British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, May 10, 2011

H0510pm-06

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Tuesday, May 10, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 21, Number 6

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS t uesday, May 10, 2011 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 6835 t ributes ..................................................................................................................................................................................... 6835 Serpentine enhancement Society D. h ayer introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 6835 Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 6836 h ealth care auxiliaries V . huntington l ions Gate h ospital f oundation fundraising for mental health and addictions facility J.

Mcintyre Protection of water resources D. r outley r ichmond Y acht c lub r . h oward Volunteer firefighters and first responders b. Simpson e xperience the f raser project M. Dalton oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 6838 f unding for criminal justice system a. Di x h on. b. Penner l. k rog J. h organ c ontract process for casino project on lands adjacent to b.c. Place S. c handra h erbert h on. P . bell S.

Simpson first n ations consultation on enbridge oil pipeline proposal S. f raser h on. r . c oleman Government preparedness for oil spills r . flemin g h on. t . l ake impact of harmonized sales tax elimination on restaurant industry b. r alston h on. k. f alcon Orders of the Day c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 6843 e stimates: Ministry of Social Development (continued) J. kwan h on. h. b loy S. Simpson V . huntington M. e lmore

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 6857 e stimates: Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General (continued) k. c orrigan h on. S. bond r . a ustin c. t revena J. brar h. b ains n. Simon s

6835 tueSD a Y , MaY 10, 2011 The h ouse met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members L. Reid: i have two introductions today. i am pleased to introduce to this h ouse h annah Wylie, who recently graduated in political science from c arleton u niversity and served as a chief page in the Senate. That would be fascinating. h annah will be staying in Victoria this sum- mer and is interested in applying for a job that could utilize her political skills.

Would the h ouse please give her a warm british c olumbia welcome. i also have the pleasure this afternoon of introducing a group of Western Washington u niversity students who are visiting from bellingham. They're here today to learn about our c anadian system of governance as part of their fourth-year political science course entitled the politics of c anada. a s the university celebrates its 40th anniversary of the c enter for c anadian-a merican Studies, it is fitting that these students take a day to learn firsthand in british c olumbia how parliamentary demo- cracy works.

They are accompanied by their professor, Dr. butch k amena, and i'd ask the h ouse to please make them feel warm in british c olumbia. C. James: i have four guests in the gallery today — well, five guests, one very small guest. Mr. Speaker: n o grandchildren? C. James: n o grandchildren to introduce today from me. We have two guests visiting us from Japan: Mr. Shigemi h arada, who is a local village councillor in Japan; and his wife, Michiko h arada. They're here in Victoria to visit their daughter Mami and their son-in-law James h arada-Down and their brand-new grandson, biko, who was born on a pril 20.

So would the h ouse please make them very welcome. [1335] L. Popham: i have a gaggle of students up in the gal - lery, and they are from South island Distance e ducation School, otherwise known as S iDeS. Please make them welcome. Hon. D.

McRae: i have a cornucopia of guests from the c omox Valley. i had the good people from Probus come to the l egislature today, and i was able to give them a tour. i'd like to say welcome to h eather Philip, who or- ganized the event; Sharon h ysert; Dr. betty Donaldson; e thel h omberg, l aura and n elson c heyne; David and beverley Pendlebury; c ynthia c onway, who came here from england; e lsie Marks; r on and Pat r ichardson; bill and bev l ambeth. i'd like to have the h ouse wish them welcome. P . Pimm: Well, i only have one guest to introduce to - day, but it's the most important guest in my life.

Joining us today in the gallery is my wife, Jody. i'd like the h ouse to help me make her welcome. Tributes SerP entine enhanceMent Societ Y D. Hayer: The t ynehead h atchery, which is oper - ated by the Serpentine enhancement Society, held its open house on May 8. it was attended by hundreds and hundreds of community members of all ages, from chil- dren to students to seniors to many of our pioneers, on Mother's Day. The society was helping the community to release thousands of salmon into Surrey's Serpentine r iver.

Some of the volunteers who helped with that included Glenn Wright, e bb budgell, Julie budgell, bruce e aston, c hris h amming, Dave Woods, c arol Wright, f rank Marshalock, l aura h agar-Gaube, c athryn kyle and founder emil Quinn, who started the foundation with his own money. i would ask all in the h ouse to recognize all these great volunteers, who do a great job for our community. Introductions by Members J. Kwan: i am very delighted to introduce two very important people from my community. i rarely get guests, so i get very excited when they come to visit in this l egislature.

We have t erry h unter and his son Montana h unter visiting us today. t erry, of course, people will know. h e's one of the key movers and shakers in the artistic community. h e is very much involved with the Vancouver Moving Theatre and of course puts on the best festival in the city of Vancouver, called the h eart of the city f estival, in the Downtown eastside. Would the h ouse please make them feel very welcome. Hon. S. Cadieux: i had the honour of having lunch today with the Minister of finance and two constitu - ents from his riding of Surrey-c loverdale.

Wayne and a rlene Groome are here this afternoon, and i'd like to make them welcome. S. Chandra Herbert: i am very excited to welcome students from k ing George Secondary School from

british c olumbia Debates6836 t uesday, May 10, 2011 Vancouver–West end, their teacher Sherry Preston and her mother, Melanie Preston. i had the great privilege of working with both of them in a circus — not the l egislature but a circus. Would everybody please make them feel very wel - come. They will be joining us shortly. S. Simpson: Joining in with my colleague the member for Vancouver–West end, i particularly want to extend a welcome to my constituency assistant r achel Garrick, whose son is a student at k ing George and is here with us. h ope you'll make Michael welcome.

Statements (Standing Order 25B) health care auXiliarieS V . Huntington: May 10 is proclaimed h ealth c are a uxiliary Day. it is the day we recognize the ongoing contributions made by the british c olumbia a ssociation of h ealth c are a uxiliaries to improving the quality of health care available to all british c olumbians. e very year b.c. hospital auxiliaries dedicate thou - sands of hours to upholding the time-honoured tradition of service to patients and families.

Without compensa - tion or complaint, auxiliary members work tirelessly to benefit our hospitals and communities. a uxiliary mem- bers provide many valuable hospital services, including the roving library, information and way-finding pro - grams, lifeline services and music therapy.

They also make major financial contributions to our hospitals, regularly providing million-dollar pledges for program and hospital improvements. f unding these contributions is not easy, and auxiliary members are found running thrift stores, gift shops, lotto booths, cafés and pledge drives across the province. [1340] k eeping our hospitals equipped is an ongoing task, and our auxiliaries give precious time and money, pro - viding the comfort items and medical equipment needed by patients and their families.

These dedicated efforts are warmly received by families, patients, staff and phys- icians alike. on a personal note, i am pleased to announce today that my local Delta h ospital a uxiliary Society is un - veiling their latest contribution to Delta h ospital — a $700,000 digital mammography unit.

This comes on the heels of a recent $1 million contribution toward the re - development of the emergency room. on top of this and so much more, the Delta a uxiliary provides eight $1,000 bursaries each year to local medical students. on this h ealth c are a uxiliary Day, join me in thank- ing our valued partners by recognizing them and honouring them for their timeless commitment to health care in b.c. lion S Gate ho SPital foun Dation funD raiS in G for Mental health anD aDD ictionS facilit Y J.

McIntyre: on the heels of Mental h ealth Week, i rise to pay tribute to President Judy Savage and the l ions Gate h ospital f oundation as they officially em - bark on their largest-ever capital campaign to raise $25.5 million towards a new mental health and addic - tions facility that will be adjacent to l ions Gate h ospital and which will also include dedicated teaching space for the ubc f aculty of Medicine and, at long last, a nine- bay permanent home for the b.c. a mbulance Service in n orth Vancouver. a fter five years of planning, the new four-storey, 26- bed facility will replace an antiquated, dilapidated 1929 structure with state-of-the-art integrated treatment, providing both in- and out-patient care. n ow that the foundation has completed its campaign, ably led by Joanne h oussian, for the much-needed and beautifully designed n orth Shore h ospice, this volunteer organ - ization is committed to raising additional funds from our generous community under campaign chair c lark Quintin's leadership.

The centre will serve the one in four n orth Shore residents that will be affected by some form of mental illness or addictions or both, many of whom typically do not seek care or are afraid to ask for help.

Through the l ions Gate h ospital f oundation's dedi- cated efforts, we will soon have the opportunity to reduce the stigma associated with mental health and addictions and begin to better care for our families, our friends and colleagues, with compassion, in a safe, bright, caring environment. c onstruction on the new centre is expected to be underway in summer 2011, with completion scheduled for the end of 2013. i'm hoping that all members of the h ouse will join me in thanking Judy and the board of l ions Gate h ospital f oundation for their ongoing com- mitment to enhancing the quality of life and inspiring hope for all of us on the n orth Shore.

Protection of Water re Source S D. Routley: a s we face the unavoidable and immedi - ate changes that climate change brings to our lives, water is an obvious focus.

We think of sea level increases. in fact, yesterday, May 9, the Ministry of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations released technical re - ports to update b.c.'s guidelines for sea dike design and management of coastal flood hazard land use to include consideration of sea level rise. h owever, we less frequently think of the implications for our groundwater resource. in c anada we possess 7 percent of the world's total renewable fresh water supply. in b.c. groundwater provides 23 percent of our popula - tion with their drinking water. Groundwater provides 9

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6837 percent of the total water consumption in our province. in b.c. groundwater consumption accounts for 25 per - cent of the total groundwater use in c anada. in the mid–Vancouver island region we occupy and draw from very low producing aquifers, with low per - meability and low porosity.

That means this type of rock has a very limited ability to store and produce water and that when water is removed from this type of aquifer, it can take a long time to recharge or refill. a s we see reduced flows in our rivers and reduced storage in our lakes and snowpacks, partially caused by the effects of climate change, we also see increased failures of wells and water shortages. o ur groundwater faces many threats — on the demand side or use side, in - creased residential development and industrial use; on the supply side, reduced flows, snowpacks and the ef - fects of climate change. [1345] it is our responsibility, as citizens and at all levels of government, to make sound and responsible decisions about our water, reduce our consumption and create sustainable policies that recognize the increased threats facing this most essential of natural resources. richM onD Y acht club R.

Howard: Many groups make my city of r ichmond such a wonderful place to live. one of them is the r ichmond Y acht c lub, which just held its annual sail- past ceremony on Saturday. Growing up in r ichmond, you're certainly taught to respect the river and the ocean, and for many r ichmond residents, boating is a passion, making the r ichmond Y acht c lub an important part of many people's lives. The yacht club was chartered in 1963 and in 1975 moved to its current location on the Middle a rm of the f raser r iver. The yacht club has always been family-oriented.

My family are also members. h i to Mom and Mel. i am pleased to say it is also community-oriented, holding events for the greater community to enjoy and making contributions to important local charities. in fact, another major event they hold every December is the Parade of l ights, where large crowds brave the weather and gather along the river to watch the festive parade. The kids get to witness Santa's arrival, and dona- tions are collected for the r ichmond f ood bank.

The Parade of l ights, Santa's breakfast, the annual sail-past, the dragon boat association, a breast in a boat, power squadron and radio licensing courses and the year-round dedication to encourage and develop pas - sion for boating make this organization an important r ichmond institution.

Thank you to the hard-working community-minded board, better known as the bridge — c ommodore r obert Poburko and bridge members Mary e llen bullock, brian Morris, Dick r eitenbach, Garrett Weir, Steve t riance and Greg h alsey-brandt. i invite all mem- bers of the h ouse to congratulate the r ichmond Y acht c lub on another successful year. Volunteer firefi GhterS an D fir St re SPon Der S B. Simpson: every year the Professional f ire f ighters a ssociation conducts its information lobby with M la s.

That always reminds me how much of our province is protected and served by volunteer firefighters and first responders. These volunteers lead busy professional and work lives, have family and other community obligations, and yet they make the time to train, practise and provide critical services to many communities in our province. The entire riding of c ariboo n orth is served by these volunteers, and i enjoy every opportunity i'm given to at- tend their annual recognition dinners and let them know directly how much their extra efforts and community- mindedness are appreciated.

Volunteer firefighters and first responders literally provide neighbour-to-neighbour protection, care and comfort on shoestring budgets out of the goodness of their hearts and their deep sense of commitment to their community. They also have to be consummate fundraisers to en - sure they have the equipment and training they need to provide the professional level of service people have come to expect from them and that they want to con - tinue to provide.

This year my office worked with the Ministry of h ealth and the Solicitor General's office to ensure that first responders would not have to add to their fund - raising burden the cost to replace consumable first-aid supplies when they attended the scene of an accident or emergency health call. The first responders in c ariboo n orth appreci - ate the government's decision to continue to have b.c. a mbulance replenish their supplies on an as-used basis. it means their fundraising efforts can continue to go to maintaining or enhancing the level of service they pro - vide to their communities.

Volunteer firefighters and first responders are a critical part of b.c.'s public safety infrastructure, so government has a special obligation to ensure ongoing dialogue and consultation with them before legislative or regulatory changes are made that could impact their ability to pro - vide professional services. i ask the members of this h ouse to join me in rec - ognizing the valuable contribution volunteer firefighters and first responders make to british c olumbia. eXP erience the fra Ser Pro Ject M. Dalton: i am pleased to inform my colleagues of a great project that represents a true collaboration

british c olumbia Debates6838 t uesday, May 10, 2011 between the province of british c olumbia, the f raser Valley regional district, Metro Vancouver and a number of other key partners, including the federal government and local first n ations.

The e xperience the f raser project or etf has been developed to celebrate heritage and enhance recreation outdoor opportunities along one of british c olumbia's most picturesque natural assets, the f raser r iver. etf will showcase the lower f raser r iver corridor and promote the region as one of the world's great river des- tinations. it will connect both residents and visitors to the many waterfront communities and natural features along the river. [1350] With over 160 kilometres of recreation and cultural heritage amenities stretching from h ope to the Salish Sea, e xperience the f raser will join existing trails and infrastructure, including the t rans c anada t rail, with exciting new opportunities that will enhance active re - creation, cultural appreciation and tourism. e xperience the f raser has gathered a great deal of momentum in recent months, and the first of many on-the-ground demonstration projects has been well received by the public. one such project involves a new t rans c anada t rail segment in l angley that will help connect the Golden e ars bridge to f ort l angley.

Y et another project, the b.c. Spirit Squares initiative in Mission, has created a new waterfront gathering place and trail segments that provides a spectacular river view of Mount baker. etf will continue to add trails and features along the f raser r iver, with strong support of project partners. i encourage my colleagues here today and all british c olumbians to get out one day soon to experience the f raser. Oral Questions fun Din G for cri Minal Ju Stice SYSte M A.

Dix: My question is to the a ttorney General. t wo weeks ago in Victoria two courtrooms were closed. l ast week in k elowna two more were closed. eight families seeking justice were denied because, in that case, there were no sheriffs. in k elowna, Judge c artwright didn't pull any punches. She said: "i t's ridiculous to run court - rooms this way." Does the a ttorney General agree with Judge c artwright? Hon. B.

Penner: We do take safety and security in the courthouses seriously, and that's always the paramount concern. o bviously, the judge didn't feel comfortable proceeding in the absence of a sheriff. on any given day there could be fluctuations in the caseload, or there can be increased rates of absenteeism with the sheriff ser - vices. but overall, we work hard to provide the sheriffs that are required for the courts to operate in a safe man- ner, and that remains our number one priority. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a supplemental. A.

Dix: Well, everybody in the justice system knows there are not enough sheriffs and there are not enough judges. e verybody knows that. The government has failed and left us behind in this regard, and there are real costs to families as a result, and to all of us, when justice is denied. There are 2,000 cases pending in the criminal justice system. So i wanted to ask the a ttorney General whether he recognizes those costs involved in his inaction in dealing with those problems and what steps he is going to take to address the situation. Hon. B.

Penner: a nother day and another commit - ment from the opposition to spend yet more tax dollars at the very same time they're leading a campaign that will take $3 billion away from government revenues. it's another clear example of nDP hypocrisy. a s the l eader of the o pposition is leading a campaign that will deprive government revenues of $3 billion in tax revenue over the next couple of years, every single day he turns around in here, in this chamber, and says to government: "Just spend more tax money." it's just like the 1990s — tax, borrow and spend.

That's the legacy of the nDP under the former chief of staff to the Premier and now l eader of the o pposition. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a fur- ther supplemental. A. Dix: i know that the a ttorney General was cam - paigning. i know he's all non-partisan as a ttorney General now, but he was campaigning at the time. h e and his colleagues said the deficit at that time, the deficit at the time of the last election, was $495 million.

They missed — oops — by $3 billion. n ow they're trying to justify misleading people on the hS t on the basis of their incompetence in man - aging public finances. but the people are paying the price here for what the president of the crown c ounsel a ssociation calls "a systematic stripping of the criminal justice system." That's what the president of the crown c ounsel a ssociation calls it. [1355] Does he not think there's a price when we lose crim - inal cases in the courts? Does he not think there's a price when justice is denied?

Will he not recognize that there's a crisis in the courts and do something about it? Hon. B. Penner: Staff in the Ministry of a ttorney General work hard every day to deliver top value for every dollar spent, something the nDP doesn't appreci - ate, but it's true. e very single day in this h ouse i listen

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6839 to individual members on the other side say: "Just spend more money." They never answer the question: "Where is that money supposed to come from?" r ecord spending in the Ministry of h ealth. r ecord spending in the Ministry of e ducation. increased fund- ing for a dvanced e ducation. e very single day, though, the nDP's answer is: "Just spend more." Meanwhile they're campaigning against the tax measure that's bringing more revenue to the province and is stronger for the economy. That is more nDP math, and it just doesn't add up. L.

Krog: i think i heard the a ttorney General just tell this h ouse that he doesn't think justice is worth a dollar or two in british c olumbia. i think i heard him say that justice doesn't matter in british c olumbia. in 2010…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member, just take your seat for a second. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Member. L. Krog: in September 2010 his predecessor received a report, Justice Delayed. it condemned the lack of judi - cial resources. The report was posted on the Provincial c ourt website in December — 17 judges short across the province.

The a ttorney General and his predecessor have had nearly eight months to remedy the situation. What is he going to do? is he going to announce the appointment of the needed Provincial c ourt judges today — yes or no? Hon. B. Penner: a s i indicated to the member when he last asked me this question about two weeks ago, we have appointed nine new judges in the past year. h owever, it does not come without a cost, which is something the nDP opposition always wants to overlook.

The cost of hiring and equipping a judge is not just the average salary of $231,000 plus pension benefits and other benefits. in order to equip the judges properly so that they can function, the total cost to the Ministry of a ttorney General is about $1.4 million to $1.6 million for each additional judicial appointment. f rom which ministry, sir, would you suggest we take the money so that we can hire more judges? a re you sug- gesting money from the Ministry of h ealth, Ministry of e ducation, Ministry of a dvanced e ducation?

We have a budget that we're working to live within. l ike all british c olumbians, we have a budget we're try- ing to stay within. it really rings hollow for members of the opposition who, every single day, say that record spending in health and education is not enough. if those budgets keep going up, it obviously puts pressure on the rest of government, unless their answer is just to borrow and tax some more. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. L.

Krog: Well, that's a remarkable response from the a ttorney General in a government that was happily writ- ing off $6 million in legal fees for l iberal insiders. Y ou know, hon. Speaker, the government has been proud of its record on prosecuting drunk drivers.

Well, i want to tell this h ouse that in a brown envelope i got four cases out of my city alone, n anaimo — drunk-driving cases dismissed because of delays in our judicial system. if the a ttorney General thinks that's the appropriate way to handle justice in british c olumbia, perhaps he should step aside and let someone into his position who can go to cabinet and get the resources that are necessary. [1400] it is absolutely unprecedented in this province to hear judges speaking out in case after case after case, talking about the lack of resources to prosecute the crimin - als, to let families have their cases heard, to let people with small claims issues be dealt with in the courts appropriately.

This a ttorney General had better step up to the plate and solve this problem. What's he going to do today? is he going to fill the vacancies — again, yes or no? Hon. B. Penner: We've heard, yet again, the nDP's answer to everything is to just spend more money, and taxes and deficit be damned. Well, there is an alternative approach. it's to live within a budget and look for other ways to address delays in the justice system, other than just always spending more money that comes at the ex - pense of taxpayers.

The member raises impaired driving. u nder our gov- ernment, we've increased the penalties for driving .05 or more. in the first few months, several thousand cases fewer have been approved to go to court because we're dealing with them quicker on the roadside. The proof is in the pudding. n ot only are we saving thousands of cases from clogging the courts; we're sav - ing lives with a 40 percent decrease in fatalities in the first three months that the policy was in place. That doesn't cost taxpayers any more money. J.

Horgan: Shortage of prosecutors, shortage of judges, shortage of sheriffs. n o shortage of public money to pay off convicted criminals' legal bills. Will the minister stand in his place as the minister responsible for the judicial system in british c olumbia and give the people of british c olumbia some answers about how he's going to fix it, not yesterday but today and tomorrow?

british c olumbia Debates6840 t uesday, May 10, 2011 Hon. B. Penner: a s i was already elaborating in my last answer, we have already…. o ur government has introduced new legislation to add additional penalties for over .05, and that's having an effect. Within the first few months more than 2,500 fewer cases ended up go - ing into the court system because they were being dealt with at the roadside, and that will save time and money in the justice system. but most importantly, it's saving lives. e arly evidence indicates a 40 percent decrease in fatality rates due to drinking and driving. Mr.

Speaker, the member is correct. There is more that can be done. it still strikes me as unacceptable that the average criminal case has seven pretrial appearances before the trial ever starts. So right here in Victoria we have launched a pilot program to try and work with all members of the justice system — the lawyers, the pros - ecutors and the judiciary — to reduce the number of pretrial appearances so cases can happen sooner and we spend less money. contract ProceSS for ca Sino Pro Ject on lan DS a DJacent to b .c . Place S.

Chandra Herbert: Questions have been raised about the b.c. l iberals' decision to push for a mega- casino next to b.c. Place. l ast week in estimates the minister responsible for Pavc o told this h ouse that before the request for expressions of interest and the re- quest for proposals were issued for the site next to b.c. Place…. h e said: "There was no discussion of specific - ally what might go on that site, whether it be a casino or something of another nature." h e continued: "once the request for expression of interest and then the request for proposals took place, Paragon became the likely proponent.

The casino be - came a feature of it, and at that point in time, then, Pavc o would at times have talked about the casino development." That request for proposals was issued in a pril 2009 and awarded to Paragon weeks later. h owever, a pack - age released through a freedom-of-information request includes an a ugust 2008 issues document from the Pavc o-sponsored city of Vancouver committee in charge of planning for the area, which directly contra - dicts the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Question, Member. S.

Chandra Herbert: it refers to a Pavco proposal for the site that "allows for a very large floor plate filling in al- most the entire infill site to the west of the stadium. This is to allow for the very large floor plate of the casino." Mr. Speaker: Pose the question, please, Member. S. Chandra Herbert: Why was b.c. Pavc o working with Paragon on the casino plan at least nine months be- fore the expression of interest and the rfP were issued? [1405] Hon. P .

Bell: There's nothing inconsistent between the information that was released to the opposition as a result of a freedom-of-information request and my comments last week. in fact, what i said was that there were a variety of options discussed during the early years of Pavc o's engagement with the city. There was not a specific focus on a casino or any other specific form of development but that all were under consideration. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Chandra Herbert: The documents are clear. The Pavc o-sponsored committee was planning for a casino on the site next to b.c. Place in a ugust 2008.

The rfP for that site was only put out in a pril 2009. The minis - ter's statements do not stand up. We said the deal with Paragon and the b.c. l iberal insider t . r ichard t urner stunk at the time, and it stinks even worse today. Why did the b.c. l iberals go ahead with a sham rfP process when the documents show that Pavc o was already planning to place a large casino right next to b.c. Place Stadium? Hon. P . Bell: This site was always conceived of by both the city of Vancouver as well as the province of british c olumbia as an entertainment district. That's exactly what will be developed on the site.

The city re - cently approved the move of the e dgewater c asino, if that is deemed to be suitable by the proponent, to this particular site. We want to create a vibrant entertain - ment district, and that's exactly what we're going to do. S. Simpson: in March 2009, at exactly the same time the request for expressions of interest was being issued, the Vancouver assistant director of planning said in an e-mail: "Pavc o indicated to us last year that they were talking to the casino folks about locating on the stadium site.

They were planning the base of their western build- ing to accommodate the large floor plate." c learly, the city knew that Pavco and the casino were talking well before the expressions of interest ever came out. h ow come the minister didn't know that, and if he did know it, will he withdraw the comments he made in this h ouse last week through estimates? Hon. P . Bell: Mr. Speaker, you know, one would think that any crown corporation that is designated as de - veloping an entertainment district would be considering all of its options.

The fact that Pavc o would consider that does not in any way reflect that they were not con - sidering many other options for the site and making

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6841 sure that we were properly prepared going into both the request-for-proposal process as well as the discussions with the city of Vancouver. What is important, i think, is the fact that the city of Vancouver — the mayor, Mayor r obertson — and i are communicating on a regular basis to determine what the right proposal will be for this site. i'm confident that we're going to have a proposal that will meet the needs of both the city of Vancouver and the province of british c olumbia. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Simpson: h on.

Speaker, you would think that the b.c. l iberal government would have learned. We've seen this movie before. The b.c. r ail scandal was all about fixing the deal for cn under an illusion of an open pro - cess. n ow we see a situation where a deal gets fixed for the casino. it's the same process. Y ou'd think the govern- ment would have learned its lesson. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. S. Simpson: Does the minister agree that this process is flawed, and will he investigate? Hon. P . Bell: i know that business skills on the opposite side of the h ouse are somewhat limited.

Y ou would think that it would be appropriate, when you have some of the most valuable property in the city of V ancouver in the province of british c olumbia, to pursue all of the options. in fact, from what i can tell, the only business skills that the opposition members have are when they show up to their party offices with brown paper bags full of $10 bills. [1410] fir St nation S con Sultation on enbriDGe oil PiPeline Pro PoSal S. Fraser: Premier c lark appointed a new Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation. My question is to that minister.

More than 80 first n ations in the north and along the coast are saying no to the enbridge tar sands pipeline and the associated supertanker traffic on the coast. Will the minister be respecting that resound - ing decision? Hon. R.

Coleman: i know the members opposite opposed any investment in northwestern or northeast - ern british c olumbia — whether we would invest in any jobs that would create thousands of jobs and bil - lions of dollars in revenue to help pay for health care and education. t o the members opposite: as these particular pro - cesses come through, they will engage with first n ations and are, and they will work through the processes with them. i'll tell the member that on one of the actual pipe- lines that are involved, 16 of the 17 first n ations have already signed on in support of the one particular pipe - line.

So the member should remember that we will do the work with first n ations, as we always have and will continue to do. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Fraser: i guess Premier c lark appointed a new Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation. This comes from the minister that last week demon - strated he doesn't even know the difference between tar sands bitumen and liquid natural gas. The bitumen, that tar sands stuff, is black and gooey and will ruin eco - systems. n atural gas is lighter than air at atmospheric temperature.

Since he doesn't seem to know that file, i don't think it bodes a lot of confidence in the new file of a boriginal r elations. in order to respect the new relationship, this govern - ment must — and i'm going to quote to the minister responsible — "ensure that lands and resources are man - aged in accordance with first n ations laws, knowledge and values." enbridge is responsible for over 700 spills in their operations in the last decade. first n ations have said no.

That's no to oil spill industry and yes to a living environment and healthy, thriving fisheries. t o the minister responsible: are she and the b.c. l iberal Premier willing to force a tar sands pipeline on northern and coastal first n ations, even in the face of overwhelming first n ation opposition? Hon. R. Coleman: We do know the difference, hon. Member, between oil and natural gas. both of them are natural resources in british c olumbia that are ac - tually paying for education and health care and social programs. i know you live in a little cocoon out there, hon.

Member, but every month tankers come into the Port of Vancouver and deliver oil and gasoline to british c olumbia so we can run our economy. a re you going to go out and stop that too, hon. Member? We have an environmental review process in c anada and in british c olumbia better than anywhere else in the world. We'll stand behind that. We'll stand behind our consultations. We'll try and create jobs and invest - ment in british c olumbia so we can pay for all the things that you people want, like health care and education and social programs for the people of british c olumbia.

Go VernMent PreP areD neSS for oil SPill S R. Fleming: This morning Ministry of environment officials are telling the media that it will take years for

british c olumbia Debates6842 t uesday, May 10, 2011 the Goldstream r iver to be free of gas and diesel residue from a recent accident. The gas truck just spilled over 250 barrels of gasoline into the Goldstream r iver, while the latest pipeline rupture in a lberta spilled almost 28,000 barrels of heavy crude into a lberta's environment. t o the Minister of environment: if 250 barrels of gas - oline devastate a river in this community, can he tell the h ouse what a spill of 28,000 barrels of heavy crude would do in the environment of british c olumbia? [1415] Hon. T.

Lake: of course, we regret that gasoline spilled into the Goldstream r iver. We're working very hard with a multi-agency team, including first n ations. i visited the site myself and was very pleased with the response of our ministry and the first n ations as well as the federal agencies. We're committed to making sure that the persons responsible for these types of events are fully held accountable and pay for all of the costs. We're quite con- fident that the processes we have put in place will in fact lead to total rehabilitation of that river.

We're very confi- dent in our environmental assessment office and the risk assessment for the major projects that come through to british c olumbia. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. R. Fleming: a s the Minister of e nvironment knows, the proposed enbridge tar sands pipeline would cross hundreds of streams and rivers in british c olumbia. This is a pipeline that would contain and carry 525,000 bar - rels of crude per day.

The associated crude oil supertanker traffic would put the entire coast, including the pristine Great bear rain forest, at risk of a catastrophic spill. a gain to the environment Minister: how can british c olumbians trust the b.c. l iberals to protect b.c. coastal communities and the tens of thousands of jobs, the thou- sands of small businesses that rely on a clean marine environment? or will this government continue to take risks with the environment that british c olumbians, in poll after poll, overwhelmingly reject? Hon. T.

Lake: Well, it is the case that british c olumbia has a very robust, well-respected environmental as - sessment process. The member opposite is already prejudging the outcome. i thought the reason that we had proper institutions in this province, in this country, was to allow everyone to have a fair process. The environmental assessment process is robust.

We will consider all of the potential effects of any project that comes before us. l ast time i checked, that member opposite still owned a car and appreciated having the natural resources of this great country enable us to have the lifestyle. but it has to be in balance with our environment. We will make sure that our environment is well protected here in british c olumbia. iMPact of harM oniZeD SaleS taX eli Mination on re Staurant in Du Str Y B. Ralston: british c olumbians have learned the hard way that they can't trust anything the b.c. l iberal gov- ernment says about the hS t .

Y esterday the Minister of finance threatened that a rejection of the hS t in the referendum would still result in higher meal costs for british c olumbians and continued pain for the restau - rant and food service industry. So i'd like to offer the minister the opportunity to clarify his comments. Will the finance Minister confirm that when the hS t is defeated, a return to the PS t will mean that the addi - tional 7 percent hS t tax on restaurant meals will be gone? Hon. K. Falcon: Well, i'm not sure what he refers to. i made no such commitment whatsoever.

What i did say is that it would be irresponsible to make any com - mitment — good, bad or indifferent — until such time as we know what the results of the referendum are and until such time as we have a conversation with british c olumbians on how best to deal with the impacts, good or bad, with respect to the referendum. but i am, as i've mentioned before, quite interested in understanding — as i sat here today and listened to yet more requests from the nDP to spend more money in virtually every ministry — how they are going to square their rather aggressive and ambitious spending program against the fact that they're campaigning for the res - toration of the provincial sales tax, which in fact, as we know from the independent panel report, will deprive the province of british c olumbia in a two-year period alone of almost $3 billion in revenue. i'm very interested in hearing from the nDP finance critic how they intend to square that circle. interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. [1420] B. Ralston: Well, the restaurant and food service industry — those who work in it, those hundreds of thousands of people who work in that industry — has a right to know the answer to this question. The refer - endum question that's going before the public — and it is binding upon the government — is simple: are you in favour of extinguishing the hS t and reinstating the PS t in conjunction with the GSt — yes or no? t o the minister again: if the people of british c olumbia choose to reject the hS t , will they get the original PS t ,

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6843 or will they be getting a poison pill PS t concocted by this minister? Hon. K. Falcon: W e've been very clear that we will honour and obey the direction the public makes, whatever that decision is, with respect to the decision over whether to stay with the harmonized sales tax or go back to the nDP's preferred option, which is the PSt plus the GSt . i do think, though, that the public will also be in - terested in hearing about the nDP's proposition.

The l eader of the o pposition has said he's actually going to campaign for an option which will see british c olumbia move, under the nDP's preferred option, to a retail sales tax — something that nowhere in the world, no jurisdic - tion, has done in 35 years. it is fascinating that part of that l eader of the o pposition's what i call the tax trifecta of economic de - struction includes going back on a retail sales tax where almost nowhere else in the world is going. i'm happy to see that debate unfold. i am really looking forward to hearing from the l eader of the o pposition how he intends to dramatically increase spending in every min - istry of government while at the same time campaigning for an option that the independent panel, of which they are fond of quoting, has pointed out very clearly will cost the government coffers, over the next couple of years, al- most $3 billion. i'm very interested in seeing that answer from the nDP . [end of question period.] Orders of the Day Hon.

R. Coleman: Mr. Speaker, i was busy for a mo - ment there. in this h ouse we will be continuing the estimates of the Ministry of Social Development, and in c ommittee a we will be continuing the estimates of the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. [1425] Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of Social De Velo PMent (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section b); l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:29 p.m. on Vote 40: ministry operations, $2,339,088,000 (continued). J.

Kwan: Just prior to the break my colleague the member for Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast was asking the minister about some of the rates and some of the exemption-related matters. i'd like to first ask the minister a quick question. c hild tax benefit — that would be the c anada child tax bene - fit. a re those dollars deducted dollar for dollar for those who are on income assistance, or are they exempt? [1430] Hon. H.

Bloy: in response to the member's question this morning regarding part-time employees, the num - ber of part-time employees is 137. in response to the member's question, the federal child tax benefit is exempt from income tax rates. J.

Kwan: What the minister, i think, meant to say is that it is exempt from income assistance, so it's not clawed back dollar for dollar. in that instance, could the minister explain to me why recipients who receive retroactive payment on the c anada child tax benefit get those dollars clawed back? in other words, sometimes the federal government makes mistakes, and those income assistance recipients receive their c anada child tax benefit in a lump sum in a delayed manner, not through any fault of their own.

They're entitled to that money, and had they received that money in a timely fashion on a month-by-month basis in the designated time they were supposed to re - ceive it, those dollars would not be clawed back. but in the instance where those moneys arrive late from the federal government in a lump sum, those dol - lars are then clawed back by the ministry. Why is that?

Why that penalty against families and their children? a nd if that policy is bad — and i would assume that the minister would admit that's a bad policy — will he then commit today to eliminating that clawback so that those families who should be receiving those dollars would get every cent of it as they deserve? [1435] Hon. H. Bloy: r etroactive child benefit supplement payments are treated as unearned income and deducted from income assistance, as they are not for the child's current monthly support needs. J.

Kwan: but surely the minister understands the il - logicalness of this — right? h ad the money arrived on time for that month for that family, they would have been able to keep every single cent of that child tax benefit from the federal government. but because of a mistake from another entity — namely, the federal government — the family receives that money late. They then receive the money in a lump sum, and when that happens, they get those moneys reduced from their income assistance cheques. That makes no sense. That's literally taking money out of the hands of chil - dren.

There's no other way to describe it, Madam c hair.

british c olumbia Debates6844 t uesday, May 10, 2011 That is a policy question. i know what the minister's policy says and what his briefing book says, and i know what his staff is going to tell him. it's a policy that has been put in place that is plain wrong. What i'm asking for today is political leadership from this minister and for this government, who say that they want to support and put families first. So i ask the min - ister to please not consult with your staff, because they cannot give you that answer. They are not authorized to give you that answer. The answer can only come from the politician.

That would be the minister, in this instance, and i'm asking the minister: does he believe that those dollars should be clawed back when they are retroactively paid to the families? This would be the c anada child tax benefit re- ceived by a family in a lump sum because of an error from the federal government. Y es or no? if he believes that family is first, then i would ex - pect that his answer would be, "n o, they should not be clawed back," and that he'll do everything he can to fix that problem and tell the Premier that it is a wrong policy and that they will in fact immediately eradicate that.

That would be the answer i'd be expecting from a minister who will advocate on behalf of children and who believes in the policy of putting families first. [1440] Hon. H. Bloy: When an income assistance recipient is not receiving child tax benefits, the ministry provides a top-up. a ssistance is provided to meet needs in the current month, and that's why when a retroactive bene - fit is received, it is declared as income. J. Kwan: The situation, of course, is this. When the minister talks about a top-up, it's not an automatic top-up.

People don't get an addition in their support portion because they didn't get their child tax bene - fit. They go to the ministry to ask for further assistance, and sometimes they get it, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have to pay it back. Well, i'm asking for a basic policy change. a nybody with a reasonable sense would agree with me, and that is to say that the c anada child tax benefit that is given to every single family that is eligible, including those on income assistance, should be staying with those families without a clawback.

The minister has told us that the policy is such that if you should receive that money on time, then you would not receive a clawback.

Those families and those chil - dren get to keep that money to support them. but if for some reason the federal government makes a mistake and you somehow receive that money late, if somehow there is a delay for you to receive that money and it ac - cumulates over a period of time…. [1445] in the instance of a constituent of mine, for over six months they did not get their child tax benefit. f or those six months they ran around, they maxed out their credit card, they borrowed money, and they went into debt to try to survive.

Then finally, the federal govern - ment sorted out the problem and sent them a cheque in a lump sum. Guess what. Dollar for dollar, that money was deducted from that family. They can't even use that money to pay off the debt that they owe, the interest that they have to pay as a result of racking up the credit card.

That's what i'm asking for — a policy change. i'm not interested for the minister to make up some reason why it's okay to do that, because it's not okay. if the minister believes and this government believes in family first, they would allow those families to keep that money, the child tax benefit from the federal govern - ment, which they would have been entitled to keep had the money arrived on time. i ask the minister to show leadership, but he's not been able to do that. l et me try another area, Madam c hair — dollar-for- dollar cut to child support payments.

This has been a policy that was brought on by the b.c. l iberal govern- ment back in 2002. They eliminated any child support payment exemptions for any parent on income assist - ance, which disproportionately impacts women. c hild maintenance payments are meant to directly support children in single families. This policy directly impacts the supports for children in vulnerable fam - ilies.

Dollar-for-dollar cut of child support payments for families just keeps children, frankly, in poverty. is it any wonder that we have the highest child poverty rate in the country year after year? in the first two years it was implemented, the loss of the child maintenance exemption affected on average 6,104 families each month, and the government clawed back $14.6 million in spousal support from single moth- ers.

The elimination of child support exemption is one of the reasons, as i said, that's impacting children who are living in poverty today. a long with the cut in family maintenance in 2002, the b.c. l iberal government — and the minister will know because he was here during that time — has also elim - inated earnings exemption. a nyone without a PW or PPMb designation — so for people on income assist - ance but not on disability — 100 percent of their earned income is clawed back, serving as a deterrent for them to re-enter the workforce.

Since 2002 the loss of the $200-per-month flat-rate earnings exemption and the $100-per-month child maintenance exemption represents a $300 loss in in - come for these families. in the first two years since that policy was implemented, the government clawed back a total of $35.8 million from working welfare recipients over that two years, taking money directly from families and children who are in greatest need. i'm asking again for the minister to take political leadership. if he truly believes in what the Premier says — that they would put families first — will he ask the

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6845 Premier today to change that policy? She was part of the decision-makers around this table back in 2002 when she was Deputy Premier. if she believes in putting families first, will this min - ister say to the Premier today to change that policy and allow single parents, single moms, to keep their child maintenance support money when they're on income assistance? a nd will they reintroduce earnings exemp - tion once again for working families who are on income assistance?

Will he commit that today? i just need a simple yes or no. t o the minister: will you talk to the Premier and make that commitment? [1450-1455] Hon. H. Bloy: Y ou know, earning exemptions were reformed in 2002. They were increased to $500 a month for persons with a disability, but they'll stay on the case- load much longer and combine their benefits with work experience. e arnings exemptions were eliminated for expected-to-work clients based on research that they created a disincentive for those employable clients to re- turn to work. it's proven since 2002 that the caseload has gone down.

Ministry research on these clients who returned to work has shown they are earning more money off of income assistance year over year than they would have on income assistance. That's one of two answers. Government supports fam- ilies and single-parent homes to secure maintenance support agreements. income assistance is there for the families who need to draw upon it, and maintenance amounts are considered to determine the income that the person can exist on. J. Kwan: on that last answer on child maintenance, i know that is the policy.

What i'm saying is that the policy is wrong. c hild maintenance money should be money that should be given to the families to support the child. That is why it's called child maintenance. i have a single mom in my riding, Ms. l enlen c astro, who fled a violent relationship so that her young daugh- ter could have a fresh start and a safe start. She pursued the maintenance dollars, thinking that those dollars would be there to support her new baby girl. n ot so.

The money would have been clawed back dollar for dollar. [1500] imagine if you were a single parent fleeing a violent relationship, and in spite of that, you went to pursue the maintenance dollars — as the ministry social workers asked her to do. She did exactly that, putting herself pot- entially at risk because she wanted additional support for her family, and she couldn't get it. She spoke publicly about this.

Why? because she wants the policy changed not only for herself but for other mothers and children and single parents in british c olumbia in her similar situation. i know what the policy is, and i'm telling the min - ister that the policy is wrong. if the minister and this government believe that family should come first, then the most vulnerable families should get the support, and that policy should change. a ll that i was asking this minister was whether or not he would commit to talk to the Premier — because she says she's changed — to see if she will then bring in a policy revision related to these matters. finally, i know we're out of time. i asked, like, three or four questions. it's taken about half an hour there, and i'm just going to ask the minister this question. i don't need him to consult with his staff and for them to write out an answer. i simply just need a yes or a no. h e says there's research somewhere to show that in fact the income assistance rate had gone down and that that is directly linked to earnings exemption — that the elimina- tion of earnings exemption somehow is good for income assistance recipients, that somehow it propels them to go and get work and get off of income assistance. i challenge the minister, then — not today but at a later time — to table the documentation to back up that claim. i'd love to see it, because i don't believe it.

Hon. H. Bloy: f or the member across the way, there are three research reports on the ministry's website: the longitudinal administrative database report showing outcomes of clients leaving income assistance. They're on the website, but my staff will also forward you a copy of the research. S. Simpson: i want to talk a little bit about welfare rates at this point. The minister will know that the last rate increase, the only one during the term of this gov - ernment, was in 2007. That, of course, came after the government had put in the only rate cut, in 2002, to cut rates.

The rates were increased in 2007. [1505] The problem is that in every category, with the excep- tion of singles between 18 and 54, when you factor in inflation, people were worse off with the 2007 rate than they were in 2001 — heading up to a single parent with two children being about $330 worse off per month than she was before.

The results of this, as we all know, are things like rec - ord use of food banks — almost 95,000 people in March 2010, a 5 percent increase in the use of food banks. of those who use food banks, 44 percent of them are people who are collecting a welfare cheque and have to use a food bank in order to feed their families and make it work. My question to the minister is: does the minister be - lieve that the welfare rates currently in place in british c olumbia are sufficient to meet the basic needs of a family? [1510]

british c olumbia Debates6846 t uesday, May 10, 2011 Hon. H. Bloy: in british c olumbia our income as - sistance is there to provide assistance to those who are most in need, and our rates are comparable to other provinces. We recognize that it is a challenge to live on income assistance.

People often do not know what the various supports available to low-income households are. f or instance, a two-parent family of four on income assistance receives a host of provincial and federal benefits that in fact bring their monthly income to about $1,800 per month and $2,025, if their children are under the age of six, to suffi- ciently meet the monthly cost of a nutritional diet based on Canada's Guidelines for Healthy Eating as well as shelter and other expenses. S.

Simpson: Well, what we know is that in 2009 the Dietitians of c anada released a report called The Cost of Eating in B.C. in that report they outlined how low- income british c olumbians can't afford healthy food in british c olumbia. k ey findings included that they de - termined the monthly cost for a nutritious food basket for a family of four is about $872. a family of four on income assistance would need more than 100 percent of their total income for shelter and food only, so they don't get to eat that food.

What we also know is that the body that was put in place by the previous Premier, by Premier c ampbell, to measure success and progress in this province has released a damning report of this government's per - formance when it comes to low income. in 2001 the government set up the b.c. Progress board.

The board set a goal of improving social conditions in b.c., setting a target of being first or second in c anada for having the smallest percentage of families and un - attached individuals living below the low-income cutoff by 2010, measured by the percentage of individuals and families below Stats c anada's low-income cutoff. That was the measure that was set in 2001. What we know is that in their tenth annual report the Progress board reported that british c olumbia ranks sixth out of the ten provinces when it comes to the social condition.

The report went on to say that for ten straight years — and this is the Progress board, a government- appointed body, measuring this — in fact, b.c. has had the highest number of people with incomes below the low-income cutoff or what used to be called the poverty line — the highest number. it also showed that the in - cidence of long-term unemployment in b.c. has been worse than the national average since 2006. We have income rates, welfare rates that have gone down, essentially, when you factor in inflation.

We have a progress board set up by the government and Premier c ampbell that says: "Y ou've failed miserably in meeting the standards around social conditions." Y ou have the Dietitians of c anada saying that people on welfare can't afford to eat healthy and feed their children, and you have record use of food banks.

My question is to the minister. a gain, does the min - ister believe that welfare rates are sufficient to meet the basic needs of people in british c olumbia who unfortu- nately find themselves on income assistance? if he does, he can say yes. if he doesn't believe it's sufficient, what is he prepared to do about it as minister? [1515] Hon. H. Bloy: Some of this we had discussed this morning, but income assistance is just one part of a pack- age of services available to support low-income families.

The province supplies a suite of services in addition to income and taxation and benefits that would be avail - able from the tax system. Some of those are: the b.c. climate action tax credit, the b.c. harmonized sales tax credit, the c anada child tax benefit, the b.c. f amily bonus, national child benefit supplement, universal child care benefits. f or the mem- ber across, the percentage of the population living below the low-income cutoff has reduced dramatically since the year 2000 from 15.1 percent to 11.4 percent. S.

Simpson: The minister might know that that per - centage, at just over 11 percent, the n ational c ouncil of Welfare would tell us is the worst rate in the country. [1520] it doesn't answer my question, though. My question to the minister is: does he believe that current welfare rates are sufficient to meet the needs of families? if he does, he can stand up and say yes, he believes that they're sufficient. if he doesn't believe that they're suf - ficient to meet the needs of families, then my question is: what actions is he contemplating taking to deal with them? Hon. H.

Bloy: t o answer your question, Member, b.c., along with all other provinces, considers welfare rates as only a portion of the support that families need. o ther supports include benefits in the tax system and other services for low-income families. S. Simpson: The minister continues to not answer the question. The reality is this. The n ational c ouncil of Welfare — again, an independent body that looks at these things — has looked at what's gone on in british c olumbia. a nd what have they discovered?

They have discovered that since the peak year for social assistance, which was 1994, we have seen, in real dollars adjusted for inflation, that in every category people are worse off today than they were then. Single employables income since 2009 is down about $1,300; a single person with disability, down more than $1,360; a lone parent with child, down $1,338; a couple with children between ten and 15 are down more than $2,600. in every one of those cases of the four categor - ies they looked at, we've seen people worse off today in

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6847 real dollars than they were in 1994. The welfare rates are not sufficient. [1525] n ow, you can increase welfare rates. That's one way to deal with these issues. a nother way to deal with these issues is to look at exemptions that allow people who have capacity to do it to be able to earn other income.

The problem is that british c olumbia is probably the worst province in the country when it comes to earn - ings exemptions and what is allowed under earnings exemptions. i would again talk about the n ational c ouncil of Welfare. one of things they've stated in the research that they've done is that probably the most effective tool to break the trap of welfare is earnings exemptions, which allow people who have the wherewithal to get ahead. but as my colleague from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant pointed out, we don't seem to have that opportunity any longer in british c olumbia. one of the things they do in Manitoba is that they have a system, what they call now the new liquid asset policy, which allows people up to $4,000 per person or $16,000 a family, i believe it is, of assets that they can bring into their family, of exemptions that they can claim, which allows them to look for opportunities to move ahead.

Y et we're not seeing any of that in british c olumbia. c ould the minister tell us why the government of british c olumbia offers such a limited scope of earnings exemptions when every other province, with the excep - tion of a lberta, essentially allows some kind of income exemptions in pretty much every category? in british c olumbia that's not the case at all. The exemptions are very limited.

Why has british c olumbia chosen to have such a narrow view on earnings and income exemptions when we know from the research that it opens doors to create opportunities for people to break that cycle of poverty? [1530] Hon. H. Bloy: a s the member knows, we did visit this topic with the previous member that was up. f or employable clients, the evidence is clear that earnings exemptions encourage people to combine part-time employment with income assistance. instead of help - ing employable clients become independent, earnings exemptions increase dependency, making it harder for people to leave income assistance.

The ministry has been successful in transitioning expected-to-work clients to employment and financial independence. Studies using tax data have shown that over 80 percent of british c olumbian expected-to-work clients who moved off income assistance have gone on to employment and are better off working.

Ministry re - search has shown that clients who leave assistance for employment have had higher average incomes and lower rates of poverty, and their incomes have tended to increase in subsequent years if they stay off the income assistance. e arnings exemptions are provided to clients that face serious barriers to employment, who are in most cases unable to work full-time and to become financially in - dependent. e arning exemptions are intended to help these clients participate in the workforce according to their abilities. S.

Simpson: f rankly, the minister is just simply wrong. e arnings exemptions are an effective tool. income exemptions are an effective tool. They have consistently proven to be an effective tool to break the poverty cycle, and the minister is simply wrong when he says anything different. The reality is this: finding opportunities for people to break that cycle becomes critical. i'm going to move a little bit to another area that relates somewhat to this. i might have to do a little com- bining here, so i'm going to bounce a little bit between PWD and income assistance. Maybe this is a connected area.

The minister will know about the program, the com - munity volunteer supplement that's available to people — PWD and persons with multiple barriers. This is a supplement that allows people to volunteer for recog - nized organizations to be able to make an additional $100. What we know is that there's a long waiting list of people to be able to get on to those programs. it's a pro- gram that's simply not meeting their needs. i have two questions.

The first question is: how long is the waiting list for people for the community volunteer supplement program? is the government and the minister looking at all at providing some additional resources to allow those people — the people the minister just spoke about, largely people with disabilities — to be able to partici - pate in the community, and to be able to supplement what is a pretty modest or meagre income to start with, by being involved in a program that the government has but won't adequately fund to allow people to take ad - vantage of it? [1535] Hon. H.

Bloy: a s an avid volunteer myself, i understand the positive impacts on someone's life of volunteering, and we are pleased with the appeal of this program. We are proud to have the most generous and extensive community volunteer program in c anada. b.c.'s commitment far outpaces any other province. The $5.3 million budget for 5,000 persons with disabilities far exceeds the half a million dollars for Manitoba, the only other province that has a community volunteer supplement. in the budget of 2007 we increased this program by $3 million and now have a longer wait-list than before, and

british c olumbia Debates6848 t uesday, May 10, 2011 we are exploring options to address this problem. The current wait-list is 7,000 clients. S. Simpson: h ow long is the wait-list for people want- ing to get into the volunteer program? Hon. H. Bloy: a s i just said, the wait-list is currently 7,000 clients. S. Simpson: So how long does that mean that some - body is likely to be waiting, and is there any intention on the part of the government to improve the program if it's obviously successful? People are using it.

People are looking to engage in it. is there any intention to add enough money to reduce that list by some amount, and if so, could the minister tell us about it? Hon. H. Bloy: a s i previously said, we are pleased at how successful this program is, and we are looking at options to address this. S. Simpson: c ould the minister tell us what "options" means and what he's considering? [1540] Hon. H. Bloy: Staff in the ministry are looking at the trend rates for the program in order to consider how best to maximize the program's current scope.

This includes considering case studies, considering client outcomes and how best to support clients. S. Simpson: i just want to deal with a couple of ques - tions that relate to the wait-lists for people on assistance at the moment. What we know in relation to that is that i know the ministry has allocated an increase of about $65 million for income assistance over three years, largely to deal with the dramatic increases in the welfare rolls. a bout 3,000 people, i believe, is what was underestimated this year and the coming year.

We know there are signifi - cant increases, looking at numbers over 107,000 people on assistance in '08, 123,000 in '09, almost 133,000 in 2010. c ould the minister tell us — because i know there've been some problems with delays in processing people: does the problem continue to exist in terms of pro - cessing people and getting intake done for people on assistance? if so, what's being done to address it? [1545] Hon. H. Bloy: The member is right. There have been demands placed on our staff to be able to meet the challenge.

We have diversified our service channels to provide services on the phone and also introduced a self-serve application and assessment tool. We con - tinue to speak with our regional staff. We have a triage of processes in place to continue to ensure that those with immediate needs have their needs met on a prior - ity basis. While the member is right that there have been chal - lenges, the ministry and its staff continue to address them, and there have been considerable improvements over the past few months. S.

Simpson: before i ask the next question, i'll flag that just after five o'clock we're going to move to multi - culturalism, just so the minister knows. i also believe my friend from Delta South has some questions related to employment programs. i know that Ms. bond, i be - lieve, covers both those areas. if she's in the precinct, if she comes into the chamber, then the member for Delta South could get her questions related to that. She will be here in five minutes or so? That's great.

Thank you. on the questions related to the wait-list, could the minister tell us what has been the result of those prob - lems in terms of how it has affected people, in terms of periods of time they've had to wait or delays in being able to get service because of problems around wait- lists? i understand that a lot of people came into the system without having additional staffing at that time, and that creates a complication. c ould the minister tell us what the problem is there? What was the impact of that problem on people who were recipients?

More specifically, how is it being addressed? a re there additional staff being brought in? h ow is that being addressed so that we don't face it in the present? in the future, hopefully, demand will go down. [1550] Hon. H. Bloy: We experienced a significant increase around c hristmas, and some of our challenges were re - lated to it being that time of the year. Since that time, regional staff have worked hard to address the number of incoming applications, and we are more in line with our service standards.

Service requests that are not im - mediate in nature will be actioned within five business days. [1555] We continue to pursue an active hiring initiative to maintain a full complement of front-line staff at all times. i am particularly pleased at staff 's ability to man - age during these periods so that people with needs have been met. S.

Simpson: Maybe we'll get back to this at a later time. it's going to take some time, i can tell. on a related matter, i have heard on numerous occa - sions about challenges related to the automated phone system: people talking about getting into the phone sys - tem and dropped calls and ending up on dead lines and a whole array of challenges related to the automated phone system for people calling in.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6849 c an the minister tell us whether he is aware of these problems, and if so, what action is being taken to im - prove that system? [1600] [D. black in the chair.] Hon. H. Bloy: Y es, i am aware, and i actually recently visited the call centre responsible for providing services to Vancouver island and for provincial programs. The people have responded very positively to the introduc - tion of phone service. in fact, over 1.5 million phone calls came in the first year.

Some examples of how we are looking to improve these services. in the interior we've extended the hours of call into the evening. We are consulting with experts in the de- livery of phone-based services about how to make them more effective. o ur ministry isn't the only part of govern- ment that delivers services by phone. W e are looking to share our common experiences and maximize our cap - acity by providing services to citizens over this channel. S.

Simpson: i want to make sure that i understood the minister correctly. i didn't hear the minister recog - nizing that there were problems with the system. is the minister suggesting that he doesn't believe that there have been problems with the phone system? Hon. H. Bloy: Y es, i am aware of the problems. S.

Simpson: c ould the minister tell us whether there's been some assessment done to determine how many people got caught in that system — with dropped calls, with lost calls, people who weren't able to connect? [1605] if so, what steps have been taken with the people do - ing…? i assume it's technology and software combined. So what steps have been taken to correct that, and who pays for those corrections? is it the people we bought the service, that system, from, or is it the taxpayer? [1610] Hon. H.

Bloy: We're really pleased with the responses that we're getting on the phone system and the responses that we're getting in other provinces across c anada. The people's experiences very much depended on the part of the province they are calling from. in some areas called, they received service in one or two minutes; in other areas they may take 20 to 25 minutes. We are aware that some of the calls are lost due to high volume, and we do not have a reliable database to report on this. There have been no additional system costs to the province.

We are pursuing continued improvements through our hiring strategy and are seeking advice from experts in this area and consulting with our cross- government colleagues. S. Simpson: i'm going to move to another area. i don't know whether Ms. bond is going to be with us soon. in 2010 legislation was passed regarding outstanding warrants. e ssentially, recipients who have outstanding arrest warrants may not be eligible for income assistance, for hardship assistance, etc. When i spoke yesterday to some of the staff, i believe they stated estimates….

They stated that there had been 494 requests for warrants, 237 verifications of the warrants, but that only one person was cut off service as a result of that. i believe that it's the Solicitor General's ministry that does the review and then provides the information. c ould the minister confirm whether it's correct that of that series, of the almost 500 requests that were done, only one person was cut off service as a result of that? Hon. H. Bloy: We checked last night and have up - dated and confirm that the number that have been issued warrants and have been cut off of income assist - ance is actually four. S.

Simpson: So is that four people in total from June 1, 2010 — from the enactment of the legislation — till the present? i see a staffer nodding, so i'll accept that that is accurate. c ould the minister tell us: what are the costs related to doing these warrant checks that have related to four people being cut off? [1615] Hon. H. Bloy: The cost to date for the ministry is $10,000. S.

Simpson: So $10,000. if i'm correct here — and i understand the minister won't have a number for an - other ministry, so i'm not expecting a number — that would be the cost for this ministry. but would it be fair to assume that there would be costs related to Public Safety and Solicitor General, for them to provide the reviews or the work that they do, or are there other min- istries that play a role in this, maybe other than Solicitor General, who would also have costs related?

Just an acknowledgment of that. i know that the min- ister probably wouldn't have those numbers for other ministries, but are there other ministries that would also acquire costs for this? Hon. H. Bloy: a s far as we're aware, that is the total cost for the warrant search. S. Simpson: c onsidering that out of 500-odd re - quests for warrants and processes, four people in some fashion got cut off…. Maybe i'll get to that question in a moment. on the ministry's website it says: "The ministry will check for a warrant when an applicant or recipient dis -

british c olumbia Debates6850 t uesday, May 10, 2011 closes they have a warrant, or is unsure if they are subject to a warrant, or if the ministry is provided information that indicates the existence of a warrant or at the minis - ter's discretion." c ould the minister give, maybe, an example of a situation of what type of information would come to the minister that might provide the minister with con - firmation of the existence or indicate the existence of a warrant, other than self-disclosure? What kind of infor - mation would be available? [1620] Hon. H.

Bloy: o ur experience is that the majority of these cases are self-disclosed. They could also be dis - closed from a law enforcement agency to us. S. Simpson: f or that to occur, would that be an in - stance where they would make this available, or does the ministry make requests of law enforcement agencies for information on applicants? Hon. H. Bloy: We've never made a request for the in- formation from law enforcement. S.

Simpson: i want to move to a question, maybe just one or two more questions, in relation to this. is there any checking of warrants for people who are current re- cipients — not applicants but people who are existing recipients? a re they also required to give that informa - tion, or are there checks for them? Hon. H. Bloy: Y es, it's a question that we have on the ministry's monthly request for continued assistance, which the recipients submit back to us each month. S. Simpson: Moving to a bit of a different topic. This is the issue of caseloads versus no caseloads.

The ministry moved a number of years ago away from the notion of caseloads — workers who carried a case - load of a number of clients and worked with those clients on an ongoing basis — to the current system, which i believe essentially is that somebody phones in, a client phones in, and they are serviced by whoever takes that call, whoever the duty person is. They provide whatever service or interaction there is. There obviously is a significant debate about whether one system is better than the other or whether it makes no difference in terms of the services.

My question to the minister is: has the ministry done any evaluation of the caseload versus no caseload model, and have they done that evaluation from the perspective of both the workers and the consumers of the service, the clients? h as there been any evaluation done? [1625] Hon. H. Bloy: There hasn't been a formal study on this topic, but the ministry does continue to examine trends for people's time on income assistance.

There hasn't been any difference in people's time spent on assistance attributable to the move away from a caseload-specific model. f urthermore, designated workers are available when it is necessary for a client to maintain a consistent work- ing relationship with one ministry worker. S. Simpson: The reality is that the vast majority of people clearly receive their service from whoever has the duty roster for the day, and that's fine. Some people believe that that system makes the most sense. i'm not convinced of that, but it would certainly be valuable to know that.

The minister talks about one consideration, which is length of time on income assistance, and that's an im - portant factor. it wouldn't be the only factor, though, if you were doing a proper evaluation, i'm sure. it doesn't say much about what it does in terms of the service the staff believe that they're providing. i know, from conversations that i've had with line staff of the ministry, that some of them feel a frustration with this.

They don't feel that they necessarily have the opportunity to provide the best possible service when they don't get to build the relationship with people that a caseload model allows them and affords them. [1630] My question, then, is: does the ministry have any in - tention — and if not, why not? — to do an evaluation of whether this model makes sense in the long term, par - ticularly, as we spoke earlier, about poverty reduction and breaking that cycle of poverty and some assessment as to whether, in fact, it might improve the situation for people on assistance to break that cycle if they were working on an ongoing and more consistent basis with workers, particularly for people who probably are on the employable side, who are looking to get off the system as quickly as possible — that there may be some advan - tage there.

So my question, again, to the minister is: since there's been no formal evaluation, is there any intention to do a formal evaluation of this at any time in the future, and if not, why wouldn't you do it? [1635] Hon. H. Bloy: Y ou know, the member is correct. There are varying points of view about what works best. The ministry is committed to a multichannel approach in providing services.

Phone service has proven very popular, as have self-service and office visits. it is ex - tremely difficult to envision a caseload-based model in a multichannel environment. i agree with the member that focus needs to be on helping people get back to work. Multichannel affords the best opportunity to work with people on employ - ment plans and refer to employment-related services, where the one-to-one client interface is more critical.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6851 S. Simpson: i thank the minister for that answer. i be- lieve that the minister was going to ask for just a couple of minutes. a fter that, the member for Delta South, i be- lieve, has a series of questions, and then we'll be moving on to discussing the multiculturalism piece at that point, following that. We still have a series of questions around disabilities. We have community living tomorrow. So we'll have some conversation over the evening or whatever with staff, with the h ouse l eaders, about how we fit this all in. We'll figure out how to do that.

We'll get through those questions and the multiculturalism, hopefully, in that time. With that, i'll sit down. Hon. H. Bloy: h on. c hair, i ask for a five-minute break. The Chair: c ommittee will recess for five minutes. The committee recessed from 4:38 p.m. to 4:46 p.m. [D. black in the chair.] V . Huntington: i'd just like to comment on the earlier discussion of the community volunteer program. o ur office has been advised that the wait-list has not moved for two years.

With 7,000 names on it, i doubt whether it is going to show much movement, given the budget at- tached to the program. i guess my advice would be that the ministry consider — i don't know — dropping the program if people are being expected to volunteer and wait all of these years while they're volunteering to obtain the supplement. it seems to be a chicken-and-egg thing that isn't working terribly well for those people who sit on the wait-list and yet volunteer.

So i think we all look forward to whatever options you're considering. i'd like to move to the employment skills program and, i guess, the business transition program. Some time ago i wrote to the minister's predecessor with the concern that the decision to include the Delta employment skills program in the 27 programs that have been dropped was, in my estimation, ill-considered. i received a reply back to what i thought was a very reasonable explana - tion of my concerns, and i'd like to just canvass those a bit with the minister now.

The minister advised that other programs in l adner and r ichmond could cover the clients that were part and parcel of the Delta employment skills program or provide the services, and that is quite…. i won't say it's untrue, but it's not the case.

The Delta employment skills program has quite unique services that it provides, and a number of clients are sent from r ichmond to Delta in order to access those specific services. it is a very differ- ent program to the one that is generally offered in most of the other offices. a lso, the numbers of individuals that come from r ichmond to the Delta program are staggering, and the r ichmond office cannot handle their clients as they exist now. one of the reasons the ministry may not have heard of this problem is an issue that i came upon when meet- ing with some of these organizations within the Delta area. i was attending a meeting, parked my car, got out of my car to go into the building, received a phone call and was told that i could not attend the meeting because they had just remembered a clause in the rfP which forbids proponents to attempt to communicate directly or indirectly with any elected official of the province.

"in the event a proponent lobbies the province in relation to this request for proposals, the proponent's proposal may be disqualified." So the groups, in recollecting this clause in the rfP , said: "We can't talk to you. We're not talking to you about the proposals. That's not why we asked you here. We wanted to talk to you about the impact of the busi - ness transformation program, but we don't dare talk to you." [1650] Minister, i'd like to know whether you are aware of that clause in the rfP for these proposals. Hon. H. Bloy: first, i want to respond to the member.

There's nothing in the rfP that prevents an organization or individual from talking to an elected official about unrelated issues to the rfP . The confidentiality and the no-lobbying clauses are there to protect the process and the proponents. They are standard clauses in all govern- ment requests for proposals. V . Huntington: l et me assure the member that that clause and the impact it had on organizations that were needing to speak to their member was significant. They absolutely could not talk to me. They talked to me com- pletely off the record. They were afraid to meet with me.

They were afraid to come into my office, and it didn't matter whether the discussion related to the rfP or to another issue. They were estopped because of the fear they had of that clause. i just want to let the minister know that that was what happened as a result of that clause in the rfP . i would like to just go back and emphasize that the Delta employment skills program situated in l adner services a lot of the clients out of the r ichmond catch- ment area, and some of the people from Surrey are also sent down to this particular program.

The other organ - izations in l adner are not going to be able to cover off the same types of services they have provided. [1655] i would really like yourself — the minister's office and his staff — to reconsider precisely what services are be - ing offered and whether in fact the r ichmond office is

british c olumbia Debates6852 t uesday, May 10, 2011 capable of serving its catchment area as it stands now. They tell me they are not. i know that they send a num - ber of people on a regular basis to the l adner office. Secondly, the business transformation program is doing away entirely with the office, but even more im - portantly, it is leaving a significant gap in Delta, almost a year-long gap, as the office is closed. i've also mentioned that in my letter. There will be no services offered in Delta for up to a year until the new program gets going. i have been asked....

Well, i have heard on a number of occasions that there is a deep concern within the pro- grams that exist now that this service will no longer be available in Delta at all for the next year. There is noth - ing to cover off,

whereas in other areas there seems to be program consistency. i wonder if the minister could speak to that issue of the gap in service to Delta and whether he could see at least the services extended throughout the period of the business transformation program. Hon. H. Bloy: We will not be extending the contract after the agreement reaches its natural end date on May 31. We are working with the DeSP to ensure that all cli - ents are effectively transitioned to one of the six service providers who provide the same services in the area. V .

Huntington: it's so disappointing when no one will listen, which is sort of the cry from the entire prov - ince. We're telling you that the service is not provided by other organizations, that for a period of approximately a year there will be no service provider in Delta at all, and all residents of Delta will have to go to r ichmond and/ or Surrey. f urthermore, when the new program comes into place in a pril 2012, the office is slated to be in n orth Delta. originally there were going to be two offices, but for some reason, the second one got dropped, so south Delta is left without one.

So the office in north Delta.... f or some reason, the ministry will not hear the fact that the transportation between south Delta and n orth Delta looks great on a map but doesn't really exist in re - ality. it is almost impossible to efficiently access n orth Delta.

South Delta naturally gravitates to r ichmond, not to n orth Delta, and for a period of a year you're leaving my entire community without service in Delta. c hilliwack has two and is going to maintain two, but not Delta. [1700] i would like to know what the reasoning is behind this when we are trying to say that the existing services offered in Delta do not offer the same services presently provided by Delta employment Skills. Hon. H.

Bloy: Y ou know, i want to thank the mem - bers across for their passion and for what they believe in, in working with their clients. but i want to assure you that we've had real analysis and thought process on this. in 2009 the province inherited six federal programs delivered through more than 400 contractors. a ll labour market development agreements were reviewed for client service, types of service provided, results.

Decisions not to extend or to end were based on low demand and/or similar employment services available in the commun - ity. c lient service is the first and foremost when making these decisions. [1705] a s a result, 268 agreements were identified for exten - sion to March 31, 2012; ten agreements were identified for an early end date of January 31, 2011; and 17 agree - ments were identified for no further extension beyond their current contract end date. c lients will continue to have access to programs and services in their commun - ities.

We have talked to the remaining service providers to ensure that clients will be effectively serviced in that area. V . Huntington: With great respect, Minister, i have received that standard answer three times now — not just from you but through correspondence with the former minister, precisely the same words. What i am trying to say to you and to your officials is... The Chair: Member, will you remember to...? V .

Huntington: i'm sorry, Madam c hair. ...that an error has been made in the assessment of the Delta South situation, and i would like it to be reviewed. i guess what i'm saying and hoping the minister hears is that this is obviously something he has to take care of out of his office. h e should review the situation person - ally, in my opinion, and try and look at this with an open eye to what the member is saying and what constituents are saying.

The clients will not be served in the same manner, nor will it be convenient for clients of Delta to reach what is going to be the new office, in addition to which there is practically a year's gap in service in my community as a result of these decisions. The officials won't even consider an extension of the contract to cover that gap. There are problems, and i sincerely hope the minister personally considers the issue. M.

Elmore: Thank you to the minister and the staff for the opportunity to raise some questions about multi- culturalism. i just have a few questions. a s i've been meeting with community groups, i wanted to get some input and some feedback in terms of their experience not only with provincial government programs but their experiences in the communities and also canvassing for suggestions and solutions for improving situations in the communities. t o that end, just in terms of reviewing the history of the multiculturalism policy here that we enjoy in

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6853 british c olumbia and looking back, the federal multi - culturalism policy was implemented in 1971 by Prime Minister t rudeau, primarily with the policy goals of promoting national unity and promoting human rights. Through the evolution of that, in 1982 we saw the fed - eral multiculturalism policy embedded in the context of the c anadian c harter of r ights and f reedoms and with having it put out as a multicultural act federally in 1988. n ow in british c olumbia it was put into the b.c.

Multiculturalism a ct in 1996. in terms of the evolution, we've seen that evolution in c anada in terms of our multiculturalism policy, from the original focus on ethnicity-based funding to en - courage ethnic groups to self-organize, to develo

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0510pm-06
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0510pm 06
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	7ff6bf9fbad40086fc9619d326a31c9a3a364b9b

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