Manitoba Hansard — 7 March 1960 (Sitting 35A, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-35a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

DAILY INDEX Monday, March 7, 1960, 2:30P.M. Introduction of Bills: No. 106, St. Boniface Charter (Mr. Desjardins) • . . . • . • . • . . . . . . 1279 Third Reading: Bills 42, 60, 61, 67, 70 .•.............••• .••...••. .•.. �. ........ 1280 Second Readings: Bill 43, re Election Act (Mr. Lyon) . • . . . • . . . . • . • . . . • • . . . • . • . • . • 1280 Mr. Paulley . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . • . . . 1281 Mr.

Roblin . . . . . . . . . . . .. • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . • . . • • . • . • . . . • • • • . . . . . • . 1283 Bill 77,,re Hospital Services Insurance Act (Mr. Johnson, Girnli) . . • . . • • •• ••• • 1284 Bill 78, re Mineral Taxation (Mr. Witney) • . . . . • . • . • . • • • . . • • . • . • . . • • • • • • . • 1285 Bill 81, re Legislative Assembly (Mr. Roblin): Mr. Carnpbell; Division • • • • • • . 1285 Bill 88, re Municipal Act (Mr. Ridley): Mr. Prefontaine . • . . . . • . • . . . . . • . • • • . . 1285 Bill 90, re Soldiers' Taxation (Mr.

Ridley) ••..• : •.• ••.•... ... : . • . . • . . . .. • . 1286 Adjourn-ediSebate, re Rules of Assembly (Mr. Lyon): Mr. Prefontaine • • . • • • • . • . . . • 1286 Mr. Roblin . . • • • • . . . • . . • • . . . • . . . . . • . • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • . . • • • • . • . . • • • . 1293: Mr.

Paulley • . . • • . • . • • . • • • . . • . • • • . . • • . • • . • . • . . • • . . . • • . • . . • . • . . • . • . • 1297 Division •.•.•..... •.•.•.. .•. •.•..•.••.•. -. .. . ....... . . ..... . . ... .. 1298 Committee of Supply: Public Utilities: Administration • • • • • • • • . . • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1299 Tuesday, March 8, 1960, 8:00P.M. Order of Business • • • . • • • • • • • . . • . . • • . . . . . • • • • • • • • . • • . • • • . • • • • • • • . • • • •.. • • . • • • • . 1349 Wednesday, March 9, 1960, 2:30P.M. Announcement re Education: Mr.

McLean .. .. . .. .. • .. . .. .. .. .. . .. . . . .. .. . .. .. . . 1351 Committee of Supply: Public Utilities . .. . . . .. . . . . .. .. . .. .. . . .. .. • . . .. . . • .. . .. .. 1352 Public Works: Administration • . . . • . . . . . . .. • . . . . • . • • • • • .. • • . . . • • . . . • . . . • . . 1373

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRAND ON . BROKENHEAD BURROW S CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT PLAINS FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGHTS ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD-IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIF ACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MATTHEWS ST. VITAL STE.

ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS- LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Geo. Wm. Johnson Robert Cordon Smellie R. 0. Lissaman E. R. Schreyer J. M. Hawryluk Edmond Prefontaine J. E. Ingebrigtson Mrs. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q.C. Peter Wagner Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray A. J. Reid Oscar F. Bjomson D. L. Campbell Stan Roberts Lemuel Harris Waiter Weir Harry P.

Shewman Obie Baizley Hon. Maurice E. Ridley John Aaron Christianson Russell Paulley J.-M. Froese W. B. Scarth, Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes David Orlikow W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat' T. P. Hillhouse, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym A. H. Corbett Hon. J. B. Carroll E. I. Dow Hon. John Thompson, Q.C •. Richard Seabom. James Cowan Hon. Duff Roblin ADDRESS Reston, Man. 212 Oakdean Blvd., St.

James, Wpg. 12 Russell, Man. 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man • Beausejour, Man. 84 Filrby St. , Winnipeg 1 St. Pierre, Man. Churchill, Man. Rathwell, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Sperling, Man. 225 Melrose Ave., Winnipeg 5 Ridgeville, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Fisher Branch, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Neepawa, Man. Hamiota, Man. 141 Cathedral Ave., Winnipeg 4 561 Trent Ave., E.

Kild., Winnipeg 5 Lac du Bonnet, Box 2, Group 517, R.R. 5 326 Kelvin Blvd., Winnipeg 9 Niverville, Man. 1109 Alexander Ave., Winnipeg 3 Minnedosa, Man. Morris, Man. 185 Maplewood Ave., Winnipeg _13 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 15 Dufferin W. Ptge la Prairie, Man. 435 Yale Ave. W., Transcona, Man. Winkler, Man. 407 Queenston St., Winnipeg 9 Roblin, Man. Holmfield, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Meadow Portage, Man. 138 Dollard Blvd., St. Boniface, Man. Lundar, Man. 381 Guildford St., St. James, Wpg. 12 206 Ethelbert St. , Winnipeg 10 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital, Wpg. 8 Ste.

Rose du Lac, Man. Selkirk, Man. Lot 87 River Road, Lockport, Man. Nesbitt, Man. Beausejour, Man. Swan River, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Boissevain, Man, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 594 Arlington St., Winnipeg 10 512A, Avenue. Bldg., Winnipeg 2 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday; March 7th, 1960. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department 10(1) a - passed. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, there were some questions before the Committee in 'reference to television before the Committee. rose at 5:30. I have a little different subject to talk on; I was wondering whetheJ,' the Minister would like to or intended to answer the questions on TV first? _ MR; _ CARROLL: Mr. Chairman,Thad plaruied to get all the questions at one time. However, if there is any desire that we should discuss ·television and dispose of it first, I would have no objection to that •.

I think we'll get the questions in-- we'll-wait till after then. ·- MR. PAULLEY: -Well, that is entirely, of course, up to the Minister Mr .- Chairman and I'd like to say a word or two. First of all I aprreciate very much the remarks of the Mini ster in introducing his estimates to the House. He has a very important portfolio -- it covers many diversified activities of government and I thought that his outline was very, very interes ting. Now then, Sir, I would like to make one or two comments on it.

The Minister made reference to automobile insurance, _which I appreciate, but I must say .to him that I would have preferred to have heard his comments on the resolution which we had before the House, and .have now concluded. But I only think that it would be propf?r for me, Mr, Chairman, to refer to the press item of Saturday in connection with automobile insurance which I think reflects fairly well what the �inister had to say.

One paragraph of the news report which is supposed to be a. quote, of the Minister, indicates that he said that compulsory insurance removes those incentives which would seem to make our system so satisfactory.. When the onus is on the driver to drive safely, it is a very compelling reason to be a very careful driver. I think, Sir, -that that is pretty well what the Minister said at that particular time, of his remarks.

And I -·· . would like to point out to the Minister that if that were the case, well then there do.esn't seem to be much purpose if you're driving carefully, to carry insurance at all, which I doubt and disr agree with. However, as I've said, we've dealt with the question of automobile insurance in general for this year. It seems that in our proposal, we have not the support of either of the two old-line parties in the House but· we will leave that for another debate in the future.

Now, Sir, I would like to say a word or two in connection with the Utility Board and the very important question of natural gas and also the -- what to me is most vital, and that is the assurance to the people of Manitoba and the gas-users that our interests in the field of natural gas are being protected at all times.

First of all Sir, I'm sorry that I have not the news comment before: me in-detail at the present time but it appears that on January 20th, there was a news item in the Winnipeg Free Press referring to the Honoura}lle the Minister of Industry and Commerce, :commenting about the board, that is the Utility ·Board;· not appearing before the - -.National Energy)3oard:atcottawa_:,. in connection with the export of natural gas.· And according to the news report, the Honourable Gurney Evans, Minister of lndustry and Commerce said that the Utility Bo:ll"d were not appearing before the National Energy Board at Ottawa because they · must appear in a neutral capacity in the province. lwonder lf that is a correct statement of the Honourable the Minister of_Industry an_d Commerce?

In other words that in reference to the export_ of .••.••. _ .. ·- . · . ; . . - · HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Recretary) (F.ortRouge): I don't remember, Mr� Chairman, saying anything on that subject._ I think what� I said was that.we were following the .. proceedings !lefore the meeting .in Ottawa which.we.did by way.of. h�rving one of the consultants of the Department of IndJ;�Stry and Commerce attend at the meetirtgs, and ldon 't .think I would -· presume to_ sp�ak about the Utility Board which is not .in xny department. .. _ _ - ; - MR. PAULLEY� Well, the dtrectquotethati have on xnY notes, Mr.

Chairman, it said in addition, to what the Honourable the Minister has told us, that he is· alleged to have said, accordiil.g to this news report, "that the Board must take a neutral attitude in respect of the hear ings of.the National Energy Board on the export of gas". MR. EVANS:. I don •t see anything wrong with the statement -- I'm not trying to escape responsibility for it except that it's not my department and as far_ as I'm aware, I made no re mark on that subject, MR. PAULLEY: Well; first of all I must say that I'm sure that the newspaper would March 7th, 1960 Page 1307

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) .... not have quoted my honourable friend or I don't think that it's likely that they would b.ave had there not been some comment of that nature. It may have been that the Honourable the Minister of Utilities was not available or away from town or that the ques tion was directed to the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce due to the expansion program of the department. However, he has just stated that he had--what was it he just said, something about no disagreement with the general statement ·of the Board being neutral. Did I not gather that from your remarks just now? MR.

EV ANS: What I intended to convey was that I did not say or it would not be my place to say, that because the Utility Board is in a neutral position, that it had no place to make representations at Ottawa. That's the aspect of it, to which I referred. Well, again I apologize to the Committee, Mr . Chairman, because I haven't got the actual report here.

But--well, I think there is --I think that there would be a great issue had the Minister made these remarks that the Board was not appearing before the National Energy Commission because of its 'neutral' position, if it was or in fact, did have a neutral position. (Interjection) Pardon? · MR. CAP.ROLL: That quotation was not made by Mr. Evans. MR. PAULLEY: Well, then I'll just have to stand corrected or accept--I certainly accept it, Mr. Chairman, I certainly don't think I'm the type of individual that wants to put any words in anybody's mouth that they did not say but that was what I gathered.

Because I want to say this, that in my opinion the Utility Board cannot take a neutral position at all, in respect of the--�nymatter concerning natural gas, whether it's in the field of just local affairs or the nat ional field. ·Because I think that the Minister of Utilities --and here I do happen to have the actual newspaper report --that on the setting up of the new Municipal Board and also the new Utility Board, the Minister of Public Utilities,. and this, Sir, was on November 28th of last year, I believe, the Minister said that one of the reasons for the new board was that it would take a more active role in protecting the public interests, not only in the matter of rate charges and service but in all other related utility fields.

I think in that Sir, that the Minister made a cor rect statement that it is the duty of the Utility Board to take active participation in protecting the interests of the users of natural gas in our province. Because if they were not to do that, then who would be? And that, to me, is the one of the prime functions of the Utility Board, to protect the interests of the consumer. And while I have a great respect for the members of the Utility Board, I wonder whether or not they are doing that to the greatest degree possible?

I say that, Sir, because we just received today--and unfortunately, time has not permitted a full study of the Order for Return at my request of a few days ago --that that return was just tabled today, in which I asked certain questions. One was the copy of all correspondence dir ected from the Public Utility Board and/or the Province of Manitoba to the National Energy Board in respect of the export of natural gas. The answer is contained in three letters which are in this return, to which I shall make reference in a moment or two.

Question No. 2 asks for a copy of all briefs presented to the Utility Board and/ or the Province of Manitoba in respect of the above to the national Energy Board, and we are told in the answers that no briefs were presented by the Province of Manitoba or the Public Utility Board to the National Energy Board in connection with the export of natural gas from Canada. Question No. 3 asked, was there any representation made to the National Energy Board regarding the export of natural gas by the Utility Board or the Province; if not, why not?

The answer given is yes, that on December 1st, the Honourable Gurney Evans --so apparently my honourable friend does get in on natural gas as well --but on December 1st, 1959, the Hon ourable Gurney Evans met in Ottawa with Messrs. McKinnon and Howland of the National Energy Board, at which time, lVir. Evans expressed the keen concern of our government, with respect to the export of natural gas to the United States and reiterated the points made in the letter of November 19th, 1959.

The next paragraph says: "A research economist from the Department of Industry and Commerce" --again I say, my honourable friend and his department are in there --"was present at the National Energy Board hearings at Ottawa to conduct their watching brief on the hearings which took place." And then the answers to my Order for Return go on to say, "There has been very close liaison between the Public Utilities Board and the Department of Industry and Commerce, with respect to the hearings for the export of natural gas to the United States". A moment ur two ago, Mr.

Chairman, we heard--if I heard him correctly, and I think I did --the Minister of Industry and Commerce tell us in reference to what I thmght Page 1308 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Paulley, cont' d) •. .••• was a news

article of January 20th, referring to him, something to the effect that well, this isn't my baby, it's the baby of the Minister of Public Utilities. And yet in all of the replies ....• MR. EV ANS: .•••••• .••• clear up a point with - of my honourable friend, that I didn •t intend to say anything more than that any remark concerning the status of the Utility Board would properly come from him, not from me. I was just referring to nothing beyond that. MR. PAULLEY: Oh, no, I appreciate that, Sir, very much. But the point that I'm getting at in my remarks at this particular time, Mr.

Chairman, is simply this, that thus far, thus far as we have been made aware of in the House in this Committee, that neither has the Department of Public Utilities or the Utility Board had any part or made any representations to the National Energy Board in respect of the export of natural gas. I said that I was going to re fer to the three letters, and possibly would temper to some degree my last statement where it ai,:Pears that there hasn't been anything from the Utility Board. I shouldn't have really said that, Mr.

Chairman, because two of the letters referred to were from the Utility Board to the National Energy Board. But I think, Sir, that when I read the contents of those letters I think I can establish that notwithstanding the fact that they were from the Utility Board to the National Energy Board, they weren't the type of representation or types of letters that the Utility Board, in pro- tecting the interests of Manitoba in respect of natural gas, might have written. . But first of all, Sir, let me refer to the first letter.

This letter was again written by the Honourable the Minister of Industry & Commerce and not to the National Energy Board at all. It was a letter written to the Honourable Gor!ion Churchill, a· Minister of the Government of Canada. MR. .EV ANS: That•s a bad word. MR. PAULLEY: No, I donifsay it's a bad word at all. MR. EV ANS: .••.•• .• the pain on his face at the mention of the word. MR. PAULLEY: But, Sir, is it not the duty of the province itself rather than simply writing a letter to a Minister of the Crown of the Federal Government in respect of this?

If it has the interest, and I suggest it has or should have, the interest of the protection of the users of natural gas in the Province of Manitoba; that its representation should be directed to the board concerned who is dealing with this matter. Or did my honourable friend feel that by transmit- . ting a communication to a member of the Cabinet at Ottawa that it might achieve more than dir ect representation to the National Energy Board? And I'd like to .•..• I beg pardon? MR. EV ANS: .•••.• •. follow it up with a visit to the Board. MR. PAULLEY: Fine, fine.

I've now followed it up and that's one of my points, that it appears to me that the representation on behalf of the citizens of Manitoba has been through, in general, through a letter first of all from the Minister of Industry and Comme rce here, to the Honourable Gordon Churchill at Ottawa followed up as the Minister says with a conference or representations to two members of the National Energy Board. !'think, Sir, that the people of Manitoba are entitled to mors active r�presentation in respect of this matter than that.

But I would like to quote, I would like to quote from the letter of my honourable friend to the Honour able Gordon Churchill, Minister of Trade and Commerce at Ottawa; this, Sir, dated November 19th ''Dear Mr. Churchill: My colleagues and I understand an application for the export of natural gas in Alberta, to the mid-western United States via Emerson, Manitoba will be under consideration in due course by the National Energy Board.

In this connection we would like to place before yo;.t for your consideration the views of the Government of Manitoba on two aspects that should be given careful examination before the export of natural gas from Canada is autho rized. " Are we to gather from this that notwithstanding the fact that the Government of Canada as one of the recommendations,-! believe, of the Borden Commission on energy, that they have set this up, that the proper approach to that board is not to the board itself that has been set up, but through ministerial action of the government of Ottawa.

I ask you, how often have we been criticized in this House for similar actions? Oh, we've set up boards for the purpose of hearing all aspects of this and that. And if you have any representations to make you make them to them because they're apart from us. Haven't we been told that?

I suggest that we have; and I suggest that while it's fine for the Minister of Industry and Commerce to write to the Mini ster of Trade and Commerce in the Federal jurisdiction tmt proper representations of the people of Manitoba should have been made to the Board that was set up to hear these, and to make its March 7th, 1960 Page 1309

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) .••.••. recommendation to the Government at Ottawa; and then, Sir, the letter goes on "Firstly, we are of the view that purchasers of natural gas in foreign countries should not be able to buy Canadian natural gas· at prices at n!lich ·are lower than those paid by Canadian users. " No argument at all. "It would not be equitablfl, we believe, for Canadian consumers to be placed in the position where in fact, through payment of higher prtces they were subsidizing consumers in other countries." Agree most heartily.

"Secondly, we believe that export of natural gas should only J:;e authorized provided that sufficient reserves are avail able for use by Canadians in future years. In this respect we have been assured by the findings of the Board and Royal Commission on Energy on the adequacy of reserves for both domestic and export use." I would like to comment on that particular paragraph. I appreciate the fact that at the hearings and the findings of the Borden Royal Commission on Energy, as far as I can find out, there has been a detailed study into the availabilities of reserves for the Canadian people.

But I have yet to hear from the Minister of Utilities, or any Minister opposite, or from the Utility Board, that reservation has been made on the Trans-Canada line for adequate reserves to take care of possible expansion in the Province of Manitoba for its requirements in the future in respect of natural gas; and !trust and hope that the Minister of Utilities will be able to tell us, that notwithstanding the report of the Borden Royal Commission I hope that he can assure us that adequate provision has been made by either the Winnipeg and Central Gas and the other two gas companies for an adequate provision-for the future expansion in Manitoba� Thus far, we have no evidence of that. · And the, Sir, the letter goes on "We know that you and your colleagues in the National Energy Board are giving these matters the full consideration which they deserve.

We thought, howeT:er, thct you would wish to have our views before you. You are aware also of the impor_tance which we attach to the availability of natural gas in facilitating the further growth and diversification of Industry and Commerce within Manitoba. You will appreciate, therefore, our concern that natural gas should be made available in the .Province for distribution at mini mum economic prices which are not higher than those charged to the board for export of this important energy source." Fine! Fine!

But it still comes back to the very pertinent point that here in the Province of Manitoba we are relying on a Minister of the Crown at Ottawa to further the representation, which is the responsibility of this government here in Manitoba.

And then, Sir, I said that I would also refer to the letters which were sent by the Public Utility Board of Manitoba to the Energy Board; and in the brief time that I've had an opportunity of studying these letters all that the letters contained, to me, is just drawing to the attention of the Board that we here in the Province of Manitoba are expanding insofar as the use of natural gas is concerned.

Second paragra{il of the letter of February 5th, says this: "I would like to warn you with respect to the sales of natural gas as they do not properly reflect the current use of it, as the attachment of gas was largely made in the Greater Winnipeg area during 1959 and is reflected in the months of October, November and December rather than on an annual basis.

In addition to that, the present attachment .in the City of Winnipeg is approximately 17, 907 space heating customers at the end of '59 and it is anticipated that by the end of 1964 there will be approximately 76,358, so that the present use of natural gas and the consumption shown is a comparatively small figure when it is related to the need within the next few years." It's fine. It points out to the Board that we are expanding.

But what action has been taken to reserve either on the present Trans-Canada or contemplated expansion of Trans-Canada Pipelines that these needs for the future in Manitoba will be adequately taken care of. Again, I suggest that thus far there have been no concrete statements that we are going to be protected. The second letter from the Utility Board to the Energy Board February 16th, is further to our letter of February 5th with respect to quantities of oil and gas used iil "59 .

"We thought you might be interested in the record of the amount of coal and coke used during that period and also the electrical energy, plus all forms of energy expressed in billions of BTU's for the years 1955 to 1980. A further point you may want to consider is that the Trans-Canada submission specifically lists the requirements of the three Manitoba distributors up to 1963-64. From there until 1980 only totals of all distributors under contract with Trans-Canada are shown. There may be additional distributors come into being in Manitoba in the next twenty years who Page 1310 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) .•.•• will require gas. These requirementS would be in addition to those of the three distributors now operating. Trusting this further information· may be of some assistance to you." I suggest,_ Mr ..

Chairman, this was very, very vital and I suggest that rather than lett.ers there should have been proper representation made by the Province of Manitoba thro!lgh its government and through the utility Board to endeayour to assure in a concrete manner that the needs of the Province of Manitoba would be taken care of. , ··I was interested the other day in reading a report which was made to the Province of SaskaOO.hewan by the Sumf ord Research Institu-te of California. in,'c;-.e::;pect to these resources and ind!istrtal.Opportunities to the: Province of Saskatchewan.: Itis a veiy interesting book and I suggest that. this is a company similar to that of the Arthlir D. 'Little Comp3.ny; but I was . intere$_ted in a statement or two in respect ofnatural gas.

Nowi'the Province of Saskatchewan . is in a more fortunate position than we are here in Manitoba in. J;hat it has got some natural gas wells, and I thought this was quite pertinent and interesting.

Page 224 of the report says this: "Although Saskatchewan has substantial reserves of natural g11s, in fact sufficient to meet the projected provincial demand until approximately 1970, without a draw on total gas reservef3, the fact that Saskatchewan Po wer Corporation is planning to sell approximately 7 billion cubic feet of gas per year to. the Trans-Canada Pipe Lines for export to Eastern Canada, makes the reserve situation anything but bright.

Consequently, it is probable that in the not too distant future increasing quantities of gas from Alberta will be needed to supplement production in the province to meet Saskatchewan's long term requirements for natural gas. Such action is possible because Trans Canada Pipe Line crosses Saskatchewan Power Corpora- . tion's gas transmission system in several places.

Ili the long run, it appears that Saskatche wan is bound to be a net importer of gas." The reason I read that, Sir, is that here is a pro vince 'Yhich has at the present time a fair amount of natural gas, wells and reserves, that they're-worrying now of 1970 and the possibility that notwithstanding the fact that they have within their boundaries gas wells; that they may become an importer in it. Also, they say that the matter of exporting natural gas is one which will greatly concern the new National Energy Board but one which.will pose no problem at all to Saskatchewan.

Any gas reserves of commercial size discovered in the province will be produced on the completion of develop ment. The problem in Saskatchewan is inadequacy of provincial gas reserves at the present time rather than one of surplus; accordingly natural gas is being imported from the Alberta fields.� In other words, there they have it and they're concerned about it now, and it seems to me that here in the Province of Manitoba we're not taking enough concern in respect of it, and·we have none of our own.

And I suggest that there should have been more activity and more representations of the Utility Board and the Province <Jf Manitoba to the representations before · the National Energy Board. I've asked the question of the Minister, througJlhim to the Utility Board, "What·provisions have been made to assure that W!3 will p.ave an agreement with Trans C� nada):ci supplym;with �� tural.gas :-not for tlie distant fUture;� Mr. Chairman, but . _the rather near future?": -Or on page 34 of the repo:rtof the Enquiry Coll!mission into natural ·· 'gas, w� find that the Chief Engineer of Winnipeg & Central Gas.

Cbnpany stated in public hear ing that the quantity o! gas contracted f<Jr in 1962 is a demand of 46, 40Q thousand cubic feet but the:report of the com pany consultants indicated a demand in 1962 of. 62. 000 thousand cubic feet. He informed the Commission that the company has-already received every assurance that the pipe line (lOD'IPany possesses the supplies and the capacitY to provide .such additional quan tities as may be required and he could not say what the price of this extra gas would be.

And. while. in Jhe return I got this afternoon and I haven •t had time to convert the figures. it appears to me that the._curve is rapidly up insofar as billion BTU's are concerned and I haven't that converted into cqbic feet of natural gas energy in order to make .a proper comparison . . Now then one other thing that I· just want to touch on briefly .and I certainly hope the Minister is going to be able to tell us what reserves: are being reserved now for Manitoba's future requirements.

I don't thirik I need to tell him that insofar as the use of natural gas, we've just touched the surface; I don't need to remind-him, as we have reminded him in the past, that in the Province of Saskatchewan under ·public ownership, the distribution of natural gas is being made available to the whole of the province -- and that very rapidly; but I will ask him this: "What plans if any has this Government got to expand the facilities of natural gas in the Province of Manitoba to other jurisdictions than those that are receiving it now ·March 7th, 1960 Page 1311

(Mr. Paulley; cont'd) .. .. . because tLe Commiss ion, the Deutsch Commission on the distribu tion of natural gas told us that it was beyond their scope to consider the question of the pro vince wide distribution system of gas?" I wonder what plan if any, the Minister has either as a provincial undertaking or through co-operation with other companies, in making available to other areas in the province, natural gas. But there's one other point, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister spoke of when he was introducing his esti mates yesterday. I believe he referred to the question of uniformity of accounts.

What progress has actually been made in having uniformity of accounting in respect of natural gas between the three distributors as I understand we have at the present time? Has he gone further than that or the Board gone further than that in attempting to get with other jurisdictions also, some uniform classification of accounts so that we, in this House, the users of the gas outside and also the Utility Board itself, may be in a position to readily compare the price of Natural gas between the jurisdictions in Manitoba, and those outside?

And I would like to know through the Minister whether the Utility Board has under consideration the question of uniformity of class ification of accounts in respect of the Manitoba Telephone System and the Manitoba Power Commission. I think it's very vital that this be done in order that the Board can arrive at logical comparative conclusions, for while we do appreciate that there are differ ences in the cost of production of the various energies, that it is only through uniform classific ation of rates that real comparison is possible.

Now then, Sir, there are many other aspects in connection with the natural gas utili ties and the public utilities that we should be taking a look at. For the moment, I think I will leave with the Minister those thoughts . I know one or two other colleagues of mine and the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead have sorm further questions in respect of natural gas that he will be directing to the Minister. There's just one other, and poss ibly my colleague will expand on it.

The Minister told us the other day on introducing his estimates that the Utility Board has made a report or two to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council as to its activities in supervising the affairs of the Winnipeg and Central Gas. I would like to know from the Minister what these reports con tained and whether it is possi ble or not for those reports to be made available to the members of this Committee. Because you will recall, Mr.

Chairman, that last year when we were considering the whole question of natural gas, when we were considering the report of the Enquiry Commission into natural gas, there were many recommendations made of the continu ing study of the affairs of the company as to how they may affect the setting of rates basis. Now just bri efly we'll touch on this that one of the most important aspects of that consideration was that the Utility Board should ever be vigilant to make sure that through affiliated interests of the various companies , that the consumer of gas was protected at all times.

I noted in the Financial Post of September 12th , that in the reports of Public Utilities and the Power Corpor ation of Canada in particular, that in their portfolio there were three companies , which are of vital concern to the users of natural gas here in the Province of Manitoba, and in particular in Greater Winnipeg, and more so, Sir, because of the nature of the franchise held by the Winni peg and Central Gas . And just to refer to those three companies in the portfolio of the Power Corporation of Canada, there is the G. M. Gest Co, the Trans Canada Pipe Lines and the Winnipeg and Central Gas.

All three of these, it appears to me, in the portfolio of the Power Corporation of Canada and each and every one of them has its bearing on the price that the consumer of natural gas is going to have to pay in Manitoba. So I say that there was the ques tion of protecting the interests of the user of natural gas.

The question arose as to the net effect of affiliated interests in the establishment of those rates and if I recall correctly that one of the amendments that was made to the Public Utilities Act which was passed last ses sion, that was one of them, that the Board should be vigilant at all times to make sure that the contracts et al of Winnipeg and Central, with the affiliated interests, should be scrutinized constantly. I'd like to know from the Minister how much of that has been done? And so I say Mr.

Chairman, and I have taken a considerable time of the Committee in respect of this, but I think that it is vital. We know that because of certain conditions it was deemed advisable to set up a Commiss ion of Enquiry into the distribution of natural gas in the Greater Winnipeg area. We know as a result of the tabling of information, or at least I shouldn't say we know, Mr. Chairman, it is my opinion that with the very very bare indication Page 1::i12 March 7th, 1960

(Mr.

Paulley, cont'd) ..•• of activity of the Board and the province in respect of the hearings and protection of the users of gas, . in respect of the National Energy Board as indicated by the return that was tabled today, that we must be ever vigilant to make sure that the consumer is protected, not only insofar as the rates he may have to pay for the gas, but also that the gas will be avaihble, and that the company has taken these steps to make amply sure that there is provision for future expansion and thatthe Utility Board should make sure in fulfilling its duties, that the company does it or bring it back to the attention of we in this House.

MR. J. P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I wish to say a few words at this time. First I wi.sh to compliment and pay sincere tribute to the personnel of the different departments that come under Public Utilities and when I say the personnel I don't simply mean the white-collar workers, but all the way down to the last man. I've quite often seen them at work, especially last fall, the repairmen. After certain storms they were phoned that the power was out, and as we. know, under our modern conditions, quite a number of people rely on hydro as far as heating, not only cooking --but heating.

Last fall these men came out to repair some damage done by storms in my area and they certainly tackled jobs that I wouldn't; I couldn't even watch some of them -- right in the middle of the storm they'd climb poles. So my smcere· tribute to the way they're fulfilling their duties. It seems to me that of all the departments, this one, at least in some areas, has failed the people of Manitoba miserably. And I don't know whether we should solely blame the Minister for that, or blame the policies of the Government.

Maybe it is some new policies of the government that are hindering his work; maybe it is that the Minister is overworked. If the Minister is overworked I think there is a solution to that. He heads two departments and probably one solution to that would be to appoint another Minister. Of course it's not for me to say -it's up to the Premier -- but if the Minister is overworked he could appoint another one, in one of the other two departments. I listened to what the Honourable Minister had to say on Friday and one remark he made that there was 5% increase in motorists in Man itoba.

It's a good thing that there is an increase but I don't think it's such a huge increase, and I wonder whether it is better times that promote this increase or is it just a natural increase in popuia tion? At one point the Minister did mention that he was vitally interested in highway safety. I think we're all interested in that, in highway safety, and there probably were some improve ments on highway safety in certain areas.

Naturally as the years go by we strive for improve ments and I cannot say that there were no improvements at all, but there's some things I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to, and that I feel will come under Highway Safety. In certain areas you see certain signs left by the Public Works, and even coming in this morn ing on 59 I noticed that the signs were taken off, but the posts are still there. These posts, most of them, are painted gray in colour, at least these few on No. 59 are. Driving at night it's pretty hard to see them and they are right on the edge of the shoulder.

I would suggest to the Minister that his truck-- the Public Works Department, in interests of safety, have these removed. When the billboard or the sign itself is removed I do not think that posts should be left there. One of the residents living in my home town had the misfortune of running into one of these·. He didn't damage the car too much, because he happened to stop as soon as he came up against it but he got a good scare -- bent the post over a little bit.

And we have had a bad example of that just a few days ago where one of these posts bent in, and impaled a man, and I thilik that's something that the Minister should, in the interests of safety, should look into it. That's not the only thing. As we drive on our highway; and I don't know how the Minister would be able to impress on the people that this is not safe, but we notice many beer bottles along the highway, on the highway.

How to enforce law -- I know that there is a law forbidding the throwing of bottles or any trash along the highway, on the ditch and so on, but how to enforce this I'm not prepared at this time to say, but I think it would be a very good idea to look into this. Not. only beer bottles but there are some other dangerous objects strewn about on the highways. Some highways, it's true, are not so littered, but quite a few are littered pretty badly but there is one thing that this Government could do and that is broken glass -- windshield glass or headlight glass on the highways.

We often see a minor accident, then after the accident has been disposed of, many a time the glass is left littered -windshield glass - on the highways, and I know of at least two motorists who had their tires punc;:tured by March 7th, 1960 Page 1313

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd) .. .. . that. I think that should be looked into. We're happy to note that the Manitoba Power Commission is expanding. I think if I'm right, something like 9, 488 new customers, but there's ce rtain areas that<:have asked for the expansion of power and they were not granted that. I know of one area which is a summer resort in my constituency-- the Honourable Member for Swan River, the Honourable Member from· Gilbert Plains and some of the members here were boasting· about all the recreational facilities in their area.

I cannot boast too much; we haven •t too many lakes in my i rea but we have one wonderful little lake at the east end,. which is Moose Lake. Now Moo� Lake is a very beautiful place. The lake isn't very large. Two years ·ago it was a very gpod phice for fishing. In the winter of 1958, the fish in that lake during the winter suffocated, all'of them. I think it took the Public Works Department about two weeks to rake off the fish � nd haul them away off the lake in trucks.

But, and I think that could have been prevented in s� me way, but probably to compensate for the loss, the Department has planted fish there again. But, besides that, there was a road built this last summer, from Moose Lake to Birch :Point, and that's one of the most beautiful, not the most beautiful, I would say, but one of the best fishing grounds I think in Manitoba. I had the privilege and the pleasure of going out there with some of the Forestry people this summer and the fish at Birch Point, which is on the western shore of Lake of the Woods , are just begging to be caught.

In fact, when we went out in the boat you could see them poking out their snouts looking at us. The road from Moose Lake to Birch Point is going to bring a lot of tourists to Moose Lake and a lot of fishermen, once they learn that there is fish to be had there. The people of Moose Lake made a petition last year; they asked the government to extend electrical facilities to Moose Lake but so :far the government hasn't indicated whether the construction will be extended. I would like the Minister to look into that and probably ••. MR. CARROLL: •.• •..•... ..••• the request made? MR. TANCHAK: Pardon? MR .

CARROLL: When did you say the request was made? MR . TANCHAK: There was a petition last summer signed. MR. CARROLL: And there's been no answer to that petition? MR. TANCHAK: There has been an answer but there's no action. MR. CARROLL: Oh, I see. MR . TANCHAK: Oh yes, there has been an answer. MR . CARROLL: What did the answer say? MR. TANCHAK: Well I don't think I'll go into it just now. The answer was that it may not pay, because it is a non-residential area.

We know the answer but still that doesn't - the tourists who stay there all summer would like to have hydro extended and I don't think it will cost so very much.to.extend it because there are hydro facilities abou� halfway down and it could be extended, and·as I mentione::l,-since the road.from Moose Lake tO Birch.Potnt will be built, or is built and will be improved this year, and I understand that one :of the Ministers did mention Birch Point as mie of the developments of recreational area, I think that the hydro should-be extended there.

Now as far as the Manitoba Telephone System - the automatic dial system expansion. I think it is a very good thing. I understand that one of the areas in my constituency, that's Vita, is on this program.for this coming summer. In fact there is a building erected there - it's all ready to go -- I'm not too sure just exactly when it will be transferred but I understand that t7e will have dial system at Vita this coming summer. But there are tWo places, two vill ages in Emerson constituency; one is Badger and one is Carrick.

These two places have repeatedly, at least that's what they tell me, ·asked for telephone facilities. and so far they haven't had any results. Iri 1958 the little village of Badger was completely is.olated during the winter storm. I think for about three months of the year they had no way, no access to Badger at all, by car or truck, but the only way they could go was to the nearest town which is I'd say around nine miles.or ten miles, and it's Piney, was by team. They had no telephone there; the only means of communication was the railroad.

They have the· railroad and probably the telegraph, so I think these people should be considered and the telephone should be extended to that village. I think in our modern age, modern times, no village or town in the Province of Manitoba should be without telephone facilities. Page 1314 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd) .••. Now another village that has no telephone in my area, that's the village of Carrick. They have been pleading for a telephone but they haven't so far been successfi:U.. I think the Minister would be kind enough to look into this and extend the facility to them. The Honourable Member from Fisher went in detail into the farm truck licences and the $10 that the government is fining, or charging local truckers, farmers and so on, for going into hauling of pulp and timber. I don't know too much about the area that is con cerned there.

I seem-to think that that's the first time it happened in Manitoba history. Well if that-is the case, and I don't thi* I should explain it; maybe .it's just a new form of tax, a new fee, maybe it's to enrich the Provincial-Treasury, I do. not know. But I know the same thing is happening in the southeastern part of Manitoba.

But I have to admit in the southeastern part of Manitoba some of the truckers were required, even in the past, to pay a $10 licence to haul pulp and timber during the winter months, unless they were hauling their own pulp from their own farm and happen to have a station where a larger truck picked up the pulp, they were not required at that time to pay an extra fee. Now, I was going to say a little on the northern TV problem. I think it was covered very well by my colleague. I am not going to say too much about it. It seems to me that this is the greatest bungle in Manitoba history.

The people in northern Manitoba were promised action but action seems to be coming very slowly. Not so long ago I heard the Minister say that there will be -- it was the intention to convene a meeting of all interested parties. It seems to me, and I am sure of it because I looked up Hansard, that the. same thing, the same phrase, and I have it right here, the same sentence, in 1959 in the summer and I took it from Hansard, and this is the statement of the Minister.

"It is our intention to convene a meeting of all j.nterested parties at an early date in an effort to resolve the northern TV problem." That was the statement made by .the Minister last year. · He seems to make similar statements th!s year. I am. not going to .say.that the interested parties were not convened; probably they were. · Just wh::tt happened there, I don't know, because I wasn't there .. But just to make state- . ments like that and an effort to resolve the northern TV problem, I just wonder how muolr effort is being made to resolve that problem.

It isn't enough simply to make the staterrent that we will make an effort but I think the department and the Minister will do well to really make a conscientious effort because these people in the north are begging for TV reception and they don't seem to get anywhere. I read in the-paper that some of them even feel the same as the constituents of Emerson constituency feel, that they have been treated as second class citizens. The paper seems to say that or they say that when they signed the petition from Flin Flon, they say "second class citizens of Manitoba.

" So maybe the people of Emerson constituency and Boundary Division have some -- rather, feel the same way. Of course this doesn't concern the Minister ofPublic Utilities, it's the Minister for Education, but I just drew a parallel -there_.·: . - . . .. - · . " ; ·, Now-�I liave anoth�r littl� Clipping here and I'� not going to say which way ·my interest goes, but I would like to get an answer tO this. It says "Out of Business", and this is June 22nd,�a clipping •. "The Manitoba Government is giving up its retail appliance business.

The stores that the Manitoba Power-'Co.b:lm:ission has been operating in Winnipeg, Brandon and Portage la Prairie-are· to clear their stoCk and close up shop by-August the 31st. That is welcome news. ·It will- be welcomed particularly by private appliance dealers in the province · ·with whom the -government has for years been needlessly in competition. "-· I am not pleading my own cause--'- I am not an appliance -dealer! "The Power Commission appliance stores are a hold-over from the days when the then goyernment's rural·electrification program was probing into remote rural areas.

To build up a satisfactory po;ver load it was both sensible ·and useful, then, for the government to advertise and promote the sale of appliances. So at least it was argued, but that day is past. The Power Commission has since been successful in building up adequate power loads in all parts of the province and the usefulness of its appliance stores is past. It makes good sense to close them:" This isn't my quotation;-it's the quotation of Free Press, June 22nd. I wonder what has happened since in this as far as the sales of appliances go.

There are a few other items I wanted to bring but some of these will have a bearing on what the Minister answers to some questions raised before. Therefore I'll not pursue that March 7th, 1960 Page 1315

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd) ..... any furt1.er. After the Minister has answered some questions I may get up again. Thank you. MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few brief remarks in regard to the telephone service in the Greater Winnipeg area. Before I do so I would like to say how proud we are of the Manitoba Telephone System and also the Manitoba Power Commission, because I think we have every·reason to be proud with the quite capable handling of the situation during the last few years, especially during the last 12 years of such rapid development in the Greater Winnipeg area.

But in 1946 when the building boom started ·in Winnipeg we very well realized the difficulties with which the Telephone System were faced and we were told that party lines were a necessity for some few years because of the lack of an exchange. But I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this is now 1960 and in the order that I received the other day, the Order for Return, it says that there are 47, 112 telephone lines in the Greater Winnipeg area, that is, residential telephones. But there are 71, 917 two-party residential telephones and 1, 442 multi-party residential telephones making a total of 73,359 party lines.

Now the Minister said the other night that it was the intent of the department to upgrade the service at the rate of about 7, 500 per year. This will take about 10 years before we finally get this to where we want it. Now at the rate 12, 800, which was the number of new telephones installed in the Greater Winnipeg area last year, I submit that we will never catch up. Now in the area that I ·have the honour to represent I don't know of any one thing that causes more concern than this lack of private telephone lines.

The other night I had occasion to make a call and it took me some 3/4 of an hour and when I made the remark to my friend that it took me this time, he said, "Well, that's nothing, we have a party line here where two university boys are doing their homework over the telephone every night." Now I know that the department would try to rectify that but I submit that this isn't good enough. I submit that we have to do better than this in the Greater Winnipeg area because I believe the rate is· $3.90 for the private line and $3.25 for a party l{iie.

A difference of 65 cents does not justify the inconvenience to which our Greater Winnipeg residents are being put.

Now with the building of the Edison Exchange in the West Kildonan area our residents can no longer see the need to be so tolerant in going along with these party lines, and I would ask the Minister, I know he is very anxious to oblige by reason of the fact that I received my Order for Return so promptly, and I would make an appeal to him to look into this question of upgrading this telephone system in Greater Winnipeg area because I for one do not think that enough money has been spent on public relations. I think that we have taken advantage of the building boom.

For instance, in the general -- in the report of the Manitoba. Telephone System, the annual report, and it's very complete, there is an item here under commercial which shows sales and local commercial expenses are close to a million dollars. And I submit, Mr. Chair man, that some of that money could very well be spent on public relations because the day may be not far off when we may have to maintain the good will of a lot of our subscribers and I think that more consideration should be given to this vital question of the party line system in the Greater Winnipeg area. MR. DAVID ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr.

Chairman, the Minister spoke during his statement about the rapid expansion of the Hydro Ele ctric System and the future plans for expansion. Because I believe that the expansion· is important, because I believe that the people who work in the expansion of the Hydro Electric System are citizens who are as entitled to all the rights of Manitoba citizens as everybody else, and because I believe that they have been denied this right, I want to say a few word.s about this part of the Minister's state ment. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I asked, during this session on two occasions, whether or not it was a fact that the Hydro Electric Board, in awarding the contract at Kelsey had issued instructions to the prospective contractors that in the calculation of their bid, they were to use the fair-wage rates of pay for the construction industry. I asked this on two occasions, Mr. Chairman, and I got a very specific answer from the Minister. I will just read the ex change that took place the second time I asked this. February 9th, 1960, Page 336 of Hansard. I asked the Minister, Mr. Chairman, and I will quote, "Mr.

Sp•3aker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct it question to the Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities. ·what reference to the payment of f:O:ir wage rates ts there in the instructions to the prospective Page 1316 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd) ..•• contractors at Kelsey prepared by the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board or in the agreement between the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board and the contractors?" The Minister gave a fairly long answer, the end of which he says, and I quote, "We didn't at any time tell the contractor what he must pay in wages to his employees, or the hours of work that they must work. " I think that's pretty specific, Mr.

Chairman, and I am not suggesting for a moment that the Minister deliberately misrepresented the facts, but I must say that I am completely amazed at the reply which he gave me because since he gave me this reply I have had an opportunity to have read to me, Mr. Chairman, part of the transcript of the evidence of the hearing of the Commission, Industrial Enquiry Commission which the Minister appointed to enquire into conditions at Kelsey. And I want, M-r. Chairman, --- MR. CARROLL: I was just wondering where this information is made available, be cause that Commission has .not reported yet.

I think that if the member has information of this kind it should not be discussed until the report is made public. It's highly unusual. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of telling the Minister where I got this information. I will tell him the page of the evidence from which I am quoting and who made the statement and the Minister can check whether my facts are right or not. If I am wrong the Minister can come and tell this Committee that I am wrong. On page 279 of the transcript, Mr.

Funnell, an employee of the Hydro-Electric Board said, and I quote, "Instruc tions to tenderers required the tenderers to base their wage on the fair wage

schedule of the Fair Wage Act. I will read you paragraph 16 of the instructions to the tenderers. " That's the end of the quote, Mr. Chairman, so there is exactly the instruction that I was asking for when I asked the Minister. On page 301 he says further, "I quote from contractors' liabilities: 'Th e wages shall be no less favourable to the workmen employed on the work than is provided in the Fair Wage Act and the Regulations as scheduled thereinto applicable to a private work under the said Act. "' So I think, Mr. Chairman, that this is a very specific answer.

The Minister said that there were no such instructions. I am not suggesting that the Minister at the time knew that there were instructions, but I am telling this House that there were such in structions. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that--- MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, just to clear up this point. I'll be quite prepared in due course to read a

section from the agreement, which I think is slightly different from the

interpretation that the member is putting on the

section of the Agreement. Now whether he got this honestly or whether he actually has a quote from it I do not know, but certainly that is not the - - MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, did the Honourable the Minister say he wondered if he got it honestly? What does he mean by that? Surely he is not casting reflection on my honourable colleague? MR. CARROLL: No reflection meant. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr.

Chairman, I want to suggest that this is a very serious matter, because in my opinion and in the opinion of people who are in the industry other contractors who bid on the job took this instructions, the instructions which I have read here tonight, seriously. They calculated their bid on using the fair wage rate for labour and they therefore bid high. The company which got the job, MacNamara, Brown & Roote, ignored the instructions from the Hydro-Electric Board.

The Hydro-Electric Board had no organization to police the contract, nor has it such an organization today to police its own contracts and its own instruc tions, and MacNamara, Brown & Roote got the job and is paying lower wages than it should have been paying under the instructions which the Hydro-Electric Board issued. _ Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to deal with another matter. We operate in this province wfth a number of laws. ·O ne of the laws which we operate under, Mr. Chairman, is the Labour Relations Act.

The Labour Relations Act; I have here a copy of the Province of Manitoba Office Consolidation of the Labour Relations Act. Mr. Chairman, it doesn't say southern Manitoba Labour Relations Act; it says the Province of Manitoba. All citizens, I think, are entitled to the same protection of this as eyery other Act. I want to read to this Committee, Mr. Chair man, just a few short sections of that Act.

Section 3, subsection 1, "Every employee has the· right to be a member of a trade union and to participate in the activities thereof. "

Section 4, subsection 1, "No employer, or employer's organization, and no person acting c� bCJhalf of an employer or employer's organization, shall participate in or interfere with the formation or· March 7th, 1960 Page 1317

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd) .... administration of a trade union." I think this i� pretty clear, Mr. Chairman.

Section 4, subs ection 3: "N o em ployer and 'no person acting � behalf of an employ er shall seek by intimidation, by threat of dismissa l or by any kind of t�eat or by imposi tion of a pecuniary or other penalty, or by any other means , to compel an employee to refrain from becoming, or to cease to be a member or officer or representative of a ttade union.

Section 6, subs ection 1: "No person shall seek by intimidation or coersion to comp�i ,an employee to be come, or refrain from becomi ng, or to cease to be a member of a trade tillion. " Now, these are pretty clear instructions, Mr. Chairman. -,.:� , " Now members of this Committee may rerriemtter� or :in:w !lOt, � duri,llg the iast session I asked the then Minister of Labour whether the provisions of this?Act �p"plied.to Kelsey. Whether, in fact, union organizers could exercise the right to goto Kelsey to see people to ask them to join unions.

And the Minister was pretty specific and I want to just quote one of the answers which he gave me. Members will ---this is on page 955 of July 15th, 1959.

My question was with regard to -- I pointed out to the Minister on ::{previous occasion I had asked if union people could go to Kelsey and Minister said they could, I pointed out that one couldn't get a ticket on the train to go from Pitt Skiing to Kelsey and the Minister said, and here I quote his words exactly: "Th ere are other ways of travel than rail," · and there is nothing at all to prevent the honourable member or any member of any union or any citizen to fly into Kelsey, to land at the dock, and there to establish his camp in the arw and to meet p·�ople as he or they may wish .

There is nothing to stop air transport" etcetera. I think that is pretty clear, and I think the Honourable Minister meant this seriously. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have with me copies of some telegrams which I think will indicate how seriously the MacNamara, Brown & Roote took the law of Manitoba and how seriously they considered the opinions of the then Minister of Labour. Here ts a telegram from Mr. D. S. Duncan, Project Manager, MacNamara, Brown & Roote addressed to Mr. W. Corley, International Association of Bridge, Structural and Ornamental Ironworkers . It S"ays, "You will not be allowed on the site.

" Here is another one in which he says, "U nder:stand�you intend to _fly into Kelsey tomorrow. Be advised you will not be allowed to enter theproject.". Here is one dated July 7th, 195 9, "B e advised that no pass will be issued for you to enter the project either by rail or air. " Now here is one, Mr. Chairman, which I think really hits a new low. It says as follow s: "Y ou are granted permission to visit the site"under the f,ollowing · conditions.

(1) You will visit here for business purposes relating only to those people on the project for whom you are the certified bargaining agent, namely Dominion Structural Steel. Stop.

(2) You will be allowed to stay in our guest house at no expense andtmn tour project only under our guidance due to dangers involved.

(3) Your visit will be limited to 48 hours or to time between trains.

(4) You will not approach any employee other than those you are certified bargaining agent for. " Now, Mr. Chairman, I suggest to you that this is $,.complete disregard of the laws of this province which say that people may join unions. Now 'Efthey.-may join --unions surely union organizers may talk to them . "ce MR. CARROLL:" If the member would permit a question? Mr. Ctirley, 1 believe , asked to go in there specifically to service his employee s, not to organize"·the job and I think that's the reason why the telegram was worded as specifically as it is on tl:iat particular date. MR . ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Corley asked to go there for that purpose, because that was the only way he co11ld get there. The Minister knows --"oecause there have been delegations, innumerable delegatioris to see the government-- knows' that MaeNamara, Brown and· Roote has refused and is still refusing to permit union organizers to· get anywhere near the men on the project. This is the nub of the question. Does Mac:Na:mara, Brown. & Roote -- are they required to observe the laws of this province or are they bigget than this province? This .is the question whtcli labour people are asking. · I. am not suggesting,:':Mr.

Chairman, that the Goveril!Ilent of Manitoba or the Hydro-Ele ctric Bo"ard is to instruct MacNamara, Brown & Roote to sign a contract with the unions if the men don1t want to join the unions. But I am suggesting to this Com mittee, Mr. Chairman, that the men -- that the union organizers have a right to talk to the men to ask them to join the unions and that if MacNamara, Brown & Roote can exclude them from the project then it ma kes the whole intent of the law a joke, and nothing more. A rather grim joke for the people concerned, it is true, but in fact a . comp lete negation of the rights of these people.

Page 1318 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd): . Now, on November the 13th _the organizer of the International Hod Carriers Building and Common Labourers Union, Mr. Jules Cusson, put down a statement ofhis experiences, and I want to read just three paragraphs· from that.

And I quotE) il.s follows, and I can give the Minister a copy although I think he probably has a copy or has. seen it. .1\nd here is what he says: "On September 12th, 1959, by chartered flight, flew to tlJ.e Kelsey ·project one and a half mi les behind the present living quarters of the job site knoWn as E:elsey Hydro Project · being built by McNamara-Br own and Root Contractors and conv;(n:sation that took place, first • : with th!' ?ei:urltY gu�Q." :1\ir.

Larcy .i1'allle.s, w_li,o � esid�s : i� the £�� o;f �g,nli<>:U.: who;paid u.s a visit at approxil:nately 2 p, m. that· same afternoon, advised the:owriter ana his associate brother· Dermis. Flynn that they ar.e anticipating our visit. During\the course of our conversa tion Mr. Larry ja mes said the following statement, in effect, thil,t he, at.approximately 11 a. m. of Saturday September 12th, 1959, had been called into Mr.

D. s; Duncap's office on the Kelsey project, and was instructed to take the-numbers, work nutnbers of any employ ees at McNamara- Brown and Root, who attempted to walk in the general direction of where the union organizers were standing." Now why did he want those numbe rs? . For the obvious reason, Mr. Chairman, that anybody who went there would be fired off the job. And if this isn't intimid ation under the provisions of the Act, I don't know what intimidation means . It says here that "During our conversation, the writer asked Mr. D. S.

Duncan if he would interfere with the rights of his employees to join a union of their choosing. To this question there was no answer. " The next question·asked Mr. Duncanby Mr. Denn.is Flynn was, :in effect, if any man of McNamara-Brown and Root came down to see us , would they. be on the next train? The answer from Mr. Duncan was "could be, could be. " We ll, Mr. {{hairman, I suggest there is only one .reason why lVIr� Duncan .would want the numbers of the people who would visit union organiz.ers and that was precisely for the reason I have said, Sir,� they would be fired.

Now, ·here 's -the last paragraph I want.to read, Mr. Chairman, of Mr. Cusson's .affidavit. '' Later in:the afternoon at approximately 2;30 p._ m . . an:Indian chap by the name of Jacob Garson came to our camp and volunteered the following information: That he had heard about the two 1mion organizers cam ping on the poir.t and decided to take a walk and see us. On his way down he observed two checkers and on approaching one of the checkers asked what he was doing.

The answer was that they were taking down the number, work number s of any .employee from MacNamara, Brown & Roote who would endeavour to walk in the general direc tion of where we -'were camped. " Now there, Mr. Chairman, is ·the record. I want to suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Duncan and McNamara-Brown and Root have deliberately and consistently, over the past two years, violated the provisions of the Labour Relations Act. They are as guilty of breaking· the laws of Manitoba as a person who holds up a bank or a person.who sells;liquor. illegally •. I want to suggest tp thjs Co m.rp�ttee, Mr.

Chairman, that . 'other people who:Oreakthe law would soon pe brought to-task by)he poliee=-�nd that the . Attorney-General' woilld-nQt·take two yeats to get on. the job; and:\vhen he got on the job, Mr. ·c hairman, that they would-n't'be giveJ1 a polite little lecture · and li,:pat onfue wrist and say, "Please don't continue. " They wohlQ: be prosecuted and br-ought before the bar of. justice. But Mr.

Chairm an, ·thi s government has ignored the reptesentations_::which have been made to it; many representations; they've ignored the suggestions in this Ho!lse that they take action; they finally appointed anindu strial Enquiries Commission .

I presume that they will take some action when they,get the report, but I wonder just what action they will ta'ke because there is nothing which the Enquiries Commissi on can tell them which they have not already been told on innum erable occ�sions:by representatives cl the unions concetned, becaus'e what has happened at KelS!'IY is a repetition of what International Nickel did.at Thompson. I'm not too concerned, · Mi".

Chairmal;i,, :11t thls stage wttli:Kelsey;· because, unfortunate ly . the l,(elsey project is :4most cmn pleted -- ap eas:t the bulk o(t:he work is done -- and the injuries·to the people who worked .there and the violation of their ,,rights cannot at this stage be . undone. But, . Mr. Chairman, the Minister announced that anoth,�;r projec.t. will begin fairly soon at Grand Rapids and I for one, Mr.

Chair.man, would)ike tl:)<know from the Min_ister what the Government of Manitoba, either in his capacitY as Minister of Public Utilities or in his capacity .as Minister of Labour, what the Government of .Manitoba or. the Hydro-Electric Boar:i intend to do so that we will not have a repetition at Grand Rapids. of what we have had at Kelsey. March 7th, 1960 Page 1319

(Mr. Orli.kow, cont'd) .... I am not asUng, Mr. Chairman, that the government organize the workers on this or any other project. It is the right of workers on any project, government or private, as set forth in the Labour Relations Act, to join or not join unions as they see fit. I'm not asking the Government of Manitoba or the Hydro-Electric Board to organize the workers although, Mr. Chairman, and the Minister probably knows it -- i{he doesn't he can get the information from Mr.

Stevens I'm certain -- that in ·most cases on large construction jobs agreements are signed between the building trade unions and the project organizers before the job even begins. But I'm not asking the government to do that. All !'m asking , Mr. Chair man, is that the government make sure th'lt the people who are building Hyciro Electric Plants for the people of Manitoba shall live up to the law of the province as set forth in the Labour Relations Act.

Certainly we have a right that the government will see that 'on projects organ- . ized by the government and paid for by the people of Manitoba, that the employers will be expected -- should be expected to at least. be as honest -- to at least be as obs ervant of the laws which this legislature and past legislatures have passed as contractors and employers on any private job. I thirik we have at least that right to ask for, Mr. Chairman. MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, this afternoon the member for Ste. Rose gave an excellent account of the situation on northern television.

Following his remarks the member for Fisher pointed out the lack of television in Interlake and I couldn't agree with him more. I would like to inform the committee that we in the Inter lake could have had television had the government not sabotaged the efforts of the Brandon station along with the CBC, putting television into Dauphin, Swan River, The Pas and Fli.n Fion, because a close check of the map shows that a television station erected at Dauphin would s-erve nearly all the area in my constituency which is not presently served by the CBC station in Winnipeg.

During the past while petition after petition has been signed by the people of my constituency and for warded to the powers that be, in an effort to get television brought to them, and up to this time their efforts have been to no avail. It seems inconceivable that a party, who went to the pBople and told them they would do everything in their power to bring them television, should sc uttle the efforts that were so obviously made by the Brandon television station and the efforts of the CBC.

When the true story gets to the people 9f northern Manitoba, � nd I'm thinking particularly of The Pas, I'll be most surprised tf the Minister of Utilities isn't hanged in effigy over the blunder of the government. In previous debate I've asked this-government to consider the possi bility of extending the present policy with the telephone system whereby they will build one mile of road allowance construction free for each subscriber, and up till now the Minister or the government have not seen fit to change this policy.

I would once again like to emphasize the importance of changing this policy to furnish those persons in areas not now serviced because they are the people that really need service. They're further away from the. towns; they need urgent medical assist ance; they are the ones that really need the telephone service and I can't see for the life of me why the government won't extend this policy, because at the present tim e I believe that most of the people in Manitoba who want service and are within the policy now hav:e telephone se rvice.

A gentleman, a bus iness man the other day approached me about getting a direct line for his business because at the present time he is using his telephone roughly for $500 a ye ar in long distance telephone charges. He is getting the same service as those persons on the same line who are paying $2 .6 5 a month, and it seems unfair to me that this gentleman shouldn't receive better treatment when he is providing the telephone company with such enormous rev enues each year, considering the service that he is getting.

As it is now, he wants to make a call to Winnipeg and he has to travel to the next town to make his call because there may be eight or ten other persons possi bly listening in if they chose to do so. And I would ask the government to ser iously consider assi sting, or changing the poli.cy whereby a.man, a business man in this case, would get better attention than he has been in the past. He is prepared to pay more money for the service but the government of the day want him to pay over $1000 to provide this service, and I think it is just too much.

He just can't afford that type of payment. · Another item I would like to touch on, or ask the Minister, is regarding the licensing of trucks . I've had a number of complaints from truck owners who have CT and PSV licenses that they have to make a sp ecial trip into the city to purchase this license,

whereas I think it Page 1320 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd) •••.. would be just as easy for the government or the Utility Board to send out an application form to the trucker who in previous years has had this type of license and then he could send in a cheque, a certified cheque if that's what they'd want, and save him making a special trip into the city to obtain his license. Motorists are able to get their license through the mail and it seems hard for me to believe that the truck owner or the CT and PSV owners can't get the same service.

During the past year the government has set up a board to review licenses of drivers who have be.en sus pended, and one of the unfair things about this board is the $20 charge that each applicant must make before his application will be considered. I know the Minister in the past has said that at the discretion of the board that this $20 can be returned to the applic ant, but there seems to be some confusion somewhere because when you ask the board about it they say it's a mandatory $20 and there is no return. Now the Minister says there is .

I wish he'd tell the board about it -- (Interjection)-- I'm not complaining about the Act, I'm complaining about the $20 charge. MR . CARROLL: The provision is in the Act. MR. GUTTORMSON: That was probably done by Order-in-Council. MR . CARROLL: No .•.. MR . GUTTORMSON: You're unlucky -- (Interjection)-- I know of some persons who have a terrific hardship because they have lost their licenses, and because of the $20 fee to have their applications heard, are just not able to have the board review their cases.

I think it's a serious injustice to these people because the board was supposed to have been established to help those persons whose livelihood was jeopardized by the loss of their li.cense. And as I said before, the board when asked about this $20, they say there is no appeal on it and the Minister says they can get it back -- (Interj ectioi\)-- That isn't the argument at all. You say that they can get it back; the board says they can't get it back. Now which is true ? Another matter that I would like to have the Minister touch on is that of the licenses for Manitoba truckers .

There seems to be some discri mination between the Manitoba truckers and those in the United States. American trucks can come into Manitoba and go back with fish and other produce,

whereas the same courtesy is not extended to our local truckers. It seems to me that this discrimination should be stopped because I don't know why the American truckers should get special privileges over the Manitoba truckers. I think the Minister knows what I am talking about and I would appreciate him, when he replies tonight, to explain why this discrim ination exists at the present time. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, maybe I should touch on some of these points that have been mentioned because I must confess there are getting to be quite a few. Dealing with the last speaker first, the member for St. George.

I think his remarks about television and the efforts of the government which sabotaged Northwest Electronics, and apparently scuttled Brandon, can be dealt with probably better when I deal witlJ. the remarks of the member from Ste. Rose. I think I understood you correctly to say that now that most people in Manitoba had been served by telephones, that we should now consider the policy of expanding our policy with respect to the one mile per customer in rural Manitoba.

I would like to say that last year was the greatest expansion in the telephone system in the history of the province, in which there was something -- well just 10 telephones short of 19, 000-- the biggest year as I say in their history, so I think there is no suggestion that everybody in the province have telephones. There's still plenty of expansion possi ble and I think that the system would be only too happy to expand beyond this one mile limit if it wer� economic, if the cost could be absorbed by the system without seriously affecting the whole rate structure that we have here in the province.

Now I can't say that I know all about the request of the individual for a direct line service. However, I did see a letter a few days ago which seemed to indicate to me that this particular cus tomer suggested at least that he paid about $300 per year in long distance charges. I believe the figure that the member from St. George is using is $500. There appears to be quite a discre pancy there.

However, in investigation we find that he actually is not paying these long distance charges but they are being reversed and being paid by various wholesales throughout the City of Winnipeg, and apparently we can get no information to confirm actually how· much revenue that particular telephone is bringing in, and under the circumst ances we March 7th, 1960 Page 1321

(Mr. Carroll , cont1d) .... can only quote him on the basis that we would quote to anybody else that the customer should pay the additional capital cost of providing the spe�ial service that he would be receiving. I was not aware that you could not renew CT and PSV licenses by mail. I think it is a very good point and one which I V<'ill pass along to the department ,if this particular service is not already available. However, if it's the question of applying initiallyior the service, then an application must be made before the board of course .

The question of the $20 charge to appear before the Appeal Board ':�:- it is spelled out -very clearly in the Act that if in the view of the Board there are exceptiona:;l::�hardships they can remit the charge, the $20 fee, for appearing before the board. It seems inctonceivable to me that anyone who can afford to drive cannot afford at least the $20 to appear_before the board. However, this in fact may be a reality but no cases have come to my attention where people were dissuaded from appearing before the board because of financial inability to make that appearance.

There has been in the papers recently some talk about United States truckers having some preferential treatment over M:anitoba truckers� and I would li.ke to point out that this frankly is not the case. All Manitoba truckers must have PSV licenses in order to run a franchise operation between here and the border. We do have rl:)ciprocity agreements with many states in the union and those trucks who can travel to our border will have reciprocal arrangement, that they can come in to our province and return loaded in some cases with fish and other produce.

This is something which is being considered very carefully by the board at this time and we would hope that we might be able to arrive at a more equitable solution with respect to these haulers from the United States. In the United States they have a special arrangement for those truckers which haul unmanufactured agricultural products and they can run free throughout the States, and these are the truckers which apparentl:y::are coming into this province and about which we have had some comp laints lately.

However, all Manitoba truckers are treated the same and some efforts are being made at the present tune to get some control over the foreign operators that are coming into our province. With respect to the questions raised by the honourable member who is not in his seat now, regarding Kelsey -- (Interjection)-- Good, good, good.

The instructions which went out to contractors, or the instructions which were written into the agreement with respect to the Kelsey job reads as follows -- and I would like to read this out for the benefit of the House - "E xcept as these general conditions expressly provided, the price or prices. payable to the contractor under his tender and the agreement resulting therefrom, whether at unit price, bulk sum price, or otherwise, shall not be subject to adjustment or be increased or decreased by increased or decreased costs to the contractor whether for wages, material, or otherwise, over or below those contemplated by him at the time of making the tender, -provided however, that the direct labour costs entered into unit prices and bulk sum prices as'�distinct from the C•Jst of materials, overhead, indirect supervision and the Ii.ke, shall be subJect to 'ad]ilstment for changes to direct labour costs as herein provided.

For the purpose of this paragraph, 50% of each unit price and bulk sum price shall be deemed to represent dire'Ct labour cost. Such adjustment shall be made monthly upon filling in progress estimates for the previous month and shall be based upon the average hourly earnings on an assumed 54 hour week for a comp osite group of trades as hereinafter detailed at Thompson, M:anitoba, hereinafter called The TI10mpson Labo•u Index; the average hourly earnings as at M:ay 1, 1951 on the assumed 54 hour week for an identical composite group of trades in the Winnipeg ar�a, hereinafter called the Winnipeg Labour Index.

It shall be accepted as the base and the :percentage of in crease or decrease will be obtained by a compa rison of the monthly Thomp�;�cm Labour Index to be comp uted on the 15th day of each month with the Winnipeg Labour ind!i]L '' · Now I think that that's fairly specific. I could read on, but it says)hat the price to the contractor shall vary insofar as the Thompson Labour Index varies with the Winnipeg Labour Index. The price that the contractor pays to his employees is another thing again, but the only relation to this labour index is insofar as the contractor receives his pay from the Hydro-Electric Board.

Now as I pointed out at the time of bringing this in initially, there were two large jobs going on in the area at the same time and to prevent the contractor from making provisions Page 1322 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Carroll , cont'd) •••.• for unusually high wages which he might have had to pay in that area, inflated wages such as occurred on the Dew Line and in Kitimat and places like that where the wage rates were subs tantially higher than the normal rates of pay in urban areas , so we said we wanted the best price we could get, therefore, we will compensate you for any increase you have or for any increase that there may be in this labour index at Thompson as it varies above the labour index in Winnipeg.

The Thompson job being the larger job, we felt that the Kelsey wage rate would certainly reflect the wage s that would have to be paid at Thompson at that particular time. I don't know now whether I should put on my other hat to talk about labour or not. but I think my honourable friend seems to misinterpret the Labour Relations Act. I don't think the Labour Relations Act says that a labour union has the right to go in to organize men. It does say that every employee has the right to be a member of a trade union and so on, but I think that is where some of the misinterpretation comes in.

I don't want to comment on this further because I think the House is well aware that there is an Industrial Enquiry Commission sitting at the present time on this subject, which will have I think more authoritative information than what any gentleman in this House can provide this committee with at this time . The Member for Emerson -- I think that my colleague the Minister of Public Works was in the House at the time that these rema rks were made and will probably have taken note of your suggestion that the gray sign posts be removed when the signs have been taken down.

Insofar as beer bottles on highways are concerned and the penalty for windshield glass, I think if my honourable friend had been with us during the time of the discussions of the Highway Traffic Act, I think he would have seen that provisions are in the new Highway Traffic Act to _ take care of broken glass on highways, and beer bottles and so on.

With respect to the extension of Manitoba Power Commissi on service in the Moose Lake area, which is a very beautiful lake , and I must offer my condolences that all the fish have died, but I think that as far as the Manitoba Power Commissi on and the extension of their service is concerned, that if this is an econom c proposition or comes-close to an economic proposition,_ or if the future expansion will warrant this kind of a proposition; in other words, if it's that close and we can anticipate growth, I'm sure the -power will be provided to that area.

In view of the very beautiful country and all those fine things that the member sa id about it, I am sure that some energetic promoter might certainly take this up as a commercial proposition and undertake to pay any additional charges that might be required. He'll recoup them when the area develops as the result of sales through other people in the area and so on. Well I think this is something he could maybe take home and consider for awhile and see if he can't promote during the long summer months.

With respect to the telephone service at Badger and Carrick I would be very pleased to pass that information along to Mr. Mills. I'm rather surprised that it hasn't already been brought to his attention, or perhaps it has. , Has this been brought to his attention previously? Carrick and so on? It has. The same answer there. It is not a commercial proposition, is that right? Yes. I think that we'l l find that the policy of the system is to co-operate in every way they can to see their service is expanded to meet the needs of the people of this pro"ince.

I would like to advise the Honourable Member from Emerson that in spite of the fact that we do not have television in northern Manitoba, that we do not have any second class citizens in that area. Retail appliances were discontinued I believe, September 1st, 195�. The member from Seven Oaks was discussing the provision of telephone se:rvice in the Greater Winnipeg area and mentioning the very large number of two-party and multi-party lines. I believe he said something in the order of 70, 000.

Well that may be quite true, and as you know, we announced in the House last year that we were embarking upon a program in which we co•Jld give very fast relief to this particular situation, in fact, we were aiming at a five year program that would upgrade som e 50, 000 telephones in the Greater Winnipeg area to the point where we would take care of all those on two-party service who would desire the single party service.

You will recall that that was mentiO'ned at estimate time last year and I have a report here that they have upgraded during the last year 5842 two-party subscribers in the 11 months of the last fiscal year, They say it is interesting to note that 587 subscribers who were offered straight line service preferred to retain the two-party service so that's about Hi% who desire to remain with the two-party service that they were getting. They felt that March 7th, :1960 , Page 1323

(Mr. Carroll , contid.) .•••• this was adequate. Of this group who wanted to remain with two party service, 98% said they were s<.tisfied with the two-party service; 2%. said they couldn't afford the additional monies required to upgrade to the single party service. The Leader of the CCF party has raised some very interesting pomts , about automobile insurance to begin with. I think and I didn't correct him at that time, but he referred to a statement that I had made in connection with compulsory automobile insurance.

I think I said that where a compulsory assigned risk plan is operated in conjunction with the compulsory in surance feature, then there is less incentive for that individual to maintain a safe record, be cause under the assigned risk plan he is warned that if he is not very careful that he �ill lose his insurance and will therefore lose his right to drive an automobile . This is a very import ant feature and one that I would like to point out to the Leader of the CCF party. MR . PAULLEY: Does that not prevail where there is compulsory automobile insurance ? MR .

CARROLL: What I had suggested was that in some areas they have a compulsory assigned risk plan in conjunction with the driver licensing program, and if a man owns a driv er's licence he must be insured. Here we say yes, that's fine, but you must find you own in surance and make your own arrangements for insurance. It's not compulsory and in some cases the assigned risk plan won't accept these people because their record is too bad.

They are warned when they're taken on this plan that if they get out of line at all their insurance would be cancelled, so I think there is that kind of a feature to this program of ours . With respect to the news release in which -- there was some discussion a while ago --I have checked with the news release itself and I find that there was a misquote here, at least it's different from the way it left our press release here. It does say in the Free Press on Janu ary 20th that Mr. Evans did say this .

However , in the government news release that went out, it said that, "the government had considered a recommendation of the Provincial Natural Gas Enquiry Commission which suggested that the Public Utility Board be used at hearings outside the province to protect Manitoba's interests . Mr . Carroll said it was felt. however, that as the Utility Board had to sit in a neutral semi-judicial capacity within the province, it would be im proper for it to take a partisan role on similar subjects outside the province ." I t;trink that pretty well sums up the government's view with respect .•••.. MR .

PAULLEY: I wonder if the Minister would mind reading that once again. l\ffi. CARROLL: Yes, I'd be very pleased to. MR. PAULLEY: Particularly the part that mentions the neutrality or semi-judicial aspects of .... •• MR . CARROLL: Mr. Carron said it was felt, however, that as the Utility Board had to sit in a neutral semi-judicial capacity within the province, it would be improper for it to take a partisan role on similar subjects outside the province .

In other words , we can see a case where the Public Utilities Board may be actively pursuing a course of action outside the province, possibly on telephone rate hearings before the Board of Transport or some other hearings of that kind, and then they must come back here and sit in an impartial way and hear both sides of the story and make up their minds without being prejudice d. Now !t hink that this is a role that we feel the Board should not be required to be in. I notice that it's suggested that the board should take a more active role in the protect ing of the public interests . Are they performing?

I think the question is answered in the close liaison between the board to begin with and the Department of Industry and Commerce and I think that we must· say that the Government of Manitoba was well represented at these board hearings .· Our case was made known to the board members well in advance by the Minister of Industry and Commerce himself, and we kept a very close watching brief during the time of the hearings to ensure that those points which Manitoba was interested in was brought to the atten tion of the commission at that time . My friend is asking if the reserves for Manitoba have been guaranteed •.

Well I think that this is really the job that the Energy Board are set up to do . They're set up to find out whether or not there are adequate reserves to take care of the needs of Canada before they consider any export to the United States. I think that while we show great concern in this particular thing at the moment, this is the prime function of that board and we'll certainly be looking forward with interest to get their report. Now with respect to the 'reserve, I think that there is some evidence that the needs of Canada will be protected for some length of time.

However , Perhaps we shouldn't comment on that until the official word is out from the commissi on itself. · Page 1324 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Carrell, cont'd.) ••••• With respect to the question of uniformity of accounts -_-what pro gress has been made with respect to the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company? Well we have had . meetings with the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company; we've taken on two special accountants to work along with the Board and the companies in setting up a uniform system of accounts and this work is now in progress. In my opening remarks a few days ago there was some mention made of setting up a rate base at some lat er date this year .

The purpose of that is to consider those assets and make sure that those assets are on the books at a realistic figure at this particular time . You will recall that the rate base was spelled out in our public utilities legis lation as being the historic cost of assets prudently acquired, less depreciation, plus a reasonable amount for working capital .

Well I think the purpose of these rate hearings, at least these rate base .hearings, will be to make sure that the assets on the books of the opera ting gas companies in the Greater Winnipeg area and in Manitoba are in reality set up accord ing to this particular formula. This will assist immeasureably in a uniform system of account ing and in any a,ssets that are added to this system as time goes on. The Public Utility Board report as to the operation of the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company ! believe that I read that

section of the report out in full on Friday night. And this is taken from the Board Order dated January 26th and reads as follows: " after making such enquiries as it · considered necessary, subject only to receipt from the company of audited financial statements confirming preliminary information furnished by the company, the board is of the opinion that the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company has made satisfactory progress during 1959 towards ful filling the undertakings made pursuant to the findings of the Natural Gas Enquiry Commission of Greater Winnipeg.

" Now in this respect of course the Public Utilities Board have at their disposal certain technical advisors, accountants , and engineering advisors, to assist them in making an appraisal of the situation and we have complete confidence in the reports that we have been getting from them in this regard.

I think that there is adequate protection -- I glanced through the Public Utilities Board today and I'm quite sure that there is the kind of protection there that's necessary to make sure that these dealings of the company witli respect to other companies, the insurance is there , that we are required to protect the public interest and make sure that they're getting value for their money in the gas business . Now we go for a moment to a more interesting subject and that is television. However, before I do I would like to comment first of all on the pulpwood hauling problem of the member for Fisher.

You know we've heard a great deal in the House in the last few months about dis crimination against this constituency of Fisher so we , at least somebody decided that they should inspect motor vehicles in that area; enforce the law in that area the same as in any other

section .of the Province of Manitoba; so we want you to know that you don't have to feel discriminated against any ·more because we're giving you the sam'e treatment exactly as we're providing to the other parts of the province. I also note that he wants television the same as other members in the House, and he has my full sympathy in this res pect -- (Interjection).- - Sympathetic consideration. Now I notice that the Member for Ste. Rose has made some very interesting statements about television, beginning with their arrangement with Northwest Electronics .

The history of the Northwest Electronics -- an agreement was signed with that company on June 11th, 1958 ,a very important date because June 15th I believe or 16th, I don't recall at the moment, was an election date . It's very strange that this contract which was signed on the 11th should have been so widely publicized throughout the Province of Manitoba, because even in the Town of Church ill we were told that if you elect a Liberal Government that you would have television. in that area within three months. This is how the news of this particular contract travelled through out the province .

My honourable friend tells us that the government never gave it a fair chance; we never gave any assistance. Well frankly I don't know what more assistance we could have given. I don't have a copy of the contract with me at the moment, but as I recall it, the Northwest Electronics was to do two things. One, they were to get a licence from the Department of Transport; and number two , they were to get permission from the CBC to carry the programming.

Now as I recall, they had done neither when they approached me late in August and they wanted -- at that time they said they were talking in terms of a temporary licence of some kind for testing this particular system. Well before we get there though, I'm just wondering how it is that our honourable friends , March 7th, 1960 Page 1325

(Mr. Carron, cont'd. ) .•••• who say that they're so concerned about television and everything else, did not look into this system to see whether it had a reasonable chance of performing the way this com pany said this equipment of theirs would perform. We have no evidence here, that I've seen that Northwest Electronics had any chance of success over the kind of distances that our honourable friends were trying to carry this particular signal.

In fact, I. think that the people in Ottawa were looking pretty seriously at this thing because they had had no evidence that this system would work over the kind of distances that they were contemplating. However, we didn't give it a fair chance of success. However, Mr. Parker came to me around the end of August and asked me to provide them with sites and power and other things so that they could continue and carry out their contract with the government. Well that was fine except that he still at that time didn't have his temporary licence.

However, in anticipation of a temporary .licence, and we did some telephone calling to see if we couldn't hurry this thing along on behalf of Mr. Parker, we did send out a man from the Lands Branch to assist iri. selecting sites for our friend. We even made available a portable generator from the Manitoba Power Commission and we interceded to make arrangements for our friend to place a tower in Riding Mountain National Park, because there's nothing in the National Park's Act that would allow them to p�t a television tower up.

In view of the fact that the Manitoba Government had requested it I be lieve that special considerations were made and that tower was placed in there so that these people could conduct their tests. Well now, .the tests were carried out and we all know what the results of the tests were. They had two tests, one mid-January and one towards the end of January or early February, and the tests were a failure. They did not get their licence and we paid them off, and I think we paid them som ething like $8, 000. The former member from Flln Flon said in this House, he said it was a gamble .

We thought it would work, although Heaven knows they had ne:ver tried to find out whether it would work or not, but they gambled on it; they lost; they spent $18, 000 of the province's money on this pipedream that was to get television north. Now we said at that time, at least a year ago, that this Northwest Electronics scheme was holding up television.

Well I think that we honestly thought at that time that this y.ras the case, because there had been a great many enquiri.es from Dauphin, from Brandon,, from York ton, from Calgary and other places, for people who appeared to be interested in getting a television station who appeared to be interested in getting ·further information with respect to providing television to the people of that part of the country • .

There was some mention of a Board of Broadcast Governors' meeting held in the summer of 1959 where the Brandon stations were making an application for the provision of service to Dauphin, Swan River, The Pas and Flin Flon. Well certainly the Board of Broadcast Governors knew that we as a province were in favour of a Manitoba network as opposed to a Saskatchewan station coming in from the other way. They were certainly wellaware of the case that we pre sented to the CBC in July of that year.

But to say that we did not support Brandon is a mistake, because Brandon's whole application was premised on the CBC network carrying on the program ming. He said if you carry my .program I'll put up ·some stations that would give a degree of coverage to the people in .that area. And the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose says that they'll give complete coverage; there'll be no antennas; nothing like this .

Well I thiitktliat's a very in teresting statement because a very surprising thing-- I woUldn't want the member· to· miss it be cause the Brandon station--the Brandon series of stations,- four stations, one at Dauphin, Swan River, The Pas and Flin Flon, those four stations would serve 33, 150 people. The Yorkton ap plication on the other hand, according to the calculations that we'.ve got,. would serve 37 ,2 0.0 with one station only.

Well I think that the ass umption can be made that while Brandon were making an offer which we certainly were not unfriendly to at all, but it would certainly indicate to me that the kind of stations that they were providing weren't adequate to get the kind of coverage that was necessary to serve the people of our province. When you have 33, 000 people served with four stations as com pared to 37, 200 served by one station only, I think this is a rather in teresting point. I'm wondering-- I'm going so quickly here I seem to be missing some of the im portant things that I had wanted to say.

I'd just like to draw the attention of the House to a statement that I made here a year ago when we .,, ... ,,:e discussi ng Northwest Electronics. Apparently, Mr. Parker was trying in many ways to put pressure on the Provincial Government, why I don't know because he was getting our fullest co-o peration, but he undertook to write a letter, and all the Page 1326 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. Carroll, cont'd. ) .• time he hadn't done any of those things that he was to have done with respect to this contract. He wrote to the fo rmer member from Flin Flon and said that we weren't co-Operating; he wrote to the Mayor of Flin Flon and said we weren't co-operating. He told a different story to the people of Dauphin because he told the people of Dauphin they'd have television within a month and was trying to promote the sale of television sets in the Dauphin area at the same time.

But I wrote to the former member, at least at that time the member for Flin Flon because he was still a member then, and I did say to him that I would appreciate hearing from him further if he felt that there was anything that we could do that we weren't do ing to assist Mr. Parker. Now I outlined at that time very fully all those things that we were doing to assist him, and my letter to him at that time was dated on September 9th and I have yet to'hear fr om the member from Flin Flon. He had no suggestions to offer except that we weren't helping out, but he would offer no concrete suggestions.

I notice some very interesting remarks here about--oh, yes, it says the MTS was quite prepared to go--at least all that Brandon was asking was extra equipment on the MTS micro wave line. The CBC would pay the rental, that's the statement my honourable friend made, the CBC would pay the rental and the CBC was prepared to make concessions ; that is, they would delay certain decisions until others could be heard I suppose. Well we had several meetings with the CBC. One of them resulted in a technical team who came out here to survey the tele vision situation.

They travelled the country; they tried to assess the number of people and so on. My honourable friend says the technical report was never made public. Well I must con fess that this technical report really has never been made public . We've never seen it; we don't know exactly what the result was.

The only thing we know was that we provided certain info rmation to the CBC, who in turn I suppose added their costs for the transmitters ; and they told us at that time that it would cost, and this is without some of the refine ments, it would cost approximately $17, 000 --I'm sorry, $17 per television home; and they told us at that time too that the extensions which they were making were running in the order of $6 .0 0 to $7 . 00.

I assumed by that statement that they certainly were taking things in the order of priority, so that if we wanted to qualify our price would have to be in the order of $6. 00 to $7 . 00 per tele vision home rather than the $17. 00 which was being quoted then. Well I think it would be very interesting to--my friend is talking about the 15 -year write-off, the 5. 25% interest and so on. Well the write-off is over a 15-year period because this is the length of time that our engineers tell us that this equipment should be depreciated over. They say that all electronics equipment depreciates over a 15- year period.

It's very special equipment and I suppose that we must accept their advice in matters of this kind. Now the contract quoted an interest rate of 5.25. This contract is no different from any of the oth ers for special services that are made by the Manitoba Telephone System, and they have con tracts of various kinds with rights-of-way companies, with railroads, with pipe lines; they have contracts with other communications carriers; they have contracts with private industry; Department of National Defence and many others; and this is the only practical way in which they can handle their depreciation.

It would be impractical to have a number of ways of pro viding for depr�aciation ·in a. system of this kind. This is the way that the contracts have been let for many years, and one question that I wonder about is if it were altered, would not the Public Utility Board wonder whether it was proper to unduly diff erentiate between various cus tomers in this system? A straight line method of depreciation is recognized as sound business practice. It's approved by all the rate-making authorities in Canada; and all the telephone util ities are operating under this same system of depreciation.

It's a part of the unifo rm system of accounts for telephone utilities. It's also a principle which was recognized and was recom mended by the chartered accountants who worked with the Royal Commission advising the Goldenberg Commission that reported on the-operation of the telephone system in 1939. Now the question has been asked, what has this government done with respect to tele vision?

Well, we've had two official delegations who've travelled east to meet with the CBC; we've set fo rth certain concrete suggestions with, respect to how a solution may be found to this problem of supplying television to the north. The Telephone System has co-operated in pro viding the technical material that's necessary, and we think they've done it at quite reasonable cost. On the last quotation of the MTS their figure per mile runs at $45 per mile, and the standard cost, I would say the average cost may be slightly higher; but a cost that is used by a March 7th, 1.960 . Page 1327

(Mr. Carroll; cont'd. ) .. great many com panies works out to $55 per mile so that the price which is actually quoted by the systerr' for this particular extension is reasonable in compari son to what other utilities were quoting; and of course we have very difficult terrain to cover in getting this facility to the north. Well the contract that has been discussed is a ten-year con tract and we're writing off our assets over a 15-year period, which leaves five years that are unaccounted for.

Our operating and maintenance charges that were quoted on this particular extension were for present-day costs and it's reasonable of course to assume that possibly these costs might change in the next few years. Well now we don't have the network; it hasn't been approved at the present time, but it isn't because the ca pital costs or the annual charges have been too high. The plain fact of the matter is that there haven't been sufficient people in that area to justify this television service within the present policy of the CB C.

Now we're working to find a way in which this can be done, and as I said before, we're meeting shortly to discuss this matter further. But we have made very concrete and very conscientious efforts with respect to television, and I think our record is outstanding by comparison to the efforts of the previous government with respect to this same problem. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education)(Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, the Honourable the Member for Ste.

Rose very graciously made reference to the constituency which I have the honour to represent, and to make also some reference to a statement which I made on another occasion concerning the subject of television.· I would like to speak briefly in this comm ittee concerning this important subject. Now, Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the members of this com mittee who are interested in the subject of television and the provision of television to north ern Manitoba.

It is an important service for which all of those people are providing, helping to pay through the medium of their taxes and through the usual tax support for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which is the instrument through which Canada provides radio and television services to our people. I believe that it is the job and the function of the CBC to pro vide that service for the people of central ;:tnd northern Manitoba, indeed as it is their job and function to provide it for the people of other parts of Canada as well. Now the difficulty about the speech of the Honourable the Member for Ste.

Rose is that he speaks as though television were only discovered on the 30th of June, 1958; as though the Brandon television station were only discovered on the 30th of June , 1958; and as though northern Manitoba only existed as from the 30th of June , 19 58. If he will direct himself to the facts, which are always interest ing, he will probably not be so much impressed with the line of reasoning which he has present ed to this House. Now the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Chairman, that all of these facts were here and existed quite some time before we became responsible for what goes on in the Prov ince of Manitoba. And there are two important things which illustrate the extent to which the previous administration in this province, which was supported by the member for Ste. Rose, bungled the whole matter of providing television service to the people of central and northern Manitoba.

The Honourable the Member for Emerson says it's the worst bungle in the history of Manitoba, and that's taking in a lot of territory considering the long time we had a Liberal administration in this province. But if anybody bungled it was those who are now opposite and who at one time sat on this side. Let us just take a look at the picture.

The Manitoba Telephone System , no doubt with the concurrence of the government and as part of a policy that was developed, built across the Province of Manitoba from east to west the Manitoba portion of the Trans-Ca nada microwave system and. they equipped that system with the necessary devices to carry the television signal.

They did that in order to carry, under contract with the Ca nadian Broadcasting Corporation, television signals from east to west and no doubt from west to east on just the carrier through the province, and also to carry that same signal to a television station established at the City of Brandon in the Province of Manitoba. So they were aware of the fact that you could equip microwave towers with the necessary equipment to carry television signals. They were in the business. The Manitoba Telephone System established that line. Then they did something else.

They constructed a microwave system starting at Brandon, linking in with the ·Trans-Canada system; they constructed a microwave system extending up through the Riding Mountain Nation ai Park through the Garden of Eden at Dauphin, up through Swan River to The Pas and Flin Flon. That was done in the years 1956 and 195'! when the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose was Page �.328 March 7th, 1960

(Mr. McLean, cont'd. ) •. sitting on this side of the House supporting the government of that day. And what did they do? With all this experience, knowing that the towers could be equipped to carry the television signals, in fact carrying it to the City of Brandon, what did they do? They constructed the whole system without making one effort to provide the facilities to carry televisi on service to northern Manitoba. Now northern Manitoba was there at that time; they didn't have television.

They lmew that and they lmew that these towers could be equipped to do that job; and yet for what reason no one will ever know, it would be interesting to have an explanation, they constructed that whole system from Brandon to Flin Flon andnot one tower equipped to car ry television service. Now, Mr. Chairman, there is the bungle; there's Where the mistake was made; and they were the people who made it.

If they had used their ingenuity for one minute and applied the knowledge which they already had, those towers would have been equipped for the purpose of carrying the television signal and no problem would have existed in the provision of television service to every part of that part of the Province of Manitoba. And I say, Sir, that if anyone is going to lay blame for the fact that there is no television provided to the people of Dauphin and northern Manitoba, that's where it belongs, l;Jecause the whole matter could have been settied at that time.

Now the second thing to add to this bungle of the previous administration occurred, it was a deathbed repentance I must admit, on the lOth of June, 195 8, and six days before that great day, the 16th of June, 1958. And what happened then? What happened? By a letter of authority·, not by an ·agreement, by a letter of authority the Government of Manitoba, the then Government of Manitoba entered into an arrangement with a firm, Northwest Electronics, to construct a number of towers under a system that had never been operated in the Dominion of Canada at any place with anything more than one tower.

There was no experience to show that anything more than one tower under that particular system would operate, but they made this deal to provide a series of towers that would, theoretically at least, transmit television pro grams. But what was the deal? What was the deal? The deal was $50, 000 to construct five towers. To where ? To Dauphin--not northern Manitoba, to Dauphin. Although they represent ed that it was a plan to provide television for all of northern Manitoba no such arrangement had been made, but it was an arrangement to erect five towers for $50, 000 to take television to Dauphin.

Well that was a very important project but it wasn't providing television to northern Manitoba and my learned--pardon me--the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose was supporting the government of that day who made that arrangement and he has no right, Mr. Chairman, to stand up in this House and point his finger at anybody over here . But not only was that a half baked idea and a half-baked deal to begin with, but it did something else, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, it stopped everything else because of course when you had this kind of a deal going on no one else was likely to become interested, least of all the CBC who were the people who should have been interested, and so we had to wait until this series of towers were erected; until they w!)re tested; and until the Department of Transport had an opportunity of testing them. And there was the greatest cloak of mystery about this whole arrangement. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, I have a pretty good idea that the government of the day knew even before the 16th of June that this scheme wouldn't work, but as my colleague the Minister of Public utilities has pointed out, it was described by another member in this House on a previous occasion as a gamble, and gamble indeed it was. But we lost the time; we lost the time while this fantastic idea was being expedmented with and of course it turned out to be not satisfactory and that's most unfo

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-35a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 35a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	8059d067ebfbefa2162c456b0ae633baf36fa7e7

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