Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 138 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-138

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Petrr Fox Vol. XXI No. 138 2:30p.m., Thursday, May 23rd, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin PI., Winnipeg R3J 3LB Bl RTLE·RUSSELL Himy E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 BRANDON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Harvey Patterson NDP 978 Garwood Ave., Winnipeg R3M 1N7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 E,MERSON Steve Derewianchuk NDP Vita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 132 Osborne St.

S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 LAKES IDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman P.C. Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man.

ROG 1KO OSBORNE Hon. I an Tu rnbull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 23 Coral berry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. 135 - 16th St. S.W., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 2W5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1W8 RHINE LAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Y8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie pc. I nglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J.

E inarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 RUPERTSLAND Harvey Bostrom NDP Manigotagan, Manitoba ROE 1 EO ST. BONI FACE J. Paul Marion Lib. 394 Gaboury Place, Winnipeg R2H OL4 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave.,Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George M inaker P.C. 318 Ronald St., Wtnnipeg R3J 3J8 ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 s T. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 418 Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste.

Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 SOURIS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man. ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ran McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 1171 Westwood Dr.,Thompson R8N OG8 TRANSCONA Hon.

Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M. Petursson NDP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY I.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, May 23 , 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 38 19 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where we have 56 students, Grades 10 and 11 standing of the Daniel Mcintyre School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Rohs. This school is located in the constitu ency of the Honourable Member for Wellington. And we have 30 students, Grade 5 standing, of the St. Malo School. These students are under the direction of Sister Berthe Alarie.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Mines. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I have a report of the Flood Forecasting Committee relative to Winnipeg River Flood outlet. I'm just going to give copies of it to the honourable members.

MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. MATTER OF URGENCY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Member from Charleswood, that the House do now adjourn to consider a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely: That the Government of Manitoba initi ate immediate steps to negotiate with the Government of Alberta regarding the increased supply of gas to the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company, in view of the announcement this morning that the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company, effective immediately, there will be no new gas con nections made within the City of Winnipeg to either private or commercial buildings.

This announcement means that there will be a serious disruption in the economy of the province, construction will cease on new homes, hospitals, nursing care homes and public buildings. It would also cause serious high unemployment. MR. SPEAKER: As prescribed under our Rule 27, first procedure is five minutes of debate indicating urgency of debate, not urgency of matter.

The other item I'd like to mention to all honourable members, since we have had the rule change, I would consider it more appropriate instead of making the motion to adjourn the House, to make it that we set aside the business as the rule calls for, which would be more appropriate. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The urgency of the debate, Mr. Speaker, for the government to contact or initiate discussion with the Government of Alberta so that the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company can have an increased supply of gas in order to serve the people of Winnipeg. Mr.

Speaker, the Government of Alberta has not said that they will not increase the supply of gas but they have said ... MR. SPEAKER: Again I must say, not the urgency of matter, but the urgency of debate The honourable member's getting into the matter of the question. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the decision has to be made within the next few days to decide whether the construction industry and the economy of the province will suffer in this city. Mr.

Speaker, I have some knowledge of the construction industry, and if there is going to be no more hook-ups of gas in the City of Winnipeg, that means that the public buildings and more especially the housing that is very much required in this city at the present timewill be stopped immediately. It also means, Mr. Speaker, that the supply industry ...

3820 May 23 , 1974 MATTER OF URGENCY MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Again the honourable member's debating the issue and not the urgency of debate. Would he kindly conform? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm trying to stay with the urgency of the debate because of the economy of the province.

The urgency is, that as of today because of the announcement by the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company, there will be no hook-ups for gas to houses or public buildings; tha t the construction industry will probably have to close.down, the houses which are badly needed in this province will have to be stopped, people who· are in need of housing at the present time will not be able to move in them because there will be no heating in the houses. It is urgent because of the senior citizens homes that we are building will not be able to have senior citizens live in them because there will be no heating, Mr. Speaker.

The urgency also means that suppliers of equipment who have stocks of equipment to supply the heating equipment to houses will sit with the investment. It also means, Mr. Speaker ••. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Again the honourable member is debating the issue and the matter itself, and it may be urgent, but the question that is befor � the House is urgency of debate -whether there are other avenues of debate or whether it cannot be debated, and that's what I wish the honourable member would apply himself to. . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, with your ruling the way it is, the only sentence that I can make is that the urgency of debate is, that there will be complete chaos in the City of Winnipeg immediately if we have people laid off, because they can't do any installations of the heating equipment because all the equipment is required that is going into buildings that require gas will not be supplied. And, Mr.

Speaker, if the people that will be put out of work because of the urgency of this debate is not done, or the urgency of having gas in this province is not of a serious consequence to be debated in this House, I really don't know what is right now. Right now, Mr. Speaker, the urgency is that the construction industry could possibly not be building any houses or having houses moved into until at least next spring if the decision or the announce ment of the gas company is carried through. And, Mr.

Speaker, if that isn't urgent to the City of Winnipeg from the point of view of public housing, houses and employment and economic, I don't know what is. And it's very obvious, Mr. Speaker, that some of the members who are not really concerned about the construction business don't realize what the urgency of the de bate is. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister oflndustry and Commerce) (Brandon East) : Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that although the problem is a critical problem, nevertheless every thing that is required to be done is being done by the government at the present time and there fore there is no urgency of debate. I have spent most of yesterday and part of today on the telephone with the federal Minister of Energy, the Honourable Donald Macdonald, advising him of the situation. I have also had lengthy discussions by telephone with the Minister of Mines and Minerals, the Honourable Bill Di ckie of Alberta, apprising him of the situation.

I've also had discussions with the officials of the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company about the matter and, Mr. Speaker, . . . MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. You have admonished the Member for Sturgeon Creek for not dealing with the question of urgency. What the Minister of Industry and Commerce is doing right now is participating in the very debate that we're seeking to precipitate and this is really the kind of information that we should be getting during the course of a debate.

I would presume from the Minister's remarks that he's arguing for the urgency of a debate, and in that event he should be saving his remarks for the debate when I am sure you will allow the debate to proceed, because it is a matter that does require debate. And what the Minister is doing now is carrying on the debate that will follow after you've made your ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member has made his point of order. It is well taken but I have allowed a certain amount of latitude to one side and I am going to do the same to the other.

The Honourable House Leader wish to speak to the point of order. MR. GREEN: Just on the point that is raised by the Honourable Member for Morris. If the motion were put to the extent that a debate is necessary to determine what is happening, then I would possibly concede that he is making a point, but the direct wording of the motion is so that there is urgency for debate, so that negotiations can commence, and if that is the reason for urgency, that the negotiations can commence, then I submit that the Minister is

May 23 , 197 4 3821 MATTER OF URGEN CY (MR. GREEN cont'd) .. ... entitled to say that that is taking place and that removes the platform for urgency. --(Interjection)--That is exactly what he is attempting to say. --(Inter jection)--Well, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek has indicated that there is an urgency for debate so that certain steps can be taken, and once he makes his foun dation for urgency that those steps be taken, then I submit that the Minister is perfectly entitled to say that the steps are being taken, there is no urgency of debate, because that is the basis of the motion.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): On the point of order, the honourable member is in a position, the Honourable Minister is in a position to certainly indicate that steps are being taken consistent with the claim for the emergency. The honourable member has indicated that he has taken steps which he may consider important, but they do not deal with the urgency of the debate, which is a discussion and negotiation between the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Alberta. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I was endeavouring to indicate that we feel that the situation is in hand so that there is no urgency of debate in our opinion, and I have attempted to indicate how the situation is in hand, Sir, as briefly as I possibly can. I b elieve everything that is pos sible is being done, that is everything by the Governm ent of Manitoba that's within the juris diction of the Government of Manitoba is being done.

We are in constant contact with the utilit)' involved, Greater Winnipeg Gas Company, and I want to advise honourable members that we are in the process of discussions with Ottawa and with Edmonton. And I could also advise honourable members that the Honourable Bill Dickie, the Minister responsible for Energy Supply in Alberta, indicated to me that he was optimistic that further gas could be supplied on an interim basis. I so advised the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company; they're considering this course of action and I expect them to get back to me very shortly. Mr.

Speaker, I submit again that everything that is required to be done on the part of the Province of Manitoba is being done, and there is no point- I don't see any positive results coming out of a debate on this particular matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Well, Mr. Speaker, I presume you are going to allow the debate because . • . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member may be making an error in his presumption. I haven't made a decision yet. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well then I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that a majority of the members here feel a debate has been going on for the last ten minutes and I hope that you will rule that the debate will be allowed to continue, if only for the one reason that hasn't been mentioned yet. I believe it's for the first time in Canada's history that a product which is being exported abroad has been denied licence to be used within this country, and I think this is a very serious matter.

And I think it is urgent, I think it is extremely urgent that there should be a debate about this matter that perhaps if only through the result of the debate that we get our colleagues in Ottawa to look into a very serious matter, where raw material can be exported out of the country yet a licence or more of the product is denied within Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is debating the matter. The Chair has had some difficulty because it has had no real direction as to what the honour able members really desire.

I can inform the honourable members there is room for debate on this matter and it doesn't necessarily mean urgency at this present time. Concurrences in respect to Consumer Affairs is still available to the honourable members and is coming up shortly. Therefore I rule the matter out at this present time. Industry and Commerce as well. Oral Questions; Orders of the Day.

3822 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. May 23 , 1974 MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, further to the information supplied by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce with reference to the purchase of gas from Alberta, I wonder if he can indicate whether there is a commitment from Alberta to now supply gas until this matter is settled or until the national energy policy is settled. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR.

EVANS: The position of the Government of Alberta is that they wish to assess their provincial requirements, which will be done at a set of hearings in about June of this year, after which the Alberta Government , the Alberta Cabinet, will be making a decision on the availability of gas for consumer s outside of the Province of Alberta. However, as I indicated, the Minister responsible, Mr. Dickie, indicated that there was all likelihood of interim supply being granted very quickly. I might add, Mr.

Speaker, for the information of the honourable member, the Honourable Le ader of the Oppos ition, that all three utilities were represented in Calgary with me at a meeting, an extensive meeting, last Thurs day at which we discu ssed the matter in general, and at that time Grea ter Winnipeg did not expect that it would be faced with a shortage of supply so soon. What happened in effect was an underestimation of their growth load or demand for their particular commodity and their particular services. MR. SPIV AK: Yes .

I wonder, then, if the Minister can confirm that both he and his Department's advisers did not anticipate this particular situation arising and are only aware of it, or have only become aware of it within the last week. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we have been aware of this for some months. Discussion s were held. We were aware of the general situation for some months and we have had a number of discussio ns with the Alberta Govern ment.

The Premier discussed the matter with Premier Lougheed in general, and it was fully expected that Greater Winnipeg Gas would have received additional supply for one more year at the hearing of the Energy Resources and Conservation Board of Alberta last April. However, there was an intervention filed by certain Alberta gas utilities, therefore a hearing was required. This delayed the procedure; this was unexpected; and as a result today Greater Winnipeg is faced with a shortage. But, Mr.

Speaker, I want to elaborate by saying that the amount that Greater Winnipeg requires or requested was less than lOO billion cubic feet and the Alberta authorities could have granted this without a hearing. But as I said, because of the interventions made, they felt that it was necessary to have the hearing. Unfortunately Greater Winnipeg seems to have been caught up in some red tape that they did not anticipate, and secondly, they also underestimated their growth in the demand curve. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel) : Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister.

It's on the same topic, With the conference that has been held, the National Energy Conference, and other meetings pursuant to that, was there not any sort of a discussion or agreement that would place Canadian consumers in a priority position over exports outside of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere) : Mr.

Speaker, while the subject of natural gas supply and pricing was not a specific item of agenda discussion at the previou s Energy Conferences which were preoccupied exclusively with oil, I might nevertheless indicate to the Honourable the Member for Riel that it is an implicit part of National Energy Board policy that before exports are approved, exports of natural gas are approved, that it has to meet the test of, first, the exporter provide assurance that Canadian domestic requirements will be met.

What is at issue in this particular case is presumably disagreement as to price at which additional supplies will be made available, MR. C BAlK: Mr. Speaker, I didn't gather from the Minister of Industry and Commerce comments that it was a matter of price, I gathered it was a matter of supply. Can I ask the First Minister or the Minister of Industry and Commerce whether any discussions or com plaints or otherwise have been aired or held with the Department of--or with the National Energy Board? MR. EVANS: May I apologize to the honourable member. I didn't hear the last half of his question, I' m sorry.

Would he mind repeating it? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the ques tion is whether there have been any discussions with the National Energy Board on this matter apart from the Minister of Energy Donald Macdonald, has there been any discussions directly with the NEB?

May 23 , 1974 3823 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, our normal channel is to go to the Minister. My staff has been in touch with the Na tional Energy Board. I am advised by the Honourable Don Macdonald that he has spoken, in the absence of the Chairman he has spoken to the Vice Chairman of the Energy Board. They are involved also, because they have to approve a length of pipeline about seven miles in dimension, but I have had assurances that this would be expe dited by the National Energy Board. I want to say also, Mr.

Speaker, that the Government of Manitoba has consistently taken the position in many hearings of late before the National Energy Board with regard to the exportation of natural gas. We have taken the position that we are concerned about the level of exports of natural gas in Canada, from Canada rather, and we' ve made this point known very well. I agree the policy of Canada is that there should be no exportation of natural gas until Canadian domestic needs are satisfied, and obviously this is not the case. There is a tempo rary shortage due to regulation and other matters in Manitoba. Therefore ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is stretching it. The Honour able Member for R iel. MR. CRAIK: Could I ask the Minister again the first question: Is it a matter of price or supply? MR. EVANS: It's really a matter of both, Mr. Speaker. The Alberta Government does believe that natural gas is underpriced and therefore is looking towards getting higher prices from various utilities across Canada including the Trans-Canada Pipeline, but in this particu lar situation, in this specific instance it's a matter of regulation of the gas supply. Greater Winnipeg has an amount lined up in Alberta.

It's a matter of regulations that have to be con tended with. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): I direct this question to the Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister inform the House what road construction work will be contained in the Nort hern Manitoba DREE Agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of No rthern Affairs. HON. RON McBRYDE (Minister of No rthern Affairs) (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, the agree ment isn't officially signed but the province has agreed to certain proposals and since they have been announced I guess I could re-announce them. One is the improvement of 16 miles of Provincial Road 392 that runs to Snow Lake; the improvement of 60 miles of Provincial Road No. 391 between Lynn Lake and Thompson and between Thompson and the junction of Highway No. 10; and the improvement of 17 miles of Provincial Road No. 304 that runs north towards Manigota gan from the Winnipeg River; and finally the construction of a road link from Easterville west to Highway No. 10. Mr.

Speaker, it should be emphasized that we certainly welcome the Federal Government's willingness to participate with us in this program, but the thing has not been officially approved by the Federal Government as of yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. I'm wondering since the May 3rd meeting which the Honourable Minister held with the federal Transport Minister if the Minister is prepared now to announce any changes re the expanded use of the Port of Churchill in this province. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the meeting that was scheduled for May 3rd was postponed at the request of the federal Minister so there was no meeting--at least I think I've got the dates. We've had so many meetings-- I think that was the one that was postponed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

Did the Gr eater Winnipeg Gas Company indicate to the Minister that if they receive approval of increased gas right now, it would take almost six months to get it to the people in Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR.

EVANS: Yes, they indicated it would take a matter of months, but this would not stop construction because presumably the additional pipeline facility required by Trans Canada Pipeline would be put in place over the summer and therefore the home builders or other con tractors in the City could proceed with construction, expecting the gas to be available this coming fall.

3824 May 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister. Did the Minister of Industry and Commerce in Alberta indicate that they were doing a report regarding their own consumption that would take six months before they made a decision? MR. EVANS: I'd like to ask the member whether he meant the Minister of Industry or did he mean the Minister of Mines and Minerals? MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Minister he was in negotiation with in Alberta. MR. EVANS: Mr. Dickie, the Minister responsible for gas allocations, indicated that there would be a hearing or a series of hearings in June.

They expected a report, the Cabinet expected a report by July or August, and that they would be able to make a decision by September. This was more or less their time frame. MR. F. JOHNSTON: My last question, Mr. Speaker. If the decision is made in September it will then take approximately six months to get the gas to people in Manitoba. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the Honourable Mr. Dickie said that he was hopeful and quite optimistic that they could obtain interim supply immediately, or if not immediately, within a matter of days or a couple of weeks, approval for interim supply. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): My question is to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. Has the Minister of Industry and Commerce met with the house building industry in Manitoba to offer some assistance and perhaps give direction to type of installation the builders should be putting in the houses. They may have to resort now to elec tric heat or some other form of heat. Has the Minister met with the building industry and offered some assistance in this respect? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I have not. This is a matter that came upon us very sudden ly and I'm hopeful that the problem will be solved soon. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary. Will the Minister be meeting with the house building industry, because I think it's very important because • .. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we will do everything that's necessary and required to assist industry in the province, including the house building industry if that is the case. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. Could the First Minister inform the House whether a decision has been made regard ing the provision of provincial assistance towards the cleaning up of flood-damaged premises? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated to the House the other day that we were attempting to organize through the offices of the Student Employment and Manpower Office, a mechanism by which student manpower could be made available for the purpose of assisting those who require assistance in cleaning up dwelling premises as a result of flooding in the past 30 days, or as a result of the flooding that took place in basements in the past week, the past few days in the City of Winnipeg, and I am able to confirm that through the offices of the Student Manpower Program that students will be available, through this program, for purposes of assisting pensioners and those infirm and handicapped with the cleaning up of basement flooding and premise flooding wherever such may have occurred, in the City of Winnipeg and outside of the City of Winnipeg, We expect that by this weekend, that is to say tomorrow, Saturday, Sunday, that several hundred students will be available through Student Employment for this purpose.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. I wonder if he can indicate whether there has been a commitment given by the Winnipeg Gas Company to the government that they will complete the installations for homes that are now almost complete with respect to gas heating, including commercial and industrial buildings, pending the approval and the ultimate supply, even in the interim basis, of the gas require ments; Is there a commitment that they will proceed with the installations and the completion of them? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The president indicated that they would fulfill these

May 23, 1974 3825 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. EVANS cont'd) ..... commitments but they are not in a position to take new applica tions that come in fresh as of now, but those that they have received and accepted will be honoured. MR. SPIVAK: Well then, based on the information that's supplied that they are not in a position to take new commitments, will this affect the house building industry in Manitoba? MR. EVANS: Well if one wants to assume that no further supply is forthcoming in the near future, you know, if you want to assume the worst with regard to gas supply, obviously there will be some effect.

I suspect what will happen is that the builders will be looking to alternative sources of home heating, for example, such as electric power heating or perhaps oil heating, but I would indicate, Mr. Speaker, again that the level of demand for housing and other structures is extremely high in Winnipeg indicative of the buoyant economy, so much so that the utility in question did underestimate the rate of growth in the city. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture.

It pertains to a reply he gave to a question I asked about a week ago in regard to the delay in renewing the licenses of the artificial insemination technicians in Manitoba. Would he now confirm to the House--he mentioned at that time that the delay was being the subject of internal discussions. Would he now confirm to the House that those technicians who have applied for renewal licenses have been requested to come to Winnipeg for personal interrogation and their licenses will only be renewed if they sign an agree ment to purchase semen only from the Provincial Semen Distribution Centre? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I know that there are discussions under way with respect to the way in which we want to handle the program and that is part of it, but it is not in the context that the honourable member suggests. MR. BLAKE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Would he be in a position to inform the House when the renewal licences will be forwarded to the technicians in order that they may continue to operate legally within the Province of Manitoba? MR. USKIW: Again, Mr.

Speaker, because of the changes taking place, this is a matter that will be announced in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I just received in the past few minutes several copies of the supplementary report of the City of Winnipeg Boundaries Review Commission, and inas much as the Commission was requested to report back by the 23rd of May, I would ask for leave to make available copies, five copies to the clerk. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce regarding the earlier topic. Can he advise whether any moves have been made to switch over industrial consumers of large quantities of natural gas to other sources of energy supply, and I ask him particularly whether Manitoba Hydro, which burns natural gas in some of its plants - particularly at Brandon, but has optional facilities available to it - will be switching over to make that gas available to domestic consumers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR.

EVANS: Well I agree with the, I suppose the implication of the quest ion that resi dential consumers should take priority. I don't believe the utility, the Greater Winnipeg Gas utility, has considered at this point in switching from existing contracts with industrial cus tomers to virtually what amounts to its non-existent customers or potential customers. I want to emphasize that there is no suggestion of existing contracts being affected.

Those residential commercial and industrial customers are guaranteed of continuous gas supply and there is a contractual obligation by the utility to not only residential and commercial but also to their industrial customers. With regard to the example referred to at Brandon, that particular utility, the Manitoba Hydro Thermo Plant at Brandon, is serviced by Plains-Western Gas Company which is another utility.

I pose that as an alternative to the officials of Greater Winnipeg Gas as a possibility of interchange between other Manitoba utilities that may have some surplus but apparently there's some difficulties in this respect. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I didn't quite get the tail end. I gather then that some nego tiation has gone on regarding switching the natural gas from the Hydro plant at Brandon

3826 May 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ..... possibly to the Greater Winnipeg company. MR. EVANS: No , Mr. Speaker, no such negotiations have gone on. What I'd indicated was that the plant at Brandon is supplied by a different company, Plains-Western (Manitoba) Limited, and as such it would therefore be a matter of interchange between the two utilities, but I've suggested this as a short term emergency measure to the Greater Winnipeg Gas people. But as I indicated, there apparently are some difficulties in this respect. MR.

CRAIK: I wonder if the Minister can advise whether the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company has cut off interruptible gas supply to industrial companies in order to divert it for domestic use. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the question of the interruptible supply is just that - interruptible supply; and those existing customers that have interruptible contracts, which include incidentally, Mr. Speaker, hospitals--all the hospitals in Winnipeg are on an industrial interruptible basis which I found rather surprising, but that is the case. A great deal of the industrial customers are not really industry customers as such.

This I don't believe has been considered because, as I indicated, we're not talking about any existing customers of the utility. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines, Natural Resources and Environmental Management, the Minister responsible for the Water Control Division of the department.

Is the Minister prepared to indicate to the City of Winnipeg that his department will consider assistance with respect to the Sturgeon Creek waterway in the particular areas, the difficulty on Portage and perhaps Ness and Hampton Street, as obviously new construction will have to be required there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: I'm not sure the honourable member is referring to financial contribution assistance. If so, I would think that it would have to come within the confines of the Flood Assistance Program to municipalities, which has already been announced.

If the honourable member is also referring to technical assistance, I'm sure that that type of co-operation would generally be forthcoming. I'm not at this point certain that the aspect that the honourable member refers to comes within the Flood Assistance Program, but if it does, certainly they would be able to make application. MR. ENNS: A supplementary question.

As I would interpret the Flood Assistance Program it would be to replace as was, and my question really is that it's rather obvious that there is probably some major new works that have to be instituted, particularly on Portage A venue, with respect to the Sturgeon Creek. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, there is a program, provincial- municipal program, with regard to major streets, that goes through the Department of Urban Affairs and the Depar tment of Highways, and I'm not at the moment certain but I would think that it would be appropriate to see whether it can come within the confines of that program. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Honourable the Attorney General as the Minister responsible for the Liquor Commission. My question arises out of the information recently released by the Chairman of the Manitoba Liquor Commission, or Liquor Control Board, that a dry table wine available both in red and white has been recently released and named Reserve de Lili in honour of the First Minister's wife. Now my question to him is, could he perhaps supply us with a list of the other Cabinet members• wives so that we could familiarize ourselves with the anticipated new Manitoba Wines List? MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the House Leader. I wonder if we've reached the stage in the proceedings of this session where the House Leader could give the House some idea of the number of bills which his government intends to introduce. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would say that there would be approximately ten more or less. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, my question's to the Honourable Minister of Consumer

May 23, 1974 3827 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. McKEN ZIE:cont'd) .... . Affairs. It's related to a news service item dated May 3rd wherein the item states that the Minister of Industry and Commerce speaking at Lloydminster, that he was going to meet with the Honourable Jean Marchand on ... MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, can I ask why the news service quotes articles that are not truthful? It said that the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce would meet on May 3rd with the Honourable Jean Marchand. No correction ever came across my desk and I wonder why it wasn't corrected. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister regarding his earlier announcement regarding flood assistance. I wonder if he can advise whether the government has given any further consideration to some form of financial assistance because of the damage in the area as a result of the torrential rains. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, I had a meeting at noon today for approximately two hours with representatives of the City of Winnipeg in order to ascertain whether the City of Winnipeg had any course of action under way in terms of estima ting the numbers of households affected and the approximate amount of damage, and the City of Winnipeg is proceeding with a survey to make such a determination, following which we would want to be advised whether the municipal authority will want the application of a flood compen sation program that might involve some municipal contribution, the parameters of which were discussed with the city as well.

At the same time, we have communication under way to Ottawa today to ascertain whether the kind of damage that was sustained as the result of the 3. 6 inches of rainfall last weekend comes under the ambit of the Federal-Provincial Peacetime Disaster Compensation Program. We expect to have definitive indication or we hope to have definitive indication in that respect next week as well as further word from the city as to its desires in this respect . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): I direct a question to the First Minister and the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

The whole discussion as far as water damage is concerned has been centred around a few thousand basements in Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. WATT: The question is, what is the province doing in regard to the millions of acres of land that are flooded throughout the Province of Manitoba that is multiplied a hundred per cent of the damage that has occurred in Winnipeg through Sturgeon Creek or whatever area you want to refer to? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, on the 30th of April an Order-in-Council was passed which designated certain watersheds as being areas in which persons suffering damage as a result of flooding by whatever natural cause would be eligible to apply for assistance, and in looking at the appendix which designates the watersheds in question, which covers the pro perty damage in question, I do note the Souris River along with approximately 20 other water sheds in the province, so that I don't think it can be said that we have not made provision for flood damage wherever it has occurred. MR. WATT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I'm not referring to flood damage. I'm referring to the fact that the farmers cannot put a crop in. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. WATT: Well, the Honourable Minister says, what are we supposed to do? MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. WATT: I am asking the First Minister what provision is going to be made for those farmers, and it's practically over the whole southwest or the southern area of Manitoba that we can't put our crops in. There hasn't been an acre sowed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, two points.

The first point is that under the terms of the--Well, first of all I would indicate to my honourable friend something which he more than most people very well knows, and that is that until about the lOth of June it is too early to assume that wheat cannot be seeded and until about the last week of June it is too early to

3828 May 23, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ..... assume that barley or oats can't be seeded. So it is still premature to assume that fields that are pretty wet right now will not yet be seeded before the end of the seeding season, which stretches all the way until the end of June, and in fact I can recall, Sir, when barley was seeded about the 3rd of July, so therefore.

The second point is that under the terms of the Federal-Provincial Peacetime Disaster Financing Agreement, that it is not possible to provide assistance in the case of such damages as might be recoverable at law or insurable under existing insurance programs. MR. WATT: A further supplementary question. I'd like to ask the Minister where you would find barley seed right now, or oats. MR. SCHREYER: Well right now, Mr.

Speaker, I would agree that I can't see barley being seeded but I am perhaps, unlike the Honourable Member for Arthur, just a little optimis tic that before the end of the month of June that substantial acreages will be seeded, if not to wheat then to barley, but hopefully even to wheat, and until the lOth of June it is still not too late. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a final question from me to the Minister, or the Attorney General. Can he supply us with a list of the liquors that are to be delisted from the Manitoba Liquor Commission? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PA WLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I don't think there would be any difficulty in that, as soon as the list has been prepared in its complete form. ORDERS OF THE DAY -GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you'd now proceed to the bills standing on the Order Paper, debates on second reading. BILL NO. 55 MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable First Minister. Bill No. 55. The Honourable Member for Souris- Killarney. A MEMBER: Not here. MR.

SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Attorney-General, Bill No. 58. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: On the bill standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney, the member is ill and it's doubtful that he'll be back for some time, and I've been attempting to get in contact with him. But I think that we would be prepared to let this bill go rather than keep it on the Order Paper as named, unless somebody else wants to speak on it. But I think that it can be removed from the name of the Member for Souris Killarney. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. J.

PAUL MARION (St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just a few comments with respect to Bill 55. I can readily appreciate what the attempt is in excluding from muni cipal taxes organizations that are representative of cultural and recreational endeavours.

It would seem to me that everyone in this House can readily understand that in the three cases, the three specific cases referred to in this Bill, there is no doubt that any kind of financial aid will help the organizations who are operating these cultural and recreational endeavours to at least break even, and this would not be the case, of course, if the tax-exemption status is not given to the three of them. !think, Mr. Speaker, the City of Winnipeg had an experience with respect to the former St.

Boniface Cultural Centre, the organization whichpreceded Le Centre Culturel Franco Manitoba in and the Municipal Governm ent realized then that it had a responsibility of sub scribing some $27, 000 which amounted to the municipal taxes that were levied on this particu lar establishment. I think that there is an inequity, however, even after having said that, Mr.

Speaker, and that inequity is that the municipal governments, by the very fact that we' re con templating to pass such a measure as Bill 55, will have to carry the entire load, and I don't think that this really is the kind of situation that should prevail when already munic ipal govern ments are having the kind of financial difficulties in meeting their responsibilities as they are presently. I think that the First Minister, when he introduced this measure, mentioned that

May 23, 1974 3829 BILL 55 (MR. MARION cont'd) ..... of course the establishments in question would be removed from the assessment roll. I would like to suggest that this does not give the possibility, how ever, of the municipal governments meeting the kinds of responsibilities that they have none theless. I think one has but to look at the situation which prevails in Brandon to realize that the situation there can reach rather alarming proportions. The Keystone Centre in Brandon, or the City of Brandon, had an agreement with the Provincial Government whereby they shared deficits on a 50-50 basis.

Well, with one clean swoop--and I must add that in this sharing there were tax revenues to the Municipal Government of Brandon of some $115, 000. --(Interjection)- ! hear a little voice shouting "no," from his seat, Mr. Speaker, and I would say that the Mayor of the City of Brandon should know wherefor he speaks and he is the person who told me or gave me the information that I am now quoting. -- (Interjection)-- I get my information from all sorts of sources, Mr. Speaker.

But I feel that there are a number of precedents being set here that are rather dangerous and in the case of the City of Brandon can affect the ratepayer of that city in some large mea sure. If in essence, then, we had an agreement that existed with the province, between the City of Brandon and the Province of Manitoba, and with one swoop of the pen we revoked that agreement and we then leave the city in this kind of situation where it is then deprived of tax revenue of $115, 000, Mr. Speaker, the-- (Interjection)--of course it was in their budget. It was included in the revenue side of their budget. And, Mr.

Speaker, over and above this, the agree ment called for a 50-50 sharing of deficits. Now you've removed that $115, 000, which is a great deal more than the share of the deficits which were, in 19 73, $70, 000, you're in essence asking the City of Brandon to pick up an additional $45, 000. And that's not all, Mr. Speaker, because there were some other factors to be considered.

The Province of Manitoba did obtain revenues from the operation of the Keystone Centre inasmuch as they received receipts from telephone services, hydro-electric power, and everyone realizes that there's a margin of pro fit in these receipts and I am told that the utilities yield an amount of profit into the operation of the provincial coffers, and there's no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that this further affects the defi cit picture that now the City of Brandon by itself will have to pick up. I think, Mr. Speaker, there are further things to be considered.

The local improvement balance with respect to the Keystone Centre is $30, 000 today. Now that means in essence that the City of Brandon will have to make this up out of current revenue. That represents almost one mill because I said a moment ago, Mr. Speaker, that a mill is the equivalent of $50, 000 in the City of Brandon. I think that although the aims and objectives of the bill are honourable, I think that consideration should be given to the municipal governments that are faced with pick ing up the entire tab. And I think that the

section that deals with the fact that we will not, the province is not ready to grant, to give grants in lieu of taxes, it would seem to me should be revised, and the First Minister could perhaps look at the situation that prevails particularly with respect to the Keystone Centre where I feel that this city is really going to be handicapped by this measure. Mr. Speaker, I think that there's another situation that can't be forgotten with respect to Brandon and I know I referred to this kind of situation when I talked of Assiniboine Park.

I'm now referring to the equity portion that the City of Brandon has in the Keystone Centre. It personally put up an amount of $1. 6 million. The Federal Government put up a further $500, 000 and there were public subscriptions to the tune of $900 , 000. So you have a facility where contributions of 3. 1 million were made by other than the Provincial Government, and the province itself included one million dollars. The total cost of that project was $4. 1 million.

It would seem to me that the municipal government has already demonstrated its interest in its centre and has made all of the financial contributions that we could expect it to make. This would further serve the cause that I'm trying to, or the point that I'm trying to make with the First Minister, that already a great deal of contribution has been made by the municipal government.

Surely the province can grant in lieu of these taxes that are being foregone, should grant to the municipal government the amounts of money necessary for it to at least meet the kinds of obligations that were referred to by my honourable friend from Sturgeon Creek. And I'm referring now to the kinds of services that are ongoing and that will have to be picked up by the remaining ratepayers if you remove that revenue of $115, 000. With respect to the City of Winnipeg, it is being asked to give up $350, 000 in back taxes.

I think that here again the City of Winnipeg has a number of financial responsibilities that it

3830 May 23, 1974 BILL 55 (MR. MARION cont'd) ..... will find very difficult to meet if at least this portion of back taxes cannot be considered when the First Minister takes into account the pleading that some of us have been doing with respect to Bill 55. I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that this is a very substantial amount--( Interjection)--Well, I would rest my case. The First Minister says that the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg has agreed to forego this $350, 000 -am I right? And the Finance Committee have agreed.

It would seem to me that they are being much more liberal since I left, with the amounts of money that are being dispensed. In any event I will not stress the case of the Art Gallery. I think that my case has been withdrawn by the fact that the Committee of Finance have agreed. But I think I have a strong case and I can make a strong case for the Keystone Centre.

I think that there should be some very serious consideratio n given to the City of Brandon because it is being asked a large financial sacrifice and, on the other hand, we're supers eding an agreement without having given it any forewarning and I feel that this again lends to the fact that the financial considerations there should be given certainly more consideration. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable First Minister will be closing debate. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I listened very closely to the remarks of the Honourable the Member for St.

Boniface and I would not want to embarrass him by what I am about to say. He is one of those honourable members whom I lis ten to very closely because I sincerely believe that politics is not such with him that he is prepared for the sake of it to engage in deceit and deception, and he is not one of those who is likely to rise in this Chamber and try to pretend that four is eight or that 55, 000 cubic feet per second will cause less flooding than 28, 000, or similar manners of deception and outright dishonesty. So my honourable friend the Member for St. Boniface holds a place of high esteem, I think, with many.

All the more rea son, Mr. Speaker, why I am disappointed that he has, however, allowed himself to be deceived or misled, because in his analysis which I gather he was helped to arrive at by briefings and information that he obtained in diverse ways, he seems to have really quite a substantial mis understanding as to the background which lies behind this bill with respect to the Keystone Centre and also with respect to this bill's effort to clear up the matter of the financing of the Winnipeg Art Gallery and municipal taxes. And I will attempt, Mr.

Speaker, to take a run at this in as brief and clear a way as I can. First of all, my honourable friend the Member for St. Boniface, and others who have spoken, including the Member for Brandon West, make a great deal about the point that the City of Brandon is being asked to forego a certain amount of municipal taxation by virtue of the fact that Keystone under this bill will not be subject to municipal taxes. I'd like to advise my honourable friends that the predece ssor to the Keystone Centre - the Provincial Exhibition Properties - never yielded municipal taxation to the City of Brandon.

I'd like to point out to my honourable friends that the City of Brandon has, as a number of other urban municipalities, enjoyed substantial increases in revenue from provincial sources which did not exist before or which, if they did exist, existed in much smaller terms. I'll give you just two or three examples which make this amount involved in Bill 55 pale in relative insignificance.

In 1971 we took the decision to abolish the artificial five percent limitation that applied to provincial grants in lieu of taxes payable to any municipality on behalf of provincial assets and properties owned in those municipalities, as a result of which the revenues available to the City of Brandon, in that one respect alone, were incr eased from $300, 000 to $800, 000 -a half a million dollars, Mr. Speaker, in one crack.

And it has to be regarded as unanticipated windfall increment in revenue to the City of Brandon because there was no promise, no commit ment that we would remove this artificial five percent ceiling on provincial grants in lieu of taxes to municipaliti es, but we did so because we regarded it to be equitable. So the City of Brandon's revenues increased by half a million in that one res pect alone. And then, in addition, the City of Brandon enjoyed an expansion of boundaries which brought it an additional assess ment base in the order of 335- -no, an actual tax yield in the order of $335, 000.

Then I note a reference here to taxes paid by MHRC in the City of Brandon, but I will not include that because presumably the MHRC tax yield is hopefully a self-carrying thing and it doesn't yield more than the costs associated with it. So I make no point about that, although it, too, provides 66, 000. But significantly, a third item is the transit operation subsidy. Under the old formula

May 23, 1974 383 1 BILL 55 (MR . SCH REY ER cont'd } ..... of urban public transit su bsidy by the province, the Ci ty of Brandon enjoyed a re venue in the amount of $12, 400 from the province, and of course with inflation and with increased costs of operation, even the old formula would have increased the amounts available perha ps ; instead of $12, 000 it would be in the order of $18, 000 or $20, 000. But, Mr.

Speaker, as a result of the enric hment of the formula itse lf of public transit grants payable by the province, the Ci ty of Brandon this year will be receiving not 12 or 18 thousand dollars but in the order of 80 - 80 - eight zero thousand dollars, and that is a substantial amount which makes the amount that is being quibbled about in this bill pale into relative unim portance. An d then there are many other formulae involved here and additional grants and re venues available to Brandon because of changes in provincial policy. Surely it can't be the amount of money.

It is really, Si r, the principle that is involved here, and I will not make any hypo crit ical effort to mask my true feelings as to what happened in the episode of the Keystone Ce ntre.

So mewhere along the way it got into someone's head that while the Provincia l Exhibition Properties were not subject to munic ipal taxat ion, Keystone conce ivably could be, could be made subj ect to municipal taxation, and although the unders tand ing and the spirit of understanding all along in the case of Keystone, the Member for Brandon did give us a very modest and quiet low-key credit to the provincial administration for confirm ing a rather vague pr evious undertaking by the pr evious administration as to the financin g of Keystone, we did firm it up, confirmed that the province would be partic ipating in the capital cost, and Keystone was procee ded with in the same spirit and intent as other Centennial pro jec ts.

Now, the municip al tax status of most of the major Centennial projects that involved federal and provincial dollars has been quite clear. Unless there be any lingering unclarity, this bill attempts to put all on the same bas is and same status with respect to their mun icipal tax status ; that they shall be, as most of them are alr eady, tax exempt. It was never in the cards, it was never in the stars, Mr. Speaker, that there was any --there was never any assumption by the province that Keystone would be subj ect to munic ipal taxat ion.

Now I realize that there are some who argue, and the Mayor of Brandon in particu lar - although I won't dwell on that -t hat they assumed that it would be, and it is interest ing to note, Mr. Speaker, that in itially even Keystone, not just the Provincial Exhibition Properties, but Keystone initially did not have provision in it for munici pal taxes and the budget was approved in the first year by the city and the province without municipal taxes being part of it. The assumption, theref ore, was always clear to me, and the infur iation of it all, Mr .

Speaker, that subs equent to the con struction, subs equent to agreeing on an operating cost or defi cit cost-sharing, that the question of municipal taxes should be brought into the picture. An d of cou rse, Mr. Speaker, it nullifies the spiri t and intent of deficit cost-sh aring because the amount of the municipal tax yield to the city is almost as gre at, if not as great - or greater, which would be the ultimate absurdity than the amount of their share of the cost-de ficit . . . A ME MB ER : They made twelve thousand ... MR . SCH RE YER : Of the deficit cost, rather. Well, then, Mr.

Speaker , we would be playing games. It would be a completely conduit type of arrange ment and that was never the intent or spiri t, nor are we pr epared to proceed along those lines .

Again, not that the dollars involved are that great, but we cannot feel that there was actin g in good faith when subs equent to the event, subs equent to agreeing on construction, the allocation of federal and provincial moneys for the construction, subsequent to the first year's operatin g budget being approved without munici pal taxes in, ther e should then be the suggestion that munici pal taxes are a cor porate part of the operat ing costs of this facility, which is a regio nal and community facility at one and the same ti me, priv ate, non-profit, with substantial senior govern ment moneys involved in the construct ion.

Now in the case of the Winnipeg Art Gallery, here again, sure, there are those who could argue that the Ci ty of Winnipe g is being asked to give up a signific ant amount of tax revenue by vir tue of agreeing to the Ar t Gallery be ing municipal tax--or at least real property tax exempt. But I want to advise my honourable friend the Me mber for St.

Boniface - he can check this with the Fi nance Co mmittee of the Ci ty of Winnip eg if he wishes - that back in February, and since, there has been an exchange of reports and letters in which it is indicated that it is agreed that if the province is pre pared to continue its current level of financing, plus make funds available to deal with the deficit that the Art Gallery is burdened with, that on the bas is of that kind of

3832 May 23, 1974 BILL 55 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd ) ..... increased level of financing by the province, the City would be prepared to cancel the back taxes owing and also to agree to the real property tax of the Ar t Gallery being exempted into the future, prov ided that the statute also made clear that the amount of asses sment would be also re moved from the roll. An d that 's unders tandable . If it is not yielding a tax yield to the city, it should not be involved in the formula upon which the balance asses sment is calculated for purposes of foundation levy for school program, etc.

So that what we have here is something, as far as the Winnipe g Ar t Gallery is concerned, that has been under cons iderable discu ss ion, has rece ived the endorsement of the Finance Committee conditi onal on the province doing certain thin gs which the province is and has confirmed it will undertake to do, and I frankly don't see any preferred alternative to solv ing this partic ular problem.

Then, too, I should say by way of final point in the matter, that over the course of the past decade the Province of Manit oba has each year had to incur an additional share and an additional amount in absolute dollars of the cost of operatin g the cultural fac ilities that exist in this province, and with the Ce ntennial years of cou rse, some expensive cultural installations - if that 's the word - have been built ; and with the buildin g of them, while no doubt they have gone to enhance the quality of life in our province and our city, nevertheless it has br ought about an increased operating cost, and therefore the amount that this Legisl ature approves each year for provinc ial contr ibution towards the support of the literary and performing arts, of vari ous Ce ntennial cultural fac ilities, is far, far greater than what we were looking at ten, even five years ago.

I hope I would be forgiven if I were to express some very rueful senti ments with respect to the extent to which this is an incurs ion upon provincial re venues which otherwise would go towards I guess what we could call bread and butter programs that would go to br ing about more equ ality of the human condition in our province.

But, like so many things in life, there is always need to provide balance between the more mundane and ess ential programs provided by governme nt in our day and age, and on the other hand the need - and I would admit it is a need - to provide at least base support, base support for the continuance and enhance ment of the arts, recre ation and cultural activi ty. But it is important then, Mr.

Speaker, to make a distinction between base support, or auxiliary support, and support which becomes so great that in fact it is greater than any other source of support, in which case then we run the danger of the state being called upon to be come the princ ipal source of sustenance for cultur e, recre ation and the arts, and that is not desir able either. So, Mr.

Speaker, we are certainly prepared, and the budget of the province proves it, we are prepared to increase really more than we would like to but, reco gn izing reality, we are prepared to increase the amount of provincial support, but we do insist on a mean ingful partic ipation by the city state, by urban soc iety, and that, I am happy to say, is forthcoming from the City of Winnipeg in a re ason able way.

At least we do not face the situa tion we did a year or two ago when there was, it se emed, such adamancy that nothing, that no reconciliation would have been poss ible, in which case I say frankly to the Member for St. Boniface that we would indeed, insofar as we were involved and concerned, have been pre pared to let the Ar t Gallery go for tax sale. What, in practical terms , Mr. Speaker , what good would that have done anyone ? It wouldn 't have done the City any good.

It wouldn't have done the Ar t Gallery patrons any good, nor the province; but, on the other hand, any alternative would have been equally und es irable, so it was not bluff. We would have been prepared to let it go for tax sale. It wouldn 't have solved the problem, however. I'm happy to say that there was appli cation of ratio nal thought to the problem. The city took a reas onable pos ition.

We feel the provinc e's position is equally reasonable, and to the best of my knowledge the Mini ster of Tourism has confirmed this; it certainly meets with the concurrence of those who have been princ ipally involved as private citize ns with the Winnipeg Ar t Gallery, so that I really don't se e that anyone is losing inth isp articular proposed solution. And so as far as Le Centre Cu lturel is con cerned, I don't think that there is anythin g at issue in that respect in this bill, it's merely clarification; and insofar as Keystone is concerned, I regret that the confusion arose.

I do not feel that the province was the source of that confus ion. I believe that we do have records to indicate that the majority of the counc illors of the Ci ty of Brandon and members of the Board of Dire ctors of Keystone understand clearly what the initial intent and spirit was. Unfortu nately it got si de-tracked into a bit of a, oh, how shall one say? It got si de-tracked into a bit of a game--well, that 's close enough, Mr. Speaker, so therefore it re quires clarification in this

May 23 , 1974 3833 BILL 55 (MR . SCHR EYER cont 'd) .. . .. fashion; nothin g ser ious involved, I do hope, but this will go to avoid a lot of staff man years, administrat ion, letters back and forth in the future, if the bill becomes in effect this spr ing. QUESTIO N put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEA KER : Bill No. 58. The Honourab le Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGU SON (Gladstone) : Stand all thr ee, Mr. Speaker, please. . . . . . conti nued on next page

3834 May 23 , 1974 CONCURRENCE MR. SPEAKER: At the present time we are on Health and Social Development. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. You' ve got 24 minutes left. MR. MARlON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hear an Honourable Member would like to pass the Member for St. Boniface. A MEMBER: Never. MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, before we recessed for the dinner hour I was trying to make a point with respect to the Est imates of the Department of Health and Social Develop ment. I think that I had covered the points with respect to the confront ation between doctors and the government.

I had also covered the point inasfar as I wanted to with respect to the shortage of hospital beds, and I was getting to the point where I felt that we should - I wanted to give some advice to the Honourable Minister of Health. And I'm glad to see that he's now in the Chamber so he can accept this free gratuitous advice that I'm willing to give him, and he can receive it. What he does with it after having received it, is entirely up to him, Mr . Speaker . But inasmuch as it' s being given gratuitously and it has been well thought out, I would hope that he would retain some of these good points.

The point I wanted to make, Mr . Speaker, deals with medical specialists . I think that we have a situation in our province where the present level of medical services being offered are second to none, but during the rumble that went on in the first three months of the year and the last, perhaps it was the last two of 1973, there were a number of specialists who felt that if they couldn' t operate under better climate, under better understa nding, they would be forced to leave the Manitoba community.

To my knowledge there have been some cases, a few, I shouldn't use some, I should use a few cases, where some of the specialists have left the province and gone elsewhere. The Minister would probably be much more aware than I of the situation since that point. What we're trying to say ri ght now, Mr.

Speaker, is that surely every thing in the governmen t' s power should be made to encourag e the specialists in remain ing in our pro vince, because without their stay here the high calibre of medical services that are l:eing afforded in this province could be made to suffer, and cons equently of course Manitobans would be the losers in the long run. I would think, Mr. Speaker, that we want no part of that, and that the Minister would give this as much attention as is required. I would like to touch very brief ly, Mr.

Speaker, on the amounts of money, or the curtailment of the amounts of money, that was directed when budgets were pegged as it were to an 8 percent increase over the previous year. Now in making my point I would like to refer to the fact that the total Health and Social Development Budget went from 220. 97 million, 222. 97 million to 27 1. 99 million. That' s an increase, Mr. Speaker, of roughly $50 million, or 22 percent.

Now it is extremely difficult for me to comprehend that where the government, because of the situation it faces, has to increase its outlays by 22 percent, it would then request of hospitals that their budget be maintained within an 8 percent ceiling. Now I realize that the Minister had made some public utterances whereby he said that the lid was coming off and they would be permitted to spend further sums, but I think that there was never any intent by the Minister of giving them a fr ee hand, and the rest rict ions inasfar as I can asc ertain, Mr.

Speaker, have always remained at or about the eight percent level. Now I need not dwell on the fact that a number of items being used in very huge quantities by the hospitals have doubled and trip led in pri ces, and that that ceiling is one that has necessitat ed a great curtailment in hospital services. I remember posing a question with respect to the Bethesda Hosp ital in Steinbach where they had - the hospital board had insinuated that it would have to ra:luce in large measure the kinds of services being offered because of this ceiling on increases over previous years.

I trust that the Minister, and I'm cert ainly not encouraging him to act without all due care and all due consideration to the amounts of moneys that the ratepayers of the province will be asked to raise, or to pay into the coffers, Mr. Speaker, but I think that there should be some judicious kind of application, and I think that eight percent is far too modest a level to permit the hospitals to function properly. Mr. Speaker, another point that I would like to cover has to do with the community health centres or the health clinics. I think that I can' t help but use as my base of

May 23 , 1974 3835 CONCU RR ENCE (MR. MARION cont'd ) ..... information an

article I read that was written by Dr . F. P. Doyle in the Tr ibune of March 23rd. Now I think that the attitude taken by Dr. Doyle in this

article is one of moderation. He is offering as an alternative to the possibilit ies of community health centres, he is saying that if the government wants to foster this kind of plan it should do so in the areas where private commun ity clinics or private clinics are not presently in operation in fulfilling the respo nsibilit y to the citizens of the area.

I think that this is a very objective kind of an attitude, and I cert ainly feel that foisting on Manitobans the communit y committee concep t, the community clinic concep t, without due regard to the existing services is one that in the long run will not serve the Manitoba communit y well. I think it will engender this conflict that I was talking about this morn ing, it will reactivate it, and that also will be a deterrent to good quality medical services in the pro vin ce. I can' t help also when we're referring to communit y clinics, Mr. Speaker, refer to the experiences that have been met in the Regina area.

And I refer to the fact that the Regina Clinic itself has gone through some ups and downs, but they've been most ly downs, and they' ve really had all of the difficulties imaginable in obtaining and keeping medical practitioners in this clinic concept. It would seem to me that before the Minister permit s anyone in his department, or anyone of his advisors, to influence him in developing further the communit y clinic concept that he will give ju st regard to the experiments that have gone on in the Province of Saskatchewan and I must say that these experiments have been blatant failures.

I think that the situation which arose in northern Manitoba is another area, the Leaf Rapids Clinic is the one I'm referring to, and it has peculiarities of its own. But it also, Mr. Speaker, should be thought about, and should become part of the basis of rationale when the community clinic concept is further advarned. This, Mr. Speaker, now brings me to an area where I would like to encour age the government to develop plans on its own hook, avant-garde plans that would int erest young people in the Province of Manitoba, both male and female, in embracing the nursing profession.

I think that again this year, and there• s no doubt that some of the hospital beds will go unoccupied, notwiths tanding the tremendous waiting lists I referred to this morning, but some of these beds will go unoccupied because we don' t have enough people in the nursing pro fession. It would seem to me that it would be the time to embark on a program of enticing young people, because after all it is a viable and rewarding prof es sion, enticing young people, both male and female, and this would be a first I would think inviting male graduates of going into the nursing profe ssion.

I think that if we were able to drum up the kind of enthu siasm that I'm sure a properly conceived plan could do, we would alleviate this kind of problem that again is recurr ing. Ev ery year in my private conversation with the Minister I'm told, that every year there is a problem, there is a very acute shortage of nursing people, nur ses, because of the fact that most of them are married people and they go back to home care during the summer months. Well it would seem to me that that indicates that there is a shortage in the profe ssion itself.

Th ere' s no way that today private nur ses are obtainabl e, or if they are cer tainly they' re --(Interjec tion)- - That• s right. The middle class, the middle poor class of this province is in no way capable of affording their services. I think that a well conceived plan whereby we would inter est young people in Manitoba to embrace the nursing profession could pay dividen ds. A MEMBER: ". . . embracing the nursing prof ession. " MR. MARION: I'm thinking of it in a broader sense than my friend the Honourable Member for Lak eside. But I think that ther e' s nothing wrong with that, Mr.

Speaker, but rig ht now I'm thinking of the sick that are wait-list ed and not in that hospital bed because there is a shortage of nur ses. Mr. Speaker, I think that the last point I would like to make with resp ect to the budget or the Concurrence motion on the budget of the Minister of Health is the cost- sharing that is, the capital cost-sh aring that is being requested of munic ipal governm ents. I have already talked to the Minister and it seemed that in my initial talk I was not able to bring tears of sympathy to his eyes.

He did not seem to be touched by the fact that I felt munic ipal governments ju st were not in a position to afford the 20 percent in capital costs that are now bein g "extracted from them" might I say. It would seem to me that the provincial govern ment is fully respo nsible and should in es sence take care of all of the capi tal costs involved in buildin g hospital s.

3836 May 23, 1974 CONCURRENCE (MR. MARION cont'

d) Now , Mr. Speaker, I would like to go one step further. I think that when we talk of the shortag e of hospital beds and the wait-listing that has grown to alar ming proportions, I can't help but allude to the Seven Oaks Hospital. I'v e already made a pitch in that regard, and I know that here the Minister of Health is not immu ne to my pleading because he has certainly taken the matter in hand, inasmuch as he sees it fit to take in hand. I would like him to reconsider very seriously the cutbacks that were made on the services that will be afforded by the Seven Oaks Hospital.

That a hospital, which is being built in a completely new area, that will be inhabited by young families which will need pediatric and obstetrical services to see the hospital removed, or to see the services, those services removed from that hospital, to me is an irreconcilable kind of fact. I hope that the Minister will give this some further thought. I'm sure that both of these services would pr ove to be beneficial to the new area. I would trust that the Minister of Health will impose his will on his colleagues to reincorporate those services in the hospital plan. I think that, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion I would like to talk about something which is really up to date on obstetrical services. I talked this morning on co-operation between the Manitoba Medical Association and the present government. The Manitoba Medical Association is now reported to espouse a program where there would be centralization of obstetrical services. Mr. Speaker, it would seem to me that the time has come for the government to sit down with representatives of MMA and really research the pr ogram that they are advancing in this area.

It would seem to me it would be an exercis e in showing that the government is willing to co-op erate in every reasonable way in new programs that, not only it has conceived but the profession who is first and foremos t concerned with health of Manitobans. I would think that some of the wound healing could be done with this kind of a case whereby the government would be able to sit at the same table and dialogue so that a fr uitful kind of pr ogram on obstetrical services could be brought about.

I know that the Manitoba Medical Association feels very strongly about this centralization aspect, and it would be nice for the government to listen to what they have to say and then formulate its own policy, because, notwithstanding any of the comments I have made this morning, I still feel that after there has been dialogue policy should be in the hands of government because government were elect ed by the people to administer its needs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the Minister 's final sentence was an appropriate time for me to take the floor on the issue which I'v e been waiting to discuss thro ughout the honourable member' s speech. Because during the honourable member 's speech he made the statement that the Manitoba Medical Association never wanted a veto power over government policy. And I said that that was false. The honourable member says that that is his understanding and if that is false, that I have to prove to him that that is false. Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that I can prove it to my own satisfaction, to the satisfaction of members on this side very easily. What may be more astounding to the honourable member is that I believe that if he will listen, that I can prove it to his satisfaction that the statement that he made is false. I regret, Mr. Speaker, that the subject has been opened.

I would have thought that because there were difficulties as between the government and the Manitoba Medical Association which threatened what I would consider to be a disaster in the Province of Manitoba, that is a withdrawal of medical services with the consequent harm that would be done to citizens of the Province of Manitoba, that because that was averted I would have thought that all members in the House would have thought that it is best to leave sleeping dogs lie.

However the government dealt with this situation there appears now to be a feeling of co-op eration between the Government of Manitoba and the deliverers of medical services, including physicians and surgeons, and that it is not in the interests of the people of Manitoba, ju st as occurs after any settlement of this type of dispute, for one side to start calling names to the other side. I think that generally members have been willing to not try to seek out a subject or a target of abuse with respect to this particular dispute.

Because the honourable member knows full well that the same can happen under any government. It wasn't a New Democratic Party Government in the Province of Qu ebec that had a strike of doctors, it was a Liberal Government. It was n't a New Democratic Party Gover nment that passed a law in

May 23 , 1974 3837 CONCURRENCE (MR. GREEN cont• d). the Province or Quebec saying that any doctor who does not serve his patients, and I'm paraph rasing, shall go to jail; it was a Liberal Govern ment. It wasn't a New Democratic Party Government that had a strik e of hospitals in the Province of Saskatchewan; it was a Liberal Gover nment. It wasn't a New Democratic Party Govern ment that had a strik e of teachers in the Province of Ontario. . A MEMBER: Almo st had one here. MR. GREEN: "· •. it was a Conservative Governme nt. Mr.

Speaker, in none of those cases did I fault the government or try to lend agitation to one side or the other, with an exception. I did say that as far as the Province of Quebec is concerned I considered it abominable that they would pass a law requiring a doctor to treat his patient or go to jail, and that I would never want to pass such a law. I hope that I would have the courage that when the time come s that I would not be party to the pa ssing of such a law.

That is what I told the medical pro fession in the Province of Manitoba, and that is what I said at the time that the Li beral Government of the Prov ince of Quebec passed such a law. But that, Mr. Speaker, is generally talking about events. I do not believe that it is useful to open up a can of worm s when the problem has died away.

But the honourable member gets up and says that somehow the Province of Manitoba created a confrontation with the doctors, and that that confrontation should never have existed, and that the province was taking an unreas onable position because they were saying that the medical pro fession was demanding veto power. I want the Honourable Member for St. Boniface to know that when I was part of the Manitoba position, and I fully subscribe to the gover nment position with respect to the doctors, that I wasn't protecting the New Democrat ic Party Gover nment.

If the honour able member ever hopes to be a member of a government, I was protecting the democratic proce ss for the day that maybe he would someday be in gover nment; and I was protecting the democratic proce ss for the day that maybe the Member for Lakeside would someday want to be in government; and that he should be aware that what was being done here was in his protection, and many many honourable members knew it. I did not ask them to come to our assis tance, nor did I expect them.

I didn't expect the Member for Morris or the Member for Lakeside to say that the governmett is right, because they are corr ect; it is our problem ; we have to live with it, and we have to get out of it. But they didn' t do the other thing. They didn't say that the doctors were right. It was the Member for St. Boniface, who I oaw on televi sion, who said to the people of Manitoba, "The doctors are perfectly right they'r e not asking for anything. They're asking for an agreement to be consulted with health care and the government of Manitoba refuses to do that.

" Now I say to the credit of many honourable members who know what it's all about that although they did not congratulat e us, they did not spur on the doctors, because they knew that what the doctors were asking for was unreasonable. I said that I would prove this to the satisfaction of the Member for St. Boniface if he will listen. The Manitoba Federation of Labour approaches the su pposed Minister of Labour, the Member for St. Boniface, he is now sitting on the Government benches.

They say to him that we want an agreement with respect to the labour laws of the Province of Manitoba, and that agreement has to be agreed to by you and us as to what those laws shall be. Secondly, that until we agree as to changes those laws shall not be changed. Thirdly, if you do not do this there will be a general strike in the Province of Manitoba and we will close up every business in which organized labour works . Now what does the honourable member do? He's shaking his head. He says he will not do that. You know why?

Because he's protecting the democratic proce ss; he's protecting the right of the people of the Province of Manitoba to legislat e what those labour laws will be; and he is saying that the subject of policy, whit.h he referred to in his last sentence, is something which will never be compromised as between the elec ted representatives of the people and a particular group in society. And he agrees with that. So, Mr. Speaker, I have now proved it to his satisfaction. Because that• s exactly what the medical profe ssion said to the Province of Manitoba.

They said that there will be an agreement with regard to medical care in the Province of Manitoba; that that agreement has to be negotiated between the Province of Manitoba and the Manitoba Medical Asso ciation. Regard less of what the nurses say, regardle ss of what hospital boards say, there has to be an agreement between the province and the Medical As sociation; but that agreement has to relate to the delivery of health care ; that that agreement has to be signed by the Province of Manitoba, and that there is to be no

3838 May 23 , 1974 CONCURRENCE (MR. GREE N cont'd) .... changes in tnat agreement until a new agreement is arrived at as between the people of Manitoba and the Medical Ass ociation. If you do not do this we will withdraw our services, to the injury of all of the people of the Province of Manitoba. Would you want me as your repres entative - - forget that you are now the Member for St. Boniface -- to enter into such an agreement ? Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the nub of the dis pute, and that is the only thing that the Governmen t of Manitoba said that they wouldn' t do.

They said that they would - not only that but they sent numerous documents to the Medical As sociation undertaking to consult with them, listing those things about medical care that the doctors in Manitoba felt should be st ated and enunciated as government policy. The one thing that we said we would not do, is that we would not put that in an agreement and say that these things are agreed to between the people of Manitoba and the Manitoba Medical Ass ociation. Now, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member says that the Asso ciation never asked for a veto. First of all, it depends on what your word vet o means.

I presume a veto to be that the government cannot act without the consent of the Medical Asso ci ation. Th e Medical As sociation says that there shall be no delivery of service unless there is an agreemen t between the Medical Assoc iation and the Government of Manitoba, so that they will not accept a health policy which is not agreed to by the Manitoba Medical Association. Now what is that? The very suggestion that there shall be no policy without the agreement of the Manitoba Medical Asso ci ation is a veto. That is the definition of veto. That we cannot have a policy without their app roval.

And if they only stuck to those words saying that there had to be a contract, a legally binding contract - let me explain to the honourable member what that means, and he knows that there is a differenc e. Let us say that -- well, this government happens to agree that there should be an alternative form of health delivery services, that fees for services should be one form of practice, and that we should have tried to encourage another form of practice where doctors work within a clinic agency, and work as employees of that agency in terms of delivering services on a salaried basis .

He may not agree with it, but it' s an alternative policy. Let us say that we have an agreement with the me dical profession which sa ys som ething as simple as this, that medica l services shall be delivered in such a way as to be the best provided to the people of Manitoba. Now, that sounds like a simple thing to agree to, isn' t it ? I mean, who could disa gree tbat medical services should be in the best form. Okay ? --(Interjection)-- Then the Province of Manitoba after cons ultation with the medical profession says, yes, we have a fee for service.

We are also going to try to set up a salaried system, and the doctor says that' s contrary to our agreem ent ; that is not the best form of delivery of service s. We say, we think it is the best form of delivery of service. They say, we think it' s not, and that is a breach of contract. Now, is the policy then set by the elcted repres entatives of the people? No, there is a suit. They go over to a judge and they file an injunction suggesting that the Province is breaking its agreement with the medical profession by installing an alternative form of delivery of services.

And at that point it' s not the elected repres entat ives of the people who decide, it' s a judge of the Court of Quee n' s Bench, or the Court of Appeal, or the Supreme Court of Ca nada. I'll tell you somet hing, if I wanted policy decided in that way I would have stayed in the Law Courts. It' s because I didn' t like what they were doing over at the Law Courts that I came here, and if once I get here I should give it back to the Law Courts, I'v e wasted a lot of time and effort.

I would no sooner trust the Court of Que eris Bench with the se tting of health policy than I would trust them to count the ballots if I was in a close election. There' s no way. You know, I' ll win or lose in my constituency; once I get into that courthouse, I tell you I lose. And if you're saying that that is a suggestion of bias on the part of the Court of Queen' s Bench judges, I say absolutely not. Mr. Speaker, I'm not talking about some conscious deliberate policy of elect ing your people, I'm saying that every counting of a ballot is subjec tive, and I will show it to the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface, who knows full well that it is objective. I'm not saying that we got undone by the ju dges of the Court of Queen' s Bench. All I know is that we will not win elec tions in court until we appoint the judges . And that' s not saying anything about the existing judges, that' s saying that � ju dges will do it.

May 23, 1974 3839 CONCURREN CE (MR. GREEN cont'

d) Not that the existing judges have done anything bad. Well, Mr. Speaker, the fact is that we can go into this a great deal. I am suggesting that in any close election, and if any su bjectivity is involved then as honest as the person is, if there is any su bjectivity that can make it go one way or the other -- and I believe that people are su bjective -- that that subjectivity will make itself found in the counting of ballots. Why not? Would the honour able member say that I will count ballots; that if the member for Lakeside, and the Member for St.

Johns, ended up in a dead heat and there was one ballot which could go one way or the other and I was the judge, now, how much would you give for the chances of the Member for Lakeside. (Lau ghter) Now if you accept that, if you accept that, then what have I said that is --(interjecti on) -- Pardon me? Well, I'll tell you, the Honourable Member for Lakeside is the only member of the assembly who's been an astute thinker, and maybe there would be a problem. But the fact is that that is the situation, and I do not say that on that acco unt the ju dges are biased.

But everyth ing -- you know they sent me to law school, they taught me certain things. They tau ght me about ju risprudence. They tau ght me that Mr. Justice B. • . .. said that the law is not logic but experience, and that every single judgment depends on what the ju dge's base in that

part icular pre mise is. Now am I to dismiss that from my mind? Well they shouldn't have taught it to me in Law School if that• s what they wanted me to dismiss from my mind. But nevertheless I said that I would prove it to the honourable member, that that's what the medical association was asking for. Now, Mr. Speaker, here is the first document that was sent by the association, and I'll read it to the honourable members, and you tell me whether this doesn't say "veto".

First of all it's an agreement as to health policy, containing the very things that I say would have to be interpreted, not by the people of Manitoba but by a court. You know, very innocent things: And it's the right of a person to select the physician from whom he wishes to receive medical service s; It is in the public inter ests that the

part ies hereto co-op erate ; The fee for service method of rem unerat ing medical service shall be changed only by mu tual agreement of the

part ies; Accep table hospital standards are those established by the Canadian Council of Hospitals ; Every physician shall have the right to have admitting privile ges. Many of these things entirely satisfactory, Mr. Speaker, but to su bject them in an agreement. We sent back a document undertaking that this is the policy of the Province of Manitoba, and I'll read that to the honourable member, that this is our policy ; that we will not change this policy without consenting the medical profess ion. A MEMBER: Consulting. MR. GREEN: Yes, consulting, excuse me . Well, I'll now read it to the honourable member.

And by the way, he should have the material. I believe that we sent this material to every honourable member, and if he can read and understand, then he should not have made the statement that he did because we undertook those things.

Here's what it says: "This agreement shall become effective from and including January 1st, 19(blank), shall continue in effect up until and including December 31 st, 19(blank), and shall remain in force and effect from year to year thereafter unless written notice of request to negotiate a renewal or revision of this agreement, or to negotiate a new agreement, is given by any party at least 90 days prior to the anniversary date thereof, provided that no such notice shall be req uired for implementa tion of positions of

Article 4 hereof. During the period required to negotiate a renewal, revised or new agreement this agreement shall remain in full force and effect. " Now, Mr. Speaker, "The parties receiving notice within 15 days clear of receiving same shall forward to the party giving notice of their respective proposals, if any, for the renewal or revision of this agreem ent, or for a new agreement. And the parties in the negotiation shall be restricted to the matters raised in their respective proposals ." So what happens?

You have an agreement now with regard to health policy, which you only have because you have had to agree with the doctors or they will withdraw their services. Now during the agreement you cannot change health policy without the consent of the doctors , or you can consult with them, or they can say that you are in violation of this

3840 May 23, 1974 CONC URRENCE (MR. GREEN cont'd) .•.• . agreement. Then the agreement continues until you negotiate a new one, or until they say the same thing to you. That unless you are agreed as to what we want with regard to health policy, we will not work. Now, does the honourable member consider that to be a veto, or does he not consider that to be a veto ? Because, Mr. Speaker, we sent them documents, and the honourable member has them, indicating in every respect that we were prepared to give our statement and declaration of policies that this is the way the Manitoba Government intends to proceed.

And I don' t think even the doctors themselves knew what the implications of their requests wer e. They didn' t realize that what -- they wanted an undertaking from the government and, you know, I can go through the entire procedure and prove that they did not know. They were, Mr.

Speaker, engaged in an adventure largely directed by a lawyer that I was involved with in labour negotiations, who I think was carrying over to some extent his argument with me, vis-a-vis labour negotiations into the dispute between the doctors and the Province of Manitoba, and got up at a public meeting cl 800 doctors, and do you know what he said ? He said, you know we're dealing with a kind of guy who I dealt with in the courts, that when he didn' t like what the judges said he went rig ht to the Supreme Court of Canada, and when he lost there he took it into the House and changed the law.

Well, I don' t know what's the matter with that ? But that was part of his pitch to the medical prof ession in the Province of Manitoba. Now, would the honourable member say that I protected his right as a legislator if I signed this agreement ? And you know, would the next step be an agreement with the Manitoba Federation of Labour, because I told them all the same thing. I told the Federation of Labour that they will have to fight for their rights, and it will be the government that sets labour policy, not the Manitoba Federation of Labour .

And when the Manitoba -- would he sign an agreement, would the Honourable Member for Lakeside sign an agreem ent as to the agricultura l policy with the Mani toba Farme rs Union that there will be an agreement between he and they as to policy, and it cannot be changed without the agreements of the Mani toba Farmers Union ? Well, the honourable member is laughing at me. I'l l tell you what, he wouldn't even do it if it was the Manitoba Federal of Agriculture or the Manitoba Farm Bureau.

At the convention of the New Democratic Party, the Manitoba Farmers Union pr esented, or people sympathetic with their position presented a resolution that the Manitoba Government recognize the Mani toba Farmers Union as a certif ied agent for all farmers in the Province of Manitoba. I told them the same thing as I told the Manitoba Medical Associa tion. No way. If you want the support of the farmers in the Province of Manitoba, you feel that you'll represent them, go ahead, get their support. But no way do we recognize that the Manitoba Farme rs Association represents all farmers in the Province of Manitoba.

And I'v e told the same thing to the Federation of Labour and I'v e told the same thing to the Mani toba Medical Associ ation. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface is suggesting that he would have entered into this agreement. Well Mr .

Speaker, if he would have entered into the agreemen t, he would have started to set up a sys tem in this province whereby not the last sentence that he made that it should be the government that sets policy, but that policy would have to be negotiated in each area with different groups, different powerful groups, and the very negotiation of that policy makes them more powerful, because then the farmer knows that he can' t come to the Member for Lakeside to present a grieva nce. The Member for Lakeside is going to go to the Farmers Union and say, what shall I do with this man ?

And a doctor who says that there should be different health policies, he won't be able to come to the Province of Manitoba; we'll say we have to go to the MMA and negotiate our policy with them, or nurses or anybody else. Now Mr . Speaker, I tell you what I told the Medical prof ession, that I am scared silly of a withdrawal of medical services in the Province of Manitoba.

Nothing terrifies me more except one thing, to turn over the democratic process of this province to the Medical Association of the Province of Manitoba, that that scares me more. (Applause) It should scare the honourable member more, because that• s what we're involved in, and it's only at the last minute that they themselves were re ally brought to bear as to what it was being suggested. That they themselves on the last letter that was sent to Dr . Wylie by the Minister

May 23, 19 74 3841 CONCURRENCE (MR . GREEN cont'd) •.•••••• of Health, it was put quite clearly, we're prepared to discuss anything; we're prepared to have all kinds of consultations, but we will not sign an agreement with the doctors which ties us to a health policy which takes the decisions vis-a-vis that policy, and the

interpretation of that policy, out of this Chamber into a Court. We will not do that. And do you know what Dr. Wylie said ? Dr. Wylie said, that the Minister of Health is ignorant. He' s stupid. He doesn' t understa nd legislation. That' s not what we are asking for. But the next day he found out that that' s what they were asking for, and that resolved the medical dispute ; the medical dispute ended without this contract that was being suggested had to be sig ned by the government with the doctors as to health policy. If we were unreasonable, why did they - - and I don't want to open wounds.

A& far as I am concerned the medical profession behaved honourably. The government behaved honourably. They had differ ences and they reconciled them. And it's wrong after the dust has settled for somebody to try to find a problem here. I'll tell you who were the big pr oblem here. The problem was largely the editorial board of the Winnipeg Free Press and the Winnipeg Tri bune, more so the Winnipeg Free Press. On October 15th we sent a letter to the Medical As sociation and the end of that letter, Mr. Speaker, and I think it' s worth rea ding if I'm not overstep ping my time.

The let ter sent to the associ ation, a statement indicating, a document which said, "Here are the things you have asked us to agree to. We have put them down as a Statement of Policy, and we u.1dertake we won' t change it without cons ulting you. " Does that sound reaso nablD t� the honourable member ? Have you read that document ? Have you looked at it ? Was it a reaso nable document ? He' s nodding his head, it was. It was not accepted. It was said, that we will not accept this. We want -- as a matter of fact it was called by the Winnipeg Free Press, a "C onfrontation" . And I want to get to that point.

Here is the last sentence of the letter : "Some question has arisen as to whether or not government will enter into an agreement which reflects such policy. " We indicated the policy. "As you are aware public policy concerning any group is usually not reduced to a formal written agreement. Indeed an agreement of this kind is probably foreign to the democratic pr ocess since policies may change from time to time and no group can be given an absolute guarantee that the democratic pr ocess will not result in change.

However, we are aware that there is some sensitivity in this respect and we are of the opinion that if the substance of what we are just discus sing can be mutually understood and accepted there will be little difficulty in re aching under standing as to what type of formal or informal instrument should be devised in order to record a meaningful memora ndum of such understa nding" . So we set a few.

You can agree to what you want, like that ther e's good health care, or that doctors treat their patients nice - hospitals treat the doctors nicely, or that doctors will have the option of working for "fee for service" . We'll list these things and we'll tell you that this is our policy, and we will also tell you that we will not change it without consulting with you. That' s a reas onable position. This letter was ref erred to as a "c onfrontation" between the doctors, the Gover nment of Manitoba and the MMA by the Winnipeg Free Press. Well, that's int erest ing.

We then held a meeting and we said virt ually the same thing with the Medical profession. They asked that the press come, and we said we' d welcome the pre ss; and the press came and reported the meeting; and they said that they cannot discuss anything with the government on this basis because it does not give them a written contract. We knew that we were in a probl em. So we took the same letter - it was October 15th - we took the sa me letter and we sent another letter October 22nd, dealt with some points which had not been dealt 'Jith before, and then copied verbatim -- Mr.

Speaker, we used the same words and the same paragraphs as to how we intended to deal with this question of agreement and consultation. If the honourable member has the letter he can read the two, and I tell him that it' s not by accident, the last page and a half of the letter setting out the position is verbatim. We got a letter fr om Dr . Wylie saying that ''we are glad to see the change in the govern ment' s position;' that they are now prepared to enter into an agreement ; and the Winnipeg Free Press wrote an editorial and said Mr.

Tou pin' s position, the Minister of Health, has now moved away from confrontation and he's sent a very reas onable suggestion now to the . . . The same letter was referred to as a confrontation and as a reason able document, because the position of the Ass ociation had to change, and when the position of the

3842 May 23 , 19 74 CONCURR ENCES (MR . GREEN Cont 'd) ..... Winnipeg Free Press changed. How many times have you read in the Wi nnipeg Free Pr ess , how many times have you read in the Winnipeg Free Press that the is sue , the issu e in the British El ection, is who is going to govern the country , the elected representatives of the people or the trade unions ? Whe n there was a rail way strik e , the issu e now was , who is governing the country ? The elect ed representatives of the people or the trade unions ?

When this happened, it was n•t who was going to govern the country , the elected representatives of the people or the MMA , it was "God, the government has created a conf rontation between themselves and the MMA and the doctors are going to stop working. What the hell is going on with this governme nt ?" That was the positi on of the Winnipeg Free Pr ess . The position of the Winnipeg Free Press was that the doctors passed an ultimatum, and I• m sure that if the Member for Lake side was to rece ive such an ultimatum, or the Member for St .

Bon iface ... which said that you will me et with us on this day , that you will present your credentials , that you will pr esen t your credentials ; that there will be an agreement by such and such day ; that you will give us the names of your negotiatin g team . The Member for Lake si de , I saw him, and at that moment I was admirin g the honourabl e member , because he received such a docume nt fr om the Vegetable Growers , and he had it in his hand ; an d he looked at the membe rs of the House and said , "This is what I think of that ," That•s what he did in 19 67.

He was ri ght , because that •s the kind of document it was . We didn't do that . You know , we have to be more reason able than Caesar 's wife, A ME MBER: Beyond reproach . MR . GREEN: We sent them a letter saying, "We have received your ultimatum. We comply . Our representatives will be at this room at this time , etc. We are sendin g you. a contract -- or not a contract , we are sending you a decla ration indicatin g our policy ," What does the Free Press do ?

They wrote an editorial saying that the resp onse of the Gover nment to the doctor's ultimatum is a terr ible thing because they didn 't name the representative s, We named the representativ es . What we said is that "they will not presen t special credentials and we will not ask you for your credentials ." Now how much dirt do you have to eat in order to satisf y the Winnipeg Free Press or the Mani toba Medical Assoc iation? How much would you want me as your Min ister to eat ? A MEMBE R: I am not ... MR .

GREEN: Well then, don't go on television in the midst of that kind of a disp ute and say that "My God, the doctors are only askin g the Gover nment to be reason able , to si gn an agreement with them , and to give good health care . Don•t we all want that?" And don•t get up in this House and say that they weren •t askin g for veto power , because they didn •t know what they were askin g for, and when they found out what they were askin g for, Mr . Speaker , there was an agreement with respect to medical fees . The doctors are working , They're doing reason able well. I do not begrudge it to them .

I know that I have always tried to do well. I have not tried to earn less money, I have tried to earn more mon ey. I think that every citizen in society would like to have a better position . I regret - and that •s why I' m in politics , that one of the things that I• m trying to change is that some people have very very strong bargaining power to get a fee for the services that they rend er , and some people have relat ively weak barg ainin g power to get a fee for the services that they will rend er . And thaL is the real disparity of wealth that exists in society .

It has not to do , as is often alleged, by the fact that that disparity of wealth appears because of greater brain power, or harder wor k, or a greater contribution to societ y . It happens to exist because you have chosen - and I don•t think that this is wrong; that people have wound up for one reason and another in a position where they have b3t ter barg ainin g power . I assure you that when the medical prof essi on says thaL they are going to go on strik e , that they have a bigger weapon vis -a-vis societies than is the case when the employees of CCIL go on st ri ke.

And that has something to do with the fact that the medical prof ession is in a very high income group and the membe rs of CCIL are in a more modest inc ome gro up. That has something to do with it, It •s .not ju st the fact that somebody went to school and he can per form an operation, or somebody can make a speech before a court , that that 's why lawye rs have the better position, It has some thing to do with the economic status that they have gained for themselves in society and the potential which they have of demg,nding a higher fee, and I do not begr udge the medical prof es sion that .

And I say that we have negotiated with the medical

May 23, 19 74 3843 CONCURRENCE (MR . GR EEN Cont •d) ... •. prof ession, we have a relatively stable situation; that we are to be , not congratula ted, no, no , but we are to be at least found that we so behaved as to not divorce the Member for Lakeside fr om the potential seats of gover nmen t power which he is attempting to achieve - and the same I hope for the Member for St .

Boniface ; that we have not impaired the sovere ignty of the people of the Province of Manitoba to enact their own laws, such as we would if we entered into an agreement with the International Nickel Company that said that there will be no changes in mining policy in the Province of Manitoba without the consent of the International Nickel Company of Canada or the mining company . Or if the lawyers came to the Member for St.

Bon iface , and said that they want an agreement that there will be no changes in the system of legal juri sprude nce to practice in the courts the laws under which people get the courts without the consent and approval of the legal prof ession of the Provin ce of Manitoba ; or of the Manitoba Far mers Union, or of the Manitoba Federation of Labour , or the nurs es , or the teachers or anybody else .

And if some governme nt does that to me when I•m a citizen of the Province of Manitoba, says that my rights are no longer going to be determined through the legislative proce ss, but that it •s going to be the subject of agree ment between the governme nt and the teacher s, that educational policy will be the subject of an agree ment between teachers - but that the gover nment shouldn't consult the teacher s. My God, read the docu ments. We sent them thr ee documents undertaking to cons ult with them before any changes we:J;e made. MR . SPEAKER: Order please . The honourable member has five minutes. MR.

GR EEN: And those documents were sent out to every doctor in the Provin ce of Manitoba . And what happened ? Why are you sending the doctors this informati on? Well, who would make such a statement ? Surely the medical prof ession is entitled to know the position that was taken by the Manitoba Governme nt . Surely we had reason to believe that our position somehow was not coming thro ugh. We have, Mr . Speaker , you know this again, where I blame the newspapers . I went to a meeting, I was called to a meeting of the Medical Legal Society, public interest group, to come and explain the position.

There were lawyers and doctors there , and I spoke to Dr . Connelly who was on the panel with me - and I spoke and I explained to them that ye s, we are prepared to enter into an agreem ent for fees and we are prepared to give them a declaration with regard to medical policy, which would indicate that we agree in most respects with that they are saying and that we will not change without consu lting th em. I was asked, would we enter into an agreemen t concerning this , and I answered by readin g the last page of the letter which I •ve read to the honourable member .

The next day the Premier received a letter fr om Dr . Wylie: "I am infor med that Sid Green appeared at this meeting and said that the Province of Maniwba would under no cir cumstances enter into an agreement with the Medical Association of the Province of Manitoba. Kindly advise whether this is the position of the Governm ent. " That•s the letter we got from Dr . Wylie . So I went back to the Medical Legal Society and I said look, I came as an innocent lamb, I was trying to do a public service . What happens ? I said here is a letter that Dr . Wylie sent the Premi er . Did that happen at the meeting ?

Well, now here is an impartial observer - the honourable member knows Mr . 0 •Sullivan. And here was Dr . Wylie claiming that we were creatin g the confront ation, that we were trying to get doctors to go on str ike. So I told Mr . O•S ullivan that if that•s not what happened, and not for any other reason, and Joe wouldn't of course do it for any reason . He was the Chairman of the Medical Legal Society. He wrote a letter to Dr . Wylie stating the following - by the way, nobody in the press, despite the fact that we were creating the confron tation, we made this letter public, it did not appear in any newspaper .

You see whether under the circumstances and under the sugge stion by the editorial pages that we were caus ing the trouble and that we were creating a confron tation, and that we were trying to create a strik e in the Province of Man itoba - and that•s what the doctors said , that there are people in the govern ment who want to strik e . Here •s the letter: "It has some to my attention that you have written to the Honourable E.

Schreyer stating that you were advised that at a meeting of the Manitoba Medical Legal Society on November 27th that the Honourable Sid Green had stated that the government would not enter into an agreement with the Manitoba Medical Assoc iation . I would like to tell you that you have been incorrectl y informe d, I was the Chairman of the meeting. I had invited your association to partic ipate in a discussion.

Your association by a letter of November 2nd, 19 73 accepted my invitation and said that you agreed that the program should not be a debate or confron tation on the issues which you are endeavouring to resolve between the association and

3844 May 23 , 1974 CONCURRENCE (MR . GREEN Cont•d ) •.••• the governm ent. Your association was represented at the meeting by Dr . Peter Con nelly, who reviewed the experience of the Ass ociatwn in dealing with the govern ment and the MHSC . Mr . Gr een respon ded and read extensively fr om a letter from Mr . Toupin to your association dated October 27, 19 73 . Mr . Green did not say that the govern ment was unwilling to enter into an agreement with the MMA . On the contrary, he said explicitly that the government was prepared to enter into an agreement with the association. He said explicitly that a fee

schedule could be a part of such an agreement , He furthe rmore said

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-138
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 138.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	80b75999b21a0294c77d3bddfe23ed543997afc9

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