2013 Legislative Session: First Session, 40th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Thursday, July 25, 2013

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 4, Number

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print)

ISSN 1499-2175 (Online)

CONTENTS

Page

Routine Business

Speaker's Statement

Service of legislative staff and messages of condolence regarding former legislative staff

Tributes

Paralympic world championships win by Parksville-Qualicum MLA

A. Dix

Introductions by Members

Tributes

Paralympic world championships win by Parksville-Qualicum MLA

M. Bernier

Introductions by Members

By-Election Results

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

Vancouver Pride Parade and human rights activism

S. Chandra Herbert

Painted Chair program for developmentally disabled adults

L. Larson

Hepatitis awareness and prevention

S. Hammell

Diabetes support activities of Nel Peach

G. Kyllo

Community spirit in Burnaby

J. Shin

Walk with the Dragon fundraiser by SUCCESS organization

R. Lee

Oral Questions

New ferry construction and support for B.C. shipbuilding industry

A. Dix

Hon. T. Stone

G. Holman

B.C. Ferries information on ferry evacuation plans

C. Trevena

Hon. T. Stone

Tax competitiveness of film industry

G. Heyman

Hon. M. de Jong

Centre of the Universe astronomy interpretive centre

L. Popham

Hon. N. Yamamoto

Petitions

L. Krog

D. Donaldson

G. Kyllo

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued)

S. Hammell

Hon. T. Lake

J. Darcy

S. Robinson

L. Popham

M. Elmore

J. Kwan

D. Eby

K. Corrigan

D. Routley

Estimates: Legislation

Estimates: Officers of the Legislature

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014

Hon. M. de Jong

Second Reading of Bills

Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014

Hon. M. de Jong

Committee of the Whole House

Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014

Report and

Third Reading of Bills

Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014

Royal Assent to Bills

Bill 2 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2013

Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation (continued)

Hon. J. Rustad

D. Donaldson

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services (continued)

G. Heyman

Hon. A. Wilkinson

D. Eby

[ Page 1127 ]

THURSDAY, JULY 25, 2013

The House met at 1:33 p.m.

[Madame Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Speaker's Statement

SERVICE OF LEGISLATIVE STAFF AND

MESSAGES OF CONDOLENCE REGARDING

FORMER LEGISLATIVE STAFF

Madame Speaker: Good afternoon, hon. Members. Today it gives me great pleasure to recognize the service of individuals who have worked in this building and are leaving us. On behalf of the Sergeant-at-Arms staff, Mario Bedard, sessional corridor supervisor for 11 years of service; Larry Dinn, sessional gallery supervisor for 14 years of service; Charles Timmons, security, 12 years of service; and Frank Walker, who worked in the Sergeant-at-Arms branch for 25 years. I'd ask the House to please acknowledge that service. [Applause.]

Hon. Members, we are also sad to hear of the passing of two of our Sergeant-at-Arms sessional security officers: John Fallifield, who retired in 2013 after seven years with security; and Alex Walls, who worked in security for 15 years. Condolences to their families.

Tributes

PARALYMPIC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS WIN

BY PARKSVILLE-QUALICUM MLA

A. Dix: I want to acknowledge on this side of the House — and I know all members of the House will join me in this — the extraordinary success of the member for Parksville-Qualicum today. Her victory in the 800 metres is a source of pride for Canadians, for British Columbians and all of us as members of the House. We wanted to pass on to her our congratulations. [Applause.]

Introductions by Members

Hon. B. Bennett: I have three introductions today.

[1335]

First of all, I'd like to introduce my constituency assistant. When we do this, we typically say that we have the best constituency assistant in the province. In this case, it's true. Her name is Jennifer Osmar, and she's from Cranbrook. Please help make me…. Help make her feel welcome.

Hon. S. Bond: That's why you need her.

Hon. B. Bennett: The member for Prince George–Valemount says that's why I need a CA.

I'd also like to introduce to the House today John Winter and Dan Baxter, who are up in the gallery somewhere, both from the B.C. Chamber of Commerce.

Thirdly, there is a young lady in the gallery somewhere. I don't see her, but I know she's up there. Her name is Laura Tennant, and she is the executive assistant to the Premier's chief of staff. She's worked here for us for five years, and she's never actually sat through a question period before. Please help me make Laura welcome.

L. Popham: I have a whole gaggle of neighbours to introduce. I have Deb Bestito, Dave Thibault, Deb Flurry, John Flurry, Diane Waller and Gordon Waller here visiting me today. We had lunch. They haven't seen me since I was elected in 2009, so it's very nice to spend some time with them.

D. Horne: I have someone here in the gallery. Oftentimes we talk about our constituency assistants and our campaign managers. Unfortunately, as the last campaign began my constituency assistant and campaign manager had an accident and was in hospital for three days. I have to say that my lovely wife, who is in the gallery today, stepped in and took over my campaign. I was very pleased with the work that she did and the support that she's given me over 18 years. Larissa Horne is in the gallery, and may the House make her welcome.

H. Bains: In the gallery is a very passionate and, I would say, very respected labour leader and my good friend Bruce Ferguson, who is a special representative and retired council president of Construction and Specialized Workers Union Local 1611. Please join with me and extend a warm welcome to my friend.

Hon. N. Yamamoto: Today in the gallery I have three members of the Yamamoto clan from North Vancouver. I have my sister-in-law Brenda Yamamoto — I can't see them, but I'm sure they're here somewhere — and my two nieces: Jennifer, who is 14, and Kami, who is 11. They are budding hockey players and, hopefully, future golf partners. Would the House please make them feel welcome.

G. Holman: I'd like to welcome three visitors from Saanich North and the Islands. In the gallery today are Mr. Kenny Podmore and his wife. Mr. Podmore is a councillor for the Sidney municipality and also their town crier. Also, Alicia Cormier, who is a councillor for Central Saanich municipality, is visiting here today. Would the House please make them feel welcome.

G. Kyllo: I'm very proud to introduce my lovely wife, Georgina, my sweetheart. We've been married almost 25 years. I'm extremely hopeful that not only will I get to

[ Page 1128 ]

the full 25 but that in October, our anniversary, I might get another 25 years.

Love you.

M. Mungall: Up in the gallery is one of this House's best staff people. She's my legislative assistant, Susan Farmer. May the House please make her welcome.

E. Foster: We quite often get up in the House to thank our employees and sometimes friends, but Robert Scherf has been in the building now for 2½ years. He was an assistant legislative assistant when he started. He became a legislative assistant and then was promoted to be the executive assistant in the Whip's office. He's done an outstanding job there for us.

[1340]

He started his career, actually, as the CA for the Minister of Health. The Minister of Health informed me that recently Robert took leave and worked on his election campaign. Without question, the toughest job he's had in his political life was getting the Minister of Health re-elected. [Laughter.]

Actually, he did say that to me.

Today is Robert's last day working in the precinct. He is heading for Toronto, the University of Toronto, where he is enrolled in a master of public policy. So if the House could please thank Robert for all his hard work on our behalf and wish him the best of luck in his endeavours.

R. Fleming: I wanted to introduce in the gallery today my constituency assistant, Marni Offman, who has worked for me for the last eight years. You can sympathize with that. Although our office is just 20 blocks or so from this building, this is her first time in those eight years attending question period, so make it a good one.

Next to her is Susan Farmer, who is my legislative assistant along with the member for Nelson-Creston. I would ask the House to make both of these women welcome here today.

Tributes

PARALYMPIC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS WIN

BY PARKSVILLE-QUALICUM MLA

M. Bernier: Most of us in life aspire for greatness. Some of us actually are lucky enough to achieve it. Some achieve it more often than others. I, also, want to acknowledge our member for Parksville-Qualicum. Not only did she achieve greatness; she's done it in fashion and represented us well. This morning, for her 800 metres, she worked hard and broke the Canadian record by almost 15 seconds, which also put her on top of the podium with gold, achieving a world record. So can the House please acknowledge that.

Introductions by Members

M. Bernier: When I think of oil and gas, when I think of mining and when I think of forestry, I think of my districts, and in my districts I think of the district of Chetwynd. It's my pleasure to have in the House today His Worship Mayor Merlin Nichols; the CAO, Doug Fleming; and the director of financial administration, Bill Caldwell, who took some time out of their busy lives up in the northeast of the province to come down and visit us here in the House. So please make them welcome.

Hon. T. Lake: Along with some of my colleagues, I'd like to acknowledge some members of our staff who will soon be leaving us. John Manning was a research officer when I first was elected in 2009. He has served in various capacities and now is a ministerial assistant for the Minister of Health. John is going on to other endeavours, and I wish him the very best.

I also wish Kellie O'Brien very much success as she looks forward to having her first child and going on maternity leave. Would the House please join me in wishing them both the very best of luck.

V. Huntington: I'd like the House to help me to welcome Antony Tsui, who is not only a member of my youth advisory council but is joining my office as an intern over the summer. I'd like the House to welcome him to the precinct.

Hon. M. de Jong: In the gallery today is Tracy Menzies. She generously lends her husband to me in his capacity as ministerial assistant and perhaps is more generous than she cares to be on the time front. Accompanying her, fulfilling the hopes, dreams and aspirations of children across British Columbia on a warm July afternoon, are their kids, Rebecca and Kaylee, and Kaylee's friend Sophie McMillan. I know there is no place that Tracy, Rebecca, Kaylee and Sophie would rather be than right here amongst us. Please make them feel welcome.

[1345]

By-Election Results

Clerk of the House:

July 23, 2013

Hon. Linda Reid, MLA

Speaker of the Legislative Assembly

Room 207

Parliament Buildings

Victoria, B.C. V8V 1X4

Dear Madame Speaker:

On June 11, 2013, this office received your warrant advising of a vacancy in the Legislative Assembly resulting from the resignation of Ben Stewart, member for the electoral district of Westside-Kelowna.

[ Page 1129 ]

On direction from the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, I issued a writ of election for the electoral district of Westside-Kelowna on June 12, ordering that a by-election be held to fill the vacancy. The writ specified general voting day to be July 10.

The by-election was held in accordance with the provisions of the Election Act, and the completed writ of election has been returned to me.

In accordance with

section 147(2) of the Election Act, I hereby certify the following individual to be elected to serve as a Member of the Legislative Assembly: Christy Clark, for the electoral district of Westside-Kelowna.

Sincerely,

Keith Archer, PhD

Chief Electoral Officer

British Columbia

Hon. S. Anton: I move that the certificate of the Chief Electoral Officer of the result of the election of the member be entered upon the Journals of the House.

Motion approved.

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

VANCOUVER PRIDE PARADE AND

HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISM

S. Chandra Herbert: Sunday, August 4, marks Vancouver's annual pride parade. Pride is a protest against discrimination and hatred and a celebration of how far we've come.

Gay, lesbian, bi and trans British Columbians have faced legislated discrimination for many years. They've been sent to prison; lost their jobs, housing and their kids; and faced outright verbal attacks by Premiers, members of B.C. and Canadian governments. But our community stood strong and reached out.

The fight against discrimination and for equality really took off in Vancouver in the early '70s. The Gay Alliance Towards Equality organized dances, marches and protests. These events evolved into today's pride parade and festival.

Early activists remember having to march with bags over their heads or having to hide behind trees when media or the police showed up, to avoid losing their jobs or ending up in jail. Not many were interested in standing up for gay and lesbian people, but a few brave members did. The NDP member for Vancouver-Burrard, Rosemary Brown, was the first to call for sexual orientation to be added to the human rights code in 1973. In the year I was born, Emery Barnes and Mike Harcourt were the first B.C. elected officials to ever march in a pride parade.

Pride continued to grow and help bring change. In the 1990s sexual orientation was finally added to the human rights code, and same-sex couples won the right to adopt, something my husband, Romi, and I are now working on.

Ten years ago, thanks to leadership from my constituents, we managed to defeat discriminatory marriage laws in the courts and forced the B.C. government to recognize love in same-sex marriage. But as we march in pride this year, we know there is more to be done.

We must explicitly recognize transgendered British Columbians in the human rights code, and we must ensure that our schools are safe for all students and take special action for lesbian, gay, bi and trans students, who face some of the worst discrimination. We will march on.

I invite every member of this House to get involved in their local pride celebrations and to come join us in the Vancouver Pride Parade. Happy pride.

PAINTED CHAIR PROGRAM FOR

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED ADULTS

L. Larson: I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you about a partnership between Community Living B.C. and a local service provider, Hovanes Community Services, in my home, Oliver. This is a new local success story.

The program is called the Painted Chair. The employees are all adults with developmental disabilities. These adults have a wide range of disabilities, requiring extra volunteers and staff and families to help with this venture. It is funded by Community Living B.C., and all of the profits go to the adults who participate in the program. This does not compromise any assistance they may already be receiving.

The adults and staff work together on refinishing individual pieces of simple wood furniture. They sand the furniture and repaint it in bright colours. They also clean and repair slightly used clothing. They work Monday to Friday, and on Wednesdays and Saturday mornings they open to the public to sell their refinished furniture and other items, giving them the opportunity to interact with the public at large.

[1350]

These adults are being taught transferable job skills that they can take to other areas of the community. They also have an opportunity to supplement their disability pensions. Their families are very grateful for this assistance in helping these challenged adults to enrich their lives. This program is only a few months old, and already there's a new-found pride and sense of accomplishment, which is evident by the smiles on their faces.

Thanks to Community Living B.C. for partnering with a local service provider in this innovative initiative to make the lives of adults with disabilities more productive and fulfilling.

HEPATITIS AWARENESS AND PREVENTION

S. Hammell: Hepatitis affects everyone, everywhere. "Know it, confront it, and get tested." This is the unofficial

[ Page 1130 ]

motto for World Hepatitis Day. The 63rd World Health Assembly has recognized Sunday, July 28, as World Hepatitis Day in order to enhance public awareness and education, reduce stigma, foster tolerance, acknowledge those affected and to explore ways to better address hepatitis B and C in the future.

British Columbia has the highest hepatitis B and hepatitis C infection rates in Canada. The appalling reality is that almost 60,000 British Columbians are living with hepatitis B, and 80,000 are living with hepatitis C. Many aren't even aware they have hepatitis and unknowingly pass it on to their children.

I firmly believe that education and knowledge are the keys to prevention. I'm proud to announce that Keys Housing and Health Solutions Society — formerly the South Fraser Community Services Society — located in Surrey is hosting its fourth annual World Hepatitis Day tomorrow, July 26, at Positive Haven.

So 500 million people are living with chronic hepatitis B and C worldwide, but despite the huge burden, there is widespread ignorance of the diseases. Hepatitis is often known as the silent disease and may not present symptoms until one's liver is severely damaged, and that process may take decades.

We are blessed to live in a country with universal health care. I urge everyone to take

part in the activities and spread awareness, and to get tested for hepatitis.

DIABETES SUPPORT ACTIVITIES

OF NEL PEACH

G. Kyllo: Any time an MLA in this House is asked what makes their home riding great, I have no doubt that one of the first things that comes to mind is people — local residents who exemplify kindness, generosity and dedication to their community.

In Salmon Arm we're lucky to have Petronella Peach. Nel Peach is known as a volunteer extraordinaire. Diagnosed with diabetes 30 years ago, she's used her experience to become a passionate advocate for people with diabetes, bringing attention to the issues they face on a daily basis.

I'll give you a rundown of some of the activities that Nel has been involved with. She's a tireless volunteer for the Canadian Diabetes Association. She has served as the regional chair for the association's interior B.C. region. She's been one of the top fundraisers for the association's interior Summer Surge. She's also been an impressive fundraiser for Team Diabetes and has run several of their national and international marathon events.

She's an active public speaker, sharing her diabetes journey with others. In 2010 she carried the Olympic torch in Salmon Arm, nominated for the honour by my MLA predecessor, Mr. George Abbott.

She's won numerous accolades, including the Queen's Diamond Jubilee; and the Canadian Diabetes Association's Regional Service Award and National Volunteer Award.

Did I mention that this hard-working, determined, young, inspiring member of my community turned 73 years old today? In keeping with her generous spirit, Nel is throwing a birthday party this weekend, but instead of gifts, she'll collect donations for her next Team Diabetes event in Amsterdam on Sunday, October 20.

I want to wish Nel Peach a very happy birthday and thank her for her tireless efforts to raise awareness and funds to support the diabetes community. Nel is truly amazing, and I wish her all the best as she continues to make positive contributions to our local community.

[1355]

COMMUNITY SPIRIT IN BURNABY

J. Shin: Hon. Members, as you know, life changes in an instant, and some changes are painful and come more trying than others. It can be that one missed shoulder check while changing lanes. It can be a notice on the board at work of the pending mass layoffs, and you're one of them. It can be a phone call from a family doctor about your test results, which had been the case for me.

Just like that, life as you know it is no longer the same. But the beautiful thing about these tribulations is that they often bring out the best in us, in each other. It can be a young family in Burnaby that celebrated the one-year anniversary of their baby girl Lauren Arneill's life-saving heart surgery by holding a garage sale for the hospital last Saturday. It can be a group of friendly neighbours in my riding's Montecito Towers toasting to the opening of their brand-new community swimming pool.

From a Bosnia-Herzegovina community hosting their second annual summer festival last month to the city inviting the symphony orchestra for the 25th year to Burnaby–Deer Lake for thousands of residents to share together our love for arts and culture, Burnaby is bustling with diversity and community spirit.

We are home to over 30 registered charities and non-profit organizations, from Burnaby Association for Community Inclusion to Dixon Transition Society. Volunteerism and activism are not what we have to remember to celebrate in Burnaby, because it has become our usual way of life.

I'm tremendously grateful to be a part of this wonderful culture that I witness and live every day. As the summer legislative session comes to an end, I'm excited to return home and do my small share in paying it forward.

On behalf of Burnaby-Lougheed, I would like to thank all the members of the House for your public service and wish everyone a happy summer of festivities back in your communities.

[ Page 1131 ]

WALK WITH THE DRAGON FUNDRAISER

BY SUCCESS ORGANIZATION

R. Lee: On Sunday over 13,000 enthusiastic participants joined SUCCESS for their 28th annual Walk with the Dragon in Stanley Park. The Walk with the Dragon is SUCCESS's largest fundraiser of the year, this year raising over $400,000 to support the wide range of programs delivered by the organization. Beginning at Lumbermen's Arch, the colourful 30-metre dragon led participants on a seven-kilometre walk along the scenic seawall.

The festivities also included lots of family fun, with live entertainment, food booths, carnival games and lucky draws. Amongst the thousands of participants was our Premier, showing support for the great work SUCCESS does for communities in B.C.

I, too, would like to extend my congratulations and gratitude to this wonderful organization for their great success on Sunday and for all that they do to help youth, families and, particularly, new immigrants in need here in B.C.

SUCCESS is comprised of three registered charities, one limited-liability social enterprise and one of British Columbia's largest social services agencies.

Celebrating over 40 years of service, SUCCESS and thousands of their volunteers have assisted communities throughout the Metro Vancouver area and Fort St. John. SUCCESS provides a wide range of social services, including settlement, employment, health, housing, and community and social development.

I ask all members to join me in congratulating SUCCESS on a wonderful 28th annual Walk with the Dragon and to show support for the tremendous work this organization continues to do for our communities.

Oral Questions

NEW FERRY CONSTRUCTION AND SUPPORT

FOR B.C. SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRY

A. Dix: Earlier this week B.C. Ferries announced it would be proceeding to buy three new intermediate-class ferries to replace the Queen of Burnaby and the Queen of Nanaimo . My question is to the minister responsible for B.C. Ferries. What assurances can he provide that these ferries will be built in British Columbia?

[1400]

Hon. T. Stone: The government absolutely supports the creation of jobs in B.C.'s shipbuilding industry. In fact, this government has done a tremendous amount over the last couple of years that has led to a new renaissance of the B.C. shipbuilding industry.

That being said, it is important, also, to understand that this government is balancing its budget this year and is going to ensure that on a go-forward basis, we are respecting the taxpayers' dollar at every opportunity we get.

B.C. Ferries has its own procurement process. We are going to respect B.C. Ferries' procurement process. We understand that B.C. Ferries, as they go through their procurement, is going to balance the desire that I think we all have to create jobs here in British Columbia with ensuring that we're getting the best possible value for B.C. taxpayers.

Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition on a supplemental.

A. Dix: It was the Premier who said in the fall of 2011 that ferries in B.C. would be built in British Columbia. Now, apparently, B.C. jobs come number two.

I'll tell you where we stand. We believe in B.C. workers, we believe in B.C. companies, we believe in the B.C. shipbuilding industry, and we believe these ferries should be built right here in British Columbia.

I mean, it was only yesterday, hon. Speaker…

Interjections.

Madame Speaker: Members.

A. Dix: …that the Minister of Jobs said: "We expect British Columbians to be the first priority and the first in line." So here's a chance to show it. Here's a chance to show it.

Will the minister say today that these ferries will be built right here in British Columbia by B.C. workers?

Hon. T. Stone: The Leader of the Opposition and the members opposite yet again completely fail to demonstrate any understanding of what it takes to build a world-class, competitive industry in British Columbia. I certainly am not going to be lectured by the members opposite on how to create jobs. This government brought in a jobs plan two years ago, and 50,000 jobs have been created in British Columbia as a result of that plan.

I'll remind the members opposite that the last major procurement of ferries, the C-class ferries, actually came in $30 million under budget, and they were on time, which is good value for taxpayers.

Finally, it is a fact that this government insisted on getting good value, best value for the taxpayers' dollar, which is why we have a shipbuilding industry here in British Columbia that is competitive and that can compete on the world stage.

Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition on a supplemental.

A. Dix: I know the government's position. I know their position: "We build a few more ferries in Germany, and our shipbuilding industry will be really great." I mean,

[ Page 1132 ]

you either believe in the industry, or you don't believe in the industry. You either believe we should build ships in British Columbia, or you don't. And before the election the Premier said just that. Now, after the election, the government is saying a different story, hon. Speaker — a different story.

An Hon. Member: We're not afraid to compete.

A. Dix: With the record of overruns by this government…. They yell about overruns. With the record of overruns in this government, they should be afraid to compete. The fact of the matter is our workers….

Interjections.

Madame Speaker: Members.

[1405]

A. Dix: The government asks itself whether we're having a discussion about B.C. Ferries. Social Credit Premiers, NDP Premiers and, up to this government, Liberal Premiers believed in using our ferry system to build a shipbuilding industry in British Columbia.

Our workers can do the job. Our companies can do the job. Will this government commit today to building every one of these ferries right here in British Columbia?

Hon. T. Stone: Well, let's refresh everyone's memory here for a moment, shall we. The last time the members opposite were in power and they had an opportunity to revitalize B.C.'s shipbuilding industry, what exactly did they do? They said they would build fast ferries, and they would be built for $70 million, "right down to the cost of the toilet paper" — $70 million all in.

At the end of the day, what did British Columbians get? We got fast ferries that were really never used, at a cost of $463 million. The last time these fast ferries were seen, they were on a barge on the way to Abu Dhabi.

Our government recently negotiated a deal with Seaspan to assist it with a federal contract. That federal contract, which was awarded to B.C. shipbuilding, is going to result in an $8 billion investment in our industry here. That's because of this government.

G. Holman: So it's fine for the federal government to build ships in British Columbia but not okay for the B.C. government to do that. A jobs plan that has resulted in negative 30,000 private sector jobs in British Columbia — that's a plan. The Premier talked about B.C. building ferries for the world, but the reality is the world is building ferries for British Columbia. Three ferries built in Germany at a cost of $540 million, and now the prospect of more ferries being built elsewhere, also forgoing all of the spinoff benefits to the B.C. economy.

In the estimates for the Transportation Minister, it became clear that there isn't even a criterion in the procurement process that considers where the ferries will be built, and the Jobs Minister admitted that the government has done no analysis whatsoever of the potential economic benefits of building ferries here in British Columbia.

Let's not forget that B.C. Ferries is moving to design standardization, which means whichever shipbuilder gets the contract has the advantage for future ferries. That means if B.C. doesn't get in on the ground now, it won't have these contracts in the future.

My question to the minister is: will he stand up for workers and their families in B.C.'s shipbuilding industry and tell B.C. Ferries that these vessels need to be built here?

Hon. T. Stone: Well, it's nothing short of galling, yet not surprising, that the members opposite have no faith whatsoever in the ability of B.C.'s shipbuilding industry to compete on the world stage. B.C.'s shipbuilding industry is going to be able to compete in this procurement process. B.C. Ferries has opened it up worldwide.

[1410]

I think all members of this House would hope that B.C. companies or Canadian companies would be successful in their bids, but we're going to let the procurement process run its course. And you know what? This side of the House has full confidence in the ability of the B.C. shipbuilding industry to compete on an equal playing field with all other companies in the world.

G. Holman: So does this side of the House. I'll remind the minister that government has no problem interfering with so-called independent entities when it comes to levying a wheelchair tax on the disabled. Interference in that case is fine.

Under the B.C. Liberals, B.C. Ferries is in disarray. Fares have skyrocketed, with a further 12 percent increase planned over the next three years. Ridership is down by 10 percent.

Now to add insult to injury, this Liberal government is going to let B.C. Ferries once again build new vessels elsewhere rather than right here in B.C. It's going to pass up a historic opportunity to build on the federal shipbuilding contract and set our shipbuilding industry on a course to be internationally competitive for generations. It will also pass up on the jobs, the income and the provincial tax revenue benefits that would accrue from building ferries here in British Columbia.

Why is this government turning its back on this opportunity, on the jobs that families would benefit from, from building these ferries here and also from the provincial tax revenues that would be generated by building the ferries right here in British Columbia?

Hon. T. Stone: Well, the best thing that happened to jobs in British Columbia happened on May 14. As you

[ Page 1133 ]

know, hon. Speaker, opportunities like a growing, thriving shipbuilding industry, like we have here in British Columbia, are exactly the kind of jobs that this government wants to see created.

As I said a moment ago, in the past two years over 50,000 jobs have been created across British Columbia specific to the shipbuilding industry. Since the Seaspan contract was awarded, jobs have gone up by almost 2,000 in B.C.'s shipbuilding industry as they prepare to fulfil one of the largest orders in B.C.'s history. At the end of the day, the members opposite have no ground to stand on whatsoever in lecturing us on this side of the floor about job creation.

We are going to let B.C. Ferries run the course on their procurement, and we are confident that B.C. companies are going to be more than able to compete, moving forward.

B.C. FERRIES INFORMATION ON

FERRY EVACUATION PLANS

C. Trevena: Under the B.C. Liberals, B.C. Ferries have jacked up ferry rates. They've sent shipbuilding jobs overseas for the C-class vessels, and it looks like, from what the minister is saying today, they'd be quite happy to see that happen again.

Not only are they failing to look after the public interests in the economic sense; they're failing to uphold the bare minimum standards for openness. I'd like to ask the Minister of Transportation to explain why a freedom-of-information request about evacuation plans for each individual vessel in the fleet — information about passenger safety, information which is clearly in the public interest — has come back with page after page blanked out.

[1415]

Hon. T. Stone: Obviously, safety is the number one consideration that this government has, that B.C. Ferries has with respect to their vessels. If the member opposite has a concern about a freedom-of-information request that's been brought forward, there is a process to inquire further about that directly with B.C. Ferries.

I will say that moving forward, as B.C. Ferries determines its procurement process that has just begun a couple days ago, they are going to…. The number one priority is safety; the number two priority is reliability. We would hope that there's also some consideration of a cleaner fuel for propulsion.

At the end of the day, as I've said several times here today, we are hopeful that B.C. shipbuilders will compete and will compete strongly in this procurement process.

Madame Speaker: The Member for North Island on a supplemental.

C. Trevena: The minister is responsible for B.C. Ferries. I'm talking about the current fleet, some vessels of which are almost 50 years old. Because the minister is clearly not aware of the freedom-of-information request, which is readily available on B.C. Ferries' website, I'd like to give him examples.

The Powell River Queen . I cite interest there. It's one of the minor routes. I travel on it regularly. Under "General description" it says: "The vessel is fitted with" — blank — "ESS slide systems" — blank. Point 2 is blank. Point 3 is blank — "rescue boat" — blank. "In charge evacuation" — blank.

On page 8, "Special needs passengers must be identified at the beginning of the emergency and" — blank.

The Coastal-class, those expensive German vessels — page after blanked-out page. "Abandon ship" checkoff is blank.

The Spirit-class. Let's look at evacuation at sea. Again, I quote: "When the vessel is at sea and a developing emergency necessitates the evacuation of the vessel, the following plan shall be used as guidance for the orderly evacuation of the vessel." Then apart from the words "distribution of life jackets" and "medical assistance," it's all blanked out — even the location of life jackets is blanked out. Perhaps there is no plan.

Madame Speaker: Member, is there a question?

C. Trevena: Yes, there is, Madame Speaker.

I'd like to know from the Minister of Transportation why the evacuation plans for B.C. Ferries are distributed on a need-to-know basis.

Hon. T. Stone: I will say to the member opposite that every member on this side of the floor, as I'm sure everyone in the House, holds the safety of the travelling public on our ferries with the highest regard, and of the highest importance.

I would also like to say that B.C. Ferries operates with the highest safety standards in the world. I want to thank the hard-working men and women of B.C. Ferries who diligently, day in, day out, do everything in their power to ensure that the ferries we travel on are as safe as they absolutely can be.

TAX COMPETITIVENESS

OF FILM INDUSTRY

G. Heyman: Yesterday in estimates the Minister of Jobs responded to concerns that I expressed about the flight of B.C. film and TV production by saying that production numbers were actually heading up this year. Yet industry producers here in British Columbia say that production so far this year is actually down by about 15 percent.

One of the bright spots of hope was the impending

[ Page 1134 ]

production in Vancouver of Fantastic Four. But yesterday that hope for underemployed local film crews was dashed when a studio spokesperson confirmed that the Fantastic Four is moving production from Vancouver to Louisiana, which has a more competitive tax regime.

This government has succeeded in doing what no other supervillain has, and that's to scare away the Fantastic Four .

[1420]

Madame Speaker, the Minister of Transportation has said that this government understands competition and knows how to be competitive. My question to the Minister of Finance is: will he make B.C.'s tax credit regime in the film and television industry competitive with other jurisdictions in North America?

Hon. M. de Jong: Thank you for the question. It's a source of immense pride, I think — for all British Columbians and members on both sides of the House — how the film and production sector has grown. It has done so, in large measure, because of the talents of the people who work in that industry — some of it very unique, in terms of the skills they acquire. It's something that we are entitled to be immensely proud of.

It's also, in part, attributable to a tax structure that has been created, a form of subsidy for the industry that actually pays back on the basis of the amount of labour costs that those productions incur. In the year ahead we expect that amount to reach $380 million, Madame Speaker. That's 380 million tax dollars from hard-working British Columbians that goes to reimburse companies for the cost of labour associated with those productions. We think it's a sound investment, and it is an investment that has grown dramatically year over year, signalling continued growth in that sector.

It's good news for the province and good news for the sector, but it is not a limitless subsidy that British Columbia taxpayers can afford. We will continue to ensure that an appropriate balance is achieved.

Madame Speaker: Vancouver-Fairview on a supplemental.

G. Heyman: We're all proud of B.C.'s film and television industry. We're proud of the skills and the infrastructure that have been built. But as this government sits idly by, the B.C. film industry is going up in flames like the Human Torch.

The Fantastic Four promised hundreds of jobs to British Columbia workers. As I'm sure the minister is aware, because this….

Interjections.

Madame Speaker: Members.

G. Heyman: As I'm sure the minister is aware, because this study has been available for two weeks, the industry just commissioned a study on the economic contributions of film and TV in Canada. It shows a significant number of both direct and indirect small business jobs created by the investment, as well as significant payment in provincial taxes.

B.C. currently has a 27 percent share of production in Canada. The math is pretty simple; it's not hard. And the numbers are impressive — including the fact that the industry returns in British Columbia, if you apply that formula, double the amount of tax credits that the minister referred to. That's a good deal for taxpayers. It's a great economic stimulus and job creator.

My question to the Minister of Finance again: will this minister and this government heed the call of the industry, producers and workers and support B.C.'s job-generating industry with a competitive tax regime, or will the government's message continue to be: "It's clobbering time for the B.C. film industry"?

Hon. M. de Jong: Well, holy corporate subsidy, Batman. I always appreciate the commentary from the Boy Wonder over there.

[1425]

I am unaccustomed and have been…. During the course of this debate, I've tried to reconcile what, in some instances, has been a historic aversion to the kind of corporate subsidy that the member now advocates with gusto.

There is no disagreement concerning the benefits that have accrued to British Columbia, the unique talents that have been developed here and the desire to ensure that those talents can be put to work. That's good for B.C. That's good for Canada.

But rather than continue with a process that sees one jurisdiction in Canada competing with another to see how much money we can send to Hollywood, which is precisely what that member is advocating, I believe and the government believes that it makes more sense for us in Canada, in jurisdictions like British Columbia and Ontario, to work together and maximize the benefits of the film and production sector for all Canadians and all British Columbians.

CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE

ASTRONOMY INTERPRETIVE CENTRE

L. Popham: The Centre of the Universe is an interpretive education centre for the Saanich observatory. It helps kindle a love of science in thousands of children and youth every year. It's an irreplaceable tourist attraction and educational resource, and it's set to close in one month.

Given that we need to be doing more to encourage our young people to enter the sciences, can the Minister of

[ Page 1135 ]

Technology and Innovation outline what steps this government has taken to advocate to the federal government to keep the Centre of the Universe open?

Hon. N. Yamamoto: I have to say it was a real positive sign that the tourism industries continued to see positive growth even after the huge year of the 2010 Winter Olympics, which this side of the House supported.

Year after year this industry has seen continued growth in British Columbia, contributing to our provincial GDP despite the economic challenges we're seeing in the rest of the world.

This government has created Destination B.C. This is a great example where government has listened to the tourism industry and has said that this is an organization that's going to take us to the next step. This is an organization that will ensure that we partner with industry and with government to ensure that this spectacular province is marketed as a visitor destination to the rest of the world.

L. Popham: Houston, we have a problem, if that's the minister's answer.

Canada's renowned astronaut Chris Hadfield has a family member living in Saanich South. She spoke to me this morning about how proud she is that he has helped to inspire so many Canadian children, and she emphasized just how important it is to take every opportunity to promote science to our children, because they are the future.

This is a non-partisan issue. Will the minister work with me and other concerned citizens to press the federal government to reconsider this decision? I have a petition in my office if the minister would like to start by signing it.

Hon. N. Yamamoto: Of course we're going to work with our partners in industry and other levels of government to ensure that we maximize potential for tourism in British Columbia.

The provincial tourism strategy is a five-year strategy entitled Gaining the Edge. It will focus on government and stakeholders….

[1430]

Interjections.

Madame Speaker: Members. Members will come to order.

Hon. N. Yamamoto: Our provincial tourism strategy is a five-year strategy. It's called Gaining the Edge. It will ensure that we focus our attention on ensuring that government, industry and our stakeholders work together to ensure that we grow our revenues in tourism to $18 billion.

Tourism is so important to this government that the Premier has appointed not one but two ministers responsible for tourism in British Columbia.

[End of question period.]

Petitions

D. Donaldson: I'm presenting a petition on behalf of the residents of the Kitwanga valley and nearby communities. It's a petition for high-speed Internet service. It says: "Together we request immediate action to bring this essential service to the people of Kitwanga." High-speed Internet service was promised by the B.C. provincial government, and now, due to a dispute between Telus and the provincial government, it is on hold indefinitely.

G. Kyllo: I'm presenting a petition on behalf of approximately 900 residents of Shuswap. They are encouraging the Columbia-Shuswap regional district, the Shuswap Lake integrated planning process, the Ministry of Transportation and the provincial Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resources to work together with property owners in the Shuswap to find a way to authorize docks.

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: My first duty, lest the staff chase me down: please, Members, as we draw to the close of the day, we are obliged to clean out our desks. It will make the job of the very helpful and diligent staff that much easier.

Before we get to that point, however, there is work to be done — in this chamber, the Committee of Supply, estimates of the Ministry of Health; in the Douglas Fir Room, the estimates of the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations; and in the Birch Room, continuing estimates of the Ministry of Technology.

[1435]

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Chouhan in the chair.

The committee met at 2:36 p.m.

On Vote 28: ministry operations, $16,403,475,000 (continued) .

[ Page 1136 ]

S. Hammell: We'll continue with a few more questions on mental health. The first one I'd like to talk about is the mental health plan. The mental health plan was put into effect in November 2010 — Healthy Minds, Healthy People. It was released then, and there are some very clear goals and objectives to meet over the period of time.

It has had two updates, as I understand it — one in 2011 and one in 2012 — and the 2013 update is yet to be released. Could I ask the minister when that report will be released?

Hon. T. Lake: The ten-year mental health plan — Healthy Minds, Healthy People — undergoes an annual report each year, and the second annual progress report was approved in February of 2013. I have some bullets here, sort of summarizing the second annual progress report. But to the member, there would presumably be a third annual report that would then be approved in early 2014.

[1440]

S. Hammell: Thank you, Minister, for that clarification — not for me. Thank you very much.

There are six fairly clear objectives in terms of the plan. I understand that the two updates were not very specific in terms of the goals and objectives, in terms of achievement. In objective No. 1 there were 68 percent of British Columbians, and you want them to report that they have positive mental health. Can you give me any indication of the progress on that objective to date?

Hon. T. Lake: There were six milestones for achievement to accomplish the three goals that were outlined in the ten-year mental health plan. As the member mentioned, the first goal was to have the number of British Columbians who experience positive mental health to be increased by 10 percent by 2018, and that was after 2008, when British Columbians self-reported that 68 percent experienced positive mental health.

So the goal would be that over that ten-year period, to 2018, we would increase that to 78 percent. We are only two years into the plan at this stage, so we don't tally or do a poll or a census on this particular measure at this point.

Hopefully, as the program is rolled out, the number of British Columbians reporting positive mental health will improve, but we don't have an interim target that is to be achieved at this particular time in the ten-year plan.

S. Hammell: Minister, when do you plan to take that measurement?

[1445]

Hon. T. Lake: In this type of population health study, sometimes the data is achievable through other censuses that are done in the province. If we can't get that data from other information that is provided through other data gathering — in other words, unrelated specifically to this milestone achievement — then we will, in a reasonable period of time through the plan, likely in 2014 or 2015, go and measure this level of positive mental health to assess our success in this area.

We don't have a specific date. But if we can't gather that data through other concurrent information-gathering that is taking place, we will go out and find that information separately in 2014 or into 2015.

S. Hammell: To me, it just doesn't make sense that you have a plan with very specific targets, milestones for achievement. You've laid this plan out over a period of ten years, and you have not identified how you're going to measure the specific milestones that you've set out. You have no idea whether it's through census gathering or through some kind of survey.

It certainly doesn't give anyone very much confidence in the process. My understanding is this plan was published or produced or presented in 2010. We're 2013, three years into it. This measurement should be sitting at 70 percent or somewhere up in there if we're going to get a ten-year 10 percent growth. This is your plan, the plan that you produced. There should be some way within the Health Ministry of measuring the milestones that you published.

The next milestone is: "The number of young B.C. children who are vulnerable in terms of social-emotional development will decrease by 15 percent by 2015." The measurement, as I understand it, was taken in 2008. It's now 2013, two years off from 2015. Have you measured it? Are you close to meeting your goals?

This isn't a criticism. It's just asking for information. You've set a goal. Are you near it? And, if you are not measuring at all, I find that astonishing.

[1450]

Hon. T. Lake: For the record, the first indicator, which is the number of British Columbians who experience positive mental health, that data actually comes from the Canadian community health survey that is carried out every two years. I apologize that we don't have for the member the latest survey, but I can provide that to her directly.

The second indicator is the number of young B.C. children who are vulnerable in terms of social, emotional development. That is taken from the early development index. This is performed at the kindergarten level here in British Columbia every two years. Again, I do not have the latest data available. I can make that available to her at a later date.

These are regular surveys that are done in these areas, so that data should be available to us, and of course, I will ensure that it is available to the member.

S. Hammell: Thank you, Minister. I had assumed that

[ Page 1137 ]

you would expect these questions, given that this is the plan and these are your targets, so I was a bit surprised that the information wasn't coming. I do appreciate you making that effort to give me the information.

I'll ask you one more because it's…. I understand there are six, so I would appreciate being brought up to date on all six. But I will ask No. 3, because it is in 2014, which is just a year away. It says that 10 percent fewer B.C. students — and I find this such an amazing goal, and it's laudable — "will first use alcohol or cannabis before the age of 15" — 10 percent fewer. That was measured originally in 2008. There's a reporting that is on the record that is embedded in this milestone.

I'm wondering, given it's next year that you expect that to be 10 percent fewer B.C. students, if you have any indication of where you are in terms of that goal.

Hon. T. Lake: I agree with the member. This is a very, I would say, impressive goal to reach, because we all know that the earlier adolescents start to begin drinking alcohol or employing the use of cannabis, the more likely they are to have issues lifelong with those substances. So it is important to try and delay as much as possible or prevent entirely the exposure to those two substances, which we know can, if used incorrectly, cause problems for many people.

[1455]

The initial survey, done in 2008 on this indicator, was performed by the McCreary Centre's B.C. adolescent health survey. The other surveys we talked about were done every two years. This one is only done every five years. I understand that the one now that we are relying upon is the 2013 data. It is being analyzed at the moment, Member. We do not have that information and will probably not have all of the information finalized until the spring of 2014.

I am, however, informed by our medical officer of health, Dr. Perry Kendall, that we are trending in the right direction. Whether we can reach that stretch goal of a 10 percent decrease remains to be seen, but I'm told that the indicators look promising at the moment.

S. Hammell: I have many more questions, but I am going to run out of time. There are a couple of others I'd like to mention and maybe a couple I could get you to send to me.

The first one I'd like to touch on is the $18.4 million that is the grant to the Community Action Initiative, I think it is. It comes from a variety of places. If I recall — over a period of time you don't necessarily remember everyone you met with for every reason — I do remember meeting with this particular group. At that time I expressed some concern that the regional distribution of the money, this $18.4 million, was not strong.

In particular — I don't want to sound parochial — I did notice that there was very little spending at that time in the Surrey area. We have challenges in these regions and these areas just as anyone else does. So if the minister would get to me or through…. Well, I'll ask the minister to get to me any kind of breakdown he may have of how that money is spent and whether it is distributed regionally in some kind of way that somewhat recognizes that there is this challenge in all districts.

The other issue that I would like to go back to — I know we've canvassed it before, and I'll just take a minute on it — is the 500 additional addiction spaces that have been promised. We did canvass that quite considerably here. I understand that the money is to be taken from the base budget of the health authorities. I also understand that the health authorities are going to have…. There is an attempt to bend the curve in terms of health care, and that, of course, is quite understandable.

But I do wonder how much the health authorities can absorb promises made outside the table and still deal with the increase in the aging population, which my understanding is, is going to impact about 1 percent on the budget. There is another 1.4 in terms of population. There are a number of other constant hits on the base budget, without additional money for new addiction beds or new money for preventative health or new money from a number of other things that need to come forward or are coming forward from the provincial level.

The consequence, I think, given that you have this kind of Faustian arrangement with keeping the budget firm, having these built-in pressures…. The consequence has to be, it seems, cutting services, unless there are significant savings in terms of other parts of the budget, and I certainly hope that that is successful. But we see, on this side, the beginning of cuts to community services such as the arts spaces project, as well as ACE and a number of other programs.

[1500]

So to ask the question to the minister: does he see in the immediate future a number of cuts to the community-level programs?

Hon. T. Lake: I answered this question yesterday. I'm happy to answer it again. The number of community substance-use beds has increased 196 percent from 2003 with the addition of 1,715 beds, so that's more than 171 beds per year over that ten-year period. Over the next four years we will be adding 500, which would be, on average, 125 a year. We are quite confident, given the funding that will be provided to regional health authorities, that they will be able to meet that goal.

J. Darcy: To the minister: to give you a bit of a break, we will move into issues related to pharmaceuticals.

As the minister is well aware, and as we have discussed in this House, pharmaceuticals continue to be a major cost driver in the health care system, the second-highest cost driver in the system. Certainly, on this side of the

[ Page 1138 ]

House, we have pressed for many years that the B.C. government take a stronger position on generic drug pricing to, at least, match Ontario's. As you have heard me say before, we're certainly pleased that the government has been moving in that direction, and that is certainly beginning to have an impact in driving down drug costs.

Nine months ago, in November of last year, then Health Minister Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid said the provincial savings — this is referring to generic drug pricing — will be reinvested in the B.C. health care system, some of it in PharmaCare.

My first question to the minister is: are the savings from generics being redirected into the health budget as originally promised or into general revenue?

Hon. T. Lake: Any savings that accrue to the Health Ministry, obviously, are utilized by the government as a whole. That is the Finance Minister who is responsible for that, and then the Finance Minister, in creating a budget, allocates a certain amount of money to the Health Ministry. Any savings that we accrue allow us to continue to have increases year over year — over the next three years an additional 2.4 billion new dollars added to the health care budget. Without those savings in pharmaceuticals, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to see those increases of that magnitude in the health care budget.

J. Darcy: I'd asked about a specific commitment that the previous Health Minister had made in this regard. You're saying that that's not necessarily the case? The money might come back to health care but not necessarily?

Hon. T. Lake: Without those savings in the PharmaCare budget, it would be very difficult for the Finance Minister to add $2.4 billion back to the health care ministry over the next four years. Those savings allow us to have an increase, so there's a straight line between savings that we make in the largest ministry in government and the increases that we are able to make year over year as an investment in the health of British Columbians.

J. Darcy: Thank you to the minister. We spoke briefly yesterday about the comprehensive economic trade agreement with the European Union, particularly as it relates to generic drugs. My first question to the minister is: what is the latest calculation on the savings that British Columbia will lose if patent protections are extended under the comprehensive economic trade agreement with the European Union?

[1505]

Hon. T. Lake: As we mentioned yesterday, this potential trade agreement between Canada and the European Union has caused some concern for British Columbia — not just for British Columbia but other provinces. We have expressed that concern. We also understand that the federal government is open to some discussions on how to mitigate the impact on provinces.

It's difficult to be precise on the impact. There have been numbers tossed around. In a report from Canadian Press, for instance, officials at Industry Canada and Health Canada looked at the proposed patent term restoration system the EU demand included and said that it could cost anywhere between $14.7 million and $1.95 billion, depending on the final patent term that's negotiated. As you can imagine, there's a huge, huge variation in the potential impact on provincial PharmaCare costs.

We expect that future launches of new generic drugs — in other words, those coming off patent and becoming generic — on average, would be a $21 million aggregate savings for PharmaCare. Obviously, delayed entry of new generics due to extension of the patent regime could eliminate some, if not all, of those $21 million a year.

J. Darcy: Can you give me that range again?

Hon. T. Lake: The information I have is that it could be between $14.7 million and $1.95 billion, meaning there's a huge range depending on where this agreement lands. If the patent protection was extended six months, versus ten years, you can imagine that the quantum is quite different.

We do expect that new drugs that currently are brand names, that are coming off patent protection to become generics, would save us about $21 million a year as they come off of the patent protection. Obviously, as that date is extended, if that is the case in this new agreement, some, if not all, of that $21 million savings to the PharmaCare program could be lost.

That's why we, along with the members opposite, are concerned about this. We are discussing this with our federal counterparts. We'll continue to pursue our interests, on behalf of British Columbia taxpayers, to ensure that any impact of this agreement is mitigated by the federal government.

J. Darcy: I understand the government is now expressing concern and is in discussions and working, hopefully, with other Premiers in order to try and address this issue.

Perhaps the minister can enlighten us on this. I understand that what the government is advocating at this time to the federal government is what you refer to as mitigation of some of the potential negative impacts, some of the costly impacts, and that essentially it would compensate provinces — but effectively, also, serve as a subsidy of sorts to the international drug companies, who are the ones who've been lobbying very, very strongly for these changes that would have a detrimental effect in Canada.

It seems to me it's problematic on a number of levels, and that's something that you've heard expressed from

[ Page 1139 ]

this side of the House. Surely, the goal of our actions here is not to allow the international drug companies to get what they want in this entire process.

[1510]

Also, what appears to be being advanced by the government, by the Premier, in these discussions would have no consequences, would not solve problems for individuals whose drug costs are going up, whose premiums are going up, whose co-pays are going up, whose deductibles are going up; or health plans, drug plans, where co-pays, deductibles, and so on, and costs are also going up.

I wonder if you could explain in some more detail, Minister, what the government's position is on this. What position is being advanced at the federal level and hopefully, then, in those negotiations with the EU? Does the minister not agree that it really does not solve the problem for a whole lot of people whose drug costs are going up?

Hon. T. Lake: I can't help but point out a little bit of irony in the member's comments about subsidizing corporations when not less than an hour ago in this House they were recommending increased subsidies to multinational film corporations, who already benefit from a $330 million labour benefit here in British Columbia.

We have expressed our concern about this negotiation. The Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Labour is engaged with the federal government to represent B.C.'s interests. Our pharmaceutical services division is providing that minister with advice on pharmaceutical patent issues.

We have expressed our concern that if a trade agreement were negotiated that significantly impacted drug costs, financial compensation would be required from the federal government.

I'm sure that the member, along with this side of the House, can express her concern to the federal government, which is the level of government responsible for this. We will continue to advocate on behalf of British Columbians to protect the savings that we hope to gain from drugs coming off of patent protection.

J. Darcy: I didn't think that we were…. I find those comments quite unnecessary. I could go back and talk…. With respect, Minister, I could pull out and try and replay the tape or the transcript of the tape of what the Premier said on The Bill Good Show about the reason the government's position had shifted was in order to protect private interests, in order to protect the pharmaceutical drug companies. I don't think that particularly advances our discussion today.

What we're trying to engage in is a discussion about drug costs, their impacts on the health care system. It was a question about what position this government is taking in those federal discussions and then federal negotiations.

If the minister wants to talk about shipbuilding or the film industry, perhaps we could move those to another room.

I'll move on to another question. There has been considerable focus on reducing generic drug prices — certainly, a very, very important part of the picture of reducing drug costs. However, there have also been longstanding recommendations, including from the 2006 Auditor General report, that also apply to negotiating better prices from brand-name pharmaceutical manufacturers.

Can the minister please provide an update on the government's efforts to reduce brand-name drug prices?

[1515]

Hon. T. Lake: There has been considerable effort on the part of provinces and territories to work towards a pan-Canadian drug-pricing system. At one time it looked promising that the federal government would actually come on board and we would have a truly pan-Canadian pricing policy.

As the member is likely aware, brand-name drugs in Canada are higher, in many instances, than they are in other countries. Obviously, the more people — in terms of provinces, territories, the size of the market — gives you greater bargaining power to bring those prices down.

Not having the federal government's commitment, the Premiers of the Council of the Federation, the provinces and territories, have affirmed their support and commitment to a pan-Canadian drug-pricing alliance. That's led by Ontario and Nova Scotia. Through that alliance, we have agreed to accelerate and expand the pan-Canadian pricing alliance on brand-name drugs, and that work is being led by Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia.

As of June 2013 the pan-Canadian drug-pricing alliance has completed negotiations for 11 brand-name products and is actively reviewing 19 others. B.C. led five of those 11 completed negotiations.

Work is ongoing. I can tell you that we will continue to work with our provincial and territorial counterparts. We have another meeting coming up in October in Ontario, and we'll continue to try to add more of the commonly used brand-name drugs that we can add to this alliance so that we can continue to drive costs down.

J. Darcy: To the minister: when you refer to a certain number of specific drugs, is that what is referred to as product-listing agreements? Or is that something that's being done provincially?

Hon. T. Lake: Product listings are done by individual provinces.

J. Darcy: To the minister: can you please share with us, then, information on how many product listings are in place now and how many are under negotiation?

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[ Page 1140 ]

Hon. T. Lake: Product listing agreements are negotiations that occur between a drug company and individual provinces. It does involve a price negotiation and involves the Drug Benefit Council, which would look at the efficacy and effectiveness and appropriateness of the drug.

A world price is sort of a public price, but each province will negotiate its own price with the different drug companies. That is a confidential negotiation that goes on. As the member can imagine, in order to obtain the best price, that information is kept confidential, so I can't disclose how many product listing agreements we have ongoing or in process at the moment.

J. Darcy: The reason for asking the question was that this arose in the public accounts briefing. There was something expressed there by the minister responsible about product listing agreements. I wasn't asking about which specific ones they were, just a sense of how many product listing agreements were actually already in place.

Hon. T. Lake: I'm not clear on the reference to public accounts, and I'm unsure if I'm able to disclose that information to the member, so I will perhaps arrange to get the proper reference from the member to public accounts, and then we can make sure that we have the ability to release that information. If we can, then we will.

J. Darcy: Thank you to the minister. I'm not exactly aware of what they said in public accounts either, but I know that it was about product listing agreements, and it seemed relevant to our discussion about drugs and drug prices. So I thought I would ask that question.

Continuing on, we've already spoken of the critical importance of adopting a tougher position on generic drug pricing. Drug expenditures are, as you are aware, the function of both price and utilization. The 2013-14 budget identifies that a 1 percent change in utilization will result in a $10 million increase in the PharmaCare budget.

Over the past 18 years our province has become a centre of excellence in rigorous drug evaluation research that determines the efficacy of treatments so that PharmaCare covers and physicians prescribe drugs that are safe, effective and provide maximum value for money.

The work of the therapeutics initiative and of the ministry's pharmaceutical services division is a key reason why British Columbia has become a leader in evidence-based decision-making and why our province consistently records the lowest drug costs per capita among the provinces. However, as we have discussed on other occasions, including in question period over the past year, this kind of drug evaluation has been stalled.

The concern here, Minister, is about both the safety of drugs and also about cost of drugs. Safety for British Columbians — also, as I mentioned on another question — and public and private sector drug plans and individual costs as well as costs to the health care budgets of drugs are very, very serious considerations.

In the absence of drug evaluation programs that are essential to promoting proper and informed drug utilization, can the minister assure British Columbians that their co-payments and deductibles are not going to be going up?

[1525]

Hon. T. Lake: We have, as the member referenced, canvassed the issue of the therapeutics initiative and the drug approval process here in British Columbia. I would say that our program here in B.C. is very thorough in terms of looking at different drugs and deciding whether to list them on the PharmaCare program.

We rely on the common drug review, which is a national independent process that looks at the efficacy of any new drug in Canada against similar drugs and whether the drug provides value for money. That is a national process and is then followed by the ministry's Drug Benefit Council, which reviews the proposed drug by looking, again, at all clinical evidence regarding its safety and cost-effectiveness.

The therapeutics initiative certainly has done some very good work in this province and, I'm sure, will continue to do so. Once we complete the necessary work that we need to do around data management in the Ministry of Health following the Privacy Commissioner's report, we will hope to be able to employ the skills of the therapeutics initiative as well as other worthy researchers and experts in health care, particularly when it comes to evaluating best value for money, best value for efficacy for the drugs listed in our PharmaCare program.

J. Darcy: The minister refers to the excellent work of the federal common drug review, which British Columbia became part of back in 2003. As you have said, it evaluates new drugs before they come on the market.

The facts will show that in fact this federal common drug review used the work of the therapeutics initiative to serve as an example when they were getting set up and in the practices that were being put in place, because in fact it was best practices in drug evaluations that have been carried out by the therapeutics initiative.

[1530]

I am not particularly interested in going backwards on this issue, because we could spend an awful lot of time on the history on this particular file. We're not going to be able to erase statements that were made in the past by the Premier.

However, what the minister can do, going forward, is resume the therapeutics initiative's very important work in order to help to ensure that the drugs are made safe for British Columbians and that we get the best bang for our health care dollars.

My question to the minister is: do you agree that drug

[ Page 1141 ]

evaluation work needs to recommence in this province if PharmaCare is going to meet its budget target and if you're going to be able to meet your fiduciary responsibility to protect patients, and will you meet with the therapeutics initiative in order to move forward in the interests of safer, more effective drugs and reduced costs?

Hon. T. Lake: As I have said in this House previously, there was concern expressed on behalf of patients that were concerned that the existing approval process for drugs in British Columbia, using the therapeutics initiative as the sole arbiter, was taking far too long — in some cases, 2½ years longer than those drugs were approved in the rest of Canada. In fact, researchers with the arthritis centre at UBC were critical of the therapeutics initiative and the length of time it was taking, denying effective drugs to reduce symptoms in arthritis sufferers in the province of British Columbia.

A task force was struck that looked at the issue of approvals to ensure that an efficacious, efficient, timely system was put in place. That system was put in place following the recommendations of that pharmacology task force.

The therapeutics initiative still can play a role. Once we have ensured that we have met the challenge of making sure data is secure, the therapeutics initiative certainly can be part of that process. In fact, my deputy will be meeting with the therapeutics initiative over the next several weeks as we move through this process to ensure that we provide British Columbians with the best available evidence in the drug approval process and the best protection for their health care data.

J. Darcy: Thank you to the minister for that answer. You referred to a review regarding privacy issues — the internal review into the data breaches, which commenced over a year ago, I believe. Can the minister tell us when that internal review will conclude?

Hon. T. Lake: I'll read this again, because it was read earlier, and perhaps the member wasn't in the room.

"In May 2013 the investigation unit started phase 2 of the work, focusing on researchers' and contractors' data management and contracting practices. Contractors, researchers have been identified as part of the phase 2 review. Letters are now being sent to the first group of contractors that have been reviewed to ensure that data management practices are appropriately in place and to confirm so in writing to the ministry. Once that is completed, they will be able to then apply for future ministry data.

"The ministry is also going to be engaging in discussions with smaller groups of researchers to discuss concerns identified relating to data access. Contractors, researchers starting this fall will be required to participate in a mandatory on-line training session focusing on information management, security and privacy. A compliance audit program is also being implemented by the ministry to monitor data access practices."

We are balancing the need to open up data, which is paramount in terms of research, with the need to ensure that the data is protected, as per the Privacy Commissioner's recommendations.

[1535]

J. Darcy: Thank you to the minister. Can I clarify, because there's considerable controversy swirling around this: is it not the case that the therapeutics initiative uses de-identified data for post-market surveillance studies, for those real-life, real-world evaluations of drugs — de-identified data?

Hon. T. Lake: The therapeutics initiative and those who work with the therapeutics initiative use a combination of identifiable and de-identified data.

J. Darcy: Well, I'll seek further information and pursue that at another time with the minister if I have further questions.

I'd like to move on to the issue of Champix. As we have discussed in this House and as has been the subject of considerable controversy as well in the province, the Premier, as we're aware, in her leadership campaign promised a smoking cessation program. My question to the minister is: what research did the Premier provide cabinet about her proposal?

I've been reviewing some of the materials that were produced at the time, and it seems highly unusual that a politician would actually champion a couple of particular drugs in advocacy for a smoking cessation program. So my question is: what research did the Premier provide to cabinet about her proposal?

Hon. T. Lake: I would be breaching my cabinet confidentiality if I were to answer that question.

J. Darcy: I haven't been in this House long enough to know how to frame the question in order to get an answer to it. But surely, it is a legitimate question to the Minister of Health about whether evidence was provided to government.

Let me put it that way. Was evidence provided to government, to the Ministry of Health, to prove the effectiveness of this particular drug before it became the focus of a major campaign? I'm not asking you to breach cabinet confidentiality. I'm asking: what evidence was presented to the Ministry of Health before this was undertaken?

Hon. T. Lake: If the member is asking what process Champix went through to be considered for use in British Columbia, I can certainly answer that. Champix is a drug that is approved for sale in Canada. It is one that went through the common drug review, which we talked about earlier. Health Canada reviewed all the available research on Champix before B.C. decided to cover this drug under the provincial formulary.

This is a drug that has helped many people quit smoking. I've heard from many people that have used this

[ Page 1142 ]

particular drug and been able to break a habit which we know is one of the most preventable causes of mortality and morbidity in British Columbia.

So this drug has gone through the safety and efficacy procedures that are put in place for drugs that are listed in Canada. It's used in over six different provinces and territories in Canada. As I mentioned, the drug is currently being studied by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research's Drug Safety and Effectiveness Network. That research was proposed by our ministry in August of 2011, and we're looking forward to the completion of that research, which we hope to have later this year.

[1540]

J. Darcy: I was hoping that you might give me a different response than you did when we raised this question earlier in the House, because as we pointed out in the House, the study that is being undertaken is in fact more in the nature of a literature review than the kind of real-life, real-world study of the impact on people who have been using this drug for some time.

When I asked a question about this in the House a couple of weeks ago, the minister stated that it was not possible to do that kind of evaluation of a drug because it hadn't been in use for a long enough period of time. However, the government's own documents state that by April 2012 over 20,000 people had received the prescriptions for smoking-cessation drugs, yet the therapeutics initiative's proposal to do a real-life, real-world evaluation was rejected in June 2012.

There are now over 45,000 British Columbians taking smoking-cessation drugs. So the issue here is not whether or not we want to promote programs for people to quit smoking. That's absolutely not the question. The question is about the efficacy of a particular drug and about the harmful effects that have caused certain countries to stop using it and that have been the subject of lawsuits in several jurisdictions.

The Chair: Member, was there a question?

J. Darcy: Well, my question is this, then, to the minister: has the ministry prepared a legal analysis to assess the risk that the B.C. government has exposed itself to by not completing a thorough drug evaluation assessment of Champix prior to listing it in PharmaCare and afterwards?

Hon. T. Lake: At the risk of being repetitive, this is a legal drug that has been approved by Health Canada and the national common drug review. Six different provinces use and list this drug to help people combat smoking.

A study that is currently being done by the University of York is a meta-analysis that looks at a whole wide range of papers and that in fact examines the effect of this drug on people. Yet it uses a whole, wider range of people than the relatively few people in British Columbia that had been on the drug for a short period of time when the therapeutics initiative suggested their study, which had been preceded by our request to the federal organization to do a study.

The member opposite wants to draw a distinction between the kind of analysis that is ongoing on the part of the ministry and the one that the TI proposed. But it is, again, looking at a wide range of studies that have been done with this drug, with people that have been using this drug in jurisdictions around the world, not limited to just British Columbia.

We feel that it is probably important to get a very large sample in order to have statistically relevant information that will benefit British Columbians. We look forward to that study when it comes later this year.

J. Darcy: The minister says there aren't sufficient numbers of people in British Columbia using the drug to do an evaluation in British Columbia. Can the minister tell us how many people are using the drug? The figures that I have say that there are now over 45,000 British Columbians using smoking-cessation drugs. And there were two drugs in particular that were championed by the Premier.

[1545]

Hon. T. Lake: The smoking cessation program, which has been widely received and has benefited a lot of British Columbians, started in September of 2011, and 131,000 people participated. That's remarkable. Even though British Columbia has the lowest rates of smoking in all of Canada, it's nice to see that so many people want to quit that habit. Of those 131,000, about 40,000 to 45,000 were prescribed Champix.

The comment that I made earlier about not having enough, the data…. Of course, you need to have people on a particular product for a certain length of time if you're going to evaluate all of the effects of that particular drug. Using a meta-analysis of a much larger population study allows that to happen.

J. Darcy: I'm sure we will be discussing this subject again on future occasions.

Let me move on to the Alzheimer's drug therapy initiative. As the minister is no doubt aware, Alzheimer's drugs are seen as a potentially lucrative market for brand-name drug companies, but questions on real-world effectiveness still need to be answered.

Increasing post-market surveillance was one of the key recommendations made by the Auditor General in his 2006 report on PharmaCare. Having the therapeutics initiative conduct real-world safety and effectiveness studies as part of the Drug Safety and Effectiveness Network helped to meet this recommendation, as did PharmaCare's decision to commence the Alzheimer's

[ Page 1143 ]

drug therapy initiative, which was designed to investigate safety, effectiveness and cost-effectiveness of drugs for dementia in patients in British Columbia.

Given that we do not have…. Since the firing of the ministry employees and the termination of certain contractors from the Ministry of Health as part of the data breach investigation, what is the latest plan on how these drugs will be evaluated?

Hon. T. Lake: Alzheimer's is a terrible disease that, of course, is the focus of our efforts when we're dealing with elder care. I think all of us have known friends, family, colleagues that have been stricken by Alzheimer's, sometimes at a very young age, which makes it all the more tragic.

The Alzheimer's drug therapy initiative was launched in October of 2007 to look at evidence to provide coverage for a class of drugs known as cholinesterase inhibitors. As part of this study, five research studies were initiated. Those were the caregiver appraisal study; the seniors medication study; the clinical meaningfulness in Alzheimer disease treatment scale and overall patient assessment rating; the utilization of cost project; and finally, the clinical epidemiological project.

Two of those studies remain on hold due to the current investigation ongoing into the data breach in the ministry. We hope to be able to allow those to continue in the near future with the efforts that I detailed earlier to the member. We are hoping that we will be able to continue those studies and complete those studies so that coverage for patients will be able to be made. Decisions are expected in early 2014.

[1550]

J. Darcy: Thank you to the minister for the answer.

If I could move on to the issue of academic detailing. As the minister knows, on this side of the House we're very supportive of academic detailing programs. I'd like to ask the minister if he could provide an update on the province's academic detailing programs, including what the current level of staffing is, what the current budget is and program initiatives.

Hon. T. Lake: Academic detailing, as the member likely is very aware, is an educational strategy. We have a clinical pharmacist who visits a physician or other health care professionals in their practice setting and who will provide objective, balanced, evidence-informed drug information on the best prescribing practices.

Funding is given to regional health authorities for up to 10.2 full-time-equivalent pharmacists. That's about two per health authority — although I wouldn't want to be the 0.2 pharmacist — and supports personnel and equipment for visiting up to 2,000 health care professionals for each topic. We set aside $1.7 million each year for the three-year budget for this service.

J. Darcy: One other question in the area of drugs. The 2006 Auditor General report also endorsed programs that promote better prescribing among physicians, using the therapeutics initiative's letters and programs that were being started to provide physicians direct feedback on their prescribing patterns. The savings generated from these programs were then invested back into patient care and, at times, have been seen as possible sources of cooperative gains.

How have physicians responded to the recent loss of these kinds of prescribing education programs? And given the government position pending negotiations with the B.C. Medical Association that will take place in a very constrained fiscal framework, is there consideration being made to restart and to expand these programs?

Hon. T. Lake: The program the member is referring to is the education for quality improvement in patient care program or EQIP, and this began in 2006. It provided personalized, confidential prescribing portraits and educational messages to about 4,500 family physicians in B.C. It would look at clinical evidence, cost-effectiveness and improved health outcomes.

It was, in fact, a partnership between the Ministry of Health, the B.C. Medical Association, UBC and UVic. In 2009 it was directed through UBC to the Chair in Patient Safety, so members of the therapeutics initiative would have participated.

Eight drug and disease topics were developed in the contract term. We understand that the feedback was quite positive. Physicians like to have this.

[1555]

Since the program has ended, we haven't heard back from the BCMA. There's been no uproar, if you like, with the hiatus in the program, but we will be assessing the impact of the EQIP program and determine whether a similar initiative will be continued.

The Chair: Minister.

J. Darcy: You called me minister.

The Chair: Oh, Member. Enjoy the moment.

J. Darcy: Now, I'm not sure if that's a promotion, but thank you, hon. Chair. [Laughter.]

If I could go back to the previous question that I had asked about academic detailing. I must admit that I was expecting that the numbers would be greater. I don't have the figures at my disposal, but my understanding is that there are hundreds of people employed by the pharmaceutical industry at any point in time that are out visiting family doctors, promoting and doing their own form of education around drugs.

Would the minister be able to provide the figure for how many of those "industry-employed educators" are

[ Page 1144 ]

out meeting with family doctors to promote their particular pharmaceuticals?

Hon. T. Lake: No, we don't track the number of pharmaceutical detailers. I'm certainly familiar with the practice. It happens in many different professions, and I have been on both sides of that. But we don't keep statistics as to the number of detailers that work for pharmaceutical companies.

Having said that, I know that physicians in British Columbia are very bright and able to process a lot of information and make the best choices for their patients. They rely on many different sources to make those clinical decisions. Whether it's from pharmaceutical companies, whether it's from the two types of programs that we mentioned earlier, they certainly look into different sources of information.

While I've got this, I wanted to maybe elaborate on some of the topics that were launched through the B.C. provincial academic detailing service. Those were on the human papillomavirus vaccine; anti-coagulation and atrial fibrillation; antibiotics in community practice, which we know is a real concern; inhaled medications for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease; osteoporosis; statins and cardiovascular disease; and acute otitis media, which is an ear infection.

J. Darcy: I certainly agree with the minister that our physicians in this province are second to none and are indeed very smart, as the minister said.

I also count several family doctors among my personal friends, who also will say, anecdotally, that they are overwhelmed with information from pharmaceutical companies. It is a discussion I'd like to pursue with the minister at some point, because the figure that sticks in my head is somewhere in the range of 800 or 900 pharmaceutical detailers that are out there at any point in time.

I have a few questions on another subject, and then I will turn it over to some of my colleagues, who have a number of individual questions for the minister.

These questions pertain to the contract negotiations for the clinical and systems transformation program — CST, I believe, is the acronym for it — which has been referred to in some earlier discussions, a proposal to reform health care protocols and to integrate technology widely across the health care system.

I understand that it's a ten-year contract between IBM and three health authorities — Vancouver Coastal, Providence Health and the Provincial Health Services Authority. If I understand it correctly, the contract's price tag is $842 million.

Are we doing a shift change?

[1600]

The Chair: Continue, Member.

J. Darcy: I understand that the price tag for the contract is $842 million over ten years.

[D. Horne in the chair.]

The contract would also entail moving approximately 92 information management staff from the public sector to IBM, so that is said to save $285 million over ten years. Therefore, the net cost is estimated at $557 million.

I understand that in a document that was prepared for government a number of months ago — a document that I understand was leaked — which addressed the issue of the risk profile of the program, out of 13 categories with titles like "Finance," "Governance," "Achievable expectations" and "Timelines," all but one are listed as high risk. Only the category titled "Political" receives a "moderate risk" rating.

So my questions to the minister are: is the government moving ahead with negotiations on the CST program, and are you still pursuing the program in all its aspects even with the report that speaks about high risks in a number of areas?

The Chair: Minister.

Hon. T. Lake: Thank you, hon. Chair, and welcome back.

The Vancouver health organizations Vancouver Coastal Health and Providence Health Care along with the Provincial Health Services Authority formed the information management and information technology services, which is a consolidated entity that is undergoing this clinical and systems transformation.

The member mentioned that the total cost is estimated at $842 million over ten years. However, the contract the member is referring to with IBM is a value of $188 million over ten years, so it's a larger project than the one that is with IBM.

The negotiations concluded and the contract was signed in the spring of this year. But it is a staged contract, so not all of the funds are dispensed at the same time. In fact, that allows evaluation and a staging of the contract based on a positive evaluation.

J. Darcy: Can you repeat again for me the estimated cost of the contract?

Hon. T. Lake: It's $188 million over ten years. Again, that's a staged contract so that if performance is deemed positive, then it would go up the entire way. But there are off-ramps, if you like, to that contract as it moves over that ten-year period.

J. Darcy: I wonder if the minister could speak in a bit more detail about what measures are being taken to manage the risks. I understand that the program will

[ Page 1145 ]

supposedly save money across the health care system by standardizing technology infrastructure and the many clinical protocols and business processes, but how will success be measured, and what is IBM's track record with this kind of contract?

[1605]

Hon. T. Lake: While IBM is the lead contractor, they are also partnered with Deloitte. Both of these organizations have a very strong global track record on clinical transformation projects. But let me say that a capital project plan for this project is being finalized and will be available in the fall. As with all projects over $50 million, a capital project plan is initiated, as mentioned, and that is just being finalized.

The ministry has also established a project board, which is chaired by the ministry's chief administrative officer, with participation from the CEOs of the Provincial Health Services Authority, Vancouver health authority and Providence Health Care. A highly skilled and experienced project director is overseeing the management of the project on a day-to-day basis.

J. Darcy: Thank you, Minister. One last question on this. My understanding of the funding for this is that the Ministry of Health has created a mechanism to hold back cash flow in order to support the capital requirements of the project — proposes to hold back $386 million by adjusting budgets within those health authorities that are involved.

Can you explain if that is the case, and what is meant by "mechanisms to hold back the cash flow"? This is in a PowerPoint presentation, apparently, on the subject.

Hon. T. Lake: The $72 million we talked about, I believe, yesterday that came from Vancouver Coastal Health…. The request was to use that $72 million from operating and put that into capital. That is the funds that the member refers to.

J. Darcy: I thought that was probably the case with Coastal, but there are two other health…. Well, Providence Health and PHSA are involved as well. Can you talk about the money that is the mechanism for holding back the cash flow for those health authorities, and what the amounts are? Well, I know Providence is affiliated to Coastal, but….

Hon. T. Lake: That $72 million encompasses both of those health authorities, and as the member mentioned, Providence Health Care is affiliated under the budget of Vancouver Coastal.

J. Darcy: But PHSA is in the mix as well. So does that $72 million cover all three? I understood from our…. I think it was actually two days ago, Minister, although it seems like two or three weeks ago, that we talked about the $72 million. I thought that was strictly Coastal, which you're saying also covers Providence. This is for Coastal, Providence and PHSA. Is that right?

[1610]

Hon. T. Lake: The $72 million in each of '13-14, '14-15 and '15-16 is capital money that comes from operating, at the request of these organizations. I'm told that 80 percent of that is from Vancouver Coastal. The remaining 20 percent is from the PHSA.

J. Darcy: Thank you, Minister, but I just want to really understand the figures. My understanding is that there was a PowerPoint presentation — apparently, a leaked document — that refers to a holdback of $386 million. Is that over several years? Is that what $386 million refers to? Can you please clarify?

Hon. T. Lake: Well, we have three-year rolling budgets. I talked about the $72 million in '13-14, '14-15 and '15-16 that, at the request of these organizations, is taken from operating and put into capital. But that would extend out in further years, as well, to meet the cost of this project.

So when we go out to '16-17 and '17-18, that money would be taken from operating and put into capital for this project, as it is being done in the current three-year program.

J. Darcy: Thank you, Minister. I think we'll leave it at that for now. While my colleagues are asking their questions, I may think of some others and come back to you.

But otherwise, I want to thank you for the detail with which you have answered some of my questions and for beginning a discussion that we will have on many other occasions. I certainly want to thank your staff and all of the shifts that have come and gone in the course of these few days.

S. Robinson: I have a question for the minister regarding the future of Eagle Ridge Hospital, which is the hospital that serves my community. Given that Coquitlam is a designated high-growth community expected, by the regional growth strategy that we've signed on to, to grow by 50 percent over the next 20 years, is this hospital…? It has become more of a community hospital, focusing less on acute care and more on rehabilitation for members of my community in the eastern suburbs.

Does this government see this hospital as more of a rehab centre or more of a hospital to take care of acute conditions?

[1615]

Hon. T. Lake: Eagle Ridge Hospital is a fine hospital. I had some experience years ago, and I know that they take care of people very well there. It does have acute care ser-

[ Page 1146 ]

vices. It has an emergency room. It does have acute care beds. It does do a certain number of surgeries.

Certainly, the tertiary hospital for that region of the Lower Mainland would be the Royal Columbian Hospital, which offers, obviously, the higher level of care. As mentioned yesterday, the redevelopment of Royal Columbian is something that I know Fraser Health and the members of the community are looking forward to.

I think we mentioned yesterday that there's a notional allocation of $700 million for the redevelopment of Royal Columbian Hospital to serve the people of the Tri-Cities and New Westminster area.

S. Robinson: Thank you very much for the response. I want to confirm with the minister that I, too, have received service, and very fine service, at the Eagle Ridge Hospital. It is my community hospital. But I've also been told that a lot of the services are now nine-to-five services in terms of availability.

There are certain tests…. When you're in an acute state like I was about a couple years ago, they needed to keep me on painkillers because for the tests that I needed there would only be staff at 9 a.m. There's not really, from an emergency perspective, around-the-clock ability to get the care that you need.

Additionally, with RCH, and I have heard about the announcements to rebuild, given the transportation issues that exist in the area…. Certainly, folks in my region feel like when you're having a heart attack, getting to RCH can be really fraught with challenges. But you can't go to Eagle Ridge, because they'll just send you to RCH. So there are some real challenges. I want to know if the minister will be spending any time to explore some of these challenges moving forward.

[1620]

Hon. T. Lake: I'm looking forward, once the session is over in about an hour and a half….

Interjection.

Hon. T. Lake: One hour for us, yes, but we have a few procedures to go through.

I will begin tours, having the honour to be the new Health Minister for the province of B.C., and on the list of facilities I'm looking forward to touring is Royal Columbian Hospital.

Regional health authorities plan their facilities being very mindful of what the member is talking about — the capacity of the tertiary hospitals, the high level of care that's required and the placement of regional facilities. They also work closely with the B.C. Ambulance Service.

For instance, if a patient is assessed, needing a particular level of care, then the Ambulance Service would be directed to the appropriate facility. So if someone is having a heart attack — if that's what the assessment suggested — then they would be directed to the hospital most appropriate to handle that patient's needs.

I take the member's point. Given our province and given the relatively sparse population and the tremendous distances that we travel…. No one understands that more than the Minister of Jobs — or me, for that matter. Someone in my riding in Blue River, for instance — if they were having a medical emergency and if an ambulance were to travel down to Royal Inland Hospital in Kamloops, it would be a three-hour drive, which is very daunting. Fortunately, we have helicopter service in most parts of the province to reduce that travel time.

But I can assure the member that Fraser Health plans the services that are provided in the various tertiary centres as well as the smaller hospitals in the region to make sure that patients are directed to the most appropriate centre.

L. Popham: I'm going to have four questions on Lyme disease, if the minister is ready.

The B.C. complex chronic diseases clinic was announced 2¼ years ago, the day after the release of a report by a senior public health executive identifying flawed diagnostics, lack of physician knowledge and restrictive treatment guidelines as barriers to people with Lyme disease.

Chronic Lyme disease figured prominently in the rationale given for setting up this clinic at UBC, which was intended to focus on developing new forms of diagnosis and treatment. When discussing it with the then Health Minister in 2011, he said that a primary purpose of the clinic was to address the uncertainty or debate about best practices for Lyme disease and that the work of the clinic was intended to "add to the body of evidence that will help resolve that."

After more than two years can the minister tell me how many chronic Lyme disease patients are in treatment at that clinic today? What research is being conducted to develop better Lyme disease testing? And what treatment protocols are being followed at the clinic for chronic Lyme disease?

[1625]

Hon. T. Lake: The complex chronic diseases program is located at B.C. Women's Hospital and is processing referrals from physicians. It has been accepting patient referrals for the clinic and only began seeing patients in May of this year. We're only a couple months into the program.

Patients can be referred by a general practitioner, a nurse practitioner or a specialist physician. So a whole variety of medical practitioners can refer a patient that is exhibiting complex chronic disease symptoms.

There are a variety of diseases that can have a similar array of clinical signs that may lead to a referral. Tick-borne illnesses such as Lyme disease, as the member

[ Page 1147 ]

mentions, are one of those; myalgic encephalomyelitis, otherwise known as chronic fatigue syndrome, is another; and fibromyalgia syndrome.

The clinic has only been seeing patients for the last couple months. The patients that go there undergo a thorough history-taking and diagnostic work, including genomic as well as standard testing, to look at the underlying cause as well as to evaluate the patients' immune systems.

At this point, because we are only a couple of months into it, I do not have any data as to how many of those 65 patients have been diagnosed definitively with each of those different types of syndromes that can lead to a similar array of signs.

L. Popham: Patient organizations were assured that people previously denied treatment for chronic Lyme disease would gain access to novel forms of care at the new clinic. The existing B.C. guidelines refuse to care for anyone who does not show positive on the two-tiered Lyme test, limit antibiotic therapy to a maximum of four weeks and deny the existence of chronic Lyme disease entirely.

So a clinic mandated to develop a novel treatment would have to diagnose and treat beyond these restrictive guidelines in order to gain any new experience and contribute any new knowledge. Can the minister tell me if clinicians at this clinic will be allowed to clinically diagnose Lyme disease and treat patients with antibiotics beyond the limit laid down by the IDSA?

Hon. T. Lake: Physicians currently have the ability to prescribe long-term antibiotic therapy, should they consider it in the best interest of their patients. Physicians have been reluctant to do so in some cases because long-term clinical trials have failed to show a net benefit — and, in some cases, considerable harm — of that approach.

[1630]

However, having said that, the clinic that we were discussing, the complex chronic diseases program…. Certainly, if the testing and diagnostic work and physical exam history-taking were to lead the clinicians to contemplate that, they certainly can take that type of prescription and apply that to an individual patient, should they deem it appropriate.

L. Popham: A 2012 news release from Women's Hospital, which now hosts the complex chronic diseases clinic, states that Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis and that test results are merely confirmatory. Yet patient representatives on an advisory group to the clinic are being told that doctors must work within the existing guidelines and that diagnosis requires a positive test on the existing two-tier test.

Can the minister clarify whether the news release claim is correct — that Lyme is a clinical diagnosis and that clinicians are free to treat patients beyond limits set out in the guidelines? Or will he confirm that the clinic's mandate is no longer to create an experimental setting to generate new experience and new knowledge?

Hon. T. Lake: There's considerable discussion and controversy around this array of diseases, including Lyme disease, as the member mentions. I think that a lot of that controversy surrounds the different types of tests that are used.

In British Columbia, typically, the protocols that are recommended by the B.C. Centre for Disease Control are followed. However, because it is a clinical disease, obviously, the more indicators you have as to what you are treating, the better. So if you have a positive test along with clinical disease, that would certainly bolster the case for a particular diagnosis.

However, it is not necessary to have a positive test if the physician feels the clinical signs are aligned with the particular diagnosis. Treatment could be done on the basis of making a clinical diagnosis.

The centre for chronic disease at Women's Hospital is trying to go beyond the normal testing that has been done and is, in the standard protocols, using genomic types of tests. That is the novel approach that the centre is taking.

I can't comment on individual cases, of course, but there is nothing that would limit any physician from treating on the basis of a clinical diagnosis.

L. Popham: This will be my final question or statement. I know the minister is a member of a profession that is free from all of this induced controversy about Lyme disease. In fact, if you are a vet, you don't have to adhere to the same standards, and you have a lot more freedom.

Given the minister's responses, I'm going to take that as an avenue of freedom that can be displayed within this clinic. Maybe I could ask the minister to establish communication with these patient advocacy groups so that they are aware there is more freedom than they are aware of right now within that clinic.

[1635]

Hon. T. Lake: I can tell the member that I have met with members of the patient advocacy group that she discusses. As a practising veterinarian, I participated for a number of years in collecting ticks. We submitted them all to the Centre for Disease Control, looking for the particular ticks that carry the bacterium that is responsible for this disease, Borrelia burgdorferi .

In 15 years of practice in submitting those ticks, I in my practice did not get one positive result for Borrelia . Having said that, we know that there are a number of ticks in British Columbia that are capable of carrying this organism — Ixodes pacificus and Ixodes angustus. They're not present in large numbers in British Columbia

[ Page 1148 ]

and are constrained mostly west of the coastal mountains.

I, like the member opposite, am always interested in new information and pushing the boundaries of research. That's what this centre is all about, and certainly, I'm supportive of that.

M. Elmore: My question is in relation to child cancer survivors. I have a constituent who I met with. His name is Will Vacheresse. He has a daughter, Danielle, who is now 20 years old. She was diagnosed as an 18-month-old baby. She had a brain tumour. It took one year to diagnose.

Certainly, children with cancer, particularly brain cancer…. It's a very tumultuous time for parents.

We're now seeing, through advances in medicine…. It's a great advance that children are able to successfully be treated, and we're now seeing the first generation of children successfully being able to be treated, particularly for brain cancer, and surviving into adulthood. That's what we're seeing, and the literature and the research is also being done to catch up with that in terms of understanding this new frontier in the advance of science.

One of the impacts that was raised by a recent Vancouver Sun

article was the impacts of the successful drug chemotherapy and radiation treatment. It often leaves long-term health impacts.

My constituent has grouped together with 80 other families who are impacted — young adults who have survived brain cancer. They've formed a group, the Pediatric Cancers Survivorship Society of British Columbia.

I wanted to ask, on their behalf…. They see a need and are advocating for a tertiary clinic to service the needs of young adults who, as children, have survived brain cancer, just to provide the specialized care that is needed. That's the first part of question — if the minister would consider supporting a tertiary clinic to service the needs of young adults.

Also, it is estimated there are about 1,500 young adults now who are in the situation of being diagnosed with cancer and treated as children. Currently the society has about 80 families, and there are about 1,500 estimated in British Columbia.

I know there was a proposal from the Children's Hospital to contact and advise these families in terms of bringing them up to speed. Often they are isolated and unfamiliar with the outcome and the symptoms that develop from their child being treated for cancer.

So a two-part question. Is there consideration for tertiary services being provided for these young adults and their families, to support them? Also, are there initiatives underway to contact the estimated 1,500 children and young adults who've been impacted by successful cancer treatment as children?

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Hon. T. Lake: I can't imagine anything more devastating to a family than to deal with a child that was undergoing cancer and the treatment necessary to combat that disease. I, too, read the story and certainly have a lot of sympathy for families and the cancer survivors as they face those challenges as a result of their successful but nonetheless impactful treatment.

There are a number of things ongoing. There's a program that B.C. Children's Hospital supports called ON TRAC transition initiative. That program's goal is to facilitate transition preparation and transfer for youth with chronic health conditions and disabilities to adult care and ensure that the transfer is successful, with youth engagement and continued attachment to primary care and specialist adult services.

In recent years the B.C. Cancer Agency has also developed the survivorship program, which is dedicated to improve the well-being of those who are living with and beyond cancer. That's an important component as well.

We are encouraging the Pediatric Cancers Survivorship Society to work closely with B.C. Children's and the B.C. Cancer Agency — to work together so that we can maximize the use of resources available and provide the necessary supports that these families need.

Back to the member's comment about notifying the children who have received radiation treatment up to 2000. There is a pilot project underway at B.C. Children's Hospital. It's called Track It, and that tries to tie together youth engagement with specific skills and knowledge that youth need in order to transition and transfer to adult care services.

We will be following this with the B.C. Cancer Agency. I'm looking forward to my tour and visit with the B.C. Cancer Agency, and this is a topic I will discuss with them.

J. Kwan: I have a constituent who has Crohn's disease. He has written me a fairly lengthy letter. It's about 2½ pages long. He says in the letter…. I'll take parts of it and put the questions to the minister. He says that approximately 22,000 people in British Columbia suffer from Crohn's disease. There are, of course, various forms of treatment, which include drugs and chemotherapy, along with surgery, as the main forms of treatment.

His particular form of Crohn's disease involves the formation of abscesses, which are very painful. The procedure to deal with that, of course, requires surgery. If surgeries, according to this particular individual, are done strategically and at the right time, they could actually manage the illness quite well.

However, his experience has been that whenever he needed surgery, it was often delayed. Then, whenever he needed the MRI scan to find out what's going on in order to proceed with the surgery, that also is not done in a timely fashion. As such, it hinders, of course, his process and the success of the surgery.

He writes:

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"There are two main reasons for the delay in the surgery treatment. Operating rooms are busy with more urgent matters — i.e., car accidents, cancer surgeries, etc. — or the MRI scans are simply not available."

As a result of that, this particular individual has had seven surgeries, and each surgery does not fix the problem because there has never been a timely way for him to get it. Chemotherapy, then, becomes a treatment choice, which, of course, has huge side effects.

[1645]

With this particular disease, it's not like you can have the chemotherapy and then stop. You have to continually get the therapy, which can potentially damage other organs and so on. Of course, he's very concerned about this, and he feels that there is enormous inefficiency within the health care system.

"In British Columbia, particularly in Vancouver, it is apparent that we have a shortage of colorectal surgeons, operating rooms and MRI machines."

He then actually goes on to make some comparisons on a per-capita basis with British Columbia versus Alberta, and so on. It seems to me that he makes a sound argument that we actually have a deficient number of surgeons in this area.

His questions are these:

"Why do British Columbians have the worst access to colorectal care? Why are more resources not being directed to the treatment of colorectal issues? Both Crohn's and colorectal cancer are on the rise.

"The government, who is the steward of our medical system, needs to be accountable for the waste of resources being spent on providing emergency care to treat problems that could be handled through proper disease management if allocated with adequate resources — at least with the same level of resources provided to the rest of the country.

"The current system for dealing with colorectal issues is costing the taxpayers more money, not saving them money. By putting more surgeons and staff directly into the colorectal surgical program, we would actually save taxpayers' money — less demands on ER facilities and unnecessary expenditure on multiple surgeries and expensive chemotherapies."

He's eagerly awaiting a response on this.

I appreciate that time is tight. There are a lot of detailed questions here that the constituent has put forward. He's given me consent to pass a letter on to the minister, and I would be happy to do that. But I did want to put it on the public record, around this particular individual's concern. He's a very successful business person in Vancouver, and he suffers from Crohn's disease.

Right now, as he sees it, as he's experienced it, the system is not working. He's hoping that there could be some accountability and some measure to improve the system, not only just for himself but, ultimately, for other patients as well.

Hon. T. Lake: We'd be happy to receive the letter and respond on behalf of the ministry.

Just some general comments. First of all, if any patient is concerned about the quality of care they're receiving or the timeliness of care, they can go through the patient care quality review board. I'm sure the member opposite has constituents who she has referred to that process.

I do know that over the last 12 years the number of MRI machines that we have and the number of scans that have been done have increased dramatically. Data shows that we've nearly doubled the number of scanners, as well as the number of CT scanners, by 59 percent since 2003-2004.

I think this is an issue that is a concern for everyone — timely access to care. While we have tried to catch up in terms of the technology, both in MRI and CT scans and even when it comes to PET scans…. The number of scans we have done has gone up dramatically — a 136 percent increase in MRIs since 2003-04.

[1650]

But certainly, someone with a chronic disease such as Crohn's…. I certainly can understand the impact on one's life of that type of disease. Timeliness of care and having an efficient system are critical, which is why it's a challenge for Health ministries around Canada to address this. It's certainly something that we will concentrate on, but I'd be happy to take the constituent's lett