.- VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, MARCH 25, 1983 NO. 14

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 634 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russeli) : Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker. Order ·, please! SD - 1 MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. I believe Your Honour called Statements by Ministers. MR. SPEAKER: I am aware of what this is about. The hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) carne to me earlier and asked the question if in his capacity of Parliamentary Secretary he could make a statement on behalf of the minister.

We have been doing ·a little bit of research into it as our Standing Orders are silent on it. And I have just been advised that it has been ruled out of practice in Ottawa. So I am going to have to rule not to recognize the member for Stephenville in that capacity. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. On a point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Stephenville brought me his statement earlier and like yourself I went to Beauchesne and to our own Standing Orders and they are silent on the matter. The hon. gentleman is not yet a minister.

I know he is trying hard to get I - into the Cabinet but until he becomes a minister, Mr. Speaker, I do not think he is entitled to make Ministerial Statements. But the statement is- purely a district statement. MR. STAGG: It is about a.n international trade zone. 1427

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 634 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: At so me point during the morning - maybe not under this heading we would certainly grant leave, I believe we would, for the hon. gentleman to make a statement,but certainly not under Ministerial Statements, Mr. Speaker, because we would be creating a precedent, And we would have to lay down some ground rules. I mean, maybe at some point in time we might have to change the rules to allow Parliamentary Assistants to make statements and if they did then we would want to have the right to question Parliamentary Assistants and so forth . MR. MARSHALL: MR.

NEARY: We do not need your lecture. Well 1 the hon. gentleman gave us a lecture yesterday an.d their friend : and comrade at CBC played that up. You know, their great supporter in the CBC played it up that he gave us a lecture, their pal and friend and supporter. So I do not see why I cannot gi~e a lecture too, Mr. Speaker, if I want to. And so, Mr. Speaker ·; ±£ we can find a way to acconunoclate th.e hon. gentleman, we would not have any objections to .it on this side o:f the House. We do not want to be small abou .t this. It is strictly a district matter. 1428

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 635 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman could have made the statement outside the House, he could have called a press conference in Stephenville or anywhere. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Qrder, please: The Chair · is still wcm<:"_erincr basically what is the point of order by the hop. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). MR. NEARY: Well,the point of order is - MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it is not for the Leader of the Opposition to make a Ministerial Statement yet. It was many years ago, it will never be again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. MARSHALL: But I have a statement to make, Mr. Speaker, of a matter of great provincial importance that I make on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsorl,who is unfortunate~y out of the Legislature this morning. And I am su~e it will be of great interest to the member for Stephenville (.Mr. Stagg) as well, of great interest. I am pleased to announce today the establishment of an International Trade Zone at the Harmon Complex in Stephenville. SOME HON. MEMBE'RS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: Thi.s concept has been proven world- wi.de as the major attraction for businesses and will ultimately provide much-needed employment opportunities for this area of the:1 ·Province. It comes directly as aresult of strong initiatives on the part of the Harmon Corporation over the 1429

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 635 NM ~ 2 MR. MARSHALL: past three years. Extens~ve research on the part of the Corporation toward developing a concept which can operate within the framework of Canada's existing customs laws, and the supportive roles played by bot~ the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor), for Newfoundland, responsible for Harmon Corporation; and the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Bussieres) for Canada, responsible for customs, have all played a

part in bringing this initiative to fruition. And note, Mr. Speaker, the joint credit that has been given to both the Minister of Development here, and the Minister of Revenue for Canada. An International Trade Zone is an exclosed area into which foreign goods can enter free from normal customs formalities, and where domestic goods can be placed and be considered eligible for such purposes as tax refunds and drawback payments. Such a zone offers major advantages to both importers and exporters.

Importers can hold merchandise in excess of a host country's import quotas within the zone or can fabricate such merchandise into other products not subject to quotas. Customs duties can also be deferred while goods are held within an International Trade Zone. This allows a reduction in working capital requirements . Companies in the business of re -exporting can bring foreign components into sue~ a zone, manufacture them into finished products and re-export them without paying duty on the imported components. If such manufacturing activity takes place outside the zone, there is still an advantage to be gained.

The finished goods can be placed within the International Trade Zone upon 1430

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 635 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: upon completion and immediately be considered as exported for purposes of export draw- backs or reimbursement of duty paid. Canadian mnaufacturers can obtain drawbacks of 100 pe .r cent. Apart from having positive effects on the profitability of businesses established withi.n them, international trade zones also offer broader economic and social benefits to the regions in which. they are located. When firllis are induced to 1431

March 25, 1983 Tape 636 PK - 1 MR . MA RSHALL: establish in a particular region because of the presence of an international trade zone, they bring with them new employment opportunities,from the foundation of a broader tax base for the region and have a positive multiplier effect on the region's economy. Very often international trade zones have been established in economically depressed areas and have proven to be the stimulus which was necessary to revitalize commerical activity there.

To be a potential site for an international trade zone an area should: firstly, be strategically located on a major trade route ; secondly, have abundant labour at competitive rates; and thirdly, have - . adequate storage and handling facilities. If these conditions are met, the presence of an international trade zone in an area could do much towards enticing a company to locate there instead of some other alternative location in the general region. The Stephenville area has all these conditions at its advantage and the Harmon Corporation plans an aggressive campaign promoting its international trade zone status.

A brochure for the area has been produced and follow-up promotional efforts will in~lude seminars, personal visits, and trade shows, where development potential is indicated. The International Trade Zone at Stephenville will be a first in Newfoundland and in Canada as a whole. Government supports whole-heartedly this commendable effort on the part of the Harmon Corporation. Mr.

Speaker, I do not see how anyone can style this as being , it certainly is a district statement of great concern to the people of Stephenville, but is also one that everybody in the Province will welcome and whole-heartedly welcome because it gives a lot of impetus and it shows the initiative taken by the 1432

March 25, 1983 MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Tape 636 PK - 2 government in this area. Hear, hear! And particularly I want to commend the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) for his efforts to this end - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: ·- and I would suggest to all of our good friends in the press, on both sides of the House, that when they hold interviews with respect to this,I have just given this as the agent of the member for Stephenville and I would invite them to ask questions of the member for Stephenville who has been the initiator and the driving force of this very positive provincial policy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the I would further suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that if the media are going to follow the lecture and the advice just given them by the han. gentleman that they also interview Mr. Brian Tobin, MP who is the prime mover behind this project. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, we welcome the international trade ZQne area to be established in Stephenville. We are rather surprised, pleasantly surprised to hear in the statement and to hear the President of the Council, (Mr. Marshall), the Government House Leader, give joint credit for this project. That is a new, Mr. Speaker, in this han. House, 1433

March 25, 1983 Tape 637 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: because usually they give the federal government and the federal MPs credit .for nothing. As han. members know, this project could not have been accomplished without the co-operation of the Government of Canada and unless it was pushed by Mr. Brian Tobin, MP, who apparently is looking after his riding very well, doing a magnificent job - I would say that Mr. Tobin played a major role in seeing to it that Stephenville became an international trade zone. MR. TULK: He worked very closely with the member for Port au Port . MR.

NEARY: Yes, he worked very closely with my colleague, the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) on this project, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: On whole behalf you are speaking. MR. NEARY: And I am the agent for the member for Port au Port, Mr. Speaker, in this case. So we welcome it and we are glad that the administration gave a bit of credit to Ottawa. What about Gander and Goose Bay now, Mr. Speaker? Because reading the Ministerial Statement here, it seems to me that Gander and Goose Bay meet all the criteria, meet all the qualifications. They are strategically located on a major trade route.

They have abundant labour at competitive rates. They have adequate storage and handling facilities. They meet all the terms and conditions and the criteria that brought about this develop ­ ment, this project for Stephenville. Now, what is the administration going to do to try to establish similar international tradezones in Gander and Goose Bay? Are we just going to let it go at Stephenville? 1434

March 25, 1983 MR . ANDREWS : initiative. MR. NEARY: Tape 637 EC - 2 You just said it was a fede ,ral Mr. Speaker, I commend the Harmon Corporation for taking the initiative, but it could not have been accomplished - MR. ANDREWS : Unle ss the feds had input . MR. NEARY: • That is right, or without Mr. Tobin's help and that of my ·colleague, the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). So I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that we are not just going to let the matter die here, that there will now be initiatives taken locally and by the administration to see to it that the same consider­ ation will be given to Gander and Goose Bay. ,I 1435

March 24, 1983 MR. W. HOUSE: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. HOUSE: Tape No. 638 ,MJ - 1. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, first I want to apologize to the Opposition because I was not ab~e to distribute this earlier; it was hurriedly put together. Mr.

Speaker, I fee~ I mupt respond to certain statements that have been made recently from the Newfoundland Medical Association concerning expected reduction in hospitaL care as a result of the March 17 Budget, There are a number of points I would like to make to correct some misunderstandings in the public's mind wi,tn ;respect 'to the statement and what we are doing in our 1983 - 84 Budget, In this fiscal year, the coming fiscal year, government will be providing the $306 million to meet the operational costs of the board operated hospitals, Incidently there is another $20 million or $20-odd million going into other hospitals besides that, This is an increase of 12 per cent abov.e last year's budgeted figures.

That is about $34 million over and they are talking about a $34 million decrease. That is a plus $34 million, ,M;r. Speaker, going from $272 million to $306 million. Now, the ,Medical Association's representative last night, Dr. Guy, left the impression that the level of funding will mean the hosptials will have to reduce their expenses by 15 to 20 per cent • . , This is simply not so; the shortfall in funding is, at most, 7 to 8 per cent of what hospitals initially requested froi!I government.

Since all hospitals will not receive tneir budgets until next week, the adjustments that w:Ul nave to be -made to meet these restraints will not be known until then. Incidently if anybody sa•,, the Corner Brook announcement last night where they have their budget completed, it shows that there is not going to be any massive cuts. They are going to be able to handle the situation very well and all other 1436

March 25 , 1983 Tape No . 638 MJ - 2 MR. W. HOOSE: hospitals will be tre~ted the same way as Corner Brook. I have established a Mbn~toring Committ~e to monitor closely the impact of the budget on services. I have invited the NMA and the Newfoundland Hospital Association to participate. "The Monitoring Committee will receive submissions from hospitals ;~:egarding specific measures that_have to be taken to meet budget restraints and assess objectively the impact of these measures on the hospitals. The Committee will be providing advice to the department and to myself.

Now, with respect to the comments of the Medical Association regarding specialist physicians, I would want to make the following comments: We have now in this Province more specialists than any other time in our history, more and better specia~ists. These specialists 1437

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 639 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: are very highly trained and are considered to be top in their field in Canada and in North America. The department is funding busaries for young Newfoundlanders to train in medical specialities which are in short supply in this Province. To date we have funded twenty such Newfoundlanders - some of them are backed, some of them are in training -and they have committed themselves to work in this Province.

Specialists come to this Province they have been coming for years and l.eaving for many reasons - some of them financial some personal and some because they are unable to do the kind of work they want to do in this Province. I might point out, Mr. Speaker, that we have had people who went away last year. They did not go because they were not getting enough money, they went for other reasons.

And I might point out with Ontario this year giving a 7.8 per cent increase in their hospitals' budget I do not know where the specialists are going to find room to work in these systems if they cannot work in a system where we are giving a 12 per cent increase. The monitoring committee which is being es .tablished will be asked to monitor the situation with respect to specialists 'very closely and report to me if there is clear evidence that they are leaving the Province. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, it should not be forgotten tha .t this year, and I mentioned the amount we are spending on hospitals, this year ~ government is spending in excess of $400 million for hospital and medical services in the Province. So in no way is the health care of the population a second class priority with. us and in no way will the health . care 1438

Mareh 25, 19 83 MR. HOUSE: jeopardized. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SP~KER (Russell) : of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: all very sincerely - MR. ANDREWS: MR . ROBERTS: Tape No . 639 SD - 2 of the popu l ation be seriously Hear, hear. The hon. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, let me first of Four hundred what? ·I would say to my friend from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) with his loud sotto voce comments that 400 million has eight zeros after it and a four in front of it and he can get that on this five fingers on one hand and four on the other.

If he has trouble writing it down I will write it down for him. want to thank the minister - MR . ROUSE: MR . ROBERTS: Let me say, Mr. speaker, I $400 milli on . Yes, that is 4-o-a-o-o-o-o-o-o. That takes five fingers on one hand and four·on the other in case the Minister of Health (Mr. Housel has trouble with it. 1439

March 25, 1983 Tape 640 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Now, let me carry on, Mr. Speaker, and say that I want to thank the minister - I have been trying for two minutes now to thank the minister for something and all I get is catcalls from the Yoohaws and Hooyaws on the other side. I want to thank the minister because he did have the courtesy to give us a copy of this statement as soon as it came to hand for him and I do appreciate that and I want to acknowledge it publicly in the House.

Let me say as well that we on this side welcome the establishment of the monitoring committee or any mechanisms that will~allow all of those with knowledge and concern as to this Province's health care system to have involvement and input into the decisions. Of course, it is a little like locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen to establish a committee now because, of course, the Minister of 'Finance (Dr. Collins) has lowered his axe and has lopped off -we do not know what he has lopped off, We will find out over the next few months in a series of announcements, I fear.

Having said that, let me go on now to say that I regret that the minister in his Ministerial Statement has not done anything to make clear the situation with regar~ to Botwood, Buchans and Placentia, the trio of hospitals ~hat are now comin~ on the top of the hit list. Perhaps the memner for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) will speak on that somewhat. I know he is intimately concerned and deeply concerned, as are a great number of other people throughout the Province and I would expect my friend from Windsor -Buchans (Mr. McLennan) to be heard from at some point publicly 1440

March 25, 1983 Tape 640 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: on this issue as well. Now, let me go on, Mr. Speaker, and say that I am not allowed to debate the Ministerial Statement in responding to it, so I will not, but I hope the minister will be here for the Interim Supply debate this morning. It might be his turn in the barrel today, and we will have an opportunity to discuss some of the issues which are emerging from _the government's approach to health care services.

And I hope he will be here because, of course, we want him to be able to respond and we will listen to what he has to say, just as I know he will listen to what -we have to say on this. I appreciate the civilized way in which the minister carries on this dialogue. I only wish it were infectious and that some of his coll .eagues could be infected with the virus. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me conclude by saying that - and I will deal with the numbers when we come to the debate, when I have a little more time an~ the rules permit me to debate.

Let me conclude by saying this, because this is the basic fact on which health care discussions are proceeding in this Province today and must proceed: 1441

•: March 25, 1983 Tape No. 641 NM- l MR. ROBERTS: The government have provided more money, granted, but they have not provided the hospitals in this Province with enough money to enable them to continue to carry on operations at the level of service that the hospitals had attained,say,on 1 January 1983, or 30 March 19S3. There are qoi~g to be cutbacks. It is not the minister's written statement, but he spoke of Dr. Watts' appearance on the television last night. I heard Dr. ~!atts and I listened with great interest to what he had to say. Dr.

Watts made it quite clear that there are going to be reductions in the services offered by Western Memorial. He then went on to add that there J..s going to be no reduction in the quality of care, and that is exactly what I wo~ld expect from Dr.Watts because he is a fine administrator and a fine physician, but the fact remains that the volume of services is going to be cut back substantially at Western Memorial as at every other hospital throughout this Province. The services that will be offered will continue to be of the highest quality, and so they should be. The problem is that many people, Mr.

Speaker, who have been getting care because they need it, are not going to be able to get as much care even though if they get it - the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge} shakes her head, she has got her own problems. Her record speaks for itself. I will deal with her when several hundred of her fellow Newfoundlanders come out and say what they think of her. But I am talking now about something important, not the Minister of Education. I am talking about the health care problems.

The fact remains that while the quality may not be reduced, and I do not think it would be, the doctors of this Province will not be party - 1442

March 25, 19.83 Tape No. 641 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell} : Order, please! Order, please! The time for responding to that statement has expired. MR. ROBERTS: I will carry on. We have Interim Supply all day and all week. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), I think she is also in the barrel today.

When answering questions from the Opposition, and from the students over at Memorial and the College of Trades and Technology and the vocational schools{ the minister keeps repeating like a broken record that the changes in the student aid programme will not affect the needy. I wonder if the minister could give us her definition of needy. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr! Speaker, I am greatful for the opportunity of repeating what I had said yesterday and I ·• previously about the planned changes in the Newfoundland and Labrador Student aid plan.

The crucial point is that the changes will not diminish the amount of money available to students for post-secondary education. The same amount of money will be available. And, Mr. Speaker, for students having the most need, students whose parents are unable to make a contribution to the cost of their higher education, or where parents are unable to make much of a contribution, students who themselves cannot contribute anything or much to the cost of their higher education because they .h:ave been unable to get a job in the Summer or ~n the period prior to their studies, students in thatmost needy category 1443

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 642 MJ - 1 MS. L. VERGE: will not be affected by the changes, Formerly, itudents in that category had to borrow $575 a semester to qual~fy for free provincial money, for a provincial grant or a provincial allowance of $1,000 a semester 1 and then could go on to borrow another $325 making 'a total of $1,900 aid a semester. Those are figures for single students. And, l<'..r .

Speaker, of all the students in this Province wh,o have been receiving student aid, one-third are in that most needy category, one-third have been borrowing the maximum and receiving the maximum in free provincial grants, provincal allowances, money that does not have to be repaid. ~fter the changes, students in that category, approximately one- third of our students receiving aid, will not be affected. They will have to borrow the full $900 off the top before going on to qualify for the provincial grant of $1,000 a semester,making the same total of $1,900 and the same provincial grant of $1,000. I repeat, Mr.

Speaker, the most needy students, students whose families cannot a·fford to make any contribution or much of a contribution to the cost of their higher education, 'students who themselves have not been able to get a job and who cannot contribute to that cost, those students will hot be affected by the change. Those students will continue to be able to get up < to a full $1,000 a semester if they are single, $1 ,250 a semester if they are married 1 to assist with. the cost of their higher education. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, MR.

SPEAKER. (Russell) : A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . NEARY: As my hon. colleague just said, Mr. Speaker, it is like listening to a voice from the grave, The hon. the minister w~s rather vague and general in the answer. I wonder if the hon . 1444

March 24, 1983 Tape No . 642 MJ - 2 MR . S . NEARY: minister co.uld spell out in a little more detail the phrase that she just used, •most need ' ? What is the criteria? people in the family? Is it income? Is it the number of What is the formula? What formula does the minister use to establish need? Do you have to get a letter from the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey)? What is the criteria that is used to establish need? MS. IJ . VERGE : Mr. Speaker . 1445

March 25, 1983 Tape 643 PK ~ 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the criteria 1 which 1 incidentally 1 even after the changes will be better than those in some of our fellow provinces, provinces which are richer than ours, basically point to the students• financial circumstances, if a student is a dependent of his or her parents,the parents' financial circumstances. There are guidelines, regulations which indicate how that financial position is to be reported.

And,as I say, one-third of our students receiving aid get the maximum, borrow the maximum from the Canada Student Loan plan, then receive the maximum in provincial government grants or allowances or bursaries, free money. MR. NEARY: Who determines this need? l-IS. VERGE: Need is determined, Mr. Speaker, objectively according to regulations that are set down and that are administered by the Department of Education through our Student Aid Division 1 which is located at the Thompson Student Centre at Memorial University. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: I have a question to the Deputy Premier, In view of the high unemployrnen~ . among our young people in our Province today 1 :what plans or programmes is this administration implementing over and above the present programmes to ensure employment among our youth? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman weak; Is there something wrong with him? Is he ill? He seems to be in a trance? Is he thinking about Mobil? Has he got Mobil Oil on his brain or what? 1446

Marc·h 2 5 , 19 8 3 Tape 643 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I am just suffering from the normal 1 human,understandable lethargy that anyone who sits in this Assembly and listens to the questions posed by the Opposition daily would suffer from. I have to confess that I was not, Mr. Speaker, listening with great attention to the hon. member, and if the han. member would like to repeat his question I will certainly address it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, I will repeat the question for the Deputy Premier'because it is a serious matter, Over 60 per cent of our young people are unemployed. In view of the high unemployment among theyoung people in our Province,what plan or plans is this administration implementing over and above the present programmes to ensure employment among our youth? MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: First of all,there is no such thing in this administration as a Deputy Premier. That is probably why I did not hear the non. gentleman if that was the title he used first. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, as to what plans, the han. gentleman opens up a very good subject. B'ecause I hear in this House the han. gentleman and his colleagues talk to the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) with respect to budgetary requirements, and it is all tied together, Hr. 1447

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 644 MR. MARSHALL: Speaker, as far as questions with respect to the budget and the question that the hon . gentleman asked. SD - 1 We get our revenues from two sources, Mr. Speaker. We get them either fr ·orn taxation of the people of this Province or we get them from our resources. We already know that our people have been taxed to the limit and beyond the limit and if anything they should carne down rather than go up. With re~pect to coping with the budget, the only alternative we have short of getting income from our resources is to cut our expenditures.

Now to get income from our resources is very much related to the han. gentleman's question ,because in getting income from our resources we would be developing our resources and we would enable our young people in this Province to be able to look forward to a much brighter future within their own native Province than presently is held out to them under the present system with which we are wrestling with total federal control of our ofshore resources with the Province of Quebec creaming $600 million or $700 million a year £rom the Western boundaries of the Province, with the threat to the control of our fisheries and the attempt to transfer fishery jurisdiction from Newfoundland to Ottawa,and the be~efit of the North Atlantic fishery particularly into Nova Scotia.

So I can say to the hon. gentleman that we have plans and they a.re all interrelated into the whole spectrum of our government programmes :i,n our budgets and what have you. And I would invite the hon. gentleman , if h.e wishes to see the younger people of this Province look forward to a better future with respect to jobs , that th .e first step that the hon. gentleman there opposite could do would be to support this government in its forward policies with respect to resource development. 1448

March 25, .198 3 Tape No. 6.44 $0 - 2 MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER lRussell)_: The han. member for E.a,5rle River.

MR. liiSCOCK: Mr. s.peaker, in view of the statement that was given by the acting Pre~ier that it is all tied up with. th.e programmes· outlined in the budge.t 1 I would like to as'k the acting Prem.ter wha,t programmes is this administration going to be implementing for· s~er employment among our youth to make sure that if. th_ey go pack to university they do not have. to bo;J;>row th.e $9:.0.0.~ Wha,t programmes are they implementing this S'\li!Uller to have Summer employment for students throughout the Province? MR. SPEAKER: Th_e hon. President of: th_e. Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr, Spea,ke.I.', I' can only repeat again we do not look in th_e. short term. We a·re do:i;n,g everything we possibly can with respect to short tez:m programmes, with respect to Summer employment for our younger people, but we tend to ha.ve a. per9I?ectiye that. extends a little bit further into tl'l.e· future tha,n the. hQn. memb.er does.

And what we are mainly concerned W-ith. in this Province is to be able. to have a, re.gime in this Province where we can have adequate resource develapl'(lent,. where our young people in this Province can l,ook :f;orwa,rd, to jobs· from th.eir resources rather than an ete11nity of equalization and welfare payments to which. they will b.e inextricably committed if the p;t;esent policies· of t.h..e federal government are allowed to pertain to. th.is J;>rovi:nce and the han. gentlemen there opposite. get their way in their support of these policies. 1449

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 645 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell} : The han. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

With regard to the economy and the potential of Hibernia,we find out now that there are very few Newfoundland companies around as a result of the stale- mate 1 and the majority of them have gone · bankrupt • Now we are saying with regard to the student population we are croing to make sure that they are not given the opportunity to get trained for this in view of the fact that we need short-term employment,so they can go back to school. ··--·-· .. ·- Am I ~o understand that there is not going to be ~ --- -- . - -- .--- any Young Canada Works by way of this provincial government, or anything over and above the normal hiring practice from each of the provinces, that we are not going to have any special programmes geared towards the class of '83 , etc .?

MR . SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The han. gentleman, you know, in the guise of asking questions can make statements al l he wants . I have answered the hen . gentleman's question. The answer is it is not for this government to give out Canada Works as such, it is the federal government that creates the Canada Works programmes and - what have you.

This government , I can tell the hon. member, is wrestling daily having to nickle and dime foster children's clothing, having to do its best with respect to health and educational services, and there is .nobody in this Province who \'Tishes it could do more for these services than this government. But the only way that this government is every going to be able to do this is if we can get the revenues from our resources. We cannot get any more from the people, that ~s what I try to tell the 1450

March 25, 19 _83 Tape No. 645 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: hon. gentleman. And if the hon. gentleman would just be one half a Newfoundlander, what he would do is support this government and not his cronies in the Federal Liberal Government up in Ottawa, and then the hon. gentleman would see employment and a promising future for the young people of this Province such as is beyond his limited comprehension. MR. SPEAKER (Russell} : The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want once again to come back to the Minis ~ter of Education (Ms.

Verge} , I want to come back to the minis·ter 's twisted and convoluted logic re the student aid programme. And I realize the minister is trying to defend the indefensible, and even with her legal training that oecomes very, very difficult. Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister has said that the changes in the student aid programme, the increase in the loan ceiling, will not affect the needy. Let us make the question a little bigger; will it affect :any student? Will it affect anybody? MR. SPEAKER: MS ·.· VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, I am glad to have yet another opportunity to go over the same ground and explain the changes in our province's student aid plan that were announced in the Budget Speech. The explanation has been given I suppose ten times this morning and yesterday 1 and I see that some students have just entered the galleries and it is good for me to have the opportunity .to say it for the eleventh time for the benefit of the members opposite 1but also . 14 51

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 646 MJ - 1 MS. L. VERGE: to say it for the benefit of the students in the gallery. Incidently, I will be very glad to meet with representatives of the student bodies of the colleges and the university. Monday evening I met.with representatives of the executive of the Council of the Students Union of Memorial University. I chatted with those student representatives for about an hour and told them that I am available to the CSU executive. MR. ANDREWS: MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: I do not believe in mob rule.

What did you say, mob rule? That is what it is, is it, mob rule? Order, please! Order, please! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. The han. the President of the Council . The han. the member for Terra Nova asked a question of the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). I assume he is interested in the answer, but the han. members for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) and the han. the Leader of the Opposition . (Mr. Neary) are interjecting, Mr. Speaker. MR. S. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, I think it is shameful and beneath contempt that the Minister of Education should cast such aspersions on the students as to refer to their peaceful demonstration as mob rule. That is shameful and the minister should apologize. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MS -. VERGE: The han. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, l have never at any time used the expression, 'mob rule'. MR. NEARY: No, it was your colleague behind you there. MS. VERGE: The Leader of the Opposition ~s quite out of order in attributing those remarks to ;me, 'l'hat 1452

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 646 MJ - 2 MS. L. VERGE: was quite a false and inaccurate statement which should be withdrawn, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask for the protection of the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The Chair had recognized the. hon. the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) in responding to a question to the hon. the member for Terra Nova and I certainly was not aware of any comment that she made to the effect of any demonstration by students was 'mob rule'. MR. S. NEARY: No. It was the minister behind here there, Mr. Speaker. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, what I was talking about when I was so rudely interrupted was a very positive and constructive meeting I had with representatives of the executive of the CSU of Memorial University,oh Monday evening I met with those students, Mr. Speaker, for about an hour and I assured them that I and possibly other members of government will be available to them for follow-up discussions. I e?plained that government has to stick to the bottom line estimate of spending on student aid next year which will still allow a student aid plan on a par with the majority of provinces of Canada and a 1453

March 25, 1983 Tape 647 EC - 1 MS VERGE: little more generous than those in some of our other provinces. I told them that I would be quite willing to listen to their recommendations about the proposed changes in the eligibility criteri~ and that if they are able to point out to me that modifications should be made in the interest of the whole student body at the universit~ and the students indeed at the other institutions in the Province, that government will be quite willing to consider their recommendations and to look at making modifications in the projected changes to the eligibility criteria. Now, Mr.

Speaker, to answer the specific question of the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), the total effect of the proposed changes in our student aid plan, both the increase in the borrowing requirements for eligibility for provincial grant money, the change in the loan/grant split,and also the proposed changes in the eligibility criteria will not in any way, shape or form diminish the number of dollars available to students.

And in the case of the approximately one-third of our Province's students now receiving student aid, who receive the maximum, who draw the maximum loans from the Canada Student Loan plan and who receive the maximum provincial government grant, there will be no change.

To illustrate that, a single student studying for one semester who qualifies for the maximum aid, a student in that situation who demonstrates the most need because of his or her own personal circum­ stances, and if that student is dependent on his or her parents, the family's circumstances, that student may now borrow $575 from the Canada Student Loan grant, then receive a $1,000 Frovincial government grant, a thousand dollars that does not have to be repaid, and then go on, 1454

March 25, 1983 Tape 647 EC - 2 MS VERGE: as a third step, to borrow another $325 from the Canada Student Loan grant for a total aid of $1,900, of which $900 is a loan that has to be repaid and $1,000 is a grant that does not have to be repaid . After the change, that same student will have to borrow the full $900 off the top and then go on to qualify for and receive the same $1,000 - MR. NEARY : You are brutalizing the students. MS VERGE: - grant from the provincial government for the same total of $1,900 in aid; no change for the most needy students.

And I repeat that about one-third of our Province's students getting aid are in that category. MR. NEARY : Okay, wind down now, cupie doll. MS VERGE: No\'7, Mr. Speaker, for students with less need than that, they .will continue to receive the same number of dollars except that they will have to borrow more from the Canada Student Loan programme and they will receive less in the way of provincial government grants of free money. MR . NEARY: Will you go out front and say that? MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, until now Newfoundland and Labrador has had by far the best plan in the country in that the aid received by our students has had the lowest percentage of loan form and the highest percentage of grant form. MR. NEARY : The highest taxes and the highest Unemployment. MS VERGE: And furthermore, 1455

March 25, 1983 Tape 648 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: the average grant paid to our students has been way higher than the average grant received by students inanyother province. MR. NEARY: We have the highest taxes and the highest unemployment in Canada. MS. VERGE: And these are according to statistics gathered by the Federal/Provincial Implementation Task Force on Student Aid the year before last. And those statistics show that in that year the average grant for Newfoundland - MR. NEARY: order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr .• Speaker, on a point of Order, please! The han.

Leader of the Mr. Speaker, Cupie Doll should have unwound a long time ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS : . Oh, oh! MR; NEARY: She is merely repeating herself. It is awfully tedious, Mr. Speaker, the repetition. And the rules of this House say that answers have to be brief. Could you direct the minister to give brief answers, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAXER: Order, please! It is true that questions and answers should be brief. It is also true that when one hon. member . is referring to another han. member that he or she should be referred to by their official capacity. The han. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE~ Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I acknowledge that my answers have been r~petitious, but I have been getting the same questions over and over again. SOME HON. MEMBERS : 1456 Hear, hear!

March 25, 1983 Tape 648 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Before I recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush),I would like just to welcome to the galleries specifically ten students from St. Augustine's School at Plum Point 1 with their teacher 1 Mr. Cal Chambers. SOME' HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I understand what the minister is saying 1 that the amount of the provincial grant has not changed.

But would the minister not agree that by raising the loan ceiling, putting it at the front, as she says, raising that to $900 1 that we are forcing the most needy into a financial position that is going to cause hardship, that we are forcing these people right from the beginning to borrow $900? Previously they could borrow $575. It might not be necessary,through certain prudent and wise spending and this sort of thing,to go after the other money. But now we are forcing them right from the beginning to borrow the $900. MR. MARSHALL: Mi. Speaker, on a point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh·, oh! MR.

SPEAKER Order, please! The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, 9ne of the rules of order in asking question and in debate in this House is that one may not be unnecessarily repetitious. The hon. gentleman is repetitious in .this Question Period, yesterday's Question Period, the Question Period before. He is asking the same question over and over again. 1457

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 649 SD - 1 MR . .MARSHALL: The han. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) gets up and answers it and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) then gets up and says the Minister of Education is repetitious. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The time for the Question Period is going by fairly fast and I would refer han. members to Beauchesne, page 132,

Section 359 (_8} which says, "A question that has previously been answered ought not to be asked again". SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member -for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: This is entirely a new question, Mr. Speaker. And if I could get back to my

preamble, where I was pointing out that we are now forcing students to borrow $900 and the people who are going to have to borrow that are the most needy, are we not forcing the most needy, Mr. Speaker, the people who can least afford it, whose families cannot afford it 1 are we not forcing these people into a financial hardship before they begin 1 foreyer, Mr. Speaker, disallowing these people to be able to make a success in society , loading them with th;i,s financ.:j:;.a,l burden right from the beginning? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The han. Minister a:t; Education. Mr.

Speaker, r· have to repeat the most needy students are already borrowing $9.00 a semester and getting a $1,000 provincial government grant a semester, and about a third of our Province's' students receiving aid ·are in that category. The most needy s-tudents are not affected at ·all by any of the changes that are being ~ade in our stuqent aid plan. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: for Terra Nova. Hear, hear. Sl.lpplem7-nta.ry-, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hen. 'ltlember 1458

March 25 , 1 983 Tape No. 64 9 SD - 2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, in trying to justify and rationalize the government's position in this matter 1the minister point,ed out that our student aid progrcunme is more generous than that in other part.s of Canada 7 so, of course, the m9ve was mad.e by the government to bring it more in line with student aid in other parts of Canada. Now having said that, M:i:-. Speaker, I am wondering now if this is going to be a policy of.the government 1 to bring the area of taxation for services 1 and this sort of thing, to our people in line with that in other parts of Canada.

Because th.e Minister of Finance (pr. Collinsl ,in giving the budget, mentioned, of course, that we were being taxed less than other Canadians for municipal taxes and that we are paying less in the area of municipal taxation and in a couple of other areas. Now is this the policy of the government, to bring our taxation levels in other service areas, for example, in municipalities up to the Canadian averge? 1459

March 25, 1983 Tape No . 650 ~J - l MR. T. LUSH: Is this what we are going to be doing? And the minister should know this because the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) said that everbody in Cabinet knew every detail of this Budget, every policy, they knew everything. ' MR. TOBIN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Sit down boy. Order, please! The hon. the member for Te:J;"ra . Nova is proceeding to make a speech. MR. LUSH: MS. L. VERGE: MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: It is a question, Mr. Speaker , Mr. Speaker. The han. the Minister of Educ~tion. Mr.

Speaker, ! do not think that speech or question was directed at anyone in particular 1 but I will rise to the occasion. Mr. speaker, as :r was saying earlier, the extent of a superiority of our Province'~ Student Aid Plan in Canada until now perhaps has not been fully gr~~ped by the member opposite 1and I would just like to repeat some statistics . Our Province provided the highest per student grant of any of the provinces participating in the Canada Student Loa~ Programme . In fact , our Province's average grant was $1,544 when Saskatchewan's average grant was only $881, Mr . Speaker. Now , Mr.

Speaker, how do the members opposite expect us to continue to provide such a superior Student Aid Plan at a time when the federal government is cutting back its transfer payments and its Established Programmes Financing to this Province, payments targeted for higher education,and the federal government is limiting its increase in EPF for higher education and health this year to 6 per cent. And this is at a time, Mr. Speaker, when patent1y it is costing our Province more than 1460

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 650 MJ ~ 2 MS • L. VERGE : a 6 per cent increase to maintain the status quo in our post-secondary institutions. It ~s at a time, Mr. Speaker, when the serious economic problems that were experienced by the Province all along have been worsened, at a time when the federal government is denxing this Province and our people our rightful access to our own resources. Where do the members opposite think that we. are going to get the money to continue to have number one social programmes when we are economically the number ten province in the Confederation? MR. T. LUSH: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. LUSH: Mr, Speaker. The hon. the member for Terra Nova. Mr, Speaker, with that kind of reasoning I can understand now why the minister is not going to meet the students. Mr. Speaker, the minister did not get to the essence of my question at all,so I will make it more specific and more in line w~th her department. In view of the fact that the main reason given by the minister for changes in the Student Aid Programme was to put it more in line with that in other jurisdictions in Canada,, and in view of the fact that the .Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) ,when presenting the Budget,s<d.d that the Newfoundland school tax effort amounts to only 14 per cent of the Canadian average, now is the minister going to encourage the school tax authorities to bring the school tax more in line with that in other Canadian jurisdictions? MS, VERGE: Mr. Speaker, 1461

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 651 NM - 1 MR. SP'EAKER (:RU-ssell}: Ms.- VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I have alw .ays maintained that the main reason we are making changes in our student aid plan is that we cannot afford to continue having a rich plan when we are a poor Province getting poorer. That is the main reason. And when we do start trimming our spending to be financially responsible and minimize our deficit on current account, what are we going to pick?

The logical programmes to be changed, to be reduced, are those which are now superior to programmes in other provinces of Canada, and that is tp.e only reason why we have chosen the student aid plan. It is not something we like to do, Mr. Speaker, out we have no realistic alternative. MR. SP'EAKER: This will be the final question for the Question Perioc, The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, how can the Minister of Education say that they are bringing Newfoundland in line witn the other provinces of Canada with these changes,when; ,you .consider the fact that we have the highest unemployment MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The han. President of the co ·uncil on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is Question Period; the han. gentleman is making a speech, he is commenting on the quality of the Minister of Education's answers.

Yesterday they had a whole half hour to comment on the quality of answers in the Late Show and they did not even have the energy to put one topic up for discussion. 1462

March 25, 19.83 Tape No. 651 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now this is the Question Period when it is the time for asking questions, Mr. Speaker. it is not the time for the han. gentleman to be Eaking speeches. SOME RON ; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Is that not wonderful, Mr. Speaker? He just used up the rest of the time, Mr. Speaker. That was the purpose of that exercise. MR. SPEAKER (Russelll: Again I will remind hon. members that questions should be brief and answers should be brief 4 Indeed, the time for the Question Period has now expired. MR. SPEAKER: and Services. MR. YOUNG: NOTICEs· OF MOTION: The hon.

Minister of Public Works Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Public Works And Services Act, 1973." MR. HICKEY: answer to a questi.on? MR. "SPEAKER: Services. MR. HICKEY: 000 Mr. Speaker, may I give an The han. Minister of Social A question asked by the han. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren} last session, Mr. Speaker, with regard 1463

March 25, 1983 Tape 652 EC - 1 MR. HICKEY: to renovations of ministers' offices. In the case of my own office, I have had my staff check and there have been no renovations since 1968, I believe. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 3. Motion, the han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Provincial Archives And The Management Of Public Records," carried. (Bill No. 31) • On motion, Bill No. 31 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 4.

Motion, the bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," carried. {Bill No . 2). On motion, Bill No. 2 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 5. Motion, the han~ the Minister of Municipal Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of Corner Brook Act," {Bill No. 29). On motion, Bill No. 29 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 6. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The St.

John's Assessment Act," (Bill No. 18). On motion, Bill No. lB read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 1464

March 25, 1983 Tape 652 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Motion 7. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Election Act," (Bill No. 33). On motion, Bill No. 33 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Order 2. On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMlUTTEE OF SUPPLY 1465

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 653 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, if I seem a little dazed let me say that it !s not the fancy elocutionary footwork of the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) that has done it to me, instead it is because I have just been trying to puzzle out some unemployment insurance regulations.

If Your Honour thinks that the estimates before the Committee are at all complicated, You Honour should have a look at the Unemployment Insurance Act, and the regulations made under it, which constantly defeat me, even though many of my constituents seem to be able to cope with them. The Vicky Silk case, interestingly enough, Mr. Chairman, will have an effect upon the situation in this Province, and may even help the Minister of Finance's (Dr.

Collins) dilemna, as it should mean that a great number of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who have been denied benefits for unemployment insurance, will now qualify because of yesterday's decision in the Supreme Court of Canada. NM - 1 However, Mr. Chairman let me come back to the mundane business of the Finance min~ster's estimates, and I am glad he is with us this morning because I think we should have another look at this question of the 1466

...... March. 25, 1983 Tape No. 653 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: retail sales tax estimate . Now the minister's estimates for the year of the yield which he will get from the retail sales tax is,I believe, $340 million . we will get the. figure~ here in a minute . ae is predicting we will receive $340,500,000 and the 1982/83 revised, which would be actual fo r r suppose ten months, up until the end of Janua ry, Eaybe even eleven months until the end of February, and then the estimate for this month of March., the est.i:mated figure for 1982/83 , the current year, is $275 ,600,000.

Now that is an increase of a15out 23 per cent, 23.4 r bel:ieve, one of the people in our office worked out for me. . Now , Mr . Chairma .n, that $75 million increase is at the very heart of the estimates before the Committee, it is at the very heart of the Budget which the minister produced. He told us that he was 1467

March 25, 1983 Tape 654 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: budgeting for about a $30 million deficit on current account this year. But, of course, that prediction will be accurate only if the expenditures do not exceed those which are estimated.and, th~s is the point that I want to stress now, if the revenues that the Province gains, collects from its various sources, federal and provincial, are no greater and no less than the amounts which the minister has estimated. If that $340 million figure is wrong,then the minister's entire Budget is wrong.

Now I know that could be said of any figure in the Budget; if the minister has estimatee that we are going to spend, I do not know, $50,000 on widgets,and it turns out we only spend $45,000, then that will effect his Budget too. But we are here talking of $340 million of a total provincial revenue from $945 million. So we are talking one single tax source which yields more than a third of the total revenue which the Government of the Province will collect from its own taxes. There is an additional $889 million which comes from the much-maligned Government at Ottawa.

That is a direct payment, the transfer payment made by the Government of Canada to our government. That does not take into account the money that the Government of Canada spends in Newfoundland on their own account. It is just simply the amount which comes from Ottawa in the form of cheques to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), about $890 million is his estimate - MR. NEARY: $900 million. MR. ROBERTS: -$900 millions ' in round numbers, and he is estimating $945 million from direct provincial sources. 1468

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 654 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I will give you an example, Mr. Chairman,· just to show how much Ottawa means in the economic life of this Province. I have here the most recent flash sheet which the Statistic Agency puts out, this is the one dated 18th. March, to show the safety net, the effects of the safety net - now that is an American phase, but it seems to become current in Canada - the social safety net, the economic and social under pinnings that underlie us all and to give us the incomes which we must have to enable us to live, because you cannot live without spending money in this world.

Last year in Newfoundland, in the month of December, when these figures were recorded, 55,000 Newfoundlanders were receiving unemployment insurance benefits. In December 1982 - these are the most recent figures that are available to us - a year later, 63,000 Newfoundlanders are receiving unemployment insurance benefits. Now if you realize that the total work force in Newfoundland is only, in round numbers, 200,000 - it was 202,000, in fact, in February 1982, and it was 209,000 in February 1983 - 1469

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 655 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: a third of our total work force is receiving unemployment insurance benefits. And, of course, that just shows how much Ottawa's unemployment insurance support means. One of the reasons why I am reading unemployment insurance regulations is because they are a very real fact of life for every member in the House of Assembly. I suppose half of my constituency case work during the Winter months is tied up with unemployment insurance. I am sure Your Honour has the same experience in the Kilbride district.

Maybe one out of every two telephone calls or requests or letters that come in are related to unemployment insurance. It is a very real fact of life. But the other way it shows up is the fact that people do not have to resort to welfare in this Province. The year over year figures for January, 1983, on able-bodied persons receiving social assistance, without earnings - welfare, the basic welfare, not allowances given to a lady who is a widow or to a mother who has no support for her children~ these are the able-bodied relief figures ~increased only 3 per cent from year over year, January 1982 to January 1983. MR.

CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: The member is wrong. Well,I do not know if I am wrong or not, Mr. Chairman, I am reading the government's figures. If I am wrong it is because the figures a1:e wrong. Unlike the han. gentleman from wherever he is from, St. John's North (Mr. Carter)., I can read, I can also write and that puts me up on him on both counts. The provincial government's figures show that able-bodied relief, welfare, year over year is up by a grand total of 3.2 per cent, while unemployment insurance is up 14 per cent. Now I do not know whether the han. gentleman from St.

John's North ever has anything to do with hi .s constituents or not, nut a number 1470

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 655 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: of his consti 'tuents tell me they cann~ get hold of him. And they are the lucky ones. The ones who do get hold of him are even more unhappy or less happy as the case may be. In any event, I want to talk about the sales tax because the $340 million ,which is such a important part of the provincial revenue, and I have very real doubts about the accuracy of the minister's estimate . Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister and I had a go at each other one day last week about this and he did not answer anything.

His buzzword last week was 'annualization', whatever that may mean. He did not explain it and nobody else was able to explain it. Let us look at actual results. In February 1l982 1 the government of this Province collected in sales tax a grand total of $18,517, 200..

If you divide that by eleven- becaus-e the sales tax in 1982 had not had the Collin's chop, it was only 11 per cent at that stage; mothers could still buy clothing far their families witho·ut having to pay the tax an it - if you divide $18,517,200 by eleven you came to $1,683,381, in other words, ~ach point of the sales tax yielded $1.7 million $1.683 million- in February 1982. And remember the minister is budgeting, Your ffonour, for a 23 per cent increase in sales tax yield ,and he is going to get 8 per cent because he has increased the tax from eleven points to twelve paints.

For the bene~it of my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter)_, that is a 8 per cent increase. rt is one point but it is an 8 per cent ·increase. Now, Mr. Chairman, he is budgeting for a 23 per cent increase and he is going to get 8 per cent of that from the fact that he has · increa .sed the tax. Sa he has to find another 15 or 16 per cent somewhere else. Let us : just look at this February. I have given him the 8 per cent, I am going to compare now the tax yields for a point. 147l

March 25, 1983 Tape No, 656 MJ - 1 MR. E • ROBERTS : In this February the total revenue received from sales tax was $20,186,246. Of course, that is more than February, 1982 because in February 1982 ~t was only $18.5 million; now it is $20,200,000. It has gone up, - Of course it has. But if you look at the take for each point you will find it is exactly the same, The yield from each point of sales tax in February, 1983, py the government's own figures, was $1,682,187. In February, 1982 the yield from each point of the sales tax was $1,683,381 - $1,000 in the difference. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Your time is about up. MR. ROBERTS: Let me conclude by my simply saying to the minister would he be kind enough to explan~n to the Committee how he is going to get the 16 or 17 per cent increase he needs, given that the actual results show that the yield per sales tax point is static? MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for ~t. John ' ::;- North . MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to contribute to that statement because I believe that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr .

R,oberts) - :t th;t;nk. that is his district, which he never visits - is wro ·ng in the larger context. He started his speech by saying that Ottawa spreads a great umPrella of financial protection around this Province, but in the past I have shown, and, not one has been able to successfully dispute my assertion, that the Province of Newfoundland gives to Ottawa each year something of the order of $1 billion, And if the memPer:s of the Committee will bear with me for a few moments, MR. R. BAIRD: How much? MR. CARTER: One billion dollar::;.

Accord~ng to our own figure~ we expect to take in $340 million in sales tax, that is 1472

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 656 MJ - 2 MR . J. CARTER: provincial sales tax . But what is conveniently forgotten is that nearly every manufactured

article also pays a federal sales tax. It is not quite as high as 12 per cent but it is almost 12 per cent and it is on many more items. It is included on may items of food which the provincial sales tax is not on. Therefore you can safely say that o£ all the articles that we cqnsume in Newfoundl<;md at least $350 million is spent on federal sales tax, that is money taken directly out of the pockets - of Newfoundlanders and sent up to Ottawa.

The personal income tax figure in our Budget, I am quoting from our 13udget, is $264 million, but that is the provincial share ot' the federal income tax and the fed~ral income tax is rather larger. Our provincial sbare of the federal income tax is 59 per cent, I believe, 1473

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 657 MR. CARTER: and the federal income tax would be 100 per cent, so that is 159 per cent, so we can safely say that the federal part of the income NM - 1 tax is easily $350 lllillion. It is closer to $400 million but I am being conservative, as is my nature, and saying $350 million a year is taken out of the ?Ockets of Newfoundlanders and paid to Otta~1a in the form of the personal income tax . MR.BAIRD: It is a two way street then, you mean? MR. CARTER: The gasoline tax, _ in our figures, is $62 million, but there is also a federal tax on gasoline.

And I think it is safe to say, again I use a very conservative figure, that Newfoundlanders spend $50 l!lillion a year on gasoline tax directly to the federal government. That is another $50 million. The corporate income tax again, our figure is $45 million, but the provincial share of the corporate income tax is only a very small percentage; therefore we are quite safe in saying that $200 million of corporate income tax goes to the federal government every year. And then the tobacco tax 1 $45 million.

Cer.tainly thel::e is a federal tobacco tax and it is certainl y is large so we can say $50 million goes to Ottawa on behalf of the tobacco tax. Now those are just a few selected taxes and the total of all that is $1 billion. This is not - MR. BAIRD: We should h_ave a credit balance, right? MR. CARTER: No. we still get a lot from Ottawa but this is $l,billion cash dollars that we take out of our pockets, Newfoundlanders take put of their pockets and send to Ottawa each year and that'fact should not be forgotten. 1474

~ March 25, 1983 Tape No . 657 NM- 2 MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward}: The hon. the ~ember for the Stait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I will not need very long to deal with what the hon. gentleman from st. John's North (Mr. Carter) said because he did not say very much. r-m. LUSH: MR. BUTT: MR. ROBERTS: He never does. You should not (inaudible). I am not. I am simply · speaking the truth. We have a phrase in the law, I would say to my friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt), res ipsa loquitor, the matter speaks for itself. That is really all I need to say about my friend from St.

John's North (Mr. Carter}, it is a self-evident, self-destructive proposition. That is what he is. But, you know, I thank . him for his startling insight into the obvious. He has a penetrating insight into 'the obviou5. Of course we pay taxes in Newfoundland, we pay the same tax to Ottaw~ Yes, of course we do.

And if the han. gentleman has forgotten that,I suggest either he or his accountants will remind him quite brutally between now and the 30th. day of April, when he will have to write out a very large cheque,given what I am sure is his income, and have a modest proportion of his income no doubt, but a very large amount, and have to mail it off to the National Revenue authorities in Ottawa. And if he does not do that then I suggest the tax authorities will move on hi~ even more brutually than his accountants will. Sure we pay taxes.

We pay endless taxes because there is no · free lunch - the hon. gentleman knows that but I am 1475

March 25 , 1983 Tape 658 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS : not sure some of his colleagues realize it - there is no such thing as a free lunch, we get what we pay for.

But the point of the matter - of course , he managed to obfuscate it if in fact he ever noticed it to begin with; there would be a question in my mind whether he noticed it to begin with, but 1if he did, he obfuscated it; not successfully, but he did obfuscate it when he spoke here in the Committee -the point of it is this, that the Government of Newfoundland collects about $1 billion in very round figures-it is $940 million, I read it out, it is here in the estimates - from the taxpayers of Newfoundland.

In addition to that, the Government of Newfoundland gets about $900 million, marginally less than we collect ourselves, in direct payments from Ottawa. That has no relation to the taxes we pay. On top of that, of course, we Newfoundlanders pay taxes. I will go with his figure of $1 billion. I have no idea what it is; we could look it up, but I just do not have it here. The CTF, the Canadian Tax Foundation, would have it in its material, .it has marvellous material. The $1 billion is what we pay, every Newfoundlander and every Labradorian,in taxes to Ottawa.

But in turn we get back from Ottawa, as Canadians, because we are entitled to it, I will go with, I am not sure, I think the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) threw out a figure - and I will accept it fa~ the purposes of the argument - of $2 billion.

So we are paying $1 billion in taxes and we get from Ottawa,in benefits that are paid directly by the federal government, unemployment insurance and all the other things, family allowances, the Veterans Affairs allowanqes, the federal civil service in Newfoundland- as small as it may be, good people but small in number- Canada Pension Plan, old age security, whatever, 1476

March 25, 1983 Tape 658 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: the whole gamut of programmes, the whole gamut of expenditures including the money being spent to pave the roads in my district, which is the only money being spent, the money to pave the Northern Peninsula Highway, 90 per cent-of which came from Ottawa; it would not be there yet if it was not for Ottawa putting the money in. They have the cart tracks paved up here but nothing down North if it were not for Ottawa.

But, add it all together and we are getting at leas .t $2 billion from Ottawa in return for our $1 billion,and in addition to that, of course, we are getting our $1 billion from Ottawa which is entirely separate. So Ottawa is putting a grand total of $3 billion into .Newfoundland by the figures from hon. gentlemen opposite, which I will accept simply for the purpose of the argument, and we are getting$1 billion back. That is not a bad deal. But that is not what we are after. I do not want the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to get away without answering the questions.

The question I asked him he has not had a chance to answer so I will sit down and let him answer .. Buti wanted just to demolish the argument of my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter). Let the Minister of Finance tell us if he would,please, how we are going to get the increased sales tax revenue which he has predicted the Province will get, given the 'actual results of what is turning out. 1477

March 25, 1983 Tape No .. 659 ;MJ -1 MR. E . ROBERTS : Why does he expect that we a;t;'e going to get 23 per cent -16 per cent when we ta~e off the result of the sales tax increase -why does he expect that we are going to get that much more from the sales tax this year? There is a gaping hole in the minister's credibility, Sir. MR. J. CARTER: There is a gaping hole in a lot of us. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, there is. Unli~e the memher from St. John's North (Mr. Carter), I realize it, DR. J. COLLINS: Mr, Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. the Min.i.ster af Finance. DR.

COLLINS: Mr, Chairman, I will be glad to try to answer, to give some information. I do not know if the hon. mmeber opposite will feel I have answered his question but I will try to give some information, information I have which led to that projected increase, Mr.

Chairman, the way the ta~ projections are arrived at is that one takes the tax collections for the previous year, In the normal course of events if we are trying to see what tax we will. get in from a particular revenue source in 1983 -84, we will go back to 1982 -83 and see· what we got in in that year; then we will ·look at any changes that are to come about in the New Year q.nd we will relate those changes to the base that we found in the previous year, and then we will come up with our new projection. Now, Mr. Chairman, in doing that in this budget we had a new element come into. the equation.

In the previous years you could go back and say your base from the previous year was related to the tax changes that occurred as of the beginning of the fiscal year. (Extraneous noise) 1478

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 659 MJ - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: God, I am getting a lot of applau~e for the response I am making, MR. E. ROBERTS: If the minister thinks that is applause he should go outside and hear it. DR. COLLINS: A lot of applause. MR. ROBERTS: It is the same applause Marie Antoinette got when she went to the guillotine. DR. COLLINS: I do not want the member~ of the House to match the applause outside. Wait until I h<we finished my answer, please.

Anyway, in the u~ual year the tax increases occurred as of the beginning of the fiscal year, so when you looked at the base on which you based your projection the taxes were all in there. Now, in this pa~t year, as you know, that was not the case~ we brought in tax changes part way through the year, after about ~even months of the year. So you cannot really go back to la~t year's base in the same way as previously. What you have to do, or at least what was done - I do not know if you have to do it this way, I suppose there are a number of way~ you can do it - but what was done wa~ that we looked at 1479

March 25, 1983 Tape 660 PK - l DR. COLLINS: what we would have collected last year if there had been no tax changes in November, we looked at what would be the tax base if there had been no changes in November but nevertheless the economic activity in the Proiince went on as it did in actual fact do. And, Mr. Chairman, if we do that we come up with a revised figure the revenue from retail sales tax at just over $266 million, $266.6 million. Now I would emphasize that that is the amount we would have gotten in if there had been no tax changes in November but the economy had slowed down to the level it did.

Now that $266 million was not what was in the l982-L983 Budget. I do not have the.Budget with me. MR. ROBERTS: $286 million, I think. DR.COLLINS: Was it? I cannot remember, I do not have it with me. It is a different figure. Perhaps you could just let me , for the sake of argument - MR. ROBERTS: $286 million. DR. COLLINS: It may well be. I think you are probably right, Yes, $286 million. We did not get the $286 million because the economy slowed down. We got more than $266.6 million, as I have just said, because we brought in some tax changes.

But,ignore the tax changes, with the economy slowing down we did not get in $286 million, we would have gott:e ·n in $266.6 million. So that is the base we start from. Now we have to add to that the fact that we did bring in tax changes in November which are -- - now going to take effect of course as of the beginning of the fiscal year and go on for the whole twelve months of the fiscal year. And if we take.those taxes into effect we have to add on $41.6 million, 1480

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 660 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: How much? DR. COLLINS: $41.5 million. I will break that down further. The change in rate from 11 per cent to 12 per cent will bring us in $19.1 million. That is very close to the figure of the hon. member opposite; he mentioned that each point of retail sales tax brings in $1.7 million per month. This is a one point change, so $1.7 million per month multiplied by twelve gives you whatever it gives; it gives you very close to $19.1 million anyway. So that is what the rate change will give us, an added $19.1 million.

Now we have to subtract $5 million from that because we decreased the building material tax - a great PC advance in the taxation policies of this Province - we dropped the rate on building materials down from 12 per cent to 8 per cent; actually I suppose strictly speaking we dropped it down from 11 per cent to 8 per cent. But there is that difference of 4 per cent between the retail sales tax that is generally applic~ble and what is applicable to building materials, which is 8 per cent. So we have to drop off $5 million there. 1481

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 661 SD ~ 1 DR. COLLINS: Adult clothing and footwear tax1which went on for the first time in November and now, of course, will be on for the full twelve months in this new fiscal year,will bring in $23 million. There was a change in the taxation on prepared meals. MR. NEARY: again? DR. COLLINS: How much was it for clothing $~3 million. Prepared meals, because there was a change there, will bring in an extra $2 million over a full twelve month period at the rate of the changes, that were made in November. And then the final one, commercial heating fuel.

Th.ere were changes made in the taxation of comme·rcial heating fuels in November and over a twelve month period that wi:Ll bz:ing in another $2.5 milliqn, So if you add those togethe~ the $19 million for the rate change - AN HON. MEMBER: DR. COLLINS: That totals $41.6 million? Yes, $41. 6. million.. Now· th.a,t brings you up to an adjusted 19.82/83 base of $308.1 mi.llion. MR. ROBERTS: $3Ql.8 million? DR. COLLINS: No, $3Q8 .1 milli.on. That is:· the adjusted 1982 base. Now then, we have to add on now two things.

We have to add an the fact that we are going to have inflation, unfortunately, but we are going to have it. And we also have to a.dd on now· the J:Oeal increa.se in Gross Domestic Product. And for those two points we have added an a total of 10 .• 5 per cent -7. 5 pel:' cent was .related to what would be an average inflation rate ove.r the year, and one has to add inflation becaus-e if you buy- a pair of shoes,say1at the beginning of the year and you pay $10.0 for them 1 at the end of t:h-e yeax: .because of inflation, 1482

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 661 SD - 2 DR . COLLINS : you would pay · $107.50. Of course the RST is actually on the selling price, so if the price goes up because of inflation , the revenues go up because of inflation. MR . ROBERTS: Tl'e govenvnent is benefitting fran inflation. DR . COLLINS: Well,it works out that way . I think government wishes we did not have inflation because there may be an up side to inflation but there is also a down side to inflation as far as government expenditures go. So we had to add on the 7.5 per cent for inflation.

Then we have to add on the other 3 per cent for a real increase in Gross Domestic Product . Now you might say that in the budget you did not say there would be a 3 per cent increase in Gross Domestic Product,and that is quite true. I said that we were projecting a 1 per cent increase, and that 1 per cent increase relates to all economic activity in the Province and , of course, 1483

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 662 NM -1 DR. COLLINS: retail sales tax does not really apply to all aspects of economic activity MR . ROBERTS: Not yet . It will when the mini -budget is brought in. DR. COLLINS: A good thought - but it applies to particular aspects of it. For instance, retail trade is estimated to go up between 2 and 3 per cent next year. Rousing starts are estimated to go up between 10 and 20 per cent next year, and so on. So the aspects of the economic activity in the Province to which retail sales tax will have some relation is estimated to go up about 3 per cent.

And by adding in the inflation factor and the real G~oss Domestic Product increase , we had to add on to the adjusted 1982/83 base of $308.1 million an extra $32.4 million. That gives your total projection of $340.5 million as a forecast for retail sales tax returns. Now as I say I have no doubt that one could get at this perhaps in some other way and you might come up with a slightly different figure.

You might question whether it is legi:timate to say that $7.5 per cent. ; is going to be the average inflation rate, perhaps there is goinq to be a di-fferent inflation rate, or you<,might question whether the 3 per cent Gross Domestic Product increase, or the activities related to retail sales tax is a correct figure, I do not know. I am sure you could question that. MR. CHAIRMAN (:Aylward} : Order, please! The han . .minister's time has elapsed . ! Does the hen. minister have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave. 1484

March 25, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward}: of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 662 NM- 2 By leave, the han. Minister Just thirty seconds. I will say this though. We have discussed this with not only our advisors, but we have discussed this with people, knowlegeable people such as people in,say,the business school at Memorial University, Who were interested in how we arrived at this projection, not Dr. Montgomery or Mr. Montgomery, but another gentleman or two, and they had not'great questions about th.e approach we took. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the 1nember for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. And I will take another bite at it1 but I sus pect that the interest of most members of the Committee is hot exact·ly riveted on the methodology by which the government calculations sales tax revenue yields, it is a fairly dry subject and yet it is of consuming importance because of course the particular tax of which we are speaking is not simply a tax like any other. It is a tax unlike any other in that it MR. MARSHALL: Go on. Go on. Go on. MR. ROBERTS: No, I understand. I say to my friend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall} I do not mind the minister going to look out at the crowds.

I can remember being a minister looking out at the crowds gathering there; they were different people but the. same general 1notivating !orce,and I would say to my friend f~om St. John's East that while I am neither a prophet. nor the son of the prophet, I suggest to him that coming events are casting their shadow and history repeats itself. There is no doubt at all in my mind that han. gentlemen opposite are in for an interesting three or four years,and 1ny friend 1485

March_ 25, 19 8 3 Tape No. 662 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: from LaPoile (Mr. Neary! and I, who have been down the roller coaste~know exactly what it is going to feel like. 1486 -. ;~

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 663 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: The budget, I may say, sounds so familiar. I can sit here, close my eyes - MR. NEARY: You could have written it without being there. MR. ROBERTS: We did write the budget a nurnb~r of years ago; the numbers may be a little different but that is all there is to it. In fact, you know, ~r. Chairman, one of the really fascinating developments in our public affairs in the last year or so in this Province - MR. MARSHALL: .There is one difference though. Whatever monies are around are in the hands of the oeoole In your day, whatever monies were around went to the J. ~.

Doyles. MR. ROBERTS: Well,the hen. gentleman may believe that, I do not doubt his belief. I will simply say that he has been over there for eleven years now - whatever it is - turning over rocks and he has not as of yet found any worms. MR. MARSHALL: I look at them everyday I sit here. I see them over there. MR. ROBERTS: There is an intell~gent comment now. We will take that for what it is. worth which is not anything.

But we could talk, if you w~sh, about the fraud perpetrated by the han. gentleman - and the Premier in particular was involved in :it - in spending $110 million on the Lower Churchill wh .en there was no hope at all in 1975 of getting that project underway, a fact which the ·Cabinet of the day knew full welL 1\..nd the great genius, John Crosbie, who is now going to lea.d us out of our economic morass ·, he tells us - he has be .en telling us that for fifteen years -was, of course, party to the fraud as well. But I simply say to my han. friend that one of these days somebody · in the p;t;ess: is going to 1487

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 663 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: write a fascinating story pointing out the parallels between this administration in its decline, which is where it now is 1 and the Smallwood administration in its decline 1which is what happened after, of course, 1966. The parallels are just simply staggering. Closing hospitals - how familiar it sounds ! - Bot~'llood and Markland; where have -I heard those two names before? Harkland is gone and, of course, Botwood is on the hit list and will be going shortly. The gentleman from Exploits (Dr.

Twomey) will fight a valiant rearguard action,, J:le may or may not have his way in the short term 1 but in the long term, given the approach of this government to th.ese issues, Botwood is as dead as the dodo. Now let me come back to where I began to the minister .. I appreciate what he said because he is making some sense now and I think 1 with all deference, he will agree with me that last week he was not making sense; he did not know what he was talking about when he spoke on these points last week.

Now he has been briefed by his officials on the details , and I would not have expected him to be briefed before the points were raised, I do not expect the minister to be intimately aware of all of the minutiae. He might have anticipated the argument and prepared himself, but I do not blame him for not having done that. I do feel that life would have been much easie .r for hii!I if he had, last week, simply said, 1 Look . 1 I know t~at there is a methodology, I am not up on it, I will get it and we will go back at it again later,' which is what he has now done.

What he is telling us is -that he has changed his methodology , the government are now adopting a different methodology to try to calculate the yield - and these a_re only forecasts, only estimates , they have changed their 1488

March 25, 1983 Tape No . 663 SD - 3 MR. ROBERTS: methodology and that is a1ways, of course, a significant admission. A banker will tell you, or a financer will tell you one of the indications when a customer is in trouble is when he changes his bank ~r chang~s his accountant. 1489

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 664 MJ - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: here what we are doing is changing our accountant, we are changing our whole methodology Now, Mr. Chairman, let me ask the· minister if he would -perhaps he could just nod or interrupt me and indicate,unless he wants to speak again which of course he should, he has every right to do so -the finance officials produce for the minister and for hi~ colleagues in the Cabinet a range of estimates on these tax yields. They produce a range on assumptions.

The minister has told us1very frankly and candidly1some of the assumptions~ 7.5 per cent net adjusted inflation during the year. It may be high, it may be low but it is an assumption and there it is for what it is worth; three per cent increase in the Gross Domestic Produc7f retail sales aspect,and that is an estimate that may or may not be a good one but it is an estimate. But of course - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. ROBERTS: If my friend from Mount Scio· (Mr. Barry) would let me continue because I do want the miniter's attention. MR. L. BARRY: You are talking to this man, are you? MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, I am talking to that man. You see, he is not listening or if he is listening he is not understanding but I am talking to him. I will only be a moment or tw~ I say to my friend from Mount Scio. Sit there and see what it is like to sit in the seats of the mighty one~ again. Coming events casting their shadows before them,I hope. Now, Mr. Chairman, what I was asking was whether he will confirm that the government I receive a range of estimates from their advisors -of course they do -and different assumptions produce different results. And would he then confirm that the estimate which he has taken 1490

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 664 MJ - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: is the highest possible estimate. I If he does not confirm that,then we will have some more debate and I will have to challenge his assurnptions,because I his assumptions are valid only as a'ssurnptions and they obviously are the very highest - not the highest possible he could have assumed a Gross Domestic Product increase of 50 per cent instead of 3 per cent - the highest defensible assumptions are what he has taken.

The government officials carne in and said, 'Look~ minister, on this sales tax you will get $300 million on one set of assumptions, you will get $320 million on another, you will get $340 million on another,'and he has taken the $340 million figure because, of course,if he did not,either he would have to come to grips with expenditures,which he has not done - he has not done that, he has offered some sacrificial lambs in Health and ~ ducation because his colleagues have decided that these are people who cannot fight back, and they willlecu:n better about that,- but ·------ they have not approached their expenditures at all, we will · deal with that in the Budget Speech itself if we ever getaround to the debate.

But he has taken the highest assumptions because if not 1 given that he cannot come to grips with expenditures, he is not allowed to do that, he would end up with a massive deficit, far more massive than even the one now that he has admitted. Now, let me as well say to the minister could he deal with the : question I raised 1 which shows that his assumptions are seriously flawed because if you take the actual-results, Mr.

Chairman, from the sales tax yield in the two months in respect of ·which we have and he is not allowed to do that, he figures -we have January and we have February, and I gave - _, February's, and if I can find them in the mess of papers here on my table - the~e they are - I will give January figures ---- - which of course reflect the c:1ristr,as sale, 149-1

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 665 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: the biggest month of the year. In January, 1982 .we received per sales tax point, on the eleven points, $2.278 million. The total yeild '>~as $25,064,000; that comes out to $2.278 million. In January, 1983, which incorporated Christmas 1982 expenditures., we received $30.54 million, and of course that is after taking in - DR. COLLINS: What was that? MR. ROBERTS: - $30.54 million $30,540 ,094 - $30.54 million - and that produces a yield at twelve points of $2.545 million per tax point.

So the yield per tax point from January, 1982 to January, 1983 went up from $2.27e million to $2.545 million, which is an increase of about ten points. And that takes into account, of course, all of the changes of which the minister spoke, all of the assumptions which he built in. The actuai results there, in the two months we have, he is up 10 per cent on one month, the busiest month of the year, and he is up by zero points on the second .

Now, in the face of that - these are actuals, not assumptions ' - can the minister tell the Committee whether he really believes that his prediction of an overall twenty-three point increase will come true, will be the actual results of the yield per tax point~ We only have two month~; we do not have March, of course, it is not over yet. We will not get those figures unitl the 20th. of April, the date the sales tax is due. Could he confirm then whether he still believes that his predictions are accurate that his ass~ptions are valid, given the actual results?

I will again give him 8 per cent of an increase because of the change in the tax rate but where does he get the rest in the face of the actuals? That is my point, Sir. 1492

March 25, 1983 Tape -665 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: These estimates have a metho?ology behind them, but, Sir, they are hopelessly inflated and the problem is we are all going to pay for it. The han. gentlemen opposite, who neither know nor care about this kind of debate, are going to learn'to their chagrin next November or December when the minister· is standing and saying, 'Here is the mid-year economic, here is the course correction.' And you know what is going to happen in the course correction? More tax increases or greater expenditure cuts.

There is no other way out given the minister's performance to date, Sir. ' Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas):: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the han. member opposite suggests that we have changed our methodology radically. That is not so. There new factors that were brought into palce last year because of tax increases half-way through the y.ear are relatively unique - I will not say totally unique; it was never done before, so it is a relatively new element in the whole situation - and that had to be taken into account.

Other than that, there has been no significant c:J::.ange in the < methodology as to how·.,.·we· projected· revenue increases this year over any previous Budget. If there· was a change in methodology,· it was just a totally rational, logical one, realizing that there had been tax incr~ases through the year rather than just at the beginning of the year. 1493

March 25, 1983 Tape No" 666 NM- 1 DR. COLLINS: Now the hen. member also suggested that we took the highest assumptions and I think that he is probably turning his attention particularly towa~ds ·the rate of increase in GfOSS Domestic Product. I do not think he can quarrel too much with the inflation figure. That is about an average.

I think if you will read the Globe and Mail or The Financi ·al Times or whatever, · you will , . . find there that most people are projecting somewhere between a 7 and 8 per cent increase in inflation this coming year as opposed to whatever it was in the previous year just gone by, something around 10 per cent. So I think he is questioning the Gross Domestic Product increase. Well;we are projecting that we will go from about a minus 5 figure in the 1982/83, up to a plus 1 in 1983/84. And the federal government are projecting that they will do very much the same thing.

And there has only been one other provincial budget brought down to date, Manitoba I believe it is, and my memory suggests to me that they are projecting about the same changeover. So our projected increase in the Gross Domestic Product is not out of line with what others are projecting. I do have to · say once again that we take advic ·e from a wide range _of people available to us, economists within the public service, people in the financial field, and other people who are available to us.

We take advice from them as to what is a reasonable projection for economic activity in the Province in the year ahead and they will agree - I will not say they all agree on exactly the same figure, but the consensus of opinion was that we will turn from a minus 5 to a plus 1 in the coming year. So we are not taking the highest assumption, we are taking the best advice we got. It is ne .ither the most optimistic nor the least pe.ssimistic, it is a most reasonable one. 1494

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 666 DR. COLLINS: Now the hon. member suggested that our budget was qoing to sink us like what our friends out there on the Sea Shepherd, or whatever that vessel is called, ar~ hoping to sink the sealers' vessels just like they will not succeed in sinking the sealers' -· . ·- -- -- - ~ vessel~ neither will this government sink this government. Perhaps I might be pe~itted to just r€ad the last paragraph of a letter I got from a senior partner in one of the large financial fi~s in the country.

He was one of the individua~s who gets an annual invitiation to come in on budget day, he could not ·- - -- come but he was courteous enough to send a letter. In the letter he explained why he could not come and in the last paragraph he said - .this is an individu.al from McLeod, Young, Weir: "All good wishes. I have heard rumours of a tiny budgetary deficit. As disappointing as that may be for you, your achievement, relative to the position of all other provinces, is monumental." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

COLLINS~ So there is the Budget that · in the opinion of a very, very knowledgeable senior member of a large financial firm in this Province, that is his assessment of what this government has done for the budget. "Your achievement is monumental." 1495 NM - 2

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 667 MJ - 1 MR. S.NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman , MR. CF...AIRMAN (Bc:Nicholas): A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Oppos 1 i tion. - MR. NEARY: One of the rules of this House is that if you quote from a document or a letter then you have to table the letter. Now, would the Chair order the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),because,he read the last paragraph of the letter, as a matter of fact he now has to table it, Mr. Chairman. DR. COLLINS: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: I think that one does not have to table private correspondence • If one reads a piece of official correspondence you have to table that 1 but you qo not have to table private correspondence. On the other hand,I have absolutely no hesitation in tabling this and as a matter of fact I am rather proud to table it. MR. NEARY: Well then table it. DR. COLLINS: But I would say, Mr. Ch~irman, that there is a personal aspect to the first paragraph and I would hope that that is not used indiscriminately. MR. CHAIRMAN: That point of order has been resolved. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leaqer of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, as hon. members of the House are aware, it is most unusual to bring in capital account experrlitures in . the Interim Supply Bill. Last year it was done for the first time in the history of this Province. MR. R. DAWE: You would not want capital projects delayed? 1496

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 667 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: No. That is what I am corning to. I am going to ask the hon. the Minister of Finance {Dr. Collins) if he will spell out the details of the amounts included in t~e Interim Supply Bill for capital expenditures. Could he give us a list of the road projects, the water and ·sewer projects, where the Summer cottage development is taking place and so on? Give us some more details on the capital amounts included in the Interim Supply Bill. Can the hon. gentleman do that for us? DR. COLLINS: Mr .. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN{McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: ·Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) suggests, ~r at least irnplies,I suppose 1would be a better word 1that it is very unusual to bring in new cap~tal expenditures in an Interim Supply Bill. MR. NEARY: Most unusual. DR. COLLINS: But it has been done before.

The Financial Administration Act, which has been in place for a considerable period of time, speaks to it and indicates that it can be done quite legitimately and the only onus it puts on the Finance Minister _ in bringing it in i·s that it must be specifically referred to when the resolution and the bill pertaining to the resolution is introduced into the Committ -ee. And, of course, that is what I did on the first day a~~ I ~o-uld j~ st go over what I said at that time, that th ere 1497

March 25, 1983 Tape 668 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: are new capital account projects totalling $18.5 million in this Interim Supply Bill. The total Interim Supply Bill is $442 million plus, nearly $443 million. The new capital account projects are: Improvement and Construction, Roads - $13.4 million, and that is part of a totally p~ovincially funded programme. There is no federal funding in that, it is a totally provincially funded programme. If the total programme is $20-million, there will be $6 million that are carry-overs from last year, projects that were not completed last year.

There are about $6 million worth of those to be carried over and then the other $13.4 is now brought to the attention of the Committee. MR. NEARY: Is. this just general maintenance or is this special projects? DR. COLLINS: Improvement and construction. MR. NEARY: Where? DR. COLLINS: I am sure that the hon. the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) will be only too glad to give further details· on that as the Budget Speech proceeds. The next item was Resiaential and Industrial Servicing, which is to be cost shared with the federal government. It is under a DREE agreement so it will be 90-10.

The total amount is $1.7 million. And that refers in large part to water and sewer projects in various areas in Labrador, quite a number of the communi- ties in Labrador. ·MR.· NEARY: Labra'dor? DR. COLLINS: Would that be in Northern Some of them are.. I think ~ the main one is in L'Anse-a-Loup. 1498

March 25, 1983 Tape 668 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: The third one, · Highways, again this is ~ost shared with the federal government on a 75-25 basis and it refers to projects on the Trans-Canada Highway . . These mainly are projects already I unden.,ay but they have a phase to be carried out in 1983 - 1984 as well as the previous phases in 1982 - 1983. The fourth one, Forest Access Roads, these are again cost shared with the federal government 90-10. The total amoUnt spent there will be $1 million. The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power), I have no doubt, will be able to give further information as to where those actual forest access roads will be, but cl.early 1499

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 669 NM- 1 DR. 'COLLINS : they will be to help supply raw material to the paper companies so they will be in the most propitious places for that purpose. The fifth one, bridges and causeways ~ again this is totally provincial. This is a totally provincial programme and the amount to be spent there is just under $1 million. And the final one is the cottage land development, there will be $250,000 there. MR. NEARY: Where? -··. -·-·· DR. COLLINS: These will be, as far as I am aware, mainly on the Avalon Peninsula. MR. DOYLE: And close to Corner Brook. DR.

COLLINS: .And some close to Corner Brook. So some in the East and some in the West. Again I do want to point out very distinctly that this is a self-financing programme, that we are just front end loading the thing really, to get the developing going, then the lots are sold and the money comes back so there is no net expenditure on the part of the provincial government. MR • . CHAIRMAN (Aylward}: Oppositi 0n. MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Mr. Chairman, one of the ministers, I think it was the minister for Labo~r and Manpower said, Did I object to calling tenders and putting people to work?

Well,there is not much employment · involved in that list that the han. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} just read out. Some of that work was started last year, it is just ongoing.· MR. CALLA:N: And finished. 1500

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 669 NM -2 MR. NEARY: And finished. · Some of the work is finished, Mr. Chairman. And so what I would assume the han. gentleman is doing is asking the House to approve in Interim Supply money to pay back bills. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. DR. COLLINS: No. No. MR. NEARY: Some of it is finished, Mr. Chairman. MR. DINN: None of it is finished. MR. NEARY: So there is not going to be much employment created in these projects, Mr. Chairman.

The policy of this administration, their priorities are to develop cottage land, develop land around ponds so that people can have access to the prime fishing areas in t~e Prov~nce, and build Summer cottages. I am all for people being able ~o enjoy their leisure time. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if Your Honour could enforce the rules and ask the ministers to restrain themselves, I would appreciate it. MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD ): Order, please! MR ... NEARY: I am all for, Mr. Chairman , people having a Summer cottage. I am all for that, and being . able to enjoy their leisure time.

But I ask this House. MR. BARRETT: The Daily News. MR. NEARY: That wil make a headline in But I ask this House, is this the~time, is this the number one priority in Newfoundland and Labrador at the present time? Have we heard anything about the fishery in the last couple of weeks in this House - 1501 . ..;.

March 251 19.8 3 1-lR. DINN: yesterday. MR. NEARY: industry. MR. BARRETT: about it now. Tape No. 669 m-1-3 we heard a Big flip flop -the crisis in the fishing They are in Ottawa talking MR. NEARY: Have we heard anything about Corner Brook? Did the Min~ster of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) 1 who all of a sudden now that r have stood in my place in this Rouse, is aetting snarky and lippy over there 1 will the hon. minister get up and tell the Rouse whether he is going accede to the request from the people in Corner Brook to have an industrial .enquiry into the 1502

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 670 JV - .1 MR. NEARY: Bowater operation in Corner Brook? Would not that be a top priority of the administrati .on? Would it? Mr. Chairman, this administration, their policy, 'their priorities are building jails, developing lots for summer cottages and buying obsolete tracking stations. That is the philosophy of this administration. No justification in this world for spending a million dollars on that obsolete tracking station at Shoe Cove. Mr.

Chairman, while they are announcing that they are going to buy this obsolete tracking station ;that is useless to anybody - it would not have been closed by the Federal Government if it was any good. It cannot penetrate the clouds, it cannot see after dark, it cannot track icebergs, it cannot track ice and yet the Provincial Government are going to attempt to buy it and operate it, while at the same time they are announcing the closure of hospital beds an.d the cutting back of student allowances in this Province. · MR. DINN: Is there not a hospital ~g in Port aux Bas~s? MR.

NEARY: The Minister of Manpower (Mr .Dinn) i~ at again. I would gladly take my seat if the hon. gentleman would get up and make an announcement that the administration have decided to have an industrial inquiry into the Bowater operation, something that the people of Corner Brook have been ---- ·-·.. - --- --·--- asking for now since last Fall.

They have been asking for an industrial inquiry sin~e the administration, especially the Premier, covered up and sat on information that 'he had in co~nection with the Bowater operation in Corner Brook, refused to give the people the information and is now - .. resisting and refusing to appoint an industrial inquiry to look into the whole Bowater operation. 1503

Ma .rch 25, 1983 Tape No. 670 JV - 2 HR. NEARY: That i.s something the administration can do, something positive . MR. DINN : Who will that employ? MR. NEARY: Who wi.ll they employ?Mr. Chaix:man 1 it might be the ~alvation of _.savi.ng the Bowater Mill and the logging operation that goes along with it . It might be successful in doing that. I call upon the administration now to accede to the request of the ·peeple of Corner Brook, to grant their request. It is not very 9ften Corner Brook asks the Admi.nistration or this House to do somet .hing speci.al for tl'ie second city i.n this Province - not ve .ry often. They have given the Premier and the administration fou .r sea~s, 1504

March 25, 1983 Tape 671 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Humber East, Humber West, Humber Valley .!-1R. DINN: Bay of Islands • MR. NEARY: - and Bay of Islands. They have given the administration four out of the forty-four seats,so the least the Premier and the administration could do is to give Corner Brook an industrial inquiry so they can find out about the future of the paper mill. That is a reasonable request, is it not? Is it not a fair request? Well,why will they not do it? They are spending all their time at foolish nonsense, Mr.

Ch~irman, worrying about obsolete tracking stations, and building cottages, providing building lots for Summer cottages • Well and good. I mean, I am all for it, but is that the priority;-and building jails. How many jails have they built in this Province in the last three or four years? MR . . BARRETT : while you are still on the loose they· do not have enough yet.­ MR. NEARY: ·How many jails? Well,we might need - the way the administration is headed,the disaster course that they are on, Mr. 'Chairman, maybe they will fill up the jails themselves.

They have built one in Bishop's Falls, one in Stephenville, and one in Labrador. Building jails all over the Province. They come in and they have the face to announce in this House , 'We are pleased' they say - I heard the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) the other day saying he was pleased that there was a jail opened in Bishop's Falls. Why would anybody be pleased about opening a jail? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • 1505 ..;

March 25, 1983 Tape 671 PK - 2 MR . NEARY : Well that is another question. Mr . Chairman, the point I am making is that their priorities are upside down. It is hospital beds ,maintaining a high level of health care service in this Province. And the hon. Minister of Health (Mr. House) can argue all he wants that sick people are not going to suffer as a result of his cutbacks . Be made a statement the other day . It just rolls off their lips . If they are challenged, Hr. Chairman, they cannot back it up. It just rolls off their lips.

The minister made a stat _ement the other day that nobody will die in this Province because of the cut in hospital funding. 'Nobody will die' , the hon . gentleman said . Bow does he 1506

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 672 MJ- 1 MR. S. NEARY: know that nobody w-iU die? I was talking to a doctor the other day, a couple of nights ago, who told me that the list of people waiting to get in hospital for surgery would frighten you, There are forty~odd beds closed at the Health Science ' Complex. And they are going to have to close more beds, not only at the Health Science Complex but all over the Province.

And this doctor told me that the waiting list of people wanting to get in for major surgery is frightening~And he was telling me about one case,where the surgeon who does open heart surgery had quite a waiting list, he could not get beds ~or his patients~ and when he did finally get a bed for a man who needed a triple bypass, when he finally got around to it, getting a bed for him, he called up the family and discovered that the man had died a week before, Now, that is something, Mr, Chairman. The surgeons are embarrassed.

Our professional people are being embarrassed by these long waiting lists that they have,and yet the Minister of Health (Mr. House) has the face to stand in this House and tell us that nobody.will die as a result of the reduction in the level of health care service in this Province. It is a funny thing, Mr. Chairman. We can see \ the true nature of this administration when they introduce policies to try to save a few dollars and to keep their deficit down. Who do they take it out on?

They take it out on the sick, and on the students and the people on welfare, the poor people,because they feel that these are the people who will not fight, who cannot defend themselves, Mr. Ch;;~irman. Well, the students are showing us today that they can defend themselves. They are out front n:'w in the hundreds, and they will probably be there shortly in the thousands, showing this administration how much they object to their backward policies, The first ones they hit~ sick people, 1507 --

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 672 MJ - 2 MR. S.NEARY : defenseless people, The next group they hit are welfare recipients, people who cannot defend thernselves ,and then the next group they brutalize are the students in this Province . They will be getting up now one after the other and te1ling us that the greatest resource we have in this Province are our young people while they are creating an atmosphere and an environment in this Province,in the field of education, Mr. Chairman , where you will have to be the son of a rich, wealthy person in order to get a post -sec ondary education in this Provi nc e. MR .

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please ! The hon. the members time has elapsed . MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon . the President of the Council . MR. MARSHALL : Well, Mitt. Speaker, it is one thi.ng for sure, the gr eates t resource we have are not our old people,becau se we have just had a ten minute example - -- - of our old people giving us a dissertation. 15 08

March 25, 1983 Tape 673 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: on the same old types of politics that occurred in the 1950s and the 1960s, repeated over and over again. It is the same type of speech he makes over and over again without any substance. Now, Mr. Speaker, at the risk of the Leader of the Opposition {Mr. Neary) accusing me of reading a lecture, I am gain~ to briefly just tell the members of the Opposition and the House once again - just very briefly - what we are about right now. We are considering Interim Supply.

We are asking for Interim Supply of two months, based on the · details of the Budget given by the Minister of Finance {Dr. Coll:ins). By the rules of this House, we have brought in the Budget Speech, we have referred the various depart- ments to committees. There is work to be done with respect to the passage of the Budget, with respect to the passage of the Interim Supply. Under the Standing Orders, there are seventy-five hours giveri- for consideration of supply.

According to my calculations, we have sixteen departments referred to committees, so that is forty-eight hours; we have nine which we have to allot to the Concurrence debates, which is fifty-seven. We have consumed between eight and nine hours now, so we are up to sixty-five or sixty-six hours with no prospects of doing anything other than the Interim Supply. I \·;rould suggest to the han. gentlemen opposite that the questions they have which do have a certain amount of validity, are best asked when we come down to the detailed estima~es.

I would also point out to the han. gentleman that on Interim Supply,, we have to get Interim Supply by the end of March in order to pay the bills for April 1st. I would further point out to him 1509 .:

March 25, 1983 Tape 673 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: that this year in a most timely fashion ever, the Budget has been brought down by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) - in timely fashion - so I would suggest our best course of action would be to - there has been a lot of debate on Interim Supply and obviously, from the speech just rendered by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), the questions asked have run down.

The Opposition is running down on this matter, so why do we not pass it and get on to consideration of the estimates that are still here before the House in Committee of the Whole, so that we will not get to the stage, and I know the han. gentlemen will not wish to, where the Executive Council and Legislature have retreated to Your Honour just calling out the heads and going down through, as we will, of course, when the time limit expires. Having said that, I will pass to the han. gentlemen there opposite. There are three of them over there now.

They could have a leadership convention if they wish, if they do not agree with what the leadership - I sat watching today and I really felt sorry for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) because it was the same tired, old speech. I saw the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) - and here he comes in - and the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) there, and I thought, 'They could get together now and have a leadership convention and replace the hon. Leader. So these are my · 1510

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 674 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: words of advice with respect to procedure. MR. CALLAN: Tell us about the 40,000 jobs. Tell us about the Shoe Cove station. MR. MARSHALL: I am glad the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) has come in because there is one thing that I cannot sit down without drawing to his attention something that he mentioned in Question Period this morning. In Question Period this morning he asked the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), who, by the way, received the most cordial of receptions down there before the students. He went out and put the government's position - SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh. l-1R. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD) : Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: The han. gentlemen should not int~rrupt now. MR. WARREN: Is that so? (Inaudible) in fifteen minutes. MR. MARSHALL: The han. gentleman is much better on his feet saying 'Mr. Speaker' than interrupting me now. HR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Anyway, r want to get onto the member for Terra Nova. The member for Terra Nova asked the Minister of Education-in response to the questions s-he said., 'Look, we had the most generous of programmes w~ th respect to student loans in Canada and we cannot afford it'.

So then he gets up and he asks a question-and here is the Minister of Education now, he asked the Minister of Education, he said to her, 'Is it then the policy' -this· was a big - thing he wanted to make - 'Is it also the policy of this government to bring taxes down to the same average? If we are going to have services do.wn to the same average, are we going to bring taxes · down?' Well,imagine the han. gentleman 1511 --

March 25, 1983 Tape No. 674 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: asking that. Sure does he not know that that is the policy of this government, that indeed one of the major cornerstones of the policy of this government, one of the reasons why we want to have some control over the offshore and some control of th .e revenues is for that very pur'pose? Monies· for the government come. from two sources - from the people through taxation or through resources. Already our people are taxed to death. The taxes are far too high and this government want to reduce the taxes.

It is faced with. a budget, what can it do? ~t can only slash expenditures or put the Province in bankruptcy. The only other alternative, and the one that we are seeking, is to increase the revenue from resources ·. So I say to the hon. gentleman, yes indeed it is the policy of this government to get our taxes down to the average of the rest of the Canadians. And if the han. gentleman and his confreres would join us in that instead of backing up Ottawa as it does from time to time,and giving the impression that Newfoundlanders are divided

whereas they are not, giving the impress·ion that Newfoundlanders are divided, perhaps we would a.tta.in that more quickly. And look at the logic that the hon •. gentleman uses in his question of the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge} • H:e thought he had a great awakening for everybody. On the one hand the Minister of Education was saying we cannot afford a programme more generou!;i than the average Canadians. And he ge .ts up and he thinks it is a great intellectual exerci .s.e to ask that particula