Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Statements by Ministers — 14 December 2000 (44th General Assembly, 2nd Session, Vol. XLIV No. 33)

2000-12-14

Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)

December 14, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol.XLIV No.33

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday, in this House, Your Honour made a ruling regarding comments by the Member for Cape St. Francis. On

December 6, points of privilege were raised by the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace and Cartwright-L'Anse au

Clair. Your Honour, referred to Beauchesne's 6th Edition, §409.(7) which states: "A question must adhere

to the proprieties of the House, in terms of inferences, imputing motives or casting aspersions upon persons within

the House or out of it." Subparagraph 481.(

e) states: that a member, while speaking, must not "impute

bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged by a Member." Your Honour ruled that there was no

point of privilege and we respect and concur with that decision.

Also, on December 6, two members of the Legislature, the Member for Bay of Islands and the Member for Carbonear-Harbour

Grace raised points of order. Your Honour ruled at that time, on December 6, as indicated in Hansard that there

was no points of order and business continued.

Mr. Speaker, your decision yesterday referred to unparliamentary language by the Member for Cape St. Francis.

I advocate that the only two points of order raised on December 6, and indicated here in Hansard, were ruled out

of order by Your Honour at that time. The only question that could have been taken under advisement was the question

of privilege, and your ruling yesterday indicated there was no point of privilege.

It is unprecedented to revisit and render a ruling on a point of order that was already ruled on at that time,

on December 6. If such a precedent is followed every future decision on every point of order can be revisited

at any time in the future, rendering Parliament ineffective in maintaining order to conduct the people's business.

I ask Your Honour to review Hansard, to take into consideration my comments, and exonerate the Member for Cape

St. Francis because the decision was already rendered on this point, on December 6.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I am surprised that the hon. the Opposition House Leader would stand on this very, very important issue. I would

suggest that Your Honour, in making the ruling on the point of privilege, was faced with all of the options that

came there under and could have ruled that it was a point of privilege, or that it was not a point of privilege,

which Your Honour did. I expect His Honour decided that although it did not meet - in his view was a prime facie

case and met the rules of a point of privilege but decided that what the hon. member did was certainly unparliamentary

and that is the context in which I took it, without reference to the various points of order.

MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: I want to be clear on the statement made by my colleague and the Opposition House Leader. There

have been many occasions, I say to the Government House Leader, in this House that we have come back, after a ruling

has been made by His Honour, and asked and sought clarification on a ruling. This is part and parcel of the place

we sit in and the rules that we abide by. The point made by the Member for Ferryland and the Opposition House

Leader today is a very legitimate one, in our view, and a very serious one, I say to Your Honour, and we respectfully

put it forward in that context.

I believe in the latter part of the member's statement he asked very clearly that you review, if you would, to

give us further clarification on the matter of your ruling because we believe that the ruling itself could set

precedent and in any way, shape or form in future - other speakers, parliaments, governments and other Houses of

Assembly may be impacted by that very ruling. In

summary I will say this, that it is a legitimate point that the

member raises, one that seeks clarification from the Chair, and in no way meant to be disrespectful or discourteous

of the Chair, but one that seeks clarification. I believe that is what the member has asked for and I applaud

him for seeking that clarification today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: To the point raised by the hon. member, I will certainly review Hansard and the comments that have

been made.

I just want to remind members that making a precedent in the House is not unusual, or setting a precedent is not

unusual. Many Speakers make rulings that set precedents in the House, so the issue of setting a precedent is certainly

not a point that one would consider. Even with precedents, Speakers have often changed precedents in the House

because of the circumstances and the time.

The point of order that the hon. member raised in the beginning - I think it was the Member for Carbonear-Harbour

Grace - I had ruled at that point, no point of order, but the comments that were made by the member occurred after

that point of order was decided on by the Chair. In reviewing, I saw that the comments the member had made; but,

in the meantime, a number of people had interjected, somebody else had raised another point of order, and the Chair

had decided that we would take points of order and points of privilege after the Question Period.

I will certainly review the point that the hon. member has raised, and take it under consideration.

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to take a couple of minutes today, in Statements by Members, to wish a Happy Birthday, but I think

it is a very special Happy Birthday. I did take time last year to do the same thing, and I am glad to say that

I can do it again this year and hopefully again next year. It is to Mrs. Helen Chipp, in King's Point, who was

born in 1892, on December 29. She will be 108 years old on December 29, 2000.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: She will be 108 years old on her birthday, on December 29, so this is the last chance today to wish

her a Happy Birthday.

I just spoke to her daughter, who is seventy years old, who she still lives with in King's Point. She is still

very healthy. She has a little bit of failing eyesight but, other than that, she does not complain very much.

She was born and originally comes from Bobbys Cove, which was a small fishing community on the Baie Verte peninsula.

There is nobody living there now at this time. She has three surviving children, and five deceased.

I had the chance and opportunity - and I will again this year, I hope - to drop in with my children. She sits

with us, talks with us, remembers the good old days to even my children, and cracks a joke every now and then,

so I was really glad to hear this morning from her daughter that she is still fairly healthy. We hope we can all

wish her that Happy Birthday on December 29, and hopefully again next year I will be able to do the same thing

in this House.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: I would like to move that the Speaker convey, in the form of a unanimous motion of this House, that

we all want to wish this lady, who will be 108 years old, a very Merry Christmas and certainly an especially Happy

Birthday.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, by leave, I would certainly want to be associated with the remarks of the Member for Baie

Verte and the Premier, in that the unanimous greetings from the House of Assembly would go forth for the wonderful

age and longevity of this woman, and continued good health.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I support the motion but I need to know, when the best wishes go out to this individual

of 108 years, who will be signing it. Will it be Your Honour, or will it be Santa Tulk, I say to the House? Because

if it is Santa Tulk, we will have to do something ourselves.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: Agreed.

The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to talk about an accomplishment by a group of young people from the North Coast of Labrador. The

boys volleyball team from the little community of Hopedale took

part in the regionals in Goose Bay and, after winning

the regionals, they traveled on to Random Island to compete in the Single A Volleyball All Newfoundland and Labrador

Tournament. Nine teams were entered, teams from every riding of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The volleyball team from Hopedale won the All Newfoundland -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ANDERSEN: Mr. Speaker, it is the second time in three years that they have accomplished this feat.

There are many times when we hear of statistics from the North Coast that we rate number one in the wrong way,

but this is one time that I can stand and tell this hon. House and all the hon. members here, on behalf of the

coach, the members of the team, the community of Hopedale and the riding of Torngat Mountains, that we are number

one.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to provide an update to the Members of the House of Assembly concerning the Christmas tree and wreath

industries. These industries are in the early stages of development and it is a long-term venture very similar

to the orchard industry. There are approximately 3,000 locally cultivated trees on the market this year. The

cultivated tree industry consists of approximately twenty-five growers throughout the Province.

In addition, the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods provides permits for a wild harvest. These are the

trees that you will find for sale in tree lots throughout the Province. There are approximately twenty-six cutting

permits allocated up to this date.

The government believes there is economic potential for this industry. It is estimated that approximately 17,000

trees are imported annually from Atlantic Canada for an approximate value of $400,000. In 1998, government formulated

a policy with respect to the development of the Christmas tree industry. Over the past two years, training workshops

have been held across the Province to encourage and provide technical assistance to potential growers.

In 1998, in addition to local sales, there were approximately 10,000 wreaths exported to mainland markets. In

the fall of 1998, two pilot projects were initiated to explore the wreath industry. There were many positive results

from these projects, and accordingly there has been a lot of interest generated throughout the Province. Export

and local sales increased significantly in 1999, as interest continues to grow in this sector. The forecast for

2000 is encouraging, with an increase in the number of producers and continued product diversification.

The wreath industry has the potential to create considerable seasonal employment with respect to the harvesting

of balsam fir tips and the tying of the wreaths. In New Brunswick, this industry offers employment to approximately

2,500 seasonal workers.

Christmas tree and wreath farming is labor intensive and requires limited capital investment, which is the type

of venture that can be especially attractive to rural areas where unemployment rates are higher and new business

opportunities requiring limited investment are rare.

Newfoundland and Labrador has an abundance of balsam fir which is the species of choice in the wreath industry.

The removal of tips for wreath production, if done in the correct manner, has no measurable effect on the production

of wood fibre that would raise concerns for other forest industries. Departmental staff are confident that this

industry will prosper over the next few years and provide much needed employment, especially in rural areas.

I encourage all Members of the House of Assembly and fellow Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to buy local Christmas

trees and wreaths, and I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the minister for forwarding me a copy of his statement earlier. Even though this is a good

thing for rural Newfoundland and Labrador, some of these facts stated here are disturbing to me when I see 17,000

trees imported and 2,500 jobs in New Brunswick, when we could be using those 2,500 jobs here in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: Even though we are probably on the right track, I would like to encourage the minster to continue to

enhance the Christmas tree industry, and not only that, the wreath industry. There is a lot of potential in that

industry for people in our Province to create lots of jobs in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

I myself received a number of calls in the past two or three weeks from people living on the mainland who were

wondering about coming home and starting up businesses in wreath tying. Even though this is good, I encourage

the minister and his colleagues to enhance that industry, and bring back a lot of our people who are living away,

to get involved in this industry. Then the next time that statement is made, the 2,500 jobs will be right here

in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is nothing more indicative of the lack of diversification of our forest industry than to see the comparison

between the import of Christmas trees and those grown locally. There is nothing more obvious and disturbing to

those of us who are concerned about making sure that work and resources are maximized in this Province. It is

a bit of Johnny-come-lately for us, but I commend the minister for whatever initiatives can be brought forward

to encourage this type of business development in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to see the Opposition in such fine spirits. I just want to heighten their mood by

telling them about the significant developments that are occurring under the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program

that the Province brought in a few years ago.

As members know, in 1999 the government extended the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program from a three year to

a five year program. Along with this extension, we took the decision to inject an additional $250,000 into the

mineral exploration sector. It is important to note that this was one of the key recommendations emanating from

the Jobs and Growth Mining Forum.

This program is now a $22 million/five year government and industry initiative to encourage increased mineral exploration

and development activity throughout the Province. This program, which has three separate components, is achieving

great success.

Since the Prospectors Assistance Program's inception in 1999, approximately 200 prospectors have received funding

totaling $527,000. This program provides grants of up to $4,000 to individual prospectors working in Newfoundland

and Labrador. They then spend at least a matching amount of "in kind" expenditures.

To date, thirty-seven grants have been issued under the Junior Company Assistance Program totaling $1,964,000.

This program provides a 50/50 cost sharing of eligible costs to junior exploration companies that have achieved

and advanced exploration projects on known mineral prospects in the Province. The department enters into project

specific agreements with these junior companies to cost share eligible expenditures up to a limit per project.

To date, ten grants have been issued under the Dimension Stone Incentive Program totaling $310,500. This program

provides for a 50/50 cost sharing of eligible up front costs of new quarry and plant development for dimension

stone projects.

Mr. Speaker, it is encouraging to see the growing interest in our mineral exploration sector. The strength of

our industry relies on new exploration. As more people begin to explore the mineral potential of this Province,

we will witness new discoveries that will hopefully lead to new mine developments. This will result in an increase

in investment, employment and revenue for the Province.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program is an excellent example of the commitment

and confidence that government and industry have in the future of the Newfoundland and Labrador mining sector.

It now gives me much pleasure to table the names of those recipients who have received grants under this program.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is, indeed, positive news for the mining industry in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: And we see no buts, there are no buts.

We have 200 prospectors which have benefitted from this program. As we all know in this industry, there is an

element of risk and when companies in this Province undertake this risk, it is only reasonable and appropriate,

I would say Mr. Speaker, that government offer some assistance to those companies. As we are all aware, and I

am sure as the minister is aware, the vast majority of exploration companies in this Province are junior mining

companies and I am sure, on their behalf, this type of assistance is well received. This is positive news and,

in fact, I congratulate the minister for making this announcement today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There was a time when the minister's predecessor was known as the minister of mine and energy, singular, but that

has changed in the last couple of years. One of the means of continuing to change it is to have support for mineral

exploration. We support this as a kind of initiative that needs to happen for us to have new mineral discoveries

in this Province.

We would also like to take this opportunity to ask the minister when he, and his government, are going to remove

and change the amendment to the Mineral Tax Act, which provides a tax free holiday for up to ten years for any

new mineral exploration. There is no cap on that, and that has to change; but we support this initiative and hope

it leads to further mineral discoveries in the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, today I stand to update my colleagues on the $23 million Northern Coastal Labrador

Strategic Initiative announced in March of this year, for the five communities of Nain, Hopedale, Rigolet, Makkovik

and Postville. Approximately $8 million of this initiative has been allocated for a housing component with another

$6 million for roads, and $9 million for water and sewer servicing.

Mr. Speaker, our government recognized the need to provide and upgrade basic infrastructure in these communities

to meet current needs and respond to future growth. This work is being done in partnership with the Departments

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, Works, Services and Transportation, and with the help of my colleagues, the

hon. Ernie McLean, Minister of Government Services and Lands, the hon. Rick Woodford, Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation, and MHA for the area, Wally Andersen.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: The co-ordination of this initiative and consultation with communities has been overseen by a

Strategic Initiative Team. The team is chaired by a senior representative of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation, and includes senior regional officials from Municipal and Provincial Affairs and Works Services and

Transportation. Mr. Speaker, the continued commitment and partnership of the local communities in the development

and delivery of this project has also been a crucial factor in enabling the project to move this quickly.

While time constraints meant that year one focused on the delivery of basic family housing, the next two years

will provide an opportunity for additional consultation in the community to best meet the needs of residents.

I am very pleased to advise that, in its first year, the housing component of this initiative has provided eighteen

families with new homes. Another fifty-seven families have undertaken repairs and renovations to their homes.

Construction began in August of this year, and completion of the new houses and the majority of renovations is

expected within a week.

The focus on new homes was in Nain this year, where ten houses were constructed. Home repairs were emphasized

in the other communities. Over the three-year life of this initiative, we expect that about sixty-five new houses

will be built and approximately 125 homes will be renovated.

Within the next few weeks, we expect meetings to take place for the planning of the housing program for years two

and three. A plan for year two will be presented for approval to the advisory committee early in the new year.

In addition to family housing, it is hoped that we will be in a position, in consultation with the community,

to address special needs requirements with groups such as seniors.

Mr. Speaker, in the community of Makkovik, almost fifteen kilometres of road work was completed this year. A contract

for 8.7 kilometres of local road upgrading in Nain has been awarded and work has begun. Next year, road work in

Nain and Makkovik will be completed. In addition, the design work is in place to call tenders for the remaining

$3 million of work to upgrade local roads in the three communities of Postville, Rigolet and Hopedale.

This year, $3 million was spent on water and sewer services, with minor clean-up and restoration work remaining

for next year. This funding has provided for new serviced lots in four communities including: seventeen in Nain;

twenty-four in Hopedale; twenty in Rigolet and ten in Makkovik.

Engineering work for next year's project has been commissioned and is proceeding to allow an early tender call

and the start of the construction next spring. This work will allow for the construction of new serviced lots

and houses, especially in Hopedale and Nain. We expect that an additional twenty new serviced lots can be provided

for Hopedale, ten for Nain, ten for Rigolet, ten for Makkovik and five for Postville.

Mr. Speaker, through this initiative, approximately $7 million has been spent in this area this year. This has

provided much needed infrastructure, and this initiative will continue over the next two years. This initiative

has also created numerous employment opportunities for the local construction industry, generated a variety of

associated spin-off jobs, and stimulated economic activity in these Labrador communities. We look forward to a

continued partnership with these five communities over the next two years as we improve infrastructure to the benefit

of the residents.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the minister for a copy of her statement today. Certainly, we

support this initiative. It is long overdue, in a lot of people's minds, certainly with the problems we have had

in Northern Labrador and throughout the Province, that basic infrastructure is a basic need, I say to the minister,

as in roads, water and sewer and so on, especially in the harsh climates of Northern Labrador. It certainly has

to be a better class of living for the people who live there.

I would also say to the minister that overall, throughout this entire Province, if we are going to encourage development

in all parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, basic infrastructure is a must. If we are going to entice people

to live in our communities, we have to be able to tell them that they have proper water and sewage and that they

have a good road to drive over. When we look around the Province and see 900 kilometers between the Island portion

and the Labrador portion of this Province that are still gravel roads, it is certainly a concern.

Yes, it is a move in the right direction. I believe we should move towards it in a more rapid way than the government

has been doing in the past years. If we are going to continue to develop rural Newfoundland and Labrador in the

way that is should be developed, the first thing we have to start with is basic infrastructure. It is well deserved.

I hope that the project is on target and that we can span out into all parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador

until we see the same effect.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

When this money was budgeted last year in the budget, this past spring, we certainly applauded the allocation of

money to the North Coast to provide the services that, in many cases, most of us in this Province take for granted.

It is good to see that a substantial amount of work has already been completed this year.

I agree with the minister when she says that this money and the work that is taking place there has created an

economic boost for the area. Probably even more important than that, it has provided, in my opinion, a great moral

boost to the people of the area as well who, many times, being so remote from St. John's in particular, probably

feel left out of the provincial activities for a large part.

Again, it is great to see the money being utilized in this respect. I am sure that the Member for Torngat Mountains

is to be commended. I am sure he is proud of the involvement he had in making this possible.

Thank you.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the President of Treasury Board. I will get to the outgoing Premier in a few moments.

Hang in there. Patience. 'Tis the season. I will lobby you a couple of balls in about five minutes, I say to

the Premier.

A couple of days ago, the President of Treasury Board stood in this House and, in Hansard, said that the true balance

of government's books last year was a $13 million deficit, and not $221 million as the Auditor General reported.

In view of the information that has been laid on the table by the Auditor General, can the minister stand in her

place today and still contend that the real deficit for this Province is only $13 million and not $221 million,

as the Auditor General has indicated?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, as I said the other day in the House, in response to the Leader of the Opposite, the deficit

that we showed, as a government, was $13 million. I also said that we are on a cash basis system of accounting.

What you are referring to is an accrual basis. The difference - I think you quoted $221 million - that is contained

in the public accounts.

I also want to tell you that most jurisdictions across the country do no include their unfunded liability for their

pensions. The adjustment interest alone for unfunded liability in our pensions last year was over $200 million,

which accounts for the figure in the public accounts.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the $221 million has absolutely nothing to do with the real deficit. Any board in this

Province that this government is responsible for also is responsible for the debt.

I would like to refer the minister, in case she does not know, to a report that was tabled in the House this week,

a document called the Public Accounts, Volume 1. On page 7, if she would like to have a look at it, of the report

of the Comptroller General - the Comptroller General, Mr. Williams, is a certified accountant and the government's

own internal auditor. Will the minister confirm that Mr. Williams, in his audit of the public accounts of the

Province, puts the deficit for 1999-2000 at $221,334,000, which is exactly what the Auditor General said it was.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, what I would say to the Leader of the Opposition is that he is trying to make a play on

the numbers today. He knows full well that this House of Assembly votes on the annual Budget which is based on

a cash basis. The amounts owing by boards, which include hospital boards, school boards, and all other Crown agencies,

are located in our public accounts.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I do know a couple of things; there is no question about that. The minister stands

in the House today. We know full well that the House of Assembly votes on it. Did we vote on $70 million passed

at the Cabinet table, that was not tabled in the House of Assembly? No, we did not.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, what is at stake here was the play that this government made last year, the charade

that talked about a low deficit. How can the minister stand in her place and continue to insist that the deficit

was only $33 million, barely 15 per cent of the real audited deficit?

Let me ask her: What authority can she give to the people of the Province to back up her claim that the deficit

is only $33 million, when the only two people in the Province, both of whom work for this government, indicate

that the real numbers are $221,334,000? How can you back up that claim, Minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition just stood in his place and said that the amount of $70 million

was not voted on in the House of Assembly by the people sitting here.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, it was only two days ago that was voted here in this House by these people, so obviously

they do not know what they are talking about.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievable. This is the President of Treasury Board who stands in her House

and tries to spin to the media and the people of the Province that the unfunded liability -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: - is included in this $221 million, when it is clearly not. The Comptroller General is an official

of your department. He sent his audited report to the President of Treasury Board in November. He sent it to

the Minister of Finance. He knows exactly what I am talking about, and he knows that I am right.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Here is the signature. Your signature is on the document, Minister, President of Treasury Board.

Page 7 shows the real deficit.

Let me ask you if you will stand in the House and back up the professional audit of the public accounts done by

a top official within your department, that did confirm that the real deficit for this Province on this year is

$221 million? You knew it back in April. Will you stand up and admit it right now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, for the interest of the Leader of the Opposition and members sitting opposite I think

I am going to have to give you a lesson in accounting today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: I would like to ask her if she would give one to the Controller General.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, the Institute of Chartered Accountants across Canada have been looking at accounting in

all jurisdictions. Not all jurisdictions in Canada use the cash basis, and not all of them use the accrual basis.

We, in this Province, use both as a standard of our measurement.

Mr. Speaker, if you were to check with the Institute of Chartered Accountants, no jurisdiction across the country

uses the unfunded portion of liability of its pension, which is the interest. In fact, it might be interesting

for you to know this, we have an unfunded pension liability of $3 billion in this Province and the adjustment on

the interest alone, on that portion of unfunded liability, was in fact, $221 million last year. If we take that

away we would have ended up with a surplus of $5.8 million.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: There is no point in trying to discuss or describe it to you, you don't understand it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am going to have to go to the Minister of Finance, I can see that now.

Let me ask the Minister of Finance, his name is on it as well. I have been beaten up so bad lately, let me try

him. Will he confirm that his own officials, government's own auditors, say that these consolidated

summary financial

statements of the Province are prepared in accordance with the applicable legislation -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: No, I asked him: Will he confirm? He goes on to say, I am quoting directly: ... are based upon information

provided by the various government departments and Crown corporations, boards, and authorities? Will he also confirm

that his own officials said: together they present fairly, in all material aspects, the financial position of the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador for 1999-2000? Minister, while confirming that, on what basis do you and

your government challenge the Comptroller General's findings when they have been confirmed in every detail, every

minute detail, by the Auditor General of the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, in the interest of trying to keep the discussion, the debate, and the level of information

flowing back and forth as simple as we can for everybody to understand, I think it is sufficient to say, to some

extent, that we prepare budgets and we present financial information relative to the position of the Province,

at any given time, against generally accepted accounting principles. There is more than one way to prepare a balance

sheet depending on what you include or exclude on a general, and on an continuing basis, with respect to laying

out your financial position.

The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that we budget year over year on a cash basis. We do not, as a Province,

present a balance sheet that includes all of our assets and liabilities that are extended throughout all of the

Crown corporations and agencies of government. If you want to take all of these assets and liabilities in and

put them on a balance sheet or put them in a financial statement, it would be quite a different proposition than

presenting and reporting to the people of the Province what - on a year to year basis - our financial cash flow

is, as against our expenses.

Mr. Speaker, what we present through our reports is accurate. What we present as a budget is accurate and we operate

within the context of generally accepted accounting principles that lays out, in a fair and balanced way, what

our financial position is in any given time frame on a fiscal basis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What is becoming evident and clear to the people in the Province are the principles that this government operates

by: hide, charade, unaccountable, not transparent, will not release information, all to serve their own interests.

That is all that is going on here!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: What purpose, Minister, to what purpose? To what purpose does it serve for the government to continue

with the charade, to pretend that the real deficit for 1999-2000 is only $33 million in the face of the statements

by the Auditor General, and statements provided to this House by the Comptroller General? Why do you continue

to distort the financial position of the Province when your own employees tell a very, very different story?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the hon. member, the Leader of the Opposition, would describe

generally accepted accounting principles as the equivalent of presenting something in the fashion of a charade.

I think if he has a problem with this government, on behalf of the people of the Province, presenting financial

information in a way that is accepted by the accounting profession - given the type of business we are in, not

being a corporation with a proper loss bottom line, but an entity that is collecting money to provide services

and operates on a cash basis - if he has a problem with that, he should address his concerns to those who lay out

generally accepting accounting principles that we accept as a basis on which to operate.

I would say to the hon. member, there are differences in cash items and non-cash items, in terms of how things

are presented. There is a difference in a cash basis as opposed to an accrual basis when it comes to -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MATTHEWS: There is a difference in a cash basis and an accrual basis of accounting. If the hon. member believes

there is something in those statements -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Minister of Finance to now conclude his answer.

MR. MATTHEWS: If the hon. member is suggesting -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is suggesting or intimating that there is something

fundamentally inaccurate, fraudulent, or incorrect with respect to anything that we have said in the House or that

is presented in the statements, then let him very specifically put it forward and we will address it; but to try

to spin a perception that we are operating and reporting in an inaccurate or in a false manner is beneath, I believe,

the dignity of this House and, I believe, it is beneath the honour that the hon. member really wants to reflect

from his own persona.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. For the record, I want to apologize to the minister. I did

not infer anything, nothing at all. I stated it. The reality is, I did not infer; I said it. I said it Tuesday.

I said it Wednesday, and I will say it to you again today, that purposely this government put out a spin of information

on its April budget saying the real deficit of the Province would only be $33 million. We said at that time it

will be approximately $200 million.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is now confirmed by the Auditor General and by the Comptroller General of the Province. How

can you stand in your place and say otherwise, Minister?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, we stand by the presentation of our budget. We stand by the information as presented

on a somewhat different basis by the Comptroller General of the Province. You are not comparing apples and oranges.

When you get to the point of knowing an apple compares with an apple, and identify the two of them as being one

and the same thing, then you will get the concept that is in play here and you will more clearly understand what

it is that is being laid before you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. They involve an issue on which he and

I have been working on for some time, namely the effort to win approval for a Long Island causeway in my district.

The minister knows it cost about $1 million a year to operate the Long Island ferry and the estimated cost for

construction of a causeway, to replace that ferry, is as low as $10 million. It is sound investment, but the problem

is getting the upfront capital to construct it. Even though the party's seem to agree it makes sense, there has

been much federal-provincial squabbling over who will pay what, and under what program.

I would like to ask the minister, can he tell us whether he has found a solution under some combination of federal

and provincial programs to turn this good idea into reality in the near future?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct the member on one of the figures he mentioned about $1 million

a year to run that service. It is between $500,000 or $600,000 a year to run the service on Long Island. Nevertheless,

if you take into consideration schools and everything else on the island, you may run it up between $700,00 and

$800,000.

Having said that, the committee for the Long Island causeway approached me approximately a year ago and asked for

a meeting. I said: No problem. They came into a meeting, and I explained to them our position on it and they

explained theirs. They asked me if I could come up with some money to try to build a causeway. I said I did not

have the cash, I did not have the money to do it for that kind of capital funding.

They questioned me on the surveys and estimates that we had done. I told them it was over $15 million. Plus,

they wanted an estimate done; so I told them to go back, I was not providing any money to do any estimates on the

causeway. They went back and put together some money to do it themselves. They came back to me after and told

me that they had it done. They said it would cost between $10 million and $12 million. I said I had no funds

to do it. I told them that if the feds came up with at least 80 per cent of the funding, regardless of what it

was, somewhere between the $10 million, $15 million or $16 million mark, that I would revisit the project.

I never, ever said that I would provide funding for it. I left the people with that information. I left that

information for them to take to their federal member at the time, and told them that if they came up with 80 per

cent of the funding that I would revisit the project, nothing more.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister knows, as well as I do, that Mr. Baker, during the last eight months and just before the election,

was trying to make contact with his office to show where he could supply 80 per cent of the $10 million, or more.

For a 20 per cent investment of $2 million, this Province could alleviate the problems of the people of Long Island

by providing that causeway and eliminating one ferry where you could save - yes, maybe not $1 million a year but

close to it at times. Your officials have told the causeway committee that it could cost up to $1 million a year,

at times. That came from the causeway committee, Minister.

Mr. Baker did tell me personally, and he told the media before the election, that he had his 80 per cent, if he

could get co-operation from the minister of the Province to come up with their 20 per cent. A 20 per cent investment

sounds like a good idea to me.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, do you foresee having a meeting with Mr. Baker in the near future? If not Mr. Baker, do

you foresee having a meeting with Mr. Tobin, who also was out and met with the causeway committee and promised

that this causeway is a doable deal, when he was the Premier of this Province? What is the change in the attitude

and in the minds of this government now?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I had no request from Mr. Baker to meet with me. I had a request from the Long Island

Causeway Committee to arrange a meeting with Mr. Baker. I did just that. I offered him - the Friday before the

Federation of Municipalities meetings in Gander - I offered all that weekend at the Federation of Municipalities

meetings in Gander, and all the next week or any day thereafter. I have not had that call.

With regard to 80 per cent, I told the people at the Humber joint council meeting in Deer Lake, one time last year

- and I also referred to this particular project as well, because there were some concerns about the La Scie highway

at the time, and I was told by the federal member that: Oh, we got the money to do it.

Well, I issued a challenge that day to the federal member, that if he came up with his 80 per cent by dinnertime,

I would have mine by suppertime, and I would issue that same challenge today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, do you not agree that you should be taking the initiative to make sure that this 20 per cent

invested by the Province is a good idea to save the taxpayers of this Province almost a million dollars a year

for many years to come?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asks, does the minister think it is worth spending 20 per cent of this

project? I do not operate the contracts. I do not operate any piece of capital, whether it is roads, ferries,

aircraft, or anything else in my department. Based on 20 per cent of what? Twenty per cent of nothing. Twenty

per cent of $200 million is big bucks. It is my budget for two years.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Twenty per cent of whatever was in that agreement.

I told the feds at the time, and right at the meeting, I told the Long Island Causeway Committee meeting when

they came in to meet with me: You acquire help through the federal government to get 80 per cent and I will revisit

the project.

Now, if it got up over $20 million, $21 million or $25 million then it would not be viable, but within the $10

million, $15 million mark, I said that if you come up with the money I would revisit the project. That challenge

stands today.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr .Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Education. The Department of Education has a policy of replacing only

10 per cent of textbooks issued each year to students in our schools. Now, teachers and students are complaining

about the condition of the books. They are marked up and they are ripped up. Many times they are marked with

obscenities and issued to children in primary and elementary schools.

Has the minister heard these complaints, and is he prepared to do something about the situation so that our students

have decent textbooks which will give them a positive attitude towards education?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, to her very specific question of, have I heard regarding these complaints? No. The

answer is: I have not had any representation any time since I have been responsible for the Department of Education,

with respect to either the level of replacing books or the quality and the condition which books are in. If books

are being circulated or recirculated, and have obscenities or inappropriate language on them, that is certainly

an administrative matter that I am sure the school principals, if it came to their attention, would deal with.

In terms of quantity of material being available, or the

schedule upon which we replace old books with new materials,

I have not had any complaints. If there is an issue with respect to that, I would expect to hear from either the

NLTA or the NLSTA, or even my officials within the department.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr .Speaker.

I have with me today, a textbook that was handed out to a Grade VI student. Here it is, right here, marked with

obscenities. This is a book that was issued. Parents, teachers and students have been complaining to the Department

of Education about this. I want to know when the government is going to get serious. If you have not heard it,

your predecessor has heard it. This has been an ongoing problem for ten years. When are you going to get serious

about the education of the children in our Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I would make two comments. Number one, it is totally and completely unacceptable to

us as government, to me as minister, to have any type of book circulating among students that has language or that

has obscenities on it. That is unfortunate, . I regret to hear that, and I can tell you now that I will take

it up with my officials to ask if, in fact, this is an ongoing and serious problem such that it needs to be addressed.

With respect to the millions of books that we have in our system throughout all our schools, the millions of books

we have that are used year over year, if the hon. member is suggesting that this is representative of the material

that is out there -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MATTHEWS: If that is what she is suggesting, I would ask the hon. member, in fairness to the issue - because

it is an important issue, it is a serious issue - to provide to me not one book that can be held up in the House

of Assembly -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, if I may finish the answer.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. MATTHEWS: If that book, or those two books, are representative of the millions of books that are there, I would

ask the hon. member to bring me some substantive demonstration and affirmation that is the case and I will be the

first to take under consideration how we should address the issue.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. MATTHEWS: I believe, on balance, that many of the books that are circulating in the system are in reasonably

good shape and get the job done. If that is not the case, I believe I would have heard from others long before

now.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr .Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Finance. It is very cold outside today, and the high cost of home heating is

a strenuous, obvious and increasing burden to seniors in this Province, to low income people in this Province,

and to pensioners such as those who were protesting out here today who have not received an increase in eleven

years from this government.

The federal government has made a modest move to provide some relief to people in this country who are in receipt

of the GST rebate. This is the minister's last opportunity before Christmas to respond to this growing heartfelt

concern and request on behalf of the people of this Province to provide some relief. Will the Minister announce

now that his government will participate in a rebate program to the people of this Province of a portion of the

15 per cent that this minister collects on each and every dollar of home heating fuel or electricity used for home

heat in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The issue that the hon. member raises is a very serious and important issue. It is one that we have thought a

lot about over the last year-and-a-half, two years with the increase in fuel prices, particularly for home heating

oil. I am very specific when I refer to home heating oil because it is something that affects everybody in a more

general way than diesel, or even gasoline.

We have been looking at the fluctuations in the price of the product. We have seen the price of furnace oil go

up. During the last few weeks we have seen the price of gasoline go down a little. We have not seen that reflected

in furnace heating oil prices, yet. We are hopeful that we will see some decreases in the prices of furnace oil,

but I have to be honest, I am not confident that in the short-haul we will see a serious improvement in the price

of furnace heating oil.

I say to the hon. member, yes it is a concern of mine. Yes, it is a concern of this government. Yes, I am telling

you today that I am seriously considering what, if anything, by way of programming we should be entertaining, looking

at or propositioning to ourselves in consideration of the people who are affected by this furnace oil problem.

At what point I come to a conclusion as to some recommendations to Cabinet, I will be moving to Cabinet and asking

for a consideration of some sort of a relief program. I believe it is time we move in that direction and I am

prepared to make that commitment to the people of the Province today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased today to table copies of the performance contracts and the annual work plan reports of the twenty

Regional Economic Development Boards in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to table the annual report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Public

Service Commission for the year 1999-2000.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have the honour today to present the annual report of the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission for the year ended

March 31, 2000.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee - the best Public Accounts Committee in Canada, according to the Premier.

I present today the report of the Standing Committee of Public Accounts on Department of Education -

PREMIER TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TULK: Let me just say, it was the best Public Accounts Committee in Canada.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Premier: It still is.

The report of the Standing Committee of Public Accounts on the Department of Education transfer of school board

assets and liabilities; the Avalon West School Board.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition signed by over 2,000 people. This petition is asking government to direct the

Western Health Care Corporation to set aside their three-year plan. I will read the prayer of the petition that

illustrates quite accurately what the people on the West Coast of this Province want under the Western Health Care

Corporation.

WHEREAS the government of this Province, in its capacity as the funding agent for the Western Health Care Corporation,

hereinafter referred to as, the Corporation, has directed the Corporation to recover its $9.1 million debts; and

WHEREAS the Corporation in its three-year action plan has proposed to accomplish this by closing beds, laying off

health care workers, shortening hospital stays and privatizing services currently provided by employees of the

Corporation;

THEREFORE let it be known that your petitioners request that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador provide

the funding needed to cover Western Health Care Corporation's $9.1 million deficit and direct the Corporation to

maintain its current number of open beds, staffing levels, and length of hospital stay; and

FURTHERMORE the petitioners request that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador direct the Corporation to

refrain from privatizing services currently provided by its employees.

Mr. Speaker, 2,004 people have signed this. They know full well what is happening in health care in our Province.

Since 1989 there have been 1,300 beds closed in this Province. In the last couple of years alone there have been

several hundred beds closed in this Province. There are people out there today - I am not exaggerating - who have

died waiting for services because the waiting period was too long. In the past I have provided to this House and

made references - I have provided names in the public forum. Their families have contacted me. Many families

are out there pursuing legal channels. There are numerous law suits out there. There are dozens and dozens of

section 4 of the Highway Traffic Act to remove the requirement for officials of the division to be appointed

by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council."

We do not have many concerns with that. We discussed it ourselves. Certainly, we have no major concern with clause

1 of the bill being repealed and substituted with

section 4 of the Highway Traffic Act.

"Clause 2 of the Bill would add

section 42.1 to

Part III of the Act to provide an exception in that Part to

the common law rule that before a more severe penalty can be imposed for a second offence, that offence must be

committed after the first conviction."

While we understand that everybody is innocent until proven guilty, we understand where this piece of legislation

is coming from. While we have raised concerns earlier on with parts of this legislation, we understand what, I

guess, the minister is trying to do here in relation to bringing this forward. When a person is brought before

the courts of the Province for any reason or other, that they have the opportunity to a fair trial, that they have

an opportunity to tell their side of the story, that they have, as we say here in Newfoundland, their day in court.

We, certainly, do not have a major problem with that. We think, along with most people here in the Province,

that you are innocent until proven guilty, and if you are before the courts on a certain motion that you should

have the opportunity to have your say and to debate and, certainly, to put your best foot forward in whatever the

case may be that is before the court. In doing that, while a second offence may occur during that time, again,

we believe here in democracy that the person who is found or brought before the court, once again, would have the

opportunity to state their case and have their day in court.

What we understand on this side of the House, the reason for clause 2 of the bill adding

section 42.1 to

Part III

of the act, is to provide an exception in that part to the common law rule that before a more severe penalty can

be imposed for a second offence, that offence must be committed after the first conviction. We believe that is

the purpose of the bill has put forward. Once again, we believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty

and everybody should have the opportunity to step forward in court.

Another part of the bill that we have before the House today is: "Clauses 3 to 11 of the Bill would replace

the references to the sequence of offences in

Part III of the Act with references to the sequence of convictions

and update the references to sections of the Criminal Code."

Again, we do not have any problem with that. We understand where that is coming from. We agree also, from a point

in relation to impaired driving in the Province, that there are many people who have some major concerns, and rightly

so. We agree that many lives and many families have been destroyed on both sides of the equation. It is not always

on one side of an equation. On both sides of the equation many families and lives have been destroyed or have

been marred for life because of impaired driving in our Province; not only in our Province, but indeed across the

country and throughout the world.

Certainly, any piece of legislation that comes before the House of Assembly that would do anything in any way to

help curb the concern of impaired drivers, to curb the concern of people out there who are affected by impaired

drivers, is something of which this side of the House is fully supportive.

We understand that there are many groups and organizations, including MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, including

other groups, that have been pushing for this type of legislation and have been asking for harder rules and regulations

and tougher guidelines and tougher laws due to the fact, as I said before, that many lives have been destroyed

because of drinking and driving. Certainly, a piece of legislation that comes before the House that does anything

to assist that, or does anything to improve that, is something that we can support.

We have to ask ourselves many times, as a society - it is not socially accepted any more, and it should not be

legally accepted any more, that anybody would be allowed to partake in drinking and driving. In most cases we

luck out and do not get into a major concern, but we hear story after story after story in this Province where

we have situations that have caused many headaches and heartaches for a lot of people. As the Opposition in the

House of Assembly, we have no problem whatsoever in supporting a piece of legislation that would do anything against

that.

Again, there is no piece of legislation that is perfect. There are always ways to improve the highways in our

Province, and it does not necessarily have to be a piece of legislation to improve our highways. I would like

for you to bear with me for a moment, if you would, as I talk about some of the highways in the Province, and certainly

some of the ones that are not, as far as I am concerned, acceptable by today's standards, and that have caused

some concerns. There are many of those roads throughout the Province.

One of my colleagues, earlier today, talked about over 900 kilometers of roads in the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador that is yet unpaved. Especially at this time of the year, this causes some grave concerns for people.

We are in the year 2000, and we are moved into the new millennium. It is an opportunity for us to put forward

the concerns we have, as members of this Legislature, and put forward the concerns we have as individuals who are

out on the highways of the Province, traveling around the Province day in and day out. We have an opportunity

to stand here today and do something - anything - that would improve the highway system of the Province.

I think we have to look seriously at a federal-provincial infrastructure agreement that would bring funding to

the Province. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation would, in turn, then be able to put money into

the roads in the Province to assist in any way he can in improving the driving conditions of the Province and therefore,

to all intents and purposes, improve the highways of the Province for every person on it.

There are a lot of safety issues here. The piece of legislation we have today deals with one of those what we

would call very serious situations. That is the fact that there are people who drink and drive on our highways.

That is a very serious situation, and not one to be undermined in any way, shape or form. At the same time, there

are other things that we need to do in this Province to improve the system of highways that we have so that people

are safe while they are on the highways. I do not necessary mean now, talking about drinking and driving; I am

just talking about regular driving on the highways. You may not have anybody coming at you or behind you who has

anything to do with alcohol, but it is just the condition of the highways that cause us problems. It is certainly

something has been raised here in the House and will continue to be raised.

I am pleased today to have the opportunity to stand and support this piece of legislation and to say that we, on

this side of the House, once again have no problem in supporting a piece of legislation that does anything for

the - because, the number one concern that we all have, I am sure, as Members of the House of Assembly, is the

safety of people on our highways. Whether that is filling in potholes, putting up guardrails, improving the highways,

paving, none of it compares to this piece of legislation here today. The importance of a piece of legislation

here that would do anything to improve the highways in our Province and make them safe is something that this side

of the House of Assembly is pleased to support.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to close off my comments by saying that while this piece of legislation addresses a major

concern in the Province, there are plenty of opportunities by this government, if they want to, to improve the

highways in this Province. Therefore, hopefully over the next little while, into the next year, we will, as I

touched on earlier, be successful enough in getting a federal-provincial infrastructure agreement that will address

some of these concerns in the Province, that will make our highways safe, comfortable for people to drive on, where

they will not feel, in any way, shape or form, that they are in any danger.

With that, I am pleased to say that we, on this side of the House, support Bill 26,

An Act To Amend The Highway

Traffic Act, and hopefully that future progressive legislation will come forward in the House to address some of

the concerns I have raised today, and certainly to address some of the concerns that the groups, the parents, the

people of this Province have raised, the people who have been affected by drinking and driving in this Province.

It is a piece of legislation that we support.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its

title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill 26)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 7, third reading of a bill,

An Act To Amend The Services Charges Act. (Bill 40)

MR. SPEAKER: Order 7.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I stand in my place today to say a few words on third reading of Bill 40,

An Act To Amend The Services

Charges Act. This bill basically, as I have said in the past, in the previous readings, is housekeeping to a certain

extent, but it is a fairly important piece of legislation, albeit short in content but important in what it is

saying.

Again, as in previous bills, and I have said so many times in this House of Assembly, oftentimes when we bring

legislation to the House and try to rush it through the House of Assembly, sometimes things are omitted, mistakes

are made. Again, right in the bill itself, it says, "This provision was inadvertently omitted from amendments

stemming from the Regulatory Reform Project."

I remember when that was before the House of Assembly. There were many, many changes made to the legislation,

and at the time we said: What is going to be missed? What is going to be omitted? What is going to be in there

that should not be in there, and what have you? We constantly see legislation come to this House of Assembly because

of that attitude. This is one of those, and it is a fairly important piece of legislation, as I said.

This amendment also has an impact upon the fees that are being charged under the Services Charges Act, which were

addressed under the Condominium Act. The Condominium Act - actually, we see now, with respect to the fees, this

legislation will change the fees from thousands of dollars down to hundreds of dollars. Of course, that is always

a positive thing, when we have less fees to be charged to the public for whatever reason.

We see now, in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, more people purchasing condominiums. I have seen more

of it myself, in recent years, with respect to seniors in particular and younger retirees who want to have a different

style of life. Most of the condominiums that I am aware of are in and around central St. John's. If they purchase

these condominiums - I remember seeing an individual who worked with one of the local TV stations, on the news

one night, who decided to buy a condominium downtown for a different style of life, where he would not have to

have an automobile, he would not have the cost of gas which is so high today, insurance costs. If you wanted to

travel in and around St. John's, you had the taxis and the busing system, the Metrobus. This is all important

to those individuals, especially the seniors who are usually on a fixed income with their pensions and what have

you.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know.

The Minister of Government Services and Lands says he gave the Opposition House Leader a

schedule of fees. As

I said to the minister - I do not know if he heard - actually, the fees are reduced from thousands of dollars to

hundreds of dollars. Again, I commented on that and said it was a positive thing.

As I said, it is a short but serious piece of legislation for the people involved. Some people would never give

a hoot about this piece of legislation; but the people now, as I said, the young retirees and the seniors, are

going more towards condos in Newfoundland and Labrador. We often hear of the condos down in the States, down in

Florida and what have you, but now people are starting to use these as their main home in Newfoundland and Labrador,

particularly in and around St. John's.

In my previous life, I suppose, before I got into politics, I was in a business of my own. We used to be involved

with surveying, of course, and the regulations with respect to condominiums and the layout of condominiums was

quite detailed. Any time that we make changes to those acts, those rules and regulations, there are very serious

concerns.

We discussed this a fair bit previously, so I really do not see much more that we can say on this bill, other than

we support it. We see no problems with it.

Madam Speaker, my comments are concluded. I don't know if anybody on this side of the House would want to add

a few words. The Opposition House Leader might want to say a few words on this; I am not quite sure.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I have just a few very brief comments on that bill. I spoke with the minister, too. I think the fees vary up

to several thousand dollars, I understand, under the current structure. Now, I think, depending on the situation

and size, anywhere from $150 to a maximum of $600, if I remember correctly, in our Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes. That is the number of condos, the number of units system, right? That is going to be way cheaper

and, in comparison with other provinces, we are right in the ball game. Some were a bit cheaper but others were

a little more expensive. We are right up in the lead, in the top part of the pack on that. I think that is positive

because there was really a double hit occurring. There were extra costs occurring there.

With reference to that, certainly that is why I think not only with the example here, but I guess looking at a

parallel situation too, people out there today - take health care, for example. Those personal home care owners

in different parts are hit with different taxes. Some charge them a certain business property tax that is extremely

high, and they really have no margins. They can hardly function. I know the Member for Topsail has some in his

district. Some municipalities really cannot afford, under the structure, to pay at all, and others are down at

a very modest level.

We see discrepancies. This would be across provinces here, and I think we have to look at realistic amounts.

It is indicative to have a unit number, I think, reflective in the fee there. That is certainly -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: The rest of the country? Yes, and I think the

schedule that the minister provided showed that we

are very competitive now. So, like my colleague, the Member for Cape St. Francis, we certainly support this particular

bill,

An Act To Amend The Trustee Act.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Services Charges Act," read a third, ordered passed and its title

be as on the Order Paper. (Bill 40)

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Order 3, third reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Smoke-Free Environment Act." (Bill 38)

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I had some brief comments earlier on this particular bill. Again, I think it is important and I feel an obligation

to have a few comments again at this reading of the bill,

An Act To Amend The Smoke-Free Environment Act.

In this particular bill, as is stated in the Explanatory Notes and subsequent clauses, prohibits smoking in food

establishments in public places. I went out to lunch today in a restaurant, and they come up and ask you: smoking

or non-smoking? I always say non-smoking. I sat down in the section, and just next to it they were smoking.

I do not think it should be allowed. Not only for youth should it be established; it should not be permitted.

I am not an advocate for smoking. In fact, I am a strong advocate against smoking in public places. Anybody who

has known me over the years knows that. In school, with young school kids in our high schools, it is something

we stress very strongly. As a science teacher - actually, there used to be, and I do not even know if they are

in the curriculum, what is there right now. I am a little removed from that. I am not education critic, but I

guess

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	2000-12-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	2000-12-14
Language	en
Format	htm
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	81433c9618af62369471834663cfd14595b2feb4

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (htm).