VOL. 4 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MARCH 30, 1979 NO. 13

.~:· March 30, 1979 Tape No. 596 NM - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition from the people of Davidsville, Main Point, Harris Point, George Point, Clarke's Head, Wing's Po_i_n:J; , Victoria Cove, Rodgers Cove. The prayer of the petition is that "we hereby petition the government of the Province of Newfoundland to have all gravel roads in the area upgraded and paved:' And they give mileage here, Mr.

Speaker, from Rodgers Cove to Home's Cove which I think most of that mileage is in - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order. The hon. the Premier is on his way to the House for "Statem e nt by Ministers " . He has a short statement to make and I wonder if we could revert to that and then come back to the petition . Would there be consent with that? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I think, Sir, that the hon. gentleman is being very rude interrupting my friend presenting a petition. We will give the Premier an opportunity to make his ministerial statement somewhere along the line. MR. MARSHALL: Okay. Thank you. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: CAPTAIN WINSOR: if the Premier - Do not be so rude and nasty. Order, please! The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I have no objection As I stated, Mr. Speaker, the request in this petition deals with quite a number of miles of roads in the Lewisporte district,al though all of the petitioners . - 1.503

:.tarch 30, 1979 Tape No. 596 NM - 2 CAPTAIN WlNSOR: are in the district of Fogo, and the request in the petition is calling for all gravel roads to be paved and this 1 I would suspect,means all of the roads leading to the ferry terminal at Farewel l from Stoneville, Horwood and down that stretch of rpad,then all of the gravel roads around Clarke's Head. I might also include in supporting the petition that all of the gravel roads on the Mainland side of Fogo district now should be upgraded and paved,and certainly while the paving equipment is in that area, and this would include , . 1504

~!arch 30, 19 79 Tape 597 DH - 1 CAPT. E. WINSOR: the branch road leading down to Aspen Cove and Ladle Cove. There is not a terrible amount of gravel road left in that area and while the equipment is there I think the government should take advantage of it and do all of the gravel roads. Once done and completed in the long term I think the zovernment will save an awful lot of money because they will no longer have to keep those gravel roads maintained as they do now. I certainly support the petition, !1r. Speaker, and have it laid on the Table of the House and direct it to the department to which it relates. MR.

SP~ER: MR. F. WHITE: petition presented The hon. member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the by my colleague for ~ogo district (Capt. Winsor). The petition does call for the upgrading and paving of a considerable amount of road in my own district,namely~the

section from Holmes, Cove to Rodgers Cove and the branches to Horwood, Stoneville and Port· · Albert. Those who do not know the significance of this road should remember that it is the main link between the Trans-Canada Highway and the New World Island - Twillingate area.· At the present time they use the road to Lewisporte ~ which is paved~hut it is an extra seventeen miles long.

It is my contention that this road should have been included in the Loop Road programme a few years ago because it is part of the Loop Road in that area 1 and it is my contention that that should have been included then and I would hope that some move is made in that direction. We also have a new ingredient now to the importance of getting that road paved, The new ferry terminal for Change Islands is going to be built at Farewell and this will mean additional traffic coming over that highway. So I do hope that the government sees fit to provide a programme this year for the upgrading and of paving this area.

And I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Leave to revert to "Statements?" SO~ HON . MEMBERS: By leave. '. 1505

~·arc h 30, 19 79 ~tR. SPUKER: ?R~R PECKFORD: Tape :-lo. 59 7 Si'A'!EMEN'!S BY ~ITN1STEP. S Hon. Premier. I wish to thank mecbers of the Opposit i on for a~lowin g us to revert to a previous order of business.! regret that I was no~ here. I was on Rer Maj esty ' s elevators and was not: able ~o make it. T'W - 2 X:::. Speaker, I wish to refer to t he report of the Auditor General t o the House of Assembly for t he f i nancial year ended Marc3 3lst.,l978 , which was recently tabled before- the House.

I would like to report t hat: measures have bee.n taken to ensure that the i rregular i ties and other concerns pointed out: in the Auditor General's report do not re-occur. In this respect ~I wish to table copies o f a memorandum sent to all ministers and deputy ministers 1506

March 30, 1979 Tape 598 SD-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: to ensure that extra care is taken with respect to the Public Tendering Act and the Financial Administration Act. Furthermore, the Deputy Minister of Finance and comptroller for the Province, through the Internal Audit Division of the Department of Finance~. are presently reviewing the report of the Auditor ·General in detail and have in fact already had intensive discussions with all of the department involved with a view to developing specific remedial measures. This detailed review will be made available to the Public Accounts Committee at an early date. I would like also to draw the attention of the House to

Section 14 of the Report of the Auditor·General, page 8, In that

section the Audito~ General asks that a separate Act constituting the Auditor ·. General's Office be passed by this House. The Auditor- _General further asks that the mandate of the Auditor ·General be expanded to incorporate the value of money concept of analysing the Government's finance stewardship. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor ·General's suggestions in this regard are worthy of this House's most serious consideration. Consequently, may I suggest to the House that we establish an independent review committee of the office of the Auditor General.

Officials of Government are currently reviewing the work of similar review committees in other jurisdictions particularly as to the best composition and exact terms of reference of such a committee. Government will be placing suggestions in this regard before the House at an early date. Mr. Speaker, I would like to assure the House that this administration will do all in its power to improve the procedures used to ensure the proper expenditure of public funds. SOME HON. MEMBERS PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear.

Before the hon. member opposite responds, I would like, perhaps, for the two House Leaders to get together a little 1.507

)fa rcil 30 , 197 9 Tape 5 98 SD-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: bit later oa. - as bon. me~~~bers know there is a press conference thia morning that CN is having relate» to major matters in traDSportation in the Province-and the Opposition will , have a chance, of course, to respond as well - that later on in the proceedings of the House this morning I would like an opportunity to table the Government 1 s response to the latest initiatives made by CN and to g~ve the Opposition a chance to respond to them.

I will have a copy, it is now being typed.,for the OppositiOn, long before it will be tabled. md,say,five minutes for each side to just respond in a general way to these initiatives. I think they are very important. me to make this statement. MR. SPEAKER: (}{r. Ottenheimer) MR. R. SIMMONS: Tbank you very liiUc:h for allowing Ron. member for Burgi!o-Bay d 1Espoir. Mr. Speaker, first of all let me, on behalf of the OppositiOn, thank the Premier for his rather prompt response to the generality of what is contained iD. the latest Auditor General's report. This is a first iD. that we never had .. 1508

xarch 30, 1979 MR. SI!o!MONS: Tape No. 599 AH-1 this kind of response from government as a whole on the subject of the Auditor General's Report. We have had lots of ducking the issue, you remember. Indeed~last year at one point government undertook to give us definitive statements in respect of each department of government which had been named in the Auditor General's Report. To this date we have only had one such statement from the former Minister of Public Works, the member for Menihek (Mr.Rousseau).

I hope that the indications given by the hon. the Premier this morning are followed through and that we will indeed hear something~indeed in detail,about the various points made by the Auditor General. I say I hope. Without doubting his word at all,I do not hold out a lot of hope and I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker.

Because,you see,while the impression is given in the Premier's address or stateni~_!lt to the House that somehow this document it is a new. document to the permanent heads of departments, the fact is that the heads of the respective departments have seen draft versions of what is in this report as much as four months ago. AN RON. MEMBER: The draft document was ( inaudi bk) . MR. SI:!AMONS: That is right. They would be aware as much as four months ago, Mr. Speaker, of what the Auditor General purposed to say in respect to their particular department. They did not see the full report.

For example,the Deputy Minister of Public Works t~ould not have been made privy to what the Auditor General is going to say about Fisheries 1for example~but he would have been made privy to what is going to be said about his department,which is the important thing. So for four months the Deputy Minister of Public Works,for example~would be aware of what would be the substance of this report. And so I say it is a bit late now - not too late, I did not say that;.. but it is a bit late now, Mr. Speaker, for those in government just to be taking initiative on this particular report. And that is why, Mr. Speaker, 1509

!'..a.rr:h JO, 1 ~79 Tape No. 5~~ AB-2 }1R. SI'MMONS: we have )Jeen asking questions all wecek on this particular repoTt. We realize the minist.ers are only in their new portfolios this week, but their depuey ministers, without exception•with 011e exception; Mr. Pike who was reeently named to another department -with one exeept:lon the deputy ministll!rB have bad lots of time to do their homework and prepare the piece of paper for their new minister to read. never. However,bet~er late than The Premier in his statement, Mr. Speaker, mentioned the Public Acc.oQnts COIIIIId.ttee.

N.ow I wish somebody once and for all, either on tbe radio,which BeeJIIB to be ·the way we get most of our news from the Public Accounts Comaittee tl!.ese days from govenuaent, eithecr on the radio or in the House wo!lld tell us what they intend. to do about the Public Accounts Committee,_ as long as they~- \ . 15:10

March 30, 1979 Tape 600 Mr. Simmons: tell us in one consistent way ~ather than telling it several ways depending on the time of day. For instance, I have heard,one, they are going to make the committee effective. And then PK - l I have heard,two, they are going to have the House appoint four Government members and three Opposition members, and let the committee pick a chairman. One, they are going to make it effective, and,two, they are going to have the committee pick its own chairman. These two, Mr. Speaker, are mutually exclusive. You cannot make it effective in that particular way.

It will continue to be a government whitewash committee. I would hope that the Premier will change his mind on this particular issue, ~f indeed the member for Mount Scio (Dr. Winsor) was reflecting his viewpoints when he spoke on the radio, I think . ~n the last day or so,on this business of how they are going to reactivate the Public Accounts Committee. Mr. Speaker, the Premier's comments with respect to a new audit approach, the value for money approach, the need for additional,or separate,! ought to say,audit legislation, a separate Audit Act. understand, for example, Mr.

Speaker, that a separate Audit Act is a fact of life in five or six other provinces of Canada at this very moment. Indeed, not only in Ottawa, but also in Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba; and Quebec is getting ready to bring in

an Act right now. Saskatchewan I am not sure of, but the other provinces in Atlantic Canada do not have such

an Act. There is quite an extensive report on the role of the Auditor General at the federal level called by the same terminology that the Premier choose this morning for his purposed study, an Independent Review Committee of the office of the Auditor General. That is existing- others have been done- not only existing, but it is quite recent; it was done in the last couple of years. And there are other reports on the function of the Auditor General. 151~

March 30, 1979 Tape 600 PK - 2 Mr. S i I!IOOns: I would submit, Mr. Speaker, while I cannot take a position against more knowledge at any time, l would submit that the more expeditious route here would be a white paper on the typ~ of audit legislation we ought to have. I believe the study of the Auditor General tends to introduce,either unwittingly or otherwirse , a red herring into the whole question of scrutiny of the Public Accounts. And I do not think in any respect that the Auditor General has been lax in his duty.

There have been two issues, one relates to the politics of the matter which - and it is not the time to go into that - but the ether relates to narrow scope of the legislation under •IIIlich he operates. And I would submit to the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, that the appropriate route to go would be to bring in audit legislation, or as a first step probably a White paper for appropriate audit legislation, given that we are not breaking new ground,we would be doing what six other provinces of Canada and the federal government have already done, and in so doing we would have the availability of an Independent Review Committee's Report at the federal level only in the past couple of years . 1512

:·larch 30, 1979 Tape 601 EC - 1 ~lR. S HI~!ONS: With these comments, Mr. Speaker, we welcome the Premier's announcement that the report is being scrutinized. We wonder why it has taken so long - it is better late than never. SOME HON. MEMBERS: :IR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Are there further petitions? ORAL QUESTIONS The han. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the han. the Premier, Sir, in connection with the reactivation or the reopening of the oil refinery at Come By Chance. Mr.

Tamraz of the First Arabian Corporation has expressed impatience publicly. He is becoming impatient with the government,so he says. How, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could tell us if he is concerned about Hr. Tamraz 1 s impatience? tlhether he is impatient or not, what difference it is going to make. whether they are threatening to pull out? Give us an update on the situation as far as the First Arabian's proposal is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I have icst in the last couple of days had meetings, I think yesterday morning, on the whole Come By Chance refinery situation with various departments of government and with the ministers for those departments and the status of the whole question of the Come By Chance Oil Refinery is simply,this that by next Wednesday or Thursday the report of Thorne Riddell should be in our hands and we will be in a position then to review the proposals of both corporations as it relates to their . 1.5:13

~arch 30, 1979 T~pe 601 EC - 2 ?REXIER PECKFORD: efforts to buy and reactivate the refinery. At that point in time we will analyze both proposals and take a position as it relates to one of those proposals and provide the House, if the House is open next week, with all the information that we have at our disposal so that our position on the refinery will be clear to everybody,and we will substantiate it through the House if the House is open. So the situation is that we are up-to-date on all the infornation available to us. We are waiting now for the Thorne Riddell study.

I think the main reason why it is not in is because one of the senior partners of the firm was away, after it was totally compiled he wanted to review it, It would be to us by next Wednesday or Thursday, then a committee of officials and ministers which has been formed as of yesterday morning will be reviewing that, reviewing all the information of both proposals,and government will be in a position to take a firm decision on the proposals and say publicly which one we support so that we can expedite then that proposal, getting approva~from the six or seven federal agencies that are involved that must give their approvals through Environment, Public Works and so on.

So we are totally up to date on all the information that can be available to government right now and will have the additional information necessary by the middle or end part of next week, and hopefully, very, very soon after that will be ,. 1514

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 602 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: in a position to say where we stand on both proposals; by so doing we can expedite the whole process of getting the refinery started. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would assume from the hon. gentleman's answer that Mr. Tamaraz and the First Arabian have agreed to allow Peat Marwick to give up their proposal _to the Newfoundland Government so that they can have both proposals on the table, they can evaulate both proposals at the same time.

But I would like to ask the Premier, the Thorne Riddell Report is due in next Wednesday or Thursday, what about the First Arabian proposal, when is that due in? Is there any guarantee, any assurance, that the government is going to get that proposal so they can compare the two proposals? Does the Premier have any guarantee that that is forthcoming? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well we will have at our disposal all the information on both proposals. That was what I said on my original statement a few minutes ago to the hon. member's first question. MR.

NEARY: Yes,but the hon. gentleman also told me the other day he had not been in touch with Peat Marwick or the First Arabian since he became Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: At that point in time. That was the day before yesterday. That was the day before yesterday. This is the day after yesterday and now I am in possession of additional information. One of the joys of being in any office is that as each day goes by one learns more and I hope that that continues onward into the future for a long, long period of time i:ind therefore now I am in the possession of additional 1515

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 602 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: information that I was not in possession of the day before yesterday and therefore I am able to respond the way I have just responded. MR. NEARY: Well,a supplementary question then. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Let me put it to the Premier directly. Has the Premier now been, or since the day before yesterday been in touch with Mr.

Tamaraz or anybody in the First Arabian Corporation concerning their proposal, or has the Premier been in touch with Peat Marwick to find out if the First Arabian proposal will be made available to the Newfoundland Government just the same as the Thorne Riddell Report on the Shaheen proposal? Will they get all the details? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: question - MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. Premier. Mr. Speaker, I have answered the No, you have not. - both directly and indirectly.

Yes, in the last number of days members of the Government of Newfoundland have been in touch with representatives responsible for the proposal from the First Arabian Corporation and that we will be in a position within a week or so to have all the information on both proposals at our disposal so that we, as a Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, we,as having a vested financial interest in the complex at Corne By Chance, will be able to make a firm decision as to how we want to · proceed as the Government of Newfoundland or as how we want to see this whole transaction proceeded with and to support it so it can be expedited.

MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary then, A final supplementary. 1516

~!arch 30, 1979 Tape No. 602 NH - 3 ~m . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure what impact or what influence the government's decision will have or r.ot because the ultimate decision is left in che hands of the courts and I have heard the Premier express outside the House, publicly,! believe on one of the radio stations, that any company would be foolish to come into Newfoundland unless they had the blessing and the co-operation of the Newfoundland Government. But is that as far as \.re can go? 15:17

Harch 30,1979 Tape No. 603 AH-1 ~. ~ What is our legal position? Can ~e force this? Can ~e say to the British Government, ECGD, 'Look, we favour Shaheen;o~ 'We favour First Arabian,' and that is it -no ifs, ands and buts. And if the government takes that position~will it have any effect on our borrowing or our financial position in the international financial business world? Can we tell the British Government, can this government say to the British Government, 'Look, here it is; we favour Shaheen,' or, 'We favour First Arabian' - no ifs ands and buts. MR. SPEAKER:(¥.r.Ottenheimer) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon.

Premier. Mr. Speaker, my response at this point in time is that the Government of Newfoundland,and hopefully, as the hon. member knows - the House does - if the Government of Newfoundland takes a certain position on a p~aposal for economic development in the Province, if that is the position of the government then that would carry, we would hope, a fair amount of support and weight to the various corporations who are vying to · stlmulate that economic activity.

Secondly, of course the ultimate weight on this matter would be a radical departure and that would be if t~~ government was prepared to bring in a bill or something in this House and have this House debate and then order through

an act of the legislature some particular movement or some particular preference. I think that would be a radical departure. MR. NEARY: We would have no legal status then? l!RF.MIER PECKFORD : No,our status then would be one of the clout that any normal provincial government has in the ongoing business of economic development in a province. C:ther than that it would have to be some kind of act of the legislature. Jo'R • NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: ~R. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. A final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell us the source of the crude oil, both proposals? The Premier should • . 15:18

Xarch 30,1979 Tape No. 603 AH-2 ~. NEARY: know by now the source of the crude oil, lf Shaheen gets the oil refinery,where he is going to get his crude? :f the First Arabian gets the oil refinery~where they will get their crude? What I am getting at here, Sir, just for the benefit of the hon. gentleman before he answers the question, I would like to find out from the Premier if he knows now in advance when we talk of crude oil that we are not talking about just contracts between affiliates.

The First Arabian is not just going to say that they are going to get crude from one of their affiliates, in other words,the crude oil will come from the Opec countries, from the Arabs or somebody else and not just sort of from a subsidiary of the First Arabian Corporation,or the Shaheen Corporation for that matter. MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hen. Premier. Mr. Speaker, as I understand it from the information that I have now the crude oil would be coming from the source~if you will, from the Middle East or the Opec countries because all the Opec countries are not in the Middle East.

I know but most of them are. The source of the crude would be from there and hopefully it will not be from the Ayatullah or some of his people in Iran unless the place stabilizes even more than it has now and that the women are allowed to keep shawls in their pockets. I think the source of the crude will be from the Middle East in both aspects. MR. SPEAKER: Hen. member for St. John's West,followed by the hen. gentlemen from Burgee Bay d'Espoir and Lewisporte. DR.KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Premier.

There has been a report going arourld that the Premier is in favour of either freezing electricity ~519

~!arch 30, 1979 Tape ~1o. 604 Dl-1 - 1 !lR. KITCHEN: rates br doing something about them, and now we hear that the Chief ~!andarin in charge of hydro electricity in this Province, Mr. Young,is saying that hydro electricity rates will be going up,up, up, up. Now my question to the Premier is who is the Premier? Is it Mr. Vic Young or is it himself? SOME HON. }1EMBERS: Hear, hear! ~!R. SPEAKER: Hon. Premier. PRE}!IER PECKFORD: There are two questions. I thought the latter one had been established as of a couple of days ago by

an act that was performed at C~vernment House. So . I think that one is a facetious and silly question. The other one is a very serious one and that has to do with the whole question of power rates.! think one has to remember that when a chairman of a Crown corporation responsibility speaks,he is speaking for the corporation,and when the Leader of the Government speaks he is speaking for the government and all its agencies. From the corporations point of view,obviously electricity rates have to continue· to go up in order for the corporation to pay for its ongoing expenses.

The question is,then, where will most of the money come from to pay for the expenses of the Hydro Corporation? The Hydro Corporation must always say,unless told differently, that it must come from higher electrical rates. However, govP-rnment in its wisdom tor lack thereof, can at any point in time inform its Crown corporation that it will be providing some of the revenue to the corporation from ~ther sources, from government sources,which will therefore offset the necess!ty for ongoing increases for that given fiscal ·year. So, Mr.

Young is speaking as the head of a Crown corporation responsible for electricity and he must be responsible in his statements to that corporation. It is up for government and Cabinet,as we go through the budgetary process now in the next number of weeY~,to decide whether in fact all of Hyero's r~venue will come out of increased electrical rates or whether some of it will come from electrical and other revenue will come from government. That is a decision that we will make in due couroe. I . 1520

'{arch 30, 1979 YR. KITCHEN: :-m.. SPEAKER: St. John's West. DR. KITCH~: Tare No. 604 DW - 2 A supplementary. A supplementary, the han. member for Yes, Hr. Speaker, the supplementary is- I thank the Premier for answering that part - but the question is that the chairman of the corporation has said tr.ut while a rate freeze may be politically popular it is financially not acnievable, and here I believe he is speaking more than just as the ~hairman of the Cro•Nn corporation but is speaking on political matters.

I wonder if the Premier would assure us that despite what the mandarin has said that he will introduce, as he said he would,some sort of a rate freeze on electricity rates in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: (MR. OTTEHHEI'IER) Ron. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will reiterate what I have said on many occasions in the last month or so and I would with pleasure reiterate now that in the whole budgetary process that we are involved in,government will be considering all measures necessary to stabilize electrical p~er rates in this Province.

And i! that means a freeze there will be freeze,if that does not mean a freeze then there will not be a freeze,but all alternatives will be explored by us in the preparation of our Budget. And we recognize that electrical p~~er increases in the Province have escalated at a tremendous rate over the last number of years and over the last several months and that it is becoming a very heavy burden' upon the normal,average consumers of electricity in the Province. And we are very aware of that and we are looking very carefully at it as we prepare our Budget. DR. KITCHEN: MR. SPEAKER: 'DR.

KITCHEN : Final supplementary, Sir. Final supplementary. One final one.I wonder if the Premier would undertake to speak to the mandarin in charge of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and tell him to not make political statements but just to make statements having to do with the cost of electricity? :m. SPEAKER: Ron. Premier. l . 1521.

~!arch 30, 1979 Tape ~o . 604 PR....~!IER !'ECUORI': ~!r. Speaker, ~he government and the ministers representing the governm ent will act in a very responsible 101ay as to how they treat the.ir corporations and the head o£ their corporations. ~IR • SPEA.l(ER: (~!r. Ot:tenh eimer). ~!R. Sl~!ONS : The hon . member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir . Hr . Speak.er, I to.o have a ques tion for the hon . the Premier.It relates to an announcement by his predecessor, an announcement some~il&e in October of 1978, setting up a Newfoundland Developrr.ent Caun cil of which ~1r. Andrew Crosb7, a St .

John's business=, was appointed chairman,! believ e,in the ~ remier's announcement and ~ere were five other businessmen named to that coun c il. Would the Premier, first of all~ indicate to the Rous e what is the status of this council now? Does it continue in, erlstance now in view of the changeover of t he Premiership? Is the council still in existance ? Rave i ts terms of reference changed in a respect~if indeed it is still active? 1.522

:-!arc h 3 0 , 19 7 9 Tape 605 r:c - 1 :!R. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. (~r. Ottenheimer) PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, yes, as the hen. member points out, an Economic Council of Advisors was appointed by the former Premier and is still active. I think they have one person, one secretary who does some of the typing, and they have undertaken a number of studies dealing with government. I think they have undertaken a study on the whole land question, they have undertaken a study on two or three other aspects of government and two or three of the reports are due within the next few weeks.

The whole business of that council and any other agencies of government are being reviewed now in the whole budgetary process and the government's position as it relates to that council,as well as many other things, will be made clear as we go down the road and publish a Budget in this House. ~.fR. S IMXONS: HR. SPEAKER: :l1R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. I gathered from the Premier's answer that no reports have been received from the council to date. Is that correct? PREMIER PECKFORD: No. They have a couple finished and they are waiting to meet with me to present them. ~IR.

S H!!-10NS : Yes. So that pretty well answers one of my supplementaries that there are reports forthcomi~~ - My other supplementary, Mr. Speaker, relates to the relationship of Mr. Crosbie's organization, the council - Development Council, not his other organization which would make an interesting question too - but the relationship of Mr. Crosbie's Newfoundland Development Council to the ~lanning and Priorities Secretariat of government. Does this replace the Secretariat? Does it take precedence over it? What is the ranking now? ' . 1523

:·l arch 30 . 1979 Tape 605 EC - 2 NR • S I HMON S : Are there two separate arms of government 9 as it were, one, the Development Council, the other the P and P Secretariat which is giving competing advice to government,or are they meshing somehow? Are they working together? Are members of the Secretariat represented on the Development Council or sitting there in an advisory or consultive capacity for example? What is the relationship between these two bodies? ::tR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. (Mr. Ottenheimer) PREMIER PECKFORD: ~r.

Speaker, they are separate as of the present moment and the Economic Council is doing reviews of a number of agencies and programmes of government, if you will,

whereas the Planning and Priorities Secretariat up to now has been formulating, venting policy that is already in existence, scrutinizing policies that com~ up from various departments to Cabinet on a regular basis each week, whilst the Economic Council has been scrutinizing existing programmes. The Planning and Priorities Secretariat at this point in time has not spent a great deal of its time in that area scrutinizing existing programmes and policies but rather in dealing on a weekly and monthly basis with initiatives being made by individual departments as it goes through the r.abinet process. NR.

S I:1MONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. l!R. SPEAKER : A supplementary. aR. S IMHONS: Hr. Speaker, the Premier made reference in one of his replies to secretarial backup for the council and his indication that some reports are being prepared would seem to suggest that the council has some research capability. I am wondering if the Premier could indicate to the House what kind of budget the Newfoundland Development Council has for its various activities, its secretarial, its research and whatever other expenses 152L1 . - ~

:larch 30, 197 9 Tape 605 EC - 3 ~!R. S IM;·!ONS: it eight incur. I would presume there are per diems and travel requirements or travel allowances and so on, but what kind of budget~ Is it open ended or has a dollar figure been placed on it for the operation of l-1r. Crosbie's council this year? }!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. (~r. Ottenheimer) PREMI~R ?ECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am getting that information now, so I cannot give the hon. member an exact figure. I asked the question yesterday and I think it is around $60,000 or $70,000, but I do not know if that is the final figure on it or not.

I will have to take that under advisement, but I think the figure is somewhere between $50,000 and $70,000. I will get the information for the hon. member in the next couple of days because I am in the process of getting it myself in any case. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lewisporte followed by the hon. gentleman from Terra Nova and the hon. gentleman from Fogo. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I,too, have a question for the Premier and it concerns a ratter that he has been concerned about for a number of years. In this House for the last four or five years, Mr.

Speaker, we have heard various ministers introduce all kinds of new programmes and realignme~ts ' and so on with regard to the sad situation of Crown lands in Newfoundland and now it is even worse than ever, Mr. Speaker, according to recent information that I have obtained. I wonder if the Premier can do anything about this terrible situation and try to alleviate some of the backup that is going on in Crown lands now that he is in a position to do so? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. 1525

>!arch 30, 1979 Tape 605 EC - 4 PRE~IER PECKFORD: The han. the member for Le~isporte (~r. White), ~r. Speaker, hit a very sensitive nerve with me, as he well knows. Hopefully, through the - I hate to keep saying this, Hr. Speaker- but hopefully, through the budgetary process 1526

March 30, 1979 Tape 606 PK - l Premier Peckford: and so on, we can devise , I am eager and have it as one of my first priorities to examine with the new Minister of Lands and Forest~ the whole land question in the Province from the point of view of getting the process speeded up somewhat, and getting the whole question of land and land registration looked at in the Province. I know the land registration part of it is a very expensive item, and the Maritime Provinces are presently going through that on an agreement with Ottawa.

But I think the most immediate problem is that if a person in this Province applies for a piece of land;either by letter or by application,that it should be possible for that person to have his letter or application acknowledged within a ten day period so that he knows that it got somewhere and that he then knows that it is being referred out very quickly to the agencies involved. That it has to be referred out I think goes without saying.

But where the great lapse of time and where the great frustration comes in is not after it is referred to the various agencies, but the time it takes to get it acknowledged, _it is here or somewhere and referred outJ and .then after all of the referrals come back in the time it takes of havi_~g it said that it is approved or disapprove_d or rejected, and the final documentation done.

So it is on the front end and on the back end, not with the referrals themselves.where I think we can condense the amount of time that it takes so that instead of the two or three year process we should be able to reduce that substantially. And I take that as a high priority in the establishment of a budget and in trying to streamline some parts of government. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A supplementary. The hon.member for Lewisporte. MR. ~JHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I am told that there is a three to a four month back-up in the simple drafting of Crown Land leases at the moment. I mean,can the Premier give us an undertaking that he will hire another ten or twelve draftsmen to try to catch up with this problem, this serious problem? People are waiting on mortgages all over 1527 ·.

.... ' March 30, 1979 Tape 606 PK - 2 Mr. White: this Province because of that. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: am quite aware of that, Mr. Speaker, and I will be moving quickly to try to do something about it. do not know if it is hiring a lot more staff or what is the problem there, but the hon. minister and myself have already talked about this to some degree in the last few days,~ and I will be moving quickly to try to see whether we can speed up the process. MR. WHITE: -A fina! ~upplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, this supplementary has more to do ~lith the philosophy of government with respect to Crown lands. Right now a person in this Province cannot get a piece of Crown land to own himself, all he can do is rent it from the government for the rest of his life for the next fifty years. And I heard the Premier the other day indicate that he might bring back the grant system, which is what I think should be brought back. Will the Premier give us a commitment now that a person in this Province will be able to own a piece of land and get a grant for it rather than just a lease? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORO: A great conservative principle which I thought I articulated well- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: - in the last several weeks of the 1 eadership campaign, and one which I believe strongly in,is one that the hon. member has just mentioned, and that is the whole question of lease versus grants. And, yes,we are reviewing the whole lease system and I can assure the han. member that the grant system,either totally or partially,will be reintroduced to the whole question of land in this Province in the very near future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: I had indicated that I would recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova. ' . 1528

March 30, 1979 Tape 606 PK - 3 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for,again,the Minister of labour and Manpower, but he is not here, so I will ask the Premier the question. Mr. Speaker, it relates to the offshore oil and gas vessels. And just in the way of a brief

preamble,in recent weeks I have gotten a lot of inquiries about how people should get jobs on these offshore oil and gas vessels, and I have instructed people as to what to do. Butin following up,I have not found one person out of possibly thirty or forty that I have directed to the hiring centre, not one person has gotten a job. So my question to the Premier is, what is happening? Are there any Newfoundlanders getting any jobs on those offshore oil and gas vessels? MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there are a lot of Newfoundlanders getting jobs as it relates to offshore activity in the Province this year. That the hon. member's efforts to date have been highly unsuccessful can be attributed to a number of reasons, many of which I am sure the hon. member might be aware of and that I am aware of. There are hundreds and hundreds of applications. You know, I cannot give the reason why out of the thirty that the member recommended only a couple have been hired. MR. LUSH: None.

PREMIER PECKFORD: The only thing is, I do not know if the hon. member realizes it or not,but the activity offshore has not really begun yet, and that could be a good reason why 1529

March 30, 1979 Tape 607 SD-1 PREMIEB. PECKFORD: a lot of them have not been hired. In the next month or so, I tbink, Imperial and Shell-Texaco will be moving into the Province. Right now they have been only establishing their offices here, their control offices if you will, for the ongoing activity this year so there will be some time before the supply vessels arrive on which there will be a lot of jobs on the oil rigs themselves. So, perhaps, we are into the situation where there will be a few weeks yet before actual high levelsof employment will occur. MR. T. LUSH: ~m. SPEAKER: Mr. Ottenheimer) MR. T.

LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker? Supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I believe the very setup of how this is done sort of militates against all people throughout the Province getting a fair crack at those jobs. As I understand it, I believe that there is a registration centre here in St. John's and I am just wondering whether that setup is not discriminating against all Newfoundlanders getting a reasonable opportunity, so I have a que~tion to the Premier~· - will he undertake to ensure that all .Newfoundlanders are given an equal opportunity to get jobs on these offshore oil and gas vessels? MR. SPEAKER: Han. Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: This is the first time I heard that there was even the hint or suggestion that because the centre was established in St. John's,primarily because that is where most of the onshore base for the offsl1ore will be taking p~ace, that there will be any discrimination versus Newfoundlanders in one part of the Province over other parts of the Province. I think it is fair to say of last year's activity that the majority of Newfoundlanders who worked with any of the companies were from rural parts of the Province and not from St. John's.

If anything it has worked in reverse from what the bon. member seems to be suggesting. I can assure him that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. C. Doody) and the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) 1530

March 30, 1979 Tape 607 SD-2 PR?MIER PECKFORD: are fairly familiar with the way this thing operates and that there will be no discrimination in hiring practices as it relates to Newfoundlanders from one part of the Province over Newfoundlanders from another part of the Province. MB., T. LUSH: ~. SPEAKER: (Hr, OUenheimer) MR., T. LUSH: Supplementary, .Hr. Speaker? Supplementary. I wonder if the Premier would undertake to provide the House with just how many Newfoundlanders have obtained jobs on those offshore oil and gas vessels up to this present time and indicating what areas of the Province that come from2 HR.

SPEAKER: Hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I can not very well do that now. I do not think that there is anybody started to drill yet.I do not know if the hon. member - MR. LUSH: Oh, yes! People were hired from the 19th of February. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, there are some people hired. I am not arguing the point that there are not some people hired.

The fact of the matter is that before you can get a true reflection of the composition of the labor force that is going to be servicing the offshore, one should wait until additional vessels and oil rigs and drill rigs are near our shores or actively engaged on our shores and then a list of the sort the hon. member refers to can be easily supplied, no problem. I·Ia. S .• ~"'..Y: MR, SPEAKER: MR. S. NEARY: Supplementary, Sir. Supplementary~ Hon. member for Lapoile, I was going to ask another question, Sir, but I will follow through on the question that my hon. friend was asking there.

Would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House who has control of the lists? Because the Government recently asked people interested in these jobs, acting on behalf of the oil company, to send in their names if they were interested in a job. Who ' . 1.531

March 30, 1979 Tape 607 SD-3 MR. S, NEARY: controls these lists? What department of Government? And why did this Government not follow the procedure that is laid down by Canada Manpower and have people be processed through Canada Manpower for the jobs1 And the third part of my question, why is Crosbie's companies competing with the Newfoundland Government? And I saw an ad recently in one of the papers signed by Dr. Stewart Peters,who is very closely associated with Bruno and with this Government. What role is he playing in it?

He is also asking for people to send their names in, people who are interested in these jobs. The whole thing seems to be confused at the ~ment, so why not let Canada Manpower have it? The Government of Canada, the taxpayers,are spending millions of dollars to set up canada Manpower; why does the Newfoundland Government have to stick its finger into it? And will people be processed along political lines? That is the danger in sending your name to the Newfoundland Government; if you are a Liberal you will not get a job, if you are a Tory you are guaranteed to get a job. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.

Ottenheimer) MR. S. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please~ Turn the whole thing over to canada Manpower and let them handle it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! First of all I wish to point out that when I call order I wish han. members to take their seats and to stop speaking. The point I was to make was that the questionscan not get into debates, Han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I understood that the way we operate around this Province that if an employer wants to put an ad in the paper asking individuals if they want a job 1532

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 608 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: or not that they could do it. I did not know that we had come to the point in this Province where a private business could not put an ad in the paper to advertise for people to go to work here there or some­ where else. So I see no conflict in the fact that the Crosbie group of companies or one or two of their companies want to advertise fbr employees. MR. NEARY: There is s ti 11 a bi q connection between the i ndi vidual and this government.

PREMIER PECKFORD: On the question of why the Newfoundland Government is involved in hiring, the Repartment of Labour and Manpower wants to get a full - you know 1 we have a responsi b ility too.as a provincial government, to get a record of the number of Newfoundlanders who are not only interested in the offshore 1 but the amount of training they have and so on and to re-enforce and to ensure that Newfoundlanders get __ <!: __ first crack at a lot of those opportunities. And no doubt,all of these people who - MR. NEARY: Could not Canada Manpower do that? PREMIER PECKFORD: answer the question. Mr.

Speaker, I am trying to MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: I would like to have silence. No doubt all the individuals who are putting their names into the Provincial Department of Labour and Manpower have already registered with Canada Manpower and all we are trying to do is to re-enforce the efforts that are being made by Canada Manpower to ensure that Newfoundlanders are involved. And if the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) wants to see that list, Mr. - I forget his name; a young man. AN HON. MEMBER: Langdon. - 1533

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 608 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Langdon. No, that is the Assistant Deputy Minister. There is a Mr. - AN HON. ~1BER: Clarke. PREMIER PECKFORD: - Rupert Clarke who handles the names. There is no polit _ical interference, and if a list of all the names are in now, if the hon. member wants them he can get them. He can call up Mr. Clarke or he can go down to his office and so on. MR. NEARY! How about the minister? The minister can - MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER) : Order, please! Order, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. MARSHALL: Motion 1, Committee of Supply.

On motion,that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, before we get into Committee of Supply, the hon. the Premier has a copy of the telegram in connection with Canadian National that he was referring to a few moments ago. He would like to read it and I was wondering if perhaps - it is a little bit not in order for him to read.it in the Committee-but perhaps with the consent of the Committee we might allow the Premier to read it. MR. NEARY: a copy of it. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: telegram from you? MR. MARSHALL: of the Premier.

PRErHER PECKFORD: I thought we were going to get Yes. I just got it here now. What is it anyway? Is it a It is a telegram from the Office It is a telegram from me to 1534

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 608 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Lang in response to initiatives in the last twenty-four hours as it relates to CNR. MR. NEARY: Yes~boy. Go ahead. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to put in the record for this day, because I think it is very important, initiatives that have been taken NM - 3 in the last two or three days by CNR and the federal government as it relates to the CN rail and bus transportation in this Province that concerns this government a lot. I have a meeting in a few minutes with Dr. Bandeen and some of his people who have arrived.

What has happened is that on Tuesday of this week the Office of the Premier here in the Province was notified that Mr. Bandeen would like to see me today tq gp~9ver some new announcements that he had. l~e did get a little bit of information yesterday out of Mr. Bandeen's office concerning the announcement, but 'there was very little consultation. Therefore, last night and this morning we were very surprised to hear announcements on the radio and in the media from Mr. Jamieson's office and Mr. Lang's office. In response to all of this I have sent this telegram this morning to Mr. Lang to express my displeasure.

As a matter of fact,the press conference was due to be held in the Cabinet room downstairs which I cancelled this morning tci signi .fy in a tangible way my displeasure with the way this whole thing was handled. In any case let me read into the record the telegram that I have sent Mr. Lang this morning. This was compiled quickly so one will have to excuse any grammatical errors. 1.535

~1arch 30 , 1979 Tape No. 608 NM - 4 PRID-IIER PECKFORD : " I ha ve to express my dJ.spleasure t-lith the handling of the new initiatives be ing undertaken by CN in our Provin~e . On Tuesday of this week my of!ice was contacted by CN informing me that Mr . Bandeen wished to meet with me and inform me of new init .iative s that CN intended to ta~e in Newfoundland . I was concerned about these new initiatives since it was ~~e first time the government had heard that new moves were imminent. Additionally , the government was surprised since no meaningful consultation had occurred .

A meeting of the Federa l /Provincial Review Conmittee on the Sulliva n Commis s ion was held on January 16th., when ; . 1.536

March 30, 1979 Tape 609 PK - l Premier Peckford: t. he general aims and objectives for CN were tabled by the federal government. "o discussion occurred at this meeting relative to the establishment of a Newfoundland Division of CN. Therefore)no consulation has occurred on this matter, although such is hinted at in the CN news release. "In the meeting of January l6,the federal co-Chairman indicated that you would be writing the Premier of Newfoundland concerninn. the direction that you saw for the Newfoundland Railway "-this is to Mr.

Lang, that is why I paused there.I got confused as to whom I was sending the· telegram - 11 No such communication has been received. I also understand that the Railway Union has not been consulted in this matter. I do not believe that a real effort to assist the Newfoundland Railway can be achieved unless all parties affected are involved in new policies before they become a reality. While I welcome the establishment of a Newfoundland Division of CN in Newfoundland, and the appointment of Mr. Messenge~ the major issues at stake have still not been addressed in the view of the Newfoundland Government.

These are, (1) a commitment by the federal government that the Newfoundland Railway will stay not for five years,but permanently. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: Number (2), agreement that the user·pay concept is not appropriate and will not apply to CN's operation in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Number (3), agreement that the level of service provided by CN will not fall below that which existed in 1977 and that every attempt will be made to improve the service above 1977 1 eve 1 s. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PW1IER PECKFORD: And number (4), agreement that the level of employment in CN'soperations be stablized at 1977 levels. " This is the telegram that I wanted to read into the record and the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), the Opposition House 1537

March 30, 1979 Tape 509 PK - 2 Premier Peckford: Leader,! know with his interest in CN matters in the Port aux Basques area, would have wanted me to put this into the record today to give him an opportunity to respond as well on this very important matter 1 one which concerns the transportation system in Newfoundland to a great degree. I wanted to read this into the record so that before I left to go to meet with Mr. Sandeen the House would be aware of it, and the Opposition members would have a chance to respond. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I am completely amazed and shocked, as I am sure all other members of this han. House are,at the childish behaviour and the childish attitude of the Premier and his government on one of the most important and significant changes that have been made in CN in this Province since Confederation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this crowd talk about prior consultation. Well, Sir, did the Minister of Fisheries before he announced a. superport for Harbour Grace,did he have prior consultation with the Government of Canada? MR. SIMMONS: Not on your life. MR. WHITE: No. · Not on your 1 if e.

MR. NEARY: Did the former Premier when - MR. MORGAN: A CN spokesman (inaudible) in the House. MR. NEARY: Did the former Premier when he was out in Corner Brook announcina a harbour development that could - !..!!MR.!.:._M~O~R~GA!o!;!N;!;;O: ~---"(~Inaudible) for CNR. MR. NEARY: - announcing a harbour development 7 ~ia he consult with the Government. of Canada? Does this government consult ~o~it.f, the Government of Canada on any project? MR. WHITE: No) not on your 1 ife. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, they do not. They do not. And now, Mr. Chairman, because the han. Don Jamieson and the han. Otto Lang 1538

March 30, 1979 Tape 609 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: make one of the most important changes in CN - SOME HON. MEMBERS: H~ar, hear! MR. NEARY: - in the whole history of its operation in this Province7 because they did not hold prior consultation with the new Premier and his Cabinet they sulk and act like crybabies, and that is a pity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: That is a pity, Mr. Chairman. That is a pity, Sir. That is a pity. Mr. Chairman, that is a pity. Because what this government should be doing is getting behind CN now in this announcement that they have made. The unions are behindiit. MR.

MORGAN: Oh, yes. MR. NEARY: Everybody. Every man, woman, and child in Newfoundland will welcome this decision except the new Premier and his Caninet. MR. WHITE: MR. NEARY: Ottawa. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: He did not get a chance to announce it. Because they did not get a chance to upstage Hear, hear! They have been following a policy here for the last six or seven years now of making announcements and then going to .Ottawa with hat in hand asking them to support the projects that they announce. MR. SIMMONS: MR. NEARY: Jamieson finally beat them at their own game. Oh, yes. That is right. So anyway, Mr.

Speaker, we on this > . 1539

~arch 30, 1979 Tap e 610 EC - 1 :-IR. ~EARY: side of the House, Sir, we welcome, Sir, a separate division of CN to operate the railway in this Province and to O?erate CN Marine. That is what we have been fighting for for years. SOME RON. MEMBERS: :1R. N!:ARY: Hear, hear! We also welcome the announcement by Mr. Lan~ tnat the train service is going to be restored to seven days a week. That was done with prior consultation with the unions, especially the unions in Bishop's Falls. CN is on the upgrade in this Province. I know what is worrying the hon. gentlemen.

The hon. gentlemen on the opposite side of the House have not been able to get their priorities straight. MR. MORGAN: HR. NEARY: It is the election gimmick fever. They have not been able to get their priorities straightened out. The Government of Canada said to this government several weeks or several months ago, 'Tell us the order of priority that you want the Canadian National Railways in Newfoundland, where you want it in order of priority.' And they did not get an answer from this government.

Well, Sir, we want it to have equal status with the Trans-Canada Highway and if there is X amount of money going to be spent in Newfoundland on transportation then this government should be the ones to tell the Government of Canada how and where it is going to be spent. And the railway will play a rrominent role as a mode of transportation in this Province in the future. It is on its way bac k . And this crowd, Sir, seems to resent the fact that it is bouncin~ back. l'-c< i:-ION . HEMBER: ~ 1R. :< EAR Y : Hear, hear!

It is on the way back and th e thing tha t wi ll b r ing it ba c k is the sh ort age of en e rgy in t h e worl d - fossi l fue l . I ca n fo r es ee th e day ten years . . 1540

:·larch 30, 1979 Tape 610 EC - 2 :·lR. :;:SARY: from now that we will have electric trains going back and forth across this Province if we can get a change of government and get the Lower Churchill developed and bring some of the power down here, some of the electricity down here to the Island of 3ewfoundland, bring it down and have electric trains 80ing back and forth across this Province. So, Sir, it is a good move. lv e welcome it. lfe say to CN and the Government of Canada, at long last it is on the right track.

They have agreed to what the unions asked for and what the people of this Province wanted, and I am sorry, Sir, to see that the ~ew Premier and the ~ewfoundland Government are sulking a~a behaving like crybabies because they were not advised in advance of the Government of Canada making the announcement. This is a federal matter, not a provincial matter. What does this crowd want to do? Do they want to run the North American continent? They cannot even run a bullseye shop. HR. MORGAN: You want to run the (inaudible) every day here in the House.

MR. :-:lEARY: The Government of Canada had every right to make that decision and the ministers who made the decision had every right to make that decision. And we welcome it, Sir. It is going to be a good thing for the railway in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: i-!R. CHAIRHAN: (Mr. Cross) MR. NEARY: HP... CHAIRMAN: :·!R. !lEARY: Hear, hear! Committee of Supply. Mr. Chairman. The bon. Opposition House Leader.

Sir , we are now back on the Interim Supply Bill, and my few remarks a couple of mo~ents ago were just merely a warm-up to some of the things that I have to say about the government coming into this House and asking the House to approve three months supply amounting .. 1541.

:brch 30, 1979 Tape 610 EC - 3 ~R . ~EARY: to $354 million. 9ow, Sir, I do not know if ho n. g entlemen are a~are of it or not - it is not unusual to come in, I suppose, for a government to come in and ask for two or three months inte rim supply, but it is unusual, M:. Chairman, for the gove rnment to come in and ask for $354 million, which is the biggest amount ever asked for in the whole history of this Province. That is one aspect o= it that is significant. And the other significant thing about the $354 million Interim Supply Bill, Sir, is that it includes Capital Works projects.

To my knowledge it is the first time since Confederation that an Interim Supply Bill included Capital Works projects money - the first time. Usually an Interim Supply Bill is requested by the government to defray expenses in the Public Service of a housekeeping nature. So that makes this bill different in two ways. Fiist of all, it is the largest amount of interim supply ever asked for by a governmen t in this Province, and number two, it includes a substan t ial amount of money for Capital Works. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance (OT.

Collins) made no reference at all to what these Capital Works programmes are going to be . Obviously, Sir, the government is gea ring up for an election and they have included in the Interim Supply Bill, t he $354 mill ion, 1542

March 30,1979 Tape No. 611 AH-1 MR. NEARY: some Capital Works Projects that they can get under way in the event that the new Premier decided to call a Provincial General Election before a budget is brought dawn. But, Sir, I think in all fairness to the House and to the people of this Province we should know what, we should have a list of these Capital Works Projects.

The Minister of Finance yesterday would make no commitment to my colleague, the official Opposition spokesman on finance,would make no commitment as to when the government intends to bring down a budget, the whole thing was left up in the air.And then we were threatened and scolded by the new Government House Leader, we were told that if the House behaves itself, if everybody is a good little boy and a good little girl and the House is meeting next week or the week after or the following week~then we may bring down a budget, we may bring down a budget.

Sir, that answer is not good enough, we have to have a commitment from the government as to when, Give us the time frame as to when the government expects to bring down its budget. Or does it expect to bring down a budget at all? Or is this it? Is this it now? Three months Interim Supply, $354 million could tide the government over until sometime up in June or July and by that time they could have an election over without bringing down a budget.

If the new Premier intends doing that, Sir, then I would submit to this House and to the people of this Province that he would not be acting in good faith, that it would be one of the most cowardly things that the new Premier could do, to go to the country without brL~ging down a budget. We have already stated Mr. Chairman, both inside and outside of thi.<; House that it is our intention, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to co-operate with the new Pemier in every respect.

We understand, Sir, we understand that the bon. gentleman has a very difficult task ahead J we understand that the hon. fremier, the new Premier, has a very difficult job to clean up the mess that he inherited from the former Premier~ we understand, Mr. Chairman, the bad blood that exists .. . 1543

~rch 30,1979 Tape No. 611 AH-2 !'R. NEARY: as a result of the Tory party just coming through a leadership convention 7 we understand that the present Minister of Mines and Energy every da~ probably~ looks at the new Premier very resentful, with a jaundiced eye, wishing that it was he who was standing there answering the questions and making the statements on behalf of the government, We understand that, human nature being what it is, Sir, we unda~stand, Sir, that there is savage resentment in the heart of the Minister of Fisheries towards the new Premier. We understand all that so, Mr.

Chairman, what I am saying is that the new Premier's difficulties and his problems and his troubles will not emanate from this side of the House because we intend to co-operate as much as we can within reason with the hon. gentleman. His trouble,! am afraid,will be on that side of the House and not over here, so there is no need really, there is no urgency, there is no need to go to the country. I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, though,before I say that, that we were never as prepared -I am talking about the Liberal party in case the hen, gentie~--;:t=.~~ think that I · ~ being wishv-ashy and ~eak about this, I am trying to be statesman like about it and so is the Liberal party- we were __ l}~e_~ ~~ prepared for an election as we are at the present time. We have more candidates named now than we did prior to the 1975 or any other election in our whole history. We are ready for an election and we would welcome it.

We would welcome it. 'but is that the thing to do to the people of this Province force an election on them when it is not necessary, when the government's mandate~can go until the Fall of 1980? Now if that is what they want, Sir, well let us have it. If that is what they are trying to do, play little political games, oneupmanship, coming into the Rouse and making these childish and nasty statements about, "Oh,ifthe Rouse functions properly well then there will be a budget;' threatening the Opposition, playing games with the Opposition, 1544

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 612 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: being nasty and rude, interrupting the Opposition in attempting to carry out its duties in this House. Now if that is what they want to do, Sir, if they are going to continue -to play these political games, to be nasty and rude, then I would say call the election, clear the air and get it over with.

If that is the kind of a game they are going to play, a political game of oneupman­ ship with the people's money and with the people of this Province, if that is the kind of a game they are going to play then I would say they would be very irresponsible and their behaviour, Sir, will not get the good will of the people of this Province. Because what the people want right now, they want good government, they want a government that will come to grips with the problems that are facing the ordinary people of this Province and I will talk about some of the problems shortly. So what I am saying, Mr.

Chairman, and what my colleague said yesterday, if this is the budget, the Interim Supply Bill is it, that is it, well then let us call it off, and let us go out and have an election and clear the air. But if there is going to be a budget 7 give us some time frame of when we can expect that budget to be br~ug~t down and then everybody can relax. Nobody will have the election jitters~ we can all relax and get down, take off our coats and roll up our sleeves and get down to doing the business of this Province and let us see how my hon. friend can govern this Province. Newfoundlanders, Mr.

Chairman, are a fair minded group of people who believe in British justice and we in the Opposition subscribe to that philosophy and we are prepared to give the hon. gentleman a chance. We are prepared to give him a few weeks, take six months if he wants to, to show the people of this Province how he can govern ' . 1545

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 612 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: the Province. That is what everybody wants. Nobody wants an election. I would say if you polled the Tory Party right now ygu _ would probably end up fifty-fifty! Fifty per cent would say, "Yes, you should have gone the day after the leadership;" the other fifty per cent would say, "No, hang her down for a while and show the people what you can do." Now I realize there is a bit of a gamble involved in that too. If you polled the Liberal Party you would probably get the same thing, fifty­ fifty.

Fifty would want an election right away and fifty per cent would say, "Well 1 no, just take it easy." The other fifty per cent would say, "Leave them alone and let them hang themselves." Or, "Leave them alone and let us see how they can govern and maybe they will be the best thing that ever happened to Newfoundland: 1 But I would bet you if you polled the people throughout the Province, in every district in this Province, at this present time, at this moment, everybody but -~\lerybody would say. "Give the bon. gentleman a chance. Do not jump on him.

Give him a chance." Well, Sir, we have no intention of jumping on him. We are quite prepared to give him a chance. We are prepared to co-operate and we are prepared to give the government their housekeeping money. We are quite prepared to give the government sufficient money to pay civil servants and to pay social assistance recipients and to pay the routine bills. We are prepared to do that, but we think, Mr. Chairman, that the government is being very unreasonable to come in and ask for $354 million without giving us any details at all,.without giving us a list of 1546

~larch 30, 1979 Tape No . 612 NM - 3 ~1R . NEA.~Y: the capital works projects . ~'le think this is too much money , too much to give the government when,as I say, Sir, and I can speak personally and I think I can speak for my colleagues, that we want to see what ~his hon . gentleman can do . We want to see if he has it in him, if he is as good a man as he said he was when he was on the campaign trail, if he is a better man than my hon. friend, and that I doubt, I have my own reservations about that .

I think if I was in the Tory Convention, and I had to cast a vot e, as much as I like my old friend the Minister of Fisheries,whom I think could have !Jiven the Liberals more trouble than any other candidate in an elec tion, could have given us more trouble in a provincial general election than anybody else on that side, as much as I like my hon. friend, as much as we get along well together, ,. . . 1547

.r..~. '!.:\RCH 30 , 1 ~ 79 TAPF NO. 613 nw - 1 YR. S. NEARY : and once a colleague of mine I had the greatest respect for the hon. gentleman, ~s much as I detest the way they smeared the hon. gentleman during the campaign by saying that he was paid off by the bi g fish companies,and I know I was once the brunt of that kind of smear myself. As much as I detest that 1and I do not think for one moment - if the bon. gentleman got $100 from the big multi-nationals, the big fish companies,! do not think for one moment that the fish companies own my hon. friend.

Although I will say this ,' I do not agree with the hon. gentleman's policy and his philosophy,! think he is catering too much to the big fish companies - but I do not think for one moment, Sir, and I think it was wrong for his colleagues to smear him the way they did during that leadership convention, ~s much as I like the hon. gentleman and as much as I like the present Premier,I like to see a man come up by his boot straps,but I think, Sir, having said all of that thet the most able man, and I believe I would have; if I had been there, cast my ballot for the hon.

Minister of ~Unes and Energy) the most able of them all• MR. DOODY: you spread it around. That is probably what happened to me · ' MR. S. NEARY: No, Sir, I did not spread it around at all. I did not spread it around. No, I do not remember spreading it around . I only made one statement during the leadership and that was not public,! said it to a crowd of people and I said it in this House and I will say it outside this House,but I believe the hon. gentleman has been in bad company of late because the hon. ~entleman has started now to play his little political games.

The hon. gentleman was the only man in the former administration who would give us a straight, honest answer. I said that inside the House, I said it outside the House and I still say it, except I am beginning to have doubts in the last couple of days about the gentleman. If . 1.548

~!arch 30, 1979 Tape No. 613 DW- 2 '~. S . !'lEARY: I were the hon. gentleman I would not start playing games. It is not all over yet, not all over yet. ~IR. DOODY: What are you talking about now? MR.. S. :<EARY: I am talkingc about the question the hon. gentleman just put to me that may be his reason for losing the leadership. The reason the hon. gentleman lost the leadership I will tell him why in case he does not know. MR. RlDEOtrr: MR. S. NEARY: enough votes. He did not get enough votes.

No, Sir, that is right he did not get The reason he did not get enough votes was because there was the Moores faction versuS the Tory St. John's East cocktail set. That was the battle, Sir. The battle was between the St. John's East Tories headed by the present aouse Leader of the House of Assembly taking on Moores and his crowd and taking ' great delight in beating them and then going out after and boasting about it. The present House Leader and his crowd beat the charming Mr. Moores and his crowd. That is what happened, my friend,in case the hon. gentleman does not know. That is what happened.

And then they went out and laughed and gloated about it and that is why the new Premier has cuddled up to the hon. gentleman there for St. John's East (Ur. !o!.arshall). I think the hon. the Premier has made one of the most colossal blunders. Yes, Sir, he has made a colossal blunder in putting the power of his Cabinet back into the hands of the St. John's cocktail set. My hon. friend is from St. John's., I realize that , and would have given us lots of ammunition going around the Province to say we have a St, John's Premier. lt would not have been very difficult.

But now, Sir, we can go around this Province and say that the power of the Tory Party is back in the hands of the well-to-do, the well-heeled St. John's cocktail set. All you have to do is look to the Premier's right. Look to his right! Who are his chief lieutenants and his advisors? Just look to the right. The Minister of Finance - I think that will be a mistake , That will turn out to be a mistake . to have an inexperienced St. John's . 1549

!·1a rch' 30 1!179 Tape No. 613 D~T- 3 ~'R. S . NEARY: doctor as ~.inister of Finance. Maybe the hon. gentleman did it out of desperation. There was some talk he was going to bring people in off the street, ~!r. Leo Barry,another old buddy of mine, a !1lail that I like very much, some talk he was going to bring him into the Cabinet, S'Ome talk he was going to bring in Mr. Cabot Uartiu. I do not know who Mr. Martin is speaking for these days~ whether its Newfoundland Hydro_,. whether its Nordco or himself.! do not know who ~e is speaking for.

I was surprised recently to hear that he was silenced, he was not allowed to go down aDd make h:1.s annual political speech to Rotary. He was silenced. It is too bad the Premier did not silence Mr. Vic Young yesterday, but maybe it was a desperation move,maybe the Premier had no choice, maybe . 1550

~larch 30, 1979 Tape 614 EC - 1 ~!R. ~EARY : he could not get some of his colleagues to agree to serve in the Cabinet. But anyway, be that as it may, Sir, I think now we have a Cabinet comprising of the influential St. John's cocktail set that will have a strangle hold on the new Premier, and in addition to that - MR. MORGAN: ~R. NEARY: Ah!

My hon. friend says, 'Ah! 1 In addition to that we have the campaign managers and the backroom boys who defeated the Siamese twin there now, the backroom boys comprising of the elite in the St.John's cocktail set, and they are the ones who will decide the election; they are the ones who will decide the direction of this government. And I know who some of them are. :Iy hon. friend knows full well that I know who they are. They are out now - you should hear what they are saying now. They are telling the new Premier what to do. They are decidingilie strategy, they are deciding the election.

It is all being decided now over a few drinks. The future of the people of this Province is now being decided over a few drinks in the cabarets and the bistros of this city. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). UR. NEARY: laughs at that. thinks. AN RON~ HEMBER : :1R. NEARY : Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman That is not as funny as the han. gentleman It sounds funny. It sounds funny? Yes, it sounds funny. It is almost - you would not believe it if you did not hear it. Mr.

Chairman, getting back, Sir, to my main point, my main point is this, Sir, that we are prepared on this side of the House to co-operate with the government within reason, with the new Premier, give him a .. - 1551.

:larch 30, 1979 Tape 614 EC - 2 ~lR. NEARY: chance to see what he can do, but we are not prepared to co-operate to the tune of $354 million. And, Mr. Chairman, before I carry on, Sir, with my few remarks of why I do not think the government should be given $354 million carte blanche by this hon. House, because of their reputation of the past, because of their mismanagement, because, Mr.

Chairman, of the Auditor General's report just tabled in this House, the worst Auditor General's report, the worst condemnation of a government in about twenty-five years in this Province, because, Sir, the government have not outlined their plans for the future to tell us how they are going to deal with the fishery, how they are going to deal with unemployment, the cost of electricity, the cost of food in this Province, because there is no programme before the House, because the ministers are new in their positions, Sir, inexperienced and immature, a lot of them, and incompetent- and I could go on and give a hundred reasons, Sir, why we should not give this government $354 million without having some control on it.

I would like to move an amendment, Sir, and add the following words to the resolution, the amendment seconded by my han. friend, the member for Lewisporte (Mr. F. 1.Jhite) "That this $354,120,000 hP. divided into equal monthly amounts of $118,040,000 so that the House of Assembly in legislative session will be given an opportunity after each thirty day period to decide whether or not a second or even a third instalment is necessary or justified. This procedure would be followed until the total amount of the bill is exhausted or a Budget brought uown, whichever comes first!' MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr.

Chairman. That amendment is totally and completely out of order. 1552

~!arch 3 0 , 19 7 9 Tape 614 EC - 3 :·!R. :!ARSHALL ; The principles with respect to amendment of legislation or amendment of a bill is that you cannot bring in an amendment which is going to completely negate the bill. ~ow, the bill before this Committee and the bill being considered, the resolution before this Committee, '. 1553

Marcil 30, 1979 Tape 615 SD-1 MR. W. MARSHALL: is to provide $330 millior or $340 million of Interim Supply, To make an amendment of that nature would be to put strings on the supply itself. In other words, we ask for $340 million of supply for approximately two and one half months 7and to provide that we have to come back next month and the month after would really 1 in effect 1 negate the effectiveness of this Committee and would negate the resolution which we are considering, so I submit to Your Honour that the amendment is entirely out of order. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, obviously, Sir, the han.

Chairman realizes that the Government House Leader made a very weak. cas~ original bill. This motion, this amendment does not negate the The han, gentleman was quite right) it adds strings; but it does not negate the original motion. No, Sir, it does not. ;~1 it does, Sir, if it is passed is to force the Government to come back to the House a month from now, give us a report on how they spent the first installment then we will review it and approve the second installment and the third and so on.

That is all we are asking for, Sir, a report to the House, It- does not negate the original motion in any way, shape or form, Sir, -· · _-·I might point out for the benefit of Your Honour that it is perfectly in order, perfectly in order to move a reduction in amounts of money that the Government asks for. That is perfectly in order, it is always in order, it is traditional in the British Parliament, Sir, the British Parliamentary system. MR. WHITE: We are not even doing that. MR. S, NEARY: We are not even doing that, we are not even reducing the amount, Mr.

Chairman, but if we did we would be in order, The only thing you can not do in Committee of the Whole or when estimates are being discussed, you can not increase Government expenditure.But you can decrease or you can place strings on the money the Government is asking for, so I would submit to Your Honour that the amendment is 100 per cent in order, . - 1554

March 30, 1979 Tape 615 SD-2 MR. lol. MARSHALL : }~. Chairman, look, it obviously negates the whole purpose of Supply and it negates this motion. What we have asked is for the Committee of Supply to grant to the Government $330 million or $340 million. What this motion does .. it says that the Committee of Supply cannot give the $330 million or $340 million but it must come back and reconstitute itself.So, therefore,it obviously does.

I know Your Honour is new to the Chair but I mean this is an accepte~ - I think the House Leader on the Opposition side has already indicated, anyway, it is an accepted principle that you cannot have a motion that negates ·• an amendment that negates the main motion which this quite obviously does. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. member for Trinity- Mr. Chairman, I think it is quite clear, from experien~~ over the last few years, that indeed amendments have been moved relating to expenditure of Government money at the Committee stage.

I would like to remind the Chairman and the Committee of two examples: one year back in -let us see, the Government was first elected-in 1974J the Minister of Education's salary was reduced to the minimum wage: hourly rate :and was, in fact, passed. No, it was not passed at that particular time. AN HON. MEMBEF : That is different. MR. F. ROWE: No, it is not different, Mr. Chairman. Last year an amendment was made whereby the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture's salary was reduced to one dollar, I believe. MR. S. NEARY: That is right. MR. F.

ROWE : This amendment does not even go that far, there is no reduction of any expenditures whatsoever, It simply asks that government be held accountable, held accountable, 1555

. ,. >la.:rcll 31), 1979 Tap e 515 SD-3 MR. F. ROWE: for the u:penditure of its ~ey on a monthly basis. Ther.e is no :reduction in the amouut whatsoever. There is no negation of anythiag• no negation of anythiag, so, Sir. I th:illk the amendment is perfec.tly ia order. It also gives the Government an opportunity to bring down a Budget, which is the most important thing of all., In fact, this amendment is a very positive amendment, Sir, It does alter, obviously, the motion before the floor. MR. S, NEARY: Slightly, MR. F. ROWE: Sligh tly, ever so s lightly.

I mi.ght emphasize that, very, very slightly, They can expend the same amount of money exactly, they are simply beiag asked to be held accoUntable on a monthly basis aud have been given the opportunity to bring down the Budget . . 1556

~1arch 30, 1979 Tape No. 616 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: here which is a very positive suggestion. There is no negation whatsoever in this amendment therefore, Mr. Chairman, it is perfectly in order. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): Order, please! I have heard some argument from both to my left and to my right. I will recess for five minutes to make a ruling. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): Order, please! I am ready to make a ruling on that amendment. First I would like to read from Beauchesne, page 233,

section C?l ;· and Beauchesne page 233, section (7) reads: "An amendment is out of order if it imposes a charge upon the Public Treasury, if it extends the objects and purpose~, or relaxes the conditions and qualifications as expressed in the Royal Recommendation." I would also like to read from the Journals of the House of Commons, June 17th., 1969, Page 1172, and I read; "I bring to his attention that not only cannot the total amount of the expenditure be changed by a motion such as this, but the objects, purposes, conditions and qualifications of the moneys authorized by the recommendation of His Excellency cannot be changed." Now;there is no doubt that this is a Royal Recommendation, because I have before me the message from His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor, and I will conclude my ruling by reading again,Beauchesne 181.

MR. SIMMONS: Is that the page number or paragraph? MR. CHAIRMAN: Paragraph 540. That is page 181, paragraph 540. "The guiding principle in determining the effect of an amendment upon the financial initiative of the Crown is that the communication, to which the Royal Recommendation is attached, must be treated as 1557

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 616 NM - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS) : laying down once and for all (unless withdrawn and replaced) not only the amount of the charge, but also its objects, purposes, conditions and qualifications. n So all of these citings certainly rule the amendment out of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, you are quoting from the newer edition1 MR. CHAIRMAN: This is the Fifth Edition of Beauchesne. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if that amendment is not in order perhaps I will try another one. Or is any amendment in order, Mr. Chairman? Could Your Honour tell us if an amendment is in order at all? MR.

CHAIRMAN: I know that that is a hypothetical question,really 7 and a ruling of the Speaker or Chairman cannot be challenged. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I move the following amendment, .. that the amount of $354,120,000 be reduced to $118,040,000 to cover expenses for a period not to exceed thirty days·" MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, that amendment can be ruled out,I would submit, Your Honour, by the same basis of the authorities that you have written and you have referred to which clearly show that a Royal Recorrrilendation, which this resolution is, cannot be reduced .b-\lt must be voted in total.

I think the authority that you have a 1 ready quoted, Your Honour, answered the question. SOME HON. MH1B ERS: Oh, oh! .. 1558

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 617 AH-1 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Cross) Order, please! I do not think there is need for a recess this time. The citings that were made rega·rding the first amendment, I think, rules out the second as well.

"An Amendment is out of order if it imposes a charge upon the Public Treasury, if it extends the objects and purposes, or relaxes the conditions and qualifications as expressed in the Royal Recor.mendation." On paragraph 540 again, page 181 of the Fifth Edition of Beauchesne reading from the top of page - possibly should read it all again for the simple reason that there is no full stop·or sentence there, "The guiding principle in determining the effect of an amendment upon the financial initiative of the Crown is that the communication, to which the Royal Recommendation is attached, must be treated as laying down once and for all (unless withdrawn and replaced) not only the amount of the crarge, but also its objects, purposes, conditions and qualifications." therefore rule the second amendment presented by the hon.

Opposition House Leader as out of order. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In order to continue my few remarks, Sir. DR. COLLINS: I do not think the Chairman has recognized the hon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: Oh, the Chairman has. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, can I just bring up a point of explanation? MR. NEARY: Sit down! Sit down~ MR. F. ROWE: There is no such thing as a point of explanation. MR. NEARY: The Chairman is making a ruling. Is Your Honour finished with his ruling? MR. CHAIRMAN: I am finished with the ruling. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to move the following amendment. believe, Sir, the problem with the first amendment that I made was that it included amounts of money and believe this amendment that I am making now, Sir,will be in order because there is already a precedent for it in the Parliament of Quebec. Add, Mr. Chairman, the following \'lOrds, "Provided the government's authority to expend these monies does not extend beyond April 30, 1979 until further approval of this House." That would be perfectly in order, Mr. Chairman. It does not specify .. - 1559

~arch 30,1979 Tape No. 617 AH-2 ~. NEARY: the amount, it does not reduce the amount. And when Your Honour.is talking about stating objectives Your Honour is talking about the Minister of Finance telling us how the money is going to be spent and that is exactly what we are trying to find out. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Chairman, that is exactly in substance the self same amendment that was moved the first time and the second time. It is going to negate what Your Honour refers to as a Roval Recommendation. It is going to negate the Royal Recommendation and it is going to - you know,it changes the character of it.

The answer is exactly the same. Now you know we have a Supply Bill , a ~esolution here before the committee~and that resolution,hopefully~is going to pass in the very near future because the government obviously needs supply by ~arch 31st. But the fact of the matter is I do not see any point, Your Honour, in continuing on in this vein. I mean~this is the third amendment in a row that has been proposed and it really ~ what they constitute are really just reiterations of exactly the same proposition that Your Honour has already ruled on. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. Mr.

Chairman, the last comments of the hon. House Leader,of course,should be treated with the disdain 1560

~1arch 30, 1979 Tape 618 PK - l Mr. Si11111ons: they certainly deserve. We have every right , Mr. Chairman, to make amendments. Our problem is that we are not parliamentary experts, and we may well on occasion,as we have done twice so far this morning,submit amendments which do not fall within the purview of the Chairman's prerogative to accept,or to accept ~lithin the rules of parliamentary procedure. What we are attempting to do, and if it takes fifteen attempts, Mr.

Chairman, we give notice we will make fifteen or twenty attempts to do iti what 1~e want to do is to see to it that this government does not go on an uncontrolled spending spree without a budget. And I submit that the amendment now before the Chair is one which iseminently sensible without in any way abrogating the request from the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council or the Lieutenant Governor . It does not abrogg.te or restrict that in any way. It does not address itself to the dollar amount at all. The motion as it would be amended would allow for the full amount of $354 million to be approved by this House.

The amendment would do one thing and one thing only7 it would ensure that the government's authority to spend that amount of money would be for a time definite, for a time definite expiring on April 30, at which time, or before which time the government would be obliged to come back to the House for further authority to expend beyond that time definite. I submit, Mr.

Chairman, that the amendment satisfies the objectives of the resolution beuore the House-or before the Committee, and at the same time it satisfies our particular objective of wanting to put some kind of a rein on this government and make it realize, Mr. Chairman, make it realize that it does have a responsibility 7 if it is going to administer the Province's affairs into the new fiscal year,to have a budget to do it with. And we can understand that they need some time to get the budget ready, but they do not need licence, Mr. Chairman, they do not need an unlimited time. And we submit (

l) that a month is time enough; and if experience shows . . 1561

March 30, 1979 Tape 618 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: that a month is not quite time enough, we have even indicated in our amendment that we are prepared to consider further time. So let us do it a bit at a time, a month at a time, which we think is reasonable. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): To that third amendment that nas been presented by the hen. Opposition House Leader. Again I would refer back to one of my initial citings 1 that of the Journals of the House of Commons1 referred to in Beauchesne,of June 17, 1969 on page 1173. I would like to read it and then make an effort to explain it.

I think it is very clear as it stands. "And I bring to his attention that not only cannot the total amount of the expenditure be changed by a mot~on such as this but the objects, purposes, conditions, and qualffications of the money authorized by the recommendation of His Excellency cannot be changed." Here in this third amendment we are not talking of changing money but we are talking of changing dates for a month and not three. And I feel that that is on~ of the conditions in the message from His Excellency that was read in this House only a couple of days ago.

So I will rule the third amendment presented by the hon. Opposition House Leader as out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chainnan, I would like to move- MR. SIMMONS: Speakers hip. MR. NEARY: Now you ~?. ~~..!l_hy we wanted a debate on the Deputy I was following very closely Your Honour's ruling there. Your Honour read out - MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. And this is not something that \~e are going to allow in this House. The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) made an unfortunate comment that was heard in the Chamber about debating on the Deputy Speakership.

I imagine that the hon. member made the comment· in the heat of the moment,or what he presumed to be the heat of the moment , 1562

~!arch 30, 1979 Tape 619 EC - 1 ~!R. c!ARSHALL: but I would submit to Your Honour that the type of comment that was made is not one that can be allowed to be made in this Chamber because at all times the dignity of the Chair and the person in the Chair, whoever he may be, has to be upheld in order that we can maintain any decorum whatsoever in the House. So I would suggest to Your Honour that the unfortunate remark that was made, that the han. member may wish, an~ if he does not wish, should be required to withdraw. HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would assume now, Sir, that I can start off again with my - MR.

CHAIRMAN: (l1r. Cross) Order, please'. this matter cannot be settled in Committee. Order, please! It appears that In reference,just now,to the matter not being able to be settled in Committee. I was referring expressly to the point of order raised by the Government House Leader regarding a member of this han. House casting aspersions upon the Chair. :IR. S E!l10NS : order. Mr. Chairman, to that point of Mr.

Ch~irman, now that we know what the supposed point of order was all about - it was on that point that I was waiting to hear from the Chair, waited at some length, I may add, to find out if the Chair had acknowledged that there was a point of order. And I can now construe from the Chair's latest comments that perhaps the Chair considers there might have been a point of order. If so, I would be pleased to hear from the Chair what point of order has been recognized and what action, if any, the Chair might expect from any member of the House resulting from that poi~t of order: then, I think, and only 1563

:·larch 30, 1979 Tape 61 9 EC - 2 ~l!t. S niHONS: then could we decide whether the matter could be settled in Committee or not. o!R. CHAIRHA!l: (Hr. Cross) Order, please! I did understand the hon. the member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) in his remarks regarding the election of the Deputy Speaker and as to why the Opposition wanted to be informed or wanted debate in the House, and this is what I meant by 'casting aspersions upon the Chair'. SOME !!ON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! !1R. CHAIR HAN: Order, please!

I have ruled that the point of order does exist and I am asking that the hon. the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir retract the remarks that he made. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, for clarification, I have no intention of withdrawing a remark which states that I would like to have had a debate on the matter. There is no need to withdraw that. If Mr. Chairman is asking me to withdraw any suggestion of unfairness or partiality on the part of the Chair, if that is what the numbskull member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) thought I had said a minute ago, I withdraw all that.

I will do anything to cater to his small mind until he understands our problem over here, what our concern is. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: MR. S IMHONS: Mr. Chairman, there was no aspersion cast on the Chair. :1R. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. S I MM O ~S: Am I allowed to withdraw or not? How man y Sp e ak ers do you have? }[R . CHAIRMAN : I want to refer now to another r emar k made by th e hon. the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir . . 1564

~arch 30,1979 Tape No. 620 AH-1 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr.Cross) I believe there are words in Beauchesne that are unparliamentary and I think it is very unfriendly and I think unparliamentary to call another member of the House a n11111bskull. MR.. SIMMONS: I could not agree with you more, Mr. Chairman. I withdraw my reference to the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) as a numbskull. It is a fac:t of life that many realities are unfair when stated. Mr. Chairman, I withdraw also any aspersion to the Chair and in view of the fact that the . member for St.

John's East (Mr.Marshall) raised the matter and misconstrued the full intent of what I was trying to say.or the complete intent of what I was trying to say, just let me say that I feel strongly that the matter of the Chair in this business is so important that it ought to have been debated fully and that was my entire point. He also said that I raised it in the heat of the moment.

Indeed I did, Mr.Chairman, in this context; it is my understanding that when the Chair is hearing argument from both sides he is listening, and I found it somewhat annoying that while I was putting my argument there was a full-scale conference going on on the subject and I do not think Mr. Chairman heard a word I had to say in my submission. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Leader. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The bon. Opposition House Mr.

Chairman, I think I clearly now understand the ruling that Your Honour gave, that reading from Beauchesne there,especially the part. that Your Honour stressed about objectives, purposes and conditions. I think that is the reason why our amendment was not in order. I would like to try again, Sir, try another amendment and I believe this one will be in order. I do not think there is any doubt about that at all because it does not impose any objectives, purposes or conditions or it does not change the resolution in any way, shape or form. 1565

March 30,1979 Tape No. 620 AH-2 XR. ~EARY: The amendment, Sir, is to add these words, "And that a budget be brought down in this hon. House in thirty days or at an earlier date if possible." Now that does not in any way, Shape or form, Sir HR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, Your Honour has already made a ruling that there can be no conditions attached to a Royal Recommendation which is what this committee is now considering.

That clearly constitutes a condition and I would submit that Your Honour's ruling,in effect"has been made in the first instance and these particular amendments that are being proposed are really just,ift · effect~non-acceptance of ¥our Honour's ruling.

It is clear and it is there • The British parliamentary procedure set it down that when we are in Committee of Supply and we are considering money bills. money bills are always considered pursuant to a recommendation of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, pursuant to a message from the Lieutenant-Governor, the representative of the Qaeen1 it is a royal recommendation and consequently it cannot be changed. The hon. members opposite, their prerogative is to vote against it. The government's prerogative is to vote for it, obviously,because it brings it in.

But these amendments of this nature.! suggest, are only delaying the valuable time because,as we all know, there has really to be supply by one o 1 clock today. And we hope with the co-operation of everybody that His Honour will be able to give assent to it by one o'clock today in order to be able to pay the public bills which will be accruing on Monday uext. MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order which the member alleges to have raised: First of all,his last comment again. Therecis no need, Mr.Chairman, for him to mislead the House on his stated need for supply at one o'clock today. That is not the case at all.

That is not the case. The earliest they need it is Tuesday or Wednesday of next week and if they need to they can do what they have been· doing for the last three or four months, use governor's warrants or bring in a budget. That is all we are asking, 1566

March 30,1979 '!'ape No. 620 Ali-3 MR. SIMMONS: l'fr. Cha11:'11182l. Now tne amendment -the -endment., Mr. Chairman, I submit is quite in ord~r. It :L-; qo '!fay abJ:ogates the requirement fl:om the Lieutenant-Governo'l', the ilioney bill we call it. In no way does it restrict the par~ters of that particular resolution .• All it does is places a reqW.rement on ,government quite in &lidition . . 1567

-. March 30, 1979 Tape 621 PK - l Mr. Simmons: to the requirement that would be laid down in the resolution, ~dditional requir~ment that government act on a matter by a certain time, namely the provision or the bringing down of a budget. Now I believe the Committee is being misled into missing the entire point. All the Opposition is asking for is that this government would show us how they intend to spend the public's money in the next year. They call that a budget. And if they cannot have it in three weeks,how about four weeks? Can they give us some indication when they plan to have a budget?

And I repeat and I give notice Jif it takes fifteen or twenty attempts to find the right words then we will try it fifteen or twenty times. What we want to do is to get a commitment from this government that in reasonable time we will have a budget to consider in this House. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to - I am not going to respond to what the hon. gentleman said except in one thing, because it shows an abysmal ignorance by the hon. gentleman of the rules of sujlply. r arri. surprfS~cfthat __ a _person iri_ -the position, financial critic in the Opposition, the alternate government,would make the observation. But I do think it has to be clarified because it is a matter of some seriousness. To everybody's great surprise he talks about the government can use warrants, executive warrants. It is clear, crystal clear in The Financial Administration Act, Mr.

Chairman, that g~vernor'~ . warrants cannot be used wbile the House is in - MR. SIMMONS: \~hy do Y!JU not (in~udible)? MR. MARSHALL: - while the House is in session. MR. SIMMONS: Wni clo you not (inaudible)? MR. MARSHALL: I correct the hon. gentleman because I think it is a matter of public information,it should be known. And I am rather surprised that a person in the position of the putative Finane€ Minister in the next administration, if he should live that long, should make' such an observation. 1568

March 30, 1979 Tape 621 PK - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): Order, please! I will rule on the fourth amendment put forth by the han. Opposition House Leader. Certainly that amendment makes an additional requirement, and because it makes an additional requirement I feel that certainly it is changing the conditions, again, of a Royal Recommendation. _ _ _ MR. SIM!IONS: You remind me of Fred Stagg .now. MR. CHAIRMAN: So I rule that out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman! Mr. Chairman! MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. Opposition House Leader. MR.

NEARY: It looks 1 ike, Sir, we are in a sort of a pred~cament here that we are not going to be able to get the right amendment to - MR. SIMMONS: We will try. MR. NEARY: What we ar~ trying to do - the point we are trying to make here, and I believe, Sir, we have made our point now­ is we are trying to find out from the government if and when they intend to bring down a budget. l~e are trying to get some kind of a time frame of when the government will be bringing a budget into this House, if indeed they will be bringing a budget in at all. And we are trying to control the spending of the government.

We think they are asking for too much -Inte -rim Supply. Too much, Sir. :T_nree months, $354 million is too much to put in the hands of a group of people who have proved over the last si x or seven years that they are not capable of managing the aff c. irs of this Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, we have made our point and we did so, Sir, in the spirit of trying to co-operate with the new Premier.

We feel that the new Premier should have at least one -month's Interim Supply; $118 million -we reall.i.;frid truly and sincerely felt that, Sir~and then come back after a month or so and then we would give him another $118 million or however much he needed for that month, and we could do that for the next three months. Obviously the government is being unreasonable, Sir. They are not prepared to _ 156S

March 30 , 1979 Tape 621 PK - 3 Mr . Near y: co-operate. We are prepared to co-operate. We are prepared to let Interim ~upply go through before 1:00 o'clock today. I think I can speak on behalf of my colleagues and say that if the government ~1ould be reasonable, if the government would agree to reviewing the situat ion after a month, every thirty days, t here would be no problem.

We are auite prepared to co-operate because •11e think , as I said earlier this morning, Sir, that the new Premier should have a chance, h~ should be given an opportunity to show the people of this Province ~that he can do, ~1h e ther it be good or bad. Maybe, Mr. Cha i nnan, our strategy is a 11 1vrong. It cou 1 d work to our detr i~~nt.

The hen. the Premie~ by us giving him a chance and not forcing him into an election, by co-operating, by getting down to the business of the Province,by trying to accommodate t he hon. gentleman, maybe it will work out to our detriment, m~vbe the hen. gentleman wi l l d o such a 1570

~arch 30, 1979 Tape 622 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: tremendous job that we will be annihilated in the next election. We are prepared to take that chance in the interest of the people of this Province, of the ordinary people. We are prepared to gamble. So, Mr. Chairman, personally speaking, I would like to be able to give the han. gentleman a wide berth, but I think it is a mistake to give him $354 million. ~ow, we have no choice as far as I can see but to let it go to a vote and the government will use brute force, they will use their majority to railroad this $354 million through the House before 1:00 P.M. today.

They will railroad it through and give the people of this Province no indication, no commitment at all of when they intend to bring down a Budget, if indeed they are going to bring down a Budget. They have no intention of telling the people what their programmes are for the year, Capital Works programmes; they have no intention of telling the nurses if they are going to get any increase, the Public Service employees. All the union negotiations that are going on at the present time will be all left up in the air.

They have no intention of telling welfare recipients and low income people what benefits they are going to get, if any, in addition to what they are already receiving,in the next fiscal year, whether for instance, anything will be done about providing no income and low income people with eyeglasses and dentures and that sort of thing, increasing their allowances so that they can cope with the high cost of living and inflation.

The government has no intention of telling us what they are going to do about the Auditor General's report and the use and the misuse of government aircraft and helicopters that has gone out of control. They have no intention, Sir, of telling us if we are going to have a continuation of the session of the House and a new Budget and what is going to 157~

March 30, 1979 Tape 622 EC - 2 happen to all the public HR. NEARY: inquiries. We have heard so much about the former Premier bringing democracy to Newfoundland. Well, the man who brought democracy to Newfoundland, his administration refused to give us in this House a list of secret loans made by the Rural Development Authority and by the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation­ absolutely point blank refused to give us in the House a list ~f these secret loans. And now we are not going to get it and the government is asking us for $354 million.

They had no intention of giving us a progress report on all the investigations that are going on, police investigations and commissions of inquiry, again the result of the gentleman who just retired from public life in this Province, the man who brought democracy to Newfoundland, the man who did away with the Public Accounts Committee, the impartial, independent Public Accounts Committee - the man who brought democracy to Newfoundland did that. Mr.

Chairman, half the administration is being investigated for some reason or other, not because you change the name and change a few faces; the people are the same, the administration is the same. What about the investigation into the St. John's Housing Authority and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, a police investigation carried on by the RCMP Commercial Crime

section for the last year? No mention of it at all - carried on in St. John's and in Happy Valley- Goose Bay where you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayers' money involved - not a word about that - swept under the carpet, keep it covered up. I am told that a quarter of a million dollars was ripped off in Goose Bay through maintenance contracts. And here in St. John's, the St. John's Housing . 1572

~larch 30, 1979 Tape 622 EC - 3 l1R. NEARY: Corporation by one of the suppliers was billed for items that were never delivered. That investigation has been ongoing. And this same firm is insisting and still doing business with the Newfoundland Government instead of being put on a suspension list, is still doing business with the Newfoundland Government and, in fact, I am told, have taken civil action against the government because the government withheld their payments - the crowd that brought democracy to Newfoundland.

The Public Treasury, Sir, has not been adequately protected in the last six or seven years and people are very nervous about giving this han. crowd another $354 million to spend. There are too many questions to be answered. What about the oil refinery? What about the Linerboard mill giveaway? What about the development of the Lower Churchill? No announcements on plans of what the government is going to do to reactivate the oil refinery and to get the Lower Churchill off the ground, no accounting of the money they have squandered and wasted in the last fiscal year.

We hear now the Norma and Gladys is going to sail up to Toronto again. No doubt the amount is included in the Interim Supply Bill. That money could be used to buy wheelchairs for some of the handicapped . 15?3

~'arch 30, 19 79 Dll - l XR. s. ~E.\RY: people in this Province . that money could be used to buy eyeglasses and dentures for some of the low income and no income families, individuals in this Province. Mr.

Chairman, I think it is terrible, it is ridiculous.And what a gall Sir, the Minister of Finance has; the new Minister of Finance,a IT'.an who you would thinlcwould like to leave the impression ~nth the people of this Province that the government is going to take a new direction,that we are going to see a little integrity and honesty restored to government and not a continuation of what we have seen in the past. And the han. member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) who used to champion the cause when he was on this side of the House that all the decision regarding the Public Treasury, financing,should be made in this han.

House and not down in the Cabinet Room on the eigth floor, now that same han. gentleman is asking the Opposition where he stood one time Sa'Jing, "No, do not do this, it is wrong, ill111!oral, irresponsible, do not do it," chat same han. gentleman now is asking the Opposition to approve $354 million for three months with no guarantee, no assurance, no committment that a Budget will ever be brought down in this House to give the people an accoucting of the administration for the last year or so.

I would like to draw to the han. lady's attention, Sir, that we had an interruption and then when you stand you can speak in the Committee as many times as you like. So I have a little longer than one minute left,I started my forty-five minutes again, MR. lUCKMAN: HR. S . NEARY : MR, HICKMAN: :MR. MARSJIALL: Oh, no. Oh, yes. Not with a point of order. Would you want an explanation? MR. S. NEARY: No, it does not wake any difference.! can get up again. If the hon. gentleman wants to get his Interim Supply Bill that he says is so urgently needed by 1:00 p.m. - ~. CHAIR¥.AN(~. CROSS): Order, please!

MR • S • ~TEARY: \~ell, then, Sir, I am quite prepared to wind down my remarks because, I mean, it is fallin~ on deaf ears anyway, Mr.Chairman,The government intend to use their majority, use brute . . 1574

~'arch 30, 19 79 Tape No. 623 DW - 2 ~[R • S . N:URY : force to railroad this bill through the House. There is nothing that the Opposition or the media can do or say that would chang~ the government's mind. They are acting in a dictatorial fashion, irresponsible and Mr. Chairman, there is nothing 1ve can do about itJapparentl y . We could drag it out, we could fili- buster if 1Ve wanted to7 but what is the· point, Sir? What is the point? It is a no-win situation.

The onl y thing that we can say, Sir, is that when the Minister of Finance speaks now that he will tell us if the government intends to bring down a Budget and give us some time frame of when they expect to bring it down. Maybe the only way to resolve this thing is put it to a vote and let the government in a dictartorial fashion railroad the bill through the House. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): The han. Hinister of Finance. DR . J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. ~eary) has brought up a number of points that I think should be responded to.

The first point he mentio~ed,this cocktail set, the St. John's cocktail set ; I really must respond to that because I think he included me in that group.I cannot recall havutg been to a cocktail party for the last year. Now I have been invited to cocktail parties. I can recall an invitation to a cocktail party at a bank, for • a visiting president of a bank;I can recall receiving an invitation to a cocktail party by a firm that has to do with aviation in the Province, I can recall receiving an invitation to go to a j!ecktail party ~~hen the Village Mall tV as opened, . 1575

March 30 , 197 9 Tape No. 624 NM - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: and I think there were one or two others,but I cannot recall having attended a cocktail party in the past year. However, I am going to look into this. If there is a St. John's cocktail group on the go I want information about it and I intend to ask the bon. member for - the bon. Minister of Transportation 4nd Communications,in any case,because the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) said that the bon. member's supporters were members of .this St. John's cocktail set. And if I remember correctl~ the present bon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications was his first supporter in his road to the leadership. So if the bon. minister knows anything about this cocktail set I intend to get that information from him. Also : the bon. Minister of Touris~, he was one of the early supporters in the leadership L race, for the present Premier,and he also presumably is in this cocktail set. His district is Ferryland but I suppose that is reasonably close to St. John's. I intend to get information from him about it. Also the bon. Minister of Public Works, whose district is in Harbour Grace. He , apparently, also is in the St.

John's cocktail set because he was a very active supporter of the present Premier in his leadership race. And I expect that he should come across with information. MR. A. HICKMAN: Will you table that information? DR. COLLINS : The bon. member for Lewisport, not Lewisport, for - MR. HICKMAN: Grand Bank? DR. COLLINS: No, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: Exploits. . . 1576

March 30, 1979 Tape No. 624 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: Exploits, pardon me. The hon. member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) apparently is also in this St. John's cocktail set. He was,I think,the second or third declared supporter for the han. Premier, so then he must be in the St. John's cocktail set also. All these hon. members should inform me, if they are colleagues,of the details of this cocktail set in case I want to get into it. I am not sure do but certainly if they have any information I would think it most discourteous and unkind of them if they do not let me into the secrets of the St. John's cocktail set. MR.

HICKMAN: Will you table it? - ~ - DR. COLLINS: And if I get that information I certainly will table it. I think I would now like to go on to another point. The han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) brought up the point of the amount 6f this Interim Supply Bill, I think a very legitimate concern. I did,I think> touch on that when I first spoke but I think I would just like to go into it again a little bit. The amount is a very large amount; $354 million of the taxpayers' money of this Province is a very large amount and I am very conscious of that.

But the amount covers a three month period and by and large the amount is based on that. One quarter of the expected expenditure for the whole year was looked at and that comprised the bulk of that $354 million. Now there are a few exceptions. If it was just simply that, simply a quarter,it would be a lesser amount. There are additions to what would be the amount . if just a quarter was looked at, and I do not think I should go 1577

ur · March 30, 1979 Tape No. 624 NM - 3 DR. COLLINS: into a whole lot of details now but I will just give an example. For instance,there are equipment rentals and maintenance contracts which the government departments have each year. Now many of these rentals, well over fifty per cent of them.do become due in the first quarter of the fiscal year so that this increases the amount. In other words,not one-quarter of those contract costs are in Interim Supply because there has to be a cash flow to satisfy fifty per cent of those rentals for a full twelve months.

So there is a larger amount in the Interim Supply Bill for these items than would normally be the case if we were just going on qne-quarter of the who~e year's cost. Similiarly , there is an item there for the purchase of a car. Now the car is not for a member of the government but it is a responsibility of the government to supply such a car .. There is an item in there for this. Well this amount is in there. The amount will be