Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 100 (28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-100

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 9:3 0 o'clock, Friday, April 7, 196 7 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. :MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. Notices of Motion. Introduction of Bills. 2353 HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs)( Cypress) introduced Bill No. 111,

an Act to amend The Local Government Districts Act, and Bill No. 115,

an Act to amend The Municipal Act. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I wonder if I might direct the attention of the Honourable Members to the gallery on my left where we have 28 students from the Robert H. Smith School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. V. Doe and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Co=erce. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you all here today. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Highways, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolutions standing in my name and in the name of the Minister of Education. :MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. :MR . GILD AS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition)(Ste . Rose): Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to make a case this morning on this, but I want to serve notice that when the Committee on Rules meets again, I would hope that we will look at this whole matter on Private Members business and government business, because here is an example where we had agreed that.this morning we would be dealing for the first hour and a half with Private Members business and yet we are faced with Committee of the Whole with three major resolutions of government business, and I think that this is not the intent of Private Members Day.

As I said I will not object today, but I want to serve clear notice that when we reach rules on this, this is the type of thing which I think we should change. Where it 's Private Members Day it should be clear that we go either into Private Members bills or into resolutions, with no intervening govern ment business ahead of it. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier)(Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I suppose it's in order to speak on the point of order raised.

Certainly there will be no objection to the Committee discussing this, but I myself believe that until we reach the Orders of the Day we are not on Private Members business or any of the regular business of the House, and that it has been long considered to be well and advisedly established that before the Orders of the Day the introduction of bills should take the place that it occupies on the Order Paper, and I must say that, speaking for myself, I'll require some pretty extensive argument before it will convince me that a change would be desirable. :MR . DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (Lakeside): .Mr.

Speaker, speaking on the point of order or on the motion, either one, I think this is a perfectly unreasonable stand for the First Minister to take, particularly in view of the unreasonable rules that the government has already imposed upon us. :MR . ROBLIN: They were accepted by unanimous consent. MR. CAMPBELL: They were not by unanimous consent. :MR . ROBLIN: Yes they were. :MR . CAMPBELL: I have the minutes and I have the facts recorded that I opposed them at every stage, every stage of the minutes. My honourable friend can shake his head all that he wishes but I know what happened.

I opposed the Private Members part; I opposed the 80 hours in Supply; and now, now we are starting to see where we are left with this kind of thin�. With Private Members business cut down the way it has been, we still put government business on in front of it, and it's just ridiculous to say that this is a fair way to conduct the business of this House, particularly in view of an arrangement that has been made where only an hour and a half has been allotted to Private Members business this morning .. And �hen the govern ment would have the effrontery ,. Mr. Speaker, to mov�a into government business after an

2354 April 7, 1967 (MR. CAMPBELL, cont'd) .. ... undertaking that Pri vate Members business would come first; they would have the effr ontery to, in violation of that agreement, to move into government business that could take, could easily take a lot of time. MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, I take exception to the language of my honourable friend. To describe the conduct of the government as effr ontery is, in my mind, quite unjustified. Every member of this House knows very well what the order of business is before the Orders of the Day are reac hed.

There was absolutely no indication at any time that we were going to make any change in the established regulation and proced ure of this House with respect to routine proceed ings at any time, and I regard it as,well quite unjustified of the honourable member to accuse us of bad faith which is what he is doing by saying that we agreed to change this matter in the way that he suggests. No such agreement was ever made. Nothing was ever suggested of that account.

My honourable friend knows that that's not the case and he also knows that re gardle ss of what he said in the committee, the ru le s that we are operating under now were received by all parties in this House - all parties in this House. It wasn't imposed by the government; it was agreed to. And he may say what he likes about what he said in co=ittee and he may talk about effrontery all he likes, but I think that his observation is quite unjustified and is typical of the attitude that he is displaying these days. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr .

Chairman, I'll now speak on the point of order and I'll say that I repeat that this is effrontery by the government, that it's a violation of the undertaking that was given yesterday, because if my honourable friend is right, and I absolve the clerks of blame if the rules of the House require that the Order Paper be shown in this way, but I cer tainly say --(Interje ction)-- I• know a lot more in the 45 years than my honourable friend is inclined to give me credit for, and one of the things that has come out of the 45 years .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please . Order please .

I wonder if there is anything to be gained from continuing this discussion. The remarks that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition, note will of course be taken of his remarks, and I wonder if this might not be discussed in committee and some conclusion arrived at at that particula r time without going furthe r. MR .

CAMPBELL: Except that I would want to complete the point that I was making when the Honourable the Attorney-General interrupted me, and the First Minister, and that is that even if the rules required that it be shown this way, there is no reason why the government can't live up to the arrangement that it made yesterda y and say that they would move on to Pr ivate Members business, and this is the arrangement that was made yesterday. MR . ROBLIN: It was not. MR. CAMPBELL: It was so - that the first hour and a half would be Pr ivate Members business.

Now I'm not even interested in the particular Pr ivate Members business but I am intere sted in the arrangements that are made being adhered to, and those were the arrange ments, Mr. Speaker. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radi sson): Mr. Speaker, if I may, just on the point of order. I understand that the Leader of the Liberal Party raised an objection and suggested that he was prepared to proceed with the business of the House this morning and that the matter would be raised when the co=ittee on the conduct of the business of the House considers the whole matter.

Now I respect fully suggest, Mr . Speaker, in all due respect to the First Minister, the Attorney-General and the Member for Lakeside, the argument will not achieve anything. We are wasting time insofar as getting into the business of the House is concerned, and I suggest it cease and we will take the matter up when the Committee .•. MR . SPEAKER: I appeal to the good will of the House on this particular occasion in order that we might proceed with the business of the House. Are you re ady for the question? Order please . I heard no res ponse to my appeal to the House. Are you re ady for the question?

MR , SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House re solved itself into Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair . COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CARROLL: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resol utions, rec ommends them to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: The res olution before the Committee is: Re solved that it is expedient

April 7, 196 7 2355 (MR. CHAIRMAN, cont'd) ...•• to bring in a measure to amend The Social Allowances Act by providing, among other matters, that a municipality may carry out projects of work activities and provide welfare services, the costs of which may be included in the costs incurred by the municipality in providing indigent relief to which the government contribut es . MR. CARHOLL: Mr. Chairman, the explanation is very short .

This merely spells out more clearly that the work activity programs and welfare services provided by municipalities and others will be cqnsidered as indigent relief and thereby be shareable with the Government of Canada tmder the Canada Assistance Plan. We think that this should help to tidy up our statute and make su,re that it is compatible with the new federal legislation and regulatio ns . Some of the

definitions that are used in here are taken directly from the federal statute and we think it just is a neat and tidy way of doing it. MR . T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr .

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would advise us of what the definition of "work activities" comprises, 'because my understan ding was that there was a recent meeting between members of your department and certain municipal officials, and arisin g out of that meeting it became quite apparent that the work activities that you were envisaging under this particular Order are not the same type of work activities as the municipalities were envisaging, and we had quite a discussion on that during part of the estimates when the Honourable Member for Lakeside complimented the government in going to include into its legislation work activities, but my understanding is now that the work activities that you envisage under this legislation are work activities which are in the nature of rehabilitation programs and they do not include the ordinary work activities which muni cipalities today are involved in, namely, putting an able-bodied man who is in receipt of relief into some of the Public Works departments and trying to work out the relief through services rendered, but this program you have here does not include that type of activity, and I would like to have an explanation from the Minister as to what type of activity is included in the projects of work activities you refer to here .

MR . JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, I'minterested in this resol ution. Are we in any way going to decentralize the activities of the Department through the muni cipalities? Is this something new in its way or is it just going to provide some way as already pointed out by the Honourable Member for Selkirk . I'm interested to know more of the details of this. MR. PAULLEY: Mr .

Chairman, I'd like to ask my honourable friend whether or not this is similar to a resolution that was introduced a year ago pertaining to work activity and the correla tion of municipalities in a program on which we had a considerable discussion; and is it related to the incident of that time and due to the deferring of the passage of the Canada Assistance Plan it wasn't able to be proceeded with, and is this more or less to tidy up insofar as the proclamation that was contained in, I believe, last Saturday's Gazette in respect of the previous Act?

Is it all connected, and if it is then I review what was said a year ago without taking time of the Committee. But there's one objection I do wish to register, Mr. Chairman, is the continuation of the term 'indigent relief ' . I think this matter has been considered in the past in the House and I think that it's about time that we got away from the use of the word 'indigent'. It has a connotation I don't think that is proper and fitting in these days anyway and I'd suggest to the Minister that the wording be changed. MR. CARROLL: Mr .

Chairman, this is merely to try and clarify the legislation that was passed last year adding some

definitions to it to make sure that it is compatible with the Federal Statute,, We 're not attempting here to pass along to municipalities any greater responsibilities than what they've had in the past . It is an attempt, however, to be able to claim for more of the services that are being provided by municipalities in the way of service to indigent people .

With respect to the name of 'indigent relief ' I'd be very happy to look at this again possibly in Committee to see whether there is some other terminology that can be used that will distinguish between the kind of assistance that's given by the province and the kind of assistance that's being given by municipalities. It may be possible to get some other term that would be less offensive to the dignity of people who find themselves having to take assistance.

With respect to work activity projects I think we can only try to make a fairly broad definition because we don't know the kind of activities that the Federal Government are going to appro ve . While they did pass the Canada Assistance Act last July, July 7th I believe, they still haven't procla imed re gulations dealing with work activity projects so of nece ssity our reference to work activity projects here must be broa d because we don't know at this stage the

2356 April 7, 1967 (MR. CARROLL, cont'd) .•.•. kind of projects that will be approved by the Federal Govern ment. It will certainly take into account, we think, such things as workshops, the kind that are run at Selkirk, of the kind that are being run by the Society for Crippled Children and Adults, activities of that kind that give skill to people to help to rehabilitate. I think these definitely will be included, the kind that will rehabilitate, the kind that may be preventive.

We 're not sure that it will take care of the work activity program of the kind that is mentioned by the Member for Selkirk which I would consider the winter works kind of activity without necessarily restricting it to the winter months. I think this is the kind of thing that is being asked for here. I 'm not sure at the moment whether the federal regulations will embrace this kind of a program or not. If it does then I would think that the present changes will enable us to cover this under our regulations and approve that kind of program as well. MR.

HILLHOUSE: How soon do you expect to receive information from the Federal Government as to what is comprised in their definition of work activities? MR . CARROLL: I wish I could say 'soon', I really have no idea. MR. HILLHOUSE: Is it advisable to bring in this legislation until we know what we're voting on? MR . CARROLL: Well if we want to be able to recover any money from Ottawa with respect to work activity programs we '11 have to make sure that whatever we've got here is compatible with what they're likely to bring in.

If you would be content to deny us any recovery during the next twelve months until we find out what they're going to do, I would hope that their regulations might be available within a month or so. I don't know. But if it were and our legislation didn't permit us to take advantage of that then we would be the losers here in Manitoba and our people would be the losers who might be able to benefit from this kind of program. MR .

HILLHOUSE: It isn't my intention to deny you the right of recovering anything. from the Federal Government but it seems to me though that this is a program which has to be worked out in co-operation between the Government of Manitoba, the Government of Canada and the Municip!jl Corporations here, and I think the municipal· corporations, since they are going to be partners in this, should have full knowledge of what they are becoming involved in, and what we 're doing here now is passing legislation, or taking the first step in passing legis lation and we 're going to foist on a municipality something which may not be acceptable to them.

MR . PAULLEY: ... . on this point. Is the legislation for which the Minister is asking authority to bring in the legislation by this resolution, will it be drafted to be compatible with that that's already been passed by the federal authority and will the difference be, and is the holdup at the present time dealing with regulations -- if you can't make the regulations until you receive the copy of the regulations at Ottawa?

If that is the case then of course we don't need to worry about it as long as our legislation is compatible with that of Ottawa in order that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council following that would be able to bring in regulations that are compatible which of course doesn't require the consent of the Legislature� MR. CARROLL: Yes, Mr . Chairman, I think that's a good explanation. This is designing our legislation to be compatible with what the Federal Government have already passed.

We 're not attempting in this way to foist anything on the municipalities; we 're just opening up new opportunities to municipalities who wish to take advantage of work activity programs and other welfare services that will enable them to make larger recoveries for people that they're serving and for services that are already being provided by them in many cases. MR . SIDNEY GREEN (Inkster): Mr.

Chairman, I'd like. to ask the Minister whether it is the intention of this resolution that the municipal councils will be able tP get. work done in exchange for welfare relief and whether the payment for work would then be the amount that a person receives on welfare, and if so would this not result in merely a reduction in the wages that a municipality would ordinarily have to pay to get this work done? . MR. CARROLL: At the present time I'm not sure whether this sort of thing is possible It may be that it will just be workshop kind of programs where people learn skills while they're doing work.

I don't know yet because the federal regulations don 't tell us. I see the conpern that you have that the city public works department may be fil!e,d with fqrmer indigent relief cases ancj thereby cut down on their present staff. I would think that thi� wquld not be the case although there might be .otheractivities that are not being done, fo.r .instanpe by the .City of Winnipeg. today. in terms of cleaning up, painting up progr.ams ·\V her�. t:IJ.ey .·might use

April 7, 1967 2357 (MR . CARROLL, cont'd) · • · · · people who would normally be on relief , who would be learning the skills of painting or decora ting or whatever and this kind of activity may qualify. We would hope it would. MR. GREEN: I want to make it clear that I'm not rea lly c:oncerned with the cutting down of staff. What I'm concerned is that work should not be done fo:r relief wages when to get that work done under ordinary circum stances they''d have to pay wages let's say as determined by collective agreeme nt .

So although that's a problem it wasn't the problem that I expressed that there'd be a transfer of staff from present staff to indigent staff. I'm worried about bringing the wage rate down by having work done for that kind of wage. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, there's one other point that I would like to get information on. Are we through the legislation that will be coming about go:lng to spend extra money in Manitoba for this purpo se? Is there extra money provided in the estimates for this? Or are we just making arrangeme nts which would enable us to accept federal monies and pass these on to municipalitie s? MR .

CARROLL: I think primarily what the changes in le!�islation are doing here is giving us access to the Federal Treasury for certain programs that we aren't sure we 're able to share with them on at the present time . This just enables us to spell out more clearly the kind of services for which we will be able to claim from the Federal Treasury including work activity programs. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I'm curious as to how thi.s legislation is coming about. Is this as a re sult of consultation between the Pr ovince of Manitoba and the Federal Govern ment?

Have there been meetings on this and have they all the way along built up the plan which the government intends to follow? MR. CARROLL: I can't say that there have been specific meetings dealing with legis lation, but at the time that we brought in certa in changes to our statute last year anticipating the Canada Assistance Plan we didn't know what their legislation was going to say.

We do know what their legislation says at this time; we 're changing our legislation to make sure that our le gislation fits with theirs and that we are able to take max:lmum advantage of the sharing of our programs with the Government of Canada. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, you know the legislation Ottawa is bring ing down then? I thought a few moments ago the Minister had indicated he didn't know. MR. CARROLL: We know the legislation; we don't know anything about the work activity progra m for wh:lch the Member for Selkirk wanted specific information .

We don't know what kind of work activities they're going to approve at the present time -- by regulation. MR . MOLGAT: I gather then that this has been in consuUation with Ottawa that the matter has developed. Now what consultation has there been between this government and the municipalities, because the municipalities are the ones who are going to be obviously involved in doing this . Has the Minister had consultations with the municipalities? Has this been built up in co-operation with them? MR , CARROLL: The consultation with the Government of Canada I think started about the end of December .

We just got the draft regulations about the end of January so we re ally can't say that we've been very close to Ottawa in the development of their program. We started our communications with the municipalities again in, I think, mid-January after we got the draft regulations from Ottawa and we knew what their program was going to involve. MR. HILLHOUSE: In the draft regulations didn't they define what their work project activities would be? MR, CARROLL: I'm sorry I missed that question, Mr. Chairman. MR . HILLHOUSE: You refer to the dr aft reg ulations that you got from Ottawa.

In those draft regulations that you got from Ottawa wasn't the definition of 'work activities' defined there? --(Interjection)-- And no parti cular s given of it? Well do you mean to say that neither you nor the work ers in your Department know the types of work activities that are going to be appro ved by Ottawa? MR . CARROLL: That's right . MR.

SAUL MILLER (Seven Oaks): I'm concerned about another aspect of this and to me it seems that in view of the federal decision and the announeement from the Federal Government and this government that the Federal Government will be taking over the cost of retra ining and training for adults who are in the labour force, :lt seems to me that -- I can't see why the municipalities are involved in this at all. Because the suggestion here is that the Pro vincial Government will of course pick up part of the cost as if this were a welfare cost and

2358 April 7, 1967 (MR. MILLER, cont 'd) .... . the Pro vincial Government would pick up its portion. From this I can only gather therefore that the municipality will be saddled with part of the cost.

Now it's true the municipality may be paying welfare to an individual but it's a stra ight welfare payment and the province picks up 60 percent of it, but if they're going to go into work shop activities or any training, formal training of any kind, then obviously the program in the municipalities has to be enlarged if they don't have any and will have to be started from nothing really, so that the municipalities will be saddled with a new cost, a cost of setting up program s, a cost of starting programs and having the teachers of the staff to institute such programs, people in charge of it .

These are not rec overable in the normal course of events. I am concerned that the municipalities are asked in any way to participate in any retraining program whatsoever. Surely this is a provincial and a federal res ponsibility, not a municipal re sponsibility. So that I would like some clarification on why the municipalities are bro ught into this at all, if this isn't a stra ight -- if the municipality simply cannot use a man and pay him and then claim for part of the normal wages from the pro vince. Beyond that I think the municipality shouldn't be asked in any way to get into this type of activity . MR.

LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr . Chairman, I'm still not clear on this. The Minister says that he's had very little consultation with Ottawa if any; he's had none whatsoever with the different municipalities who will be asked to take

part in this. On the other hand we 're told that this is a sharing prog ram and then in answer to the Member from Rhineland, he does admit that there's no money pro vided for this in the estimates. What kind of a dark secret have we got here? I mean, what is it that they 're asking us to approve? The Minister shakes his head. Is it true or isn't it true that he says that we did not approve any sumin the estimates? This is what I thought he answered to the Member from Rhineland . Would you mind answering, please instead of just shaking your head. I don't know what that means. MR.

CARROLL: There's certainly money in the estimates to cover any program that we anticipate under "work activity" or any of these other matter s that are covered within this amendment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Re solution passed .•• MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman , provided the municipality takes advantage of the prog ram that's announced then so far as indigent relief is concerned they will be paying 50 percent of the costs, right? MR. CARROLL: The same arrangement that applie s at the present time. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr . Chairm an, is that arrangement 50 percent? MR. CARROLL: No. MR. CAMPBELL: What is it? -- (Interje ction)-- MR.

CARROLL: The average that the municipalities pay in the Pr ovince of Manitoba is around 35 percent .--(Interje ction)-- The average is 65 percent. MR . HILLHOUSE: You've changed that formula, haven't you ... Social Allowances Act MR . CARROLL: No, it's the same one. MR . CAMPBELL: .. .. revise that then by taking the part that where it exceeds a certa in proportion that the government pays 80 perc ent, but where it's below that proportion the govern ment pays 60 percent . Is that correct? And you have to take in the areas where 80 percent in order to get that average figure that you 're speaking?

Is that correct? MR. CARROLL: That's right . MR . CAMPBELL: A lot of the municipalities, it's 40 percent that they pay, right? MR . CARROLL: We pay 40 percent up to one mill or 80 percent over one mill, whichever is to the advantage of the municipality. ,MR . HILLHOUSE: Under this new legislation what you're going to pay now is 50 percent of the salary of the social worker that has to be hired by municipalities to implement this pro gram, plus of course your share of "indigent" relief - the word that my honourable friend on the left doesn't like. MR .

CHAIRMAN: I would like to draw the attention of members of the House to Beauchesne's Fourth Edition, Page 216, rega rding the object of this resol ution. "The object of the res olution rec ommended by the Cro wn is to give the House a first opportunity to discuss the advisability of making a certa in expenditure. The details of the projected measure are not then disclosed and debate is confined to the res olution which should not be lengthy although care must be taken that the terms used are sufficiently wide to cover the whole of the bill which will be subsequently introd uced."

April 7, 1967 235 9 (MR. CHAIRMAN, cont'd) , .•.. Now gentlemen, when I first came into the House the debate was brief, the Minister introduced the resolution, there was perhaps two or three questions and then the debate took place when you had the bill before, when you saw what you were discussing in the bill at second reading,and I would ask the members of the House to co-operate so that the business of the House can be expedited, and try and keep the debate at this

section of the proceedings as short as possible. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I take it when these resolutions do come into the House that this is the time that we discuss the financial aspects, this is the very reason why the resolutions are brought forward, and when I placed a question to the Honourable Minister as to whether this legislation was there and whether it meant that we would have to pr ovide extra monies through the estimates and whether these were contained in the estimates or whether this was purely a matter of enabling us to get federal monies for this very purpose , and he answered me in part .

Now I find out later on that there are monies in tbe estimates that we have been passing for this year for this purpose, so I think he should have given me a fuller answer in the first place. But, Mr. Chairman, as I pointed out that this is the time to discuss the financial aspect of this legislation . MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr . Chairman, we were asked to resolve that "it be expedient to bring in a measure." Now how can we as members of this committee determine whether notice is expedient unless we have the facts? MR.

CHAIRMAN: You get the details when you have the bill, you don't know what's in the bill now and get the details and be able to discuss it on second reading in committee . Law Amendments Committee - there's lots of oppor tunities to discuss the bill when you've got it before you. Now you haven't got the bill before you and the debate should be brief as set out in Beauchesne. MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister how much money is involved here insofar as the province is concern ed. What does this appropriation mean, provincial expenditure in dollars and cents? MR. CARROLL: Mr.

Chairman, as I tried to point out earlier this primarily enables us to get into the Federal Trea sury and share in prog rams that are presently in existence and to make provision for the possibility of work activity prog rams which may or may not increase expenditures of muni cipalities and the provin ce . I doubt that it will increa se any of our expenditures but it does enable us to share whatever expenditures are made with Ottawa. MR. MOLGAT: In other words, this is taking advantage of Ottawa money which my honourable friend has persistently claimed wasn't coming. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed .

Next resolution before the committee: RESOLVED that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Department of Welfare Act by providing, among other matters, that the Minister of We lfare may, tbrough The Department of Welfare or through authorized agents, (

a) provide assistance; (

b) provide welfare services and develop pr ograms of welfare services; and (

c) carry out projects of work activity . MR . CARROLL: I think the explanation here is very largely the same as the one I gave before, again to try to share programs presently existing with -- the cost of these programs with the Government of Canada. This enables us to share some of tbe prog rams tbat are presently under way involving some private agencies in the Pro vince of Manitoba; The Family Bureau, The Soeiety for Cri ppled Children and Adults, The John Howard Elizabeth Fry Society, etc . MR. DESSARDINS: Mr .

Chairman, is there any pr ovision here at all to help the welfare reci pient to be able to afford the sales tax at all? MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr . Chairman, ra ther than waste the time of the - 'waste' is not the word, but use up any more time - the remarks that I made in tbe previous resolution I wish to be applied to this second resolution . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed ... MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make the point. The Minister says this is to enable us to share .. From his previous comments tbough there's no intention on the part of the Manitoba Government to share .

The intention of the Manitoba Government in these two resolutions is to obtain federal· money and have the municipalities share the cost. The province takes advantage of this but does not share . I tbink that should be made very clear, tbat it's the

2360 April 7, 1967 (MR. MOLGAT, cont'd) ....• municipalities. Therefore I think that when there are programs of this type that the municipalities should be involved in the discussions from the very beginning, that if there are negotiations between the province a.lld the Federal Government, and if it's the intention that the municipalities are the ones that are going to pay the bill, the province will coast in, then the municipalities should be directly involved in any of the nego tiations. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition are com pletely wrong. MR.

DESJARDINS : ••• the Minister a few seconds ago said that he did not think that this would cost any more for the Provincial Treasurer. Didn't he say that? MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I \YOuld like to get a little clarification on the words "authorized agents". Are we not just dealing through municipalities and municipal officials or their offices, or do we have special agents under the Department of Welfare? MR. CARROLL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have a great many private agencies working in the welfare field.

The largest are The Children's Aid Society - I mentioned two or three others a moment ago - and we will be able to share some of the services with the Government of Canada - some of the costs of these services . MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister says my remarks are completely wrong. They're taken directly from his statement, Mr. Chairman. If he'll go back and check the statement he made during the course of this debate he will see that my statement emanates directly from what he said.

Now, could the Minister tell me on this one, this resolution, how much money the Province of Manitoba is expected to expend under this resolution? MR. CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, dnring my estimates we discussed the expenditures of· our Department which includes grants that we make to many private agencies. We hope now to be able to share some of these costs with the Government of Canada, but there are provincial monies going to The Children's Aid Society and these other agencies that I'm talking about.

It was promised over a year ago that these costs would be sharable with Ottawa; we're now trying to make sure that we take advantage of that Federal money. MR •. MOLGAT: So there is no additional provincial money, it's getting Fa:leral money. MR. PETER FOX (Kildonan): I would just like assurance from the Minister that under

Section (

c) this would not create work at substandard wages just like the Member for Inkst.er mentioned in the first resolution. Shall I repeat that? I just said I would like to have assur ance from the Minister that under

Section (

c) of this resolution it would-not create work at substandard wages. MR, CARROLL: Mr. Chairman; I think we should deal with, that in committee at second reading. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed. Next resolution before the committee: RESOLVED that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Teachers' Pensions Act to provide, among other matters, (

a) for an increase in the benefits to persons whose pension. is calculated under the provisions of the former Act; (

b) for the retirement of teachers on an actuarially reduced pension after they reach the age of fifty-five years and have certain qualifications as to years of service; (

c) for the payment of benefits to the spouse or estate of a person who dies after he reaches the age of sixty at a time when he could have retired and been entitled to an annual pension; and (

d) for the payment of pensions under the Act to new classes of persons; which may require additional payments to be made from and out of the Consolidated Fund. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education)(Gimli): Mr. Chairman, a couple of the provisions here - one or two of them are to - one of them is to keep this bill in concert with the amendments to The Civil Service Superannuation Act.

Srotion (a) . in this resolution calls for the increased rate of pension for. those whose salaries have been so low that the salary formula when this Act came in gave them a lower pension than they would have received by taking their service pension as under the TRAF Fund plus any annuity to which they were entitled. This bill proposed to increase this somewhat for the few hundred senior teachers who retired early, in the old days.

They had an average of about 31 years of service and they had a voluntary retirment at the age of 60 in those days; they had the old pension plus the annuity and this will increase slightly that pension to this group.

April 7, 1967 2361 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) .•••. The second portion of this resolution is again to keep this Act in concert with the Civil Service Superannuation Act to extend the early retirement provisions of the Act to permit teachers whose age and years of service combine or total 90 or more to retire at any time after the age of 55 and receive a pension. The earliest this can be done at the present time is age

Section 4. This again was explained by the Provincial Secreta ry and similar provision for The Teachers' Act . Under the present Act, a teacher who is elected a guaranteed pension form at least one year beforehand may retire and apply for said pension between the ages of 60 and 65, provided he has met the specified length of service. Under this Act if a teacher who has met all these qualifications suddenly dies without being able to sign an application form, the guarantee he had elected therefore can't be put into effect, and the only benefit pay able is a return of contributi ons to the estate.

On the other hand, if such a person has suf ficient time , after being critically injured or stricken by a fatal disease, to sign his name , the guarantee as elected would go into effect upon his death. In fact this just removes the necessity to apply for the pension in these circumstances. (

d) The support part here deals with new classes of persons similar to provisions we have made previously for certa in classes and just extends these , and I can give details on that on second reading. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chair man, I want to thank the Minister for his explanation. Did I gather correctly that under (

a) the intention is to increase the pensions for people who are presently on pension? Is that correct? MR. JOHNSON: Yes. MR. MOLGAT: If that is so, then I think, Mr . Chairman, that this brings up a discus sion we had the other day with the Pr ovincial Secreta ry on another pension plan , the Civil Service Superannuation, where I asked him at that time what consideration was being given to people who are presently on pension and who quite obviously, because of the increased cost of living are forced to meet much higher costs. The Minister indicated then that he would look at this but had no solution to offer .

I take it that the Minister of Education, on the other hand, has a solution to offer because this is presumably what he is proposing here, and I would suggest, theref ore, that we have a look at the whole field, not just the teachers' pensions. If my two honourable friends could get together they might come out with a solution that would be suitable to this side of the House. I'm also curious, Mr. Chairm an, as to what steps have been taken insofar as making our pension plan here similar to those in other prov inces, and the porta bility of the plan with other areas .

The item (d); the Minister said that he would give us the details under second re ading and I have no objections to that. I would hope that we would have a complete list of what he intends to cover by then. MR, RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could clarify a bit this first provision here that some of the teachers who have been retired are going to get increased assets. I'm not clear in my own mind whether he's referring to all teachers who retired -- I think he indicated there are certa in groups or certa in -- who had retired earli er .

He's not referring then, I trust, to all teachers who had formerly retired but simply to some particu lar classification who is getting a lower amount. I'd also like to ask him if he would clarify what he means by new classes of persons; whether he could indicate some samples of this. And finally, on the question of porta bility; again this has been raised and is it not possible for the province to make negotiations or enter negotiations with other provinces to introduce porta bility to teachers' pensions?

I mean, do we have to wait we don't know how many years , before we can get porta bility in almost all instances of pensions? I mean, don't some prov inces now have working agreements between each other? This is a matter of great concern to teachers and there's some movement between provinces. MR. FROESE: Mr . Chairman, I have just one question and that is,'I take it the increa se in pensions will have nothing to do with teachers who are presently contributing to the pension fund but who might not want to carry on indefinitely and who would like later on to withdraw their contrib utions.

They will not be affected, I take it .

2362 April 7, 1967 MR . JOHN P. TANCHAK (E merso n): Mr. Chairman, in the (

a) part of it -increased pensions for retired teachers -I think that meets with the approval of the Manitoba Teachers' Associa tion . They've been asking for that for quite awhile and we certainly agree with that. In the (

b) part of it, the teachers may choose to retire at 55; I pers onally know of some teachers who at 55, after giving service for over 30 years, at 55, probably due to ill health and so on, they were not fit to teach any more and they just hung on and tried to drag the time on themselves ••• and I agree with this part of it. There's one clarification in (c): It says, "for the payment of benefits to the spouse or estate of person." Does that mean that supposing the spous e of the teacher remarries, would her pension continue after that, or does she lose the pension after the spouse marries ?

Maybe some of them feel young enough to get married again at that age. We do not know about that. And then in (

d) part, it mentions "new classes". The Minister didn't fully explain what he meant by new classes . MR . BEN HANUSCHAK (Burro ws ): Mr. Chairman, I'm concerned about Part (

a) of the reso lution. I believe I heard the Honourable Minister say that this would provide for some in crease in the pension presently received by the retired teachers in this category. I understand that the number is quite small ; there's only 15 or 20 teachers in this group, or not much more than that. Would the Minister correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that the problem here was that these people were caught in the change in the pension legislation; that under the old Act they would have qualified for full pension.

When the new Act came in, by reason of some changes, what they in effect are receiving is not full pension under the new Act. Anyway these people do feel that they are aggrieved in some respect there. Now this increase that they would get, will that bring them up to --up to what level would that bring them ? Would that bring them to the same level as teachers who meet retirement requirements under the new legislation, or would it merely provide some increase with the hope that that would satisfy them ? MR . JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, I think most of these questions can be answered more clearly when you have the Bill before you. Briefly,

Section (a) ; for those members who weren't here when the original Bill came in, under the old TRAF fund you could retire at 60 if you had 40 years of service and I think you got $40.00 --or 30 years of service. You got a maximum or $40.00 per year towards your pension and then these teachers had an annuity fund.

When the new Act came in, under the provisions -- their salaries had been so low over their last 10 or 15 years of service that these teachers under the new formula would have got less pension, or not much increase at all, so the $40.00 was increased per year to give them more recognition of their problem. There are about 500 of these teachers left with an average of 31 years of service and it is proposed to raise this somewhat to assist them at this time. lVIR. CAMPBELL: In that case, in the case of the ones that the Minister mentioned last, then all of them are being raised, not just some ? MR .

JOHNSON : That's right. Sir. Of those that are left. MR . CAMPB ELL: Is it planned to review them as well. I mean review them as between individuals or just a blanket raise ? I don't mind if the Honourable Minister leaves that until we come to the Bill itself but the point that I would like to make is contained in the last two lines of the resolution: "which may require additional payments to be made from and out of the Consolidated Fund." Has the Minister an estimate, even though a rough one, of what that will amount to ? MR .

JOHNSON : I think I could give the details on seco nd reading, if you wish, but I believe the first one,

Section (a), would cost around 40 to 50 thousand; the last one is very minimal, the last

Section (d). MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution pass ed ? Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Co=ittee has adopted certain reso lutions and requests leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR . JAMES COWAN Q.C. (Winnipeg Centre): Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Penibina, that the report of the Committee be received. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . CARROLL introduced Bill No. 113,

an Act to amend The Social Allowances Act, and Bill No. 84,

An Act to amend The Department of Welfare Act. MR . JOHNSON introduced Bill No. 110,

an Act to amend The Teachers' Pensions Act. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

April 7, 1967 23� 3 MR . ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. I am informed that the Crerar Papers have been taken from the Manitoba Archives and transferred to Queen's University. I was wondering what effort, if any, was made by the government to retain those valuable papers in our province. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN, Q.C. (Minister of Public Works)(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I have no information. I'll be glad to make inquiries. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Public 'Narks, Is it the intention of the government to sell the farm portion of the property known as the Macdonald Air Field? Second question: Has anyone been authorized to negotiate a sale? And if the answer to that is yes, does the offer.include both land and buildings that remain there? MR . M cLEAN: Mr.

Speaker, I think I would have nothing that I could usefully add to what I said previously on this matter, that the Department of Industry and Commerce is en deavouring to see whether it is possible that some use may be made of the facilities there, and that might or miLght not include the use of the farm land. No decision has been made since, as far as I am aware, no firm proposals are yet ready for consideration by the government. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question. Is it correct, then, that the Minister is not aware of anyone having been authorized to offer the property for sale? MR .

McLEAN: Oh, well, I am aware of the fact that under direction of the Executive Council, the Department of Industry and Commerce has been authorized to determine whether some use could be made, as I have said, from the standpoint of industrial or commercial development. MR . CAMPBELL: ••• Mr. Speaker, direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce? Is the Minister aware of anyone being authorized, or firm being authorized, to offer the property for sale? HON. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C. (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I have nothing to add other than what my colleague has already said. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, what his colleague said was that the matter was in his hands. MR . MOLGAT: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to pursue this question because it's been asked some time ago and I was just checking my Hansard to see exactly when. The Minister then said that iit was not up for sale. I was trying to get his exact comment but it was that no one had been authorized to sell it. He did say it was in the hands of the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

The Minister of Industry and Commerce has been asked this morning a specific question: "Have you turned this over to anyone, to a firm of lawyers, to a firm of real estate people, to anyone and authorized them to sell it for you?" It's a very straightforward question and deserves a straightforward answer. MR , SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, as has already been indicated in Hansard and today, the matter is before the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Industry and Commerce is, as far as I know, the only government ·agency and the only one interested in Macdonald at this point. MR , CAlVIPBELL: Mr.

Speaker, I wish now to ask a supplementary question of the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Has any person or firm or organization been authorized to offer this property for sale? MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. MR , CAMPBELL: Thank you. MR . EARL DAWSON (Hamiota): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a question of the Honourable Minister of Education. Sir, in view of the fact that we are one of the few provinces that still have the oath of allegiance form for school teachers, are you considering doing away with this? MR , JOHNSON: No, MR , DAWSON: A supplementary question: and why not?

There are many many com plaints from school teachers throughout Manitoba, especially those that transfer in from other pruvinces. They think this is ridiculous. MR , FROESE: Mr. Speaker,. from time to time we are concerned here with strict rulings and the Speaker refers us to Beauchesne. I would like to ask a question. I'm not sure who the question should go to, but are copies of Beauchesne made available to the various parties in this House, and if so, could I get a copy?

2364 April 7, 196 7 HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General)(Fo rt Garry) : I think there is a copy, or more than one copy, in the Provincial Library. :MR . FROE SE : I notice that other leaders have their copies in their desks. Are they copies of their own ? Did they acquire them themselves or .. . :MR . RO BL IN: I have one in my desk and I acquired it myself. I recommend the same course to my honourable friend. :MR . DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Educ ation.

Does he have any connent on the press report of a day or so ago that the government is now going to do an about-face and bring in a bill to give additional grants to the divisions which voted against the referendum ? :MR . JOHNSON: No connent at this time . :MR . SPEAKER: Order s of the Day. :MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I believe it would meet with the wishes of everyone if the next item of business were not called at this time and that we proceed immediately to the first res olution on Page 2, the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for St. Boniface. :MR , GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, I wonder -there were arrange ments made between the two groups that ( I should say the three parties) that we would split the morning and in view of the time that has been taken on government bus iness this morning, and in view of the fact that the Opposition side has agreed to move up a private resolution which is sponsored by a government member for debate, I wonder if the House Leader would consider continuing on government business until 11 o'clock and then proceed into Private Members bus iness at 11 o'clock. :MR . ROBLIN : Mr .

Speaker, I think that the sugge stion should be considered but what I would sugge st is that we go into private busine ss and stay there until 11:30 and then move into government business. :MR . SPEAKER: Do I understand we go to Bill 56 now ? :MR. LYON:. Mr . Speaker, I believe - again I 'm speaking from information given to me and I think the Whip of the Liberal Party would concur in this -but there is a resolution here dealing with the State of Nebraska. I understand there has been some arrangement made, I think, this time, -I hope - that this res olution can be brought forward at this time for dis cussio n.

It's a res olution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. Matthews, Page 17, Mr. Speaker. :MR . SPEAKER: ..• proceed to Page 17, the Resolution ·standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Matthews. :MR . RODNEY S. CLEMENT (B irtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, I would ask that we carry on with the reso lutions as they are in order, right after this one. :MR. ROBERT STEEN (S t. Matthews): Mr . Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Turtle Mountain, the following reso lution:

WHEREAS on March 1st, 1967, the State of Nebraska celebrated the One-hundredth Anniversay of its admission as a State to the United States of America; and

WHEREAS on July 1st , 1967, the citizens of Canada will celebrate the One-hundredth Anniversay of the Confederation of Canada; and

WHEREAS for all of the last century Canadians and Americans have lived together in harmony and peace on the North American continent based upon mutual affection, trust and respect of each other and sharing the longest undefended border in the world; and

WHEREAS the citizens of Canada, during the year 1967 , will be celebrating their Centennial of Confederation with many public events ; and \VHEREAS the citizens of the Province of Manitoba, in our capital City of Winnipeg from July twenty-second to August seventh, · inclusive, will be playing host to the Pan-American Games and inviting athletes from both North and South America to compete therein.; THEREFO RE BE IT RE SOLVED that the Government and people of the Province of Manitoba-extend to our good friends, the citizens of Nebraska, our congratulations on the occasion of their Centennial celebrating their admissio n as a state to the United States of America, and our very best wishes for their future prog ress, .peace and prosperity; and BE IT FURTH ER RESOLVED that we extend to our friends. in the Cornhusker State an invitation to visit our country in 1967 and .in particular OlJr Province during the course of tb.e.

Pan-Amer.ican ,Games, and let us join together in-the mutual. celebrations of our respective centennials; and

April 7, 1967 2365 (MR. STEEN cont'd) ••.. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this resolution be printed and engrossed and sent by the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly to the Governor of the State of Nebraska and to the President of the Nebraska State Legislature. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . MOLGAT: Mr .

Speaker, on a point of order , I think that this is an excellent example this morning as to how resolutions should be passed and possibly we could have the agreement of the government for the rest of the Order Paper in the same way? MR . SPEAKER: I should like to take this opportunity and congratulate the honourable members for the action taken. MR . CLEMENT: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone, that the resolution ••• MR . McLEAN: Mr. Speaker .•• MR . SPEAKER: Order, order . MR . CLEMENT: Did you not say I had the floor, Sir? MR . SPEAKER: Order please.

I wonder if the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell would take his seat for just a moment . MR . McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I think it was the understanding that having disposed of the resolution by the Honourable the Member for St. Matthews, that the re solutions in the order as printed on the Order Paper, starting on Page 2, would be the order of proceeding in our business. MR, DESJARDINS: It was my understanding, Mr. Speaker, it was understood that we keep on at 17 and I think you are absolutely right in calling the next motion. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, on the point of order, I believe that in this case, that for once the Honourable the Provincial Secretary is absolutely correct. It was agreed, as I under stood it, because of the peculiar circumstance we take the resolution dealing with Nebraska and then go back to the proper Order Paper. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I distinctly heard from the floor that when we dealt with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews, that we would carry on from that point, and that was the reason that I called this resolution . Order please.

However, it has been pointed out that I erred and I believe the Honourable Members would agree with me that we should follow the Order Paper as laid down, and I wondered if the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell would bear with me on this occasion. MR . CLEMENT: Well Mr. Speaker, you are the Speaker and I have to bow to any ruling that you make, but you distinctly mentioned me as the next speaker and surely the government don 't always have to have their own way. This, I think, is a very important resolution . What justification is there more to go to the one we just heard than mine? I'm next on the list.

Let's carry on and then revert back. This order has been on the Order Paper now for at least two weeks, if not three, and it's very important, and I was recognized and I don't see why the Minister or the government can stand up when I 'm in the middle of my move .•• MR . SPEAKER: Order. Order please.

I appreciate the opinion of the honourable gentleman and I must suggest to the House that from time to time in recent sittings there has been a confusion and deliberation across the floor of the House when we have been attempting to make a decision and it has made it most difficult, most difficult indeed, for me to determine exactly what was required by the honourable members of the House. I am simply turning back to the Order Paper, wh:lch is our way of doing business, in view of the circumstances that I have endeavoured to outline.

So therefore we will move back to the position in accordance with the rules of the House. MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order and not to make your task more difficult, but it has appeared to me -- I have two resolutions on this Order Paper that have been on since the beginning of this particular-- for almost since the month of January.

Now my suggestion is that when this Committee on Rules, at least on Elections and Privileges, sits, of which you are a member, that the suggestion should be brought before that committee that our resolutions should be, the minute a resolution is spoken to or stood, it should go to the end of the resolution paper, because this system we are following today, I have two re solutions on thi:s Order Paper, we've never reached one of them yet; and unless we put our resolutions to the end of the paper as we speak to them or stand them, well there's a possibil ity that this Session may end and these resolutions that I have here will never be reached.

2366 April 7, 1967 (MR. HILLHOUSE cont 'd) ••••• I had no objection to allowing the Honourable Member for St . Matthews to deal with his resol ution but I do hope that when that committee meets that that matter will be taken into considera tion , because I think it is most unfair that an individual who has a resol ution which he wishes to deal with , should have to wait and allow all these res olutions that are prior in point of order on the Order Paper, to be disposed of before his resol ution can be reach ed . MR. SPEAKER : I thank the Honourable Member for Selkirk for his most timely remar ks.

I can assure him it has been quite a concern for the Chair as we have progre ssed along through out the Session, and I can assure him that what he has had to say will be bro ught before that committee for consideratio n . . •.•• continued on next page

April 7, 1967 2367 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) •.•.. The adjourned debate on the proposed reso lution of the Honourable Member for St. Bonifa ce. The H.onourahle Member for St. Bonifa ce. MR. DES JrARDINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Things are back to normal. The Attorney General is all keyed up to listen to me and the First Minister is back in his office, so I guess I can proceed. I think that a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, I --(Interjec tion)--we ll, isn't that normal - when I get up ? Mr. Speaker , I would like to proceed to finish this resol ution. Could I ask, Mr. Speaker, how much time I have left?

I think I spoke for about three minutes last time. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Cl erk, is it three minutes or two minutes ? Twenty minutes. MR. DESJAR DINS: .•. 17 minutes I wasn't far wrong, Mr. Speaker. We ll Mr. Speaker, I think that last time we established that there cer tainly was a shortage of hospital personne l. We established that. I stated anyway, I tried to make the members realize that the reason for this motion was not -- I'm not too confident that it will pass, Mr.

Speaker, but I thought that this was sufficiently important and I thought that the government and the members of. this House, and the people of Manitoba should not pretend that there is no sho rtage, that the shortage does not exist and that we couldn't do anything about it, so I think that last time I made it quite clear, like I documented that, that there certainly is a shortage of nurses and hospital personne l here in the provin ce, and therefore today I think that we should proceed into seei ng what can be dC'ne.

It's no use always fighting about the past, and as I stated we have to get together before this becomes a drastic shortage - it is pretty close to it at times - and see wh at we can do. Now I'll just reread the last two paragraphs that I read from this Min ister's Report - Committee on the supply of nurs es, because this is very important contrary to what has been said in this House; and I quote, "It is in the nature of things that a lot of nurses get married, become pregnant or succumb to wanderlust.

This, how ever, does not explain the high turnover of nurses in hospital employment which is averaging 53 percent annually while at least one large hospital is reporting 90 percen t. " What's going on ? --(Interjection)-- Explain what? The 90 percent or the wander lust. You'd be too old to unde rstand the rest. "This is comparable to industries employing unskilled or low skill female labour. Large offices with predominantly female clerks turn over 30 to 35 percent annually as against 90 per cent, Mr.

Speaker, while school boards this year have reported changes in 17 percent of their teaching positions ." Now I think that this explains that there is certainly a different situation that exists in the nursing professi on. Some of the members are pretty frivolou s. The Member from Winnipeg Centre, I think, was saying well there 's only fifteen reso lutions that was aimed at the govern ment, but did he read them ? I wonder if he's list them. I think they're important eno ugh and I think if the government follo wed those we'd be doing quite well.

There 's one here, for in stance, on Page 73, recommendation No. 16 , that the Manitoba Associa tion of Registered Nurses be authorized to act as the bargaining agent to negotiate re asonable salaries and other terms of employment on behalf of member nurses. I think that in the past these people have been taken for granted too much. Then there is something el se.

We are talking about educ ation, and for years the Minister and the former Minister did not admit this -i n fact they said that that· wasn't the case -::-when I spoke about using the student nurses to subsidize this plan, and this is exactly what has been said and something should have been done about this long ago, and the Honourable Member is talking about a two-year course. We ll, we haven't received, we still have received no guaran tee that this would be done.

In fact, if you were to talk to the administrators at different hospitals you'll see that their budgets have been reduced from a certain amount that they're asking, to replace these student nurses, because they're doing an awful lot of work. And this has been turned down so far, so I think that this reso lution comes at the righ t time. Listen to what this Ministe r's Committee says on this, on the education part of it: "It is interesting but probably not too profitable to conjecture about the variety of enrollment patterns evident at the individu al schools of nursing.

We might risk a general hypothesis, howe ver. We know that the total number of hig h school graduates eligib le for admission to nursing schoo ls did not dec line from 1961 to '65, but increased. We know further that this number increased markedly in rural Manitoba and that a phenomenal improvement in facilities for high school education in rural areas took place in these years . We know that decreases in the enrol lment of some schools of nurs ing were not due to a lack of students but to a shortage of teacher s.

We have seen. from Table 15 that, with one exception, whe rever there was a reduction in enroll ment rural students felt the brunt of it and whe rever there was an increase urban students

2368 April 7, 1967 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) •••• accounted for the lion's share. Perhaps we may conclude ," says the report, "that (

a) not all el igible candidates for admission to the nursing schools could be accommodated in 1965. (

b) When nursing schools are more se lective urban students enjoy certa in advantages over their country cousins. " This is what the report says; this is not something that I invented. And in the report if you -- this was stated also that, "The changes being proposed will cost money but it must be clearly understood that these are educational costs , not health cost s. " And the First Minister took me to task for suggesting that maybe we spend money on this when he was talking about taxes. But do we know -- does the honourable member know - I'm sure the Minister does - how much it costs to educate a nurse ?

There was a survey made by the General Hospital, or at the General Hospital, and costs are over $2, 000 per year per student, and Manitoba is an exporter of nurses. It's an exporter of nurses. We are educating nurses for other provinces. Saskatchewan, next to us, is an importer of nurses and we're an exporter of nurses, and this is what it's costing us. So I think that this is not -- sometimes when you want to save a few pennies it's costing you an awful lot more, and this is certa inly not a saving at all. And what are we doing for the education?

What facilities have we at the Univers ity of Manitoba for nursing education? I asked the Minister of Education; he couldn't give me any reply that anything was being done on this , and the Honourable Member from Winnipeg Centre, I think, would be well advised to go and visit this and then he 'd know what is being done, then he'd realize that the government should not be commended for what they've done - or what they didn't do. I feel that -- certainly in what I read, I think that this was approved that we need better adequate facilities to develop our teaching nurses, those that will teach others.

This is where we have to start. We've got to get the teachers and we haven't got this here. How many de grees of nursing have we in Manitoba, Ba chelor or Master, or Doctor rather? What have we got? We've slipped on this and we should have done something about this a long time ago. As I said, we did not take action after we rece ived the Willard Report, the second part of the Willard Report, but quite a while after and this is what were presen ted and the government did not say one thing that it will implement in this, and this is the reason for the motion.

I know that it will be defeated but if we can wake you people up it will be worth it. Before I leave the book I'd like to read this on the second year course. It is in here. "There is a general consensus shared by the Committee that nursing education should be divorced from nursing service. As the first step in this direction the Committee recommends that the education program for the preparation of diploma nurse be based on a two-year course. " This is one of the only 15 reso lutions directed at the government but this is a big one.

If the government did nothing else but that it would be doing something, but it should have acted long before now. And we saw that the reason why so many girls are le aving, it's because they are diss atisfied. This would give hetter job satisfaction. Another thing, the girls , the nurses , would not be overworked as is the case right now in Manitoba. You say there's no shortage of nurses and we're stretching it so fine that it is at the danger point and this is what the administrators of all the hospitals will te ll you. This is what they told me.

We know that the casual nurses will refuse to work in certain wards. This is the case. They will refuse to work in certain wards because they're overworked, because there is too much to do. So again this is diss atisfaction and we're losing nurses. Some of the student nurses - going back to the student nurses - some of them have the res ponsibility, (I'd like the Member from Winnipeg Centre to take notice of this) for 36 patients. A student nurse, up to 36 patients; the responsibility for up to 36 patients .

And some of these girls can't gradu ate soon enough· to leave the province with those conditions existing. Now maybe we should start by reall y recognizing this is another -- this is another, not resol ution, well, advice of the Commit tee , a recommendation - that the Nursing Asso<Jiation must have a voice in discussi ng the mutual problems . We are not talking with these peopl e.

We are talking with the Manitoba Hospital Commission and sometimes with the doctors but those people have no voice at al l, and they certa inly play an important role here in the hospital care of our peopleo They are asked to -- first of all they are asked to accept all kinds of jobs but they have nothing to say about this. Sometimes they do the work 'of a doctor. Some doctors figure that they've got a little stooge there running around and they clo a lot of the work .• This is not right. They are not there for that at al l.

They're operating·ma chines that should be . done by technicians o1.-.sometimes by doctors. They are re lieving these people. This is fine. They're not going to COmplain if they get the proper help and cliScusS't h�se thin&"S wfth th�m.

April 7, 196 7 2369 (MR . DESJARDINS cont'd. ) • • • • • They are a professional body also, and I think that they should have a voice in this. Now for instance we have intensive care. You have nurses actually -- they're doing the work of a doctor there aren't they? The intensive care , they're taking -- there 's an awful big responsibility pla ced on some of these girls. Did we ever discuss the pl anning of any hospitals with any nursing group? The steps that these girls have to take? It's always the doctors. This is fine, but what about those girls ?

They spend an awful lot more hours in the hospitals than any doctors. I think that they should be -- I think that the former Minister of Health agrees with me . He's smili ng and I think that he thinks it would be a good idea and I hope that he will suggest this to the Minister of Health. I say that we should have more -- is the Minister saying that you have proper considera tion for the nurs es? Ca n he stand up now and say that this is the case ? I don't think that it is. And there is the question of sa laries, of course.

The provinces to our left and to our right have always paid, or they're certainly paying more than we are now, and as I said before , Saskatchewan is importing nurses where Manitoba has been exporting nurses. Now we're not saving that much money when we do that. For the Member for Winnipeg Centre I would say that if he wants the exact amount of what it costs to train a nurse at General Hospital, it is $2, 12 0.0 0 per year per nurse. So when we chase them out of the province we're saving an awful lot of money.

We're spending this money training, and we're doing the same thing with technicians and a lot of other people. I don't want you to think that it's only the nurses. A girl can have a degree in business, not take any more time if she'll work and she'll be tr ained at this place, to work on a computer she'll start at $550 .0 0 a month. And what will a nurse start at ? And I'm not talking about a nurse with a diploma, I'm talking about a degree. She 'll start at $450. 00. Now can you tell me that this is right? Look at what we're doing for the teaching profession. Why?

Bec ause they're together; because they're standing together and they have a little more weight. So I would say let's recognize the associa tion of the nu rses. Let's discuss things with them. Let's make them -- let's show them that we appreciate them, appreciate the work that they're doing and that we recognize the work they're doing. Now the Minister also said that there's not -- everything's going to be fine -- the short age of doctors. Well I want him .to remember this, that he said that this Medicare program will not bring any shortage of doctors and hospital pers onnel.

I want him to remember this because he said that, and we will see in a year or so, I don't want him to say, "Oh well we . have Medicare ." Because he was warned and he was warned last year and the year before . There'll be some rural districts especiall y without doctors. Let me read this , quote from the Tribune here , Mr. Speaker: "The head of Winnipeg General Hospital said Friday the introduction of national Medicare will crea te a serious gap between demand for he alth services and the facilities available. Doctor L. 0.

Bradley, Execu tive Director of the 95 0-bed hospital told the 93rd Annual Meeting that even if brick and mortar can be provided the problem is not solved. " And this is what I've been saying all along. "Hos pital expansion is now limited by personnel shortage. The education of medical and all other health personnel is limited by shortage of ••. MR. SP EAKER: ••. the honourable gentleman that he has four minutes. M:g. DESJARDINS: Four minutes? I'll try to read fast. " ' ••. shortage of instruction of personnel, 1 said Mr. Bradley.

He said, 'The Federal Government's decision to introduce Medicare on July 1st, 19 67 , will trigger some real excitement for the next few years.' Dr. Bradley added if hospital experience is any criteria in ••• , a demand for medical attention will follow. " So let us not be too sure that things will be so easy. I say that we're going to have troubl e. !. don't say that the government should be bla med for all of that but recognize this fact, then you'll do something about it. This is the important thing. Talking about that there's no shortage of staff, forgetting the nurses now.

This is one of the reasons why there is a short age of nurses because hospitals are on a skeleton staff during the week-ends, for instance , and the nurse must do the work of the dietitian and pharma cist, because there's a shortage of pharmacists and dietitians. They can't -- there's a short staff during the week-end and the nurses have to do that again. The physiotherapists -- the Minister I asked him why this was . not covered by the pl an in St. Boniface. Do you remember that ? Does the former Minister remember that ?

I've been asking that for the last four years, and he said, because there 's a shortage of physiotherapists. If that right? Because I can find the page in Hansard where he said this. Now he says there 's no such a thing as a shortage. Now what is the score ? Let's

237 0 April 7, 196 7 (MR. DESJARDINS cont' d. ) • • • • • come clean on these things; let's tell us what is happening. Maybe before you ca ll me to order I should read this statement by the Chairman of the Manitoba Hospital Commission. He says, "For one thing we have such a shortage of health personnel in the province and in Ca nada that the hospitals would most likely fail to obtain every one they want to hire, and at the same time there is now enough money in the individual hos pital budget that every tra ined person in the province who wanted to work in a hospital can find a job. Mr.

Holla nd sa id that the pers onnel squeeze remains most noticeable in the professi onal nursing field, but also, said, that the hospitals won't be able to get as many ward aids and ward clerks as they wish. " Well, Mr. Speaker, I could go on and on except that I only have a couple of minutes.

Pm just saying that let's not blame the government, but unless the government admits that this is wrong, that there is a shortage, let's work together on this, but you will never accomplish anything if you close your eyes and if you 're afraid to accept the responsibility and say "We did everything we could, " because this is not the fact at al l. You build hospitals like mortars and bricks like you're saying, but you do not keep up with the per sonnel and this is all Pm ask ing in this reso lution. I've talked about this for many years with the government not reall y being concerned.

Now I wanted to bring out this fact - let them vote against it, but with a guilty conscience, and if nothing else, to say, all right, we'll get down to business and we'll do something about this. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. DESJARDINS: Yeas and nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAKER: Call in the members. MR. DESJARDINS: I'd like to see the First Minister's face once before I go. MR. SPEA KER: Call in the members. A standing vote was taken, the resul t being as follows: VEAS: Messrs.

Barkman, Ca mpbell, Cherniack, Cl ement, Dawson, Desj ardins, Dow, Doern, Fox, Froese, Green, Guttormson, Hanuschak, Harris, Hillhouse, Johnston, Kawchuk, Miller, Molgat, Patrick, Paulley, Petursson, Shoemaker, Tanchak, Uskiw and Vielfaure. NAYS: Mes.srs. Baiz ley, Beard, Bjornson, Ca rro ll, Cowan, Cra ik, Einarson, Enns, Evans, Hami lton, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McGregor , McKellar, McKenzie , McLean, Masniuk, Roblin, Shewman, Spivak, Stanes, Steen, Weir , Witney, and Mesdames Forbes and Morrison. MR. CL ERK: Yeas , 26; nays, 29. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the reso lution lost.

The adjourned debate on the proposed reso lution of the Honourable Member for Logan. The Honourable Member for El mwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Kildonan as a trade unionist and a skilled emp loyee called for the es tablishment of a perma nent committee to study the problems of automation, and we now have before us an amended reso lution by the Honourable Member for St. Matthews who proposes in its place a conference. This is a rather simple so lution to a complex problem. I think that the Honourable Member for St.

Matthews failed to recognize or give due weight to the complexity of the problem. For example , the Economic Council of Ca nada recently reported on a study of automation, which took two years with repre sentatives of the various groups and a 27 member advisory council and apparently this resolu tion which is now amended proposes to initiate a study, and I hope that the conclusions won't be that this will therefore solve a very complex problem, because as we all know, automation has affected our economy and our life, is affecting it, and will more greatly affect it in the future.

For instance, we know that the effects on certain groups will be absolutel y devasta ting. The unskilled worker, the unskilled labourer will in the future b3 practically wiped out if not in fact wiped out. Skilled labour - in some cases some of the occupations of skilled workers will disappear and others will require a great deal of retra ining. There are some areas though that I think people are not aware of a.:1d this is the white collar worker and the worker in middle management, people who generall y work in offices and who feel that technological change will not affect them.

But they to:> will be very drastically affected and many of their occupations will be wiped out. And of course this would leave, in general , top management or the executive positions, that they too, if not replaced, will certainly face an altered kind of world where decision-making will be completed in many instances by computers and so on - other el ectronic devices. In addition to this there are problems of leisure time , a reduced work week and so on. Now for example in the last few months we have dealt with two groups in particular that

April 7, 1967 2371 (MR. DO ERN cont'd. ) . .. . . . appeared to require special study, youth and women. Mr. Chair man, there's no doubt that the future in terms of emplo yment is rather cl oudy, but one thing is certain, and that is that the world of work will be radically different in the future. So what are our youth to do about it? Are we going to give them the necessa ry guidance and assis tance that they require to make decisions regarding their occupations - and women in particular I think require some guidance and assis tance in preparing for the future.

Many women feel I think that they now have excell ent job opportunities in the sense of secreta rial or working as clerks , etc. , where the greatest proportion of them work in the white colla r field, but many of those jobs will disappear in the near future. .

Cl erical jobs will disappear; white colla r jobs in accountancy which are now done by thousands and thousands of bookkeepers will simpl y be done by computers; telep hone operators are now being replaced by direct distance dialing and so on; and eventually ev•an a typist may disappear because they're now working on machines where a person talks into a machine and a typewriter types it out. But I guess the complexity of the English language will perhaps prevent this from taking pl ace in the near future unless it's felt necessary to go back and revise some of our spel ling.

At any rate, the Honourable Member for St. Matthews believes that a conference will solve this problem, sort of a situation of automation made easy or underst ood or wiped out in one simple lesson, and I would like to know just what form this conference would take, whether this is going to be a one-da y conference or a couple of days and so on.

In any case, it will be inadequate because what we need is a continuing study on this problem or at least a study in depth, beca use for example to study, as the resolu tion sets out, to study the eff ects of tech nological change - I like that word "study" - and to study its moral and its economic and soci ological implica tions at a conference seems to me to be a little bit overly optimistic, because to actuall y propose an indent study at a conference with moral, economic and sociological ef fects , I think is unrealistic.

But this is the motion before us and I feal that, as the saying goes, "Half a loaf is better than none, " or in this instance perhaps a crumb is preferable to no bread at all, because per haps if we accept this tiny crumb there may be a promise of more bread in the offing. So I feel that the members of this House should support this reso lution because it does provide some ho;:>e - and it's a very limited hope - because maybe the conference will draw some of these problems to our attention, and in particular it might recommend the initiation and de ve lopme nt into a permanent study group. I'm sure, Mr.

Speaker , that this will be one of the conclusions, that the conference will feel frustrated in its e.fforts and will recommend that a permanent group be esta bl ished which was the original proposal of the Honourable Mem:':>er for Kildonan -- or for Logan, pardon me. . HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (M;.nister of Labour) (Osborue): Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words on this topic. I got a little concerned when the Honourable Member for El mwood saggested that we might automate women, and I think that's probably going a little far and a little fast.

But we're quite aware, all of us in this House, that our lives have been affected by tech nological change. I am sure members opposite are aware that there were meetings held in this past year with represen tatives of labour and management to take a look at the problem of automation and technological change. One might say when I use the term technological change, I'm including automation.

I understand from some of the experts that they don't like the two to go together, that they a:re different, but I think for purposes of this discussion and for we members here, if you v:�ll accept the fact that when I'm talking about techological changes I'm talking about automation. We have good reason to be optimistic here that we can cope with the problems of automa tion in our society. I can appreciate honourable members being concerned, but to say that nothing has been done is not true.

You look at the government measures and procedures that have been instituted to reli eve the impact of automation and technological change by expanding training methods for adult s, for encouraging adults to retrain and for paying al lowanc es for retraining. Honourabl.e members acquainted with the trade union movement know that there are many programs in contracts that call for measures that will relieve the impact of change on the worker. I have to agree with the Honourable Member from St.

Matthews when he suggests, in light of our experience here in Manitoba, that we have a conference , and I think that the Honour able Member from El mwood carried on a little further and he was getting very close to what we expect would be the benefit from such a conference, that if in fact it is a problem in the

2372 April 7, 1967 (MR. BAIZ LEY conttd, ) • • • . • province, that there will be a committee es tablished and it will be studying the continued effect. -- (Interjec tion) -- It is a problem, but that problem I must tell my honourable friend is offset when you have a high rate of employment, when train ing is re adily available and people can be retrained.

Pm not suggesting that it is not a problem; Pm not suggesting that there aren't people who are hurt by technological change; and I don't believe that the community should benefit from technological change without devising some ways and means of les sening the impact of that change on individuals who have been hurt, and I think the government has pl edged a very forward- looking role in this scheme of things. You have taken measures to relieve the impact.

We have gone so far as to work with labour and manage ment groups to study the problems, to find out what measures might be more beneficial than those measures that are being used at the present time. The other thing that we can be thankful for is that the people coming into the work force in today's society are much more adaptable and much better prepared for rapid changes that are occurring every day than the ol der generation.

As the honourable member pointed out, the problems today in our society are with the middle management group, people in the young middle age, or like myself in the ol d middle age who hope to see another half century but who have been in a particular position for twenty-five or thirty years, who have lost confidence in being able to do anything except that particular job or method of operation that they have been doing for so many years. And they are not protected.

They are not protected by union, and in many instances it is very hard to motivate them to take advantage of measures that are avail able to them to improve their situation and give them a new lease on life.

So I commend very highly to the members of this House the amendment to this reso lution, and I can ass ure honourable members opposite that I have the same concerns about what might happen, about what the responsibilities of government should be , and I say to honour able members that government is facing and has faced its resp onsibi lity to cope with technologic al change in our community in a very adequate manner.

We have labour and management recog nizing that they have a role to play , that management itself today is not just interested in a sheer profit motive, that they have the responsi bili ty to inform their employees as well in ad vance of any major changes as they possibl y can and their intentions. I don't think that this is interfering with any management rights at al l, I think that it is a moral obligation that most managements feel they have today to their employee s.

You have instances where large corpor ations have seen fit to estab lish la rge sums of money to ease the impact - Pm thinking of the Domcar situation in Eastern Canada - where they have entered into a pact with their employees where they will es tablish a fund of some $5 milli on to assist any of their employees that are affected by technological change. Now while our industrial community is expanding rather rapidly, Pm not suggesting that our community and our employers here have to establish a $5 mil lion fund to ease the impact of technological change, but I am suggesting that they can be concerned.

There are many al terna tive methods that are not too costly, and the best method that has been arrived at so far is on'l of consultat ion between employee and employer as to what the hopes and aspirations of the employer are and where his particula r emplo yees fit into the scheme of development, and are they interested in retr aining. I would like to suggest here, Mr.

Speaker, that the trade union movement can pla y a much greater role in facing up to these changes than they are at the present time and the role is this, a service to their membership and an encouragement to take advantage of the measures of training and retr aining that are available today. All too often they enter into contracts for immediate benefits , or for benefits for today, without giving the necessar y cons ideration to the benefits that should be considered for their membership over the long term, but I am sure that some of these facts will come out.

No doubt you have gathered by now that I'm not in favour of introducing any legis la tive measures at this time that may impose rigid rules - as some members opposite suggest might be a good idea - rigid rules on the parties. While changes are occurring rapidly, labour, management and government are coping with it, as has been suggested by the amendment of the Honourable Member from St. M'l tthews recommending that government conduct a conference.

I give assurance to members of this House that it will be a meaningf�l conference and we look forward to inviting some of the members o�posite who have been most concerned about this problem, so that at a later date we would have the privileg e of their experience at the confer ence and of their .criticism of the conference . I urge you to support tre amendment to this reso lution. ·

April 7, 1967 237 3 MR. R. 0. LISSAMAN (Brandon) : Mr. Speaker, like so many of the people that we heard who weren't going to speak, but certain things that are said promote some words. I have never spoken on this particular reso lution although we have had it in various forms for several years now, because as a result of my own experience and reading and so on, Pm not unduly concerned about this tremendous worry over automation that the NDP group seem to enjoy .

I think it's rather much the same attitude that was taken during the industrial revo lution in Europe a century or two ag0, and my reason for this -- I think if every member would re member back I think they would realize that man is a pretty adaptable animal, and thinking through my lifetime , as being a child and from there on, cars certainly were created or in vented before I was born but they came into general usage during my life time.

The same might also be said ofthe telepho ne, and then we have had many new industries, completely new in dustries born during my lifetime , and my experience tells me and my common sense tells me that this technolog ical advance we ar e going through will do nothing more than make a better, more wealthy in all senses, not just in money but a profitable and wealt hy life for people to enjoy. It will mean more leisure because we do enjoy the profits of the machine and the tech nical devices that are being developed. It will mean living literally like kings .

We are buying things now and enjoying things that in medieval his tory kings could not possibly enjo y . Now when you think of the tremendous deve lopments ahead - and many of them are alre ady conceived but it is just not yet practical , economically, to put them on the market - for instance we are all aware of transistors and now there is such a thing as an el ectronic chip which brings within the size of a match head 20 or 30 normal components of transistors and condensors and the like .

It is possible now to put on one square inch of surface 10 times the amount of informa tion recorded upon a long pla y record counting both sides. If you go back and just think of how our grandfathers, and even some of our parents in this country, were simply too busy grubbing for a living to be able to enjoy the things that you enjoy, now im'lgine our grandparents feeling wasteful enough to buy such a thing as a potato chip, and yet here we have mul ti-mi lli on dol lar industries producing potato chips and giving employment to thousands.

How anyone can have the sl ightest fear of the deve lo pments that are coming along through man's knowledge is beyond me. The Minister mentioned a moment ago the corporation attitudes today, and because cor porations are formed by many people and not the old idea of the bos s, they have an attitude to the community and feel that this is one world and all must have the right to a decent living.

I suspect that most of us who are branded as Conserva tives in this day and age only probably think conserva tively in this sense, that we do believe that everyone should contribute their share , that no one should get a free ride in this world, and within that meaning we will enjoy things in this life that were unbe lievable a generation or two ago.

Now I have alwa ys thought this for example - because the product of invention will give us more leisure time and more enj oyment - if you just think of this one thing, if everyone who would like to travel suddenl y had the time and the financial assistance to be able to trave l, it would keep almost an entire generation building up trave l facilities and hotel facilitie s. There is literally no end. The only problem -- and labour unions and corporation attitudes and in fact legis la tors' attitudes make this almost a certainty.

The only problem is the sharing of the benefits of the machine and these new technical devices, and the only danger in the mean time - and this is probably what the New Democratic Party workers particularl y worry about - is the impact of the change during this period. But as I said before, man is an adaptable animal.

Thinking of all the things that have come along through the lifetime of a person of my age and see ing the completely new things deve lop, I remember - 3Jld this is an aside , but it is kind of interesting - I was asked to speak to a group of children on citizenship in a public school, and in spe aking to children I knew I didn't have to appear to be terribl y profound or very precise or perfect so I didn't bother mak ing any note s, but as I went about my normal duties for a week or two I thought, now what should I tell grade school children as one of the prime requisites of be ing a good citizen.

I decided that I should tell them that probably the most necess ary thing was that they should get themselves all the education that they could possibl y get. Then I proceeded to illust rate. and I said, you know when I was a boy there were countless jobs available to people with practically no education. For example, the draying business, teamster s,. and I said now just t.hink of the technical knowledge that a teamster needed in comparison. to a modern truck -driver.

The vehicle was simply lar gely two spindle s, four wheels and a pla tform, - lj-lld the extent of: his· technical knowledge probably was pul ling the wheel off and greasing it and putting it. back on.

237 4 April 7, 1967 (MR. LISSAMAN cont'd. ) • • . • • Well, horses are animals; we are animals, and we know relatively and generally how to treat them but a modern truck is a very complic ated instrument, and even if the driver is not called upon to service it and make mechanical adjustments, he certainly does have to have a lot more technical information about that truck than the teamster did when I was a boy driving horses. Well from then on I started to get myself in trouble.

I reminded them of the old-fashioned gramophone compared to the modern electronic device for reproduction of music and sound that they had in their homes, and then I suddenly realized that none of these children had probably seen the old gramophone and I had to describe how the needle following a wavy track actuated the diaphragm and created sound waves. Well, I went through several items in the home and found that as I was describing the old element that had been replaced, that none of these children had seen it and I had to describe the old one.

But it impressed in my mind that this had come along in one generation. Now certainly change is going to come faster in the years that lie ahe ad than that has preceded, but man is an adaptable animal and to have any worry about it, other than that of simply sharing in the benefits, is ridiculous. It means completely more opportunities, more leisure, more enjoyment, more time for the better things of life, and m:zybe the right of the common person to enjoy just simply living, which this generation certainly seems to have thrown to the winds where previous generations had their nose to the grindstone. So, Mr.

Speaker, while Pm going to vote for the resolution, I don't share any feeling of despondency or discour agement that this technological change is any threat at all to man kind. MR. LEMUEL HA RRIS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, •.. MR. ROBLIN: Would my honourable friend care to adjourn the debate as we've reached the time we agreed to go into government procedure. MR. HARRIS: I'll adjourn the debate. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would just inform the House that if my colleague from Logan takes the adjournment it will be closing the debate. If anyone else wishes to take

part in the debate, they should be notified. MR. HARRIS: I move, seconded by the Member for Wellington, that the debate be ad journed. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, before we go on to government business, may I be allowed a moment on the question of privilege.

Ear lier on today the Honourable Member for Lakeside and I indulged in a heated altercation about a point of order and I fear that in the course of those remarks I made what can only be described as an unkind remark about my honourable friend, and on reflection I regret having made that statement. So Pp like to take advantage of this opportunity to apologize to the House and to my honourable friend for having made an un kind remark about him and I trust that I may be forgiven. MR . CAMP BE LL: Mr.

Speaker, as I mentioned on a previous occasi on, accus tomed as I am to having almost any kind of remark made about me, I am always unaccusto med and slightly embarrassed when somebody reverses the procedure. The first

part is very easy to take and becomes more easy with the passage of time; the second one is a role in which I am unfamiliar.

However, I would like to say, if I made any defence of the Honourable the First Minister, that we all perhaps say things in the heat of debate that we would wish afterwards that we hadn't said, and I would have to admit that once in a while I have been guilty of becom ing - oh, just a trifle heated in my remarks myself, and so in acknowledging the Honourable First Minister's courtesy and recognizing of course that at least part of his · statement was true, I would say that I appreciated the spirit by which he was actuated at the moment. MR . SPEAKER: The adjourned debate. •. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the order of business we would now have called, Sir, would be the Committee of the Whole House to consider Bill No. 56. MR. SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole House. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Treasurer) (F ort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-Gene ral, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider Bill No. 56. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair .

April 7, 1967 2375 COMMITT EE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAffiMAN: Re so lution of the Honourable Member for Inkster that the Committee give considera tion to the advisabi lity of amending Paragraph 4 (1 ) (

h) by adding after the word "therefor" the words "a nd tools required to be provided by an employee as a condition for his continued employment. " The Honourable the Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr .. Chairman, I expressed my views on this last night but I'll just re iterate them very briefly. I'm sure that the government rec ognizes that in principle the same considera tion should be applied to tools which an employee requires as a con dition of his em ployment as the principles which prompted them to exempt farm implements, farm machinery and repair parts.

We understand, and as has been expressed by the Hon ourable Minister, that the failure to exempt these tools rises strictly from administrative reasons and has nothing to do with the fact that the government would not like to make this exemption. I would urge, Mr. Chairman, that the government take the same action, if they feel dis posed, with regard to this resolu tion as they took with regard to the reso lution concerni ng Paragraph (

e) put by the Member for St. John 's and concerning drugs and medicamen ts. I think, Mr. Chairman, that there might be some avenues of making this exemption possible mere ly by a considera tion of the administration that would be involved, and I just wonder whether the Minister couldn't have another lo:>k to see whether this change can be adminis trat ively possi ble , because if it is , it certainly in principle is something that the government ap pears to be willing to do. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I would want always to try to be open-minded.

As my honou rable friend says, we have no objection in principle but I still find it impossi ble to agree at this stage, but all of these matters will continue to be reviewed as the tax measure is in stalled and deve loped ei ther by regulation during the course of the year, or a year from now it will be possible to reconsider it again. At the present moment I can't support it. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, on the statement of the Minis ter, do I understand him to say that this might be changed by regulation during the year, bec ause if he did, then what is the purpose of us passi ng or considering these various clauses as to the items that can be or can not be taxable in Bill 56 ? If I heard my honour able friend correctly, it would indicate to me that notwithstanding what we agreed upon or - well we're not agreeing with anything really - but it seems rather mislea ding. MR .

EV ANS: WeLl, I think I was trying to indicate that we want to have an open-minded attitude, that as we administer the tax there will be change s by regula tion. I would say this one would probably require a change in the Act and could not be brought about by a change in regulations. MR. GREE N: Mr.

Chairman, the one last ditch effort which the government sometimes uses as an expedient, the Minister could bring in a subsection with regard to tools required by an employee and have the subsection one that would not come into force until proc lamation, but that at least would recognize in the Act that the government legisla tively wants to make this exemption but it would not come into effect until the government proclaims it, wh ich is simi lar to what is done in many other cases. To give you a good example, the legal entity cl ause came into effect on proc lamation, and I would say, Mr.

Chairman, that this group is certainly going to support this amendment, but if the Minister comes back in a couple of days and puts something like I suggest in, then we'll think we've touched him anyway. MR. EV ANS: Well, I assure my hono urable friend he always touches me. It would be, in my view, administratively impossible to adopt the reso lution as put forward, cer tainly on the grounds of requiring formal proof, for example tools being nece ssary for continued em ployment, for example.

I see that as admini stratively impossibl e at this stage and for that reason I can't support the reso lution at this time, and all I wanted to indicate form erly was that I hope to continue in an open-minded attitude.

'1376 April 7, 1967 MR . FOX: Mr. Speaker, in view of the words that the Minister just now said that administratively it would not be poss ible to recognize people who have these tools as a necessi ty for work, I think there's not that much of a difficulty. As was suggested last night, the Minister of Labour could held the Minister of the Treasury out on this, I have a certificate as an engineer; the electricians have jo urneymen's licence; ca rpenters have journeymen's tickets, Now these are all that would be necessa ry for proof and I don't think that it should be that diffi cult to administer.

I know that auto mechanics need as many as l, 700 to $2, 000 worth of tools if they're working in a specialized line of work, and every day this is increasing beca use of the technological change that is taking place in the cars, the new tools they need, The compa ny doesn't supply them because these people are free to move from one job to another, so if they're, going to work and earn a livelihood, espec ially under the difficulties that they encounter at the present time with regard to working on a flat rate basis, they have to have the most up to-da te tools to do their job.

So it's a requisite to have them, and I'm sure that this adminis tra tive difficulty could be overcome. Mr . Chairman, in support of this motion might I point out to the Minister that in

Section 4, subsection (3), provision is made, notwithstanding

section 3 previous, that no tax is payable in respect of machinery or equipment used by the purchaser thereof directly in the process, manufacture or production of tangible personal property. Now if the company the man works for is able to buy equipment, and will be able to buy equipment I assume on the signing of certificates claiming exemption, surely the employee should be in the sa me position because he will have to bring these tools to work with him if he's to hold his job.

So that I think the sa me considera tion should be given to the employee who requires tools as to the firm which employ him who will be able to buy his equipment without the tax imposi tion. MR . MILLER : Mr . Chairman, I think it should be noted here also that certain people that are acquiring skills at the various trade schools and so on have to furnish some of their own equipment and tools while they're in training. I'm informed of a certa in party that -- he had to get roughly $30 0. 00 worth of tools himself in trying to get these skills. Now what is the case in connection with these people ?

Will they have to pay a tax on it or will it be exempted ? MR . CHAffiMAN put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR . GREEN: Ayes and nays, Mr . Chairman. MR . C HAm MAN: Ca ll in the members . A standing counted vote was taking with the following results : Ayes, 25; Nays, 28. MR. CHAmMAN: Motion lost. (h) --passed, (i) -- passed. (j) -- passed, (k) -- passed. (l) -- passed. , . , •• continued on next page

April 7, 1967 237 7 MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairi e) : Mr. Chairman, I would like to make an amendment on (1) . As the

section reads, it says all these items "when purchased in bulk for farm use. " Mr . Chai rman, there are many chemicals and weed control fluids that come in two gallon cans or one gallon cans or five gallon cans, fertilizers come in 50 poud bags although mostly it's ordered by the ton, but the way this

section reads: "When purchased in bulk for farm use, " would exclude all sorts of packaged items. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Trea surer) (Fort Rouge): I wonder if my honour able friend would mind if I interrupted him on this point beca use we '11 get into the same situation here that we got into the other evening on medi caments and things. I have a message from His Honour authorizi ng the change that my honourable friend has in mind.

Now if he cares to pro ceed with his address and would like to continue that, I would like to inform him that I have a message and an appropriate amendment which I think he will find acceptable . And now I'd be glad to listen to the rest of his speech. Now I hope I'm not inte rrupting some plan that he has but I think this would be the right way to do it. If he cares to address the Hru se without mov ing the motion it would certainly make it easier to accomplish what he wants. MR . CHAIRMAN: Does the honourable member wish this to stand in Committee ? MR .

EV ANS: No, I think if my honourable friend will complete his address then I can make a comment afterwards. I did want to draw his attention to the fact that I have an amend ment prepared to accomplish what he wants. MR . RUSSEL L PAUL LEY (Leader of N. D. P. ) (Radiss on) : Mr. Chai rman, I wonder on this vein whether I mi ght -o r in this vein may I make a suggestion to my honourable friend.

It might save a lot of debate on other items as well if our honourable friend the Provincial Treasurer would at the commencement of the hearings on the tax bill or the considera tion of the tax bill, bring in his message from His Honour at that time even though we're not at the paticular item concerned, and then we will know there won't be needed to carry on a debate . MR . MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman, ..• one . When the amendments were brought in ori ginally the first day when the Minister gave us the list of amendments I particularly asked him then were there any other government amendments ? The Minister said, "no.

" So we have no means of knowing what is going to be proposed. MR . EVANS: ..•. two more or three more have arisen since . One we dealt with last night . The present item is clause (

l) subsection (

l) of

Section 4 and I propose to move an amendment with a message from His Honour on that section. Another one is

Section 28 of B ill 56, clause (f). Now it's a techni cal amendment having to -- it will have the effect of add ing

section (

g) defining for the purposes of clause (

l) of subsection (1) of subse ction 4, the item that we're dealing with now. Quantities of fertilizer, insecticides, fungici de s,rodenticides or weed control chemicals by reference to weight volume or values. And it will be the intention to do what -- I don't wantto interrupt or spoil my honourable friend's speech. I'm sure he wants to make a presentation as to the reasons for it and I don't want to interrupt him any more than to try to escape the difficulty we got into the other ni ght. --(Interjecti on}-- Yes, I'm informing the House now that I propose to bring in a message to effect those amendments . MR .

JOHNSTON: I thank my honourable friend for his disclos ure in this regard and I won't pursue that part of the argument any further but have another point .to make on the same clause. And it says, "when purchased in bulk for farm use ". Well, Mr. Ch airman, these items: fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides herbicides and rodenticides, etc. are used for other than farm use. They're also used by small market gardeners. They're used for the production of food, not necessarily on a farm.

So the amendment I have, I would like to make my amendment and then if there is some agreement that it would be acceptable we could dis cuss that later. So I move that the Committee of the Whole give considera tion to the advisa bili ty of amending Bill 56,

Section 4, clause (l) (1) by deieting all the words after 'purchased' and adding the following words: 'forthe production of food. ' MR . CH AIRMAN: Are you ready for the question. MR. EV ANS: I wonder if I could see the amendment. Mr. Chairma n, I thank the Committee for allowing me a few minute s to discuss this matter. It does seem to me that to use the term 'for the production of food' would change the intent of the

section the way it stands now or the way it would be amended, because the intention is to relieve farmers of this ex pense, farmers who are in the business of growing food and only that; and not to extend that exemption to the casu al growing of vegetables in a personal garden at the home or whatever the case may be . Consequently I find I'm not able to accept the amendment in the form in which it is and I'm in the same difficulty as I was with the other matter.

?37 8 Aprll 7, 1967 (MR.

EVANS cont'd) .•••• I don't want to be put in the pos ition of voting against what is the principle of this amend ment because I have, after some technical discussion with the Fertilizer Assoc iation and my officials having had many discus sions : I've had di scuss ions and representations from the North West Line Elevator Assoc iation, from the Fertilizer Manufactu rers ' Associ ation, from an um ber of distri butors of fertilizer -- and on the basis of that I am bri nging forward the resolution in the form that I have it which I think accomplishes the purpose of relieving the farmers of the production costs, the tax on pr oduction costs, namely, fertilizer and these other things .

That is the sole purpose of the section, not to exempt othe.r classes of us age, and consequently I must say that I'm not able to agree to the wording of this amendment. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairma n, the difficulty here I think arises over the definition of "fa rm". Market gardening after all is one of the major industries in the Province of Mani toba and where are we going to dra w the line here ? Surely someone who's engaged in the pro duction of food is what we are trying to cover, and it seems to me that if we took that definition -an d I would assume that the Minister intends to exempt the market gardeners.

I would think his colleague, the Minister of Agric ulture would regard that as one of the important things to do,

part icularly that we are trying to encourage our people to diversify. Well then what is left really if we sa y "the production of food, " when we're dealing with fertilizers insecticides, fungicides. The balance of it for casual garden use by individuals would be insignificant in quant ity. It doesn't apply to the growing of flowers and these matters, it 's str ictly the produc tion of food. It seems to me that the amendment proposed puts the intent that the Minister I believe has and would simplify in the final analysis the drafting of his own regulations . HON. HARRY J.

ENNS (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-Iberville): Mr. Chairman, if I may perhaps be of some assi stance to my colleague. There are some sig nific ant areas of other use such as perhaps golf course, etc. where a considera ble amount of fertilizer could be used for the maintenance of greens, and it's for this reason that the amendment that my colleague is proposing to support has to be worded in that way; it can't be all inclusive. MR .

MOLGA T: I recognize that golf courses, and the Provincial Government itself buys a fair amount of fertilizer in these matters, but if we sa y for the production of food doesn't this arrive at the exclusion that we want here ? Obviously golf courses would not be exempt from the sales tax on fertilizers. But if it 's for the production of food then we don't have to get involved in analyzing which market gardener is eligible because be happens to produce only a portion or he's a small market gardener; is he eligible or is he not. This is what we're going to run into unless we make this type of definition. MR .

EVANS : ... clear up one point. I would certainly agree that a market gardener is a farmer. That would be a farm use; obviously growing food as a living or for profit is obvious ly a farm use . But to phrase it the other way makes it necessa ry" for the inspection staff, first of all to satisf y themselves either by way of sta tement or affidavit or whatever the case may be of the use to which it is intende d to put a particular purchase, probably in a small package pos sibly at a department store, and to sa tisfy themselves that the stuff was actually put to that use after having been bought .

Now I think when a farmer known to be a professi onal farm er buys a subs tantial quantity of fertilizer that is reas onable assura nce that it is being used for the purpose set out in the Act. That is a part of the reaso n for phras ing the proposed amendment in the way that we're doing after discuss ion with the large dist ributors of ferti lizers to the farm trade. MR. MOLGAT: I wonder, Mr. Chairma n, if we might resolve this by askin g the Minis ter to give us a copy of the exact amendment that he proposes and leave the

section open and then we'll be prepared to reconsider whether we should withd raw ours. MR. EVANS: Yes, copies are ready and I would ask that we distribute all of the amend ments that I've referred to now, particula rly th ose that are going to be introduced by way of a messa ge. So that my honourable friends then will have ali of the proposed amendments that I know of to this point. I tell the Leader of the Oppos ition that I try to keep an open mind, if other things come forward that I agree with, some of them may require a messa ge in which event I'm afraid I'll have to introduce it. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, there's one point that hasn't been covered. I don't know how many farmers there are in Manitoba but I've been told there's somewhere over a 100 , 000 farms. farmers. They will be using any tax free purchases that they would buy for their busin ess of farming for their personal use as well in their own gardens, and this is

April 7, 1967 237 9 (MR. JOHNSTON cont'd) •.•• nearly half the population. Sur

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-100
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 100.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	817b59a2182b53fc013cfbc6dd183303c661d0e1

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