Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-sEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY , MAY 6, 1976 Number 58 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER ,.

'fay fi; l971i Tape 2480 PK - 1 The House met at 2:00 P.~~- Mr. ~peaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. member for Trini~y-Bay de Verde. M~ • F. ROHF. : l~r. Speaker, I he~ leave to present a petition on ------ heh<llf of 118 residents of Hant's Harbour in the district of Trinity- Bay de Verde. Sir, it is a very simple petition. It simply states, "That we the undersigned feel that it is the Council's duty to provirl£' a dean,healthy place for us to swim.

The brook is very um<ani tary ~mel it 1 R ahout time the r:ouncil did something about , cleaninr. it up .:1nd provirlfng us \vith a decent place to swim!' And then, "All in favour please sign below," So actually, Sir, J guess this petition should more correctly r,o straight to the Town Council of Baie de Verde. However, I do ~rish to hr:!ng it before the House of Assembly. It is a very simple refluest• It is simply the cleaning up of a brook in the community so that the children in that particular community can s~im in relatively clean wttf>r.

So 1 \vould ask that this petition be presented to the rlep<trtment to v.'hi.ch it rel.atPs, and presumably tt•at would he, because it I nvcilvf>s the Cound l , possibly the Department of Municipal Affairs ancl !lousing, and maybe even the nepartment of the Environment. MR. MURPHY: Has this been brought to our attention? MR. ROFF.: ---- This is the first indication,so I do not know whether it has been brought to the minister's attention or not, Sir. So I do support the petition, and I ask that it be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates.

Sir, if it is in order I have a second petition to present. HR. ROBERTS: --- ---- Somebody may ~~ant to COIIDilent on it. '111. SPEAKER: Jf the hon. member wishes to present both together then J would presume that hon. members may speak on either. MR . ROREP.TS: Are they both the same? 'IR. ROHE: No.

Tape 2480 PK - 2 '1R. SPT':AKJ\R: If anybody else '~ishes to speak on it. :r_~;_.~Y.'l'.. It js really a completely different petition. Hr. ROlli\RTS: Do ------- you ,.,ant to speak on the first one, ''Ank'? ' W . }!lJRPHY: It does not matter. I would just like to say a word ---·--- ~ n the first one. Okny, I think it would be better if the minister commE>nted nm~ . 'ln . SPT':AY..BR: The han. ~inister of Provincial Affairs and the ---- - -· rnvironment. HR. ~URPHY : -- ---- Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to support the prayer of the netition, and it might f,ive me a chance now to inform the House that we are heco~inp, very much concerned with the type of thing that the han. member refers to 1 and l~e are investigating to the best of our nbility these happeninr.s, and particularly where construction is on the go. I have two cases now where construction is taking place and the contractors took it upon themselves to insert culverts and this type of thing, and divert and pollute rivers and this type of thinp,.

So I do not know if we had any little notice in our dE>pnrtment about it, but I would certainly likE" to make mte and get the thi.np; looked at, because, and I aay this again, Sir, and I do not '"' ish t~ make a speech on it, but many of us are aHare in this particular are a here where we live in St. John's, all these surrounding ponds ar e no lonp.:er fit, not talk about drinking, to swim in any !!lOre, and if thil'l continues on what is happening ~lith these rivers and what not T think it is going to be pretty tragic for our young people for recreational purposes and for many other purposes.

So I support the pra ycr of the petition, and I would urge all members l~ho have any s i milar occurences with water ways or anything else . let us know, 1f •·•E' do not handle it He will go to EPS which is the Provincial rnv i ronment gronp and we , •ill have a long hard look at it and see If •·•c• can 'l"ectlfy some of the mistakes that are being made. 'm . SPF.AKF.R: The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. ~'R. ROW!': ---- }'r.

Sp«?aker, he fore presenting the second petition I \could 111st s 111'p1y r.-'lucst the C:ler k of the !!o11se to prohahl y F;et a c ~1w tn the nPI'.1rt11'ent of Munici!'al Affairs 11nn Housing, and the 6845

May 6, 1976 Tape 2480 PK- 3 , Mr. Rower Department of the Environment as well. The second petition, Sir, is on behalf of fifty-one voters on the Hest side of New Harbour in the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde. And, Sir, again this petition is a relatively simple request, but very important to the pc>ople who live on that particular stretch of road on the West sic.le of New Harbour. Sir, they claiM, and I can testify to this, that the roarl is hardly fit to drive or walk on. And the claim of many dtizen s in the area is that no fill has been placed on that particular road for quite a number of years.

However the grader does pass by from time to time, and to use the expression contained in the petition,"The only purpose and function that that grader fills is to shine the rod:s on the road." I think it is probably a marvelous expression to describe "polish and sl!line the rocks on the road." At the present time, Sir, there is a water line being built, being installed to the two fish plants on that point there in New Barbour, and consequently the road is being torn up and in filling in this water line they are actually widening the road.

However, the fill that is being used to widen the road and cover the water line is very loose indeed, and with the normal erosion, with wind and rain and this sort of a thing,the people do not expect that to last too long and in fact you cut into the actual dirt road itself. So the people, Sir, are asking to have this road paved, and it only involves about three-quarters of a mile or a mile of pavement. So that is the simply request of the fifty-one residents of the \vest side of New Harbour. The other side is indeed paved as is the main road to the community.

So that is the only remaining local road, the main local road if I can use that, the main local road,in New l!arbour that is not now paved, and this would also serve citizens beyond the fish plant. But these fifty-one

-~ :·ny 6, 1976 Tape 2481 IB-1 ~ : 1 : . !'. ROI'IE: f'i~ntures are from tile citizens who actually live on that stretch ,r ro<Hl from tlte bridec to the fish plant itself. So, Sir, I iaeartily endorse ancl surport this petition and I would ask tltat tltc l·'inister of Transportation and Communications miGht suppqrt it and speaJ.· to lt and I ask that the petition be placed upon the table of the !lotlse and referred to the riepartment to which it relates. ; - !1~. SPEAKER: The hon. ninister of Fisheries. liP.. \~.

CARTER: I have the honour to present a petition from the residents of the Col inet area the prayer of which calls upon the r,overnmcnt to upgrade and eventually pave the roads in that area. Hr. Speaker, 1 support this petition. It is very important to the people in tlaat general area. A lot of people are using the road. 1 t is probably one of the last remaining places on the Avalon that does not have any pavement. Certainly the community is " large one. People 1vho live there commute daily to other centers to '"ork and consequently the condition of the road is very import~tnt to them.

I li'Ould ask my colleagues to support this peti.tion and ask that it he tabled and referred to the appropriate r.overnment department. 11: . Si' L '\KEI '·' li . N~ The hon. member for LaPoile. gecond and support, Sir, the prayer of all three pet i U0ns that have hcen presented to the House so far. tilL Sl'J::Aiillf! : The hon. Leader of the Opposition • . .2 ~ " ROllER.TS: Fr. Speaker, I am overwhelmed by the eloquence and tile brevity of the r;entleman from LaPoile (}lr. Neary).

I would like to say a word with particular reference to the petition presented by the r:inister of Fisheries in his capacity as the member for St. :- ,,ry's-The Capes, one of the more euphoniously named districts, a very pretty nnmc indeed and a very historic one. I think the prayer 0f the petitjon is well t'lken and I think the request is a reasonable nne and T know that we on this side would very much like to see the ~ 6847

May 6, 1976 Tape 2481 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: prayer of that petition granted and see the work that is requested, to see that work carried out. I have no doubt it will be, Sir, and I hope it will be this year because the Minister of Fisheries has A most heartening degree of influence with his friend and his colleague and his soul mate, the ~linister of Transportation and Communicatiom:.

We are seeing the results of this happy communion, thi.s happy bRnrl of brothers,by virtue of the fact that a very large sum of money has already been alloted for work in the St. ~1ary's-The Capes district, I think particularly the road coming along the Eastern side of St. Mary's Bay from St. Mary's itself coming down towards Trepassey. I believe that is the road,contracts have been called in respect of paving that road. It was upgraded last year and it is being paved this year and that is a very good tldng.

I hope, Sir, the minister is equally successful with his colleague, the Minister of Transportation and Communications in getting money for this work this year, I think it would l>e a ver.y good thing indeed for the people concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the hon. Minister of Fisheries, Very few miles of paving would be required down there and then the people from Colinet would have a paved road right through to St. John 1 s across the Saln1onier Line. It was only in the past couple of years that the people of St.

Nary's received any paving. They were totally neglected for twenty-three years. ORAL QUESTIONS : MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct this question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Would the . minister advise the House as to ~rhether or not he has decided,or a decision has been made,to appoint a magisterial or public enquiry into the tragic drowning& that took place on the Trans-Canada Highway yesterday?

l-1fly 6, 1976 Mil.. SPEAKER: • !'_r. • t-:0 RGAN : Tape 2481 IB-3 The hon. MinisteT of Transportation and COlllliiUidcations. llr, Speaker, as a result of the very unfortunate and tr;'lr,lc nccident yes ter day I have now been assured by my colleague, the Hinister o f Justice, that a magisterial enquiry w-ill be carried out into th;'lt accident . 1R . SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile, ~_. NEARY: l'r. Speaker, a supplementary, to the minister. Has the minister been in touch with Price (Nfld) Limited to see how much of the responsibility for this accident they have to share i n this parti cular thing,or ~ill that be a part of the terms of reference? A magisterial

Hay 6, 1976. MR. NEARY: Tape 2482 RH - 1 inquiry is just a routine thing. Does the minister intend to carry out a public inquiry or just a magisterial inquiry? Magisterial inquiries are routine. MR. SPEAKER: 11R, MORGAN : Order! The hon. Hinister of Transportation and Comnnmicntion. _Mr. Speak~r, the officials in my department have held discussions with Price Newfoundland J,imiterl P-arlier this year. These discussions and negotiations will continue. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hinister of Justice, Sir. MR. SP!AKER: Is this a supplementary to the former question? MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER : Yes, all right. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I want to ask the Minister of .Justice if th1s is just a routine magisterial inquiry that will be carried out in the case of this tragedy or will it be done under the Public Inquiries Act or a judici.<~l inquiry. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Justice, HON. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, under the provisions of the

Summary Jurisdiction Act a magistrate conducting a magisterial inquiry has all the powers conferred on a commissioner pursuant to section (3) of the Public Inquiries Act. The magisterial inquiry vill he a public inqujry. Full, complete and all available relevant evidence will he given before the magisterial inquiry under oath. MR. ~Y: A supplementary to the minister, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for LaPoile for an additional supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister care to name the mar,1 strate now who H:! 11 he conducting this inquiry?

Is the minister in a position to r,ive the name of the magistrate? MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. Hinister of Justice. HR. lUCKMAN: Again, t!r. Speaker, under the

Summary Jurisdiction Act

;r;,y (·. , l'l76. Tape 2482 RH - 2 ~ !r.. !TTCJ('IAN: t llr•re is a s~atut;ory ol•l h:,.tion on the magistrate ~dthin ~<hose jurisdiction, ""'·1n1nr, in \~hose mar,iflter i al district, the death occurs, to hold the 'II'. !WARY: l·n1o is thE' mrt~istrate there at the moment? ~:1' lllr.KHAN: ln that cnsc it would be one of the two nagistrates in r!o" m;or,istPria] rli<;trict of r.rand ralls.

They. are '~agistratc Allan LeGrow, e~ho Ls tl1e senj or mnr>i.,;tr;1tE' theTe.and Magistrate Chester Stone. . . ;:rr.~ 1:n~: ---------- I r~cor.ni?.c the Leader of the Opposition anrl after him the 11on. member Fnr \oli . ndsor-nuchnns(~tr. Flight) on a supplementary. rw l~OHFRTS: Tl,,,n1: vou. Hy question is also for the ninister of .lll<;t ice. Perhaps 1 could pnt it in two parts. First of all, can the mi.nistcr tell us •·•'1ct'u'r t':is magisterial inquiry is order<'d hy Cabinet or Hhcthcr it ariscfl out of the normal course of the worl ·. of the nepartment of Justice anrl the Hinister of Justice under the

Summary Jurisdiction Act? Secondly, could th" minister assure us that .the report of the inquiry being cnrrlctl out by the ma~istrat!! will be made public? Tht' '10n. t!inist:er of Justice. • !!' !liCK)~~!: ·- In :ms•.-Ter to the first part of the question, !!r. Speaker, the Sumrn;~.ry Jurisrlj cti 0n /l.ct provides that there shall he an inquiry into all snelden deaths. It is .1 "tatutory obligation. But ther" is conferred 1Jpnn the n1r."'ctor nf Pnhl!c Prosecutions the right to HaivE' ;, mflp;isterial innuiry ln the cns" of :1 swlrlen death.

For instance, if a person dropped rli':Hl on the strPct nne1 tlH•rc- was a medical certificate indic<Jting that he or she di.ed of a he<Jrt nrtncl:, it would be an unnecessary hur.rlen and hardship nnd "aste of money to hold a magisterial inquiry. Even that can be overruled hy the Attorney r.enernl, a H'liver by a Director of Public Prosecutions. ln this instance my coT.Jeagne, the Hinister of Transportation and Communications, :1sLeel for an assurance frol'l me that there would be a magisterial inquiry.

J have r.iven hiM that assurance. ~!y decision has been communicated to tiH· Jlirc>ctor of Puhlic rrosecutions and it will be held • . t 6851

.• tfay 6' 1976. Tape 2482 Rr - J HR. HICRMAN: With respect to the answer to CJuestion No . two ,I c~mnot give the commitment at this time that the report of the map,i ster.inl i.nCJui. ry will be made public. The rule generally is that any interested pa rty who ,. requires and wishes a tri\I\Script of the evidence that is given and ~~hat- ever is contained in the report can,upon request of the magistrate and/or the Department of Justice throu gh the Director of Public Prosecutions, , obtain same unless there is some criminality involved where it would not be in the public interest. So I do - t!R.

ROBERTS: There is no question of criminality 1 surely. MR.. HICKMAN: No. But again I would not want to be placed in a position where I could prejudp.e the outcome of the i nquiry at th is time . MR . ROBERTS: Can the minister give us an assurance that absent criminality the report 1~ill !>e made public . There ts A lot of put-lie intt'rf'!>t obviously. MR. RICKMAN: Oh yes, 1 am quite certain it will. Rut T do not want bon . gentlemen to say that 1 have p.iven an absolute as!>uranc e heCiluse T know from experience that sometimes these inCJuiries reve:~l. ~ttcrs

""Y 6, 1976 Tape no. 2483 Page 1 - mw '!r. llicb.'lllan . that a'' ' r.nt 'trttclp11td and may fall within that public Lntercst category. ~T.. SPEAKEr..: I rcco:;nizc the hon. member for iHndsor - Buchans \!ltc> also h!'ls a supplem<'ntary. '!R. FLir.IIT: :rr. Speaker, this is a supplementary to my originfll questi0n whicl1 may get lost in the debate Would the l!tnlster of Justice iL1dicate to the House '"'hen this magisterial Lnquiry ~<ill be cornnenced?

And number two - what seems to me to be very important and it may not indeed be, but to me it seems to '•c very importnnt -will the terms of reference of that ;nagisterial inquiry be given to the !louse or to the public? v7hat indeed .,.u 1 be the tet"''s of ref rrence of the magisterial inquiry? T1!C'. hon. ''inister of Justice, ''l' l!ICK!!A~l: •:r. SpNI~:rr, there is not a terms of reference per se ~ " yen do, sP.y, •·.•J t~' ,, ~,.,~· .'11 commission.

There is a statutory n!Jltgi'ltion on thE' magistrate within the jurisdiction where a death oc cur" to contlur.t 'In in <] niry into the cause and all the circu"'stances rc!;pectlnr: t" ~""'' d£>:-t h . ~ow I forgot what th!' hon. gentleman - 'IR. VLTGI!T: '"'en? T cannot put a date on when.

Tte procedure that is fnl]r,,•n-1 in T"O~t ...,~~ic;t<>r'al inqui.ries, 'if not ail, is that immediately rn llowlng a !.;Ut' :]•' tl d<~at:: t:te police CO!llli\encc their investi;_;ation, And ~; .. , lr inve,; t~ .:;a l inn i t: ;J~; t••uch to ascertain t~1e number of relevant ..., lln~sses t1.crc a.re, wherl! they are located, anl that i~ then submitted tc th" Dir:ector uf rabli:: Prosecutions who in turn sends lt on to the magistrate,, and Lh.i.s gives him an idea as to how lilany days L••'-' lu<1uiry is ,;olng to ~ .1ke, how many witnesses will 'be called.

If .! ar L.-,c; :..he cour5" of t!'" ..i.uquiry it becomes apparent t;o the lllagistrate or to the Crovn Llwt ad<l.;.tional witnesses arc necessary, then these will !"f 6853

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2483 Page 2 - mw Mr. Hickman. be subpoenaed as well. But that does take a bit of tilile. It certainly will not start next week or the week after next. llut it will be held as quickly as possible. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for Windsor-Bucl~ns for a supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: I would like a clarification Mr. Speaker, and I will address the question to the Hinister of Justice.

It seems to me that the Minister of Transportation and Communications y~sterday indicated in the House that his department had objected to Price raising the level of the dam at Rushy Pond, but another department of government, namely Environment.had approved the raising. •low it seems to me that such

an act would have to be a Callinct d~cision. Would the minister indicate to this House now as to whether or not the Government of Newfoundland or the Cabinet gave Price (Nfld~ the right to raise that dam by six feet which had the affect of rising the water level six feet which, of course, led up to the accident we are talking about now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I am not in a position to indicate to the !louse Cabinet decisions, Mr. Speaker.

I would suggest that the hon. gentleman check the act of the Department of the Env1roru~ent to see whether or not the environmental officer has conferred upon him that authority to grant the permission. I do not know whether he does or not. MR. ROBERTS: ~lR. HICKMAN: The minister does. Or the minister. But ne may give it on behalf of the minister. Bu~ if it is a ministerial responsibility then obviously - if the minister by legislation is given the right to give a permit,it is not incumbent upon a minister to come to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council for approval of any permit •.

~lay G, 1976 Tape no. 2483 Page 3 - rnw :m. SPEAKER: I reco gnize the bon. member fo r LaPoile on :t supplementary . · n~. Ni!ARY: :tr. Spo.:1ker, I would like to ask the Minister ,. T r :Jn~port:'lt ion and Communications what remedial actio n has now been tn i«>n by his •lepartmen t to correct this situation to rep:tir th:1t :tnt! rec onstruct that stretch of road so aa to ens ure the public that there will be no more acciden ts lllong that piec e of highway? And when will work stat:t on the reconstt:uction? I'm. SPEAKER: The hon . ~linister of Transportation and Communications. ~IlL l!ORGA."i: !fr .

Speaker , wot:k has been going on on that projec t wi th regards to the enc ineering work, and the engine e ring desi gn. Only last wee:< the chic( engineer from my tlepartme 'nt was out in the nrea nnd comple t ed the design work, and in the est.imates this ye,r the re is :m cl locatio n of funds in the estimat es for that very purpose of ca rr y!ng out this wor k,and now that the engineering c!csicn has bee n comple::cd tenders will be called within a matt er of d:'lyS fo 1· the work to be carried out as soon as possible. }!R. SPEAKt:r-: The :.on . member fot: Lewiaporte. .,. () 855

'r-.-- -,..,-... ,.,.,.~---:·-,--,,,.,,...... , • .,....., ... ~,, .. ~' ,lay 6, 1976 Tape 2484 IB-1 MR. WHITE: ~I. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications to give us a report on the situation now, today, West of Grand Falls,in view of the fact · that the person who owns the road , - or who owns the land that the netour went on- closed off that road last night. I mean, what is happenin~ there now today? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Con~unications. MR. MORGAN: I did not get the - MR. WHITE: Well, }fr.

Speaker, just to fill the minister in,the ro<tu which was detoured was barricaded last night by the owner of the land,and for about an hour and a half, two hours, the traffic was backed up on both sides of this particular stretch of road until the RCMP asked the gentleman who owns the land to lift the barricades, I am wondering if the minister knows whether or not the barricade~ have been lifted, whether or not they are going to be put back,or what the situation is. MR. SPEAKER: The han, }linister of Transportation and Communications. MR. IDRGAN: Well first of all with reference to the

section of the Trans-Canada, that one mile section, the situation today is that 800 feet of the Trans-Canada is now submerge!l under six inches of water. So that means that we have to use the detour. Now the property mentioned with regards to the detour,if there is a problem there I will be checking into it this afternoon and get the reply for the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, The hon. member for J,ewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to ask the minister that in view of the fact that he has had twenty-four hours or so to look into this matter,and in view of the fact that a magisterial enquiry will not held for a couple of weeks, whether or not he has anything to indicate whether or not there was incompetence or negligence on the part of any of his staff with regards to this accident the other night in Grand Falls? MR. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Transportation and Communications.

~1ay 6, 1976 Tape 2484 IB-2 }~!. IORGA:I: ':r. Speaker, the reports I have received from the region~! office, from my officials in that office in the Grand Falls area indicate to me that the staff did take every necessary precaution and did act very prudently. YR. NEARY: !lr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. ~!R. SPCA.KER: The han. member for LaP aile. 1m. NEARY: Hill the-minister assure the House that the minister's officials and thE> minister's department got correct information from rrice(Nfld) in connection with the rising of the Rushy Lake Pond.

Did in fact the Price (Nfld) Company give the minister's department the wrong information? Is this a possibility? ~If.. SPEAilliR: The han. Hinister of Transportation and Communications. _!'TI. t!ORGAN: l 'r. Speaker, the only information that my department recei.vecl from the company concerned, Price (Nflrl) Limited ,was to the effect that the dams were opened in the Middletown area at 2:00 A.l'. the !'1ornin!l of the accident and they expected the crest of that water to reach the Grand Falls area at 2:00 P.M. the same day. That is the only information we received from the company.

Hhether or not the information was correct is something that I cannot ans••er at this time. HR. SPEAKEr.: A supplementary? The han. member for LaPoile. ~·P. NEARY: There is another supplementary, Sir, go a):lead. :m. SPEAKER: It is not a supplementary? The han. member for J,ewisporte. !W.. h'HITE: To the samE> minister, the ~iinister of Transportation and Communications. I am wondering about the activities of Price (Nfld) in all of this and I am very suspicious of their activities and I think they are to blame for a lot of it.

I am wondering if the minister can assure us whether or not his department has veto power over Price (Nfld). Can they raise the dam whenever they want to, just tell you they are going to do it? Or can you say, "No, ~~e want to check this out." I mean, do you have veto power over decisions by Price or "'m they do IYhat they want to,as it seems they can? il£ 68~7

May 6, 1976 Tape 2484 IB-3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communicat1ons. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, my Department of Transportation and Communications does not have the jurisdiction nor the complete control over a company of that size in the Province or in fact any company, not one department. So with regards to what jurisdiction and what control government has in general,l take the question under advisement. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde has a supplementary. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister suggested yesterday that there were barricades placed on the road as well as lights, would the minister like to comment on theeyewitness report that there were no barricades on the road at all,but just a light on the side of the road? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Cbarricade' was an incorrect terminology used by myself in this han. House yesterday,but I clarified, I think, in answering questions later,that the barricade did not mean the road was closed.

Actually by my saying 1barricade' I meant that there were signs, caution signs. They are approximately three foot high and the width,I think,is approximately one foot in width 1 and these caution signs were placed on each side of the

section referred to going in each direction with caut:l.on lights attached to these signs. Now I referred to them as barricades,which was an incorrect terminology. There were caution signs with caution lights. The road maybe could be interpreted by being barricaded as being closed. The road was not closed until after the accident, but the actual caution sign and the caution lights were established at 7:30 P.M. as indicated yesterday in my answering.

May 6, 1971', Tape 2485 PK- 1 Does t!te hon. member for LaPoile(Mr. Ne11.ry) h.1ve il supplemC'n tary? ''ll. Nf.AP.Y: •:n. ----- '"R._ SPfAKET-1: The hnn. Lemler of the Opposition. ~OB~TS: t1 r. Speaker, my question is directed to the l1on. l1 J nister of Provincial Affairs. It grows out of the same unfortunate acci<lent, but it is a little different. Under the Pro vi nci al Aff<lirs and Environment Act,

Section 24 is the relevant one, the minister h:1s tl,e pm~er to approve water works which would jnclude the 1mrk done on the Exploits River. My question, Sir, iR '1'l1ether the minister l•'ould make public by laying on the table of the Jlousr the permit which was granted- I want to say by him as minister. I am not sure whether the present minister was in the Portfolio; or it does not matter, there was a minister there- an<1 the correspondence relating to it, including,in particular, T think this is very relevant, any objections formally or in writing filecl hy the Transportation and Communications Department?

"'R. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. '· !Jl • A • ~'lTRPl!Y : I will check the matter out. As a matter of fact T am quite prepared to do so, because in most cases, and I just s.1y this '"'' '' for the information of the House, when dealing with Hunicipal Affairs or any other groups,we approve something environment~lly as not heing interferring with the environment as such.

Tlut the case of our overruling someone else, I never knew it to happen in any case where it became a danger to a council or anything like that. nut the first paragraph of all our permits s~y that this applies to the environment only and it does not take rffect over any other law as laid down under Municipal Affairs so on ~nd so forth. But I will certainly check the thing out. And as a matter of fact I want to work very closely on this thing 'nth my hnn. c-olleague and Ree just what the whole story is. 1rr.. SPEAKER: f.. supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. !!R.

ROBT:P.TS: l thank thE' minister and I understand he will let -------- the House knm~ whether th j s, you know, the permit itself could be nade - I ~uess it is puh lie;- hut the reports because under the act the

May 6, 1976 Tape 2485 PK- 2 Mr. Roberts: minister has to have information submitted to him, and I have no doubt that was required. But did I understand the minister to say, Mr. Speaker, that the practice which his officials have follo wed, and which heas minister obviously follows, or which they follow in his direction, or whatever way you want to put it, is that they, the Provincial Affairs Department do not overrule another department, In other words, if an9ther department takes a valid objection. to the grant of a permit that that is enough to end the matter.

Because under the act the minister's authority is far beyond that of merely the environment, u he will agree. His auflhority , as I read the legislation, Mr. Speaker, is quite complete, and, you know, the minister gives permits. Nothing can go ahead unless the minister has approven in writing is what

Section 24 says. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Imvironment. MR. MURPHY: My experie;nce, Mr. Speaker, has been the fact ;mci deals primarily with waste disposal sites, this type of thing. But we will say environmentally it is all right to put this site here, but if your council! or whoever it is objects to it, and anyone who has any objections, we do not overrule the111 on it. Ilut this :Is a far more serious thing - MR. ROBERTS: It is a little different, yes. MR.

MURPHY: the implications are very serious, and where it created a hazard, so I will certainly check the whole matter out aad see what the story is on it. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: One further supplementary. One further supplementary. The hon. Leader of Mr. Speaker, growing out of it again. Could the minister also undertake to let us have any correspondence subsequent to - the permit was presumably granted - but when was the dam raised 'Graham' last Fall, that dam was put up on the river; at Rushy Pouu? MR. ROWE: Last Spring. MR. ROBERTS: Last Spring.

You know, any correspondence that has come subsequent to that, because the permit would have been rranted 6860

Tape 2485 PK - 3 !1r. f'oh~rt!~: ------- -·-- hPforr tlte c!nt, ~·.':l s !Ju I 1L, of course. And then subsequent to that Hhcther tl1e minister or his officials have received any representations abnut the potential .hazard Hhich unfortunately has now become a real one'? nrr. SPEAKER: Thr hon. !1inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. ------- ·-- NR. )!1JRPIIY: ------ I '":ill certainly check it all out, Sir • And as I say,in keepi.nr; ~o ith the announcement made by the hon. Minister of Justice and the> minister that there will be an inquiry into it.

I am sure whatever is in the Department of Environment will become 11ery pertinent a part of the. whole on-going inquiry· llR. ROilF.RTS: ------- The inquiry may not be directed to that point. The inquiry- !1R • MURPHY : ------ 1 will see how it fits in anyhow. lffi • SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ------- "R. NF.ARY: !fr. Speaker, just to change the subject for a moment, T "'ould like to asl ~ the " inister of Justice who is responsible for the ll et-~foundland Constabulary why the police are hopping mad about v.'lrious breaches of contract?

Could the minister enliF;hten the House of 1~hat is happe>nin~ thf're in connection with violations of the contract hetwe f' n the government and the Police Brotherhood? '!R. SPf.AKJ\R: The hon. Ni11is ter of Justice. ------ ll01'!_._1'_ • ...0_ J.!fCKl'IAN: Nr. Speaker, I am not in receipt of any evidence t0 in~tcate that the members of the Newfoundland Constabulary are linpping mad . t•H. SPF.t.KER: A supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. A supplementary, Sir. Is the minister aware of tl1c j tern in the morning News indicating that the Police Brotherhood are hopping mad? ' IR.

LUN DRIGIIN : That is out of order. ~!!~~ /I. RY : l.fuat is out of order? ~nilE !ION. ~fEMBERS: Oh, oh! l·f'R • }lEARY: ---- --- D0es the minister not read the newspapers? Has the m1n1ster had any conununications from the Chief of Police that there f 6861.

May 6, 1976 Tape 2485 Mr. Neary: may be grievances as a result of breach of contract? MR. SP£AIC£R: The bon. Hinister of Justice. PK - 4 HR. RICKMAN: Mr. Speaker , I did read the Daily News, and I repeat my prvious answer tbat I am not in receipt of any evidenc e to indicate that the members of the Newfoundland Constabulary are hopping mad. ,..

;•ay (\, l'l76. 1•1:. SJ'MKET:: !f!:. Ronr.r,rs: rm - l The hon. L<'a<ler of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, a question for the Ninister of ~lunicipal Aff:~in;, in his capncity :~s the Chairman of the Cabinet Conunittee, I 1mn1 u assume it i.s, on the Come ny Chance situation. I ask this question in the ahsence of the Premier and in the absence of the liinister of t!;mpat~er and Industrial Relations.

Could the minister tell the House, tlr, Speaker, when the most recent representations which have been made hy representatives of the men at Come By Chance, namely the security 1vorkers and tug boat workers, to the effect that they wanted the - Ml HON. ft ~liiER: Who is the question directed to? MR. ROBERTS: To the Minister of ~lunicipal Affairs. I think he is the relevant man. The point of the representations is to the effect that these two groups of employees, about fifty in all 1 I am told, have not received the $750 golden handshake that the government gave out.

The question is when lvill they get a further answer? As the minister no doubt knows, the Premier met 1vith representatives of the men on Monday morning an<l they ~<ere assured they lvoul c\ have an answer by Tuesday. Today is Thursday and no answer has heen received. tl!',, SPJ:AJ(ER: l·fR. PECKFORD: The hon. Minister of ~lunicipal Affairs. l'r. Speaker, in reply to the Leader of the Opposition's f!11CStion, th<' government's position is that ail the employees of Provincial r.efininp, Company Limited ~li]l be paid the money indicated by the Leader of the Opnosition uhicb is the correct sum of $750.

That is the government's position right no,;·. That is our decision. The other workers mentioned by the T.P.ader of the Opposition 1-1ere not in the opinion of the receiver or of the r,overnment employees of l'rovincial Refining Company Limited. ~'R . SPF.AKEH : A supplementary. The Leader of the Opposition. ~. ROBERTS: A supplementary . Hr. Speaker, I thank the hon. minister for his ans1ver. nut could he make it clear whether this position is the position 1 ~hich the ?,overnment have adopted following the meeting which the Premier had on llonday past Hith representatives of the union. Certainly it was ~; 6863

Hay 6, 1976. Tape 2486 RH - 2 MR. ROBERTS: the position before. But then the union came in and the Premier was kind enough to see them for a few minutes. The Premier undertook to have a further consideration made of this question and a further answer in turn made. Is this position being stated by the minister the result of th~t further study? ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: My understanding of the situation is as I have related it a few minutes ago in answer to the first question.

Any other questions relating to it in which the Premier is involved will have to be directed to the Premier when he returns to the Province. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the fact that the minister, I know he was not at the meeting and he may not have been - I asked the question in the absence of his collertgue. It was the Minister of Industrial Relations who was to get in touch with the men, not the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PECKFORD: I was out of the Province. MR.

ROBERTS: But I just want to be clear on one point, that the position in which he stated is not necessarily the position which resulted from the most recent request made and received in behalf of the government by the Premier. That is really what I want to be clear on. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The hon. Leader is acting like the executive assistant to the Premier. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. NlL PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I can only reiterate what I have already said.

My understanding is that government's position is as I have stated, that we pay the employees of Provincial Refining Company Limited,which has been done, that the other employees who have requested some compensation do ' ' not come under that ami1t as detailed by government. Any subsequent questions would have to be referred to the Premier or other people who were involved at ... 68G·i

Tare 2486 R~ - 3 t!l'. PF(:I:!'f'RO: r' •nt rime. r~nnot ~n~w~r directly therefore the question put to me hv the l.eader of t he Oprositio n. tf'l • lt(ll\!'RTS: effect ? '1R • SPI:N:rll: ~11t YOI1 hnVC heard nothing O( the ' fo nd~ty mePting in I f this is not a supplementary, I recognize the hon . mcmhc;>r for Terr;~ ''ov~ 1~ho '1ns been endeavouring to be recogniz ed for some ti.mt'. ~tP.. 1'. LUSJI: Tltnnk you , ~tr . Sreaker.

A question for the ~finister of 1\,luc:ltion. r wonder lf the ministet: is in a position to inform the House •~hctlocr or not he has received any representation from any school boa rd ln the St. John ' s area respectint; the fact that the St . John's School T~x Authority nprnrently will not collect the revenue which the Authority h:td predic ted i t •~ould ? Boards , of course, have made coiiDllitments on the hnsis of the pro;ected revenue that the Autho rity said it would collect . ~Ill • SPF.AKf.R: Thn hon . "!jnister of f.ducation . 'lr . SpeaJ·.er, I have not recieved it directly as yet.

I <lo not know if i.t is at the department , but it has not reac hed my des k liFo VC't. "IL !,liSt!: A supplementary. till. SPF.AKF.R: ThC' hon . eentleman has a supplementary. ]IT~: T ~<nu olc r if t!l!\ nrlnister is aware that on the hasiR of the f:~ct that the St . Joh n's Sc'1ool TAx Authority will not collect the revenu.e that it projecte <l ,that there a-re school boards in St . John ' s 1~ho •~ill ' only co llnct the amount of ·money this year that they collected f-rom the ten dollnr poll tax ln~t year?

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2487 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Tl,e hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: No, I am not aware of that, Mr. Speaker, but I will attempt to investigate it and apprise the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER:~ The hon. member for LaPoile and after him the hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the President of Treasury Board, the Minister of Finance, Sir, confirm or deny the fact that the negotiations with NAPE for a general agreement for the workers in the public service that the talks are now at a standstill and that a strike vote is now being taken? ~m.. SPEAKER: The hon.

Hinister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I was half listening to the Leader of the Opposition, the official Opposition. MR. NEARY: }fit. DOODY: Give us a progress report on the statements from - This is a very difficult position, Sir, because the negotiations with the general service sector and with the liquor store employees have been in a state of, I guess, limbo or flux or what have you since the employees of the union went on strike asking for working conditions and salaries and so on which the union were unwilling to grant to their employees.

And this has placed the negotiating committee of Treasury Board in a rather difficult position because they have not been able to sit down and discuss things with the NAPE people who are on strike against NAPE. Mr. Locking and his people in NAPE find it quite embarrassing because they do not have the staff to supply the backup and even to the stenographic level, the typing level that is necessary. And so we have been just treading water as it were and waiting for these people to come forward and continue to negotiate.

The current status is that the last position that was on the table is still there, and we are still waiting for NAPE to get itself back into a position to be able to talk to us. We need to get that internal situation resolved, which is a problem between the Labourers' Union. which Mr. C:oodland repre,;ents ,;· 686fi

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2487 Page 2 - mw Xr. Doody. as business aeent,and NAPE,who presumably is represented by Hr, Lockin~ and hi~ people. That internal problem has really to be strait;htened out before we can get our negotiations with the public service really underway. We are quite prepared, willing and anxious and able to get into it. What happens Hithin the unions them!;lelves, of course, is something that we cannot control, nor would be want to. It certainly is not within our ambit. We sympathize with Hr. Locking's position. We have gone through it ourselves on many occasions.

We have seen people go on strike, and we regretted it and felt sorry. And this is the first time that I have l~d a chance to publicly sympathize with NAPE for the position in which they find themselves. ?IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Do I understand from the minister that there is no stand-off at the moment on the part of the union, that negotiations would still be continuing but for the strike at the NAPE. offices, that the government have made a substantial nffer to NAPE and that negotiations could continue but for this strike? is taking now?

Is that the position the minister HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: No. The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in his •usual , inimitable and delightful fashion has built several assumptions and presumptions and allegations and statements of fact,which are in error,into his question,which was really a

preamble to an argument. What he said was MR. NEARY: Turn around and talk to me and face me. I can lip read. MR. DOODY: Can you not hear me? I address my remarks to the Speaker. I think that is in order, is it not? SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . ~ G8G7

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2487 Page ] - row MR. SMALLWOOD: ~directly to the Speaker. MR. DOODY: I do. He is delightful. Have you not admired the Speaker? MR. SMALLWOOD: You can address the Speaker without looking at him. MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is the tradition. MR. DOODY: I would prefer, Sir, with great respect - MR. LUNDRIGAN: A long standing tradition. MR. SMALLWOOD: No,it is not. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Absolutely! AN HON. MEMBER: Do not argue with him. MR. DOODY: I would like to answer your question. _!!R. NEARY: Well,is the minister ready to give the answ~r? !ill..

DOODY: Yes, I will now try to answer the question having had the benefit of the advice fro1..1 various other sections of the Assembly. I would prefer to look at Nr. Speaker than look at the han. member for LaPo:Ue (Ur. Neary), and it is just a =t t er of choice. ~m.. SMALLWOOD: Did you decide that rule over the long weekend7 MR. DOODY: No, no certainly not. If ever I get an opportunity to look at you, I certainly wi~l. You - I am sorry, the han. member for Twillingate (Mr.Smallwood),P.C., ex-Premier of the Pro~ince. The situation is that there is a posilion on the table.

There is a negotiating position on the table, there is a negotiating position being discussed between the representatives of NAPE and the representatives of government, the Tr~asury Board negotiators. That position is sitting there. Whether it is substantial or not depends on the attitude of the two groups involved. What might mean something substantial to me may not be substantial to the people who are in other areas of society. So that is really a term that I would not want to quantify or argue, Now the offer that is ;~ 68(j~

:tay 6, 1976 ~lr . Doody. Tape no. 24!17 Page 4 - IJIW o n t he t al,le from Treasury Board and the counteroffer that is on the tabl e (rom •:Art: is certainly not someth ing that 1 alii goi.ng to clis cuss in this Chamber for public con sumption because that woulc! ouvio usly neg;lte t he whole bargaining process . NAPE would nol nee d an e xecutive and Treasury noard would not need a negotiatins

section or a bargaining sec tion ; we could do the whole thing here publicly through the media. That would make ~ GSG!'l ·.

May 6. 1976 Tape No. 2488 MR. DOODY: a great deal more controversy and I am sure it will sell a few more newspapers and create a great deal more interest in the consumption of the public as regards the media. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The thirty minutes has expired. MR. DOODY: Has it already? MR.· SPEAKER: Already. MR. DOODY: I was trying to answer the bon. member. MR. SPEAKER: By leave the bon. gentleman may continue but - MR. CROSBIE: A great speech. 000 NM' - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the bon.

House Leader, if there are no further notices to be given to me with respect to the procedure at five-thtrty,then I would announce the three now and then not have to interrupt the Committee and there being no indication to the contrary then I take it that there are no further notices to be given me and I will then - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: With all respect and while I do not have the standing order in front of me, 32, as I recall it we as members have until four-thirty and I wonder if perhaps Your Honour is not unw±ttingly foreclosing some options on us. It may well be that upon consultation one or two of my colleagues might wish upon mature reflection to submit to Your Honour a notice and perhaps then Your Honour might wish to wait. I suggest that only because otherwise Your Honour might find yourself in Your Honour's embarrassing position of having to rethink Jour Honour's honourable decision. MR.

SPEAKER: Actually the reason I put it was to ask hon. members if in fact they *ished to submit any further ones or to ke~p their ~ 6870

May 6. 1976 Tape No, 2488 NM- 2 MR. ST'EAKF.R: option open and,as the bon. Leader of the Opposition suggests that he or his colleagues wish to leave that option open uatil four-thirty and that of course is entirely their ril!;ht. ORDERS OF THE DAY : On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The bon. Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, when we adjourned Tuesday evening I was in the process of responding to some of the remarks made by the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), and I was about to get into the discussion with regard to occupational health which was raised by the member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rideout). Before I turn to the occupational health side of the debat~ I would want to make some reference to another item touched on by the member for LaPoile and that was what is the government's position with regard to putting hospitals under boards of managment, hospital hoards. And I would like to say, Mr.

Chairman, that I think the record of this government is a most admirable one in that regard in that one of the first hospitals I think which we moved on in terms of taking it out of the Department of Health system in terms of direct operation and putting it under a board was the James Paton ~emor.ial Hospital in Gander.

And as a consequence of that,the eottage hospital -Gander, of course, was a cotta~e hospital prior to that- the cottage hospitals in Fogo and in Brookfield in Bonavista B*y, while we have not established boards for those, those two hospitals come under the board of management of the Gander Regional Hospital and of course there is representation on that board from all the communities normally served by the Fogo and Brookfield Cottage Hospitala. And indeed from the medical district of Eastport, Glovertown and that area. IJe have

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2489 Page 1 - mw Mr. H. Collinsj continued to implement that policy. The most recent hospital to come under a board of management is the hospital at Springdale, which was a cottage hospital. It is now under a Board of Governors. MR. SMALLWOOD: Springdale is now run by a Board of Governors1 MR. H. COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman MR. SMALLWOOD: Since how long? MR. H. COLLINS: It is one of the first boards which I appointed, about four or five months ago. MR..

SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. minister allow me to ask, because I have my own personal recollection being that the children's hospital, the Janeway 1 was being run by a board appoint~d by the government, and I think perhaps the General to some limited extent, and the hospital at Baie Verte, run by the Salvation Army and the one at - MR. H. COLLINS: United Church. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. B COLLINS: MR. SMALLWOOD: Pardon?

Baie Verte - United Church• Oh, United Church, - and the one at Labrador City by the Salvation Army, these government hospitals, now the minister tells me that Springdale is run by a government appointed board - is it? And what about Twillingate? Is that not alae? What others are there, if any, government hospitals? MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, Springdale, as I said, was put under a Board of Management and the members appointed by the government about four or five months ago. That ia the most recent one, I think, that was put under a Board of Governors or an established hospital board.

With regard to Twillingate, as the bon. Premier knows, or he might have forgotten it, but I will refresh his memory, that hospital was known as the Notre Dame Bay Memorial Hospital. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, yes. MR. COLLINS: And they operated from an association point of view. MR. SMALYWOOD: Yes. . '1: 6872

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2489 Page 2 - mw MR. H. COLLINS: Now, of course, the people there made a great contribution towards the establishment of that hospital, hoth from a point of view of capital investment and certainly from the point of operating it; because I can remember, and I am sure the hon. member for Fogo (Capt. Winsor) can remember years ago when,prior to Confederation, the greatest amount of the funds which were collected to operatelthat hospital were in the form of donations of fish, of potatoes, sacks of potatoes or cabbages or anything which a person could give. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Did the hon, minister himself contribute at that time? MR. H. COLLINS: I have often collected with my father for that particular endeavour, Now the new hospital in Twillingate will, I hope, be operated under a board under the ~spital's Act. However, we are negotiating with the existing association at Twillingate. As I indicated to the han. member from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) a few days ago, some officials from my department - I do not know if they are there now, but I · think they might be there now- are convening meetings with the members of the Notre Dame Bay Memorial Hospital Association towards trying to find the best means to establish a board or whatever for that particular institution. I might also add, Mr. Chairman, that in the case of the new hospital at Carbonear that we have reached an agreement that that hospital ~11 be put under a Board of Governors.

There will be a Board of Governors established , and I am not sure if we have notified the people yet of the make-up of the board, but that is well in hand, and within a few days that board will be established. All the necessary preliminary work has been done. And it is certainly our policy, Mr. Chairman, to continue establishing boards where possible. It is not something which we want to push or do too quickly. It takes time because I think in the first place there is a lot to be said for having the input of the people at the local scene. On the other hand, ~ 6873

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2489 Page l - mw MR. H. COLLINS: it is important also that we get the right people , and I am sure that that remark will not be misinterpreted - that we do get the right people involved, the best people we can find, who will be able to provide the type of leadership which is necessary but in co-operation with government and do a better job than the government itself could do. That is the name of the game. Now, Mr. Chairman, with regard to occupational health. My friend the member for Baie Verte -White Bay (Mr.

Rideout) raised the question, and I can appreciate why he raised it because, of course, he represents the town of Baie Verte or the town of Baie Verte is in his riding. He and I have had several discussions with regard to the dangers of asbastosis in Bale Verte. It is a very emotional issue, and it is one which we are not trying to hide anything from public view or anything like that, but I think it is something that has to be dealt withas carefully as we can. The hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) made some reference to that particular problem,in reading some excerpts from various newspapers around the world which indicates, of course, that not only is occupational health a concern of the Newfoundland Government, but it is the concern of just about every jurisdiction throughout the world. I know at the most recent meeting of the federal health ministers which I attended in Ottawa about two weeks ago v 687~

l'ny (,, 1976 Tape 2490 IB-1 !'T'. 11. C:OLLH\S : that was one of the major topics on the agenda. It is receiving a p;reat deal of attention and it requires a great deal of attenti,on. Tt rPqu:lres a r,r,at c1eal of research and expertise and so on which sometimes it is difficult for a Province the size of Newfoundland to be able to do on its own. I think we have convinced the federal ~overnment now - I might say twe> do not mean Newfoundland only but alJ the provinces - that the federal government indeed has a role to play. But, ~'r.

Chairman, perhaps I should indicate to the House or in form the House what we have been doing ourselves. Last Fall we established a Division of Occupational Health in the Department of Health. We appointed Dr. Colo han, who is very much an expert in this particular field, as a director of that division. Subsequent to his appointment Dr. Colohan was sent overseas to Great Britian, to London,where he underwent some three or four monthA of study in the fielc1 of occupational health. I might say that the doctor had many conversations with health people in the British mi.nistry.

And as I mentioned earlier, their problems are not too different from ours. But he did go there. He has returned and right now, I might say, he is attending another meeting which has been called on a national basis at Chalk River somewhere in Ontario, anyway not too far from Toronto. He is up there this week and should be returning towards the end of this week. So ~ore are trying to expose him to all of the information whi.ch is available and there is a wealth of it, there are mountains of it,and there nre different opinions of course which is to be expected where merl:l cal or technical opinions are to be found.

But ••hat I am try:l.ng to say here is that this government has recognized the need for tlw establishment of some expertise in this part:! cular d:lrection. Now, l'r. Chairman, we are certainly not sati.sfied with that. During the past three or four months the Minister of }fines and Energy, who has some jur:lsidiction and responsibilities in this particular ~ 6875

May 6, 1976 Tape 2490 IB-2 }'R, H.

COLLINS : field, the ~inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment,who also has by legislation some jurisdiction and responsibility in the field of occupational health and safety, the !· ~in is ter of l'anpo·~·er and Industrial Relations obviously would have some jurisdiction . and certa:f.nly a great interest and responsiblity in the field, not only because the l~orkmens Compensation Board reports to government through him hut also because of the very nature of that department, He decideri some months ago that this was so important, especially in view of the fact that the unions feel quite strongly about it·· and rightly so; we certainly agree with the unions 1 thoughts on it - we agreed to establish a committee, a working committee of officials from the four departments,and after the officials had done their work then the four ministers of the departments to wMch I referred would sit down and see what is the best approach to take to this problem to deal with it quickly, to deal with :It effectively and,please,goodness deal with the problem successfully. is still functioning.

That committee }ly friend and my seat-mate here, the hon. llinister of l'anpower and Industrial P.elations,only a couple of weeks ago went to Saskatchewan to see first-hand what had been happening there. lve founcl that ~anitoba had already taken some very hold steps in the directions to bring about the improvements to which I have referred. Saskatchewan was about to do the same thing. That is, ~r.

Speaker, to try and find ways and means of bringing all of the responsibilities, all of the areas of jurisdiction with regard to occupational health and safety under one umbrella of a department, an agency or a commission or whatever. l"R.. SMALLWOOD: In the Department of Health? }'R., H. COLLINS: Well that, }'r. Chairman, we have not decided yet. ~ 687f,

:'ay 6, 1976 Tape 2491 IB-1 ~11 . JT. rm.t TNS: •lnr of the prohJ ems in dealing with occupational health ancl safety i ~ that there is !<Uch a fragmentation of responsiblity and .1urisdiction hy l.eg:lsl~ttion,and hy interest too,of course,where Mines and Energy, Nanpower and Industrial !'!.elations, Provincial Affairs and Environment and Health all have some responsibilities. There has not been so far any regulations issued to my knowledge by the Department of Health, although there are provisions in the Health Department's legislation for that.

The regulations concerning standards and so on have always heen issuerl to my knowledge by :Mines and Energy. I believe Prov:f.ncial Affairs and Environment might have issued some. But the Departl'\ent of Health has always acted in the cnp:\city as n professional aclvi.sor to the other departments, the other m:lni~ters. In terms of estahJishing TLVs - I presume hon. members l·nm~ l<Th<lt 1: mean hy TLVs ~ that is, Threshold Limit Values - which ~~tahlishes the amount of dust which can be tolerated in any particular T"ine or a m:IJJ or area.

He have been doing that and we are not ~'ltisfied,of course,with the levels which have been establisherl. I believe in the case of Baie Verte that the TLVs are being ac1hered to. I think it is fair. to say there has been some improvement down there. I mn still not satisfied in my own mind that the TLVs eRtahlished are adequate and that is something which we are looking at now through nr. Calahan. So -.mat I am saying, ~~r. Chairman, is that this government is very much aTVare of the consequences which might occur, you know, the conse<]uences c1o~m the road, and we are moving as soon as we can.

I can rive th:ls col!ll11ittee my Horn and the assurance of all of us that He ~re moving as <Juicl~-Y as we can,and I believe that in the not too c'i st:mt fnt11re, :In fact in a matter of months, we will he in a position to find the necessary staff which I think we are going to need as a l'ackup to nr. Colohan anrl to get the whole bit and piece put under some u~brell'l,whether,as I said,it is Health,or Yanpower and Industrial Pelations,or ~'1nes and Energy,or a separate agency or a commission ,. 6877

Hay 6, 1976 Tape 2491 MR. H. COLLINS: or whatever. But put the whole thing to bed properly from an organizational point of view and then get on quickly with the job wh:l.ch is necessary to be done. Ml'.. SMALLTtiOOD: T,'hen that is done it will cover such places as St. Lawrence, Labr;~.dor City, the City of T<abush, Baie Verte and so on? ~IR. H. COI.LINS: Yes, "r. r.ha:l.nnan, not onl v Ba:l e Verte. T was IB-2 referdng to Ba:l.e Verte because that is the most recent problem which has been raised.

But certainly the Iron Ore Company of ranada which is operating at Labrador City has been of some concern to us down through the years and they are doing a good job to bring about the improvements which are desirable. But all of the areas. And I might say, Mr. Chairman, that today ~men one looks at occupational health we are not only think:lng in terms of the mines and the mills where asbestos and iron ore and - St. Lawrence, what we we m:l.ne in St. Lawrence? AN HON. Jo'E}IBE'R: Fluorspar. MR. H. COLLINS: Fluorspar, the Fluorspar.

Not only are ~·e interested in those areas but the aerosol spraying devices today and the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) mentioned yesterday when he was talking about asbestos the exposure of mechan:l.cs ,for instance, in garages where they are dealing \·lith the brake line on the wheels of a car. Nobody knows for sure what the dangers are there.

Certainly there is asbestos fiber,and asbestos fiber is the problero wh:lch ,,,e are talking about and that is not only present in the mine where it is mined but it is also present in any area where it is ~anufactured into other products or in any area where workmen are workinR on the manufactured product. So it is a great wide field and something which al 1 jurisdictions are concerned about and are clo:lng what they can to find answers to. As I say, ~·r. r.ha:lrman, it :1 s a very emotional :Issue, or can be made a very emotional issue. Sometimes then the wrong ~ G87R

Hay 6, 1976 Tape 2491 IB-3 ~·R. H. COLT.INS: information might be made available to people and we prefer not to do too much of that. In the meantime,the hon. member for Baie Verte-V.'hite Bay (l'r. Rideout) mentioned also or made reference to the water supply, the condition of the water supply at Baie 1!erte. And there ~•as some 1•ork done last Fall and last To/inter. There is work being done now by my bon. colleague's department, Provincial Affairs and Environment, towards that end.

This is an area ~•here while there has been a lot of knowledge accumulated over the years and a lot of good advise available now in terms of establishing TLVs where asbestos fiber or whatever would have some effect on the respiratory system, there is no information available anywhere to indicate what the damages might be in terms of ingesting asbestos fibers in our water and in our food. When nr.

Colohan was in England this Baie Verte situation came to light and we immediately got in touch with him by telephone to see what he could discover in England what people knew about asbestos in water supplies and what would he the tolerances, you know, what standards had been established. He could find no information over there at all. They were aware that there might he a problem but the Bri tf.sh }'inistry of Health could not give us any information any more than we had ourselves. 'fl'.

SVALLWOnn: If the hon. gentleman will allow me: '!'he information in the United Kingdom apparently is not to be gotten in the T1epartment of Health. 1\nd if that is the only source tapped by the doctor who ~•ent over it is too bad. There are other departments that have specific responsibility and they are not the nepartment of Health. The very 11uotations J gave from these clippings here - when was :l.t, yesterday, last night? - referred to quite other departments of the British p:ov<'rnment altogether. It would be well worth-while tapping those sources. 'lR. H. COLLINS: Maybe, ¥r.

Chairman, I should have said that the nritish Government were of no help to us not the nepartment of Health. ~· 6879

May 6, 1976 Tape 2491 IB-4 MP. • H. COLLINS : That was slip of the tongue. The British Government have no information which is useful information. We have gone to the United States Government, we have gone to the \·Jorld Health Organization, and of course we have gone to our own federal government. Now all of those organizations are now - and of course we did not bring it on, they were doing it before - but they are all doing research. But nobody can tell us at this particular time whether 1 million litres per pound of asbestos fibers in a water supply is really dangerous.

Certainly from an aesthetic point of view or from any point of view one would be concerned about drinking water with a considerable amount of asbestos fiber in it. But nobody knows exactly ~rhat safe limits there might or might not be. But there is being work clone on this,and we are in on the ground floor with the organizations which I just mentioned and as more information becomes available we will certafnly be passing it along to the people. MR. SMALLWOOD: The minister is actively and anxiously concerned? MR. H. COLLINS: Yes, very much so. MR. SHALLHOOD: And hunting whatever information he can get? MR. H.

COLLINS: Fight. And the federal government have given us a commitment as well because - t'R. SMALL\<IOOD: The Government of Canada. ¥R. H. COLLIN~: - they crun get information sometimes from a national point of view which is difficult from a little Province like Newfoundland. So }fr, Lalonde has agreed and we have a working committee in fact - MP .• 1-ll:JRPHY: Even if there were no mining we have more areas containing asbestos. And still we find it in different parts all over the Peninsula. ~!R. H. COLLINS: Yes.

For the information of the House I might say that the testing which was done at Baie Verte-I think tests were also done at Fleur de Lys and Coachman's Cove and Seal Cove and down in Burlington and ¥iddle Arm in Green Bay, in Badger and Grand Falls and came as far East as Gander Lake. In fact there is some work G880

l'ay (,, 1976 Tape 21...91 IB-5 HR . 11. COLL tNS : '\l'ing clone no•• in W)nclsor Lake t believe just to try and see if there fs any pnttern. But since there is such a dearth of jnf~rmation nvn11nhlc n«"borly knOt-'~ whether the contamination is due to the - you l:nnw H it is n:ttnral contamination from the mineral in the noil or do<>thcr H ito ront;uninat:lon by v:lrtue of the movemP.nt around by winds of th<' fihcr~< from the mine site and the mill .

At any rate T can asf;ure the hon. me!'lber who represents thnt nren that evervth1ng possible is bein~ done, no stone left unturned to try nnd estnbJjsh what the dangers are. If there are any inherent cl.'lnr,ers.then measures will be taken to correct them. "r. ~rcnk<'T, T hel1rve thnt ~ust about covers the many remarks ~~ich were ~nrle. t mir,ht say that t appreciate very much the contribution which ll'Y friend, the wcl'lher.- r.he lawyers always say my learned friend, my · ,. G881

May 6, 1976 Tape No. 2492 NM- 1 MR. COLLINS: doctor friend from St. John's South (Dr. Collins) - MR. SMALLWOOD: Scholarly friend. MR. COLLINS: My doctor friend from St. John's South and my doctor friend from Mount Scio (Dr. Windsor), two great contributions which were made by them on Tuesday night. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, since we are in Committee we of course can speak - MR. NEARY: I stood up first. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, the minister has given us some honied words and we have listened to those with interest,but I think there are a number of points that bear us some further repetition and there are some new ones.

Let me begin by saying to the minister now1 or asking him now if he would arrange so that we can have them-he will need them in an hour or so when we get around to the point - to get the contracts between the government and the Scrivener firm for the Health Sciences Complex and the Carbonear Complex because he is responsible, the votes are in his estimates and there are a number of questions which my colleagues and I wish to ask, Sir, with respeet to the matters.

They relate in point or in part to the contracts,and while I do not tnow whether the contracts were entered into by the Minister of Health or jn his behalf,or whether they were entered into by the Minister of Public Works and Services or on his behalf 1 I do not really care because they were entered into by the government on one hand and the Scrivener firm on the other hand. And, Sir, there is evidence to suggest there is something very, very wrong with the whole proceedings over there. And I propose to ask some questions in Committee and depending upon the GS82

'~av 6, 1971i Tape No. 2492 NM- 2 'IR. ROBERTS: minister's answers we will see where we go from there. So T merely mention that now in the hope that his officiPls whom r :uummc PT"<' within earshot,or perhaps the ~cting Minister of Public Works who hzs nipped out for a cigarette, could arrange to have these documents brought up so they are here in the Committee .. I do not want the minister to be unarmed for the debate.

I do not "ant h1m to have to say that he is not aware or he does not have the information here, I serve notice now, Sir, that we will be raising questions and I serve notice that we expect to be given answers as to material in these contracts, And I say that very stronr,ly, Sir, because again depending upon the answers to some ~uestfons there is evidence to suggest very grave impropriety and T hasten to say it does nbt involve the minister, nor does it involve the Minister of Public l\Torks, nor does it involve any of the Minister of Health's predecessors but very, very serious matters which must be discussed and which I propose to discuss before I . for one vote the minister's salary.

But before we come to that, Mr. Chairman, before we come to thRt I would like to say a few words about asbestosis and asbestos related hazards at the Baie Verte mine,and I would like to say those words because I listened to what the minister said now when he spoke at the beginning of the Committee study this aftern~on and although I did ~ot have the opportunity to hear my colleague and friend from Raie Verte - l~ite Bay (Mr. Rideout),who I gather made a magnificent speech, a most admirable presentation the other night - MR. SMALLWOOD: He10r: Hear: MR.

ROBERTS: and I did not hear his speech but I have been briefed on it and told about it and the minister's reply is most unsatisfactory. Now, Hr. Chairman, I could say a lot of things about asbestosis and the problems which I fear are arising at Baie Verte. Most of them have be~n:said in this House before, most of them have been said in the Committee before although they have not been said this year. ~ 6883

May 6, 1976 Tape No. 2492 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: The facts in essence, as I understand them, are that most people now concede quite readily that there is at least a potential hazard caused by asbestos. Some of us would go fiurther than that,but it would be common ground,! believe,with anybody who is the least bit aware of the facts that there is certainly a potential hazard and the question then comes,what should be done about it? The obvious thing to do about it, Mr.

Chairman, of course is to get some ex~erts, some acknowledged experts to make a study of the Baie Verte project, the Baie Verte mine, to SPe exactly what the hazard is and when we know what it is then ~•e seek expert ·advice as to what should be done. Well I say, Sir, that this is what the minister has not done, and I say further, Sir, that the minister in my view has been negligent and uncaring, that he has not made any effort, indeed he is trying his best to hamper at least one effort that is under way to look into the asbestos related situation at Baie Verte and to get to the bottom of it.

And I thin~, Sir, the mini•ter should hang his heat in shame with his conduct in this matter. MR.. MURPHY: Wrong. MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Provincial Affairs says, "Wron!(," and I shall bring out the facts. MR. MURPBY : Wrong. Wrong. Wrong • Wrong • Wtong • "!ffi.. MURPHY: That is a criminal accusation. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to begin with I would ask, Sir, if it is in order for the Minister of Provincial Affairs to say that anything is a criminal accusation I have made. Mr.

Chairman I ask for a ruling on that point and then I shall proceed to submit the evidence which I would wish to lead in support of my contention that the ~linister of Health, Sir, has behaved shamefully in this whole question of the asbestos hazards at Baie Verte. MR. MURPHY: Wrong. MR. ROBERTS: Rut first of all, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Provincial Affairs distinctly said that I had acted in a criminal fashion and I would ask Your Honour, Sir, to rule whether that is in order or :'- 688.'t

Tape No. 2492 NM- 4 lffi. ROBERTS: not. I submit that it is not in order,and if it is not in order J would ask that the gentleman from St. John's Centre (Mr. ~lurphy), the minister, be requested to withdraw the statement and I would further request, Mr. Chairman, that he he directed to observe the rules of the Collllhittee and to listen in silence and when his turn comes to speak, Sir, if he wishes to speak of course he has exactly the same right as do 1 ·or anv other member and I will gladly listen to whatever - ~R. MURPHY: There is a ruling- ;m. ROBFRTS: Mr. C:hairman, there he goes ap,ain. AN HON.

MEMBER : He is very touchy. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, he is very touchy today. MR. MURPHY: There was a ruling that said - ~m. ROBERTS : He is very touchy today, Mr. Chairman, and I say to the minister - Mr. Chairman, I ask Your Honour to direct the mi.nister's attention to the rules of the Committee which say that the member s~eaking has the right to be heard without interruption, subject only to the rir;ht to raise a ?Oint of order or a point of nrivilege or some other parliamentary procedure 1 and I further ask, Mr.

C:hairman, that we have a ruling on the auestion of whether the minister is in order to bring up this business about nlJer,Pdly criminal statements. I have made no statement of any_ criminal matter. I have made a statement that I believe the minister has been yravely derelict in his ministerial responsibility and I believe that to be true. I know that to be true. But may I have a ruling, Sir? ~R. CHAT~~l: Order, please! I understand the hon.

House Leader haR raised a noint of order and has spoken to the ?Oint of order and I am pwepared to give a ruling unless there are other comments healinp, on this that should be made. It is from 'Beauchesne page 130, hee~dinp: 154, subheading (3), "The imputation of bad motives, the accusation of misrepresentation charging with falsehoods or 6885

May 6, 1976 Tape No. 2492 NM- 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: deceie'and also under 155, subheading (4) such phrases that a member has been detected in the grossest practice of corruption. These types of terms are considered to be unparliamentary and I would therefore ask the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs if he would reconsider what I am sure are just hasty remarks and withdraw so that there will not be any suggestion that he was being unparliamentary in ~egard to the hon. Leader of tae Opposition! s remarks. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman if I may and in view of your ruling perhaps the word criminal is not the word that I l!hould have used, perhaps it was malicious, nasty, and not at all fair or decent, Sir. And I withdraw the wor~ criminal. MR. NEARY: Do not forget 'rude.' MR. MORGAN: It was indeceney on the part of the Leader of the Opposition. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I submit the only thin~ that is indecent, Sir, is the way in which the minister and his colleagues are - MR. NEARY: Do not be nasty. MR. ROBERTS: 1-l"r. Chairman, the member for LaPoile (Hr.

Neary) will have to do his best to restrain himself as well. I realize that that is a struggle but let him •ry. MR. NEARY: Rude, nasty,, ignorant! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I was saying that the only indecent thing is the way in which the Minister of Health and the ministry as a whole, the governrnent,have ignored this problem, have refused to help the one concrete effort that is underway. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, om a point of order. MR. eHAI~~: A point of order has been raised. MR. MURPHY: When a member here makes an allegation that ~' 6881)

Hay li, ]<:)7~ Tape 2493 PK - 1 some one here makes an allegation that some one has ignored and heinr; neglectful of his duties,! think the hon. Leader of the Opposition should be asked to withdraw it. SOME !!ON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR • ROBERTS : To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. HR • MURPHY : Just a moment! Let the Chairman decide, please! I!R. ROBERTS: I propose to let the Chairman decide. I merely ask to be allowed to make a remark or so which the Chairman inevitably does. Hr. Chairman, to that point of order - rm. CIT !I TRMAN: The point of order is under discussion. "!R. ROBERTS: Thank you!

To that point of order, Mr. Chairman, the remarks I made are so clearly in order that only the gentleman from St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy) could fail to appreciate that fact. MR. MURPliY: I have only been here seventeen years so naturally I must not l<:no~> anything about correct behaviour. ~'!R. ROBERTS: To say, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentleman knows about r;ood behaviour he is failing to observe the first rule which is not to interrupt the gentleman who has the floor. Mr.

Chairman, the remarks are perfectly in order, to say that the ministry is ignoring a problem, Sir, is, I mean, it ~s so in order that only the gentleman from St. John's Centre could think it was not. It is the essence of debate, Sir. ~m. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I understand that a true point of order has not being raised. That these are matters of different

interpretation by hon. members. I would ask the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to continue his remarks. I'R. ROBERTS: Thank you. Now, Mr. Chairman, as I was saying the ministry in my view !-,,ve ignored this problem, and having ignore it despite repeated ••arnings, and have ignored it despite public co111111itments made not !>y - /1 N !ION. MEHRER: Not by a member. '•! 6887

May 6, 1976 Tape 2493 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS : Yes, by a member, by a minister. The gentleman was still a minister~! believe 1 at a time it was made. Now, Sir, the abestosis problem has been discussed many times in this House. I do not have all of the references here, but it came up, I believe I raised it, some of my colleagues might have raised it as 1o1ell on the Health Department estimates in 1973 and again in 1975, last year. Last year there ~ms a fairly m:lnor bill amending the Hines Safety Act.

The gentleman from LaPoile made quite an eloquent and a very good speech about asbestosis then, and I made a speech then about the asbestosis problem, other hon. members did. We got some response from the then Minister of Health, Dr. Gus Rowe, who of course is no longer a member by his bwn choice, arid by the then Hinister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Leo Barry, who is no longer a member, but that is not his choice, that was the choice of the electors in the district of Burin-Placentia West. And at that time we were assured that steps were being taken and we have had the same assurances now twelve months later, Mr.

Chairman, and no more than that has been done by the minister or by any of his colleagues. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. Murphy: It is not true! It is not true! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman says "Not true". Let him be quiet, let him be quiet, Sir, let him hear · the facts, and then let the facts speak for themselves. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman from St. John's Centre is doing his very best, his very best, Sir, to try to provoke scenes and types of debate that are not in keeping with this House or what he professes to believe. I am making statements, I submit, that are in order.

The hom gentleman might not like them, but the way to handle that, Sir, is for him when his turn comes to stand in his place and speak his mind and put his points and then we will see what happens. Now, Mr. Chairman, as I was saying the matter has been raised in this House, and we have had a response that I can only call lip service, no more than lip service. And we have had thP s:unc lip service now today although from a different set of lips tkm a yeRr '" 688S

Tape 2493 PK - 3 f''IRt, hecausp of course we now have a new Minister of Health. And fl(· is Rayinr, thr- same tired cliches, the same excuses for inaction thnt we hcnrd from his predecessor, Dr. Rowe, and it is not good C'nough. The problel'l continues to grow. And there is no doubt, Sir, th:1t there is rt significant risk to the health of the men at Baie "erte, that they are being exposed to that risk. And the government, Sir, are not doing anything at all to try and determine whether the risk I>; unavoidrtble, ~~hether the risk can be reduced 1or whether in fac:t the riRk Rhould be eliminated entirely.

I! ow let me Just touch upon a number of points. First of nJl, Sir, let mf' show you how this ministry break their solemn word ruh.ltclv. I hrtvr here, Sir, a transcript of the CTV programme W-5 :mrl 1 t '''aR thE' shoH "hich was shown on the national network on ~<'PtE'mhE>r 21, l<J75. I believe that is a Sunday night, is it? It comeR on the national net,.ork, I do not believe it is shown live here, T thinl ' 1 t comes in on videotape on a day or two later. One d;.y J ater wy friend frC!tn Lewisporte (~1r.

Hhite) who is expert in thPRe watters and many others tells me that was shown here in this Provine:<' on the 21th. or the 22nd. day of September last Fall, Many fH?op] e here ,;;m it. ~lo•r, Sir, part of the show, a great part of the nror;rR1'11"e luH~ to do w:l th the Baie Verte mine. And if we wish we could read the whole transcript, but I do not think that is particularly TlE'C<"RRary. Pell I vTOuld be happy to if the minister '~auld like it. T ,,,ent to Rome trouble to get it. 'Ill. TlOODV: ·- --- The same people who did the seal htmt? 'Ill. ROllFRTS: ------ 'lo, it is a different people.

It is the same people r'111t thf' hnn. P<'ntleman referred to in a letter he sent my colleague ~s hc>1ng very ~nod people, and so they are. The study referred to l , ~d to do Hith nne carried out hy Dr. Robert }~ornan, a gentleman ·~hom T ilo not knOT·'~', hut whn is from the University of Toronto Medical Faculty. rr ...,,rrien out a stuny at the request of the Steelworkers Union. The Not the government: The government have not lifted a hand to help those ;t 688~1

May 6, 1976, 1-'R. RORF.RTS: MR. COLLINS: MR. ROBERTS: •m. MURPHY: Tape 24~'3 men in Baie Verte. 'l~e have co-operated. His co-operation, my foot! The hon. member - 'PI( 4 }!R. ROBERTS: "My foot has done more for the pPople in llaie uerte on t his asbestosis than all the hon. p,entleman' s co-·operation. llut in anv event Dr. Robert ~~organ, "fr. Chairman, - Dr. Robert }!organ ap;reen to do a study for the Steehmrkers Union. I am not sure ~•hether it ~·ras the - was it the International or the Local?

But in any event the Stee]HorkP.rs Tlnion which is the bargaining agent certified in respect of the men 1-~ho work in the mine at Baie Verte. Dr. Morgan examined the merlical records of more than thirty of the senior workers of the plant, and 'senior' in that context, Sir, does not mean manap.ement, 'senior' means seniority in terms of years of service. nr. Horgan's - HR. MURPHY: day. HR. ROBERTS: The hon. member went through the whole thi.np. the other It could be. We are goin~~: through :It ag:d.n becaus e t'rtP. minister apparently is not able to appreciat<' it, and certainly is not able to respond to it. MR.

MURPHY: The hon. the Leader of the llflposition clid not hear tl1e speech the other day, so he has to go through it again. MR. ROBERTS: That is ril?;ht! Rut I l•now ~•hat mv colleague 1•ent throup,h! And I feel we must go through it, and ''e shall p:o throurh it agai.n, and again, and again until ~1e get some indication of significant and substantial action. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: The transcript goes on, and this is ~iss Carol Tay]or or Ms. Carol Taylor speaking, she is moderator on that programme, ro<'S on, "Dr.

Morgan's assistant, noug Snider, administered pulmon«nt functi on tests which measure the lungs capacity to tal:e in :mn exhale .1.i r." ThPn apparently there was a scene of a miner exhalinr and in h aJin ~~: , aPc1 thrn the script goE.'s on, "nr. ~ 'or g an requested Tlermission to c>xnmin<> conditions in the mill, but he was refused.' ' In arldition to his ovn expertise, Dr. ~lor~~;an arranged for nr, .John Patterson of Sunnvhroa] , Hospital in Toronto to fly to St. John's and 1.~ 6890

'lay 6, 1976 Tape 2493 PK - 5 ·~r. P.oherts: ------ · to read the x-rays of thP men. Dr. Morgan's preliminary report was sent to the United Steelworkers!' No"' we have a conunerical break then. And then it goes on, Ms. Taylor went on, that she and a colleague named Pat were going to he speaking to Mr. Leo Barry who at this stage was still a minister of the Crown. He had been unsuccessful in his bid for re-election, the people who knew him best had rejected him by a very large majority in his constituency, had elected my friend and colleague the p.entleman from Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning), hut Hr.

Rarry at that stage was just tf.dying up his affairs, resigned from the ministry in fact a few days after this, in the normal way. In any event Mr. Leo Barry and Dr. Mo~gan right after the commericals - so we pause for the commericals. Then we go on, llr. Chairman, Ms. Taylor goes on again,"Dr. Morgan was the gentleman who did the tests for us and be~ame involved in it. It looks terrible to us now. Are we over reacting - to the situation? How serious is it? And then it quotes Dr.

Morgan, "There are no gross cause• c11ses of asbestos:l.s among the men that he saw- I saw, he'1ays - ·but we do have men with symptoms. We have a report of some abnormal x-rays.

There are some changes in pulmonary function tests, and the story is not optimistic!' So last September 1 publicly on the national television 1 a man who was acknowledged as being a great expert tn this field- not as great as some other, but a great expert in the fteld - •~ho h:td made a study of the request of the uni.on, been refused co-operation by the company, andltad been apparently offere~ none hy the government to help him to get the facts, but that man, Dr. Horgan went on the national television and made that statement. And then the questioner goes on: "What are you saying?

The men ••ho :lTe already affected,is it something that can be cured?" Dr. Morgan, "No, there is no cure. The exposure to asbestos thnt will cause asbestosis later on or possible cancer has already occurred~ The questioner,"so there is no hope for those men'? 11 Dr. Morgan:• Well those men have to be watched and if they are developing any changes 6891

May 6, 1976 Tape 2493 PK - 6 Mr. Roberts: they certainly should not be in a dusty atmosphere!' Question: 11 Did you find any one person who should get immediate medical attention? 11 Dr. Morgan: '1Yes, but the people who are in need of attf'ntion are in fact getting it. Some of them are scheduled for a more complete work-up,probably in St. John's. They are known to the doctors!' ;I! 689~

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2494 Page 1 - liiW Mr. Roberts. flnPstionf'r: ''The company has said to us" - the company is Advocate ~ines I":tmiterl. owned partially by Johns~anville and partially by a Belgian firm I believe. I think Johns-Manville are the managing agents, the managing partner. Questioner: "The company has said to us thev have taken precautions, they have given warnings, Are 'ou satisfied with that?" Answer, Dr.

Morgan, "Ho, the only warning I have seen from the company is the one they issued the week I - Dr, Morgan - went to Baie Verte, and in that brochure of four pages there was nothing there that was not knatm at the time the mine openerl. The workers tell me that the company had said nothing about the hazards for the twelve years of operation." It is now thirteen. And I might point out during those thirteen years the Liberals were in office for eight and the present government, the P.C.'s for five. I think my figures are correct. Now that is the end of the interview with Dr. Morgan as it was reproduced there.

Now we have an interview with Mr. Leo Barry who was still the Minister of Mines. He was about to resign his office. He did resign his office shortly thereafter, but at that point he was still a minister in the cabinet. Questioner .named Pat, 'Mr. Barry, you are the Minister of Mines. Have we given you enough information to call an investigation?" Mr. Barry, ''Yes, you have. Unfortunately while I congratulate you for bringing this to the attention of the pub!ic, you have over-simplified a number of the issues. For example, you talk about an investigation." The interviewer llat, "No, but I would like to.

Are you going to call an investigation and call it tomorrow?" Mr. Barry, "If I find that the matters that Dr. Morgan has raised here tonight, which is the first time they have been raised to my attention, are not being investigated, there will be an investigation tomorrow, but there are three areas where when you talk about an investigation there has to be an investigation. First, with respect to standards, I think it should be pointed out that up until >"!· 6893

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2494 Page 2- mw Hr. Morgan. two years ago and probably still today there was great conflict as to the proper standards to be applied in the asbestos mine, international standards that is." And Carol Taylor, "I am afraid we are running out of time. I think most people who saw that item would hope very much for your investigation." Mr.

Barry, "There will be no question about that." That statement was made before that, but it was broadcast on September 21, 1975 from Toronto, add what I have read, Sir, is the verbatim transcript supplied to me, and I have read it in its entirety, in the relevant portions,as supplied to me by the producers of that W 5·show. So last September Mr. Barry made a flat commitment in the words and in the terms that I have outlined and expressed here in the Committee. Well, Sir, I will not say that nothing was done by Mr.

Barry and by the government, but I will say that to the best of my knowledge and ability, I have been unable to discover anything that was done by Mr. Barry or by the government. Mr. Barry may not have reported it to his colleagues. He resigned from the cabinet a day or so after this, re-entered the practice of law, and is now having a very successful and very good career at the bar here in St. John's. But that does not matter. What does matter, Sir, is that apparently nothing was done • Oh~, we will hear some talk about Dr. Austin Calahan, a fine man. He became assistant deputy minister of Health.

The appointment was made by the then Premier, the present member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), but I am not breaching any confidence or any constitutional prohibitions when I say the appoin~ment was made at my recommend~tion. I was the minister, and the assistant deputy ministership became vacant, and Dr. Cant became the deputy, at the retirement of Dr. Leonard Miller and after some considerable consideration and discussion and thought I went to the then Premier, and recommended Dr.

Calahan and that was the appointment as was made by the Premier or made by the Cabinet at the request and recommendation of the Premier, And that is proper. The appointment of deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers is the prerogative of the Prtme Minister or the Premier. G 8 9 :~

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2494 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. So Mr. Barry made a coiiDD.itment, but nothing has been done. We may hear about Dr. Colohan going off to England and going off to Chalk River, which is quite near Ottawa, not Toronto, going off to one place and another place, and I have no doubt that Dr. Colohan has probably amassed a vast amount of information, a vast amount of knowledge. He had a great deal of it before. His career has been very distinguished, and he has served well in a number of important public health positions.

But I do not know of anything that has been done at Baie Verte or in respect to the Baie Verte mines. And what I say to the minister is tell us and if something has been done then we shall judge accordipgly. But if nothing has been done, as I believe to be the case, then I say, Sir, the minister has ignored that problem, has been negligent, has been heartlessly and cruelly so. Now, Sir, subsequently, my friend and colleague, the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) ,-who is malting a fine mark in this House of Assembly - the gentleman from Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr.

Rideout) became very involved in the problem, because his constituents are involved, and because he has the responsibility of acting as our spokesman in health matters. And over the Winter months he has on occasion, as have I, been in touch with one o'f the great world authorities, perhaps the greatest world authority, Dr. Irving J. Sellikof. MR. H. COLLINS: Who else has? MR. ROBERTS: My friend has, I have. The minister has not. MR. H. COLLINS: That was mentioned, I think, last year. MR. ROBERTS: It may have been. The minister has not. I had a conversation with Dr. Sellikof as recent ago as Friday evening past.

There is nothing unusual or secret about that. He was in New York, and we had fifteen or twenty minutes on the telephone, and I will relate what went on in the conversation. If only the minister had had enough interest to pick up the phone and call Dr. Sellikof, it might be a little different. 689:1

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2494 Page 4- mw Mr . Roberts. But Dr. Sellikof, Sir, for the benefit of the Committee,is accepted -and acknowledged as one of the world authorities, perhaps the leading authority in the world, on these problems of asbestosis. I do not think there is a man or woman anywhere in the world who knows more than Dr. Sellikof does about this, and I do not think there are very many at all who even know as much. And Dr. Sellikof and his research people at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City have become very deeply interested in the Baie Verte situation.

And some time ago they decided,- not at IllY request or at anybody' s request - they decided to make an investigation into the Baie Verte situation, the sort of thing that Mr. Barry had promised,that the minister, if he had not been heartlessly negligent, would have done months ago, if he had given a hoot for the health of the men there, he would have done. After all the evidence has been presented here in the House and outside. Dr. Sellikof and his research associates decided to make a study. They did not ask for money. What they did they first of all went to the company and to the union.

And remember they are not making this study for the union, Mr. Chairman. They are not making it for the company. They are completely neutral. They are not the company's men. They are not the union's men. They are dedicated to scientific impartiality, and to a dedication to letting the truth rule without any regard to whether it hurts or helps the company or hurts or helps the union. They are exactly the people we need. They are impartial, and they are expert. So they were in approach Dr. Sellikof has told me, they approached the company, and they approached the union.

The union promised their enthusiastic co-operation. The company had promised their co-operation, and I am not sure they are quite as enthusiastic as the union are, but they have certainly, Dr. Sellikof tells me, assured him of their full and complete support. They are willing to co-operate in the investigation, and make available any information they may have and make available any information or facilities ·t G89 II

May 6, 1976 Mr. Roberts. Tape no . 2494 Page 5 which they" can put at the disposal of the research team. And that is admirable, and I think the Advocate Mines Limit:ed should be congratulated and the United Steel Workers of America should be congratulated. Unfortunately there is nothing on which I can congratulate the minister, becatiae he has done nothing to help these people, But, Sir, despite ' the minister's appalling dereliction of duty, the fact remains we are now goi~g to get an impartial assessment by world~aclcnowledged ~erts of the asbestosiS situation at aaie Verte. If there is a problem,as Dr.

Morgan says, we will have some idea of what the c1imens.iona of that problem are. If there is no problem, if Dr. Mo.rg,a.n's view is wrong, then we w:Ul. be assured of that. But in any .event we will know. How will we know? We will know· because Dr • Sellikof is going to make his report public • Be is going to make it public to the union. He is going to make it public to the company, and he has updert .aken to make it pub.lic to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and to anybody else who is interested. He is coming as a seeker after truth.

He is not coming as the company's man or the union's man, He is coming as a seeker after scientific and medical truth. And he is coming armed i< 6 97

r•ay 6, 1976 Tape 2495 IB-1 W .. 1'0BETITS: with all of the knowledre and skill that a man could possibly have in this branch of medicine and occupational health matters. Now nr. SeJlikof cl:!d not ask for any money. He hml arranged fund:lnr;. But when I spoke to him quite early on after it hacl been decided to do th:l s J said to him, "'·Jell, ')oc tor, it :1 s go :1 np: to cost you a 1 ot of money.

Are you getting any money from the union?'' ' 'No, no", he. said,'\.•e would not take any money from the union." "Hell," I said, "what ahout the company?" "No", he said, ~~~~e would not take any from the compl'lny e:lther." "Hell", I said, "where are you goinp to get yonr money?" "HelJ", he said, "we have limiterl research func's and, yoi1 know, we will finance it ourselves before '~e take money from tl•e union or company." "WelJ ", 1 11a:ld, ",,•hat about the governl"'ent, "'hat about public money?" He sa:!d, "Hell, we are not lbokinr; for it h11t our funds are scarce and :If need be we would take it because they are not union, they are not company, they are supposedly impartial, supposedly on the sic1e of right." I said, "tfell fine doctor.

I cannot talk to you about government Inoney because I am not in the government." And he saic1 that he understood our political system and how there were governments and oppositions, and he realized that I "'as not :f_n the govern!'lent, that I was in opposition. "Well", I said, "I will ask my collear-ue, the member concerned who represents that d:l.str:lct, to write to the ~·in:! ster of Health to ask." So the l'inister of Health received a letter dated ~~arch 25 addressed to him by my colleague. Let me read it to the Committee, Sir, because I think it is very much in point.

It is addressed to the minister. ''near rr. Collins" - MR. NEARY: l\'11at year? NJ!. rnBEllTS: Last month, Y.arch 25, 1976. This is ~·ay 6, six weeks ago. It was only the study - for the benefit of the gentleman for LaPoi)e ("r. Neary) - nr. Sellikof only decidec to TT>ake the study to my knowledge in early March or late February. Th11t is when T ,,,as told that nr. Sell:lkof hac' a~reed to make the stnr1y. 1-Jhl'lt he had :4 689~

1' :1V " · 1976 Tape 2495 IB-2 "T' P()JlET>T~: heC'n t~11i tinr for was ~1or<1, for en111.1iry from the co1!1pany. The l"atter h:.cl been debated here long before but it was only in February or "<~rch - I do not have a note of the exact date -·but in February or ''arch that Dr. f:ellikof was able to get the clearance, the green light from the company and the union. Anyway, "near ~r. Collins, !-'arch 25, 1976. near Yr. r.ollins, As you know I -the gentleman from Baie Verte-White Bay nrr.

Pldeout) - am very concerned about the potential hazards that might exist at l'lclvocate ~'ines in Baie Verte. ~·y main concern at the iiiUllecUate moment i" that the •~orkers at the mine may be exposed to dangerously high levels of asbestos dust. It is well known that over-exposure to <~Rhestos <lust can be extremely dangerous to the health of human be:!.ngs.

Tt 1s with this in m:!.nd that I seek your support at the present t ill'e. ''nur:lnr the Summer of 1975 the TTnited Steel Workers of America T'nion had a T'r. }<organ carry out a survey of a selected group C"f men wnrJ..:tng at Aclvocate Yines." Although the gentleman from R:de ''erte-Hhite Bay (r'r.

Rideout) does not say so,that is the study tP Phich Dr. ~'organ gave testimony on theW 5 progratmDe • Anyway the . letter goes on: "nr. ~'organ's study revealed that a number of the men sh~ed lung abnormalities but he could not say conclusively ,.,hether or not these abnormalities ~~ere caused by over-exposure to ,,sbestos dust. Since Advocate }l:f.nes has only been ln operation for t••e] ve to th 1 rteen years ,and since the gestation period for 11sbestos related diseases i.s much longer than that, nr. l'orgart found it impossible to make a positive conclusion re the abno~alities rr f erred to.

"IloHever two things are clear. One, we know that asbestos <:'t~Rt can he extremel.y harmful to the health. Two, we know that •,mrkcrs at lt<h,ocate ~~ines have been subjected to a very high dust level for a nt~ber of years. The conclusion then is obvious. A potential health hazard exists at Advocate ~fines and the workers have been 689~

Nay 6, 1976 Tape 2495 IR-3 ~O_B~]lJ~ exposed to it for many years, long enough to have contracted asbestos related diseases. I feel that ~Te have an immedbte responsihil:l ty to determine precisely the medical state of all the workers now employed at Advocate ¥ines. To do any less wouJd,in my opinion,mean that we are failinp; in our responsihlity to those people." It goes on, }<r. r.hairman, "As you might be aware,nr. Irvin~ J. Sellikof of the Yount Sina:l School of Hedicine in Ne~' York :Is a world recognized authority on asbestos related diseases. nr.

Sellikof through an agreement w:l th Johns-}'anv:llle, the operators at Advocate ¥ines 1 and the United Steel "1-Torkers llnion has agreed to r.o to Baie Verte and to carry out a complete medical study of all the workers at Advocate }'ines. Johns-}!anville will pay for the cost of X-rays, but in no other way will Dr. Sellikof accept any contribution from the company or the union. His desire - and I agree w:lth h:lm - is that the survey will be completely :Impartial and independent.

He will not be indebted to company or union so tha~ the results of the survey w1.11 in no way be subject to censorship by either party mentioned." I might a~d of my own knowledge, }'r. C:hairman, that in my conversation with nr. Sellikof he has been adamant on that point. I think rightly so. The letter goes on. "Since nr. Sellikof will not accept any financial help from the company or the un:lon,and since this survey in my opinion is absolutely necessary and shoul cl he carrie~ out 1 I feel that the government of this Province should support it in a f:lnanc:tal manner. For nr.

Sellikof and his aids to travel to Ba:le Verte will be expensive. I feel that the Province shoul~ provide travel and maintenance for Dr. Sell ikof to carrv out this survey.'' ~'Y colleague and frfend goes on: '"I feel that a max:l.mlll'l of $5,000 would adequately provide Dr. SellH:of w:lth travel and maintenance funds. When you remember that there are 500 men workin~ at Advocate Mines.and that $5,000 is only ten clollars per 'mr~cr 1 T feel that it iF; very Uttle t0 ask. 'T'he workPTS ancl pe0ple of thr1t 6~00

~·ny li, 1976 Tape 2495 IB-4 !'P. . J!Ol'lfl'T~: are11. ha•re a ri.p:ht to know exactly what the situation is. The government have an opportunity to help make that possible. I beg your support so lhnt it m:lp,ht be iletermined once and for all what is exactly the situation at Baie Verte. I am anxiously await:l.ng your reply to this request. ~hould you require further information I shall do all I can to prov:l.de it.

I know you are concerned about conditions at Baie Verte and T present this proposal as a positive ~~ay to carefully and accurately assess~and hopefully avert before it is too late,what could be a tr:>g:l .c s1tuat:f.on. Vith every best wish, Sincerely yours, signed Tom Rideout, ~1HA, Baie Verte-White Bay." A very good letter, a very reasonable request and one which ;:my member for any district should be complimented for ~~rit:!ng. 1~. NEA~Y: Did they reply? l.fl?. RORERTS: Yes, I will read the reply in a moment. There was no public reference made to it. We did not attack the minister.

We ~id not make n press statement. We did not raise the matter :In the !louse. It "t<•as done obviously openly and responsibly and with every effort genuinely to try to get some help from the government. And I nav say, S:lr, my colleague consulted me on the wording of the letter and the idea of it and I told him I thought it was an excellent letter 11.nd I thought it was an eminently reasonable request and I would be extremely surprised if it was not granted. The amount of money :Involve<' is not very large vie~red with whatever the Health Department is spending, $120 million, $1.30 million this year?

A.l'l ll0N. ~'EPBEl': $194 m:l H ion. •m. l'OBErTS: $194 million, $200 million. It :Is not even the interest on a tenth of one per cent. I thought that there would be no question, that the letter would come back saying, "Delighted to." I mean, the snrvey will cost $40,000 or $50,000 or $60,000. "nelighted to get it fnr $5,000. Tell nr. Sellikof to get in touch with us and we will be hnppy to recei.ve a request from him for money anc1 we would be happy to p:rant :1 t." -1 6901

May 6, 1976 Tape 2495 IB-5 tnl. ROBERTS: Well, 1:orhat was the minister's response? Hhat concern and care did he show? lvell a letter came back dated ~'arch 30. "near 'lfr. Rideout, Thank you for your letter dated ~~arch 25, 1971i aclvisinr: of the proposal of Dr. Irving J. Sellikof's survey of the Baie Verte miners and requesting funding to a maximum of $5,r)QQ to support this survey.

As I know you have heard me say on several occasions the situation at Baie Verte is of course that the presence of asbestos dust does constitute a very real health hazarcl. }'y department,along with the Departments of }fines and Energy and Provincia] Affairs and Environment has been closely involved with moni torinr,, not only of the environmental conclitions but of the miners concerned. In this regard I must pay tribute particularly to Dr. nouglas BJ ack a.nd his survey at the t' .J. Boylen Hospital in Baie Verte.

"As a resuJ t of our interest in obtaining an inclepen(lent view my department d:!.Ct co-operate with the recent visit of Dr. ~'organ, a well-known r.anadian expert, i.n surveying the miners. You are correct that nr. }<organ could not positively identify adbestos related diseases. This was however a significant report in that it did lend support to our actions in surveying techni.ques, etc. as they have been and are continuing to be conducted. Yy department certainly would again support and co-operate with another survey if it was the request of the miners and the company. As you probably know,nr.

Black has had ongoing discussions with nr. Sellikof in terms of detailed preparations for the survey. Similarly nr. Austin rolohan director, Occupational Health Division has expressecl hi.s support for the project. " It was my understanding that the arrangements for nr. Sellikof including funding had been finalized. }'y department has recieved no other requests for funding. To be frank with you,I am not prepared at this time in this year of significant cost restraints to recommend public funcling for t~is venture primarily because it duplicates the work of a very recent study.

I lmu1d certain] y he prepared to discuss this further with officials organizinr the project ··~ G90~

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2496 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. should this decision jeopardize the proposal. Thank you for your continuing interest. Yours sincerely, Harold A. Collins, Minister." Yes . yes ! "Thank you for your continuin~ interef't." MR. H. COLLINS: No, the one before that. MR. ROBERTS: The one that said, "I would certainly be prepared to discuss this further with officials organizing the project should this decision jeopardize the proposal." That is not the last. It is the second last sentence. MR. H. COLLINS: You have a better copy than 1 have. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, that is right, but I did not write it nor did I sign it. Mr. Chairman, let me begin by saying that Dr. Sellikof tells me the survey is going ahead with or without the Hinister of Health 1 s help, Let me say that clearly and explicitly, and it is going ahead with the full and enthusiastic co-operation of the Steel Workers Union on both the national or international level and the company, both the Johns Manville Company and the Belgian firm. MR. NEARY: !>'ell the company should pay the full shot. MR. ROBERTS: Well,Dr.

Sellikof is reluctant to accept it from the company because he would feel then that his survey could be attacked on the ground it might be- you know, he wants to be like Caesar's wife, not only be above suspicion,but seem to be above suspicion. MR. NEARY: Would he not be? MR. ROBERTS: Well, I think he would be, but I merely relay his feeling, his position as he has expressed it to me, because I put exactly that point to him. But I feel, Sir, the government should do something on this. The sum of money involved is not terribly large, $5,000. The minister is talking of saving $5 million, $2 million net.

The government can spend $250,000 on sending the Norma and Gladys around the world or wherever she is at and going to. I could list of any number. We can spend $20,000 on a new car for the Premier. We can r G90J

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2496 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. spend $30 or $40, I will bet, having dinner with the minister and two or three of his colleagues over in Act III the other night. You know, we could do.·any number of things. MR. MURPHY: One hundred thousand dollars for the Opposition office. MR. ROBERTS: Yes,and money well spent getting far better value for it than we ever got before. MR. NEARY: And $250,000 on the MacPherson property. MR. ROBERTS: And $250,000 whatever it is on whatever property the hon. gentleman - the MacPherson that is over here.

Ah, we could go through the estimates if we were allowed to, but, of course, we are not to be allowed to debate the estimates. We can waste $3 million on Fisheries, with ministerial maladministration and - well, that is not parliamentary so I will not say it. MR. MURPHY: Why not? MR. ROBERTS: But let me say, Mr. Ch8irman - MR. PATTERSON: You do not know a thing about the fisheries. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman from Placentia East (Mr. Patterson) thinks I do not know a thing about the fisheries. MR. PATTERSON: You do not know a thing. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Sir, that may be.

Let me say simply, Sir, that let us have the debate here in the Committee. Let him press his colleagues who are trying to cover up the Fisheries scandals 1and let us have the debate here in the Committee, and let htm say what he wants, Mr. Chairman. I have the floor, Mr. Chairman. Let the han. gentleman be quiet. MR. PATTERSON: MR. ROBERTS: MR. ROWE: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN: What rubbish! Mr. Chairman, let the hon. gentleman be quiet, Sir.­ Sit down! He does not have the floor. Order, please! Mr. Chairman, let htm observe the rules. Order, please!

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2496 Page 3- mw MR. PATTERSON: What a red herring! MR. ROWE: Sit down, boy! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! Whilst the hon. Leader of the Opposition has the floor, and he does not wish to yield, other members are forbidden to comment except in a fashion that is acceptable and taken by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The only red herrings involved here are the ones which the gentleman from Placentia East district (Mr. Patterson) tries to drag in. MR. PATTERSON: Shut up and sit down! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, there he is again. MR.

ROWE: Sit down! Sit down! MR. DOODY: You are not allowed to stand up. MR. ROBERTS: ~!r. Chairman, to a point of order, Sir. MR. ROllE: Name him! MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman is defying a ruling Your Honour made. Your Honour directed him to sit down, and the hon. gentleman is then on his feet grabbing his microphone and saying he will not sit down. Well, Sir, surely he does not mean to defy the Chairman's ruling. Well in that case let him observe the Chairman's ruling. Let him be seated.

Let him stay seated, and let him stay quiet until his time comes to speak in this debate and then, Sir, we will gladly hear him. MR.. CHAIRMAN : Order, please! A point of order has been raised, and the hon. Leader of the Opposition has commented on it. He is, of course, correct in saying that if an hon. member has the floor no other member may rise and speak unless the hon. member having the floor wishes to yield and indicates his willingness to do so. So I would ask the hon. member for Placentia East (Mr. Patterson) if he would observe this ruling. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. •t G90~

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2496 Page 4 - mw MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now I am deadly serious about this. I think the minister's refusal, Sir, is one of the most despicable acts I have ever heard of, and it has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with what I believe to be the proper administration of the high office of the Minister of Health. The fact remains, Sir, that this minister will not even given $10 a head to help one of the great experts in the world to look into a problem that we all admit, that the minister will admit, is a problem.

He will not do that despite the fact that one of his former colleagues,at a time he was still a cabinet colleague, Mr. Barry, made a commitment in the terms I have expressed it. He will not help in any way. Well, Dr. Sellikof is coming anyway. I believe it is the 14th or 15th of June he is due to arrive. He is bringing fifteen or sixteen technicians and doctoss with him. He has got the enthusiastic co-operation of the Medical School at the University and of the Boylen Hospital.

He has got the help of everybody except the Minister of Health who obviously does not give - I was going to say, does not give two cents - does not give $5,000 to help to find out what is happening at Baie Verte. Mr. Chairman, I think it is despicable. I think it is an abdication of the high responsibilities which the Minister of Health should take on, and I am only speaking of Baie Verte. I could speak of my friend's district, the gentleman from Menihek ( Mr.

Rousseau) and the situation in the iron ore operations in Western Labrador where we are beginning to get the cases now of silicosis of the men who worked in that plant. I am told there are twenty-seven in all of men who have been crippled in the chest, crippled in their pulmonary functions, their breathing functions. I have run into a number of them recently in the hospital in St. Anthony, men in their thirties who are condemned to a living death. MR. ROUSSEAU: The first time Rill Parsons had the Minister of Health down here was in 1'167. MR. ROBERTS: That could well be. I was not the Minister of Health in 1967.

It was probably the gentleman from St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) : He

Hay 6, 1976 Tape no. 2496 Page 5 - mw Mr. Rober.ts. became Minister of Health at some point in 1967,and then subsequently when the gentleman from St. John's West (Hr. Crosbie) left the cabinet then the present member for the district of Grand Bank (Mr. Hickman) became Minister of Health. I became minister in June 1969.

If we want to go back through it, I carried on a continuing war with a number of officials and colleagues in other departments as to whose responsibility this was, and we have talked about that here in this House many times, because I think it is the Health _Department that should take the responsibility, not Mines and Energy, and not Workmen's Compensation or Industrial Relations. It is the Department of Health that must t$ke the lead in this matter, and that is why debating it on the Minister of Health's - MR. COLLINS: That is your opinion. MR, ROBERTS: It certainly is my opinion, Sir.

Of course, it is my opinion. It is the opinion shared by anybody who has the least concern for it. It is not the Minister of Health's opinion, because he does not ~ive a hoot. He could not care less,on the evidence he is putting out here,whether the men in Baie Verte are poisoned or not. It is of no concern to him on his acts, judging on his actions. He will not even give $5,000. We can build a theatre in Gander, a lo~ely thing to have. We cannot find $10 a man for 500 men to put down in Baie Verte, to help. It is only the least part of the study, and the minister hides behind the refuge.

He can ekplode me by standing up and saying now, I am concerned, I will go to cabinet, and I will get the $5,000 0 And let him do that instead of hiding behind this business, I have no~ heard directly from Dr. Sellikof. Of course, he has not. He has not been in touch with him. He has not done anything to help Dr. Sellikof. He has done everything he can to hinder this investigation. The minister wishes it would never come up, and that is why he is trying to hurt it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I have to remind the hon. Leader of the Opposition that h~s forty-five minutes has expired. 69'07

May 6, 1976 Tape no. 2496 Page 6 - IIIW MI. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Chairman, I have ninety minutes, Sir. Mr. Chairman, I have ninety minutes. MR. NEARY: No! MR. ROBERTS: Yes. MR. NEARY: Not in Committee though. MR. ROBERTS: Standing Order - yes,in Committee, I believe that to be correct, or Your Honour rules other- Standing Order 49 (a), "No member, except the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition shall speak for more than forty-five minutes at a time in any debate." And is it Standing Order 44, Your Honour reads it? From day to day that the rules of the Committee are those in the rules of the House.

I have ninety minutes as of right on any matter when I am recognized by the Chair and so does the Premier. I think that is correct Your Honour, but if Your Honour wishes to rule on it - 49 (

a) is the relevant order and then 44 (

a) in turn. Does Your Honour wish to rule? MR. NEARY: Not in Committee. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, yes on Committee. The rules of the House apply in Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Perhaps I could read 49 (

a) for the information of all members, 49 (

a) and (b); .49(

a) reads: "No member, except the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition or a Minister moving a gavernment order and the member speaking in reply immediately after such Minister, or a member making a motion of "Non Confidence" in the , government and a Minister replying thereto shall speak for more than forty-five _minutes at any time in any debate." And 49(b): "The Premier and the Leader of the Opposition shall not be entitled to speak for more than ninety minutes at any time in