/ LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 27 April, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 13 students from Grade 5 from the Torah Academy. The students are under the direction of Mrs .

Patty Cohen . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights . We have 27 students from Grade 5 from the Robert H. Smith School under the direction of Miss Wolff, and the school is also located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights . On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Workers Compensation Board - Report of Review Committee MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , my question is for the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board .

The public hearings of the Legislative Review Committee under the chairmanship of Brian King have been completed for quite some time. I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether his office has now received the report of that committee . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Workers Compensation . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, Madam Speaker . The review committee made up of representatives of industry, representatives of labour, and under the chairmanship of Mr. Brian King has completed their review, the public hearings, but they have not completed their report at this time .

We had hoped to have the report, but there were some delays that were unforeseen. So they, to this time, have 'not submitted the complete report to me. Workers Compensation Board - board review of long-term claims MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question further for the Minister is: I understand that the committee look ing into long -term disabilities, a committee of the board of the Workers Compensation Board, has completed its review of long-term disabilities. Is the Minister 's office in possession of a report by that group led by Mr. Craig Cormack? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Yes, Madam Speaker, the review committee were looking to many aspects of the Workers Compensation operations including rehabilitation and also, in addition to that, there are several other ongoing committees that are looking at Workers Compensation. One is with the University of Manitoba where they are doing a study on rehabilitation. There is also an internal review that is going on with long-term disability , and this long-term disability committee did meet with the review committee, as well. MR. G. FILMON: Is the Minister indicating, Madam Speaker, that they have not given him a report as of yet?

HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , ii is my understanding that there has been a draft report submitted to the Workers Compensation Board but they are still working on the report at this time. The report is not complete at this lime. MR. G. FILMON: Will that report be available for the consideration of Estimates of the Workers Compensation Board later this Session? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, it is my undertanding that this report on long-term disability, that the committee is addressing many parts of the operations of Workers Compensation, and it's my understanding that it is an internal document that is to be used for looking at how we can be making improvements to the delivery of rehabilitation to injured workers . We intend to continue to work in that direction to see what areas of the workers' rehabilitation does need improvements. We are working in that direction at this time. Workers Compensation Board - recruiting of doctors MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder if the Minister can indicate , Madam Speaker, if the Workers Compensation Board is currently advertising or recruiting doctors for the staff of the board. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, the workload at Workers Compensation for the medical department is extremely heavy and , because of that workload and because of the age of some of the doctors, a few of the doctors have asked to go on part time. They want to go from a full-time position to half-time position. Because of that request for reduction in the number 1294

Monday, 27 April, 1987 of work hours, the doctors have asked that they go to half time, so the Workers Compens ation will be advertising for one position, for a doctor for Workers Compensation. Workers Compensation Board - incorrect info. provided to media MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the Min ister, I believe over the weekend or earlier, has given a directive to directors and officials of the Workers Compensation Board not to talk to the media for the reason that he wanted to insure that the public gets the correct information on board activities.

My qu estion to the Min ister is, wha t in correct information has been given out by directors and senior officials of the board? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, very clearly, I at no time, made the statement that there was incorrect information being given out. All I said is it's normal practice for -(Interjection)- Madam Speaker , I said it's normal practice for a corporation to have an imm ediate director dealing with the media. During the time, when we were tabling . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: During the time that we were dealing with the annual report, un fortunately our Director of Information had retired just prior to us tabling the report, so it was our intention to have any requests from the media dealing with annual reports directed to the Minis ter's Office, and that is a normal procedure. MR. G. FILMON: Well, Madam Speaker , in fact over the past six months and longer, it's been normal practice for the chairman of the board, whoever . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G.

FILMON: . . . to answer questions of the media, and inde ed senior officials to be quoted. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Workers Compensation Board - Premier's media aide providing info MR. G. FILMON: My further question, Madam Speaker, to the Minis ter is: Why has the Premier's media aide been in charge of all media responses? Are things in such a mess that the Premier's media aide has to be brought in, or is the Premier's Office involved in some way with the ci rcum stances at the Workers Compensation Board? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , if the Leader of the Opposition had been listening to my answer the first time, he would have heard that I told him that our director of information had resigned prior to us tabling of our annual report; therefore, there was nobody available to handle the information, so we were directing the questions, for a short period of time, through the Premier's media person, Michael Balagus. While we were dealing with the annual report, the media calls were being directed to Michael Balagus who was acting in that capacity until such time as we had the media person replaced.

Crimes, break and enter - increase length of sentences MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Attorney-General ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Attorney-General with respect to the recently-announced statistics by the Winn ipeg City Police Department with respect to the number of break-ins estima ted for 1986.

I have asked questions of the Attorney-General, I think annually, ever since they have assumed office. In view of the fact that the number of break-ins in the City of Winnipeg have virtually doubled since 1981; in view of the fact that in recent weeks, particularly in the case of two elderly women, one of whom suffered a heart attack after a break-in, and another one who was viciously assaulted within the past few weeks, I ask the Attorney-General if he is now prepared to take some steps to help prevent these growing incidents of break and enter in the City of Winnipeg?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Madam Speaker. First of all, let's be very specific. The maximum penalty for break and entering a house now is life imprisonment, so I can scarcely ask the Federal Government to incr ease the maximum penalty. Secondly, the . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: That was a serious question. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, and that was a serious answer. Second ly, the judic iary is an inde pendent jud iciary and there's no suggestion, Madam Speaker, that the sentences that are being handed out by the judi ciary for break and enters are inadequa te.

Where ther e is, we appeal. If there's any suggestion that we are not appealing those sentences which are inda dequate, let that be specific. Thirdly, the majority of break-ins in this province are within the purview of the City of Winnip eg Police. Their solution rate is 13.5 percent, and there lies the heart of the problem. Break and enters are primarily a crime of opportun ity, commit ted in the main by non- 1295

Monday, 27 April, 1987 professionals, young people looking at opportunities where the gates are opened or doors aren't properly locked or the house is dark or whatever, and the police are simply incapable of upping that solution rate. Once that is the case, Madam Speaker , the whole process that follows therefrom becomes extremely difficult. If, in fact, you're only catching 13.5 percent of those who are committing the crimes, the deterrent effect of charge and conviction and sentence is gone for the vast percentage of those young people, regrettably, who are committing these crimes of opportunity is gone.

Finally, there will be distributed in the House today, for in troduction by way of Second Read ing on Wednesda y, a bill which deals with the fundamental issue here, and that is crime prevent ion. We are going to be taking specific steps - and that's what we can do, that is what is within our jurisdiction. I hope for full support from the mem bers opposite to incr ease enormously the level of crime prevention because that, and that virtually alone, is the thing that will stop or begin to level off the incidents of break and enters. Crimes, break and enter - programs to decrease MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , the Attorne y­ General doesn't need a piece of legislation to do something. The incidence of vandalism and break and enter has doubled since he assumed office. I ask him why he would not initiate, and why he's not initiated during the past six years, programs like the St. Boniface­ St. Vital Communi ty Awareness Gr oup, a local commun ity-based prev ention gr oup, which has succeeded in reducing the number of incidents of break and enters in that commun ity. Would he not act and develop such groups in conjunction with communities throughout the City of Winnipeg? HON. R.

PENNER: That's precisely what the legislation is aimed at and I will give a full description of it, and further notes on the issue of crime preven tion, when I speak to the bill on Wedne sday. Crimes, break and enter - meet with insurance companies MR. G. MERC IER: Madam Spea ker, a pi ece of legislation is not necessary to do something.

In view of the fact, Madam Speaker, that it's reported that home owner insurance rates in the City of Winn ipeg are some 40 percent higher than those outside the city, mainly because of the incidence of break and enter, has he met with the insur ance indu stry, including the general insurance division of Autopac, to perhaps with them develop a better program of prevention of break and enter? HON. R. PENNER : We ll, comparatively spe aking, Madam Speaker , in fact the best crime prevention programs - and the Member for St.

Norbert has ind icated that and I concur entirely - are those which are indigenous, are community based. In fact, we do need a piece of legislation - signif icantly none passed when he was the Attorney-General - which will recognize the role that commun ity-based organizations play, and begin to provide a statutory way of channelling assistance and funds to the co mmuni ty-based organizations. Foreign exchange losses - reflected in deficit MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Finance.

Today, as has ha ppened over the last two weeks, the American dollar is falling against other major world currencies, and the Canadian dol lar is being slaughtered, Madam Speaker, in foreign exchange markets. The $700 million equivalent money that we have been borrowed out of the Japanese market, today if we had to repay it back, would be equivalent to $920 Canadian. My question to the Minister: Given these massive foreign exchange losses that continue to accrue, can he ind icate what portion of these losses are reflected in this year's deficit? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Finance. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the member is aware, in order to provide for the capital needs of the Government of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba, for various government activities and self-sus taining Crown corpora tions, the province has to borrow mo ney . That has been a practice that has been well established in terms of borrowing in the Canadian market, when the Canadian market has the necessary funds available, and at rates that are suitable and, in some cases, borrowing outside of Canada, in the U.S. and in other foreign markets.

The practice that has been put in place, during this government's term of office, has been to ensure that there is the accounting for the fluctuations in the currencies account, that has been put in place a couple of years ago, and that is continuing at the present time. The assumptions that are made, in terms of the costs of borrowing against those changes, which include the inte rest costs and the fluctuations, are put in place in terms of that estimate that's contained in the public debt costs in this year's Estima tes. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I received no answer .

Given that the Japanese yen has apprecia ted 15 percent against the Canadian dollar in the last four months; given that the Swiss loan that we took out last fall, Madam Speaker, for $200 million, today if we repaid it back would cost us $225 million, can the Minister ind icate what portion of those losses is reflected in the deficit? HON. E. KOSTYRA: As the member is aware, the way tha t th ose losses are accounted for is on th e amortization of the loan over the period of time until when th ose loans are due.

The fluctuations and the accounting of that are changed on a regular basis, based on what the ongoing trends are with those particular currencies. I don't have the particular information, in terms of what assumptions were made with respect to each of 1296

Monday, 27 April, 1987 the currencies that went into our estimate of public debt costs this year, but I would be prepared to provide that information to the mem ber once we get the detailed review of the Estima tes of the Department of Finance. MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speak er, can the Min ister of Finance indicate why the government has speculated so heavily in foreign exchange borrowings, without hedging those borrowings, without locking into place some hedge mechanism, so that in fact we would not be forced with these tremendous losses which will be measured in due course to be upwards, I'd say today, over $1. 4 million? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't accept the assumptions that the member has made in the

preamble to his sup plementary question. The practice that is in place, in terms of the financing covered by the Government of Manitoba, is a practice that has been in place for a num ber of years, and that is looking at various markets based on the interest costs associated with those particular markets, the supply of money that is available, and also what are the projec tions for changes in curre ncy. The practice is no different today than what was in place when that party was the government of the Province of Man itoba.

In terms of formal hedging, the advice that has been given to the Province of Manitoba by the financial institutions, and the financial advisors, private sector financial advisors, is that the cost of any formal hedging would far outweigh any of the benefits.

There is a natural hedge built in place and is part of the dete rmination that's made before any borrowing is done to look at the interest spread between that which is available in Canada, and that which is available in the foreign markets, and that is a dete rminin g factor , in terms of the actual hedge between the change in that currency and Canadian curren cy. Foreign borrowing - contingency plans MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplem entar y, Madam Speaker.

Given the fact that we are going to the market for $1 .56 billion in the new fiscal year, a significant portion of that figure probably going into foreign exchange borrowings; and given the fact that the advice from the marketpl ace has been badly wrong over the last four or five years, can the Minis ter ind icate what contingency plans are in place to prevent us or to stop us from going into foreign exchange markets for that 1. 56 billion or any portion of it and borrowing it, ind eed if we need it, within Canadian markets? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Again I reject the assumptions that are in the

preamble to the supplemen tary question from the Member for Morris. It was just the day after the Budget that was brought down by this government that an independent observer, Mr. Norm Cameron, when commenting on CKY Television, ind icated that the borrowing strategy that the Province of Manitoba has in place is a good one, that it has resulted in the Manitoba Government borrowing funds at rates that are equiv alent to a province like Ontario that has a far better credit rating.

So I don't accept the assumption that the member makes and, rather than taking my word, Madam Speaker, I would suggest that he look at independent observers outside of the Government of Manitoba. In regard to the strategy for borro wing , the government's position is, to the greatest extent possible, we desire to borrow mone y within the Canadian market and to keep at least 50 percent of the borrowings within Canada if the market and the rates and availabile capital are sufficient in the Canadian markets. Film grants - criteria for MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J.

ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreat ion. Madam Speaker , in view of the claim by the Minis ter that she has been vind icated over a grant to the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival over the weekend, will lack of police prosecution now be the criteria for grants made under this department? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Culture and Heritage Resources. HON. J. WASYLVCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speak er. Let me repeat what I said earlier and try to elaborate a bit on our decision.

Madam Speaker, the decision to contribute some funding to this international . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J.

WASV LYCIA-LEIS: The decision, Madam Speaker , of my department to contribute some funding to this International Film Festival was based, No. 1, on the basis of the fact that it is supp orted by our artistic community and not only -(lnterjec tion)- Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Opposition would care to know that this particular endeavour has been suppor ted by many individuals, many businesses, the Plug-in Art Gallery, the Floating Gallery, the Ace Art, Winn ipeg Cineplex, the Em bassies of Spain, Netherlands, France, Germ any, the Goethe Institute in Toronto, the British High Commission and so on.

Madam Speak er, on the basis of the support for this International Film Festival, it was certainly within the parameters of my department to support a film festival that was in volved in showing some internationally acclaimed films. Second ly, Madam Speaker, as I indica ted last week, the decision to fund this Film Festival was made on the basis of the fact that it was running currently with AIDS Awareness Week, a fact that I thought mem bers opposite would have some interest in.

I think, Madam Speaker, if members are as concerned as they claim to be about this fatal disease, which is affe cting a large part of our community and if it is of concern to all of us, then I would believe that there would be support 1297

Monday, 27 April, 1987 for this endeavour , which ensures -(Interje ction)- Madam Speaker. it is getting very hard to answer a question. If this is a matter of seriousness to them. then I would hope that they would listen. The comments across the way, Madam Speaker , are getting more and more disgusting. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I presume the honourable member who asked the question would like to hear the answer . The Honourable Minister. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I'll answer by saying that all proceeds from this film festival are going to a health clinic and to the AIDS Advisory Council. Madam Speaker , let me conclude by saying that. on the assumption that all members in this House have concern for individuals in our society and for all minority groups in our society, I can only then conclude that either the Opposition is in favour of censorship or they / are totally opposed to any focus on AIDS awareness. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Bingos - operation without licence MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood has the floor . MR. J.

ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A new question now for the same Minister. Madam Speaker . The Pequis and Long Plains Indian Reserves have , for over a year now , been operat ing bingos without a licence. Madam Speaker , any other Manitoban who operated a bingo without a licence for a short period of time, let alone a year, would have been prosecuted . Madam Speaker, is the Minister now prepared to prosecute those Indian Bands for operating bingos with out a licence? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, let me J repea t again what has been said in this House around this issue .

All members in this House know we are dealing currently with the issue of self-government and constitutional questions pertain ing to the aboriginal people of this province . Given that situation , it is the intention of members . .. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. If other members have questions they would like to place, there 's plenty of opport unity to do it. The Honourable Minister . HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

Given that situation, it is the intention, at least of members on this side of the House, to proceed sensi tively and to carry out a dialogue and consultation process to find the best solution for all of us, Madam Speaker. Sugar beet industry - negotiations with Fed. Gov't. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Agriculture indicated last week, Friday, that negotiations would be taking place this weekend in regard to the sugar beet industry . Would the Minister indicate to this House as to what stage these negotiations are at the present?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I want to indicate that on Saturday afternoon, the Min ister of Industry, Trade and Technology and I, and the Minister responsible for the Wheat Board met in this building for an hour-and-one-half and discussed various issues dealing with the situation, and I want to say that I feel rather good that the Federal Government now is prepared to acknowledge our position that we put forward back on March 20 of this year. and are prepared to sit down and discuss our concerns.

Following that meeting, Madam Speaker, we were to hear back from the Federal Government today and . as yet, I have not received any response . I'm hoping that late r today we will hear from them to see how they have responded to the issues that we raised last week . I am optimistic that we will hear from them and it's hopeful that we will have an agreement soon. notwithstanding the position of the Official Opposition of this province who would have signed everything away. Sugar beet industry - alternate crop MR. H. PANKRATZ: I think, as we all know, it's getting late in the season for the sugar beets.

Could the Minister indicate whether his department is working with any substitute crops that these 28,000 acres of sugar beets could be seeded in case the sugar beet agreement will not be signed? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I think the honourable member well knows, and he is one of those contract holders I believe. that the lands we are speaking about are some of the most productive lands in this province.

And , Madam Speaker , he as well knows that we have been unwilling to participate in a plan that calls for $200-an-acre subsidies , as occurred in 1985, as being the policy of the government to deal with agriculture. We have always ind icated, Madam Speaker, that we are prepared to put in monies in terms of support up to the 3 percent in that the agreement called for. We were prepared to sign that agreement , but we were not prepared to sign a blank cheque. 1298 Sugar beet industry - deadline for signing agreement MR. H.

PANKRATZ: To the same Minister, would the Minister indicate what is going to be his final date as

Monday, 27 April, 1987 to when he will sign an agreement in respect to the sugar beet agreement? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , obviously I have no final date in this issue. In fact, had the Federal Government moved to respond to our proposal back in March 20, we wouldn't be here tod ay, Madam Speaker , on the 12 th hour waiting for a response to some of our proposals. Farm land - relief from education tax - criteria for MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G.

FINDLAY: My question is to the Minis ter of Agricultur e about the Special Farm School Tax Assistance Program announced in this year's Budget. I would like to ask the Minis ter if hobby farmers and owners of less than 20 acres, will they qualify for this school tax assistance program? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speak er, I'm not sure who the honourable member classifies as "hobby farmer s." He does know that there are approximately 30,000 Manitobans who file a farm return.

Madam Speaker , as I ind icated last week, we are in discussions with the Union of Manitoba Mu nicipalities to make sure that we can work out arrangements in the delivery of the program and once those deliberations are concluded I will be in a position to make an announ cement in this House, bringing about all the details of the plan. I want to indicate to my honourable friend again the princip les that I enu nciated last week.

It is the intention of this government as stated in the Budget that the funds from this program will go to the operators of the loans, as compared to the owners of the land who may not be the operators. Farm land - relief from education tax - ceiling of tax rebate MR. G. FINDLAY: Madam Speaker , my next question is to the same Min ister.

Given that the mun icipalities feel that the details that they have so far make it nearly im possible to pay the whole $12 million out with the $500 ceiling that's presently in place, that being the case, will the Minister raise that ceil ing so that the entire $12 million can be paid out? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I don't know where the honourab le member gets his calculations. I certainly don't accept that assumption, but I certainly want to make sure that the program is delivered as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

I'm hoping that we will have the fullest cooperation from the Union of Manitoba Muni cipalities. Farm land - length of program MR. G. FINDLAY: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister if this program is in place permanently or is it a one-year program - permanently or one year? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the honourable member well knows that there is extensive work going on dealing with the whole question of education financing and reassessment in the province.

Madam Speaker , the honourable mem ber should wait until next year's Budget as to how it will evolve, how this program will work itself through and then he'll see the results. Farm land - relief from education tax - ceiling of tax rebate MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Min ister of Agriculture on the basis of his education tax rebate program. Madam Speaker, my question is, a farmer who owns his land is entitled to a maximum refund of $500 on education tax refund.

Will that farmer receive additional monies from lands he rents, or is the $500 a maximum regardless of whether he owns his own land? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , the honourable member posed this question last week, and I ind icated to him that, as soon as our discussions are concluded with the Union of Manitoba Mu nicipalities and all the details are there, he will be the first in this House to hear of the details and I will be very pleased to provide them to him. I will not start going into hypothetical situations on this program until it is announced.

Then, if there are still unanswered questions, we will attempt to answer them, Madam Speaker. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , in posing the questions now, we are attempting to bail this Min ister out of a disastrous policy direction he's heading into again. Farm land - relief from education tax - compensation to municipalities MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister of Agriculture, is it the intention of his department and the government to provide to the mun icipalities any compensation for admi nistration of this program in dete rmining who rents and who does not farm their own land? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, this is the first time I've heard an honourable member in this House indicate that in excess of $12 million of support to Manitoba farmers is a dis astrous program. Madam Speaker, if that's th e mentality of the Conservative Party, now we know why they are on that side of the House. Madam Speaker, assistance for farmers is a disaster; that's the Con servative polic y. 1299

/ Monday, 27 April, 1987 Madam Speaker, we are in discussions with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities. I would expect that those revenues that are flowing to the municipality , certainly those municipalities in the province would want to provide whatever assistance they can to assist the farming community , because they will be the beneficiaries of the flow-through cash that will come in terms of this program . But , Madam Speaker, we are not concluded our discussions and, as I've indicated, it's my hope that the municipalities of this province will in fact wish to cooperate and assist the farmers.

Farm land - relief from education tax - retired farmers MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, will the Minister's policy discriminate against retired farmers who own their land and are renting it out as an effort to make retirement income, will those individuals be discriminated against by this NOP Government? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, our policy will not discriminate against anyone who is operating the land, and that's who our policy favours.

Anytime that any policy is brought in, obviously when there are rules there will be some disciminating features of the rules because, if there are no rules, obviously there are no discriminations. But, Madam Speaker, our policy deals with the operators of the land, whoever's operating the land, and that is the basic tenet of our policy, Madam Speaker. Agassiz Youth Centre - day passes MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. My question is to the Minister of Community Services and Corrections.

Can the Minister explain why unsupervised day passes are given to teenagers at the Agassiz Youth Cent re, in spite of their histories of running away and breaki ng and entering while on unsupervised day passes? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, that particular problem arose last October with regard to a particular young man . I did ask the ADM to review the policy and, in fact, since December there has been a policy in effect at Agassiz , that no one who has a charge pending would be given a temporary absence .

The rece nt newspaper article, in fact, doesn't refer to an incident since then, but refers once again to the incident prior to December. In fact , the Temporary Absence Program at Agassiz has a very high rate of success of 97 percent . But I think with this fine tuning we'll have the policy as close as possible to optimum. Correctional facilities - day passes MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Minister . Is the policy of granting day passes at the Agassiz Youth Centre consistent with the policies at other correctional facilities? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , I don 't know the details of that.

It is a youth facility , and I don't know whether the member wants a comparison just with other youth facilities or with all facilities . But I will undertake to get that detail for him. Correctional facilities - break and enter while on day passes MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Minister. Has the Minister any count of the numbers of away without leaves and breaking and ente ring while on day passes, and the costs associated with the apprehension , the reconviction and the further incarceration of these individuals? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, I've already indicated that the success rate is 97 percent . The right for a temporary absence is based on the behaviour in the institution, and it does act as a very powerful incentive. There is always some risk when you're dealing with this kind of population, but I think to go backwards and say there should be no temporary absence would really be very poor policy . Again, I will review the question in detail and see whether we can come up with an answer to it.

But I think the overall success rate of the policy really does justify its use, and I say we will endeavour, wherever there should be a case, the 3 percent that are not successful, to see if there's anything we can learn to further fine tune the policy. Linklater, Greg - change of residence MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Health. Can the Minister inform this House whether Greg Linklater, the schizophrenic referred to in the Sunday Winnipeg Sun, has been moved from the McLaren Hotel?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L. DESJARDINS: I will have to check that report . I haven't seen that report, I'll have to check it. Mentally-ill people - programs for community living MRS. B. MITCHELSON: While the Minister is checking that, maybe the Minister could check and see how many other mentally-ill patients are out in the community, left to fend for themselves in dingy hotel rooms or other improper living conditions with no counselling .

Madam Speaker, how many more threatened suicides will there be as a result of this government's policies to place the mentally ill in the community without proper follow­ up? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, this is exactly the concern that I expressed on a number of occasions 1300

Monday, 27 April, 1987 in the House and in commit tee, when we have talked about deinstitutionalizing the people in Selkirk and Brandon without the facilities. That's exactly what I said and you will see that pretty well in every large city, unfortuna tely, in North America. This is why it's so imp ortant to make sure that you have the facilities before you close these institutions, such as Brandon and Selkirk. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Government House leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speak er, as you are aware there has been an arrangement made with members of both sides to have the official photograph for the Session taken at this time, by leave. What we propose to do is have the ph otographs taken, we've invited the Press Gallery to be in one photograph, and then perhaps we can have the Press Gallery cleared for another photograph.- (lnterjection)- The second time we take the photograph, we'll have film in the camera. No, we would like to have one with the Press Gallery in place, one with them.

I think it'll take just a few mi nutes to get a couple people up there while they'r e setting up the cameras and, following the photographs, I would then move the motion, after some commi ttee changes are made, to move us into Supp ly. MADAM SPEAKER: Is there leave then to have a short adjournment to take the photograph? (Agreed) Do we put a time limit on it, or just come back and resume proceed ings when we've finished? The House is then accord ingly recessed briefly until we've comp leted this process. RECESS MADAM SPEAKER: I'll call the House back to order then. The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Fine, Madam Speak er, I would ask leave to make a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) NON-PO LITICAL STA TEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In the family tradition Lynette Wittmei er, 16 years of age of Winnipeg's Panther Gym Club, captured the open women 's title at the Western Gym na stics championships held during the weekend in Vancouv er. Fifteen year old Suzanne Villeneuve of the Winn ipeg Lim berettes Gymna stics Club was third.

In addition, Colleen Johnson of Winnipeg's Winnettes Gymnas tics Club took the novice crown in Vancouver this last weekend also, Madam Speaker. I would just like to mention that the Canadian Nationals will be held in Winnip eg on May 13 -17 and we wish all of the partici pants, particula rly from Winnipeg, good success. COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for El mwood, tha t the comp osition of the Standing Commit tee on Economic Deve lopment be amended as follows: the Hon. J. Cowan for the Hon. J.

Storie; S. Ashton for the Hon. A. Mackling; the Hon. E. Harper for the Hon. L. Evans. ORDER S OF TH E DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. � HON. J. COWAN: Yes, I move, seconded by the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Health. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL Y - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: No. 6., the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. Somebody ready to go? The Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORC HARD: ... do AFM, but I'm jus t wondering, following Thursday's discussion on Regional Services, whether the Min ister has had an opportunity to inquire as to whether, in fact, any emplo yees in Regional Services are presently red-circled and not under review, as the Minister had indic ated on Thu rsday. HON. L. DESJARDINS: The answer that I was given at that time was that they had been notified. There was a possibility that they would be red-circled, but that review wasn't finished.

I'll check again if my honourable friend might have later information than I have, but that was my understanding on Thu rsday, and I had no reason to ask any questions at that time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, a series of questions on AFM, this year the actual funding by the province is pro)ected to be $9.2798 million, and that's the projection of actual support. Is that correct? HON. L DESJARDINS: Yes, that's correct. 1301

Monday, 27 April, 1987 MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr. Chairman, I notice that there is a move of function to Community Services, accord ing to the reco nciliation statement. Now what is being moved? I attempted to find that out in going through the explanation . I couldn't see staff being moved or significantly reduced. HON. L. DESJARDINS: It's not staff. It is a grant to the Main Street Project, and that has been transferred to the Community Services. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Okay, so then Main Street Project now is no longer under the funding purview of AFM, but rather entirely under Community Services, and that is the full value of $787, 100.00? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes. MR. D. ORCH ARD: No w that represents a small decrease of less than 1 percent in terms of government commit ment, but indeed the government commitment .. to the AFM is a greater decrease than that in that , recoveries are expected to alm ost double year over year. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if we might determine what is the nature of the recoveries, and how does the AFM expect that they will be increasing the recovery by - well I've got 93 percent, but virtually doubling the recovery? How is that to be? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It's the Driving When Im paired Program that we expect a higher reve nue. It took a while to get it going last year, and we expect a bigger recovery this year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, now going to the chart in the back of the explanation, appendix IV, page 37 has a five-year recovery summar y.

Now, and I should correct myself, I'll check first off to make sure that my assumption is correct. Last year, it was expected that recoveries would be $682,000, and that figure did not change. Were those recoveries achieved in the last fiscal year, '86-87? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Pretty well what I said before, last year it was only at the second phase, and this has been changed. It took awhile, it wasn't in place as fast as we would have hoped. This is what we antici pate this year in the recovery. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, that's not the qu esti on.

The qu est ion was tha t they projected recove ries of $682,400 last year. The adjusted vote did not show any significant dif ference. My question is: Did they achieve those levels of recoveries? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Not quite, for the same reason I gave you, but I'm going to try and find out appro xima tely how muc ti. It wasn 't the $682,000 because we couldn't start the program as fast as we had antici pated, as soon as we had anticipa ted. Yes, it was approximately $350,000 less, but of course we reduced the Expenditur es also because the program wasn't in place. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now then, to budget for recoveries of - your recoveries last year were roughly half of what you budgeted. If you anticipate meeting the recoveries of $1. 318 millio n, which was almost a doubling over budge t, it would almost be a fourfold increase over actual recoveries last year. Are you saying that you're going to achieve that goal of recove ries of a 1.318 million? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, that's what we hoped to. As I say, we didn't have the program. It wasn't there most of last year. We started a lot later than we thought we could. We had problems. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay.

Then in the Recovery sect ion, two questions: Are the rates of recovery increasing this year over what was charged last year; and, sec ondly HON. L. DESJARDINS: It's the same amount, 225. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. So then that means that you were expecting to have roughly four times the people involved in the program to achieve the recoveries for this year? HON. L. DESJARDINS: We haven't finished with the compl ete hiring yet of the last group. MR. D. ORCHARD: Run that one by me again, please. HON. L. DESJARDINS: We haven't finished, we haven 't hired all the staff yet. There are still some to come. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, that takes us right in then to

Schedule 5 on page 13. In terms of Program Delivery, you are requesting four less SY's, and yet you just indicated to me that you are not finished hiring. That would stimula te the question: What is the vacancy rate within the AFM? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There are 23 vacancies. As I said, it's quite high. We're in the final stages of hiring. In the Impair ed Driving Program, there are 13 out of those 23.

So there's another 10: one finance officer analyst; alcohol treatment worker, one on hold pending the restruc turing; field worker, one; rehab counsellors , two; attendants , two; cook, one - it's in progress; admi nistration assistant, one in progress; secretary two, one in progress. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, let's talk briefly then for the reduction year over year. I noticed that one, in Planning and Research, SY request is reduced by one, and four in Program Delivery.

Are you saying that even with the increased program that you're not expecting the necessity to fill the same number of positions that you believed were necessary last year to deliver the program? Was that basically where the reduction is coming in? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, there is no doubt that like all other departments , we were su bject to some cuts at times. and we're doing the best we can with the staff we have. MR. D. ORCHARD: There was a note I was going to ask you to explain. That was the question, when we 1302

Monday, 27 April, 1987 go to page 27, where you've got the Planning and Research Directorate: "Reduction of one SY requir ed to meet resource target level." What was the resource target level? Was that the constriction placed on the AFM because of budg et constraint? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The reduction of one staff year was required to meet resource target levels, and the agency relations coord in ator position has been elimina ted.

This position hand led program and information support for eight AFM-funded agencies, and the financial control function and the strategic ga thering roles will be mai ntained by other staff presently in the AFM . MR. D. ORCHARD: The chairman of the Public Utility Board asked the Telephone System to come back with a presentat ion in English. Is "resource target level" the same thing as to meet budget constraints? Is that in English language? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, it is. MR. D.

ORCHARD: And I presume then, when we go to page 30, where we have a reduction of 4 SY's required to meet resource target level, that's once again a budget-im posed staff . . . Now, can I ask what salary inc reases are budgeted with the AFM? When we dealt with the Department of Health, we were told that budg etary incr eases are in the range of 8 percent when you roll in the increment on cost of living and the increment. Now are you on a similar pay regime at AFM? HON. L. DESJARDINS: We're identical under the agreement as the department. Those are not the only two factors. Those are the main ones.

We haven't got this as an average. Of course, as I say, there are other factors, but it's the identical as with the department, the staff. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's interesting, because then that means that we would be - would it be fair to say then that the 8 percent incr eased salary costs would apply with rough equality to the SY's in AFM? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It should be quite close now. It depends on how many of them are at their maximum and so on, but it would probably equal out. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr.

Chairman, Personnel Services as another expenditure category includes such things as the education tax levy. Can the Min ister indicate to me whether, in these Estimates, the 50 percent incr ease in the payroll tax is reflective of Personnel Service costs, which vary from down slightly in Planning and Research because you're losing an SY, to up fairly signi ficantly in some of the other groups, particularly the Program Delivery directorate. HON. L. DESJARDINS: We have sufficient funds to pay the incr eased rate on that. MR. D. ORCHARD: So now, Mr.

Minister, I have listened to answers in other areas that are simi larly worded. That does not necessarily answer the question as to whether the payroll tax, as budge ted in the preparation of this AFM request for monies this year, reflects a 1. 5 percent payroll tax or a 2.25 percent payroll tax at the time the Estima tes were prepared. HON. L. DESJARDINS: It represents the lesser, now that this decision has been made. It's the same as any other bills that we have, like a Hydro bill and so on. We will have to find it. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The Minis ter is a mind reader, because I did a quick calculation and I find that on the salary component that is being asked for, the incr ease in payroll tax will equate to - and now this is assu ming that you hire and expend your full salary catego ry, but assuming that you expend the requested $6 million - on just a little over $6 million in salary requests, your payroll tax alone will be up by $45,000.00.

Since that wasn't a budg etary item at the time of Estim ates prepara tion, and the AFM will have to tailor their needs to fit the budget - resource target level is the new terminology I guess - it would seem to me that, for instance, in the Program Delivery directorate, where your average salary of 14 0-some profess ional, technical people is appr oxima tely $3 1 ,3 00, the in creased payr oll tax alone may deny you the opportun ity of filling one-and-a-half of those current vacancies with which you are going to attempt to put more people through the Alcohol Driving Program to recover $1. 318 million.

You're like a dog chasing its tail to spiral down because you, the government, have impo sed more costs on AFM and, as I said earlier, decreased their budget by 7 percent and more when you consider that there's another $680,000 of expected increased recove ries. The amount of government funding has gone down. AFM has turned into more a user-pay department or organization. On top of that, you've added to them - and we could go through it and find out what the management expect to be paying - payroll tax, 50 percent increase.

You've added to them a 10 percent hydro rate increase, which I don't know whether it was budgeted at the time you prepared the Estimates. The telephone rates are going up by 12 .5 percent, which I don't know whether that was budge ted for in terms of the Estimates. By the time we get finished with government-imposed price increases from either utilities or taxation, we're going to find that the available dollars the AFM has available to work on substance and alcohol abuse in the Province of Manitoba is going to be, quite possib ly, substantially decreased. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: But if we have to find it all within our funds, that's going to happen. So far, we haven't had the final word from Treasury, at least on the AFM. It could be, as you heard the answer of the Minister of Finance last week , I think it was a question that was asked of him that some of the amount could be considered, as it was with, for instance, if you have an increase in a wage agreement and so on. This would be conside red and we might be able to go back for more funds. We're waiting to hear the final from the Treasury Board, but I can't tell you that we're promi sed this money at this time. 1303

Monday, 27 April, 1987 MR. D. ORCHARD: I quite rightfully agree that you're not in a position to determine , but as to whether - well, I suppose the logical question would be: Is the AFM or are you before Treasury Board requesting any additional monies for the AFM to make up for? HON. L. DESJARDINS: We're waiting to find out what the final decision will be on that, if there's going to be any directive from the Treasury Board. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, just correct me if I'm wrong.

My und ers tanding of the Minister of Finances' answer was tha t, depending on contract negotiations which will affect the last six months of payroll for which you do not have a contract in place, that aspect of it will be reflected by presumably Suppl ementary Supply or whatever vehicl e is before go vernment and at government's disposal.

Are you also saying that Treasury Board is reviewing the imp act of newly im posed taxation from the budget on your various funded agencies in the department and • also will be increasing the allotment to cover payroll , tax, because that's a pretty big item in the hospital, pretty big item in the schools? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, I certainly can't make that statement of what they intend. I'm saying that we've asked for a clarification, as far as AFM is concerned, from the Treasury Board and made them aware of our position, and we haven't received a final word from them.

So, therefore, we must take the position at this time that we will have to find it. Mr. Chairman, the member is absolutely right. We can't accom plish mi racles. If we haven't got the funds for all the programs, some thing will suffer; that's true. MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm tending to come to that cold hard reality. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has ind icated earlier on that, the salary expectations in AFM are similar to government where roughly we could us e, with in crements and incr eases, negotia ted contra ct incr eases, we would be looking at roughly an 8 percent average within AFM.

The requested incr ease is some 5 percent, which would leave a shortfall if the 8 percent is necessa ry, of almost another $60,000.00. I think, Mr. Chairman, what we can quickly get to, if staff positions are filled and they have to follow the 8 percent incr ease, you'v e got a $60,000 bu dget sh ortfall on salar y increases.

I've done a quick calculation, as I say, on personnel costs, and it would appear as, if that is an additional $45,000 right off the top in face of a decrease in the amount of government commitment by a total of $70,000 year over year, we've got the potential of $1 75,000 of reduced funds available to the AFM to carry out their program.

As I pointed out earlier on, if you take the average salary in your program delivery where you've got the number of vacancies, which presumably is the option the AFM would have open to them to not expend money is simply not to hire or fill all of those 23 vacancies, but if you do that, you then potentially impair the ability to deliver the major program on which you are basing almost double the recov eries. Do you see what I mean when I talk about you getting into a very, very tenuous circumstance im posed (

a) by a reduction in the commitment from government to fund AFM, and substantially increase taxes? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I don't feel that there is a reduction, except what is due to the Impair ed Driver Program. Now don't forget that we were talking about the salary and what we're asking for to the end of the year March 31 , 1988. That doesn't take into consideration contracts, for instanc e, that might be due this September or November. Then we would have to go back to Treasury Board. MR. D. ORCHARD: I realize that. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's why there would be a shortfall there.

When you're talking about 8 percent, that's if every thing goes the way it is now. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, Mr. Chairman - and I think Hansard will show me correct - that the 8 percent that was given to me earlier on in the Department of Health was now tha t any settlement of contract from September 30 on is in addition to that, because the Minister of Financ e, he almost ridiculed the intelligence of the Opposition for suggesting that any incr ease that would be in this year's Estimates is reflective of a contract settlement that hasn't been made.

He said that's like playing poker and showing the Opposition your hand. So the Minis ter is not quite correct when he's saying that the 8 percent that we were told was the known settlement to date. The unknown is not even factored in. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, the members of the AFM - as you kn ow, it's a Crown corporation, it's in depend ent, and the y are gi ving me the best information as the comparision to the department.

But if you want to make sure that we get proper information, the AFM would have to make this comparison and get in touch with the department to make sure that we are comparing apples and apples and not oranges. We can try to have that for tomo rrow. I don't want to mislead you and, obviously you know, we're having two different groups who haven 't worked together on this, and I want to make sure that it is the same comparison. MR. D.

ORCH ARD: Well, I don't even need the information for tomorro w, but at some point in time - because when I go from the adjusted vote '86-87 to the request for this year, I come up with a 5 percent inc rease. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, all right, we'll give you that information as soon as we can. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, that's fine. Now we can get on with other areas of discussion. Is it possible to pull out from the Other Expenditu res, what were the suppl ies and services aspect and commu nications aspect, the total dollars spent by the AFM on hydro and telephone? Is that possible to be done? 1304

Monday, 27 April, 1987 HON. L. DESJ ARDINS: Yes, we' ll get you tha t information also. MR. D. ORCHARD: Because that will tell us, Mr. Chairman, the im pact of those two increases on the AFM. The reason I'm wanting these figures is this is the first time in Estima tes process, to my knowledge, that we've come to an outside-funded agency where we can di rectly ask the im pact of the Budget on your ability to operate.

Now we're going to be getting to that when we get into hospitals, personal care homes, etc., later on this afternoon, but the AFM, presumab ly, when they drew up their request for funds, they had to meet the "resource target levels" as well as .. HON. L. DESJARDINS: You like that. MR. D. ORCHARD: I like that. That's creative accou nting terminology but, nevertheless, let's not get hung up on the terminolo gy. You choose to make a program fit the available budget.

But when you presumably drew that up, you had given funding criteria to target for - and I don't believe that those funding criteria incr eased or dealt with an increase in the payroll tax of 75 percent or a 50 percent increase in the amount you would have to pay year over year, nor or I don't think you had advance knowledge of the one-time forever hydro rate incr ease of 5 percent or whatever it was. I don't believe probably that you had knowledge of a 12 .5 percent incr ease in telephone rates that you would be able to factor into your budgeting.

So this is why it will be interesting to know, within a few weeks, of the im pact on the AFM as an outside­ funded agency of those three taxes alone, because what I predict is that the AFM will be unable to meet some of its program commitments because the mone y will simply be going to pay additional utility taxes and taxes to the Provincial Government and will not be available to deliver programs in substance and alcohol abuse to the Province of Manitoba.

It will be interesting as we pursue Estima tes to find out how many other agencies will be in a similar position because of the most recent Budget that was brought down. Now, Mr. Chairman, one last question that I'd like to ask , for in stance, when an in di vidual may be temporarily sentenced to Heading ley for an alcohol­ related misdemeanour and alcohol counsel ling is re comm ended by the sentencing ju dge, is tha t counselling available to inm ates at Headingley through AFM? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: The assessment is made by the counsellors at Heading ley, not our people, who then make reference and contact with the AFM for treatment later on. That is done by the counsellors of Headingley Jail. MR. D. ORCHARD: Let me get the system correct, so I understand what's happening here. You have an inmate at Headingl ey who has been, on the rec ommendation of the judge said that he needs some alcohol- or subs tance-abuse counselling. The first approach to that individual, that inmate, is then from staff at Headingley . . . HON. L. DESJ ARDINS: Couns elling from the counsellors. MR. D.

ORCHARD: . . . and if they can't resolve the problem, then do they come to AFM, or do they automatically come to AFM? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Then the five-year educational program and then . MR. D. ORCHARD: Five year? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Five days. What did I say? A MEMBER: Five year. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Then the treatment after that would be the assess ment for the treatment. MR. D. ORCHARD: So the AFM is working in conjunction with the counsellors out there to deliver a program? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Right. MR. D.

ORCHARD: One last question, we've always gotten into this and I wish we had more time to spend with it, but is there an expansion of AFM services in the school system for both alcohol and substance abuse? HON. L. DESJARDINS: You realize that our staff there doesn't deal directly with the students, just the training, the teachers. No, there's no increase in staff. We don't feel that there is a need for it at this time. It's been going on for years, some of the same teachers and so on. We're satisfied; that's one area we're satisfied with what we have. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, there is I suppose a general question which gets us into the funded agencies. Now the funded agencies are recei ving about $1.5 million. I would presume again that the majority of the monies going to the funded agencies would be to contribute towards salary costs, by and large. Would that be a fair assumption? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, that would be fair. I think that's where they spend their money. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the same general concern would apply there to the funded agencies in that their ability to operate year over year is dimin ished by them having to pick up an additional 50 percent incr ease in the payroll tax, and that will have some effect on their ability. Mr. Chairman, I would be prepared to pass this unless there are other questions on AFM. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? If not, Item 6- pass.

Res olution 87: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $9,279,800 for Health, The Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1988-p ass. 1305

Monday, 27 April, 1987 Where do we go from here? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, it was unofficially agreed with the Health critic of the Official Opposition that I would give the five-year program now and give a chance to the mem bers to see it during the dinner hour. Then they might want to comment on it this evening. Have you got a copy? There's one on each desk in the House or there should be by now and then we'll have enough for the mem bers who are here today. The document tha t you ha ve before you is a continuation of the format I have used for the past several years.

That is a five-year capital program with projects moving through the major stages of planning and development, including the preliminary functional program stage, the architectural stages, approved for construction and even tually into construction.

The Manitoba Health Services Commission five-year capital program has evolved over the years to reflect a reasonable balance of thrusts in new areas, a modest � expansion in existing services, an upgrading of existing , facilities in accordance with the requir ements of other regulatory agencies, that is Fire Comm issioner and Workplace Safety and Health, and the replacement of time-expired facilities.

The objective has been to: 1) reduce the dependency and the numb er of acute care beds; 2) incr ease the space for ambula tory services; 3) incr ease the numb ers of extended treatment and personal care beds; 4) reduce the numb er of hostel beds in the insured program. The major projects at the large urban hospitals are phased over a num ber of years and propose substantial incr eases to the ambula tory diagnostic and program space with no in crease in acute care beds. In some situations, in anticipation of these projects, a reduction in acute bed numbers has been experienced or will ocur .

In addition to the provision of more or upgraded space in hospitals, personal care homes and clinics, and im proving life and workplace safety, the Manitoba Health Services Commission five-year capital program provides for the following changes in bed numbers: acute beds - total reduction of 24; extended treatment beds - an incr ease of 307; new personal care beds - an incr ease of 356; new personal care-type beds to replace beds in the large mental institutions at Selkirk and Brandon, that is, the psychogeriatric beds - an incr ease of 200, 100 in Brandon and 100 in Selkirk; upgrading or replacement of hostel beds at the personal care level, 623; upgrading or replacement on time­ expir ed personal care homes, 299; upgrading or replacement of extended treatment beds, 357; upgrading or replacement of acute care beds is 903.

As planning progresses on each project, it will be necessary to be assured that the planning is consistent with the new change in direction for health care in Mani toba including the following: continued deinstitutionalization of long-term mental health services; - departure from the dependency on acute care beds; - empha sis on home care and ambul atory programs; - an elimination of the duplication of services at the teaching hospitals; - an examination of the need for additional operating dollars as they relate to capital expansion; - a review of the current and projected operating deficits as they pertain to existing space and new requirements; - a review of the role of all hospitals in the system and their interdependency including: - th e tertiary services in Winnip eg and Brandon; - the rural regional centres such as Portage la Prairie, Steinbach, Dauphin, etc.; - the rural district centres and their role in assisting to relieve the pressure on the more major hospitals; - the future role of the communi ty hospital in the smaller rural communities.

This will result in the deferral of several projects pending completion of a study now under way. These projects include: Benito, Elkhorn, Erickson, Manitou, Vita and Wawanesa. - It is also necessary to re-ex amine the planning guidelines used to determine the bed numb ers and bed locations. All projects must be studied and prioriz ed within the proposed system, considering available resources and the status of the construction indus try before projects will be al lowed to proceed to construc tion.

In some cases, the total level of service will be exam in ed, in cluding the need to elimi nate the duplication of areas of service at the teaching and tertiary level in the urban sett ing, or the future role of the smaller communit y-based rural facility. A great deal of emphasis, at an early stage, will be placed upon the proposed operating costs. In some situations, the proposed operating costs of projects in the advanced planning stage will be re- examined before being auth orized to proceed to construc tion.

To accommod ate these reviews and set in place alternate systems necessary to allow for substitution, annou ncements may continue to be made throughout the year, updating the Mani toba Health Services Commission capital program. In summ ary, the capital costs of the project in the various categories and the related operating costs are as follows: Projects in construction: capital cost , $13 6.7 million; and the annual debt servicing for those would be $14.1 million; the annual program operating costs for those would be $1 5.5 million.

Therefore the total additional annual operating costs for projects in construction is $29.6 million. So that is extra mone y. Not even if some were replacing other beds, this is when these are all built, are open, it will be a $29.6 extra million, nearly $30 million. Projects approved for construction: the capital cost is $283 million; the annual debt servicing is $38 million; the annual program operating costs are $20.7 million. So ther efore the total additional annual operating costs for projects approved for construction is $58.7 million.

Projects approved for architectural planning: the capital cost will be $268. 81 million; the annual debt 1306

Monday, 27 April, 1987 servici ng, $53.6 million. The annual program operating costs, which in this planning category has not been fully developed to this point, we have $10 million for that. In total, these projects in these th ree categories will im pact as follows: the capital costs would be $689. 11 million; the additional annual operating costs for debt servicing will be $1 05.7 million; and the additional annual operating costs for new programs resulting from these projects are estima ted at $46.2 million.

This will result in an addition to the base of operating costs and continuing annually ther eafter at a rate of alm ost $15 2 million per year. In addition to this, we must take into consideration the impa ct of the projects app roved for functional planning, totalling $15 0.5 million, the other projects app roved in principle but su bject to further definition as to role, and the many requests which have come forward and have not been ackno wledged in this program. Details of the projects are as follows; that is, the projects under construction now. You have the estimated opening date and I won't read that.

I'll just read the others: Bethania, Winnipeg - 50 new personal care beds and renovat ions; Brandon Hospital - mechanical upgrading; Brandon-Rideau - 10 0-b ed psychogeriatric facility; Foyer Valade - replacement of the existing 70- bed facility with 12 0 new personal care beds, in St. Vital; Grandview - replace the existing 18 -bed hospital; Health Sciences Centre, Rehab.

Hospital - air handling; Luther Home - increased activity area and other impr ovements; Mid dlechurch Personal Care Home - major fire and life safety upgrading primarily in buildings remaining in service; Misericordia - Phase II of the major upgrading. This provides for completion of the power plant and overpass. Municipal Hospital - reconstruction of the power house; Pine Falls - renovation and replacement of the hospital wings; Ste. Anne - upgrading, including Villa Youville life safety; St.

Boniface Hospital - upgrade and consolidate services; Selkirk-Betel - upgrade 64 hostel level beds to personal care; Stein bach Ho spital - expand emergency outpatient and diagnostic areas and replace 20- bed ETU; Victoria Hospital - fire safety upgrading and other building impr ovements; Virden-Sherwood Personal Care Home - building upgrading, including fire safety; Whi temouth - 20-bed personal care home, with multi-use beds and clinic space to replace the existing hospital; Winkler-Salem Home - replacement of the older wing (58) beds, including hostel beds, with 65 new beds; Deer Lodge - develop the facility as an extended treatment/personal care home facility following transfer of the hosp ital from th e Federal Government.

The capital cost will be provided by the Federal Government.

Projects app roved for construc tion: Brandon Hospital - CAT Scanner, consolidate laundry services; Concordia - 65 extended treatment beds; Dauphin - new public health building; Dauphin Personal Care Home - 25 new personal care beds; Fred Douglas - replace the existing 65-bed hostel and 19 new beds; Gimli Betel - replacement of the 95-bed home, in cluding hostel beds, with a new 80-bed personal care home; Golden West Personal Care Home - renovation and expansion to upgr ade the existing hostel beds to a heavier level, plus some new beds; Grace General - hospital regeneration plus extended treatment beds; Health Sciences Centr e - CAT Scanner; Klinic - new clinic building; Morden Hospital - a major upgrade of emergency and outpatient areas; Mu nicipal Hosp ital - Pha se I of a ma jor redev elopment; Neepawa-Eastview Lodge - upgrading, including life safety and other im provements; Pine Falls - a new 20-bed juxtaposed personal care home; Portage Personal Care Home - replace the existing substandard proprietary home with a new 60-bed personal care home; Portage Hospital - renovations and upgrade, including life safety; St.

Bon iface Hospital - CAT Scanner; St. Boniface Hospital - a further phase of a staged redeve lopment program; Dr. Gendreau's Hospita l , Ste.

Rose - im provements to service and activity space and life safety upgrading; Selkirk Thomas Pri nce 10 0-bed psychogeriatric facility; Souris Hospital - upgr ade diagnostic services and impr ove fire safety; Virden Hospital - replace the existing 32-bed hospital with a new 25-bed facility; Winn ipeg - program space as recommended by the Health Services Review Commit tee for NFA surgery and ambula tory space; Health Sciences Centre Renovations - permanent changes to areas of the existing facility; Health Sciences Centre Standb y Power - emergency power source for the facili ty; Health Sciences Centre Interim Measures - short­ term renovations to accommod ate changes and decanting.

The following projects have been approved for architectural planning only and must come back to government for approval before proceed ing to constru .ction: 1307 Beausejour Hospital - major upgrade; Brandon Hospital - major redev elopment and upgra ding;

Monday, 27 April, 1987 Citizen Health Action - new clinic building; Flin Flon Hospital - major hospital upgrade; Middlechurch Home - replacement of the hostel beds; Minnedosa Hospital - replacement of the existing 35-bed hospital; Mis ericord ia Ho spital - Pha se Ill of the redevel opment; Foyer Notre Dame - facility upgrade; Red Cross - replacement of the existing building; Roblin - 20 additional personal care home beds; St.

Pierre - replacement of the hospital and additional personal care home beds; Sharon Home - additional 30 personal care home beds; Stonewall Hospital - replacement of the existing 18 -bed hospital; Swan River - replace the existing 53-bed hostel with 70 new personal care home beds; Swan River Hospital - upgrading and expansion; The Pas - expansion of diagnostic areas and impr ove patient areas; He alth Sciences Centre Redev elopment - including a free-s tanding psychiatric facil ity.

I have also instructed the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission to work with various communities and facility boards, determining and refining the functional program for a number of health care facility projects.

Projects approv ed for functional planning: Eden Mental Health Centr e - addition of admin istration and program space centre; Killarney Lakeview - replace the existing hostel; Manitoba Oddfellows - replace the existing hostel beds; Shoal Lake Hospital - upgrading; Winn ipeg Muni cipals - Ph ase II of a ma jor redeve lopment; Selkirk Hospital - 20-bed extende d treatment unit; Winnipeg Young Disabled - a total of 30 beds at yet-to-be-de termined locations.

In addition, approval has been provided to carry out necessary preliminary studies to determine the role and scope of the following facilities: Cadman Lab/Chief Medical Examiner's Office, Morris Hospital, McCreary Hospital, Treherne Hospital and Personal Care Ho me, No tre Dame Hosp ital and Personal Care Home, St. Claude Hospital and Personal Car e Home, Swan Lake Ho spital, Lions Man or, Conv alescent Home of Winnipeg, Ste.

Anne Personal Care Home, Hartney Hospital, Birtle Hospital and Personal Care Home, Carberry Hospital, Melita Hospital and Personal Care Home, Deloraine Hospital and Personal Care Home, and Altona Hospital. Provision has also been made for a contingency in the various categories for those urgent and unf oreseen projects which arise during the period. This capital program from the replacement, upgrading and expansion of health facilities in the province is massive, almost $840 million. The resulting ongoing opera ting costs must also be empha sized.

During the development of plans for the specific projects, we all must be constantly testing the concepts to ensure that they are current and in line with our new thrusts in the delivery of health care in Manitoba. These are rapidly changing times, and we must ensure that our planning and our buildings are flexible to accommod ate these changes. This may result in delays in planning, as we are now experiencing with some projects, while studies are carried out. The planning process for specific projects may be interrupted from time to time for a variety of reasons, and this may be most frustrating for some.

Hopefully, we all will be able to accommodate and ensure that our resources available for health will be used in the most prudent man ner. Thank you. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to spend a great deal of time on the capital estimates right now - that'll come possibly tomorrow - but there are a couple of observations I want to make.

First of all, the last category on page 9: "In addition, approval has been provided to carry out necessary preliminary studies to determine the role and scope of the following facilities." Now, I take a look through that and I see certain areas of the province wherei n a number of hospital facilities are under scruti ny. I notice Treherne, Notre Dame, St. Claude, all on No. 2 Highway. Well, Notre Dame isn't on No. 2 Highway, but that is the general area being served , and then Swan Lake Hospital as well. And I notice Melita, Deloraine. Mr. Chairman, what is expected or what is to be studied here?

Is this a study to determine the necessity of, or what is the criteria? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, that is one of the areas that we're studying. We're also trying to determine - there has been a lot of talk in the past of different levels of hospitals, and we're really trying to deter mine to have some - what is it? Where are they now? Just a minute. Of course, the teaching hospitals that we're looking at, the urban hospitals, the tertiary services in Winnipeg and Brandon, the rural regional centres, the rural district centres and the future role of the community hospitals, that's what we're looking at.

It might be, for instance, in smaller areas, I think there would be a tendency to shy away from hospitals as such, and go more for personal care homes with some mult ipurpose beds, also depending where they are. This is why we have to look, and we want to look at the guidelines also to see if some area there is sufficient, and look at the area. We have a lot of people who are coming in - they have problems between two commun ities and so on. Some of them would want to place many beds in a larger centre and then, later on, the smaller centres are not too happ y with that.

We're looking at decentralizing as much as possible, but in an efficient way also. We're not going to build beds where they shouldn't be. So we're looking at the whole thing, and some statement could be made during the year also. We want to keep that flexibility. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister's drive to flexibility and his budget drives, and I don't think we're going to have time to get into the full debate as to what the future role is in some of these facilities, but basical ly, if this preliminary study is to determine the role and scope of the following facilities and is aimed at dete rmining whether they're needed anymore, 1308

Monday, 27 April, 1987 I want to tell you there are big chunks of the country certainly being studied in what may well appear to the residents to be a very ominous way. I can speak from experience because we happen to use, our fami ly, Swan Lake Hospital. My th ree childr en were born at the Swan Lake Hospital, and I suppose I have some attachment to assure that facility continues in exi stence.

I'm not wanting to overreact to what the Minis ter's doing here, but I do note that while you have Notre Dame Hospital and Personal Care Home in the group which is necessary for preliminary studies, it's also in the group that architectural planning is being done on, i.e., Foyer Notre Dame - facility upgrade, estima ted construction start, mid-'88. So while it's in one category for prelimin ary studies to determine role and scope, it's in architectural planning. Mr. Chairman, a further comment - and I think the Minis ter can understand the concern I have.

For instance, Whitemouth is now in the process of having a facility under construction, which is a 20-bed personal care home, multi-use beds and clinic space to replace the existing hospital. That's going on in Whitemouth. The Minister, in his opening statement, is putting the very same project with I think 16 beds instead of 20 at Manitou on hold, because the design of that one was to replace the Manitou Hospital with a personal care home plus four active treatment beds, clinic, etc., etc. I want to tell you that I have to tell the Minister he is making a very grave error here.

First of all, I reiterate the statement I made earlier on, that what we appear to be needing more of is personal care home beds, particularly levels 3 and 4. Now that was the intention of the Manitou Personal Care Home Hospital combination. In stead we're going to have a hospital facility presumably carry on with no impr ovements, no upgrading. The communi ty has just got thems elves the services of a very fine physician - that's my understanding - and we're anticipating an inclusion of Manitou in a more definitive category for construction.

Now it turns out that communi ty is in limb o, and I'll quote from the Minis ter's: " ... the future role of communi ty hospitals in the smaller communi ties. This will result in the deferral of several projects completing of a study now under way." You're going to study Manitou whilst you're proceed ing with the construction at Whi temouth. I'm not saying that the citizens of Whi temouth don't necessarily deserve a facility that is almost identical by description to the one that was in Manitou, but it seems as if we've got a very interesting pattern of where we study for future role and scope of facilities.

We have Treherne, Notre Dame, St. Claude, Swan Lake, Manitou obviously in that categor y, all in a nice little corner of south-central Manitoba. We have Melita, Deloraine being studied, whilst other areas of the province are receiving facilities that could streamline the del ivery of care, I.e., Whitemouth and others. We'll get into that at a later date. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I want to make sure that my honourable friend understands that we're not saying that this is cancelled. There is one thing, in Whitemouth, the construction started last year. It was a different architect, they weren't ready.

Even if we went ahead with Manitou right now, it wouldn't be ready for this year, so we are studying. As I said previously, things are changing. We haven't got the luxury to say, okay, we're going to put a sign on this until we know every thing that's going on. Some of the things were star ted, and we don't want to do any dama ge. Whitemouth was started already - it's started. That's the difference. You're absolutely right, if Whitemouth had not been started, it would have been in that same categor y. They're about the same size places.

It's not just that we're saying to see if they are needed , to see how they're going to be used, how best to go along with building. There's some discussion. We fought with Vita for years to try to do exactly that, give them the personal care homes, and they were holding out for acute care beds that they weren't using. That took awhile, and now they're in that group also. We're going to try to proceed with this as fast as possible, because those are part of the overall needs that we will need in the province.

I don't want any mem bers of this comm ittee to think tha t this is cancelled, because it's not cancelled. To make sure, it is in other words to keep on with the functional programs, to make sure that we have a plan and we work together and we spend the money wisely. This is one of the reasons why I showed you at this time, when we're talking about cutting all the time, what this would mean with the new operating costs when these buildings are open, and it's scary. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not suggesting that the Minis ter is cancelling Manitou, although I will tell you there will be a great number of people in the community of Manitou who will fear that as an outcome because, when you have a review of the role of all hospitals in the system and their interdependenc y, including the future role of a community hospital in the smaller rural commun ities . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: We're looking at that. MR. D. ORCHARD: ... that's a fairly ominous sort of thing.

I want to tell you that the people of Manitou went through that wrenching community debate of losing some 15 hospital beds to get to where they agreed or the community agreed that, yes, 16 beds in terms of personal care homes, I believe, 4 beds of active treatment or treatment beds, plus doctors' offices and some commun ity offices, or what the community agreed on. They have gone through that. They have made their ac commodation with the planners, even though there are some who disagreed with doing it, etc., etc., but that argument is long passed.

They've made that agreement and now, having made that agreement, they find them selves as do Vita, Wawanesa, Ericks on, Elkhorn, Benito, in limbo again with another study. HON. L. DESJARDINS: There's not going to be a long delay. There will be some action on that fairly soon, but my honourable friend is absolutely right. You've been telling us for three weeks to spend wisely and to be care ful, and that's what we're doing. We're not 1309

Monday, 27 April, 1987 cancelling that. There's something that will be needed. In some areas, we're trying to make sure that we have di strict hospitals and community hospitals and regional hospitals. We're trying to work in that direction. This is not a message to show that we - yes, I think there certainly would be a tendency to get away from the acute care beds, I'll say that. I think it is more personal care beds and multi-pu rpose beds that we'll need in tho se areas, especially if we decentralize and try to go in some of these smaller areas.

You're not going to build a hospital in all those places, there's no doubt. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I want to go to page 3 before we move into the Commission itself. You've outlined capital costs in the various categories, and the related operating costs are as follows. In terms of projects in construction, you've got $13 6 million, annual debt servicing for those of $14 million. Now I make that to be a projected interest rate of 10.3 percent or thereabouts. Now you go to projects approved for construction, and you have capital costs estimated at $283 million, annual debt servici ng, $38 million.

Now that works out, in rough calculation, to an annual interest rate of 13. 4 percent. Now if I'm doing it correctly and go to the next one, projects app roved for architectural planning, I have a figure of $268.8 million in capital costs with annual debt servicing of $53 million, for an annual interest rate of 19. 9 percent. Then, in total, the average of capital cost, presumably of the three categories, is $689 million, annual debt servicing is $1 05 million, for an average interest rate of 15 .3 percent. Are my figures basically correct? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I would think that - well your figures are right and they'r e not. The situation is that you're looking at some - they're not all the same. Some of them are CMHC mortgages at 2 percent, and then those in architectural planning, for instance, or later on, there's probably an al lowance for inflation in that also. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minis ter, in his explanation, has made matters worse because, if he's saying that included in the 10.3 percent interest rate which the Commission has put down as an annual debt servicing for projects under construc tion, included in thos e projects there are some that have 2 percent. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Excuse me, do you realize that includes repayment of princip al also? MR. D. ORCHARD: No I didn't, because annual debt servicing ... HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, it's the principal and the interest. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. HON. L. DESJARDINS: You see, that is on a per diem rate. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. I'm trying to keep this organ ized so we can record it properly in Hansard. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, then is it fair to assume that, as we move down the line from projects in construction to projects approved for construction to projects approved for architectural planning, what are the interest rate assumptions? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It's all going to be 10 percent, I'm told. I thought there was a certain amount for inflation, but just the principal repayment plus 10 percent. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Then is it anticip ated that you are going to accelerate principal repayments in order that your annual debt servicing incr eases from an average of 10.3 percent, if my calculations are correct , under projects in construction to almost double that at 20 percent, 19.9 percent for projects app roved for architectural planning? Like the annual servicing costs, if you're using 10 percent throughout, then something has to vary. HON. L. DESJARDINS: In the first catego ry, projects in construction, there are some CMHC mortgages and then the next one also, but they're getting out of personal care homes.

There are none in the architectural planning group. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, you know, that helps slightly, and I suppose the only way we can get defi nitive numb ers on it . . .. HON. L. DESJARDINS: We can cut that down, if you want. Sorry, Mr. Chairman, we could try to assist you in getting the debt, that is the capital and the interest , separate the two if that's any help. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, you see, what I'm seeing here is, particularly when we go to the last column or the last set of figures where you're talking about the total im pact the three categories will have on the budget, you're talking almost $700 million of capital costs. Then you have two specific figures, both of which impa ct on the amount of money we vote every year and presumably the amount of taxation you have to either increase or the amount of money you have to borrow, i.e., that is debt servicing, interest and principal repayment, presumably now, plus the annual operat ing costs.

Now we're saying and we're listening to the Min ister daily warn us - well daily is not proper - but on a reg ular opportun ity warn us of futur e cost projections in delivery of health care. Now, if interest rate assumptions are the same as we go through, then the additional annual operating costs for debt servicing would only vary by the rate at which you incr ease your principal repayment, because presumably the first two, having a certain amount of 2 percent money in it, it shouldn't make for a 50 percent increase is what I'm getting at. 1310 This project ion, no doubt, is going to color your response, Mr.

Min ister, plus your Cabinet colleagues'

Monday, 27 April, 1987 response at Treasury Board into what projects they are going to approve, i.e., when it comes to making a decision on Manitou Personal Care Home Hospital facil ity. If your Treasury Board is looking at the last figure of $105 million of additional debt-servicing costs, they're going to say hey, whoa. But if they just look at the first figure of 10 percent, they're not going to be HON. L. DESJARDINS: We'll break that up and give you this.

I asked for this as a guideline to show that every time you open a personal care home or a bed and so on what the cost is, because we've talked so much about dei nstifut ionalizing and so on. I wanted to show the operating costs and the total costs of building a bed, and then what it adds to my base every year. But we'll break that up between the interest and capital we pay. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, that would be appreciated. It doesn't have to be done for tomorrow, because they're probably not going to get back to us tomorro w. HON. L. DESJARDINS: But you understand, that could vary.

This is a guideline to give you as close as we can. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, I understand. That's exactly the point I'm making, Mr. Minister. This is a guideline as close as you can, but you may well use the frightening scenario like, if I was presented with this at Treasury Board, the first thing I would do is what I did here in five minu tes. I would find out that debt servicing is going from 10 percent under projects under construction to a total of 20 percent for projects app roved for architectural planning.

Now, if I'm faced with the budget constraints that you say you're faced with and you are faced with, I would say, whoa. Now, I want to know the basis under which you, all of a sudden, double the debt-servi cing cost. I want to know if they're accurate before I make the decision to tear communities out of health care facility construction, because that will be the net result of an analysis of these figures. The Manitou's may well not get any replacement of facilit y. I want the basis at which those decisions are made. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I'm assured that they're using 10 percent for it also.

We'll break that down and, of course, that won't change anything. If the CMHC pull out, we won't have tho se go od mortgages, and of course we'll take advantage of those. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Mr. Chairma n , I'll ma ke a suggestion in terms of moving through the Health Services Commission lines.

I would hope that, with relatively short debate, we can move down to the Hospital, Personal Care Home and Medical Programs, and combine th ose with capital because they'r e sometimes interrelated, and attempt to stay line by line as much as possible in the first five items, and then have a wide-open debate tonight and tom orrow for the last three: the Hospital, the Personal Care Home and the Medical lines. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: All right, to assist also, because I've noticed we've talked about the not too much 1311 debate, I would think that maybe the member or all the mem bers could have a chance to make their point and not ask every single question. That takes longer. We 'll bank the qu estions or I might not want to comment, and it would give a chance for them to make their point and that'll be it, to keep more time for the - I would think. MR. D. ORCHARD: Do I wait with baited breath for the Minister's tabling of the study to amalgama te MHSC and the Department of Health? Is that what he's pulling out of his folder? HON.

L. DESJARDINS: No, I'll get you that. I did promise that. MR. D. ORCHARD: I won't have time to read it tonight anyway. HON. L. DESJARDINS: There's nothing final on that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, let's go directly to the supplementar y in form ation, page 3 has the organi zation ch art. I notice the ph arma ceu tic al consultant has got two slots, first of all, under the insur ance division as pharma ceutical consultant, and also as a direct line to the right of Mr. McCaf frey, associate executive director. Is that an error or is that intentional, that he's got those two hats? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: It is actually two roles. The top one is a consultant on drugs and so on, as a consultant mostly and advises. The last one is more, he's in charge of the Pharmacare Program. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, well I wondered if it was an error, because it is somewhat confusing. Ultimately, the bottom position is responsible to Mr. McCaffrey as well, if you follow the flow chart. HON. L. DESJARDINS: But, Mr. Chairman, he also provides any advice, any consulting to the department besides the Pharmacare, on drugs of course. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, let's get right down to business, Mr. Chairman.

In terms of SY counts in the ad minis tration of the Man itoba Health Services Commission, I regret that I couldn't locate my SY request from last year. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Here. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is that last year's? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, part of it, we've got adjus ted last year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, that's the problem. If this has got the adjusted, that always isn't necessarily the same, because you could have added the staff during the year. Well isn't this amazing! I do have it. Can I just take a couple of seconds just to check through here? (Mr. Deputy Chairman, M. Dolin, in the Chair.)

Monday, 27 April, 1987 HON. L. DESJARDINS: On that sheet I gave the honourable mem ber, he will see that in 1986-87, we voted 712 .5, and then we tran sferred from the Department of Health for data processing 10 , one position only approved during 1986-87 re information technology agreement. That will give him the 723.5. So there's not that much change, especially when there are 10 who were transferred from the department for data proce ssing. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the reason for wanting that information or to discuss that information is, if we take a look at the voted estimate last year - not the print but the voted - the Admini stration line was just under $16 million and ended up at over $17 million. Now, the change from print 1986-87 at this time last year in the adj usted vote is almost $1.1 million. Now if we take a look at the SY changes, you've only got a dozen in incr eased SY's, but yet you've got $1 million on the adjusted vote for salary. Now that's about a 7 percent increase in the salary base. Now how did that happen last year? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. HON. L DESJARDINS: In the last sheet that you received, you'll see that the admi nistration went up by $1. 091 million, and that's transfer of data processing from the Department of Health, the salaries of the 10 staff here, and then the non-salary expense of $726.6 million. MR. D. ORCHARD: The difficulty in making the absolute comparison is, of course, we don't have a salary breakout per se from last year. Under Adminis tration, that was never developed last year, but that's neither here nor there. That I don't want to get hung up on.

I see now from that last sheet how we get to the $1. 091 million. That's not only the salary of the SY's who are transferred. That's all of their , presuma bly, operating expenses as well. HON. L. DESJARDINS: It is a non-salary expense related to that transfer, to those 10 staff. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now again, Mr. Chairman, it's fairly obvious here when we talk - and I've now advanced up to page 13, and I'm on pre sumabl y the Admi nistration Program by detail.

You've explained in your note No. 2 that the salary incr ease is primarily due to increments and annualization of September 27, 1986, and I read that to be about a 6.7 percent increase. So again, the question is: Are we under MGEA and roughly equiv alent to the ball-park increase of 8 percent that was given to us as applicable to the Department of Health? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: That increased 2 percent for the rate incr ease, 2 percent for annua lization of September , '86 increase, and another 2 percent - no rate increase of 20 in September 27, 1986; and the annu alization was another 2 percent in each year; then the increment, 1. 7 percent; two new positions, one approved last year and one that shows as a reques ted this year for 1 percent. MR. D. ORCHARD: What was that last little bit? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That is for two new positions, one that was approved last year and one that is being requested this year for 1 percent. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Now, Mr.

Chairman, then presumably whatever the MGEA contract negotiation for the last six months of the year presumably will be applicable here as well, because you're under MGEA contract. HON. L DESJARDINS: No, it's not in. MR. D. ORCHARD: No but I mean, whatever it is, it will be in addition to this vote request. HON. L DESJARDINS: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, when we go under the health and education levy of 17 3,700, the same question as with the AFM: Is that calculated at 1.5 percent? HON. L DESJARDINS: Yes, it is. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay.

It should in fact be closer to, providing you pay out those salaries, $260,000 rather than $17 3,000.00. So we've got roughly an $80,000 incr ease in cost there. Now the second question, we have telephone and telegraph staying stationary at $14 8,800 for telephone and telegraph. Now I would presume that you wouldn't be using the telegraph too much in the MHSC. I may be wrong but would one assume that is mainly telephone at $1 48,000.00? Of the projection of $1 48,000, how much is telephone then? Could that figure be roughly made available? HON. L DESJARDINS: We'll have to break it down.

Probably need a hundr ed for telegraph . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Probably the telegraph is to send wedding congratulations to whome ver might ... Mr. Chairman, then can I ask the question as to whether the request for telephone reflects the 12.5 percent increase in telephone rate that is currently before the PUB? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That is very difficult. This is the same as last year and we would hope that we could meet that if need be with the flexibility that we have in the total that we might have to make up, just in the total that you have for the admini stration.

It might be that we would be able to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. MR. D. ORCHARD: You see, Mr. Chairman, whenever the Min ister gives a quiet answer, you know he doesn't want to give . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm always quiet. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister ind icates that he may have to take from Peter to pay Paul and that's a luxury 1312

Monday, 27 April, 1987 that not all Manitoba busine sses have that are faced with 50 percent increases in payroll tax, 12 .5 incr ease in telephone but basically from the answer, I gather , that the telephone-telegraph of $1 48,000, probably the utilities and maintenance of premise and equipment at $265,000, the same as last year, simila rly doesn't reflect the 9.5 percent incr ease in hydro rates, 5 percent of which was one-time forever in the budget. So that basically what we have, Mr.

Chairman, again is a sign ificant amount of money that's going to be im pacting upon the Ma ni toba Health Services Commission because of the budget, which is going to have to be found somewhere within the budget, and that may or may not mean immediate rehiring of staff vacancies. It may or may not mean a delay of program.

We already probably dealt with sufficiently the Treasury Board submission where certain programs last year were deferred or cancelled because they had robbed Peter to pay Paul last year to stay within the budg et cloth, and the same thing is going to happen this year because of not necessarily not budgeting sufficiently but because the Finance Minis ter came along after budgets were struck and demanded another $82,000 in payroll taxes from the Health Services Commission and Mr. Doer, as Telephone Min ister, came along and demanded another 12 .5 percent of telephone costs, which is going to have to be paid. Mr.

Parasiuk came along and demanded another 9.5 percent on electric bills throughout the Health Services Commission. Now, I reiterate that in this particular portion of the Estima tes we're dealing with a relatively small dollar impa ct on the admin istration of the Manitoba Health Services Commission because we're talking 400 SY's.

We're talking a total operating budget of about $7 million or thereabouts, $6 million, so that the utilities portion of it is fairly small, but when we get down to the Hospital, Personal Care Home line, we're going to see some significant impa cts on those facilities which are not accounted for in any way, shape or form by the incr ease that the government is going to allot to them this year. As with the AFM, it will impa ct on their ability to deliver services. Now, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister make available the three areas at a later date? It doesn't have to be for tomo rrow.

At some point in time, could I get the Health Services Commission upda te on the additional costs of the increased payroll tax and the incr eased cost to the Commission of the telephone and hydro rate incr eases, what those will cost the Commission in this year's operating budget? HON. L. DESJARDINS: You didn't talk about hospital admin istration at this stage, just admin istration. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, just admin istration. Now, Mr. Chairman, computerization is a topic under rather frequent discussion from people who I talk to in terms of the Commission, etc., etc.

Is this the right place to discuss any advances or any changes or any new compu terization programs, or should we be doing that when we get down to the Capital line? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Are you talking about the Burroughs? That should be under Hospital. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. But also, the Burroughs is the one aspect of it wherein you have dedicated through an agreem ent with Burroughs to basically expand using their product. Now. Mr.

Chairman, does that involve any comput erizat ion or any amalga ma tion of com puterized functions between the Department of Health and the MHSC, like, if you have transferred over a numb er of SY's already, 10 of them to be exact, to achieve -(Interjection)- your data proce ssing? HON. L. DESJARDINS: We can discuss that now if you want. MR. D. ORCHARD: What kind of cost estimates have you got for revam ping or upgrading or redoing the data processing computerization within the Commission and the Department of Health? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It's not impacting on the Commission budget at all.

We don't show· any changes because of the Burroughs at this stage. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. What is the potential impa ct on it then when you say at this stage? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It will be mostly in the hospitals. It will impa ct the hospitals at this stage. It might be later on, you know, there are so many years to this figure that it might be, but that's where we're starting. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in past years in Estima tes we have go t in to the di scussion of computerization.

I recognize it's a reality of modern busine ss and probably a reality of modern government, and I know that we're going to be advancing more and more into computer information, collection, proce ssing, etc., etc. I've always had the concern that as a layman, if I was sitting in your chair - and you and I probably have the same knowledge. You might have more than I on computers, but we're laymen in terms of computers and we run the risk, and I would even with trepidation, continue tha t on do wn the line to some of the admi nistration staff within your department and within MHSC.

They don't have computer expertise per se, but yet they are being proposed by computer experts within the department that XYZ should take place, that we should have this system for here and this system for there. You can run in to two things. You can run in to substantial requests for computeriza tion. I think you face them every day as admin istrators - maybe not every day, maybe that's too frequent, but you face them frequent ly. Along with that, when you have someone with a com puter, they may well be generating materials and information that you have to do something with.

This is the debate and the discussion we got into, I believe last year, where I asked the Minister to make sure that they wer en't having computerization for computer sake, and that you weren't having staff, because they have computers, de manding undu e information requests from your hospitals, personal care homes and adding to their admi nistration costs, simply for the sake of generating information which a group of people are going to examine and chase around, because that might not be an efficient use of staff time and budget, etc., etc.

I had a most interesting meeting - actually, it wasn't a meeting; it was a rec eption. I attended a rec eption 1313

Monday, 27 April, 1987 last fall, I believe it was, where one of the major consulting firms did something that I thought was very market-oriented and very timely. They set up a new consulting division in Winnipeg, and I won't mention their name for obvious reasons of commercial - I might be accused of promoting their commercial enterprise - but what they did is they set up a specific computer consulting division .

There was an accounting firm that went into the consulting business because they foresaw a void in the marketplace where a businessman, a manager of a business, an owner of a business, will be given a sales pitch by a Burroughs salesman , an IBM salesman , an Apple salesman, you name it, explaining the advantages of going into a computer in his business and, unless he has a lot of knowledge, he doesn't know whether he's getting good advice or bad advice .

This consulting firm set up a specific division to provide independent consulting advice on whether computers are going to achieve what your management may say they will achieve within your department. Mr. Minister, I think that, as you approach a potential amalgamation of MHSC with the Department of Health or some changes in the administrative responsibility, I think as you put hospitals under more severe budget constraints where you're saying the deficits cannot exist, you're going to see managers coming up with all sorts of computer schemes that are going to be the salvation of cost saving, etc. , etc.

I don't know whether in fact you have the expertise in-house to make those objective decisions and evaluations. Maybe this is time, and as I say, I'm not promoting this commercial enterprise but, to me, they struck upon a very real need of providing outside and independent advice . I suggest to you, Mr. Minister , that it doesn't exist withi n government because, if you go to Manitoba Data Services, they're going to encourage the Department of Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commiss ion to use as much of their main-frame capacity as you can because they're going to charge you for using it.

They're going to use up a surplus. So you can 't even go to them, I believe, and get independent and objective advice on whether you're doing the right thing in compu terization. Last year, we discussed some fairly substantial expend iture s into computers, and you may well be doing the same thing again this year. I would ask you , Mr.

Minister, to give consideration to whether you and your senior people have enough independent information at their disposal to make the kind of major investment decisions , whether they're going to be appropriate , No. 1, cost effective, No. 2, and end up with that goal of cost saving . I make that as a suggestion again this year, based on the one firm that went into it. If they went into it, there's obviously a market need and others will , so it's not recommending them exclus ively.

I think they have struck upon an ideal slot to provide some independent consulting advice to business and governments in terms of their future computer needs. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I'll be brief and try to progress. We have hired Mr. Jim Dale, who has been appointed as senior manager , who will be responsible for implementing a full range of information, communication applic ation, across the health care system. We encourage all the hospitals, the institutions , to get independent consultants . I agree with what has been said .

We would not hesitate , as time goes and we get more involved in that, in getting independent counselling ourselves to analyze not only the ones from the institutions, but to make sure that is looked at from the poin t of view of protecting the Commission as well. MR. D. ORCHARD : This individual that you 've just mentioned is newly hired . He has background in computer systems, obviously . His job is - what? - going to be to analyze the . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Manage the Burroughs project pretty well. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well you see, therein may be one of the downsides of your Burroughs agreement where you 're tied to one individual corporation in terms of use. I don't want to really get into this because it would probably take up too much time but, if he's looking at the Sperry-Burroughs agreement and how to implement it within the department , that may not be as clearly independent or objective, if you will, as what you may well need in determining your needs, because you're now going to tailor, if I gather it, the needs of the MHSC and the department to a specific agreement and that may have downsides . HON. L.

DESJARDINS: That won't prevent us, as I said , from going to an independent consultant . MR. D. ORCHARD: That to me, Mr. Minister, is probably a very .. . HON. L. DESJARDINS : What the Comm ission would need is not really tied into Burroughs . That'll be the hospitals . We cou ld be using another product also . MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, I think enou gh discussion on that, Mr. Chairman . In general terms , Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate whether , during this fiscal year, there will be any proposal for integration, amalgamation, coupling of the MHSC and the Department of Health? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I wou ld hope so; I think so. We might not even need legislation . Unfort unately , I forgot to bring this report that I promised . The suggestion is that we keep the Commission going, but pretty well like the Housing Corporation. It might be that the Minister of Health would be the chairperson and then we could have the Minister of Treasury Board or Finance, or designate a senior staff in there because we have to go through that routine , through that procedure anyway, to go to the Treasury Board and so on, because all the money comes from the government now.

We would have somebody probably from - I say probably because it's not finalized, but we seem to be going in that direction - the Planning and Priorities . In other words , it would be some senior people from the department and what is known as the 1314

Monday, 27 April, 1987 Commission at this time, and also it might save time and make sure of the other safeguards, if we have somebody from Finance and Planning and Prior ities also. We would then set up an advisory committee . We certainly will have to have the contact with the consumer, so that would be it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Can I ask the Minister whether there is a target date that he and the government have in mind for any implementation? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: When I get out of here in a couple of days , I hope , the inte ntion is to set up kind of a target date, not only for that, but all the changes that we hope we can make, or how we can progress and go into Cabinet on that for the approval. I would say that we would hope to have this in place before we meet again next year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay.

Now therein lies the problem, not that I would necessarily be able to shed any great information or perspective on some proposed changes but, once we finish with the Department of Health Estimates, the open opportunity for discussion of that in the Legislature is essentially gone and , if it doesn 't require legislation, what forum would we have? Like question period is no good because you never answer a question there, with all respect .

So where would the Opposition and the general public per se have an opportunity to have a fuller discussion on the potential amalgamation, because I think the Minister can recognize that can have either very minimal impact or very, very wide-reaching impact, depending on the degree of amalgamation? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I can certainly assure you we're not stalling to wait after this at all. In fact, I would welcome a discussion on this. You're right , I don't know where because , normally, it would be whether it takes affect, and we're working on that now.

There's been, as you know, an awful lot of work on that over the period of years, some with other provinces and other people . We can give you - I 'll make sure that we bring a copy of this report tonight, okay, and then you'll have that. But then we haven't gone to Cabinet with the final recommendation. I can tell you Cabinet approves, in principle, the direction we want to go. We want to involve, stop the duplication and involve the community side of health care also, and have them working together as much as possible.

We've moved in that direction when in Research and Planning and other areas, and we would do more of that. But I certainly will not be able to finalize, especially not within the next few days . In general, I would think that this is what we will recommend, that we go to a staff, mostly of something like - which is a recommendation of Deeter, something like the Housing Corporation, probably with the Minister of Health as chairperson . Then we would have an advisory committee also, to keep in contact with the public.

Then, other than that, in detail , will we have an Associate Deputy Minister or a Director of the Commission, I don't know. We wouldn't need any legislation . At this stage we don 't think we will need it. We will go in that general direction, that's our intention. We'll try to get the best of both worlds. This government insists on having more hands-on on the financing and on the Commission that normally would be allowed by the act that we have because they pay the cost. So we might as well bring them in and have everybody at least in the knowledge of what is needed in the Commission also .

So we would tend to go in that direction, because now we're going in Treasury, a lot of the things we never did before. At the insistence of Cabinet and Treasury Board we are now going in that direction . So we're trying to get that and , of course, one rec ommendation was that we be careful that we keep the post-audit in certain things. It would be very difficu lt to have pre ­ audit on everything dealing with the hospitals and so on . I think it'll give you a good idea because when we give you that report, because we certainly want to go with the intent, we're very pleased with this report.

That doesn't mean we'll do exactly what they 're suggesting. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, and I only make this an observation, and the Minister I know won 't want to ever even refute this . But, Mr. Chairman, in the time that I've been in the House and watched this Minister respond to questions about problems in hospitals , he has generally very skilfully said: Well, you know, that's the Manitoba Health Services Commission , therefore, talk to them, don't talk to me. I know the Minister is curling up his HON. L. DESJARDINS: I said the hospital boards, not so much the Commission . MR. D.

ORCHARD: Right, but we get into this whole area of accountability . Now I can see a positive aspect from my perspective right now in Opposition - I may not be so positive when we're government - of having the Minister directly responsible as chairman of this new Crown corporation, quasi-funding organization . But I want to tell you, given the kind of fiascos that we've seen from Mr. Mackling in the Telephone System ; Mr. Bucklaschuk in Autopac ; Mr.

Lecuyer and othe rs in terms of Worker s Compensation Board , where they've had a hands-on , more direct approach to those respective Crown corporations, I fear, I fear very strongly having this government put any Minister more directly in control of hospital spending . Now, you might be the notable exception, or maybe you have the ability to ask those very incisive questions to find out what's going on in your department and in MHSC . You may have that, but some of your colleagues are just bloody disasters at doing that, and the proof is coming out daily. When you mention tha