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November 25, 1996

36th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L127 - Mon 25 Nov 1996 / Lun 25 Nov 1996

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LOIS DUBOIS

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

CARDIOPULMONARY RESUSCITATION

HIGHWAY INSPECTORS

SKIING IN SAULT STE MARIE

LINDSAY BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

EMPLOYMENT EQUITY

UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

DEVELOPMENT CHARGES

ESTIMATES

CASE REPORT, OMBUDSMAN

VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING

ONTARIO CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTE

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

LABOUR RELATIONS

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

RENT REGULATION

SALES TAX HARMONIZATION

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

PARENT-SCHOOL ASSOCIATION

ONTARIO FEDERATION OF AGRICULTURE

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

PETITIONS

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

PUBLIC LIBRARIES

LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD OF ONTARIO

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

EDUCATION

RENT REGULATION

TAX REDUCTION

SNOWMOBILE REGISTRATION

SCHOOL BUS SAFETY

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

SALE OF AMMUNITION

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

CHILD CARE

PUBLIC LIBRARIES

RENT REGULATION

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

ALTERNATIVE FUELS ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LES CARBURANTS DE REMPLACEMENT

WINDSOR UTILITIES COMMISSION ACT, 1996

DEVELOPMENT CHARGES ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LES REDEVANCES D'AMÉNAGEMENT

PARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FAMILY RESPONSIBILITY AND SUPPORT ARREARS ENFORCEMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LES OBLIGATIONS FAMILIALES ET L'EXÉCUTION DES ARRIÉRÉS D'ALIMENTS

The House met at 1333.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

LOIS DUBOIS

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): On Friday I attended a book-launching ceremony. The author of the book does not have world recognition. She's a local Sudburian by the name of Lois Dubois. The name of the book is Discover the Secret...to Taking Charge of Your Cancer...and Winning!! Lois is fighting the ravages of cancer. Let me quote from the introduction of her book:

"I am a person who has taken charge of my illness and as a result, have lived a fuller life than I would have thought possible. If this book succeeds in helping one person, I will have reached my purpose in writing it. If it helps more, the benefits will, I hope, produce a chain reaction that will encourage a few more. Only then will a mass of sick patients become people who, in spite of their illness, have other aspects of their life that will help them get through each of life's challenges. There is definitely a difference between being a sick person and being a person with a sickness."

Lois's inspirational book, her poems, thoughts and words of experience, is sure to help others who have found and find themselves in similar circumstances. Although Lois isn't world-renowned, we think the world of her. Good luck to Lois Dubois, Diane Jacques, Terry Fera and all those who battle against cancer. We can and we must, we must, win this war.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): I want to return to the continuing crisis at the family support plan. In mid-August of this year the Attorney General laid off 290 experienced plan staff and closed the regional offices. He did this for purely political, partisan reasons; namely to help finance the tax cut. The operating costs of the family support plan will be reduced by 35% over the next two years and there will be 40% fewer staff to try and run the office. As a direct result of the decision to finance the tax cut on the backs of these women and children, families who used to receive regular support payments are now not.

To date in my constituency office we have received over 104 cases since the minister announced his cuts. As of Friday last, we have 39 cases which remain open because we cannot get a response back from the family support plan with respect to our inquiries. We fax our cases daily directly to the family support plan, except when the fax lines are jammed, which they have been for more than 24 hours on more than one occasion. The overwhelming majority of our cases are women and children who used to receive regular support payments, whose payors have already had their cheques deducted and whose employers have remitted money to the plan. But once that money is remitted, it goes into a black hole.

Last week we finally had to raise the case publicly of Diane, whose case we faxed twice marked "Urgent." In 15 minutes we got a call back, and she got money two days later. That's not the way we should be operating --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you.

CARDIOPULMONARY RESUSCITATION

Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): One of the saddest things that can happen to a family and a community happened in Huron county this weekend. Six of our most prominent young citizens were in a car when the car collided and tipped upside down. Three of our youths were killed. Brian Hill, Pam King and Neal Atchison are dead. Three others are in serious condition at University Hospital.

I was asked prior to this to talk about CPR so that I might gain awareness and education for CPR, which is cardiopulmonary resuscitation. It is a basic life-supporting mechanism. I believe that when the car was found on Saturday night, some of the youths who first came to them helped with CPR.

The ABCs of CPR are to open the airways, allowing the air to reach the lungs; they must start breathing by supplying an air exchange from oxygen in the air to supply the blood; and they must cause circulation -- the blood flow must be sufficient to carry the oxygen to the tissues.

Everyone should be trained in CPR. As a result of this, the government of Ontario announced that funding would be available to install defibrillators in ambulances across the province. They have in fact been installed in Huron county. As of October 10, these life-saving devices were available in ambulances across Huron county and other regions of the province.

My condolences to the families.

HIGHWAY INSPECTORS

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): The Minister of Transportation has just fired 600 inspectors whose job it was to police construction safety for our highways. By getting rid of 600 inspectors, who will ensure highways are built to standard? Who will inspect the work of private contractors to ensure they are not cutting corners and doing substandard work on highway construction and repairs?

It seems the Minister of Transportation is about to put the foxes in charge of the henhouse. Yes, he's going to let the private contractors set their own standards and inspect their own work. The private contractors are laughing all the way to the bank, and the Ontario taxpayer will be victimized with substandard highways and additional bills from these same contractors for repair work when the roads fall apart.

The firing of 600 inspectors coupled with the dumping of 1,700 kilometres of highways on to local municipalities will mean the end of our uniform road system in Ontario. With no inspectors to ensure standards are met, the provincial government has abdicated a fundamental responsibility to the taxpayers, who will receive less value for their tax dollar in highways that are more hazardous. It is clear the minister is more interested in making the highway construction firms happy. Today he has made them very happy at the expense of the road users and taxpayers of Ontario.

SKIING IN SAULT STE MARIE

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): Yes, we have snow. Anybody who watched the Grey Cup yesterday will know that it's snowing all over Ontario. But even more importantly, it's snowing in Sault Ste Marie and Algoma.

The Mountains of the Midwest, the best skiing this side of the Rockies, will be open this weekend and we're inviting everybody to come on over, come on down, come on up and ski in Sault Ste Marie, ski the Mountains of the Midwest just north of our city. Bring the whole family. We have tubing, we have skating, we have cross-country skiing and, yes, we have the best of accommodations.

While you're there, take advantage of the wonderful hospitality of the people of Sault Ste Marie and Algoma, and visit with us. We have all kinds of things that you can see, not the least among them the bushplane museum.

When I left Sault Ste Marie this morning, it was snowing. They've been making snow on the hill for the last two weeks. It's nice and powdery, the best snow you'll find anywhere. So if you're getting into the winter spirit after watching the Grey Cup yesterday in Hamilton, take the time to call ahead and come on up to Sault Ste Marie this weekend and ski at the Mountains of the Midwest in Searchmont.

LINDSAY BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): I am honoured to present this statement on behalf of the member for Victoria-Haliburton. The Lindsay Boys and Girls Club believes every kid has potential, a statement that my colleague from Victoria-Haliburton believes in, as I do.

In 1992, the Boys and Girls Club of Ontario started a scholarship program. From an initial $4,000 and four awards, the program has grown to over $40,000 and 41 awards being given out in 1996. On November 10, Tracey Medina and David Stubbs from the Lindsay Boys and Girls Club were recognized by their corporate sponsor as recipients of this fine scholarship.

As a club volunteer, Tracey helped in children's programs and organized special events and field trips, serves as the editor of the club's paper, and some day would like to work with socially and emotionally disabled children. David is currently the chairperson of the club's youth council and very active in the day care and junior drop-in program. Some day he also wishes to pursue a career with the Boys and Girls Club.

On behalf of my friend Chris Hodgson, MPP for Victoria-Haliburton, let me congratulate both of these individuals. He is proud and honoured to have two such distinguished constituents working so hard to make their community a better place.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): Last Thursday during private members' hour we had two bills that were being forwarded, and both were passed. One concerned the Ontario College of Early Childhood Educators and its development. That was passed unanimously by this House. But when our House had the choice to send this bill to committee, what it did was to send it to committee of the whole House. For those of us at home, we realize this is sending it into orbit, so it likely will never come down and will never become part of law and part of legislation here. This group in this House did the purely and crassly political thing of not supporting it.

May I tell you, Mr Speaker, that this Thursday, we as members of the House on all sides have the opportunity to pass another private member's bill, that of our colleague Pat Hoy, who is bringing in legislation regarding safety on school buses. The most notable thing about this is that it will double the fines for those cars that choose to just zoom by stopped school buses when their lights are flashing.

Every day in Ontario more than 810,000 children ride 16,000 school buses. It's incumbent on us to ensure the safety of the children in Ontario. May I tell you that we don't want this House to do the purely crassly political thing. We want this bill sent to a standing committee so we can make sure it does become law, because they are all our children.

EMPLOYMENT EQUITY

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): This morning I attended a press conference which brought together a number of community groups sponsored mainly by the Alliance for Employment Equity. They are challenging the constitutional validity of Bill 8, the so-called Job Quotas Repeal Act, on the grounds that it violates the right to equality as guaranteed under

section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's based on a number of myths that have been perpetuated by this government.

Myth 1: The so-called disadvantaged groups are treated equally. If they have the qualifications, they will get the job. Fact: Aboriginal people, persons with disabilities, members of racial minorities and women have continued to face disadvantages which are largely generated by forces of discrimination.

Myth number 2: The Employment Equity Act is a quota system. Fact: The Ontario Employment Equity Act did not require quotas.

Myth: The Employment Equity Act is inconsistent with merit. Fact: The Ontario Employment Equity Act is consistent with merit.

Myth: The Employment Equity Act has been replaced by an equal opportunity plan. Fact: The current provincial government repealed the Employment Equity Act but it has been replaced with nothing.

There are a number of myths around which I have no time to elaborate, but I want to invite those who are watching today that this issue is going to court tomorrow. Bring yourself and a friend to the Ontario Court, 361 University Avenue, 10 am, Tuesday, November 26, and give your support to that group.

UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO

Mr Terence H. Young (Halton Centre): Once again it gives me great pleasure to inform this House of the tremendous accomplishments being made by Ontario's universities. Today I would like to congratulate the faculty, staff, students and administration at the University of Toronto for being recognized for the third year in a row as the best university in Canada by Maclean's magazine.

President Rob Prichard attributed the success to their students, faculty and private donors. The generous assistance of private donors enabled the university to contribute a greater percentage of its operating budget to student aid than any other university in the country. This level of commitment ensures that no qualified student will be turned away from U of T because of financial need.

For six years, the Maclean's rankings have raised the level of competition among our universities. It is this kind of scrutiny which will push them to improve upon their already high levels of achievement in the future.

I ask all members of this House to join me in congratulating the University of Toronto for its continuing success and encourage Ontario's other universities to do their best to unseat them next year.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

DEVELOPMENT CHARGES

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): In the Common Sense Revolution we promised to get rid of the barriers to job creation, investment and economic growth. I am pleased to tell the members of this House that later today we will be introducing legislation that helps us to meet those goals.

The new 1996 Development Charges Act will ensure that these charges will no longer be a barrier to economic growth, to jobs and to new development in this province. The new act will create new jobs in the construction industry and it will help to make homes --

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): Oh boy, I can see these cheques being --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. I can't hear the member. The member for Cochrane South, heckling is out of order, and it's particularly out of order in the aisle.

Hon Mr Leach: The new act will create new jobs in the construction industry and it will help to make homes more affordable for the average Ontario family.

Exactly one year ago we began the fundamental review of the existing Development Charges Act. When that act was passed in 1989, it was supposed to bring consistency and accountability to the way local governments pay for new infrastructure. Development charges help to pay for roads, water and sewer systems, for recreation centres, for parks and libraries, and for cultural centres and administrative buildings, all the things that municipalities thought were necessary for new families and new businesses to thrive and grow and prosper.

In the seven years since the act was passed, there's been a growing concern that the system just isn't working the way it was supposed to. In some municipalities, development charges have become so excessive they have turned into barriers -- barriers to economic growth, to home ownership, to new jobs in construction and to the competitiveness of Ontario businesses. Let me give you just one example. Development charges can account for as much as $20,000 on a $160,000 home, and that's 12% of the cost. That wouldn't be all that bad if that charge reflected the actual cost of bringing services to that new home.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): It's sure payback. That's what the Tories are all about.

Hon Mr Leach: But there's a growing sense today that development charges are too high. Some things shouldn't be paid for just by new residents alone, by young families buying their first new home -- the member opposite would like that to happen -- or by businesses that are trying to expand and grow. It's hard enough for most people to try and pay for a new home without being asked to kick in for a new museum at the same time and then pay property taxes for all the services already in the community.

High development charges have made new homes unaffordable for the average family in Ontario. They have contributed to the high cost of new rental housing. But that doesn't mean development charges aren't needed. They are needed. Development brings in new residents and new businesses to municipalities, and those people expect certain services. More people bring more pressure on services like roads, sewers and water, libraries and recreation centres. It makes sense to have new development pay for some of these growth-related costs, but newcomers shouldn't be expected to pay for gold-plated services.

We will make some critical changes to the act that address the needs of developers and new home buyers, that meet the needs of municipalities.

To address the question of what doesn't have to be built now we will reduce the scope of eligible services. Development charges will no longer be imposed for facilities like a new city hall, museums, theatres or tourism facilities. Instead, these will be paid for by general tax revenue.

To control the standards by which facilities are built we will increase municipal accountability and responsibility. In the future, municipalities will contribute 10% of the cost of services like new roads and water and sewer systems from general revenues and 30% of the cost of services like new libraries and community centres. They will be asked to think about the benefits and burdens of building that will affect the whole community and they'll have to think about long-term costs and long-term responsibilities before they target new facilities and new services for development charges.

Municipal councillors will have to look at what they already have in their communities and make that existing capacity part of their calculation for development charges for new services. They'll be asked to base their charges on the actual benefits of these new facilities to their new residents and businesses instead of letting new developments and newcomers bear the full cost. We will also require local councils to do a background study of the long-term operating costs of any services being considered for development charges.

This new act isn't just about new homes. It's also about industrial growth. Last week we read about a developer who had to pay over $200,000 in development charges to put up 100,000 square feet of industrial space. With this new act we will be exempting from development charges the first 50% of expanded floor space in any new industrial expansion.

During the last year we've talked about these issues with municipal leaders and we've talked to the people from the development industry. I believe we've come up with a workable balance. The new Development Charges Act will give municipalities what they need to support new growth. It will meet the needs of the development industry, but most of all this new act will serve the needs of the people of Ontario. The legislation we're introducing today will go a long way towards funding growth in a way that's fair and equitable to everyone.

This new legislation promises to make new homes more affordable, create jobs and growth in the construction industry and stimulate the overall economy of this province.

The Speaker: Responses.

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): We're in the Christmas season. You've certainly given a great big gift to the developers of this province, Minister. I wish David Crombie was in the House today, because normally when the government makes a good-news announcement they're here. Why isn't he here? Because you've gone exactly 180 degrees in the direction Mr Crombie doesn't want you to go.

Let's see what Mr Crombie of your famous Who Does What panel says about this: "Development charges are a critical and essential municipal revenue source for financing growth-related capital infrastructure. Any amendments to the act to reduce the scope or permitted level of development charges will mean higher municipal taxes or user fees." That's what this is really all about and you know it.

Mr Crombie also goes on to say, and this is the irony of the whole situation: "It is also noted that the permissive nature of the act does not obligate municipalities to impose a development charge. For these reasons, the subpanel strongly recommends that municipalities should continue to decide on the level of development charges in accordance with the act."

Let me just ask you one thing. You are the minister who went to AMO these past couple of years and said: "We want to start a new partnership with the municipalities of Ontario. We want to be equal partners in the development of this province." Well, it sure doesn't sound like much of an equal partnership to me if in effect you are making that many new regulations to what is essentially a permissive act to start off with. You don't trust the municipalities, and that's why you're bringing this act forward at this time.

You are the person who said, and I'll just quote to you from last year's AMO's conference: "You won't have to wait for the province to legislate every time you want to do something new. This will give you flexibility to deal with a rapidly changing world, new developments and things you haven't even envisioned yet. Municipal authority to tax and make laws will be broadened," broad governmental powers to do those things without spelling out every little thing in minute detail.

That is exactly what you're doing in this act. You are going to tell municipalities what they can or cannot charge for. If you really believed in the autonomy of local government, you would simply allow municipalities to work with the developers and let them make their own arrangements and their own deals. We all know, however, you don't believe this.

The other thing that is kind of interesting about this is that you're the great believer in the Crombie commission and yet here you are cherry-picking: one idea that's a good one, and another one, such as this one, which you are not only totally renouncing but where you are going exactly 180 degrees in the opposite direction. It just doesn't make any sense at all. As a wise individual in this House said not too long ago, "A tax is a tax is a tax."

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): Who said that?

Mr Gerretsen: We could quote Hansard for that. Both the Premier and the now Speaker used to say that.

Here we are talking about increased taxation. We're talking about the property taxes of our province going up unduly. That's really what everything is all about. Whether we're talking about your general tax cut or the tax scheme of a 30% cut for most individuals who are making $100,000 or more or whether we're talking about the new user fees, a tax is a tax is a tax.

You have done this for one reason and one reason only, and that is in order to give something back to the developers of this province. The development industry must be very grateful for what you're doing for them.

You are ignoring Crombie, the committee that you set up yourself. You are not giving the municipalities the kind of flexibility that you said you would give them, that you told them you would give them in Bill 26, that you've been talking to them about over the last two AMO conferences you've attended.

Basically, Minister, I want you to come clean. I want you to tell the municipalities of Ontario: "We don't trust your decision-making powers. We'd love to download everything on you and we're going to download everything on you. We're not going to give you any more grants and subsidies." Tell the municipalities in this province that you're not going to give them any more subsidies or grants in the next couple of years because basically you don't believe in municipal government; you basically believe that everything should be regulated from above.

This is shameful legislation. You didn't listen to AMO. Where's AMO today? Are they sitting in the galleries? No, because they don't believe in it. Where's Mayor McCallion? Where is she? She doesn't believe in it either. Mr Minister, withdraw this --

The Speaker: Thank you very much.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): This government is travelling at illegal speeds day in and day out. They're introducing one bill after the other, giving very little time to the opposition parties to reflect and respond and giving very little time to communities to reflect on the daily changes that this government is introducing, causing a great deal of confusion, in my mind, that I don't believe is good for this government or good for the people of Ontario.

What this government is introducing today seems reasonable at first blush, although we haven't seen the bill and it was hastily called and we went and we got that briefing very, very quickly, again at illegal speeds. But we have a response here today and the response is the following: Yes, some of these charges are going to now be picked up by the municipalities. Some municipalities will pick up 10% of the cost for certain things and 30% of the cost for other things. Who do you think is going to pick up that cost for all these new services?

It's the taxpayer of Ontario, through the municipalities the taxpayer funds. This government has stopped funding municipalities for the last couple of years. In the two years this government has been in power it has cut municipal funding by 43%. When they say municipalities will have to pick up the cost for new services, who is going to pay for that? When they say "municipalities," they mean the taxpayer. That's what wrong with this balanced approach this government has introduced today.

They also have introduced something else: the mandatory exemption of industrial expansion for the first 50% of increase of the floor area. That's a tax break. That's a giveaway to their wealthy friends. As if the income tax cut was not enough for their wealthy friends, they've brought something in today that's going to assist them further to have a tax break.

Who do you think is going to pay for that expansion? When services are needed, it's not the big industrial sector that's going to pay for it; it's going to be the taxpayers and they're going to be paying for it through the cost of funding municipalities, naturally. It's the taxpayers who are going to be footing the bill, as the private sector is going to have, yet again, an early Christmas gift, although from this government they're on holiday it seems for every day of the year.

We've had a number of things in the past that have been done by various people. In a report done for the Golden task force, Pamela Blais estimates that urban sprawl costs the GTA taxpayers $1 billion a year. That in my view is something the government should have done in terms of implementing a report that deals very clearly with where we're wasting the money -- $1 billion in urban sprawl. If it wants to do something about the cost of new development, it should repeal Bill 20, its urban sprawl legislation, and bring back a system that will promote more compact development.

We would have had in my view greater savings had we done that than by doing what this government is doing. We are not going to be saving any money. The private sector is going to save a great deal of money, the industrial sector is going to save a lot of money, but the taxpayer is going to foot the bill.

If this industrial sector is expanding its operation beyond the 50% point, that industrial sector is going to be taxed that extra 5% or 10%, because the first 50% is exempt. That in my view is a tax break for the wealthy. The minister says they need that to be able to expand further and to create more work. What this will do is to give a tax break to the wealthy and will allow urban sprawl to continue, something that we attack as environmentally not very good, I argue, and something that will be very costly economically, socially and environmentally for the whole province.

I think this minister should reflect very carefully on what he has introduced today, as we will once we get this bill, and we're going to let the people of Ontario know that user fees are coming and that municipalities are going to have to spend more money because of what this government is doing as they get less and less from the government to do what is needed.

ESTIMATES

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Standing order 62(

a) provides that "the standing committee on estimates shall present one report with respect to all the estimates and supplementary estimates considered pursuant to standing orders 59 and 61 no later than the third Thursday in November of each calendar year."

The House not having received a report from the standing committee on estimates for certain ministries and offices on Thursday, November 21, 1996, as required by the standing orders of this House, pursuant to standing order 62(

b) the estimates and supplementary estimates before the committee, of the Ministry of Education and Training, the Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, the Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, the Ministry of Natural Resources, and the Office of Francophone Affairs are deemed to be passed by the committee and are deemed to be reported to and received by the House.

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): Could you explain that, please?

The Speaker: No, I couldn't.

CASE REPORT, OMBUDSMAN

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table the Ombudsman's case report in the matter of Ms C and the Ministry of Community and Social Services, pursuant to subsection 21(4) of the Ombudsman Act.

VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I would like to inform the members of the Legislative Assembly that we have in the opposition members' gallery today Mr Michael Farnworth, member of the Legislative Assembly for Port Coquitlam from the province of British Columbia. Welcome.

Further, we also have in the Speaker's gallery today the Information and Privacy Commissioner for the province of British Columbia, Mr David H. Flaherty, who happens to also be the brother of the learned colleague from Durham Centre. Welcome.

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Ottawa South): My question is for the Minister of Education. I want to raise with him the issue of the ads he placed in papers during the course of the weekend. I've got a copy of one here placed in the Toronto Star on Saturday. It takes up almost the entire page. It must have cost a lot of money.

Minister, my question for you today is a very simple one: How could you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, money that should have gone directly into the classroom, on full-page, feel good but say nothing ads? How could you waste this money that should have been spent in Ontario classrooms?

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): I want to thank the honourable member opposite for the question. I think, from the response that we have been getting over the course of the last day or so, that the public I have talked to across the province is very happy to hear a message: that Ontario is returning to some really clear, high standards for student achievement in our school system.

I believe that message is being well received across this province and I believe it's this government's obligation, and in fact we're fulfilling on that obligation, to inform the public of the direction in which we are taking education, a direction that emphasizes those standards of achievement that are critically important for the future of our students.

I think this ad contrasts very well with ads that have been taken by previous governments that were merely political dogma. This ad is there to inform the public. If you'll notice, sir -- you may not have taken time to notice -- it does not even include the minister's name unlike other political documents released by other parties.

Mr McGuinty: The minister I guess, as expected, is putting his own particular spin on it, but everybody who knows anything about anything knows that this is pure self-serving, old-fashioned politics and it's as simple as that.

We tried to find out exactly how many tax dollars were diverted from the classroom to pay for John Snobelen's self-serving ads, but his officials refuse to return our calls. Minister, I can understand why you would want to hide that figure. If I were you, I would be embarrassed. If I were you, I would be ashamed to know that I wasted somewhere between a quarter and half a million dollars on self-serving newspaper ads when at the very same time I was preparing to cut hundreds of millions more from schools.

Minister, given your past lectures to school boards on spending dollars outside the classroom, how can you possibly justify blowing a quarter to half a million dollars on newspaper ads? That money could have paid for one heck of a lot of textbooks, supplies and other educational materials. How could you do it?

Hon Mr Snobelen: The honourable member opposite is wrong, wrong on several fronts. Let me say first that our costs of these newspaper ads are about $135,000, which I think is a very minimal amount to spend to inform the public of these new, clear, high standards for achievement in our school system.

Perhaps the member opposite thinks it's bad news that we believe that by the end of grade 1 students should be able to read public signs and read simple story books. Perhaps the member opposite thinks that's not a message that the public of Ontario and the parents of Ontario need to hear. I think it is.

Mr McGuinty: That's $135,000 that should have been spent inside the classroom. To make matters worse, it's not the job of this minister to advertise that kind of stuff. We have people in the province who report on these kinds of things: the media. In fact, I've got a copy here of the Sunday Toronto Star, and it's extremely straight up. It says, "Snobelen's `Rigorous' School Curriculum," and it points out in a very simple and understandable way everything the minister's trying to do. You know what he paid for that? Not a cent. You didn't need to spend a dime on these things.

The fact of the matter is, you're not announcing anything new anyway. Free of charge, the newspapers had already covered your announcement, and those stories had more detailed information than your self-serving ads.

Minister, given your actions this weekend, given your decision to waste at least $135,000 on self-serving newspaper ads, will you admit that you were wrong, that you made a mistake? Will you admit that this blatant waste of educational dollars was the wrong message you wanted to send to students and their parents, who were astonished to learn that you had money for ads at the same time that you were making education cuts?

Hon Mr Snobelen: I want to say to the member opposite that I am proud of this announcement. I am proud to share these high standards with the public of Ontario. I'm proud that our work here to inform the public of what's going on in education is not a political message and it doesn't even contain the minister's name, directly opposed to what your government did in the past, sir. I'm very proud that in the announcement, if you had read it, sir, you would have found that this ministry is inviting the public to hold it to account. We intend to have a report on what the ministry's doing twice a year. I think that's public accountability and I think it's commendable.

ONTARIO CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTE

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Ottawa South): My second question is for the Minister of Correctional Services. In this weekend's paper I read about one of the jails to be closed by you, the Ontario Correctional Institute. Let me tell you about the OCI. It's lauded by experts internationally as one of the best-developed treatment centres in the world. Why? Because this centre treats inmates rather than just warehouse them. What that means for us is that when these people get out of jail, they're far less likely to be a danger to the public.

Minister, I'd like to ask you today, given their impressive record of rehabilitating prisoners, why are you closing the Ontario Correctional Institute?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I've indicated on a number of occasions that the per diem cost for incarceration in this province is the highest of any provincial jurisdiction in the country, an average of about $124 per day. We recognize the good work the institute does; in fact, we are going to be enhancing that through the infrastructure changes I have announced. We're going to have a new focus with respect to education and social programming; it's going to be done in other institutions indeed.

Again, it ties in very effectively with this government's efforts with respect to doing more for less in terms of taxpayers' dollars. We're very optimistic about the results we can achieve with the program we've announced.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, if something ain't broke, you're not supposed to fix it. This isn't a question of saving money; it's a question of public safety. Every one of these prisoners will be back among the public within two years' time. If they don't receive proper rehab, many will be released only to wreak havoc once again. Let me tell you about the OCI. According to one study, 35% of sex offenders from the institute commit no new crimes, compared with 80% of offenders from other jails who have received no treatment.

I want you to tell me how it is that your decisions to cut the cost of keeping prisoners, to close OCI and build prisons with no teachers and fewer councillors won't lead to more crime. Tell us how that's going to work.

Hon Mr Runciman: In fact, we do think it will work. Our answers are not comparable to Liberal answers, certainly, which during their tenure in office was to throw money at everything and double the spending of this province.

The fact is that through the program we've announced there's going to be a 33% increase in educational staff, a 20% increase in life skills and social program staff under the new infrastructure program. The reality is that provincial inmates are incarcerated for an average of 70 days, not a long time for formal education, and we are going to focus on the education building blocks -- literacy and numeracy -- which will aid offenders when they return to the community.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, you're not going to be able to replicate what's going on at OCI elsewhere. There's something very good taking place there. It's exemplary, it's recognized internationally, and we ought to be supporting it, not shutting it down.

You're talking about saving money, as usual. You're going to replace the OCI with so-called superjails. You're going to fire 1,400 jail guards and you're going to replace them with video cameras. Your plans to simply warehouse prisoners, all of whom will be back on the streets in less than two years' time, are going to cause more crime. We can't afford your savings.

Furthermore, how can you ignore a study that estimates $1.2 million can be saved in jail costs for every 100 inmates who go to the OCI because they reoffend at lower rates? Are you willing to tolerate more crime just to save money? Even at that, it's only money on a short-term basis.

Hon Mr Runciman: I'm not sure where this member gets his expertise with respect to corrections and the recidivism rates, but the fact is that under the program we've announced there's going to be a wider distribution of treatment and programming for inmates right across the system. We're trying to do a much more effective job than has been the case in the past. We recognize the efforts of the institute, but we're going to broaden those opportunities for inmates right across the system. We intend, at the end of the day, to have results that are much improved with respect to people returning to the system and costing the taxpayers additional dollars.

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Solicitor General as well. It concerns the events at Ipperwash Provincial Park. Too many questions remain unanswered regarding the sequence of events that led to the shooting of Dudley George at Ipperwash Park last September.

The Solicitor General denies political involvement, but the evidence of political involvement grows every day. Copies of the OPP logs have now become public. The police logs describe the political interference at Ipperwash. For example, the police logs show that on the night Dudley George was killed, Marcel Beaubien was at the command post for quite a long time. The log records show that Marcel Beaubien advised that he had sent a fax to the Premier advising the Premier of his intentions and that he wanted a phone call regarding his intentions.

Minister, you've always said there was no direct involvement, but your own police logs show there was. When are you going to call a public inquiry to finally get at the facts and the truth about Ipperwash?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I've indicated on a number of occasions that there are criminal proceedings under way; a number of civil actions have been initiated; there is a possibility of an inquest following the completion of these various other undertakings. I don't think anyone on the government side has ruled out the possibility of a public inquiry following the completion of all those matters.

Mr Hampton: We're not talking about an inquest here; we're talking about a public inquiry to get to the bottom of the government's story, which keeps changing. The Premier says he had no knowledge of anything other than what was in the newspaper, but we see from the police logs that there was direct contact with the Premier's office. The Solicitor General says he has no knowledge, but it's very clear from the police logs, which were reported on the weekend, that there was knowledge back and forth, there was discussion back and forth, there was information being shared back and forth.

It's a simple request, Minister. You have changed your story time and again in this Legislature on what happened at Ipperwash. It's time now to have a public inquiry to get to the bottom of this, to find out why someone died on September 6, 1995, and to find out about who was involved in it. Will you have that public inquiry?

Hon Mr Runciman: I think it's premature to conclude that the answers won't be provided following the completion of the criminal proceedings, the civil actions and, as I indicated, the possibility of an inquest. I don't think it would be responsible for anyone on this side of the House to commit to an inquiry at this stage in the process, until all of those proceedings have been completed.

Mr Hampton: This is not about those proceedings. We had the Premier in this House say that he would make available the faxes and the information that came from Mr Beaubien to the Premier's office. We've had the Solicitor General stand in this Legislature and say that he would make available, that he's not trying to hide anything. That all took place more than a couple of weeks ago, yet the government has produced nothing. In fact the Premier now says, "This might be subject to some information restrictions."

That's what we're asking for here. We want a public inquiry to clear up what happened between the Premier's office and Mr Beaubien and what happened between the Solicitor General's office and Mr Beaubien when Mr Beaubien was at the police command post the night Dudley George was murdered. That's what we want to know. We've heard from the police. We want to know what took place between your office and the Premier's office and Mr Beaubien, and you have not been forthcoming on any of that information. You have not provided those faxes, you have not responded to any of the questions in this House.

We want a public inquiry to finally get to the bottom of your involvement and the Premier's involvement. Let's have the public inquiry.

Hon Mr Runciman: The member says I have not been forthcoming. He posed the question, I think about two weeks ago, with respect to faxes. My staff have reviewed the inquiry that he put forward and I'm informed that the ministry log records one piece of correspondence in September 1995 from Mr Beaubien expressing concerns that taxpayers pay for police training. We have no further documents from Mr Beaubien at that time. The only other contact that I'm aware of with my office were calls re my travel arrangements for September 12 to meet with the residents in his community to hear public safety concerns.

LABOUR RELATIONS

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My second question is to the Minister of Labour. We'll get back to Ipperwash again because it's not going to go away. My question to the minister is this. You passed your legislation which now allows scabs to be used in workplaces across this province. I want to remind you of what's happening out there.

In Ottawa we have some of the most vulnerable people in society, the people who are cared for by the Ottawa Valley Autistic Homes and the Ottawa-Carleton Lifeskills authority. They are now using scabs. They are now saying to the dedicated workers, who used to look after autistic individuals and who used to look after individuals who are developmentally delayed and need a lot of help, that they have to accept less than $9.50 an hour, that they have to take a wage cut. Since those workers believe their work is more important than $9.50 an hour, those employers are now using scabs, scabs who are untrained, scabs who know nothing about how to care for autistic individuals.

Minister, what are you going to do to repair the situation that you have created out there?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Labour): I would just like to remind the leader that actually as a result of the changes we have made to the Labour Relations Act, in spite of the fact that we have had numerous agreements come to a conclusion this year -- in fact we had well over 3,000 -- we fortunately have had in this province labour peace, and certainly the changes that we have made to the Labour Relations Act have contributed to the labour peace. They have also contributed to the fact that the workplace parties are becoming more self-reliant in the resolution of their own disputes.

Mr Hampton: It's an interesting definition of labour peace that the Conservative government has. In fact, already this year 1.4 million person-days have been lost to lockouts and strikes, a lot worse than it has been.

I want to tell the minister, at the Ottawa-Carleton Lifeskills the 120 workers there have been locked out. This is not a strike situation. This is where the employer has locked them out and has said, "You take a wage cut below $9 an hour." With respect to the Ottawa Valley Autistic Homes, again it's an employer lockout. With respect to the Steelworkers Local 5297 in Ottawa, 300 people, it's a lockout by employers.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Question.

Mr Hampton: With respect to IATSE, the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees union with Cineplex Odeon, it's a lockout and they're demanding an 80% wage cut.

Minister, do you call that labour peace in the province of Ontario?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Mr Speaker, through you to the leader of the third party, I would simply share with you some information. You've talked about the fact that there are person-days lost and you feel that those days are too high. I would remind you that both Manitoba and British Columbia have higher rates of person-days lost as a percentage of total time worked for the first nine months of 1996, and I would also share with you the information that BC bans the use of replacement workers. So for you to suggest that it's the replacement worker ban that is contributing to the problems, that is not the case.

Mr Hampton: I draw the minister's attention again: 1.4 million person-days lost in Ontario as of September 30 of this year -- 1.4 million. That's what has been lost.

I want to give her some other examples. For example, Goldcorp in Red Lake, Ontario, 186 workers, and the employer is using scabs, an employer which has a terrible environmental record, not just in Canada but in the United States and elsewhere, which owes millions of dollars in back taxes and by its own admission operates the most unsafe mine in Ontario. Again, a situation where the employer is using scabs. CAW Local 252, Bramalea Rebuilders, 75 workers; again, the employer is using scabs. Or let's go to Metropolitan Toronto Association for Community Living, 800 workers, and again, scabs are being used.

Minister, is this a labour and employment record in Ontario that you are proud of? Are you proud of using scabs to lower people's wages and working conditions?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I would respond to the leader of the third party in this way. You are deliberately distorting the facts. As I have just pointed out to you --

Mr Hampton: On a point of privilege, Speaker: These were all reported in the newspaper. The minister --

The Speaker: Minister of Labour.

Hon Mrs Witmer: I would point out to you that when it comes to the loss of person-days that both Manitoba --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Minister of Labour.

Hon Mrs Witmer: I would point out that when it comes to the number of person-days lost, both Manitoba and British Columbia have a much higher rate than we do in this province and, as I indicated to you, British Columbia actually has a ban on replacement workers, so obviously that's not having an effect. I would also tell you that our strikes this year in 1996 in the first 10 months are only 113 compared to 129, which will probably result in us having one of the lowest number of strikes in the last decade. Now, the one point that you need --

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): You brought violence to those picket lines.

The Speaker: Member for Hamilton Centre.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Member for Hamilton Centre, come to order, please.

Hon Mrs Witmer: The one point that you seem to conveniently not be addressing is the reason for the person-days lost high number that you say is so high is the fact that for the first time in the history of this province OPSEU was given the opportunity to strike. That was you that gave them the right.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: As I understand your ruling, it is now in order for the opposition to observe that the Minister of Labour deliberately distorted this situation. Is that correct?

The Speaker: With respect to the member for Algoma, if you accuse a member of distorting the situation, I'm not going to rule you out of order, no.

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Premier and it has to do with the Ipperwash Provincial Park incident where a native died for the first time in 100 years in a land claim dispute. As more and more information comes out, it is clear there was extensive political interference by your government in this very sensitive police operation.

The report on the weekend from the paper points out that your member Mr Beaubien arrived at the police command post only hours after the beginning of this, informing the police he was going to phone you, Premier. Mr Beaubien goes on to state later on that he doesn't mind taking controversy if the police services can't handle this situation.

The report goes on to point out that the Solicitor General's office didn't feel the situation was being handled properly. Then Mr Beaubien states, and you have not denied this and I assume it's true, that he sent you, Premier, a fax outlining his intentions -- in other words, what Mr Beaubien was going to do with the police involving the natives in this particular situation -- and was awaiting a reply back from you.

In light of all of this inappropriate, unacceptable political interference by you and the rest of your government members, will you now agree to a public inquiry so we can get at the root of this political interference by you and your government?

Hon Michael D. Harris (Premier): I am tempted to refer to deliberate distortion of the facts because that's what we've just heard from this member repeatedly on the whole situation of Ipperwash. Let me make it very clear that there has been no political interference and that to draw any other conclusion is a distortion of the facts.

I want to make it clear and repeat that as far as police operations, there has been no interference in anything that's gone on -- we've indicated that to you -- either by myself or by any members of our staff. As has been indicated by the Attorney General and by the Solicitor General, because there are a number of cases pending here, as soon as we're advised that it's appropriate, we're happy to release information and we've not ruled out a public inquiry.

Mr Phillips: Here's the problem, Premier, and I'll be as direct as I can with you. We asked you if you knew of what was going on at Ipperwash in terms of the police buildup. You said you did not, nor did your staff. We then found out that wasn't the truth. We found that Mr Beaubien had informed your staff. You said you weren't aware that Mr Beaubien had visited the police command post. In fact, he had on several occasions and had been in touch with your office. You said you would release the faxes that Mr Beaubien sent you -- that's what you told the House -- and now you refuse to release them.

The problem is that frankly we don't trust you on this matter. We want to see a public inquiry into this matter so we can get at the root of this political interference in this. I gave you the examples. It's here for you in the paper, Premier. There was political interference. Mr Beaubien was at that police command post on at least four occasions, was there without any question, and was telling them he was in touch with you.

I repeat, Premier, because we don't want you to wait a year and then say you're not going to have a public inquiry: There is enough evidence already to call for that public inquiry. Will you commit today to a public inquiry so we can get at the root of this political interference?

Hon Mr Harris: There's absolutely nothing that I have seen printed in the paper or heard, other than any deliberate misrepresentation of the facts, that would cause me to conclude other than that there's been no political interference, there's been no intervention. There has been a member very concerned, as would any member be, about a difficult situation in his riding, trying to find information for his constituents. However, we've indicated we're very unhappy with what happened at Ipperwash. Surely nobody is happy with that.

When the law cases are settled, or if the lawyers tell us it's appropriate to release information sooner, I've said I have no problem with any of the information being released. As soon as the lawyers tell me we'll not be interfering with the justice system or a fair trial for anybody who is now being tried or any of those cases, I'd be happy to do so.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): My question is to the Attorney General. For three months now you have been deliberately distorting the facts with respect to the family support plan in this province and the bungled mess that you caused.

I have another case today. This is another case of a family support plan file that has been lost in the black hole of Downsview. Susan Wilkins, a brand-new registrant, had a court order for $1,300 per month for the support of her three children issued in July. The papers were filed with the family support plan on August 2. She has not received one penny. She's called numerous times. My office has faxed the MPP line. None of us has received a response.

On Monday last she called her ex-husband's employer and found out that they'd not even received a garnishee order at this point in time, these many months later. She called your office. Your office checked with the family support plan and were told they couldn't get an answer until they found her file. On Wednesday they called and told her that her file was at Downsview, that it would be ordered, it would arrive on Thursday, she'd have her answer. It's Monday -- no answer. She's left messages at your offices today to try and get an answer. Minister, she's got three children. She and her children are owed over $7,500. Her husband is --

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Attorney General.

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): I will check that and find out what the status of that case is and report back to the member.

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): Maybe while the minister is checking that case, he can check this one as well, another case where we have a problem due directly to the cuts you made to the family support plan office in August by laying off 290 staff and by closing the regional offices.

Rob Sutherland has a court order which is adjusted when he goes on UIC. Specifically, his support is reduced to $100 and the WCB, that he normally pays from the pension of $450, is cancelled when he is on UIC. Since August, he's been on UIC. Every two weeks we have been faxing his UIC stubs from my office to the family support plan to prove that he's unemployed and to try to get the support payment adjustment. To date, the adjustment has not been made. He is owed $450 for August, September, October and November.

The additional problem is that he's been trying to open a new UIC claim. He was told by his UIC worker last week that the UIC cannot open his claim because the justice department cannot reach the family support plan office in order to confirm the details of his support order.

I say to you, Minister, can you tell me why you're financing the tax cut on the back of Rob Sutherland and his 11-year-old son?

Hon Mr Harnick: Again I can't comment on an individual case, but what I can tell you is that the Mothers Against Fathers in Arrears were very clear and want me to remind you --

Ms Martel: For four months they've been faxing statements every two weeks.

Hon Mr Harnick: -- that your own government chose to ignore this very issue and failed to pass legislation that was needed then and is needed now.

Ms Lankin: That is not the same issue. You are deliberately distorting the facts.

The Speaker: Order. Members for Sudbury East and Beaches-Woodbine, come to order, please.

Hon Mr Harnick: I might also tell you that last week, $8.3 million was paid out of the family support plan. So far in November, 88,224 people have been recipients of $27 million that has come out of the family support plan.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I'll warn the member for Sudbury East; I'm warning the members for Cochrane North and Windsor-Sandwich too. Come to order.

Hon Mr Harnick: As a result, you can see that considerable increases in money are being paid out of the family support plan and I would hope that everyone will receive their money and begin to receive it in a timely way.

The Speaker: New question.

Ms Lankin: It's your responsibility. Why don't you make sure --

The Speaker: Member for Beaches-Woodbine, that's the final warning.

Ms Lankin: Well, first --

The Speaker: No, no. That's the third and final one.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

Mr Ted Arnott (Wellington): My question is for the Minister of Labour. It's been brought to my attention that last Thursday there was a press conference here at Queen's Park hosted by the NDP labour critic and members of the Ontario Federation of Labour and the Ontario Network of Injured Workers. It's my understanding that at this press conference several unfair statements were made regarding the government's plans to reform the Workers' Compensation Board, unfair allegations regarding the deindexation of pension benefits for injured workers. Will the minister clarify this important matter for members of the House?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Labour): I want to indicate that we do take the issue of reform of the workers' compensation system very seriously. Unfortunately, the issue of deindexation was treated in a very inaccurate manner last Thursday. There was the implication that it would be this government that would be totally responsible for deindexation. We know that is not the case. The deindexation first occurred under the NDP through the introduction of Bill 165, when you removed $18.1 billion from the hands of 125,000 injured workers. I think it's absolutely essential that we correct the record.

Mr Arnott: I participated in those hearings on Bill 165 and I'm shocked that the NDP would blame the Progressive Conservative government for a policy that they initiated while they were in power, in an effort to arrest their flagging popularity.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): The member for Cochrane South, come to order. The member for Halton Centre, come to order.

Mr Arnott: My supplementary to the Minister of Labour is this: Is she aware of any other unfair allegations contained in the information package, distributed with the endorsement of the NDP last week?

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): Are you giving $6 billion to your corporate friends?

The Speaker: Member for Hamilton Centre, come to order.

Hon Mrs Witmer: Unfortunately, there were many errors in the presentation of the material on Thursday. One of them was the fact that our assessment rates were low. That is simply not the case. At $3, our assessment rates are the second-highest in Canada. We are second only to Newfoundland, which has a higher rate.

Also, there was mention made that the board had a surplus this year of $510 million. Yes, that is so, and fortunately that's good news, but what they did not mention is the fact that between 1991 and 1995 the NDP removed over $1.65 billion from the WCB investment fund to cover their annual benefit costs. This unsustainable policy threatens the future benefits of injured workers, and we simply cannot allow that to continue.

RENT REGULATION

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): My question is to the minister who doesn't want to be in housing, the Minister of Housing.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): There is no minister by that name. You'll have to come up with the correct title in order to put your question.

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): He did.

The Speaker: Order. There's only one Minister of Housing, and that's not what I heard. If you want to put it correctly, you can.

Mr Curling: To the Minister of Housing. Is that all right, Mr Speaker?

The Speaker: That's fine.

Mr Curling: This morning, I sponsored a press conference where the Cooperative Housing Federation of Canada and the Coalition to Save Tenants' Rights released this report on the affordability of rental housing in Ontario. The results are clear: More people are having a harder time paying their rent than ever before. More than 220,000 people in Ontario are spending half their income on rent. With the cuts from your government since taking office, those who rely on social assistance are getting hit on all sides. About a third of tenants are on some form of social assistance, and you're hitting them again with the rent hikes that will come with your bill.

It's an absolute fallacy that your tenant protection bill will help tenants. Only you say that it's going to be more affordable. You're taking rental units --

The Speaker: Thank you.

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): That's a very interesting report. If there was ever a document that showed that the existing system isn't working, it's this one. All the numbers in this report relate from 1990 to 1994 and they do show that tenants were not getting a good deal, that rents were out of control. Who was in power from 1990 to 1994? Not this government.

I can now point out to you that there was a report put out by CMHC that indicates that the demand for rental housing in Toronto between 1996 and 2001 will drop. The situation is getting better.

Mr Curling: When this minister stands up and says it is affordable for people to have rental units here, you know it is not affordable here at all. Tenants are finding it very difficult to rent. You have called this tenant protection legislation. This is really a tenant harassment act. How does a tenant go to a landlord when they have roaches, when they have poor heating facilities, when the stove doesn't work? Could you tell me that? Will you withdraw this Bill 96 that does not protect tenants but gives a wealth of opportunities to landlords?

Hon Mr Leach: Again, all the numbers and all the information the member is referring to are based on a report using data between 1990 and 1994. The bill we've introduced is correcting much of that and is bringing in a system that is fair and is equitable and works. It works for tenants and it works for landlords. The availability of rental units is increasing. It's up by 50% in the last month, which shows that people have confidence in the direction this government is going in.

The Speaker: New question, the member for Fort York.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): My question is to M. Leach, the Minister of Housing. Minister, last Thursday you tabled the landlord protection act, the act that will cause rents to go up for thousands and thousands of tenants. Oh, it will do that, Minister. You've taken controls off the apartments when tenants move out, and your own economist, M. Lampert, said that over a five-year period 70% of all tenants move -- that means 70% of all tenants will get a rent increase -- and you've made tenants sitting ducks, who will be facing anywhere from 7% to 10% increases.

This study done for the co-op housing federation by Lapointe Consulting points to a growing affordability problem. This study is very relevant. It says that 36% -- listen, Minister; you're not listening -- of all tenant households now have trouble affording their rent. It's a very recent study. Some 36% have trouble affording their rent. That's 540,000 households. What do you say to the 540,000 households whose rent will go up and up under your plan?

Hon Mr Leach: Again I'll have to point out for the members of the third party that this is a report that's based on information from when they were in power. The data are absolutely irrelevant to what's going to happen with the future. We're bringing in a system that is going to bring fairness and equity back into the rental housing business. If they would get real recent results from CMHC, which were released last Friday, they would show that the availability of rental stock is increasing and things are getting a whole lot better for tenants.

Mr Marchese: The minister is not listening. That's a big part of the problem. This study is very relevant and it says -- I don't know how he can discount it -- that 36% of all tenant households have trouble affording their rent. How can you discount that? They're real figures. That means it's a reality. The reality hasn't disappeared. The only way this bill will make rents go down is if it means the market is suddenly flooded with affordable rental housing.

Well, that's not going to happen. You are not building, you and your government. You've destroyed the Rental Housing Protection Act, which means more rental housing will disappear, and the private sector is not building. They've told us that. Phil Dewan, the head of the landlord lobby, says this legislation will not make them build and developers and landlords told the legislative committee last summer that gutting rent controls won't make them build either.

I asked you Thursday and I'm going to ask you again: Name the landlords or developers who are going to build affordable rental housing in the GTA because of your legislation. Just name one.

Hon Mr Leach: I can tell the honourable member, and I said this when we went to hearings last August, that this legislation, on its own merit, is not going to create a housing boom. We never said it would; in fact, we said just the opposite.

What we said it will do is that this legislation, in conjunction with the other changes we're going to make that you didn't bother to address, like addressing the property tax situation, which is the biggest drain that tenants face -- 40% of their rent goes in property taxes and that issue has to be addressed -- that, in conjunction with two or three other changes we're proposing to make, will generate growth. We have commitment to see that growth happen.

SALES TAX HARMONIZATION

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener): My question is for the Minister of Finance. Minister, on Friday I read in the newspaper that you've reiterated that Ontario is not interested in harmonizing our provincial sales tax with the federal GST. But then I also read that the federal government is still working on its harmonization plans. Now, we are or we aren't. Is Ontario continuing to talk with the federal government about harmonization? If not, why not?

Hon Ernie L. Eves (Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance): We have received no new offer from the federal government for many months now on sales tax harmonization. The offer that is on the table, and the one that quite frankly the three Atlantic provinces agreed to, would in our estimation shift approximately $2 billion of taxation from the backs of businesses on to consumers in Ontario. That is not on as far as we are concerned. It would also broaden the base considerably on items that would be subject to tax that are not taxed now in the province, and that's unacceptable.

Mr Wettlaufer: Recently the premiers of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Newfoundland were in Toronto and they announced that harmonization would create an Atlantic advantage for their investors. If the deal is not good for Ontario, how can it be so advantageous for those three eastern provinces which have chosen to participate?

Hon Mr Eves: First of all, as the member knows, I presume, and other members know, the federal government is paying those three Atlantic provinces almost $1 billion to subsidize them for their lack of revenue over the next four years, which they will be losing. Secondly, you may have read or heard in media reports last week that one particular department store chain in New Brunswick alone has closed five stores and claims that they're looking at closing another seven stores simply because of the cost of implementing the new combined, harmonized PST-GST tax.

Things like home heating fuel for the average consumer in those Atlantic provinces will go up $160 a year. The price of purchasing a new home will go up by $3,000 or $4,000 a year. Other personal services will go up substantially because items are now being taxed that weren't being taxed before. That in fact is leading to the loss of jobs in those three Atlantic provinces. We are not interested in losing jobs in the province of Ontario; we're interested in creating jobs.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): My question is to the Attorney General. Minister, on Thursday in response to a question in the House, your colleague the minister responsible for women's issues acknowledged very clearly the fact that in January your government was aware of the problems you were going to incur as a result of shutting down the regional offices and opening up your 1-800 office out of Downsview. You had a document January 18, a business plan that clearly told you there was going to be a reduction in service. People, women and children 90% of the recipients, would have been affected. Your colleague brought it to your attention as well in January.

Can you explain to this House how you allowed this gross mismanagement and incompetence with regard to the handling of the shutting down of these offices and the damage that you have inflicted on women on children? You knew in January, as your colleague acknowledged on Thursday. What have you done about it?

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): What we have done about it is we have ensured that in the first three weeks of November, $27 million was paid out to 88,224 recipients. Last week $8.3 million was paid out to 27,425 recipients. This weekend, 297 MPP inquiries were dealt with, out of which 12 required follow-up, which is being done this morning. We also are able now to process more than 5,000 transactions a day, up 25% in productivity over where we ever were. So that's what we've done to date.

Mr Agostino: The response and the attitude of this minister shows clearly the arrogance and the incompetence of you as minister and of your ministry in handling this particular transition. Minister, how can you sit there and continue to tell us the plan is working? In my own office we have over 80 cases that are still outstanding. You knew in January but you deliberately allowed the battering and beating up of women and children in Ontario to continue because of your incompetence and your failure to fix the plan.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Member for Hamilton East, it's out of order to suggest that the minister deliberately allowed the battering and beating up of innocent women. I would ask that you withdraw.

Mr Agostino: I withdraw. What the minister has done is deliberately allow women and children to suffer in this province as a result of the change you have made to the plan. One quick example: I have a constituent from Thorold, a gentleman who called my office. He gets $200 a month withdrawn from his bank account to go to his wife and two children he is paying support to. Two weeks later this $200 cheque was sent back to him to put back in his own bank account. They're not getting the money.

Minister, will you do the honourable thing in view of the fact that you have known since January and resign and allow this plan to get fixed by another minister who is more competent than you are?

Hon Mr Harnick: We are taking steps now to take a plan that didn't work very well, that was $1 billion in arrears, and we're moving it into a new plan that we hope will provide much better coverage for people who depend on the plan. We are now processing cheques within 24 to 36 hours. Under the old plan, where so many of these cheques were being done manually, this could take up to a week. As I've indicated, we have increased by 25% the productivity in allowing us to increase productivity to put more cheques through the system.

We're contacting 2,000 employers who have over five payors on their payroll in order to make sure that they send cheques through properly so they can be involved in electronic banking and thus enhance the ability to speed up payments and thus make the plan a better plan.

PARENT-SCHOOL ASSOCIATION

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. On November 7 you were questioned in this House about a phone call your executive assistant placed on your behalf to the firm Cassels Brock and Blackwell. The phone call concerned a letter that a lawyer with the firm, Brian Donovan, had written to the Who Does What subpanel on education financing on behalf of a group of parents from Franklin community school in my riding.

They were concerned that a panel which was in a position to be advocating some drastic changes to the education system in this province was operating in the dark in secret locations, with secret terms of reference and with no representation from the education sector in Metro Toronto.

Your response to the question that day was that the concerns of these parents "seemed so frivolous." Minister, can you tell this House today what supreme authority gives you the right to deem the concerns of those parents, concerns that might shortly be before the courts, frivolous?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I think when anybody wants to try and take somebody to court for providing advice, it doesn't seem very appropriate to me. I also think it's very appropriate that when you get a letter from a law firm that's threatening to take legal action on a process that's under way, it's an appropriate thing to do to call that law firm and inquire what this is all about. And that's what I said before. We called the law firm and said, "Are you serious?" The law firm --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Minister.

Hon Mr Leach: The principals of the law firm said they didn't know anything about the matter and that's the last we heard of it.

Ms Churley: Minister, I can assure you this is not the last you will have heard of it. You don't seem to understand how serious this situation is. This is about citizens' rights to due process being denied, because at the very least an implicit threat was made on your behalf.

This is the situation: We'll never get to know whether the courts would have agreed with your assessment of these concerns as being frivolous because the actions of your staff, operating on your behalf, had the effect -- claims Mr Donovan and he's saying this. As you know, he no longer has a job there. He was pulled off the case by the firm after that phone call made on your behalf. The Franklin group never had the chance to make their case for an injunction because of the action of your executive assistant acting on your behalf. It sent a chill through the firm of Cassels Brock and Blackwell.

We don't know what was said, but it had at the very least the appearance of a threat. Minister, what was said in that phone call to Cassels Brock and Blackwell?

Hon Mr Leach: The lawyer in question is still a lawyer. I assume there was nothing to stop him from proceeding with the action. There's nothing to stop him now from proceeding with the action if he feels it's appropriate.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Member for Cochrane South. Minister?

Hon Mr Leach: There's nothing to stop the individual in question from taking action now if he chooses to.

Ms Churley: They've reported, Al. It's too late. The subcommittee reported.

Hon Mr Leach: Then you could obviously see that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the action. There's no way you can take action against somebody from providing advice. The Crombie panel doesn't make any decisions; it makes recommendations and provides advice. We make the decisions.

ONTARIO FEDERATION OF AGRICULTURE

Mr Toby Barrett (Norfolk): I wish to question the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Last week, Minister Villeneuve attended the 1996 convention of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. I also attended, as did other rural MPPs from both sides of the House. I have received feedback from farmers as a result of your presentation, Minister, to the OFA. Much of the input I received concerned crop insurance, safety net programs and how the plans for the development of AgriCorp are coming, to take responsibility for these kinds of programs. What feedback have you received with respect to AgriCorp and also with respect to other deliberations at the Ontario Federation of Agriculture?

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): I want to thank my colleague for that question. Yes, I was very pleased to attend the Ontario Federation of Agriculture annual meeting last week. It was one of the most successful annual meetings the federation has ever had, with a very large attendance.

On AgriCorp, the agricultural community is quite prepared and able to take into their own hands and look after what they need. I certainly feel that's where the responsibility lies.

I want to congratulate the OFA president, Tony Morris, for his acclamation. I want to congratulate the new and returning executive who were elected last week. I promise, as do all of our colleagues, to work with the OFA for the betterment and continuing to keep our food producers on the leading edge, which is where they are.

Mr Barrett: The minister will no doubt remember that in the Common Sense Revolution's rural economic development task force we promised Ontario's food producers that we would work towards strengthening Ontario's Farm Practices Protection Act, more commonly referred to as the right-to-farm bill.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Would you come to order, please. Thank you. Go ahead.

Mr Barrett: A few months ago the Ontario Federation of Agriculture submitted a draft right-to-farm bill to the minister. Could the minister tell this House if any work is being done to ensure that farmers have proper protection against nuisance complaints?

Hon Mr Villeneuve: Yes, the OFA did present a draft bill and it's certainly in the direction this government wants to go. We must provide more protection to our farmers and our food producers. They are a very important sector of our economy. Any country or any province that has let its agriculture go down will stand to suffer. This government has brought in new money, $15 million of the Grow Ontario program. We've brought in a rebate on sales tax, $20-plus million.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: It's difficult to get the attention of the NDP, particularly because they always have their own agenda. I want to remind them that they were the government that shut down two of our five agricultural colleges and then gave us a $50-billion debt to boot. That's what they did, and now they sanctimoniously try to give us advice. We have to take it with a little grain of salt.

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): My question is for the Minister of Health. Last year you announced an 18% cut in hospital budgets. You know and I know and all members of the House know that this has resulted in nurse layoffs, replacement of registered nurses with less qualified staff and difficulties in access to services.

Minister, let me tell you about Angelina Marrone.

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): Put it on Hansard.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Minister of Agriculture, would you come to order, please.

Interjection.

The Speaker: And the member for Hamilton East, come to order.

Mrs Caplan: I'll tell you about Angelina Marrone. This 69-year-old grandmother was admitted to hospital on November 2 with chest pains. It was determined almost immediately that she required an angiogram to diagnose the severity of her heart condition, but the doctors encountered obstacle after obstacle. In the interim, her condition worsened and she was transferred to an intensive care unit in the same hospital on November 15.

Her family is here today in the gallery. They have just learned that she is being transferred to a hospital where she can get her angiogram, but they are concerned because she has already been bumped twice. They want to know what you say to her and to her family and others. Is this what people can expect --

The Speaker: Member for Oriole, thank you. Minister of Health.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): I know the federal government has cut health care, but we have not. Second, there have been no cuts to the cardiac program at all through hospital budgets; it is a fully protected program. We have increased cardiac surgeries in this province by 19%, or almost 1,500 surgeries, and we have the shortest waiting lists in Canada.

This government has got rid of waste and duplication, and soon we'll take other steps to make sure that we have a more efficient system and that we drive dollars towards patient care. We've done that in cardiac, and we've taken great strides to reduce the waiting list and increase the capacity so we have a better system and people can be looked after on a timely basis. You don't tell your constituents we've cut health care, because you know that is blatantly untrue.

Mrs Caplan: There's $1.3 billion in hospital cuts, and that's the truth and that's what gets you in trouble.

Hon Mr Wilson: It's federal government cuts by $2 billion. Stop playing games.

The Speaker: The member for Oriole and the Minister of Health. Minister of Health, you must withdraw that last comment. You can't tell somebody it's blatantly untrue.

Hon Mr Wilson: I withdraw.

Mrs Caplan: And resign.

The Speaker: Member for Oriole.

Interjections.

The Speaker: I might have a problem with that one, but at least you withdrew. Thank you.

PETITIONS

NORTH YORK BRANSON HOSPITAL

Mr Monte Kwinter (Wilson Heights): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee has recommended that North York Branson Hospital merge with York-Finch hospital; and

"Whereas this recommendation will remove emergency and inpatient services currently provided by North York Branson Hospital, which will seriously jeopardize medical care and the quality of health for the growing population which the hospital serves, many being elderly people who in numerous cases require treatment for life-threatening medical conditions;

"We petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to reject the recommendation contained within the final report of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council hospital restructuring committee as it pertains to North York Branson Hospital, so that it retains, at minimum, emergency and inpatient services."

I have affixed my signature.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have petitions forwarded to me by Karen Rabideau, who's the union counsellor of the Glass, Molders, Pottery, Plastics and Allied Workers International Union, Local 93B. The petition reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Harris government has begun a process to open the Occupational Health and Safety Act of Ontario; and

"Whereas this act is the single most important piece of legislation for working people since it is designed to protect our lives, safety and health while at work and allow us to return home to our families in the same condition in which we left; and

"Whereas the government has made it clear they intend to water down the act and weaken the rights of workers under the law, including the right to know, the right to participate and especially the right to refuse; and

"Whereas this government has already watered down proper training of certified committee members;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario not to alter the Occupational Health and Safety Act or erode the rights of workers any further and ensure strict enforcement of the legislation."

I add my name to theirs.

PUBLIC LIBRARIES

Mr Harry Danford (Hastings-Peterborough): I have a petition on behalf of a number of my constituents.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas we believe that provincial interest in public libraries in Ontario is fundamental to the rights of all Ontarians;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to maintain the provincial interest in public libraries by ensuring the continuance of the following:

"(1) grants to ensure that all Ontarians have equalized access to library materials and services;

"(2) coordination of resource-sharing programs such as interlibrary loan and Internet access;

"(3) policy to ensure the future of the network of Ontario public libraries;

"(4) provincial assistance directly to libraries at the service level, for example, through Southern Ontario Library Service and Ontario Library Service-North;

"(5) legislation that maintains the autonomy of public library boards."

I affix my signature.

LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD OF ONTARIO

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition that reads as follows:

"Whereas the government of Ontario appears to be moving towards the privatization of retail liquor and spirit sales in the province; and

"Whereas the LCBO provides a safe, secure and controlled way of retailing alcoholic beverages; and

"Whereas the LCBO provides the best method of restricting the sale of liquor to minors in Ontario; and

"Whereas the LCBO has an excellent program of quality control of the products sold in its stores; and

"Whereas the LCBO provides a wide selection of product to its customers in modern, convenient stores; and

"Whereas the LCBO has moved forward with the times, sensitive to the needs of its customers and its clients; and

"Whereas the LCBO is an important instrument for the promotion and sale of Ontario wines and thereby contributes immensely to grape growing and the wine-producing industry;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the government of Ontario abandon its plan to turn over the sale of liquor and spirits to private liquor stores and retain the LCBO for this purpose."

I affix my signature and hand this petition to Lauren Kennedy of St Denis Elementary School in St Catharines.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly from the municipality of Sault Ste Marie and it goes like this:

"Whereas occupational health and safety is a priority for the workers in the city of Sault Ste Marie and district; and

"Whereas occupational injuries and illnesses impact not on just the injured parties but on the community as a whole; and

"Whereas the WCB direct payment for most workers will be intimidating and the human and financial cost of injury and disease will increase and be moved over to the workers and their families; and

"Whereas the proposed changes to the act weaken the rights of workers under the law, including the right to know, the right to participate and especially the right to refuse;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the city of Sault Ste Marie petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario not to alter the Occupational Health and Safety Act and WCB act without proper consultation and not to erode the rights of all workers and to ensure strict enforcement of the legislation."

This was moved and seconded by Councillors Ed Szczepanik and Wayne Deluca, and I add my name to it.

EDUCATION

Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): I have a petition signed by approximately 350 residents in my riding. This petition concerns school councils and the general approach of the government to education, and I'll file it now.

RENT REGULATION

Mr Mario Sergio (Yorkview): I have received another petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario with respect to the removal of rent control and I wish to read it to the House.

"Whereas the government of Ontario has announced its intention to remove rent control from apartments that become vacant so that landlords can charge whatever rent they want; and

"Whereas the government's proposed law will eliminate rent control on new buildings and allow landlords to pass on repair bills and other costs to tenants; and

"Whereas the government's proposal will make it easier for landlords to demolish buildings and easier to convert apartments to condominiums; and

"Whereas due to the zero vacancy rate in Metro Toronto the removal of rent control will cause extreme hardship for seniors and tenants on fixed incomes and others who cannot afford their homes;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario to keep the existing system of rent control."

I agree with the petitioners and I will affix my signature to it.

TAX REDUCTION

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): I have a petition from 20 people who are urging this government to stop the cuts to the Ontario poor and urging the people of Ontario watching to express their conscientious objection to the tax cut. This is a petition to the Legislature of Ontario and it reads:

"We, the undersigned, request that the Legislature of Ontario not approve any tax cuts until the causes of poverty and unemployment in Ontario are dealt with effectively and until the province's debt and deficit are paid down."

I affix my name to this petition.

SNOWMOBILE REGISTRATION

Mr John O'Toole (Durham East): It's my pleasure to rise today to present a petition to the Legislature of Ontario and also to the Minister of Transportation, Al Palladini, Solicitor General Bob Runciman, and the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism, Mr Bill Saunderson:

"Whereas the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs contributes in a significant way to the tourism and economy of Ontario; and

"Whereas the snowmobile clubs are very conscious of the safe operation and maintenance of their machines;

"Whereas the snowmobile operators spend thousands of dollars on these machines;

"Whereas these expensive modern machines usually have decals with names and other decorative lettering;

"Whereas the current MTO-issued registration numbers are not complementary to the other lettering on the machines;

"We, therefore, petition the Legislature of Ontario to amend the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act, Revised Statutes of Ontario for 1990,

chapter 44, regulation 804,

section 23, subsections (3), (4) and (5), and allow the operators to affix their own registration numbers at their own expense."

I am pleased to sign my name to this petition.

SCHOOL BUS SAFETY

Mr Pat Hoy (Essex-Kent): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the 800,000 children who ride the school buses of Ontario are at risk and their safety is in jeopardy from unsafe drivers who are not stopping for school buses; and

"Whereas the current school bus law is difficult to enforce since not only is a licence plate number required but positive identification of the driver and vehicle as well, which makes it extremely difficult to obtain a conviction;

"Therefore,

be it resolved, that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That private member's Bill 78 be passed. The bill doubles the existing range of fines for identified drivers and establishes vehicle owner liability.

"We ask for the support of all members of the Legislature."

I have affixed my name to this petition.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have a petition signed by members of Local 358 of the UFCW and the UBWW, United Brewers Warehousing Workers. The petition reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas it is vital that occupational health and safety services provided to workers be conducted by organizations in which workers have faith; and

"Whereas the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers have provided such services on behalf of workers for many years; and

"Whereas the centre and clinics have made a significant contribution to improvements in workplace health and safety and the reduction of injuries, illnesses and death caused by work,

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to oppose any attempt to erode the structure, services or funding of the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers; and

"Further, we, the undersigned, demand that education and training of Ontario workers continue in its present form through the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and that professional and technical expertise and advice continue to be provided through the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers."

As I'm in support of this petition, I add my name to theirs.

SALE OF AMMUNITION

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey-Owen Sound): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the NDP government under former Premier Bob Rae passed legislation, Bill 181, the Ammunition Regulation Act, placing restrictions on the sale of ammunition in Ontario; and

"Whereas the provisions contained in Bill 181 are time-consuming, onerous and create unnecessary red tape; and

"Whereas the records for which these provisions have been produced do not track criminals; and

"Whereas Bill 181 was passed in only one day, without any discussion with law-abiding gun owners such as farmers, collectors, hunters and recreational shooters, who understand and have a deep respect for the power of firearms and ammunition and the need to maintain the use of their equipment in the safest of conditions; and

"Whereas Bill 181 will do nothing to combat the use of illegal ammunition;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to repeal Bill 181, protect the rights of responsible firearms owners and work for tougher penalties against weapons offences."

I have also signed this.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): I have a petition that's been signed by 3,000 people:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Health Services Restructuring Commission has recommended the closure of two acute-care hospitals in Sudbury; and

"Whereas the overall number of available beds will be reduced by approximately 35%; and

"Whereas the reduction in beds will affect Sudbury's ability to remain the referral centre for health care in northeastern Ontario; and

"Whereas there will be a large number of layoffs in the health profession, impacting the quality of local health care and our Sudbury economy; and

"Whereas the global annual budget for Sudbury health care will be reduced by 25%;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to rescind the Health Services Restructuring Commission's recommendation to close two acute-care Sudbury hospitals."

To date, there have been 18,304 signatures, and I affix my name to it.

CHILD CARE

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I have a petition here signed by literally hundreds of people from my riding and the riding of Algoma to the Legislature of Ontario. It goes like this:

"Whereas child care is an essential service and children should not be used to make money; and

"Whereas reducing current standards to minimal building codes compromises the safety of children; and

"Whereas providing funding to the private sector will lead to reduced accountability for tax dollars; and

"Whereas children's growth and development could be in serious jeopardy without trained professionals caring for them; and

"Whereas reducing monitoring inspections and increasing staff-child ratios will result in poor-quality child care programs; and

"Whereas staff wages are a major indicator of quality, proposed reductions and wage subsidies will have a negative impact on child care; and

"Whereas the need for parental choice in child care is recognized;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to reconsider the directions proposed in Improving Ontario's Child Care System, the report released by Janet Ecker, as we feel it will have a negative impact on the families of Ontario."

I sign my name to this because I agree with it.

PUBLIC LIBRARIES

Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): I have a petition here concerning public libraries and public library boards, signed by approximately 29 residents in my riding. I'd like to file it today.

RENT REGULATION

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Rent Control Act protects Ontario's 3.3 million tenants and allows for security and stability in their homes and communities; and

"Whereas lifting rent control in Ontario would leave tenants with uncontrollable rent increases and financial instability; and

"Whereas the Progressive Conservative government is considering changes to the Landlord and Tenant Act favouring easier and faster eviction by landlords;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to save rent control."

I affix my signature to this petition.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on estimates.

Senior Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Journals (Mr Alex D. McFedries): Mr Curling from the standing committee on estimates reports the following resolutions:

Resolved that the supplementary estimates of the following ministries and offices not selected for consideration are deemed passed by the committee and reported to the House in accordance with --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Dispense? Dispense.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

ALTERNATIVE FUELS ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LES CARBURANTS DE REMPLACEMENT

Mr McGuinty moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 97,

An Act to Accelerate the Use of Alternative Fuels in Motor Vehicles used by the Government of Ontario and its Agencies, Boards and Commissions / Projet de loi 97, Loi visant à promouvoir l'utilisation de carburants de remplacement dans les véhicules automobiles utilisés par le gouvernement de l'Ontario ainsi que par ses organismes, ses conseils et ses commissions.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Any comments?

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Ottawa South): Yes, very briefly. My private member's bill would require that government, over the course of a seven-year period, phase in the use of environmentally friendly fuels so that in seven years' time, 75% of all government fleet vehicles used by agencies, boards and commissions will be using environmentally friendly fuels.

WINDSOR UTILITIES COMMISSION ACT, 1996

Mrs Pupatello moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr76,

An Act respecting the Windsor Utilities Commission and the supply of heat energy within the Corporation of the City of Windsor.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

DEVELOPMENT CHARGES ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LES REDEVANCES D'AMÉNAGEMENT

Mr Leach moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 98,

An Act to promote job creation and increased municipal accountability while providing for the recovery of development costs related to new growth / Projet de loi 98, Loi visant à promouvoir la création d'emplois et à accroître la responsabilité des municipalités tout en prévoyant le recouvrement des coûts d'aménagement liés à la croissance.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Brief comments by the minister?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I would just like to say that I feel honoured to be able to introduce a bill that brings some balance and equality to the Development Charges Act after the mess we've been in for the last seven years.

PARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Just before we move to orders of the day, I want to say that earlier today I ruled in order the Minister of Labour's comments with respect to -- and I forget exactly the phrasing -- "deliberately distorting the facts." Having reflected upon this while I was in the chair and heard exactly the use of it in the following 25 minutes of question period, I think it would be prudent on my part to suggest to the members of the House today that I think in future I would in fact rule that out of order. I thank you for your understanding --

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): Make them all withdraw.

The Speaker: -- and equally thank you very much, member for Cochrane South.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FAMILY RESPONSIBILITY AND SUPPORT ARREARS ENFORCEMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LES OBLIGATIONS FAMILIALES ET L'EXÉCUTION DES ARRIÉRÉS D'ALIMENTS

Consideration of Bill 82,

An Act to establish the Family Responsibility Office, protect the interests of children and spouses through the strict enforcement of support orders while offering flexibility to responsible payors and make consequential amendments to certain statutes / Projet de loi 82, Loi créant le Bureau des obligations familiales, visant à protéger les intérêts des enfants et des conjoints grâce à l'exécution rigoureuse des ordonnances alimentaires tout en offrant une certaine souplesse aux payeurs responsables, et apportant des modifications corrélatives à des lois.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): The member for Oakwood had the floor. Further debate?

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): I welcome the opportunity today to participate in the debate on Bill 82. I have had the opportunity since this bill commenced with debate to listen to a number of other speakers on this very important issue. I will be referencing some of those comments in my remarks later on.

I want to first of all give the House some idea of why I am participating and why I think this issue is important. I was elected in 1987, in September, and from that point on I have always had an involvement in cases involving support issues. I suspect a part of that has been that Sudbury had a regional office until mid-August of this year and so, in more cases than in other parts of the province, people looked to us when they were having difficulties, when they were having trouble accessing the plan.

I want to commend the Liberal Party because it was actually the Liberal Party in April 1987 which first brought in the Support and Custody Orders Enforcement Act which for the first time ever allowed for enforcement action on behalf of the public by the province of Ontario. Up until that point, there was nothing in place in this province under a previous Conservative government to allow for any enforcement action whatsoever to be taken, predominantly on behalf of women and children.

We all know there are recipients who are males who are looking after their children, but we also all know that the majority of the cases do involve women looking after their children or women who receive support payments for themselves.

I commend the Liberals for moving forward on that. We at that time, as did the Conservatives at that time, supported the Liberals in introducing that office and, for the first time ever, making sure that government played a direct and distinct role in assisting women and children and families to receive support payments. That was an important first step in the province, for the first time in the history of this province. From that point and in the last almost about 10 years, both the Liberals and our government made both changes in policy and changes in legislation to build upon that foundation.

Quite contrary to what was said here in the House by the member from, I believe, Brampton North, that from the moment this plan was started there were problems and that's why it was broken, I want to remind him that everyone knew from the moment this plan started that there would be arrears that would be showing, that would be arrears that for many years had not been collected, but that surely it was far better for the government to assume a direct role in trying to collect arrears and in trying to ensure that support payments flowed than for their government to wash their hands of the whole matter and not be involved in a public way at all.

So quite contrary to where I believe the member was heading, I believe it was a very important first step. I also believe that other governments have taken steps to improve upon that situation, which as the Attorney General's own business plan says, is the best enforcement agency in this country.

Having said that, in 1988-89, I put in an appeal to the Ombudsman's office on behalf of 48 women who were having very specific problems in trying to get federal garnishments, particularly with respect to CPP or UIC. We worked with the Ombudsman's office over a period of months to try to get the then Liberal government to make some changes and to speed up the process which involved the justice department in order that women who needed garnishments from federal sources could get them in a timely and appropriate fashion.

But never since I have been a member, and that has been since September 1987, have I seen the kinds of calls, the kinds of distress that women are now in who are trying to use the family support plan -- never -- and I have been a member for almost 10 years now. That is attributed directly to the cuts this Attorney General made in August of this year when, in a single day, he laid off 290 experienced staff and announced that the regional offices of the family support program would be closed. Within four days, in the Sudbury office we went from a staff of 40 to a staff of 11 and some of those people were GO Temp staff. Two weeks after that, we were down to under nine.

That's what the office operated on, primarily supervisory staff including the regional manager, from that time on because the front-line staff took the package and were out the door in four days. That happened not only in Sudbury but in every regional office across this province. We also saw in Sudbury that within two weeks the over-the-counter service access was shut down and many women and children, many payors, many lawyers, many employers who used to access the Sudbury office for assistance were denied that access and referred to Downsview, which as we all saw in a video three weeks ago is not functional, nor will it be for many months yet to come.

I can say in terms of my experience with this plan that I have always in our office dealt with women and children who have had problems and I have never seen problems to the extent we are seeing now, where we receive two and three new calls every day, daily, from people who used to receive regular support payments and now are not because of the cuts this Attorney General made.

I was amused as I listened to some of the comments being made by the Conservatives and the reference they used to this system being broken, because in truth anyone who has followed this matter, and I have, since the inception of the plan cannot say with any legitimacy in this House or anywhere else that the plan is broken or that it's so seriously flawed that nothing can fix it.

I was disturbed by those references for two reasons.

First, I remind this House that over the last 10 years, since the Liberals first introduced a plan, there have been a series of incremental changes which have improved on the plan, brought more families in to receive support, allowed for greater enforcement than there ever was, and I agree with that.

I have to remind members again in this House that despite what the Conservatives said about the plan being broken, the fact of the matter is that under 42 years of Tory government it was never a high-priority public issue for you folks. There was never an Attorney General under the former Conservative regime, which went on for 42 years in this province, who thought support orders were so important that the state should become involved in ensuring that support orders were met, in ensuring that enforcement took place on difficult issues.

For the Conservatives to argue that somehow the plan is broken, that somehow the plan is seriously flawed and can't be fixed, I have to remind all of you, where were you in the 42 years when nothing happened on this issue under previous Conservative regimes?

Second, the comment that the plan is badly flawed or it's broken directly contradicts everything the Attorney General had printed in the business plan earlier this year with respect to this very plan.

Members will recall that in early January or early February of this year, the Attorney General released the business plan with respect to the changes he wanted to implement in the family support plan and he said as follows: "Ontario is the only maintenance enforcement program in Canada which fully offsets the cost of services and provides a similar amount as net return to the government." He also went on to say in his own business plan about this important family support plan, "Ontario is the most `cost per case' efficient program in Canada."

In numerous other points in the business plan, the Attorney General and the Attorney General's own staff commented upon how efficient and effective this plan was, the best enforcement agency anywhere in Canada, so how is it that several months after releasing a business plan that praises the family support plan, a business plan written for the Attorney General, I assume approved by the Attorney General and his political staff before it went out to the public, how can it be that we see such a dramatic change in attitude of the Attorney General, and how can it be then that several speakers who got up and read the speech that had been prepared for them by the Attorney General's office could in fact contradict so clearly what had been said about this plan only a few short months ago?

I have to say that the only reason I believe we are starting to see those references now to "flawed and broken" in the Attorney General's comments and in the comments made by other speakers on this bill is that we are in a crisis now, and the changes he made were done directly to lead to that crisis so that he could make a number of changes which I believe will be extremely detrimental to women and families in this province.

But he will gain acceptability for that, he will gain public acceptance for that change because the people who are caught now in the current crisis, which I believe he deliberately created, will assume that it's much better to opt out or do other things than it is to try and hold the state accountable for helping them receive support payments or for helping them try to collect arrears.

I think it is most regrettable -- frankly I think it's shameful -- that we now have a crisis that has been deliberately put in place by the Attorney General, a crisis I think which is only there to help him move forward some of the more difficult and, frankly to my mind, unacceptable parts of this legislation in order to get it through.

It reminds me of comments that were made very early on in the term of the Minister of Education and Training to his own staff when he said, "We'll have to create a crisis in education in order to implement the changes we want." I think the Attorney General has taken a page out of that book. I sincerely regret he has done that, because I think the consequence of that has been to leave thousands of families across this province right now in acute financial distress, families that used to receive ongoing support payments on a regular basis without a problem until his cuts.

The bill has to be looked at in the context of the crisis because, as I said, the crisis will undoubtedly allow some of the meaner and nastier pieces of this bill to go through. There are two that I want to comment on in particular because they are the two pieces of this that I am most concerned about if they are to be implemented in the shape and the way they appear in Bill 82 as it stands. The first one is the provision to allow payors and recipients to opt out of the plan, and the second is the change which provides the director with the discretion to write off arrears and to determine that there will be no further enforcement taken on cases.

In the first case, the provision to opt out of the plan worries me greatly. Not only is it quite a change from the very firm position we took in government when we said the program had to be mandatory in 1992, but frankly I see nothing in the Attorney General's bill which will deal with coercion. That was one of the reasons we made sure that the bill we put forward would include everyone, because there are no methods in this bill -- and maybe they will appear in the regulations; God knows, because this House won't see them -- there is nothing in place in this bill which will stop that kind of activity.

I worry about that because there have been more than one recipient in my office who has had virtually no contact, nor does she want contact, for whatever reason -- it's not my business to know -- but for whatever reason does not want to have contact with the payor again. The plan stands as an independent force between the two of them, ensuring that money flows, ensuring that she is able to look after herself and her family.

What I find so curious is that the position that's being taken by the Attorney General now is quite different from the one which was taken by him in December 1990, when he, as critic, looked at our bill and said very clearly that there should be the involvement of the director in the plan, that payments should be made to the plan, and the director and the staff of the family support plan should be directly responsible for ensuring those payments went out. He said in the House on December 18, 1990, to this end: "I will be introducing two amendments to the bill.

The first amendment seeks to allow those persons who are currently meeting the provisions of their support and custody orders to pay them directly to the director, without automatic collection. It is the responsibility of the director to forward these payments on to the support recipient."

Clearly, in 1990, the now minister but the then critic for the Attorney General felt that there was an important public-policy, public-responsibility role for the government to play. The way the government would play that would be to ensure that payors, even if they weren't having their payments garnished and sent in by the employer, should at least have the option to send them in to the director themselves.

I don't understand why the position being taken by the Attorney General now in Bill 82 is different from the one that he was so concerned about, indeed the one he moved an amendment on, in December 1990. I can't describe why he's making such a change and why he feels that the plan has no legitimate role to play in terms of making sure that moneys are flowed in and then flow back out, be it from an employer or from the payor directly. I am only left to assume that it has something to do with the very significant cut in staff that the Attorney General made in August 1996, when overnight he issued layoff notices to more than 44% of the family support plan staff.

While the Attorney General likes to say in this House, "We have doubled the number of front-line staff," he conveniently neglects to mention that he has done that at a cost of cutting 40% of the staff in total and he is also doing that by making people who are going to work on the front line assume the jobs that two and three other people used to do under the former plan. I have to ask him, if the former staff, when they were staffed up to full complement, couldn't enforce arrears collections, how is this plan going to operate and do the same when it's operating w