Manitoba Hansard — 5 December 2005 (Sitting 24, 38th Legislature, 4th Session)

38-4-24

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVII No. 24 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, December 5, 2005

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P.

MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. Vacant Fo rt Whyte P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

885 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 5, 2005 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Provincial Road 340 Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The hard surfacing of the unpaved portion of PR 340, south of Canadian Forces Base Shilo towards Wawanesa, would address the last few neglected kilometres of this road and increase the safety of motorists who travel on it.

Heavy traffic has increas ed on PR 340 due to the many large farms involved in potato and hog production, agricultural-related businesses, Hutterite colonies and the Maple Leaf plant in Brandon. A fully paved road would support local business and lessen the damage to vehicles. Annual average traffic volumes on PR 340 are increasing with commuter traffic from Wawanesa, Stockton, Nesbitt and surrounding farms to Shilo and Brandon.

The arrival of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in 2004 and increased employment at the Maple Leaf plant in Brandon means there has been an influx of new families in the area. Improving the rural highway infrastructure in this location will be an additional reason for these families and others to settle and stay in the area. Access to the Criddle-Vane Homestead Provincial Park would be greatly enhanced. PR 340 is an alternate route for many motorists travelling to Brandon coming off PTH 2 east and to Winnipeg via the Trans-Canada Highway No. 1.

This upgrade would also ease the traffic congestion on PTH 10. All Manitobans deserve a safe and well- maintained rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux) to consider hard surfacing of the unpaved portion of PR 340, south of Canadian Forces Base Shilo, towards Wawanesa. This petition signed by Dave Mooney, Shane Wilton, Alf Arnold and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House.

Crocus Investment Fund Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): To the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Government was made aware of serious problems involving the Crocus Fund back in 2001. As a direct result of the government ignoring the red flags back in 2001, over 33 000 Crocus investors lost over $60 million. Manitoba's provincial auditor stated "We believe the department was aware of the red flags at Crocus and failed to follow up on those in a timely way." The relationship between some union leaders, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and the NDP seems to be the primary reason as for why the government ignored the red flags. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider the need to seek clarification on why the government did not act on fixing the Crocus Fund back in 2001. Signed by Rudy Alvaran, Emma Tan and Guia Alvaran. * (13:35) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minis ter of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the Communities

886 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 Economic Development Fund for the year ending March 31, '05. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today students from Sansome Scho ol. These students are under the direction of their teacher, Mr. Briggs, and are the guests of the ho nourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray). Also seated in the public gallery are Progressive Conservative constituency assistants.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. Also in the public gallery we have with us from Dr. D. W. Penner School 23 Grade 6 students under the direction of Mr. Harry Bell. These students are in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick). Also in the public gallery we have with us from Gordon Bell High School Life Skills Department, 8 students under the direction of Mrs. Maxine Bell. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

ORAL QUESTIONS Public Schools Student Safety Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on Friday, students at Shaftesbury High School in Winnipeg were terrorized by a group of teenage intruders who entered their school and violently assaulted them. This brazen attack occurred in the middle of the day. Parents are telling us that they are afraid. Their primary concern, as it should be the concern of this government, is for the safety of our children.

It is the responsibility of this NDP government to ensure that our schools are equipped and prepared to deal with all intruders who prey upon our students. Our students' lives are being put in danger. What action is the Premier (Mr. Doer) going to take to ensure that when our students are at school that their safety is guaranteed? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to state, first and foremost, that it is the most important issue for the people on this side of the House as well that student safety is a very important issue for government.

Having said that, we have been working with a number of initiatives with our partners in the Safe Schools Charter. The Safe Schools Charter requires an emergency response plan, and in the event that events such as the one that took place on Friday occur, we expect that the staff at this school and the school division will be reviewing the situation to see how the emergency response plan worked. We also have been providing assistance with the Education, Citizenship and Youth staff to ensure that the emergency response plans work as well. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr.

Speaker, members on that side of the House would recognize that it was us on this side of the House that demanded a Safe Schools summit. That was an initiative that we took. This is a very serious issue, and we know that students deserve to be safe in our schools. Students need this peace of mind. Frankly, so do the parents need the same peace of mind. Friday's incident clearly indicates that we must get tough on gangs, Mr. Speaker, not only in our streets but in our schools.

Our community safety plan that we developed, Enough is Enough!, is designed to send a strong message that violent activity will not be tolerated in our schools. We called for a greater public police presence in our schools, including the placement of retired police officers within our schools, because we on this side of this House are not prepared to stand by as youth violence escalates not only in the streets but in our schools. Mr. Speaker, when will this NDP Premier (Mr. Doer) make our schools safer?

When will he make this a priority and provide leadership and the resources to ensure the safety of these schools? * (13:40) Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member recognizes that it is indeed a community issue, and right now, in the community, there are police officers at the school addressing the concerns that were raised and being identified and getting students and community participating in the investigative process. There are counsellors available to assist students and teachers if they would like to discuss the impacts of the events that transpired on Friday.

We recognize this as a community initiative. W orking Together: Safe Caring Schools, Families and Communities is

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 887 one of the documents that we have produced in support. A Whole School Approach to Safety and Belonging is one of the documents that we put in to show support. Safe Schools Manitoba is an initiative by this side of the government. All these initiatives are being brought forward to assist in issues exactly like this, Mr. Speaker, and we will continue to work with our partners to ensure that schools are a safe learning environment. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, this minister, this member of the government, stands and reads a response.

People are entering into our schools in the middle of the day. That is the issue. This government is doing nothing on that. We hear lip-service from this government all the time. Despite passing legislation a year and a half ago, this government is only providing the Safe Schools co-ordinating with part-time funding. When will this NDP government make this priority an issue? When will they make this issue a priority? I am sorry. When will they provide the proper resources required to schools to prevent these children from being terrified during the middle of the day? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr.

Speaker, again, with respect to the incident on Friday, I would first of all like to thank the teachers who put themselves at risk and the administrators who put themselves at risk and the support staff that put themselves at risk, put themselves in harm's way to ensure the safety of the students in the school on Friday. This is a community issue. We have worked with a number of different stakeholders in the community. We will continue to work with the stakeholders in the community, Mr. Speaker.

Our commitment has been clear with the Safe Schools Charter, with the code of conduct, with establishing Safe Schools Manitoba, with working with multidisciplinary, multijurisdictional groups, co- ordinated efforts to ensure that students are safe in our schools. It is something that has been first and foremost when we took office and since we formed government, and I will not remind members opposite of their record on the same issue. Safe Schools Codes of Conduct Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, violence is escalating in our schools.

On Friday a group of teens invaded Shaftesbury High School, terrorized students and threatened to return. One student was struck in the head with a gun and others were sprayed with mace. For the past year, Mr. Speaker, our side of the House has been pushing the Safe Schools agenda. However, this Minister of Education has refused to provide us with the Safe Schools codes of conduct. We want to see if the safety measures are set at the same and consistent levels across this province. I would ask the minister, who has refused us on three or four occasions to table those codes of conduct, if he will table them now.

Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite has requested thes e on three occasions and on three occasions she has been provided with the information as to why we do not provide her with those codes of conduct. It is very clear, Mr. Speaker. Now the member opposite says for the last year they have been pushing the Safe Schools agenda. We have been pushing it for six years. Members opposite did nothing for 11 with respect to the Safe Schools agenda. Our commitment has included legislation. It has included the codes of conduct, the emergency response plans.

It has included partnership with a number of different community organizations. It has included consultation with a number of different community organizations. Members opposite were very dismissive of that consultation, one member saying, "consult, consult, consult," another member standing up in the House and saying, "Ignore all that, we have a better idea," and there was a third member opposite who said, "It is a waste of time." Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education says that he has this plan in place and it is working.

Well, if it is working, why are we seeing increasing violence in our schools? Teachers and students at Shaftesbury High School were in danger on Friday. * (13:45) The minister passed Safe Schools legislation one and a half years ago that says these schools must have an emergency response plan in place to deal with these situations. He refuses to table the codes of conduct. Will he tell us today and guarantee us today that every single school in Manitoba has an emergency response plan in place and that schools know how to use them?

888 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, I have said it in the House, and I will say it again, all schools in Manitoba have codes of conduct. The member opposite talked about being very specific. While the member opposite talks about prescriptive ideas around how we deal with issues in the schools as far as school safety is concerned, what we have said from day one is we are going to consult with the stakeholders. Admi nistrators and teachers and the community know their students best. They know how to develop the codes of conduct.

They know how to develop the emergency response plans. They know what is best for their community. In the event that these emergency response plans do not address the specifics of an incident, then they take a look at that emergency response plan and see how they can do yet a better job of ensuring that our schools are safe. We are not being prescriptive. We are allowing schools and partners to develop what works best in their community, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, what he has done is he has dumped the responsibility for school safety on to the schools.

He is not showing any leadership in this issue at all. We have the codes of conduct here from the ones that we could get. This minister is wrong when he says that they are all finalized. Very few of them actually, in fact, only about half are finalized. This minister is not showing any leadership and responsibility. Kids with guns entered a school on Friday. I would like to ask him today: When is he going to do his job and show lead ership on this issue so that kids, parents and teachers all know that our schools are safe? When is he going to do what he is supposed to do? Mr. Bjornson: Mr.

Speaker, teachers, parents and the community have been saying for a long time now, we need to make our schools a safe environment. In fact, they were saying long before 1999, when we took office, and we started to enact a number of different initiatives to make schools a safe environment. Members opposite had a long time to do something about school safety but they chose to ignore it. We have brought forward legislation. We have a number of different resources in place. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Bjornson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We have a number of initiatives, a number of partnerships, with different non-profit, non-government organizations, a number of interjurisdictional activities that we have been engaged in, a number of interdepartmental organizations that we have been engaged in in making our schools a safer place. We have been involved in this proce ss for six years. Members opposite had 11 years. They chose to do nothing. Public Schools Student Safety Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): The Minister of Education has been studying for six years, but he has done nothing on this particular issue.

Manitoba Progressive Conservatives put forward a plan to bring more security and better safety co-ordination to schools through the use of retired police officers. This is about protecting the students, and it is about protecting teachers, Mr. Speaker. Schools should be used and should not be concerned about having drug sales in the hallways. They should not be used for gang recruitment. They should not be used for acts of violence. I want to ask this Minister of Justice today if he is going to accept our plan, use the retired officers and ensure that there is safety in schools again in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I know that members of the opposition had some ideas. I am glad that many are already in place or underway in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, in terms of police in schools, I am pleased because I do not think I have had this opportunity to confirm to the House that the Police in Schools program in the school division of Winnipeg has been reconfirmed for a further three-year period as a result of the involvement of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Smith). Mr.

Speaker, I am also pleased to confirm, I do not think I have had that opportunity, to advise the House that, as a result of provincial funding, there is now a school resource officer of Police in Schools in the city of Brandon, and I have early indications that it has been most successful. Mr. Goertzen: It has taken six years for this minister to go from a pilot project to reconfirm, for another year, a program. We are talking about having retired police officers, not a handful that they have in a program, sprinkled across the city in a couple of schools, rotating around from time to time.

This is a serious problem.

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 889 We need a detachment of retired officers going to the schools, ensuring that there is protection for students, co-ordinating safe ty and making sure the drugs are getting out of the schools, making sure that the gangs are not going into the schools and getting the weapons out of the schools.

We put forward a plan and I want the minister to adopt it today. * (13:50) Will he today give us a commitment that he will use these retired officers, as we suggested, and put forward a real force to ensu re that there is protection in the schools for our students and for our teachers? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I believe the member might not understand the Winnipeg School Division program that we partnered with along with Winnipeg Police Service. It is for a further three-year period during the course of which we will evaluate it to make sure that we build on the strengths and eliminate the shortcomings. Mr.

Speaker, members opposite should also know that, in this current year's budget, we have allocated 23 new positions directly to the City of Winnipeg Police Service, and two weeks ago, members might not have seen that, two weeks ago, we announced in partnership with the City of Winnipeg a further 23 officers. That is, in one year, 46 new police officer positions for the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Goertzen: He is confirming a program that clearly has not been workin g over the last number of years, Mr. Speaker, that is the issue.

At the time when we should be talking about reading, writing and arithmetic, we are talking about gangs, drugs and pistol-whipping in the school. It is completely unacceptable. Parents, teachers and students have the right to expect when their kids are going to school that it is going to be a safe environment and a good learning environment. The Minister of Justice has talked tough. He has talked about putting forward a program that has not worked in the past number of years. He needs to have real resources, dedicated resources.

We know that we could use retired officers to ensure there was a real presence in the sch ools, to co-ordinate the safety, to co-ordinate real safety within the schools. I want him to confirm and to commit that he will put forward the Progressive Conservative plan and get those retired officers into the schools, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, it is passing strange that when we, in 1996, asked the former administration sitting on this side of the House to implement a police in schools program they said no. I am glad they are Johnny-come-latelies on this.

Finally, they seem to have some interest in getting police officers in our schools. We have put police officers in our schools. We are adding police officers to our schools, and with the new resources to the City of Winnipeg Police Service, I look forward to further discussions with Winnipeg Police Service on where those officers will be deployed. To continue my question, Mr. Speaker, I think it is unfortunate as well members opposite do not seem to recognize and acknowledge the work of Winnipeg Police Service when it comes to action in schools. There is the program Take Action in Schools.

There is a school resource unit in addition to the SROs who are deployed in 12 elementary schools in Winnipeg. Thank you. Safe Schools Conservative Party Recommendations Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, parents in the Tuxedo area as well as parents in Manitoba deserve to know that their children are safe when they are at school. Af ter Friday's violent attack at Shaftesbury High School, one parent said about his son, and I quote, "I just want to see him make it to Grade 12." Students need a safe environment to learn and grow.

What is stopping the Minister of Justice from taking the suggestions our party has put forward? Is it his pride or his inability to see this as a serious priority for Manitobans? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, when the Filmon government was asked to get serious about police in schools, when a proposal– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Mackintosh: Someone is embarrassed today. Indeed, when we came into office, we brought forward the idea of police officers who were to be stationed in the schools, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased that, as a result of efforts across departments involving the community, most important of all, involving Winnipeg Police Service, we now have police in schools in Winnipeg. It has now expanded beyond Winnipeg, and we will have further

890 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 discussions in terms of further deployment of Winnipeg police officers. I remind members opposite that it is this government that put police in schools. It is this government that has paid 46 new officer positions in Winnipeg Police Service in one year. * (13:55) Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Education and this government has had six years to deal with this problem, and they have done nothing to provide a safe environment for our children and for teachers in our schools. Shame on them. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Justice has failed to ensure that there is safety for young people both on our streets and in our schools. Providing security is important for school safety but schools cannot do it alone. When children are threatened with weapons in our schools it is an issue of justice and of safety. The Minister of Justice has allowed the situation to worsen under his watch. Why will he not dedicate the resources needed to keep our students and our teachers safe in our schools? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, I personally know that teachers put themselves at risk on a daily basis. They put themselves in harm's way to protect the students, and they have done that time and time again. They have done that for decades. The difference between then and now is that now we have a government that has a Safe Schools Charter, and now we have a government that requires codes of conduct. We have a government that requires emergency response planning. We have a government that has been funding schools appropriately and providing them with additional resources, Mr. Speaker.

We have been working with funding guidance counsellors at a level that has not been seen before in early middle years. We are working with a number of different initiatives, with a number of different departments, to make our schools safer places. This is not the practice of members opposite, 11 years, nothing. Mrs. Stefanson: Manitobans deserve more than the empty rhetoric and broken promises offered by this minister and this government. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans want action, and they want and deserve it now. Enough is enough.

The attack on Friday brought attention to a problem that has been growing under this NDP government. Today some students are afraid to go to school, and their parents feel powerless to protect their children. Our party has brought forward ideas to help prevent violence on our streets and in our schools. Will the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) let parents and students know that there is real hope and commit to our plan of action today, right now? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, the member wants to talk about leadership. We have demonstrated leadership on this issue since we have been elected, since 1999.

That leadership has manifested a number of different programs that we have brought forward. Our commitment starts before the students are in school with respect to student behaviour and student safety with the Triple P Positive Parenting Program which, long term, will be addressing conduct disorder, with the Roots of Empathy program and with the number of different initiatives we have brought forward. That is leadership. Mr. Speaker, leadership is the codes of conduct in the Safe Schools Charter, leadership is the emergency response plan , leadership is also providing resources to the schools.

Members opposite were funding schools in such a way that there were fewer teachers in the schools and fewer kids in the schools, fewer resources in the schools. This government is about resources funding– Mr. Speaker: Order. Public Schools Employee Safety Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Self- congratulatory comments serve little purpose in ensuring that there is some protection for our students and our teachers. Mr. Speaker, a high school principal in Selkirk was injured earlier this year when trying to break up a fight between students.

In 2003, a teacher suffered serious brain injury when attacked in his school by a trespassing intruder. These are just two instances of where teachers have been injured when they have intervened on behalf of their students. I want to ask the Minister of Education whether or not he is prepared to provide the kind of support and leadership to our schools, our teachers, our support staff that will allow them to work in their environment safely and without fear of being injured or hurt on the job. Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, we are providing the supports to teachers, to support staff, to parents and to students. In fact, teachers, parents, students and support staff have been part of that

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 891 dialogue that we have been having for a couple of years now towards the development of the Safe Schools Charter, towards the development of the codes of conduct, towards the development of emergency response plans. They have been part of that consultation process from day one. The difference between now and then is we listened to what the teachers, parents and students had to say. Members opposite chose not to. * (14:00) When we were teachers in 1993, when I was a teacher, we started to request more support for issues of violence and safety in the schools.

Members opposite had a different ag enda for schools. It was cutting funding to schools, it was underresourcing schools, and they chose to do nothing on this very important issue of school safety. We have a plan; we have a policy and we have action. The members opposite have nothing. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, this minister keeps harping back to 1999 when we did not have guns in school. We did not face those issues. He is responsible today and he has to take responsibility.

The Safe Schools legislation was passed a year and a half ago, and the onus has been placed on school boards, principals, teachers and support staff. There are no protocols, no strategies or plans in place today to help teachers or support staff deal with these violent situations in our schools. When will this minister provide the leadership, the direction, and develop the protocols that will assist teachers and support staff in dealing with violence and the presence of weapons in our schools, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, members opposite had their heads in the sand for 11 years.

Members opposite seem to think that none of these problems existed while they were in government. You know the audacity for them to suggest so. These things are happening in our schools and that is why the lobby started then. The difference between then and now? We are listening; we are working with teachers and we are working with the community. We are working with parents to ensure that our schools are safe environments. We produced a number of documents to support the initiation of a number of different initiatives in the schools. We have documents to support parents. We have the safe schools advertising.

We have provided information on bullying. We are doing all kinds of things. Members opposite, if they want a letter and a list of all the things we are doing, plus the response that we are receiving from the community, we can provide that for the members opposite. I know what happens when we talk about leadership, and the Teachers' Society congratulated this government about leadership. I shared that with the members opposite and they took that press release and they ripped it up. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, it is sad that the minister is not only embarrassing himself but his colleagues as well.

When incidents such that occurred at Shaftesbury High School, the memory of the tragedy of Columbine is brought forefront to our minds. No parent, no student, no teacher would ever want to have a tragedy such as Columbine to reoccur. That is why we on this side of the House are somewhat passionate about this issue. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the minister very seriously, once again, whether he will take this matter seriously and the issue of school violence, and give teachers, their assistan ts and the support staff in our schools the kind of help they need by developing protocols for the protection of teachers, support staff and those who work in our schools. Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, we are providing those supports. We are providing a number of different initiatives; Safe Schools Manitoba, and Dr.

Mary Hall has been engaged in a number of community forums and has talked in a number of school divisions as requested to do so by the school divisions. School divisions hold professional development days where they do deal with these issues. We have a lot of school divisions that are sharing the best practice and the most effective practices to address issues that arise as they may, and how it relates to their emergency response plans and to their procedures through the codes of conduct. Again, the leadership comes from the community as well. We work with our partners.

We have established leadership with respect to the Safe Schools Charter making it law. We work with our partners to develop what best and effective practice is to address this issue that has been very important on this side of the House. Wally Fox-Decent Professional Conduct Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour. I assume the minister has had the opportunity to review the

892 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 Workers Compensation Board file as it pertains to my questions of last week. For the minister's information, in late March of 2001, Becky Barrett, the then-Minister of Labour was informed of specific allegations regarding the professional conduct of the WCB chairman, Wally Fox- Decent. These serious allegations included concerns about management interference and corporate governance at the WCB. My question for the minister: Could the minister inform this House if her department ever investigated these very serious allegations? Hon.

Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): I think it is important to clarify, Mr. Speaker, that the WCB is an arm's-length agency that reports to the Minister of Labour. I think it is important to remind members opposite that the Auditor General is conducting an audit into the WCB, and we expect that report to be done soon. When that report is completed, that report will be made public. Mr. Cullen: Quite correctly, the minister is responsible for the Workers Compensation Board. Mr.

Speaker, these allegations were raised by then-president and chief executive officer of the Workers Compensation Boar d so they should have been taken seriously at that time. My question for the minister: Could the minister explain why her department did not investigate these very serious allegations? Ms. Allan: I think it is important to remember that the WCB is an arm's-length agency and it reports, Mr. Speaker, to the minister, not the department. There is a review being done by the Auditor General.

He has all of the information, and I am very pleased to say that any information that the Auditor General required from my office we certainly co- operated. We expect that this report will contain recommendations for the W CB, for my office, and we will take those recommendations very seriously. In Bill 25, we strengthened the governance of the WCB, and we are interested in any recommendations that will provide a stronger governance structure for the WCB. Mr. Cullen: I remind the minister that these allegations were made back in 2001.

It was quite clear that this NDP government did not treat these allegations seriously. Shortly after these issues were raised, the author, then-president and CEO, was fired. The subject of the complaint, Wally Fox- Decent, continued on with his role as chairman of the board. He was also appointed by this NDP government to mediate in a number of high-profile labour disputes as well as chair a number of government committees. My question again for the minister is why did her government ignore these serious allegations, and why did she ignore these red flags. Ms. Allan: Well, thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker, but I just want to remind members opposite that Mr. Wally Fox-Decent, the chair of the Workers Compensation Board, was hired by the previous government. There were five ministers of Labour who worked under Mr. Wall y Fox-Decent, and I just want to remind– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Allan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The office of the Auditor General is conducting a review into the WCB, and we will be very interested in receiving his recommendations if there are any recommendations in that report to strengthen governance. Climate Change Initiative Inclusion of Agriculture Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry. The minister is concerned about the future of the Dow Chemical strawboard plant in Elie. In discussions with the minister, I understand he is frustrated by the fact that agriculture is not included in the Canadian agreements with respect to assigning and trading credits for greenhouse gas emissions. The result is that making straw into board to reduce greenhouse gases instead of burning the straw and creating lots of greenhouse gases does not receive appropriate credit under the Canadian climate change agreements.

Can the Minister of Industry explain why agriculture is not included in the climate change agreement, and why he is having trouble with support to make straw into board instead of the straw being burned and creating problems for Winnipeggers? * (14:10) Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Mr. Speaker, we as a government would work with any company that wishes to be strong, build and grow in Manitoba. I believe that it is important that our government will

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 893 work with the Elie plant or any plant in their economic development. As far as the Kyoto climate change, the Province of Manitoba, the Industry Department, does not control the Kyoto Accord. What we would like to do is work with any company, whether it is th e Dow Bioproducts or any company, to talk about expansions staying here and creating jobs in Manitoba, as we would as per normal arrangement. Mr.

Gerrard: Clearly, agriculture is not adequately in these agreements, and yet it was this government which was involved in negotiating the cross-Canada agreements. Why did the minister's government not work harder to make sure that the situation with straw was included? Will the minister's government, with the Premier (Mr.

Doer) as a co-host of the Climate Leaders' Summit, be making sure that agriculture is included in the summit report due tomorrow, or will the minister's NDP government once again show its disregard for agriculture and for the beneficial effects of the Elie strawboard plant to reduce greenhouse gases? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I was delighted to see the David Suzuki Foundation recently related Manitoba's climate change plan is the best in Canada. Our Power Smart government partnership moved us from ninth to first in the Canadian Energy Efficiency Alliance ranking.

"First with an A in setting the gold standards," says executive director, Peter Love. Last week, Business- Week magazine ranked Manitoba's climate change as No. 1 for regional governments in the world. So, Mr. Speaker, the specific issue of agriculture and carbon sinks, and how carbon sinks are going to be baseline for inclusion or exclusion in the Kyoto Accord, is an international issue which has been very difficult to get the mathematics on so that the baselines for the carbon sinks are properly established so that then th ere can be carbon credits. That work is still going on internationally and the– Mr.

Speaker: Order. Bill 11 Public Consultation Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Mr. Speaker, one of the pillars of this Throne Speech is that bizarre policy in regard to the cross- subsidization of electrical users with natural gas users. There are so many problems I just do not have enough time to be able to expand on just how bizarre this Premier (Mr. Doer) ha s entered into bad public policy. In fact, I am going to indicate to you that Bill 11 is not going to pass between now and the end of this session unless this government is prepared to extend the sitting days, Mr. Speaker.

Unless the government is prepared to extend the sitting days, it will not pass. The question that I have to the minister responsible for this bill is will he ensure to members of this House that any sort of consultation beyond second reading would include rural Manitoba by ensuring that a standing committee will go to Thompson, will go to Brandon to hear just how badly flawed this piece of legislation or crap– Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): As I was saying in my previous answer, Mr. Speaker, first of all, there is no cross-subsidization.

Hydro maintains a balancing– [interjection] Hydro maintains a hedging account in which there is a positive balance of some $22 million currently. We are expecting that that hedging account will provide sufficient resources to smooth the price hike which otherwise would have meant seniors and others on fixed incomes would face an in crease of more than 20 percent in the winter without any chance to provide planning for that.

The intent of this bill is not only to smooth rates so that increases are gradual, it is to provide resources along with Canada so that people's need for heating fuel, propane, natural gas or electricity is reduced by investment in the efficiency of their housing, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: I will take this opportunity to remind members to pick their words carefully when they are either raising an issue or answering a question. There are certain words that are not acceptable in this Chamber. Manitoba Economy Unemployment Rate Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I have noticed in the Fort Garry community that constituents have more opportunities to participate in Manitoba's strong economy. Could the Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines share with the House the latest report on Manitoba's jobless rate? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Today, Mr.

894 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 Speaker, I am pleased to inform all members about the Stats Canada recent survey which said that Manitoba had an unemployment rate of 4.2 percent, a level that has not been seen since April 1976. The city of Winnipeg had a rate of 3.8 percent, and for the members opposite who say that we are not doing a lot about the ad ditional jobs, there are over 7000 new, private-sector jobs created in the last year, and, over the last 5.9 years, Manitoba's labour force has grown by an average annual rate of 6150, nearly three times the record of members opposite.

Safe Schools Codes of Conduct Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education has, on several occasions, indicated that th e codes of conduct were all completed, yet he has refused to provide us with copies of that on numerous occasions. Our own analysis of this shows that, of the 38 school divisions out there, only 17 have fully completed their codes of conduct. Can the minister please explain why he is misleading us with his information? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the codes of conduct, all schools have submitted codes of conduct. That is what I have said in the House. With respect to the codes of conduct, they are not a static document because in the event that there are things that might arise where the codes of conduct need to be changed then they change the code of conduct accordingly. This is done through consultation. This is done through review of the policies and procedures that are put in place, Mr. Speaker. We wanted to make sure that all school divisions had codes of conduct that dealt with a variety of issues, unlike members opposite.

I remember working with a number of teachers back in 1990's on drug and alcohol education and drug and alcohol policies. We could not assume that all schools would have policies on drug and alcohol and response plans for students who might be at risk because of those behaviours. We worked with the teachers. We worked with the communities. The codes of conduct are not a static document. They are documents that change to respond to the different needs. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Volunteerism Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, every day in Manitoba and around the world volunteers and staff working in thousands of voluntary sector organizatio ns are actively involved in making a difference, improving their communities and the lives of others in Canada and abroad. Manitobans are well known throughout the world as people who are willing to volunteer to assist others. This is our way. The voluntary sector is one of the three pillars that constitute Canadian society, together with the public and private sector.

Our quality of life, our economic strength and the vitality of our democratic institutions depend on the vibrancy of these independent sectors and the support they provide to one another. Manitobans working overseas as volunteers have come from all professions and backgrounds touching virtually all aspects of society from social justice, human rights education, environment, health and faith, to arts and culture, sports, recreation, business and government.

Volunteers work alongside counterparts in partner countries, share their knowledge and skills to deliver critical services, advocate for common causes and support sustainable economic and community development worldwide. On their return, they increase awareness of development issues among Manitobans. In this way, volunteers are not only enriching the lives of others, but they are cultivating a way of being in the world that fosters co-operation, education and civic values. The Government of Manitoba values the contribution made by Manitoba volunteers.

International volunteering forges bonds between and among Canadians and their counterparts abroad, creating the basis for meaningful co-operation, action and results around common goals. It fosters the development of social networks with change in Manitoba, Canada and around the world, mobilizing support for and action in regard to common global concerns such as HIV-AIDS, environmental degradation or debt relief. Mr. Speaker, today is International Volunteer Day and throughout Manitoba the extraordinary people who invest their lives in improving the world are being celebrated.

I ask members here today to join me in applauding their efforts and thank them for their commitment. Thank you.

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 895 * (14:20) Family Doctor Week Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): It is my privilege today to announce that the College of Family Physicians of Canada has declared the week of December 5 to 11 as Family Doctor Week in Canada. Every day family doctors diagnose and treat illnesses and injury, promote disease prevention and good health, co-ordinate care and advocate on behalf of their patients.

They not only provide primary medical care but, in many communities, also secondary and tertiary care working from their offices, hospitals, patients' homes, personal care homes and other community facilities. Public surveys repeatedly show that Canadians hold family doctors in high regard for the quality of care they provide and in addition to patient care family doctors are involved in teaching students and residents in medical schools across Canada and in conducting research that is a valuable contribution to the practice of family medicine.

Manitoba owes a debt of gratitude to its family doctors, and it gives me great pleasure to thank our family doctors for the work they do every day and for their contribu tion to Manitoba's health care system. I would like to ask all members of the Legislature to join me in thanking our family doctors and supporting Family Doctor Week in Canada. Mr. Speaker, I know I will not have enough time, but, with leave, I was wondering if I might just table and have it recorded in Hansard the Declaration of Commitment of Our Values which has been signed by the College of Family Physicians in Manitoba.

If I could have leave, if that could just be tabled, I would appreciate it for the record. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Just for clarification, the leave that was granted has been leave to not only table but for that to go into the Hansard. Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Okay. That is for clarification. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

DECLARATION OF COMMITMENT OUR VALUES As family physicians and members of the College of Family Physicians of Canada, we value: the trust placed in us by our patients, our peers and our communities; the privilege of being the personal physicians for the individuals and families who are our patients; the role we play in meeting the changing health care needs of the people of Canada; and the importance of our College motto, "In study lies our strength", which inspires us to maintain the highest standards of practice, teaching, research and life-long learning.

OUR PRINCIPLES As family physicians who care for patients, teach students and conduct research, we are guided by our College's Principles of Family Medicine: The patient-doctor relationship and the needs of our patients are central to all we do. We are skilled clinicians–providing and co-ordinating a broad range of evidence-based health care for individuals and families throughout their lives. We are community-based physicians–responding to patient and community needs through our offices, hospitals, patients' homes and other community settings.

We are a resource to our practice populations– promoting health to prevent illness, providing and explaining health information, collaborating with and facilitating access to other caregivers and advocating for patients throughout the health care system. OUR COMMITMENT On this, the 50th Anniversary of the founding of THE COLLEGE OF FAMILY PHYSICIANS OF CANADA We recommit our

Chapter and its members to the values and principles of the College of Family Physicians of Canada which define the discipline of family medicine. United Nations Climate Change Conference Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, over the past week I was very pleased to attend, on behalf of our province, the United Nations Climate Change Conference and global negotiations happening in Montréal. To my knowledge, I was the only provincial or territorial-elected official at the event at this particular time. Of course, our Premier is out in

896 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 Montréal right now continuing his leadership on this very important global issue. In particular, our Premier will be co-hosting a Climate Leaders' Summit with Québec Premier Jean Charest, happening in the next couple of days, and this event will bring together multiple provinces and states from subnational governments addressing the question of what our subnational government is doing to fix climate change. Manitoba, I am very proud to report, is a global, not just a national, but a global leader in this respect.

Indeed, at the opening plenary session of the United Nations conference, with 189 nations represented, Manitoba was singled out twice by opening speeches for the phenomenal work that is happening in our province.

Some of these issues and opportunities would include clean hydro power developed with little or no flooding and in full partnership with local communities; wind power, another clean source and another 1000 megawatts which has recently been asked for by our government; incredible conservation initiatives are also underway; and, of course, geothermal heat pumps, ethanol and biodiesel all fit the bill as well. Benefits from this will be flowing to all parts of our province not just down in the south. Local, national and international organizations are recognizing our leadership role.

The David Suzuki Foundation, of course, has found that Manitoba's climate change plan is the best in the country. We also have gone from ninth to first in the national energy efficiency rankings. Just this past week, BusinessWeek magazine said our plan for climate change was the best regional government's initiative in the entire world. Mr. Speaker, our government is very proud of its record and equally excited about future opportunities to come. Thank you very much. CFS of Western Manitoba Foundation Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr.

Speaker, I recently had the pleasure of attending a gala dinner hosted by the Child and Family Services of Western Manitoba Foundation. The member from Turtle Mountain also accompanied me to this event. It was a wonderful event and was a great way for the foundation to raise thousands of dollars for a truly worthy cause. It is amazing to think that this community-based organization has been helping to serve the Westman area for over 100 years.

The CFS of Western Manitoba Foundation has now grown to include 80 permanent staff, and they champion the causes of helping deal with issues of child abuse, neglect, sexual abuse, adoption, employment and many others. They offer an indispensable service to the community, and they deserve great thanks for doing it. The keynote speaker at the gala dinner was a truly inspiring individual, Mr. Alvin Law. Mr. Law was born in the early 1960s at a time when the drug thalidomide was prescrib ed to help expecting mothers deal with morning sickness.

As we now know, this drug caused birth deformities in more than 13 000 children, and Mr. Law was one of those affected. The effects of this drug was Mr. Law was born without his arms and doctors predicted his quality of life would be severely limited. I am pleased to say that Mr. Law has conquered his adversities to become an inspiring story and a great success, now speaking professionally to 150 000 people every year. I would like to take this opportunity to say what a wonderful event was hosted by the Child and Family Services of Western Manitoba Foundation.

The gala dinner both raised a great deal of funds for a worthy cause and proved to be great entertainment for all who attended. My thanks go out to all those involved in staging this event and Mr. Law for delivering the keynote address. I wish the foundation continued success into the future. Thank you. Children of the Earth School Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I rise to recognize the exceptional efforts of a high school in the North End. That high school is Children of the Earth School.

Their commitment to excellence in education and to the Aboriginal communities of Winnipeg has made this high school one of the 10 best in Canada according to a recent Maclean's magazine report. It is well known that Winnipeg has the highest urban Aboriginal population in Canada and that Aboriginal people have been historically disadvantaged. This shameful history barred many Aboriginals from achieving the successes, assessing the education opportunities and realizing the goals that were opened to others.

However, through the hard work of schools such as Children of the Earth and people such as Principal Lorne Belmore and Guidance Counsellor Pat Mousseau these historic barriers are being broken down. In such an

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 897 environment as Children of the Earth School, students can rise to the challenge and meet the high expectations placed on them. For this, Maclean's recognized in their report the exceptional nature of this school. With a 200-plus student body, nearly all of whom are of Aboriginal ancestry, the school places special emphasis on instilling pride in the heritage of the students and in the school itself. The students follow the normal curriculum that is supplemented by cultural, linguistic and musical components.

While Children of the Earth School is not a language immersion school, there is a language requirement for all of the four years of the program to ensure the preservation of their languages. The curriculum also ensures op portunities are there to develop a sense of pride in being Aboriginal. This unique school, with its unique curriculum, is a shining success. Fully 75 percent of its graduates go on to post-secondary education, becoming contributing citizens, mentors and leaders of tomorrow. Mr.

Speaker, I ask that this House recognize the incredible efforts made by the students and teachers of the Children of the Earth School and congratulate them on being named one of the 10 best high schools in Canada. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris, on a point of order? Is it a point of order? Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would like to correct the record from last week. On December 1, I made a private member's statement regarding the Sanford Collegiate senior boys' volleyball team winning the provincial championships.

I missed one team member, and I would like to add his name to Hansard. His name is Marcus Wiens. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The point of order raised by the honourable Member for Morris, she does not have a point of order, but we will let her put that name on the record. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please call Bill 11 and then the rest of the bills listed for debate on second readings, to be followed by second reading Bill 19. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 11–The Winter Heating Cost Control Act Mr.

Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 11, The Winter Heating Cost Control Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach). What is the will of the House? Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Russell? [Agreed] It is also standing in the name of the honourable Member for Elmwood, who has six minutes remaining. * (14:30) Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to put my comments on Bill 11. I know at the outset that the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was quite worked up about this bill.

In fact, he is threatening to keep us here through Christmas and beyond if things do not go his way. As we have told him many, many times, all he has to do is elect a few more members, and he will have things going his way. But until that day occurs, he has to content himself with the situation as it is. Which brings me to the point about the Liberal Party's position over the years on hydro development in this province.

You know, 20 years ago, when the previous Howard Pawley government started up the Limestone project, which had been mothballed by the Tories of Sterling Lyon, the NDP government fired up the project again and proceeded to build it one billion dollars under budget. The Liberal leader of the day called the project lemonstone, ridiculed the province, went throughout the province referring to it as lemonstone. So that is the long-standing legacy of the Liberal Party to hydro development in this province. For example, Mr. Speaker, in Montréal, there is a United Nations Climate Change Conference going on.

The Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer) was there last week. As a matter of fact, Manitoba has been recognized as a leader in this area. For example, the David Suzuki Foundation, in October 2005, said, "Manitoba's climate change plan is the best of all the provincial and territorial plans." In fact, the Canadian Energy Efficiency Alliance , December '04, said that "Manitoba, which ranked first, with an A, is setting the gold standard for the rest of the country." So,

898 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 clearly, these comments bode well for the direction that this province is going. For example, Manitoba is Canada's leader in energy efficiency. We have one of the largest wind farms in Canada, the 99-megawatt farm at St. Leon. We plan to increase the production of wind power over the next number of years to the 1000-megawatt range. We are the hub of geothermal activity in Canada. We have 30 percent of Canada's heat pumps installed, and we have trained more than half of the country's installers. I want to point out to the Member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) that, in fact, when the Waverley West development gets under way next year, we are going to see an explosion of geothermal development because that is the kind of area that you install geothermal heat pumps in, is new development and new construction because its costs are prohibitive trying to instal it in existing installations. We are, Mr. Speaker, planning to build a new generation of hydro development.

To the Member for Inkster, he should know that the recent agreement with Ontario will see hydro exports replace coal- generated greenhouse gases in Ontario at a rate equivalent to taking 500 000 vehicles off the road. We are also the leading advocate for an east-west power grid, which was a vision that has been supported by this government, which was hardly talked about prior to this government forming office. We are also pursuing a hydrogen centre of expertise in this province, which is the first of its kind in Manitoba. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, I had to note, and I did not realize this, but that Manitoba Hydro has recently installed a hydrogen electrolyzer at its Dorsey station on the outskirts of Winnipeg. This is the world's first hybrid internal combustion engine bus that has been made by Manitoba's New Flyer Industries and tested with fuelling technology by another Manitoba firm, Kraus Global. So the Member for Inkster would do well to pay attention to this information.

I also referred him the other day, when he was making these outlandish allegations, these grassy knoll conspiracy theories, you know, I say to him that, rather than staking out that grassy knoll, he should be helping his constituents by informing them of the programs that Manitoba Hydro offers to them, his constituents.

Manitoba offers a huge amount of programs, and he would be making much better use of his time and performing a productive function by sending out information about how people can access these programs, rather than trying to stir people up on all sorts of other issues that he jumps back and forth from. But I have Manitoba Hydro documents here which are available to him on the Power Smart program. The date on it was November 1. It was only a month and a few days old.

If the member would take the time to look at the information, he would see that, in fact, a high efficient furnace, the cost of heating is $1,018 a year and that the cost of an electric furnace heating with baseboards is $1,096, and, in fact, the better choice in that would be geothermal which would be only $439 a year. But Hydro goes on to point out to people that, in fact, while this may be the case, people are not going to spend huge amounts of money to upgrade their electrical panels in their houses. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, I, too, wish to speak to Bill 11, which should more appropriately be named "little socialist playing with big Crown corporations." I can remember back in the dirty eighties of the Howard Pawley administration– and I can just see the whole Legislature cringe when we start bringing up the Howard Pawley days–that was a time when we saw socialist engineering at its worst. That is where the Howard Pawley government–in fact, there are a few from the benches left today that were involved with that government, and what they did was that they started to play with big Crown corporations.

I can remember Manitoba Public Insurance corporation, and it was the same kind of thing as we see with Bill 11. What they tried to do was loot all the money, which they did, and try to hide the rising costs of MPI, of insurance. What happened was there were a couple of years of severe claims against the corporation which then brought in a very, very dramatic increase in MPI rates, in fact so high that there was an incredible outcry from the public in regard to the rise in the rates that precipitated the absolute collapse, the crumbling of the NDP government of the day, the Howard Pawley government.

It was not just MPI that was the problem. They went through Crown corporation after Crown corporation and basically systematically bankrupted each one of them by getting involved and micro-

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 899 managing the corporations. I was a student at the time at university and wa tched from afar as the Pawley-Doer government mismanaged issues. For those who remember MTX where they had contracts in Saudi Arabia where they allowed or disallowed certain individuals to work for the corporation, there were all kinds of mismanagement. There were all kinds of poor, poor, poor decisions that were made, and the Howard Pawley government mismanaged each one of these issues.

Certainly, you can see that the members of the former Pawley government that still sit on the benches are very sensitive on this issue because they are heckling in a dramatic way and–[interjection] Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Elmwood, on a point of order. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Speaker, the member should know and understand that it was Don Orchard, former minister in the Tory government, who actually got us involved in MTX in the first place, signed all the documents, got us involved in the sands of Saudi Arabia where we proceeded to lose this money and then a couple of years later came around and tried to claim credit for uncovering this big disaster that he helped create in the first place. * (14:40) Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Elmwood, he does not have a point of order.

It is a dispute over the facts, and I will remind members once again, the purpose of points of order are to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule or departure of Manitoba practices, not to be used for debate. * * * Mr. Schuler: Thank you very much for that wise ruling, Mr. Speaker. The sensitivity is quite high on that side, clearly, because we can see where the bungling and mismanagement is always part of that NDP socialist cycle that takes place and which will eventually bring us to the debate on Bill 11.

We saw the mismanagement of Manitoba Telephone System, which was basically completely and totally bankrupted under the Howard Pawley regime and the socialist members on the other side. They crippled the Crown corporation to the point that it basically was worth less than the debt that it was carrying. It was, in real terms, bankrupt. It was basically worth less by the time the Howard Pawley NDP socialists, the Howard Pawley-Doer government was finished with the corporation.

It is a fear when we sit on this side and we watch the Howard Pawley-Doer government type of politicians playing with Crown corporations, Crown corporations that under the Filmon government were brought back into shape. I looked at the Workers Compensation. I can remember when I got into business with my little retail store, we were paying over $1,200 in Workers Compensation rates because of the Howard Pawley- Doer government mismanaging of the Workers Compensation Board.

It was shameful, really, because why would a little retail operation which had no claims, never would unless somebody robbed the store and hurt an individual and thus they would go onto Workers Compensation, but basically there was no reason. By the time the 1999 election came around, my retail operation was paying not $1,200, but less than $200 for Workers Compensation.

That is how efficiently and how properly and how good the Filmon government was able to run the Crown corporations, that was responsive to business, that responded to business interests, because you have to remember that more than $1,000 was a direct hit to the bottom line of retail. I give the ministers who helped to run that Crown corporation a lot of credit. It was the Howard Pawley-Doer government that had almost bankrupted the Workers Compensation Board, and it took a lot of work, took lots of work, to get it back on its feet.

Now we can see it has not been but six years and again, Workers Compensation Board, back into mismanagement, back at the Auditor's office, back on the front pages of newspapers with scandal and whatnot, because of the mismanagement of the Howard Pawley-Doer government style of administration of Crown corporations. We saw during the 1990s, where we had that can-do attitude brought back to Manitoba where Crown corporations were seen as servants, where they were seen as servan ts to the public and not servants to the Doer government, to the NDP. That is the difference in philosophy.

In fact, I can remember sitting with former Premier Filmon and he said he always wanted to ensure that every Crown corporation had a contingency fund that would allow the corporation to go for three years without excessive rate increases.

900 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 As an engineer, as somebody who was very interested in the finances and the proper funding of Crown corporations, the servants of the people, that they would serve the public in such a way that they would not be faced with a catastrophic rate increase if there was a bad year, they were supposed to survive three years without substantial heavy rate increases. What have we seen as of late?

We have seen the Howard Pawley-style Doer government come forward and, Crown corporation by Crown corporation, has looted all of the Crown corporations of their contingency funds. All the savings accounts are being looted by the Ho ward Pawley-style Doer government and now we have in front of us Bill 11.

In fact, I suspect the day will come when, in fact, it is an argument that I have made to a lot of people, I believe that we are getting close to the point, after this Howard Pawley-style of Doer government, that by the time they are done I will call for the nationalization of Manitoba Hydro where we will have to struggle and fight to buy back our oil patch, our hydro patch, from all the lending institutions which the NDP, the Doer government, has sold off right under our feet.

We will be at the point where the debt load of Manitoba Hydro will be so high that we will not own it, the lending institutions will own it. That is how far this socialist government will have gotten Manitoba Hydro. They are finagling and playing with the Crown corporations. The servants of the people are being so bankrupted, so maligned, that we will, in the end, not own them. In fact, they will be owned by others, by financial institutions, and that is a record, that is a historical cycle, that we see under the Howard Pawley-style of Doer government when it comes to Crown corporations. Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair I believe that we have a great need in this province for strong Crown corporations. We should have Crown corporations th at are there, that are strong, that are servants to the people and not servants to the Doer government. They should be viewed as being a service provider to the province and not an instant teller machine of the Doer government, and that is the way that this government has gone through policy development of Crown corporations.

We have seen it before when the Howard Pawley-style Doer government, first thing they get in, they want to start cleaning out MPI's contingency fund and funding everything but what the Crown corporation was supposed to do and we have seen it consistently done. We have seen them clean out the contingency fund of the Workers Compensation Board and, for the first time in years, we have actually seen Workers Compensation Board rates increasing. That is because of the Howard Pawley-style Doer government approach to dealing with Crown corporations.

We are very co ncerned on this side of the House that the asset, the servant to the people that MPI became, that provided an amazing, amazing service to us as a public, where rates were going down, where it was very well-protected by contingency funds, we have seen where this government has done a great disservice to MPI and to the public. By the time this government is done we will see MPI back into those huge increases because of mismanagement. Now we have a new scheme by the Howard Pawley-style Doer government where they are going to take the ratepayers from Manitoba Hydro and have them subsidize Ralph Klein.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, you heard me correctly. I will put it on the record one more time so that you understand; it is not bad enough that we are the toast of the financial institutions around the globe because of the heavy debt load we have on Manitoba Hydro, that we are basically selling our birthright out from under Manitobans. Under this Doer government. we are selling Manitoba Hydro to all financial institutions across the world. If that is not bad enough, now the Doer government has come up with an even better scheme of helping to fund surpluses in Alberta. That is just the most unbelievable thing.

When I heard it the first time I actually thought that the government had misspoken itself, that what they are actually going to do– An Honourable Member: Trying to help your buddy Ralph. * (14:50) Mr. Schuler: Members opposite say they are going to help their buddy Ralph but, Mr. Speaker, Alberta and Ralph Klein do not need the members opposite's help. They are flush with cash in Alberta. They do not need another $135-million subsidy. What we should be doing is building a Manitoba Hydro that is strong and that serves Manitobans.

Instead, what we are doing, instead what the Doer NDP government is doing is it is going to take $135 million from Hydro ratepayers and it is going to walk

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 901 it across Saskatchewan and it is going to go to the throne of King Ralph and it is going to say, "Here you go, Premier of Alberta. Here, you need $135 million more from Manitobans. Here you go." This is how we are going to run our province. Instead of building Manitoba, this NDP government, this Doer government is going to help to build Alberta. I believe it is bad public policy to be making and it falls in line with what we have seen over the years.

It is the Howard Pawley-style of Doer government in dealing with Crown corporations and we are clearly concerned. Bill 11, which was introduced November 16, will prohibit any further increases in natural gas prices for customers of Centra Gas during the '05-06 winter heating season and allows the government to limit such price increases until '06-07. Oh, wait a minute. So that is only until 2007. What would be happening in that time period? [interjection] Oh, the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) seems to know the answer. What would that be? [interjection] Oh, a provincial election. No, Mr.

Speaker, say it ain't so. Say it ain't so that this could maybe have some provincial politics interwoven into it where this Howard Pawley-style Doer government could actually be trying to finagle with public money their re-election. No. Could that be it? That is even more scary than the fact that they are emulating their grise éminence , the former Premier Howard Pawley.

Not just are they going down that wrong path of playing with Crown corporations, they are now going to try to play this in such a way that it helps them out in the next provincial election, and that will be done on the backs of the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro. To the tune of $135 million, they will try to buy their next election and that is very unfortunate. That is very unfortunate because, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Hydro is there for all. It is supposed to be a Crown corporation that serves the entire province.

Whether from the furthest reaches of up north all the way down to the corners in southern Manitoba, whether you go east or west, it should be a Crown corporation that serves all of Manitoba. I view it as the Hydro patch, the equivalence of the oil patch in Alberta.

In fact, I would say to this House that long after the oil patch is gone, Manitoba should still have its Hydro patch, but if we go along with this Howard Pawley-style Doer government which is selling off the Crown corporation to big lenders in and around North America and giving huge subsidies to Ralph Klein in Alberta, if we continue down that path, we will not have a Crown corporation for Manitobans. It will be a Crown corporation for everybody but Manitobans. It will no longer be there to help serve the best interests of Manitobans.

It will be there to serve big financial institutions and King Ralph in Alberta, whom this government seems to be so bent and determined to be funding. I look to the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer) who has over the years had a reputation of being an environmentalist, but I read a letter of his to the editor over the weekend and I am deeply saddened. I now understand why the Green Party is getting such traction in Manitoba. The Green Party is going to eventually step into the vacuum that the NDP has left on the environmental side.

How unfortunate it is that this member from Wolseley who has fought for and stood up and championed environmental issues is now turning his back on these very individuals. In fact, there is that great premier, one of the grise éminence of the NDP party, the Right Honourable Ed Schreyer, who called this a terrible idea and said it is wrong-headed. It is the Right Honourable Ed Schreyer who said that this is bad for the environment, and the Member for Wolseley, instead of saying, "I am with Ed," is opposed to what the fo rmer premier says, an individual of great knowle dge on these issues.

In fact, it was the Right Honourable Ed Schreyer who came out in front of this. I know members opposite will not necessarily take it from this humble servant, but they should at least listen to what their former premier has to say on this issue. He said that he felt this was a very, very bad idea. I think one should quote exactly. Schreyer calls the plan "perverse." Those are his words, not mine, and did so in the Winnipeg Free Press on November 18.

He also called it, and I am quoting here for the Member for Wolseley, "the most retrograde step the government could possible take." He is arguing against the environmental implications of a non-renewable energy source subsidizing a renewable one. That is unfortunate. I thought for sure that the formerly green, environmentally friendly member from Wolseley would have been heard, like say, for instance, the members from Radisson and Transcona were heard on the new hog slaughtering plant. Now, I disagree with those two members, but I understand that they have issues, and they stood up

902 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 for their constituents. In fact, I indicated to those proponents of the hog slaughtering plant that they did have the wrong location, they should move it about five miles east, which would be a far superior location. I would take it in my constituency any day, but, alas, they chose that location. But the members from Radisson and Transcona, they stood up on conviction and they let their voices be heard. Where is the member from Wolseley? He has become the apologist, Mr. Speaker.

If you have not heard anything so outrageous, he stabbed the environment in the back, even when the grise éminence of the NDP party stood up and said, "the most retrograde step the government could possibly take." They are the Right Honourable Ed Schreyer's words who says that this is a bad idea. The Member for Wolseley, the one who used to have credentials in the environment movement, turned his back and went so far as to stab the environmental movement in the back. It is amazing. The voters from Wolseley sent this member to change the Legislature, and what happened?

The Legislature changed the member from Wolseley. They sent an environmentalist here to this Chamber, and they got back an apologist for the wrong side. This member is going to face, I suspect, a Green candidate and is going to have to answer for that. He will have to answer for how he stabbed the environmental movement in the back, and that is just very unfortunate. In fact, I cannot imagine that the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer) can now shake David Suzuki's hand and look him in the eye.

That will be a sad moment, a sad moment when the Member for Wolseley will go up to David Suzuki and will hang his head, put his hand out and see if David Suzuki will even acknowledge him after that back stab that was given to the David Suzukis of the world, the environmentalists. * (15:00) Mr. Speaker, this bill is wrought with all kinds of land mines, all kinds of ironies for the NDP, and it is unfortunate. It is unfortunate because, as the former premier said about the cross-subsidization, "It is perverse," he called it.

What the government is going to do is they are going to either raise Manitoba Hydro rates, which now they have backed down on that one. They cower in fear out of all the poor decisions they make so they are cowering on that. But, they are going to take money out of Manitoba Hydro and they are going to put it into an account. Then they are going to subsidize natural gas rates so that the gas rates do not increase and unfortunately, for Manitobans, if gas rates continue to increase, because it is a non-renewable resource, eventually the price will continue to increase.

What happens after that rate freeze or cross-subsidy comes to an end? What happens? Do they then raise hydro rates even more and how are they going to do this? I know, of course, that will be after a provincial election. Their motto is do not worry about it after the provincial election, or the Conservatives will and it will more than likely be the Conservatives who will have to deal with this issue. It is a real concern to us on this side of the House because, really, they are going to create a slush fund.

Any time a left-wing government, a socialist government, or, in this case, the Howard Pawley-style Doer government, starts creating slush funds within a corporation, you then know that there is the potential for serious problems. I say this for the good of all members, and there are some young, idealistic members on that side who smile brightly and clap and cheer like the trained seals that they are and, you know, it is cute to see. However, I warn these young, idealistic members, look at history. When NDP governments start creating slush funds in corporations, look out, it is a dangerous time.

It is what undoes NDP governments. Look at what happened to the Howard Pawley-Doer government back in the eighties. They just could not keep it all straight. They just could not keep the lid on all of it, and finally, it blew up on them and they were faced with a substantial defeat. I know that I, with many of the young members on the other side, where there are young members in this House, we do not remember all the ins and outs of the Howard Pawley-Doer government days, but we are clearly concerned and, I have a feeling, so are members on the opposite side.

They are concerned with this legislation because it is also a problem for the rural areas. Many, many areas, northern Manitoba, outside of the Perimeter Highway, there are some towns, given, that do have gas, but there are 550 000 Manitoba Hydro users who do not have Centra Gas. That is clearly a problem. It is bad for the agriculture; it is bad for the North. This is a bad decision. Any time socialists start to play with Crown corporations, it is a sad day for Manitoba. We saw that from the Howard Pa wley-Doer government days. This is bad legislation. It scares Manitobans. It scares Hydro users.

It scar es all of us. It scares environmentalists. It scares the Right Honourable Ed

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 903 Schreyer. Even he cannot stomach what is going on. He calls it perverse. He calls it retrograde. I would suggest that the NDP members, the young members on the other side like myself, should stand with me and others and say, "I am with Ed on this issue. We should rethink this and look at it a different way to deal with this issue." Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Any other speakers? Bill 11, will it continue standing in the name of the honourable Member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach).

Agreed? [Agreed] Bill 4–The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: Resuming debate on second reading, Bill 4, The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la manutention et le transport des merchandises dangereuses, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). Stand? Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Stand. Bill 12–The Highways and Transportation Amendment Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: Resume debate on Bill 12, The Highways and Transportation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la voirie et le transport, standing in the name of the Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). Stand? Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Deputy Speaker: It will continue standing in the name of the Member for Pembina. Bill 13–The Conservation Districts Amendment Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: Resume debate on the motion of the honourable Minister for Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton), Bill 13, The Conservation Districts Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les districts de conservation. It is still open. Open debate on this one. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the honourable Member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 15–The Emergency Measures Amendment Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade (Mr. Smith), Bill 15, The Emergency Measures Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les mesures d'urgence, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Stand. The bill will continue, and remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina. Bill 16–The Corporations Amendment Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), Bill 16, The Corporations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sure les corporations, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). Stand? Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The bill will continue, and remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. Bill 17–The Securities Amendment Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), Bill 17, The Securities Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les valeurs mobilières, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). What is the wish of the House on this one, Bill 17? Stand? An Honourable Member: Pass. Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Stand. The bill will continue, and remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina. Bill 18–The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Countermeasures Against Impaired Drivers and Other Offenders) Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), Bill 18, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Countermeasures Against Impaired Drivers and

904 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 Other Offenders); Loi modifiant le Code de la route (contre-mesures visant les personnes ayant conduit avec les facultés affaiblies et d'autres contrevenants), standing in the honourable Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). * (15:10) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I did want to put a few words on the record in regard to Bill 18 before it ultimately goes to committee. Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that I have noticed over the last two and a half, three years is that the Minister of Justice tends to look at issues in which he believes there is fairly decent ground support, public support, on certain initiatives and quite often he will, in fact, act on some of them. This is one of those pieces of legislation in which the Minister of Justice has seen fit to take some action on, and, if you read through the bill, as I have, you will see that it is not really a controversial bill.

You know, heaven forbid the Minister of Justice bringing in a bill that might cause a little bit of controversy. Here we have a bill that, in essence, I believe, addresses a concern in regard to drinking and driving. We all know in terms of what the public perception is of drinking and driving, it is something that is just not tolerated.

Many years ago, I think that there was a change of attitude, and today what we see is that youth, to all of our communities, all of our social economic strata of individuals, say, "Hey, look this is not something that is good today, to drink and drive," and I say youth because, you know, I really pay tribute to those who demonstrated the leadership where we saw incorporated into our schools, in particular, our high schools, this whole safe grad concept. I really believe that it is initiatives like that that ultimately have led to a change of the mindset. It was not that long ago, Mr.

Speaker, where individuals would be, whether they are at work or at a party or a social gathering in which they would consume a great deal of alcohol, get behind the wheel of a car, whether they had children in the car or minors in the car was absolutely irrelevant, they would get in the car and they would drive. That was something that was happening on a regular basis. You compare that to today, and you will see that there is a 180-degree turn in terms of what public perception on that issue really is. Mr. Speaker in the Chair I think that is wonderful.

That is the type of thing in which, if there are things that we can do inside this Legislature to promote that new mindset, Mr. Speaker, that we should do it, that there is no reason why we should not support initiatives that continue in the promoting of that mindset. That is what I see with this particular bill. The minister is attempting to reinforce that drinking and driving, that there is a consequence if you drink and drive.

When we look at individuals, whether they are young offenders or they are indivi duals that receive charges down in stateside that, in fact, the suspensions and the consequences would, in fact, be taken into account and this legislation enables that to occur. For that reason, I think that it is safe to say that we support this bill in terms of going to committee, but I would like to challenge the Minister of Justice to start dealing with some of the more difficult issues in our province dealing with justice.

I know I have had the opportunity to ask a couple of questions in regard to what is the department, what is the minister, doing to deal with some of the problems, some real problems, in our society. In particular, I am going to make reference to the North End because it is an area in which I live and travel through every day, Mr. Speaker, and I am growing more and more concerned that these are neighbourhoods that continue to deteriorate in many ways.

I think that there is some correlation in terms of income and in crime and poverty and dysfunctional families, and this government has not been successful at dealing with those issues. As much as we like to see legislation of this nature, Mr. Speaker, I think that the minister needs to give more attention to some of those issues that are really having a negative impact on our communities. I just do not see that presence, at least in North End Winnipeg, and I suspect that one might be able to articulate that that is the case throughout the province. There are many examples of it, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, a lot of those criminals, if I can put it that way, the ones who are stealing the cars, you will find that they quite often have been drinking or they are on some sort of drug, whether it is crystal meth or cocaine or whatever it might be. I think that more and more we are seeing residents in fear in terms of walking in the communities in which they live. I think government needs to do more about that. You know, alcohol is one thing. What about other drugs that are out there, Mr. Speaker, that are

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 905 causing serious problems within our police force, being able to support them in terms of providing the resources necessary to identify drugs or individuals who are taking drugs or consuming drugs and driving? I know I have had the opportunity, as I am sure other members have, to talk to some of our finest officers, and they are growing concerned, more and more concerned about their abilities to be able to have the resources necessary to attack those who are taking some form of drugs, and then getting behind the steering wheel.

So it is easy for us to hit issues like alcohol and driving because it is pretty much straightforward. We know how breathalysers work, and what we see is a government that is wanting to expand in that area, but I do believe that we need to be more aggressive in other areas, Mr. Speaker. That is where we would call upon the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) to do something, because at the end of the day when we look at the actual number of people, let us say in this piece of legislation, that will be dealt with, we are talking about a relatively small number, but it is an important message still to get out.

It reminds me, you know, of a bill that we had last session. Members might recall the bill where additional court actions would be taken if you have a child in your car and you have been drinking and driving, Mr. Speaker. Again, how does one oppose something of that nature? It is legislation which, yes, makes a lot of sense; let us do it. Having said that, there were some flaws to it, issues of, for example, if you are a drunk driver and you are going over Salter and you hit another vehicle, there could be a child in there.

So why is it that that driver is treated differently than the driver who is intoxicated who has a child passenger or an elderly infirm individual or someone with Alzheimer's or other sorts of medical conditions? These are the types of things which the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh) much like today has something and he says, "Well, this is where I maybe have that press conference, put out that release, show that we are being proactive," but at the end of the day, even though it does reinforce a relatively positive mindset that goes against drinking and driving, it is not as substantial as the minister tries to imply, Mr. Speaker. In fact, I could argue th at, well, how does this bill or how does the legislation take into consideration immigrants, Mr. Speaker? We get thousands of immigrants that come to our province every year.

I suspect some of those might even have some sort of an alcohol-related incident back in their home country. This legislation does not address that issue. * (15:20) Again, I would argue that maybe that issue is just as big, maybe even possibly bigger, Mr. Speaker, than what this bill is attempting to do. Who knows? Maybe next year the Minister of Justice might bring in some legislation to deal with that.

I think that we have to look at the bigger picture here, as opposed to trying to do things in a piecemeal way and then almost like challenge the opposition, "You know, here is a piece of legislation; let us see you vote against this legislation," and then put it before us. Well, Mr. Speaker, I, for one, do not have a problem with supporting this legislation because, as I say, at the end of the day, it helps and it supports a mindset which is very positive toward anti-drinking and driving. So how can someone not support it?

But, at the same time, I think that there is a responsibility on individuals like myself to express to the government that they need to do more, that this is not good enough, Mr. Speaker.

If the government really wanted to be able to take more of a proactive approach, whether it is driving in general and other substances that are being used and then a person getting behind the wheel, or just dealing with the broader issue of crime, as the Minister of Justice, I would like to see more legislation or more support or resources, enforcement of dealing with some of the situations that we have today, some of those things that are affecting far more people. The government really is not doing the types of things that it could be doing. Today is a good example of that.

For example, we had the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) reinforce the police officers again, Mr. Speaker, and I do not know how many times we have heard about the police officers, whether it is the Minister of Justice, Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) or the Premier (Mr. Doer) of ou r province. Dealing with some of these issues takes a lot more than just making a general platitude that you will repeat year after year. Eventually, yes, there will be some more police officers but, in good part, the ones that they are talking about today are more phantom police officers.

I think that is the terminology that the member from Steinbach was using. I think that there is merit to that particular statement, in the sense that we are not seeing the increases as the government

906 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 tries to give the image or the impression that they are acting on, and we see more police officers. So, Mr. Speaker, I stand today in support of this bill going to committee. The reason, as I say, for it is because I believe a majority of the constituents, a vast majority of the constituents which I represent, realize that it is wrong to drink and drive, and that is the bottom line.

When we have legislation before us that does anything in terms of reinforcing that mindset, I think that there is an obligation on all of us to speak in favour of and, ultimately, allow it to go to committee, and if th ere are individuals that provide input at that stage, that would be wonderful. But, again, I put the challenge out to the Minister of Justice to do more at dealing in terms of some of those grassroots issues that have to be dealt with that he is ultimately responsible for, Mr. Speaker, because I truly do believe things are, in fact, getting worse.

They have not been getting better over the last number of years, and until we have a government that is prepared to actually take action, and some of those actions might not be popular, but it is the right thing to do. That is where you look to a government to demonstrate leadership and to do what is right, not just to do what is popular. I will give them full marks in terms if this is and will be a popular bill in this sense, and I suspect that you will find very few, if any, that would not support it. With those few words, we are prepared to see the bill go to committee. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 18, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Countermeasures Against Impaired Rivers and Other Offenders). Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] SECOND READINGS Bill 19–The Agri-Food and Rural Development Council Act Mr. Speaker: Second reading, Bill 19, The Agri- Food and Rural Development Council Act. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr.

Struthers), that Bill 19, The Agri-Food and Rural Development Council Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of the House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill, and I table the message. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: There is a message from the Lieutenant-Governor, and it has also been tabled. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to move this new piece of legislation to establish an Agri-Food and Rural Development Council, which will act as an advisory council to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives. Mr.

Speaker, this new council will provide a think-tank type of forum for me and for any future ministers to consult with and to envision the long- term needs of rural and northern Manitobans and, also, agriculture producers, the secondary food sector and other rural industries. The council's mandate is consistent with our government's commitment to meaningful consultation with stakeholders. It is also important to use these insights to enhance the departmental long-term strategy approaches for both opportunities and challenges that are out there. Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you that I look to this group for their innovative ideas and options that help us build Manitoba's competitive advantage in agriculture and the agri-food sector and to work towards a vibrant rural community. The council members that will be appointed will examine agricultural and rural economics and explore new ideas for economic growth and partnership. Council's ideas and recommendations will be brought forward and will help inform the department on long-term strategic plans.

To accomplish these goa ls, appointees to the council will be Manitobans who have demonstrated collectively, collaborativel y to be able to think outside the box. They will have breadth of understanding for long-term opportunities and challenges. But I can tell you that this will not be a lobby group and it will not have formal representation of organizations. Mr. Speaker, as you look at how agriculture has changed and how the rural communities have changed, there are many oppor tunities there. But, in reality, some people are moving forward and some are not.

When you look at where this government has gone on wind energy, ethanol energy, biodiesels, the nutraceutical industry, ther e are many opportunities.

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 907 But I believe that there are people who can think outside the box and even help us further advance and take advantage of our many natural products that we have in this province and help to have further economic growth both in rural and northern Manitoba. So I look very forward to working with this council. I heard someone say that this should have happened sooner and, indeed, it probably should have. But, Mr.

Speaker, I want to say that this act also repeals The Agricultural Productivity Council Act, which first received Royal Assent in 1966, but was re-enacted in 1987 to comply with the requirements of all legislation to be in both French and English. Initially, The Agricultural Productivity Council Act which was put in place, I look at the members opposite and wonder why, when they were in government, they did not act on a piece of legislation that would have allowed them to put in place a council that would advise on agriculture production. This council is much broader, Mr. Speaker.

That is why we have had to, rather than just try to amend the act, we are bringing in a new act because this council will not only advise on primary production, it will also advise on value-added, which has been a primary goal of this government, to increase value- added production and all of the other new initiatives that are out there. So I hope that members opposite will recognize the importance of this piece of legislation and will support it. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. * (15:30) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I did want to put a few words on the record with regard to Bill 19.

You know, I do not necessarily share all the enthusiasm that the minister has expressed in regard to Bill 19. The biggest concern that I have right off, Mr. Speaker, is the make-up of the committee. This minister or this government has made the decision that there is an unlimited number of people that could be appointed to this council, and they are all appointments from the minister. There is no indication or no guarantee of appointments from organizations that are out there in rural Manitoba.

Just given the importance of an advisory council, if it is going to be a legitimate advisory council to the department, one would think that it would have some sort of an appointment procedure that would ensure that a person's qualifications would be taken into consideration to ensure that the representation would, in fact, be diverse. We have some excellent, excellent groups that are out there. I know, whether it is myself or the Leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party spends–in particular, I know the leader of my party, Mr.

Speaker, spends a phenomenal amount of time meeting with, going over correspondence from the many different rural, agricultural-based groups that are out there. I do not understand, and I would ask, and I would have liked to have heard comments from the minister responsible for this bill to explain why it is that we inside this Legislature should allow her to determine everyone that is going to sit on this advisory committee. Well, I have a difficult time with that.

You know, in essence, what she is going to do is she is going to say, "Well, I want these eight people," or she could say, "I want these 18 people." There is no set number either, Mr. Speaker. In terms of how often they are going to meet, well, again, it will be up to the co-chairs. Who are the co-chairs? Well, those are appointed by the minister. So you have this advisory council that is go ing to be there to advise the administration, and it seems to me that the minister has left this council to be very wide open to being very, very political.

I do not believe that that is in the long-term best interest of the department. I believe that we should have some trust and value our many different community groups that are out there that have competent and capable individuals that would have been just as qualified as the Minister of Agriculture's (Ms. Wowchuk) choices and would have been better to be on the committee. It would have given more legitimacy, I would argue, to the council. I know that, Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that I would do if there was a change in government is I would be reviewing this particular council, and I would be saying, "Why is it that these people make up this committee?" First of all, you have got to find out how many there are. Are these going to be just nothing much than a bunch of New Democrats? We do not know. We do not know in terms of what sort of qualifications they are going to have. We do know that they will receive some sort of an honorarium. I do believe that there will be a great deal of political patronage to it.

I believe that the association with the political party will have more clout than the type of work that they have.

908 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 You know, to a certain degree, in today's democratic society, you are going to see some patronage, Mr. Speaker. But what I object to, whether it is provincial or federal, is excessive abuse of patronage. This is something that we have concerns with. What we are saying is that we have one board or one council that is being created by this government, and every one of those appointments is going to, in fact, be from this minister. Why? What do you have against organizations like Keystone and the many other rural organizations that are out there?

If this council is supposed to be advising the Ministry of Agriculture, why would we not enable those rural, in particular, communities, those volunteers, in part, others that receive some form of honorarium, why do we not acknowledge the expertise that is out there today and say, "As an organization, you are going to have an appointment onto this council," and put a limit on the number of positions?

You cannot say, "Well, for this minister, we want to have a council of four," and another minister comes in, they are going to say, "Well, we want a council of 54." There is no direction at all inside this legislation. Is the idea good? Well, I suspect that the idea is good. That is why we are okay with it going to the committee stage, but, having said that, Mr.

Speaker, we question it in terms of why it is that the minister has chosen to leave it so wide open, as opposed to– [interjection] Well, as the member from Steinbach points out, there was another appointment that was in the judicial system where there was a bit of a conflict, a possible conflict of interest. The point is that, if you want to give credibility to some of these councils that you are creati ng, you have to do it in such a way that you take some of those appointments out of the minister's responsibility and empower some of those organizations that we have in our province to fill some of those spots.

Then, ultimately, I think that what you would have is a more effective council. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you did that, I suspect that there is also a better ch ance that the council will survive through different administrations. Otherwise, what is the difference? If I know I have a committee inside my constituency and we deal with education and those are all individuals who–should they be receiving some sort of an honorarium, too, which they are not? Many MLAs have different types of committees. Many ministers have a group of individuals that they meet with.

There are all sorts of people who have an interest in being on a committee, but when you bring in legislation that gives legislative mandate to a committee, I think that we have to be a little bit more careful in the make-up of the legislation and give more due diligence as to what is the best way to move ahead. When it comes to agriculture, we saw a matter of urgent public importance introduced into this Legislature dealing with world trade, Mr. Speaker. The government did not want to debate it, so they shot it down.

Well, then, we see a few days later a resolution that is brought forward, and it is expected that everyone would get behind that resolution so that we could, if I can use my leader's comments, speak with one voice in the province on this critical issue, given what that industry has gone through over the last little while. We did, and that resolution actually passed with unanimous support. The reason why I say that, Mr. Speaker, is that what I have witnessed is a government that does not like opposition ideas unless they can have the full credit, if they cannot have the credit for it.

So that is why, can you imagine sitting around a table and, "Oh, my goodness, someone from the Keystone Agricultural community, their rep said that this is the way the government should go," and they say, "Oh, geez, no, we cannot. This has got to be an NDP idea, so we better not. It has to be an NDP appointment, after all. Then we can take full credit for the ideas." * (15:40) You can just imagine the panic had they had more independent members being present on those boards, Mr.

Speaker, or on this particular council, individuals who were not going to be held to account by only this government, but sit and participate in some of those other rural organizations, and would be held in account in terms of some of their comments and what it is that they are saying and the type of advice that they are developing for the Ministry of Agriculture. There, I guess, is one of the fundamental differences with this party that is in current government, and that is that they do not value outside ideas.

If the idea is not a New Democratic idea, they tend to shy away from it. [interjection] Well, that is an example that would work against you, so maybe I will leave that one. One member indicated the Good Samaritan bill. To me, that is proof in point. The Leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party, through working with the resources that we have,

December 5, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 909 came up with what I would classify as a brilliant idea, Mr. Speaker, something that should be acted on, the Good Samaritan legislation, and introduced it, only to find out days later, someone on the government benches kind of saw it on the Order Paper, and said, "Oh, that is a good one; we should do it," and then they introduce it. It kind of just reinforces the points that I am talking about, and that is that, look– [interjection] Well, someone said, "Well, we are stealing ideas." My argument is that no one owns a good idea.

It takes leadership to be able to recognize good ideas and to get behind those ideas. Really and truly, I would welcome comments from the government on this bill, and, if they could indicate to me why it is that the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) should be the only individual that appoints people to this council. Why do some of these other rural organizations, Mr. Speaker, have no role in playing? No doubt some of them will stand up and say, "The minister is going to consult with them," and so forth. We call that lip service.

If you really wanted to enable them, you would allow certain positions or certain community- based groups in that agricultural sector to have appointments to the council if, in fact, you really wanted to make a strong statement. But, having said that, as I indicated, this is a bill in which, in principle, will see it go to committee and see if there are other opinions that are expressed on it. We would welcome that comment in particular. I would be very interested in government members standing up and defending why it is that they have to appoint all.

I must say not all government councils and boards are all government appointees. There are a good number where, in essence, what it is that I am talking about. So there is, I believe, a credibility factor here, and I would like to hear government members defend this bill with respect to what it is that I have been talking about. If, in fact, they really saw the merit for giving more credibility to this council, the government might be best advised to make a few amendments to the legislation. So, with those few words, Mr. Speaker, I will end my comments. Thank you. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. CONCURRENCE AND THIRD READINGS Bill 2–The Private Investigators and Security Guards Amendment Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Bill 2, The Private Investigators and Security Guards Amendment Act, reported from the Standing Committee on Justice, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, I rise to put a few words on the record regarding this particular piece of legislation. Certainly, I know this bill has had the opportunity to go forward to committee and to have some comments made there, particularly by written submission. I understand that there were some suggestions that were put forward by the Retail Council regarding the legislation. I think it is important when you look at legislation to ensure that, in fact, the legislation is set out in a way that it will be fair and equitable to all parties.

Certainly, we look at and we recognize the fact that there is a good reason for this kind of legislation when you are dealing with the safety of individuals, when you are dealing with the protection of individuals. The third reading, I think, comes on an appropriate day, a day that was dominated in the earlier Question Period regarding issues of safety and regarding issues of security. That particular line of questioning dealt with a school, Mr.

Speaker, where there was clearly not the kind of safety, in the Shaftesbury School just prior to the weekend, that parents would expect that students deserve and certainly that teachers within that school deserve. So security is a very topical issue here today, and training falls into that. You know, when we were discussing the issu e of security and safety earlier today, we talked about appropriate levels of people within the school system that would have that training that was set out to ensure that there were people to deal with these issues. [interjection] I know that the Minister of Education (Mr.

Bjornson) has something to say. [interjection] The Member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer) does too, although that is usually not as significant. But I know that the Education Minister–[interjection] Oh, now we have got the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger)

910 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2005 squawking from his seat. Apparently, this rock has hit a few dogs. But, when I look at the Minister of Education, and we talk about the need to have safety within the schools, it boils down to training, Mr. Speaker.

We brought forward the idea of having retired officers that would go forward in the schools and would set forward that training and would ensure that all the teachers have the kind of base level of training for security to do systematic checks, to ensure that the schools are designed well, to ensure that there are locked doors or that sort of thing, so it all relates to training and security. We have, in retired officers, people who understand the system, know about security, understand the law, know what the appropriate way is to go about getting good information, know what is important.

So I wonder why the government would not look at that kind of initiative. When we talk about this legislation, they talk about the issue of security, but when you look at other areas, like the school system, they do not want to have that same kind of level of expertise operating within a school. The legislation that we are debating here today on third reading relates somewhat maybe to bars, or that kind of an event, Mr. Speaker, and there is a need for security there. But why would they be focussed only on that side of security but not want to have secure schools?

It seems that there is unbalance when it comes to the legislative agenda of this government. On the one hand, they want to bring forward legislation to deal with security in bars in these kinds of establishments but do not want to deal with the issue of security within schools. You know, the idea of retired officers, I think, is an appropriate one because we know that there are shortages of police officers within the province of Manitoba.

We also recognize that a large part of that shortage is due to the actions, or perhaps the inactions of the current government, an inability to plan to ensure that there was a suitable force there to replace the outgoing ones. We have all known about the demographics that we face within society in general, in particular, within the police force. We know that there are many officers who are outgoing from the police force, so why not tap into that resource? * (15:50) You have to be careful, obviously, Mr. Speaker, where that assignment is.

Perhaps it relates as well to the legislation in terms of who could be doing training for security guards. But the notion of having officers perhaps retiring from the RCMP service after 30 or 35 years, or retiring from the Winnipeg Police force after serving for 30 or 35 years, and then going into some kind of a full squad service or doing regular patrols, that is certainly nothing that finds appeal with retiring officers. I have the opportunity to talk to many of them over the cour

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-4-24
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 4th hansardpdf 24.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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