Alberta Hansard — 22 November 2005, Afternoon sitting (13:30) (Legislature 26, Session 1)

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Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1777 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 1:30 p.m. Date: 05/11/22 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray. As Canadians and as Albertans we give thanks for the precious gifts of freedom and peace which we enjoy. As Members of this Legislative Assembly we rededicate ourselves to the valued traditions of parliamentary democracy as a means of serving our province and our country. Amen. Please be seated. head: Introduction of Visitors The Speaker: The hon. Member for Banff-Cochrane. Mrs. Tarchuk: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I’d like to introduce to you and through you to Members of the Legislative Assembly a gentleman who is no stranger to many of us. He is Mr. Gord Button. He’s the seventh Ombudsman of the province of Alberta. He is sitting up in the Speaker’s gallery, and I’d ask that he please stand and receive the warm traditional welcome of the Assembly. head: Introduction of Guests Mrs. McClellan: Mr.

Speaker, it’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly nine members of the Prairie Land regional school division board of trustees who are in Edmonton for meetings with the Alberta School Boards Association. Seated in the members’ gallery are John Neill, chairman of the board; Linda Danielsen; Bill Lee; Bev Lee; Gloria Nelson; Elaine Horner; Duane Roy; Sheila Taylor; and Sharon Orum. I’d ask them all to rise and receive the very warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. Mr. Horner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’m pleased to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly two residents of my constituency, Brent and Craig Korte. Craig is a grade 6 student from St. Marguerite school in Spruce Grove and is currently studying the government. He’s very active in his school as a class representative on student council and is currently working on a leadership project in which he’s chosen one of our former Premiers, Premier Peter Lougheed. Craig is also active in several sports in the community. He is accompanied today by his father, Brent, who works in government relations for Janssen-Ortho.

Brent is also quite involved in sports in the Spruce Grove community as a coach of minor football and minor hockey. They are seated in the members’ gallery. I’d ask that they rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the House. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Human Resources and Employ- ment. Mr. Cardinal: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly six members of my department who are here today for a public service orientation tour.

They are seated in the members’ gallery, and I’d like them to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. Mr. Lougheed: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Member for Fort Saskatchewan-Vegreville and the Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations I’m pleased to introduce to you and through you to the members assembled a group of students from James Mowat school in Fort Saskatchewan. They’re accompanied by Mrs. Maureen Kondro and Mr. Ted Fellows and also by parents and helpers Mrs. Jennifer Proctor, Mrs. Donna Bruce, Mr. Brian Pearce, Mr. George Spindler, and Mrs. Frances Mangold.

They’re in both galleries, and I would ask that they please stand and receive the warm traditional welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly two fantastic and tireless workers from the Alberta Liberal Party office. Justin Archer, who is seated in the public gallery, graduated from his studies in law and society from the University of Calgary last year. He’s since relocated to Edmonton to work as an administrative co- ordinator at the party office.

He’s interested in the Alberta political landscape and is an advocate for the renewal of democracy and good government in Alberta, which is why he fits so well with us. Our other guest is Mike McLaughlin, who works in the accounting department at the Alberta Liberal Party. Believe it or not, he is busy there. He’s originally from Tor onto. He spent many years in the banking industry and also a decade in television program distribu- tion. He’s a proud father of two daughters.

One is a student adviser at Grant MacEwan student resource centre, and another just graduated from the public relations program at Grant MacEwan. Mike is thrilled to be working for a better Alberta. I’d ask the two to rise and please receive the warm welcome of all MLAs. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is indeed a pleasure for me to rise and welcome 69 of Edmonton-Mill Creek’s brightest and best young students. They are here from Velma Baker school, and today they are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Brent Kapicki and Mrs.

Kimberly Devereux, and some parent helpers, Dave Eriksson, Vicki Moore, Trina McCloy, Kendra Black, and Marla Phillips. May I ask all of them to rise and receive the very warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Environment. Mr. Boutilier: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In my former profession as a teacher, similar to yourself and many others of this Assembly, it is indeed my pleasure today to introduce through you to members of this Assembly two distinct representatives of Fort McMurray who capture our city slogan and spirit of We Have the Energy.

They are the chair of the public school board, Jeff Thomp- son, and also his lieutenant of wisdom, Rhonda Reich. I would like to ask both of them to rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Dunvegan-Central Peace. Mr. Goudreau: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly Mariette Sutton of Sherwood Park. Mariette has been a friend of my wife, Angie, since the ’70s, when they met at Mount Royal College. Mariette was a very long-time downtown Edmonton

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051778 businesswoman and is a recent cancer survivor. She’s an energetic person and focused on continually helping, motivating, organizing, and encouraging people around her in an effort to make this world a better place. She’s accompanied by my wife, Angie. I would ask both of them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I rise to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly some very special people.

Our visitors are from Suncor Energy and are partners with the Alberta Conservation Association and this government in a newly established boreal habitat conservation initiative. Through this initiative privately owned land in our northern forests will be bought and donated to the province’s publicly protected land base for conservation. Already more than 400 acres of shoreline around the Winagami Lake have been purchased and boreal habitat added to Alberta’s network of parks and protected areas.

In the members’ gallery representing the private partner in the boreal habitat conservation initiative are David Byler, the executive vice-president of Suncor Energy, and staff members Pat O’Reilly, Gord Lambert, and Cathy Glover. If I could ask them to rise and I would ask this House to extend its usual warm welcome. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview. Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased today to introduce to you and members of the Assembly Marty and Linda Rybiak. Marty received his bachelor’s in engineering science at the University of Western Ontario.

Linda also graduated from Western university with a master’s in chemical engineering. Both Marty and Linda are the proud parents of two young boys, Samuel and Andrew. Marty volunteers in a number of organizations, including Habitat for Humanity, and coaches basketball. He and Linda are active members of the Southminster-Steinhauer United Church. Marty is also the NDP candidate in Edmonton-Leduc for the upcoming federal election. I’d now ask that Linda and Marty both rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr.

Pannu: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my great pleasure to introduce to you and to all members of the Assembly a group of very enthusiastic, bright young scholars. They are grade 6 students from Garneau elementary school, a very well-known school and one of the oldest ones in my constituency. They’re accompa- nied by their teachers, Ms Susan Kosanovich and Ms Tara Calver, and by parents Ms Karen Dyberg, Lauren Beaupré, Linda Tennessen, and Ms Bev Wilson. I believe they are sitting in one of the two galleries.

Wherever they are, I’d ask them to please rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Oral Question Period The Speaker: First Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Children in Poverty Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Across Alberta the so-called Alberta advantage is not for everyone. In recent conversations with homeless shelters in both Calgary and Edmonton we’ve been told that at times shelters must even find space for mothers with newborn babies.

It’s shocking to think that in this province children and even moms with newborn babies can end up in homeless shelters. My question is to the Minister of Seniors and Community Supports. Can the minister explain how it is that in a province as wealthy as Alberta this government tolerates situations where little children and even moms with newborns end up squeezed into homeless shelters for adults? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs. Fritz: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’m pleased that this question has come forward, actually, to the Legislature because I have had the opportunity over the past week to two weeks to discuss with my staff the contingency funds that are in place for the homeless shelters, especially in Calgary. Having said that, you’re aware that with homeless shelters what we look for are people who are at risk of being homeless, and we add funding to transitional housing. Now, with the homeless shelter s ituation, in the Assembly over the past year we’ve brought forward budgets where we’ve increased the funding for that, Mr.

Speaker, by 42 per cent, which is a very large increase. We provide over $20 million a year to homeless shelters throughout the province of Alberta. I think that 42 per cent is significant. I also think that what we’ve discussed with transitional housing, what we’ve discussed in the Legislature with affordable housing for low- to moderate-income people, Mr. Speaker – it’s important that the opposition recognizes that we are working toward this regard for people at risk. Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, the shelters are bursting at the seams.

To the Minister of Children’s Services: will the minister admit that this government is failing its responsibility to ensure that children, impoverished and struggling children, are properly supported when children and even babies end up in shelters for homeless adults? Mrs. Forsyth: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that our ministry takes care of those who are vulnerable. For anybody who comes in seeking help in any of our authorities here, we do the best we can. We provide the services that we can under the ministry, and we’ll continue to do that. Dr.

Taft: To the same minister: can the minister explain to the over 100,000 impoverished children in Alberta what the Alberta advan- tage is and where they can find it? Mrs. Forsyth: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can tell this member that any child or family that needs help under our ministry is helped. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Nutrition Programs for Schools Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Poverty in the midst of plenty.

Today as we speak here now, 1 in 5 Alberta children is living in poverty and is at risk of poor nutrition, yet when asked yesterday about hot lunch programs in schools, the Minister of Education shrugged off the issue and pointed people needing a meal to a website. This morning while the Minister of Education was having his breakfast, 3,000 children in Edmonton alone were going hungry, stuck on waiting lists for oversubscribed school lunch programs. To

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1779 the Minister of Education: why won’t this government commit now to a hot lunch program for all Alberta children at risk? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you very much. I think that as I was having a bit of breakfast, the hon. opposition leader was enjoying a breakfast as well, and I don’t recall him having raised this then. The short answer to this question, Mr.

Speaker, is simply that we do see several school boards already who provide hot lunch programs or who provide breakfast programs, and they do it in a very nice way with the community agency partners in some cases and in other cases with parents who are showing up as volunteers to assist. I did indicate in my answers yesterday what it is that we were planning to do by way of looking at this issue, and I would just refer the hon. leader to please refer to yesterday’s Hansard. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given that there are 3,000 children on waiting lists for school hot lunch programs in this minister’s city, is it this government’s position that it should stand back and let Alberta children go hungry because their parents can’t feed them? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I did indicate as part of the answer yesterday that if there are members in this House who know that there are families in need, we have support programs either through Children’s Services or through Human Resources and Employment.

For heaven’s sake, please let those families know what those programs are, and if you won’t, then direct them to us, and we will. Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, to the same minister: given that there are 3,000 kids on waiting lists right now, what ideology is this minister standing on that justifies his openly accepting that t housands of impoverished children are going hungry in Alberta schools today? Mr. Zwozdesky: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is a serious issue, I’m sure, and I don’t appreciate the inflammation that is being given to it, the tone of it. We have locally elected school boards.

There are some members of those school boards in our galleries today, and they do have flexibility to address these policies, and many of them do. I’m sure that once the Edmonton public school board or the Edmonton Catholic school board see these issues coming forward, they do their best to help out and address them or direct them to places where help is available, and that program seems to be working relatively well. If there are some improvements needed toward it, then surely there are ways of addressing those particular problems as well. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Manning. Employment of Children Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The United Nations conven- tion on the rights of the child states: “Parties recognize the right of the child to rest and leisure, to engage in play and recreational activities appropriate to the age of the child.” This government has lowered child employment restrictions to 12 years old for work in restaurants. It has asked in its recent review if this should be extended even further. We’re not talking paper routes and farm chores here. My question is to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

How far is the minister prepared to go in putting 12-year-old grade 6ers into the workforce? Mr. Cardinal: Mr. Speaker, of course, part of the review of the minimum wage, for an example, which was increased recently, also dealt with youth employment. We made sure when the program was announced that the youth were well protected, giving the parents the opportunity to determine if it is safe for their children to work at certain places. It also gave the employer the opportunity to assess the situation as far as safety.

What will have to happen is that both the parent and the employer have to sign a form, which is a checklist to show that the place is safe and that the parent has agreed that the young person should be working in an environment like that. The responsibility is up to the parent to determine that, and I think that’s a good move. 1:50 The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: does the minister expect 12-year-old grade 6ers to be contributing to the upkeep of the family household even if they are foster children? Mr. Cardinal: That is, of course, not the plan, Mr.

Speaker, to force children to work. There are lots of jobs out there. It’s only fair to give the opportunity for any youth that wants to work, the opportu- nity for any employer that wants to hire youth, and the opportunity for the parent to decide – for the parent to decide – if the youth is in a position to work by going through this process that is really complicated to fill out and sign. They take the responsibility. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary to the same minister: will this minister tell us how many Albertans both in his department’s surveys and letters, e-mails, and calls have complained about the initiatives to increase child labour in our province? Mr. Cardinal: Mr. Speaker, I don’t have that figure in my hands here right now, but I will provide it in writing to the member. The Speaker: The hon. leader of the third party, followed by the hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere. Securities Commission Investigation Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The Alberta Securities Commission director of enforcement is the top cop policing the Alberta securities market. As such, his conduct needs to be beyond reproach, but he was caught red-handed by the Auditor General making a significant profit trading shares in a company that he was responsible for investigating. My question is to the Minister of Finance.

Given that the ASC’s top securities enforcer made a significant financial gain on a short-term, speculative investment in a company under ASC investigation, why does the minister refuse to acknowledge possible violation of the rules against insider trading and that this should be investigated? Mrs. McClellan: Well, first of all, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member infers that this was only noticed because the Auditor General caught it. In fact, the reason that the Auditor General caught it is because it was documented in the files. There was nothing hidden about that. Mr.

Speaker, on the same line of questioning yesterday I informed

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051780 the hon. member that there will be a complete statement outlining the events, the chronological occurrence of those events. I did check before I came into the House today because I know how important this matter is, and I know that the hon. member wants the answer. I was informed that it wasn’t ready today, but it is their hope that they will have it tomorrow. I made the commitment that when that statement that outlines all of the events surrounding this is available, I’d be happy to discuss it further. Mr.

Speaker, I have never suggested that this was not a breach of the conflict-of-interest policy of the Alberta Securities Commission. Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, if the minister has never denied that it was a breach, why is she asking for chr onology instead of taking action to ensure that either discipline occurs or, in fact, a criminal investigation into insider trading occurs? Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, as I said, I think that if you have all of the events before you, you would be better able to question what should happen. There has been a full investigation on this matter by the Securities Commission.

There is a sequence of events that occurred, and I again invite the hon. member to ask me further questions when he has the opportunity to see that in its fullness. Mr. Mason: Well, Mr. Speaker, maybe we’re getting somewhere, but it remains to be seen. What does the minister think will come about as a result of the chronology?

If the chronology shows that, in fact, as she says, there were serious breaches of the internal policies of the ASC or a prima facie case of criminal activity, insider trading, then is she going to commit to this House that she will take prompt and decisive action to make sure that wrongdoers are brought to justice? Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, as I’ve outlined over and over and over again, the Auditor General in his report clearly lays out this issue, three pages, in fact, on this.

The Auditor General in my review of the report – now, he may have read something different, and I’d look forward to his sending me something over – has not suggested criminal activity. I remind the hon. member and all members of this House that it was I who asked the Auditor General to perform this audit as speedily and efficiently as he possibly could, which in fact he did. What the Auditor General did do in his report is provide two recommendations on processes that would be put in place to ensure as much as possible that this could not happen again.

The Securities Commission, prior to the Auditor General’s report, had not only put stronger measures in place but have committed to have those measures suggested by the Auditor General reviewed and in place by January 1, 2006, which is about 30-some days from today. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Avian Influenza Ms Haley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency recently announced positive test results for avian influenza in two separate cases: the first regarding the H strain found in wild ducks in Manitoba and Quebec and the second being a duck testing positive on a commercial farm in British Columbia. These an- nouncements will certainly heighten awareness and concerns for avian influenza right across Canada. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. Could the minister please explain what kind of plans the province has in place to protect our poultry industry? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr.

Horner: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. A very good question. Alberta’s poultry industry and all of our feather industry in the province have learned some valuable lessons from the experiences in B.C. of 2004. I would like to in this forum congratulate the poultry industry for a well-defined plan of action that they have in place. We’ve taken a number of steps, and we have a number of protocols and plans in place to mitigate any type of outbreak that we might have in the province.

We have a surveillance system ongoing right now on commercial poultry and backyard flocks, where we test dead birds that might be at a higher risk of having avian influenza, or AI. We also work with the veterinarians across the province, Mr. Speaker, under a surveillance network and an early warning system, if you will, to report anything that might have a zoonosis aspect to it or to detect animal diseases. As well, we are part of a new program, a national surveillance program, to detect the prevalence of avian influenza in Canada’s wild waterfowl population.

Our preparation and planning are ongoing and change as required. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Haley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first supplemental goes to the same minister. Given that test results on wild birds have been announced for Quebec, Manitoba, and British Columbia, when can we expect the announcement of results for Alberta? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Horner: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I mentioned previously, we are participating with the Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre as part of a national surveillance program to determine that prevalence.

As the hon. member mentioned, there have been some announcements of results in some of the other provinces. We have completed 580 tests of the 800 samples that we have. To date we have not identified H5 or H7 strains. We do expect that the work on the rest of the tests will be done either by the end of this week or very early next week. It is important to note that the recent positive test results found in Quebec and British Columbia and Manitoba of the wild waterfowl weren’t unexpected. There’s no increased threat to public health.

Various types of avian influenza have been found in healthy waterfowl for well over a hundred years, for as far back as we know. As the federal and other provincial counterparts have mentioned already, the H5N1 strain that was found in two Manitoba wild ducks is not the same Asian strain that we hear so much about. It is what they would consider low pathogenetic, which means that these viruses would only cause a mild disease, if any, in the waterfowl. Ms Haley: My last supplemental, Mr. Speaker, is for the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development.

Since wild birds, especially waterfowl, seem to be the source of the virus, is there anything being done to make sure that waterfowl hunters are safe when they handle or consume this meat? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Coutts: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s really important to note that there are no new threats to waterfowl or to hunters as a result of the recent reports of the influenza virus in Canadian wild birds. These viruses typically are present in wild birds and have very little effect on the health of wild birds. So that’s important to

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1781 note. Alberta has good information on the viruses in wild birds, and we certainly are a key partner in the current national survey. To answer the question directly, to protect hunters, it is recommended that careful handling, cleanliness of course, and proper refrigeration as well as proper cooking precautions be taken in handling wild birds. That is definitely our recommendation. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-North Hill. 2:00 Aboriginal Issues Mr. Tougas: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The first ministers’ meeting on aboriginal issues begins in Kelowna on Thursday, and aboriginal peoples right across the country are looking forward to this event with great anticipation and hope for a better future. My question is for the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. The federal government is prepared to spend billions of new dollars on aboriginal issues to help break the cycle of poverty. What is your ministry prepared to bring to this meeting? Ms Calahasen: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to thank you for that question. I really appreciate it.

As you know, the Premier and I are going to be attending the meeting, the FMM, on the 24th and 25th of this month. That’s actually Thursday and Friday. To be able to prepare for that, I have met with First Nations across this province and the Métis community and their organizations, and they have certainly provided us with some information that we could utilize as we’re dealing with the issues as they come forward from the first ministers. For your information, the First Nations and the Métis people of this province have indicated that no one speaks on their behalf but themselves.

They do have a spokesperson, Grand Chief Sandford Big Plume, whom they’ve requested to be at the table so that he can also bring the message that the Premier and I will be bringing to the table. It is very important for us to be able to look at what’s coming down. As you know, the money that supposedly is coming down: we have no information as to what amount it will be; we have no information as to how the delivery process will be. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, we are making every attempt to make sure that what the First Nations and the Métis people of this province want is going to be at the table. Mr.

Tougas: So the answer is nothing then. Thank you. Why has not one cent of the government’s unbudgeted surplus gone towards addressing the specific needs of Alberta’s aboriginal people? Ms Calahasen: Mr. Speaker, this is really a fantastic question. I’m going to ask all those ministries that have provided some guidance and some dollars that will be going towards the First Nations and the Métis people of this province. I’ll just give you an example. First of all, we have had what we call traditional land-use studies.

As a result, we have spent about $1.5 million for traditional land-use studies, which the First Nations of Alberta have been requesting so that they can map historically where they’ve been. We’ve also looked at economic initiatives, Mr. Speaker. On the economic side we have put I think about another million and a half to see how we can identify where the First Nations can begin to be involved and how we can help them to ensure that business plans can be developed. Mr.

Speaker, on the tourism side we have also had an aboriginal tourism council established mainly to look at the tourism aspects of what’s possible in this province w ith the help of the First Nations and the Métis community, not the Liberals but the Métis and the First Nations community. I’m going to ask some of my colleagues . . . The Speaker: Well, may I ask the hon. Member for Edmonton- Meadowlark to proceed with his third question. Mr. Tougas: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So it’s nothing then. No new money. Nothing at all.

With the Alberta economy experiencing unprecedented resource- based prosperity, why is the aboriginal community still not enjoying the benefits of the so-called Alberta advantage? Ms Calahasen: Mr. Speaker, first of all, we on this side of the government and that side certainly understand the needs of the aboriginal community, and that’s the reason why we believe that working with the aboriginal community is probably the number one priority of this government.

As a result, what we have done is work with that community to be able to identify, first of all, the capacity issue within the First Nations and, secondly, the economic possibili- ties with the First Nations so that they can take advantage of the Alberta advantage, as you have identified, and, thirdly, to make sure that government has the capacity to be able to work with the First Nations and the Métis community so that we can begin to see the economic possibilities that this province has to offer. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-North Hill, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre.

Calgary Ring Road Southwest Portion Mr. Magnus: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The province and the Tsuu T’ina nation need to have a land transfer agreement in place in order to start building the desperately needed southwest portion of Calgary’s ring road. A draft agreement was to be in place by November 1 of this year, but the deadline was not met. My question for the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation: why was the deadline missed? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Through to the hon. member, the extension of the deadline should not be viewed as a setback in this particular negotiation. The Tsuu T’ina nation and my department, the chief and myself, are actually working very closely together to come to this particular agreement. What happened, Mr. Speaker, is that we had an agreement where we each would pick an appraiser if we had to and then a third appraiser would come and rule on what the two appraisers said. What we did, which is actually quite unprecedented, is agree on the same appraiser.

So even though we are seeing a little bit more delay on the initial side of the project, we are hoping, because of this particular feat that was accomplished, that we will see an expedition of the particular project in question, the ring road. It’s actually very, very positive. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Magnus: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that this is a bilateral deal between the province and the Tsuu T’ina nation and because of

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051782 the enormous impact on the city of Calgary, have the mayor and council been active in these negotiations? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, the mayor and council have not been active in these particular negotiations. These are negotiations purely between the province and the Tsuu T’ina. However, we have been keeping the mayor and council completely up to date on everything that is occurring. These negotiations are between us and the Tsuu T’ina nation. They truly impact the city of Calgary, and therefore we are keeping them absolutely up to date as to what is occurring.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Magnus: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My second supplemental to the same minister: when will c onstruction start on the southwest portion of Calgary’s ring road? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much. Our prediction is that we should be able to get started by the fall of 2007. There are some wild cards in this, Mr. Speaker. One of the issues, of course, is that they have to go to the federal government to get a decrease in the size of their reservation.

What we’re looking at doing is actually purchasing some land from the Tsuu T’ina nation, and for any change in the boundaries they have to go and have an OC at the federal govern- ment. We anticipate that this could actually take a year, although if there tends to be a different government in place in Ottawa, who knows? The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, followed by the hon. Member for Leduc-Beaumont-Devon. Health Care Costs Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week the health minister listed for the Assembly the costs of treatment for certain procedures.

If you had a stroke, it would be $25,000 if you spent four days in bed. If you had a child that was born premature and spent 42 days in an ICU, it would be $42,000. If you had a kidney transplant, it would be $37,200. This government rationalizes that advertising the price tag of a procedure will affect the use of health care. My questions are all to the Minister of Health and Wellness. Does the minister honestly believe that a patient would look at the price of a kidney transplant and decide to go with a cheaper therapy? Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, as has been duly noted, it’s about account- ability.

It’s about making people sensitive. On the floor of the AAMD and C just last week I was asked why we don’t provide everybody an itemized costing of what they’ve actually spent. I have always responded in two ways. One of the reasons why we don’t usually do that is because of the privacy issues and the legislation we have around privacy and the freedom individuals have to protect their own privacy. If we, for example, sent a notice to a dad, and the mother and the daughter and the son were on that notice, what they had spent on healthcare, it may not protect the privacy of the individuals also on that card.

The second reason, Mr. Speaker, is that in different communities, in different regions it’s very hard and it’s very elaborate to cost out exactly how you represent that cost, whether it’s facility costs and some of the other measures that could be costed. What I am actually responding to is not only a public request for information but a request from several people to know what we’re spending, how we’re spending it so they can judge for themselves if they’re getting value for the dollars that are spent. It’s nothing more than that. 2:10 The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: how does knowing the cost of an operation shorten a wait list or make a procedure more successful? Ms Evans: Oh, it has nothing to do with procedures being more successful. What it actually does, though, is enable people to understand what value they’re getting when they go to the doctor. Many people today, Mr. Speaker, are looking forward to our electronic health record. Why? One of the biggest complaints I get is that if they have a test in Lloydminster and come into the city and have to have another test, they’re conscious that it costs money.

Many of these people, particularly seniors, want not to waste our system but to use our system in the very best way possible. That’s why we’re talking about costs. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you. To the minister again: how does knowing the cost of a procedure make health care better? It doesn’t shorten the wait list. It doesn’t make it better. Ms Evans: You know, there are several things that can make health care better. One is the individual’s duty and responsibility to themselves to look after their own health care, and that’s important.

The second responsibility is for a government to support that person in executing their duty to be well. Mr. Speaker, there wouldn’t be billions of dollars spent in North America if people weren’t con- cerned about . . . [interjections] Mr. Speaker, why should I answer? They’re not even interested. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Leduc-Beaumont-Devon, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Learning Assessment Mr. Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Teachers in my constituency have raised some questions and concerns about two initiatives known as GLA and CAA.

My first question is to the Minister of Education. Can he please explain what grade level achievement is and what computer adaptive assessment is, and what’s the difference between the two? The Speaker: Hon. member, we’re dealing with questions on government policy here, not

interpretation of words. Now, hon. minister, with a great deal of trepidation, go forth. Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, actually, the hon. member has hit on a couple of contentious issues in the communities, and these were raised today in some private discussions with school board members. I’ll be very brief. Basically, GLA, or grade level achievement, is simply a method by which a teacher will indicate to a parent whether or not that child is performing at grade level standard or not

whereas CAA, a completely different initiative, computer adaptive assess- ment, will simply be a computerized assessment vehicle that will be available for teachers to use with students on an optional basis if they wish.

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1783 The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the minister: could you explain why your department is pursuing these initiatives? Mr. Zwozdesky: Well, in a nutshell, Mr. Speaker, GLA is going to be an important way for parents to know whether or not their children are performing to a grade level expectation and, if not, at what grade level they are in fact performing. CAA, on the other hand, is necessary to pursue because this is a met hod of helping teachers assess students.

It’s simply another tool in the assessment package, in the tool chest, if you will. It provides immediate results on certain aspects of the curriculum, which will tell a teacher in almost an instant how that student is doing in that particular area. So those are two reasons why we’re pursuing those. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the minister: could you explain to us your implementation timeline and what costs we can anticipate? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr.

Speaker, GLA is actually an initiative that has been worked on by ministry officials and by the ATA and by the Alberta School Boards Association since about the year 2000. About a year and a half ago or so a couple of schools were identified to pilot it – six or seven schools I believe was the case. This year we hope to have every school board identify only one school where GLA reporting will be done. Then perhaps a year or two after that we should be able to implement it system-wide so that teachers will have it and parents will know what grade level their kids are at. The costs are negligible.

They’re absorbed in the department. CAA, on the other hand, will roughly be a million dollars per year over the next three years. It’s an advanced state of computer technology used by many entities. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Centennial Project Funding Mr. Agnihotri: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This summer the Mill Woods Presidents’ Council was denied a centennial grant to help support its centennial and Canada Day celebration. Sixty thousand people attended a real celebration there.

I personally spoke to the minister, who informed me that there were no centennial funds available. Very recently this government awarded $5.5 million for a centennial grant to a prominent filmmaker after a private meeting with the minister and the Premier. My questions are for the Minister of Community Development. How was the deal brokered? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, the $5.5 million that was put towards the project regarding the film Passchendaele, which is Paul Gross’s film, was an extraordinary opportunity for two reasons.

One, it’s the centennial year, and Passchendaele is a significant element of Canada’s history. There’s a particular Alberta story with the four regiments from Alberta that participated in the battle of Passchen- daele, which was part of Vimy Ridge and largely viewed by historians as being a place that was Canada’s coming of age. Secondly, it is, of course, the Year of the Veteran. The combination of these two things made good sense for us through a program that we have where we support film development in the province of Alberta. Currently that program is worth $13.5 billion.

But this was viewed as a particularly valuable add ition to the celebration of the centennial and the Year of the Veteran together, to put $5.5 million over and above our existing budget for the film development program. Mr. Agnihotri: To the same minister: does this mean that only prominent artists deserve provincial support or the ear of the Premier? Mr. Mar: The reality, Mr. Speaker, is that we’ve supported artists throughout the entire centennial year, as we often do through the Alberta Foundation for the Arts each and every year.

As an example, the member opposite would be well aware of Alberta Scene, where approximately 600 artists went to Ottawa, put on some 95 different presentations in several dozen venues. The reality is that through the annual budget of the Alberta Foundation for the Arts hundreds of artists, thousands, in fact, are supported throughout this province. This is a very important part of the quality of life in the province of Alberta and something that Albertans appreciate greatly. Mr. Agnihotri: To the same minister: did the minister consult any stakeholders before handing over public dollars for private films, please?

Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, we’re constantly engaged in the consultation with stakeholders not only in the arts but in all areas of government enterprise. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. Public Accounts Committee Mr. Eggen: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of changes needed to improve this Legislative Assembly’s oversight of over $27 billion in public expenditures. These changes include allowing the Standing Committee on Public Accounts to meet outside of session and to question the heads of public bodies like health regions.

The federal government and other provinces have already implemented these kinds of changes to improve legislative oversight. My question is to the chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Can the chair outline the difficulties the current restriction on committee meetings poses for the effective oversight of public finances in this province? Speaker’s Ruling Questions about a Legislative Committee The Speaker: We have a tradition and methodology for dealing with such questions, and the chair has allowed questions to the chairman of select standing committees dealing with agenda items. That’s about it.

All other matters shoul d be dealt with in the committee. Failing that, various House leaders might want to come together and review the Standing Orders. So second question, the hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. 2:20 Mr. Martin: Point of order. The Speaker: Absolutely. I surely expected that. Public Accounts Committee (continued) Mr. Eggen: I’ll ask my second question, directed to the Government

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051784 House Leader then, please, Mr. Speaker. Given the interest in the government caucus for improvements in the oversight function of the Public Accounts Committee, does the government support making such changes, and if so, when and how? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Government House Leader is accountable to the Premier and the government caucus, not to the Legislature.

I am accountable to the Legislature in my capacity as Minister of Advanced Education and would be pleased to answer any questions from the hon. member with respect to accountability for public policy in Advanced Education. Mr. Eggen: To the Government House Leader: would you be interested in supporting, if the opportunity arose, increasing and diversifying the powers of the Public Accounts Committee to help for a financial oversight here in this Assembly? Mr. Hancock: Mr. Speaker, what I am personally interested in is of absolutely no relevance to the House.

I’m here in my capacity as the minister responsible and accountable for public policy of Advanced Education, and it would be inappropriate and improper for me to answer a question with respect to my personal interests. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. English as a Second Language Programs Mr. Cao: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Recently our government announced a long-term and short-term strategy regarding human resource development for Alberta.

We encourage people to come from all over Canada and the world, and according to Statistics Canada 17 per cent of our population indicate that English is not their mother tongue. This number is growing to 25 per cent in the next 10 years. The ability of the English language is very important to our economic development and our social harmony. So my question to the Minister of Education: given that our hard-working minister has spent time with 62 school boards across the province, can you tell us what you are going to do to address the ESL issues? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr.

Speaker, this is a very important issue and a great question because ESL needs are growing in many parts of our province. It’s true that we are actively recruiting more immigrants to our province to help fill skilled labour shortages, and others are coming here because of the tremendous economic climate and so on and so on. Of course, many of those children do present with language needs, specifically English as a second language.

So as part of my meetings with all 62 school boards over the last few weeks we did talk about the renewed funding framework, and the member will be happy to know that I recently appointed a ministerial advisory committee to study the renewed funding framework and the ESL pieces within that. So it will get a very thor ough review, and I expect to have those results I hope by the end of February. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the same minister.

Given that the Coalition for Equal Access to Education did a comprehensive study and made a specific recommendation on ESL to the government last August, can the minister tell us how he plans to respond to this specific report? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, that was indeed a very passionate presentation by that coalition group on a very important issue to them and to us and I’m sure to all Albertans.

As I’ve just indicated, there will be this re view done of the renewed funding framework, but I should also let the member know that there is a review going on as well of the entire K to 12 system with respect to what it might take to help give students that extra hand up, that extra boost if you will. One issue that surfaced is the issue of the cap. At the moment five years of ESL education is being provided, and I think they were advocating for it to be increased to seven, so we will look at that.

I should also just conclude by saying that there was an adult review group who did some similar work, and we’re looking at those items as well. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: given, as an example, that the Calgary board of education indicates a huge increase in ESL students, from 3,870 in 1995 to 15,493 in 2005, and the parents of these students are working very hard for our economy, what is the minister doing to help in such a situation of increase? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr.

Speaker, I am very sharply aware of Calgary’s need in this area and Fort McMurray’s and a few other places that are really bustling with more immigrant workers and so on. In particular, with the Calgary situation, as I recall, their budget would have increased by about 75 per cent over the last year or so. In fact, ESL program funding throughout the province over the last couple of years has increased by about 68 per cent. I will acknowledge that there is some additional work to be done there, and that’s why I called for the review. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora, followed by the hon.

Member for Red Deer-North. Mental Illness and the Criminal Justice System Dr. B. Miller: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The criminal justice system in Alberta is becoming a warehouse for mentally ill people. Prisons and the police are not equipped to deal with people suffering from mental illness. Failure to address this problem can have tragic results. My questions are for the Solicitor General and Minister of Public Security.

Given that the fatality inquiry into the death of an RCMP corporal and mentally ill gunman in Spruce Grove has clearly indicated that police feel powerless when dealing with the mentally ill, will the minister immediately implement special training for all police officers to effectively and safely deal with the mentally ill? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Cenaiko: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. That is a very good question. During recruit training in both Calgary and Edmonton and I believe the RCMP as well they have a number of individuals that come from the community.

Some of them come with disabilities to sp eak to the officers re garding their culture. Some come from the gay and lesbian community. Some come from the seniors’ community. As well, we have individuals that do come with a mental health illness or i ssue. So our officers are trained. They are aware of it. This member states that additional training should be required. Mr. Speaker, our police officers throughout this province receive continual training in a number of different areas, and from the fatality inquiry obviously this one will be placed on the agenda as well.

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1785 Dr. B. Miller: To the same minister: given the fact that at least 12 per cent of inmates across Canada are seriously mentally ill, what steps is the minister taking to implement treatment programs in our prisons? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Cenaiko: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We strongly support initiatives within our correction centres that provide for programs for individuals with mental health illnesses. The issue is that one of the reasons why they may be in the justice system is the fact that they may have a mental illness.

We have programs throughout the province through the Alberta Mental Health Board, which received funding this year to assist in the diversion services, but these are also addressed when they are going through the court system. The Crown prosecutors are very well aware of what some of these issues are. So, yes, we have facilities that we have to place offenders in within the correction system, but we do provide programs for them because of the fact that they do have mental illness issues. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. B. Miller: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister.

It’s been reported over and over again that funding is the main obstacle to viable treatment programs for the mentally ill. Can the minister tell us when this government will provide the necessary s upport to treat the mentally ill in the prison system? The safety of the public and the police is at stake. Mr. Cenaiko: Mr. Speaker, I’d just like to clarify. The average length of stay in our corrections facilities in Alberta is 33 days and 13 days in our remand centres.

During that period of time, when they do come in and they are incarcerated in a corrections facility, we assess them through the caseworkers that we have, psychologists that are employed by us, nurses that are employed by us, and we look at the program that they may need. If they do have a mental health illness, obviously they’re going to be placed in various programs so that we can try to assist them in that short period of time that they are with us. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. 2:30 Red Deer River Water Transfer Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, my constituents in Red Deer are very concerned about a project that proposes taking water from the Red Deer River and diverting it south to the special areas. They are concerned about the transfer of raw water from one river basin to another. They are concerned about a report that says that the project is neither an efficient nor effective use of this resource. My questions are for the Minister of Environment. What is the minister doing to ensure that there is enough water available for this project in good times and in bad and that the soil that is to be irrigated will be productive? Mr.

Boutilier: Mr. Speaker, it’s such an important issue any time that this Legislature by law under the Water Act considers transfer- ring from one basin to another, as the hon. member has mentioned. Presently the top priority of this ministry is to, number one, ensure that water is provided to the existing, those with licences and users, and second of all to protect the environment but also to meet our provincial commitments in the water licences that we have already issued. In fact, at this particular point in time I want to say that we have an approach, what is called first in time, first in right.

To the city of Red Deer and its residents, I want you to know, Mr. Speaker and members of the Assembly, that the current licences would also have a higher priority than any proposed new project that would come forward. So it’s very important that this transfer would end up in this Assembly if, in fact, determined. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you. To the same minister: I understand that this project has received support from the communities it will serve, but what kind of consultation was done outside those special areas? Mr. Boutilier: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is absolutely correct in the fact that this project is well supported in the special areas. In fact, they have held 11 open houses, which impacted over 700 Albertans. I also want to say that citizens from the Red Deer area were part of that consultation. But before this project proceeds, I want to confirm a complete, concise consultation. It will be thorough, it will be complete, and everyone that has an interest will be consulted. Just to give you, finally, an example, presently the Special Areas Board is consulting with our First Nations.

Of course, their views are equally important on this issue as well. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you. Again to the Minister of Environment: given that this project will cost hundreds of millions of dollars but only benefit hundreds of people, will this minister present a cost- benefit analysis of the project before it proceeds? Mr. Boutilier: I think, Mr. Speaker, that the suggestion of a cost- benefit analysis is very important. Part of the rural development strategy, as you know, in this area – it’s a very dry area.

Before any dollars or any type of situation of transferring water from one basin to another is determined, a complete, concise consultation will take place. But I can assure you that if any decision is brought back to this Assembly, clearly a cost-benefit analysis would demonstrate that there is definitely a need and a purpose for it in benefiting Albertans, who require this blue gold resource that we call water. The Speaker: Hon. members, in a few seconds from now I’ll call upon the first of six hon. members to participate in Members’ Statements.

Hon. members, one year ago today, on November 22, 2005, an event occurred in the province of Alberta which saw a member return to this Assembly. We want to congratulate the hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview on his second, I guess, return to this Assembly and to congratulate as well 27 other members who were elected to this Assembly for the first time. To the Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie, the Member for Edmonton-Manning, the Member for Edmonton-Decore, the Member for Calgary-Nose Hill, the Member for Calgary-Varsity, the Member for Edmonton-Calder, the Member for Edmonton- McClung, the Member for St.

Albert, the Member for Highwood, the Member for Cardston-Taber-Warner, the Member for Calgary-Hays, the Member for Calgary-West, the Member for Stony Plain, the Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods, the Member for Edmonton- Rutherford, the Member for Edmonton-Glenora, the Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat, the Member for Foothills-Rocky View, the

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051786 Member for Peace River, the Member for Lethbridge-East, the Member for Lacombe-Ponoka, the Member for Calgary-Lougheed, the Member for Leduc-Beaumont-Devon, the Member for Calgary- Mountain View, the Member for Calgary-Currie, the Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark, the Member for Calgary-Foothills, it is now your first anniversary. All excuses now end. head: Members’ Statements The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. International Students Mr. Cao: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Whenever the subject of international students is mentioned, most likely we think of college and university studies. Today I rise to speak about international students in our Alberta’s school system. I want to use the interna- tional student program of the Calgary board of education as a typical example. The Calgary board of education offers to international students from all over the world the Alberta world-class education system, that includes ESL, high school credit courses, academic preparation for university, college , and technical institutions, with their highly trained and experienced staff.

The CBE founded its International Bureau on the belief that international students are appreciated as assets academically, culturally, and financially to CBE students, staff, and the Calgary community. CBE staff and students benefit from the cultural, intellectual, and economic resources international students bring. Currently over a hundred international students study in CBE elementary and secondary schools. Nearly 130 international students who are 18 years and older study at Chinook College, and teachers from Japan, Mexico, Korea, Taiwan have participated in professional development offered by the CBE. Mr.

Speaker, the story of international study can be found in other school systems across our province. International students in our school system help to pay for the cost and more and help to make the space utilization more efficient in some sc hools, but most impor- tantly they are the future of their countries. They are Alberta’s long- term investment for our valuable international relationship in the global network. The Alberta government needs to capitalize on and develop further and faster this international student opportunity as many other jurisdictions are already ahead of us. Thank you.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw. Edwin Parr Education Awards Mrs. Ady: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This year the government of Alberta will invest $4.7 billion in support of kindergarten to grade 12 education. It’s a huge investment that returns huge dividends. Alberta’s kindergarten to grade 12 education system is among the best in the world, and our students are head of the class in national and international tests.

Our centrally developed curriculum is acclaimed ar ound the world, and we have outstanding t eachers, teachers who help our children and youth to grow as individuals and to acquire the skills and capabilities that they need to make informed choices and become good citizens. In short, teachers are integral to the excellence in education, and each year the Alberta School Boards Association recognizes six exceptional first-year teachers with the Edwin Parr awards. The award recipients demonstrate excellence in using instructional strategies to reach students who have different needs.

Last week the Edwin Parr recipients were Shane Clark of Roland Michener secondary school in Slave Lake, Kristy Purcell of Father J.A. Turcotte school in Fort McMurray, Fred Wilkes of Parkdale school in Edmonton, Erin Bodnar of St. Francis Assisi middle school in Red Deer, Stephen Kotkas of Tom Baines junior high school in Calgary, and Brandon Fletcher from Lethbridge Collegiate Institute. Mr. Speaker, let us all thank and congratulate these outstanding new teachers. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere. Centennial Events in Airdrie Ms Haley: Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker, for this opportunity to address the House briefly about the centennial. I have always loved my province. It was ingrained into me by my father. He was the guy who would stop his truck on the border of Alberta and get out and kiss the ground whenever he would return from B.C. or Saskatchewan. He taught me that if you work hard and you look after this province, this province will look after you. He would have been very proud of Alberta this year as we r eached our 100th birthday. A highlight this year was the visit from the Queen. I had a chance to invite my mom to have lunch in the presence of the Queen.

It was just a great day for both of us. Amidst the lineup of parades and functions throughout my constituen cy organized to celebrate the centennial, there were three that stood out the most. First was being able to present Eva Wagner with a gold medal for her 100th birthday. Truly an amazing lady, still talking about getting married if she can just find the right man. I liked her immediately. 2:40 Another memorable event was the celebration at the Jones Hereford ranch.

Their family received the centennial family farm award, a family like many others that have been here since we became a province and have had a huge impact on the ec onomic diversity of Alberta. The best night of all, Mr. Speaker, was just a few weeks ago, when we had our centennial medal presentation. All of the recipi- ents were nominated by various community organizations in my constituency. Everyone who received an award that night has made a mark on Alberta and mostly because they volunteered for every- thing from the local 4-H to lo cal community committees to make their province a better place to live.

It was an incredible honour to be able to meet with and present medals to this group of outstanding individuals. We had a high tea at the legion in Airdrie, and as part of our evening Staff Sergeant Garth Patterson was there to present medals with me. The medal nominees that night reflect only a small portion of the worthy Albertans who should have received a centennial medal, Mr. Speaker. There are just so many of them. We have a province built by great entrepreneurs who also understand the importance of giving back to the community and getting involved. Mr.

Speaker, it truly will be a year that I will remember forever. I am very proud to be an Albertan. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed. Alcohol and Drug Abuse Commission Mr. Rodney: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’ll make my comments in the spirit of our esteemed colleague from Airdrie- Chestermere. During this centennial year in this House, in Calgary-

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1787 Lougheed, and across this province as chair of the Alberta Alcohol and Drug Abuse Commission I’ve learned a great deal about what makes this province so great. Later today as an example of this I’ll be tabling the AADAC annual report. Right now for the information of our members and their cons tituents I’ll list just a few of AADAC’s good works in the recent past with a very quick glimpse to the future.

Last month AADAC partnered with the Lung Association and the Canadian Cancer Society to launch a new online smoking cessation site, albertaquits.ca, and a thousand Albertans have registered since its launch as they access support in their attempts to quit smoking. Last week AADAC launched the Alberta drug strategy. It’s a five-year plan that sets a vision and an action framework for a co- ordinated, collaborative approach to prevent and treat the harms caused by alcohol and other drug abuse.

At the same time, AADAC opened new residential addiction treatment programs in Edmonton and Calgary that fit within the framework of the Alberta drug strategy. These programs include 24 beds which serve youth aged 12 to 17. In addition to services such as these provided by AADAC, government has developed a co-ordinated response to methamphet- amine that reflects provincial priorities for health renewal, and the co-ordinated response includes TV commercials targeted at youth and parents, strong support for local drug coalitions, educational materials, and curriculum-aligned school resources.

Yesterday we kicked off National Addictions Awareness Week, the goal of which is to provide information and promote activities that generate awareness of substance abuse and gambling problems and solutions. Mr. Speaker, as we look forward, it’s worthy of note that on Canada Day 2006 Bill 202 will become law. This bill will give provincial authorities and parents the power to place children under the age of 18 into drug detox and assessment programs. Thank you to all members for your assistance with AADAC and its initiatives. The Speaker: The hon. Member for St. Albert. Vocational Education Mr.

Flaherty: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I’d like to address vocational education in Alberta’s future. As Alberta’s economy charges forward in the next hundred years, I pause to reflect on the important role an education system should be playing in preparing future workers. I’m particularly concerned about preparation for careers in the skilled trades. I don’t believe we are taking the right steps now to ensure that high school students can assess the rewards of a vocational career. Our future depends on the contribution of skilled workers, a process that begins in the publicly funded school system.

I spent a career in education. I’ve spoken to many Albertans in my role as the Education critic. I’ve come to the conclusion that a number of changes are necessary. Vocational education must be seen as equal and not the lesser cousin of academic learning. The current system is focused on students who continue to go to university, but the reality is that only about a third of high school students choose that route and fewer than that graduate. As I talk to teachers, school boards, parents, and schoolchildren, I hear similar stories everywhere I go.

The schools need greater funding for vocational t eaching facilities. There need to be more teachers trained in teaching vocational skills. Lastly, there is a vital shortage of career counsellors in junior high schools. Grade 9 is vital. Students should be meeting with their counsellor two or three times in th is crucial year to discuss their options for the future. The registered apprenticeship program is a start, but it needs to be critically evaluated, it needs to be better funded, and it needs to improve its completion rates. There are rumblings of change, but we need leadership from this government.

That is why I rise today, to urge this government into action in the support of vocational education. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Norwood. Resource Revenues Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Premier is currently touring Canada trying to show that Alberta’s good fortune is Canada’s good fortune. No one doubts that, but there’s so much more we could be doing if we had a real vision of our province’s place in Canada and the world.

The resource revenue we’re now receiving, not to mention all the forgone revenue we should be receiving through fair royalty rates, is merely a down payment on our future. These are windfall, one- time returns on a rapidly depleting capital asset. That’s how we should think of it when we invest it. The Alberta NDP’s vision for Alberta is that it must become the leader in Canada for renewable energy. In this way we can make sure that this province retains its economic and social advantages long after the oil and gas are gone.

The NDP’s plan for a greener, more diversified provincial economy is built on a foundation of fair royalties for oil and gas. Our current royalty regime was established for $10-a-barrel oil. It’s six times that now, and Albertans need to receive a fair return on their resources. The NDP believes that the resulting additional resource revenues must be invested in a public enterprise that would help transition this province into a world leader in energy efficiency and clean, renewable energy.

We should establish partnerships with municipal- ities, other provinces, the federal government, and the private sector to explore new ways to diversify our economy. Alberta must invest in an energy strategy that will benefit the entire country while retaining full ownership of its resources and the economic benefits that flow from them. An investment in renewable energy will be a way to use Alberta’s energy wealth to benefit the entire country. We can again be leaders and nation builders with a visionary approach to building a renewable energy strategy for the country.

Such an opportunity comes but once in a generation. We can leave our children and grandchildren with the same advantages we enjoy today if only we act. Let’s seize the opportunity, Mr. Speaker. Vignettes from Alberta’s History The Speaker: By way of an historical vignette for the day hon. members might appreciate that a special session of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta wrapped up on this day in 1938. That session was called primarily to deal with legislation regarding oil and gas conservation in the province.

The sitting lasted from November 15 to November 22, and eight bills were passed, the most important of which was Bill 1,

an Act for the Conservation of the Oil and Gas Resources of the Province of Alberta, which gave the Oil and Gas Conservation Board the power to enforce its regulations. That was in 1938, and that came about after an almost 10-year debate in the province of Alberta, from 1928 to 1938, about oil and gas conserva- tion.

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051788 head: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Nose Hill. Dr. Brown: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Standing Committee on Private Bills has had a certain bill under consideration and wishes to report as follows. The committee recommends that the following private bill proceed with amendment: Bill Pr. 4, Brooklynn Hannah George Rewega Right of Civil Action Act. As part of this report I will be tabling five copies of the proposed amendment to Bill Pr. 4. Mr.

Speaker, I request the concu rrence of the Assembly in this recommendation. The Speaker: Will those members in the Assembly who concur in the report please say aye? Hon. Members: Aye. The Speaker: Opposed, please say no. The report is carried. head: Presenting Petitions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Mrs. Mather: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to table a petition signed by 20 constituents requesting an immediate increase to AISH rates “based on the feedback received during the Govern- ment’s low-income review.” The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. Mr.

Backs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’m very pleased to rise to present a petition from 106 Alberta tradesmen and women from the communities of Airdrie, Alix, Caroline, Bonnyville, Lethbridge, Fort Saskatchewan, Stony Plain, Spruce Grove, and others, and it reads: We the undersigned residents of Alberta, petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to prohibit the importation of temporary foreign workers to work on the construc- tion and/or maintenance of oil sands facilities and/or pipelines until the following groups have been accessed and/or trained: Unem- ployed Albertans and Canadians; Aboriginals; unemployed youth under 25; under-employed landed immigrants; and displaced farmers.

Thank you. 2:50 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Mr. Eggen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table a petition with 509 signatures on it. This petition is calling for “a moratorium on any future expansion of Confined Feeding Operations, with a view to phasing out existing operations within the next three years.” Thank you. head: Tabling Returns and Reports The Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the Minister of Finance I’m pleased to table today the response to Written Question 36. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed.

Mr. Rodney: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As chair of the Alberta Alcohol and Drug Abuse Commission it is my pleasure to introduce these five copies of AADAC’s 2004-2005 annual report summariz- ing AADAC’s leadership in delivering services that assist Albertans in achieving freedom from the harmful effects of alcohol, other drugs, and gambling. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings this afternoon.

The first one is a letter dated November 15, 2005, that I r eceived at our constituency office in Edmonton-Gold Bar, and it is from Kane Veterinary Supplies Ltd., which is a business that is writing in regard to the proposed amendment to the Veterinary Profession Act. Thank you. My second tabling is information that I r eceived through access to information from the Department of Energy. This is a series of e- mails going back to November of 2001. They are from Robert.Hemstock@ENRON.com, and they’re addressed to Ricardo Shillingford, <Ricardo.Shillingford@gov.ab.ca>@ENRON.

This is a dedicated government address to Enron, and it outlines close links between Enron and our provincial government. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Mr. Agnihotri: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a letter tabling from constituent Janice Radloff. She’s concerned about family law. She has suggested some very valuable points. She believes that these laws are sexist against fathers’ rights, that no one parent should have all the rights and others have none, that this is discrimination against men. She is urging the government to have a full discussion on family law. Thank you.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ve got two tablings today, which I’d like to table on behalf of my colleague from Edmonton- Highlands-Norwood. The first is a letter from Alice Williamson, who is very concerned that the government’s so-called third way on health care will increase costs, particularly for seniors. The second document is a letter sent to all MLAs from Reverend Lynn Maki on behalf of the Alberta and Northwest Conference of the United Church of Canada.

The church recently passed a motion urging the government of Alberta to recognize the social determi- nants of health and to do a better job of supporting people living on low incomes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: Hon. members, pursuant to

section 28(1) of the Ombudsman Act I am pleased to table with the Assembly the 38th annual report of the office of the Ombudsman for the period April 1, 2004, to March 31, 2005. head: Tablings to the Clerk The Clerk: I wish to advise the House that the following documents were deposited with the office of the Clerk. On behalf of the Hon. Mrs. McClellan, Minister of Finance, pursuant to the Conflicts of Interest Act and the Legislative Assembly Act the report of selected payments to Members and former Members of the Legislative

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1789 Assembly and persons directly associated with Members of the Legislative Assembly for the year ended March 31, 2005. Also on behalf of hon. Mrs. McClellan a report entitled General Revenue Fund: Details of Grants, Supplies and Services, Capital Assets and Other, by Payee for the Year Ended March 31, 2005. On behalf of the hon. Mr.

Cardinal, Minister of Human Resources and Employment, the Alberta Dental Association and College 2004 radiation health and safety program annual report January 1, 2004, to December 31, 2004, with attached Alberta Dental Association and College radiation administration program financial statements; the Alberta Veterinary Medical Association radiation protection program 2004 annual report; the College of Chiropractors of Alberta radiation health administrative organization annual report for the year ended June 30, 2005, with attached College of Chiropractors of Alberta financial statements dated June 30, 2005; the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta radiation health administrative organization annual report for the period April 1, 2004, to March 31, 2005; the University of Alberta authorized radiation health adminis- trative organization annual report 2004-2005; the University of Calgary radiation health administration organization annual report for the period April 1, 2004, to March 31, 2005, with attached University of Calgary authorized radiation health administration organization financial statements for the years ended March 31, 2004, and March 31, 2005.

On behalf of the hon. Mr.

Horner, Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, pursuant to the Agriculture Financial Services Act the Agriculture Financial Services Corporation annual report 2004-2005; pursuant to the Marketing of Agricultural Products Act the Alberta Agricultural Products Marketing Council annual report 2002-2003; pursuant to the Brand Act, the Livestock Identification and Brand Inspection Act, the Livestock and Livestock Products Acts, and the Stray Animals Act the Livestock Identifica- tion Services Ltd. manager’s report April 1, 2004, to March 31, 2005, with attached Livestock Identification Services Ltd. financial statements for the year ended March 31, 2005.

On behalf of the hon. Mr. Melchin, Minister of Energy, return to order of the Assembly MR 8, asked for by Mr. Eggen on April 11, 2005. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview on a purported point of order. Point of Order Explanation of Speaker’s Ruling Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Under Standing Order 13(2) I’m curious. As the Speaker has pointed out, I’ve not been in the House for some time, so I’m probably missing something, but Standing Order 13(2) is just an explanation.

I’m really trying to get clarity about question period and who we can direct questions to because I’m thinking of Beauchesne 405 and Erskine May 345, the 23rd edition. I think the Speaker would recognize that when I was here up to ’93, these questions did go to the chair of Public Accounts at least a couple of times. I’ve found out – I’d forgotten – that I’d actually directed one to the chairman of Public Accounts on March 26, 1991, to the chairman, who was Mr. Pashak at the time. Obviously, there have been some changes, so I’m trying to get some clarity in terms of the ruling.

Can we clarify who can accept questions, then, in the House? The Speaker: Well, hon. member, nothing has changed, so it may be something else. If the hon. member wants to quote Beauchesne, he can look at

section 411(3). It basically says that a question may not “seek information about pro ceedings in a committee which has not yet made its report to the House.” That perhaps is one. But, more importantly, I think that the hon. member would like to go to House of Commons Procedure and Practice, page 429, Questions Concern- ing Matters before Committees. Questions seeking information ab out the

schedule and agenda of committees may be directed to chairs of committees. Questions to the Ministry or a committee chair concerning the proceedings or work of a committee may not be raised. Thus, for example, a question would be disallowed if it dealt with a vote in committee, with the attendance of Members at a committee meeting, or with the content of a committee report. So nothing has changed with respect to that. I did make a ruling in this Assembly on May 1, 1997, with respect to the form and the relationship with respect to committees.

Now, out of interest today was a good example of a report coming from a committee chairman. The hon. Member for Calgary-Nose Hill presented a report to the Assembly coming out of the Standing Committee on Private Bills. That report is debatable, could have been debated. So the question was, as the member moved, that there be concurrence in the report.

No debate, but the question was called, and the question was passed. 3:00 Presumably when and if the chair of the Public Accounts Commit- tee were to bring a report of that particular committee to the Assembly and the chair would be reflective of the operation of the committee, then there would have to be concurrence asked of that. There would be a debate. But other than agenda and scheduling, no. That applies to all committee chairmen, by the way. Speaker’s Ruling Bills Containing Similar Provisions The Speaker: I do need to just update the Assembly with respect to two bills.

One, Bill 47, the Alberta Association of Former MLAs Act, is now at the Committee of the Whole stage, having passed second reading in the afternoon of November 15, 2005. Members will note that the bill is virtually identical to Bill 207, which has the same title, which has yet to come up for second reading. The authorities are clear that no two bills that are virtually the same can proceed after the House has made a decision on one.

The House has already made a decision with respect to second reading of Bill 47, so Bill 207 will not be pro ceeded with and will come off the Order Paper. head: Orders of the Day Committee of Supply [Mr. Marz in the chair] The Chair: I’d like to call the committee to order. head: Supplementary Estimates 2005-06 General Revenue Fund and Lottery Fund Advanced Education The Chair: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Might I start by saying what a wonderful team of people I have the opportunity to work with in the Department of Advanced Education.

We are joined by some of them in the gallery today, and I’d just like to briefly introduce them: the deputy minister, Bill Byrne; the assistant deputy minister,

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051790 Phil Gougeon; Marg Leathem; Gerry Waisman, who’s in charge of the student assistance area; Blake Bartlett; Solomon Quarshie. Rai Batra and Michael Shields were going to be there; I don’t see them, but that might just be my eyesight. I’d ask them to stand and receive the traditional warm welcome of the House because they do a fantastic job on behalf of Alberta students. Mr. Chairman, on April 19 we presented Advanced Education’s supply estimates for the year.

On that day I presented a new vision for our postsecondary system and the actions that we have taken as a province to achieve new vision. That day we received support to move forward with our vision, mission, goals, and strategies, and I believe we’ve achieved a significant degree of progress during this fiscal year. There’s still more that can be done always, and as the opportuni- ties present themselves, we listen to partners. We consult with stakeholders. We’ve consulted with Albertans, and when opportuni- ties come up, we take action.

As a result of opportunities having come up, we have now before the House supplementary supply in the total amount of $99 million, I believe. That $99 million is made up of a number of component parts; $8.1 million of that is a grant to Grant MacEwan College. As a government we’ve made a commitment to increase access to postsecondary education for Albertans. The commitment is expected to add 15,000 new postsecondary sp aces by 2007-08, 60,000 spaces by 2020. We’ve been encouraging and working closely with institutions to impl ement changes that will increase opportunities for students.

One of the significant outcomes of these efforts was Grant MacEwan’s application for and receipt of degree-granting status starting 2006-2007. We made a commitment to support institutions with initiatives that will increase accessibility. To that end, we have provided Grant MacEwan with a one-time grant of $8.1 million, which covers the start-up costs for two degree programs. That $8.1 million is used for curriculum development, for the hiring of additional staff members, and will go towards facilities; for example, library upgrades and facility upgrades which were required in the review of the program.

As members will know, any new program has to go through the Alberta quality council, and the Alberta quality council will indicate if there are areas that they think need to be upgraded. In this case there were, and we were pleased to provide support for that. Fifteen million dollars for the University of Calgary.

We indicated in the spring of this year – in fact, the Legislature passed in Bill 1 the provision to set up the access to the future fund and to endow it with $3 billion, and then in subsequent years $135 million would be available in each year when it’s fully funded to support or encourage individuals to contribute and the community to contribute to postsecondary education for quality, accessibility, and affordabil- ity.

Well, almost immediately upon tabling the bill, I had a phone call from the University of Calgary’s president indicating that a donor had come forward who wanted to make a pledge of $25 million to the University of Calgary engineering school to set up some very significant scholarships and to fund a chair and to fund some programs at the University of Calgary’s Faculty of Engineering, which would be of significant benefit to engineering students.

In order to assist the University of Calgary in achieving that donation, we agreed to move forward with a $15 million matching contribu- tion, actually a $25 million matching contribution, but the $15 million matches the money that’s already received. Mr. Schulich’s additional $10 million will come later and will be eligible for matching later. Although the access to the future fund was not fully funded as yet and we didn’t have the resources in place out of that fund to do this, we felt that it was a significant gift that ought not to be passed up.

So we made the commitment to assist them in being able to deal with that. Those two initiatives represent the first two items on our supple- mentary estimate list. The government contributions totalling $23.1 million will not increase total government spending, Mr. Chairman. These initiatives are funded through a reallocation of $4.6 million in voted spending as well as a reallocation of $18.5 million in uncom- mitted funds from our statutory budgets into voted spending. So we need the supplementary estimate to be voted on to allow that reallocation although it does not increase government spending.

The additional $80.5 million is for postsecondary facility infra- structure, and I’m sure the House would agree that when the opportunity is there to move ahead with the plans that we have in place for postsecondary infrastructure – and we have 21 public postsecondary institutions, all of whom are putting together their plans, know what their direction is or are looking at their direction for the future and what their infrastructure needs are going to be, and also, of course, have a number of areas in which they need to do some remediation or there needs to be some maintenance done.

So we’re very pleased that we could move ahead with $80.5 million in that area. The original budget for the 2005-2006 projects has remained in Infrastructure, where it was voted, but funding for new projects will reside with Advanced Education. Since April 1 $185.8 million has been approved for new high-priority capital projects at postsecond- ary institutions, which is part of our plan to invest the surplus. Now, that money, Mr. Chairman, of course goes into the capital fund.

But what we’re asking for is for the Legislature today in supply to give approval for 80.5 million of those dollars to be voted for expenditure in this year to increase access to postsecondary education, increase research capacity, strengthen capacity in rural locations, respond to situations where infrastructure conditions and functionality affect program quality or program delivery, and contribute to the success of Campus Alberta initiatives, cross-ministry initiatives, community partnerships, et cetera.

I won’t go through the myriad of programs that that involves, but I will indicate to the House that that involves $15 million to assist the University of Alberta to purchase and renovate the Bay building, which is a partnership that they’ve created with the city of Edmonton and Edmonton Economic Development and will help them to relocate the learning transition facility that they have on the university campus; $10 million of the commitment that was announced to Olds community learning campus; $10 million which was announced to the University of Calgary and which assists them with this year’s portion of the wo rk towards the new space for the faculty of veterinary medicine and some other remedial work that they’re doing and some planning work that they’re doing relative to four major projects that they’ve talked about publicly; $4 million to the University of Lethbridge for the Water and Environmental Science Building – the total approved funding for that building is $12 million but $4 million in spending this year – and additional projects right across the province, projects which will enhance the capacity and ability of the postsecondary learning institutions to make space available for students and faculty and advanced learning in the province.

I’d be happy to answer any questions or to deal with any of the subjects that have come up. 3:10 The Chair: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie.

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1791 Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I’m pleased and intrigued to rise today to discuss supplementary estimates for the Department of Advanced Education. We have much else to do today, so I will attempt to be brief because we have a lot of ground to cover. We’ve already been informed that there is no opportunity to extend debate on supplementary estimates whatsoever, leaving at least a couple of departments already in some jeopardy of being discussed. We are talking about an awful lot of money here.

We’re talking just $99 million for this department alone, the Ministry of Advanced Education, which at my allotted time if I take it all – and I promise I won’t – works out to about a debate of $5 million a minute. So let’s get down to business here. I have essentially five questions for the minister.

Regarding the $8.1 million in one-time funding to support implementation of the new Grant MacEwan College baccalaureate degree programs, many universities across Canada have clearly stated that they will not automatically accept a MacEwan degree as equivalent to a university degree for the purposes of postgraduate study.

Would the minister explain how this money, this $8.1 million, will ensure that MacEwan attains national recognition as a degree-granting institution so th at MacEwan grads can enjoy the same access as graduates from the U of A, the U of L, the U of C, or Athabasca to a master’s program at the institution of their choice anywhere in this nation? If this money won’t, will he explain how he intends to achieve that? A baccalaureate degree, after all, is only worth having if it’s the equal of the comparable degree from any other university.

Regarding the $15 million to match the Schulich donation to the University of Calgary, would the mi nister confirm that this is off- budget spending from the unanticipated surplus versus dollars from the access to the future fund, one of whose purposes, of course, is to match private donations?

When will the minister put the advisory council and other regulations into place regarding the access to the future fund that will transform this fund, absent those regulations, absent the existence of that council right now, from something that could be seen as being akin to the minister’s personal piggy bank into an accountable decision-making body with clear rules and regulations? Question 3. Regarding the $80.5 million for additional postsecondary facilities infrastructure, would the minister please show the House specifically how this spending links to improving access to postsecondary education in Alberta?

I’m looking for some hard numbers of spaces, of students, of FLEs here. Given that the current budget projected access growth or expanded system capacity of just over a thousand spaces, do these dollars merely contribute to that projection, or do they actually increase the projection, and if so, by how many spaces? Still on access, the Campus Calgary group of institutions indicate that they need an additional 19,700 sp aces in Calgary alone within five years, by the year 2010, in order to meet demand and support that city’s growth.

The government’s commitment to Calgary in terms of FLEs as of September of this year is 390 spaces. Is it just me, or are those two figures just a little out of whack? Finally, does the minister support the University of Calgary having to borrow $113 million in order to move ahead on its library expansion, which is one of the U of C’s access initiatives, in a timely fashion? If debt is bad for the government of Alberta, how can debt be good for a publicly funded institution of higher learning? Those are my questions, Mr. Chair. I look forward to the answers. Thank you. The Chair: The hon. minister. Mr.

Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Very quickly, on the $8.1 million for Grant MacEwan and degrees not automatically being accepted, to the best of my knowledge graduate programs don’t automatically accept anyone. They look at the credentials to determine whether the credentials are appropriate and whether they’re acceptable for the program.

The understanding that I have – and I’ve delved into this quite significantly – is that the rigour of the program that Grant MacEwan will be offering is one which will stand up to scrutiny among universities and colleges across this country for going to the next level if some body is applying for a master’s program.

The Alberta quality council is set up as an accreditation process, I think I could say the most rigorous in the country, the only accreditation process of such rigour in the country although there are others in two other provinces that are set up similarly, and other provinces across the country also have ways of doing accreditation. One of the things that Alberta is leading is a process for national accreditation standards, which are extremely important. Now, some would suggest that membership in AUCC is an accreditation process, but it’s actually not.

It’s membership in AUCC, which is an important thing for those that want to join it, but it’s not the be-all and end-all of accreditation. So it’s important for Alberta institutions for recognition nationally and internationally and for Canadian institutions for recognition internationally to have an appropriate national accreditation standard. Alberta is leading the way in helping to prepare that, and the Alberta quality council, if I may say so, is at the leading edge of accreditation both in terms of its quality and process.

So I’m very confident that graduates of Grant MacEwan’s new programs will be seen to be of a quality in nature that any university in this country will want to have their best and brightest. With respect to the Schulich gift to the University of Calgary, as I indicated in my opening remarks, the revenue is not yet coming out of the access to the future fund, so that $15 million is being proposed to be matched out of monies that are available by reallocation from within the department’s existing funds.

It’s not the way I’d choose to do it necessarily, but that was a gift which did make and will make a very, very significant difference and was one that we couldn’t allow to be passed up. The University of Calgary was very keen on making that arrangement. That’s exactly what the access to the future fund was set up to do, so we felt that it was appropriate to move forward with that particular process. In terms of the $80.5 million, all of those postsecondary infra- structure dollars are intended to improve access quality for students in this province.

Some of them are being used with respect to maintenance projects, which are necessary to keep existing facilities serviceable or to improve them; for example, $3 million to the Grande Prairie college to replace some portable trailers that they have that they’ve been using for a significant period of time which are no longer really habitable and ought to be replaced.

I can’t say that all of those dollars are going to add space, but a significant amount of those dollars are going to add space, and certainly all of those dollars are going to make sure that we have quality spaces available for students to learn in and for professors and teachers to teach in. That’s a very important part of making sure that access is there for students. With respect to Campus Calgary I think the hon. member asked: is he the only one who thinks there’s a problem with the numbers? I think he probably is. So going on to the fifth question . . . no.

I think what he intended to ask was about how we’re going to get to the number of spaces we need for Calgary students to access opportunities for education. We’re working very closely with Calgary institutions and all the institutions in the province to make

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051792 sure that there is a place for every Albertan who wants to advance their education. We’ve set some ambitious targets; we’re working very quickly towards those targets. I think the number that the member referenced in terms of the number of additional spaces being 390 is very significantly lowball- ing the number of additional spaces made available to students. I think he’s probably referencing the recent access growth fund announcement which, of course, talks about some specific additional spaces being paid for.

He s hould be aware – I hope he’s aware – that there’s been a 30 per cent increase proposed in this year’s budget and the next two years in the business plan.

That money, the increase of 6 per cent to the base grants plus additional grants that bring it up to about 10 per cent on average, is money which institu- tions are using to expand access for students in programs. 3:20 There’s a significant increase in capacity into the system, not the least of which, I might say, are probably close to 4,000 and perhaps as high as 4,500 new apprenticeship spaces, new apprentices recruited into the system, many of which, I am certain, will be studying in Calgary. So lots of additional spaces in the system, lots more work to do in that area.

I would certainly appreciate any support that the hon. member and his colleagues in caucus will give in terms of ensuring the additional resources. When we bring Budget 2006 to the floor, I’m sure he’ll support additional resources going into accessing more spaces in that area. We’re working very closely with the institutions, as I said, to make sure that the capacity is there. There is right across the system some capacity already in terms of the physical space, and we have to make sure that we make best utilization of that.

We’re moving ahead with the colleges and universities, leading a design of a single point of entry, for example, so that we can make best use of space. I think there was a second question with respect to the Schulich donation, a second question with respect to when the rules and regulations might come in with respect to the fund. I can tell the hon. member that we had an interim committee review the issue of how we can best allocate resources and deal with it. They’ve reported. We’ve now sent that report out to stakeholders for comment, or it’s in the process of going out.

It probably hasn’t left my office yet, but it will be going out in the next day. I’m anticipat- ing comments back from instituti ons and other stakeholders and interested parties with respect to that report. When we get those comments back, we will be then bringing forward a form and structure for the application of funds. There’s a basic rule with respect to application of funds which should assuage any concerns the hon. member has. In fact, I think he referenced it as the minister’s personal piggy bank, which is really quite an offensive way to talk about public money.

I can assure you that I would never treat public money in that way, and no member of this government would consider that. It’s very clear that the access to the future fund is there to encourage both the contribu- tions from the community, commitment from the community, stepping up of the community to improve access, quality, or affordability in our public education system and to provide for resources for ingenuity or, as the committee’s report calls it, a renaissance, a way of developing projects which would transfer knowledge or develop knowledge. Those two aspects of the fund, I think, are very clear.

It’s very clear that any public comment that’s been made by this minister about the fund to date about potential projects are all areas where people have stepped forward, making a commitment to a public institution in a manner which the institution has confirmed will be utilized for access, quality, or affordabi lity. Those are the basic rules and guidelines. Of course, the only payout in the context of the fund so far is the $ 15 million that we’re pr oposing here for the Schulich monies.

The last question was with respect to the $113 million for the University of Calgary’s digital library project, an excellent project which I hope will be going ahead very quickly. It will in fact free up other space around the campus for expansion of academic space and other necessary space for the University of Calgary to add access in that area. So that’s a project which is a very important project. We do need to look at how we build postsec ondary f acilities across the province, and when I say we, I mean the system, not just government.

If you take a look out over five years and perhaps as long as 10 years, there’s a need of $1.5 billion to $3 billion worth of facilities that either have been proposed or are being part of a conceptual plan or are under what I would say might be expected after institutions have studied their go-forward process. Obviously, not all of that is going to be funded in any one year, nor can we commit to funding it. We’ve moved aggressively and, I think, appropriately on the highest priority areas.

I welcome the opportunity and have taken the opportunity to sit down with institutions to talk about how they might plan their 10- year strategic horizon for providing space, making space available to students, improving quality, making academic space available so they can attract the best and brightest professors and teachers to the province. Certainly, we’ll work with them in any appropriate format to see how we can put space in place as quickly as is appropriate to move forward and make that space accessible.

So I’m not going to shut the door on a proposal that’s legitimately made by a legitimate board-governed institution with respect to how they might legiti- mately finance postsecondary projects to get them going faster than we might be able to put the resources out. The Chair: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the record the minister knows that I am eager to work co-operatively and collaboratively in making the system better.

He and I and everybody else in this House and in this province have a direct stake in excellence in postsecondary education access, affordability, quality, and sustainability. I think we’re all on the same page of the program as far as that’s concerned. He’s asked for my support, and of course although I cannot ever offer unconditional support, the minister should know – and I think he does know – that he can count on a supportive attitude from me as long as I get straight answers to my questions.

One of the areas in which, of course, I’m looking for straight answers is in hard numbers having to do with how many spaces we are creating. There have been many promises made around that by the minister in terms of 15,000 spaces across the province over three years, 30,000 over six, and 60,000 by the year 2020. By comparison to that, we have a very hard target from Campus Calgary of 19,700 spaces in the city of Calgary alone by 2010.

Those are goals in both cases, and what I’m interested in in terms of access are hard numbers as measures of performance in terms of how many spaces have been created, are being created, and how they relate to the money spent here. Thank you. The Chair: The hon. minister. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m interested in those very same numbers, but I think the hon. member has to understand and appreciate that the campus of the 21st century is not the campus

November 22, 2005 Alberta Hansard 1793 of the 19th century. We’re not just talking about adding traditional space to traditional universities and c ounting individual students coming in for the traditional semester. What we have in Alberta today, and very appropriately so, is a wide range of student opportu- nities, lear ning opportunities for Albertans. Some of those Alber- tans, even Calgarian Albertans, are going to be attending at Athabasca University electronically and online. Some of them are going to be attending . . . Mr. Taylor: They can still be counted? Mr.

Hancock: Yes, they can still be counted, and we need to be able to develop counting mechanisms to do that and to make sure that we’re doing it. The important question is: does every Albertan that wants to have access to a learning opportunity get that access to learning opportu- nity? That’s the common outcome that we’re trying to do. I agree with the hon. member that there need to be measurables, and we’re going to be developing those measurables. We’re going to be finding the ways to best account for the way in which we increase capacity.

But it’s not quite as simple, and that’s the only point I was making in saying: well, we need 19,700 sp aces. I appreciate that institutions look forward and strategize and have a strategic plan to achieve numbers like that. I certainly appreciate the work that went into that. Unfortunately, it’s not quite as simple as that. Again, if the hon. member has any advice or ideas with respect to this area, I’d be open to them. I can indicate to the hon. member that we are developing formats to be able to properly assess progress along the process to achieve those 60,000 spaces that we’re talking about.

As long as he recognizes that those sp aces come in many different ways and for many different students and many different Albertans who want to learn and move. Some of them will be moving to literacy, others will be moving to a PhD, and that’s a very complex system. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take this opportunity to join debate on supplementary estimates for 2005-2006 on the Department of Advanced Education.

I thank the minister for being quite open to receiving questions and broader comments with respect to the future of the system and how we can get where we want to get over the next 15 to 20 years. I was listening to the minister with some care when he talked about the expansion of the capacity of the system to have more spaces in it, the accessibility issue. That certainly has been one of the key issues that everyone in this province, including the minister and our sides of the House, has been talking about. 3:30 I just want to give some figures here that will provide the context for the debate. Mr.

Chairman, in 1994-95, about 10 years ago, there were 106,000 full-load equivalents at universities, colleges, technical institutes, private universities, et cetera, and at the Banff Centre. There were about 106,000 full-load equivalents available in the system. In ’99-2000 – five, six years later – the number went up to 119,574 full-load equivalents. So over five years the number of FLEs in Alberta went up by 13,000. Between ’92-93, with 105,000 FLEs, and 2004-05, with about 139,000, the number of Alberta full- load equivalents increased by 34 per cent.

The government is proposing an increase of 60,000 sp aces altogether over the next 15 years. My question to the minister is: if the rate of increase and growth over the last 10 years is any guide to the rate of growth in future years and, in fact, to expedite the rate of growth given that we know that the participation rate in the postsecondary system in Alberta is one of the lowest in the country, how is that commitment that he has made to 60,000 spaces over the next 15 years going to lead to addressing effectively the problem of accessibility for Albertans over the next 10 or 15 years?

That’s one key question I think we should never take our eyes off. It’s an important issue. When we are debating these issues in the House, I think we should pay attention to the numbers and to the commitments that the government makes in relation to the informa- tion that I have on the rates of increase and the demand for spaces in the system. Similarly, Mr. Chairman, another question that I have.

I was hoping that the minister in the supplementary estimates request would pay some attention to addressing the ongoing concerns of the postsecondary students of this province with respect to convincing this government or having this government act on their concerns with the increase in tuition fees. The government has over the last year made a commitment for the coming year to continue with the so-called tuition rebate program, about which students express a great deal of concern.

They would have liked to see, at least, a firm commitment on the part of this minister and this government that it will not remain a rebate but will become a freeze and that, in fact, the government will present a

schedule of reduction of the fees, rolling the fees back if we are to induce students, who are presently qualified to take advantage of postsecondary education but don’t, to seek admission and participa- tion in the system. If we keep the tuition fee issue the way it is now, that the students continue to worry about the annual increase in tuition fees forever, we will not be able to get the students who are presently staying out of the system to come into the system and become participants in it.

To the minister: why has he not taken this opportunity in bringing forward the supplementary estimates to ask for more money, to at least say that the postsecondary institutions will r eceive from this government an increase in funding added to their base budgets or whatever so that they don’t have to continue to assume that they’ll be called upon to increase or they’ll be allowed to increase tuition fees two years down the line when this rebate is gone?

I think there’s a need for the government to make a clear statement to institutions that the base funding will be adjusted in a way that postsecondary institutions can assure their students that there will be no further increase in tuition fees and, on top of that, that there will in fact be systematic, properly scheduled rollbacks in those tuition fees. The government is proposing in the next budget, if I may use a reference to that, to move forward with $1.4 billion to $1.6 billion in corporate tax reduction.

If the government reduces the tuition fees by 50 per cent starting next year, it will cost the Alberta Treasury only about $250 million. Imagine this. This government talks about postsecondary education being its highest priority. It talks a great deal about that.

The minister talks about this and certainly conveys the message to students and faculties and manage- ment of our postsecondary institutions that he means business on this issue, yet the words which the minister uses and the government uses to put priority on postsecondary education are not followed up in action by making a commitment of, say, reducing tuition fees by 50 per cent, which will cost no more than $250 m illion a year, and proceeding with a permanent loss on an annual basis of $1.6 billion to the public finances of this province if it proceeds with its reduc- tion of corporate taxes come next year.

I would have hoped that the mini ster would have indicated his intention by way of the supplementary estimates that he’s going to

Alberta Hansard November 22, 20051794 take concrete action that will assure students that the government has been listening, that it is planning to take action that will deliver goods to students that will deliver a reduction in their tuition fee loads as well as other costs. Having said that, let me ask the minister another question. I notice that there is a $4.6 million reduction in the student loan relief- benefit program. This money is going to be switched over to some other expenditure as part of the supplementary estimates presented here today. I think this warrants some explanation.

What informa- tion is the minister able to give to the House with respect to why it is that the student loan relief-benefit will in fact go down by $4.6 million this year when we know that more and more students are in need of that relief, more and more students are feeling the pressures of unbearable costs of going to a college or a university or an institute and staying there? Many of them are of course dropping out without completing or, rather than four years, taking six years, perhaps, or seven years to complete.

I think we need some explanation as to why this money is being saved and how come this is happening when, in fact, we do know that the need for relief is ever-increasing and is growing every year because of the increasing burden of the costs of going to sc hool in this province, whether you go to university or college or whatever. The third issue is the minister’s response to the question of the quality of four-year degrees being granted at our colleges. Grant MacEwan College, certainly, has been given the go-ahead to do that in certain areas. Mount Royal may be another institution which is proceeding with that.

There may be other colleges that are in a similar situation. Now, it is true that we have the Alberta quality council, which must vet all the applications that come forward from colleges requesting the powers to grant these degrees, so there’s some quality assurance in the work that the Alberta quality council does. But let me share an example with the minister on this issue because the Alberta quality council is a mechanism which tries to provide a certain standard, a certain benchmark, a kind of standard that must be met before colleges can begin to offer degrees.

A niece of mine, going to one of the well-known two-year arts colleges in Vancouver, decided after finishing a two-year program at one of those colleges in Vancouver to go to Toronto and seek completion of the following two years at Ryerson University in Toronto. She did get the admission, but she has to do all four years.

The two years’ work that she had done on the assumption that those two years would be treated as the first two years of a degree program, regardless of where in this country she transfers to complete that program, did not prove to be true. 3:40 While the minister is saying that there’s no guarantee provided by any university that a four-year degree, whether earned at a university or college, means guaranteed admission to a graduate program, I think the problem is more serious than that.

It is a question of whether or not that four-year degree is considered equivalent to a four-year degree earned at a university, not merely a question of the next step, you know, in the student’s pursuit of their program at the graduate level. Employers make those distinctions. Those data are available.

That is why the AUCC, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, is an institution that many colleges who want to proceed with granting four-year degrees want to look up to and try to meet the expectations of and the standards set by this national council on the kinds of facilities and faculty qualifications and other infrastruc- ture that must be in place in order for the institution that’s aspiring to offer a four-year degree to be able to produce graduates whose degrees will be respected at other places, not only within the province but across Canada. So there is a problem there, Mr.

Minister, and I want you to address that. Related to the $8.1 million going to Grant MacEwan College, it’s a one-time cost, as the estimates document states. Now, some of this $8.1 million is supposed to be spent on recruiting faculty. I’m having difficulty understanding how a one-time grant, which will include hiring additional faculty to provide the coursework and supervision and lab work and all of that for a four-year program, can be sustained by a college. Is it going to become part of the line budget and then be f unded by the ministry? How is it going to happen?

I have some concern about asking a college to go ahead because the ministry is making a one-time grant to hire faculty. What happens the following year to the faculty? How are they retained on the college payroll if this is a one-time grant and a one- time only grant? So that’s another question that I have for the minister, that I hope he will try to address.

The fourth question: “$80,500,000 for additional post-secondary facilities infrastructure.” Now, the minister knows and it’s public information that postsecondary institutions certainly have huge deferred maintenance costs and deficits that run into hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. For the University of Alberta alone, I understand that those estimates – and you would have, perhaps, more precise figures than I – run to about $250 million in deferred maintenance costs. We have a large postsecond- ary system.

Of this $80.5 million, what percentage or how many millions of dollars from this sum are going toward deferred mainte- nance and what portion is going toward installation of new facilities or setting up new labs or setting up new classrooms? I think that part of your observat

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20051122
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L26 S1 20051122 1330 01 han.pdf
Language	en
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