Manitoba Hansard — 6 December 1988 (Sitting 92, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-92

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

l-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 92 - 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, DECEMBER 6, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA lEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME AlCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Steve BURRELL, Parker CARR,James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, Wi lliam CONNERY, Edward Hon.·.· COWAN,Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOW NEY, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon.

GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, ll<evin, M. MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. OLESON, Charlotte Hon. ORCHARD, Donald Hon. PANKRATZ, Helmut PATTERSON, Allan PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren ROCAN; Denis, Hon. ROCH, Gilles ROSE, Bob STORIE, Jerry TAYLOR, Harold URUSKI, Bill WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy YEO, lva CONSTITUENCY Osborne St.

Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge ·River Heights Selkirk Kildorian Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Russell Concordia Arthur .Emerson Niakwa Aiel St. James · Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandori East Tuxedo Virden St. Boniface Minnedosa Ellice Kirkfield .Park Tlle Pas > Rupertsland Gimli . Logan Transcona lnks ter Elmwood Assiniboia . Morris Brandon West Sev en Oaks River Ea�t Rossmere Gladstone Pembina · La Verendrye Radissori Rhineland Dauphin · Lac du Bonnet Turtle Mountain Springfield St. Vital Flin Flon Wolseley lnterlake St.

Johns Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBER AL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBER AL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, December 6, 1988. The House met at ,:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Mark Minenko (Chairman of the Committee of Supply): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions , directs me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again . I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), that the report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report , 1987-88, or the Manitoba Health Research Council. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL NO. 52-AN ACT TO AMEND

AN ACT TO INCORPORATE "THE WINNIPEG CANOE CLUB" Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital) introduced, by leave, Bill No. $2,

An Act to Amend

An Act to incorporate " The Winnipeg Canoe Club "; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant n corporation "The Winnipeg Canoe Club ." MOTION presented. -Mr. Rose: Mr. Speaker , just a few brief notes in regard lo this Bill that gives me a lot of pleasure to introduce . t he Winnipeg Canoe Club in my riding in St. Vital is lhe second oldest private club in this whole nation , in , Canada, first incorporated by Letters Patent in 1893, ond then incorporated by

an Act of this Assembly in 19 14. This Bill authorizes capital stock from 1,000 shares to 2,000 shares at a maximum aggregate r.onsideration of $1 million from its present half-a-million ollars. This Bill is required due to expansion of the club at this time. I am pleased t o report to this Legislature and 1housands of past members of the club who hold fond memories of the club that the club is healthy and prospering , and that the executive and 1,000-plus members hope for a speedy Royal A'ssent to this Bill. QUESTION put, MOTION carried . .. •

(1335) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the Speaker's gallery where we have with us today Dr. Elizabeth. Feniak, , who has been recently appointed a member of the Order of Canada . The award recognizes her contribution at national and provincial levels and her lifelong commitment and dedication to improving and advancing the quality of life for famili _es.

On behalf of all Honourable Members , I welcome you here this · afternoon . · · We also have with us this afternoon , in the public gallery , from the Sisler High School, twenty-five grade 11 students under the direction of-· Mr. Mike Gartner . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux). We also have with us, from the Morden Collegiate, forty-five grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Ron Peters . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).

On behalf of all Honourable Members , I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Municipal Hospitals Upgrading Start Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker , of all of the actions taken by this Government in its first seven months, the one that disturbs me the most is the delay in the replacement of the Municipal Hospitals. The patients of the Municipal Hospitals receive first-class care from a competent and dedicated staff . Several hundred volunteers contr ibute thousands of hours to enhance the quality of care offered at this facility. Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) . Given the dec isions taken by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), and given the First Minister's knowledge of the conditions at this facility, will he now intervene and overrule the Minister of Health to ensure that this project proceeds on time? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I certainly concur with the thoughts expressed by the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) as to the competent and dedicated staff, and the tremendous job that they d0 at the Municipal Hospitals . Mr.

Speaker, I also concur with the Member for Osborne that there is indeed an identified need for an upgrading of that hospital at some point-in the future . That identified need , of course , ·has beeh · there for quite some time. Throughout the previous administration , the Municipal Hospitals were seen as an area of need for future renovation and reconstruction, Mr. Speaker . I understand from my co)Jeague, the Minister of Health, that it is on the five- 3828

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 year Cap ital Program of this Government , and - we expect and hope that we will get to that project in the not too distant future . Mr. Alcock: The project start was included in, the 1987- 1988 Capital Program of the previous Go11,0rnment but does not appear in the 1988-1989 program distributed In this House . It is not moving forward in a timely fashion and those people In that hospital need the assistance flOW; I would ask the First Minister , will he please speak to the Minister of Health and see this project proceeds on time? Mr.

Fllmon: Unfortunately , the previous Government took the decision to freeze construction , in fact , all of the capital construction works in the area of health care, hospitals , and personal care homes , and that is a legacy that we are left with .

We have a backlog of many capital construction works in health care that we have to deal with , So we are left with the largest per capita debt in the country by a Government that spent money hand over fist and left us with the second highest overall level of taxation and with expectat ions and unfulfilled needs in the area of health care that exceed the capacity of the Government to build_ within this coming fiscal year. It is on the five-year program . We hope and expect to get to it as quickly as possible . Capital Programs Municipal Hospitals Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I would remind the First Minister that he is now the Government and that they are not spending any less money, they are not saving any money, they are redirecting away from this project to other projects . It is a matter of their priorities . It is not the decision of the previous Government, It Is their decision . Will he act now to restore this project? Hon .· Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of interest that I enter Question Period on the issue of Municipal Hospitals.

I think that through some commun ication after Wednesday '-s Question Period when the Opposition Hou!l8 Leader brought up Municipal Hospitals, there · "'(as some confused, improper and incorrect information . transmitted to-Municipal Hospitals and to the people of Manitoba . · •

(1340) First of all, someone indicated to Municipal Hospital s they were not on the five-year Capital Program . Now I want to . refer to my honourable friend, the Member .for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) , page 3324, where I took pains with my honourable friends in the Opposition who chose to take 30 minutes to pass $1.4 billion of Capital and health care spending to explain the unique status that Municipal Hospitals were put in, along with Concordia Hospital, which was questioned by the Leader of the New .Democratic Party (Mr. Doer), Grace Hospital and ·0eer Lodge Hospital.

There was no removal of Municipal Hospitals from the Capital Program , as someone indicated to the Municipal Hosp itals . Mr. Speaker: Order , please ; order, please . Mrs. Sharon Carstaira (leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , on -a point of order. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I do not have a mike again today . The Honourable Leader of the Oppos iti on, on a point of order . Mrs. Carstairs: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) of this province across the floor of this House accused one of the Members of lying .

He used the word " lies" and we all know that is unparliament ary. and I request that the Honourable Firs t Min is ter withdraw . Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , it I. unfortunate that the term " lies" is unparliamentary when of course it absolutely reflects exactly what the Membe1 for Oshorne (Mr. Alcock) has done . Having recogn ized that, Mr. Speaker, I certainly withdraw the term because. it is indeed unparliamentary. Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honourable First Min ister. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker , with a new question .

I thin k the actions of the First Minister speak loudly , as they always do in this House , but I would like to addr ess the statements made by the Ministe r of Health (Mr. Orchard) when he talked about the length of time spent in Health Estimates . We spent 35 hours and 55 minute s in Health Estimates listening to this Minister foam at the mouth , and I invite anybody to read the Estimates and they will understand why we cut that short and we did ask about the Municipal Hospitals. Municipal Hospitals Workplace Safety and Health Order Mr.

Reg Alcock (Osborne): I have a question for the Minister respons ible for Workplace Safety and Health (Mr. Connery) . I have a copy of the Workplace Safety and Health order that was issued to the Municip al Hosp itals , that references the upright steam radiator

s) which are a source of burns to patients and staff, have been a source of burns to patients and staff . These must be replaced . It is an order by his department , Mr. Speaker . This order was issued five years ago . They 1 have not been replaced because there was going to be a new building , because there was going to be a , new facility. Now given the controversy over this , I would ask the Minister , has he been made aware of this order? •

(1345) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. 1 Speaker , let me indicate to my honourable friend that he does not hold all of the compassion for those patients who are at Municipal Hospitals . On this side of the House , we are equally concerned with their qual ity of care . That is why it is very regrettable that my honourable friend , the MLA for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) , indicated that the accreditation of the hospital was in danger because of the physical condition of the building . 3829

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 That statement was categorically denied because the accreditation serv ice out of Ottawa indicated that as well as the physical building, the patient care as prov ided by dedicated staff is equally as important in their accreditation and , because the staff is such a fine staff at Municipal Hospitals, that accreditation was not in danger . My honourable friend has identified a problem . There are a number of problems that no one in Government denies exist at Munic ipal Hospitals , I simply indicate to my honourable friend .

In terms of the one-half hours spen t on $1 .4 bill ion of cap ital and commission spending, I had to convince the Members of the Liberal Party to take another 25 minutes because all they wanted to do was spend five minutes on it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order , please . Order. Mr. Alcock: I must confess that the Members in Health Estimates did grow tired of hearing the Minister talk obout Hawaii. As to accred itation , I do have a copy of the standards . Project Delay Mr. Speaker : Would the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) kindly put his question now? Mr.

Reg Alcock (Osborne): I do have a copy of the standards of accredita tion and they do say they must comply with alf orders . The staff in that fac ility are very concerned about the possibility of losing accreditation . II this Minister knew about this outstand ing order , why did he act to delay this project when he knew there was an outstanding work order? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : I can only indicate to my honourable friend, for many of the same reasons that the order was delayed for five years . It Is the intention of Government to replace the Munic ipal Hospitals - those outdated buildings .

My honourable ) friend indicates they were on the Capital Program last year. That Cap ital Program was put on freeze as of approximately November last year by th e previous administ ration . They did it in order to ascertain the Impact on the extended bed care count in the City of Winnipeg , resulting from the opening of 204 beds at Deer Lodge Hospital , a project that was under construction with capital dollars provided by the federal Government and the province responsible for operating costs .

When the initi al plann ing for Mun icipal Hosp ital rep lacemen t was taking place , Deer Lodge reconst ruction was not part of the Winnipeg Hospital planning . Those plans must be analyzed in the impact on the system or else we have to delay other needed proj ects if we make mistakes in comm itting existing capit al. Labour Dept. Intervention Mr. Speaker: T-he, Honourable Member for Osborne , with a final supplementary question. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I wonde r if the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) would use the same term on the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) because the Deer Lodge beds were indeed considered at the time that hospital was being planned . I would ask the Minister for Workplace Safety and Health (Mr. Connery) , given that the renovations are not proceeding with and given that the re is an outstand ing order, will he now ta·ke action to ensure that the order is complied with? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): f will go back through the Archives and see if I can find tt,at order. I have not been made aware of that order. I will dig it up and we will see what it says and we wHI !!(:I appropriately .

Contract Awarding Untendered Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Yesterday, we talked in his Estimates about the principle of fair tendering for contracts in this province under his administrat ion . Can the First Min ister advise Manitobans whether there has been a contract awarded to deal with an Urban Native Strategy? How much is that contract for? Who was this contract awarded to? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : That item would come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) . I will ask him to respond to that. Hon.

James Downey (Minlater responsible for Native Affair1): Mr. Speaker , yes, there has been . Tender Process Unfair Hiring Practices Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is again to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) . In terms of the standards he articulated in his Estimates as Chair of Treasury Board and Premier of this province , can the First Minister confirm that the contract is for $100,000 , that it has been awarded without tender to a firm that the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has stated in Hansard , a resource firm to do works who are friends of the Conservatives?

Could the First Minister confirm that contract has been awarded for $100,000 to that firm on an untendered basis? •

(1350) Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): I do not accept the premise of the Membe r for Concordia (Mr. Doer), who had no problem in appointing Andy Anstett to a great job , a known NOP. How can,, tie stand so righteous in his place and be critical e>f anyone in this regard? We have hired a firm to do a very important job on urban Nativ e studies , an excellent firm using Native people, using Melis people . Is the Leader of the New Democratic Party opposed to the use of Native and Melis peopl e in this province ? 3830

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 Mr. Doer: My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) because it follows on his comments to the House, in the Legislature , in the Estimates last evening, where he stated the principles of his Government on the fair tendering process for his administration with his Conservative Government. My question to the First Minister is, why does he allow his Migister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) to breach his commitment to this province? Why does he allow the Minister of -Northern Affairs to award a $100,000 contract to Conservative friends without any tendering at all?

Why does he allow this In his administration? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, let me assure the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) the normal process of hiring an individual to carry out a very important job on urban Native studies was done-nothing untoward, absolutely and totally up-front, gone through the normal process , totally public, and I will stand by the work, the contract and the work activities that are going to be carried out to better and improve the urban Native situation in this province .

If he is so critical, let him stand on his record of the disaster that he carried out as a Member of Government when he was in office . Mr. Doer: I will stand on my record any day of the week, because he will not find one untendered contract with departments l )Vas responsible for. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order! Urban Native Study Cancellation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) . This contract was like the Stevenson-Kellogg contract. It is connected to the Conservative Party by admission of the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) on August 2 in this House, friends of the Conservative Party. It was. untendered, we have contacted six other companies that have expertise in this area. They were never contacted and asked to provide bids. Will the First Minis~r cancel this contract that has been let by the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs and keep his word to the people of Manitoba and to this Legislature last evening? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, let it be very clear .

The reference to ~hat the Member is making has absolutely nothing ~o do with the contract to which he is talking about. Lef it be very clear as well that the Liberal Party of . this province were pressing for us to get on with the job of doing an urban Native study, pressing us to get on with the job . l would ask the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) to withdraw his accusation that he just made . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Northern and Native .Affairs, on a point of order . Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker , I would ask the Member , the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) , to do the honourable thing and withdraw the statement that he made from his seat. I am not going to repeat it because it is not parliamentary . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition) : I never used the term before in this House, Mr. Speaker , and I guess the circumstances under the tenderin g comm.ent from the Minister led me to do that. I withdraw it, consistent with the parliamentary tradition . Mr.

Speaker: l would like to thank the Honourab le Member for Concordia . *

(1355) AIDS Pamphlet French Language Distribution Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Monsieur le President . ma question est pour le ministre de la Sante . J'ai eu !'occasion de lire le depliant ·que son ministere vierit de produire sur le SIDA. Je tiens a feliciter le ministre d 'avoir produit un travail de qualite qui contient de l'informatlon tranche et utile sur cette important e question . II est absolument imperatif que nous puissions assurer une vaste distribution de ce document.

Le ministre a indique que -les depliants seraient distribues dans le systeme scolaire , dans les cabinets de medecins, ainsi que dans les cliniques de sante. Le ministre n'est pas sans savoir qu'il y a ici dans la province des ecoles et des institutions post-secondaire s ou la langue d'enseignment et de communication est ) le franc;:ais. II y a egalement des etablissements de sante et des medecins qui desservent une population franc ophone lmportante . Ma question au ministre est la suivante : le depliant est-ii disponible dans la langue franc;:aise? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Monsieur le President , non et c'est une bonne suggestion . Mr. Gaudry: Monsieur le President, ma question supplementaire : le ministre peut -il nous dire qu 'il prevoit une distribution de depliants en franc;:ais dans les ecoles franc;:aises du Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: Encore , c'est une bonne suggestion . Mr. Gaudry: Monsieur le President , j'espere que c;:a ne prendra pas sept mois comme c;:a pris pour sortir celui en anglais . Le ministre peut-il nous reassurer que cette campagne de sensibilisatlon sur le SIDA dans 3831

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 nos ecoles et dans nos institutions de sante sur ce probleme medical et social se fera dans les deux langues? Mr. Orchard: Monsieur le President , c'est la fin de mon frarn;;ais. (Translation) Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Health. I had the opportunity to read the pamphlet produced by his department on AIDS . I would like to congratulate the Minister for producing a quality piece of work that contains frank, useful information on this important question.

It is absolutely imperative that we be able to ensure a wide distribution of this document. The Minister indicated that this pamphlet will be distributed throughout the school system and to health clinics and doctors' offices. The Minister is aware that in this province there are schools and post-secondary Institutions where the language of teaching and communication is French . There are also health establishments and doctors who serve a significant francophone population . My question to the Minister of Health is the following : is this pamphlet available In the French language? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, no, and this is a good suggestion . Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Speaker, with a supplementary question, can the Minister Je_ll us whether he is planning for distribution of this pamphlet in French in the francophone schools of Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: Once again, this is a good suggestion. Mr. Gaudry: I hope this Is not going to take seven months, as it did for the English version .

Can the Minister reassure us that this awareness campaign on AIDS in our schools and our health establishments concerning this important social and medical problem ) will be conducted in the two languages? Mr. Orchard: This is the end of my French. Mr. Speaker , 1. have to revert back, to my honourable friend . I can no longer communicate to him in his mother tongue .

The pamphlet is made available in the English language, and I have to tell my honourable friend that at the time of printing I did not give consideration to making the pamphlet available " en Francaise ." Certainly, that is a suggestion that makes good sense and I will investigate that on behalf of my honourabl~ friend and report back to him as soon as possible . Certainly any decis ion to offer an in-language French version would not take five minutes because the creation took that time, not the actual printing . Selkirk Mental Health Centre Admissions Policy Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildooan): Mr.

Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . During the Health Estimates, where we spent almost 35 hours , the Minister of Health stated that there was no crisis at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre , that the patients will not suffer and that he will rect ify the situation as soon as possible . This Minister has yet to understand that there is an issue which he has caused and that issue has become a crisis now. His failed, unilateral, dictatorial approach is a disaster for the Department of Mental Health in Selkirk, as well as in Brandon . Mr.

Speaker , it has come to my attention that a letter has been issued by one of the psychiatrists at Selkirk to a referring position . After speaking to Dr. Andrews, the Chief Executive Officer of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, the letter says all assessments and admissions have been suspended indefinitely . Will the Mil)ister of Health tell us that no assessments and admissions will be taking place at Selkirk, why not, and who issued the orders? Hon . Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker , no, I cannot.

I can only indicate to my honourable friend that my Deputy Minister was in Selkirk at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre yesterday . No such circumstance was brought to his attention yesterday during his visit there . I simply cannot provide my honourable friend with knowledge that he has at the present time . I can indicate however to my honourable friend that the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist has indicated all along, since the inception of the plan to provide psychiatric assistance to the Brandon Mental Centre from Selkirk , that quality patient care would not be jeopardized in Selkirk .

That situation exists today, as I indicated to my honourable friend spme month ago . *

(1400) Psychiatrists Shortage Staffing Plans Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, a first supplementary to the same Minister . This Tory Minister 's formula was to equalize services at Brandon , at Selkirk . It started with Selkirk having six psychiatrists and Brandon none and now, after six weeks, Brandon has none, Selkirk is going to have only two psychiatrists as of January 3.

My question is, will the Minister admit his failures, his mistakes, and his gross error of judgment , and _could he introduce a plan now to rectify the situation so that the patients at Selkirk and Brandon will no longer suffer under his ill-conceived plans? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): What absolute nonsense from my honourable friend, the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema), who purports to be knowledgeable in the health care field .

I am sick and tired of"the Liberal Party taking up the cudgel of two psychiatrists who -decided to take early retirement rather than assis.t u~ in Brandon, and I challenge them and I challenge them today, before you take up the cudgel for those two psychiatrists who took early retirement, tell the people of Manitoba the financial demands they were putting on the department as employees to go out to Brandon and the kind of financial 3832

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 support tha t you support as a Party on behal f of those two psychiatr ists rather than 2,300 patients in Bi:andon. Come clean to the peop le of Man itoba . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh ! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order ! please . .The Honourable Member for Kildona _n~ with a final supplementary question . Mr. Cheema: Our final responsibility is toward the •. patients and not to this Minister 's ill-conceived idea. He has failed time after time. My quest ion is, after what has happened at Selkirk, could he tell us what plans he has for back -up procedures during the holiday season?

What is the effect on the staff who are working at Selkirk as well as Brandon? Has he met with the staff? What kind of plans are there to ensure that services are provided, so that the patients and their famil ies could enjoy the holiday season? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, ohl Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please . The Honourable Minister of Health . Mr.

Orchard : I am pleased to see that the Liberal Party has finally come to their senses and are now concerned about patient care in Brandon , something they failed to do when we initially put this plan in place and came to this House ·advocating the position of the two psychiatrists we wished to help us in Brandon , but not telling Manitobans what the demands were , demands that were beyond the capacity of any Government , any reasonable Manitoban to accede to . As my honourable friend , the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr.

Doer) says, the Liberal Party 's solution was to back the Brink's truck up to the door and unload the money to solve the problem. I want to assure my honourable friends in the Liberal Party that despite their fondest hopes that this plan will fail, pat ient care will resume and will continue in Selkirk. Patient care will continue despite the diff iculties we are experiencing in _§randon . With the announcement I made last week on Wednesday on the reorganizat ion of mental health, the new direction we are taking, the new assistance for psychiatrists in the .

Province of Manitoba , I am hopeful that recruitment efforts will · resolve scime of the manpower difficulties we have had in the ~iscipline of psychiatry. Ruttan Mine - Leaf Rapids Discriminatory Action Mr. ,J~y Cowan (Churchill): My question is to the -Mi!1ister of Workplace- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please ; order , please . An.Honourable Member: You are losing control , Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: Not for long, not for long . The Honourable Member for Churchill . Mr.

Cowan: My quest ion is to the Minister of Workpl ace Safety and Health and the Minister respo nsible for the Environment (Mr. Connery) . It is my understand ing that all underground workers at the Ruttan Mine have been told by the company that they will not be called into work and have been sent home without pay. The company is reinforcing their decision to force wor kers to either go underground or to go home without pay by referencing the decis ion by the Workplace Safety and Health officer and using his improvement ord er as their just ification to send workers home . Mr.

Speaker , I bel ieve that is definitely discrim inatory action under the leg islation , which re ad s: " Discriminatory action means any act or omission by an employer which includes layoff , suspension or cha nge in working hours, and for that reason would contrav ene the Act ." What specific assurance can the Ministe r o f Workplace Safety and Health give that the worke rs at Ruttan Mine will not be deprived of their wages becau :;e of their collective decision to exercise their legal right to refuse to work under what they believe unsa fe and unhealthy conditions? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speake r, that is a very good question that our depar tment is loo kin g at very carefully . We have a serious concern at Rutt an. This fire is still burning and it will take some days t o put the fire out by smothering it with sand . We have sent one of our Environment people from Thomp son to Ruttan Mines this morning. He should be there now. · We are sending another Workplace Safety and Health person up to work with our present person up there to determine whether the decision initially was the right one.

I can assure the Minister that I will do as the Min ister of Workplace Safety everything legal in my power to support the workers at Ruttan Mine . Mr. Speaker, I symp athize with them in the fact that just before Christma s they would be losing work . We will do whatever we can within the law to support those workers . Mr.

Cowan: Given that the worker s were told last night that they would have to go home , and the company was using an improvement order by a Governm ent official to substantiate that decision to send them home - I have been told by a number of workers at the operation that they were told by a senior company official that , if they worked, they got paid and , if they did not work, they did not get paid. That is definitely discriminatory action under the legislation .

Is th e Minister prepared at this point in time to override the dec ision by the Workplace Safety and Health officer or, at the very least , clarify it to the extent where it is not used as an excuse by the company to force work ers either to go home without pay or to go into an environment wh ich they consider to be unsafe ? Mr. Connery: That is exactly what we have done. have sent a senior member up there to view the circumstances first-hand so we have a second opinion . Mr. Speaker , we will err on the side of safety and, if we err, we will err on the side of the workers . 3833

' Tuesday, December 6, 1988 Workers Compensation Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Churchill, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker , the Minister 's assurances, and I believe his sincere intentions, are not matched by the action which would give ·the assurance and the specific commitment which is required .

I would ask the Minister , given that a number of workers were exposed to potentially hazardous and most likely hazardous conditions as a result of that smoke inhalation, is he prepared to have the Chief Occupational Medical Officer of the province send a physician to Leaf Rapids to examine all of the workers who have suffered such exposure , to determine-well , someone from the Conservative bench says, " Oh, come on." I assure him that this is a very important issue and we are going to speak out in this House on behalf of protecting those workers in every way possible .

So, I do not appreciate that gratuitous remark from his seat. My question specifically to the Minister is, is he prepared to send the Chief Occupational Medical Officer or have someone on behalf of the Chief Occupational Medical Officer travel to Leaf Rapids to do base-line examinations to ensure that if there are future problems created by this exposure to those hazardous chemicals, they are documented? Secondly, is he prepared to send someone from the Workers Compensation Board to ensure that each of the workers who were subjected fill out a Workers Compensation claim?

That claim would follow with them for the rest of their working lives in case there were circumstances - Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order , please. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker , it is a standard practice with Hudson 's Bay Mining and Smelting when somebody is injured or has any smoke inhalation to automatically take them to the hospital. These employees have been inspected or looked at by a doctor to ensure that there are no health hazards . II there are any Workers Compensation claims required , they will be there .

Our department is working very closely with the company and with the union . In fact , I talked to our department rep this morning . In fact, I got him out of bed at 6:40 a.m. from my office . I also talked to the union rep to explain to the union rep that I was concerned , that we were sending more people ·up to view what was happening . We know that wind direction can change very quickly . As a farmer, I realize that , ·· and I am concerned that the fire is a hazard to the workers in that mine. •

(1410) Plant Breeders' Rights Government Support Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) . I am sure the Minister is aware of the fact that for about six months now there has been a case before the Supreme Court of Canada . That case was brought forward by Pioneer Hybrid Limited, a seed company in Canada, and it is a case where the company is appealing the decision of the Commissioner of Pa·tents where · fhe Commissioner denied a patent on a new variety of soybeans . Now this may seem like somewhat of a trivial issue , Mr.

Speaker , but I want to assure you that it is a very significant one as far as crop production in Canada is concerned . My quest ion is to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister tell us his stand and. thal of his Government when it comes to the issue of plant bree.ders ' rights? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agric;ulture): I would like to take the opportunity to -reaffirm to the Member that we strongly support any source of funds that increases the amount of plant breeding research that can be done in the country of Canada .

On that basis, we support plant breeders ' rights because the issue of being able to protect the farmer from loss of varieties is well looked after by the licensing program that is in existence across Canada . No bad varieties can get on the market through the licensing process that exists , so on that basis we support plant breeders' rights. Legislation Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Well, as the Minister is, I am sure , aware , plant breeders ' rights has been brought forward both by the· federal Liberal Government and more recently by the Conservative Government and both times it has died on the agenda paper.

My question is to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) . Will he contact his counterparts , the other provincial Ministers of Agriculture and together get in touch with the federal Minister, and implore upon him to bring forward that legislation again as quickly as possible? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Certainly, it will be my intention to bring the issue up the next time the Ministers of Agriculture meet and , should the occasion arise to meet the federal Minister soon after he is sworn in, I will definitely bring that issue up. Plant Patenting Policy Mr.

Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): A final supplementary. Two other issues that should be addressed at the same time are the questions of plant patenting and gene patenting , which I think in many cases would be regarded as being far more serious and more detrimental to agriculture . Can the Minister tell me whether his Government has developed any policy as it relate: ·to plant patenting and gene patenting?

Hon:'Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Certainly, I would want to have taken more time to have discussions within my department and with the industry at large before I would be in a position to answer that . specific question in an affirmative fashion. 3834

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 MIC Chairperson Resignation Hon. Bonnie Mitchelaon (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I just want to table a letter in the Legislature today that I indicated I would table yesterday . from one Mr. Yantay Tsai , a member of the ,-ask Force on Multiculturalism, who resigned . Might f add just for clarification, resigned and sent his letter of resignation . after the task force was complete, and that was the reason his name was on the task force report . MPIC General Insurance Division Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister responsible for MPIC .

In 1987, MPIC embarked on a strategy to improve the financial performance of its General Insurance Division and to enhance the quality of its service . The latest information available indicates a-dramatic turnaround of $9.5 million with favourable results in ail of the three business units of the division. However, on November 1, the Public Utilities Committee passed a resolution requesting the Government to study available options and of course the report of the committee was accepted by this House .

Is the Minister now in a position to tell the House that MPIC will continue in the general insurance lines and will not be sold, watered down or terminated in the foreseeable future? Hon. Glen Cummings ("11iniater responsible for The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): As I said previously in the House, the motion that was passed at committee encouraging us to study all of the options and ramifications regarding the future of this part of the Corporation Is exactly what we have been doing, and the Member is not being totally forthright with the people of the province .

Two out of the three sections of the general arm of the MPIC are still losing money . Mr .. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Brandon East, with a supplementary question . Mr. Leonard Evans: When the Minister says I am not being forthright, ·I am simply quoting from the press statemen ·t issue that all three business units showed a· turnaround in this three quarters . It is written in this financial statement. a (Interjection)- That is what I said. There· is a turnaround in all three units. · Will the Minister request MPIC to tell its agents that it is business as usual in the general insurance lines?

Because of the uncertainty caused by statements made by the Premier (Mr. Filmon), the general insurance business fs being eroded, I am advised , since some agents are ilot confident about the future of MPIC and 'ar·e reluctant to ·sell MPIC policies . Will the Minister ensure ·Ihat the General Insurance Division does not wither away through attrition in the meantime? Mr. Cummings: Again, within a few days of assuming responsibility as Minister, we issued a directive through the board and through the then acting president to the corporation and to the agents that it would be business as usual. Mr.

Leonar'd Evans: With a final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, will the Minister ensure . that in their review of the General Insurance Division ttiat due consideratio n will be given to the· penefits accruing to all Man itoba ns by the very presence of MPIC in the industry and its positive effect in s_tabilizing premiums in this provinc e? Mr. Cummings: We have indicated consistently that any future action regarding the general arm of the Public Insurance Corporation would take into considerat ion all of the effects of future actions that might be entailed. Depo-Provera Unauthorized Use Mrs.

Sharon Carstaira (Leader of the Opposition) : My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard ). It is disturbing to learn that the drug Depo-Provera Is being prescribed as a contraceptive by doctors in this province, in spite of federal regulations banning its use for this particular purpose . As the Minister , I am sure. knows, the drug has been linked to cancer, heart disease and fetal abnormalities.

My question , therefore , to the Minister is, can the Minister explain to the peop le of Manitoba how physicians in this province can prescribe a drug which has not been approved by the feder al Government for use as a contraceptive? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): The issue of Depo-Provera has recently come to light, as my honourable friend well knows, in terms of the recent media coverage on it. It is, as my honourable friend indicates , not a prescribable medication for use for birth control.

However , it is allowed to be prescribed for the treatment of certain types of cancer and a certain , gynecological disorder. It is only under those two narrow uses that prescription is available . The College of Physicians and Surgeons has the responsibility to assure that physicians are not exceeding those very narrow guidelines. I hav e attempted to find out whether there have been any complaints upon which the college would investigate . I am informed , as of to date, there have been no complaints . Mr.

Speaker, I simply indicate to my l honourable friend that I would encourage the Colleg e of Physicians and Surgeons that should any complaint s come forward about the prescription of this medication for birth control that they very quickly investigate and curtail its use for that purpose . Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired . NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): May I have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Ellice have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Ms.

Gray: The Order of Canada is designed to honour Canadian citizens for outstanding achievement and service to humanity. This prestigious award distinguishes Canadians for exemplary service in a 3835

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 variety of fields of endeavour . It gives me great pleasure today to dse in this House and to pay tribute to one such Manitoban , Dr. Elizabeth Feniak , who has distinguished herself throughout this country, within her profession and within her community . Dr. Feniak was appointed a member of the Order in a ceremony in Ottawa this year, November 8, 1988. •

(1420) A native of Shoal Lake, Manitoba , Elizabeth Feniak received her undergraduate degree in Home Economics from the University of Manitoba and her doctoral degree in Foods and Nutrition from the University of Minnesota . Her professional career was spent at the University of Manitoba where she taught in the Faculty of Home Economics for 35 years, retiring in 1985 from the faculty but not from active community involvement. Her community work includes being active on boards of the Provincial Council of Women, the Action Committee on the Status of Women and the National Council of Women. Dr.

Feniak has been a long-time member of the University Women's Club of Winnipeg where she served as president from 1986 to 1988, and she is a past president of the Manitoba Branch of Delta Kappa Gamma Society International, an honours society for women educators . Among her professional activities and memberships have been the Manitoba Home Economics Association, Winnipeg Branch , of which she was made an honorary life member in 1973. She currently serves on the provincial committee to register the profession, as well as the interim executive of the recently formed provincial association .

A life member of the Canadian Home Economics Association , she served serval terms on the board of directors . In 1980, Dr. Feniak was a founding member of the Canadian Home Economics Association Foundation and she currently chairs its board of trustees. As well, active in the Canadian Diabetic Association , she served several terms on the board of directors and was named Honorary President in 1980 and 1981. She has represented the Canadian Home Economics Association at international levels and is also a member of the International Federation for Home Economics . Dr.

Feniak has received many awards, including the Queen Elizabeth Jubilee Medal in 1977, the CHEA Honour Award in 1976, and was also named Woman of the Year in the professional category by the Winnipeg YWCA in 1982. To recogn ize her contributions following her retirement from the University of Manitoba, local home economics associations init iated an undergraduate scholarship in her name at the Faculty of Human Ecology. I have had the pleasure, Mr. Speaker , of knowing Dr. Feniak personally and professionally, and let me say that her leadership and her inspiration to fellow home economists has not gone unnoticed- .

An author , William Howells, who talks about life as a ·field of endeavour which seeks to talk: about a better quality of life for families . Toward this end , Dr. Feniak has certainly excelled . Let me quote Howells' words, as they express far better than I the essence of giving of oneself for the betterment of humanity, a quality which Dr. Elizabeth Feniak surely does possess . · "I have come to see life, not as a chase of forever impossible personal happiness , but as a field for endeavour toward the happiness of the whole human family. There is no other success .

I know indeed of nothing more subtly satisfying · and cheering than a knowledge of the real goocl will and appreciation of others . Such happiness does not come with money ; nor does it flow from a fine physical state. It cannot be .bought . But it is the keenest joy, after all, and the toiler 's truest and best reward ." I am sure that all Honourable Members of this House will join with me in wishin ·g ~and extending congratulations and best wishes to Dr. Feniak .. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of.- .Agriculture): Mr. Speaker , may I have leave for a non-political statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister of Agriculture have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Findlay: Thank you. I would certainly like to second the comments of the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) who was a home economist who has had direct contact with Dr. Feniak , and I, also a member of Shoal Lake , would dearly like to say a few words today to congratulate Dr. Feniak for her professional and community achievements over her lifetime .

I think she reflects very much what I believe in terms of the ability of rural people to be leaders in their professions and leaders in the communities that they live in throughout their lifetime . It is indeed a pleasure to have been part of the University of Manitoba when she was there and know that she has done so much for her profession and for other citizens of Manitoba, Canada , and internationally . She received many awards which she has dearly earned through her lifetime . I congratulate her and wish her well in the years to come. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Interlake have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Mr. Speaker , along with both Members in the House this afternoon and on behalf of our Party, I would like to associate our group with the sentiments expressed. Having known Dr. Feniak for the last number of years . and having had a daughter graduating from Human Ecology in the University of Manitoba, I know the kind of work and the dedication that it takes to make this .. · professiorf the kind of profession it is.

It is far more than what is generally accepted in layman 's terms as baking and cooking and sewing . It is only through the hard work and dedication of people such as Dr. Feniak and others at the university level that we, as Manitobans, can take pride to have people like this involved in our 3836

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 society . I wish Dr. Feniak very much good health !J.nd best wishes in the year s ahead. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : I wonde r if I might have leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister have leave to make a non-political sta tement? (Agreed) Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, Jewish people throughout the world are now in the midst of celebrating their annual Hanukkah Festival. Hanukkah , or the Festival of Lights , marks a watershed victory in the cause of religious freedom .

I know I speak for all Members of the Legislature in extending our warm greetings to Jewish people everywhere . The battle for freedom is a continuing battle still being waged in many areas of the world, and the courage of the Maccabees of more than 21 centuries ago which Hanukkah commemorates is a source of inspiration to freed om-lov ing people of every generation and every time . Citizens of good will everywhere can find common ground and identify with the ideals expressed in the Hanukkah entreaty which says, " Grant unto all men and nations the blessings of liberty, justice and peace.

Let injustice and oppress ion everywhere cease and hatred , cruelty and wrong pass away." As an additional candle is kindled on each of t he eight days of the festival, may the crescendo of ligh t symbolize the added strength which comes to those who adhere to these ideas , and may this Hanukkah herald a brighter future for humanity and a new era of peace in the Middle East and around the world . Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Could I have leave as well? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Leader of the Oppo!!ition have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mrs.

Carstairs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too , would like to join with the .Eirst Minister (Mr. Filmon) in paying homage to the members of our Jewish community who ~re. of course , celebrating the Festival of Hanukkah , or the Festival of Lights . As the menorah is lit and the children g'at_her -i:ound and sometimes even get a little bit of gelt , a little bit of gold , and sometimes gifts , what they have is a celebration of the light that once again dispels the darkness .

It is interesting to note that through a variety of religious observances, often "light " is associated with the festival. _ The Hindu · people , for example , celebrate .a .festiva l° of lights called Diwali. There are certainly many of us wHo belong to the Christian faith who , of course, use candles within our Christian services as an example yet once again to brighten the darkness .

May the darkness of the world tha t sometimes unfortunately pervades us be lit once again by the people of the Jewish faith , and may we light it ourselves again through this season of Advent so that we can indeed bring peace to the whole world. .,, Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Membe r fo r Interlake have leave to make a non-political stateme nt ? (Agreed) Mr. Uruski: I would like , on behalf of our group , to associate ourselves with the sentiments and th e statements of our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Lead er of the Opposition (Mrs .

Carstairs) in wishing our friends of the Jewish faith the very best and peacef ul of celebrations and in coinciding with all relig ious celebrations of Advent and coming and peace. We share those sentiments and we wish them the very bes t and hope that , as mank ind, we can in fact break bread together and work towards having a world of pea ce. •

(1430) ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader) : · Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honourabl e Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that the locatio n and sequence for consideration of departmen ta l Estimates as set out in Sessional Paper No. 45 be adjusted by transferring consideration of the Estima tes of the follow ing department s from the committee room to the Assembly Chamber to be examined in this ord er: Employment Services and Economic Security. Northe rn Affairs, Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures , following completion of Executive Counc il Estimate s.

Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to bring forward this motion without any notice? (Agreed) Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition) : I just would like to see that motion before - my only question really, and I will ask the question-is Executiv e Council now being moved to the bottom? Mr. Mccrae : Perhaps I might explain the motion by means of debate on the motion , if that would ... Mr. Speaker : The Honourable Governmen t Hous e Leader , on House Business. Mr. McCrae: The agreement arrived at betw een the Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) , on behalf of his House Leader (Mr.

Alcock), and the House Leader of the Second Opposition Party (Mr. Cowan ) was that the order of Estimates should be as follows : in the comm ittee room , Natural Resources , Energy and Mine s and Seniors Directorat e; and that the orde r i n the Chamber, following Executive Council. which we are on now , would be Employment Servic es and Economic Security , Northern Affairs . Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures . I take it that expla ins it for ihe Honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) . MOTION presented and carried . Mr. Mccrae : I move , seconded by the Honourable Minis ter of Finance (Mr.

Manness) , that Mr. Speaker 3837

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majes ty w ith the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources and the Department of Energy and Mines ; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for Executive Council and the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security .

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-NATURAL RESOURCES Mr. Chairman , Harold Gilleahammer: I call this committee meeting to order to consider the Estimates of the Departmen t of Natural Resources . When last we met, we were on Item No . 3. Engineering and flood forecasting . (

a) Administration :

(1) Salaries pass ; 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 4.(

b) Water Licensing and Approvals :

(1) Salar ies - pass ; 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass. 4.(

c) Water Management:

(1) Salaries - the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Can the Minister make any comment as to whether he sees this as an· area of new or increased act ivity , given the recent announcement of the Water ·and Soil Conservation Strategy? Mr. Penner : I do not see any new activity being generated out of this area for this fiscal year. There will , however, I expect be substantial ac;tiviti~s generated in this area in the ensuing years underthe new initiative. Mr. Chairman: 4.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass . f Construction. 4.(c)

(3) Waterway Maintenanee _: the Member for Wolseley . ' 3.(

a) Adm inistra t ion :

(2) Other Expenditures $218, 100 - the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Paa): I just had one short question before we get off the Engineer ing and Construction . I am wondering if the Min ister can tell me the status of the Clearwater Lake Lagoon. Hon, Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): There is, Mr. Chairman , a revised proposal being put together. As the Member knows , the previous proposal to deal with the lagoon at Clearwater Lake had been turned thumbs down. There is a new proposal being put; it will be going out to the public .

There are some concerns in the Moose Lake area abou t the proposal and, of course , we will be waiting to hear from residents in the Moose Lake area about that , about the new proposal. *

(1440) Mr. Chairman: 3.(a)(2) - pass ; 3.(a)

(3) Less : Recoverable from Other Appropr iations - pass ; 3.(

b) Technical Services :

(1) Salaries - pass ; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass ; 3.(b)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - pass; 3.(

c) Regional Engineering Services: ( 1) Salaries-pass ; 3.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 3.(c)

(3) Less: Recove rable from Other Appropriations - pass. Resolution No. 120: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $7,01-8,500 for Natural Resources , Engineering and Construction , for the fisca l year ending the 31st day of March , 1989: pass. 4. Water Resources : Provides fo r short- and long term planning for the use, regulation , development and managemen t of water resources in .or available to the province . Includes ac t ivities associated with the issuance of Water Power and Water Rights licences , designated area permits , subdivision approvals and Mr.

Taylor: Any significance in the increase there? Is there an extra project that is involved? · Mr. Penner: Pardon me? I am sorry . Mr. Taylor: There is a number of hund reds of thousands of dolla rs of increase in here . I just wondered if the Minister could explain what is going on in that increased activity . Mr. Penner: The increases that you see there are due mainly to the soil drifting that we incurred this spring and the clean-out of provincial drainages that we had to do. Mr. Chairman: 4.(c)

(3) Waterway Maintenance-pass ; 4.(

d) Hydrotechnical Services :

(1) Salaries-pass; 4.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass ; 4.(

e) Regiona l Management :

(1) Salaries - pass. 4.(e)

(2) Ot her Expenditures-the Member for Wolseley . Mr. Taylor: I wanted to ask somewhere in this Water Resources area is that the provincial drainage system creates some fairly large ditches of which there are structures over them for their local roads . Maintenance of th·ose structures has become a fairly significant issue in certain parts of the province. Does the Minister have a comment he would like to pass on of what he sees his administration doing to correct the serious deterioration of those ditch crossings? Mr. Penner: The Honourable Member is certainly correct.

We do have a large network of provincial drainage ditches and other drainage ditches connecting ,into our pr-6vincial drainage system . The maintenance of that system including road crossings and bridges , wh ich would include bridges , culverts and other things , are certainly very costly to maintain including making sure that the drainage ditches in fact stay in a state of .being able to take the large amoun ts of water that 3838

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 we incur in times of spring runoff especially and large rainstorms . It has been somewhat of a difficulty for the department in times of budgetary restraints to keep maintenance budgets in a state that we are able ro care for the structures that have been built. I guess one thing Government , as )Veit as private Industry, runs into periodically is that in good times we find ourselves in a situation where we are able to build structures without probably paying enough attention to the ongoing maintenance that we have to Incur down the road .

I guess that is where we find ourselves now and the previous administration found themselves, I guess, in a similar situation. When budgetary cuts were required, Natural Resources, I guess , in a way has always been singled out as an area that we can cut without too much pain and without too much public resistance to decreasing budgets . *

(1450) I think it is time that the public recognized that ii we are going to maintain the structures that are required to maintain (1) a good road system in this province , and (2) a good drainage system that will ensure the productivity of the lands that we need for sustaining agricultural industries and also for enjoyment such as parks and other areas, that we are going to have to pay some budgetary attention to natural resources in the Natural Resources Department . I think you will see that sort of indication coming forward from this department during the next year's budgetary process . Mr. Chairman: 4.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 4.

(1) Canada-Manitoba Flood Damage Reduction Agreement :

(1) Salaries-pass . 4.(IX2) Other Expenditures $88,600-the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: I just have one question in this area . The present Minister of Highways (Mr. Albert Driedger) said that all that is needed to get some federal funding -in here is a little more cooperative approach . I am wondering if the Minister had any success in getting federal funding towards the rebuilding of some dikes in the Red RiVl:l[._ Valley. Mr,. Penner: As you are probably aware , the agreement that we had with the federal Government as far as diking · the Red River Valley, as well as _ other areas , expires this year.

We are in discussions currently to try and put a new agreement into place and/or extend the current agreement that was in place . As far as diking is concerned , ·hopefully, there will be an arrangement agreed upon fairly soon that will allow us to indicate to Manitobans that we will continue the program that was _in place . Mr. ·Chairman: 4.(1)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass . Resolution No. 121: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,689,100 for Natural Resources , Water Resources, for the fiscal year e~ding the 31st day of March , 1989 - pass . 5. Parks : Provides for the establishment, planning, development and management of a resource-based provin c'ial park system for the healthful enjoyment and cultural , educational and social benefit of the people of Manitoba . (

a) Administration :

(1) Salaries-the Member for Th.e Pas. Mr. Harapiak ;_ I had asked the question earlier on a planner for nqrthern Manitoba . Could the Minister tell us at this time who is doing the planning and whe re is that person located in for the North? Mr. Penner: The question that the Honourable Memb er placed with me before as far as parks managers are concerned and who is the manager for the North , I want to indicate to the Member that we have a new Parks Director who took office about a month before I came into office under the previous Minister, Mr. Plohman's tenure .

He has , I guess, restructured somewhat the whole Parks operation. There will now be regional managers in Parks , and the regional manager for The Pas area is Rod MacCharles . Mr. Harapiak: Would Mr. MacCharles be in charge of planning as well? Mr. Penner: He would be involved in the normal planning process for his region . In other words , when there are projects to come on stream that he would want to see and recommend, he would go through the normal process in a departmental process and bring his concerns to the department.

It would be included in the overall Parks plan, and he would make sure that the facilities required in his area would be brought to the attention of the Provincial Parks Planner . Mr. Harapiak: There was some development that had been put on hold in the Hugo Bay area . Has there been any consideration given to reopen that area that had been developed previously by the Parks Branch? Mr. Penner: No. Mr. Chairman: 5.(a)(1} Salar ies-pass; 5.(a)(2} Other Expenditures-pass; 5.(b} Park Planning :

(1) Salaries pass ; 5.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass ; 5.(

c) Program Management : ( 1) Salaries - pass; 5.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass . 5.(

d) Park Operations and Maintenance: ( 1) Salaries - the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: The $800,000 salary increase, is it the same explanation as the other salary increases I asked yesterday? Mr. Penner: I guess the answer for the adjustment there is similar to the answers I provided yesterday , and that is the agreement required us to increase substantially the salaries of some of the employees . Also , some of the normal adjustments in salaries due to yearly increases are part of that increase . Mr. Taylor: They are not staff. increases? Mr. Penner: No, there are no stall increases there . Mr.

Chairman: The Hansard stall are still having some difficulty picking you up on the mike. 3839 1

J Tuesday, December 6, 1988 Mr. Taylor: . . . so soft-spoken. A certain Minister did not think that last night. Mr. Chairman: 5.(d)

(1) Salaries - pass . 5.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures $2,820,600-the Member for Wolseley . Mr. Taylor: The Minister moments ago mentioned there have been problems in previous years where there have been Budget cuts, and this is one of the departments that got those sorts of cuts, maybe moreso than others , and also talked about maintenance levels on, for example, the ditches and the structures for the drainage system .

One also can look at the maintenance levels in Parks and I think , in all fairness , raise some very serious quest ions , whether it is in a case of regular maintenance or whether we had the unfortunate incident where we had the windstorm coming across Lake Winnipeg and doing rather severe damage in the Grand Beach area, in the fact that the beach damage took a heck of a long time to be cleaned up.

There were a lot of dissatisfied people in the sense that notwithstanding there may have been limitations on that budget , there seemed to be a tardiness in the transfer of operating funds from other accounts to take care of that. Has the Minister got a comment to make about what he sees for improvements in park maintenance through different approaches and managerial techniques or logistical improvements? Mr.

Penner: First of all, in response to the Honourable Member , the clean-up at the beaches was delayed not because of budgetary restraints , but was delayed in large part to the safety of the area's clientele there . Remember it was in the middle of the tourist season and our Parks people, our staff decided that they would attempt to clean up the debris , at least the major portion of the debris that was prevalent on the beaches and the beach areas .

It became very evident almost Immediately that when you do those kinds of things with large numbers of children and even adults around that it becomes somewhat of a curiosity piece and, therefore , attracted too many people. For safety 's sake , we stopped the clean-up operation and convened it again later on in the year in the fall. It was simply because we were concerned about the safety of children and adults in that whole beach area that we stopped the clean-up and convened it later on.

The second part of your question, as to what I see in the future as far as managerial and maintenance of our parks ' facilities are concerned , I believe that if we restructure, as our current director is doing, some of the activities can be changed . There might have to be also some enhanced efforts to maintain and r:naybe even rebuild some of the structures that are depleted so badly that they are almost beyond repair in some areas . *

(1500) There are a number of options , I suppose , that we will be considering over the winter months , and one of the directions I ha_ve given to the Parks department is that I want them to consult very closely with those people who live in the parks and do business in the parks, in other words, the cottage .lot owners' associations in the various parks that we have, as well as the various business associations that we have in the various parks . By those kinds of consultations , 1 think we will get a fairly clear understanding as to what the needs of the people are who use our parks in more ways than one .

Once we have garnered that from the general public and the public that uses our parks , we will be able to assess what needs to be done in the parks and then we will budget in the future for that . Mr. Chairman: 5.(d)(2)-pass ; 5.(e)' Visitor Services:

(1) Salaries-pass ; 5.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass . Item 5.(

f) Grant Assistance - the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: What was the rationale for this major cut in the grant? Mr. Penner: The cut in grant , there was some question as to-maybe I should go back just a wee bit fpr your information . You might not know , and some might not know, that we have in the province three organizations that work in Parks as cooperating organizations . There was a fourth one formed just a little while ago .

These are people who would like to spend some of their time on a voluntary basis assisting Parks people , and making sure that the enjoyment of those who visit our parks are more enjoyable . Those associations had been indicated that they would receive start-up grants over a five-year period , starting with $5 ,000, increasing to $15 ,000 and decreasing to $5,000 in the last year, helping them get started . They will become viable commercial operations , operating such things as maybe book stores and souvenir shops and all those kinds of things that go along with visiting a park .

There was some question during the budgetary process this year and, because of that, the amounts that were designated toward the cooperating associations were deleted and later on were reinstated and came out of the appropriations, channelled appropriations . Mr. Chairman: Item 5.(

f) Grant Assistance - pass . Resolution No. 122: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $14,597,000 for Natural Resources , Parks, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989-pass. 6. Lands : Provides for administration of all Crown Lands and the maintenance of a Crown Lands Registry System .' (

a) Administration :

(1) Salaries-the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: I have a question on the availability of lots in northern Manitoba . There have been a lot of calls from people in the areas of Flin Flon, Snow Lake, and at the Athapapuskow Lake in Flin Flon , the Rocky Lake area of The Pas, and also in the Pink Lake regions of Thompson . Are there any plans for bringing more cot1age lot sit~s onto location because there is a real shortage oi lots in northern Manitoba? Are there any plans to develop some lots? Mr. Penner: As you indicate, it is true there is a demand for cottage lot and cottage lot development in that 3840

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 area . Outside of the parks, we would prefer to see_a private initiative being taken in the development of those kinds of cottage lot developments. Inside the parks, there are some cottage lots available . If, however , there is a further requirement to develop lots in the areas, we will take a look at it. .. Mr. Harapiak: How will these lots be brought on to will they be contracting out projects or how will they • b!l brought onstream? Mr.

Penner: Again, we have a number of people out in some of the areas who are interested in some private initiative towards development of these lots and, once we allow development to take place or once development does take place, they would be sold as under the normal process . If it is Crown land that is required for the development of some of these areas , certainly we can dispose of Crown land to private operators for development of those areas . Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I am pleased to hear the Minister's comments with respect to recreational lots.

I am wondering if the Minister could prov ide some information on two proposals that have come from the Flin Flon region, one that would propose some development within , I believe, the recreation park area , one which would be outside of it on Crown land. Could the Minister indicate where either of those proposals are, whether there has been any preliminary review of the proposals by -the qepartment and, if so, what decisions have been arrived at? Mr:. Penner: There is an interest in that area for cottage lot development .

There has been an application extended to the department at Athapap and that is being considered at this time . What would happen once the decision had been made to allow cottage lot development in that area would be that we would go through the normal tendering process . The other area tha! some interest has been shown is Rocky Lake, although no formal application for development has been received from that area . Mr.

Storie: Has the..department , as has been requested by at least -the Greenstone Tourism Committee, identified a lake with limited other resource use for that committee that might be suitable in terms of recreational cotta.ge lot .development? Mr. Penner: Oh ; I think both Athapap and Rocky Lakes are acceptable lakes for development of the nature that you refer to ; unless there is something else that you migh_t want to ask in that regard. , •.

(1510) Mr. St~rie: One of the proposals that the Minister received from the Greenstone Tourism Committee was the proposal to look at smaller lakes in the vicinity that would be allocated to the committee for cottage lots development . It would be done privately or through the norr-profit corporation , through a development corporation perhaps , of the Greenstone Business Development Centre. I am wondering if the Minister is .,, sympathetic to that kind of development and whethe r any movement has taken place withi11 the departmen t to allocate such a lake. Mr.

Penner: Are you indicating that there was actuall y an application sent to the department for t he development of a specific lake or specific lakes, or was there a request for the department to identify som e lakes? Mr. Storie: My recollection is that the committee sent a letter identifying two or three possible lakes. Mr. Penner: Can you name them? Mr. Storie: Niso, Twin Lakes-I cannot remember the third off the top of my head , but I think they were asking the department to review the potential for the kind of development they had in mind for thos e partic4lar areas.

My final question-I appreciate th at, I hope the department is sympathetic-I am wondering whether the Minister would be interested in making or having a proposal call for that region requesting local groups , be they local entrepreneurs or development corporations or non-profit groups , for making a proposal. Mr. Penner: Well, certainly, we are very interested , whether they be community groups or private indiv iduals or other groups that would come with proposals for development of specific areas .

Once we have thos e kinds of proposals brought forward , then our department can certainly take a look at whether the development of that specific area should be considered . Mr. Storie: To speed the process , would the Minister be willing to commit some staff time to identifying , in advance of a proposal , a suitable recreational lake, because it would be time consuming and perhaps a waste of effort for groups to make proposals on lakes in which there is significant commercial fishing value already existing, interest in terms of the fishing resourc e by lodge owners, etc .?

Is it possible for the department to sit down with the committee or individuals and identify a lake and then, subsequent to having one identified in the region , say, let us have a proposal call and develop the area? Mr. Penner: If the Honourable Member is indicating to me that we as a department should go out there and identify to various communities certain lakes that they could use or that we would be willing to take proposals on, the answer at this time would be no.

I would suggest to the Honourable Member that I think it is much more expeditious for certain interest groups or individuals to come forward with a specific proposal or a proposal for development on a given lake , and ·we will then decide whether that lake should be ·developed . That would , in my view, be a lot more beneficial to everybody and th~ process could be expedited . Mr. Storie: A final, final , final question . I have seen a letter that the Minister sent to a group in Flin Flon that , to my reading and the reading of the individual who 3841 ,

, Tuesday, December 6, 1988 received it, categorically rejected the addition of cottage lots in the Flin Flon area because of concerns over the lack of sewage disposal facilities . I am wondering whether a requirement of any proposal would be a satisfactory resolution of that problem, or am I mistaken that that was the Minister 's intention in that letter? Mr. Penner : I think, Mr. Chairman , that the Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) would concur that any development or any submission for development, proposal for development should be-the No. 1 and first requirement should be to make sure that the environment is properly protected . As I have indicated on numerous occasions in the House, any development proposal that we in Natural Resources or in Water Resources or in the development of other areas will entertain will be required to have that kind of an environmental assessment .

It would appear to me that , if I remember correctly, the correspondence that you refer to that took place would appear to me that my answer was simply based on that assumption that the environment and the protection of the environment should be considered, first of all, and that the further development of that area that you referred to would have to make sure that the sewage disposal and those sorts of things are taken care of in a proper manner and that the quality of the waters in the lakes not be put in a detrimental position because of further development there . Mr. Storie: You presume too much .

I have no further questions. Mr. Chairman: · 6.(a)

(1) Salaries-pass ; 6.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 6.(

b) Crown Lands Administration :

(1) Salaries - pass;

(2) Other Expenditures - pass ; 6.(

c) Regional Management:

(1) Salaries - pass;

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 6.(

d) Crown Lands Registry:

(1) Salaries - pass;

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 6.(

e) Northern Development Agreement - Provincial - Wild Rice:

(1) Salaries - pass . 6.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: It is only because of the shortage of time that we are not asking many questions in the whole area of wild rice production , but I noticed there is an increase in staff for this area. I think it is an extremely important area that is growing and we certainly support any initiative in that area. Mr. Chairman: Order, please . I would ask Members at the table having a private conversation if they would move to the back . Mr. Penner: I think we need to correct th~ comments that were made . There have been no staff increases in the wild rice area . The number that the Honourable Member is looking at is due to salary adjustments . *

(1520) Mr. Chairman: 6.(e)

(2) Other Ex_penditures- pass . Resolution No. 123: Resolved that there be granted · to Her Majest y a -sum not exceeding $1,946,600 for Natural Resources, Lands, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: At this time , I would like to bring ·up the issue of deterioration at human hands of Beaconia Beach and other similar properties that come under the purview of the Lands ·administration of Natural Resources . This has been raised in the House previously by myself and I have had private conversations with the Minister .

Has the Minister anything to put on record about the specific incident and about the issue 0 in general about people going for free-for-alls and encouraging and fostering the deterioration of provincial lands and impacting negatively provincial wildlife? Mr.

Penner : I guess I could spend a couple of hours indicating what we have experienced on Beaconia Beach and what we have listened to-and .especially' the conversations that have taken place between various people , including the Honourable Member . · It would appear to me that seme of the things that have been publicized are somewhat erroneous, and I would suggest that some of the people who have made use of the beach area either by vehicle or otherwise have done so because there was limited access to other vehicles other than four-wheel-drive vehicles and it became a very much liked area for those who had interest in running their four-wheelers down the beach and those kinds of things .

An interesting thing happened though . When we indicated to groups that there was probably littering going on on the beach , that very group went back to the beach and cleaned up. An Honourable Member: Their own mess . Mr. Penner: I am not so sure whether it was just their mess or even other people. We human beings all seem to have a problem when we walk along somewhere . It is easier to drop things than it is to pack things out of certain areas. I think we are all guilty of that at times , and it is somewhat of a concern to me that we point fingers in a general direction when the occasion suits.

I think there has been at times too much emphasis put on one or two individuals ' concerns in those areas . I think beaches in this province are generally there for the enjoyment of all citizens in this province . That is not to say necessarily that they must all be enjoyed in the same manner. For that reason, I think there has been some real effort put by local Government districts arid municipalities to ensure that access to that beach will be better than it was before, thereby giving authorities a better access to the area and they will be better able to enforce the law in those areas .

I think that will, in general , in the long term, benefit the area for all concerned . I think the municipality needs to be congratulated for the initiative that they have taken to make sure that the concpr'ns that have been voiced in the Legislature, as weir as some other places, are also a concern to them . It is also a concern to myself and my staff that these kinds of things do go on, and anything that we can do that will stop the littering on our beaches and !he degradation of the ecosystem in those areas we 3842

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 will attempt to do. However, it is certainly not possible for our staff to ensure that there are no infractions in any areas of this province at any time. So I guess we will always be faced with these kinds of difficult areas_, whether they are at Beaconia or whether they are transferred to some other place. '· I just want to indicate to the Honou'fable Member that this has taken probably more of my time and my staff's time than probably any other single issue that we have dealt with during the summer months .

Should we spend that much time on all other issues, we would simply have to increase our staff tremendously to just look after those kinds of concerns that have been addressed to my office . Mr. Taylor: I would like to say that I am pleased to hear the Minister's comments that the department has now taken an interest In this issue and that he has offered leadership on the matter . I would pass a note back to him though to bear in mind that this beach had been a family bea_ch for both locals and people from outside the area before basically they were run off by the four-wheel-drive vehicles .

The comments he made about looking out for the beach in the future, I think is good , and I think also there was something to be learned in this exercise that, hopefully, can be applied to other similar but not identical circumstances in that it will not be necessary to reinvent the wheel in every case when these things do come up from time to time . Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Resolution 123: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,946,600 for Natural Resources, Lands , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989-pass. 7.

Forestry: Provides for programs to foster full utilization and management of forestry resources and provides information regarding all forestry resources . Provides for the protection of forest lands ; develops , i,:nplements and monitors operating policy relative to the development and utilization of forest resources and provides for the administration of forest management and renewal agreements . (

a) Administration :

(1) Salaries-the _Member for The Pas. Mr.:Harapiak: I guess this is an area that I would like to take a couple of hours in, but I recognize that we ar~ civer our Ume already. I would just ask a couple of questions . Are there any cutbacks in the nursery production in ·the Clearwater Lake Nursery? Mr. Penner: N·o, there are not. · Mr. Harapiak: Have the negotiations been completed _ on extending the cutting area for the Repap and the W~y~rhaeuser? They were trying to extend their area .

Have the negotiations been completed into extending into the Swan River area , which would have prevented the oriented strand board from being built in Swan River? · · Mr. Penner: As the Honourable Member knows , neither Repap nor Weyerhaeuser operates in this province, nor am I aware of any operations that have been starte d by them . We have not granted any cutting areas or rights to either one of those companies at this time . Mr. Harapiak: Have the negotiations been completed ? Mr. Penner: Negotiations on what? Mr. Harapiak: For the extension of the cutting area ? Mr.

Penner: No, there is no change in cutting areas at all. Mr. Chairman: 7.(a)(1)-pass ; 7.(a)

(2) Othe r Expenditures-pass. 7.(aX3) Grant Assistance-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: I would like to ask you a question at this time . · I understand that the grant that the City of Winnipeg gets for Dutch elm disease has somewhat of a purview in this department , although I do not know if the money actually comes from Natural Resources . The question I wish to raise with the Minister is the fact that for, I believe it is eight years now, that gran t that the City of Winnipeg received to help in the maintenance of elm trees, which are the main boulevar d trees of this city, has been fixed .

It has never been increased, even though there have been repeated requests through official delegation from thi s administration and the previous administration . The request that I put to the Minister is that ther e should be some sort of an increase, because what is happening is that over time the buying power of that contribution for the joint program is deteriorating .

The city has increased significantly in a number of ways its contribution to the point now that it is very much more the larger contributory, I think on a two-for-one ratio , and the fact that the grant to the City of Winnipeg is approximately 62 percent of that of the grants to oth er towns and villages and cities in the province . Mr. Penner: The grant to the City of Winnipeg is the same as to other municipalities .

I guess we could, as a province , consider an increase to the Dutch Elm Disease Program to the City of Winnipeg . · It is, however , I suppose also the responsibility of a Government to make sure that taxpayers can actually afford to pay the amounts required to put in plac e programs such as either the OED Program or many other programs, such as the health programs that we want , the social programs that we require , and in many other areas .

I think a Government must prio rize the importance of whatever programs are required and then assess how much the general public will in fact be willing to contribute to the maintenance of those kind s of programs . I guess that is where we find ourselves in here. *

(1530) When we look at the DED Program and the City of Winnipeg and the maintenance of the boulevard trees in the City of Winnipeg , although we recognize the 3843

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 beauty of them and we also recognize that we would like to maintain Winnipeg as probably one of the most treed cities in Canada-I certainly appreciate the beauty of the city and the trees herein-I think the province has made a substantial contribution towards keeping the Dutch elm disease out of the province and will do so, hopefully, ih the future . I think we must remember that when we are asked to continually make budgetary cuts in given areas, then the DED Program is exempted from those kinds of decisions. · Mr.

Taylor: I will just point out information I have to the Minister is that the contribution to the other urban municipalities in Manitoba is $1 per capita compared to about 60 percent to 62 percent per capita for Winnipeg . Secondly, I will ask the Minister , he can leave ii he wishes on the record, a rhetorical question is, what is the cost-and the Minister might want to listen to this-of not maintaining those trees in the sense of having a less healthy environment in the city?

What is the cost for the removal of the trees over roughly a two-year period when the disease hits because we have not staved it off with high maintenance levels? I would suggest to him the numbers I have are in the range of $60 million to remove those trees and take them away and destroy them. Mr. Penner: I guess, No. 1, to set the record straight as to how much the province contributes to the OED Program in other municipalities, it is my understanding that we contribute to the R.M.'s on a dollar-for-dollar basis. In other words , we match, dollar-for-dollar basis, the program.

The City of Winnipeg receives a flat $350,000 and , if there are-I am not sure exactly how many people ·there are in the City of Winnipeg but, if the 600,000 figure is correct, then it would appear to me that the City of Winnipeg in fact receives more than a better deal than 50-50 on a per capita basis .

It would appear to me then that the City of Winnipeg , although minimal, receives a minimal benefit over and above what the R.M.s do. · On top of that , it appears that the Urban Affairs Department also contributes to the OED Program and, therefore, again would be a contribution above the 50- cent dollars that the municipalities receive . Mr. Taylor: The flat $350,000 is all that is received from the Province of Manitoba . At times , there have been other joint city-federal programs and, on one occasion in the last eight years, there was a joint federal provincial-city program .

Other than that , there has never been, as far as I know, any other contributions by Manitoba, and the city's contribution now is approaching a million dollars, I believe . Mr. Penner: It would appear to m~ that the last comments again need to be probably addressed with Urban Affairs, but there are a number of times that contributions have been made through the Urban Affairs Department and as contributions to the DED Program .

It is an indication that the province is very aware of the seriousness of the Dutch elm disease problem, and it is also very aware of what the .. costs are to the province of maintaining that program. therefore, I say when ;the judgment c11II i_s made on maintaining some of these programs, it will be reviewed, as are other programs . Mr. Chairman: 7.(

b) Forest Management:

(1) Salaries-pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 7.(

c) Silviculture : ( 1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass ; 7.(

d) Forest Protection:

(1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 7.(

e) Regional Management:

(1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 7.(

f) Northern Development Agreement - Provincial - Forest Renewal :

(1) Salaries pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 7 .(

g) Forest Development Program :

(1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass ; 7.(

h) Can~da-Man ·itoba Forest Renewal Agreement: (1)" Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures - pass . Resolution No. 124: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exce~ding $12,221,500 for Natural Resources, Forestry, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989_-~~ss. 8. Fisheries: Provides for the management" of sport and commercial fisheries, fish stocking , fish habitat programs and for Northern .Fishermen 's Freight Assistance . (

a) Administration :

(1) Salaries-pass . 8 .(a)

(2) Other Expenditures-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: I would propose that if there are no other questions that an omnibus motion would be in hand to pass all the sub-items and one motion to pass the main item itself. Mr. Chairman: Our instructions are that we have to go line by line . Mr. Taylor: Are you referring to instructions from the House? Mr. Chairman: From my Honourable Clerk . Mr. Taylor: It is an acceptable procedure to use an omnibus motion and it certainly would speed things up. Mr. Chairman: By leave in the House, you can do so. Our instructions are to go through it line by line. 8.(a)(2)-pass ; 8.(

b) Regional Management:

(1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass ; 8.(

c) Fish Culture :

(1) Salaries-pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures pass; 8.(

d) Fisheries Enhancement :

(1) Salaries-pass . 8.(dX2) Other Expenditures-the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: I just wanted to ask a question on the fishing in the Saskatchewan River. It has been affected by the Campbell Dam in Saskatchewan and the Grand Rapids Darn in Manitoba, and fish in that area have been deteriorating . Is the Minister open to a program the same as was conducted in Lake Winnipegosis to give that industry an opportunity to recover like it has in Lal<e Winnipegosis? *

(1540) Mr. Penner: That is a difficult one. it appears to me that there needs to be a review of what happened in 3844

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 that area and what the downstream effects have been on the actions taken on some of that river, and then· assess what further actio ns need to be taken , if any. Mr. Harapiak: Is the department open to stocking the Saskatchewan River because there is a capacity that is available at the Grand Rapids Hatchery _v1hich will be utilized to a much greater degree this year. So is it open to stocking in the Saskatchewan River as well? Mr. Penner: We are currently assessing what the needs are in that area .

We are also currently assessing what should happen to the Grand Rapids Fish Hatchery in the future and the future operations of the hatchery , whether they can be enhanced or whether we should continue to operate them as we have been, or whether we should take another look at the whole fish hatcheries initiative in the province. Mr. Harapiak: Has there been any progress made with Manitoba Hydro to support t_he operating costs of the hatchery in Grand Rapids? Mr. Penner: There have been some discussions take place between Manitoba and our department as to the operations of the fish hatchery .

Manitoba Hydro has fairly clearly indicated that they believe that they have no further liability or responsibility to the maintenance of the operation of the fish hatchery at this time . Mr. Harapiak: Did you say }Jlanitoba Hydro feels they have no responsibilities? Mr. Penner: Yes. Mr. Harapiak: So they have definitely decided against supporting it? Mr. Penner: They are simply maintaining the same position · that they have had for a number of years as to the _operation of the fish hatchery at Grand Rapids . Mr. Chairman: 8.(d)(2)-pass ; 8.(

e) Commercial Fishing Management:

(1) Salaries-pass . 8.(e)

(2) Otl)er E>i"penditures - the Member for Dal!phin ._ -Mr. John Plohman-(Dauphin): I am only going to say that let "Jhe record show that we would have had a number of questions in this area but, because of the time , we were not able to ask , as with a lot of other areas in here. I firmly disagree with th is process but I have no alternative . Mr. Taylor:_ .I will echo those concerns , given what has happen _ed in the l;stimates process . Time management having falfen apart, it might be in good order when the caucuses negotiate for the next Session that the departments be done in reverse order. Mr.

Penner: It certainly was not my doing that four or five hours were allocated towards Natural Resources. I believe Natural Resources is a large department , sometimes very underestimated . I think that in the due ~ process I would not be at all adverse to spending more time in Natural Resources and reviewing the operatio n of Natural Resources. The comments that have been made by the Honol!r.able Members at the table are valid comments. I would hope that for the betterm ent of the resource department , I would think tha t we migh t use a different process to allocate time next time around . Mr.

Plohman: Yes, just one final comment on that, just for the statt:s benefit, the reason why there was only five or six hours allocated and then down to four was because some 40 hours or 50 hours were used in one department earlier on, Community Services , Health , and it got to the point where there were very few hour s of the 240 left . I just want that to be known to the staff , because actually I know there is a lot of preparation goes into these Estimates and we are very interested in a lot of areas . We just do not have tim e to deal with them . Mr. John Angus (St.

Norbert): With respect to the giving up of time, I would like to request perm ission of the committee to ask time about the water supp ly to the City of Winnipeg from Shoal Lake, whether it should be done now or whether it should be done at the general line. I think that particular portion may have been passed but I would like to-notwithstanding the agreements that have been made between the House Leaders , it is a legitimate question on behalf of 600 ,000 citizens and I would like it addressed . Mr.

Chairman: At the moment , we are dealing with Commercial Fishing Management and I would suggest , under the Minister's Salary , it could be discussed . Mr. Angus: Oh, good. Mr. Chairman: 8.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass ; 8.(

f) Sport Fishing Management :

(1) Salaries - pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures - pass ; 8.(

g) Northern Fishermen' s Freight Assistance-pass; 8.(

h) Fishermen's Loan Program Administration - pass . Resolution No. 125: Resolved that there be be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,170,900 for Natural Resources, Fisheries, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989- pass . 9. Wildlife: Provides for programs to manage and develop wildlife resour c es for commercial and recreational uses. (

a) Administration:

(1) Salaries pass ; 9.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass ; 9.(

b) Operat ional Management :

(1) Salaries - pass; 9.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass ; 9.(b)

(3) Grant Assistance pass ; 9.(

c) Habitat Management:

(1) Salaries - pass; 9.(c)

(2) Other Expend itures - pass ; 9.(

d) Biological Services: ( 1) Salaries - pass ; 9.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 9.(d)

(3) Grant Assistance - pass ; 9.(

e) Regional Management:

(1) Salaries - pass; 9.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 9.(

f) Northern Development Agreement - Provincial - Wildlife Management :

(1) Salaries , $128,300 - pass; 9.(1)

(2) Other Expenditur es pass . (

g) Fur Management :

(1) Salaries-the Member for The Pas. 3845

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 Mr. Harapiak: One question, what would be the assistance for the trappers for converting to the more humane types of trapping? Mr. Penner: We have had discussions with the Trappers ' Association , as well as we have had discussions with our federal counterparts on the implementation of a more humane trapping system . However, I should indicate to you that we in the province probably are one of the few provinces that has in fact in a very minimal basis entered into a Trap Exchange Program.

Hopefully, if we can get funding to expand that Trap Exchange Program which will lead towards the more humane trapping practices . I think the most important one here too is the education program for trappers that we have embarked upon and new trappers that we have embarked upon this year is a significant step forward, and I would think will lead eventually to a much more humane way of taking animals for fur, whether it is for fur or for human consumption . •

(1550) Mr. Chairman: 9.(g)

(1) Salaries-pass ; 9.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 9.(g)

(3) Grant Assistance-pass; 9.(

h) Canada-Manitoba Waterfowl Damage Prevention Agreement - pass ; 9 .(

j) Commercial Wildlife Management : ( 1) Salaries - pass; 9.(j)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 9.(j)

(3) Grant Assistance-pass; 9.(j)

(4) Big Game Damage Compensation - pass . Resolution No. 126: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,035 ,100 for Natural Resources, Wildlife, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1989-pass . 10. Surveys and Mapping : Provides a central provinc ial service in legal and control surveys , topographic and geographic mapping and remote sensing . Provides for the maintenance of a provincial air photo library and operation of a central map office. (

a) Administration: (

I) Salaries - pass; 10.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 10.(

b) Field Surveys : (

I) Salaries pass; 10.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 10.(b)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - pass; 10.(

c) Mapping: (

I) Salaries-pass; 10.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 10.(c)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass ; 10.(

d) Map Distribution and Remote Sensing: (

I) Salaries-pass ; 10.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 10.(d)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass ; 10.(

e) Computer Services and Data Management : (

I) Salaries-pass ; 10.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass . Resolution No. 127: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,295 ,700 for Natural Resources, Surveys and Mapping , for the fiscal year ended the 31st day of March 1989- pass. 11. Resource Support Program : Provides for the operation of the offices of the · Manitoba Water Commission , Garrison Diversion Opposition and the Conservation Districts Authority . P.rovides funding for the Manitoba Habitat Enhancement Fund and grant , support to the Nl:ltural Resource Institute . (

a) Manitoba Water Commission:_the Member for St. Norbert . Mr. Angus: Are we maintaining an office for Garrison? Mr. Penner: We do pay part of a salary towards a lobbyist, a lawyer situated in Washington who deals with these issues on an ongoing basis . Mr. Angus: When was that last reviewed as to return on investment , as it were? Mr. Penner: It is reviewed on an ongoing basis •. We have discussions periodically in our department whether · we should or should not, or whether we should increase our activities there or not.

As you are probably aware, the Americans are considering construction possibilities on the Garrison right now. We are keeping an eye on what-our person in Washington is keeping an eye on what is being said and what direction it might take and, if it is deemed that it might be. aaversarial to our interest, we will make our views known . · Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman , a couple of questions on this issue , can the Minister indic-a-te· what agreement he was talking about in the House that the previous Government signed with regard to Garrison?

He said on November 2 that is in an agreement that "I can put on record and would be willing to table in this Hou·se." He also referenced that the NOP administration were signators to the Garrison agreement. I would just ask the Minister , if he has that agreement that he is talking about , would he be willing to table it in the House? Mr. Penner: I was referring, Mr. Chairman, to the Reformulations Act. Mr. Plohman: In fact, there is no such agreement then that the Minister was talking about that the previous Government were signatories to.

In fact , he is talking about the Garrison Diversion Unit Reformulation Act of 1986 , which is

an act of the Congress and House of Representatives of the United States . Mr. Penner: Yes, and Manitoba agreed to the conditions of the Act . Mr. Plohman: I do not see a signature on the bottom here or even a place for Manitoba's signature on this act . Surely, the Minister will now admit that he was not prov iding accurate information in the House when he came forward and said that the Manitoba Government, the NOP administration, were signatories to the Garrison agreement and he can put it on record and table it in this House . There was no such agreement . Is that a fact?

The Minister has admitted that, and will he now withdraw his allegation that there was an agreement signed by the previous Government? Mr. Penner: I indicated to the House that Manitoba · h&d agreed to allowing water to flow out of the Garrison project and into the Cheyenne River to supply water . to the Ciµes of Fargo and Grand Forks, and that one of the ·provisions of the agreement states very clearly that it be done in such a manner that the biota transfer will not take place that had been referred to at times . That is what I was referring to in my remarks in the tiouse. 3846

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 Mr. Plohman : Mr. Chairman, the Minister continues to • use the word " agreement ." In fact, there is no agreement, and there was never a signed agreement . There was never even an unsigned agreement on the revised Garrison Reformulation Act of 1986. The fact is that there was an intense lobby in this province 'with the Government very much involved and all• parties Involved to have this changed because we were very concerned about what was happening. When the Reformulation Act indeed took place, we were somewhat relieved that it was not going to be as disastrous on Manitoba as we previously thought. That does not constitute agreement, and

an Act of Parliament or

an Act of another province in the Legislature of another province does not constitute an agreement nor does

an Act of the Congress in the House ·of Representatives constitute an agreement. I would ask the Minister to clarify that . Mr. Penner: The previous administration , I indicated that they were supportive of a pipeline being constructed to supply the Cities of Fargo , North Dakota and the City of Grand Forks with a better supply of water. Mr. Mackling and also Mr. Uruski, in meeting with the authorities in the .United States, indicated their support for the- •

(1600) An Honourable Member: Can we see that? -. Mr. Penner: Yes, you can. They indicated their support for the construction of a pipeline that would in fact transfer water from the Garrison Basin into the Cheyenne River which would flow to the Cities of Fargo and Grand Forks. Mr. Plohman: What strikes me is that what we have here is somewhat of a relief by Government and the people of Manitoba that there might be something happening that was a lesser of two evils, but certainly not support for transfer of water. If there was such an agreement , I would ask again the Minister to table such an agreement.

Otherwise, I would ask him not to refer to the Reformulation J.1,_ct or any1hing that it had to do with the revised Garrison as something that Manitoba was.Jn any way promoting and, therefore , agreeing to. Really, we are only one voice against a very strong , ·powerful g·roup that-was undertaking something in the United States · that would have, what we felt , very negative effects on- Manitoba . I want to just ask the Minister briefly as well why he chose to play down the recent developments on Garrjson, the_ biota study that is now being undertaken by the Conser _vancy District in North Dakota .

I want to point out to him th~t earlier this year, Mr. Bob Clarkson, ' who has been in 'charge of this issue or handling and leading this issue from Manitoba's point of view , from the Government's point of view over a number of years .and I believe has done an excellent job in representing Manitoba's interest , had indicated some deep concern with -the fact that this biota study was continuing and bringing it to my attention as Minister and the Deputy Minister's attention .

He said the approval of the study is another indication of the Conservancy District's commitment to continue its efforts to eventually obtain approval for the irrigation of lands within the Hudson Bay basin . He said that it is more and more importan t that we continue our t~r.ust to ensure that the Sykeston e Canal is built, rather than a reservoir such as the . Lonetree Reservoir or the mid-Dakota Reservoir which has been proposed later. He said, "I believe that it is essential that an early decision is made as to whet her or not we should seek to become involved in this bio ta study.

Involvement at an early stage could ensure that we will have confidence in the results of the study or be in a position to identify its shortcomings. If we are not involved in the study, then I believe we must take action to ensure that we document shortcomings and ensure that we assemble all available data on thi s problem so that we can properly judge it s recommendations and present a counterposition if necessary." He also said that the Fisheries Branch, from Fisheries and Oceans Canada, should be involved.

I had asked at the time the election was called, at the time almost coincidental that this issue was takin g shape again , that the department prepare a Cabinet paper to deal with this and an action plan as to how we should deal with the biota studies. I said that the best initial action is to try to have the study abandoned . Failing that, obviously Manitoba 's interest must be protected by being involved if we could not get it abandoned .

So I say that the Minister 's staff have said over the last number of months when I was Minister-and I believe they would not have changed their position since this Minister has become involved-that there is reason to be concerned that the Conservancy District in North Dakota continues to want to have its way, regardles s of what the Reformulation Act is and what the U.S. Congress and House of Representatives have said . So I ask the Minister , has he continued with that concern? He did not seem to indicate that.

He seemed to say that, really there was nothing to worry about , in the House when we asked th e questions-that is what I got out of his statements and nothing new, so to speak . I would like to ask him whether indeed he has followed up with that. Has he put in place representatives or asked for representation on the study teams so that Manitoba would be represented? Has he senior officials involved? What direction has he given those senior officials? These were all questions I asked in the House but were not answered .

I know that there is a representative from the university , the Dean of Science from the University of Manitoba. The Minister has clearly indicated that he was not involved in that appointment , and so I do not consider that person a representative of th e Government. So I ask this Minister , what steps is he taking? I would come at this issue then from a completely different point of view than the Membe r previously in raising it that there is a great deal to be concerned about because the move is certainly there in North Dakota to continue to push . this issue.

Would the Minister agree with that and would he give us the action that he has taken? Mr. Penner: We can spend a long time on this issue . As a matter of fact , we could spend the next two or 3847

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 three days debating this Garrison issue . It will be an ongoing issue. I think the Honourable Member will concur that the province should maintain a vigilant eye as to what activities are, or will be, ongoing in North Dakota . I think it is also fair to assume that there will be groups in Nor.th Dakota continually advocating the expansion of the areas that are irrigable . Maybe even there might be at times approaches made to various authorities to allow even the flowing of water into areas that are not allowed now.

For that reason, I think it might be of interest to the Honourable Member that we have maintained the services of Mr. Clarkson , because of his knowledge and his background and his expertise in this whole area . We have also maintained the staffing , or retained a legal person in Washington, who will keep an eye on and make sure that any discussions that would lead us to believe that there might be an effort made to move water out of the Garrison Basin into the Red River Valley and into the Churchill Watershed Basin , we will keep track of.

However , I am very willing to table in this Chamber or in the Legislature the document that indicates very clearly the support shown by the previous two Ministers of the previous Government , the support shown towards the construction of a pipeline to transfer water out of the Garrison and into the Red River and into the Churchill River Basin . That was not done by this administration , that was done by the previous administration . I am quite willing to table those documents if you want them .

I think it is also fair to say that we have continued, under my ministry, to give direction to my staff that would indicate very clearly that we maintain the vigilance that the Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) is so concerned about now when he is not in power . I can also table , because the letter is dated November 22, the response to a query that you made when you were Minister as to what in fact was happening in the Garrison, and what would happen when and if other considerations were being made . That response we received just a few days ago . It is public information .

If you want to have a look at it, you are certainly able to. I can read it into the record if you want me to , if you want to spend that amount of time . Mr. Plohman: Just in conclusion , clearly there is no agreement . I would like the Minister to table any information that he has which shows support for what was being proposed, and what was in fact the action plan that the Reformulation Act called for.

Surely, Manitoba's position would have been and I believe , in the proper context, would be that any suppo rt for anything that was different from our wholesale transfer of water for irrigation purposes into the Hudson Bay Basin would have been deemed to be looked pretty positive alongside of what was being proposed initially. But I would still like him to table any documents so that we can put this in context as to the kind of support that the Ministers that he mentioned were giving . I would ask him to table those documents and I, in the interest of time, will not debate it any further at this point . *

(1610) Mr.

Penner: I think just for information and to set the record straight, I think it is important to note that in a submission made by the previous administration to the Garrison Diversion Unit Commission by the Government of Manitoba dated September 11, 1984, in Bismarck, North Dakota, that the previous administration indicated very clearly, if water is needed in the cities of North Dakota within the Hudson Bay Basin that cannot be met in •this manner ; we would be prepared to consider the approval of development of a water treatment and delivery system which would treat water on the Missouri side of the Divide before delivering in a safe and satisfactory manner the water required to meet the supplementary needs of these cities.

That was agreed to by Mr. Mackling and Mr. Uruskl. An Honourable Member: Is the lake water treated? Mr. Penner: Certainly, it is treated . I never said that it was not treated . I have indicated very clearly that it was treated in such a manner that there would not be a biota transfer . Now let us om::e ·and for all get this issue straight . It was your admin istration that agreed to the transfer of water out of the Garrison. It was not ours . Mr. Chairman: Order, please . Mr. Penner: It is time that I think we deal with this issue. Some Honourable Members: Oh , oh! Mr. Chairman: Order, please . Mr.

Penner: I think the -reference made to this Government and our willingness to consider the expansion of the Garrison that would allow water to be transferred to the Churchill Basin out of Garrison is simply not so. I want to make sure that the record shows that I have indicated very clearly to staff that my concerns are as great as the previous or maybe greater than the previous administration , because the previous administration was the administration that agreed to transferring water out of the Garrison Basin and into the Churchill Basin.

It was not this Government , nor have we at any time or are we considering allowing further transfers of water to take place, whether treated or not , or agreeing to it. Mr.· Plohman: Mr. Chairman , clearly the Minister referred to a document that was written in 1984. The Reformulation Act took place in 1986 , obviously successful in the lobbying efforts that were undertaken, perhaps put forward as a position to show that there was a reasonable approach being taken by Jhe Government of Manitoba to get off of something that was of dire concern to Manitoba , treated water being much less of a concern obviously .

The Minister keeps throwing.c>ut the matter of water but he does not make the distinction between treated water and untreated water for irrigation purposes . They are two different things completely . The second thing is I asked this Minister, not accused him of not caring about the transfer of water. I asked 3848

Tuesday, December 6, 1988 him whether he was going to, indeed what assurances he could give us-it is all in Hansard-during tl'le Question Period , whethe r he was going to ensure t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-92
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 92.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	81b4954126dda1351b1c5667c52f80dee103b801

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