that we wrote a letter to the National Rail Sa fety Committ ee, which is reviewing some activity they might get involved in to improve rail saf ety, and we very strongly stressed the two incidents in Brandon and the one in Winnipeg in terms of examples of we have not done enough in promoting rail saf ety.

I can assure the member that the railroads, CN and CP, continue their education policy. The Manitoba Safe ty Council also continues rail safety education policies. Everybody is onside with trying to improve the saf ety, but I can assure the member that this government, this minister bas done what he can with working with the fe deral people to make them aware of the incidents so he can improve saf ety in the future. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPO�CALSTATEMENTS Canada Fit Week Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Radisson have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms.

Marianne Cer illi (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to make a nonpolitical statement to recognize Canada Fit Week. A fe w of us enjoyed the events outside this morning in the sunshine with a number of young people from the provi nce. It helped, I think, once again to raise our awareness of deteriorating fitness levels. I am sure all of us have a difficult time making time to take care of our health and fitn ess, and it reminds us that we need to do that. I think, Mr. Speaker, we have to recognize also the prof essionals worldng in the areas of fitness , physical education, recreation, health prevention.

These prof essionals do a lot of work in preventative health. We talk a lot, I think, about how we want to have a fo cus on health and a foc us on healthy communitie s. Nowhere is that more well done than by taking the time to participate with friends or fa mily in fitness activitie s. Fitness activities are a unique way of people developing relationships and coming together to enjoy a common positive activi ty. I think that through this kind of activity many people develop skills that they can apply in other areas of their lif e.

So I think we cannot undervalue the positive benefits that all of these kinds of prof essionals and activities and programs are providing to the community . I just want to reiterate one of the messages that comes from Participaction, and that is that we all have to just get out and just do it. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maple s have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples) : I would like to add my comments about Fit Week. My own personal experience-as a young cbild of five , I spent half a year in the hospital with a heart

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2390 condition, and only through participation in sports over the years in school and in high school and with the help of professiona ls, with the help of community membe rs, voluntee rs who coached me, family membe rs was I able to become a relatively healthy person. So I commend the province for celebrating this event It is important in everyone 's life, and I want to acknowledge the week. Thank you. Mr. Speaker : Does the honourable Minister of Hea lth have leave to make a nonpolitical statement ? [agreed] Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and thanks also to my colleagues. I was joined by the honourable members who have spoken earlier today, and the Min ister responsible for Sport (Mr. Ernst) and the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) and the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) and a whole lot of other people , young people, older people, all of them interested in fitness and observing Canada Fit Week. The suggestion, I think, flows from that we observe fitness at all times.

I took particular note of the eff orts that the Fit Week committee must clearly go to to put on a kickoff like we saw today at the Legislature, and I think a word of commendation should go to all of the people involved in making sure everybody is where they should be at the right times. I also made note of the presence of the Oty of Winn ipeg Police bicycle officers today and the leadership they displayed, and they helped some of us who were out there riding bikes today, so I think it is nice to have that kind of a presence. They were particularly popular with the younger people who were there today.

All of us MLAs, I am sure, were out there thinking we were going to be the big che ese, and the people who carried the day were the Winnipe g City Police bicycle patrol peop le, who added so much to it So, Mr. Speaker, a word like that is due, I think, to all of the people involved today, and as Health minister, obviously I encourage this, because a life of fitness is a happier and healthier life. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if you would canvass the House to see if there is unanimous consent for Committee of Supply to sit on Wednesday evening, June 1, from 7 p.m. to 11 p.m., with the provisions of subrule 65 .(9) to apply for the entire sitting. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to sit on the evening of June 1, between the hours of7 to 11 p.m., and that our same rules would apply that we traditionally use in Committee of Supply, 65.(9), I believe it is? Is that agree d? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, House leade rs have had some discussi ons with respect to certain adjustments in the Estimates sequence .

I think if you canvass the House you will find there is unanimous consent to set aside the Estimates of the Departments of Education and Training; Industry, Trade and Tourism; and Environment, so that the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Roo m 255 may begin consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture for today. Mr. Speaker: Is there unan imous consent of the House to alter the sequence of departments being considered in Room 255, to set aside Education and Training; Industry, Trade and Tourism; and the Environment, so that we can proceed with the Depa rtment of Agricultur e sta rting today? [inteijection] That is not what he said. Okay. Let us try this again. Order, please. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Spea ker, I want to make it perfectly cle ar that we are, for today only, considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. We may or may not next week either continue with that process or revert to previous processes. For the time be ing-for today at least -we will be considering the Estimates of the Depa rtment of Agricultur e. We will decide amongst House leade rs next week as to the process that occurs at that time.

2391 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 Mr. Speaker : That is easier. Is there leave to bring forward the Department of Agriculture for today, set aside the rest of them? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: In that case, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef ans on), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House res olve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the honourable memb er for Sei ne River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Family Services. COMMITT EE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) AGRICULTURE Mr. Deputy Ch airperson (Marcel Laure ndea u): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be conside ring the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture . Does the honourable Minister of Agriculture have an opening statement? Bon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture) : Yes, Mr. Deputy-Chaiipe rson, I have an opening statement , and I would like to provide my colleagues in the committee with copies of same. I would like to read the statement into the record. I want to begin by saying that I look forward to worlcing under your leadership, Mr. Deputy Chair . [inteij ection] Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chainn an. You will note that I referred to you as Mr.

Deputy Chairman. Any other ref erence to you I would regard as an insult to your manlin ess. I am pleased to have this opportunity to present and discuss the 19 94-9 5 Estimates for the Manitoba Department of Agriculture. I am delighted to be back once again as Minister responsible for Agriculture, and it is an honour for me to restate our department 's commitment to the agriculture and food sector, an industry vital to Manito ba's economy and rural communities . Agriculture and food . It is extremely important to Manitoba's overall economy.

Agriculture 's indir ect and dire ct contr ibution to Manito ba's GDP in 1992 was 11 .8 percent. For every dollar of net income produced by the primary agriculture , about $1 .70 is generated in Manito ba's overall economy. Agriculture directly or indir ectly accounted for about $1. 09 of production in Manit oba's econom y. In 1992, agriculture con tributed some 20.1 percent of the total added value for the goods producing sector in this province. Some 41 ,000 persons in 19 92 were directly employed in agriculture.

In addition, about 22,700 persons were employed in other areas of the provincial economy as a direct result of the agricultural industry. For that same year, the total employment generated by agriculture was some 13.2 percent of Manitoba 's labour force. Another way of putting it, one job in eight was the result of agriculture production. For every two Manit oba jobs created on farms in 1992, almost one job was created in other areas in Mani toba's economy. Moreover, agriculture is directly responsible for thousands of other jobs in other parts of Canada.

Despite the adverse wea ther conditions and disappointing crop yields in many areas of the province last year, noneth eless, total farm cash receipts were above a year earlier levels. An increase in crop receipts resulted from increased marketings and prices for barley, oats, canola, dry peas and potatoes, more than offsetting the lower returns from other crops, principally wheat. Manit oba's diverse crop base tends to moderate the effect of crop losses on overall farm income .

Higher payments out of the GRIP and Crop Insurance were of fundamental importance to this ye ar's income figures to our primary produce rs. Buoyant cattle markets pushed cattle prices to record le vels last year which together with incre ased income from hog, poultry and PMU operations raised livestock receipts by about 9 percent. •

(1440) May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2392 On the cost side, Mani toba producers paid lower stabili zation and crop insurance premium payments , lower interest rates, fuel and pesticide costs last year, which is a welcome reversal of the constant cost pressure that prim ary pr oducers operate under. Overall reali zed net farm income in 1993 was estimated at 48 percent above the '92 estimate. I appre ciate that this comment will probably raise some questions, but I will be pleased to explain them in more detail when we deal with the issue specificall y.

National and international trends impacting on agricultu re. As we approach the balance of this dec ade , the financial health of Manito ba's agriculture and food industry is sound. International trade will open up opportunities for Manitoba export pr oducts both within North America and offshore, under the NAFrA , North American Free Trade Agreement, that came into effect on January 1, 1994, after being ratified by Canada, the United States and Mexico. NAFrA , we anticipate , creates a market for about 350 million people , with an output of about $7 trilli on per year.

This agreement opens up new export opportunities for Manitoba agricultural pr oducts. More specifically, Manitoba gains improved market access to 85 million people in Mexico. GATT-with the new GATT, the General Agreement on Tarif fs and Trade, agre ement, Manitoba will have improved access to other countries. GATT will bring about the international elimination of major nontariff barriers, reducing export subsidie s, fe wer trade distorting domestic support programs, and clearly defined health and safety standards .

With the impleme ntation of the GATT agreement, our agrifood industry will be faced with addressing structural changes. Government programs must be reconsidered to ensure that they meet GATT commit ments to reduce export subsidies and to minimize trade distortions. Our supply managed sector must now adapt to the elimination of inpu t quotas. However, the repl acement tariff equivalents should provide ample protection for our industries. Canada is cu rrently negotia ting with the American go ver nment on a side bilateral arra ngement.

The American governmen t is seeking to eliminate Canadian exports to the United States of wheat , barle y, su gar and sugar-containing products , and peanut butter paste. The American government is also requesting greater Canadian market access for the United States produced chicken, ice cream and yogurt. Manitoba and Canada prefer that both respective countries conclude a bila teral arran gement with reasonable access leve ls, but only if our agricultural industry is not compromised. With negotiations presently stalled, the United States has threatened prohibitively high tariffs under

Article 28 of the GATT on wheat, wheat flour, semolina, barley and malt. Canada has announced its intentions to retaliate with tarif fs on a variety of agrifood products should the United States take action on its tariff threat. The Government of Canada established a producer payment panel to recommend options for the delivery of the WGTA, the Crow, to producers , and a group to study efficiency measure s in the grain handling and transp ortation system.

The reform of the WGTA has taken on a new sense of urgency as WGT A benefits paid on shipments through the West Coast or Churchill have been determined to be an export subsidy subject to reductions of 36 percent in dollars and 21 percent in volumes under GATT. The volume reductions make minor changes to the WGTA unworkable. The Manitoba Agri-Food Advisory Council , on behalf of Manitoba, made representations to the producer payment panel and the efficiencies group.

The council has insisted upon a renewed commitment to fund levels outlined within the Western Grain Tran sportation Act and fu ll compensation of producers for changes to the method of payment and pooling. Under the heading safety nets, in add ressing agricultural safety nets, Manitoba continues to support the move from commodity-based income support to whole- farm income protection programs. The trend away from commodity-based

2393 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 income support has been reinforced by the termination of the National Tripartite Stabilization programs for cattle, lamb and hogs. Accordingly , Manitoba proposes to extend the coverage of the Net Income Stabilization Account, NI SA, to all commodities except supply management, and National Tripartite Stabilization commodities for the 1994 tax year. This would include cattle, lamb and hogs. Let me outline some of the departm ent 's objectives.

They are as follows: preservation and strengthening of the fam ily farm; reduction of economic risks for farmers through enhancement and stabilization of farm incom es; the expansion of production of agricultural commodities, especially those with potential for value-added processing in Mani toba; development and expansion of market opportunities for agricultural products, particularly international markets or import repla cement; providing opportunities for younger and beginning farmers to enter agriculture and to develop viable farming operations ; cultivation and improvement of Man itoba's soil and water resources and the environment.

Manitoba Agriculture is conti nuing to provide a department leadership role in being an agent of change. In doing so, Manitoba Agriculture is working with our strategic partners in addres sing the emer ging needs and opportunities of the agricultural food sector. We produced last year a docum ent called Vision For The 1990s. That has been reviewed and revisited and renewed and I would like to present to the members of the committee copies of that Moving Towards the Vision document that I am referring to.

It serves as a strategic road map for guiding our de cisions that are within the Department of Agriculture and our activities up into the year 2000. The foundation for develop ing our vision was based on our close working relationship with our strate gic partners. More speci fically, we developed Vision for the 1990s after extensive consultation with all our partners in the agro community. Some examples from this document are Marketi ng/Marke t Orien tation: Fresh Chilled Pork. Manit oba's agriculture is participating with the industry in examining fresh chilled pork logistics.

The department is actively working towards establishment of a commercial processing facility in Manitoba for this export-oriented product In the dairy industry, Manitoba Agriculture participated and co-operated with the Manitoba Forage Council and the Manitoba Holstein Friesian Association in a trade display-related project at the 1993 World Dairy Expo in Madison, Wisconsi n.

These efforts culminated in significant sales of dairy cattle, hay and straw from Manitoba, to buye rs located in American Midwestern states, and in the identification of promising market opportunities concerning various worldwide markets for both dairy cattle and foragers. With pork, Manitoba Department of Agriculture participated and co-operated in a promotional , graphic display of swine bree ding stock from the western provinces at the World Pork Expo in Des Moines, Iowa.

This undertaking supported efforts towards the western provinces consolidating their promotional activity within this specialty area with a focus on penetrating the American market. This project resulted in significant sales opportunities being identified which the industry is following up on. Export Sales of Fresh Vegetables to Northern U.S. Staff in co-operation with Peak Vegetable Sales have actively pursued develo ping a market in the Minneapolis area for Manitoba fresh vegetables.

Significant sales have resulted, and work is continuing toward further increasing the number of clients and sales volume within this promising market. Pork Exports to California. In 1993, Manitoba Agricult ure was instrumental in initiating Manitoba pork exports to California. By the end of that year, appro ximately 250,000 pounds of Manitoba pork were being shipped each week into that state. With this new market penetration, Manit oba's pork is gaining a reputation for its high quality and leanness in places where it is sold throughout California. •

(1450) May 26, 1994 LEGISLA1lVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2394 Diversification and Value-Added. Our Crop Diversification Centre is one that the Manitoba Department of Agriculture is extremely proud of to be one of the contributing participants in the new Crop Diversification Centre initia tive. The new centre is being funded by the Government of Canada, gover nment of Manitoba and agribusin ess. Its operation will be driven by market needs and opportunities.

The new centre is being esta blished to provide increased opportunities for Manitoba fanners to diversify into horticultural, special crops and forage industr ies. The centre will be con trolled by industry repr esentatives in co-operation with strategic partners, such as the fe deral and provincial agenc ies, agribusi nesses, supplie rs, industry associations and market organi zations. A fe w words on the PMU operation in this province. Ayerst Organics is an international phannaceutical company located in Brandon.

This successful company purchases pregnant mare urine from producers for use in the phannaceutical industry. The province assist ed Ayerst Organics with its recent expansion plans . In support of the province 's contribution, Manitoba Agriculture is assisting the province 's producers in their need for related technical , production and research PMU inf ormation and in their need for PMU increased production through Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation financing.

In the Industry Promotion and Consumer Awarenes s, "Manitoba Ve ge tables-Peak Perf ormance," Manitoba Agriculture produced a 14 -minutes video fe aturing the Man itoba vegetable industry. This vid eo, "Manitoba Vegeta bles-Peak Perform ance" informs the viewer about vegetable production in the province from planting right through to the delivery of the rated product to retai lers. This video is designed for use at national and international trade shows and to promote the special features of Manito ba's vegetable industry relating to potential new markets.

The vi deo won first place in the open professional category under 15 minutes at the We st-Man Media Co-operative Awards. The Food Equation is another example of these consumer-awa reness and industry-promotion initiatives that were undertaken. The Food Equation is a one-hour television special on food saf ety. Mani toba Agriculture and the province 's producer s designed this television special to addre ss the concerns of urban con sumers about food safety. The production fe atures facts and fallacies about food safety through a series of interviews with expe rts.

People interviewed within this special repre sent fe deral and provincial governments, universities and produce rs. These interviews cover such large areas as pesticide residues on food, growth hormones in meat, food additives and food handling. The Food Equation special program aired on the Manitoba television network, CKX, and Channel 13, MTN, during early 1994. Since the airing of the program, copies of the video have been requested from Australia, North Dakota, Ottawa and Yorldon. Yorkton and Australia, hmm .

Budg et highli gh ts: Beca use of difficult economic times and our province 's accumulated debt, our government has stntggled to maintain its level of essential health care, educational and social services. Accordingly, the province has had to make some difficult decisions impacting the proposed budgets of dep artments, including the Department of Agriculture, in the 1994-95 budget. The Manitoba Department of Agriculture 1994-95 budget expenditure represents a balance in serving the needs of Manitoba ·s· farmers and the agrifood industry with a need for fiscal restraint.

The total budgeted expenditure for Manitoba Agriculture in 1994-95 is approximately $1 14.9 million. This figure represents a total reduction of approximately $5.4 million or 4.5 percent from the 1993-94 voted Estimates of $120.4 million. Although there is a reduction in our departm ent 's budget, we are continuing to maintain our essential front line services to producers. Mor eov er, during our budget preparation proce ss, we were able to eliminate overhead and duplication as well as to review

2395 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 options for new delivery mechanisms and management appro aches. The major portion of the overall $5.4 million de crease is reflected in reduced spending within the National Trip artite pro grams for Manitoba. These are programs, of course, that have come to an end in the last financial year. The Tripart ite Hog Stabilization Plan: The Province of Manitoba is budgeting $1. 7 million towards premium and transitional contributions under the Trip artite Hog Stabilization Plan for a ni ne-mo nth period.

The Tripartite Hog Stabilization Plan will be tenninated as of July 2, 1994. However, the transitional assistance will be terminated as of De cember 31, 19 94. The $1. 7 -million budgeted expenditure in question represents an app roximate reduction of some $4.7 million when compared to the previous fiscal year. So honourable members will realize that most of the reduction of the overall budget comes from that one program alone . The Tripartite Cattle Stabilization Plan terminated on December 31, 19 93.

During 1993-94, approxi mately $1.4 million was allocated for premium contributions within this specific program area. Accordingly , the elimination of this plan effectively represents a further $1 .4-million decrease in budgeted expenditures. Under this respe ctive suba ppro priation, $15 0,000 has been allocated in the 1994-95 for transitional assistance towards the cattle industry. Under the GRIP program, the 1994-95 budgeted expenditures for the Gross Revenue Insurance Plan reflects our government's commitment to support producers under this program beyond its 1995-96 termination

schedule . The Ca nada-Manitoba Agreement on Agricultural Sustainability is fo und within the 19 94- 95 proposed Estimates of Manitoba Agricul ture. This new agreement replaces the previous Canada-Ma nitoba Soil Conservation Agreement. Both of these, of course, address conserving and enhancing our natural resources. However, the new agreement on agricultural sustainability is more comprehensive than the pre vious one towards maintaining the quality of agriculture related to land and water.

In conclusion, allow me to introduce the Estimates for the department, 1994-95 , and I will look forward to discussing these in more specific detail with members of the committee. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister for those remarks. Do es the critic for the opposition party the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) have some opening remarks? Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thank the minister for those comments and for providing us with a copy of them in writing to fo llow. I ap preciate that very much. I have a fe w opening comments to make.

However, I do not have them in writing, but they are not as detailed as the mini ster's. I also want to take this opportunity to again welcome the minister back to the Agriculture portfolio where he has a lot of expertise and look forward to discussing various lines in the Estimates. As the minister has indicated, agriculture is very import ant to Manitoba. The benef its of the industry are many times not recognized by people who are outside the agricultural industry.

Particular ly, people in urban centres do not recognize that the spin-off benefits are of benefit to the urban cen tres as well There are many jobs that are created here in the city and in other urban centres that are as a result of the agricultural indu stry. In fact, when agriculture took a downturn a few years ago the ramific ations were fe lt in the city, particularly in the construction of farm equipment and those kinds of areas, and that is when people started to realize to some de gree that the agriculture industry was very important .

I think that it is very important that we work together to preserve the indu stry, to enhance it, but also by enhancing the industry, strengthening the fam ily farm and giving people the opportunity to continue to live and work in the rural area, in the fields that they are familiar with, the trades that they are familiar with.

May2 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2396 • (15 00) My concern is that we are losing people who are in the fanning industry. When we look at the population numbers in this province, statistics show us that the population in rural areas is going down, and as a result of that the small communities are dying because the spin-off jobs are not there. Also as a result, with a reduced population there is a reduction in services in the rural area and all people in the rural community suffer for it.

So I believe very strongly in the rural community and we have to look at ways of diversifying the economy of the rural area and look at ways that we can get the value-added jobs into the areas. We have for years been shipping the products that we produce off to other areas, out of the country, in a raw state. It is time we looked at ways that we can enhance the rural community and get the val ue-added jobs from agricultural products as we have to look at other products as well that come from the rural and northern areas to enhance the economy there and allow people to stay in those communities.

Certainly I will be having questions dealing with GRIP and with crop insurance and those areas. There are a few questions I have with the minister as to where the gover nment is going with marketing on the beef and bog operations. The minister bas given us some indication, and it is certainly good to bear that the government is looking at bow we can begin processing some of those products to a secondary stage before we ship them out of the province. I am pleased to bear the PMU industry is going well.

It is an important industry to our province, particularly in my part of the province, and in the Interlake area in particular, where there is a lot of marginal land. We beard about that from the sustainable development institute where we have to look at ways to use this land rather than trying to grow grain on it, as we have for many years, look at ways where we can have an economy there without disturbing the soil as much as we have in the past. I have a few questions on the PMU industry and wha t the gover nmen t is do ing .

There are regulations that are being brought in with the bog industry and cattle industry, and I would like to talk to the minister about some of the things that are happening in the PMU industry when we get to that

section of the Estimates. I am pleased to bear that the costs are going down for farmers, but I guess even with lower interest rates and fuel prices, and the minister indicates that pesticide prices are going down, there is still a tremendous amount of pre ssure on farm families beca use the pri ce of their product in all areas is not increasi ng as rapidly as we would like to see it. So although there is a decrease in those prices, there is still a tremendous amount of pressure on the fanning community.

With regard to GATT and NAFI'A, the signing of both those agreements, although the minister ind icates that there are additional opportunities for fanners to access marlcets in those areas, there are concer ns, particu larl y with the Free Trade Agreement and the pre ssure s we are under with tariffication and the disputes that we have now, particularly with durum wheat and the Americans not wanting to acce pt our grain into their country, saying that we are flooding their marlcet and not dealing with that, in my opinion, very fairly. That is another area that we would want to have some discussion on.

Also, I have raised, several times in the House, with the minister, safety net programs and the direction that the government is going in and the whole fann income protection programs, and look to get a lit tle bit more detail on what the government is proposing as far as those programs go. Certainly the other area that we have to be concerned about is the conse rvation of our soil and water.

Both of those are very important resources that are necessary for the agricultural industry to be viable, but we as farmers also hav e a respo nsibility to see that those resources are used wisely, used in a way that they are there for future generations to use, and would hope that-in some of the areas I have some questions I will be asking about regulations on water and on soil

2397 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May26, 1994 management and what direction the departm ent is going on that. I appreciate the proposal, the mission and goal to provide opportunities for young and be ginning farmers to enter into agriculture. That is very important.

Our farming population, the people involved in the industry right now, are at an age where they would like to be thinking about retirement Many of them cannot afford to retire because they have too much invested in the industry and have no way to get out of it I think that we have to look at ways for young peo ple, because there are many young people who come from the rural areas who want to go back there-if there was a way and if there were government supports, not necessa rily financial supports but supports to borrow money, and if there were some as surances or if they felt that they could make a reasonable living, many of them would return to the family farms.

So I think that those are very-that is a good direction to be looking at, how we can get our young people back and what kind of programs we can have in place to e nsure that they can make a reasonable living. I also want to discuss the steps that the government has taken in their Visions for the 1990s. I have not had the opportunity to look at it very closely, but when I look at some of the examples, I believe those are good things that we are doing, look ing at ways that we can find markets for our products, looking at ways where we can find value-added jobs and enhance the economy.

I would like to see that taken at a very local level, where we could see some of the value-added jobs. What I am saying is, I would hope there would be a direction taken, that there would be, where there is the opportunity, on a very small scale, if there are small communities that are able to get a few jobs into their communities in fact, that the department would take the initiative to help create jobs in many of the smaller areas.

I realize that not every small community is going to get some value-added jobs, but if the department can lend the sup ports, the resea rch, and where possible, financial assistance through loans or infonnation through research that we can have the jobs right in the small communities. It will help many, many more people. The one area that I do have concern about is, as I said earlier, the depopulation of rural Manitoba. I think we have to look seriously at how we are going to hel p peo ple get back to the rural community, those who want to.

The one area that I am disappointed with is that in these Estimates we do not have any reference made to the rural stress line. It is an issue, I believe, that is very important to rural Man itobans and one supported by a large number of people. People in the rural area recognize that there is a tremendous amount of stress out there.

There are many areas that do not have the services that they need I think we have to look at ways of how we can improve the services for the people in those communities, so they can have access to services, whether it be counsel ling or other services that could be accessed through the stress line. That is the one area that I am disa ppointed in that we have not seen this government move on. At some point in the Estimates when we come to the right line, we can talk a little bit more in detail as to how funds possibly could be found to support that project for rural Manito ba.

When we get into the lines, there are some areas with regard to the Agri cultural Crown Lands cotparation and the financing of fann s, and those areas that I have more specific questions to get into, but with that I will close my opening comments. Again, I look forwar d to the debating of the issues and thank the minister for his written statement. Mr. Deputy Chairperson : We thank the member for those opening comments. Does the critic for the second opposition party have an opening statement? •

(1510) Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Bonifac e) : Yes, Mr. Deputy Chaitperson. First, I would like to congratulate the Min ister of Agriculture for his second tenn, I should say, from

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2398 years back. I do not how long ago, but I know it is his second tenn as minister. [interjection] An Honourable Member: Third year. It is actually a reincarna tion. Mr. Gaudry: Rein carna tion. I would also like to thank his staff for being here this aft ernoon. We will be looking fo rward to questioning the minister on his various interests during the course of the Estimates. I would also like to thank the previous minister we wolked very co-operatively with-and a friend away. I know we will continue doing so with the minister and his staff.

We do not know for bow long; the elections are coming up within the year, and we will look fo rward to that also. But I am sure the minister will be there forever, because be has been there for 27 years, and like be says, it is always a rein carna tion. We know that the fa rming industry is very important to Manitobans and not only to the farm ers or rural areas, but the urban centres. I know that because I was raised on a farm , and in the minister 's constituency on top of that. So I go back there on a regular basis to- An Honourable Member: That worries me. Mr. Gaudry: It should not.

I know be has been supported by a lot of people up there and good friends, and that does not mean anything because we consider Mr. Enos a very popular man in the constituency of Lakeside and will continue to do so. He bas a lot of respect out there. Like I say, I will be very brief. I will be looking forward to working into the Estimates and questioning on the interests of the farm ing industry. With this, again, I would like to congratulate the minister for being appointed the Minister of Agriculture. Thank you very much. Mr. De puty Chairperson: We thank the member for St. Bonif ace (Mr.

Gaudry) for those very well-pu t-f orward words. Under Manitoba practice, the debate of the Minis ter's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a dep artment. Accotdingly , we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table , and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present . Mr. Enos: Mr. Deputy Ch airpers on, I look fo rward to these Estimates. I thank the critics of bot h opposition parties for their opening statements.

Allow me to introduce senior management staff of the Department of Agricultur e: Mr. Greg Lacomy, our Deputy Minister; Mr. Les Baseraba, Assist ant Deputy Minister of the Management and Regional Agricultural Services Divis ions ; and Mr. Craig Lee at my immediate left, Assistant Deputy Minister of Policy & Economics division; and Mr. Dave Donaghy, Assistant Deputy Minister of Agricultural Development & Marketing division. Allow me to also put on the record, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a very sincere appreciation for the entire staff of the Department of Agriculture.

It has been my good fortune to have had an opportunity of in fa ct being able to visit with many of the staff in the field Staff in the Department of Agriculture are the kind of staff that on a very regular basis, meet , touch on the lives of many , many Manitobans on an every day basis and often not always under the best of circumst ances, as for instance, the cropping conditi ons that were prevalent in too many parts of the province last September or under other circumstances when, as the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowcbuk) has indicated, there are difficult economic situations fa cing our fanning population.

All too often, it is our staff , the Department of Agriculture, who are the people there to try to counsel, try to assist, and it was a very meaningful experience for me to recognize that while at the same time departments like Agriculture and other departments that I have bad the privi lege of being the minister of have quite frankly fa ced some of the more dif ficult budget measures. I say more difficult when placed against the social services departments of the high priorities such as Health and Education.

2399 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May26, 1994 For the departmental staff to maintain what I certainly fe lt to be a high degree of morale, willingness to carry out the mandate that the department bas over the many yea rs been responsible for in providing services throughout Manitoba was certainly evident. I express the appre ciation on behalf of the government of Manitoba, indeed, the people of Manitoba for that continued excellence of service . So with those fe w comments to staff, let us begin. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, with regard to the

section on Exe cutive Support staff, I do not have very many questions in that area because this deals basically with salaries and that part of the-which bas very little changes . I do not have very many questions on that, but I do wa nt to ask a questio n as far as the Transportation goes. We have seen an increase in that area, and I wonder what that would result in. Is it because this group of people is having to do a lot more travelling into the communities? I am on the wrong-1 do not have the right book with me. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: You are in the right one. This book, page 19. Ms.

Wowchuk: I am sorr y, I brought the wrong one with me. I am on l. (b ). Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Yes, that is where we are. Ms. Wowchuk: So just if we could have a bit of discussion on that. Is it because the department is travelling a lot more to do outreach work, or what is happening? Mr. En os: Well, I suppose, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member for Swan River, in displaying so early on in these Estimates her skill at just touching the minister right where it is at because- Ms. Wowchuk: I apologize if I was-1 was not trying to be fa cetious. •

(1520) Mr. Enos: No, no, you will have to become accustomed to me. I am not being swift. But the fact of the matter is, it is a possibility that the minister bas contributed substantially to these additional travelling costs by indeed wanting to and indeed travelling throughout the province in meeting with the various staff people and crown agencies. Our staff bas the practice of meeting regionally in the fo ur regions of the department, and I readily confess to having contributed to this increased figure.

I am told that there is no specific-and this, of course, also reflects some of the increased travel that bas been occasioned by the trade issues, the saf ety net issues, some of the activity by the new fe deral Minister of Agriculture , Mr. Goodale, who bas called us on rather short occasions, on one occasion to Ottawa to report back from his GATT discussions and on another occasion to Regina to begin the series of discussions on the saf ety net program. So those are the explanations for these increases. Ms.

Wowchuk: I guess what I was wondering about, just whether this is the are a where you would include-! know there have been several trade missions to other are as. Does that come under this area, or does that come out in another area? Mr. Enos: No, my staff advises that this is in fact within the executive management travel only. Those other travel expendi tures, which, as the member would appre ciate , are considerably higher and more costly, would be fo und under the Marketing branch of the Estimates. Ms. Wowchuk: I wanted to ask if we can perhaps-! have questions under all of

Section 1, and I apologize again because I do not have that book-if I could deal with any questions that I have under

Section 1, if that would be possible . Mr. Eons: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I certainly want to accommodate the members, and I believe that is a more comf ortable way of dealing with the Estimates, in dealing with them as the whole appropriation that is under consideration. There will be some occasions when under the advice of staff and to accommodate staff we may be adding a few more extra sections. For instance, if we have our soils and crops expert people here, then we will

May26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2400 deal with all of the soils and crops issues that are in the Estimates simply to use the time of the staff more efficiently when they are here. But I have no problem in dealing with the entire item under the appropriation and then when the members are prepared to pass, simply pass it. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you very muc h. I appreciate that, and if the minister would give us an indication when there is staff here that can deal with another sec tion, I have no difficulty with doing that and moving to whichever

section we have to move to. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: By lea ve, the committee will be moving to answer questions globally as per the minister's staff being present then. Is that agreed? [agreed] Ms. Wowchuk: As I look through the Financial and Administrati ve Services under this section, I understand that it is under this

section that we would deal with the auditing of the Gross Revenue Insurance program. Is that correct? When I look at the annual report, it is under Financial and Administrative Services. Is this the

section where we can deal or does that have to wai t until we get to the sec tion under GRIP? I am askin g for clarification here. Mr. Enos: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am easy. We have, fortunately, st aff who can respond to that We have them. 1bis really would come under the-I would su ggest that we deal under that whole matter, GRIP, safety programs when we have the Crop Insurance appropriation before us. They are essen tially the delivery team of the program. Ms. Wowchuk: The reason I asked whether it should be done now is because when I look at the annual report under the Finan cial and Administrative, which is I.(

c) in here, it says that the Financial and Administrative Services was the group that dealt with the producer audits. If that is not accurate, then I can wait for another. Mr. Enos: As far as that reference to audit, it refers to an internal audit within the department and not the specific audits relative to the GRIP program that you are referring to, so I would ask you that we defer those questions to when we deal with the Crop Insurance Corporation. Ms. Wowchuk: I am having a bit of a problem here getting my questions straight.

I wanted to ask some questions, then, whether it would be under this area, because I have not seen it anywhere in the book, about the effe ctiv eness of dec ent ralization, whether there bas been an analysis of decentralization that has been carried on, if it is under another section, if someone could advise me, please. Mr. Enos: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am advised that the overall costs that are directly attributable or can be dire ctly identi fi ed with the decentralization program will , in fact, be dealt with specifically in a line item by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) in the Department of Finance.

We, of course, have wherever possible, though we have not always succeeded, gone back to Finance with addi tional costs that were impo8ed on the department in some of the decentrali zation moves. I do not know what else I can tell the member at this particular junction. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to assure the minister that I am not trying to be difficult. All I was asking for was whether the Department of Agriculture has done an analysis of the branches that have been dec entralized and whether there has been any work done on the cost eff ectiveness, the extra costs.

The reason I ask it at this time is because last year when we asked it under decentralization we were referred back to the various departments. I thought that it would probably come under the administration of the department if there was any work done on any

summary or review of the eff ects of decen tralization on the departments. Mr. Enos: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I suspect that there has been no- you know, it is a diffi cult thing to assess the cost-benefit analysi s. It was a governmental, politic al decision if you like, to commit towards the decentralizin g of the public service sector, and in a very specified and specific way, essentially the program has been completed and carried out Some over 600 Manitoba public

2401 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 servants have been relocated into diff erent parts of rural Manitoba. The member will recall there was specific money set aside for that purpose by Finance. I can tell her from my own experi ence , not so much in this department but fr om the Department of Natural Resource s, which I pre viously had the privilege of being the minister of and was more directly involved at the actual time of some of the decen tralizati on that impacted on that dep artment, that in all too many cases it was kind of a shared responsibility.

We did access some of those mo nie s from Finance that wer e set aside specif ically for that, but all too often the department was left picking up a share of the expenses. I would perhaps ask the dep artment-as I understand our Estimates likely ma y be interrupte d. We are not, at this stage, confumed that we will be canying on with the department 's Estimates on Monday. We may well find ourselves with a one or two day hiatus while they resume the Estimates of Education, which were not concluded yesterday .

So perhaps I can leave this subject matter and ask senior management, having heard the question, if they can in fact provide a summ ary from the infonnation that we do have that would give the committee some indication of the additional costs, out of the ordinary costs, that we can identify as being above and beyond the nonnal operating range or building cost range that could be attributable by the Department of Agriculture for the decen tralizati on moves in curred by it. Ms. Wowchuk: I woul d appreciate that infonn ation.

I guess as we look at the program I think it is good to bring services closer to those people who need them, but I think it is also important to evaluate any program that takes place. I lo ok at, in particular, and I am sure the department must mo nitor, whether there be incre ased travelling cost s as a result of decentralization, whether there is an increase in telephone costs because there is need for more communication. I think that it is important in each area where there has been dece ntralization that this be monitored because at some point there could be plans to further decentralize dep artments.

I think that there should be an analys is done of it, and if it is possible to get some of that inf onnation, then I would appreciate getting it. • (15 30) Mr. Enos: I will undertake to provide that. Ms. Wowchuk: I want to just move onto another area; that is, the soil and water accord is winding down, and we are moving into another program. I want to ask the minister at what stage, how far we are into the wind-up and where we are with the repl acement program, and what activities are taking place in that area? Mr. Enos: Again, Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, I appreciate the membe r's-she sees the item in this

section correctly , that it is winding down, but it is being repl aced, as I believe I indicated in my opening notes, by a diff erent, more comprehensive program, a sustainable development program, that will come under Appropriation 7 in the regular Estimates, that perhaps we could supply the member, and that will be the opportunity when we have the director of Soils and Crops, Dr. Barry Todd, with us that we can specifi cally ask on those questions, on those issues. Mr . Gaudry: What are doing at this stage? Are we going from one- Mr.

Deputy Chairper son: Just to advise the honourable member, we had agreed that we would do one appropriation at a time. Right now, we will be dealing with 3.1, and we can deal in its entirety of 3.1, which is Administrati on and Finance . Mr. Gaudry: We will do one at a time. It will be a lot easier, because then you can bring in the staff. In the grants and transfer payments of $1 6,200, where do those grants go? Mr.

Enns: I am advised that this is the appropriation for which we provide the appropriate funds to support national meetings, national conventions, organizations that hold national meetings and conve ntions. These would be pertaining to, generally speaking, agricultural matters that are hosted in the city of Winnipeg or some place in Br andon and by custom, by

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2402 tradition, they ask the Department of Agriculture to support them in their hospitality requirements . I can, for the record, indicate all of the organizations that we supported in this manner.

The Flax Growers of Western Canada received a $500 grant; the Agricultural Institute of Canada, a $5,000 grant; Canadian Association of Diploma Agriculture Programs, $350; the Canada Grains Council , which held a very significant meeting and conference on the grain questions here in the city, $2,500; Expert Committee on Weeds, $1 ,000; the Manitoba Charolais Associ ation, $500; the Manitoba-S askatchewan Blo nde d 'Aquitaine Association, $1 ,700. That was in '92-93 .

In '93-94, again, we have the Canada Grains Council, which I take it is an annu al meeting for $1 ,500; Canada Grains Commission for $1, 875; Canadian Shorthorn Association for $750; the Canola Council of Canada for $1 ,30 0; the Manitoba Livestock Performance Testing Board Inc., $900; the National Chinch illa Breeders association, $500. So these are organizations that the department has over the past supported in their hospitality activi ties. Mr. Gaudry: In the total Salaries and Employee Benefits, there has been a reduction and there has been no reduction in staff.

Is that attributed to Bill 22, the Filmon Frid ays, like they are called? Mr. Enos: Could the member help us and my staff by specifically pointing- Mr. Gaudry: Page 19. Mr. Enos: Of the Supplementary Inf ormation book, page 19. Mr. Gaudry: It shows $422,000 Estimates, a decrease in '93-94 to $413, 000. Mr. Enos: That is an increase . Mr. Gaudry: The increase , then, is just a natural increment. Mr.

Eons: This is the net result of any salary ad justments, seve rance payouts and/or merit ad justments, and I would suggest that the increase here has a combination of both, some severance payouts as well as merit adj ustments. Mr. Gaudry: I know the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) asked about decentralization. Was there any decen tralization in the Department of Agriculture in the past year? Mr.

Enos : I am advised that there were two fu rther add itions : one to the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation at Portage, and one to other crown agency, MACC, the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation; but in es sence the decentralization programs that aff ected this department had been carri ed out in the previous year. Mr. Gaudry: The increase in Transportation is strictly-! imagine that it is for the $5,000-is for the executive directing, going out to rural areas? Mr. Enos: Mr. Deputy Chailperson, this is the same question that the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) asked, that it is particularly and specifically accounted for because of the increased activity resulting from discussions having to do with the trade issue and the safety programs that called upon myself and senior members of staff to travel to Ottawa and to Regina to attend meetings of agricultural ministers along with the fe deral minister as well. Mr. Gaudry: The amount of $75, 000 represents Policy Studies. What policy studies does that include? Mr. Enos: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am advised by staff that we have, in fact, no specific policy studies currently identified for this year, but we do have, as I have made public, the responsibility of hosting the national agricul tural ministers ' conference in July of this year. Staff has identified some of these dollars to help defray some of the expenses that will be associated with that respon sibility. Ms. Wowchuk: Just on the question of policy stud ies, I assumed that that was going to be money that would be used in developing the new safety net programs or developing those kinds of policies.

Is that also where people are working on that, or is that again under a different app ropriation, because I would imagine that there would be a tremendous amount of work that is being put in to develop those new programs? •

(1540) 2403 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 Mr. Enos: I think, in trying to be as accurate as possible, that it would not be unreasonable to suggest that inasmuch as a great deal of the preparatory work for that conference and indeed the conference time itself, as far as the minister 's time will be involved, is on the issues that the honourable member ref ers to, the development and the discussions of the future of the safety net programs.

I am also advised that although we have not to date, but if we were to use the servi ces of outside consultants for some specific work, it would be coming out of this kind of fund. It would be related to the kind of research and policy papers that senior staff and the minister will have to have in preparation for the July conf erence. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item l. (b)

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $422,400-pass;

(2) Other Exp enditures $68, 700-pass;

(3) Policy Studies $71,2 00--p ass. l. (

c) Financial and Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $868,1 00--pass;

(2) Other Expe nditures $390,4 00--pass. l.(

d) Computer Services

(1) Salaries and Empl oyee Benefits $296,200-- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $4 9,10 0-- pass. l. (

e) Human Resource Management Services (

l) Salaries and Empl oyee Benefits $230, 10 0 -p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $38,4 00-- pass. l.(

f) Less : Recov erable from Other Appr opriations 3.5-no, we do not pass that one. 2. Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation (

a) Administration $4,729,800. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, with re gar d to the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation, last year there was a review of the corporation and there were several suggestions made on how the corporation could be improved I believe a few of the recomm endations were implemented, but there were many recommendations that were made to improve the Crop Insurance Corporation that have not been imple mented. Can the minister tell us what the status of that report is and what plans there are to make further changes in the Crop Insurance Corporation? Mr. Enos: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, allow me to introduce the General Manager of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation, Mr. Brian Manning, who is I believe the first time around us as manager-[int erjection] Second? Second set of Estimates; and Mr. Neil Hamilton, Director of Research. Specifically to the question that the member for Swan River poses, there has been a great deal of review and consultation taking place within the corporati on and with the client groups. They have-a nd I commend the corporation for that-held numerous meetings in different parts of the province which the member would be aware of.

There were some very specific issues that needed address ing. The first of these was in November of 1991. The Province of Manitoba conducted the first major review of Manitoba's crop insurance system in 10 years. A committee of 10 members was selected to fo cus effectiveness on the all-risk crop insurance progra m. This review committee was released in January of '93 in this year passed, and with it tabling some 12 5 re comm endations for consideration.

To give you some indication of the fact that the report is just not gathering dust, action taken to date : 65 percent of the recommendations or 81 of the actual recommendations have been implemented in full, partly implemented or are being implemented as we speak; 15 percent of the recommendations are being further researched; 20 percent do not apply to crop insura nce. They are various add-ons or ad hoc programs and commend themselves to fu rther review and other recommenda tions. This has been an ongoing activity on the part of the corporation.

It has been a busy year for the corporation, and again let me-l should not be doing this in the sense that I have too much respect fo r all the staff , as I indicated earlier, but again honourable members will appre ciate that this corporation that has the owners responsibility of

May 26, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2404 assessing crop damage , the conditions of harvest, particularly in the Red River Valley, but not exclusive to the Red River Va lley, were perhaps some of the most difficult ones that we have experience for a long, long time in the province of Manitoba, and yet it was understood by myself that perhaps at no time did-it was more critical that the insurance or the organization do not get bogged down, that the turnaround time to flow money back into the bands of the bard-pressed fa rmers was even more important in a year of the kind that we bad.

So it was a great deal to ask of the cotpOration. Members might recall that we did ask for additional help , and it was provided in an expeditious manner by our sister Province of Sa skatchewa n which en abled us to have experienced people whom we utilized. I bad the opportunity of thanking Premier Romanow just again in Gimli last week for that assistance. I bad earlier opportunities of speaking and thanking the Minister of Agriculture for Saskatchewan more directly.

I do acknowledge the tremendous effort that Crop Insurance staff made in servicing a record amount of payout, third highest claim load in the crop in suran ce history, and as I say, under very adverse conditions because not only was it the kind of nonnal claim-out, as committee members will app reciate, we bad this whole question of what was it that our producers were being asked to har vest? Was it sa leable? What extent of contamination?

The fu sar ium, mo re commonly known as tombstone, was in the product that on the one band our regulations under Crop Insurance demanded that they make every attempt to harvest, but other official agencies within the grain industry, such as the Grain Commission or the Wheat Board will not be able to, in their earlier stages, put any price on the product.

All the while this was happening under very diffi cult physical harvesting conditions which saw farmers in some instances literally breaking up their equipment or doing severe damage to their land base as well, to their soil, in their efforts to make that harvest. So I put those few comments on the record. I think the corporation acted in an exempla ry manner in dealing with this situation in this past year. Ms. Wowchuk: I realize and I recognize that last year was a very difficult year particularly more so in southern Manitoba than in northern Manitoba.

I know that the corporation, in speaking to farm ers of the area, the peo ple who were doing the inspect ions, did work very quickly and tried to process them even under the difficult situations that were there. The minis ter bas addressed a couple of questions that I have. One of them is the extra help that was brought in fr om Saskatchewan. If we could indicate the number of people who were brought in and at what cost was that? Is there a spe cific number that can be tied to the cost of that? •

(1550) Mr. Enns: I have specif ic numbers for the committee members. They were thus: Some 48 Saskatchewan ad justers were brought in to assist. These ad justers were already trained in ad justing procedure and were able to ad just immediately. Crews were set up to ens ure uni form and cost-ef fe ctive ad justing. Some 45 additional Manitoba ad justers were hired and trained to ad just. In addition to that, 15 Manitoba Department of Agriculture staff were also required to assist in the adj usting.

The Department of Agriculture staff has, not just in this instance but in a number of instances, shown a great deal of flexibility in lending itself to pitching in where they are needed. It was largely secondment of the Department of Agriculture staff that all owed us to introduce the GRIP program, for in stance, without having to go to additional or outside staff. In total an excess of 25,000 claims were adj usted. I can indicate some cost figures, the '93-94 budget figures. The total ad justing budget for the year was $1 ,695,955. In '93-94, we had approved this committee, this legislature in the budget

2405 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1994 pr ocess, $1. 6 million. The actual expenditures were just about double, $3,1 99,300. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chaitperson, in the Chair) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Acting Deputy Chaitperson, that is a tremendous amount of money that had to be paid out, but you had indicated that there were 45 additional Manitobans who were hired as ad ju sters. Were those people just hired as temporary staff , or have they been trained, and are they now able to do adj usting in other areas of the pro vince, or were they just trained for that short period of time? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chair person, advise the committee that a very substantial number of the staf f from the Crop Insurance Cotporation are what you could call temporary. I had the opportunity of meeting a good number of them at a meeting in the late fall at Portage Ia Prairie, where they bring them in occasionally for further training sessions, something like that. A good portion, up to 200, I believe, 150, 200 I am advised by the general manager, are staff people who fa ll into this category. Ms.

Wowchuk: Just on that temporary staff, it was my understanding that there were some changes to their contract in how they were being paid. I think you were working through that last fall . I wonder whether that has been worked through and whether all of those negotiations have been comple ted. Mr. Enns: I can advise the committee that the negotiations are ongoing and have been ongoing since April of '93. In total, some 46 articles of the collective agreement are in fact being negotiated.

I am advised that some 25 remain, with the vast majority being monetary issues that will be dealt with collectively in April and May of '94. It is expected that a settlement will be reached by June 30 of '94. So the negotiations are still ongoing. A settlement is expected at the end of June . Ms. Wowchuk: In the last agreement, or I am not sure if it is in this agreement, there were changes being made on travel time and how much time the ad justers would be paid, whether they would be paid when they were just onsite, or whether they would be paid from the time they left the of fice.

Has that been negotiated, or is that still being worked out? Mr. Enns: I am advised that, as the member would suspect, particularly these kinds of issues that of course impact monetarily on the status of the employee are among the last to be negotiated. I sus pect that there is a direction fr om the cotporation to review any and all expenditu res, particularly those that are related to the loosely categorized other expenses , travel and so fo rth. It would not surprise me if there have been some positions being put fo rward by the cotporation that perhaps are not as generous as the ones that had been in place.

I suspect that is one of the reasons for the protracted negotiations. Ms. Wowchuk: Since these negotiations began in April of '93, and the co rp oration was in negotiation last fall when we had a tremendous amount of work that had to be done , did that have anything to do with bringing in the extra people from Saskatchewan because of probl ems with negotiations? Is there any connection, or is it just that we needed extra people in here to do the work? Mr. Enn

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-34
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 34.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7fefbc3f5d8734412dbfc9bf66f54259357630c3

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