ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature oflhe Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publlahed under the auttrorlty of The Honourable D. Jame• Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 568 - 8:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 28 APRIL, 1983. Printed by lhe Office of the O._,s Printer. Province ot Mlilnilobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMP HILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW. Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Cancordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charl eswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-R ussell St. Norbert Assi niboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 28 April, 1983. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The committee will please come to order . The Member for Thomp son had the floor when we broke for the Private Members' Hour. The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Prior to supper adjournment, I gave my prelimi nary remarks in regard to a number of concerns that I have and concerns actually that my constituents have about the air ambula nce, or as the Minis ter called it, the patient transportation sys tem. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Medical evacuation aircraft. MR. S. ASHTON: The Member for Pembina says medical evacuation aircraft. I believe the Minis ter used a different term. The term is not of concern to me, Mr. Chairman. The system and how it works is the area of concern. I know that the Mini ster has received feedback from the nursing association at the provincial level, and I'm sure that much of that feedback about the present system came from nur ses in the Thom pson area because they deal perhaps most extensively with the Citation aircraft.

One comment they've always made to me is that it's very difficult in a lot of cases to put patients of the kind that they are on those aircraft. You know, often they are fairly seriously ill and obviously have to be fairly ill in the first place to have the ai rcraft called in, but in a lot of cases they are on stretchers and it's very difficult to load stretchers in that aircraft. Now, that aircraft, the Citation, is a very nice aircraft. I've had occasion to ride in it on a number of occasions myself, but as the Mini ster pointed out, I don't think it's really suited for pur poses of an ambulance.

Now, given the fact that was pu rchased prior to his tenure in office, I can see that there isn't much that can be done in that area. One area, though, I think that could be looked at is the possibility of locating that Citation in Thompson. The Mini ster ind icated that is being looked at and I'm very pleased to see that. I realize that it would require service capabilit y, but I think it could greatly improve the potential of the system to serve northern Manitobans.

The Citation can land at a number of airstrips in the North; it's not restricted solely to Thompson, so it does not have to be limit ed to Winnipeg- Thompson runs. By locating it dir ectly in Thompson, it could be used within the North and then could be used to send the patient requiring the transportation directly to Winnip eg, rather than requiring the use of two ai rcraft as is often the case at the present time. So I would certainly hope the Min ister would give complete consideration to locating the Citation in Thompson.

While it isn't the perfect airc raft for the purpose that it was purcha sed for, it's certainly the quick est ai rcraft available in terms of moving patients to Winnip eg and by having it located in Thompson, I think there may very well be some possibility of improving the time in which patients can be served. So, with those two comments, Mr. Chairman, I'm quite willing to allow the Estima tes of this sect ion to be passed. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think I should re-empha size what I said earl ier, and that is that we had looked at the question of locating the ai rcraft at Thompson and the recommendations were that there would be no advantage. I thought I dealt with that more fully earlier on this afternoon; the reason being that, by and large, most patients that are transpor ted from Thompson to Winnip eg are brought in from other remote communi ties to Thompson. There's usually enough notice given to have the Citation fly up to meet them at Thompson. Diagnosis usually takes a fair amount of time, diagnosis of the patient.

We don't beli eve and it is not our opinion that there is undue delay to transport patients to Winnip eg, although I'm not saying it couldn't occur. There's a cost factor of relocation and many other things, but that doesn't mean that that is a firm position. The point that the member makes is valid, I sup pose, to some degree. One of the things that shouldn't be overlooked and that is that there are expectations that shouldn't be built up in Northern Manitoba that somehow they have a eligibility for service far in excess of what is available to southern Manitobans.

There are many dis tances, many miles that may be travelled in southern Manitoba from point A to point B, from one hospital to another in an emergency vehicle. Just because it is in the North doesn't mean that there's an automatic jet service. The jet service is inde ed for what we would consider to be a true emergenc y, but not for convenience so to speak. Convenience can be awfu lly expensiv e and if we're going to promis e convenience then we should do it for all Manitobans. That should not be lost sight of.

The points that were made by the nurses zeroed in on the question of not an adequate ambula nce aircraft. They have not got the message that we never did have, nor was it ever intended that we have an ambula nce aircraft. Now maybe we should have one. But they are com plaining about the lack of faci liti es on our ambula tory air service. Their perception of what we're doing is totally wrong. That is not what that ai rcraft is intended for at the present time.

If the Health Services Commission wants to enrich their service, then it will be a major policy decision no doubt where we may provide such service, but we should not build up the expectations that this is ind eed an ambulance service because it is not. It is air patient 2201

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 transportation, but it's not an ambulance, there's a big dif ference. There's a big dif ference in cost, Mr. Chairman. Now that may be desirable to do, but that's going to be up to another deparment to make that decision. MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. In response to the Min ister, can assure him that we in the North are not looking for merely added convenience. In fact, we're more used to inconvenience than we are conv enience when it come s to transportation and services. - (I nterjection) - Well, the member says not in Thompson.

I'd like to compare the access we have to the rest of the province; the costs we face and some of the other difficulties we face with his area. MR. D. ORCHARD: How about your northern living allowance. Do you want to give it up too? MR. S. ASHTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Pembina mouths off some thing about a northern living allowance. I wish he would point out how many people in Thompson are receiving northern living allowance at the present time. I'll tell him there's very few, if any, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: How many? MR. S. ASHTON: Very few.

But as I was sa ying, under stand the point that the Min ister made about that aircraft. That aircr aft is technically an executive jet and it is used for the dual purpose of transporting patients and also for executive jet purposes. I realize we're stuck with it. I realize that the investment has been and it is understandable that it is difficult to obtain a comparable ai rcraft which can be used for both purposes. The basic point that I am making, Mr. Chairman, is that my constituents are a little concerned about some of the reports coming from the nurses.

I accept the Min ist er's point tha t perhaps th ere is some misund erstan ding about the role of the aircraft. I think, though, that the major concern would be in terms of placing of that ai rcraft in Thompson; I would hope it would be fully researched. If it can be shown to us in the North that we can be served just as equally from the airc raft being placed in Winnipeg, and if that can be done at a cheaper cost, we'll accept that. The major concern though is that we do receive that service regardless. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to get into a debate on the Air Ambula nce Service, especially not with such a learned person as the ML A for Thompson, but I happen to have been involved with the department when the MU-2 crashed - well, heavy landing and was damaged and we spent so much time trying to decide what airc raft to buy that the MLA for Churchill was quite critical of us for delaying the replacement of the MU-2, the air evacuation plane.

The MU-2 was put into patient transportation; it was not designed for that, but the MU-2 was bought because it was a high wing configuration and could land on gravel strips in Northern Manitoba. Now we could have bought one other ai rcraft which had a wide cargo door, which could have made it suitable with that optional cargo door to get stretchers in and out easier, but it was a low wing configuration plane. It couldn't land on gravel strips, period, and it required about a 3,800 foot strip, if I remember my figures correctly, and most of the gravel strips that we use in Northern Manitoba are 3,000 foot.

The Citation is capable of going into those strips as long as the strips aren't wet and soft in spring breakup time. It can land on a gravel strip of 3,000 feet and take off on one engine. It's rated for 3,000 foot strips, and when I went through a selection of planes that were dual-purp ose planes, the one that shone out every single time with the capabilities of providing high speed, high altitude, patient transportation, that Citation came out.

I think it has a top ceiling of 42,000 feet, I believe, which would get it over any thun derstorm that has ever devel oped in Ma ni toba, so that the patient transportation is direct and fast. It has the range from Churchill to Winnipeg, which most other aircra ft did not have and it had the capability of landing on 3,000 foot gravel strips. There was a lot of very serious thought went into the selection of that plane, a lot of work by the Air Division to come up with a numb er of selections from which we could chose a replacement airc raft for the MU-2.

There was a concern about getting another MU- 2 because, quite frankly, there was a reluctance to fly in the MU-2 because of some of the mechanical problems with the engine. That decision was not taken lightly to replace the MU-2 with the Citation. When we did it, we knew full well that we were not buying an air ambulance, because I looked at air ambu lances. You can buy a specific air ambulance that's got everything in it from resusciation to, I think it's called fibril lators, for heart attack patients.

You can go the whole ball of wax and you can have the most first­ class air ambulance that you've ever se en, but there isn't a provincial jurisdiction in Canada that owns one. You know, when I took a look at the financing of such an operation in Manitoba, as the current Min ister and the current Min ister of Health will be taking a look at it, you have to come to some decisions, and the point that the Min ister made is a very valid one.

The service that we offer out of Northern Manitoba with that aircra ft now that can travel at 400 miles per hour puts a heart attack patient in Thompson closer to the intensiv e care centre in either St. Boni face or the Health Scienc es Centre than what one of my constituents has living 85 miles or 100 miles away from Winnipeg. I would suggest that more people are going to die on the road to a Winnipeg intensiv e care unit from rural Manitoba than necessarily will die the same way from Northern Manitoba.

We've had an unfortunate case like that from Flin Flon, but to my knowledge in the three years that I had anything to do with this, or three-and-a-half years, that's the only person who has died on his way to hospital out of Northern Manitoba. Such isn't the case from southern Manitoba. Everybody in southern Manitoba would like to have a 3,00 0-foot airstrip and access to the air craft we use for medical evacuation. The people in Melita would sure like it. The people in Roblin and Russell would sure like it. The people in Swan River would sure like it but, Mr. Chairman, they don't have it.

That ai rcraft does not pick up people in southern Manitoba. It's not used. That's a northern air patient transportation aircraft. 2202

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 You know, I faced the same kinds of decisions and concerns registered by the nurses in Northern Manitoba when we chose that aircraft. They have very specific intentions in terms of an aircraft. Natural ly, because they have a professional desire, they want the best that's available.

If I was in their position, I would want the best that was avai lable, but from time to time when you have the role of government and the admin istration of the funding of the province, you have to make some decisions that are compromise decisions taking in consideration on the one hand, patient care , and on the other hand, the taxpayer's pocketbook. There are times when, quite frankly, life does have a price. Fortunately today, even with the MU-2, I only know of one patient that has died enroute to Winnipeg from Northern Manitoba.

So I believe the service that is being offered now is at least as good and is better than what was offered when the MU-2 was in the air because, No. 1, the aircra ft is more reliable. It is not down in the hangar being repaired as often as the MU-2 was, and when it's in the air it's moving 12 0 miles an hour faster. It can get a patient to an emergency care quicker than any other ai rcraft we've ever had, and that was the one shining thing that made it stand out above the rest of them.

You know, I know the Min ister is going to wrestle with this location in Thompson, because we did too, and he is going to find that the costs, it would probably be the most ideal situation to have that aircra ft up there, but when you consider moving - I think you have six pilots, or is it four? - four pilots that have to be on standby at all times for that aircraft because you have to fly with two pilots. You have to have two pilots in that plane so that means you've got to run that 24 hours a day, seven days a week, as you have to for emergency evacuation, you've got to have four pilots, possibly two more.

You've got to have a maintenance staff that can look after that aircr aft when it's sitting up there because what's the sense of having your maintenance in Winnip eg and your aircraft in Thompson. If you need to fix some thing, what are you going to do with the airplane? Are you going to fly it down to Winnip eg to fix it? So that means you move about eight of the service staff up to Thompson? There are logistical problems that say you cannot do it and this Min ister is going to be faced with the same kind of logic that the department presented to me because we looked at it.

If we lived in Utopia, we would do those kind of things, but at times you have to make decisions. I made them and this Min ister is going to make them. Mr. Chairman, I have one question to ask of the Min ister. Have you changed the charge-back rates of air division use to the departments? Have you increased the schedule? HON. S. USKIW: I wonder if the member would clarify since what date? Since the last Session? MR. D. ORCHARD: No, no. Did you change it since the change of the government? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, I gather it has. Yes, I believe I signed some documents some months ago to that effect, yes. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So the user rates have gone up? HON. S. USKIW: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oka y, that brings me to the question then, I noti ce your Recov erable from Other Appropriations is identical year to year. Now, does that mean you're going to be utilizing the aircraft less hours? Ha ve you got some tight er gu idel in es on the departmental use of the aircraft, so you're recovering the same amount at higher rates? Or I'm assuming the rates went up, maybe you went and put the rates down. - (I nterjection) - they went up. If the rates went up, then how are you accomplishing the same kind of Recoverable? HON. S.

USKIW: I'm not sure what the member is getting at. We charge a rate and bill other departments for the use. So the other departments should reflect the char ges. We shouldn't have it reflected in our Es tima tes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Absolutely , I fully app reciate that. But last year you had a Recoverable from Other Appropriations which is jus t charged back to other departments. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, I see what you're saying. MR. D. ORCHARD: And it's the same this year? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the member is correct as far as the prin ted Estima tes go, but there were Supple mentary Es tima tes la st year tha t had an additional amount reflecting the new rates. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oka y. So then do I understand that in the Sup ple mentary Es ti mates - does the $2,375,0 00 in the left-hand column the same as pri nted last year or has it been added to? I don't beli eve it's been added to, Mr. Chairman, from last year's Estimates book. HON. S. USKIW: The adjustment figure, as I understand it, was $600,000 in the Suppl ementary Supp ly. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So that meant the Recoverable last year was $1, 775,000.00? HON. S. USKIW: I would imagine so. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)-pa ss; 5.(b)-pa ss; 5.(c)-pa ss. Resolution 100: RESOL VED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,640, 100 for Highw ays and Transportation for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1984-p ass. 6.(a )( 1) , Motor Vehicle Branch. MR. D. ORCHARD: What about 5? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm calling 6.(a )( 1) , Motor Vehicle Branch, Ma nagement Services: Salaries. 2203

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: I wish you'd keep members across the table here in order because they are distracting me. You almo st slipped that one by me here. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm ignoring that one. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman. Now let me just find my staffing com plements here. Is your staffing requirments in Motor Vehicle Branch the same or are you up? You mentioned a transfer of two from the Bridge Department. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the increase in this area represents a transfer of five staff years from driver licensing, and reflects the salary increase on the 27th pay period. MR. D. ORCHARD: Ma nagement Services ha ve received five SMYs from Driver Licensing? HON. S. USKIW: I'm sorry, I wonder if the member would repeat that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Did I under stand the Min ister to say that Management Services has received five SMYs from Driver Licensing, Item (

b) under this appropriation? HON. s. USKIW: Yes. In total though the branch is down two SMYs which is one vehicle inspection unit taken out of service. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's on the, at random, call for inspection. You've got one less crew on the road doing that then? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: What was the reason for pulling those people off that safety inspection? HON. S. USKIW: Strictly a budget cut, Mr. Chairman. An expenditure cutback. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The Minis ter is bringing in safety measures in the seat belt legislation, helmet legislation, and th e chil d rest raint systems and he's saying according to - we haven't heard the Min ister introduce the bill, and I look forward to when he does - but we've heard his leader the First Mini ster ind icate that this seat belt legislation, the child restraint systems and helmet legislation was necessary as a safety measure which was designed to reduce costs in the medical system - this was one of his major thrusts in replying to questions in question period. Now I find it rather odd, Mr.

Chairman, that we are going to force Manitobans to wear seat belts, helme ts and use child restraint systems at the same time that we're reducing a very effective method of keeping unsafe vehicles off the road. Now, if this government is talking about safety measures as a method of saving taxpayer dollars in the health system, I find it to be quite a dichotomy they've got going for us here.

I know that whoever on the other side is tallying up this request for extra expen ditur es so they can present us with a bill at the end of the Session - I don't know who it is and I hope they're here tonight - because the reduction in vehicle inspections is not going to contribute to safety on Manitoba highways.

That program - and we'll get into some questions on some other ones that were brought in over the last several years - was designed to give some assurance that vehicles were on the road in a reasonably safe operating condition and certainly I'll admit it was only a random call-up of people, but to have that reduced - I think there was only three crews on that to start with - and to pull one crew off? You've reduced the service by a full one-third.

You know, I'm a little bewildered as to whether this government is truly serious about their safety measures, when on the one hand they'll legislate seat belts, helmets; and on the other hand, they're pulling off a crew for a rest raint measure to inspect fewer vehicles for safety defects of vehicles that are on the road and licenced. Now, I think even to my honourable friend, the MLA for Dauphin, that does not make sense.

He's going to be stan ding up in the House and voting against the will of the majority of his constituents for seat belts and motorcycle hel mets, and at the same time, he's supporting a reduction in the service of the Motor Vehicle Branch of inspecting safe vehicles; and I remind my honourable friend, the MLA for Dauphin, that if those vehicles did not pass the safety inspection, they had, I believe, seven days to correct the defect and if they didn't correct it, they could be pulle d off the road.

No w, that's a positive safety measure th at this government is taking away and at the same time, they're now bringing in helmet and seat belt legislation. Now, I know the Min ister in his reasonable way will explain this so it all makes sense to us, and I'm going to give him the opportunity to explain to us how they can be bringing in seat belt legisla tion, helme t legislation; at the same time, they're reducing inspection of vehicles for safety defects that make vehicles on the highway safer to drive.

When vehicles on the highways are safer to drive, there's fewer accidents, and when there's fewer accidents, there's fewer injuries and expense to the health care system. Those two measures do not meld together as a government that is serious about safety. I know the Min ister is going to have an explanation for me and I would like to hear it. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the member makes a valid point. There's no doubt that there will be less inspection of motor vehicles because of the removal of one inspection unit from the system, so we're not going to deny that.

It does not follow that that action in itself contradicts the safety legislation as the member alle ges, because what we're doing on the one hand, while it will reduce the number of spot checks, if you like, and no doubt will contribute somewhat to less safe highw ay systems, the other has to be a much more major offset, because (

a) it is a compulsory compliance system; (

b) there's a penalty

section that is attached to it, which means there's going to be more universal application of those safety measures and it costs no money to legislate - figuratively speaking. So it's an efficiency measure that will reduce in more safety on 2204

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 the highway, notwithstanding that there will be some minor reduction in this area. Now the member makes the point that we should not reduce; we should keep adding. That's a fair comment. I could make that argument too, but we don't have any money this year, Mr. Chairman. We have to find the money somewhere and it's as plain and simple as that. We have reduced this activity by one unit and we are sacrificing a bit, yes, in order to maintain our spending within our zero growth guidelines, which we have had to do. So that is the nuts and bolts of that decision, Mr. Chairman. MR. D.

ORCHARD: How many inspection units are on the road? HON. S. USKIW: We had four and we will now have three, a one-quarter cut. MR. D. ORCHARD: So you've got a 25 percent cut in safety inspections and your offset is compulsory seat belts and helmet legislation.

You know, we got accused of acute protacted restraint during our term of government at the time when we, I believe we added a safety inspection unit during our term of acute protracted restraint, and here we have this government that is the end-all and the be-all of caring for people an:l they're proposing mandatory legislation that the majority of Manitobans do not want to see, and at the same time, they're pulling off a safety inspection unit. Now I really think - I don't know what makes these people across the floor of the House think.

You know, I just cannot believe this, and when you tie this in - and I don't want to get into the construction budget just yet, the Construction and Maintenance Budget - but good heavens, we have got a government that is pulling 25 percent of the inspection capacity out of the department, which is going to put unsafe vehicles off the road. At the same time that they're making that 25 percent cutback, we've got them reducing funding on reconstruction of highways, and I believe that when we do a serious analysis of the cost under Maintenance, we're going to find that Maintenance is going to be down.

Now, potholes and improperly mai ntained and reconstructed roads are more dangerous to drive on than well-maint ained reconstructed roads. So here we have two areas directly impinging on the safety of the driving public, forced upon Manitobans by the repriorization, I believe, is the buzz word that the NDP are using - repriorization of funding.

They're pulling two safety measures, one of them major in terms of construction and maintenance; the other one not as evident, but pulling 25 percent of the vehicle inspection capacity to check for unsafe vehicles, and then they're solving all the problems by bringing in mandatory seat belts and helmets that the majority in the MLA for Dauphin's constituency do not want to see. If he was allowed to have a free vote in the House, the MLA for Dauphin, if he followed his constituents' wish, would vote against that legislation. So would the MLA for Ste.

Rose vote against it if he followed the will of the majority of the people, which I might add that both the MLA for Ste. Rose and the MLA for Dauphin were calling for all during the Crow hearings. They said to every farmer, how can the Federal Government change the Crow rate without consensus, and yet they're going to stand up and vote against the will of the majority in their constituencies on seat belts and helmets, and they're calling it a safety measure and they're bringing it in because this safety measure, as the Minister says, is a freebie. lt doesn't cost anything.

They stand up, all 32 or 33 strong, and they vote as a block with the whips on, to force Manitobans in seat belts and helmets, call it a safety measure, and then cut back 25 percent of the inspection staff of vehicles on the highway . lt's incredible. lt's incredible. You know, normally you see a policy direction in the government, but here we see policy confusion in this government. There is no concerted attack on safety by this government. There's reductions; there's protracted restraint in the safety inspection that this government is offering.

We. the government that cut back, according to the NDP during our four years, cut back everything, added one inspection crew and that's the one you're cutting back right now under repriorization. I think that this whole direction of safety, this issue of safety that we are having the NO Party foist down the throats of Manitobans is a farce. lt's a farce! On the one hand you say we're bringing in seat belts and helmets for safety measures, and on the other hand you're cutting back a real safety measure that takes unsafe vehicles off the road. I find that incredi ble.

I find that really incredible and if I could see a concerted policy direction of this government, I might agree with some of the things they're doing. You people are in chaos; you're in absolute chaos over there. The problem is that Manitobans are the ones that are going to suffer. Manitobans are the ones that are-suffering from this government in chaos. MR. R. DOERN: And we're suffering from the speech right now. MR. D. ORCHARD: The MLA for Elmwood makes his contribution, and I respect the MLA for Elmwood.

After all, if he hadn't have been so successful in the leadership campaign, we might have had a different leader and maybe we would have had some direction in this New Democratic Party , and maybe we wouldn't have the chaotic, knee-jerk, stumbling policy development of this government. I can't believe it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The member will please stay on the topic. MR. D. ORCHARD: What is the topic? Mr.

Chairman, the topic that we are talking about right now is the Motor Vehicle Branch, which is Management Services, and within the Management Services of the Motor Vehicle Branch is the responsibility for the administration of safety on the roads and highways of Manitoba and, if what I have been saying isn't on the topic, Mr.

Chairman, then you better find out - no, I can't say that - members of the committee better find out what the topic is, because here we are, cutting back on safety funding through the Motor Vehicles Branch in the drive to save money - and I might tell you, we're doing this at a time when the government's 2205

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 overall spending budg et has gone up by 19 percent, except this Minis ter with this department adminis tering for the safety of the people, the driving public of Manitoba, has to bear the brunt of cutbacks. MR. A. DRIEDGER: It shows your priority in rural areas. MR. D. ORCHARD: These people are in chaos. That is the only word you can say, they are in policy chaos. Mr. Chairman, I don't think I have anything more to add on that. I think it's incredible. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. appreciate the opportunity to have a few comments in here, and I want to compliment my colleague who has illustrated some of the fallacy of this government's dir ection that they are taking. I would like to just touch on the safety aspect as well to some degree, where we are being faced with a legislation that is coming forward in terms of compu lsory seat belt legislation and helmet legislation and in terms of protecting lives for the people of Manitoba, and I think everybody would agree to some degree.

I would just like to draw the Minister's attention to a few years ago when I brought in a Private Members' Bill raising the drinking age from 18 to 19. At that time, I had all the background information in terms of the lives it would save and the accidents that it would prevent, in terms of just taking the high school group, the young kids, raising the drinking age by one year. There was a lot of debate on that. It had taken place a few years - the bill was intr oduced once before, was defeated and it was very narrowly defeated . The majority of the NOP members opposed that legislation at that time.

That dealt with safety and saving lives, and here we have compulsory seat belt legislation. The mechanism for saving lives is there. Those that want to use a seat belt or helmets, they can do it; there is no law against that. Now we're making it compu lsory, but at that time the NOP members voted against raising the drinking age. Statistics from across North America prove that it would save many lives, save many accidents. If this Mini ster was concerned about the safety aspect of it, why did he not then support that legislation at that time? It was lost by two votes the last time I proposed it.

It was by two votes. It was safety at that time. Then a different aspect took place. Now this Min ister is going to put it on the line and make it compu lsory. I'm very concerned about that, about the hypocrisy to some degree in terms of how do we rate safety. The other concerns I have I'll raise later with the hypocrisy of this government in terms of their priorities about road construction, etc. We'll get on to that a little later, but I just wanted to add this aspect of it in conjunction with what the Member for Pembina already raised, how this government views safety.

They are going to im pose on the people of Manitoba - and we'll have a chance to debate that in the House once the bill comes in, but these are some of the points that illustrate that they're not consistent in terms of what they claim are their priorities. The other thing I would like to raise while we are on the subject of Motor Vehicle Branch is the aspect of licensing, the driver licensing in the rural areas. I want to raise that concern to the Min ister. We have the rural areas, pla ces like St.

Pierre, Steinbach, Vita, where in the rural areas people can go and app ly, take their driver's test, motorcycle test and what have you. We're concerned about costs and what have you, but there are many people that go out there and want to take their driver's test. I know that, in a place like St. Pierre, for example, kids that want to take their driver's test come there at 6:00 in the morning.

By 8:00, there is alr eady a lineup so long that anybody coming after 8:00 - and the insp ectors basically arriv e around 10:00 - there is such a fantastic line-up and it's taken some of the kids six and seven trips before they finally get on, unle ss they are one of those tenacious ones. I'm talking of 16 -year old kids, they get very upset because, to them, it is the biggest thing in their life, getting a driver's licence. When they get to the age of 15, they're already starting to practise and they are looking very keenly to the time when they finally can get their driver's.

They they have to spend months, literally months, trying to get a chance to have a test. I want to raise that with the Minis ter, if there is some possible way to adjust this to some degree, because our youngsters start off with a negative attitude towards government and towards the system, because of the way they are being handled, to some degree, and the at titude of the in spectors - they're always under pressure and understandably so .

They're a little snippy with our younger people and I think it is a matter of, you know, if there's some way to maybe change the system to some degree so we teach the kids educational process. They come into the system, very often, very negative al ready, because they have tried for two or three months to try and get on to get a test. Invaria bly, many of them flunk, and I don't dis agree with that because many of them come in a little cocky at the time, but it is degrading to many of them by the time they get through with this system.

I am wondering if there is some way that - I have no suggestion to make, but I'm sure that the department can look at some way of making it a little easier for people to get on and have their test. Because you cannot make appointments un less you go through a driver education system and they sort of have priori ty. The average ind ividual has a difficult time to get on there, and I just wanted to raise that with the Minis ter and ask whether he has any comment on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Minis ter wish to make any comment? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The member raises a question with respect to the processing of vehicle tes ting, especially of the beginners. I don't know whether he can recal l, but some years ago we had a different system. It was a system by appointment only, and the problem with that system was that 30 percent of our staff time was wasted because people failed to show up for their appointments. So we converted to the first come, first served sys tem, which now means that, if you didn't show up first, then you have to wait in line. That is the most efficient way from the standpoint of dolla rs that the province mus t put out for these 2206

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 programs so it's cost effective, but there is no doubt about it that there are lineups from time to time. The onus is ind eed on the individual at this point in time to be there whenever the system is ready to give them their test. I wouldn't want us to go back to the other sys tem. Whether or not we can enrich the program to put more people through is some thing for the future because we don't have the cash with which to do that at this point in time. So we have to live with that for the moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Well, I can apprecia te the problem of the appointment aspect of it, but under the first­ come firs t-serve basis there are people out there lined up from 6 o'clock in the morning - and I can bring him examples if he wants and I'm sure he realizes that - where they want to get on so bad that they come there. Certain ly, if that kind of pressure is on there then maybe it could be justified in terms of expanding that program in some of these rural points, because there are not that many avai lable, for example, in the southeast area. I think we've got Steinbach basically , we have St.

Pierre and we have Vita. That covers a gigantic area in terms of population. Then I would encourage the Min ister to maybe expand that program to some degree because I've had many complaints and I'm sure the Minister's had many complaints and it creates a lot of frustration. I want to encourage the possibility of expanding that kind of a program in some of the south east areas. Maybe this isn't a problem that's general across the province, but it certainly is in my area there and it creates a lot of hard feelings.

Well, the attitude of kids when they go time after time and they don't get on, they start getting very negative so I think that's not the right way to go and I would hope that the Mini ster will take that under consideration. I realize the cost factor, but when there are that many people that want to come, certainly there must be some provisions that could be made for that. HON. S. USKIW: Well, I want to again mention to the Member for Emerson that when we had the appointment system we had a six-week waiting period.

We are putting many more students through now under this system than we were at that time, per day, per week, per month, although it may appear to be inconvenient from time to time, but we are putting much more through. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The question that I have, in certain areas where there is tremendous pressure on there, would the Min ister consider expanding the program to some degree so that we do not have that big backlog?

Certainly, if there are that many people that are wanting to get on the program and to get their drivers, with that kind of pressure there must be some way to expand this without creating too much additional cost to the department. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The operation of the branch is such that they do trans fer people from one

section to another in order to respond to heavier demand factors from time to time, so we are flexible in that area. In the end, I have to tell the member that we have fixed the dollars for this year and we must work within that framework. I have to admit that perhaps maybe we have been overly influenced by the rhetoric from the Conservative side of the House with respect to the overall size of the deficit. Ma ybe we have been overinfluenc ed by that, but we do have to live with the num bers that we have before us. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I bel ieve the Min ister doesn't have to worry about the rhetoric of the deficit when it comes to his department because he hasn't fared so well. If you look at what's happened with his department, he's sort of been the scapegoat on the whole thing and I mus t say that, I for one, am not happy with that because I think this is one the departments that should have been beefed up. I think it's a good area to create jobs and we've been through that before and I won't deal with it.

One of the few areas of safety that I want to touch on, and I just want to briefly suggest to the Min ister, it may be a solution to the problem with the driver testing in rural areas. It's a problem, I believe, with every member that does not have a permanent crew stationed in his area. I know I have several driver testers that come out, I bel ieve, twice a week to Steinbach. They do a good job and I'm not complaining about their work, but they do have the problem and they did have the problem when you talk about appointments, that people didn't show up.

I would suggest to the Min ister that you've got 30 percent of the people who don't show up and 70 percent do. What we're really doing is penalizing those 70 percent because of the minorities and I would suggest to the Min ister - and I don't know if it'll work I haven't bounced it off anybody else - but I wonder if it might not be possible to take a $1 0 or a $1 5 deposit when a person does come for their driver's licence. This would mean that if that person doesn 't show up, he or she then forfeits the money and that does then not inconvience the 70 percent.

We have a problem here and in so many things in society, you have a few people who spoil it for everybody else and that's what we see happening here. I say to the Min ister in all honesty and in all sincerity that the problem that was raised by the Member for Emerson is a real problem in my constituency too. You have a lot of young drivers who are going to school, are driven there by their parents, have to wait around two or three hours, blame the insp ectors and blame this particular department for the problems.

So I wonder if there isn't a possibility of maybe getting sort of a deposit on an appointment which means that person has to forfeit those $1 5 if he or she doesn't happen to show up and I think that maybe that might be a way to solve the problem. But I say to the Min ister that it is a real problem in my area. I would say I would have an easy solution maybe for the particular problem.

I would be very happy if the Minis ter would decide to station one or two people full time in the Steinbach and surrounding area which would deal with these particular driver training things, but he says he is constrained by certain monetary policies of this government, fine. But I wonder if he 2207

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 would give some consideration to getting some kind of a system in place where people who don't show up for their appointment don't really put the other people, the 70 percent, into the same category and I would ask him to give that some consideration. I have another problem which has been raised to me by many people in the auto mobile busine ss, by consumers and the dealer body alike and that problem stems from the practice of Autopac selling Autopac write-offs to anybody who is the high est bidder . What is happening at present, Mr. Chairman, is that people are buying these cars.

An average ind ividual who has no body shop background, has very little mechanical background, can buy an Autopac write-off, take it home, put it in his garage and in the part time go ahead and fix that particular unit. He or she then can advertise that car in the local paper, sell it privately and that particular unit never has to have a safe motor vehicle inspection. This means that a car, and I've seen a few because I'm in the business, and I guess memb ers opposite could accuse me of having a vested in terest in this, but, Mr.

Chairman, I have to say to you, I have seen people that have bought cars privately at night and then in the light of day the next day found out what they bought with frames that were bent, bodies that were improperly repaired and they have never had to pass through an inspection process or through a safety certificate. I wonder if the Min ister or his department has done any research or have they been in contact with MPIC to ensure that these vehicles that are sold at the public auction by Autopac, in some way or another along the line before they get back on the road, receive a safety inspection.

I would imagine that the Motor Vehicle Branch has an idea when those units are taken off the road in conjunction with MPIC, and it would be fairly easy just to have a simple inspection on those units to make sure when they get back on the road that they are in roadworthy condition. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member is quit e right. There is a problem, has been a problem for some years and we are dealing with it.

Hopefully within a very short period of time we will be able to elabor ate more fully how we are going to deal with it but there is a program under way, or being developed, which will solve that problem but we're not ready to announce it at this stage. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I appr eciate the Min ister's remarks and maybe I can give him a few suggestions.

Autopac, because it is very often in their best interest to write off a unit even though it isn't damaged as severely as one would initially beli eve that a write off unit should be but because of the economics of repairing it will rather write it off than repair it. It is not my intention here tonight to say that those cars should be taken off the road and shouldn't be repaired because there are a lot of good people, a lot of good body shops that buy these units and do repair them.

However, I want to say to the Mini ster that it would be very simple in their computer over at 1300 Portage Avenue, or the Autopac computer to red-flag these particular units, and make sure that before they get registered, or re-registered that there is some safety certificate done, or some safety certificate taken with regards to them and I would sugge st to the Min ister that it's a pretty simple process. I'm sure Autopac has that within their computer capabilities to highlight that and make sure that those units are certified safe before they are registered.

The other concern, of course, which the Manitoba Motor Dealers Association has been pressing not only this government but the previous admin istration before that, some seven, eight years ago there was

an act passed in the Legislature deal ing with the safety certi ficates which are issued by dealers for used automobiles that they sell on their lots. However, the Min ister will appreciate that over half of the used cars sold in this province are sold privately and are never inspected. We have heard tonight that the Min ister is cutting down on the government inspection and one of the simp lest ways to ensure that the majority of cars that are insp ected , at least at the time of sale, is to ensure that an individual on a private sale before registering that unit, should have a safe motor vehicle stick er.

In other words, tha t somebody with a mechanical backgrou nd, or somebody in authority, has to make sure that this particular unit has been checked as far as the safety aspects are concerned. We are going to be faced with a bill dealing with seat belt legislation, with helmet legislation, child rest raint - it's before us right now - but one of the bigge st areas that we're having trouble with is the car that comes onto the road without ever having a safety certificate. I say to the Mini ste,r that becomes a real problem.

I would like to just ill ustrate one example which happened not too long ago to my car dealersh ip. I had a young gentleman come in, buy a $1 00 car. We issued an uns afe motor vehicle certificate which means that he cannot go and register it. They walked outside, wrote out a little piece of paper, he sold it to his brother, and he walked down the street and registered it. Which means that from private, when I sell it as a dealer I have to issue a certificate.

I issued an uns afe certificate but they can turn around the same day because it's a private sale, sell it to their friend, or to their brother and go and register that particular car. I have to tell the Min ister that a dealer is powerless in dealing with it and the government is right now powerless in dealing with it. So as a result you can have a lot of old clunkers on the road which never have to have a safety certificate. We've just heard today, we're getting one of the safety units being pulled off the road.

If you're really worried about safety, really worried about safety there is a simple system of regulating that. Ontario has done it, I belie ve Saskatche wan has done it now, and there is a system. Manitoba, I realize over the last number of years has had the legislation on their books, jus t haven 't proclaimed it and I would urge the Minis ter if he's really concerned about safety that is one of the acts of the Legislature that should be proclaimed and moved ahead with. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Ho no ur able Memb er for Elmwood . MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to speak too long on this question of seat belts and motorcycle 2208

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 helmets but I want to make a couple of references there. I want to say also to the Min ister that any funds that he needs for any program of safety or public education, he can get. All he has to do is go back. - (I nterjection) - Well I'm telling you. I believe all he has to do is go back to Cabinet or caucus and he'll get all the backing that is necessar y. No, it's never too late. If there's a shortage of funds, and if there's been a program to keep expenditures down then I think that ... - (I nterjection) - Mr. Chairman, you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth.

If you're concerned about safety, and I am, and there's a shortage of funds then I think that money should be allocated, and I think that money should be obtained through Sup plementary Estima tes and the Minis ter should be able to bring these programs about. Mr. Chairman, this whole question of safety to me is a case of public education. We now have good legislation introdu ced and I think a lot of this is just a case of bringing forward the information to the public. That's what concerns me about the opposition.

They are simply striking a position there for freedom and when it comes to the statistics and the studies and the facts, they're ignoring them and saying that this doesn't really matter because a person has a right to choose whether or not he should fly out of his car and into the windshield, or fly out of his car and roll around on the highway, or fly down the highw ay and land on his head. Mr. Chairman, I think that's a phony issue. I think the issue is a matter of life and death. It is not a case of the right to decide. It's a matter of life and dea th.

The other thing I would point out to the members opposite is, that as they well know there are four provinces that now have this legislation in, in terms of seat belts, Cons ervative Ontario, Conservative Saskatchewan, PQ Quebec, and Socred B.C. Now I admit th at wi thin a week that'll be another New Democratic pr ovince. But the fact is tha t th ose governments all have that kind of legislation so it's not a case of freedom. Neither is it on motorcycle helmets where all governments except ours have this type of compulsory legislation in place and seven of those governme nts, Mr.

Chairman, are Conservativ e Governments. So I'm simply saying to the Min ister that if he has a requirement - (I nterjection) - Sure, if he has a req uir ement, if he req uires more funds for safety inspections, or public education, or driver education I think that he can demand this money and I think he will succeed. I think if he had any problems at any time, in any of those areas, that he will now no longer have that kind of a problem.

Now, the Member for Emerson and the Member for Pembina, I think, they made some big statements about how they know that people in certain ridings are opposed to safety legislation. Well, where is their proof? I mean, what is this, a matter of conjecture? I mean, this is an NOP riding, NOP MLAs are excepting a position that is not held within the riding? You know, where's the evidence? Where is the proof? I mean, bald statement alone doesn't prove anything. I think all that's happening is, of course, that some members of the opposition are trying to whip up the public.

I think that they're simply seizing this as a possible issue and - (I nterjection) - Well, I would like the Member for Emerson - it would be inte res ting, Mr. Chairman, it would be very interesting to know whether the Member for Emerson has poled his riding and whether he could give us some statistics about - (I nterjection) - Well, the point is, Mr. Chairman, it would be very interesting indeed to know whether the member could produce any evidence about what percentages of people in his riding are for and against this type of legislation. The other thing I simply say to the Member for Emerson.

He's all excited about his bill, his drinking bill. He's going to raise the drinking age to 19 and reduce the number of accidents . A MEMBER: And deaths. MR. R. DOERN: . . . and deaths. Well, Mr. Chairman, if that were true, I would vote for that legislation. If it were true, I would support it on the grounds of safety, but the fact is, it isn't true. And the fact is, would the honourable member bring in a bill to raise the drinking age to 21 because there'd be even a further reduction in accidents, or a further reductions in deaths?

And as it was said - it was said in this House by the former Member for Fort Rouge, who's now the Minis ter of Citizenship and Immi gration, Lloyd Axworthy. He made the point that on that logic, if you raised the drinking age to 65, then nobody would drink and there wouldn't be any accidents at all. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The statistics prove that between 18 and 19 with the drinking age being what it is, that's where the accidents are happening and the deaths are happening. The facts are there. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I find that hard to believe.

The member argues that between that age, when a person turns mature at 18 and the time he becomes 19, that that's where the greatest numb er of accidents occur and the greatest num ber of deaths occur . I wonder what happens to people in tha t particular year? So the only thing I would say to the Minis ter, is that if he requir es more funding, if he has been forced to make certain hard decisions, or have been forced to tighten his belt in general, than I think that he can go back with the support, not only of his colleagues, but also of the opposition. The opposition, I think, will back him to a man.

There won't be one peep out of the opposition about a supple mentary bill to bring in more funding to the Min ister of Hig hways, to provide more hig hway inspections, to provide more safety education, to provide more signs on the highway to encourage people to buckle up and so on. Mr. Chairman, the other thing I'd like to mention to the Min ister and it's a point that I've raised several times with him, and here again, I think he needs more money for safety programs, and that's in regard to the person on the bicycle.

There are tho usands and thousands of people riding bikes in this province and they're riding them in very dangerous conditions, name ly, they don't have lights. They don't have lights on their bikes and they ride them at night. We have several hundr ed accidents a year. I don't know how many deaths we have a year, Mr. Chairman, but I do know, as a person who drives a vehicle in the City of 2209

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 Winnipeg, I see a lot of people at night who are risking their very lives and I simply say to the Min ister, he needs money to expand his program. He has a program of safety for children in elementary schools and I say that he needs money, as well, for funding for adults and for juveniles.

Every summer I have the experience - and I'm sure other members around this table do - of almo st wiping out a bicyclist during the summer months, where all of a sudden you realize that there's somebody on the street just in front of you, cutting or on the same side, that you can't see, no reflectors on their bik es, wearing dark clothing, no lights, and so on. And the point is this, Mr. Chairman, it's the law. I'm not talking about a new la w. I'm ta lking about the enforcement of legislation which has been on the books for a long time. So, Mr.

Chairman, I say I'm glad that if, in fact, the opposition, if the Member for Pembina has raised the point that there's a shortage of funds in this area, then I say that he has done us a service. He has point ed out to an area where the government maybe through an overs ight, has not alloca ted sufficient funding and I think that's to his credit. I simply say that if that in fact is a weakness of the safety program, than that has to be remedied at once. But I say, in general, to the members opposite that they are closing their eyes and closing their minds to the issue of safety.

You know there are none so blind as will not see, and I find it really quite amazing that the Conservative Party, to a man - (I nterjection) - I'm talking about seat belt legislation and I'm talking about hel met legislation - that they can be unanimous in their opposition to good legislation, Mr. Chairman. I must say that I also find it a peculiar alliance of the thousand bikers that came to this Legislature and the Cons ervative Party. That is strange bedfello ws. A MEMBER: That's a new majority we're forging. We're reaching out to the people. MR. R. DOERN: That's true. Mr.

Chairman, it's an unholy alliance and a very strange combination of people. - (I nterjection) - Well, if the Member for Lakeside thinks that's the new majority ... MR. CHAIRMAN: If the recording system is to record the mem ber, we'd better keep ourselves in shape. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, if, in fact that's the new alliance, then I think it's a good one, because it's two groups representing a particular segment of society and I think that augurs well for the future of the New Democratic Party.

That leaves the entire centre of our society to sup port this particular government. - (Interjection) - I'm going to stay away from that remark because I remember Lloyd Henderson used that remark in his leadership campaign, Mr. Chairman. In fact, he is the one who said that. He, in fact, made that remark as you will recall. I say to the Member for Lakeside that he was going to take the Liberal Party down the centre of the road, the way a Hutterite drives a truck. But the CBC followed that one up. Ted Weatherhead came out ... No, I'm quoting what Lloyd Henderson said and what the Member for Lakeside said.

The CBC made a worse comment, I have to tell you; they fouled that up. Ted Weatherhead got on there, in commenting on the Liberal Leade rship said, "He's going to take the Liberal Party . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Please stay on the topic. The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to tell you what ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. l. HYDE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, yes, I take exception on what the Member for Elmwood has just commented on, the past Mayor of Portage la Prairie.

He served the area very well and today is not a well man, but he is strong in the communi ty even today. I take exception to what the Member for Elmwood has just stated about my past Mayor of Portage la Prairie. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I didn't know you could criticize a person by quoting the ir words verbat im. I simply said what Lloyd Hende rson said during the Leade rship Campaign . . . A MEMBER: No, no you were slandering him. MR. R. DOERN: I see. Well . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I will try to compliment the former Mayor of Portage by quoting something he didn't say so I can compliment him. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I'll let that one go because I was going to tell you what the CBC said, but it's a little too hot to repeat. But, I will say, Mr.

Chairman, that I will go back to the original point that if, in fact, there are funds required for the Min ister to expand his Public Education Program in regard to cars, trucks, bicycles, etc., and if the Minis ter needs more money for vehicle inspections, if he needs any money for any imp rovement or enrichment of safety in this program, he can certainly count on a new approach and backing from his colleagues and in some cases, at least, the opposition will back him as well, at least, on the one segment of driver vehicle testing and inspection. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I'm amazed at what I hear tonight from the Ho nour able Me mb er for Elmwood. It is not Wedne sday - he writes his second book on Wednesday - Cabinet Days? - he's got away from his second edition and he comes here tonight and tells us that this Min ister of Highways doesn't have sufficient funds to carry on with his program for the next year and inviting us and this committee to vote more money. It's the most un believable thing I've ever heard all the years I've been in the Legislature. 2210

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 I know the Honourable Member for Elmwood has a problem. He waded into the private and parochial school thing the other night and got himself in Dutch with the Min ister of Education and here, today, he's mucked into the Mini ster of Hig hways . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Under Rule 64(2), speeches in the Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. The Member for Roblin- Rus sel l. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, am I out of order? MR. CHAIRMAN: No. It's just a friendly remind er. The Member for Roblin-Rus sell has the floor. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I thank you kind ly. I always abide by the rules of the Chairman and you guide me through this because it's going to be difficult. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin- Russell has the floor. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Elmwood now tells us, due to the fact that they forgot about safety in this particular item that we're dealing with in the Hig hway Estima tes tonight, advising us, the committee, to vote more funds to the Mini ster of Hig hways. We can't go to the Cabinet room and he can't either and that's the first problem we've got.

Second ly, I've never in my life in this Legislature he ard a memb er on the government benches asking the opposition to vote more funds for the Mini ster while we're dealing with Estima tes of Supp ly. It's an unprecidented resolution that's coming from the Honourable Member for Elmwood which I've never heard of. To take the Estimates back to Cabinet and ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I cannot hear the member . A MEMBER: You're luc ky. MR. W.

McKENZIE: . . . take the Estima tes back on the im portant item so that he can now get a better view of his seat belt legislatio n which he's been promoting in the Legislature all the years I've been here. Now, he recognizes the problem. Why would any government bring in seat belt legislation when they're cutting back the safety programs in the province? They'd be ludi crous to do it and that's why he's caught in the gri nder, because what we've said for weeks here about the priorities of this government, their lack of understanding of what the people of this province want and how they want it. Mr.

Chairman, I'm just asking the Honourable Mini ster of Highways tonight, very quic kly, if we just pave another 20 miles of the Yellowhead Road, we'll get enough money to more than pay for all the safety programs becaus e of the traffic that's on that route. The traffic on that Yellowhead route and the taxes that you're taking off that route will more than pay for all the safety programs that we need for a whole year in this province.

But the priorities of this government are such - no, we are going to what? - do eight mile s of the Yellowhead, so the rest of it is going to be bumps and potholes and this Mini ster has got a problem. I sympathize with the Min ister, because he is one of the only Minis ters of this government that has come out fair and square and told us before he laid his Estimates on the table, I got a problem, my priorities and what I think should be done to this province, it couldn't get through Cabinet. So we know now the priorities of this government.

We und erstand that highways and the construction of highways is likely last. I am surprised with the Min ister of Government Services and the Min ister of Municipal Affairs, who are rural members, would allow that to happen in this province. In our time, men whom we trusted and the people have trusted to see this go down the drain where they say, well, we're not going to build roads; we're going to have more potholes; we're not going to look after the safety but we're going to bring in seat belts.

I just ask again to the committee and the Member for Elmwood, move the Min ister of Hig hways priori ties up in your Cabinet room about six notches and let him finish the Yellowhead High way and you'll get enough money to look after all your safety programs and there'll be enough money to fix all the potholes, not only in Roblin-Russell, but half across this province, because that is the second main highway across this country and it's got 8.7 miles of hig hway, the second Trans­ Canada High way in this province. Mr.

Chairman, we're going across this province talking about Crow rates and railway transportation, when this government can't get its blinkers off or its rose-coloured glasses off and understand what makes this province tick. Transportation is what makes this province tick. The right to move goods and services across this province and give them a half-decent route and they all come in our province. Lots of trucks today go through the States. They say, what the heck's the use, the prices we're charging for gas up here. If you go across the border, the gas is a buck cheaper .

Why would you drive through Manitoba transporting goods from east to west? It's an absolute farce. Of course, Mr. Chairman, I sympathize with the Honourable Member for Elmwood. I've known him for a long time. I think there are only five of us left from the old days. We call ours elves the "old five" and I certainly agonize for him and I understand the problems he's got. But the problem is, my friend, to give the honourable member more money, where are you going to get it? You've got to borrow it and on this side of the committee, we're not going to let this government borrow any more money as long as I sit here.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are we at the

section where I could talk about drivers' licences? MR. CHAIRMAN: If we pass (

a) and (b), we'll go there. MRS. C. OLESON: I'm wondering, to the Minis ter, I've had an enquir y from one of my constituents about the merit and demerit system on dr iving li cences. I under stand that the driver's licence shows merits, but does it show the demerit points? 2211

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 HON. S. USKIW: Yes, that is correct. MRS. C. OLESON: It does show them? HON. S. USKIW: It only shows merits. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Mini ster explain why it would not show the demerit points? HON. S. USKIW: The fear in the department apparently has been, and this goes back some years I presume, that that kind of information might prejudice the way in which an enforcement officer may deal with the person who is appr ehended on the highway for whatever reason. So, it's to give neutrality to the enforcement system. MRS. C. OLESON: Well, in that case, Mr.

Minis ter, how does the driver know what demerit points he has at any given time and when his status has changed in that regard? HON. S. USKIW: That information is always available at the Motor Vehicle Branch, Mr. Chairman. It's readily avai lable for anyone who is int erested in pursuing it. MRS. C. OLESON: In that case you mean, each year when the person renews their licence they would have to make an enquiry as to exactly what status they had, for instance, if they'd had demerit points they'd have to enquir e personally as to what status they were at at that given time? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the rule of thumb is that after four demerits there is usually a letter that is sent out to the individual, and then six and eight and so on. So, as they accu mula te, there is more correspondence coming from our friendly Motor Vehicle Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Min ister made an interesting point there where he indica ted that demerits are not contained on the licence because it might prejudice an enforcement officer's issuing a traffic offence. HON. S. USKIW: Attitude, attitude. MR. D. ORCHARD: The attitude, yes.

I find that if you've got the merit points out there and you're zipping along at five miles an hour over the speed limit, that if he sees some merit points, he's liable to say, well, this guy can afford a two-point ticket and issue a ticket for sure. Like if the reason you don't have demerits there, then you should not have the merits either because I think both are prejudicial, could change the attitude of the enforcement officer and if it's valid on one side, I think it's equally valid on the merit side. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I belie ve the member has a point.

I think that if I were to read the licence of the Member for Pembina, which showed merit points MR. D. ORCHARD: Seven or eight of them. HON. S. USKIW: . . . that would give me some impr ession of the Member for Pembina, or if it showed demerits. So I think that's a valid considera tion. A peace officer may think that there is a lot of room and, therefore, maybe we won't give a warning this time; we will actually issue a ticket for an offence committed. That may happen. I don't know that it does.

On the other hand, you weigh that against the sort of support and psychology behind the merit principle to the one that actually enjoys to have the merit applied to him or her. There is a little bit of, I guess you could say, air about having a record like that, and you might want to protect it. So that enha nces one's driving habits, I suppose. I would say that, on balance, it probably is worthwhile having it on. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, the Min ister has brought up another area.

If the value is there in encouraging the man or the woman to continue driving safely because he's got merit points; likewise the reminder of three or two demerits, I think, is going to have a similar effect, saying to the man or the woman, gee whiz, I've got to be careful in my driving habits because one more and my licence could be pulled. I know ttiat's been done for a long while. I didn't realize why, because I had never gotten demerit points in the last few years. I'd better touch wood because I'll sure get one. So all I have seen is merit points.

I didn't realize demerits weren't on the licence, but I think there could be a pretty strong case for pulling both of them off because there are, I think, as many min uses to each case as there are pluses. However, it's not a strong point; the Minis ter will take it under advisement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister wants to make a comment. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the people who have demerit points are advised on a regular basis if they are over four. Therefore , I think that's all the communication that is necessary.

I think there is enough psychology in that alone; a letter advising them of a problem that seems to be brewing as a result of their driving habits. After a period of six demerits, they of course are subject to show-cause hearings - I believe that's correct. Is it six? - Yes, interview at six points and show cause at eight. So there is a fair amount of psychological enforcement through that process. I wouldn't think I would want to change that. I would want to ind icate, though, that we are looking at revising the whole merit-demerit system, reforming it, because there are anomalies within it.

There has been a committee working on that for some time. I'm not sure what stage we're at. We are doing a bit of a pilot project on that very point. Hopeful ly, the results will show a direction that would be the most productive for us to take. But, just to give you an example, a person can receive two demerits, I believe it is, for a broken headlamp. That in itself I belie ve to be wrong, because tha t can happen without the dr iver's knowledge. I could see it, for example, after the driver has been warned and has ignored the warning. I have 2212

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 a problem accepting it if it's before a warning has been issued, things of that nature. I think we have to look at the whole system and, hopeful ly, we will come up with what I would call a bit of fine tuning, which is necessary. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question, and it's pertai ning to the vehicles and trailers operated on our highways where their sand-gravel loads are not sufficiently covered.

Motorists travelling along Route 59 north to many pr ovincial and priv ate recreational beaches and parks have had their vehicles damaged and some had large stones literally shot through their windshields. This is a situation that has been continual, dangerous, and it's been a costly problem for motorists over the past 10 years or more. It's been caused in the main by some irresponsible truckers who have not properly covered their loads of sand and gravel, although most of them are equipped with the tarps. My question is to the Min ister.

Has he considered making an amendment as to have it like it is in Ontario where there would be designa ted roads; to change the Act, in other words, to help the motorists that are heading along these heavily traffic areas to the beaches mainly where the gravel trucks are running? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the law does not require that the loads be covered. It does require that the loads be contained within the box or the container and not above the upper sill, if you like. Now, if the law is violated, of course, they are subject to the penalties under The High way Traffic Act.

Even when a load shifts and causes a problem, they are subject to penalty. Now, it may be a matter of more enforcement. That may be the answer; I don't know. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr . Chairman, I ha ve a constituent who had this happen to and with many of his neighbours that go down to the lake. He's finally really done a lot of research into this particular problem. Although it is not manda tory for the sand-g ravel loads to be covered, nor are any highways designated, it's very difficult, if not im possible, to enforce without a man datory req uir ement.

Evident ly, the pol ice or inspectors have to identify the vehicle by the firm name and the vehicle licence num ber, as well as witness to the fact, and the load which caused the damage was not firmly bound and sufficiently covered, all of this usually while the vehicle is going in the opposite dir ection. So it's almost im possible to get a conviction under this particular Act the way it's stated. I guess the Autopac people have as much problem with it.

In any case, if I may, this particular constituent - and I will pass this page on to the Mini ster or send it over to his office - that he would suggest that the Act be changed; that the Lieutenant- in-Council may make regulations in: (

a) prescr ibing the manner of loading and of covering and securing loads on vehicles or class of vehicles operated on hig hways or classes of highways. (

b) Designating the vehicles or classes of vehicles and the highways or class es of highways to which loaded covering or secu ring provisions are to apply. In other words, not every highway needs to be designated. There's probably many places where there's very little traffic, but on these particular - you know, in the summer the number of cars that are traveling to beaches with families - and it is a very dangerous situation. In many cases, it has put motoris ts and their families in jeopardy. He went on with: (

c) Pres cribing classes of vehicles, highways and loads for the pur poses of (

a) and (

b) on this. Also , it went further to say that there should be a

summary conviction of a fine not less than 100 and not more than 200. But that is the type of thing, I think, tha t the motorists are lookin g for on the heavily trafficked areas where many of these trucks are, and I belie ve it is a danger . I think if the Minis ter did check with Autopac, they would find that this is a problem. HON. S. USKIW: Well, I forsee a problem in that kind of a solution as well, Mr. Chairman. No. 59 High way is one of the most traveled highways on the part of gravel trucks. It is also one of the most traveled highways by the tourist people and the cottage people.

You have an obvious conflict of highway use there, and how would one designa te that highway for one or the other . The practicality of doing tha t is somewhat horrendous, to say the least. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I belie ve that they have done this in Ontario, and I imagine that their highways are probably every bit as heavily traveled, if not a bit more, than ours.

I think that when it comes to the safety of families traveling back and forth, as you say, and tourists, which should take precedence over someone whether they would put the tarp over their truck, which might take five or ten minutes to do, I don't think that probably with a little common .sense really does. I can't see that that is a great problem myself, and · 1 think when safety is involved, that probably should come first. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, this is not a new idea. I recall discussing this very item during the mid '70s.

In fact, I believe that's when the legislation was amended to provide for tarping, but it doesn't work. A tarp does not completely seal a truck box, if you like. It often creates a pr oblem of tunnel wind undern eath the tarp which syphons the gravel out the back end and becomes more of a hazard. So one has to be comple tely airtight in order to avoid that problem. It could be quite an onerous obligation on the part of the industry to operate in that fashion. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Well, I thank the Min ister and I will ... HON. S. USKIW: But we'll take a look at it, Mr. Chairman. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: If you would, I would appreciate it and I will send the information that I have to him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had a related concern in regard to trucking safety, and the 2213

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 Min ister is quite aware of it because I brought it up in the House a couple of months ago. I'd just like to take this opportunity to pass on the concern that was exp ressed to me by a num ber of constituents about problems both with ore trucks and with logging trucks. The situation there has been that there have been a number of cases where logs have fallen off the back of trucks with vehicles only a short distance behind. Fortunately, there's been no accidents thus far, but the concern is that accidents could occur in the future.

Now, I understand that this has been a major problem in some other provinces, particularly in the Province of Ontario. They have been looking at ways of improving safety in this area. I realize in asking for some attention to this problem that regulations do exist and that the impr oper loading of logs is illegal. However, as I'm sure the Min ister can app reciate, in the North where the population density is very low, we have very few policemen out on the highway and it does create some problems in terms of enforcement.

In fact, I've spoken to the RCMP in Thompson and they're quite aware of the problem, but they have ind icated there isn't that much that they can do to cover what amounts to several hundr ed miles of road. So I would like to again raise this matter. It's been a matter of concern to a number of my constituents and ask that he, thr ough his department, look into possible ways of preventing this kind of problem in the future. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm aware of the problem area. There are a number of such areas in the province, as a matter of fact. That specific location we are atten ding to.

There are meetings being held as between our people and the law enforcement people in that particular locali ty. Hopeful ly, there will be some results from that and we will come to grips with the problem in one way or another; but we are aware and we're trying to deal with it. MR. S. ASHTON: I appreciate the Minis ter's attention to this problem and there's one final comment, Mr. Chairman, which I've held off from making until now. That was in regard to some of the previous discussion as to the cutback of a position in terms of safety.

You know, I share the concerns of the Member for La Verendrye in terms of the problems with Autopac wrecks. I've heard of a number of cases of people in my constituency having problems with that, and I app reciate the general concern about the condition of cars of that nature. I would hope that - in fact, I'm sure the Minis ter would agree that with the introduction of any new programs, of the programs that he mentioned were under consideration at the point in time, that there would be the need to expand this department.

So in effect, what is being said by this change in appropriation is not that there's a permanent cutback in one area, but eventually that there is going to be a different series of pr ograms and a di fferent or ientation of the department in that area. You know, I know the Member for Elmwood attempted to sugge st that perhaps it was up to various people here to make suggestions in that regard. I know members of the opposition have objected; they are making suggestions in this regard.

I don't think that there's any problem in that and I would certainly, as a member of the Legislature, suggest that we do look at a number of these areas and that we move in those areas and provide the staffing for them. So I' ve got no hesitation in saying that perhaps at some point in time this year that we may have to expand this area. So, as I said, I've saved this comment till now because I didn't want to provoke any further debate in that area but, you know, I for one can see some need for expansion in this particular area of the Min ister's appropriations in the upcoming year. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, back about two years ago, the Canadian Conference of Motor Transport Adminis trators, I think, set up a National Review Committee on the requir ements and regulations needed for load securing devices. Has that committee reported yet? HON. S. USKIW: Apparently the report on that is not in. MR. D. ORCHARD: But, Mr.

Chairman, if I recall correctly, a lot of the issues that have been raised tonight on load fast ening are to be resolved or at least add ressed in that, and so reports should be coming forward for potential national regulation of that. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am hopeful that something will develop out of that, although I don't know at what stage of research and development that group is at the moment. All of these kinds of things do receive national atten tion through various interprovincial groups, departments of government, the conference and so on, the RTAC people and so on.

So I'm certain that something productive should come out of it, but when I can't ind icate. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, on this item, is there any change in the cost-sh aring of Motor Vehicle Branch registration charges between Autopac and the Motor Vehicle Branch? HON. S. USKIW: I am advis ed that there has been a change and that it is more equitable for the department, it is down for the department. MR. D. ORCHARD: In other words, if I can derive from what the Min ister is sayi ng, is that MPIC is paying a larger share of the vehicle registration costs? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter has to make a correction.

HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the split now is 55, the department; and 45, MPIC, so our position has imp roved somewhat. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now I forget what the cost-sharing was that was established about two or three years ago, but I thought that it was in the neighbourhood of 60- 40, with Autopac paying the 60. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that this formula is what was esta blis hed two years ago, November, 1978 agreeme nt. 2214

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(aX1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Under this item of Admin istration, there are grants to the Canada Safety Council, Manitoba Safety Council and the Traffic In jury Resea rch Foundation of Canada; could the Minister ind icate what the level of those grants are this year, and whether there is any change from last year's level of funding to those three organizations? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, they are almost identical. The Conference of Motor Transport Authorities is a few hun dred dollars less. The others are actually identical, year-over-year.

I'm sorry, no. There is 13,000 less to the Manitoba Safety Council in 1983-84 over 1982-83, 133.5 down to 120. That, too, Mr. Chairman, is based on a budgetary consideration. MR. D. ORCHARD: And to the Canada Safety Council and the Traffic Injury Research Foundation of Canada? HON. S. USKIW: The num bers for the Canada Safety Council are 2,400 for each of the two years; and the same for the Traffic Injury Research Foundation, 2,800 for 1982-83 and the same for 1983-84; Conference of Motor Transport Authorities was 11 ,520 in 1982-83, it's down to 11 , 138.00.

The American Association of Motor Vehicle Adminis trators is up from 2,670 to 2,800.00. MR. D. ORCHARD: You know, this is getting to become a regular speech, I guess we are going to be able to make, but here, again, is a de-e mpha sization of safety in the department due to, and I'll use the Premier's words, repriorization. We have got the Manitoba Safety Council suffering a 10 percent reduction in funding this year. Once again, I make the analogy for the Member for Dauphin, and the Member for Ste.

Rose, and for other members of the government caucus that are going to have the whips on for seat belts and helmets, that here, once again, you have sat by and, while the government is increasing funding 19 percent overall, you've let the Manitoba Safety Council enjoy a 10 percent reduction in funding. The Manitoba Safety Council spends most of their money developing highway safety programs for drivers, as well as, for motorcyclists, and here you are cutting back funding again that will dir ectly lead to the safer operation of vehicles and motorcycles on the highways and streets of the Province of Manitoba.

The Manitoba Safety Council has also provided a brand new service, as of about two years ago, a Farm Safety Course, and no doubt, that is going to fall under the axe of reduced program ming. On the one hand, you bring in compulsory legisla tion, which the Mini ster says is a low-cost safety item. You're right; it is low cost to the government, as a matter of fact, it is a revenue maker for the government because you're going to be collecting $1 00 fines, $20 to $1 00 fi nes.

It's going to be a mo ney maker for the government; at the same time, you are cutting back, not only on vehicle safety inspection crews, but you're cutting back on the Safety Council funding. I find that, indeed, difficult to understand for a government that claims they're all in favour of safety, and I reiterate, once again, this reminds me more of a government that has chaos for policy development and no idea of where they are going. Mr. Chairman, I think that should do it on (

a) and (b), un less the Min ister has any remarks. A MEMBER: You can hardly defend the indefensible. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6. (a)( 1)- pass; 6. (a)(2)- pass; 6.(bX1)- pass; 6.(bX2). The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now there is alm ost a 30 percent reduction in Other Expenditures under Driver Licencing and Vehicle Registra tion. How is this accomplished while, theoretical ly, maintaining the level of service that that department will offer? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the decrease is due to the fact that the purcha se of new licence pla tes was completed in 1982-83 fiscal year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, okay, that's fine, that can pass now. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(bX2)- pass; 6.(cX1). MR. D. ORCHARD: Just on 6.(c), in general. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ok ay, 6.(c). MR. D. ORCHARD: Once again, I note that the Other Expenditur es under the Safety group are down. They are not down as much as they have been in other areas, but they're down by some 2 percent year-over­ year. I suggest, with all due respect, once again, that the government is de-emphasizing safety at a time that they're bringing in compulsory helmets and seat-belt legislation as a safety measure.

The Safety Division in the Motor Vehicle Branch have been responsible for providing safety courses, etc., etc., and I ask the Min ister, are you able to maintain the Sn owmobile and Bic ycle Safety Cour ses, and advertising and literature that's available; are you able to maintain the same level of driver education program? You have already ind icated that the Vehicle Inspection Program is down. Are you going to have to sign ificantly reduce any program for safety education and safety training as a resu lt of this reduction in Other Expenditures through the Safety Division? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, what the member is debating is what has already been discussed; it is the same item, it's the one inspection unit. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm not finished. The balance of the programs are not reduced, but the funding is zero growth. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, just a question under here - I don't know whether this is possibly the right 2215

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 spot - but under the Driver Trai ning Program, which I assume would come under Safety, at one time there was an offer by Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation to make a sizable funding grant to the Driver Training Program, providing the Department of Education would provide maybe a half a credit or some thing for it. What stage have those negotiations arrived at, or have they completely ceased? HON. S. USKIW: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that the credit was for the instructors, not for the students. MR. D. BLAKE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't really care who gets the money.

I understand that they were prepared to provide upwards of $1 million, providing the Department of Education would include the Driver Safety Training Program as part of the curriculum and allow some portion of a credit, an education credit, towards those completing the course completely. Those talks had bogged down to some degree because the Department of Education were reluctant to provide any credit merit for it. HON. S. US KI W: There are no credits tha t are applicable to the student, Mr. Chairman, that I'm aware of. MR. D.

BLAKE: Yes, I might suggest that if that offer is still available, if the Public Insurance Corporation still feels so inclined to provide that type of funding, that maybe the Min ister should continue those talks with the Minis ter of Education and try to maybe recover or to pick up those funds and include them in the Driver Safety Program in the high schools. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I think the member should be aware that we do subsidize that program, so the student doesn't pay the full shot. The province picks up - I don't know what percentage it is.

We're paying about 75 percent of the cost of that from the public purse. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, I'm well aware of that, Mr. Chairman. My point is tha t if you can pick up about $1 million from the Public Insurance Corporation, seeing as they're enjoying some fairly sizable profits under the four years of good management and good corporate guidance from the Board of Directors they received; it would seem advisable to take advantage of that generous offer. MR. CH AIRMAN: 6. (c)( 1)- pass; 6. (c)(2)- pass; 6.(d)(1)- pass- the Member tor Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I just have one item under 6.(c).

Is the Mini ster anticipating that they will be able to maintain the level of critical item inspection of heavy trucks at the scales, or is that also going to be reduced, is the effort going to be reduced under the reduction in the safety spending? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that was a pilot project and we are not continuing with it because we don't have the funds. MR. H. ENNS: You're going to say tha t once too often, Mr. Min ister. HON. S. USKIW: There's no new program. That was not in the program, Mr. Chairman, that was a pilot project and we have not entered another new project into this package. MR. H.

ENNS: In other words, there was one innovative Pr ogr essive Conservative Programs tha t this government can't carry on. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, my colleague, the MLA for Lakeside, has hit the nail on the head, because that was quite an in novative program.

It didn't delay the trucking ind ustry; it provided an inspection of brakes, steering of heavy trucks on the highways; it uncovered, in a lot of cases, as I understand, safety defects of heavy trucks that were on the road; it led to the repair of those and putting those vehicles in safer condition, and safety is the name of the game - according to this government - because they're bringing in helme ts and seat belts - man datory use - because of safety.

That was a program that we brought in, the Critical Item Ins pection Service, and I think we had three people working on that during the summer months to do critical item inspection on heavy trucks. I think, from all reports I received, and I think possibly the registrar would confirm it, that was a very successful program. It was very effective in pointing out to the trucking ind ust ry, to some of the people in the trucking indu stry, potential problems that we're going to have. It didn't unduly delay the trucking indu stry and it was a very good safety effort.

That's another area of cutback by this government in an area of safety, an important area of safety, because if a steering arm fails on a heavy truck, they do a heck of a lot more damage than a lot of other vehicles on the road if they happen to cross the white line and plow into an oncoming vehicle or anything. So, I regret, once again, to find out that the financial emp hasis on safety is grea tly reduced by this government. I regret that this Min ister has been forced by his Cabinet colleagues to cut back on funding of safety programs in the Province of Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I want to correct the Member for Pembina. There was no program funding for that project. That was a pilot project that was undertaken by existing staff for a short period of time. The budgetary dir ections for this fiscal year was zero grow th, ther efore we could not int roduc e a new program, and we did not introduce that in to the program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 10:00 p.m., what do the members of the Comm ittee want to do? MR. D. ORCHARD: Carry on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Carry on. The Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, the Minis ter can indic ate what happened, but the reality of it is that another safety program, pilot project or not, using existing staff or not, is no longer available. So, on (d), we're now passed 2216

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 [c), let's deal with the (d). Could the Min ister provide us with the names of the people who serve on the three boards: The Hig hway Traffic Board, the Motor Transport Board - well the four boards actually - the Taxicab Board and the Licence Suspension Appeal Board? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the member, of course, is aware that Mr. John Kinley is the Chairman of the Board. The Vice-chairman is Mr. Ram say, the second vice-chairman is Mr. Burtniak; and then we have Alice Kachur, William Matthew, Howard Mitchell, Norman Scott, and Harry Gordon.

That's the complete Motor Transport Board, yes. That's it for the Motor Transport Board, Mr. Chairman. Do I understand that the member wants all the boards? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes. HON. S. USKIW: On the Hig hway Traffic Board, we have Walter Zarecki as chairman, Marv Nordman, vice­ chairman, J. Perchaluk, A. R. Paul ley, and Isabelle Lawson. That's it. On the Taxicab Board, I don't have that information, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: But you could provide that, Mr. Chairman? HON. S. USKIW: Yes. With respect to the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, we have Mr.

Bejyk as chairman, Anatole Shafransky as vice-chairman, Teresa Novak, Charles Carlson, Georges Boily, Mary Swidin sky, Toni Vost ers, Walter Fontaine, Aurele Desau ln iers, Audrey Willis. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: It's my understanding - well there was a backlog at the Hig hway Traffic Board or - pardon me - the Motor Transport Board and the Licence Suspension Appeal Board. There was always a bit of a backlog there. In terms of months, what would be the backlog in those two boards now? HON. S. USKIW: About eight months in the Motor Transport Board, Mr. Chairman. It was 13 when Mr.

Kinley began his appointments, so we've gained five months since that period of time. That's in two-and­ a-half years. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now I didn't realize that Mr. Mackling was doing such a terrible job over there when he was Chairman. Mr. Mackling, when he was the Chairman, kept on telling me that we were only six months behind, and we're still eight months behind after the tremendous admin istration of Mr. Kin ley. How about the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, Mr. Chairman? HON. S. USKIW: That one is a matter of weeks, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now on the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, you have got Mr.

Shafransky on as Vice­ Chairman. I belie ve he lives in Gillam, is it? HON. S. USKIW: Leaf Rapids. MR. D. ORCHARD: Leaf Rapids? Now does Mr. Sha fransky come in to attend as Vice-C hairma n hearings in Winnip eg on a regular basis? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Board is split into two parts, I believe, and each

section deals with a part of the province. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is it fair to assume that Mr. Shafransky deals with the Northern part of the province then? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. Could the Min ister, and I don't suspect he'll have that, but if he could provide information as to the num ber of appeal cases that have been heard before the Licence Suspension Appeal Board and the number of refusals to renew licences. HON. S. USKIW: Licence suspension? MR. D.

ORCHARD: Licence Suspension Appeal Board, and the number of board decisions to refuse the appeal of a suspended driver to have his licence reinstated, if the Min ister could provide that. I don't need that tonight, but if he could provide it to me at a later date. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm just trying to determine whether I have it here. No, I don't have that information, but I am willing to provide that for the mem ber. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(d) ( 1)- pass; 6.(d) (2)-p ass.

Resol ution 10 1, Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 3,88 0,400 for Hig hways and Transportation for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984-pass. Comm ittee rise. MR. D. ORCHARD: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: The next item is 7.(a) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, would it be all right if the Minis ter gave us a - we've got the Construction Program and, if we dealt with this item in general as we did with Motor Vehicle Branch, then we could pass it all at once. Would that be okay? Then can I move down to the budget of - I'm trying to find it.

Well okay, let's talk about Winter Roads. I note your budget is the same. You are projecting the same budget under Winter Roads. Now are you doing less mi leage, or is the mi leage the same on Winter Roads? If so, how are you going to come in on budget, because the past trend has been for the contracts to increase year by year? HON. S. USKIW: I have to remind the member that I ind icated on numerous occasions that we have a zero growth position and, therefore that means that there will be some very hard bargaining on the winter road 2217

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 contracts this year. That's the basis of the figures remaining the same. MR. D. ORCHARD: I just want to wish the Mini ster the best of luck. Now on Other Projects, there is a sizable reduction on the Other Projects. Could the Min ister indic ate some of the major deletions in the Other Projects that are resulting in this repriorization? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, last year we spent $800,000 on the Norway House Airport and to complete it only requi res 360 this year, so that's a substantive reduction.

Last year, we also purchased the CL-215 for over $3 million and we are not purchasing one this year. With respect to resource roads, the Cross Lake cable ferry was $400,000 and this year it's 50,000.00. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now under the No rthern Development Agreement, as it wound down, funding done on behalf of the Department of Northern Affairs of course is winding down. Under the new agreement, is the Min ister expe cting to und ertake road construction? Is road construction one of the focal points in the new Northlands Agreement? I'm not familiar with it.

Is there going to be much work in Northern Manitoba as a result of the new Northlands? HON. S. USKIW: The projects, Mr. Chairman, are airport improvements, $572,000; communi ty roads, $400,000 less the enabling vote of 20 percent which is 194, which leaves us a net of 777. Airport improvements, we have an increase of 37,000 which is a total of 572,000 this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: It's just about a year ago now, Mr.

Chairman, that I drew the attention to the Min ister of a road that runs through his constituency and one of my constituents has to travel frequently to his cottage. That's on P.R. 31 4. As I say, I drew it to the Min ister's attention last year that this here Mr. Ashley has ruptured a gas tank up there and blew tires, and the Minis ter said a year ago that he was going to have the rocks picked up and impr ove that road condition. I wonder if the Min ister can tell me tonight and Mr. Ash ley if that road is impro ved to any extent this year. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the member is quite right.

I recall discussing that

section of road. I also travelled it last summer and it's not one that I would recommend for the un beware driver, I can assure him. It is a park developed road. It was not originally built by this department, as I recall it, but we now have assumed respon sibility for it, at least in the last number of years we have. It requir es a great deal of upgrading to bring it up to any kind of a standard. It's a very hazardous sect ion, a fairly lengthy one.

The reason tha t we did not proceed with the expenditure of dollars that were all ocated last year was the fact that we could not get clearance from the environmental people. That's because it is in a park area. We have to have clearance from environmental interests and we have not received that clearance as of this date. MR. L. HYDE: Another question I'd like to bring to the Min ister, Mr.

Chairman, I drew it to the Min ister's attention last year about the condition of a portion of P.R. 227, particularly the area from Oakland west to No. 16 Hig hway, and in dis cussion with him on this particular issue, I drew it to his attention how the heavy truck traffic that has been using that road and in regard to supplying of material for High way 16, they've just pounded that

section of that road to the point that it is im passable when it comes to any degree of wet weather at all. This last fall, I, personally , was caught on that road wanting to travel it with pulling a chemical sp reader behind a half-ton truck and I virtually got stuck. Now, that area is a heavily traveled road if conditions are at all reaso nable and I suggest to him that this road needs some immediate construction on it because it is almost impassable when the heavy trucks are using it to the extent that they are. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the member will note that that particular road is in the carry-over if he looks on Page 4. MR. L. HYDE: I'm sor ry, I mis sed that then. HON. S. USKIW: Page 4 of the carry-over, he will notice 15 .1 miles which is really a second resurf acing in four years and it's mainly due to the hauling of aggregates to the highway construction projects on Trans-Canada and the Yellowhead , and we are not intending to do anything on this road until that part of our program is complete sometime later on this sum mer, I presume.

We still have tonna ges of aggregates to haul in that area and there is no point in upgrading that road and then destroying it agai n. We've wasted some million­ or-so dollars, maybe two, I don't know, by having it done in the first place before the massive tonnages of gravel and aggregates were hauled to the other roads. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I appr eciate what the Minis ter is saying because I can understand the position that he and his department are in and I can understand why they wish not to put a great large expense on that until that heavy truck usage is completed.

But in the meantime, I'm wondering, sir, if you will endeavour to have better maintenance done on the road. I brought this to your attention last year that the farmers tell me that it's very seldom that they see a maintainer on that road and if you could assist them in the area with a little better maintenance, it would be an improvement. HON. S. USKI W: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have no argument with that. I presume the road is maintained, but if it isn't adequate and we are hauling excessive amounts of product from that area on that road, then I agree with what the member is sugges ting. MR. L.

HYDE: There's one more point, I'd like to show my appreciation of the fact that the Min ister is going to complete a

section of the road lead ing to St. Ambroise Beach where they're going to be grading and graveling that - I think it's 15 miles if I remember right, some thing like that anyway - and that is certainly going to be an improvement. There are some very dangerous curves on that road and I understand they're going to 2218

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 be straightened out and the people of the area are going to be very pleased with that HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, just getting back to the other issue. lt may be that we might have to let that road go back to a graveled surface in order to be able to maintain it during the heavy truck haul and then resurface it after that haul is completed. it's very difficult to maintain a sealed surface or an asphalt surface, that is, patching of asphalt. We may just let it go back to gravel for a period of time. MA. L. HYDE: I just don't follow you, sir. What road are you speaking about? HON. S.

USKIW: 227. MA. L. HYDE: 227, from Oakland west to 16? That's nothing but gravel. lt has never been any different HON. S. USKIW: No, I guess I must mean 248, the other part of it MA. L. HYDE: Oh yes, okay. HON. S. USKIW: Because the two are in the same project. There are 7.8 miles of 227 and 7.3 are both listed as a carry over and they're listed together. So, the 248 is the

section that I'm talking about, which is 7.3 miles. MA. L. HYDE: Yes, I see. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The area that I represent, of course, is the area in which you have the most traffic in rural Manitoba of any constituency whatsoever. How's that? You also have the highest assessment of land. There is no other rural area in Manitoba in which you get as much revenue as what you do out of my particular area. Now, last year, under the Highways Program we received one bridge, Mr. Chairman, granted it was a fairly large bridge, but that's all that we received.

This year, Mr. Chairman, we are receiving absolutely nothing. There is absolutely nothing in the Estimates in regard to the particular area that I represent Now, Mr. Chairman, when we formed the government in 1977, there were a number of highway projects in what we would, at that time, consider to be NDP territory because they had NDP representatives representing them. The Minister of Highways at that time said it is customary that whenever any project is started it is completed no matter who is representing, but you do complete that project. Mr.

Chairman, we have the 428, which has been started, there is absolutely nothing on it. The work that has been done on it is going to ruin, because the program has not been completed. We have the 201 which has not been completed; we need six miles of construction in order to complete this; absolutely nothing is done. We have the 243 in which we had started a survey on it; absolutely nothing is done. We have the 421; there is absolutely nothing done.

All these highways are provincial roads that do not require a large or a huge expenditure, but they do need work on them in order for us to keep the roads in the condition so that the local traffic can use these roads in order to get their produce into the required distribution point, which is mainly Winkler. We're talking about potatoes; we're talking about sugar beets; we're talking about all the special crops that are raised in that particular area.

I cannot help but think back many years ago when one Wally Miller was the MLA for the Constituency of Rhineland and when the Estimates of Highways came up and he said there are millions for everybody but there is not a penny for Rhineland and I must say, at this particular time, there is not a penny for Rhineland. I am most upset about the way the Minister is Ignoring the constituency that has the most traffic, that creates the most revenue for this particular province and we're not getting one mile of construction. Mr. Chairman, I would like the Minister to justify the position that he is taking.

We are getting zilch. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can understand the member's frustration. I believe he's close to being accurate. I think there's only about $200-and-some thousand allocated for that part of that particular district I again want to emphasize, for whatever it's worth, that the total construction program is cut by about a fifth from last year . Now within that is a huge carryover

section of some pretty big projects. We need about $8 million just to complete No. 12 and the Trans-Canada Intersection with a few miles of hard surface. That kind of expenditure in one location eats up an awful lot of options in many other locations. That doesn't happen to be in NDP country, which the member was alluding to, that happens to be in very strong Tory land, but it's the completion of a major project that was undertaken four or five years ago, the twinning of the highway to Steinbach.

We don't argue with that. lt has to be completed but it is a massive drain on a very short budget situation this year . Highway 75 is another example of fairly substantial commitment it's not in NDP country either, it's in good Tory land. So I reject the notion that we have provided dollars for highway construction based on political boundaries. I don't know what percentage of the highway work goes where, but I'm certain that a good chunk of it is not represented by New Democrats, Mr. Chairman.

What is the major factor, and I want to re-emphasize that, is that we are working with a program four-fifths of what it was last year, and with a lot of carryover within that, so our options for a new highway construction were very minimal this year. MA. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I recognize the work, and I recognize the problem that the Minister is facing where his expenditures have been cut back by, he says, one-fifth. I recognize all those things. The problem in the area that I respresent is not four­ lane highways, all we're asking for is roads so that we can get our produce to marke t.

We're not interested in four-lane roads, we're just interested in roads, and we're interested in provincial roads which do not cost a heck of a lot of money. 2219

Thursday, 28 April, 1983 We're not interested in huge expen ditur es, but some work needs to be done in some of these provincial roads in order for the people to get their produce to market. Some attention has to be paid towards that particular situation. I'm asking, the Minis ter, said he didn't do anything with them last year, and again this year there is absolutely nothing. Now we saw one bridge last year; this year absolutely nothing is happening. The people are getting very very upset, because we're running into very serious difficulties in getting the produce to market.

I hope that the Min ister is going to take some of these situations into consideration and that he is going to make sure that at least, if he can't do it this year, that at least for next year, some of these roads are going to receive some atten tion.

Because if he's not going to do this, then the work that has been done in previous years is all going to be for naught, because these roads are going to be driven right down below the prairie level, and we'll have the same situation that we've had for a number of years on many of these roads where the deepest ditch is the road , where the ditches are higher than what the road is. That is the type of situation, Mr. Chairman, that we've had out there on many of these provincial roads for many years. It is impossible to get your produce to market.

Now, if we're going to receive revenue out of that particular area of the province, then we also have to look after it so that we can get the produce to market. HON. S. USK IW: Well, Mr. Chairman, surely the Member for Rhin eland - is it Rhineland? - isn't telling me that during the four years of a government that he was part of that he didn't get his road work managed. Surely he is not suggesting that. There must have been some work done in Rhi neland during the term of his government.

I don't think that he should expect that in a matter of the second year that his primary roads are going to get the greatest amount of attention from this government in a year of cutbacks. I mean that is a bit much to expect. I would have thought that he would have had a bit of a catch-up situation during the four years of the term of the previous admin istration. MR. A. BROWN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. We did have a bit of a catch-up because we had an im possible situation. The provincial trunk highways, which are the expensive roads, they have been done in the last four years.

I would just like to remind the Mini ster that prior to my coming into politics, for 14 years we had a Social Credit member represe nting my area and there was absolutely no expenditure in roads at that particular time. For 14 years we had not seen any roads in there since the Wally Mill er regime really, which is a long, long time ago as the Min ister well app reciates. We did have an upda te on the provincial trunk hig hways, which we were very, very happy about and which really helped us along. So, Mr.

Chairman, the expensi ve work really has been done, because the provincial trunk highways that was the expensive work. All we're asking for now is for some money being spent on the provincial roads, which are in a deplorable condition and which are alm ost imp assable. Many times of the year, as I already was saying, that they're below the prairie level in many instances, and that the deepest ditch is the one that you're driving in. We have to pay attention to some of th at construction. We're not asking for huge expenditu res of money. We're asking for six miles of road on the 201, which needs to be constructed.

We're asking for another lift on the 428. We're asking for five miles of construction on the 421. Again the right-of-way has been purchased, every1hing is ready to go. We're asking for the 243. Again the survey has been done and we realize that it's going to take a number of years to complete that road. So what in the Sam Hill, do two, three, or five miles, or six miles a year, but do some thing. That is really what we're asking, because it's most frustrating, Mr. Chairman, if there is absolutely no activity whatsoever.

Another thing that is needed in that particular area is, in time of flooding along the Red River we need another route into Winnipeg. I'm sure that the Min ister has received a number of presentations on behalf of a route such as that.

The way the situation is now, if the Red River is flooding, the closest route that these poeple have going into the city is that they have to take a detour, which would be approxi mately 75 miles which they would have to drive, extra miles, getting into the City of Winnip eg, which presents a big problem for some of the in dustries out there, and in particular for the CSP Foods who are in the oil busi ness, in the edible oil busin ess. I know that the Minis ter has received many petitions on this.

It's another area that we have to take a real close look at, that we have to start making plans, in order when situations such as that occur that we can cope with these. But, Mr. Chairman, we're not asking for huge expenditu res. We're asking for some attention to some of the problems that we have at the present time. HON. S. USKIW: Wel