Manitoba Hansard — 30 April 1992 (Sitting 56, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-56

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session • Thlrty·Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLI No. 56 ·1 :30 p.m., THURSDAY, APRIL 30, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIE DGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKE S, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

2789 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 30, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bruce Campbell, Jeff Hamm, Marilyn Catellier and others urging the government to consider the establishment of an Office of the Children's Advocate independent of cabinet and reporting directly to the Legislative Assembly. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of George Law, Heather MacKay, Evelyn Atkinson and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider a one-year moratorium on the closure of the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon Ea st) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Valerie J. Black, Patricia Wilson, Catherine Westwood and others reque sting the govern me nt consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mrs. Carstairs). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? The petition of the undersigned residents of the Province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Province of Manitoba announced that it would establish an Office of the Children's Advocate in its most recent throne speech and allocated funds for this Office in its March '92 budget; and

WHEREAS the Kimelman Report (1 983), the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry (1 991 ) and the Suche Report (1 992) recommended that the province establish such an office reporting directly to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in a manner similar to that of the Office of the Ombudsman; and

WHEREAS pursuant to the Child and Family Services Act Standards, the agency worker is to be the advocate for a child in care; and

WHEREAS there is a major concern that child welfare workers, due to their vested interest as em ployees within the service system, cannot perform an independent advocacy role; and WHER EAS pure advocacy will only be obtained through an independent and external agency; and

WHEREAS the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has unsatisfactorily dealt with complaints lodged against child welfare agencies; and

now THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba strongly urge the provincial government to consider establishing an Office of the Children's Advocate which will be independent of cabinet and report directly to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Jack Reimer (Member of the Standing Committee on Economic Development): I beg to present the Fourth Report of the Committee on Economic Development. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Economic Development presents the following as their Fourth Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, April28, 19 92, at 8 p.m, in Room 254 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 19 91 . Your committee has considered the Annual Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 19 91 , and has adopted the same as presented. All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. Reimer: I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received.

2790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 Motion agreed to. * (1 335) Mr. Jack Penner {Chairperson of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources): I beg to present the First Report on the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr. Clerk: Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resour ces presents the following as its First Report. Your committee met on Tuesday, April 28, 19 92, at 8 p.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the year ended October 31 , 19 91 .

Mr. Walter Bardua, president and general manager, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and busi ness of the Manitoba Pub lic In surance Corporation. Your comm ittee has considered the Annual Rep ort of the Man itoba Public Ins ur ance Corporation for the year ended October 31 , 19 91 , and has adopted the same as presented. All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. Penner: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Glen Findlay {Minister of Agriculture): I would like to table the 19 90-91 Annual Report of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation and the 19 91 Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of the honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this afternoon Peter Muir, Tibor Bodi and Peter Aitchison. They are members of the climbing team who will be attempting the first ascent of Mount Manitoba in the Kluane National Park in the Yukon. On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Also with us this afternoon, from the Margaret Park School, we have twenty-seven Grades 4 and 5 students, and they are under the direction of Paula Calado. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable memb er for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak}. Cet apres-midi, aussi, nous tenons a vous signaler Ia presence dans Ia galerie publique de dix-sept etudiants de Ia neuvieme annee de I'Ecole Provencher, sous Ia direction d'Ed McCarthy. Cette institution est situee dans Ia circonscription du depute de Saint-Boniface (Mr.

Gaudry). [Translation] Also this afternoon, we would like to indicate the presence in the public gallery of seventeen pupils in Grade 9, from Provencher School, under the direction of Ed McCarthy. This school is located in the constituency of the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry). [English) On behalf of all members, I welcome you all here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD North American Free Trade Agreement Public Hearings Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In the Speech from the Throne in 19 90, the government said, Canadians said no to the old style of elite accommodation and closed-door politics.

Mr. Speaker, since that time, the government has participated in a number, almost on a weekly basis, of trade meetings between provincial trade ministers and the federal minister, one of which is going on again today in a downtown Winnipeg hotel dealing with trade. The items the ministers have been dealing with on a weekly basis have included interprovincial trade and have also included the proposed trade agreement with Mexico. We have been concerned about the secret negotiations on trade. We are concerned about the secret drafts. We are concerned about the secret responses from the provincial government.

We are concerned about the secret analysis that has not been provided to the people of this province about the positive and negative impact of North American free trade with Mexico, which is going on right now in Mexico in terms of negotiations between Canada, the United States and Mexico. I would, therefore, ask the Acting Premier whether the government will amend its terms of reference on

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2791 proposed free trade with Mexico to change their six conditions-which of course is a flip-flop from their opposition to free trade with Mexico from the election-to include mandatory public input for the Canadian people and the people of Manitoba on this vital trade agreement affecting their livelihood and their children's future. • (1 340) Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member has been told many times that the six principles that Manitoba put forward are the framework within which we intend to stand strong.

They will not be violated, and they are hardly hidden from view. The fact is that our Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) is involved on an ongoing basis with the federal authorities to put forward Manitoba's position strongly, to advocate on behalf of the industries that could be affected in this province, to make sure that our place is put forward strongly at the table. We will stick to those six principles. I think he should stop talking about hidden agenda. That, in fact, is a very public agenda. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has not told us what industries are impacted, what areas of the province are impacted, who the winners and losers are, according to their analysis. They have an $800,000 secretariat, and we do not know what they are producing out of the bowels of the Legislature in terms of what is positive and negative. The terms of reference that the minister refers to do not include any public input from the people of Manitoba and the people of Canada.

I would ask the government why the public of Manitoba will not have any say in this matter and why this government did not include it in their terms of reference for the free trade agreement with Mexico. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, to begin with, Ottawa has made it very clear that this was their responsibility in international trade. Manitoba has made it very clear that we intend to be at the table to make sure that the conditions that we put forward are heard, that they are attended to and they are answered in any agreementthat is ultimately struck.

The research that we are doing and the work that we are doing is being done to support those principles, and we will stand by that basis. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am not talking about Ottawa's conditions. I am talking about Manitoba's conditions, the ones that explain the flip-flop from no to the free trade agreement with Mexico to the maybe position to free trade with Mexico. Even the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr.

Connery) has advised the government that they are absolutely crazy to proceed with free trade negotiations with Mexico when we still do not know the impact of the Free Trade Agreement with the United States. Judging from the bankruptcy numbers today, Mr. Speaker, which are the highest in March since the history of keeping bankruptcy numbers, which are on top of the bankruptcy numbers in February 19 92, which are also the highest in the history of this province, one would think the government would start to pay attention to the public concerns on the economy.

So I would ask the Acting Premier, will they amend their terms of reference to include public inputfrom this province on what our position is, what our response is, what the drafts say and what they mean for Manitoba and public input to their trade agreement, not the provincial government's trade agreement with North American free trade? Mr. Cummings: First of all, the Leader of the Opposition chooses to misrepresent what is occurring in the trend of bankruptcies in this province. We are, in fact, improving. Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition seems like he is not willing to listen to some principles that this province laid down as the condition upon which we would hold any potential agreement that the federal government may choose to enter into. The six principles were enunciated. They are very public.

They are being put forward very strongly at any meetings that our representatives are at, and if he wishes to throw out all possibility of trade, he should think about the fact that Manitoba had an opportunity, and I personally not very long ago had an opportunity, to question directly the mi niste r respo nsible for admi nis trat ion of env ironmen tal matters, for example, at the minister's meeting in Vancouver. Those are the kinds of opportunities that we have to seize on to make sure that our principles are being dealt with.

2792 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 Education System Dropout Rate Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Education and Training. Mr. Speaker, the Economic Council of Canada has outlined a number of deficiencies in our education system and many which amount to four lost years under this Tory government. If literacy is a problem with graduates, then can you imagine what the problem must be with those that drop out?

What specific programs and measures are being under taken by this government to deal with dropouts, specifically women who constitute the second worst dropout rate of any province in Canada? * (1 345) Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): We do take the results of this study very seriously. We took it seriously enough to make sure that we had a represent ative in Ottawa yesterday when the study was released.

I would like to correct the honourable member in terms of this being an indication of four years of our government because, if he in fact reads the report, he will see the statistics are based on the years from the early '80s, through 19 87, as well, the years of the NDP government. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would ask him to look again. Let me also say that this government did recognize the issues that were raised in this particular report, issues such as high costs, skills of students, quality of teaching and a linkage to work and employment.

We do at this point have a number of initiatives that in fact exceed the recommendations of the report which came out yesterday. Let me mention one which I have mentioned in this House previously, and that is the creation by this government of the Student Support branch. We are the only government in Canada to have dedicated a whole branch to the issue of dropouts. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, will the minister outline what programs are in place, since she refused to answer the question, for women who last year constituted the second worst dropout rate in the country, to deal with the serious dropout rate in this province? Because the minister for the whole last week has refused to answer the question in Estimates, will she tell us today what programs are in place to deal with the situation of women dropouts in this province? Mrs. Vodrey: Let me answer again. In the first place, we have created a very specific branch.

This government has recognized the concerns of at-risk students, people who are at risk of leaving school before their education is completed, and we have created the Student Support branch. Through that branch, schools, local communities will be able to identify programs which they believe will be specific for their area, most helpful to their communities, and apply for grant funding. In addition, the department is there also to offer other kinds of supports which divisions might see as important. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speak er, my final supplementary is to the same minister.

If administrative costs to the province of Manitoba are disproportionately higher than in the rest of Canada, why is this government and this minister insisting on putting in place more bureaucracy but, more importantly, another level of school board to deal with private schools to increase the costs to the public of Manitoba? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr.

Sp eaker, the issue of account abil ity has certainly been one of the priorities of this government, and the issue of accountability we are attempting to address through a number of areas: one, the institution of provincial testing which the other side of the House has so firmly objected to, and the most recent study has said it is very important to ensure our standards. In the area of the Student Support branch, there is over $1 0 million of grant money available. * (1 350) Education System Curriculum Revisions Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second OpposHion): Mr.

Speaker, it is very clear thatthere is death on both their houses because neither party, whether it be the Tories or be it the NDP, has given education the priority it deserves in the province of Manitoba. I think it is important, however, to look at how this government has prioritized its expenditures on education, and I will use just one example. Last year they cut five curriculum consultants. This year

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2793 they are cutting an additional curriculum consultant. In their own supplementary Estimates, they list as one of the tasks of that particular branch the systematic updating of programs to ensure relevant standards. Can the minister explain why this government is spending 17 percent less money on updating its curriculum so that it is relevant? What effect is that going to have on the quality of education for our young people? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey {Minister of Education and Training) : Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I think it is very important that we also maintain a sense of vision in terms of education in this province and that we do not fall into a sense of complete panic that things are all going wrong. Let me inform the member of some of the initiatives currently underway. Curriculum revisions are underway in the K-8 mathematics area, with emphasis on skill development in that area. We also hav e plans under way to produce a province-wide distance education calculus course. We are making major improvements in the science cur ri cul um. We are asses sing the English curriculum this May.

So we are in fact doing a great number of initiatives currently underway. Administrative Costs Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I was delighted at the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) who yelled across the House, more money, more money. Well, let me tell you what the Minister of Education has done. The Minis ter of Educat ion, while cutting curriculum consultants, has added 5.52 staff persons to Management Information Services. We are going to know how many kids fail, but we are not going to put any money into preventing them from failing.

Will the Minister of Education explain that? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey {Minister of Education and Training): First of all, let me remind the honourable memberth atthis government has in fact put more money into Education this year so that we can look at the issues relating to education. In addition to that, we have several projects currently underway, legislative reform being one, and also our own government's strategic plan, which points to the very issue that I think the member is raising, issues of accountability and making sure that our students come to a successful completion.

So I do not accept the information in her question. Core Curriculum Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speak er, yester day the Economic Council of Canada indicated that what we were doing was trying to teach the middle, that we had ignored the upper-end students and we had ignored the lower-end students. Well, this government has taken a very critical decision. They have decided that in Grade 10 they will eliminate specific curriculums for bright children and middle children and those who have difficulties in learning.

They have merged them all together in a core curriculum in the fields of language arts, social studies, history, geography. Can the minister explain why they have gone to a core curriculum when it is very clear that a core curriculum is not meeting the interests of the vast majority of students? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey {Minister of Education and Training): There is a core curriculum in Senior 1. We move then to areas of specialization in Senior 2 or Grade 10 , and in that, we look specifically at specialization in the area of math and science.

When we get to Senior 3 and Senior 4, there is a differentiation of curriculum . This is intended to give students-and we foll owed pedagogical advice to make sure that students in Senior 1 had a broad enough basis from which to continue their education and make important decisions. We are supporting students in the Senior 1 and Senior 2 level with the Student Support branch because we understand that it is not the rigor of the curriculum that causes young people to disengage but other reasons supported by the Student Support branch. * (1 355) GRIP Program Coverage Levels - Lentils Mr.John Plohman {Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, more and more farmers are painfully aware that GRIP in its present form is unfair and inequitable. We saw it yesterday when the farmers from Area 12 showed this government for its true colours, for its

2794 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 misman agement and hypocrisy with regard to GRIP. Now we have the lentil fiasco, with the minister's blatant 12 th-hour interference in the marketplace, something he says his government does not believe in. Yesterday a full month and a half after the contract called for making these announcements, Mr. Spe ake r, the min ister continued in his contemptible ways by showing complete disdain for this Legislature- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr.

Plohman: I ask this minister responsible for lentils why he did not at least have the courtesy to make the announcement with regard to the change in the coverage levels, the support levels for lentils in this House to the representatives. He should have made it months ago, but he at least- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): There is great difficulty associated with doing what we had to do yesterday. The lentil acres in 1990 were 55,000 acres, last year 13 5,000 acres. This year it looked like it would be 400,000 to 500,000 acres. Mr.

Speaker, we have informed our signatories that the price set for lentils has been too high. We have been saying that for 14 months. We have received in the last three weeks a number of letters and phone calls from producers and producer organizations saying that we must do something. The Manitoba agriculture societies said reduce it. The Manitoba Pulse Growers wrote and gave a number of conditions that were being basically violated in the marketplace by the program, and they said the current situation is brought about by an unrealistic target price in lentils.

The president of the Keystone Agricultural Producers phoned me on Monday and said: For the integrity of the program, the integrity of the industry and the integrity of using taxpayers' dollars, you have to do something. We went to the signatories committee this week-they met on Tuesday-and said: Would you look at the issue? They gave us a recommendation that we should do something in Manitoba, and that is what we had to do yesterday. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, this minister should have known this a year ago. He knew there was an increase in lentils.

Why did this mi nister not ma ke this announcement a month and a half ago? How can he justify the interference in the marketplace that he did yesterday after farmers have spent thousands of dollars on seed, and seed companies have purchased seed and inoculate for that seed? Where has this minister been for the last month and a half? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to remind the member of my answer to the first question that, for 14 months we have been talking about this, trying to get the National Grains Bureau and Agriculture Canada, who set those prices, to understand that the prices were unrealistically set. We have had a number of people in the industry, a number of people who are producers and farm organizations saying the same thing. We sought legal opinion to determine if the contract was violated. We did what we did, and the legal opinion said that as long as changes were made before April 30, it was legally correct to do so.

We did it in response to numerous inquiries from the industry and from producers. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, this program is more of a mess under the management of this minister every day. I want to ask this minister how he intends to compens ate those farm er s and those seed companies, such as the Farmers Co-op Seed Plant at Rivers, who have had 1 0 percent of their contracts, of their orders cancelled this morning, only this morning, since this min is ter's announcement at the last minute. How is he going to compensate them? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speak er , no th in g in our announcement prevented anybody from growing any number of acres they wanted to grow or any contracts they have signed. Noth ing in our announcement violated that. I would like to read what the executive director of the Manitoba Pulse Growers said yesterday. He said: Even after higher production costs are factored in, the support price for lentils guarantees farmers a significantly higher return than for other GRI P-insured crops, even after the reduction. They recognized that the support was far too high, relative to other crops, and structurally, it was the right decision to take.

We were promoted to do it by many people in the industry.

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2795 GRIP Program Coverage Levels - Risk Area 12 Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister who is one of the most popular people in rural Manitoba because of what he has done to the farming community. First he broke his promise, and then he made a delayed announcement on lentils. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he is going to honour his commitment which he made in writing to the representatives of Risk Area 12, making a commitment to make an adjustment in their coverage if there were changes.

Will he honour that commitment so they can go ahead and lobby the federal government to work on that for them as well? Hon. Glen Findlay {Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, a year ago, I set up a process involving farmers to come up with some legitimate numbers that we could advance to the federal government. As I said yesterday, I have written the federal government twice asking them to understand that this was necessary to be done. The committee has gone through its final report. I imagine the final report that all committee members approve will arrive on my desk shortly.

We continue to ask the federal government to look at those numbers and see if there is some way they can address the problem that has been in place, the inequity that has really been in place, in that area for some 20 years. * (1 400) Ms. Wowchuk: My question to the same minister is: Will this government live up to the word of their minister? Will they put the money in place and put the federal government on the line to see whether the federal government will stand up to his word? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, we have been talking to those growers for a long period of time, trying to find some mechanism that we could legitimately take some information to the federal government. I say, when that report comes in, we will continue to work with the fede ral government to see that the information in the report will be accepted for them for '91 or '92 or forever. Ms. Wowchuk: My question is still to the same minister. Will this government put the money on the line so that the federal government will then be obliged to make a decision? They have a letter saying they will do this.

They need somebody to stand behind this. I am sure many of his backbenchers would be happy to do it. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, in terms of putting money on the line, we put $50 million on the line for GRIP premiums for Manitoba farmers last year. It has generated a payout of some $300 million; $240 million has already gone out. The average per-acre payment to all farmers in Manitoba under revenue insurance is $44 an acre; Risk Area 12 , $51 an acre; and Risk Area 32, $49 an acre.

So substantive monies have been budgeted and already paid out to farmers to help them fight the incredible grain trade war that we are still in. Economic Growth Building Permits Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : Mr. Speaker, in each one of the five budgets that this Finance minister has tabled in the House and again yesterday, he continues to promise us that somehow prosperity is just around the corner, but his predictions to date have been rather faulty, to say the least.

Now when you look back over the last four years , when you look back at the statistics that are contained within Statistics Canada repor ts population, share of national wealth, share of retail trade, total jobs, full-time jobs, housing starts, wages and salaries-you find that Manitoba has done uniformly badly. Yesterday the minister referenced investment. I would like to ask the minister this question: How does he account for the fact that over the past four years, the share of total building permits in this country fell some 18 percent? In Manitoba they fell 28.9 percent.

How does he account for that difference in the performance in this province versus the national performance? Hon. Clayton Manness {Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the member has taken me a little bit unaware. I thought he was going to ask questions on bankruptcies today. Obviously, he could not find a selective area that suited his particular questions. As I indicated yesterday, when one looks at all of the statistical areas, one can pick and choose to set their own arguments.

I would like to say to the member opposite that economic growth of our province as compared to the national average for '92-and I think Manitobans today are trying to

2796 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 develop a confidence, indeed, all Canadians are, in their economy. I think they want to look forward, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say that I am assured that the American economy is beginning to pull out of its malaise. I am told by my economic advisers that if that occurs in the United States, then obviously consumer confidence will build here. Obviously then there will be an increase in housing starts, there will be an increase in perm its taken out for construction, and in time, of course, the economy will rebound.

I say to the member opposite, if he wants to focus on four years of the past, if he feels that he is serving his constituents in the best manner and reflecting on four years of numbers that have occurred over the year, he could probably accomplish an awful lot more if he would attempt to, with the government, try and find the best ways and support the government in trying to make Manitoba businesses competitive so that there will be employment. Spending money in every other field of government is not the way to do it. Mr. Alcock: Now, if I understand the minister's comment, Mr.

Speaker, he is asking me to support his four years of failure, and I am afraid I am unable to do that right now. I want to ask him a very simple question, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister explain to me why, after four years of his policy, we are doing worse on building permits in this province? A very simple question: Why have we done so much worse than the national average- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, again the member wants to select into an area. Why does he not ask the question about the capital investment intentions well above those in Canada?

Why does he not talk about retail sales up 7.4 percent in February com pared with the year previous, third best amongst the provinces? Why does he not talk about business bankruptcy figures as compared to other jurisdictions in Canada, where we are the third best amongst the provinces and, in the first three months of this year, a 14 percent drop from a year ago? Why does the member not want to dwell on those numbers and try to give some balance to his question?

No, all the member is trying to do is once again destroy the confidence of the consumers and the business people in this province for his own political gain, Mr. Speaker, and I say to him, shame. He has ulterior motives; he is out to destroy the economy in this province. He is contributing nothing. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, we have five years of intentions, and not one of them has proved out, not one of them. I want to ask the minister this very simple question. He has put in place a plan; he has had that plan working now for four years.

In the area of building permits, our performance is worse than that of the country. Can the minister please explain to us why that has occurred? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, it seems almost identical to the second question, which was identical to the first question. I can give again the same response as I did on the second question, but I know, when you are in opposition, you expect there to be instant fixes. I know, Mr. Speaker, we have had requests from the opposition benches that we should bring forward a stimulation budget.

Of course, what that was, was asking the government to spend considerably more in almost all areas of government or to increase taxes and/or to do anything to employ people. I am here to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the approach that we are taking is the correct one as is reflected in the financial markets, in the manner in which our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and indeed our Minister of Industry and Trade (Mr. Stefanson) can now access corporate boardrooms in the country with respect to the message as to what is occurring in our province to make our regime more competitive.

It is being reflected in the financial market, where today, for the first time in the history of Canada, our bonds are trading at a par and at a better value than Ontario's. Those are the measures of how our process is working. The course is the right one, and it is the course that we will continue to follow. Sewage Lagoon -O ak Point Environmental Concerns Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I have photographs with me today that show how a pit extended onto a previous landfill site has been used as a sewage lagoon near Oak Point. This pit has no liner.

It is not complying with the regulations for lagoons, and it has been allowed to spill over onto the adjacent land.

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2797 Residen ts are concerned that the proposed lagoon to replace this area is not the proper solution. How will the minister resolve concerns that the lagoon that is supposed to drain into Lake Manitoba from this site will not wipe out the fish breeding area or the recreational beach in the area? *( 1410) Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speak er, the member demonstrates why we need to work with a number of municipalities to make sure that their waste disposal and sewage handling processes are brought up to snuff.

We have had an ongoing process in that municipality to site a new lagoon, to site a new waste disposal ground. The department has worked closely with them in examining the plans that they have put forward, the studies that they put forward. The department laid down the conditions of a licence regarding the standard of effluent. The time of discharge and ali of the relevant information that was brought forward was taken into consideration, and a licence was issued. It is under the conditions of that licence that we will control and regulate and make sure there is no damage to the surrounding environment.

Environmental Impact Assessment Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): It is the minister's department that authorized this pit to be used in this manner. Can the minister then table the environment impact assessment that is going to show that there will not be any effect on fish stock and fish breeding ground on the reserve across the lake which draws its water from Lake Manitoba and to show that there has been ground water testing in this area to show that there has not been contamination from this lagoon? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Ali of the information that the department took into account in looking at the plans is public information. It was filed, and I am sure that the member can have access to that. Public Hearings Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Since there was no public hearing where the residents could have their concern- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Ms. Cerllll : Will the minister hold a public healing on the siting of this new lagoon in the Oak Point area? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, I regret to some extent that the type of disagreements upon which the member is basing her questions end up being brought to the floor of this Chamber, because in many ways this is not an environmental issue. It is a dispute between two communities about where this site should be located. It is a planning issue as much as it is an environment issue. The environmental restrictions that we can impose, the standards that we will require of operation are the responsibility that we will deal with and make sure that there is no damage.

The appeal that the member is ref erring to, a number of those issues were raised and were dealt with in the licence. As so often happens, Mr. Speaker-and I do not for one minute deny it-w hen municipal service sites such as this are located, there is always some concern raised and some disagreement about the location of it. There certainly is a good deal of disagreement by a small group, but they wer e clearly heard . The environmental issues were raised, and we believe we have dealt with it. Sewage Lagoon - Oak Point Licensing Process Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, ! can hardly believe that the Minister of Environment would say that this lagoon in Oak Point does not raise environmental issues. The fact is that the proposed lagoon is to be a nonstandard lagoon, with its outlet entering Lake Manitoba at a recreational and a fish-spawn ing zone. Many local residents have been and continue to be extremely concerned about the design and the effects of this lagoon on the local en vi ron me nt. It cert ainly is an environmental issue.

My question for the minister: Why, given these concerns which have been persistent from the very outset of this proposal from many of the local residents, did the minister not require a proper siting study of the project and did he not require a proper public hearing in front of the CEC to air those concerns and instead was content- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

2798 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, as I said at the outset, this has been a very troublesome process. The environmen tal matters that are associated with the siting of this lagoon, or any other service facility of this nature, have to be carefully watched. They have to be carefully designed and operations handled. The fact that the original siting was used improperly is now being corrected.

One of the reasons that this was not corrected over a period of time earlier was a disagreement about where a new facility would be most properly located. Mr. Speaker, the issues that were brought forward were, there is a judgment call as to whether they are dealt with directly by the licensing process or whether they go to a Cl ean Envir onmen t Commission hearing, and this one was deemed to have been capable of being dealt with within the licensing process, and that was what was done. Public Hearings Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Again, for the same mi nister, Mr.

Speak e r, th e mi ni ster recommended to local residents when they met with him that they go to mediation with the R.M. The R.M. declined to participate. My question for the minister is: Why, after recognizing that the concerns of the residents were worthy of a mediation proposal when it did not go ahead, did he not go the second step and in fact give a full public hearing process the opportunity for the residents to put forward their concerns to a board like the Clean Environment Commission to be heard and adjudicated upon? Why, after recognizing their concerns were valid, did he not do a full job? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Again, Mr. Speaker, while I do not think the member should characterize anything I said earlier as not being concerned about the environmental issues, there was also a planning issue that was within the jurisdiction of the municipality to make.

In the jurisdiction for which I am responsible, the licensing of any design and building and discharge that might occur in relationship to this facility was properly handled and will be properly regulated in the future to make sure, whether it is a city of Winn ipeg dis charge or whether it is a small community waste sewage collection site. They both have to be treated with equal care, and this one can be managed so there will be no impact on the surrounding environment, Mr. Speaker. Licensing Process - Appeal Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, finally, for the same minister.

An appeal of this licence by the residents is currently before the minister. We are advised that the minister has privately told the R.M. that they can start tendering this without having released publicly the results of the appeal . Has the minister in fact made up his mind on this �ppeal, and if so, why did his department privately Inform the R.M. before making the decision public in the normal course? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Again, Mr. Speaker, someone is either misinformed or has chosen to take a different tack on this.

Environment licence is valid during the time of appeal, and if the municipality choose s to proceed to go to tender or to get bids on construction of a site during that period, they are quite entitled to do so. The results of the appeal and the reasons behind any decisions that are made around that will be made public in the appropriate time frame, and all people involved will have a copy and full access to that information. Social Assistance Off-Reserve Status Indians Mr. Doug Martlndale(Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, the federal government's withdrawal of 1 00 percent social assistance funding for status Indians living off reserves will cost $8.7 million a year for the City of Winnipeg, in addition to the capping of welfare rates, which will cost them $5 million, for a total of $13.7 million, which will result in a 5 percent increase in civic taxes if the city is forced to pick up all of these costs. What is the Minister of Family Services doing to avert a crisis in the City of Winnipeg, which is the result of the Province of Manitoba doing nothing In the face of Ottawa's withdrawal of funding? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I reject that the province is doing nothing about the withdrawal of federal funding. We have made a very strong stand on this issue, and we used to have the support of the opposition. I am disappointed that they have changed their position on that. We also have the Manitoba Assembly of Chiefs, the UMM and the MAUM organizations supporting us in our dispute with Ottawa. We do not accept this

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2799 change in funding and are continuing to reject it and will continue to make an issue of this until the federal government has agreed to reinstate this funding. 811170 Amendments Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Will the Minister of Family Services amend Bill 70 in order to prevent a massive tax increase for city taxpayers, estimated at 5 percent? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): It is interesting that opposition members have yet to speak on the bill, and the member is asking us for an amendment.

We have brought that legislation before the House and given it second reading and look forward to members' comments on that legislation. If the member is here to solve some of the financial pro blems of a mun icipal level of government, I encourage him to speak with city councillors and maybe give them some direction on ways in which he would see them changing their budget. We are working with the SARC committee, which has a member, a city councillor, on that committee. They have presented a report to government. We have basically accepted that report and are bringing in legislation based on that SARC report. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. * (1 420) Nonpolitical Statements Mrs. Louise Dacq ua y (Seine Ri ver) : Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed) Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great sense of pride to rise today to wish a group of Manitobans the best of luck as they set off to celebrate Canada's 12 5th Birthday in a very unique manner. During the first three weeks of May, 11 Manitobans will attempt to climb Mount Manitoba in Kluane National Park in the Yukon Territory. Mount Manitoba is 1 1, 150 feet high and is part of a range of 14 mountains called the Centennial Range.

In 19 67, as a centennial project, the Alpine Club of Canada, which was founded in Winnipeg in 19 06, organized a large expedition to first ascend all 14 mountains. The 19 67 expedition, however, was unsuccessful in its attempt on our namesake mountain. The present expedition will face many logistical, climatic and physical challenges during their attempt to climb Mount Manitoba. However, the rewards outweigh the challenges they will face. First ascents are a rare opportunity and a great honour, and it is only appropriate that the mountain that bears our provincial name be ascended first by Manitobans.

This expedition has been well su pp orted by many local bus in esses and individuals. Regardless of the outcome of the climb, we fellow Manitobans revel in the climbers' sense of vision and their resolve to once more bring Manitoba to the forefront of discovery and achievement. Some of the members of the climbing team are with us here today. Tibor Bodi, a constituent of mine, is one of the three climb leaders, and Peter Muir and Dan Dunbar also comprise a part of this team .

The other memb ers of the team, who regrettably were unable to be with us today, are Peter Aitchison, Bob France, also both climb leaders, as well as Rich ard Tiley, Dennis Cunn ing ham, Jeff Aitchison, Pat Dellis tone, Raphael Munoz, Shane Petroff and reporter Catherine Mitchell, who will be along to capture the efforts in print. On behalf of all the members of the House and all Manitobans, I would like to wish the expedition a safe and successful climb and emphasize to them that whatever the results of their attempt, all Manitobans can say with pride that Mount Manitoba is indeed ours. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed) I just want to again add other words of the Legislature to congratulate the team on its ascent on Mount Manitoba and the courage and the endurance and the physical agility that is necessary for this great achievement. We congratulate all members of the team, and we just want to add to the words of the memb er for Seine River (Mrs.

Dacquay) to cong ratula te you on your accomplishment and wish you all the best on your many accomplishments, and may all of us have the achievement that you are able to achieve on behalf of the people of Manitoba on this very great accomplishment. Thank you very much. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed]

2800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 I, too, would like to add some words of support and congratulations to the team. It is ironic, when one comes from a prairie province, to think that we have an alpine club and an alpine team. I would like just to reflect for a second on what they are about to take on. Mountain climbing is something that I have only limited experience with, but it is one of those pursuits that man throughout the ages has followed, in part, "because it is there." Is that not the way they say it?

It is an attempt to show that we can conquer those obstacles that nature has put before us. But it is not a recreational jaunt; climbing an 11 ,000-foot mountain is not a walk. It is a very perilous and dangerous journey that they are about to embark on. I wish them all the support we can and Godspeed as they go to climb Mount Manitoba. Thank you very much. *** Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek}: Mr. Speaker, do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed] Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to stand today to recognize the accomplishments of a group of students from my constituency.

On April 29, 19 92, the Silver Heights Collegiate Reach for the Top team won the Manitoba provincial championships held at Dakota Collegiate. The team from Silver Heights won by defeating the team from Carberry. Mr. Speaker, I unde rstand that Carberry is in your constituency, and alii can say is: Better luck next time. The winning team from Silver Heights Collegiate was comprised of Geoff King, Rick Moore, Kaj Hasselriis and Mike Van de Vijsel, and was coached by Mr. Ron Baillie.

The team alternates were Yaw Amoah-Gyampoh, Jason Cook, Robyn Holmes and Kelly Cassidy, who have provided intense daily practice for the team and will likely comprise the team for the school next year. The Silver Heights team will represent Manitoba in the national championships in London, Ontario, from May 22 to May 24, 19 92. This win represents the fourth consecutive provincial championship for Silver Heights and their fifth win in the last six years. This is a feat that is unmatched in the rest of Canada and bodes well for their future teams.

I would ask that the members of the House join with me in wishing the Silver Heights Reach for the Top team the best of luck in the Canadian championships next month and in their future competitions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. *** Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed] Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition}: I would like to rise today and pay tribute to the two Manitobans who have been awarded the Order of Canada in this country and announced yesterday in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker.

Fred Penner has been appointed to the Order of Canada, and of course, Arthur Braid from Manitoba has been appointed to the Order of Canada. I was pleased to see this. I had the pleasure of attending the Happy Feet concert on Sunday with my daughter and Ginny over the weekend. It was my daughter's first concert. She is two years old. I think she knows the words to every song, which really scares me because I cannot remember the words to any song, as anybody knows from any of those lip-sync contests or anything else we have to do. The concert was terrific. I think the adults enjoyed it even more than the children.

He has a special infectious quality that has been passed on to families right across North America in his performances, whether they are on television, whether they are on tapes or videos. I also know that the Cat's Meow Band that performs with Fred Penner is a terrific band. It is made up, of course, of Manitobans. Gordie Osland, of course, is the executive director of the Children's Festival. In fact, I think part of the concert this weekend was going to the Manitoba Children's Festival

schedule in June of this year. Many other members of the band, of course, have tremendous musical reputations as well as their reputations in performing for children right across, as I say, this continent. So congratulations to the Happy Feet of Fred Penner and his musical talent and to me mber s of his band for this great achievement, the Order of Canada. I also want to pay tribute to Arthur Braid. Arthur Braid has been a long-time crusader on behalf of law, on behalf of scholarship and scholars, on behalf of teaching at the university, and he has been very, very involved as the president of the Canadian Paraplegic Association and vice-chancellor of the Diocese of Rupertsland.

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2801 Many members of this legislature will know Arthur Braid. He has been a member of the Board of Governors at the University of Manitoba for a number of years. He has also been very involved in presentations dealing with issues affecting disabled people. He has been invol ved constantly in the formulation of law, the formulation of policies and the presentation of briefs and legal advice at committee hear ings. So congratulations to two great Manitobans on their award of the Order of Canada in Ottawa, yesterday. Thank you very much. *** * (1 430) Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed] Mr. Speaker, my message is not going to be quite as happy as the message that we just received from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). As I was reading my newspaper today, I read of the death of Brian Pockar. Brian Pockar is a figure skater, or was a figure skater and was a Canadian champion for a number of years. He died today of AIDS, which is beginning to strike all of us. I have to say this was the first time it struck me personally.

I taught Brian when he was a little boy, but more importantly, I remember Brian skating at the Winter Club when my children were out there on their skates, pretty wobbly. Brian was one of those young figure skaters, and they are not always like this, less concerned with his own development than he was with the whole beauty and art of figure skating. I remember him many days coming by and picking up Jenny and putting her back on her skates so that she could make another circle around the rink or doing the same to Cathi when she failed as well. He was a very bright boy, very bright.

He had tremendous intellectual capacity, at one point considered seriously becoming a doctor but then became so involved in the pursuit of his athletic career that his academics were put on hold while he did pur sue that career and was extr emely successful. I think it is important for all of us in the House today to recognize that AIDS is very much with us.

It is something that each and every one of us has to deal with on a personal basis as to our attitudes towards it, but now we are also having to deal with it on a personal basis, as those whom we know and care about find that their lives have been taken because of this dreadful disease. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness {Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself Into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. * (1 440) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH The Acting Deputy Chairperson {Mr. Bob Rose) : Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Health. When the com mittee last sat, it had been considering item 4. Provincial Mental Health Services, (

a) Administration: on page 85 of the Estimates book. Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels {St. Johns) : Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the first question I have is with respect to the indication this past Tuesday from the minister that some announcement would be made today regarding the Urban Hospital Council and Misericordia specifically. I am wondering if the minister could indicate when that might now be taking place since it did not happen today. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Acting Dep uty Chairperson, late yesterday afternoon it was drawn to our attention that not all

2802 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 the member s of the Urban Hospital Council would be present today. Given that it was the first announcement and had some potential impact on the Urban Hospital Council, it was decided to defer the meeting until Wednesday of next week and that is when it has been rescheduled for. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I do not want to take up a lot of time on this, but I am trying to figure out just where the commu nity health assessment fits into this process. The Wolseley residents comm ittee is involved in some sort of health task force and doing a commu nity assessment.

Will the recommenda tions coming out of the Urban Hospital Council with respect to the Misericordia be it all made pending the findings of this commu nity committee or how do the two processes fit together? Mr. Orchard: We ll, in ma ny ways the two processes do not fit togeth er as cu rrently envisioned.

When we established the Urban Hospital Council and tasked a number of specific issues to them, the process was to involve issue identification, government Urban Hospital Council memb ers, striking of investigation groups, task force working groups to come around the issue, hopefully bringing together a significant amount of expertise around the issue and then make recommendations to the Urban Hospital Council, which would then choose to pass it on to government. It was at the time that government makes the recommen dation that we would have to consider public input into the decision-making process.

At the time there was no specific forum and given the amount of discussion around the two issues in terms of Misericordia specifically, like the emergency room operating hours was one issue that was often advanced and the second one being the acute psychiatric beds. The Wolseley Residents' Association called a meeting in the area to try and get some thought process around that. I was not at that meeting, I was unable to attend but my deputy attended. I believe following that, not prior to, I had a meeting.

Following the public meeting, we had a meeting of myself, my deputy with the some of the key memb ers of the Wolseley Residents' Association. From that, and they expressed some of the concerns because they did not appreciate that without a report from the Urban Hospital Council there was a lot of speculation around what was going to happen. With speculation usually only a part of the information is available and usually it is the most alarming part.

When they saw that there was a lot more balance to the process, then their perception was, I think it is fair to say, they then wanted to know what role an association like theirs might have in terms of commu nity involvement and commun ity discussion of the issue. That is being explored and the proposal that I think has come back is one of a commu nity health assessment. Right now, there is a proposal that has been made to see whether we can support them with funding, and right now I have not made a decision on that, or government has not made a decision on that.

That is sort of where we are at, and I guess the Wolseley Residents' Association, as I indicated after the first meeting-! mean, I can remember that association going back to, save the Wolseley elms, back in my quite substantial youth many years ago. This is an association that has had a considerable am ount of longev ity, and for government to undertake a discussion process with them, there is some legitimate approach, an� am looking for the right words-a legitimate request can be made.

Where I am concerned is that this will set an example where every community will then ask government, give us money and we will take on an assessment, and there is really no end to the bou nds of that. The Wolseley Reside nts' Associa tion, as I say, has hi story. Many organizations might come forward without the same focus on the commu nity, withoutthe same longevity. For instance, what would we do with the City Council structure of the-1 do not know what the right name is-the commu nity comm ittees? I could not entertain a request from community comm ittees to undertake such a study.

Before I accede to this--and I want to accede to this request by the Wolseley Residents' Association because of their history-1 am careful that we do not create expectations that groups can come to government expecting fundings based on a precedent, but clearly, to answer my honourable friend's question, a year ago, had you asked how the Wolseley Residents' Association might fit in this, I would have said I do not know. Today, they want their part. They want to understand the issue from the fullest standpoint; in other words, from what the challenges are behind government and what government's overall plan is

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2803 so they can offer critique as to where its strengths and weaknesses are, where it can fit or not fit and hopefully influence the decision of government in the longer haul. I believe there is an understanding that some of these current issues are maybe beyond the ability because of an agen da that has been well established beyond the ability of the health study to influence, but their approach is to take a look at the commu nity in terms of the context of the reform of the health care system.

It is from that standpoint that I do see a purpose, but I do not know what the bounds are of who you would fund, how you would set up criteria to make decisions, and that is why to date no decision has been made. I think my honourable friend can see the kind of potential quagmire of requests that government could find themselves in if you accede to one group which I do not think anybody in this room would say does not have longevity and legitimacy and have done a lot of things for that community.

I have been in politics long enough to know that the first exception is the precedent, and that is what I am trying to get my mind around. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: The minister may not have acceded to any clear commitment to fitting the recom men dations of this com mun ity heal th assessment into government decision making, but the government did accede to providing some dollars, as I understand it, to this communi ty committee for a health needs assessment. I may be wrong or maybe that is still on. Mr.

Orchard: The proposal was there and it has been taken seriously enough to be advanced to myself, and I have questions around it before I can give the final approval. My honourable friend seems to be indicating there is an expectation that it is a done deal, and if that is the case, no, not yet, and for the reasons that I have specified, not the fact that they could not do a very good ser vice to the com mun ity and assist government in many ways. It is a brand new venture and I want to have parameters around it so that we just simply do not open the floodgates. * (1 450) Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Two quick questions then. By when will the minister make a decision with respect to funding for the Wolseley Residents' Association, and, secondly, when does the minister now anticipate an announcement from the Urban Hospital Council pertaining to the Misericordia situation? Mr. Orchard: On the first question, with Wolseley Residents' Association, as soon as possible, but I will be very blunt. Estimates and a number of other agendas have not allowed us a full discussion around the precedent that we may be setting and how we contain requests like that.

As soon as we get a little freed-up time, we will be able to make that decision fairly quickly.

As I indicated, I think there is some acceptance by the Wolseley residents comm ittee that government, in terms of its planning agenda and the work that has been done on a number of the issues, particularly the psychiatric bed issue, will have to make its own decisions, so that their input at this late stage of the game-1 do not think they are expecting that they would have the opportunity to influence the decision, but guide the implemen tation possibly or show the weaknesses of where some of the commu nity planning comes in, but to fundamentally impact on the decision, no.

Second question, it is antici pated that the rescheduled Urban Hospital Council meeting for Wednesday next will present the recommendations around the psych beds for the city of Winnipeg, and spe cifical ly, I thi nk it is no secret, around Misericordia. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I just want to get a sense of timing of a number of announcements that the minister has indicated he will be making. There is some indication, I think, from the minister that he would be by next week announcing some overall hospital policy or health reform policy generally. Is that still coming next week, or if not, when? Mr.

Orchard: Hopefully next week, and I say that because I think that may well be achievable. I wanted to have that done a month ago, and it has consumed an enormous amount of time developing such a proposal, but we are very close to having that completed, and I am hopeful that next week is the time when we can make the discussion paper and the action plan very public. I sim ply say to my honou rable friend that unforeseens may derail that, but it is my intention or my wish that we be able to do that next week. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: While we are on unforeseens, would the minister be able to tell us today when we might see the capital estimates?

2804 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 Mr. Orchard: Yes, I can do that. I was thinking we might pass Mental Health, and then we could get into the discussion, because I was expecting this discussion when we hit the next line. A series of dynamics in terms of the internal planning, and I am going to make a proposition to both my critics, and I will make sure my second critic can-1 am going to make a proposition. The sense that I have is that we are winding down Estimates, okay?

I am not going to be able to present the capital budget by Monday if that was the anticipated day when we might complete Estimates. The proposal that I would make is that we deal with the capital-and I have some logistical problems that are going to make the end of May the time when I think I am going to have the capital budget. I will explain why-and would it fit that we deal with the capital budget in concurrence motion?

If that does not fit, I would suggest that what we could consider is passing the Estimates, and leave only my Minister's Salary open, and come back with capital estimates for a debate on my Minister's Salary and at the end of May when I expect to have capital planning developed, the reform paper, the reform agenda, will be there and it would open up a discussion for that as well, if my honourable friends want to. I simply say, that despite efforts, I will not have capital program for Monday. The sense that I was getting was that we would probably wind up the Estimates process. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Let me indicate that we will have to, at least from my perspective, want to think about this and I will want to talk to my caucus colleagues about it.

I have to say that just when I had thought we could see the light at the end of the tunnel and we would be out of this awful process, I am not very excited about having to reopen all of this at the end of May, but I certainly will report back to my caucus that you do not expect the capital estimates to be ready until the end of May and that you are offering either the option of dealing with it in concurrence or keeping the Minister's Salary open, that line open, and dealing with it in May. Okay. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr.

Acting Deputy Chai rperson, I think from my point of view and our caucus's point of view it will be good to have a committee and debate when we have a health care reform as we are with capital funding, but certainly I have to still check with caucus because I do not have the privilege or right to make those decisions. I do not want to pretend that I do have, but certainly from a health care point of view probably it will make more sense if we can have both at the same time and then probably we may need some more time.

If you are going to discuss the health care reform and if the package is going to come, I think that will be a good way of opening up the discussion and give us some more time rather than only a short time in Question Period. I would have no difficulty. It could be politically dangerous for the minister, but I think it will be good for us. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, look, I fully recognize that a month from now It could be a significantly more disadvantageous time for me to return to ask for my salary as a line of debate. Let me just tell you two things. I did not do this with deliberation.

We have been working on the reform paper and I simply tell you that is the major reason why my deputy, for Instance, has not been at Estimates because he has been signi ficantly inv olved in that. It has been a considerably greater consumer of all of our time and that is one of the reasons for the delay around the consideration of the capital estimates. But also, I will tell you straight out, capital estimates, because we have changed the location, you will recall a discussion we got into about why the capital planning is in Healthy Public Policy and not attached to the commission.

The reason was that when attached to the institutional side it was institutional driven. Moving it out, we have changed and we have challenged a number of proponents of capital projects to rethink the context from a system-wide standpoint because of where we are coming from, from a system-wide standpoint. That has added the second element of delay. The capital estimates that I hope to present will show a greater direction than what they have in the past of sort of renewing facilities when the time expired, et cetera, et cetera.

There will be a much greater, I think, degree of clarity in the capital estimate presented a month from now in the context of the reform of the health care system and some of the changes that we envision happening over the next couple of years. I think the document will be much more relevant to the future of health care than it would be if I was to rush one through. I can tell you quite frankly that what I considered doing was simply bringing in a capital document that had two or three changes in it only and nothing else, and everything else on pause, without context of

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2805 balance and explanation behind it. All that would have done was raised a whole series of questions, why, why, why, which I would not be prepared to answer as fully as I think I will be able to be prepared to answer come the end of the month. So there was not anything deliberate. * (1 500) I will tell you the other side. Even though it is a politic al downside for me to reopen Health Estimates after a discussion paper on reform is public and been around for a couple or three weeks, it also allows us to talk about where it is right and where it is wrong.

I have said it, and I have had a numb er of me etings around the issue with professional groups and others, that, and I would say it to them very directly, health care is changing, and many of us recognize that. I mean, it was recognized yesterday in the presentation. Things are going to change in the health care system. We believe we have put together an appropriate amount of underpinning to guide the change.

I do not recognize, and I do not ever confess that what we propose will be flawless and universally agreed to, but what I have said to those who may well disagree with the process is I am listening, but not just for disagreement but for a suggestion as to how to do it differently and accomplish the same thing. Even though it is a political downside for me, it is also a political upside for me in that I am going to challenge critics, both of you and your respective parties, that if you do not like what is happening, let us get around to talking about what we should do.

If your suggestion is better than what we have been able to put together, I have not hesitated to accept that, but it is a debate that will not be just a hair pull. I am not even concerned about that, but I would far sooner have my Estimates done with, rather than come back. If that is a proposal that both critics could take back to their respective caucuses, I have talked to my House leader, and he agrees with either process, either dealing with it on the concurrence motion or leaving the salary open and then coming back and debating it then.

It does not matter to him which way, and so I can say the proposal I make, either one that is accepted by the opposition parties will be acceptable to us. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think that will give us a good opportunity to put our views on the record also. My only concern is time, how much time will be given, if the House leaders can work that out.

Also, I think if there was a possibility of the package being released in advance so that other people in terms of professionals and groups can come and participate and the media will have the opportunity more to scrutinize the whole process, and they can also develop their viewpoint, which is going to be a very important point of view-how the message will go across. I think that will be very positive for the taxpayers. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, we could not open up this committee to public input, but clearly, by the time-let us say that it is the end of May or towards the end of May when we revisit the Estimates, by then I would expect at least three weeks of public discussion around the reform paper, so that those opinions will be out there and could be discussed in this comm ittee amongst the two critics and myself. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Back to Men tal Health Services, I would like to get an understanding of this organizational chart of who is who. I know that Mr. Toews is ADM for this whole area.

I understand that John Ross is an executive director. Could the minister clarify for what? Mr. Orchard: Well, you might recall that Richard Voss has taken about a 20-month, or thereabouts, contract with the government of Bermuda, and John Ross wh�l am correct, John was in the competition originally, but Richard Voss was the successful candidate in the competition for that position. John was second place in terms of the competition, and rather than reopen the competition, we approached Mr. Ross to see whether he would consider taking on the role.

We did that very deliberately because it was a very close competition. Either of the individuals, we wer e sati sfied , could have undertaken the role quite well, but for a number of reasons, including where Mr. Ross was working, the decision was made to go with Mr. Voss at the time. We are into a very, very advanced workload in mental health reform . We could not leave that position open for a period of time, and, fortunately, Mr. Ross accepted the challenge, came over and is occupying that position. Ms. Wasylycl a-Lels: Mr. Acting Dep uty Chairperson, I believe Mr. Ross was in Family Services.

My ques tion is jus t sim ply, what

2806 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 experience or background does he have in the whole mental health field? Mr. Orchard: Program experienc e, of course, came from the regional, because he served both Health and Family Services in regional services planning, but management skills were equally as im portant to us in having the individual in the job. As I said, in the competition from which Mr. Voss was selected, it was a close competition with not all that much to choose between the two, so moving over, we did not compromise the role and the under tak ing. We had two very com petent candidates. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: The minister had suggested a little while ago that if I had concerns about the cross-cultural counselling unit, that I should raise them again at this point, so I would like to do that briefly. Since our last discussion, I understand that there has been in fact a decision made with respect to not a direct financial contribution from the government to the cross-cultural counselling unit but, in fact, a secondment of an individual from the department to this program for a considerable period of time. I am wondering why that decision was made.

What kind of cost-effective analysis was applied in that decision? What will it mean for the program? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we are working with Mount Carmel to try and see whether a secondment or an individual service might be made available. The decision may be in 10 days or so. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Is the minister saying that no decision has been made with respect to moving a person from the Mental Health Division, from his department, to Mount Carmel Clinic for purposes of co-ordinating the cross-cultural counselling unit? Mr. Orchard: That is what I am saying.

The proposal is under discussion. Ms. Wasyl ycla -Le ls: Mr. Acti ng Deputy Chairperson, could the minister indicate, as part of that proposal, who the individual is and what salary he or she is now making. • (1 510) Mr. Orchard: No, I cannot, and even if I knew that I am not going to indicate that today because we are in discussions and negotiations. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister indicate if he will provide us with some information once the decision is made in terms of the individual, the terms of the agreement and an analysis from the point of view of cost-effecti ve ness?

I am thinking specifically in terms of a fairly small grant request from this unit for helping them make a transition between no funding to United Way funding as opposed to a fairly, what I understand, high-paid civil servant being moved over to this program . Mr. Orchard: I will provide the details of the arrangement when we complete them. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Just one more question on the cross-cultural counselling unit.

The last time we discussed this, there was clearly a difference of opinion and we were operating from different perspectives around what had transpired over the last number of months or the last year or so.

It was my understanding based on letters from the Mount Carmel Clinic Board and from discussions with people in the field that, in fact, there had been information passed to the department as early as the fall of 19 91 and that there were discussions at the branch level and that there in fact was a proposal put forward from the branch to the minister for consideration of some sort of funding either on an interim basis or an ongoing basis. Has the minister reviewed that situation? Can he indicate if that was the case? Mr.

Orchard : I am told that we wer e not considering provincial funding until a meeting that was held on January 22, 19 92. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Well, I am not going to pu rsue it. Obviously, the part of my qu estion concerning discussions taking place between the department and the program as early as the fall of 19 91 , the minister is going to ignore that part of it. I will not pursue it at this point.

I do not think it really matters except I think it is important to not discredit any commu nity group and to indicate that they were fairly rigorous about informing the government of their situation and seeking funding at the earliest possible opportunity. I would like to ask just a couple of questions about the issue I was pursuing the other day and then make a suggestion that I had hinted at earlier.

I went back to review material in this whole area of mental health services because of the attack I was under by both the Minister of Health and the Liberal Health critic about my questions pertaining to optimum number of beds and sort of an overall framework for making health care reform decisions.

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2807 Under such an attack, I start to question myself and wonder if maybe I have been off base and not retaining information very well, but upon pursuing numerous studies in this field, I realized that what I was asking for was not at all out of line or out of question, that it was very much a part of any planning process around health care reform. Every study I looked at talked about determining what is an appropriate number of beds in an ideal situation with the proper community supports in place and proper dispersal of those beds across regional lines.

Those numbers vary. I know from studies in the United States that an optimal number of beds is considered to be 19 to 20 per 100,000. I see from the Manitoba Health Organization's own study that this is a very active issue for discussion, that in fact the MHO report-and this is very recent-of May 1990 makes clear recommendation that the department carry out an epidemiological study so that there is a framework from which to make decisions about health care reform. This MHO report talks about what is an ideal number of beds per capita.

It talks about the ideal number of psychiatrists for a population base, it makes all kin ds of reco mm en dations and suggestions for further study to get at that information. I want the record to show for the benefit of both the Minister of Health and for the Liberal Health critic that it is a reasonable and sensible way to go. It is not ludicrous or silly or frivolous for anyone to be asking these kinds of questions and to be suggesting that the department has this kind of base information before it pursues a major task such as mental health reform.

I would assume that in fact the department has such undertakings and some base-line information and should be able to tell us the current state of affairs with respect to beds and patients, where they are at, what their needs are right now. Under ideal situations, with proper community supports and dispersement of beds and services throughout a province, like Manitoba, that provides the basis for further decision making and health care reform. I am not about to now ask for all that information.

However, I think it would be useful for the minister to provide us with the precise number of beds now, optimal number of beds based on the department's studies, precise numb er of psychiatrists per population now, ideal ratio between psychiatrists and population, the types of support services that should be part of any kind of health care reform program, the gaps in programs right now, the recidivism rates of mental health patients, and on and on and on. Instead of asking all of that, I would make the following suggestion .

We have all received questions provided by the Canadian Mental Health Association for the purposes of helping us through this Estimates process and giving us some suggestions. They have sent these questions to all of us including the minister. In the interest of saving time and pursuing this whole area in a constructive way, I would ask the minister if he could provide us with a written response to all of those questions as soon as it is possible from the departmenfs workload point of view. Mr. Orchard: When did that survey come in? Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: You mean the request, the questions-April 23.

It is very recent. Mr. Orchard: I have to tell my honourable friend I have not seen the survey, but normally we try to reply to those surveys. I have no hesitation in making my honourable friends part of the reply that we would make back to the Canadian Mental Health Association. Mr.

Cheema: I wanted to ask some questions on the same survey, but I think it will be best that way, because each and every member does have the copies-if the minister would make the efforts through his department to get to some of the real numbers and some of the answers the Mental Health Association is seeking, and if we could also get copies of those surveys. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I presume each political party is to reply, and no doubt they would give me the same courtesy of having the ministry availed of the wisdom of their reply in the surveys as well.

I am willing to share our thinking, if you can share yours. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Maybe the minister did not understand the actual question and suggestion. This is actually a set of questions that is prepared every year for all of us to help us through the Estimates process. They are questions directed in terms of the department's activities, and normally we would have the time and advance notice to be able to go through these questions to pick and choose and ask the minister directly for verbal response.

In the interest of saving time, given where we are at in Estimates, my suggestion is that the minister take a look at this and wherever

2808 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 possible, where the information exists and it is not a problem for him, to give us the written response to each of those questions rather than us taking up the time now to do it. Mr. Cheema: I would agree with the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). The questions are in terms of the numbers and some of the things which are already happening within the department of mental health.

They are not policy questions to each and every party. * (1 520) So probably for us to go through all of them, if we have the time, I think we would love to do it, because it is quite important for them to know how the reform is coming along. I am sure the minister would like to have our views. They are well known, they are all over the place, and we are not going to change them today or tomorrow. They will be there until we die probably. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I just wanted to add a couple of comments. The member for St.

Johns has said a few things, and she has expressed her views on what I said the other day. I think it is very important that if the target numbers and ever yth ing wer e kno wn, if ev ery thing were functioning so well, why do we have a problem now? We are having a reform because those things are not functioning. When you are reforming a system, you want to reform to the best of your ability and be flexible and make sure the patient care does not suffer. That is the ideal situation.

But if somebody will be so ingenious as to give the numbers in reform, that person probably will get the Order of Canada in health care in this country right now. It is very difficult to find those numbers. We are talking about the mental health system. I am not talking about, in general, the others, and there is other data available. The member for St. Johns has said that. I was specifically talking about the Manitoba health reform. I just want that to be on the record, because there was in no way a reflection on the whole process, but I think it is a very important point.

Specifically, you do not want to target. If we would have a target point, then somebody would say: You know, I do not agree with your target; you have already made up your mind; you already know what you want to do. So how do you reform? Reform has to have real meaning attached to it. That means consultation. That means making tough choices. That means being flexible. That means being practical. That means having a look at the ability of the taxpayer to pay for the cost. I think those things have to be taken into account. I just want to add those comments.

My question is, the one I was asking the other day on the Brandon area, the Westman region, what kind of policies and things are going to be taking place there. I have received a letter-and so has the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and so has the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia- Lels), and the minister, Jim McCrae, the Honourable Jim McCrae, the min ister responsible -f rom the concerned citizens in the Brandon and area Mental Health Care Providers. Mary Wright is the president of the organization. These are the group home health care providers for the mentally ill patients.

They have a very serious concern and a very realistic one, and I would like the minister's staff to review those concerns because--[interjection] Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson- An Honourable Member: What is the date on that? Mr. Cheema: The date is March 11. In fact, I met with the group the other day, and their concern is a very real one. The concern Is that they have patientHow you want to call them ?-c lients, whatever name you want to give them.

I do not want to alienate any group, naming specific patients, but certainly, with the number of patients they are taking care of in their homes, there are certain difficulties they are experiencing. Specifically why I am saying that right now is because, when the system is going to be reformed in that area, a number of patients who are already within the system, are going to go into the community to some extent.

If there is already a problem within the system, I think we should correct it and make sure that some of the major issues are respite care, hiring and firing people, quality control and assurance of mental health services, issues of backup system, issues of the crisis centre, issues in terms of providing security to the individuals who are going to be providing the care, whether they are going to get some kind of training. Those are very, very real issues, and I would ask the minister, his staff, to meet with the group. They are not complaining. They are, they were, working on a nonpolitical basis.

That is why they have sent

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2809 to all of us. I took the opportunity to meet with them, and I made a commitment that I will discuss the issue. We do notwant to make any negative impact out of that. I think we have to look at the problems and try to solve them, specifically the regional Manitoba health council, have a look at the letter and try to meet with the group and see what can be done right now. I think that will help, and they will feel more comfortable.

There are a lot of patients they have in their care, a lot of them, I think about 60 or 65, probably more, but that is only one group. They may have more patients in their care. I can give a copy of the letter to the minister and ask them to have a look at the system.

I think that will help to come to grips with some of the changing needs of these patients, especially in that area and specifically in those communities where it is not easy for them to, in the case of urgent need, go to a given hospital and get the treatment; for example, somebo dy in Dauphin or other places where eventually the patient has to be moved. If you do not have a backup system, you do not have a special client-oriented system, then we will have problems. It will probably take one or two patients to really go into the situation and then quote, unquote, the mental health system.

The interest groups will be very upset, and that may cause some problem, butthat can be improved. The time is there. I do not think we have lost any time. That can be corrected. If it is possible for even the minister's office to be in touch with them and meet with the group, that is a major group. They are not just one or two individuals. The families who are involved in their care are also concerned because of the many issues that are involved.

As I said, the emergency care, the respite care and then, for example, if somebody has a mentally ill patient in their home for 365 days a year, it is very tough for them to continue to provide care. If they have to hire somebody else, how do they do it? Secondly, what kind of requirements are going to be put in place, and thirdly, what kind of training?

When are you going to release more clients into the community, there has to be some kind of training or some kind of expert opinion available as a backup system within the community, especially during the week after five o'clock, or weekends, or nights, there have to be crisis lines where they can reach and ask for simple advice. That would be helpful because sometimes patients get very aggressive, and things can really get worse. I think that would be one pitfall if-and not only specifically with this group home system, but anything else. I think that needs to be looked at.

I am sure the Regional Mental Health Council are probably already doing it, but I am not aware of that. If they can get in touch with this group, that would be very, very valuable. I will get the copy both to the minister's office Mr. Orchard: Just to let my honourable friend know, the letter was referred to the regional council with the hope that they would meet. I do not know whether they have been able to arrange the meeting, but, yes, we take those concerns quite seriously because, I guess it is fair to say, we are not dealing with oftentimes easy to manage situations.

It is going to present, in my opinion, quite a different challenge than, for instance, respite care for seniors in the long-term care progr am. There gets to be significant comfort around familiar surroundings for someone with mental illness who is living in the community, and a disruption of that can be pretty traumatic and difficult to handle. I guess what we are trying to do is develop a common-sense approach to handle the issues, to provide that kind of support with a sensitivity around how difficult it may be to manage in some individual cases. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, this is not one or two cases, and these are patients who are in the community already. Some of the patients are going to be released into the community when you are going to have changes at the Brandon Mental Health Centre. These individuals are not negative or they are not critically oriented. I wantto make it very clear. They just came to us because we were the first ones. We just made a call and we made an effort for them to come and speak to us so that we can get a first-hand idea.

It was knowledge for me even personally to know that such and such things were happening. * (1 530) They are concerned, and they said that they would like to have an input. They do not want to be negative. They want to have an input and want to make it clear. There is no way we want to alienate a major group and put them in "a political spectrum" which they do not want.

2810 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 Mr. Orchard: No, I do not take my honourable friend's discussion to lead there at all. You are pointing out a recognition of an issue and a challenge that we need to get discussions and hopefully some resolution of. I mean, that is very appropriate. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell us how they are going to deal with the mentally ill patients in the acute situation in some of the rural hospitals and some of the northern areas?

How are we going to have a system that will not only meet the acute care needs which it has not been met in the past, not a fault of a specific government, but the way the system was put in place because of the shortage of health care professionals, because of the shortage of no continuity of care because there was no community backup system , how those things are coming along? How does the government view their own policy would change the major flaws in the system? Mr. Orchard: We discussed the issue briefly the other day when the member for St.

Johns was wanting to know if there had been some numbers around designation of beds in some of our acute care facilities, particularly in northern Manitoba. That is part of the discussion that our Regional Mental Health Councils are undertaking right now. In general terms, I think the way we see the opportunities unfolding is that in certain hospitals serving a region, there could well be a legitimate opportunity that could be met with the designation of several beds in a facility. The designation of the beds is one thing. It is the care that you are able to provide is the second area.

In that regard, we are approaching through, specifically, the human resources committee that we have working with the ministry. We have a numb er of areas where we are under taking discussion. One of them, for instance, deals with family practitioners, general practitioners, and an opportunity to access six months to a year. I will not tie myself down to the months, but basically an opportunity for a family practitioner, general practitioners, to have upgrading in terms of their ability in psychiatry, so you would have a generalist specialist concept.

As well, I see a role for the psychologist profession, and I also see a role for -and this is very futuristio-but for a baccalaureate-prepared RPN, because we are working with the association over the next period of time on curriculum development of the two-year RPN program and a baccalaureate four-year prepared program.

Now I am not narrowing the opportunities to that, but those are some of the immediate directions that are being envisioned so that you will have the comb ination of the oppor tu nit y for acute admissions, but that by itself does not solve the problem unless you have the ability to assist the individual while admitted. The three options are being discussed right now at human resources committee and other options may well be pursued from that committee and from ongoing discussions the department has. Mr.

Cheema: I just want to touch the issue of the mix of services in terms of the practitioners, the mental health workers, plus the RPN program to which the minister has already made a commitment. The issue-the minister also gave statistics, and that was, I think, a few weeks or months ago. It was said that 70 to 75 percent of mental health problems, through the Health Services Commission data, are seen by general practitioners.

There is a less amount of problems seen by the specialists, and they are seeing more acute and more complicated cases and setting up a system wher e the general practitioners in the rural communities and northern communities will have upgrading, six months or one year. I know the program is being evolved because I am practically part of that program already, personally. We have functioned out of Seven Oaks Hospital for six years successfully, four general practitioners working with the four specialists doing the same calls, the same responsibilities.

That way we have saved, and similarly I think the other hospitals are approaching the system. It is cost effective, but it is also a backup system. You have a certified specialist who is available in case of difficulty, but that has been functioning. That is in line with your own statistics that the general practitioners and family practitioners do play a role, a very important role. I would encourage the minister to set up a progr am.

I under stand so far that the rural communities are being considered, but we as a professional group have also made a representation that the people who are already within the system in the city of Winnipeg should be given opportunity. Some individuals we have, I would not say myself, but other people have done more work than us for even eight or 10 years, specifically working on a

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2811 basis that is very, very cost effective on a sessional basis or a fee for service and has not caused the problem of shortage of specialists in any way. What has been happe ning right now, the psychiatrists who work within the hospital system, their fee schedules are very low as compared to somebody where they have to perform more work and more responsibility as compared with outside the system. But then you have this backup or the general practitioner-specialist system that has been acting as a bridge for a long time.

To reinforce that, to make it more logical and academic, you have to have a special qualification. I think those things will be very helpful if the program can start it, and, as far as I can tell, it is supposed to, sometime in June or July ofthis year. Then it can be done on a long-term basis so that you do not interrupt the pattern of practices. People can come and spend time and get their training, and then they have to pass the exam and get accreditation.

It can be achieved even in the Winnipeg teaching hospitals, and also part of the training can take place in a place like Dauphin or Swan River area and also in the Thompson area. For some of the physicians, it may not be possible to leave their full practices and come and get the training done, so we will encourage the minister to look into that. It will take care of many of the shortage problems, and it has in fact. That is why you are not seeing, again I would say fi rst and th ir d, stories of sh ortage of psychiatrists, because somebody else has filled that gap very well on a cost-effe ctive basis.

We are not seeing major problems within the system as long as you have a back-up system. It cannot totally replace what is important, but at least one can substitute and one can complement, if that is the right word, and that has been functioning. Other jurisdictions are having a good look at the system because they are working for anesthesia, they are working for gynecology, and now it is working for psychiatry. So we will ask the minister to look into that in a serious way and make it possible.

I may have interest, not a monetary gain here, but interest that some individual I have worked with for five years, six years, we are doing calls that the other individuals are doing on a regular basis, and doing the same work, and it has been very, very effective. I was told the Victoria Hospital is making the same plea, same as the Grace Hospital, and Misericordia was trying to get in the same kind of complement to their own psychiatry level. I think that would be helpful, that experience has been proven very effective.

I must say that the department took a chance then, five years ago, but it worked. * (1 540) Mr. Orchard: I think that is accurate, and there is another avenue that certainly within the ministry we think is important to pursue and that is a liaisOn between psychologists and general practitioners.

It appears to me that without the necessity of the general practitioner doing an upgrade, there can be developed, on the basis of regional availability of staff, a working relationship outside the city of Winnip eg with psyc hologis ts and gener al practitioners who can work as a pretty effective team, so that is why I mentioned that relationship in my earlier answer as well as the upgrade and the baccalaureate program for RPNs. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell us what kind of model-l do not want to pre-empt the whole process-- they are having a look at in terms of providing counselling services where you do not need a ge neral practitioner, you do not need a psychiatrist. You simply need a mental health worker, and setting up a system in a given community to provide those kinds of services. Mr. Orchard: I do not think we can say anybody's model is particularly the one we are working towards achieving.

I guess you would have to say it is a made-in-Mani toba model, building on a community mental health worker now and, as the process matures, having a greater opportunity for liaison and working relationships with other trained disciplines, as we have discussed already in terms of the general practitioner, psychology and baccalaureate RPNs several years down the road when that program as we anticipate becomes a reality.

I guess we have not varied in our thinking from our original presentation that we made back in fall of '88 with the first discussion paper in terms of the multidisciplinary team approach, because I think one of the clear-and my honourable friend has alluded to the success of the thinking, this is not an accurate statement, this is a general statement! am making. There has been a tendency in the past for mental illnesses of all severity to access the system at the most professionally trained point, the psychiatrist.

That seems to have been a tendency in the past, and, clearly, successful mental health systems that we have seen have varying points of entry for individuals depending on the severity of

2812 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 30, 1992 their illness. We do not always need to have the advice of the most highly trained professional to serve an individual's needs. If fact, we probably waste professional expertise by having them undertake service provision that others could very well provide in certainly the opportunity for a more economic fashion, but certainly in a service delivery environment closer to the individual's home, hence the multidisciplinary team approach. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister, has he or his department reviewed the report from the Law Reform Commission about sterilization in terms of the mentally incompetent patients? Mr. Orchard: I am going to get an answer, but I have not received any briefing. My ADM thinks that Dr. Rodger may have taken a look at it, and he is going to check and see whether he provided us with any written advice. I did not receive any that I can remember, but I appreciate I get a chunk of correspondence through the office.

I am not alwa ys up to speed on varying recommendations, but I do not recall any coming in from the perspective of the ministry. We will check and see. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is a very controversial issue and very, very critically tough, and I would like the minister to at least have somebody review the whole thing and see, because when they asked for the review the then Attorney General was Mr. Gerry Mercier, and I think he asked for the review at that time.

It is a long, long process, for eight, 10 years these things were going on, and certainly a report came back and as far as I could tell the report was not very conclusive. They left it open. They said that politicians should be making the decision in the Legislative Building. So, I think the way it was started and they left it the same way, but they gave pros and cons and what should and what should not be done, but certainly those issues are going to come. Eventually a decision has to be made, but then I do not want to prejudge or myself even say something here and then be in hot water.

I would just want to know if the minister has reviewed the report. It is quite educational in terms of when you start the process, and then everyone has their own views, and once they read and know the truth of life and so many facts come to the reality and everybody backs off because it is very risky. They are asking somebody else to make the decision. That was my conclusion from the whole report, but certainly I would like to know the minister's view and if not today, maybe sometime later, once he has a chance to review it. My next question is in terms of the Mental Health Review Board.

Can the minister tell us what the waiting period is now in terms of if somebody is applying to review their case in front of the Mental Health Review Board? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, with the only exceptions being adjournments that are requ es ted, all of our reviews are be ing accomplis hed within the 21 days. The only exemption that I am informed happens is where there is a request for adjournment for reasons of, obviously they are pro bably not prepared or whatever reason, and those take longer. Those go beyond the 21 days, but could be scheduled.

Like, the scheduling part of it in getting the changes that we made, in terms of the roster system with the legislation, had allowed us to achieve that 21 -day target that we had set up. Mr. Cheema: Can the min ister tell us, have they received any major complaints in regard to The Mental Health Act, the new amendments? Mr. Orchard: No, I think that things are working fairly well. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that is an indicator that things are functioning.

We just want to know that what we did In this Legislative Building was a useful exercise for people, and if there are not many complaints then things are functioning. Mr. Orchard: Well, you know, my honourable friend brings up quite an interesting issue, because we got into a fair little bit of controversy at the committee time. I guess, had my honourable friend not been balanced in his view we might have pushed through some amendments that we were not ready to bring through.

Experience says that today it indicates that the legis lation as amended has worked reasonably well, and I am going to pre-empt my colleague the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae), but as long as he does not get tangled up in Calgary tomorrow, if he gets the opportunity on the Order Paper, he will be introducing the health care directives legislation. • (1 550)

April 30, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 281 3 An Honourable Member: It is already done. Mr. Orchard: I tell my honourable friend, our analysis is that the legislation he Is bringing in is very, very close to my honourable friend's proposal with the exception that you might recall the issue in terms of The Mental Health Act of the next of kin. We have added an amendment that we believe meets with the concerns that were expressed last year at committee stage, so that the potential for the issue arising that was identified last year should be mitigated against with Mr. McCrae's legislation. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, one very important question and very practical one is: Can the minister tell us through his staff is each and every patient when they are admitted to a psych unit being read their rights? Do we have a person in each and every hospital from the hospital's point of view that it may be their responsibility? I think we should make sure that patients are given a full reading about their rights and their responsibilities under The Mental Health Act, because some patients have complained and this is a practical problem. I think it should be looked at. Mr.

Orchard: I cannot answer that today, but we will check and endeavour to provide that answer. Mr. Cheema: I am not aware whether that is a part of each and every hospital's policy. They may do that, but whether that is to some extent if the patient is asking, but the policy should be that to each and every patient who is admitted to the psych unit should know what their rights are in terms of The Mental Health Act.

It may have some problem in the beginning, but it will avoid a lot of problems for the staff and for the patients and for the advocacy groups, so they understand what is and what is not possible, and so they can have access to services, because after five o'clock they do not have access to any services and that is a major problem. Mr. Orchard: Chair recommendation. Mr. Cheema: I think my next question is not on men tal health, but I just wanted to take the opportunity to ask about the issue of the LPNs report yesterday that the memb er for St. Johns {Wasylycia-Leis) did ask questions.

We had the privilege of only two questions, so I could not get my question into the Question Period. I just wanted to know how this report fits into the minister's own philosophy or the government's policy in terms of the future of LPNs in Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: I met with the president and the executive director of the association yesterday afternoon. Their report is wanting a response from government by May 1. I indicated that I simply was unable to accede to that.

From some of the reasons behind our-t he reason why I have not been able to get a capital budget that I am comfortable with presenting at the Estimates time, and I am going to try to-wall, I told them we would respond to their report as quickly as we could get appropriate staff and have our appropriate discussions. At the same time, there is a report that has come out of Education and Training which has some suggestions and some observations that we want to have an understanding of in terms of balancing a response to the LPN association report. Mr.

Cheema: So the minister is saying that it will take a few more weeks to have a formal response to the association, and if the minister would not mind sending a copy of that response to us also so that we would have some answer to our questions. Mr. Orchard: Yes, I want to try to give them some kind of direction and response. As well, you know the issue came up about the moratorium at Red River Community College, et cetera, and again I reflect back to the employers' survey that we are undertaking so that hope fully we have that guidance.

Right now I do not know whether we are on target, but we had hoped that we would have our replies all back in by the 31 stof May so that we could by the end of June hopefully compile and have some sense around the employers' survey which would certainly help us in developing a plan of action around the LPN nursing education issue. There is no question the uncertainty is causing a lot of dismay and consternation and unease amongst the membership. Mr.

Cheema: I think one issue the minister can at least communicate to the hospitals is that they are trying to streamline their budgets, but when they are doing that, some of the positions which were occupied by the LPNs are now being taken by the health care aide workers and that is an major concern. It may look good for the short term from a financial point of view-1 would not say very good but look comparatively good-but in the long run are those things going to be practical for the patients and their well-being?

2814 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1992 I think those things have to be clarified, and there has to be direction from the minister's office making sure that the patient care should not suffer at the expense of making those changes at a rate, or when we do not know the outcome of so many health care reforms which are going to take place. I will give an example. It is a good idea to put all the patients who are panelled for a personal care home on one floor or put the patients for long-term care on one floor, and that will save a lot of staff.

But, to replace every LPN with a health care aide worker, or significant health care aide worker who are replacing LPNs or they may seem to be replacing LPNs in the future, I think that is a realistic fear. (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) The issue here is the LPNs have asked me and they said that we do more than shake hands with the patient or talk to them. They said that we are performing duties which are very valuable and they are doing it in the North and other places where you do not have an RN and you do not have a doctor so they are doing all this work.

So basically it is a question of demand and supply, but there has to be som e respect to their professional capabilities because if we do not use those resources, do not use their skills, they are going to go away. That is a serious concern. I understand within the hospital they have to make a decision, but the government can send a strong message that just to save a few dollars in certain circumstances may not be good in the future, and if, for example, something goes wrong, then I think we will have a really terrible problem in terms of explaining why such action was not taken.

As long as there is approach with more caution in terms of approach with a more realistic view and approach to make sure patients best interests are kept in mind, I think that kind of letter from the minister's office to the institutions will be very help ful, will be reassuring to the LPNs that government is not after their job, they simply want to reorganize the system, and they have a role to play.

I think that is what the LPNs are saying, and they understand the system is going to change and everybody else does understand, but I just wanted to make sure that the minister's office has been aware of some of the things which are happening and in terms of not only dealing with saving some of the tax dollars, but also making sure that you do not end up in a tragedy. • (1 600) For example, a health care worker who has no qualification in terms of dealing with the patient care, it could be very dangerous if there are problems. Mr. Or chard : We ll, Mr.

Acting Dep uty Chairperson, I accept my honourable friend's caution but, you know, hopefully any decisions made in the staffing patterns by management will have been carefully thought through, so that those sorts of circumstances are not likely to emanate from those decisions. Clearly the LPN today, if I could kind of reflect a general impression, I think they are really struggling as to whether they have got any friends anywhere. I mean, all of us have had our discussions with the LPNs. They are concerned about the support they have received from, for instance, the union. They are very concerned about that.

Right or wrong, they have relayed to me that they do not believe they have been supported adequately by the union. They make the case that in the workplace, the registered nurses in the supervisory position have often made decisions that they believe compromises their profession. I guess, to put it bluntly, there is an awful lot of turf war dynamics that is causing consternation amongst the LPNs. I think it is fair to say they are questioning whether government supports them, I support them as a professional care giver.

Despite efforts to try and work through a numb er of problems that are certainly complex, there is no one single solution to some of the challenges that they face. You know, there is even the impression, I think it is fair to say, that they do not trust government. They do not trust the registered nurse, they do not trust the union. They are really looking for someone who is going to provide some answers. In reality the association, I think, the leadership will take th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-56
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 56.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	80cd1121bc6894020d7732195fec904085d28b48

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