Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, June 14, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 32

June 14, 1972 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 77l1 Page 1 - MRW MR. SPEAKER: I would like to welcome to the galleries today, the Mayor of Windsor, Mayor McCarthy, Mr. Mercer and the council delegation from Windsor. I trust that their visit here is most informative and interesting. HON. H. A. COLLINS (Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr. Speaker, arising out of some reference in one of our papers yesterday about the so-called fact that this government are secretive about reports being tabled when they should be tabled, etc.

Reference was made to the Phalen Royal Commission Report on the City of St, John's Act. I checked it out and I find that the report was tabled, June 9, 1970, two parts of it; the final report and the City of St. John's Act. The only thing that was not tabled (I do not know why it was not) was the Interim Report which should have been tabled I suppose but maybe was overlooked. At any rate, I cannot speak for the previous administration but I would like to table those copies today for the information of our brethern in the press. MR. E.H. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot speak for the former administration but I am glad the minister has tabled the reports. I am not sure what affect tabling has because as he pointed out, they were tabled in the !louse by the then minister two years ago. However, lllaybe the, editorial writer in "The Evening Telegram" will - I think that is what the honourable minister is really after, the editorial in the "Telegram" which accused him of being or the administration of being secretive. They were tabled, I do not know why the Interim Report was not tabled hut I believe lerislation was brought before the House and adopted.

It removed the corporate vote and ended the plural vote in St. John 1 s. That was in effect before the last municipal election in the City. I do not know what more need be said. The report has been tabled. It has been 2405

June 14, 1972 Mr. Roberts Tape no. 774 Page 2 acted on. I believe a new City of St. John's Act is in the works and presumably at some point it wil I be broup.ht before the House. MR. SPEAKER: ~fR . CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: HR, CROSBIE: The hon. Minister nf Finance. Mr. Speaker, I would I ike to - there is no deputy. Oh, yes there is. N I 0, No! '·1R. ROBERTS: The Premier annnunc:ed - HR.:.,_CROSBI~ T11ere i.s a Premier and an (Aninr,) Premier. ~l'i__Ho~ _MEMBE:__R_:.._ \~ell there is no Premier here, the (Actinr. .) Premier. MR. CROSBIE: ~Pt. EVANS: ~IR. CROSBIE: J am f!lacl to Ree tlvtt it is rlarifted, gnne. Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great - AN HON. MEMBER: (Tnaudihle) MR. SPEAKER: Order please'. ttR . CROSl:IIE: Thank you, i•lr. Speaker. Tt gives me great pleasure to announce the official formation of the Classification Appeal~ Boarcl which is suc,li a vital part of the new classification anci oav plan which was implem!mted in Or:tober, 1971. This p,overnment have bl'en concerned with the delay in the fot1nati.on of the bo.i.r.d, a delay which was r;msed hy a number of unforeseeahle circumstances.

However, I am pleased that the board is now readv to proceed and I am confident that the chai rm11n and board members wil 1 do an admirable 1ob in the difficu1t task which thev face. The chairman of the board is Dr. David Facey Crowther, a history pro fess or at Memorial University. 1~ will be supported bv a board consisting of: Miss Hazel Pritchett, a rnathem.'.ltics profess0r nt Memorial University; Mr. Frank Haines, the former Assist.i.nt Deputv Minister of Mines, Agriculutre. and Resources,who is now retired; Mr.

Es11u Thoms, a well-known Newfoundland labour. leader, one of the brothers I believe of the hon, member for Ilonavista North - AN HON. MEMBER: An N.D.P. 2406

June 14 , I 9 72 Tape no. 774 Pae,e 6 - MRW MR. CRO:'mIF.:__ And an N. D.P. - he has :,een the li p.ht. He is on his way t o conservatism. ~~ ~mMBER: ( tnaudib l e ). :-fR. CROSB lE: l hope he doe s not do th :i c . There ls also Mr. Fred Ande r s on, a former m:inar,er of the Royal Bank of Canada, now retfrecl.

T nm informed that office spa ce and clertc-111 assistance has been provided for the ho11rd and the first meetinR wi.1.1 be helcl a t an e::irlv date. 1 am s ure lhe hol\ou r able l!lemhcrs of the fo rmer administr a tf on know t hat there a r e m:inv huncl r eds of a ppeal s f rom the ~Jasslficatlon and Pny Plan. It Is, therefore, hoped that this hoa rcl will he nblc to si l clurin r• the 1mmm~r imd clea r up t hefle many 11ppeali. wh lch make us very concerned.

The hoar d iR now f .l na lly appointed .,net we hope bv the end of the !'lumr.ier most of t ltl's c appeals wlJ l h::ive bc-cn dea l t wl th. !!_R~.~!..: . . Where a re the offices? !!_~_'.......-c.~.<?.SlltE: T am n o t s u re . I presume Lt Li- in the build i n g hcre somc whe rt? , AN HON. MEMBY.H: ·- --- --- -· Tt· Is not over on Vi.kin ~ Road? Lt is he re tn the h ui ldi np. , MR . CROSIHE: Thar would he R good plac e fo r them. 1 Pm rlad the honourable gentlema n Rugp,est ed thllt . 2( 07

June 14. 1972, Tape 775 . Page 1 - - aph One of the first of the viki .nrs. Nr. Speaker. also, I would like to announce on behalf of the r,overnment , the President of the Hospital ftssociation and the President of N11pe. Pr. !fax Dyke, that we sipned two collective apreements today covering employees in the x-ray and laboratory p:roups. These agreements were reached between the Treasury Board, the 1':E>wfoundland Hospital Association and the Newfoundland Association of PuhUc Employees, who represent laboratory and x-·ray emp.loyees in the various povermnent and non-P.overnment hosnitals throuphout the province.

The ;ipreements provide for grievance and ;irbitrat:lon procedures, payment of premium rates for overtime worked in excess of forty-four hours a week, (that is effective April 1, 1972) remuneration for call back and stand by duty, annual leave, sick leave, compassionate and maternity leave. A new classification and pay plan f0r lahoratory and x--ray employees waf' "introduced with effect from April 1, 1972. Both these agreements will remain in effect until 'larch 31. 1973. with the exception of salaries and hours of work which are nresently heinp: renegotiated.

I believe the general principles of this were arrived at bflt year, but the final detailed apreements have _1ust been apreed and ~irned. There are copies for the Leader of the Opposition. "P. ROBERTS: }~r. Speaker., wi.th re>ference to the Aecond statement of the minister, I assume that these agreements are the implimentation in detail of the agreements worked out a year ago whi.ch have been in effect. althoup.h not formally so, is that the correct procedu~e? ~~P -'--~_!l_fl_S_~I_E_: That is correct. ll_'l_._~OBE~T_S_·_ The salaries are beinp: reopened and will doubtless be nep.oticited. I wonder, :Mr.

Speaker, if the minister would either table them (I am not so sure that they should be tabled) or perhaps he could arrange to let certainly one or two of the members on this side have copies of them, because when we come to the estimates of his colleague the Minister of Health, we may have a few words to say on some aspects

.June 14. 11172. Taoe 775, Page 2 -- apb of these and the other arreements. I am particularly interested in the procedure for ne~otiAtinp. collective ap.reements coverinp. hospital el"ployees. The minister nay take note of it, esnecia.lly in view of the recent activities of the Pospitnl Associntion, which I believe has said puhlicly that they would like to take :tt over. This is an area we hope to touch on. With reference, Sir, to the first statement made by the minister, I can only Wt>lcome it.

As he said, :it h;is been a lonp time finding five citizens who would volunteer to undertake the job of classification appeals. I imagine that there will be a great numher initiallv, When the system comes into full force and has been in effect fo.r a year or two, presumably there will he fewer. I assume the minister may want to say a word on this. There has not been any change in the practice where'hv classifications cannot be appealed as a class.

They can onlv he appealed if an individual is saying that he should be a clerk grade IV jnstead of a clerk Rrade II, not the case of all of the clerJ.-.s Rrade II of the Heal th Inspection Jlranch saying that they should he clerks grarle IV instead of clerks grade IL I assume th/lt principle still remains. because if not, it is not a classification appeal board we will need. it is an entirely new treasury board secretariat and an entirely new structure of agreements. I wish the committee nothing but good success, they are in for a lonp.,hot summer I am sure. }4R.

CROSBIE: --------·- These points that the Leader of the Opposition has raised, Mr. Speaker. I am sure my colleague the ~inister of Health will be glad when his estimates come up to explain the a!(reements reached. I believe they have been reached by the Ne"'rfoundland Hospital Association on a procedure for collective bargaining. I see no objection to tabling copies of the collective agreements if the union does not object. I do not know if they have been asked or not.

On the other point, I do not think there has been any change, That will have to be looked at as to whether you can appeal apart from individual cases. 2t09

June 14, 1972, Tape 77d, Page I -- apb 'MR. RICKYAN: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the appointment of ----- -- Mr. John Richards Norman, as Assistant Chief of Police of the Newfoundland Constabulary. I am equally pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. John Richard Browne, as Deputy Assistant Chief of Police of the Newfoundland Constabulary. These two promotions and appointments have heen recommended by Chief of Police Lawlor whose recommendation has been accepted and implimented by the Lieutenant Governor· in-Council. The appointments are effective immediately.

Assistant Chief of Police Norman is a nativ e of Bay Roberts. He 1 oined the Newfoundland Constabularv in 1936. Ile was promoted to serr.eant in 1945 and to the rank of head cons t11ble in 19 55, at which time he was transferred to the Criminal Investigation Division. In addition to serving in that di vision, Assistant Chief of Po 1 ice Norman has served as of fie.er in charp,e of junior school patrols, officer in charr,e of the highway patrol and the police prosecutoron the l!agistrate 's Court. /H,sistant Chief of Police Norman was promoted to the rank of district inspector on August 24, 1961.

He was appointed to thP rank of Deputy Assistant Chief of Police on September 8, 1970. On September 20, 1962, he was nwarded the Police Service Medal. He holds a thirty-five year bar. lie is the recipient of the Centennial Medal. Mr. Norman has attended traffic courses given by Northwestern University and the EMO courses at Arnprior, Deputy Assistant Chief of Police Brown was born in St. John's, educated at Holy Cross and St, Bonaventure's College.

During World War II, he served for six years in the Roval Navy where he saw action in Norway, Dieppe, North Africa and Sicily, Deputy Assistant Chief of Police Brown joined the constabularly in 1948. During the years from '57 to '58 he attended Northwestern University's Traffic Institute, 2i10

June 14, 1972, Tape 776, Page 2,-- apb Chicap,o, Illinois, where he graduated from the Police Administration Course, On June 1, 1958, he was promoted to the rank of sergeant and assigned to the Traffic Division. On September 1, 1963, Deputy Assistant Chief of Police Brown was promoted to the rank of head constable. In September, 1967, he became a district inspector, Deputy Assistant Chief of Police Brown has attended several EMO courses and last vear successfully completed an Executive Development Course at the Canadian Police College in Ottawa, He is the holder of the Police Service Medal.

These two senior officers have an oustanding record of service and leadership within the Newfoundland Constabulary. MR, ROWE (W,N.): Mr, Speaker, of course, we on this side welcome the announcement of these two appointments. The two gentleman concerned are respected and esteemed by all who have had anything to do with law enforcement in the province. I agree wholeheartedly with the honourable minister that they have had outstanding careers in this field. While I am on my feet, I wonder if I could ask the minister how many othervacancies.do now exist as a result of the Chief of Police resigning a month or so ago?

I am 1ust wondering how many exist because of the obvious practice of moving people uo to fill the vacant slots? "IR. HICKMAN: I have no idea. MR. ROWE (W.N.): No, idea really. Okay, we will get them in due course. MR, HICKMAN: (Inaudible). ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS. HON. H,A. COLLINS (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to Question No. 101, dated .June 12, in the name of the hon. member for St. Barbe North and also Question No. 93 on the Order Paper of June 9, from the same honourable member, HON. G. W. DAWE (Minister of Supply and Services): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the answer to Question No. 89 on the Order Paper for June 8, 1972. The answer is "no" to all of them. ~411 ~.

June 14, 1972, Tape 777, Page 1 -- apb HR. SPEAKER: Any other answers to questions? ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Justice. Would the honourable minister inform the House what steps his department has taken to remedy a most serious problem at Her Ma_jesty's Penitentiary, whereby juveniles are practically held in solitary confinement because of inadequate facilities and regulations barrinr mixing of these juvenile offenders with adult prisoners? Js!R. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I assume the honourable member for Bell Island is referrinp. to the panel discussion that took place yesterday. I am now conscious of the problem that exists and there is no question about it, it is a rep.rettable situation . I commend the superintendent of the penitentiary for drawinp. to the attention of the magistrates. that where at all possible juveniles should be sentenced to a correctional institution rather than to the penitentiary. There is no ouestion at all that the situation as it exists now is most undesirahle. I would like to know the answer to the solution or the solution to the problem.

I would hope that the correctional study which will be started, I suspect within the next week or two, of all correctional facilities, will make some recommendation so that we can deal with all :Juveniles in one or more satisfactory institutions. It would be trite to say and certainly not correct, that tomorrow we are going to tear the insides out of the penitentiary and rectify that situation, We can take some consolation in the fact that the magistrates are aware of the problem that exists there and fortunately, it is not the kind of thing that is occurring with a great deal of frequency.

Once in a while it has occurred. it is not acceptable and we just must find a solution for it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed that the honourable minister does not remember my raisinp that very point under his estimates. I

June 14. 1972. Tape 777, Pap:e 2 -·- apb would like to direct a ouestion to the honourable Minister of Finance. I am not ouite sure j_f the honourable Minister of Finance or the honourable ,finister of t-'ines. Ap;ricul ture and P.esources would answer this question, ~r. Speaker, but I would like to know if a formula has been worked out yet, whereby the poultry farmers and the hog breeders will know1 as of today, what assistance they are p.oj np, to p.et for losses incurred as a result of the strike at Newfoundland Farm Products? ¥P.. CROSBIE· -·- .. - -····· }'r.

Speaker, the honourahle member's oues tion - the answer is that this is still beinp worked on and my colleague,the Minister of ~'ines, Agriculture and Resources, will be in a position when the House neets next week to pive the full details. MR. NEARY: Hr. Sneaker, a supplementary question for the minister. Is it a fact that the hop. breeders have been offered three dollars and fifty cents to transport their hogs to the mainland to have them slaughtered? }'R. CROSBIE: No. ------------ ··- -- - ~---- ~_ARJ_: That is not a fact? -~ -·JJl..O¥S_: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable '-'inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Would the minister inform the House if the Local Improvem~nt District of Dark Cove, r,ambo and Middle Brook has asked for a meetinp. with the minister? If they have, what was the minister's answer and at what time will the minister meet with this council? ML DOODY: Mr. Speaker, questions no. 60 and 61 of Tuesday June 6, from the honourable member for Bonavieta North, the answer to both questions is no. ¥R. S_!>~AKER: Motion (8) 2(13 ....

June 14,1972, Tape 777, page 3 --apb ~!_R __ NEARY: (Ilell Island) - To move:

WHEREAS, an increasing number of citizens are suffering acutely as a result of harmful dossiers maintained on them in the files of organizations specializing in provision of financial credit information: and

WHEREAS, a great deal of this so called information is based upon most trivial flimsy and often mistaken information; and

WHEREAS, the citizen is not generally aware of channels available to him through which he may inspect and correct the information files for mis-information and faulty evidence that can have most serious and disastrous effect upon his own life, that of his family and their personal reputations in the Conununity, as well as upon their standard of living: and

WHEREAS, these channels themselves may be inadequate; and

WHEREAS, both in the United States and in Canada Governments responsible to the needs of thei.r citizens are setting up legislation and regulations to protect their citizens against this new and deadly invasion of privacy;

BE IT RESOLVED, that a Select Committee of the Hou:e be appointed to investigate the present and potential dangers to human rights in this Province posed by all organizations maintaining credit and personal information ou individual citizens for other than their OWTI confidential restrictive use; and that the said Select Committee recommend such additions to the human rights legislation of this Province as are necessary to protect its citizens. MR ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, when debate on this motion was adjourned and I believe it was before the House rose for the recess following­ well, we rose early in May and we came back the end of May, I think that it has been over a month since this matter was debated here in the House. I think it was thoroughly debated on, we spent a full afternoon on the question. We let it stand over, we being both sides, by mutual agreement, with the understanding that the government would look at the motion with a view to seeiug whether they would agree

June 14, 1972, Tape 777, Page 4 -- apb to it oi' were prepareq to support it or not. In light of the fact that I think the motion was put on the Order Paper, the Minister of P,:ovincial Affairs gave notice that be would be introducing some Bills, TI1oae Bills subaequently have been introduced, they were distributed to the House within the past two or three days only. Titey have been given first reading although aa yet they have not been called and not been debated because, of course, we are on the estimates. 2415

June 14, 1972 Tape no, 778 Page 1 - MRw '·!R.

ROBERTS: floes the House Leader on tf-ie government side \,dsb to say a word? r;o aliei!d :rnd then I wilJ come back for a seconu or two, HR, MARSHALL: '{r, Speaker, tlwrc -, are three bills~notice of which has heen given on t:1e Order Paper. !-le ar.;reed at the time that we would go no further with these bills until such tirw th:i.t the government•. s position had been determined. :inw this resolution ,·alls for a select committee, the appointment of a select committee to investieate the potential d,rngers to liuT'lau rights in this province, posed by organizations maintaining credit nnd rer,;onal information on individual citiz•~ns.

There are on the Order Paper, ;1s I say, bills dealinf'. with this vc•ry sltuation, The position of thl' rovernment i:;: ( we adjourned tl1e last time, beinr. the democratic party that i.-e an•, we r1i,,r: ussed it thorour.hly in c;111cu.

s) There is something to be snid, of course, for the resolution of the hon. member for. Bell Island, \~e feel t'iat there is no need of a select committee tu investigate this matter, purelv and Gimplv because manv of the things whi.ch this resolution desires have been handled hy the billwh;r.h we are abcn1t to hring in. i.'hese bills tn due course, of c.ourse, will be consider<>d by Committee of this Whole Hous<>, not hy a select committee but b v tlw entire House ltself.

We feel that the bills deal in suhstance with that which the hon. member for Bell Island wished to draw to t:1e attention -:it the public, If there is anythinr, in the bills, in any of the bills 1 being, as I sav, receptive to suggestions from the opposition, if there is anything th:it the opposi ti.on wish to brinr up in Committee of the !vhole, we will r;ive it full consider/ltion at the time and deal with it when the bills come in. Our position is quite simply this: That there is no need of a select committee to do that which the p,ow•rnment intend to he done forthwith or before this sittin? adjourns.

If there is anvthing in the bills which the opposition feel does not fullv cover the situation, they can hrinR it up. We will give it consideration in Committee of the lvhole and determine it then. For this reason, Mr. Speaker, we do not feel that there is need of a 2(16

June 14, 1972 Mr. Marshall Tape no, 778 Page 2 select ,:ommi t tee and we will not be. supporting the resolution because WP are already bringing measures forward to do exactly the thing which the honnurab le member desires. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable p.entleman. I guess he was really asking us a question because that was the only way he could i;ay a word. I am not so sure that I disap,ree with the honourable gentleman.

I think the fact that the bills stand as Motions 1,2,3, - the fact that the notice was given after my friend and colleague from Bell Island put his motion on the Order Paper is a coincidence and it may have served its purpose. I think the matter has been debated ful lv and the House I would imagin~ is anxious, Sir, to r.o ahead with estlmates. My colleague who is not here is prepared to withdraw the mot.ion. lf we may have consent, Sir, we will withdraw the motion.

T think it has been adequately debated, As the House Leader says ,1t wi l1 come up for discussion when the second readings of the hills fire c.al led and we wi 11 take it from there. Accordinp:ly, I would ask on heh,11.f of my colleap,ue if the motion may be withdrawn. As Your Honour 'Ali L1. remind the llouse,that requires leave, I gather it will be given. MR. SPEAKER: __ . Does the honourable member have leave to withdraw the motion? Agreed. MR ·--~~Il_~~-~-: Mr. Speaker, 2t17

June 14, 1972 Tape no. 779 Page l - MRW Mr, M~rshal 1. I might point out that there has also been an agreement today - private members' day, We are going to adjourn today until Monday. We are now goinp, to go into gov e niment husiness, For this reason I call, with the consent of the hon, member for White Bay South and his agreement, the order, Committee of Supply. On motion th;it the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY HEADING VI - EDUCATION AND YOUTH MR. ROWE (F.R,): Mr. Chairman, 602-1)1, salaries.

I wonder if the minister could inform the committee as to why we have this increase over last year. Is it because of additional staff in this division or increments in salaries or for what reason? HR, CARTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it dot?s seem like an unusually large increase. Part of it, of course, is the natural increment in salaries. This happens ev__,ry vear, But chin.flv it is broup,ht about hv the fact that there were quite a numlwr of vacancies filled in the last twelve months, particularl.v in the Division of Instruction, consultants and specialists. Of course, this has raised the whole salary bill. Dr.

Brown's department has expanded quite a bit. This is the reason. You could argue . I suppose that the $363,30() of last vear was an artifi.cal]y low figure. In other words had those vacanc i es been filled, that fir,ure last year would have been larp;er, nR. ROWE (F.B.): You said that there were additional staff added to the Division of Instruction. There is a salary p;rant under that particular division. How would that affect the 602-01, general administration? HR. CARTER: The honourable member probably did not hear me. There seems to be quite a bit of back~round noise.

I said that at first glance the $419,500 this year's fiJ?ure does seem quite a bit higher than the $363,000 last year, When you realize that this differential is caused 2(18

June 1 ~ , 19 72 Mr. Cart·P.r Tape no. 779 bv vnc;,nc1 es thnt wer e filled, t.h••n the fl r.ure nf last ve11r can be Page 2 seen as bein ? artj fif'al lv 101,. ln other words hnd these v:icancies not exJs ted last Vf'ar, tliis tl~urc~ of S)f,J, 100 would have beet1 m11c-h l ,,r11-e. Anywav t·h at 1.s the rE> 11ison for Jc. 1 do not exoect th is figur i> u, rise by the same proporcion ne xt vea r, On mc,tion (,1)2-1 1 car rir.d. ~~-· __ T_HOM~_.:.. __ MT. Chninn , 11, "'P-(l"'-08, l nntj ce that there i s quit•' a n in r rease he\·e.

Ur,,~,- th i s ln rrcase cover any cor111)uters th,it !\l "P 110w in operati on in 1d <: depnr tmi.>nt? Are some of th ese comr •iter<; outside of his dep:ntm~•nt? )!R. Ci\!:TER: This 1s hil le <l , Hr. C:ha irm;in, to the Computer Servjcps rind it Is lnrr.eose<l l n r r,elv hv staff lncrc-11ses, increases in the offl<·P 1,,ad gPner:il Iv. Thi ,; Is o ur bill that we pay to Computer Se r " l c,,,,. 7t 'is the one f•1.ant hr:iln that docs nl l our work. On mot i on 602-02-0R ~11rr.1ed. 2419 -~ -,+:,_

June 14, 1972 Tape no, 780 Page 1 - MRW On motion total subhP.ad 60?, carried. MR. ROWE (F,B.): Mr, Chairman, this is one of the few divisions under salaries that we have a decrease over last year. I wonder i.f the minister could inform the committee - MR. CARTER: Mr, Chairman, I could not hear the question, MR, ROWE {F,B.): Mr. Chairman, I must say that I am having difficulty in hearinp. answers to questions as well. It is probably because both of us are not speakin~ into the microphone. Could thev be switched up a little tiny bit? Yes, Mr.

Chairman, this i.s one of the few divisions where we have a decrease in the salary vote and I wonder if there .is any particular reason for it? MR. CARTER: I am sorry. You are inquirinr, about 604-01. MR. ROWE (F.l\.): Yes, MR. CARTER: Not fi02-IJ1 T am sorry - 604-01. That is a typographical error, Mr. Chairman, Last year should have been $49,500. If the honour ab 1 e members would change the figures there, they will find that the increase to $6'.?, 500 is caused bv the increase of one staff member. On motion 604-01,carried . ."[R, ROWE ( F, B . ) : ?-fr.

Ch:iirman, 03-06, what is the nature of the scholarships and hrusaries under 604-03-06? MR. CARTER: Their titles are: Dr. Barnes, Dr. Rurk, Dr. Blackall and Dr, Curtis Scholarships. On motion 604-03-06, carried. !1r. Ch,d r'!n:m what are these brusaries? This is not the spe.clal education brusari es or grants, is it? MR. CARTER: cir. Chairman, these a re sp~ci<1l brusaries to extra-needy students that post-se,ondary institutions are experienl"inp, in the first year of operation and this has indicated that $60,000 is in our judgment adequate. In other words, $120,000 w;is put in last year.

It was not all used . 2i20

June 14, 1972 Mr. Carter Tape no. 780 Par,e 2 By experience it was learned that $60 ,fl()O was adequate, obviously more would be nice but it did seem to handle the prop.ramme adeouatelv last \·ear. MR, ROWE (F.B.): This is for first-year university student:' . did you say? NR. CARTER: Yes. MR. RO~~(f.~_.): Aov other institutions orb lt just the university? Anv post-secondary. MR, ROHE J _F_:_l~ . .l.: Any post-secondary? ~~CAJ~T_F :..~- Yes, t'1l! especiallv needy. ~R- ROlvE __ (F~): Mr.

Chairman, can the minist1•r difi,1itelv assure w, that no needy students will be denied mone, ~equired to ~o to any institution - post-secondary education this ~ear. This is a decrease. This whole vote has been cut in half. _!1R. C!R:r_l'~~-=-- T'li.s vote a~ain I mi~ht expla:ln, Mr, Chairman, this $120,0'lO was all.ocated for this last year and only $60,000 of it was used. '!R • ROWE ( F • B • ) : Oh ! _Jl~.£.~T_ER: Therefore, $60,000 was considered to be adequate. _!!~-- ROl~F. (F. ~:2_:_ All right, thank you. On motion 604-03-07, carried. _MR. ROWE (W,N . ): Hr.

Chairman, 604-04, the honourable minister mentioned during the general debate that took place on his salary during the past couple of d11vs that perhars as we got through the various specific subheads, he would have some though ts, some words to say on some of the problems which we mentioned to him and which 2421 ~-

June 14, 1972 Tape 781 PK - 1 MR. ROWE, W,N, were aired in the House. He himself had nothing I think to say about the parent{subsidies, the mothers' allowance beinp aholished. I would li!-:.e tc, hear his position on the whole thing, the idea of mothers' allowances or parents' subsidies, (1) from a philosophical or a policy position.

(2) Could he inform the committee whether he or his colleague, the ~inister of Finance,has been in contact with Otttawa to confirm the family allowance rlelay and whether now the government are in a position to amend its original idea of aholishing mothers'allowances and to raise this amount sufficiently to allow mothers'allowances to be paid until such time as at least the new family allowance scheme comes into operation. MR. CARTER · I would he more than delighted at the opportunity to speak on anything in education under the appropriate headings.

I am very pleased that the honourable gentleman has seen fit to remind me that this is the place where these particular, there are. about half a dozen very contentious points in education and I am very pleased to have the opportunity to bring them up under the1r proper heading and this was precisely why in the past couple of days I have avoided gettinp into wide-ranr,ing debate,preferring to keep my comments for the specific sub .i ects, specific topics as thev are brought up.

Now first of all,the $Q75,000 is the amount that was voted in interim supply that was paid out to mothers in April, This wa:, the April check of $5. to each mother and the balance, if you like, it was the school year balance of the mothers' allowance, the first bit r,oing out in Septemhir or late August of 1971 and beinp: $15 per child p:oin,z to school and this $5 was the balance. A total of $975.000. There is nothinp: more in that vote because,as honourable members know,the mothers allowance has unfortunatley been cancelled 2~22

June 14, 1972 Tape 781 PJ( - 2 MR. CARTER: I say unfortunate because I think any honourable member would agree that mothers ' al]owance is a great help to matters and particularly for those with large families. Unfortunately ~ecause of the mess that was left to us, we had to trim our sails somewhat . Tt is a gross distortion of fact to say that this money was saved. Tn fact the education vote is up and you conld very well argue that this much money that is allegedly being saved is of course being put into education.

Nm,, no one is naive enough to suggest that each dollar that comes into the pnvernment hy wav of revenue also comes in with ;i label on it, It r,oes into the pot and expenses naturally come out of the pot. It is impossir.le to say what each percenta~e point of the sales tax goes for.

The answer,of course it goes into general revenue and is spent in general revenue. r,:duca tion spendim? is up and it is up considerahl; it is up in effect to $160 million, if you take into account the spendinp in other departments, Some honourable members might suggest that is not a fair comparsion 1that we are here talking about the education hudget 1 and I will grant them their point. But at the same time. the total spending on educational facilities, current and capital, in ?-'ewfoundland in this coming fiscal year is $15~ million.

The other point of course that was made by the honourable Minister of Finance is that this is the only province in Canada that has such a programme. If the financial future of Newfoundland, tf we are going to have any future it is going to be largely determined by our fiscal relations with Ottawa, t do not see how we can make a convincinp, case to nttawa that we are in desperate need for additional financial assistance, if at the same time we continue a plan in effect,the like of which is not in any other province.

I would suggest further that those of you who are really and honestly concerned with the mothers of this province and the poor mothers in particular,would do well to sleep 2i23

June 14, 1972 Tape 781 PK - 3 MR. CARTER: on that particular thought. In fact hy granting the mothers' allowance and in affect saying to Ottawa, "'e are in such a wealthy province that we do not need any further help ,is in fact, I would sug,:,est,a stab in the hack for the poor mothers and their future. Therefore, I unfortunatley had to concur wjth my colleagues that it is absolutely necessary that at this time this particular allowance be hela in abeyance. As to the increased family allowance, we are certainly not, it is certainly not definite that this will not come into effect within the next six months.

We are told that it may not come into effect for another year, but I would say at the present time this is spectulation and we will have to wait until it is further confirmed. If there are any other points or any other questions on this particular heading, 1 would be more than happy to take my seat and cleal with them as they arise. MR. ROWE, W.N. Mr. Chairman, on the point of the mothers' allowances , parents' subsidies - I would like to go on rPcord as saying that what the honourable Minister of Educati.on has _iust uttered is so much nonsense and foolishness.

Ottawa is not roinp, to do anything special for Newfoundland as a province when it comes to current account payments, when it comes to payments made by nttawa to this province for current accounts. What Ottawa may in fact do, Sir, is to make some adjustments to the equalization payments which will put every province in Canada in exactly the same boat - nothing special for any province.

Newfoundland may get more under an equalization grant or equalization payments, but that would only be because of the formula which is being worked out, more than say, proportionally more than say Nova Scotia hecause of certain considerations that are taken into account when the formula is made. So to say that we have to cut out the mothers'allowance because it makes our case stronger when we go to Ottawa lookin,z for addi.tiom11 2424

June 14, 1972 Tape 781 PK - 4 MF. ~ _OWE , W.N. money, additional current account revenues to run this province 1 is so much nonsense. Sir, it holds no water whatsoever. Thi!! province will get money from Ottawa for current account expenditures on the same hases as any other province and what this province does with its money. I would submit, Sir, firstly, is no concern of Ottawa , within our jurisdiction and within our competence as a Legislature jn this province. number one.

(2) I would further suhmit that no minister in Ottawa would be so silly, so petty or so ignorant as to inquire into what Newfoundland is doing with its money, the money that comes into the consolidated revenue fund of this province unless, from a practical point of view, unless such expenditures by the province were grossly irregular and grossly stupid. To call the mothers' allowance or !:he parents' subsidy or to put the mothers' allowance or the parents'subsidy in that category, I do not think even the honourable minister would go so far as to do that. I think.

Sir, that the argument which he has propounded and the argument which the honourable Minister of Finance has propounded about weakeninr our case to 0ttawa hecause the mothers' allowance is in existence is not logically sensible and it is not practicably sensible because we will he in no special position 1,rith regard to Ottawa, we will he in the same position as any other province and it has nothing to do with our expenditures, it has to do with the formula on which equalization payments are made and that fomul.a applies to Newfoundland and to New Brunswick. Nova Scotia, ()uehec, Manitoba equally.

There is no special case made for any province and no special consideration is given to any province,and I douht very much if at anytime in the future the Government of Canada, as far as operating revenues are concerned, current account revenues are concerned,whether the Government of Canada will ever consider any province to be in a special case, because that would undermine the fabric of Confederation. So, Sir, the honourable minister would be well advised not to use 2425 ,_

June 14, 1972 Tape 781 PK - 5 MR. ROW_P._, _ _!~ . N. that specious and unto n able argument about us tryinr, to Ret more money from Ot tawa, when he tri-es plainly to defen<l the aholitlon, the annihilation of the par ent:s'suhsidy in the estimat es which are beinp presented to thi s committe e. MR. CARTT~R: There was another ariument that I did not make,hecause J. thou~ht it was so obvious to all that it was Quite unne cess a ry to ma ke it. The f~ct 1s, I did actually allude to it.

June 14, 1972 Tape 782 JM - l The fact is, the main, hard, brutal fact is that our comrades on the other side of the House, our predecessors who occupied this government for the pas~well certainly for the past several years 1 mismanaged our financial affairs to such an extent that now it is literally quite impossible to pay the mothers' allowance. I would love to pay it. I think it ought to be paid. The mothers certainly need it. No one disputes the need for that but (

a) not having the money and the corollary of that is to get the kind of money that would be needed to pay the $3.5 million. Such extraordinary financial gyrations would have to be undergone that Ottawa could well look upon us with disfavour, in fact any sane person would look upon us with disfavour. The other point that I think should be made at this time is that if the honourable gentleman's theories were to be carried out he would put Confederation back probably before 1867, one formula for all of Canada.

If Confederation means anything surely it means that special areas of Canada will get special attention and I can think of no more special area of Canada than ~ewfoundland. I think it is rendered particularly special when you look at the last twenty-three years of brutal mismanagement and neglect. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Chairman, I cannot stand here and hear the minister try to excuse himself for the elimination of the parent1 1 subsidy by 1 for the nth time,referring tn the performance of the past twenty-three years.

Sir, he has a black and white policy on this and I submit that he has not given it any thought whatsoever, just a complete wipe out of the mothers' allowances without even considering the possibility of some sort of a means test that could be applied to this allowance so that the needy mothers · of this province would get this allowance. Sir, when he can refer to the past and talk about the financial 2427 ... ' f,'

June 14, 1972 Tape 782 JM -· 2 mess that we are in and the fact that this administration does not have any money whatsoever,when recently this administration passed over $2.6 million to Spencer Lake and $5. million to Doyle, I cannot see how that argument can hold up whatsoever. So I reject it completely.

Sir, the other point that the minister still has not answered and in fact the five Conservative members of the House of Commons are apparently as concerned as we are over on this side of the honourable House, they are concerned over what the minister intends to do if the family income security plan is not introduced over the next year. We have not heard any indication as to what would happen in this oarticular event. Another point, Sir, is that the argument is being used that we are a poor province and therefore cannot afford somethinr, like the mothers' allowance.

Well, Sir, this is the very reason that we have the mothers' allowances in the first place. We are a poor province and too many of our people are still poor and there are, Sir, many, many hundreds of families in this province who could benefit greatly from this $20.00 per year per child. Sir, I have to repeat an example that was brought up last night in this honourable House. If we have a low-income family or a no-income family,and there are too many of those,with five children going to school, Sir, this family would get $100.00 per year to assist the mothers in getting their kids to school.

Sir, that plan has been wiped out ruthlessly and instead we had a political move 1made prior to the last election,when the seven per-cent sales tax on children's clothing was eliminated. Sir, I submit that this political trickery will not benefit the poor people of this province as much as the people who are better off. Sir, in order for a poor family, this family of five,to benefit from the 2~28

June 14, 1972 Tap e 782 JM - 3 elimination of this sales tax,that poor family with five kids would have to buy $1400,00 worth of clothing in order to j1:a!n back the hundred dollars that was lost through the elimination of the mothers' allowance. Sir, I would suggest that there are an awful lot of people,well off people 1 who are really the ones who are ~oin~ to derive benefits from the elimination of that sales tax. It is not the poor people, it is the rich people who are goinp; to benefit from thnt move and it is the poor people who su f fer from the elimination of the mothers' allowance.

Sir, if the government or present administration wanted to save $3.2 million in one area of. education I would sulil:gest, Sir, that they should have taken that money saved and spend it in some other area of education such as helping to, for one example, I will ~i ve you many other ex11mple.s, but they could have been used in order to help reduce the present student-teacher ratio. So, Sir, I still have, I would Hke probably to mention .iust very briefly this very important point, Tam not suggesting that the mothers' allowance should be retained as it was.

I think that there were too many parents in this province who were getting this - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), AN HON. ME~ER: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Chairman, I believe when an honourable member is speakinr, in this House he has a right to be heard in silence. AN HON. }ffiMBER: (Inaudible). ~_ROWE(F.B.)_!_ Sir, would you rule on it please? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the honourable member ready for the point of order? ~~~- ROWE(F.B.): I am suggesting, Sir, - MR. CHAIRMA.~: You ask for a ruling. "fR.

RO~(F'.B.): Yes, I am raising a point of order that an honourable member in this House has a right to be heard in silence. 2429 .... r,

June 14, 1972 Tape 782 JM - 4 MR. CHAIRMAN : The honourable member is correct. An honourahle ------- member when speaking when he has the floor and has been recognized by the Chair is entitled to be heard in silence. MR. ROWE(F.B.): What I was trying to suggest, Mr.

Chairman, is that the original mothers' allowance ,which was a grand concept and three honourable members on the other side of the House must have at least agreed with it to the extent of more than fifty per-cent because they served under the administration that had this particular concept draft to start off with, but, Sir, what I am tryinr to suggest is that the mothers' allowances as it was first conceived probably benefited a few mothers in this province who really did not need it.

What I am suggesting is that really some more thought should be given to this business of the mothers' allowance and that some consideration be given to the possibility of bringinp it back in,with some sort of a means test being applied to it. Sir, I am serious about that.

I would like the minister basically to relate to whether or not there is any possibility that this mothers' allowance in spite of this could be brought in on a means test basis, I would almost go so far as to say this; put the seven per-cent, I probably should not say that, back on the clothing because the poorer mothers of this province do not gain the benefits from that move,that they would benefit from as far as bringing mothers' allowances back in is concerned.

Sir, I would like to hear his thoughts on it, focondly I would like to hear whether or not or what he is planning to do if this is delayed for say one year,because I do not believe I have heard an answer to that particular question. MR. CARTER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North, Mr. Chairman, has not done his sums. In the first place the cost of taking off the seven per-cent on children's clothing, the cost of that is roughly, 2~30

June 14, 1972 Tape 782 JM - 5 round figures, half a million dollars. Granting, even granting ti at a mothers' allowance with a means test could be instituted I think we still, all honourable members will agree that we are still talking about a sum of money substantially in excess of $2. million. I think that the honourable 2431

June 14, 1972 Tape No, 783 NC - 1 MR. CARTER: member would agree that even granting,for the sake of argument, that a mother's allowance with a means test could be instituted, we are still talking about a sum of money quite in excess of $2 million. Would the hon. member grant me that for the sake of argument? MR. F. ROWE: In other words what you are saying is that there are that many mothers in need ••• There are mothers who need $2 million. MR. CARTER: Yes, the need is certainly great. I will grant the hon. member that. There is no question about it.

The need is certainly great hut where would the hon. gentleman have me take it from? Would he have me take it from the maintenance grants? $11 million. Would he have me take it from the teachers' salaries? He would have me take it from Doyle. It was very carefully established in a long,contentious but very thorough debate,right here in this very House this year,that that $5 million was inescapable, absolutely inescapable and it was inescapable precisely because the previous administration had been so loose in , their dealings with Mr. Doyle. So I think that that $5 million we can write off right away.

Now he asks me about the money paid to Spencer Lake . That money was paid to procure a viable industry that should return that cost many, many times. AN HON . MEMBER: It was worth less than $1 million. MR. CARTER: Well, certainly not in terms of its potential value. The other thing is, and here is a point that should be borne in mind, when I made the point, "we are a poor province," I meant it in two ways. We are a province, an undeveloped province, a newer province, a less industrially developed part of Canada than many other parts.

So we are to all intents and purposes a poor province, but we are also a poor province because of gross neglect and mismanagement in the last twenty-three years. The hon. gentlemen may wiggle like eels but they cannot escape from that particular box, that is a label that they and their children and their children's children will have to wear, to their disgrace,to their graves and let them 2432

June 14, 1972 Tape No. 783 NC - 2 put that in their pipes and smoke it. They should keep very, very quiet on that puint. The hon. members on the other side of the House who were involved in the previous administration should hang their heads, Then is no point, no mileage to be made out of defending that very rotten administration, and it is precisely because of that administratJun that we are unable to give the mother's allowance that is, in the opinion of all hon, gentlemen in this House, very greatly needed. MR.

ROWE (!'1M.): Mr, Chairman, one or two points I would like to make regarding the hon. minister's remarks, one is this argument that he fanatically comes up with on every possible occasion, he seems to be obsesse .d with it, concerning the gross mismanagement, so called ,of the province in the past twenty years or so,which means that money has to be taken away in respect of the parents'subsidy. Then.. Sir, in a statement which he does not consider to be at all contradi c tory, he asks the hon, member for St. Barbe North; where would he take u1e monty from the estimates in order to reinstate the mothers' allo~ance.

Now, Sir, if there has been gross mismanagement, if programmes have heen brought in which are wrong, or mone)' spent needlessly on programmes, let him tell us. He is the great inquisitor, let him tell us where the money should come out of these estimates to reinstate at least a portion of the mothers' allowance on some kind of a needs or means test. Let him tell us. Not a scintilla of evidence or proof or any suggestion whatsoever has been adduced to show where there has been any mismanagement.

Is there a programme in some other estimates, in some other department's estimates that should be done away with because it is wrong, it is evidence or proof of mismanagement of public funds? No suggestion of any kind, He himself,as a minister representing the government in respect of this department,ap~arently has satisfied himself that the other programmes in the estimates presented to the House are all good, viable, high priority programmes or otherwise he would have insisted that such programmes themselves would have been wiped out and the mothers' allowance kept in. He has already 2433 > -

June 14, 1972 Tape No, 783 NC - 3 admitted the mothers' allowance is a good programme, at least I have not heard him deny it. He says, "we all agree it is a good programme." If he is going to say that public funds have been mismanaged on various other programmes or various other heads of expenditure by previous administration, let him point them out in the estimates. Let him show the House where the mismanagement has taken place, where money is needlessly wasted.

He cannot come up with any programmes or any points where this so-called mismanagement of public funds has taken place, so he has been bulldozed by the Minister of Finance into cutting out a very valuable programme, the mothers' allowance• I can only reiterate what my hon, friend from St.

Barbe North has said, it would have been easy for the hon. minister to speak up in Cabinet or elsewhere and say, no, $1,5 million or more than $1.5 million in excess of the value of the plant in Burgeo should not be lashed out from the public treasury of this province to the Lake interests down in Burgeo, That $1.S million should be k~~t in our revenue to serve one of two purposes either to help balance the budget, the hon.

Minister of Finance has said he cannot balance the budget on current account this year, or better still that $1.5 million should have been used to reinstate or to keep the mothers' allowance in existence in this province for at least this year, even if it were on a reduced rate, some kind of a means test or a needs test.

Throughout the year, studies taken by the government might conceivably tum up programmes throughout the estimates which are no longer needed, or if they are needed are no longer of such a high priority that they need to take a share of the public revenue and that perhaps monies could be saved,from these programmes which could be done away with ✓ to go towards a revised and amended mothers' allowance or oarents' subsidv oro~ramme. 8434

June 14, 1972 Tape No. 783 ,C - The hon, minister should stop talking about the gross mismanagement of the past twenty years. It is easy to talk in general, vaRue and abstract terms about mismanagement.

I!· is difficult, I would submit Sir, for him to come up with solid concrete specific examples, For him to try to draw a tissue or veil of nonsense over the abolition of the parents' subsidy and to try to use this blanket condemnation of financial mismanagement for twenty-three years, try to use that as an excuse for his own lack of moral courage in insisting _ as a minister,that this parents'subsidy should remain ln effect, Sir, stretches our sense of outrage and the sense of outrage of the people of Newfoundland who are vitally concerned with this progratm11e, ~tretches it, Sir, to the limit. MR.

CARTER: I think the hon, members reasons are backwarcl ,11d illogical. I need only mention one item alone in the budget and that is the enormous payment of money to the linerboard mill that is made necessary by their gross mismanagement, AN HON. MEMBER: When? When? MR, CARTER: But it is money that we have to find. It is money that we have to find this year. In any event, Mr. Chairman, I think we have covered this point pretty thoroughly and I am certain that hon. members opposite will at least want to pass 604-04 ,which is the $975,000 that was actually passed out. Surely they do not disapprove of that.

MR, ROWE (F): I just cannot stand it, Recentlv we heard of this great new pro~ramme thAt was going to be instituted, not programme but the elimination of this tax on children's clothing. There was publicity given to this all over the province, a great hullabaloo about it and we learn here, Mr. Chairman, from this committee this afternoon, that it only cost the government $1.5 million. In other words, this was a move that saved money, MR. CARTER: That figure is approximate. 2-i35 !,·

June 14, 1972 Tape No. 783 NC - 5 MR. ROWE: Approximate, it will be up to $1 million no · doubt by tomorrow. Sir, what the minister failed to understand completely was this - I am going to say this as simply and shortly as I can, that this removal of the sales tax on children's clothing helps richer parents to a 2436

June 14, 1972. Tape 784. Page 1. (afternoon) greater extent than it helns average narents to a greater extent than it helps poorer parents. It is as simple as that. Jn order to save monev on childrP.n 1 s clothing vou have to be able to buy children's clothing, In order to l.e able to r-.ave thP e'!uivalent of what you would get with a family of five a familv would have to buy Sl,400 worth of clothing. Now, Sir, that has to hurt the poorer families. It certainly does n,,t help the poorer families.

At the s/lme tim<', Sir, we have had the courage to admit,at least I have over on this side of the llom;e, that there might have been something wrong. We have admitted it. That there might have heen something wrong t-1 L th the mothers' allowance as it had existed. S0J11e people were getting the monev who did not need it. We have the courage to ndmit that. 1,e are simnly asking the minister if he would give some consideration to the noss-fbi litv of reestat-li.shing the mothers' allowances on a means l,c, ·is or something eouivalent to it. That is all we m:e rn,:,:ing him, to do.

H," gets un for the third or fourth time and starts talking about the nast. We are sick of hearing it. I ask the honourable minister one other simple cmestion, I am sure his Torv friends in Ottawa are interested in hearing the answer. That is; what is the present administratim 's intentions if this is ,lelayed for one vear? It is no good to sav it is not going to happen or it may ·mt hapnen, I Rm simply asking the question; what would happen? What does this government plan to do if this programme is delayed?

MR.CARTER: It is delayed - MR, ROWE: Tt hl'ls been announced that it is delayed, There was some talk l'lhout the minister of Finance trying to confirm it, I would assume that an announcement from the Federal r.overnment is sufficient, confirmation is not reallv necessary, and a phone call is certainly 2437 .-,,,

June I 4 , 1 n2 . Taoe 784. Page 2. not that difficult to make. So, Sir, that is all we are a,-: king. We have admitted, Sir, things about our performance in the past 1 We got the answer on ~10.rch 24th., now we are looking for action over there not here. MR .CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman got the answer on March 24th. He certainly did. The budget that we have had to ~rin8 down this year is the answer tot.he last five or six years of reckless and wasteful practices by the honourable gentlemen's !!IOVernment.

Now as far as the mothers' al lmrnnce is concerned the position is, it should be quite clear. The position ~Ir. Chairman, is this:' The orovince this vear has deficit current account ,-,f $3 Tjlillion, In any event, after making all the cuts we possiblv could make, cuts that we did not want to make, practicing the utmost d:lscipline, there was a deficit on cur.rent account of :;,3 milli.c,n thi.s year, aooroximately. There was a defi.cit in the current account last vear, it was not forecast it was not shown,of nearlv $4 million.

It would have been $20 million except that there was an unexpected windfall through tax equalization audited bv the Vederal Government that ~ave anc,ther $16 million last ye~r that was not anticipated. not come through this year. Thnt windfall will The position is ouite clear,Mr.

Chairman, that if we continually have eurrent account deficit, then if we have in some particular vear a current account deficit of 20 million, 30 million, 40 million :1.t will be no good for this province to go out looking to borrow money because the money will not be available to borrow, Therefore there has to be cuts and there have to be some savings attempted. Mothers' allowance is a programme that this province instituted~ As I said the other night, no one wants to cut a programme that is giving anycne in the nrovince anything,for political reasons if for no others.

We have to face the facts whether this province is going to he viable in the next 2438

June 14, 1972. Tape 784 Page 3. four or five vears or not. If we want to make a case to Ottawa for more heln than we ;we getti.ng now,we h;ivp tc• do our hest 1·., do away t••ith nrop,rllmmes that even the richest r-rc,1ri· ·,cc, c:mnot ,,fforr, thP r:I chest orov1 nee does not i.nsti tute. Becm1RP tl,c richer ;, rovinces of Canada this year through tax eoual1zati.on ,thrciu11h paying more to Ottawa,are transfprring $120 mil 1 ion down to Ncwfot·.,d' anrlr thev are interested tc> know what we are doing with 1t.

So, regretfullv, mothers' allowance is n nrogramme that the richest province cannot affo,·ci, certainlv Newfoundland cannot afford and it so haonens that the Government of Canada is instituting a new faihily income securitv D] an, the result of which wil 1 he. under the formula that thPv are going to 11sP,that thosp who need and reau'~e this add:1.tional social a .ssistance are going to have the arnnout thev received <louhle<l.

Here i.n the p,·ovince of Newfoun<ll and, hecause there are large families and our low :Incomes, the average is goi.n!! to ~o from Family Allowance from seven clollars r,ne cent a month to four!:een odd dollars a month. That fn,m an amount of !,19 million 1•hich the mothers of the province will receive this vear from Ottawa, once that ne1•· fT programme ts introclucerl,thev will ~ettin~ aonroximatelv $38 million, tvice as much. 1-!hat we are eHminati.np is an amount of $3,200,noo in a full vear, While the mothers of Newfoundland,under the Fed era] nroJ,?;ramme, will receive an i.ncrease of about $19 million.

That i.s not all the mothers of Ne~•foundland hecause those that do not need it, those with incomes over a certain amount per year will not receive it. Now, that is 1,,hy we are eliminating the mothers' a;]owance and we know that t-1hatever p;ap is left by it is ~oing, to he more than amply taken up by Ottawa instead of this nrovince. Now after the budget speech is announced Ottawa or some deputy minister says that hecause of the computers of such and such and so on there is going to be an eight months delav in getting that programme underway. 2439 .... , .

June 14, 1972. Tape 784. 'l'nge 4, We have no word from Ottawa that there is p;oinp: to be delav bevnnrl January 1, 1972. WE do not know that officially vet, We do not kn: t,' what Ottawa is up to i.n that re, -~,ect. If it so happens that it does not commence hy January 1, 1973, we can re-examine the situation. We will certainly kno~, that h!'fore September. We are not promising to re-institute it. It may be re-instituted, it may not. We are not p.oinp. to malte a dec:i si.on now. We are not p;rdng to re-ins ti. tute it unless :it :1.s absolutely nece11sary. Whv not?

Bec~~e this nrovince cannot afford it because our prioritie11 are for other thinps. If we can, the S3 million there that we are savin~ there can certainlv more usefully be used in other aspects of education or pesource development or whatever. That is our choice, We are nrepared to stand or fall by it. If the mothers of Newfound­ land are dissatisfied with thiR then thev will defeat us in t hree or four vears time. Bnt we are prenared to take that risk. I am not worri.ed about three or four vears time. I am worried about the sta• ·e the province is in now.

Whether in three or four years time we will still have our o~m f'.OVernment, that WP ,.,111 still be ablr to afford to have our own p.overnment, or will be run hy a commission somewhere - So we are trvinp. - (inaudible) MR.CROSBIE: Yes, again the result of your years of misru]e could be another commission. So, }fr. Chairman, that is the position on the mothers' allowances. It cannot be blamed on the Minister of Education or the ~inister of Finance or any minister. Every one on this side of the House takes responsibility for it. If there was an election in three weeks time Mr.

Chairman I !1rophecy ther'? would not be one honourable r,entleman left on the other side of the House because the people of Newfoundland are tired of your pusillanimous buffoonery.

June 14, 1972 . Tane 784. That is what they are tired of , the 1wri:rnnal attacks and ;ibul'le. Oh, the c haq~e t hat the Minister o( f'cluc,ltlon :I s inco mnetent . He is thill, he ls that . " he Mtn1::<ter of Pinance is t h ',• • that and the othe r. Peoole of Newfound l and wrre tired of t ha t ] •,nr. ,go . Give us a chance to 1,1et on wi.tlt the inh . The mntheri;' nlJowim,ce, vo11 think vou are on II poo d Issu e nollttral]v. l'lne; Yn11 hnve made vour ooi nt , there 1.s no reason to ~o on :mv lon<>er th1R .tftemoon . ' e nrC'ss will rennrt it, tlrnt npoin VN1 ohjl'ct a ho11t t he mr,thPr s· a1lo1 ,rnnce .

The notnt is ~·el I macll' , You w:111 he vapoinp, vakltin~. wackin )l. and ouackinp. on the election t r ail nll c'urin~ the yea r whPn the- f.'ederal Election ccimcR, ••·i th the ,;amp j11nk . They 1-'i ·1 I hear it over and ovPr ap11i.n. When the eJect:lon comes thev wtl 1 1!lnore it heca u!IP the v k no1,, th11t 11o u p,entl emen oppos;1 te a r e t:e~nonsi l• l e for t he eltmlnnt ion of t hr mo ther11 1 allo~ances. !'JR. N""~Y : njd vou Pvc>r ln vo11r lJ f e,•h: . C:ha1rmlln , M1LC:IIAJRMAN: The honourable Minister has the floor - ~R ;.C'~!!:.f,_~ 'Ir.

Chairman , 11 counle of noints. f'irst of all thE're is no, th (•re nPvPr •laR anv 244 1 .....

June 14, 1972 Tape 785 impression left abroad that the reduction or the abolition of the seven per-cent on children's clothing was a substitution for the removal of the mothers' allowance. That was not intended. There was no relationship whatsoever between the two.

On the one hand it was felt tha.t the seven per-cent on children's clothing was an unnecessary hardship and was removed by this government and at that time, 1 might add that it was hoped that perhaps the mothers' allowance could be sustained,but events proved us wrong, Hardly a day passed but a new enormity w11s not unearthed, left over from the old administration. I might add, Mr. Chairman, that since this Budget has been brought down the Department of Education here in the Confederation Building has not received one letter or one phone call from any mother.

They understand something that honourable gentlemen on that side of the House apparently do not. MR. NEARY: ---------- Mr. Chairman, obviously the Minister of Education is out of touch with the masses of the people in this province as is the Minister of Finance who came swaggering: into this House this afternoon, Mr. Chairman. He disappeared after the question neriod. He must have gone out and taken a pill and r:one to sleep and all of J}f - 1 a sudden he waltzes into the House, swaggers in and makes a political speech defending his colleague, the Minister of Education. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Again I ask the honourable members to remain relevant to the question which is parents' subsidy. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I will be as relevant as the Minister of Finance was in his remarks. ~ _9!!\IRMAN: Order, order! The honourable member can appeal the ruling of the Chair,if the honourable member steps beyond the bounds of relevancy and is ruled out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am not appealing Your Honour's decision 2442

June 14, 1972 Tape 785 but I am merely pointing out to the Chairman thlll 1 w:111 stick as much to the point as the Minister of Finance did in his remarks and I am sure the Chairman will all.ow me that .l11ti.tude. So, Sir, he waltzes into the House, swaggers in to defenrl Bf!Rin the> Minister of Erlucation. A"l HON. MEMEER: To prop him up. MR. NEARY· --- -- ·- -- . Prop him up, the incompetent Minister of Education , Now. Mr. r,h,i_irman, let us look at some of the arguments that the Minister of Finance gave for droppinr., for wipin?, out the mothers' allowance. First of all he says that Ottm-m - AN HON.

MEMJlER: He is gone again now. MR. NEARY: Ile is gone again now, }'r. Chairman. The honour ah le minister has left the Chamber again. He cannot take it. He can dish it out but he cannot take it. He should follow his cioctor's instructions anci stay out of controversy. The honourable minister stated. Mr.

C.hairman, that Ottawa would take a c!im view of this when ministe>rs and the honourable Premier go jetting off to Ottawa by the dozens. up wandering around Ottawa, wining and dining with the Prime Minister, that they will take a dim view of this province goinp. to Ottawa to look for additional assistance because we have a mothers' allowance in Newfoundland that is costing the province g2.5 million or $3. million. Mr. Chairman, did you ever hear such nonsense in your life? JM - 2 Did you, Mr. Chairman, ever hear so much nonsense, hogwash, balderdash? Just is not true, Mr. Chairman.

The honourable minister who m11de that statement knows that the Province of Quebec which is one of the poorest provinces in Canada have their own family allowance plan a.nil Quebec is not doing bad, Jllr. Chairman, gouging a few extra dollars out of Uncle Ottawa, out of rich Ottawa. So they are going to hold it against the mothers of this - ...

June 14, 1972 Tape 785 JM - 3 Mr. Chairman, is there any dialogue at all between the Provincial Tories and the Federal Tories'! Only about a week and a-half ap.o we heard the Federal Tories ranting and raving, beatinp; their r,ums about the "rovincial Tory Government dropping the mothers' allowance. Would not the Tory members of Parliament know, Mr. Chairman, that this would affect our credit rating in Ottawa? Would they not know that or iR there any dialogue between the Provincial Tory Government and their Tory counterparts in Ottawa? Now, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable Minister of Education is givinp. all kinds of excuses for dropping the mothers' allowance, referring to the previous administration, the extravagance and the waste, Sir. Let us talk about the future. Mr. Chairman. Forget the past and let us talk about the future. Since the election of March 24 this Tory Government has hirea a minimum, Mr. Chairman, of ten special assistants, executive assistants, information officers and what have you. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). - ·- ------- MR. NEARY: No, I would say ten, Mr. Chairman, that was the count about two weeks ago. MR. NEARY: ·--- --- ~fr.

Chairman, the count about two weeks, a week and a- half or two weeks ago was ten. I would say it is probably closer to fifteen at the present time. Fifteen expensive, highly paid flunkies , party hacks, Mr. Chairman, and now the great Director of Information Services decides that he needs a playtoy so they are going to put teletype machines in. all the news offices right across this orovince. They are doing it, Mr. Chairman, at the exoense of the mothers. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order.

I do not know what the teletype machines and the Director of Information Services has to do with the sub .1 ect under discussion which is the mothers' allowance and I would submit that the honourable member is restrained within the bounds of relevancy.

June 14, 1972 Tape 785 MR._R..Q.WE(W.N.)_: Mr. Chairman, what the honourable ml:mher for Bell Island is doing is showing that the mothers' allowance should have greater prjority and what should happen is that other programmes such as teletype machines and what not and flunkies and this sort of thing should be abolished rather than the mothers' allowance. I would .mbmit, Sir, that he is well within the rule of relevancv in making such a statement. MR. ROWF:(f.n.): May I speak to the point of order, Mr. Chairman?

The ~inister of Education suggested earlier in his remarks when he was being criticized for not beinr. able to get a greater cut of the pie for his department that he has to take everything into consideration as far as the administration of this country is concerned. He has to consider every other department and what my honourable culleague is simplv doinp. is exactly the same thinr.. He is considerinR other areas of administration in thjs province and then he is using them as examples. Then I submit the point of order is not here. MB:-_f~ .:.....

That particular point that the honourable gentleman is making came up at a time when we were not discussing sub-headl.i That came up at the introduction of the estimates when the discussion was much more wide ranging and probably rightly so,but at this very moment we are on 604(04) - Parents'Subsirly. So I would like the discussion to remain relevant to that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Standing Order l14(

b) sets out that speeches in Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration and you will note the emphasis "strictly relevant." Now it is relevant for the honourable member to point out areas where money could have been saved. However, it is not relevant for the honourable member to go into detail in these areas and this, I believe, the honourable member was tending to do. So I would ask the honourable member to keep this in mind and remain strictly relevant to the items of expenditure under consideration. 2445

June 14. 1972 Tape 785 JM - 5 ~fF.. NEARY_;_ Yes, Mr. Chairm an, you are absolutely correct. l ap,ree with Your Honou r's rulin~,!lgain we a r e ri~ht on this side of the House. l'he honourable members on the other side have tried to stj. fle debate but they are not goin~ to get away wi.th it, Mr. Chairman, not ln this session of the Rouse of Assembly. The honourabl e member for St . .John's ~ast talks about freedom of the press . He does not know what freedom is, I.fr. Chairman. He is ROinp; co censor the p·ress.

I started to t alk ahout extravagance, Mr. r.hairman, and i.t was the ~linister of Education who raised the point when he was referrinii to the rrevious administration and I ,iust turned it around the other w;,.y and started to look t o the future. I would hazard to jluess, Mr. Chairman . that by the time thi s rropa,zanda machine., this Goebbels type pro.pagan ,'a machine is beinr. set up in this province,

June 14, 1972 Tape No. 786 NC - 1 by the time it is finished it will cost the taxpayers oc this prov~nce a substantial amount of money, Sir. The point that I am making is that I think that that is one project that should have been dropped because it has been implemented at the expense of the mothers of this province. I said, Sir, that the Minister of Finance was picking the pockets of the mothers of this province. I do not think it would be parliamentary for me to say that the Minister of Education is snatching their purses. I do not think that would be parliamentary, Sir, so I will not say it. MR.

CH~IRMAN: Order, Again there is a rule which say basically that a member cannot do indirectly what he is not permitted to do directly. If this is what the hon. member is attempting to do then he is using unparliamentary language. The hon. member, once it came to his attention that what he had intended to say was unparliamentary, then the proper procedure was not to say it at all. MR. NEARY: Well I must apologize to the Chair but I was thinking out loud, Mr. Chairman, and certainly I agree that I should not have said it. Now that I have said it, Sir, I withdraw it. I withdraw all of it. I withdraw, Mr.

Chairman, a statement that I made that the Minister of Education could be compared to a purse snatcher. I do not think that is becomming of the honourable Minister of Education, So, when we talk about extravagence, maybe the Minister of Education should take a look at the overall estimates, take a look at them. See how much, Mr. Chairman, the Premier's Office is going to cost next year as compared to what it cost when Premier Smallwood was in power in this province. Mr.

Chairman, as I said the other day, we have in this province at the moment, apart from the propoganda machine that has been set up, we have advertising agencies, agents running out of our ears. Why, Sir, they come into this building, they are so huge they can hardly get up in the ~447 ..... !:

June 14, 1972 Tape No, 786 NC - 2 elevators, They need a special elevator to bring them up to the eighth floor, Sir, costing the tax payers of this province a mint. A mint of money, Sir, at the expense, I submit, of the mothers of this province. Why not eliminate some of these unnecessary programmes, Sir~ these monkies on the backs of the tax payers of this province, and restore the mothers' allowance.

If I were in the honourable Minister of Education's shoes at this moment, I would lay my head in shame, and I would walk out through that door and I would pass my resignation into the Premier and I would say, " here, Sir, no thank you, I do not want to belong to an administration that will pick the pockets of the mothers at the expense, or set up these unnecessary programmes at the expense of the mothers in this province. But I doubt very much, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable Minister of Education will take my advice. I doubt it very much, Sir.

Obviously the hon. minister has a skin on him as thick as a rhinoceros .md I think that has been proven over the last couple of days, Sir. Any minister that could sit in his seat for the last two days and not squirm, Sir, I would say that the Minister of Finance is not the only one who has ice water in his viens. One point I want to make concerning the mothers' allowance Sir,before I take my seat, almost every speaker on the opposite side of the House spoke about the means test. We should not have had ,1 he mothers' allowance on a universal basis, It should have been subjected to the means test.

Mr, Chairman, the honourable Minister of Finance and every member on the opposite side of the House know full well that you had to apply for the mothers' allowance. It just was not sent out. A cheque was not sent out from the Minister's Office automatically to the mothers of the province. First of all if you did not get an application through the mail, the name submitted by the schools, you had to write into the Minister of Education and ask for an application, Now you know the honourable Member for Fortune Bay, Mr, Chairman, had the gall to stand 2(48

June 14, 1972 Tape No. 786 NC - 3 up and say, "human nature being what it is, what d id you expect these people to do but fill out their application s , ;-, cay up burning the midn.ight oil, fill out the application, send ~·- i n and get the mothers' allowance." MR ~ARLE :_ How many did not come in. ~--~EARY: Mr. Chairman, that is a good question. I do not know how many did not come in. I do not know if the minister, the honourable well-to-do Minister of Finance sent his in or rwt, Perhaps he could stand at his place in this House and tell us whether he did or not. I do not know,~r.

Chairman, if he has children going to school, I do not know how many other hon. members on the opposite side of th~ House sent their applications in to the Minster of Education for the mothers' allowance but Sir, they were not compelled to do it. It was not compulsory, It was voluntary, If the honourahle Membe. for St, John's South, another well-to-do gentleman, well-to-do lawyer, Sir, was interested in saving the tax payers of this province a few dollars, he nee.i not have sent his application in.

He could have said, "no, I am going to be patriotic, I am going to be charitable, I am not going to send that in hecause some poor mother out on the northeast coast may need that few dollars. " AN BON. MEMBER: Or John C, Doyle, MR. _NEARY: Or Spencer Lake, Mr. Chairman. Most expensive member in the House of Assembly today, $2,600,000. So, Mr. Chairman, I hope that I have said enough.

I co.uil.d say a lot more and I am sure a lot more will be said from this side of the House.and the honourable Minister of Finance may think the mothers of this province will forget but they will not forget, Mr, Chairman, They will not forget. "If we had an election tomorrow~• he says, "there would not be a member on that side of the House:' Mr, Chairman, the hon. minister 2449 ..

June 14, 1972 Tape No, 786 NC - 4 is looking at this province from the vantage point of Circular Road. He is out of touch with reality. He is out of touch, Sir. Out of touch with the masses of the people.

Sir, one thing I have to say before 1 sit down, I almost forgot this, this is a very si.gnificant thing, that the history of Tory Government in Newfoundland and in Canada and I suppose in Great Britian for that matter, is that they will promise the elector anything before an election, anything to get them into office, they will buy their way into office, but, Sir, the history,. and Your Honour can check this if he wants to and I would assume that Your Honour already knows because he is a student of history, that as soon as they get in office then they drop the benefits that they gave the electorate before getting electing and this is precisely what is happening in this case, Mr.

Chairman, So, Mr. Chairman, if L~~ honourable Minister of Finance does not reconsider I hope that the honourable Minister of Education has a little bit of a heart.

I hope, Sir, that the savoury really has not gone to his head and that he will reconsider instituting the mothers' allowance and that this September coming the mothers of this province will get the school allowance so that they can send their children to school well-dressed and be able to buy school books in the fall of the year, or the ones that they have to buy in the fall of the year when school re-opens, I beg and I plead with the Minister of Education, if he has a heart at all, Sir, I plead with him, You know Mr, Chairman, I would almost go across the other side of the House, I wuld almost go over,if there is a vacant seat over there, I would almost go over, I would almost, Mr, Chairman, go over and sit in the Minister of Finance's lap, The only thing I would be afraid of, Mr, Chairman, would be that he might slip me a pill, But I do hope, Sir, that the honourable Minister of Education will reconsider this

June 14, 19 72 Tape No. 786 NC - 5 matter. It in a very serious matter , Sir. It is not to be laµghed at. It 1.s a very serious matter. 1 would .like for the minister to recon sider, even if the ministe r hll.S to do it on the means test. and J do not ar,ree w1th a means test myself. l do not agree with it, 1 thi nk it s hould be universal. But U the minister thinks that the r.1eans test is the way to do it:, then Sir, I would suggest rhat he go ahead and do it. MR. EARLE: Mr . Chairma n, I did not intend t451 ,.:~ ·_:.:,_.

June 14, 1972 Mr. Earle Tape no, 787 Page 1 -MRW to have anything to say on this. There has already been too much said on the subject. It is rather amusing and in fact it is very amusing to find all the fuss and fury coming from the few remaining Liberals in this House.

Basically when you start to examine that the reason for all this fuss and fury is the same reason that the mothers' allowance was originally introduced, At that time I was not Minister of Education, I was Minister of Welfare until the succeeding minister, who just had so much to say, replaced that with a highfalutin title like Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation. It was not the same to call it Welfare at the time. However, that is by the way.

I was Minister of Welfare when this was introduced and incidentally before somebody on the other side gets up and says that he is responsible for it, that he was part of the government, I have accepted responsibility all the way along the line. But as I said in my earlier remarks, Mr. Chairman, on this particular subject, I was the one who suggested that it be attached to a means test, that there be some determining factor and that in other words it be given to the poor people and not to the wealthy people at that time.

Now that was not suggested in cabinet in case somebody over there thinks that I am breaking my cabinet oath. That was suggested outside cabinet. I was laughed out of court by the person who introduced it for this reason. The remark was made at the time,and this is very significant in the light of all the noise that is being made now: "For goodness sake, where is your political sense? Where is your political sense. Do you not realize that there are far more children and far more fathers and mothers of children than there are people on welfare?" Now carry that to its conclusion. Why was the thing introduced?

It was pure election bait at the time and it was out to get votes. Now what the honourable members on the other side are saying in effect is that by standing behind this and making so much fuss about it, they 2452

J unc> 14 , l ~ 7 2 Tape no. 787 l'ap;e 2 'Ir. f'arle think that eventually it will recover them _some votes. Hut the nic,thers ,m,l fathers of Newfound] and showed on !-brch '.:'4 and they wi L1 r;how ar,,!in that thev have awaken tn this !,i.nd of stupidity, Lhat there will be no social assistance, no mothP.rs' allowances or ,mything else in this province unless the financial affairs of t'lii, province are brourht into onler. As f,1 r as the few remarks about what Ottawa thinks of 11s and how thev mav or mnv not curtai 1 their pro>srammes, let me repe11t ,mother storv.

AN unt~. :1cm1cn: Annther confidential story, HR. EARLE: This is not a confidential storv. This was snid, ~1en I think at least l~O people wrrP rresrnr. lt was at th~ rpenin:~ of ti1~ llav d'Ef,noir HipJ,,.,;iv, The :,on. Tack Picl,,•rsp,ill •,·as thc·n· ;it the time and hundn•ds of other peo;,le were gathered ·;rn,rnd. At that time T was fi~hting for mv district tL' r•et the roads extended into Fortune Il;iv, T s;iid to Hr, Pickers~ill,in thP. hearin)' of manv people: "What Rbout some Otta,.ia money to have these roads c'xtended into Fortune Bay?" Do you know what ~Ir.

Pickersgill r2pl·.• was 1 in the l1earinp, of rlr. Smallwood at that time and many others: ",\ province that can afford to buy Czechoslovaki 11 Pavilions can bui 1 ,i its own roads." Now this is iust interpretatinrs of the thinking nf Ottawa. That was a Liberal speaking to a Liberal, mind you. How more obvio,m would that be if it were a Conservative speakinf~ to a Liberal? The fact is that Ottawa is fed up to the back teeth with what went on in this province.

When the honoun1ble members on the other si.de sav - NR, EARLE: Hhen the honourable members on the other side sav that the honourable p;entleman w:is part and parC"el, he admits it. But there is one thtnp- the honourable rentleman did have the guts to do and that Trns to get out of that monkev show, before the thing was completely _.....,, )',..,

June 14, 1972 Tape no. 787 Page 3 Mr. Earle. ruined. Last night I was referred to, Mr. Chairman, as hair-shirted. I cannot say - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. EARLE: I cannot say it kept me awake last night tryin~ to wonder what the reference meant. MR. CHAIRMAl~: I would ask the honourable member to remain relevant to the parents' subsidy, 604-04, which is being considered. MR. EARLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. r will try to keep it as relevant as I can. I did not answer the question last night.

The point i.s that in that reference to me 1 :1st night, which was later withdrawn, the fact that I am hai.r.shirted, at least I have to pull a shirt on to look like a monkey, some of the others do not. MR. CROSllIE: It is just as well to ~et some common sense into this .

In addition to my hon. colleague for Fortune Bay, I have some information for the honourable <>entlem .. n opposite, the one who is so worried, the one whose heart is so strained, whose sympathies are so outraged, whose sensibilities are so twisted by this cruel act and that is this: Ottawa has not said that the new Family Income Security Plan will not be in effect on .January 1, 1973. The deputv minister of the department has said, "within eight months after parliament passes this legislation, this can be enacted." It will take eight months because of their - they are blaming it on the computers.

That is what he said. Now the Liberal Party have a ma1ority in the I-louse of C:ommons of Canada. That legislation can be passed this month. There is no reason why it will not be passed this month,unless the Liberal Partv of Canada feel that it is not in its political interest to do so. If the legislation passes through the House of Commons and Senate in June, in eight months they will be able to start the cheques flowing from Ottawa 1 in January or February, 1973. There is no announcement from Ottawn that this is not going to be available in Januar.v, 1973. There is no reason

. , June 14, 1972 Tnre no. 787 Page 4 '-lr. Croshie whv it cannot be available in 197J. \·le do no! !•now th;,t it is 1,ot going to be available in 1973. Nr,w I kno"' honourable gentleman opposite are hopinr: and hoping :md hoping tlrnt they wiJ l hear that the Government of Canada are not r,oing to inst! tute this until I ate in 1973. That is what honourable pentle'llen are hoping ~,ecause thev thi.nkinr thev are making a little p0liticl'll mih,ap-e out of this issue. They are going tfl be fo0l.ed, '1R. ROHE (W,i~.):_ A point of order, 'Ir, Chairman.

Ts it in order for an hon0un1hle member of this House to imput<' that kind of motive to other honourable members? I would 1>ubmi.t th:it it !f; not, Sir. -~~ _ _fRO_S_B_1_1:'._:_ __ Well, nr. Chairman if it is in c,rder. I rertainly mean it. '·IR. CROSBIE: ·-- ·--- A HON, MEMBER: }Ill. CROSBIE: I will withdraw it, if he w;,nts me t.o withdniw it, Move out of the Chamber please. I am ?Oing to do that in a minute too. Nnw, Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman oppof,ite u,lkcd about our ] n for :na tj on Newfoundland l'ro~rammes that are f.O ing to cost a few skimpy dollar,a this vear.

It is the Government of Canada and the Liberal P.~rtv of Canada th,,t instituted that great institution: "Information Canada." It is just costing tens of millions of dollars, Here we have a little ''Information :--lewfoundland" set up which will cost perhaps 520,000 or $ 0 30,000 this year. That is all it ls r;oing to cost. MR. NEARY: How much are we p;iy J ng the - MR. CROSBIE: Fjnally, Mr. Chairman, when the honourable gentleman concluded he was talking about savory. There is one thing he is quite clear on, that there is no connection between savory and the hon . member from Bell Island, none at all. MR .

CARTER: Mr, Chairman, I th ink the points iin 604 have certainly been covered. As each honourable member from the opposition stands up to speak, I li.ke to make a few notes so that T ,:-rm rc•r l)• or that my reply can be p,e nnane. 2455 ... ,

June 14, 1972 Mr. Carter Tape no . 787 Page 5 In trying to make· a few notes ab-out the hon. gentlem an from Bell Islan d, I found that his speech was so entir elv devoid of content that I am faced with practically a blank s heet of paper. Therefo re, I am abo ut to sit down but before sitting down, l will recommend that 604-04 pass. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman , I hope I can be permitted to deviate a little but there are 1ust one or two remarks that I would like to refer to which were made by the hon . Minister of Educati on and the hon. Ministe r of Finance .

The Minister of Finance stated the fact that we may, if we continue the wild spe ndinr. that the previous adminiRtration had been carryin~ on , drift back to Commission of r.overomen t or Commis,;ion by Q>vernment. What he means by that I do not know . Surely, the hon. Minister of Finance i.s not insinuating that this government will ~o back to Commission of r.overnmcnt, either govern ed by Ottawa or the form of Commission.

Now if that is his policy and he is determined to save a few paltr y dollars at the expcmse of the mothers' allowance or any orher necesRary expendi t 11re; or that we may be forceJ to 11:0 back to Commis!3ion c:overnment , what II ind of thinkinr. is that from the Mini!3ter of finance? Sir, T just c:mnot take i.t in. Now the hon. :linister nf l~duc11tion,

June 14, 1972 Tape 788 PK - 1 }!R • WINSOR~ in ,his usual subtle, sarcastic way sa i d-, you all on the opposition side should hang your heads in shame because of the way in which your previous administration wasted, spent the money here before we came into power. Should I hang my heacl in shame because I was the instigator and in co-operation with the previol's administration to bring modern schools to the Eskimos of Northern Labrador? Should I hang my head i~ shamefor bringing sc hools to the unfortunate Indians of Labrador?

Should I hang my head in shame today that the people in Bonavista Bay, in Wesleyville,where I was horn, can get in a car and drive to Gamho or drive all over Newfoundland? When I was growing up we had to walk fifty mi l es to make connection with the train? Should I hanp: my head in shame or should the honourable "inister of Education hang hi s head in shame? r ~hink if there is anyone to hang his head in sl-.ame in this respect it is the honourable minister. Sir, this is only one of the many things that I could state that I have no reason to hang my head in shame.

I go around this province with my head high and I am very proud that I was associated with a government with the type of leader that we had for twenty-three years. MR. r,t'ARSHALI:.:_ On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would submit he is not really relevant to the paren~'subsidy which is being considered at the present time. Mr. Chairman, whether the honourable member has to hang his head in shame or not - AN HON. MEMBER: Justification - MR. ~fAR_SRALL: _ Justification of the previous administration has nothinr: to do with parents I subsidy. MR. ROWE, W.N. Mr. Chairman, may I speak on the point of order. }tr.

Chairman, the point made by the honourable House Leader may or may not be a valid point - may or may not 1 that is for Your Honour's decision. But , Sir , I would submit that even if it is technically out of order, it certainly is in order for an honourable member on ,-.

June 14, 1972 Tape 788 PK - 2 MR. ROWF., W.N. this side of the House to make comments on matters raised by a member on that side of the House ~specially when the minister, in this case who rai s ed the matter,was not called to order by the Chair . Surely, Sir . that is in order, for him to answer some allegation or some statement made which in tum was not called out of order by the Chair. MR. CllAifilfAN: The honourable member for White Bay South is not quite correct. A point of order has been raised with respect to the relevancy of the honourable member's course of speech preceding the point of order.

Now grant it, if the honourable the minister raised a matter that was out of order, the Chair should have ruled it out of order at the time or any honourable member can stand up and bring it to the attention of the Chair , if the Chair omits to noti .ce at the time that the honourable the minister is out of order. However, the fact that one honourable member or honourable minister gets away wi.th a matter that is out of order does not permit another member to rely on that as a precedent when this is contrary to the ~tandin .g Orders of the House.

The 8tanding Orders of the House say that on discussion of the specific heads of expenditure the debate must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration. The Chair should also point out at this time that there was a great amount of leeway given in the initial debate, the debate on the mini s ter's salary and that the Chair has to comply with the Standing Orders of the House and the purpose of the Startling Order is to permit the business of the House to be expedited.

This Standing Order says that speeches in Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration. Now this applies to honourable members on both sides of the House. If the Chair omits to call to order an honourable member when he i s out of order,then the Chair would ask another honourable member to bring it to his attention at the time that this is done. Rut the 24r.8

.J11ne 14. 1972 Tape 788 PK - 3 H1\_._3_01,JE,_.!::_.~ honourable member was stuyinp. from f,!14-04 · Parents' suhsidy,and I would ask the honourahle member to keep this in l'lind i.n an attempt to remain relevant i.n the debate. }lR . WINSOR: --- - -- Mr. Chairman. I have no inter,i:ions r•f drifting from the item in quest:l.on, Eut the honourable Min ,ater of Education. Sir, brought the matter up and used as an excuse for cutting out these fawi.ly allowances our wastefulnesA when we were :l.n ~overnment. Now, Sir. when I started to speak I saicl J may have to deviate a little. nut.

Sir, if there is anyone out of order. :It ~••as the honourable minister himself. I have no further remarks to make. nut I can assure the honourable Minister of Education and also the honourable l-finister of Finance that they are under a delusion if they think that th" mothers of tliis province are not thinl:.ing very seriously of their action.

I i ust came hack from the Fogo District and T can a:,sure you and I l••ould advise the honourable Minister of Finance that I would suggest to him that he refrain from going into Musgrave Harbour, 0 Lwnsden or any part of Gander Bay for at least another year or Ao, until this matter settles do~m. So. 'fr. Chairman, T can assure the honourable Hinister of Finance that he is living under a false impression, if he thinks that cutting out the mothers'allowance is a justifiable thing by the mothers of this province, I can assure him, Sir. it is not. It is very unpopular.

I would also suggest to him that before September that he persuade, T know the honourable Minister of Finance is not easily persuaded hut he may, he mav use the old Salvation Army technique of singing the hymen "Almost Persuaded," he may do that sometime and reinstate the family allowances. <, }'fR. CRO~Bil': i'1r. Chairman, I do not intend to put up with any threats, There is no part of this province that Jam afraid to set foot on today, that I would be afraid to set foot on tomorrow or that I would ever he afraid to set ,foot on. I have been everywhere 2459

June 14, 1972 Tape 788 PK - 4 MR. CROSBIE: in this province and I am prepared to go anywhere in the province tomorrow - Musgrave Harbour, Dotting Cove, Fogo Island, Northwest River, anywhere in this province today and I do not think I need fear anything, no matter where I go. There may be people disagree with what this government are doing or what I do or what I say, but there is nowhere in Newfoundland that I am afraid to show my face and you can be assured of that. MR. WINSOR: I did not insinuate that the honourable minister should fear for his life.

But I can assure him that he will be facing some of the most aggravated and tormented mothers that we would rather he not meet than meet. MR. CROSBIE: I would like to say this, Mr. Chairman, if that is so, if that is so, and if there are aggravated mothers in Newfoundland, I am quite prepared to send them a copy of the budget speech and to discuss with them why we are in the condition we are in today.

Furthermore, I predict this that within a year's time when the Family Tncome Security Plan of Canada is in effect and they are receiving much more and much better assistance in a much more satisfactory manner, they will - AN HON. MEMBE~· Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Why do they not get on with it. Why do they not move on with it. They have slacked off in the last two or three months. When they are receiving those increased benefits in a better way and a more logical way from a government that has a treasury that can afford them, they will be no longer aggravated. That is my belief. MR. ROWE, F.B. Mr.

Chairman, in the course of his remarks, the honourable member for Fortune Bay1 who was a member of the previous administration,is partly responsible for the introduction of the mothers'allowance, it was said quite clearly 2460

June 14, 1972. Tape 789, Pap.;e 1 -- apb in this House, that the ~1others' Allowances were broup.ht in on a purely political basis. for purely political motives, is that correct? Sir. I would like to ask the honourable member whether he feels !here was any need at all for the Mothers' Allowances to start off with. The honourable member for Fortune Bay, whether there was any need? Would he p.;et up and answer that Question. MR. EARLE: May I be permitted to answer that, ~r. Chairman. hecause it is relative to the vote.

The fact, as I put it at the tirne,and this I should like to make abundantly clear, that instead of the ~'others' Allowances, I was all in favour of helpinµ, the poor neople, That is why I suggested that it whould be done on a means test. The way I suggested it was that you raise the social assistances allowances because, this was s11nity of the first order. If we h.'.lrl '::iised the social assistance allowances, we would hc1ve recovered half of it, fifty percent of it from Ottawa. As it is now. all of this, one hundred percent is cominr out of the pockets of the Provincial Government.

Theref'ire, the way to help poor people,and this is actually a welfare measure. the way to help people is where you get the most help,from Ottawa. AN HON. ~ffiMBER: (First

part inaudible) for a specific purpose? ~'R. EARLE: r1n . F • B • ROWE : \es. one specific purpose, it was to p;et votes at the time. 1'r. Speaker, there was a need, I think that the honourable member has suggested generally that there was a need for it, therefore, Sir., I submit that it was T'Ot purely a political move on the part of the previous administration, even if it were?

Sir, in the eloouence of debate on this particular subhead. the honourable Minister of Education still hc1s not p.otten around (probably it has just slipped his mind) to answerinr the question I put to him earlie .r rep.;ardinp.; what would happen or what would his intentions bc,if in fact this FISP is delayed for a period of eip.;ht, nine, ten or eleven or twelve months? I hope - the ~inister of Finance was sup.;gestin~ that we are hoping that it will be delayed. That is utter nonsense on his part. But, Sir, I would honestly 2461

June 14, 1972, Tape 789, Page 2 -- apb like to know what the intentions of this present administration are if in fact his FIS programme is delayed. MR. CARTER: First of all, Mr. Chairman, that is a hypothetical question and I do not feel that it is very relevant to give a hypothetical answer. All I can say is that there is no doubting the need for the Mothers' Allowance today and there is no doubting the need for it tomorrow, next week, next month, next year. I would hope that FISP (we will call it FISP now for the sake of brevity) would be instituted as soon as possible.

Earlier in this specific part of this debate, I mentioned the fact that hardly a day goes by but a new enormity is uncovered, left over from the previous administration. Since it is impossible to predict with any certainty just how many insects will fly out of this ;Pandora's Box" now that the cover is being pried off, it is very, very difficult for me to forecast what I would or would not do six months hence. !1_R_-:_!l_~A_RY: Mr. Chairman, it would be a very easy matter indeed for the Minister of Education or my old sparring buddy the Minister of Finance, who seems to be in an awfully bad mood today. AN HON.

MEMBER: Wednesday is his cranky day. !'-'R. NEARY: Wednesday is his cranky day, Mr. Chairman. It would be a very easy matter indeed, Sir, for either one of these hon. gentlemen to leave this House now, go out to the telephone, take up the phone, charge the call up to their office down stairs in their department, call up the hon. Mr. Munro, Minister of National Health and Welfare, say ✓, John:' or ''honourable Sir,"' or'\i:r.

Minister' .' whatever the honourable Minister of Finance wants to call him, call him up and say; "Is it true, we have a debate going on in the House and we have to confirm this because whether the ~others of this province will get their allowances in September or not depends on the answer that you are going to give me now on the telephone. Is it true, Sir, that the FIS programme, the Family Income Security ·PrograI1111te has been postponed for one year'! Is this true or is it false?" 2(62

June 14, 1972, Tape 789, PAge 3 -- apb I know }'Ir. Munro personally and I feel certain. ~iir. that he would p.ive either minister an honest and frank answer. Now then. Sir, if the hon. minister of Finance does no:: , .it tu do it nor the hon. Minister of Education does not want to ,;c, it, if they would find a telephone for me, and I know Mr. J\'funro personally, I h11.ve been at several Federal-Provincial conferences, Sir, as a matter of fact, Sir. I had a lot to do with originatinP; the FIS programme. AN HON . ~mMBER: (Inaudible) - -~ ---- - -- ------ MR.

NF.ARY: So. if the Jl,finister of Finance ... - - - ---- -- - - AN HON .. 'ff~.fBER • (Inaudible) l'r. Chairmm, the hon. Tl'emher for ~t. John's Centre has arrived had. Glory hallelujah! dory hallelu_i<1h ! !-'_!? .. _ },:_IJJ_P_!lY· (Inaudible) !'.R. _N_Ef'.T-J_: The honourable minister has been too busy with other matters, He is not terribly concerned about the mothers of this province. Oh, that is ripht! Wt. !-'URPlIY: l·!R . NEARY : l~ten he was a little boy down on Flower Hill, J\'fr. Chairman, he was concerned about the mothers of this province. But now that he is •.• '-fP-.

MURPHY: I told the government three years aro what to do with the Pothers' Allowance. :t-lR. NEARY· Now that the honourable ... - ----- - sm,E HON. '-iE~IBERS: --- -- - . ___________ , Sit down, sit down. .M,R . __ N}'.!',It_Y_ · Now. Mr • Chairman , MR. CHAIRMAN· Order! ~I_F ..-... B_EAPJ.: 1-'r. Chairman, could I carry on? ~:....rYR_P_l!_Y_:_ Mr. Chairman, I object, Sir, to .•• MR. NEARY: Now that the honourable minister can stub his toe on a - ------ - - swimminp: pool, Mr. Chairman, he is not particularly concerned about the mothers of this province. _MR._ CHAIR~ftN:_ Order! But, Sir, as I started to say ••.

MR. NEARY: ~r. Chairman. T think that it is my privilege to discuss ~463

June 14, 1972, Tape 789, Page 4 -- apb this matter of the Mothers' Allowance without interruption from the honourable and 1 was roing to say ignorant, well I think ignorant is parliamentary, Sir, ignoramus is not ••• JlfR. CARTER: Point of Order, Sir, I think we established yesterday or perhaps it was the day before that once all the points have been covered (we are sticking of course to snecific subheads here) unless the honourable member can bring up some new points or shed some new light or. the debate, that his continuing to hold forth constitutes a mischievious obstruction. Therefore, I would submit, Mr.

Chairman, that the hon. gentleman should assist us to move on to the next item. ~~NEA~Y_-_ ~r. Chairman, that is not a Point of Order, Sir. The honourable minister still has the smell of manure in his nostrils. Coming into this House, Sir. Mr. Chairman, I was raising a new matter a new point,Sir, MR. HICKEY: Point of Order, }fr. Chairman ••• 1''1R. NEARY: Oh now we are going to have the Point of Order, Mr. Chairman, now we are going to have it. MR. RICKEY, The honourable member raised a new matter, he used unoarliamentary language.

When he takes back what he called the Minister of Education, that is the new matter he raised, calling someone a clown. 1-!R. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is not a Point of Order, If I were the - - --- honourable minister I would go down and try to hook up that light in Tapper's Cove in Torbay. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! order! The honourable member is not speaking to the Point of Order at this point. Does the honourable member want ••. SOME HON. ¥£MEERS:_ Sit down, sit down. MR. NEARY: -------- There is no Point of Order, Mr. Chairman, there is no Point of Order, Sir. AN HON. tffi~qJER · Sit down. MR.

CHAIR~fAN, The honourable Minister of Edtication raised, as, I understood 2464

June 14. 1972. Tape 789. Page 5 -- aph the Point of Order, that there is,as referred to on pa: e 1n1 of Beauchesne, the rules of debate in the FE'deral Pa..-J.iainc; ,t and ours are fllso similar,"that the Spe.:iker o•· the rhairm,qn aftr·r havJnr calJPd the attention of the Pouse or of the Committee t.o l:: ,e concnc:t of r memher who persj sts in f.rrelevanc e or repe t:1 r. i.c , Now the only re,1son I refer to this Standinp Order js hecatme this i.s thr onJv place where I can find the rule referrE'd to,"lr-ainst rpnetiti0n.

As this is t"e Point of l)rder wMch I utiderstand the !"inister of F.rl11cat1on to havp r:lised, T would ask the honourable member for Rell Jslanrl to avoid rE'oetition,and ap:11.in, to rel'.lain strictly r£>levant to the itell' or cl11.use under consideration. t,-fR. NF.J\f-/V• ~'r. Chairman, than!< vou verv much for that ruJ fnp. Tf I . ---- - were the honourable Minister of Social Services I would ro do":n and try to p:et that by-election held in Pouch rove, fill up that vacancy on the Town Council. t"R. HICKEY: ~ ---- -- 'fr. Chairman, 1ust a minute, ~'r.

Chairman, Pouch Cove 1s not my concern, Torbay is 1 and I sup.p.est to the hon. gentleman ... }IP, ._ N_Ej,_RY_·_ Is this a Point of Order, Hr. Chairman? Vi~. HICKEY: If he wants to p:o fishinp., fine. but mind his own husiness. ~"' • NE./1 pv: Is this a Point of Order, Sir. ~-•P. CHAIR}'AN: The honourahle member for Bel] Island may contjnue. MR. NF.AR.V· Now. Sir, I starte~ to say, and this js very important. !A"r. Chairman, because we have - the Committee has to have an answer from Ottawa. Is the FIS programme poinp. to he postponed for one year or is it not? That seems to be the ouestion before the Committee.

Now, I volunteered if the ninister of Finance does not wmt to picJ,: up the phone and call the honourable J'r: }lunro and the l'linister of Education does not want to do it, I will volunteer to do it, Sir. I will volunteer to do it provided, Hr. Chairman, that we can postpone the passing of this ite.~ until we get thP. answer from Mr. :Munro that we need. MR •• CHAIRMAN'. I could maybe f:ave the honourable member some time and the 2465 ..... , --

June 14, 1972, tape 789, Page 6 -- apb price of the phone call. There is a rule of the House which states that a statement made in this House cannot be contradicted by a statement by a person who is not a member of this House. Now, I do not know if this is what the honourable member would be attempting to do. As I understand it, the honou rable Minister of Finance has stated what the position is.

Now, I do not think that we can bring in a statemen~even if it be from a member of the Federal Parliament , because that person is not a member of this House, if this is being brought in to contradict the statement of the honourable Minister nf finance. \fR. NEARY: What the minister of Finance really said was,the day I asl<ed him the ouestion ori~inally, he said; "Clnce it is confirmed from Ottawa that the ns pro~rnmme is goinit to be postponed for one year . then the ~overnment would reconsider reinstatinJ? the ~,others' Allowance in September coming.' That is what the minister said, 24G6

June 14, 1972. Tane 790 a i'. · I . hut the minister has made no attemnt,Sir, this ic: the noint Tam makinl!, :ohodv in his adminis.rati,~n has made anv attempt to have this confirmed or denied. committee does not know. Is it truP ' We do not know, Sir, the Therefore, Mr. Chai rm, ·n, I would sav that we have no choj ce hut to defer this item unti 1 ~•e have confirmation of whether or not the ": n ,·opra!l'me J s p.oinr to he nostnoned for one vear. Now. Sir, I think the honourahle >iinister o" Finance knows what is causirr tlie delay in the FIS r,ror.ramme.

It ts not the fact th~t the r.overnment of Canada, as he ri~htly µointecl out, has a suh '< tant1al.ly mo re w,a] thv treasury than the nrc;vince of Newfoundland. That i_s a statement of fact. That ls not the reason for the delJ·· . Sir. The reason for the delav J suhmit :o the committee is r:eca ; se of the actministr,iti.ve nroblems involved in granting or alterin<" the family ,1.llow:rnce :md implementjnp. a means test, Thin i:, hasicallv what is h:10nenin!!, Sir, wi.th the family ;illowance nropramme. They ,, ··e now ba~inr it on a mr~ns test.

Nm·, ';,~ C:overnment of C.i:inad;i is on the horns o~ a di lemma, Sir 1 becau.se of the admin1str;1ti.ve problems and difficulti.es t.,at :1, -:> i.nvolv<'d 1n imr>lementinl? the Ff" Propramme with a means test. They <lo not J,r,ow whether i. t should he taxah le, Sir. They do not k: , (';W whPther tlw mothers' c1llowance should be suh;ected to income tax. They re-~11·• do not know how to go about it, Sir, They do not k , ow whether the income, the new familv allowance is hased on the income of families. Thev do not know whether they should get the information from the income tax people or not,Sir.

This is what is holding un the FIS Pro~rammP, Politics does not enter into it,Sir, It has nothing: to do with no] i. ti cs, nothi.nJ!: to do with the fact that the Gove·, ·nment of Canada does not have the monev or they have the monev. It is the fact 2467

.T,,,ne 14, 1972. Tape 790 Page 2. that they have to try to figure out a way to implement the FIS Programme and I would suggest, Sir, that it is going to take the Government of Canada and all the expertise that they have in the Department of National Health & Welfare several months yet before they can work out the details, So, I would sugge~t Mr. Chairman, if it is in order, that we defer carrying this item until somebody on the opposite side either calls Mr.

Munro or call one of the - until the honourable minister has - (inaudible) Can we defer this item MR.NEARY: No, Mr, Chairman, that is not satisfactory I want to hear what the Minister of Education has to say about this and I want to hear what the Minister of Finance has to sav ahout it, Mr, Chairman, we need informatton in this committee and we are not getting it. The Honourable Minister of Education will not give us the information. I tell you what,Mr.

Chairman, in order to save time, save the committee's time, if the committee will a~ree to a ten minute recess I w:!.11 p;o out in the Opposition office and I will call Mr, Munro - MR.MURPHY: Mr. r.hairman, how long do we have to put up with this? 1/e are discussing an estimate.It is here set out. The minister is looking for this money - MR.NEARY: Mr, Chairman, MR CHAIRMAN: The honourable ~ember is tending to be somewhat repetitious on this noint of the phone call to the gentleman in Ottawa.

I would ask the honourable member to continue but again keeping in mind the rules as to relevancv and repetition, !-1R.NEARY: I am only trying to be helpful to the committee,Mr. Chairman. If we could have a ten minute recess I would gladly go out, get on the phone and call Mr. Munro and find out 0 I would have him tell me. I could have one of the ministers on the extension 1 and tell us whether or not 2468

June 14, 1972, Tape 790 Page 3 , the FIS Programnc is r.oing tn come in the first of J 1muary or will it he postponed for one year. offer, Sir. I think that i s a nrettv fair and reasonahle ~R.THOMS: '·1r.

Chairman, before we pass there are a couple of comments T would like to make, I agree with the honourahle member for Bell Island ,hat on this subiect of 604-04 the oresent Mini ster of Education is out of touch Fith the nrovince and ,-Tith the mothers of this nrovince, because it i.s definitely important and it is definitely necessarv to a vast majority of the mothers of our province that the y receive this parents'subsidv in September, It is r art1culad .y necessary to the people or to the parents who are of low jncome bracket. I am sure the honourable mPmber for St.

John's Centre realizes - "-'ll,J\fURPl!Y: T do not know anything at all about j_t, t-'ll. THOMS: I am g'. ad vou sav You do not know anvthing ahout it hecause I uill put vnu right on the spot. ~r. r.hairman, to a man in St, Brendan's who this vear has seven children _going to school and who has an income of 1.esR than S4 ,000 this narents subsidv i s .'rinortant. It is necesi:;ary ber.anse this person, this parent, this mother cannot afford to huv the clothe~ 1 the hookR,the boots and all the other things to send their children to school in the winter to come.

I am sure t .,e honourable member for St, John's Centre realizes this, although he will not admit it. He realize::; it 1 but he will not admit it, J. am glad yon said vou do not know the first thinr- about it, It is only one of the few things that the hono11r11ble gentleman does not know ver y much about. Mr. r.hairman, 'In 'tf!! 0 •. ening to the Minister of EducatJon I wai:; verv disapnointed in one of the statements which he raised, when he said th:it the past administr<'ltion was a rotten administration. I wonder did the min'lster realize what he was sayinl!?

He t.ras 'In fact call 1.nP. three nf his colleagues rotten he cause 2469 ....

June 14, 19n. Tane 790 they were part of that administration . As a matter of fact they were a huge nart of that administration . If these three gentlemen were part of the nrevi.011s administration,then does he i ndi c;ite that they are now oart of a rotten administration or are they just a rotten

section of the oresent administration? minister said. This is what the honourable MR.MORhAN: Point of order, Mr. Chainnan, what has that to do with the parents' s uhsidy wh1.ch we are now dir;cussin11. 6011-0t,: "IR.CllAIRMAN: With resoect to the point of order, the point of order was well taken. 1'he honourable member is asked again to keep in mind Standinr. Order 44 (

b) which says that','speeches must be strictly relevant to the 1.tem or claus e under consideration." }ffi.THOMS: Thank you, 'Ir. Chairman , foi:- your rulin~. I trust that you will give me the same latituJe as the hon.ourable Minister of Education w11s given when he called the previous administration"a rotten administration~• Therefore J suer.est that he ts in fact calling three of the pi:-esent­ MR . CHAIRMAN: The rulino has been macle that the honourable member ts out of order in 2470

June 14, 1972 Tape 791 JM - 1 that this line of dehate is not strictly relevant to item 604(04). MR. THOMS:_ Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Another pojnt which the honourabl c:­ Minister of Education brought up was when he said that ! he presf'nt administration had dropped seven per-cent on children's clothin~ and he compared the seven per-cent with the parents'subsidy. I would subnit. Mr. Chairman, that the seven per-cent is not seven per ·-cent of the children's clothing who go to school.

The seven per-cent is only partially off the children's clothinp, because I have a 'oy fourteen years old and I have to pay seven per-cent taxes on his clothes. The seven oer--cent only comes to a certain size of certain clothine and. 'Mr. Chairman, there are grown men and I know one man in plirticular who today can fit himself out with tax free clothes while my child, I have to pay taxes on his clothes, Therefore 1 submit to you, Mr. Chairman, that our oarents today will not make up for the parents subsidy on the seven oer- ·cent dropped by the previous administration. I fail to see, Mr.

Chairman, how the Minister of Education can conscientiously drop theparents'subsidy when it is so vitally needed by so many of our people of today. Of course, maybe this is pa rt of the Tory philosophy. I noticed in the co'ITITTlents of the Minister of Finance,when he indicated that if we do not retrieve this $3.2 million from the parents of our province,that maybe our credit ratin~ on the money markets of this world will be. in j eonardy. Just imagine, Mr. Chairman, we are spending this year a total of S5~9.2 million and do you think that $3.2 million will put our credit rating in jeonardy?

Nonsense, utter nonsense. MR . NEARY: ------- The minister is shaking his head. Of course then the Minister of Finance comes up with the phrase that if we have to give this $3.2 million of parents' subsidy to the mothers of this province this province may have to go 2471

June 14, 1972 Tape 791 JM - 2 hack to a Commission Government, back thirty-eight years. MR. NEARY: What a joke. !>!~_'!!{OMS:..._ What utter nonsense, Mr. Chairman. How can he compare this with the parents'subsidy. MR. CHAIRMAN, Order! MR. CARTER: The honourable member is being mischievously obstructive I would submit 1 and I propose that we move on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Education is again, I assume, referring to the rule with respect repetition.

The honourable member's attention is drawn to the fact that these items have been discussed extensively and debated thoroughly and I would ask the honourable member to keep this in mind,to continue with his speech but to keep in mind the rule with respect to relevancy and repetition. ~~ _!_IiQ_MS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I accept your ruling. Mr.

Chairman, I sincerely plead with both the Minister of Finance and particularly the Minister of Education that he do all in his power in the coming months ahead to reinstate thispar~nts'subsidy and that when Septemher or October comes that he will be able to come out and announce to the parents of this province that the parentB' subsidy will be reinstated. If he has to, Mr.

Chairman, go in to the next cabinet meeting and if he has to knock his fist on the table and demand it, show to us that he is a man and not a mouse,which is apparent from this because he has apparently allowed the Minister of Finance to overrule him, he has apparently submitted to the Minister of Finance. I hope and trust, Mr. Chairman, that the Premier will not think him a weakling in some way or other and put him in the junior cabinet because I would hate to see anyone on my right here try to take his place.While I believe he is doing a blundering job,they may even do a worse job especially as far aspa