Manitoba Hansard — 8 September 2003 (Sitting 02, 38th Legislature, 1st Session)

38-1-02

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIV No. 2 – 1:30 p.m., Monday, September 8, 2003

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

59 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, September 8, 2003 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Introduction of New Members Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to inform the Assembly that the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly has received from the Chief Electoral Officer a certificate showin g the election of Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross as member for the constituency of Fort Garry, which was delayed due to an application for recount. I hereby table the return to the writ of election. The honourable member has taken the oath, signed the roll and has the right to take her seat.

On behalf of all honourable members, I wish to welcome you to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. I am also pleased to inform the Assembly that the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly has received from the Chief Electoral Officer a certificate showing the el ection of Mrs. Leanne Rowat as member for the constituency of Minnedosa, which was delayed due to an application for recount. I hereby table the return to the writ of election. The honourable member has taken the oath, signed the roll and now has the right to take her seat.

On behalf of all honourable members, I wish to welcome you to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table, in accordance with

section 28 of The Auditor General Act, the Auditor General's Report of an Investigation of Hecla Island Land and Property Transactions. I am also pleased to table in the House the reports of members' expenses for the year ended March 31, 2003, in compliance with

section 38(1) of the Indemnities, Allowances and Retirement Benefits Regulations. I am also pleased to table in accordance with

section 28 of The Auditor General Act, the Auditor's Report on Examination of Le Collège de Saint-Boniface. I am also pleased to table in accordance with

section 28 of The Auditor General Act, the Auditor's Report on the Operations of the Office of the Auditor General for the year ended March 31, 2003. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2003-2004 Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Health, copies which have been previously distributed. Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): I am pleased to table copies of the Supplementary Estimates for Legislative Review for 2003-2004 fiscal year for the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines. Hon.

Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2003-2004 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Advanced Education and Training, the 2003-2004 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Seniors Directorate and the 2003-2004 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Status of Women. * (13:35) Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Min ister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Supplementary Estimates Information for the year 2003-2004. Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table for the House the Supplementary Information for Legisla tive Review for Healthy Child Manitoba, 2003-2004 Expenditure Estimates and the Supplementary Information

60 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 for Review for Manitoba Energy, Science and Technology. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the following reports: the Manitoba Agriculture and Food Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2003-2004 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to introduce to the House the eight students who have been selected to serve as pages at this session.

They are, beginning at my extreme right: Stephanie Mulaire, Nikki Kippen, Rhiannon Kuzmin, Ashley Lavallee, Kyle Burkett, Carson Stoney, Frankie Sarson, Valene Bertrand. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you. I would like to draw attention to the Speaker's Gallery where we have the six individuals who are appointed to the Manitoba Legislative Internship Program for the year 2003-2004, where they are seated. In accordance with established practice, three interns were assigned to the Government caucus and three to the Official Opposition caucus. Their term of employment is 10 months.

They will be performing a variety of research and other tasks for private members. These interns commence their assignments in September and will complete them in June. They are, working with the Government caucus: Ms. Erin Crawford of Brandon University, Ms. Catherine Glass of the University of Ottawa and the University of Manitoba and Mr. Ihor Michalchyshyn of the University of Winnipeg. Working with the caucus of the Official Opposition are: Ms. Olivia Baldwin of the University of Winnipeg, Mr. Kevin Warkentin of the University of Winnipeg and Ms. Linda Wiens of the University of Winnipeg.

Copies of their biographies have been distributed to the members. The administration of the program is carried out by our Clerk, Patricia Chaychuk. The caucus representatives on the Internship Administration Committee are the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale ) and the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of all members to congratulate the interns on their appointment to the program and to hope that they will have a very interesting and successful year with the Assembly.

I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us a visitor from India, the Honourable Chaman Lal Gupta who is the Minister of State for Defence. Professor Gupta is accompanied by Doctor Vedanand. These visitors are the guests of the honourable Member for Radisson (Mr. Jha). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my right where we have with us Mr. Binx Remnant, who is the former Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

On behalf of all honourable members, I also welcome you here today. * (13:40) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Compensation Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today, under the Doer government, there are Manitoba families who cannot pay their bills or put food on their tables. There are produ cers here today who are facing the collapse of an entire industry. There are businesspeople who are facing laying off employees and shutting down completely. The BSE and drought crises should be the top priority of the NDP government; but the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, has failed to provide leadership, he has failed to provide adequate assistance and he has failed to provide any kind of long-term plan. Manitobans are tired of this Premier's excuses. Th ey are tired of him constantly blaming Ottawa for the problems here

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 61 in Manitoba. He is the Premier for all Manitoba nd he should show leadership on this issue. a I would ask the Premier: Where is his plan to help Manitoba families that are suffering under a crisis that has nothing to do with their doing? Where is his plan? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, of course the member will know, notwithstanding the political rhetoric, that the border was closed to all Canadian beef producers and has resulted in a very, very negative impact on the economy of many families and a great deal of uncertainty as we attempt to try to get the border re-opened to our major export markets in United States and as we attempt to get our border reopened throughout the international community, Mexico and United States, being the two largest markets that Canada has for beef production.

We continue to believe that the border is still the crucial issue in terms of long-term certainty and long-term economic viability for our industry. We have also announced some short- term programs dealing with the feed program and feeder program, low-interest loan program. Mr. Speaker, we have also announced, in spite of the fact that it was not requested by members opposite, a slaughter enhancement program of some $2 million. Mr. Speaker, we note that the slaughter capacity in Manitoba has diminished.

I think it was 292 000 cattle were being processed in Manitoba in 1988 and when we came into office it was less than 20 000. In addition to that, we have been dealing with a framework agreement with the national government that we believe is inadequate. Of course, we believe that program should have been amended both for grain and oilseeds producers and our cattle producers to nsure the economic viability. e The first program we agreed to, Mr.

Speaker, was in concert with the cattle producers of Canada, the cattle producers of Manitoba and with the other western provinces at the western premiers' meeting in Kelowna. We made adjustments and amendments to that program because it did not have the kind of sustainability in the short term for our producers. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, it is known for a fact that it took 72 days before the Premier finally met with members of the Manitoba Cattle Producers Association to discuss the BSE crisis. It took weeks before he met with rural municipalities. It took all this time.

We know that during the election campaign the Premier made numerous trips to rural Manitoba, but it has not gone unnoticed that since that election his appearances have been nowhere. More likely, Mr. Speaker, it is because the Premier has no plan or no long-term solution to offer those people that are in a crisis. The Premier says that he does not have a Brink's truck, but he does have a rainy day fund, a fund that was established clearly to deal with crises when they arise. Manitoba families are put in that crisis today.

The Premier so far refuses to go into that fund to help those Manitoba families who find themselves in a situation or crisis that has nothing to do with them. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier: If the rainy day fund is not set up to deal with this BSE crisis, then what is the fund for? * (13:45) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the program that was[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, the program that was announced and proposed by the cattle producers in Kelowna, we suspended the meeting to discuss with the cattle producers of Manitoba the exact program and its impact and benefit here in Manitoba. We did not sign on to the program in Kelowna without advice and consent of the cattle producers.

When they subsequently viewed this program as not being sufficient, we then went and reworked the program to include what members of the Cattle Producers Association had proposed and also rework it to come in with not only buying time but buying change with the slaughter enhancement program that we announced to try to increase our capacity.

62 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 We knew two months from now when it was in July, or three months from now, we were going to have to deal with the challenges of a lack of slaughter capacity here in Manitoba, a development that took place over two different governments over fifteen years, Mr. Speaker, and its impact on Manitoba producers. So just going from one shift a week to four shifts a week and going from a plant operating for eight hours to sixteen hours we hope will make a difference for more cattle being processed and produced here in Manitoba rather than other provinces.

I would note, Mr. Speaker, that the member opposite wrote a letter to constituents and I can table that letter if you would like. In that letter he says that the provincial government needs to provide programs to deal with the cash finances of farmers and he proposes a low-interest loan program or a cash advance. One of those "ors" we did meet with the hundred-million-dollar announcement we announced. In terms of dealing with geographic areas, Mr.

Speaker, during the election and since the election, I was in every geographic area of this province, something that could not be said for the Leader of the Opposition during the election campaign. Mr. Murray: So, Mr. Speaker, this is unconscionable coming from the Premier of the Province of Manitoba. He used to blame Ottawa, now he is blaming the cattle producers. That is unbelievable. Manitoba producers and their families are trying to put on a brave face, but it is pretty difficult under these circumstances.

The Premier is afraid to look them in the eye, so I will ask him to close his eyes and imagine what those families are going through as they try to put food on the table or buy school supplies for their children as they attend school. It is about their future, it is about their livelihood and it is about their communities. The Premier has simply failed Manitobans. He has not shown leadership and he has not given Manitobans any assurance that he will be able to deal with another crisis should it arrive.

The Premier may have some tough decisions to make to ensure that we keep a balanced budget but that is his responsibility. That is what he was elected to do. I will ask the Premier one more time: On behalf of families in crisis in Manitoba, will he do the right thing, go to the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and give a cash advance to those cattle roducers today? p * (13:50) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite, in his letter to constituents, called on a low-interest loan program. We have announced that.

They asked us to amend the program that was originally agreed to by the cattle producers and a suggested set of reasonable amendments which we agreed to which we have done. We have gone further than what the Opposition Leader has suggested by having a slaughter enhancement program. That is because of the fact that when they came into office in 1988, there were 292 000 cattle processed and slaughtered here in Manitoba. When they left office it was under 20 000. We are going to do something about that. I think we should all join together with those ideas that are out there to get more slaughter capacity.

That is not blaming anybody. That is just dealing with the reality that we are dealing with today. We are taking money out of the rainy day fund for cattle producers. We took out $50 million in the year 2000 from the rainy day fund to deal with the low prices and low income for the grain and oilseed producers. We took out another $50 million or $45 million in the year 2001 to deal with the low prices for grain and oilseed producers. This summer Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable First Minister has the floor. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr.

Doer: This summer we are taking money out of the rainy day fund to pay for the feed program that was not part of the federal- provincial program, to pay for the slaughter enhancement program and to backfill the low- interest loan program. We are taking money out of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund to deal with the economic crisis of having over $50 million in forest fire funds that have to be expended to put out the fires across Ma nitoba. In northern Manitoba there are over 500 fires.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 63 I would note that this weekend in Windsor, Ontario, the municipal leaders from across Canada, including the municipal leaders here in Manitoba, have called on the federal government to support the producers across this country. It is not an either/or. Our money is out of the rainy day fund because people need it. We have approved money and we will continue to support our cattle producers as we did with the grain producers in the years 2000 and 2001. Livestock Industry Feed Assistance Program Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, the seriousness of the crisis in the livestock industry cannot be overstated. We know there are young families that are seriously hurt. We know that the NDP government during the late seventies and the early eighties closed the packing industry in this province and we know that they are now on a path of closing the primary producer industry in this province. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture why she suspended, why did you close and see fit to prematurely end th e feeder program even though you knew this would have a negative mpact on this industry. Why did you end it? i * (13:55) Hon.

Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, this is a very important issue and one that has taken the majority of our Government's time through the summer months. I can tell you that our Government is working very closely with the cattle industry. The Manitoba Cattle Producers have been meeting with my department on a regular basis and we have been meeting with the processors in this province. When the slaughter program was put in place we consulted with the Manitoba Cattle Producers as to the design of the program.

Although they supported the slaughter program, they then came back and said this program is not working, can you change the program. What they asked us, Mr. Speaker, is that we make changes to the program within the parameters of the funds that were available. There is a news release that the Manitoba Cattle Producers put out indicating the number of animals that were in Manitoba, and they asked for reallocation. Mr.

Penner: It is almost unbelievable that this minister will stand in her place and accuse the Cattle Producers of directing her to ending programs and redefining new programs when she knows full well that it was her responsibility nd is her responsibility. a I want to ask the minister then: Will the minister tell this House why she caved in to the federal government and signed on to the APF program under the auspices?

Is this a ploy to start blaming the federal government and the Cattle Producers for having signed on to an APF program that will be the biggest disincentive program that has ever been devised by Ottawa to diversification in this province? Ms. Wowchuk: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the member thinks his responsibility would be if he was minister, but my responsibility is to consult with the industry and work with them and we have worked with them. We worked with them on the slaughter assistance program. We consulted with them.

We heard their suggestions and we listened to them and we made changes to the feed assistance program as they suggested, a program that is 100 percent funded by the provincial overnment. g I want to say that I am quite surprised that the last time we were in this House, the members opposite were asking us why we were not signing on to the Agricultural Policy Framework. Now they are saying do not sign on to the Agricultural Policy Framework, Mr. Speaker. This is a program that has been in long discussion with the producers of this province and producers across the country.

Just as programs that they signed on to may not be perfect, this is a program that I have consulted with the producers with and they have said sign. We will continue to work on the program. Minister of Agriculture and Food Resignation Request Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Well, Mr. Speaker, the compensation program did not work. Producers are not getting their fair share

64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 of the slaughter capa city because of the incapacity of the minister to negotiate a fair percentage of the cattle going into the slaughter industry. The feeder program that has been cancelled without notice and the loans program are not meeting the producers' needs. You have failed to introduce a cash advance program. Will the minister now do the right thing and offer her resignation to this Legislature? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, it is quite amazing that a person by the name of Stuart Murray would write a letter to his constituents and Mr. Speaker: Order. I would just like to remind all honourable members when making reference to other members in this House to do so by their constituency or ministers by their portfolio that they hold. I ask the full co-operation of all honourable members, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I will withdraw that.

I will say that it is quite amazing that on one hand the Leader of the Opposition would write a letter to constituents and say that Government should consider such things as a low-interest loan in the letter, and then when we put a low-interest loan in place, or, he says, an interest-free cash advance. He said either/or. We put in the low-interest loan, and now that is not adequate for them. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, the low-interest loan program is working.

It is getting cash into the hands of many families who cannot sell their cattle and need a cash flow until such time as the borders open or other money from the federal government begins to flow. The program is working. The member asked for it; we have done it. They should congratulate us on putting money into the farmers' hands. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advances for Producers Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, this minister obviously does not understand her portfolio. When there is no debt-servicing ability Mr. Speaker: Order. Is the honourable Member for River Heights on a point of order?

Point of Order Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the minister has referred to a document. I would just ask her to table the document. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I would be very happy to table a letter written by the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray) that went to many people in Manitoba and in the Interlake where he did suggest a low-interest loan program that we delivered on. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for River Heights, the honourable member has tabled the document, so that should take care of the matter. * * * * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste. Rose has the floor. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, this minister obviously does not understand her portfolio when she says her loan program is working. When there is no debt-servicing ability left in a business, it cannot take another loan. She has failed particularly the cow-calf industry which is the basis of the industry in this province.

Will she now reconsider her program and use a cash advance bridging program now that she has signed on to the APF? Ms. Wowchuk: I find it quite amazing that when there was a need for money in the pork industry in 1997, the government of the day, then the Conservatives, put in place a program that was called the Producer Recovery loan. It was at prevailing interest rates, much higher than what we have put in place for the cattle industry. Now we have put a program in at three and a quarter, Mr. Speaker, and two and a quarter for young producers, and for some reason they do not think this program can work.

I can tell you that the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation is working closely with producers

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 65 and ensuring that they are able to get a cash flow until such time as other monies flow to producers in this province. I can tell you we did discuss this program with the people in the industry before we implemented it. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, she has once again demonstrated she does not understand the problem. When the borders close, you have no market. Where have you been Madam Minister? It is time to stand up and go to the Premier (Mr. Doer) and tell him that the producers of this province need some cash relief.

A steer in Alberta is worth a dollar per pound. A steer in Manitoba is worth 70 cents. Will she take action? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that it is a very difficult situation in rural Manitoba, and I can tell the member that I have visited with producers in all parts of this province to talk about the situation they are in. The most important thing that can happen is to have the border open, because if the border does not open this industry is going to have to change tremendously, but we are having some permits issued. There is some meat crossing the border.

We know there is a lot of hurt out there, but the member also knows that there are some animals that are starting to move right now in auction marts. There is the sale of some animals. There are some animals starting to move into the slaughter facilities at Moose Jaw and into Quèbec. It is a difficult situation. I know it is a difficult situation and we are putting in programs to help people with their cash flow. We have signed on to the Agricu ltural Policy Framework, are signing on to it. The federal minister tells us there is going to be federal money flowing from that program. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, it is indeed sad when the Minister of Agriculture in this province does not understand the gravity of the problem that one of its principal industries is in the middle of now, people who are cow-calf operators with no cash flow, no pasture, drought conditions, no ability to transport, no money. Transports want money up front. They need assistance now, not in the new year. Will she put in place a transition program so they can even make it to the APF program, a cash advance? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the member says that I do not understand the industry or what is going on out there.

I do not think he understands hat his party has been asking for. w They asked for a low-interest loan or a cash advance[interjection] Or. We have put in a better program than they put in when the other industries were in trouble. There is a cash advance. There is a cash flow. I hope more livestock starts to move. I hope more permits are issued so that meat can start to go across the border. I have talked to many people who said they need money. The loan program is the bridge program that is in place to help people until the borders open or until other programs come into place, Mr. Speaker.

Livestock Industry Feeder Assistance Program Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): My uestion is to the Minister of Agriculture. q Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture and the Premier (Mr. Doer) of Manitoba have failed to provide effective assistance to the Manitoba Cattle Producers affected by BSE, but that is only just a part of this tragic story. Madam Minister, 32 of Manitoba's rural municipalities have been severely crippled by drought and have declared themselves disaster zones. They have lobbied your Government for $50 an acre payment for pasture assistance.

It has become so drastic that some are considering withholding the payment of school taxes in order to assist livestock producers and their families. Are you prepared today, Madam Minister, to announce the assistance that is being requested by these drought-stricken cattle producers? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, when I visited the southwestern part of the province, an area that the member represents, I had the opportunity to see how serious the drought was. Indeed, the drought situation is very serious.

At that time, people told us that they had no cash flow, and if there was some way that they could get some cash to make some decisions on

66 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 whether to purchase hay, whether to haul hay, that would be very helpful to them. At the meeting that we had in Hartney, it was suggested that we put in place a program similar to the Producer Recovery Program. We listened to the producers. We listened to Manitoba cattle producers, and we put in place $100 million of loan authority to allow up to $50,000 that farmers can borrow to allow for a cash flow until such time as the border opens or there is additional money flowing from programs such as the Agricultural Policy Framework. Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba cattle producers know all too well how ineffective this minister has been. She missed the opportunity by not implementing the Greenfeed Program that she could have put in place. She has not offered transportation assistan ce for hauling feed to these drought stricken areas, and she has failed to outline any kind of feed security program for this winter. Madam Minister, I ask you again: On behalf of the producers and their families, will you announce detailed assistance today? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the member talks about a Greenfeed Program.

I am sure the member knows that under Crop Insurance there is a Greenfeed Program, and the farmers have the ability to cut their hay for greenfeed if it is so needed. There were some changes that were requested from the producers and those changes were made. With respect to what our department is doing, I can tell you that through the straw and hay line we have been listing hay. We have been connecting people who are in need of straw supply. There has been a lot of movement. Mr. Speaker, those producers asked for assistance in the form of a cash flow.

They are taking advantage of the loan program to ensure that they have cash flow to deal with personal bills or to purchase hay or to move straw. The program is working. There is cash flowing. Certainly, I do not want to minimize the situation. The drought in many parts of the province is very serious. Minister of Agriculture and Food Resignation Request Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Well, Mr. Speaker, if the minister would spend as much time creating solutions as she has creating excuses we would not be in this mess.

As the Agriculture Minister, she has failed by not implementing a cash advance program to deal with BSE. As the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs assigned to protect rural Manitoba, you have not even recognized the severity of the drought on ranchers and their families. You have provided nothing in that area. As the Deputy Premier of Manitoba, you obviously have no influence on your caucus and your Cabinet colleagues. Either you have not worked hard enough to convince them of the importance of this issue or you do not understand the issue yourself.

Madam Minister, why do you not stop the rhetoric and do the Manitoba farmers a favour and resign? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I think the farmers of Manitoba would expect more of the Opposition than playing politics. I think the farming community would want the Opposition members to make some real suggestions on what we could be doing. * (14:10) An Honourable Member: We have. An Honourable Member: And we followed them. Ms. Wowchuk: You made a suggestion on a low-interest loan program. We implemented that program, Mr. Speaker.

At one point you were suggesting that we sign on to the Agricultural Policy Framework. Unfortunately the Opposition has changed their mind but we have given our word, communicated to the federal Minister of Agriculture that we are signing on to the Agricultural Policy Framework.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 67 I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, we have asked the federal government for a lot more than that. We have asked them to look at how they can help out in the areas where we are helping out now. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Impact on Families Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, the BSE crisis is taking an incredible toll on Manitoba families. One recently wrote: We are now living in fear and desperation. What will become of us? Our young children do not yet understand the scope of the crisis before us.

They do not know that money is quickly disappearing and they will not be able to participate in their extra-curricular activities. No more curling, 4-H, figure skating, hockey. My question is to the Minister of Family Services: How many families in crisis, in fear, in tears, in need have you met with? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I would like to welcome the Member for Minnedosa to the Chamber. This is her first question and I well remember when I was a rookie here, Mr. Speaker, feeling some of the enthusiasm about joining this Chamber.

So I welcome the member to the Chamber and I thank her for her question. Mr. Speaker, of course, myself, the Premier (Mr. Doer), the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), all members of this caucus have been extremely busy this summer meeting with constituents, meeting with our communities, empathizing and working with them toward resolving this problem and will continue to work to open the American border, along with colleagues across western Canada. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, this same mother writes: Winter is quickly approaching and the kids have outgrown their snowsuits and boots.

We cannot afford to buy new ones. How will we keep them warm? There is a lingering feeling in rural Manitoba that the Doer government does not have a full appreciation of the circumstances and the realities of rural life. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Family Services tell this House what plan he has put in place to deal with farm families to ensure they are not being abandoned? Mr. Caldwell: I wonder if I might request that the member table the letter so we get a full appreciation on this side of the House, the letter to which she refers, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: Honourable Member for Minnedosa, are you willing to table the letter? Mrs. Rowat: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The letter will be tabled. The minister, to continue with his response. Mrs. Rowat: The individual who has written this letter would like to remain anonymous, but I will table it. It is tabled. Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable Member for Minnedosa for that information. The honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing, with the response to the question. Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in the first response, we on this side of the House as well as members opposite this summer spent a lot of time in our constituencies. We have been meeting with producers, meeting with families, hearing stories and experiences very similar to the one the member raised with her quotations from the letter. Mr. Speaker, each and every day, we are working towards opening the border. As the Minister of Agriculture has argued[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are working each and every day with producers and families, not to make political points, but to help our communities. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, this woman goes on to write that the Agriculture Minister is totally out of touch and that the minister and Premier will do nothing to help us. We have children to feed, clothe and educate.

68 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 Mr. Speaker, what is the Minister of Family Services offering farm families desperate to feed and clothe their children? Mr. Caldwell: Apart from the political rhetoric, Mr. Speaker, my door is always open. The doors of my colleagues are always open. We have been, as I suggested ea rlier, very busy this summer in communities throughout the province. As for our record on family services and child welfare, we are a leader in this country and very proud of that record. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advances Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. The Official Opposition has been asking for cash advances. It is my understanding that the Agricultural Policy Framework in the context of that provides for the provision for substantial cash advances. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us about how that is going to work and when such cash advances might be available? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, I have had many discussions with the federal minister with regard to all of the assistance that we are looking for producers across western Canada to deal with this BSE crisis, including supporting us on our feed program, looking for a program to deal with culled cows, looking for a cash advance for producers to be funded by the federal government. We have had no response from the federal minister to be positive on any of those questions.

However, with the Agricultural Policy Framework, when there are enough provinces that have signed on to the program, the federal minister has said there will be an interim payment that will flow because money from the Agricultural Policy Framework, from the business risk management, should not flow until the next year. But he has said there will be an interim payment. I look forward to details on those when the minister decides to flow that money. Livestock Industry Feeder Assistance Program Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question to the Minister of Agriculture.

The Government announced in July that it would help feedlot operators in Manitoba by providing $2 a day per animal from mid-June until October 15. Leaving aside the callous, underhanded way the Government ended the program August 31, without telling producers, I ask the minister now why is it that two born-and-raised-in-Manitoba cattle, the same age, the same weight and fed in the same feedlot are not treated equally by the NDP government with one being covered by the program and the other not. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): First of all, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to tell the member that he is wrong when he said that we dealt with this in an underhanded way and did not consult with the industry. I can tell the member that we have ongoing meetings with the cattle producers and the cattle producers outlined what kind of program we could develop and we also informed the producers when the program was ending. I also want the member to know that we asked the federal government to help us with this program as well, and the federal government has said no.

Despite the fact that the slaughter program does not work in Manitoba, despite the fact that the federal Liberal caucus in Manitoba said that they would lobby on our behalf to get the federal government to support us on this feed program, we have had no support from the federal Liberal caucus. Mr. Speaker, all prod ucers are entitled to this program if they had their animals on feed as of May 30. There are still people who are applying, so I am not sure why the member is saying one producer is being treated differently than the other. Both of them should apply. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary question then. I ask the Minister of Agriculture why is it that one animal, the investment of a producer in Manitoba, is covered when the side- by-side animal also born and raised in Manitoba and on a Manitoba feedlot, but the investment of

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 69 a producer who lives a m ile across the border in Saskatchewan is not covered. Is this Government creating disincentives to investment in our wonderful province? Why is the Government insisting on building barriers to interprovincial investment when that investment is helping to uild our province? b * (14:20) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, when we designed this feeder program, we designed it along with the Manitoba Cattle Producers because the slaughter program was not working. We designed the program to work for Manitoba producers.

If the member has a specific case that he would like to talk about, I would encourage him to give me the details of it and then we can discuss it, but the program was designed for Manitoba producers with Manitoba tax dollars. No federal dollars. Livestock Producers Meeting with Premier Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. For 72 days this minister failed to convince her boss, the Leader of the Doer government, to meet a farm group or a cattle producer or a farmer.

Why did it take 72 days for her to convince the Leader of the Doer Government to meet with the cattle producers? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Well, Mr. Speaker, I will defend the position that our Leader has taken on all of these issues. I can tell you that when we were in Kelowna it was the Manitoba Premier (Mr. Doer) that said be sure that you are on side with your producers. Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers in case there is a breach of the rules or practices of the House.

I know you all would expect me to make a ruling, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Our Premier has attended events with the cattle producers. He met here on June 23 with the cattle producers, but I can tell you that this issue has been a priority for our Government. It was one of the first issues that was raised by our Premier at the Western Premiers' Conference to be sure that Manitoba's issues were being properly addressed.

He may not have been in a meeting with them on the very first day, but he was addressing their interests and he will continue to address their interests. I can tell you that in my office we have been having ongoing meetings with the Manitoba Cattle Producers and all people in the industry. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Mr. Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. Before I proceed, I would just like to remind all honourable members that when the Speaker stands all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence.

I ask, in the future, the co-operation of all honourable members. I will tell you the reason I do it is because I need the members that I am making the ruling to be in the House. That is the reason I do that, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. As Speaker of the Thirty-Seventh Legislature, I took under advisement a matter of privilege raised by the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), on April 30, 2003, regarding the release of a report by the Auditor General.

Given that I had undertaken to return to the House with a ruling and also given that the Fourth Edition of Bourinot advises that a breach of privilege committed in one Parliament may be considered and dealt with in another Parliament, I am now returning to the House with a ruling on this matter as I believe the matter raised is one hat is very important to members. t During Oral Questions on Wednesday, April 30, 2003, the honourable Member for Russell raised a matter of privilege regarding the release and distribution of the Auditor General's report on the Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming Commission and First Nation Gaming Accountability in Manitoba.

The honourable Member for Russell indicated that he was unable to obtain a copy of the report that had been tabled in the House and that copies were not

70 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 being provided to members but were being provided to the media. He then moved "THAT this matter, because of its seriousness, be moved to the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs, and then be reported to the House so that this matter can be cleared once and for all." The honourable Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Sale), the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) and the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) also offered contributions on this issue.

I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities. There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for th e matter to be ruled in order as a prima facie case of privilege. First, was the matter raised at the earliest opportunity and second, whether a prima facie case of privilege has been established. I am satisfied that the matter was raised at the earliest opportunity, so this condition has been met.

Regarding the second condition of whether a prima facie case of privilege has been established, the issue of access by members to reports and information has been raised in the House on several occasions, and I am not unmindful that this issue is of serious concern for members. On previous occasions when this type of situation has been raised, it usually has been raised in the context of the release of reports and information by a government prior to release in the House.

However, in this instance we are dealing with a case where the issue under consideration is the release of a report by an independent officer of the Legislative Assembly. The parliamentary authorities do not contain any relevant citations to offer guidance for the matter at hand. Manitoba practice does not contain any specific rulings dealing with the release of a report by an independent officer of the Legislature, therefore the practices of the Canadian House of Commons were examined.

A comparable case did occur in the Canadian House of Commons in October, 2000, when the report of the Information Commissioner was tabled in the House on October 16, 2000, yet copies were not made available to members of the opposition until three hours after the tabling. In this particular case, the Chair did not rule that there was a prima facie case of privilege.

However, the Chair did undertake to conduct an investigation into the apparent miscommunication surrounding the release of the report so as to nsure that the situation did not occur again. e Based on this precedent, I would rule that there is no prima facie case of privilege, but I would like to advise the House that I did take action to redress this situation.

At the time the issue was raised, I investigated the situation and as a result wrote to the independent officers of the House to request that in future when reports are being tabled in the House, the independent officers provide nine copies of the report for tabling in the House. By providing nine copies for the Chamber, this will help to ensure that there are sufficient copies to meet the demands of members.

In addition, the importance of also providing copies to the Legislative Assembly Journals office in a timely manner was stressed to the independent officers to further ensure that copies are available for members and for the caucuses. I trust that this should resolve the matter. * (14:30) I have one more ruling. Following the presentation of the Speech from the Throne on Monday, June 23, 2003, the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard) rose on a matter of privilege to discuss the seating arrangement of the House, particularly the allocation of seats provided to the honourable Member for River Heights and the honourable Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). At the conclusion of his remarks, the honourable Member for River Heights moved: That this House recess to allow for representatives from MLAs in all three seating blocks to get together w ith the Speaker to see if the concerns in relation to seating in the Legislature can be resolved. The honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh), the honourable Member for Russell (Mr.

Derkach) and the honourable Member for Inkster also offered contributions on this issue. I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 71 There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for th e matter to be ruled in order as a prima facie case of privilege; first, was the matter raised at the earliest opportunity, and, second, whether a prima facie case of privilege has been established. I am satisfied that the matter was raised at the earliest opportunity, so this condition has been met. Regarding the second condition of whether a prima facie case of privilege has been established, there are no previous Manitoba rulings that would provide guidance in this case.

The past practices of the Manitoba House with regard to seating has been that the assignment of blocks of seats has been under the purview of the Speaker, while the Leaders of the recognized parties have been given the discretion of assigning specific seats within the block of seats allocated by the Speaker. Marleau and Montpetit advise on page 184 of The House of Commons Procedure and Practice that those members who do not have a party designation or who represent a party not recognized by the House are seated subject to the discretion of the Speaker.

The events of the First Session of the Thirty- Eighth Legislature were such that there was no Speaker in place after the election, because according to The Legislative Assembly Act, the position of Speaker becomes vacant on dissolution. In the absence of the Speaker, the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly has the duty to exercise the administrative authority of the Office of the Speaker regarding matters such as the allocation of block seating for the seating plan.

In this instance, a temporary seating plan was devised by the Clerk based on past practices f the House. o Although some honourable members may not have been satisfied with the placement of seating, as was stated by Speaker Parent of the House of Commons on September 30, 1998: There is no such thing as a bad seat in the House of Commons. We have all been elected in the same manner to sit here as honourable members. I would therefore rule that there is no prima facie case of privilege. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS World Literacy Day Mr.

Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): I am pleased to inform all members today that it is World Literacy Day. Along with a number of my caucus colleagues, I had the pleasure of attending a breakfast with the Honourable Jane Stewart, Minister of Human Resources and our own Minister of Advanced Education and Training (Ms. McGifford) to commemorate this day. The breakfast was sponsored by the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce and Pricewaterhouse, which demonstrates their commitment to this cause. Illiteracy affects us all. The average salary for a Manitoban with less than a high school education is only $19,000.

Studies have shown that people with low literacy experience greater unemployment, increased difficulties with health and, in particular, reading prescriptions and prescription errors. Knowing what your prescription says and getting it right is very, very critical. Illiteracy tends to perpetuate over generations. We need to stop this cycle. It is a cycle of ill health. It is a cycle of poverty. In the information age that we now live in, good literacy levels are essential. I would like to commend the Literacy Partners of Manitoba, its board and executive director, Marg Rose, for organizing this event.

I am proud of our Government over what we have done. We have increased the funding for literacy by $100,000 again this year. In 2002, there were 2100 people involved in literacy programs. This year there are go ing to be 2400, an increase of 300 people. We have done a lot as far as bringing up parent-teacher programs in literacy, child reading programs, and in Assiniboia itself, they did a great job as far as summer reading programs. Myself, the Optimist Club of Assiniboia, the Member for St. James (Ms.

Korzeniowski) and Stevenson-Britannia are holding a literacy barbecue on the 20th to gain resources for literacy programs and gain school supplies for needy students. I invite all honourable members to do this type of

72 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 organization to improve the literacy in our province. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to talk about the devastating impact of the BSE crisis on families, businesses and communities throughout Manitoba. When agriculture suffers, our entire economy suffers. The damage to Manitoba's economy alone from the BSE crisis is more than $100 million, costs that will ultimately be borne by all Manitobans. Governments have been slow to respond to the crisis.

The Premier has been reluctant to speak to producers, preferring to gag about with rock stars and movie stars. It took weeks for the Premier to admit that the provincial BSE recovery program was not working. Only under mounting public pressure did the NDP revamp the package, provide for a feeder program, but they just dumped the program without warning weeks before it was to end. The Doer government launched a low-interest loan program which many producers have criticized and simply saddled them with one more debt. Others do not qualify for it.

The PC caucus supports a cash advance program to help get needed dollars to all producers' hands, but the Doer government has repeatedly said no. Compounding problems for some livestock producers, they have been devastated by drought and severe grasshopper infestations. In parts of Manitoba a number of rural municipalities have been forced to declare their regions a disaster area. I would encourage the Premier to visit our livestock producers on their farms, to find courage to look them in the eye and see what needs to be done to this multimillion dollar industry and Manitoba's economy in turn.

If the BSE indeed is the Government's No. 1 priority then will he not hesitate to meet producers on their turf and hear their concerns. * (14:40) Western Canada Games Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise and draw attention to a very important event that happened this past August in rural Manitoba. The 2003 Manitoba Lotteries Western Canada Games were held in August, the 1st to the 10th, in Selkirk, Gimli, Stonewall and Beausejour. Mr.

Speaker, 2000 young athletes from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, the Yukon, the North West Territories and Nunavut competed in 18 different sports. The memory of these games will live forever in the minds of the athletes, the coaches, officials and volunteers. The 2003 Games marked the first time four communities joined together to host a major sporting event. I want to thank the Premier and my colleagues for having the confidence that smaller communities could do the job. I want to report they did a great job.

It also marked the first time Nunavut competed and I am pleased to report that they won a medal in wrestling. Over 3000 volunteers gave the gift of their time and talent to ensure the success of these Games. The newly completed Selkirk Waterfront was a hot spot for visitors and residents where they enjoyed eight nights of free entertainment. For 10 days, spectators were treated to a great showing of 18 sports and witnessed the talents of western Canada's top athletes. Mr. Speaker, I want to recognize the organizers and sponsors, in particular the title sponsor, Manitoba Lotteries.

The Games are a celebration of sport, the spirit of volunteerism and what is great about rural Manitoba. I want to congratulate everyone involved. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, over the past several months we know that Manitoba cattle producers have suffered through a crisis. The closing of the U.S. border to cattle has resulted in more than an industry crisis; it has resulted in a personal crisis for those ranchers affected.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 73 Last week I spoke to a constituent of mine who is 65 years old, who has been feeding 150 bulls since the border closed on May 20. He tells me now that at the age of 65 he stands to lose $200,000, money that he will never make up in his lifetime. He is disappointed that the Government has not provided a plan. He is disappointed that the Government has not given him assurances of what he is supposed to do. Mr. Speaker, this is only one example of the lives that have been affected across Manitoba.

Yet instead of leadership, which is the true test during a crisis, the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) has announced programs that provide little benefit to Manito ba ranchers and has eliminated some initiatives in the middle of the night. Today the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) asked for the Mini ster of Agriculture's resignation and I know that he did it only after a great deal of thought and a great deal of consideration.

It is a serious matter to ask for a resignation of a minister, yet the Member for Emerson should be commended because he has travelled across the province and listened to producers and he is reflecting the views of producers when he says that the Minister of Agriculture has not done her job. She has failed and it is time that the Premier (Mr. Doer) recognizes th is failure an d replaces her with a member from the Government. I am hoping to find some of you a job, someone who is willing to act for ranchers, willing to act today for Manitoba ranchers. Child Care Program Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St.

James): Manitoba has been a pioneer in day care. We led the way in Canada back Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Some Honourable Members: Start over. Ms. Korzeniowski: Start over? An Honourable Member: From the top. Ms. Korzeniowski: Manitoba has been a pioneer in day care. We led the way in Canada back in 1974 by providing start-up and operating grants to non-profit centres, and subsidies for eligible low-income families. Last term our Government did much to reinvest in child care and restore Manitoba's position as a national leader.

We boosted wages for child care workers, giving them more of the dignity and respect they deserve. One of the first centres to benefit from our child day care program is located in my constituency, the Discovery Children's Centre, now in its 27th year of operation. This summer the director of the centre, Ron Blatz, received a letter that brings home just how deserving our child care workers are in Manitoba. The letter was from a couple from British Columbia who were holidaying in Winnipeg with their children.

While picnicking in Kings Park they happened upon a group of children from the Discovery Centre who were out on an excursion. The couple wrote, and I quote: "We were most impressed for a number of reasons. First, it was delightful to see a group of children being given the opportunity to explore nature the way these boys were. They all were very caught up in a frog hunt and were obviously very much enjoying this activity. Second, the level of supervision and the positive interactions we observed from the leaders who were present was most excellent.

We had a conversation with one young man, and we left feeling very impressed by his warm friendly tone and his level of professionalism. He even went so far as to include our two children in the activity, much to their delight. Please express our thanks to your staff for their kindne ss and interest. We understand that you have grown into one of the largest and most diverse day cares in Manitoba. If your centre is always represented this way in public by such thoughtful and caring staff, then it is not hard to see why. Keep up the good work." Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY

74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Burrows, on a point of order. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I believe it is important that we only put correct information on the record . The Member for Fort Whyte (Mr.

Loewen) was concerned about things that I said on the record in the last session, and I would like to correct the record and confirm that what the Member for Fort Whyte said about his efforts to raise money for the North End Wellness centre, he indeed promised to raise $1 million, not $2 million as I incorrectly stated. I also found people who said that he had always made it contingent on a contribution from the federal government. I will leave it at that in order to correct the record. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, it is not a point of order, but I would like to thank the honourable member for co rrecting the record for Hansard. House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, by leave, I would like to table a revised Estimates order. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable Government House Leader to table a revised Estimates order? [Agreed] The honourable Government House Leader has tabled the revised Estimates sequence. Mr. Mackintosh: Please call Supply. Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into the Committee of Supply.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (15:00) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order? This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Chairperson, I do not intend to have a lengthy opening statement other than to suggest that we have an opportunity now, after having tabled both the Estimates and the Supplementary Estimates several months ago as well as having had an opportunity to debate these matters during the course of an election campaign and a summer period when all individuals had an opportunity to review it, I think that the Supplementary Estimates stand on their own with respect to the direction the Government is following with respect to health care. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments.

Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Charleswood, have any opening comments? Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Chairperson, yes, I do. I would just like to acknowledge and recognize particularly the efforts of all those involved in health care at the front lines and all people involved in the health care system on a daily basis.

Whether it is the RHAs, Manitoba Health, hospitals, personal care homes, community agencies, home care, I think it is particularly important to acknowledge the work that goes on at that level knowing the stresses that are out there, the stresses that they are feeling on an everyday basis, the stresses they feel when patients and families are coming to them on a very regular basis and expressing concerns about the health care system. I think everybody is giving their very, very best in health care, and I do want to recognize that. I think special recognition also needs to be given to public health officials.

They have certainly had a stressful year and a bit. I applaud their efforts. I think they have been facing increasing challenges and they must stay very vigilant. All of their actions are watched carefully to see that the vigilance is there with SARS, BSE, water pollution, West Nile. It certainly does beg the question: I wonder what is next.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 75 I certainly want to say to those people on the front lines of health care, thank you for your time, your talent, your commitment, the many sacrifices that you make to the health care system on behalf of patients and families and your striving for improving the quality of care in our health care system. I certainly acknowledge your efforts. Having been on the front lines of health care for 23 years, I certainly value what everybody faces on a day-to-day basis. So I look forward to moving into Estimates, Mr. Chairperson.

I look forward to getting from the minister openness and a sense of accountability about wh at is happening in Manitoba Health. I look forward to the next several days as we pursue this issue. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from the Official Opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 21.1.(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in Resolution 21.1. However, at this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table. We ask that the minister introduce staff in attendance. Mr. Chomiak: I am joined by the Deputy Minister of Health, Milton Sussman; the Chief Financial Officer for the Department of Health, Heather Reichert; and Pat Hosang, Executive Director, Regional Support Services. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for those introductions. Does the committee wish to proceed through these Estimates in a chronological manner or have a global discussion? Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Chairperson, as in previous years, I would ask whether or not we can continue with the same format of going global for several days and then line by line to finish off. I appreciate that the minister may not have all of the staff here that he needs at a particular time. I am certainly flexible enough to move my questions into a different order that would accommodate the staff. At this time I certainly would like to welcome the staff from Ma nitoba Health to the table. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, that has been the practice that we have followed for some time. I think that makes some sense.

I appreciate the flexibility on the part of the member with respect to the issues as relates to global versus line by line and the availability of staff. I think we can proceed on that basis. The pattern that we have generally followed is to have the critic generally try to give us a sense of where she might be going in subsequent days so that we can arrange to have the appropriate staff available. I am sure we can follow that same practice. Mr. Chairperson: I think it is agreed that we will have a global discussion. Is it agreed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister of Health when the 2002-2003 Annual Report will be released. Mr. Chomiak: I think the practice we will follow is the usual practice in Manitoba. I believe that the report will be available sometime in September. Mrs. Driedger: In last year's organizational chart, I noticed that th e RHAs were included with a connection to the Minister of Health. I note this year that they have been removed from that particular organizational chart. I wonder if the minister could give some indication as to hy that move was made. w Mr.

Chomiak: As the member may or may not be aware, one of the roles and functions and one of the very clear recommendations with respect to the Thomas commission was a reorganization and a reallocation of how health care is managed and provided for in the province of Manitoba. It was a very clear recommendation to us that we should reorganize with respect to the Department of Health so that the Department of Health became less a deliverer of programs and

76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 more of an oversight, if I could use those terms, body with respect to how health care is managed n the province. i It was a very distinct and a very clear direction that was given to the Department of Health to function on that basis. With respect to the way that both the Sinclair and Thomas commission made recommendations, we take those recommendations very seriously and have endeavoured and undertook a process of organization along the lines as recommended by Sinclair and more specifically by Thomas as it relates to the organization of Health.

In that respect the organization chart as it appears on the page reflects those aspects of reorganization whereby there is a Health Accountability section, a Health Program

section workforce responsible and responsible for mental health division regional programs and services and of course the Chief Financial Officer. Under the Health Accountability there are various accountability functions. Also, directly under the Regional Programs and Services are the various supports that relate to regionalization, regionalization support, the ongoing both supports and assistance to regions as it relates to the Department of Health. As the member might be aware, when we undertook this review, we tried very, very seriously to follow up on those recommendations.

Those recommendations dealt with matters of responsibility and matters of accountability. It was clearly a direction that was both recommended and one that we followed up on. Mrs. Driedger: Certainly Paul Thomas had great concern for discretionary accountability that could be used by a Minister of Health, indicating that it was cloudy accountability and that certainly those lines of accountability needed to be better delineated.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Where in this organizational chart does it become clear the role of the minister versus the role of the RHAs and where that accountability fits and where that cloudy accountability disappears? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, it is very clear that the Sinclair commission that examined the structure and the foundation of government in the mid nineties during that very, very sad period clearly indicated that the system was not responding and picking up difficulties.

As a result, quite directly the tragedy, the longest inquest in the history of the Commonwealth, I believe, occurred, which examined the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the 12 pediatric patients at the Children's Hospital. It was very clear that there were numerous matters that required follow-up.

The Thomas commission went looking at the recommendations of the Sinclair inquiry, made some very specific recommendations with respect to administration and essentially put it into a framework aside from all of the other recommendations made in the Thomas commission, of which there are numerous, and there has been significant follow-up. It was a very clear direction that one of the functions of the Department of Health would be to oversee the operations with respect to the regions and have those results and those particular operations analyzed and reviewed by the Department of Health. Mrs.

Driedger: The minister gave a cloudy answer, really, to concerns that Paul Thomas had about cloudy accountability, and it is not clear here. I do not mean to nitpick about this, but I think it is important, in view of the concerns raised about discretionar y accountability by Mr. Thomas, to understand where that line is between the Minister of Health and the RHAs. * (15:10) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, as the member may or may not be aware, because the member had the opportunity, as I understand, to be the assistant to the former Mi nister of Health during her tenure in the Legislature, there are annual planning and capital plans, documents that go to the Department of Health for review that are reviewed by the Department of Health, planning documents as well as strategic plans that are reviewed by the Department of Health and that are examined on a regula r basis and therefore qualified and dealt with by the Department of Health.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 77 Those subsequently form the framework of the Estimates and Expenditure processes that subsequently result in the delivery of programs. Mrs. Driedger: I thank the minister for that nonanswer, but that is okay because I will come back to this one in a short period of time. I would like to ask the minister why Mr. Dedi was removed from the bottom line connecting all the other ADMs in the organizational chart. Mr.

Chomiak: Just for the member's clarification, I recomme nd the member review The Regional Health Authorities Act, which very clearly delineates the responsibilities of both the minister and the region as it relates to both discretionary and non-discretionary unctions. f I apologize to the member. I did not realize that perhaps she was not familiar with that act, but if she had a chance to review that act, it is very clear what the roles and responsibilities are by legislation. Mrs. Driedger: I had had a question of the minister about Mr. Dedi. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, as it says on the chart, Mr.

Dedi is responsible for a series of special projects in the Department of Health. Mrs. Driedger: I was curious why he was not on the same line as other ADMs. That seems a little bit unusual. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I do not know if there is anything suggestive with respect to that matter.

The Legislative Unit, the Chief Medical Officer, the Federal-Provincial Policy unit and the Special Projects portion are all on he same line. t It is delineated in terms of function and role, and then, subsequently, when one looks down to the five various program categories, it then delineates specific areas and specific program functions. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate when Mr. Dedi received the position of special projects and what exactly is included in that particular role? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, if memory serves us correctly, it was sometime in the late fall, I believe, of '02. Mr.

Dedi is still involved in a number of workforce-related issues for the Department of Health. Mrs. Driedger: Is the minister indicating that these special projects are all workforce-related then? Mr. Chomiak: With respect to the projects, Mr. Chairperson, some of th em are in a planning capacity and would not necessarily be categorized as all related to workforce. Mrs. Driedger: In view of what appears to be some of his workload, does it then actually really warrant him being in the position of an ADM? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the role and the function remains as it is. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, certainly, the minister has not given a very clear picture of what his ADM does in the area of special projects. I would think that would be a position where there could be some very exciting things, but it also could be a position where there could be duplication between what is happening there then, and, if he is talking about health workforce, where somebody else has a whole portfolio in that area, it either appears to me that it is either a shuffling off of Mr. Dedi, or, I mean, is there any real significance to that role? Is it a big enough job that warrants a position of ADM?

I would think that, if it does, the minister should be able to be more clear about what types of special projects are involved in that. Mr. Chomiak: The role and the function, first off, the capacity of the Department of Health is not such that there is a good deal of duplication with respect to functions and roles. We simply do not have the capacity for those kinds of individuals or bodies around. The member talked earlier on in her comments about the work done by people in Health and the extraordinary workloads that are taken by people in Health, weekends, nighttimes, extended meetings.

Numerous occasions extraordinary efforts are made. There is not any significant capacity with respect to individuals duplicating positions.

78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 Mrs. Driedger: Well, it is still not clear to me what exactly Mr. Dedi does in his job as Special Projects. Again I would indicate that if he has got the title of ADM, the minister should be able to more clearly define what those special projects are. I certainly hope that he could do that. Mr. Chomiak: There are a number of projects that he is involved in that have significant impact with respect to the Department of Health, and he continues to work on them. Mrs.

Driedger: I gather from the minister's evasiveness on answering the question that perhaps he is not fully apprised of what special projects Mr. Dedi is actually involved with. I wonder if he might be able to table a listing of some of those or all of those projects that Mr. Dedi is involved with. As there are with other ADMs, there is a whole list under each one of them as to what exactly they are doing. Here we have got a person that has a job called Special Projects, and yet it is not clear at all what this person is doing to warrant the title of ADM. Mr.

Chomiak: The projects are significant planning and a significant expertise requirement in the Department of Health that he continues to work on them, Mr. Chairperson. A number of the projects are still in the planning stages. I am not in a position at this point to make that particular information public. Mrs. Driedger: I see I am not going to get any further there. I am disappointed that he would not commit to tabling any information on that. I will ask though: The Health Workforce and, particularly, Responsible for Mental Healththat is the

part I am zeroing in on: Responsible for Mental Healthwhen was that aspect of the job added into that title? Then underneath there does not seem to be any special listing related to mental health. I would like to know, is there a good fit here between health workforce and responsible for mental health, or was that just sort of st uck in there, or does it have a significant role? Mr. Chomiak: I think, Mr. Chairperson, if the member would have looked further into the Supplementary Estimates books, there are some explanations in that regard. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, could the minister tell me if there is a significant role that is being played in that area of responsible for mental health? Mr. Chomiak: Can the member repeat the question, please? Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the minister regarding the person who has the role, responsible for mental health: What are the significant aspects of that job? * (15:20) Mr. Chomiak: One of the reasons that that particular individual has mental health under that particular job description was that that individual is responsible for strategic initiatives.

The member may not be aware of the fact that we have identified mental health as one of the top three priorities for delivery with respect to the province. The fact that that individual happened to be responsible in the strategic initiatives for that program function continued in that particular area. Mrs. Driedger: I would certainly like to acknowledge the efforts that have been made. In Estimates last year, I know that the minister did lay out a plan for mental health.

I had indicated at the time it would be great to see something like that on a broader basis coming from him about his vision for health care, but certainly it was delineated in the area of mental health, and I do give him credit for that. I am certainly interested in the issue of mental health in terms of we have put forward the recommendation of having a mental health advocate, because I think that is very important. Certainly mental health is seen as the orphan in health care. There are many instances where people are falling through the cracks in mental health.

That is why I am just curious as to how that is sort of stuck in there and if that can be something that can even be evolved into a mental health advocate or have a mental health advocate somewhere in here, preferably reporting to the Minister of Health directly, but it is in there, and then ther e is nothing in that line underneath to flesh it out any more.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 79 Mr. Chomiak: That is the danger with just reading a chart and drawing conclusions from simply looking at the chart and not in detail reviewing the information underneath it. The member may or may not know that we have prioritized mental health as one of the top three priorities for all regions for delivery of health in the province of Manitoba. It has been very much a high priority of this Government and continues to be a priority of this Government with respect to the delivery of care, and, I daresay, Mr.

Chairperson, as we indicated in last year's discussion with respect to our plan that rolled out the very quite graphic plan and a quite graphic, obvious direction that mental health was going in this province, that we had taken some significant steps with respect to mental health, particularly since the void had developed between about 1995 until about 1999, when it seemed to fall off the radar screen. We have reinjected some enthusiasm and we have reinjected some activity into that area. It does and will remain very much a significant priority of this particular Government.

It does become a significant issue and it does become a significant item to discuss with respect to how one organizes. I note that in Alberta, where there was a free-standing mental health agency, the Mazankowski report recommended in fact what Manitoba is doing. That is that mental health services ought to be blended into the deliveries of the regional health authorities and not function as a stand-alone agency in its own right.

I think that that was significant, that in fact the Mazankowski report that had reviewed the Alberta situation where it had its own free-standing agency with respect to mental health has now followed and has now been directed to follow the lines that we proceeded on in Manitoba, and that is to make mental health a key component of the strategic direction of all of the regions in terms of program delivery, et cetera.

I note that in the document put out by members opposite with respect to "the directions for health care in the next little while" there was mention, I believe, of an ombudsman, I thought the member could correct mein their blueprint. I take note of the member's comment of advocacy for an advocate in this area. Mrs. Driedger: A couple of points to raise regarding the minister's comments. He says that it is dangerous to look at a chart and make assumptions from that. I believe that is why we have Estimates, to be able to ask for that kind of information.

I note, though, that in asking this minister questions we do not often have the answers coming in a very direct way. That is the intent of Estimates, to be able to have that dialogue of questions and answers. I certainly look forward to perhaps a better set of Estimates this time around, where the minister is more transparent with his answers, that we can have these kinds of questions answered so that the minister does not go around making these comments, well, it is dangerous to make assumptions about things.

That is certainly why e do have the Estimates process. w The minister also indicated that in Alberta Mazankowski had indicated that they did not recommend a stand-alone mental health program. I do not either. I think it is important to incorporate it into the regional health authorities, because you have a more seamless approach to care.

I would say though that because it is such an orphan in health care that having a mental health advocate as somebody separate to listen to complaints from the public, somebody that could report directly to the minister, I see that above and beyond what Mazankowski was talking about. I do see the value of having it incorporated into the regional health authorities. I would like to ask the minister: When did he create the position of intake co-ordinator in his officeI think it probably has been there for some timeand exactly what does that person do? Mr.

Chomiak: I also look forward to constructive dialogue during the course of these stimates, Mr. Chairperson. E I will just confirm the previous question of the member, but I have always been under the impression that intake co-ordinator has been part of the office for a long period of time, both in the past and when I assumed the office. I will double-check, but I do not think that that has changed.

80 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 Mrs. Driedger: Is this position one where cases are dealt with by the minister's staff? Mr. Chomiak: Can the member just reference specifically where she is looking? Mrs. Driedger: I am not looking in the Estimates. It is just in his staffing in his office. It indicates that he has a special advisor, two special assistants, and an intake co-ordinator. I believe Mr. Chad Samain is that intake co- ordinator, according to the phone book, anyway. I was just asking for clarification as to what that role was. Mr.

Chomiak: The intake co-ordinator deals with health-related matters that occur in the office. As I look around the room, I see at least one individual here who I think used to do that on previous occasions. It has been an ongoing individual, as I understand, in Health who deals with various issues and concerns that come up through the health system. Mrs. Driedger: Is Mr. Samain's role then any different from his special assistant's? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will provide the member with a listing of roles and functions either today or when we next meet. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister tell us how many of his political staff from his office, who may have quit from his office, have been given jobs in the civil service? * (15:30) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the member will have to define what reference the member is making to, quote, political staff. Perhaps the member could define what the member–there are a whole number of individuals who worked both for the previous government and who work for our Government, some of whom I think have positions in the civil service. So if the member could define what the member means by political staff.

I know of several individuals who worked when the member was assistant to the Minister of Health who have positions in the civil service, but I do not know how the member defines, quote, political staff. Mrs. Driedger: We could start with Scott Harland. I believe he has left the minister's office. Is he now working in the civil service? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, there are a number of individuals who have worked both in my office and in Health who are in the civil service both before an d after we came to government.

If the member is going to be querying me about specific individuals, and she mentioned an individual, I will have to get that information. There are individuals, for example, who worked in the office w ho are working now for the federal government, Mr. Chairperson. So I do not have a complete listing or a complete record of subsequent employment by some individuals. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate if he has a vacancy rate policy in Manitoba Health? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, there are certain guidelines that have applied from time to time, and we are obviously trying to fill all crucial roles and continue to fill all crucial roles while ensuring that we can keep our expenditures down. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister put a percentage on that? Is there a policy of 4% or a 6% vacancy rate to be maintained, as there are in other departments. Family Services, I know, has a vacancy rate policy. I think theirs might have been 6 percent. Mr. Chomiak: I will get back to the member on that particular issue. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Chairperson, back in 1999, the NDP at that particular time made a promise that under Today's NDP, vote for us and you will see less bureaucracy and you will see more rontline care. f Can the minister then tell us how it is that he has increased the size of Manitoba Health from the time he was elected till now? I know it is not huge numbers. I believe it might be in the vicinity of 12 people, but the intent with regionalization was that they would be made to be responsible for operations, and Manitoba Health would become the standard setter, the

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 81 policy setter, the evaluators, et cetera, and the intent was with regionalization you would have that bureaucracy and th at Manitoba Health would have been downsized because they are outside of operations. He has indicated today that the organizational chart has been changed to reflect some of that, and yet we are seeing him, despite his big promise in 1999, less bureaucracy, criticizing the Tories for their ever-growing bureaucracy, turning around and actually increasing the size of the bureaucracy.

Can the minister explain how he can do that after making those comments and promises in 1999? Mr. Chomiak: First off, there are significantly more frontline personnel in Health than there was in 1999, Mr. Chairperson, who are actually out there. That is a given and it is largely as a result of training. Just let me give the member an example of when the previous government privatized water testing. They privatized water testing, as did the Ontario government which resulted in Walkerton, Mr. Chairperso n.

We reversed that decision and we brought back a program of not subsidizing water testing, which involved hiring of additional individuals and inspectors in terms of public health, et cetera. In that regard, there have been several positions created in a variety of services being delivered. By any count, Mr. Chairperson, there are more nurses, more doctors, more lab technicians, more sonographers, more radiation therapists working in Manitoba today. Mrs. Driedger: The minister has totally avoided the question.

He made a commitment in 1999 to less bureaucracy and criticized the Tories at that time and said the Filmon Tories created a whole new level of bureaucracy. Then he has turned around and added to the bureaucracy of Manitoba Health by not a huge number, but that is beside the point, because his promise was to decrease it, and, in fact, he has grown the bureaucracy. Can he explain why he would make a promise like that and then turn around and be so ineffective in carrying it out? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, the increase in public health officials and the increase in public health capacity, I know, was neglected under the previous government. If the member wants to say that hiring public officers of health is increased bureaucracy, then I will take that, but I will note that the member and her party had two health regions in the city of Winnipeg, had 11 vice-presidents in the city of Winnipeg and numerous levels of bureaucracy and continued to have that which we eliminated upon coming into office. Mrs. Driedger: Certainly, the minister hasI understand his sensitivity to this.

It is another broken promise. It makes one wonder what the promises were based on, but he also criticized the budgets for Executive Support, Finance and Administration, and Corporate Services, saying they increased. Well, I would like to indicate under the NDP, they have increased too. These are important issues. He was complaining in 1999 that too much was spent around these particular budgets and, in fact, under his watch, if I have added correctly, he is up in the vicinity of extra spending of $623,000.

So not only has he not downsized the bureaucracy, as he committed to do, he has hired 12 more people, plus we have the bureaucracy of all of the regions, particularly the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. Then on top of it he has increased the budgets for Executive Support, Finance and Administration, and Corporate Services, which I believe might even have a new name now of Central Services. I ask him to explain how this could happen when he has made one commitment on one hand and he is doing something totally the opposite. ow can he rationalize this? H * (15:40) Mr.

Chomiak: That is one of the problems when the member gets a little bit caught up on global numbers. The member has had difficulty in the past and had to stand down with respect to some of the allegations concerning the administration of the WRHA, concerning some

82 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 of the issues. Notwithstanding that, when we go line by line I would be happy to go through those specific positions and deal with all those positions with the member. For the member to make the blanket statement, I think, is not appropriate at this time. I am prepared to go line by line and compare positions, but to make the global statement in that regard, with respect to both expansion of programs in a number of areas, in enhanced salaries that are natural increases that occur every year.

In light of the fact, the member's commitment and some of the comments I heard from the members, particularly during the election campaign, about election commitments I suggest does not reconcile itself with what she is saying here today. If the member wants to go line by line and deal with specific positions and specific matters I am happy to do that, because with respect to the matters of increases or decreases there have been increases in a number of program delivery areas.

Let me give you an example of the enhanced capacity of the Department of Health as a result of the security measures of 9-11, as a result of the water testing, as a result of the various functions. That is one example where there has been some enhanced activity for obvious reasons. To make the blanket statement that the member is making is not accurate. I am prepared to do it on a line by line basis but I do not think the member's addition has been particularly accurate in the past and I am not willing to accept the member's quick calculations at this point. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister confirm that on page 14 of the Supplementary Information he is showing a position

summary and that the total number of people in FTEs is 1106.60? Mr. Chomiak: Yes, that is what it says. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister confirm with his staff here that in 2000-2001 there were 1094.69 positions? Mr. Chomiak: I will get back to the member on that particular number. Mrs. Driedger: Well, it is easy for the minister then to make accusations to me, but he has his staff here. He could certainly be digging out the information instead of leaving information on the record that I may have my numbers wrong. He has an opportunity here to clarify and defend his comments. Mr.

Chomiak: I believe the member's comment was something along the lines of since 1999 there have been 12 additional positions at the Department of Health as opposed to, of the 1000 or so positions in the Department of Health, the member is making the allegation that because there are 12 additional positions there has been, quote, I think the member said: a broken promise. I indicated to the member that I am prepared to go line by line to look at those particular positions and then we can conclude specifically what and if those positions are. Mrs.

Driedger: Is the minister then confirming that there are 12 more positions in Manitoba Health? Mr. Chomiak: By no means, Mr. Chairperson, because the member is only giving me that advice. I will have to confirm and go line by line, which again is one of the difficulties, If we are discussing global information, which is what we are doing, and the member wants to go line by line then I think we are going to have to change the procedure and go line by line because the member cannot have it both ways. Mrs.

Driedger: I am certainly speaking about a policy issue from the NDP's own news release during the election, which if the minister would care to have a look it is his own commitment made on September 1, 1999, criticizing the Tories ever-growing bureaucracy saying it is too large, that the budgets were increasing and that he was going to make everybody more accountable, the health boards more accountable to Manitobans by allowing the election of the majority of these seats of the regional health authorities. He is going to cut senior bureaucrats in the Department of Health.

I am asking him to address this particular news release and indicate whether or not he has achieved all these promises he made in 1999.

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 83 Mr. Chomiak: I guess we are back to the member revisiting the '99 election, which we have done for four years. I welcome that and I am quite prepared to relive the last election and go through that if that is what the member wants to deal with. If the member recalls, our commitment was to take the two authorities that the Tories had set up. Imagine, in the city of Winnipeg, there were two health authorities set up to manage one region, 11 vice-presidents, while nurses had been let go at astounding rates.

To quote the chair, well, I will not quote the MNU president because the member gets upset when I quote the MNU president with respect to the thousand people laid off. But to quote the MNU report, a thousand nurses were laid off, the doctors class was decreased, et cetera. We said more resources had to go to the front line and by all counts whether one looks at '99 or whether one looks at 2003, we have increased that capacity. In addition, we took two health authorities that had been put in place by the previous government and merged them into one.

As well, we also eliminated a number of boards and moulded those particular boards into the functions of the WRHA and into the functions of various other regions outside of Winnipeg. In fact, we also took two rural regions and combined them in order to achieve some efficiencies. That was done with respect to getting more money, more resources to the front lines. That was undertak en and that was done quite significantly. With respect to the Department of Health budget, the administrative costs have been kept to a minimum. There has been some additional programming.

I am prepared to go through that line by line, but I am not prepared to accept an overall blanket statement from the member with respect to particular numbers because there are a number of programs, particularly in public health, that were neglected by the previous administration that additional resources had to be put in. Mrs. Driedger: I have to wonder what the NDP were all about in 1999 when they put forward a number of promises in an election. You know, elect me and I am going to make all of these changes. Then they have failed to keep almost every one of them. Here is one in particular.

It was so easy back then to criticize. I think the minister is finding out it is a little bit harder sometimes to make the kinds of changes that he so arrogantly believed could be made in 1999 without doing his homework at the time. Certainly, with the challenges in health care, it poses incredible challenges for a Minister of Health.

It is obvious that with this particular promise he could not fulfil the promise to decrease the size of the bureaucracy but it certainly begs some questions about how he is managing his portfolio when we have these two huge bureaucracies, well, two, Manitoba Health plus you add all the RHA bureaucracies on top of it and we do have some serious issues that need to be addressed. I know he gets a little testy about it. In fact, I should tell the minister that when I retire from politics and write about my time in politics, I am going to save a

chapter for him in my book and it is going to be called Dancing with a Porcupine. Certainly, doing Estimates with this minister sometimes can be very painful because all we do is seek the truth and we seek transparency and accountability with th e answers instead of rhetoric, evasiveness and testiness and sometimes even paranoia about fear of being trapped by the questions. I assure the minister that all I am doing is seeking the truth in what I am asking of him. As a Minister of Health, I have a high expectation of the person in that job, that they would come forward with the answers to this.

All he has to say is no, I have failed to meet that commitment. I have failed to decrease the size of the bureaucracy. I have failed to decrease the budgets. He had no caveats attached to those promises he made at the time. He was going to elect me and I am going to make these changes happen and he did not. All he needs to do now is say yes, the challenges were greater. I could not do it. Is he still committed to doing that? * (15:50) Mr. Chomiak: I do not intend to write a book when I retire, but if I do devote a

chapter to the member, it would be the truth shall set thee

84 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 free. Plus, I thought we got over the member's fixation with the '99 election. We have done that for almost four years. The member has never accepted the fact that the Government was defeated largely, for a major part, because of its lack of caring and commitment in health care. I do not want to express it in those words but it is my firm belief that that was one of the reasons.

The past four years we have launched a platform that we took to the people of Manitoba several months ago based on the '99 commitments, based on new commitments that we took to the people of Manitoba and said do you approve or not approve of what we have been doing the last four years? I had actually thought we were going to come here in the Estimates and deal with some of the current issues, but we continue to go back to the member's fixation with 1999. The fact is there was an election and we won. For four years now we have been the Government. We have done the best we can in health care.

As I have said on many occasions, it has not been perfect. We think we have improved the situation. I think the public has responded that the situation has improved and that we are going to continue to do that on a regular basis. If the member wants to go back to '99 and continue to rehash those issues that we have done for the past four years, I am happy to do that. It is only my opinion.

I suggest that we get on and deal with some of the issues that are facing us today, but if the member wants to go back and do this again, I am happy to do this because not only am I willing to stand on the '99 record, I already have stood on the '99 record through the course of an election campaign, Mr. Chairperson, an election campaign where the member took out radio ads to talk about her commitment. I am happy to do that, and if the member wants to do that, that is fine. We will do that again, but I thought we had got over that. I thought we could move on and deal with some of the current issues.

Again, I am at the member's pleasure. If the member wants to refight the '99 campaign, then so be it. We will refight the '99 campaign during the course of these Estimates. Mrs. Driedger: I guess I do not give up easy on some issues when somebody breaks their word, and it is a word that is made to vulnerable people in Manitoba, like vote for me and I will cure the ills of the system. My point is just to say that the minister failed in that particular area, and he certainly has grandstanded enough on some of these issues. All I am asking him for is a straight answer.

Has he increased the size of the Manitoba bureaucracy? The numbers seem to suggest yes. Has the budget increased in those particular areas? The numbers seem to suggest yes. All I am asking for is just a straightforward answer about that because it is in contradiction to what he put forward. Certainly I am prepared to move on past that. I certainly appear to have the answers I need from this minister in that particular area. I would like to go back to something I spent a considerable amount of time on in Estimates last summer, and that is cardiac surgery.

In January of 2001 I suggested the Minister of Health send patients needing urgent heart surgery out of the provin ce for surgery. I had heard from people close to the program that the program was in trouble, in fact that it was crumbling at the Health Sciences Centre. The minister ignored my warning. Last summer, in Estimates, I spent hours questioning the minister on this issue because of my fears that if he did not do something, I was afraid patients were going to die. I felt that having one surgeon wo rking at the Health Sciences Centre and three at St. Boniface Hospital was not safe.

The minister assured me in Estimates last summer that there were enough surgeons. When we left government, almost 1400 surgeries were done that year. It dropped steadily. An Honourable Member: No. Mrs. Driedger: Yes, 1394. It dropped steadily under the NDP and last year in Estimates the minister felt that 1173 surgeries were enough to meet Manitoba's needs. I note that in both of these instances the minister was wrong, that Doctor Koshal suggested we need seven surgeons and not five a nd that Doctor Koshal recommended 1500 surgeries at least for the first year, and the minister was quite happy.

He felt that 1173 were adequate. Despite the fact that surgeries were being bumped, sometimes five times, I asked the minister to order an external

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 85 review of the program, and we did spend a considerable amount of time on that. Because of my nursing background and the information that I was hearing, I was afra id that patients were going to die. My warnings were brushed aside by this Minister of Health. Then patients started to die and information about others who had died previously came to light. I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he accepts any responsibility for these deaths. Mr. Chomiak: I note, Mr.

Chairperson, that even in the member's question, in her review of Doctor Koshal's report, she is inaccurate. She is wrong. The member cannot even read the Koshal report and get the recommendations right. Let me just quote for the member. Doctor Koshal recommended in several years moving up to 1500 surgeries and moving up to seven surgeons if you move up to 1500 surgeries with respect to a program. Did the member not read the report? For 25 years the program in Manitoba has been back and forth. The member had an opportunity when she worked. She was the assistant to the Minister of Health.

She had opportunity to implement the recommendations and did not. When we hired Doctor Koshal and told Doctor Koshal to come in and do a review, we said we were going to do something that had not been done for 20 or 25 years and he produced 42 recommendations in a report that we said we would implement. Now the member cannot even get the recommendation right, never mind some of the data that the members put with respect to her question. In addition, Mr.

Chai rperson, I suggest the member very carefully r ead the report and very carefully read the r ecommendations and very carefully pay attention to what Doctor Koshal says because Doctor Koshal said a number of factors that I think are ve ry useful and allow us to move forward with respect to our cardiac program, a program that Dr. Koshal himself says has been studied and reviewed, and because of a variety of factors, recommendations in numerous reports were not implemented. We have taken it upon ourselves to take the Koshal report and implement it. Now, Mr.

Chairperson, I have said that every time there is a death or a problem in the system we all have to bear some kind of responsibility. The system will make mistakes. It is our responsibility when errors are made to try to learn from those errors and try to improve the situation. That is what the very essence of the Sinclair and Thomas report was, when there are problems in the system. The problem in 1994 when the baby deaths occurred was that there was not an ability in the system to follow up on those situations. That is why Thomas and Sinclair called for systems to be put in place.

I suggest to the member that she carefully read the Koshal report because in her two statements, her two statements talking about the Koshal report are quite candidly inaccurate. If we are going to have a discussion about the Koshal report, if we are going to have a discussion about cardiac surgery, then we should do it on an accurate reflection and an accurate reading of the particular recommendations in the report. The report talked about moving to 1500 surgeries and talked about moving to up to seven surgeons. I will cite the page for the member if she wants to review that particular page.

It also had 42 recommendations. It was also very clear that Doctor Koshal recommended that we implement a lot of these recommendations, some of which the member had an opportunity to implement and did not implement when she was assistant to the Minister of Health, some very important recommendations, to implement them and proceed. It is our understanding that we are going to move on and implement the ecommendations in the Koshal report. r * (16:00) I note, Mr. Chairperson, that the member and her party and the Liberal Party very graphically used this issue in their ads, day in and day out.

It was the lead in their ads and I note that. I know we said we would take action and we would implement the Koshal report and we intend to implement the Koshal report, something that was not done for 20 or 25 years, despite numerous recommendations and numerous discussions with respect to the cardiac program. I also note, Mr. Chairperson, that when we brought forward changes to our cardiac program the member opposite opposed those particular

86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 changes. I made it very clear, both in the last Estimates and previous Estimates that this was a program undergoing rebuilding. It was undergoing rebuilding from what had happened and not happened during the 1990s and previously. That is where we intend to go. We intend to take the Koshal report, we intend to implement the Koshal report. I am mindful of the fact that it is not a given and it is not an easy task.

One of the reasons it has not been done over the past 25 years is that it is a complex matter, but that is our intention and that is our goal, to implement the recommendations of the Koshal report, to get off of the bickering and the back and forth and the turf wars and to move forward to improve patient care. Patient care is the bottom line. That is the reason we are in this Legislature. That is the reason we do what we do every single day. That is what we can continue to do. That is what the Koshal report talks about. That is what we intend to undertake. Mrs.

Driedger: I would like to repeat my question to the minister as he did not answer it and ask him if he takes any responsibility for these deaths. He certainly had warnings, brushed them off and could have moved on this bringing in a third-party surgeon a year ago. I mean, does he take any responsibility for these deaths? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the entire health care system on a day-to-day basis is something that we monitor and we look at and we take action when there are difficulties.

When there are difficulties in the heart program, or when we saw there were difficulties in the heart p r o g r a m w e t o o k s o m e s t e p s t o d e a l w i t h t h a t . We also put in place a mechanism to move on and to improve the program and to ensure that we have a centre of excellence here in Manitoba. That is our goal and that is what we intend to do. Mrs. Driedger: I think the minister was playing politics with this issue. I think it was negligent politics. He brushed off my warnings because he did not want the Tory critic to get any credit.

Instead, he did it his way and now patients are ead. d I would like to ask this Minister of Health why he never apologized to Sean Gorsuch for the death of his mother. Mr. Chomiak: When I released the Gorsuch report, the Gorsuch report had 42 recommendations with respect to how to improve cardiac care in the province of Manitoba. The report also indicated, Doctor Koshal's report indicated that in every single system, unfortunately, because people arelet me quote Doctor Koshal. Doctor Koshal indicated that people will die on waiting lists.

That is unfortunate but we must do everything in our power to ensure that, to the extent possible, we ensurethat is a quote from Doctor Koshal. I do not know if the member was at the conference when Doctor Koshal from Edmonton made that particular comment, that we must do everything in our power to learn from developments, to improve the program and to ensure that we put in place the recommendations of Doctor Koshal. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, on behalf of Sean Gorsuch, who has asked the question and the minister has just avoided answering it, I would like the minister to indicate why he never apologized to Sean Gorsuch for the death of his mother. Mr. Chomiak: I know that when Mr. Gorsuch was here and held a press conference with the members opposite during the campaign I did not have a chance to talk to Mr. Gorsuch. I also know that during the course of the external review it was very important that the family have opportunities to speak with the external review people. I understand that Mr.

Gorsuch had an opportunity to talk to Doctor Koshal. Mrs. Driedger: Certainly, with this particular program, if I, a politician, knew about the problems in the program, others must have known about it too. Surely the minister must have been informed or forewarned about the dangers to patient safety with this program. In fact, his connections are far better than mine and I would have thought he would have heard about it long before I did. I have to ask him why he would have ignored these warnings. This was a ticking time bomb and yet he did nothing. Even after I started giving warnings he did nothing.

Why did he ignore, not only my warnings, but I am sure he must have been

September 8, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 87 hearing from people in the WRHA through his staff about this? Mr. Chomiak: I am not sure I am clear what the member is referring to. Mrs. Driedger: Well, I will ask the minister then: When did he first know about all of the problems with the cardiac surgery program? In 2000? Mr. Chomiak: I knew about the problems in the cardiac surgery program when I became the Health critic in 1993. Mrs. Driedger: If the minister had that kind of information, then why did he not heed my warnings much more seriously if he had had these same concerns himself back in 1993? Mr.

Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, that is why I became very involved with respect to the pediatric cardiac program and was very active in terms of trying to bring this issue to light and the difficulties that occurred with respect to that program and was very happy to not only receive the inquest results when we subsequently became government but to have the opportunity to effect change in a system with the Sinclair and the Thomas report, which we did undertake very strenuously with respect to programming and how we deal with difficulties and how we deal with problems. Mrs.

Driedger: The minister did not answer the question and I will ask him again. I truly am interested in why he brushed off my warnings at that time. He had an opportunity. He is saying he knew there were problems in the program going back to 1993. Why then would he not have done something about it a lot sooner in his portfolio? Why did he brush off my warnings? My warnings were fairly serious ones. I had a suggestion for an external review a year ago. Why did he ignore these warnings when he even says he knew about the problems in the system going back a long time? * (16:10) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, Doctor Koshal indicated there were problems in the program when the member, who is so very concerned about her warnings, was the assistant to the Minister of Health and did nothing with respect to the various recommendations of cardiac reports. [interjection] Oh, now the member did not know. You know, Mr. Chairperson, if the member wants to go very personal and personalize it, I do not think that is the appropriate way to go. I think we should talk about programs. I think we should talk about issues, and I think we should talk about how they are solved.

But the fact is, Doctor Koshal identified a program that had been reviewed over 25 years, recommendations not acted upon. I might add to the member that when we brought in our cardiac program several years ago, the member criticized our moving forward. She criticized the expansion of the program. She criticized the site of the program. Then th ere was a flip-flop with respect to the Tory position about where it should be. Mr. Chairperson, the key issue is when there was a problem, we moved along. We had an external review. We have 42 recommendations.

We intend to follow up and get out of this very, very small "p" and large "p" political morass that we have been in with respect to the cardiac program for 25 years. If the member reads Doctor Koshal's report, that is essentially what Doctor Koshal indicated within his report. He indicated, quote: This program has been reviewed extensively over the years with very similar recommendations to those in this report emanating from those reviews, et cetera, et cetera. What Doctor Koshal talked about was implementation. That is what we are committed to, Mr. Chairperson.

I would hope that the member would be committed to the implementation as well as we are. Mrs. Driedger: The minister said why did I not do something when I was legislative assistant to the Minister of Health. Well, I did not know about this when I was the legislative assistant to the Minister of Health.

88 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2003 The moment I did know about it, in January 2001, I put my first suggestion forward to the minister. I heard about the problems and the serious concerns from some of these frontline people over Christmas, and in January, at my earliest convenience, I did draw attention to this issue, unlike the minister, who is saying he knew about the problems with this issue way back when, and he did not act, and he did not even act when I started to bring forward my really serious concerns.

Is the Minister of Heal th aware that by doing nothing after being warned about this, it put patient safety at risk and perhaps contributed to the deaths of these cardiac patients? Mr. Chomiak: No, Mr. Chairperson.

In fact, the record shows that there were several actions taken, both by this minister and by the Government with respect to the cardiac program, not only in our cardiac enhancement program which the member tends to overlook and forget about, but, as well, in numerous actions with respect to dealing with wait lists, dealing with bumping and dealing with alternative options offered to physicians for patients in the event that they were on a wait list. Mrs. Driedger: I still believe, Mr. Chairperson,

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-1-02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 1st hansardpdf 02.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8198012c9558d30e7b71737079c2d3815ab5a6e5

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).