Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 42 (33rd Legislature, 2nd Session)

33-2-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 6 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Pr esenting Petitions .. . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Com mittees . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I have a non politic al· statement. I can give it now, or, i f members insist , afterwards. (Agreed) I thank honourable members. Thank you , Madam Speake r.

Mad am Speaker, as members of this House are indeed aware , the YMCA 's in Winnipeg and Brandon have ann ounced their Women of the Year and . HON. M. SMITH : YM-YWCA ; men and women . HON. H. PAWLEY: Oh , Young Men and Young Women? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. HON . H. PAWLEY: That's not the way I read it. Women of the Year distinction awards . These awards are presented annually as a tribute to the contribution all Manitoba women have made to our province , to our country , to specifically honour those women who have been selected for special recognition in their

part icular field. I had t he pleas ure of attending the Women of Distincti on Awards held in Brandon , along with the Member for River Heights, last month, and at that time offe red my congratu lations , on behalf of the people of Manitoba, to this year' s winners . They were : Sandy McNabb for Agriculture; Peggy Sharp e for Arts ; Gertrude Jasper for Community Affairs: Vivian Campb ell in the professional category ; Moira Bonar for Publ ic Service ; and Pat Farris and Debbie Ar senault for Sp o rts and Health; and Gladys Worthington for business .

I'm sure all memb ers of the House join me in congratulat ing these women and saying thank you for all that they h ave done to contribute to the life and vita lit y of the prov ince. Last night , in Winnip eg, the Winnipeg YM-YW - I hope you 're rig ht, that's not what my notes say - gave out the ir Women of the Year Award s, again honouring not only those winners, but all Manitoba women.

I woul d lil1e to cong rat ulate all those who were nomi nated , incl udin g the Honourable Member for River Heights. in all, eig ht Manitoba women were recognized for their outstanding contribu tions to our province: Evelyn 1722 Hart for her contribution to the Arts ; Sheryl McDonald for Business ; Lesley Hughes for Communications; Lydia Giles for Community Services ; Pegi Hayes for Fitness , Recreation and Sport ; Noralou Roos for the Professional category; in the area of Management/Labour , our own Deputy Minister of Labour , Mary Eady.

And, finally, Madam Speaker, allow me, on behalf of the Government of the Province of Manitoba , and I know all members of this Chamber , to congra tulate you for being named Woman of the Year in the area of Public Affairs . To you , to all the winners , the nominees and indeed to all the women of Manitoba , thank you for all that you've done to make this a better place to live and to work . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G.

FILMON: I am pleased , on behalf of all of my colleagues , to join with the Premier in congratulating all of those women who have been so suitably honoured in these distinguished women awards that have been presented , particularly to you , Madam Speaker , and to the Member for River Heights for the acknowledgment of your capabilities and services to our province . I hope, Madam Speaker, that doesn 't indicate an intention to grow a hedge around your Chair.

Madam Speaker, we think that you should suitably be recognized for this achievement and certainly not try to hide from the public your understandable pride in this accomplishment. Madam Speaker, we join the Premier in extending congratulations and best wishes to all of those who have been honoured by these distinguished awards. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speake r, I have a Ministerial Statement and I have copie s for distribution.

I would like to announce that this is Forest Week in Manitoba and throughout all Canada . The potted seedling before each of you is a Colorado Blue Spruce. While it is not an indigenous or commercial species , it is one of the most popular spruce used for ornamental yard planting . The seedling is intended to represent the importance of our trees in our economic and recreation activities. It also serves to focus our attention on the role of all our vegetation in soil and water conservation .

A seedling such as this Blue Spruce indicates the emphasis government and industry have placed on forest renewal activities. In Manitoba, during the past several years, we have seen an increas e of 150 percen t in the area planted in trees. Much of this work has been done through the Canada / Man itoba Fo rest Renewal Agreement and

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 through the Jobs Fund sectoral project in forestry. An important component of our forest renewal has been the dramatic inc rease in hectares reforested by both Abitibi Price at Pine Falls and Manfor at The Pas. I indicated this is Forest Week in Manitoba. In addition to a display at the Garden City Mall , similar exh ibits will be presented in Steinbach and Swan River this week, and in the next few weeks there will be displays in Brandon , Dauphin, The Pas and Thompson .

I would, as well, Madam Speaker, like to acknowledge the participation of the Manitoba Forestry Association in this effort and invite members to enjoy the material that is being distributed by the association which they will find on their desks . In conclusion , Madam Speaker, I would ask that all members plant this Blue Spruce at a suitable location where it will serve as a reminder of our need to be good stewards of all of our resources . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for continuing with the time-honoured tradition of having each member of the Legislature receive a tree . It has been going on for many years and I, for one, have always, as I've indicated in the past, enjoyed that. I also find it encouraging, according to the Minister's statements yesterday in Estimates , that under the federal/provincial agreement that our reforestation program has been moving along very well and that by 1990 we should get a break-even point of being able to plant as many trees as is being harvested.

Possibly , according to the Minister, by the year 2000 we should be able to catch up, to some degree, in terms of reforestation which I think is very encouraging . Madam Speaker , I just want to also indicate that I don't know whether tradition has had it that the Speaker should end up with that many trees , and I don't know whether the idea is that the Speaker necessarily will be able to keep them.

I just want to indicate to the members of the House that I am prepared to take any extra trees, if somebody wants to get rid of them - before my colleague from Charleswood, who has moved into a new place and is looking for trees, so I hope this works on a seniority basis. Once again , Madam Speaker , I want to thank the Minister for the trees and for his statement. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . .

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 27 students from Grade 11 from the Sisler High School under the direction of Mr. Richard Swain . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster; and we have 25 students from Grade 9 from the General Byng School under the direction of Miss Joanna West. The school 1723 is locate d in the constituency of the Honourabl e Member ; for Fort Garry . On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to · the Legislature this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Properties Inc.- Cabinet Min. holding shares MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Lead er of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Than k you, Madam Speaker , my question is for the Premier.

The topic of Manitob a Properties Inco rporated, a scheme that was concocted by th is administration to sell the buildings of the Provinc e o f Manitoba into a private corporation , and then sell prefer red shares in that corporation to high income earners to give them tax savings, has again been brought to public a ttention. ' So my question for the Premier is: Can he indicate whether or not any members of his Cabinet purchased shares in Manitoba Properties Inc.? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , to my knowledge no member of my Cabinet , or indeed, no member of my caucus owns shares insofar as MPI is concerned. It is my understanding that one member's spouse has, through the normal course , through the public declaration of interest, has in fact acquired some shares in MPI. Manitoba Properties Inc.- senior gov't officials holding shares MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker , given that the shares were only available for, as I understand it, approximately 48 hours on the initial offering before they were totally subscribed, I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether or not any senior officials in the departments of government, who might have had prior knowledge of this, took

part in thi s purchase? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Let me first indicate, in response to the question with respect to the offering, that it was a public offering that was made available in the normal way that other such offerings are made available to the public, through the network that's in place for such things.

In regard to the specific question, I can inform the Leader of the Opposition that none of the senior employees involved in the Department of Finance, who were either directly or indirectly invo lved in that issue, have any shares with respect to MPI. Manitoba Properties Inc.- legality of transfer of bldgs. to MPI MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, it has been suggested publicly that the government didn't have the

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 legal authority to transfer certain of the buildings into Manitoba Properties Inc ., specifically, the Centennial Concert Hall. I wonder if the Premier, or the Minister of Finance , have a legal opinion that would verify the authority of the government , to transfer all of these buildings that are listed in Manitoba Properties Inc . into that corporation? HON. E. KOSTYRA: It seems to me that we are going over ground on this issue that has been discussed on many occasions in this Legislature .

We discussed this at the time that The Financial Administration Act was amended and passed by this Legislature, which gave the government the legal authority to enter into those kind of arrangements, and that bill was passed in 1984 by this Manitoba Legislature. This issue has also been of considerable discussion through the Estimate process of the Department of Finance , and on occasions when this issue has come up at Public Accounts , when staff of the Department of Finance and the Provincial Auditor are available for responses.

I can tell the member that, with respect to the legalities of this issue, we were provided legal advice by outside counsel of the firm, Tory, Tory, Deslauriers and Binnington of Toronto, who I understand are of significant note in regard to lawyers in these kind of matters , and they were the ones that provided legal advi ce to the government with respect to th is issue. MR. G. FILMON: Not only were there two Tory's, but I underst and there was the Leader of the federal Liberal Party in that firm. Manitoba Properties Inc.- shares principally to Man . residents MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my further question to th e M inister is: Did the government take any steps to ensure that shares would be sold pr incipally, or at least at first chance , to Manitoba residents , as opposed to being sold broadly to major corporations and institutions and others who may have been from outs ide the prov ince? HON. E. KOSTYRA : As I ind icated, Madam Speaker , in response to a previous question, this area has been di scussed previously .

The offering was done in the normal fashion through the normal network that is available for these kinds of offerings in the private secto r, and I presume when it's happened previously in the private sector in the province of British Columbia . I should also add , while I'm responding to the question to deal with one other misinformation that is being perpetuated with regard to this issue, and that is with respect to the control of the government buildings that were part of these offerings.

The buildings are under the control and the ownership, through a wholly-owned subs idiary of the Government of Manitoba, and all the people of the Province of Manitoba ; that has not changed as a result of this offering, it has not changed since 1984, and is still the case today that those buildings are under the control of the people of the Province of Manitoba. Manitoba Properties Inc.- Curtis, Charles on Peter Warren Show MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. C. MANNESS : Thank you very much , Madam Speaker. Following up on the same subject.

The Minister of Finance no longer denies the fact that the build ings have been sold. People that have listened to this discussion back and forth will remember well the Minister of Finance say the build ings have not been sold. Madam Speaker, I ask the Minister of Finance , given the fact that, on the basis of the discussion of the issue on the Peter Warren show this morning; and given that Mr. Charlie Curtis seemed to want to reply - matter of fact , did call in and did respond to the issue - did he do so on his own volition or was he directed by the Minister of Finance to do so?

MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's rather an unfortunate question from the Member for Morris, but let me respond by commenting on the question and providing a response , and also what I understand was on the Peter Warren show. I understand that Mr. Warren claimed to have phoned my home and left a message which I did not respond to this morning in terms of coming on his show. Mr. Warren , himself , knows because he put it in a newspaper

article that he writes that I'm not at home at 8:30, or whatever time he called in the morning , that I'm off having to do some exercising to get my weight under control; in fact, he wrote that himself, so it seems to be a bit deliberate by Mr. Peter Warren to suggest that he phoned and left a message on my answering service after eight o'clock in the morning when he knows that I leave my home prior to seven o'clock in the morning. His office also called my office just before nine o'clock indicating that they wanted a response from me to deal with this issue on the show.

I indicated that I was going into a Cabinet meeting and that my Deputy Ministe r would be willing to respond and deal with any of the technical details of this , which I understand he did, and he did so of his own volition , Madam Speaker . Tax on net income - impact on charitable donations MR. C. MANNESS: A new question to the Minister of Finance, and I thank him for that clarification , Madam Speaker .

The new net income flat tax of 2 percent effective July 1 will be applied on income, before deductions will be allowed for medical costs and charitable donations ; has the government in its haste to tax everything done an analysis to determine what impact that tax will have on givens . To what degree will Manitobans, individually , give less to charities within this province because of this new tax coming down? 1724 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance .

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you , Madam Speaker . I reject some of the assumptions that were made in the question by the member in respo nse to this issue of net income tax, to somehow suggest that the government imposed taxes , in its haste for the sake of raising taxes, is simply not true .

As the member knows, we are looking after providing the necessary services for Manitobans in health, education , additional support for agriculture; and we brought about raises in taxation, in revenue, in order to provide for those services in the fairest and most balanced way possible and , at the same time, bringing about a reduction in the deficit. If the member has some othe r ways or other suggestions how that can be accomplished , then I wish he would have made those suggestions public.

All we can look at is the example of other Conservative Governments in this country that deal with those kind of problems , either by raising the deficits like they 've done in the Maritimes , or reducing services like they are in the Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan.

In terms of the net income tax, Mad am Speaker, the experience with that tax in the Province of Saskatchewan is one that indicates that there is no major change in the attitude of people in that province with respect to charitable deductions, and I don't think that would be the case here in the Province of Manitoba; and I'm sur e that was partially in the mind of the Leader of the Opposition when he, in December of last year, endorsed this

part icular tax . Tax on net income - rationale between charities, and union and professional fees MR. C. MANNESS : A final supplementar y, Madam Speaker . Union and professional dues are totally deductible before this tax. Can the Minister of Finance tell us now the rationale as to why money that is directed toward charities has to be fully taxed under this tax , where money that is directed towards union and professional fees is deducted before the tax? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Madam Speaker , that question is really one that should not be directed at myself, as provincial Minister of Finance , but the Federal Minister of Finance who would only allow the addition of that tax to be put in the way that it has been put in. It' s certainly our position that there should be a major overhaul of the income tax system ; however the Federal Government would only allow that that additional tax be put on in the place and in the manner that it has been .

We would have much preferred to have it done in a different manner, Madam Speaker , but the reality and the situation that the Federal Government said was that it could only be put on in that place , allowing some deductions to be allowed before, and others to flow after. We would much prefer to have a total redraft and reform of the tax system to deal with some of the anomalies - more than anomalies - some of the loopholes that exist and should be corrected . Chiropody - training of nurses MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

My question is directed to the Minister of Health . It appears that the Minister 's department has recently set up a pilot program which will allow nurses to take up the speciality of chiropody on a very ad hoc basis of training; in fact, it would appear th at while chiropodists receive three years of training, these nurses who will be working in the field will, in fact, have as little as one day of tra inin g.

Would the Minister please tell the House what , meas ures he is prepared to take to guarantee that these nurses will receive the appropriate training in chiropody before starting to practice in this discipline? MADAM SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I must confess , that thi s comes as a complete surprise to me. I haven 't , heard anything about that at al!, so I'll have to inquire . I doubt very much that it's the department that is doing that. It might be with the nursing profe ssion, but I'll try to find out and report to the members of the House .

AIDS - bisexual activity HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , while I'm on my feet I'd like to answer a que sti on of the Member for River East, some information related to AIDS in Manitoba . There were 17 cases, of which 9 are still alive and 8 died . They were all homosexual, bisexual males; 3 also reported intravenous drug use; ther e were 5 between the ages of 20 and 29; 8 between 30 and 39, that's of the 17; 2 between the ages of 40 and 49; and 2 that were over 50. Fourteen of them were from Canada , and 3 from outside of Canada, I don 't know from what country .

Chiropody Ass'n - discussions re nurses to practice MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question , Madam Speaker , to the Minister of Health . Will the Minister of Health guarantee to the Professional Associat ion of Chiropodists , that before nurses are allowed to practice in this area, there will be discussions with the Chiropody Association? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I think that I was quite fair in saying that I've never heard anything about that. I'm not abo ut to make guarantees before I find out a little more abo ut it.

Provincial socia·1 allowance recipients - increase in number MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for ' Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: My question is to the Mini ster of Employment Services and Economic Security. The Minister takes every opportunity to praise Manitoba's employment rate, while provincial soc ial assistance cases continue to rise every year. Can the 1725

) Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 Minister explain why there's a rise in provincial welfare cases, in excess of 3,600, from 1981 to 1986, and an increase of almost 1,650 municipal cases between 1983 and 1986? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , as the honourable member knows . probably the most appropriate place to discuss details of this nature are in the Estimates of the department.

But I would like to remind the honourable member that the Provincial Social Allowance Program deals with people who are long term disabled , the elderly and mother 's allowances , and there 's some structural matters occurring in our economy, in our society, that account for that; one of which is the fact that there are more and more people who are being deinstitutionalized, the Welcome Home Program, for instance . We do cover allowance for those people under this program .

There are other people, who are requiring of our assistance -(lnterjection) Madam Speaker , the Honourable Member for Arthur keeps on interrupting me. I'm trying to give an explanation, if he would only be patient, I would explain to him that there's some major changes occurring in the society. Another phenomenon is the increasing number of single-parent families and, as a result, you have an increase in mother's allowances . So I'm suggesting, Madam Speaker , that those are the critical factors that account for any increase in social allowances cases in our province.

However, when we get to the Estimates we can do this in certainly a great more detail than we can during the question period. MRS. C. OLESON: Can the Minister tell the House how many more cases are on the provincial and municipal welfare rolls in 1987? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice and advise the member subsequently . Provincial social allowance recipients - number employed as result of training program MRS. C. OLESON: Can the Minister tell the House how many welfare recipients who have taken advantage of the training programs have found permanent jobs? HON. L.

EVANS: Yes; again , Madam Speaker, I'll be glad to discuss this with the member in our Estimates . However, I want to remind the honourable member that more and more, and with the cooperation of the Federal Government, are we zeroing in on people who should be helped, who can be helped to get off of welfare, to get off of social assistance and to become independent and live richer lives. And I will be making a statement in the near future, Madam Speaker, about this very matter, another initiative, which we are taking jointly with the Federal Government.

Rendez-vous Canada - number participating MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: I'd like to direct a couple of questions to the Minister responsible for Tourism . Can the Honourable Minister inform this House and the people of Manitoba about the level of attendance in terms of the number of people participating in Rendez-vous Canada Conference? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

I'm sure that all the members of the Chamber and all of the people in Manitoba are delighted to know that Manitoba is hosting the largest national and international travel marketplace fair in the country . Madam Speaker, we have 1000 delegates here from 28 countries and six nations in Manitoba, and they're raving about Manitoba. They love Manitoba , Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, we have a record number of sellers and a record number of buyers. In the first day of activity they did more business in Manitoba than they did in the whole session, in the whole three days , in the last Rendez-vous Canada.

It looks like we have a smashing success on our hands . We're going to gain $1 million in direct sales from the delegates being here and we're hoping to double the amount of money we make from Rendez-vous as a result of being able to show them Manitoba first -hand . MR. C. SANTOS: Can the Honourable Minister also tell this House what other organizations are participating in this conference? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, in terms of the representation, we have all of the provinces participating, and what we are doing is selling Manitoba and Canada as one of the playgrounds of the world to come to for holidays, Madam Speaker. Apart from the provincial representation, we have industry representation and we're doing a number of things, Madam Speaker. I'm sure that the members opposite, particularly the Member for Portage la Prairie, who is interested in what we're doing to promote Manitoba to the international market, would like to hear what we are doing in this regard.

Before Rendez-vous Canada began, Madam Speaker, we had 12 representatives from the travel industry in Hong Kong coming to tour and to visit Manitoba . They're going to go back to Hong Kong and promote Manitoba as one of the best places to come, Madam Speaker . We have also arranged, Madam Speaker , for tours which I'm sure the members opposite will be glad to hear about because their post-conference tour is out into the rural area of our province, so that we are not just promoting the city, but we are also showing everything that we have to offer through the north and in the country , and that's very important .

But you know, Madam Speaker, the most important thing that we did? The delegates are raving about the hospitality, about the organization, and about the service provided by Manitoba . They've never seen anything like it and they all want to come back . 1726

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 MPIC - registration of salvage vehicles MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Membe r fo r Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you , Madam Spea ker, my question is to the Minister resp ons ible for MPIC. In response to previous questions from the Member for Minnedosa on April 6, the Minister in charge mentioned that, in regard to the write-off vehicles of Autopac , that he has initiated five steps to solve th is

part icular situation. Could the Minister at th is time tell the Chamber what steps and give us an update on what has happened and what has processed since then? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, thank you, Madam Speaker. I did announce a few weeks ago steps that the corporation would be taking to deal with the issue of salvaged vehicles being sold to Manitobans without knowledge of their previous history.

My understanding is that the Manitoba Publ ic Insurance Corporation now does have a phone number one can contact to find out whether or not the vehicle that is being offered for sale has been a write-off . In terms of the legislative requirements there will be an amendment brought in by my colleague , the Minister of Consumer Affairs - that should be com ing in shortly - and other steps are being undertaken . As I indicated it would take about three months to implement the first phase . MPIC - safety certificate re salvage vehicles MR. G. DUCHARME: Madam Speaker, a new question to the same Minister .

In consideration that, as of April 1, '87, safety programs, including the Light Truck-Passenger Car Safety Inspection Program were transferred from the division of Driver Vehicle Licencing to the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation , and in light of a recen t untimely death of a youngster on April 23, 1987 , and by the police report of that accident it was a newly purchased vehicle , purchased privately, and in the same report it was assumed that the wheel of the vehicle had fallen off, has this Minister 's department also considered legislation on all purchases, including private, dealers, etc. be subject to a safety certificate being supplied when purchasing at all Autopac outlets?

HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: In fact, there has always been a requirement of any salvaged vehicle that has been sold by MPIC and rehabilitated, to have a safety certificate prior to that vehicle being registered. The problems was that some of the salvaged vehicles were extensively sold as privately-owned vehicles and, in a way, getting around the requirement by MPIC. The requirement that all vehicles have a safety certificate is something that is under consideration. Sugar beet industry - tripartite agreement MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac ' du Bonnet. MR. C.

BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speak er, my question is for the Minister of Industry Trade and Technology. Can he inform us as to the progress made insof ar as the sugar beet agreement is concerned ? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROED ER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. There are currently negotiations ongoing in Ottaw a between representatives of the Provincial Govern ment and the Federal Government and cert ainly we're hopeful that something can be announced fairly quickly. Sugar beet industry - immediate notification re agreement MR. C.

BAKER: A supplementary question, Madam Speaker . Could we be assured that there will be some · immediate notification to the farmers of Manitoba , insofar as the agre ement is concerned, so they can get out there and do their planting, this being the eleventh hour? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, immediately upon the conclusion of the discussions , our representatives are going to be getting back to us, and we can make sure that the farmers and everyone else involved, the working people involved , will be made aware of these results.

Pornography - prov. support of federal legislation MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park . 1727 MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I have a question , Madam Speaker , for the Attorney-General. Does the Attorney General and the present government, will the y be supporting the new federal bill on pornography? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Genera l. HON. R. PENNER: Well, Madam Speaker, I have some concern about the question, in the sense that it asked me to comment with respect to a federal piece of legislation that has just been introduced.

If I may, and I think this would answer the quest ion for the honourable member , certainly Manitob a has been one of the lead provinces in urging the Federal Government to strengthen the obscenity provisions of the Criminal Code, with particular respect to sex ual violence, degradation and kiddy porn and we welcome those particular provisions of the bill. I'm not prepared to do a complete analysis of all of the other provisions of the bill, but that is the main thrust of the bill and, to that extent, we certainly support it.

That has been our policy and continues to be our policy and certainly , with respect to prosecution , that's where we zero in on prosecution.

f) Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 What I have said, and I think I need go no further than this, the only concern I have with the bill , from a governmental point of view , from a law enforcement point of view, is that it seems to me that it is very convoluted and may create problems for law enforcement. But I have asked senior officials in my department to do an analysis of the bill from the law enforcement point of view. Cellular telephone service - availability of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you , Madam Speaker .

My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System . Madam Speaker , can the Minister indicate when Manitobans might be able to avail themselves of cellular telephone service? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS . HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker , the cellular telephone issue is one which I've commented briefly on, in the public before.

We have asked the Federal Minister of Communications, the Honourable Flora MacDonald, for a meeting to discuss the whole issue of the precedent in other provinces of CanTel or other companies having a six-month head start over the Manitoba Telephone System .

In addition to that , Madam Speaker, I've asked for a business plan to be outlined in terms of the cellular telephone , and that business plan is also being evaluated by Coopers and Lybrand, as well as the other projects, as the honourable member is aware of; and I hope to be able to proceed very shortly with the introduction of that technology, with a good, sound operating business plan in the Telephone System in that area . Cellular telephones - competitive supply market MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister.

Will there be a competitive supply market in cellular telephones, MTS and other companies making that service available in the province? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, that will depend, first of all, on the competition , other companies . I understand that one company CanTel has competed in other provinces and indicated it wants to compete in Manitoba, so that I would anticipate there will be competition in that area .

Our concern , Madam Speaker, is that the rules that were established by the former Liberal Government, Francis Fox, and carried out by Marcel Masse and the present Federal Minister of Communication, to give a private firm a six-month head start does not make sense in a small province like Manitoba . I understand the Province of Saskatchewan 1728 has some of the similar concerns, being a small province . And we understand even Alberta has taken counter measures through their Public Utilities Board to try to establish an equal starting time for the competitive company and the public telephone system .

And that's what we would certainly prefer and that's why I've written the Federal Minister and asked that this be considered . MTS - provision for cellular telephones MR. D. ORCHARD: My final supplementary to the Minister, Madam Speaker. Is the technical capability presently in place and capable of full operation in the Manitoba Telephone System for the provision of cellular telephone service right now? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, some time ago , the Telephone System had ordered equipment for cellular telephone. It does require an O/C in terms of interconnect permission .

It also requires regulations being established by the Public Utilities Board. Madam Speaker, I believe that we should have a business plan in place and part of that business plan, must include , in my opinion, the whole issue of whether we're going to start at-the same period of time for competition in the cellular market, or whether we are going to start with the preferential treatment to the private company that's been established as a precedent by the Federal Government. So that obviously affects the numbers in a small province, in a small market, in relative terms, like Manitoba .

So those are very important factors, I believe , but I do want to bring this to a head because there is a situation in this province where there 's no further surplus of mobile lines and there are people that want to have that kind of technological capacity . MTS - purchase of equipment for cellular telephone system MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, a new question to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System .

Given that the Minister is indicating that he is anxious to see a business plan developed for MTS's entry into the cellular telephone system, can the Minister ind icate when, and upon what business plan , this government allowed the purchase of equipment and the installation of a cellular telephone system by MTS to take place, obviously without a business plan , which he now says he wishes to see. HON. G.

DOER: Madam Speaker , as I indicated to the member when he asked the question of whether they had the equipment , there has been a purchase, on a preliminary basis - quite an extensive purchase, as probably the member knows - of some of the equipment necessary for the cellular telephone business in this province . And, Madam Speaker, I felt , prior to going the next step, that we should resolve two issues .

One is a business plan for purposes of the cellular telephone issue in this province; and , secondly, Madam Speaker, and legitimately so, getting a fair starting line for both the private and pub lic companies to compete in the mobile industry.

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 Madam Speaker, we will not see a private company go up and give mobile ship-to-shore service on Lake Winnipeg for the fishermen like what th e public telephone system will be required to do in this province . Native Affairs - job description of secretary to Comm. of Cabinet MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question to the Minister responsible for Native Affairs. Madam Speaker, the Minister of Native Affairs , on the 13th of April hired a secretary to the Native Affairs Committ ee of Cabinet for some $53,448 a year.

Would the Minister of Native Affairs provide the Assembly with a job description for that individual who's being paid that amount of money? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. E. HARPER: Yes, I'll be pleased to write that information . Native Affairs - selection process for secretary MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, was there a competition or how was the individual selected? HON. E. HARPER: Yes, there was a competition. I don't know how many applicants there were, but we did go through the competition. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, how many hours a week would be involved in such a job as the secretary to the Native Affairs Committee of Cabinet , and what other benefits are there besides the $53,400-and-some? HON. E. HARPER: He's also the Senior Native Affairs Advisor and is also responsible to the Native Affairs Committee of Cabinet, as secretary, so it's a full-time position. I might add that the job and the person that's in that position is providing long hours of work. MR. J.

DOWNEY: For clarification to the Minister, would that not fit in the same category as Terry Sargeant and Phil Eyler, individuals who hired for the same job as what he's telling us that this individual is? Is that not the same job that he's now hiring another individual for? Terry Sargeant has the same kind of a job; Phil Eyler, former members of the House of Commons , New Democrat and former member of the Manitoba Legislative . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please . The question is argumentative. Riverbank stabilization - proposal to Fed. Gov't MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker , I direct my question to the Minister of Natural Resou rces. Constituents of mine along Red River Drive, in the R.M. of Ritchot, have experienced and been troubled by a slide of that particular road, formerly Highway 75, partly down the riverbank. Last year, I wrote the Minister requesting that he help prepare four of my constituents a case that they may · take to the Federal Government, to relieve them of this particular problem. The Minister offered the engineering • staff of the Water Resources Branch.

My question to the Minister, Madam Speaker: Will . he be prepared, as per my request last fall, to help them document their case, so as they may apply to · the Federal Government for some type or relief to bring again together that community? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources . HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Yes, I am aware of that issue and it was brought to my attention by the member opposite, and indeed · people from the municipality . The problem did relate to the position of a road, and the subsequent slumping I of the riverbank.

We did indicate our willingness to participate with them in providing technical advice. As the member opposite ind icates in his comments, the ; responsibility rests with the Federal Government, but " if we can be of assistance, we've always looked to work cooperatively, not only with different levels of government , but with individuals and, if that has not already taken place, we'd be prepared to do so in the future. 1 MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary, Madam I Speaker.

The Provincial Government has participated in 1 riverbank stabilization programs before, such as, the ARC Program with the Federal Government. Is it the , intentio n of this government, is it the intention at all, 1 to help my constit uents in this case deal with this 1 problem in any meaningful fashion. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, before I could make a commitment on that matter, I would want to have a clear understanding of the magnitude of the • problem and where the responsibility rests in terms of resolving the problem.

Clearly, in some of the other projects the member has referenced, in terms of the ARC Prog ram, there was a shared responsibility to resolve particula r riverbank problems . When the report is in on this particular issue , if there is room to develop a program of joint responsibility, but clearly recognizing that the responsibi lity at this time is with the Federal Government, but there are agreements that are entered into to resolve wide-ranging problems . It may be possible to address this one . Riverbank stabilization - time frame MR. C.

MANNESS: Could the Minister indicate what time frame we're looking at before that report will be completed and he'll be able to tell us whether or not 1729

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 he is prep ared to enter into at least discussions to help relieve this problem? · HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I can check with the department staff to determine whether in fact some of the discussions on the technical problems have taken place and determine a time frame for that. But in terms of developing any programs of shared responsibility as there have been in other jurisdictions , and there are throughout the province many issues related to water that we have sought participat ion of the Federal Government.

I certainly could not commit myself , or the federa l counterpart, to a time frame on that. I could only indicate that we are interested and we would be willing to enter into those discussions. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired . COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for ' Kildonan. ) MR. M. DOLIN: Committee changes, Madam Speaker . I move, seconded by the Member for Elmwood , that the composition on the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows : Hon . E. Kostyra for Hon. E. Harper; Hon . A. Mackling for M. Dolin .

ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker . In terms of House Business , it's our intention to call bills this afternoon. Madam Speaker, if time permits , however , we will be moving into Committee of Supply. I believe there is a willingness on the part of members to waive Private Members' Hour should we proceed into Committee of Supply .

With respect to Standing Committees , Madam Speaker, the Standing Committee on Economic Development will be meeting tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. to deal with the Manitoba Development Corpora tion Annual Report , with the exception of McKenzie Seeds. The committee has agreed to meet later on in the Session to conclude its review of McKenzie Seeds. Madam Speaker , would you please call Debate on Second Reading , Bills 4 proceeding through Bill 22.

ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 4 - THE RE-ENACTMENT STATUTES OF MANITOBA, 1987 Act MADAM SPEAKER: Debate on Second Reading on the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney General, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, we're prepared to pass this bill on to committee . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, perhaps , if I can take just a few minutes , Madam Speaker , in closing debate to respond to questions raised by the Member for Gladstone , I think that the Member for St. Norbert would want my response .

In any event , we may be dealing with this matter during Estimat es. Prior to the Manitoba Language Reference case, the previous administration had begun to translate and publish the laws of this province in both languages in what is called an opposite page . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. If honourable members have private conversations, could they please carry them on elsewhere . The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: . . . in an opposite page bilingual format, and the decision at that time appears to have been to put the new laws out together in both languages .

In fact , that was the system in effect when this government assumed office and we continued the practice for a time. What was happening is that slowly, as the laws were replaced or amended, the continuing consolidation was being sent to subscribers in a bilingual format .

In the reference case, the Supreme Court held, quite clearly, of course, that the legislative process of the province was fundamentally flawed from a constitutional point of view, and that the validity of the laws - past, present , future - depended on efforts of the province to bring the laws into compliance, and members will recall that the Supreme Court provided a period of temporary validity which it was prepared to define more clearly if the parties came back to the Supreme Court for an order, and that was done at the insistence of, in fact, several of the parties. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please .

Could we please have order . If honourable members want to visit they can do so elsewhere. The Honourable Attorney-General has the floor. HON. R. PENNER: We might consider setting aside a room for trading trees . Madam Speaker, as you know I've got my eye on several of your trees and I don't want that misconstrued. In any event , Madam Speaker, a validation plan was developed and it was this plan which was considered and commented upon by all of the parties to the initial action, not just any one of them.

The plan which we presented , one of our key concerns in presenting a validation plan to the Supreme Court was to ensure that we had the time which we felt was required to be able to do the re-enactment of the laws, of the regulations , of the past statutes , of the rules of court, and so on , and not press us to the wall , both from the point of view of time , the allocation of resources . And there were some parties to the act ion who were arguing for a shorter time and we were able to maintain our 1730

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 time

schedule in the order obtained from the Supreme Cour t. We were conc erned, of course , with the question of publication because , mem ber s will reca ll that the decision of the Supreme Court was that the laws of the province had to be enacted and published in both langua ges. So we had to comp ly full y with the order of the court.

The way in which we did it had to be pra ctical in a legal sense so that, where in fact our matters were being argued in either one of the languages used, since both languages are equally official, questions of comparison which are often raised in legal argument could be made easily and handily, and the cost , of course, of the plan had to be reasonab le. The Supreme Court ruling required that all laws, as I say, not only be enacted, but print ed and published in bo th languages . So we had to consider some basic quest ions relating to how we would go abou t doing this.

This led us to consider, as par t of the plan, the format for the legislation. Initially , it was thought best to continue with the then current format of oppo site pages , which had been started by the former administrat ion, with French on one page and English on the other . This allowed for fairly easy reference and was in a format that had been used for some time . The experience , however, of the Prov ince of New Brunswick with the Federal Government led us to consider the dual-column format which has advantages at the front end, that is, in the drafting and presentation of bills in the House .

More recently, incidentally , the Province of Ontario which is moving to a bilingual format for its Statutes , which will be distributed in both languages for all new laws and current laws by 1990, is going to be using that same format. The matter of the cost - and here I come closer to questions addressed by the Member for Glads tone - of printing was referred to the Queen 's Printer who in turn referred the matter to an outside printer.

Of the three formats considered , opposite page , dual column small page , dual column large page , the least expens ive by far was the dual column in a large page format, the way we see the bills coming into the House in this Session . The overall cost, of course , depends on the number of subscriptions and the extent to which we are able to consolidate laws and regulations . The actual cost saving of moving to the larger format , the one we're using, would be about 15 percent ove r the opposite page format .

Another question that is raised, but it's really related to what I've been saying , is well why don 't we consider separate volumes , one in English and one in French , sent to subscribers as requested. This format was not considered , nor apparently was it considered by the previous administration when it began the bilingual publication of the CCSM. Madam Speaker , it was not considered for several reasons. We were advised that t he practice of completely separate volumes brought with it definite legal and practical risks.

As I pointed out a few moments ago , every jurisdiction to adopt bilingual legislation recently, other than in the Province of Quebec , has come to the same conclusion. I would like to refer honourable members to a recent case in Manitoba, the Wade case where Mr.

Justice Dureau lt of the Man itoba Queen's Bench in his judgment in that case said, specifi cally, " if the series is to provide ready access to the laws in an updated forma t, it necessarily has to be a bilingual version." Now , onc e it has to be a bilingual version , and I'll go on with the rest of his statement in a moment, then we get back to the question, opposite page or dual column , and I've already ind icate d that, of those two , dual column is the cheaper.

He goes on to say: " In the future, the Crown officer responsible for the printing and publishin g of the CCSM should keep in mind that unilingual versions of laws enacted since June 13 have no offici al status , and that unili ngual publication is not constitutionally permissible ; it is an exercise in futil ity." I don't thin k anybody in this House , and I don't think any Manitoban, would want us to go through that reference to the Supreme Court again on something of that kind. That is why, Madam Speaker, not to put too fine a point on it, we ended up with a deci sion for the dual column, a bilingual format.

I should also point out, finally , Madam Speaker , that the technology that we're now using allows us to move directly from the bill to the final act and legislativ e counsel is now able to prod uce for the printer photo ready copy, and that is saving us a lot of time and a lot of money. Thi s has remove d the need for costly typesett ing and reproof ing of the bills . These savings would be lost if it were necessary to reformat into two separate versio ns for the purposes of distribut ion.

I should point out, and I'm comi ng to the conclusion here , tha t the subsc riber s to the CCSM are not going to be charge d for the revised statutes. We would have had to rev ise the statutes in any event and the incremental cost of doing it in this for mat is rather small , but it is not the intention to charge the subsc riber s to the CCSM for the new CCSM which will come out late r in the year. That is a cost to be shared between the government and the Federal Government with the lion 's share being borne by the Federal Government.

So this bill, as it moves to committee , takes us a signif icant step forward towards full compliance so necessary to ensure that our laws are in conformity with const itu tional ob ligations. Finally, a question that concerns the former Attorney General, that has been raised once or twice in the House - once, I think, by the Leader of the Oppo sition - as to cost contribution, bec ause different figures have been mentioned , it is true that in response to a questio n some many months ago, it was said that we exp ect ed a contribution from the Federal Government for this last fiscal year of $300,000.00.

That was an estimate because we we re negoti ating on very spec ific questions. Subseq uently, that was rais ed , i n our view, t o $400,000.00 . I'm happy to be able to advise the House that abou t a week-an d-a -half ago we in fact receiv ed the cheque - it wasn 't lost in the mail - for the last fiscal year and it was $500,000.00. I want to pay tribu te to my deputy who is actually doing the negotiations with Ottawa officials . We are looking forward in this fiscal year to $600 ,000, but tha t wou ld have to be an estim ate and it may end up by being more.

Certainly, there will be both a contr ibution from the Secretary of St ate with respec t to the cost of translation, and what we're looking for is a significant contribution with respect to the publication. 1731

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 So with those words of explanation , I want to thank the Member for Gladstone for raising these concerns. I hope I've dealt with them , and we look forward to the matter going through commit tee speedily so that we can get on with the job of publishing the re-enacted statutes . QUESTION put, MOTION carried BILL NO. 5 -

AN ACT TO REPEAL CERTAIN STATUTES RELATING TO EDUCATION AND OTHER MATTERS MADAM SPEAKER: On the mot ion of the Honourable Attorney-General , Bill No. 5, standing in name of the Honourable Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mada m Speaker , we've had a chance to review the bill and are prepared to let it proceed to committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried . MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Government Services , Bill No. 6, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye . MR. H. PANKRATZ: Stand.

BILL NO. 12 - THE HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION DEPARTMENT ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation, Bill No. 12, the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER : Madam Speaker, I can indicate on behalf of the Member for Minnedosa that he is prepared to see the bill pass , subject to any brief comments that may be made by others on this side of the House . MADAM SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I wish to place a few comments on the record on Bill No. 12.

Madam Speaker, Bill No. 12, from the surface, appears to be, as the Minister described it, an innocuous sort of housecleaning type of bill and shouldn't possibly need too much scrutiny. Madam Speaker , I guess there's one area that needs to be touched up on this bill before we pass it , and that is the final

section that the Minister commented on in terms of a new subsection proposed to facilitate payment of grants, etc. Now, part of it is for the Rural Handicap Transit System Program which my predecessor, the Member for Lakeside, as Highways Minist er started working on and was brought in in 1980- 81 when I was Mini ster responsible , and carried on by the New Democrats, and will now be expanded presumably to rural Manitoba . That' s not of concern.

But t he section, in general , that contains that provision or contains that ability , enabling ability , also allows this Minister of Highways and any New Democrat Minister of Highway s to dramatically alter the fees charged by Order-in-Council without debat e in this Legislature. Madam Speaker , I took the lib erty before coming to the House today to take a loo k at the last Estimates Book of Expenditures passed by another administration , one that I was proud to serve, and that being the Estimates of 1981-82 fiscal year.

Madam Speaker, just as a figure of interest, the motor carrier fees and automobile and drivers' licence fees that were collected in 1981-8 2 amounted to some $29 million.

We substantially have not changed a great deal in the population in the Province of Manitoba; and as a result now of five successive New Democratic Party administrations , we now see in this year's Estimates of Revenue that drivers' licenc es, automobi le and motor carrier licences and fees will total $48.5 million this year, an increase of $19 .5 million over five years - $4 million a year - that this Minister and his government have gleaned from the driving public.

Now, one might say that that collection of fees and revenues is necessary if we're going to have a well maintained and rebuilt highway system, but the driving public in Manitoba, under this weak-kneed Minister , have neither, Mada m Speaker. We have the driving public paying incred ibly more money for the privilege of driving on increasingly worsening high ways in the Province of Manitoba while this Minister and the New Democrats gouge the driver for more mone y. As a small example , Madam Speaker , I used the automobile licence fees as part of the comparison , but I also want to do one other comparison in here.

In 1981-82, it was estimated that gasoline tax would raise some $7 4.5 million from the driving public of Manitoba . That figure is now up to $115 million, and bear in mind, Madam Speaker, this is with vehicles that are much more fuel efficient today than what they were in'81- 82; hence the consumption of gasoline certainly hasn't been increasing but the revenues are up by more than almost 50 percent.

In that year of 1981-82 , for this Minister's edification, because obviously this Minister of Highways has not been paying attention to his department, the Highways Department for construction in that year spent $85 million on highway construction while they collected less than $75 million in gasoline taxes. Now I want to contrast that this year, Madam Speake r, where the Highways Department will be seeing the collection - not the Highways Department - but the people of Manitoba will pay $115 million in gasoline taxes , and this year the total construction program projected to be spent is less than $88 million.

It's gone from more than what we collected in gasoline taxes to $30 million less than we collect in gasoline taxes under the administration of the Department of Highways by five successive years of a New Democratic Party Government which doesn 't have any emphasis, care or consideration for anything beyond the concrete curtain , the Perimeter Highway. If it isn't urban or Northern Manitoba, they don 't care; and with this Minister of Highways, if it isn 't in his constituency, he doesn't care. It's got to be built in the constituency of Dauphin or the highway project simply doesn't go ahead.

Southern Manitoba, where a vast bulk of that $115 million is collected , does not 1732

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 receive any high way construction, none from th is Minister and from this New Democratic Par ty Government. So, Mad am Speaker, when we're asked to pass bills in th is House wh ich allow, by Order - in-Council regulation, without debate in this House, the collection of ever-higher fees, that concerns me because this Minister of High ways is a lightweight. He does not have clout in Cabi net in order to spend any portion of the mon ies that he is responsible for collecting in the Highways Depa rtment.

Well, you know , my honourable friends over there in the back row, two of them in particul ar - one is just smiling sillily, he isn't saying anything , quite to his credit - but my othe r t wo fri ends over there are m oaning and groanin g. Now , Madam Speaker , those two gentlemen probably have never driven outside of the Perimeter Highway to know the despicable shape that Manitoba highways are getting at. MR. D. SCOTT: We know your riding well. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, the one member said he knows my riding well . I don 't know when he was down there last.

Maybe it was when he was librarian out at the school there, I don't know, but that was many years ago when money was being spent on highways and the roads were good at that time ; now they 're not, Madam Speaker. You know I can appreciate a New Democratic Party Government not wanting to spend money on roads in rural Manitoba. Why should they?

It's the same sort of scenario that we get into with the sugar beet industry , wherein the editorial comment in the Valley Leader has indicated that the reason the sugar beet agreement has not gone through, according to the Industry, Trade and Technology Minister, is that the growers don't represent a great political force for the New Democratic Party, and if the politics aren't there, they don't go ahead and sign agreements unless there's political benefit to the New Democrats.

And Southern Manitoba, where the sugar beets are grown, doesn't have any political credit for this party; hence, this agreement is not a priority, and neither are highways.- (Interjection)- Pardon? HON. R. PENNER: The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology made no such statement. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, then, I suggest if the Attorney General is so intelligent as to know what his Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology has said , then possibly he should read the editorial in the Valley Leader. It might help to enlighten the Attorney-General.

But, Madam Speaker, this Minister is now asking for authority in The Highway and Transportation Department Act to collect further fees by Order-in Council set by regulation . And, Madam Speaker, I don't need to dwell too much longer in the Estimates of Revenues to show you that when this government collects more money from the driving public, they spend less money on the highways. The highway system goes down, down, down. We have now gone from having one of the best highway systems in Western Canada to having the worse highway system in Western Canada.

Today we had the Minister of Tourism stand up from a planted question in the back row and give for th in a theatrical way about the advantages of tourism in Manitoba . Well, the tourists from the United States and from our neighbour ing provinces who come to Manit oba simp ly aren 't very happy when they drive on Manito ba's alleg ed highways . It's because, Madam Speaker , as I' ve said for the last th ree to four ye ars , and unfortunately I missed the opportunity to help the Min ister through his Estimates this year.

I really missed being there and asking him again about the $29 million bridge to nowhere north of Selkirk , because th at is the funding priority of this governm ent; a $29 million bridge and access roads, which have no useful purpos e a nd should have been built south of Selkir k, which even his departmental staff will tell him. But, Madam Speaker, that is another issue of the misappropriated spending . They don't know where to spend the money when they do have some to spend. But, Madam Speake r, most of the tourism in Manitoba comes to this province by highway, by vehicle , by car.

The highway system in this province is in wretched shape , just absolutely wretched shape, and it's going downhill very rapidly. TRIP Canada, th is year, put out their report once again and it showed the Manitob a highway system to be deterioriating even more rapidly than before, and this Minister doesn 't have th e understanding as to what 's happening in hi s department.

And if he does understand what 's happening, he doesn't have the respect of his Cabin et colleagues and the Finance Minister to allow him to spend even a portion of the revenues that accrue to the Department of Highways on reconstruction of our roads, because this Ministe r h as seen the Depa rt men t of Highways construction budget not even increased by the rate of inflation, not even the rate of inflation over the past five years, while the revenues that are accumulating to that department have doubled .

Now, Madam Speaker , in any other analysis one would make of the effectiveness of this Minister, you would give him failing marks. The people of Manitoba , the driving public, the Manitoba Trucking Association and all those who deal with him, give him failing marks because he has not been able to hold up his end of his portfolio , the Department of Highways , around the Cabinet table .

The robber - baron types and the Attorney-General have made sure that his department is stripped of money, and no money is available to spend on highways unless of course it's in the Dauphin constituency where paving is even done to the acces s road to the Minister's own cabin. Now that's the kind of priorities this Minister has seen fit to place before the people of Mani toba, pavement to his cabin while the rest of Southern Manitoba does without even patching of potholes .

That's the kind of spending priorities that we see from this Minister, and then he also was the Minister again who 's responsible for the $29 million Selkirk bridge to nowhere . The bridge the engineers didn 't want , the bridge even some of the municipal councillors didn 't want, and this is the Minister that put it in at a $10 million estimate and now it's up to $29 million, Mad am Speaker . So we have no confidence in him , Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er of Highways and Transportation. 1733

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, the point of order is that the member has totally disregarded the facts of so many instances. But the ·facts are expressed in the Estimates - which he admitted he didn't attend - are that the bridge is coming in at budget, at $19 millio n; it's not 29, and it should not be left on the record. MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honoura ble Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, as I said earlier on, the Minister 's est im ate is now doub led from slightly over 10 million to slightly under 20 million. Now that's a doubling of the estimate ; he's admitted himself. Then you add in the access roads and that 's exactly where we come into. So, Madam Speaker, the Minister not only has just confirmed that he is incompetent; he's admitted that he hasn't even necessarily known what his dep artmen t is doing.

Madam Speaker , I just want to make just a few more comments, and these are for the residents of Northern Manitoba, beca use these are the people who are going . to be rolled in, to charge us that this Minister may be able to levy, by Order -in-Council, regu lations without any debate in this Chamber.

The reside nts of Northern Manitoba , by this legislation, will now become privy to the same kind of maltreatment by this New Democratic Party Government in the Department of Highways as the rest of Southern Manitoba has enjoyed, or not enjoyed shall I say, over the last five year s, a doubling of the revenues in the Department of Highways.

While this Ministe r has spent less and less money, he hasn't even kept up with inflation on maintenance and / or construc tion, and the highway system is in terrible shape because of his inability, his complete inability and lack of influence in the NOP Government to get highways as a priority. MADAM SPEAKER: The question before the House is Second Reading on Bill No. 12. The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Madam Speaker.

I'd like to close debate if no further members wish to speak on this Bill No. 12, and to clarify a few points for the record that the Member for Pembina has left on the rec ord. Unfortunately, as I've stated many times in the past, he has very little regard for the facts as they apply. In this particular instance , Madam Speaker , he has confu sed two sections of the bill and tied them together and distorted their meaning. The fact is that the

section refe rring to Northern Affairs is for grant purposes, or the Mobility Disadvantaged Program, as well as for airport s, and grant purposes being quite different than fees being levied. So Northern Affairs areas are not going to be hit by fee s from this bill. They will be eligible for grants. Now the

section dealing with the fees , is dealing with those fees now that can be put in place, can be collected for the work that is done by the Highway Traffic Board. The Highway Traffic Board considers applications for many different kinds of structures adjacent to the highw ay system, whether they be access roads or signs , tho se kinds of things. These are made by municipalities, in many instances , or by individuals. The fee that we are establishing is $50 as I've indicated.

In order to do that, to help pay for the work of the Highway Traffic Board , which is very important work in the Province of Manitoba , to collect some revenu e from their work for the service they provide, we are collecting, through this

section of the Act. Madam Speaker , it's unfortunate that the Member for Pembina was not present in the Hous e during the Estimates so that he could have had a discussion on the issues , Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER : The presence or abse nce of a member is not to be referred to. The Honourable Minister of Highway s. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I wasn 't referring to the member 's presence or absence at this particular time . I was just talking about the Estima tes process where the member admitted in his speech, Madam Speaker, that he was not present for the Estimates. He just said that.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . I would prefer if honourable members did not refer to the presence or absence of memb ers even if they themselves choose to refer to it. The Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay , Madam Speaker, it's unfortunate that the Member for Pembina was out of order on his comments and I will not make reference to his comments with regard to his presence or absence . Madam Speaker , the fact is that the Mobility Disadvantaged Program was established in 1981 with $40,000 budgeted for four communities.

During the New Democratic administration we have seen that program expand to $400,000 this coming year and servicing over 30 communities in rural Manitoba , over 40 percent of the rural residents of this province. So the tremendous expansion has taken place during the New Democratic Government .

I want to point out as well for the record, Madam Speaker, that insofar as fees are concerned , the fact is that the Manitoba Government collects fees for registration , licences and fuel in this province, but the Manitoba Government still spends more on highway related expenditures tha n it takes in, in those highway related fees and taxes - unlike the Federal Government which takes about $117 million out of this province for fuel taxes and doesn't return anything to the highway system, or very little, in the case of this year with the Yellowhead Agreement. So we do have an inequitable situation there.

If the Member for Pembina wants to make that kind of comparison, he should look at what the Federal Government takes out of Manitoba and does not return, if he 's going to blame the Provincial Government for collecting revenues in that area because we do spend all of those revenues on highway-related expenditures. 1734

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 And when we look at to urists coming int o the province, Mada m Speake r, the fact is that 1-29, the Interstate Highw ay in the States has been fun ded 90 percent by the Federa l U.S. Treasury, not by the State of North Dakota. So it's unfair to make that kin d of a comparison with our major rou tes here in this province. I think, Mada m Speaker, I wan t to leave it at tha t. Certainly, I belie ve this bill bef ore the House is going to fac ilitate the payment of grants to indi viduals and organizations rep resenting airport commissions .

The payments will not have to be made strictly to the municipalities and this is appro priate since many of those airport commissions are made up of indeed a numb er of municipalities and , in the same way, the Mobility for t he Disadv ant ag ed Program in rural Manit oba will be served by this bill; and as I said earlier , there is justification for some fee being established by the High way Traffic Board for the service that they provide and tha t is now enabled by this bill. I am pleased to see the general willin gness of the Opposition members to pass this bill and move it on to committee.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 18 - THE SECURITIES ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Bill No. 18, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I won't mention the absence of some members. I'll just mention , maybe I should mention the Member for Dauphin wasn 't here when we had our picture taken. I will take this opportunity to pass on the . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, orde r please. The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation . HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, on a matter of privilege , Madam Speaker . The speaker is well aware of my concerns about the fact that I was not able to be present during that period of time since I was paired and at a very important conference that had been set up some time earlier than the time for that photograph had been established . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member does not have a point of privilege. The Honourable for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Madam Speaker , it's unfortunate some people cannot chuckle in this Assembly . We're prepared to pass this bill onto committee . QUESTION put, MOTION carried.

BILL NO. 19 - THE LIMITATION OF ACTIONS ACT AND THE HIGHWAY TRAFFIC ACT AND TO REPEAL THE UNSATISFIED JUDGMENT FUND ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General , Bill No. 19, sta nding in the name of the Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: We're prepared to pass this bill on to committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 20 - THE CRIME PREVENTION FOUNDATION ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 20, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER : Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Just very briefly, this of course is a bill that would be very diff icult to oppose . In fac t, it is cer tain ly a proposal in pri nciple that we have long suppor ted in Opposi tion .

During the last provincial election, the Minist er and I have had numerous discussi ons duri ng Estimates on th is concept and , for the record, I certainly indicated to him at the last Session of the Legislature , in discussing the whole area of crime prevention , that if there is anything that community orga nizat ions needed - and they are a very important part of crime preven ti on solutions - they need som e a ssistanc e in the way of a meeting roo m, in the way of helpi ng them perhaps with secretarial work , in helping them communicate with the residents of their community.

Hopefully this bill will provide that assistan ce to those community org anizations , some of which have been very active and been very successful to date . Hopefully other community crime prevention groups will be encouraged to develop in the city, particularly I'm thinking of some of the very large increase s that we've seen, for example, in this area that's been discussed numerous times in this Legisl ature, and that's of breaking and entering, which is a very traumatic experience for homeowners, particularly women in the home or the elderly cit izen in a home or apartment block.

They are quite often very fea rful of going out after that or of coming back and returning to their premises at night. There have been numerous instances of break and enters on more than one occ asio n of certain premises . The numbers have increased so dramatically that it's something that simply has to be stop ped , halt ed and reduced , and hopefully if the government is able to provide some assistance to community grou ps, that will help solve that problem .

One of the difficulties no doubt will be that it's very easy to get a group going in a brief period of time and get them formed and organized , but in order to be able to maintain the enthusiasm is sometimes difficult . 1735 We're all I think quite familiar with the formation of the Block Parent organizations, your Neighbou rhood Watch organizations and I think the real challenge is not only to form them but to maintain them to be active. Hopefully , Mad am Speaker, this bill will help com munity organizations reduce some of the crime that goes on in their communities.

I'm hopeful that the Minister, in app ointing people to the board - and it's quite a large board, 15 people

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 - will rule out politics in th is particular area and appoint people who are genuinely active in community crime prevention groups. I think it would be a shame , Madam Speaker , if it became a necessity for a person to either be an NDP member when this government is in power or to be a member of the Conservative Party when we assum e office, because I think th is should be clearly , if it 's to be a successful program, comprised of people wh o are active in crime prevention community org anizati ons bec ause that is the problem.

Frankly , I'd say to the Minister , if he does that, he will reap political benefits if he rules poli tics out of the appointment of members of this board because the hopes for success of the organization I think would be vastly improved if that were done, Madam Spea ker. We're prepared to pass this bill on to com mitte e.

We'r e prepared I might say, Madam Speaker , I hope tha t t he bill has been or will be circulated to crime preventio n organizations in the communities so that they will have an opportunity to read the bill and perhaps come to committee and make some suggestions or rec om mendations to the committee when the bill is under consideration. We'll look forward to receivi ng publ ic representa tio ns on the bill. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Yes, Madam Speaker, I also rise and agree with this type of bill.

It is one that is very dear to my heart as I was first involved in crime prevention in my former role when I helped form the Crime Prevention units in the City of Winn ipeg and especially one that I was very invo lved with, the St. Boniface-St. Vital Crime Prevention Uni t. This particu lar unit - and I'll give you a little bit of history - was founded in Septembe r 1982 , and the groundwork was initiated by the officer for the district, a Mr. Hugh Coburn. He approached many residen ts in the area with his proposal for a community crime prevention organization.

When he did this , these people in the area were very receptive to the idea because of the problems with crime in all areas, but they felt par ticularly disturbed by the crime which was right close to home. The executive was formed and now the executive has been expanded to approxima tely 21 member s. The CFCA is a volunteer, it always has been a volunteer non-profit organization , working in cooperation with the Winnipeg Police Department to fight back against, as we all know, the rising rate of crime.

Now , this objective is accomplished through a Crime Prevention Education Program , stress ing citizen awareness in the particular areas. They take on the init iative to probably deter some of the crime right at home. They make people aware in the particular area of the crimes that are happening. This parti cular unit serves a population of about 100,000 people with memberships rising as much as 40,000. Th is includes the Neighbourhood Watch Programs , etc . They 're all concerned about the increase in crime and it's the reason for this particular bill.

Madam Speaker, during the first four years of the operation, CFCA conducted meetings locally, at the Norberry School mostly, for the general public. I can reme mber the first public meeting they held, they were faced with an enormou s storm that year, but they had it all set up and they wer en't disheartened with what was going on. They 've met , they 've brought in resour ce material , as I again mention , from the Winnipeg Police Department , the RCMP, th e Man itoba Police Commission , the Manitoba Youth Centre, the Block Parents and security experts, and they have the various displays.

They deal with home and business security. They dea l with sexual assau lt, Neighbourhood Watch, and many more activities. These programs , in conjunction with the taping , to tape and play back on a television playback to the entire city, and probably people in the whole city have benefited from much of the information th at was carried on in these meetings . Madam Speaker , an attempt has been probably made to better serve the community and provid e programs and service s most reque ste d by the resid en ts. They had meetings and they had people come forw ard with their concern s and these were answered.

Madam Speaker, due to the rapid growth in the community and the desire on the part of the residents - and that's a very expanding type of area - St. Vital and South St. Vital and Island Lakes - when people are moving into a new area , they 're very concerned about the crime prevention, and this CFCA has probably brought people together and brought an awareness of people getting together and helping to meet their neighbours so that they know what's going on in there.

Madam Speaker , I think this goal was accomplished . 1736 A further goal that they did - they worked very hard afte r starting in 1982 - was a goal of ope ning up a Community Crime Prevention Office in that par tic ula r area. This facility is staffed by area volunteers , coordinated by an office manager , Mrs. Mislan . She conducts and manages the office for the CFCA executive. Volunteers work on updating stats , charts, mailing newsletters , etc ., and many other duties relating onto home and business security .

They bring forward and meet with manufacturers of the locks and the window bars , security systems , alarm systems , who bring this forward. As well, they prov ide the printed material that is available to help these people who probably have been broken into and are very concerned and have already been affected by the crime and it passes onto the neighbours that also are facing the same problem .

Madam Speaker, I think the stats that were produced in June of '86 probably show that as a result of the hard work of this particular community committee, this crime prevention unit , that generally across the board - and that's not usual for Canada and it's not usual for Winnipeg - crime has decreased by over 15 percent , with a general 23 percent decrease in residential break ins. This isn 't just by fluke . I believe it's by the hard work of this particular group, along with the Winnipeg Police Department and many other people that have worked .

I guess all this work was very, very well-received and they were honoured just recently . They have been honoured by the Winnipeg Police-Southland Corporation Crime Prevention Award for 1986 and the Solicitor-General of Canada Award for Crime Prevention for 1986. So they are really the forerunners in this particular crime prevention.

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 Madam Speaker , there have been other units that have come on,

Chapter 2, the East Kildonan-Transcona Unit , and the

Chapter 3 Unit, which is St. James Assiniboia, with the same main objective s that have been established by the front runner, St. Boniface-St. Vital. Madam Speake r, the CFCA is always conscious of the needs of the community and is constantly working to implement new programs to meet these needs for crime prevention education and a way of life in their particular area and are going along helping the new units that have been established. Madam Speaker , not to go on, we're sure we're going to get another go at it at com mittee and maybe hear from some of these particular people.

Just to put on the record, in District 5, that I obtained from the Police Department just recently: Break and Enters in 1983 in the St. Boniface-St. Vital area were 1,458; and they go down in 1984 to 1,282; 1985 was 1,140 . So it shows a large decrease of almost one-quarter or 25 percent. Frauds in the area, we pulled them with the businesses in the area, and they were 431 in 1983; in 1984, they were 410; and in 1985, they were 392; which again showed a decrease of about 10 percent.

Theft under $200 - and we all know that there is an alarming rate of thefts in the particular areas of bicycles as the Member for Emerson is mentioning - 2,464 thefts in 1983; 2,167 in 1984; 2,160 in 1985; showing a decrease of 12 percent. Theft over $200 runs the same way. They show a decrease of 13 percent. Crimes against property all together show a decrease of about 3 percent; the overall decrease from 1983- 1984 of 12 percent and then the most remarkable is from 1984-1985 of 15 percent. Madam Speaker, I'll list a couple of the concerns and maybe they could be answered by the Minister in charge .

Some of the concerns of these particular groups, I'll read them out and I won't highlight on them: Question

(1) For what purposes will proposed funds be allocated? Secondly, will any funds be allocated for full-time coordinators, rent in existing crime prevention facilities that are already set up in St. Boniface-St. Vital and East Kildonan -Transcona? For these people , it's been very aware that they do need that one person who translates all these

part icular programs and keeps the thing together and works between the police and the people in the area. Already mentioned by the Member for St. Norbert to try and keep it very non-political, I guess we're all accused of that no matter what we're involved in; but maybe as a suggestion tha t maybe all the six crime prevention officers sit on the board of the Crime Prevention Foundation.

These officers change, they have no political hang ups; and as these officers are the persons who have the most knowledge that goes on in the area and have been there and they have the most knowledge of all the specific problems and needs of each district on a continuous daily basis, they would be a very good contribution to this particular committee .

In closing, Madam Speaker , one particular area that bothers me and bothers some of the groups is how does the government anticipate one central facility will have any effect in bringing about a reduction in the crime rate when each individual district has its own specific problems and needs? This has been highlig hted by concerns in each of the areas. It has been proven over the past three years , · as I've tried to emphasi ze in my stats, that a grassroots community-based organization does have a very, very , significant impact on reducing crime within its own area.

Such a facility need s to be easily accessible to these particular people in the community it serves. Thank you , Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -Gener al. HON. R.

PENNER: Just very briefly , Madam Speaker, indeed , a clear reading of the bill indicates our recognition that effect ive crime prevention must be done at the grassroots level and by the grassroots organ ization; and one of the reasons why we took pains to set it up as a foundation at arm's length is to ensure that it wasn't a questio n of the government trying to get into the field, but to assist those in the field and to encourage others who may want to organize a crime prevention community-based organizat ion to do so.

But there can be, from a centre such as the Crim e Prevention Foundation, a great deal of assistance given to the existing groups. The exac t form of that assistanc e will be flushed out in the following ways: No.

(1) There is the broad mandate within the bill itself; but, more importantly, when the first board of the foundation meets, one of its first jobs will be in fact to decide how it will spend the money which it will have - and it will have money . Similarly, I might point out, when we established the Law Foundation about a year ago, and it's now in operation - it has a broad mandate - but it was the Law Foundation itself, one of its first tasks was : How are we going to spend the money? A MEMBER: But you had decided that. HON. R.

PENNER: Well, no, in terms of a relatively small amount for a period of three years, but after three years those covered amounts disappear , and then there is, too, still the residual amounts for legal aid and for the legal education run by the Law Society , but the discretionary funds, which will be close to or in excess of $1 million, depending on prime rates, will be decid ed by the foundation. And finally, let me stress again, I agree that this should not be seen by any administration as a political instrument.

That is why the bill stresses that at least 8 of the 15 - it could be 15 - but at least 8 will be from the existing crime prevention establishment - and let me use that term. 1737 What I intend to do, and I can say so for the record, is to ask the existing groups to suggest names, and it's from that pool of names that the appointments of at least eight will be made. So I want to give that assurance to the House and, in doing so, again recognize the value of commu nity-based initiatives. QUESTION put, MOTION carried.

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 BILL NO. 21 - THE FAMILY LAW AMENDMENT ACT MADAM SPEAKER : On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General , Bill No. 21, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , just briefly, I would hope that maybe the Attorney-General could respond when closing debate, unless anyone else wishes to speak, but I would hope that he could confirm that the bill has been circulated to the Family Law Subsection of the Bar Association and perhaps could undert ake , at least within a reasonable time, to get a response from them as to the contents of this bi ll. I don't th in k there's anyth ing too significant in it, but it would be nice to know that that they'd had an opporunity to consider it and we had their response . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

HON. R. PENNER: Yes, that's a very good point, Madam Speaker, the poin t raised by the Member for St. Norbert. I can assure him that the bill has been reviewed with the Associate Chief Justice of the Family Division . It's my impression, but I'll go beyond that, that it has also been rev iewed by the head of the Family Law Department with the leading members of the Family Bar. But in the event that my impression is mistaken , I'l l assure the member that prior to reaching committee that they're fully notified and invited to comment if they're unable to get to committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried.

BILL NO. 22 - THE WATER RESOURCES ADMINISTRATION ACT AND THE REAL PROPERTY ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion, Second Reading, Bill No. 22, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker , in making a few comments to Bill No. 22, I just want to indicate that we agree in principle to the concept of what the Minister is trying to do. I just want to raise a few concerns possibly regarding this bill. It gives the Minister a fair amount of rights, and I'm not that concerned about the Minister himself, in terms of the authority that this bill will give him.

I'm a little bit more concerned about the bureaucratic system that possibly could be in place to deal with that. I would hope tha t proper discretion and common sense prevails in some of these issues when we look at what the intent of the bill is. I'm not sure , maybe the Minister can ind ica te, I believe that the Red River Valley is the only one that has been designated as a flood -prone area . Madam Speaker, invariably there 's a lot of pressure on the muncipalities, in terms of possible construction and development in some of the areas, because many people have a desire to reside close to a river.

I certainly have no objection with that. The only thing is that I think at the present ti me the regulations after the flood, I think in'79 was the last one when we had a major flood taking place, certain of the regulations came into place where construction was not going to be allowed if it was in that flood-prone area. The regrettable thing is that after the last flood, Madam Speaker , when there was a federal-provincial agreement, in terms of flood proofing for people in the Red River Valley, many people made app lic at ion.

I think the majority of them tried, but one thing that happened is that the weather cond itions and lack of equipment created some problem in terms of where some did not manage to get in under that program. As a result , we left money on the table federall y, in terms of money that could have been used for further flood proofing for some of the people in th e Red River Valley. The other thing, of course, Madam Speaker, is that there's always within the author ity of the government to designate any area a flood -pro ne area .

I would want to make very sure, and the Minister can probably make that comment in his closing statements that there 's a grandfather clause, to some degree, tha t individuals who have an exi sting situation with buildings and residences, outbuildings, machine sheds, etc. , that these would not be affected by this regul ation . Because one

section in here, Madam Speaker, gives the Minister the authority that, if he so wishes, individuals who have not complied with his regulations will not be compensated for flood damage. That's why I think sor t of a grandfather clause in there has to be - maybe the Minister can explain whether this would be just for new buildings at the present time or whether this would also affect existing situations , because that is the one area of concern that I want to highlight with the Minister , the compensation factor if there is not a proper grandfathering clause in there.

The other thing , according to the bill , if somebody puts up a smaller structure, let 's say, even a granary or something of that natu re, if the area happens to get flooded , then these individuals would not qualify for compensation; that is my

interpretation of tile bill. So, aside from the point, realizing full well that if they have to apply for a permit , they have to flood proof it properly - I'm talking of residential homes which maybe cost anywhere up to $100,000, $200,000 - I can fully appreciate that. But there is some concern I want to just bring forward to the Minister in terms of lesser buildings, because we have a lot of farms in the flood prone area that we're talking about.

For example, a farmer wants to build a granary , to some degree , on his property and - I'm just raising these concerns with the Minister - that invariably the bureaucratic system could take and have him dike this granary at considerable more cost than it would to actually construct the building.

So, that's an area I just wanted to raise with the Minister, the grandfathering clause of the new area as being designated as a flood-prone area, and the fact that lesser buildings - I'm not talking about dwellings, I'm talking of lesser farm buildings - that could be affected by this kind of a regulation, and I'd like to - incidentally, Madam Speaker, I've sent copies of the bill to the municipalities along the Red River Valley, which is a flood -prone area and I haven't had too much response to date .

I'm sure that if they have any concerns that they will be presenting that hopefully at committee level, and I just want to raise some of these concerns with the Minister, that maybe when we get to committee stage and go clause-by-clause, that we can maybe have a clarification on that. Aside from that, Madam Speaker, we're prepared to let the bill go to committee. 1738

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 MAD AM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi niste r of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , I would want to close debate on this with just a few brief comments. As the Member for Emerson has indicated , the only existing designated flood area at this time is within the Red River Valley. It is the intention of this legislation to provide for variance orders . Even without this legislation, there is the requirement for permits so that the structures are built to a level wherein they will be adequately protected against flooding .

But , within that area, as opposed to the City of Winn ipeg where within the City of Winnipeg there is a provision for variance orders in the floo d-prone areas, the re is not a provision for variance orders . This new legislation would provide for variance orders where it was not possible to meet that flood-proofing condition . In addition, Madam Speaker , there is a provision for registering the variance orders and registering, on titles , those situations in which individuals have chosen to build , not in compliance with the flood-proofing regulations.

I think that is a wise approach to take in that it insures that future purchasers of that property would be aware that either there was a variance order in place, and somebody may not be complying with an order . In terms of the new areas that might be designated, these would be des ignated under the provisions of the agreement with the Federal Government for designating flood areas . We want to insure that those people have adequate flood proofing and , where there is damage to structures and individuals have attempted to flood proof it, that there would be eligibility for compensation.

But where individuals chose to ignore or defy the regulations for flood proofing, it seems to me then that it is not unreasonable that those individuals should not be eligible for compensation. I look forward to discussing this in committee stage and we can, at that time, get further clarification on the matter of grandfathering in those areas that might be designated as flood areas in the future. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Radisson , that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Education . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C.

Baker: The committee will come to order. We are now on page 52, Sta tutory Boards and Commissions ,

Section 2.(a). Mr. Minister . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperso n, there were a couple of questions raised yesterday in committee for which we did not have a ready response, and I would like to provide that information now. The first question was with respect to the annual report. The informat ion that I have, in terms of the cost and the copi es, there were 700 cop ies printed. The tot al cost was $5,885.76.

The cost per copy was $8.40 - I think we provided the information in terms of the distribution - somewhat more than the $1.50 est imated for Fort Garry, based on the somewhat erroneous information provided in the off-the-cuff fashion in which it was provided. The former Communication 's director . A MEMBER: He just doesn't know. HON. J. STORIE: We don 't know, yes. The secon d area was in an expla natio n that we tried to provide to the member in response to his questions about the reductions in Oth er Expenditures for the Research and Planning area .

The reduction s are noted and the explanation is noted at the bottom of page 27 in the Supplementary Estimates. The explanation is, the reductions refer to reductions in surveys, such as the Teachers ' Attitude Survey , which was conducted last year, and that kind of thing will not be occurring this year. In addition, there has been reduced support to the French language research for the Bureau d'Education Frani;:ais. The research and evaluation capacity in the division has just been foreshortened , I guess, because of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. C.

BIRT: Has there been a result or a tabulation on the Teachers' Attitude Survey and, if so, is it available? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I don't believe that has been finalized. I think most of the information that the Planning and Research Branch puts togeth er is eventually tabled or is available through the library. I don't believe I have seen any final report on that . MR. C. BIRT: Thank you . Did we then go to the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund Board? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, just as an aside , the member had requested a copy of the curriculum material that had been prepared for the Family Life option . I have that information available . I'll simply provide it to the membe r. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I have a series of questions relating to the report, and it compares the date of June 26, 1986, and it relates to the year-end December 31, 1739

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 1985. Firstly, some general questions , if we go to - the page isn't marked but . . . HON. J. STORIE: Is that the annual report? MR. C. BIRT: Yes. HON. J. STORIE: I don't have a copy of that, go ahead . I'm sure staff will be able to answer any questions . MR. C.

BIRT: It's the graph that says, " Teacher s Retirement Allowance Fund Board , Compar ative Stat s, 1925 through to 1985 ." It shows contributions, one column for teachers, the other column for pro vince , and the n i t shows a column for school districts which, I presume, are school divisions now , initially starting qui te substantial con tributions, now running down to zero , if you look at I guess from'81 through to '85. Do sc hoo l d ivis ions contribute towards the Teachers' Pension Fund, or is it solely a matter between the teachers and the Province of Manitoba ? HON. J. STORIE : Mr.

Chairperson , school divisions do not contribute. It's a matter between the teachers and the province. MR. C. BIRT: So the monies that we see showed contributed by the teachers, it would represent their appropria te pension contribution paid into this fund, which is admin istered by the board? HON. J. STORIE: Correct. MR. C. BIRT: So when it shows at about 1980 - it would appear to be the last year - was there legislated change at that time, or was the matter just phased out? HON . J. STORIE: Yes, there was a legislative change . MR. C. BIRT: Thank you .

Through the initial several pages of the report, they talk about - we' re dealing now here with investments. There's Equity Investments, and I'm looking now , in particular , at page 2. It says, real estate, direct natural resources and then Venture Capital. Could someone provide me with an explanation as to what these equity investments are, in other words, what type of investments? We have the amount of money and the percent age it represents, but a little more clarification than the general phrases that are there . HON. J. STORIE: Well , Mr.

Chairpers on, I certainly am not a pensions expert, but I'd assume most pension funds distribute their plan contributions into different areas to provide some level of security and a reasonable level of return to the fund. I don 't think staff have at hand all of the different areas and the dollars that are put into each area , but we can certainly undertake to provide that. I assume that that is public or can be public information . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman , the two areas I'm generally inte rested in , because now these are permitted investments , I imagine, by the particular legislation.

I'm not trying to challenge it from that point of view; it's just that I'm curious because there's a liability that attaches and I'm just wondering what these represent. I'm more particularly interested in the Natural Resources and the Vent ure Capital because the re's references throughout the report, for example at the bottom of page 2 it says , " Investment in rea l estate mortgage Venture Capit al and direct acquisition of natural resource assets require advance commitment of funds which are paid out during , or on comp letion of construction.

" Now that would make more sense to perhaps the real estate type of investment , so are we buying, is the fund buying real estate assets per se or is this relating to the natural resources field, maybe it's Venture Capital, I don 't know, and we're talking about $22 million here of unfunded commitments . I want to know what the $22 million of unf und ed commitments are and what are we get ting into ? It says were paid out during or on completion of construction, and we're talking here, if I'm just looking at the equity investment

section , it looks like abo ut 20, maybe $22 million if that's what we're doing . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman , page 3 shows the list of commitments, bonds , mortgages , real estate equity, and the Natural Resources Venture Capital, the total of $22 million. This member can see the yield, particularly with the real estate, has been more than acceptable I think, in terms of the fund. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman , that gets me into another area of questioning because, by looking at that area that the Minister has just referred to, there are yields on bonds and mortgages but there are no yields for the real estate equity, the natural resource or the Venture Capital. Now there's an explanatory note later on, it's in Note No. 2 at the end of the report that I want some explanation on too .

But another area of questions I would like answered is, are these purely speculativ e investments, such as buying share s in the stock market, and you will ride them either up or down, or is it expected that they will start returning some yield in the future? There 's a financial statement at the end saying that , I believe, some method of financial accounting was taken into place to reflect something, and I'm not quite sure what it is and I'd like an explanation of it when we get to it.

But coming back to my basic question is, what is it that we're getting into , or at least the fund is getting into, that final paragraph on 2, what does it mean in relation to . . . I'm presuming it's just the equity investment area. HON. J. STORIE: I think maybe we should be clear that the province does not make any contribution to the fund , that the money that is being invested comes as contribut ions from the teachers . So, I think the royal "we" in this case may not be appropriate .

However, I think the other investment , the ones that the member referenced, of course, is yet to be determined what kind of return there is on those , I presume, real estate. Mr. Chairperson , the average yield, of course, is yet to be determined on these . I presume it would be 1740

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 possible to provide partial figures or something, but when there is an established average yield, that would be reflected in the numbers. MR. C. BIRT: Would it be easier if I just asked my questions and the n, perhaps at a later time you could come back with the answers? I can appreciate that it is not Government of Manitoba monies, but there is a commitment here of certain funds provided by the province on a matching grant basis when the pension benefits are paid out, so there is a provincial input. I want to get into another area of future liability .

When one looks at this type of portfolio dealing with the amount of liability or profit it may, or may not, determine the amount of the liability or commitments that the province has to meet at some future time . So I would like to try and get an explanation of just what these are. No doubt they're in someone's file and they can be readily brought out, and I just want some explanation as to what they are and what these phrases refer to because, quite frankly, they are meaningless unless you are either the chairman of the board or, perhaps, the one who did the audit for this. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman , I would be more than happy to take the questions and any that can't be answered directly to make sure that the member does get a response . I should also point out that not only are there no government funds, in terms of the investments, but the guarantees that were in place were removed as a result of legislation in 1985. So, the obligation for the province, the financial commitment, in the first instance at least , is substantially less than what it was . MR. C. BIRT: Well, let me just put it this way.

I've posed a number of questions so far and throughout - I guess it's the first eight or nine pages of the report, some of them deal with legislative change - but it's an explanation I would really like of what are we into, what's involved, and a better explanation as to what is at the bottom of page 2 when they make those general references that I refer to . And then, at the end, on page 3 of the Notes at the very end, it says " Teachers Retirement Allowance Fund" gives an explanation of some sort of funding change.

Perhaps that could be explained as well because it shows a different method of calculation as to income or return on investment, I'm not quite sure. It shows a figure, so perhaps an explanation of that area as well. HON. J. STORIE: That's on page 3 . MR. C. BIRT: It's on page 3 of the explanatory notes I presume that have been prepared either by the Auditor or someone who has worked on the fund .

Okay, I'll leave those particular areas and come to the question, as I understand the responsibility of the government generally speaking , that the liability of the government is only to provide funds when a teacher retires. In other words, they put in some sort of matching funds or percentage of funds so that when we look at the figures in here, I guess it's $23 million for this year, $23.5 million, that is really flowing directly out as pension benefits to those teachers who have retired.

Knowing that it would appear that a number of teachers are taking some earlier retirement, do we have any figure s as to what the future commitments will be? I mean last year we were at $22 million appro xim ately, or $21.5 million, this year it was under $23.5 million. Is there a future projection as to retirements and what the provincial liability will be for, because I presume it's going to be a growing amount? Do we know what it 's going to be, say, in 1995 or the year 2000? HON. J.

STORIE: Well, obviously that depend s to some extent on the number of teachers who retire, the numbe r of teachers who are deceased, the number of new or MR. C. BIRT: If I may interrupt, some will retire at 65, they have to, or generally speaking the bulk will retire at 65. Some may opt for the ealier retirement without penalty and that may be a variable , I can appreciate that. But I think if you look at your population you can expect that those who are 65, 80 or 90 percent are going to retire.

We must have some sort of liabilities that we know we're going to have to be needing in the next five or ten years, whatever the case might be. If so, if you've got that, can I see something like that ? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman , I don't have anything in front of me that would lead me to be able to give you anything definitive. I think maybe past experience is a guide, other than the 1985 year, '86 year, in which the retirement window was open for tea cher s. The average increase in expenditures from the province to pensions has been about 8 or 9 percent for the last six or seven years .

So if you project that into the future , that may be a good guess. At some point, of cou rse , we're going to reach a peak and we'll probably see some decline. 1741 MR. C. BIRT: The 6 or 9 percent , is that in bodies or in money? HON. J. STORIE: That's in percent of dollars expended. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, we have, I would think , an aging teaching population .

I mean at one time it was probably a much younger population, but with static student body and I don't think they're hiring as man y young people as they used to, so I would think the age curve would be skewing more towards the end , to the 65 range, than say 35 or 40. So would this then be accelerating say in the next years, or do we have any information on it as to what the government liability will be in a 10-, 15- or 5-year period? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, no, I don 't think I can give the member any reading into the future . I think a good guess would be in the 6 to 9 percent increase in payout.

How that is reflected in numbers of people retiring, additional numbers of people retiring, because of the aging work force is difficult to say, because they don 't just retire at one age any more . There is a 10- year range where they may or may not retire . I think the member is quite right, that we do have an aging teaching force . At some point we will have reached the peak . I don't expect that's going to happen probably for another five to ten years.

Wednesday, 6 May, 1987 MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, a 6 to 9 percent growth rate per year, I think the amount of the liability or payout from the government point of view would -probably double within , I don't know whether it would be seven or nine years, something like that. So we're looking at fairly significant sums of money within the not too distant future. I guess the question I have is, is the obligation of the province, is it a matching grant? Now there may be different formulas, but if a teacher is entitled to say $30,000 on retirement, does $15,000 come from the fund and $15,000 comes from the Provincial ·Government, or is it a different formula

whereas the province pays perhaps a lesser portion because there is a lot of earned income within the fund and, you know, he gets his $15,000, plus perhaps some earned income? The province isn 't paying 50 percent of the retirement commitment, maybe it's 30 percent or 40 percent? HON. J. STORIE: The earned income, of course, is income earned by the fund and of course that is where the fund gets the money to pay the other 50 percent of the pension. So it is a 50-50 split essentially and there is no additional money accruing to the teacher because of their investment.

Their investment is in fact the payout from TRAF to the teacher. MR. C. BIRT: Well, Mr. Chairman, if the interest rates stay low, say, for the next decade and the amount of earned income by the fund reduces, will that then force the provincial commitment to go highe r? What I'm trying to find is that we have a liability line here because of commitments to teachers. We're going to put in so much money for a certain pension formula that's been negotiated or agreed upon over a long period of time.

If we look at just the normal aging curve that the Minister talked about at the 69 percent, we know in maybe 12 or 13 years that liability will inc rease . But if the income earned by the fund, say, drops because of low interest rates or a low rate of return, will that then have a corresponding effect of increasing the amount of liability that the government will be exposed to? HON . J. STORIE: Well, the answer is no. I think maybe the member has missed the point that I raised earlier , that the guarant ee that once was attached to the fund is no longer there.

In other words, the fund and the maintenance of the fund is the responsibility of the teachers themselves. What might happe n in the kind of scenario that the member for Fort Garry develops is that in fact their contr ibutions would have to go up. Their percentage of contributions would have to go up. There is no further obligation on the province, other than to pay 50 percent of the pensions as they are paid out . So the answer is no, and I think that was one of the benefits of the 1985 amendments that we've talked about previously. MR. C. BIRT: Well, that brings me to my next point.

There's reference in here about the change in legislation and the removal of the guarantee that the Minister just referr ed to. I've been advised - now I think it's only rumour or hear say - that issue of the removal of the liability or what the government is exempt from is perhaps being debated or argued at the moment by the Teachers' Society . Now, is there an issue as to what that guarantee is, or is there any issue being challenged by the Teachers' Society as to, you know , did the government get out what they thought they were getting or in fact that area is now under negotiations and perhaps dispute. HON.

J. STORIE: There are certainly no negotiations to change any of the understandings or the details of the amendment, and I do not believe that the Teachers' Society has, in any formal way, requested any changes or raised any questions of

interpretation. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman . Maybe the question I'm about to ask has been answered previously but, when we were debating the amendment to the bill in 1985, the point was made that the average age of teachers - and I'm pulling this from memory - was somewhere around 39 years, if you looked over the whole profile of ages. I know this is only 1987. We're only a year or two beyond that .

Can the Min ister indicate to me whether this average age of people employed within the teaching professio n has dropped at all? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the answer to that question is being sought. If there has been any change up or down , it has been extremely marginal. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, that was of course used as one of the major arguing points at the tim e by those in support of the bill, that there was an unwanted skew at the higher level of people.

When I say the higher level , I'm saying the older age groups of people who wanted to retire earlier and it would, therefore, allow an opportunity for a larger number of young people to come in and to teach. I suppose that therefore then should be reflected in the average age of the profile of the 12,000 or so teachers within the profession. I'm wondering then if the Minister will undertake to provide that when he has it available t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-2-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 2nd hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	80a5a10a2ae795bb6c0e7628b8df90442838000a

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