Manitoba Hansard — 7 May 1974 (Sitting 118, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-118

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 7:30 o'clock, Tuesday, May 7, 1974 SUPPLY -A TTORNEY -G ENERAL 32 17 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Department of the Attorney -General. Resolution 20. The Honourable the Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY : Mr. Chairman, first I would like to deal -- well I'll leave the remarks. Maybe the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell will be here a little later. We'll sta rt with the questions posed by the Honourable the Member from Swan River. The Honourable Me mber for Swan River asked whether or not there had been an increase in Manitoba during the past year.

The statistics which we have available to us indicate there has been a very minor increase over 1972, 1. 2 percent increase, but there has been insofar as major crime has been concerned, there has in effect been a decrease in major crime in Manitoba over the past year. I will not assume responsibility for that how.Jver. The second point is in respect to jails and penitentiaries. It is the responsibility of the Health and Social Development Department and the Federal Govern ment. I'm not aware of any overcrowding in our jails and penitentiaries.

Possibly when we get to the Estimates of the Minister of Health and Social Develop ment he would be able to deal more extensively with the populations and the crowding, or lack of crowding in the local penitentiaries--(lnterjection) - Well if there is crowding, yes. In respect to drug enforcement and prosecution, this again is a federal responsibility but Manitoba does however share the cost of drug squad. Three additional RCMP have been added to the drug squad this April. It now brings a total of 31 members of the RCMP which are involved in the drug squad in Manitoba.

The Member for Fort Rouge had raised questions in respect to difficulties in processing plans of subdivision. The information which I have is that as far as the Land Titles Office is concerned there really is no delay caused by the Land Titles Office. If the plan of subdivision is completed properly, receives the necessary municipal approval, and approval from other branches of government that are involved in respect to the approval, the Lands Title Office should be able to process the documents within a two-week period, except during the summer period. This is where there has been problems.

During the past summer, vacations and illness, and the heavy increase in the number of registrations, all coalesced to cause a problem last July and August, early September, in the Winnipeg Lands Titles Office. It's true that during that period of time there were delays of four or five weeks.

We hope to have managed to overcome that this co ming summer to a large degree, making it possible for overtime involvement and the hiring of additional staff to the Land Titles Office to prevent that type of situation from occurring, which certainly is one that none of us could be proud of, but the Land Titles Office presently are signing documents, it's my understanding, which registered about two weeks ago. So I think that is quite reasonable considering all the circumstances. Once it's in excess of two weeks, then certainly concern ought to be expressed. MR.

BILTON : I wonder if the Honourable Minister would permit a question before he gets too far gone. I don't want to interrupt him unduly. But he did say that the drug squad was increased, but he didn't say whether the consumption of drugs in the province was on the in crease or not. MR. PAWLEY : Mr. Chairman, to be quite direct and frank with the honourable member, I certainly suspect that the incidence of drugs has increased. The fact is however that this is often reflected with the increase in the amount of personage attached to the drug squad.

There is a rate of increase which is often proportionate to the increase in the drug squad. Now whether or not it's because of the increase in the actual use of drugs, or due to an improvement in the detection of those that are trafficking and those in possession of drugs, is open to debate. But certainly the number convicted and charged with drug offence increase. Whether or not it's actually an increase in use is a matter I think--(Interjectio n)--W ell, Mr.

Chairman, I think that we are all concerned about the use of drugs and it's something that there is a desire I think throughout Canada to try and co mbat, the use of drugs, the flagrant use of drugs, and the effects of the drug trade, and in the same way that we're concerned about the abusive use of li quor and alcohol. The question was raised about the detoxification. . . .

3218 May 7, 1974 SUPPLY -A TT ORNEY -G ENERAL MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Br andon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, while the Minister's answering the question, he went from the subject of drug abuse crimes to a question on the difficulty in obtaining appr oval of pl ans in subdivisions. Now are we still on the Attorney-General or when he answered that question was he referring to some questions that were placed previously in connection with Municipal Affairs? MR.

PAWLEY: No, I was dealing with the Honou rable Member for Fort Rouge that had indicated that there was holdups in respect to Land Titles Offices pr ocessing of titles, and my response was that the Land Titles Office presently are processing documents within a two-week period. However, this has to take place after the approvals of the plans .of subdivisions and sometimes delay there in processing the app rovals of the subdivisions can sometimes be incorr ectly att ributed to the Land Titles Office. Detoxification Cent res.

The figures which I have indicate that last year 500, 000 , in excess of 500, 000 was spent in operation of programs involving detoxification centres in Manitoba. This year in excess of $ 800, 000 will be spent plus $ 800, 000 in capital in detoxification cent res in the province. I would just like to mention here though that this too falls within the purview of the Department of Health and Social Development and certainly there would be an area for further discussion when that Depa rtment's Estimates are dealt with as to the success of that program. The question of legal aid.

Approximately 75 percent of the present legal aid budget is being spent on fees for service to the profession itself and 25 percent of the money spent on legal aid is being paid to staff lawyers in the legal aid clinics. We have recently imposed maximum prepar ation fees in respect to lawyers working for legal aid. We feel that it was a proper move to make, that a case, a serious major case before the assizes, for instance, should take an experienced lawyer a certain number of hours in order to process.

Not wishing to place any un reasonable maximum we felt it was very important that there be some maximum imposed to prevent excessive charging. So within the space of the last month, I guess it is, we have imposed maximum prepar ation fees on certain cases handled by lawyers working for legal aid. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge had mentioned his concern about just what direction legal aid was moving in the pr ovince, was it moving away from the private bar to a public de fender system or not.

I think that the experience of the Manitoba Legal Aid Society, which by the way the board is a co mbination of representatives from government and from the Law Society, is a combination of both interested groups within legal aid in Manitoba and it acts in an inde pendent manner , has been probably the best choice for Manitoba. It has insu red one's choice of lawyer within reasonable li mits.

It's gone a middle course between the situation in Ontario where 100 percent, I under stand, of all money,.spent on legal aid is paid to the private bar and the other extremes which are represented by Prince Edwar d Island and Quebec where most of the money is spent in more or less a public defender system. And there's a place for both types of legal aid.

Certainly the Legal Aid Clinic is ve ry important insofar as providing lawyers to represent those in juvenile and family court matters, those of meagre income and assets; often people who a private lawyer would not want to take the time or effort or en ergy in representing in juvenile or family cou rt, and yet it is in that court I think that pr obably some of the most important decisions are reached, are determined insofar as a family, child ren are concer ned for the future well-being.

It's an important court yet it has been too long neglected by the legal pro fession in representation because it hasn't paid too often to represent clients there when the re's opportunity to represent clients elsewhere. So this is a real area where the legal aid clinics can provide a real worthwhile task.

I would like to mention another example where I think that - and though I disagree with the decision, the recent decision by Justice Hunt which related to the Automobile Insurance Act - I would like to tell the Member for Souris Killarney that it was a lawyer in a legal aid clinic that represented the pa rty that appealed to the court and with my knowledge appealed the de cision re the surcharges to the Court of Queen's Bench and was successful. And it may cause me considerable -- ! must admit that during the quiet moments of my day I shed a few tear s over what has happened, to think that an agency or

section of my department should have caused Autopac such grief, but that is the type of case that I think there is a meaningful role for a legal aid clinic to be prepar ed to take amatter , though there may not be a lot of money involved - here it was $ 300 - yet there was an impo rtant principle that was involved. I think tenants groups and others must have great need of the Legal Aid Clinic. There is ce rtainly pa rts of rural

May 7, 1974 3219 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ... Manitoba where there is a shortage of legal services and here is an area of expansion as far as a legal ai d cl inic, ce rtainly the poorer areas of the City of Winnipeg need for legal ai d cl inics. So I have no doubt that there is an impo rtant funct ion and role for the legal aid cl inic as well as for the pr ivate bar in Ma ni toba. MR. AXWORTHY : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Mi nister would take a question? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Member for Fort Rouge. MR.

AXWORTHY : On your defini tion of the vari ous tasks to be performed by the legal aid office rs, is there any intention to expan d their scope into tak ing legal action on behalf of environmen ta l cases so that-- for example, in the City of Winnipeg, chal lenges to the City of Winnipeg on its environ mental impact or lack of environ mental impact studies, is there an y ind icati on that legal aid officers would be avai lable for supporti ng citizen groups or environ mental groups who wish to take action in these respects? MR.

PAWLEY : If the groups are indigent, then the Legal Aid Clinic would be available to them to provide such service and I believe in fact there may be something possibly in the offing right now in respect to that. But ce rtainly if they meet the criteri a, the Lega l Aid Clinic is avai lable to groups such as that. The criteri a was asked as to what groups econ omically are entitled to legal ai d and I would refer members to Page 13 of the 1972-73 Annua l Report, Page 13 ,

Section 3 (

a) of the Act states that the Act was designed to furnish legal aid without cha rge to any ind ividual who is unable to pay therefor and with a par t ial charge to an y ind ividual who is able to pay a portion of the cha rge. Then at the top of Page 14 is the allowable ann ual gross inc ome which vari es from a family size of 1 at 3, 000 to a family size of 7 at $8, 700, and the range is in between$ 3, 000 and $8, 700 depend ing upon the number within the family.

As far as economic criteri a is con cerned, of course a lawyer also has to ind icate that on tne face of it there is a reasonable cause of acti on, before proceed ing with the case itself. I don't believe that the re's an y debate as to the importance of legal ai d before the scales of jus tice; al l whether strong or weak or rich or poor ought to have equal oppo rtunity to march shoulder to shoulder up the corridor ofthe court to the cou rtroom to receive fair treatment before the judiciary.

I th ink that pr inc ip le has been to a large measure establi shed by the development of a progressive le gal ai d system in manitoba , still one which can be improved but I th ink one can probably safely say is a legal ai d system in Ma ni toba that possibly is I 'm sure among the top one or two legal ai d systems in Can ada .

Recently the On ta rio committee on legal ai d was in Ma nitoba looking at our system and I cer tainly received the impression from them that they had singled out Ma nitoba , they had not gone to every prov ince but they had singled out Mani toba's system because of the recognition that it had rece ived· The question was raised about Bi ll of Rights for Mani toba and I would like to mention here that the Law Reform Commission was requested to examine the feasibility of a Bi ll of Rights for Mani toba, and this was sometime du ring the spring I believe of last year and I cannot re call the name of the professor that was appo inted to - Ta rnopolsky I believe was the na me, a professor in the Universi ty of Toronto, who apparently is one of the topmost people in the area of constitut ional law, parti cularly deal ing with areas of bills of right.

I believe I have the name correctly--(In terjecti on)--Y es, Ta rnopo lsky. We expect to be receiving his init ial re port any day now. In fact it was expected in April, 1974, so it may be that the Law Reform Commission has even received the report from him at this very date. I have not received it myself but it was expected at the Law Reform Commission in April of 1974. Questions were raised in respect to the Saskatchewan Land Titles office system.

Saskat chewan proceeds un der the Torrens system, guarantee of title system, very similar to the Manitoba system, except that possibly in Saskatchewan the re is one difference and that is the rather extensive use of pa ra-lega l assistance, people who are not lawyers but in certai n areas are providing a legal role and funct ion.

The Manitoba Bar Association is looking at this area to ascertain whether or not there is an involvement here that ought to be considered, but this would be the onl y area of difference between the Saskatchewan an d the Mani toba system insofar as possibly - if it is in fact as was suggested a speedier processing of titles in Saskatchewan than in Manitoba.

The Member for Bir tle-Russell dealt quite extensively with some very important prin ciples and that is the presumption of inn ocence, and I say to the Honourabl e Member for Bi rtle-Russel l that he would find little objection to most of that which he said this afternoon in respect to the very importan ce of the presumption of inn ocence in all matters before the cou rts. There are areas I do think however where that very important pri nciple has to be examined as

3220 May 7, 19 74 SUPPLY -A TTORNEY -G ENERAL (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ... to whether it's feasible in appli cat ion. I would like to mention a few examples. Maybe I could be a littl e personal here, that if the Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Russel l had his cow stolen, for instance, and it was discovered ten miles away from Binscarth in the possession of another farmer with his brand on the cow·, then the courts and the law would place upon that person who had possession of the cow to give some exp lanat ion as to how he came to be in possession of the cow.

There would be an onus which would be cast upon that ind ividual to explain or to give explanation under the Criminal Code prov isions in respect to possession of stolen property. I think probably it's the only way that certain cr imes can be really dealt with if there is some onus cast and some isolated instances such as that on the part of those that - and the except ions are certa inly rare, to expla in, to give some explanati on. For instance, in the charging of a motorist in respect to his not having a driving permit.

Well if the motorist could just sit still, was not requi red to prov ide any information, if the onus was clearly still on the part of the pol ice, then you would have the administrative nightmare of having to search through the Motor Vehicles Branch and the thousands of documents in order to ascertain whether or not that person in fact did have a licence. The possession for instance of alcoholic spirits contrary to the Liquor Control Commission - home-brew - would be an area where an exp lan ation is requi red.

I th ink there are probably - though the except ions ought to be rare, that there are some very practical and real exceptions to the general rule which requi re explanation, which requi re someremoval ofan onus by thevery fact that the accused has been found with certai n goods which appear on the surface to be in criminating to that ind ividual. Even in the example given by the Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Ru ssell: The employee in a hotel conv icted of an offence, the employer hav ing then an onus cas� upon him of his guilt and expectation that he would be requi red to give an explanat ion. Well I th ink Mr.

Chai rman, that when it comes to enforcement of li quor laws, the control of li quor, which is a matter which is of increasing con cern to all Mani tobans, that an employer must be expected to assume a high degree of responsibil ity for the employees that are working withi n his hotel or within his establishment, for their behav iour while in the scope of their employment; and I can see here where the employer ought not to just walk out without any re qu irement on his part to shed an onus if his employee has been found guilty, for instance, of serving a minor or some other in fringement of The Li quor Control Act.

Otherwise, Mr. Chai rman, I'm concerned as to just how workable, just how loose we might, we might cause the workings of The Li quor Control Act and the possibility of us enforcing the provisi ons of that Act if we did not in certain isolated instances reverse that onus.

And I say th i s with great reluctance because the pr inc iple is one that we would want to ensure continuance of and excep ti on should be very rare, and it is for thi s reason that my predecessor would have requested the Law Reform Commission to identify all the examples of reverse onus within our laws and statutes which have bu ilt up over the space of many many years so that we could identify them and certa inly those that have no reasonable practi cal exp lanation for the reverse onus should be thrown out.

And I look forward like the Member for Bi rtle-Russell to obta ining the report of the Law Reform Commission and look forward to his support when it comes to eliminat ing those that have no sense or reason behind them and to uphold the presumption of inn ocence rather than the reverse onus where in fact we can justify that type of move. The members also dealt with the Liquor Control Commission, in respect to contributions that the Liquor Control Commission might make insofar as alcoholi c deterrence programs, Alcoholic Foundati on, programs of that na ture.

The approach of government to date has been that the revenues recei ved from the Liquor Control Commission become part of the Consolidated Revenues of the prov ince and then programs are developed un der the auspi ces and control of the Department of Health and Social Development, which I am confident is the best department to determine what areas there is need for publi c and financ ial support insofar as curbing the effects of alcohol within Ma nitoba.

And thus government and the pub lic as a whole take re sponsibility for making grants of different types to curb that excess; and thus we have the moneys for instance that are spent on detoxification cl inics, a deliberate responsible decision by government exercised through the Department of Health and Social Development. I would th ink that they would be in a better position to make that type of assessment than the Liquor Control Commission would be. But certa inly there is a responsibility on the part of govern ment I th ink to constantly be in creasing the con tribution that it makes towards the curbing of

May 7, 1974 322 1 SUPPLY- ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ... the effects, the anti-social and injurious effects of alcohol. I th ink that possibly all governments regardless of pol itical stripe can be criti cized for having been too cauti ous, too backwa rd in this area and I th ink that the re's a heavy heavy responsibility cast upon government to make an impo rtant contribution in this area.

The Liquor Control Commission over the space of the past year has done a tremendous job in inc reasing the enforcement of those premises which are involved in the sale of alcoholic beverages who breach the provisions of the Liquor Control Act, and I have some figures here which are of inte rest. For instance in 1969-70 the total number of suspensions in Manitoba were only 14, suspension of licenses. In 1972-7 3 the total was 29, and in 1973-74 which ended March 31st, the total nu mber of suspension s in Ma nitoba was 50.

This compares with the On tari o Liquor Licence Boar d which operates in a province with 4, 000 licensed premises com pa red to 600 in Ma nitoba, which last year only issued 21 suspensions, 21 suspensions with seven times the number of licensed premises as in Mani toba and yet Ma nitoba issued more than double the number of suspensions. In British Columbia with twelve hundred and some licensed establishments last year the Province of Bri tish Columbia issued 23 suspensions.

So again Manitoba stands out very well in sofar as its record of not being hesitant or fearful of suspen ding the licenses of those that breach the provisions of the Liquor Control Act, that forget their responsibilities to the Act and to the community at la rge, and when compared with other provinces certa inly Mani toba has been aggressive and properly aggressive in this area. Possibly what I'll do now, Mr. Chairman, is take the opportuni ty to sort through my notes and there may be some other speeches that I can add further to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assini boia. MR. PATRICK: Than k you, Mr.

Cha irman. I do wish to bring a few po ints to the Mi nister's attention at the present ti me and, Mr. Cha irman, the thi ng that concerns me is the operation of the Family Court. It is my information that the docket at the Family Court is loaded with cases pa rticularly unde r T.he Wives and Mai nt enance Act and this is the court that's supposed to deal very swiftly, judi ci ously and quickly and I understand that the present ti me thi s is not the case, that there is a long wai ting list. I would like to ask the Attorney-General how lon g does it take to process a case through the Family Court.

I understand that in many cases one cannot get a relief and there may be problems in a family where the wife may be abused and the re is no way that justi ce can be given in this situation because there is a long wai t ing list. I know that if a person has money they can go to the Mani toba Court of Queen's Bench and you can get your case heard pretty qu ickly without any delay, you can avoi d delays. But the people say that haven't got money, in a very serious situation what do they do?

They have to wait and perhaps the Mi nister can tell us what he's contemplat ing doing as far as the Family Courts is concern ed. ls there an y changes? I th ink that what he must be con cerned about in a situat ion like that that's de:1ling with family courts, par ticular ly with The Wives and Mai nt e nance Act, there must be speedy justi ce and the information I have this is not the case at the present ti me. It appear s to me that the people that have money they can get their cases heard pretty qu ickly before a different court.

So thi s is something that I would like the Mi nister to tell us if he's making any changes or what is he doing reviewing the present operati on. The other po int I'd like to make to the Mi nister at the present ti me, it's deal ing with the Manitoba Liquor Con trol Commission and he's probably quite well aware that I have raised questions to him dur ing this whole session. The po int that I want to raise to him is allow ing bowling prop rietors in Winnipeg to serve beer and wine at bowling alleys.

I know this is a form of recreation, for instance you have this type of facilities now, at golf courses and cu rling clubs which is no different than most bowling alleys where you have leagues and usually your leagues run anywhere -t he hours run an ywhere between say 8:00 and 12:00 o'clock mid night and there is say ten minutes or five minutes time spent as you finish a game and the other league starts to play, there's this ti me span, and I thi nk that the reason - the propri etors aren't inte rested to that extent but I th ink that the people that patr onize these places feel that there should be th is kind of service avai lable to them.

Su rely thi s province, Mr. Chairman, has led Canada in revision of li quor laws an d has a tremendous record. In fact some of the other provinces have studied our system and th is is an area that somehow has been overlooked in thi s province because I understan d thi s is not the case in the other provinces. It is available in your bowling alleys and beer is available I know

3222 May 7, 1974 SUPPLY- ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. PATRICK con t'd) .. . in most places. The information that got to me in the States as well. So all I have to do is only bring thi s to the Mi ni ster's attention that I see there's no other form of recreation that's similar to me as curling or at golf courses and perhap s the Mi nister can give some consideration. I know there was a requ est made and a peti tion presented I be li eve to the former Attorney-General, it was just pri or to the election and I don't know if any action has been taken.

The other po int that I do wish to raise to the Mi nister at the present ti me, Mr. Chairman, and that's to do with location of the government li quor control outlets and really I have no com pla ints with the present chai rman of the Mani toba Liquor Control Board, I believe he's done a good job, but my concern is at least in what's happen ing at the present ti me. I may be completely wrong, somebody has to conv ince me different, but my op inio n is the store opposite the Centen nial Concert complex , that whole area, is the wrong location for a li quor outlet.

I maybe wrong but the information comes to me that park ing faciliti es are non- avai lable and with the kind of further development that will be tak ing place around that complex, aroun d that immediate area, I don't th ink that we need a type of an outlet that will not add anyth ing to that area. I un derstand the store will be redeveloped on Donald and Ness, is thi s not correct, the old place will be rebuilt, the old store on Donald an d Ness, the li quor outlet store ?-- (In terject ion)-- Donald and Ell ice, that's right. I meant Ellice.

And if it is then I see no reason why we need a store in the near future on Main Street. And if there is a need perhaps there could be some delay on that part and see that it's developed properly with the proper kind of development that will take place . I know there'll be a development tak ing place aroun d that complex and maybe one can be developed in a shopp ing centre where there is facilities and could blend into the whole complex. I know that, again I want to po int out to the Attorney-General I don't feel thi s is the right location.

The other po int I would like to make to the Mi nister at the present ti me and perhaps we can learn something, and what we can learn is from the present store that we have on Vimy Road and Portage Avenue. This in itself is probably a good indicat ion to the Mi nister and I'm sure that the Chai rman of the Liquor Control Board would agree that it was a mistake as far as locat ing the store at Vimy Road and Portage Avenue.

Not only that you have traffic jams on Portage Avenue, double park ing, there's quite often damage done to pr ivate property, I understand people will drive on pr ivate lanes and you know the poli ce aren't going to pol ice th e area every day unless there's some supervision of the park ing onthe property immediately . But that doesn't solve the problem because there isn't sufficient park ing area.

I know that what we will do is not only inco nveni ence the customers themselves but having cont inuously to fight, to fight for pa rking spots an d park ing space will normally make nice people not such nice people they will perhaps park in somebody's pri vate lane and so on. So I th ink that when we used to have the little corner li quor outlet store it's not sufficient anymore because the time that the customers come is usually in a busy hour, weekends its tremendously busy and you can't have it somewhere say on Portage Avenue if you haven 't got any sufficient park ing.

My other po int, I know that the store at Ainslie and Portage will be used for spec ialty supplies and I again disagree completely with that. I feel that there is a large area that that store has served, a large area, almost all the way from say close to Polo Park Shopp ing Centre almost up to Sturgeon Creek which is the whole Silver Heights area, west St. James, Birchwood, Woodhaven, which really takes a large part of St. James ar,d that store served all those people .

You've taken away that store and made it into a specialty store so you're left with a self-serve on Vimy Road and Portage Avenue which at the present ti me really is not - the store itself is fine but the park ing faciliti es are inade quate. I'm sure the Mini ster has received complaints or I don't know if he has or not but I certa inly have many times.

In fact I've had calls from neighbours who said would you come out and spend two hours or three hours on Saturday afternoon or Friday, so I know that the people do have problems because some of their fences have been damaged and pr operty damaged and in fact some cars have crossed their lawns. So these th ings happen, and as I say you can't blame the people, the customers completely , too, because they 're looking for park ing space, they can't find any and from nice people sometimes you make them not so nice, because they '11 park, double park in park ing places which they shouldn't.

So I hope that the Mi nister will give this whole thing some consideration an d give it some time because I feel that really when we're plan ning new stores and we're signing long term leases surely you have to look into what park ing

May 7, 1974 322 3 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. PATRICK con t'd) .. . accommodation and what facilities there are for people. This is the reason I feel that I cannot accept - again I may be the only one but I hear that there's been more people, quite a few compla int s to the Environment Committee, City of Winni peg, feel the same way, that it isn't the proper location for the store.

So with these few po ints perhaps I can take another minute and do mention to the Attorney General that I am somewhat concerned with increase in crime in the city and province because I didn't hear when he introduced his estimates but some of the statistics that have been quoted in the papers and some that have been made availabl e to me, I know that the non -capital murders are away up from last year; your indecent assaults are almost doubled; gross in decency is away up in the city as compared to what was last year ; cases of manslaughter is on the increa se; charges under the Narcotics Act is up again so our population certainly has not increased to that extent.

I wonder what the pr oblems are and what kind of rehabilitat ion pro grams we have at the present time to deal with these problems. And certa inly not that we're not arresting these problems but I don't know what kind of results the Attorn ey-Gen eral had and his col league, the Mi nister of Health and Soci al Services when we ta lk about rehabilitation process. I wonder how effective it is . This is an area that surely the Attorney-Gen eral would be pre pared to have a complete look at in th is field.

I know that you've heard from the Chief of Police from the City of Winnipeg and the other police departments that crime is on the increase so perhaps the Mi nister can give us some idea ofwhat's happening with in his departmen t to cope with this problem. What are the results as far as the rehabili ta tion is con cern ed of these people ? So these are the po ints that I wan ted to bring to the Mi nister's attention . I would hope that I'll have some answers from him . MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Chai rman.

I wo uld like to make a few remarks on the Attorney-General's Department. I must say that I'm sorry I wasn't in here for all of his remarks. It just happen ed to be one of these days that I happened to be out when I didn't want to be out. I hope that I'm not caus ing him any extra effort on account of that. I sympathize with him in his department because I believe in th e administration of just ice sometimes you're damned ifyou do an d you're damned ifyou don't and probably it's very difficult.

But I'm one of these persons that believe very strongly in law enforcement and I'm often very disturbed when I hear of peopl e who have committed crimes which really show up as crimes and they're able to be got off on account of some techni cality, very small technicality which really gets them off completely as if they were completely inno cent and we rea lly know they weren't inn ocent. At this ti me I th ink I have to refer to the arti cle that I referred to prev iously where a man got off for driving when his licence was suspended and he got off on the basis that he was driv ing in his sleep.

So I just wonder sometimes just how some of these lawyers can get some of these peopl e off and real ly if it's justice at al l when we get thi s sort of a th ing. I often noti ce that at ti mes the Attorney-Gen eral does make some critici sm of some sentences that are handed out an d I don't blame him a bit.

Because when I hear of people that have committed offences and that they're just allowed to serve them on weekends and that they get time off an d that they can get out to go to all the hockey games and other th ings like this they get out for weekends, I just th ink that it's going too far as far as the treatment of our pri soners are concer ned. I might be somewhat old fashioned in this but I believe frankly than an awful lot of the do-gooders in our society actually don't turn out by being do-gooders at all. I th ink that more or less they downgrade your department and the work that it's doing.

I often wonder about cases that are up before judges and the decisions are delayed for the period that they are, and I often wonder if when sentences are delayed like they are in many cases and there is remanding of cases and appeals and all the rest of it, I often th ink that just ice delayed is justice denied. They keep talk ing about it and remanding it and hop ing that some way or another the pub lic will forget or they can sweep it under the carpet and I real l y don't like th is very well at all.

I rea lize that probably I'm not expressing the views of many on my side or maybe many on your side but this is the way I feel and I really feel that I'm expressing the views of the average layman on the street when he sees some of the things that's going onan d some of the programs we have. I'm not agai nst when people are in prison where they're tra ined or put on work programs but when they're treated as good as they are in pri son otherwise I don't see any real reason, you know - there's an in crease in cr ime and it's rea lly no wonder because actua lly outside of

3224 May 7, 1974 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) ... the disgrace of going to prison I think probably it's something that any of us could set up with and maybe wouldn't be any harder to set up with than some of our own ordinary day's work if it wasn't for the disgrace of it. A MEMBER: Especially in here. A five-month sentence every year. MR. HENDERSON: I want to compliment the Minister in the way the county courts have been doing their job. I think this has been a real good thing in the rural areas in particular.

I only think now that in the days of inflation when money seems to have such little value that possibly where we used to have to .. . now it's $500.00 and under, that possibly we should raise this figure because I can see $500. 00 isn't very much these days. They used to do the cases $500. 00 and lower for $3. 00 and I think possibly if they'd do cases from$ 500. 00 to $1, 000. 00 for just a somewhat larger figure, maybe$ 5. 00, that maybe this would really be a good thing.

Because you can't turn accounts over to a collecting agency that won't take ten percent and I needn't tell any of you that if you've got an account of around $ 500. 00 it's ha rdly worthwhile going to a lawyer because he's going to charge you so much and you aren't sure even if you're going to collect it, and outside of a lawyer doing it as a percentage basis I think probably that he's going to charge you a lot more and he's not going to guarantee any results either. So I'd like to see the county courts up that figure from - possibly up to $1, 000. 00 anyway, I think it would be very good.

I also want to compliment him on speeding up things in the Land Titles Office in our area but I do want to criticize him for taking so long to do it. You know it's funny but I suppose possibly anybody would be the same but they have to wait until they're pressured and pressured before they do anything. And this isn't right.

Because when you get several transactions going through a Land Titles Office and they're coming in from lawyers in the rural areas, from the surrounding areas, and supposing they 're $50, 000 accounts or sales and they're delayed in a Land Titles office for a period of a month - and I'm sure that many in my area were de layed for that length of time - and we have this going on and he's only handling 20 in a month, or 20 are being delayed in a month, let's put it this way, and you calculate the interest on this you'll find that this is costing the people an awful lot of money who are doing business.

And this shouldn't be so. This has finally got corrected but !hope if this happens in any other constituency that the Attorney-Gene ral moves an awful lot quicker to correct it because the way he acted last time it seems to me he just waited until he was pressured and pressured until he could make the change and I don't feel this was right. It can be said that while these here accounts were being processed that anyway the money wasn't sitting idle that maybe the interest was in a trust account which was going to legal aid.

I was one of these people that voted in favour of interest earned on trust accounts going into legal aid and I done it conscientiously, but I often wonder since if I really done the right thing. Possibly think now that I should have voted or been more behind the idea that money that's going through legal offices being put in trust accounts where the interest was due to whoever the money was due. This is the way that it should have been handled.

I know that there's a small amount of money that lawyers have to have in trust accounts when it's less than a month and possibly in the way that they 're han dling accounts that there's some there, but I feel that there's an excessive amount going into legal aid and I feel that it's just not all too good.

I feel that legal aid - and I have here this printed book of yours and the fees are legal aid people can charge, $25. 00 an hour for preparation, $250. 00 for a day in court, they can go up north and they get paid for each day and then they may get remanded when they 're up there - I really feel some day I'd like to research some of those cases that were carried on in the north and see what they're costing or even some other cases because I feel that legal aid is becoming a very giant monster and I think it's going to become worse.

I see in the estimates tha t even the government itself is putting another $ 727, 000 into it and I know the Minister will get up and say how good legal aid is and how the people should be entitled to justice and all this but, you know, it's not all just that way, and I see you creating a giant monster there. !--(Interjection) --Y es, I really think so. I think really that when it comes down to it I think that lawyers should be taking a very sincere look at themselves. They're charging very large fees in many cases and they're driving people to legal aid.

I would say that if the legal profession is con cerned about retarding the growth of legal aid that they should do a little bit more themselves to see that some cases are handled differently or at a discount in prices or something because I feel that the legal profession - and I have here the salaries of the different professions and I

May 7, 1974 3225 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) .. . know that the lawyers aren't suffering. So I feel that the legal people should be taking a strong look at themselves because I've talked to many of the rural people and there's nobody feels sorry for the lawyers or seems to think that they're underpaid. However, at least the lawyers when they do their own work they do take the chance on collecting their accounts which they don't have to under the legal aid system, it's all set up for them.

So I feel that unless they watch themselves that we're going to have a terrific growth in legal aid, and I'm not saying this is the thing that in my opinion that should be growing like it is. I think that the Law Society has a real responsibility here and a public relations job to do and I really think that they should do it. Outside of that I have no further remarks except for probably when we're going through the accounts. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORT HY : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd just like to underline if I may the points that were made by the la st member contributing and the Member from Assiniboia where they brought attenti)n once again to the concern that's being expressed about the incidence of crime in the province and the difficulty in many cases for members of this House to make some assessment as to exactly what is the state of affairs. This was brought to the Minister's attention this afternoon and I don•t think he commented on it in his response, ye tit is a problem of increasing concern to larger numbers of people.

I'm not sure whether the concern is partially a response to what they read elsewhere but what ever the cause may be, and I think there is some legitimate causes, the frequency and incidence of crime both inside the city and out is one which has a rightful place of worry in the minds of many people and that could better be eased if we had some decent reporting system.

I would hope that the Minister might consider adopting the practice that other Attorney- Generals are now beginning to adop t in their provinces where they attend at least once a year to give a re port to the Legislature upon if you like the state of disarray or the state of crime and the problems associated with it and particularly begin enactin g the kind of law enforcement measures that would be designed to anticipate and prevent the growth of particularly the kind of social crimes that we •re reaching now.

I think that this particular issue is one that I certainly would like to hear the Minister comment upon , because I think he should have noted by now that several members on this side of the House are concerned about it. That is not however the major reason why I rose to my feet, Mr. Chairman.

It•s simply again to raise with the Minister two questions really on the other side of the fence of his obligations, and I can see the difficulty that the Attorney- General has because on one hand he •s expected to be the provincial law enforcer, the man who makes sure the administration of justice is done by the scales of blind justice in a hard but fair manner; on the other hand he has in some cases a far more difficult and perhaps even difficult role and that is the protector of civil liberties and civil rights in this province.

And it is that area which is certainly ca using me increasing concern, particularly because of the activities of this government over the past year, in two specific areas where they have been charged with responsibiliti es.

The first one of course is in the activity of the Human Rights Commission which was heralded when it was established as being a demonstration of this government's response and sensitivity to the issue of human rights and to demonstrate its concern, that those who find themselves being victimized by discrimination of various kinds would have an opportunity to take their case, and gain a hearing and get some redress.

And yet it became fairly obvious over discussions of last year that the Human Rights Commission was not working in that re spect, that it was not living up to the expecta tions that had been presented to this House and passed debate, and in fact was in many corners being considered more as a cover-up than as an enlightener for the issue of human rights.

This is particularly I think because of the organizational or legislative nature of the Human Rights Commission, and I would suggest that the Minister in considering the amendments that he says he plans to bring down on the Human Rights Commission, should pay some real attention to setting up the Human Rights Commission as an independent commission that reports to the Legislature as opposed to a commission that reports to the government.

Be cause I think it is becoming a fairly common place fact of life that in many cases the transgressors of human rights are oftentimes govern ment themselves and it is unlikely that the Human Rights Commission that gains its sustenance and support and its access to the Execut ive Branch of government or to the Cabinet of govern ment is not as likely to pursue with all vigor necessary in the human rights field when in fact

3226 May 7, 1974 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENE RAL (MR. AXWO RTHY cont •d). . . it may be having to pursue the people who are its sponsors and its overseers. So I think that if we are, as I think everyone in this House is legitimately concerned to insure that there is a commission in the province that will undertake the-proper representation of human rights' problems then it is essential that that commission have a much more inde pendent position than it has now.

And I believe, and I'm simply asking the Minister in this case that this was the basic import of an internal task force that was conducted for the Attorney General's Department about a year ago or sometime within the last year, a report which I don•t think ever saw the light of day, and it would be interesting if the Minister could comment upon what that report that was done internally in his department or internally within the government had to say. I believe it might have been a report that was conducted by people who were brought from the outside and I gather his predecessor in office did not act upon it.

But in any event, I gather that that might have been some of the recommendations that came out of it. So in fact those are the recommendations of a government-sponso red task force or study group that in fact the Human Rights Commission be set up as independent, I would think it would seem a logical step for us to take. That leads me to the other question which again the Minister may not be responsible for personally but certainly this government is and it goes back to the actions of his predecessor, and that is on the whole question of censorship in the province.

I think there is nothing more dangerous than the irrational use of government power to begin to suppress ideas or opinions or any other kind of free expression, of whether it's an artistic matter or a political matter. I think the action of this government last June just prior to the election day in taking action against one of the films being distributed in the City of Winnipeg caused a great deal of con cern amongst those who were concerned about civil liberties because it had no rhyme or reason to it.

It was not part of any announced set of policy guidelines that the government had established; it was not part of any policy description that anyone had seen; it was sort of a shot out of the blue, repeated once and we don•t know when it's going to happen again, Is it to be simply upon the whim or caprice of the Attorney-Gen eral when this kind of suppression occurs, or is it to be based upon a more clearly articulated set of guidelines so that those who are in the business or in the field of providing for the distribution of a variety of forms of materials or films or art objects or whatever it may be, will at least be able to have some sense of surety, some sense of confidence about what the limits at least that this government is prepared to work within as opposed to working on sheer caprice or whim or whatever personal idiosyncrasy may have prompted that kind of action, Because.! think it is in that very delicate nature ofhaving some sense of surety and confidence as to what the guidelines are that this very delicate problem of censorship must be exercised, It cannot be exercised in the way it has been up to now, or at least by that one example demonstrated where it was that kind of you knock on the door at night kind of action.

I realize that part of the problem is by the nature of the establishment of the censorship rules that once it was taken out of the purview of providing for an original screening of films and other objects and simply gone to a classification board, an uncertainty was created . I think that uncertainty is a dangerous one.

It would be very useful I suppose - the Minister could certainly refer the matter to the Law Reform Comm-ission, he refers a lot of things to the Law Reform Commission, I suppose one more thing wouldn•t hurt- if they could begin to do a fairly sensible and proper position upon the approach that should be utilized by this government in its approach to censorship in the province, in the field of film, but certainly also applies in the field of literature and other areas.

Because as it now stands that one act, that act of caprice last June I believe has provided a high degree of turbulence in understanding or knowing or sensing as to what is considered to be within the allowable rights. That would be I think an important sort of matter that I would like to raise with the Minister .

If he is prepared to comment at this point, that •s fine, but simply take it under advisement for I believe that that action of the government last spring was a troublesome one, has caused a great deal of, certainly I think of soul-searching on the part of many people in the community about what really is the position of this government, and I think it is a requirement that they begin to clarify their stand in relation to the problem of censorship and what is the guidelines at least that they are prepared to work within so that those in the private world who must in many cases judge their actions by some sense of the standards that are being set will have a notion of what those standards are.

May 7, 1974 322 7 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENE RAL (M R. AXWO RTHY cont•

d) I would hope that the Minister would take these comments with some seriousness because I think I am expressing not simply a personal point of view, the point of view by many of those who . . . for example, groups like the Manitoba civil liberties group and so on, who at that time expressed great dismay at the action and I think would consider some expression of government position in this to be a worthwhile one so that we would know where we stand. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. . . MR. GREEN: I just wanted to ask the honourable member a question. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable House Leader has a question? MR. GREEN: I •m not sure that I understand the honour able member. The only censor ship that exists of films in the Province of Manitoba now as I understand it is vis-a-vis the Cri minal Code of Canada, and as to whether or not a prosecution is commenced it rests with the Attorney-Gen eral. Is he suggesting that there should be a provincial censorship in addition to that, such as there was prior to us eliminating the censorship laws? Is that the position of the Manitoba Civil Liberties Association?

I•m trying to understand because I believe we have a problem, but I understood the honourable member to indicate it should go to the Law Reform Commission to define censorship laws and I wonder if that•s what he really means. MR . AXWO RTHY: Mr. Chairman, I would an swer the Minister in this respect, that under the present laws of censorship as they are ena cted in the Criminal Code--(Inte rjection)- That•s right, that•s all we have--the onus or the discretion on how they are exercised rests with the Attorney-General.

When those changes were made one assumed that the area of activity or opportunity sort of would be defined in some way. The act of the Attorney-General or the Attorney-General's predecessor, or the Attorney-General 's Department last spring all of a sudden sort of set a certain precedent, established a certain standard if you like as to when--(Interjection)--Well, but one case is very important because , if I have read the law correctly on censorship, most major cases are established on the basis of one case around which standards and measurements are determined.

I think that case in many cases has established if nothing else a high degree of uncertainty in the minds of exhibitors, for example, and they would like that clarified. And I'm simply suggesting that thaL would be--(Interjection) --No, I•m simply suggesting, I•m not saying that we need a new censor board at all in Manitoba, but I am suggesting that it would be of extreme value if the government would make its position clear as to what does it determine to be within the area of censorship.

What sort of stand ard is it prepared to accept so that.there is some degree of surety or some degree of confidence that the people, exhibitors, are working within the ambit of law. Because what happens is this.

Again whatever examination I•ve been able to make of the workings of censor ship law it works thts way, that once you have been stung the human nature takes over and the proclivity of people who are responsible as exhibitors or distributors is to be even more shy than perhaps they should be, that once that initial sort of action has been taken they may them selves begin to greatly narrow the area of things they are prepared to show or exhibit far more so than perhaps even the government would like because they're afraid now, you know going in to these kinds of cases are expensive.

No one particularly likes the embarrassment of it in some cases. So I •m simply suggesting that that situation should be clarified. Perhaps some set of stand ard of what is to be expected, not to be expe cted, should be enunciated so that we wouldn't by the process of self-selection or self-censorship so begin to narrow or limit the range, that we would reduce it down to what is simply kind of acceptable only to the Mrs. Grundy•s sort of who live in the world. Because I think that would be a terrible mistake.

There has been no statement made by the Minister or anybody in the government subsequent to their court activity and I think that such a clarification would be of great value. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR . ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I recogniz e the Honourable Minister was ready to respond but perhaps I could just add in a few words somewhat more material to which he can then respond to, some that ind eed will be related to what has just been said.

Let me at the outset say that I really don•t have any particular bone to pick with the Attorney-General•s Department, it •s a department that we recognize as being one that offers the people of Manitoba a degree of stability in terms of how they approach the law and how the law reacts on them if they are in the wrong, and we look in thts day and age to the agenc ies to hand le it in all possible ways where the full human condition is considered. And I think that we can say that

322 8 Ma y 7, 1974 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENE RAL (MR. ENNS cont•d) .•. that is the case in the application of most laws in the Province of Ma nitob a. It's in this very context, Mr.

Chairman, that I raise a quest ion not tota lly dissimilar from the ones rai sed by the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge who just spoke, where I think the actions of the dep artment under the Attorney-Gene ral become important, become import ant in the way of continu ing or establishing clearly the kind of leadership guidelines tha t we as the pub lic demand of the Attorney-Gener al, and to know at all times, you know, the position of the Attorney-General •s office on certain matters. And there has been, Mr.

Chairman, in my judgment in the pa st several inst ances where we ha ve been somewhat confused as to when the Attorney-General has seen fit to lean on the administration to do cert ain things ; and on the other ha nd when he has seen fit to lean on the administration to bri.ng about an expression of poli cy .

Now whether that •s personal policy or policy of himself as a Cabinet Minister of th is government or what, but there is a difficu lty sometimes, Sir, to find out, when one approaches the Attorney- Gener al's office, when he believes a matter is a subject matter of pol icy and when it is subject matter du ly in the ha nds of his administr at ive officers . I refer to two particu lar inst ances, Mr . Chairman .

For inst ance in the selective prohibition th at we ha ve with respect to the sale of wines in the North country, when without arguing the ca se at all, its merits, its hoped for effects, its causes or effects, but simply for me and for other Mani tobans to underst and, was this a policy decision on the pa rt of the Manitob a Government, or is th ts an administra t ion decision, administra tive decision made by the Li quor Contro l Commission, which is under his jur is diction?

I believe there was some mention made about a, you know, study be ing undert aken in this area, dealing with the sale of cert ain spirits in the North. My question would be: who author ized th at study? Again the quest ion of, did it emana te from the po licy table of the Cabinet room, the policy desk of the Mi ni ster, Mi nister of the Crown or was this an intern al administr ative dec ision made and supported by the Mi nister on the basis that he is prepa red to accept an exper iment in this way and then at some subsequent date made recom mendations to us?

In th at event, I would like to know when that study is going to be completed, or wi ll it cont inue for how long? Wi ll the results of that study be tabled in th is House? Or, Mr . Chairman, indeed, if as a result of last night •s budget has the whole study been made meaning less because of the fact th at there is getting to be very very litt le chea p liquor around of any description? Mr . Chairman, I raise th at question in the context of th is other matter that I rai se, and that•s not too far distant from the matter that was raised by the Member forFort Rouge.

Also during this last year there was a situation in the film industry where a pa rticu lar film was brought into thts community and whose fitness was chal lenged and was ta ken to court for the possibility of its being ch arged under the Criminal Act of Canada for being obscene . I be lieve some liberal-minded judge of the day decided it was not, and pa ssed it ; then the action, however, taken by the Attorney-G eneral is one again th at I'm trying to understand.

He on this occa sion felt that his administr ative arm of the Dep artment of Justice, the Depa rtment th at he controls, was not do ing things to his personal liking, and I don•t know whether it was not to his personal liking or not carrying out the pol icy of th at administr at ion th at the Minister is part of. So I cite, Mr .

Chairman, just these two instances where, on the one hand, what would appe ar to me to be a fairly, you know, major po licy dec ision, a decision to impose a limited form of proh ibition on certain segments of our society, tha t th at kind of a decision in the Mi ni ster's depa .rtment can be suggested . to ha ve been made at the admini strative level, and then on the other ha nd, the quest ion of whether a film is obscene or not, and it ha ving gone through the due process of law and ha ving been prosecuted and ha ving been judged upon, you know, certainl y all the administrat ive arms of the Min ister •s staff working to the ir full authority in response to their duties and respons ibil ities, but then the Mi n ister not being able to accept the result, and the Mi nister - not_somebody else, but the Min ister - seemingly initiates

an act ion th at would at least leave the impression th at he would somehow want to reverse the act ion ta ken by the due process of law. Now th at leaves the question: Is the Mini ster - and th at I th ink is

part ly the question th at was being asked by the Member for Fort Rouge - you know, is the Mi ni ster, the Attorney General of th is government, not prepared to accept the position th at they essent ially put themselves into when they abolished the Ma ni toba Censor Board and essentia lly said tha t

Ma y 7, 1974 3229 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENER AL (MR. ENNS cont •d) •.. henc eforth thin gs will be de clared fit or un fit if successful prosecution be brought under the Ca nada Criminal Code? I believe that •s - and I think the Honourable House Lea der just stood up and through his question in g underli ned the fact that th at is precisely the situa tio n that we now are at, and I hear nobody suggestin g that we should change it . Except that the Mi nister 's actio ns in this parti cular in stance would seem to in di cate to me that he was not quite prepared to accept that. Now I don•t know, Mr .

Chairman , as to when the Mi nister therefore pursues a course withi n his depart ment on a matter of it being poli cy, or when he allows that course to be pursued by his administrative officers, and is quite happy and quite prepa red to allow the administrative officers to accept the responsibility for certain actio n. Mr. Chairman , I •m not prepared to make any un due charges here but the impli cation s are very clear.

In the case of the selective prohibitio n that has been un dert aken un der his jurisdiction - and I do n•t even know whether it's un der his jurisdiction; under the jurisdiction of the Man itoba Liquor Con trol Bo ard perh aps more properly put - is it, Mr. Chairman, that he is awaitin g for the kind of publi c reaction that will ta ke place.

You know, if it's good, then in deed it will become poli cy and he will be quite happy to stand up and accept the credits for it, but on the other han d if it isn•t good and if it isn• t acce pted, and if it •s bad and if it can be shown that it is questio nable, highly questio nable prac ti ce, does the Mi nister then in te n d to shield behin d the administrative officers un der his jurisdi ctio n and push them forward for the responsibility for taki n g an action - essenti ally a policy action I would surmise, Mr .

Chairman - which is not to the likin g of the majority of the people of Ma nitoba , and therefore then he can poi n t the finger to ill -advised experiments carried out by lesser officers in his administration s, or members of the Liquor Control Boa rd who oper ate at some arm•s length from him? Mr.

Chairman , I raise these two pa rti cular poi nts because I suggest that while my criti cisms of the Attor ney-Ge neral are minimal, there are in several in stances - I• ve named these two in stan ces - a difficulty, I find some difficulty in clearly interpretin g policy when it eman ates from the Attor ney-Ge neral's Depa rtment as compared to administra tive action s. Now, Mr. Ch airman, let me not sit down and not retur n to one of my other favourite concern s, with som e alarm, Mr.

Spea ker, because I do suspect that the Ho nour able Mi nister has compassion in this field an d is not prep ared to accept the positio n ta ken by his prede cessor, even though the figures would in di cate that perh aps he has. And I• m referri n g to the just about the doublin g of the figures of cattle bein g rustled in this last year. You reca ll, of course, th at his predecessor, Mr. Chairman, suggested to this House that, well, perh aps the first deer should be on the house and that we shouldn't crack down too hard on the cattle rustlers the first time arou nd.

And even though the figures in dica te that the in cidence of rustli n g has doubled this pa st year, I would like the Min ister to personally assure me th at he doesn •t believe that it 's fair to the farmers, the ra nchers of this provi nce , who are facing signific an t difficulties as it is ; th at he won•t add to their problems by suggestin g to the other 990, 000 Man itob ans, "That •s all right, boys. You can get th at first deer in the free zer on the house, courtesy the Man it oba farmers. We won't prosecute you too hard as long as it's on ly the first one. " Now, Mr.

Chairman, I.don•t wa nt to belittle the problem be cause if is, if anythin g, a growing problem and a problem that•s going to stay with us parti cula rly as the pri ce of food - and beef is an essentia l part of that food elemen t tha t we require - stays where it is, and pa rti cula rly when it still seems to be so difficuh to successfully pursue the wrongdoers to convi ct to the final en d result. The figures show an un healthy in crease in this regard.

I must compliment the Attor ney- Ge neral's staff for ha vin g used whatever in flue nce they ha ve used, and I believe it' s considerable, with the RCMP in havin g helped to organi ze lo cal groups in better surveilli ng the cattle coun tries this past su mmer. I would hope that that same kin d of effort would contin ue in this coming year.

I can assure the Honour able Mi nister that that has had a considerable, you know, he lpful result in most area s, and I speak parti cu larly of the In terl ake which I am familia r of, an d we would certai nly wan t to entertain any fresh idea s or new idea s tha t the Mi nister may ha ve, or some of the staff may ha ve, with respe ct to how we can improve on this service. We do not, we do not suggest, as I think I may ha ve to vote agai nst the resolution th at will come forward sooner or la ter in this session

3230 May 7, 1974 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENE RAL (M R. ENNS cont •d) ... about the possibility of arming the vigilante committees this coming summer; .wouldn't like to see it come to that extent, but Mr. Ministe r I want to tell the Minister Mr.

Chairman, through you, that the continued co-operation between all law enforcement officers, indeed in fact the widening of the ci rcle of othe r responsible people - I• m thinking particula rly of other people already connected with government, whether they be through the agricultu ral offices or through the offices of his colleague the Ministe r of Mines and Natur al Resources, that every effort should be made to make as strong a net as possible in te rms of communications, identif ications and so forth, in the hope of keeping the incidence of cattle rustling to a minimum. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN : The Honourab le the Attorney-Gene ral . MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, possibly I would just have two minutes which I could deal with the question of the Last Tango. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge and the Member for La keside raised the question of whether or not the re was a policy direction in regard to matters pertaining to charges brought under the Criminal Code in respect to films seized in theatres and their proprietor s charged under the provision s of the Code.

I would like to just indicate to honour able members that insofar as the particular film which members have in mind, that it was nd a decision that was ar rived at, as suggested by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, to proceed with an appeal absent and foreign to the decisions of the administrative arm of the Depart ment of the Atto rney -Gene ral; that in fact that decision to appeal the finding in the Provincial Court on to the Court of Appeal, was made as the result of recommendations by the legal officers wi thin the Dep artment of the Atto rney- General.

The recommendation was that there - and I concurred wholehea rtedly in it and assume full responsibility for it - that the present provisions of the law pertaining to obscenity vis- a -vis our Criminal Code is hazy and blurred an d though one may have their own personal views in respect to censorship, we do have to live within the provisions of the existing Criminal Code, and I say to the Member for Fort Rouge that if there is need for legislative change, and I feel that the re is; there is need for clarity and precision, more precision insofar as to what is obscenity within the meaning of the Code - than that decision, those legislative changes have to be made by his colleagues at the federal level of government, because it is from the Criminal Code and only from the Criminal Code which the Dep artment of the Atto rney-General is ent rusted with the responsi bility of enforcing, that the decisions really must be made in respect to obscenity in the Province of Manitoba whether a certain matter is or is not • And I say to honour able members that the decision in the Court of Appeal and the lengthy decision of the majority of the court - and by the way, the c ourt split th ree-two, which in itself indicated quite an unce rtainty as to exactly what is obscenity and what is not obscenity under the provisions of the Criminal Code - was a major contribution to the understanding of the Depa rtment insofar as its relationship to future case files brought in this regard in the future.

MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, if I may. I wonder ifi may have the indulgen ce, Sir, of yourself and members of the Committee at this par ticular sta ge. My colleague, the Atto rney-General will tomorrow be going down to Minneapolis to meet Her Royal Highness Princess Margaret and the Earl of Sn owdon.

I• m wondering whether or not, in order that my honour able friend may have an oppo rtunity of using up his 20 minutes or so, whether or not he could have the indulgence of the Committee to allow him to reply to a fow of the questions that have been raised this evening in order to accommodate him going down to Minneapolis. I understand that my collea gue the Atto rney-General will not be available tomorrow or possibly on Thursday due to these matters of state, and I• m--(Inte rjection)--Y es, let •s all go, but we can •t.

So I• m just asking whether or not there would be an inclination of the members of the Committee to allow the Atto rney-General to answer a number of these quest ions even thou g h it •s going beyond the hour of 9:00 o• clock. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENSON : I think , Mr. Chairman, we could have reached a decision much ear lie r than this if the Minister had not elaborated at such great length . We •re q uite prepared to conside r Estimates the remainde r of the evening.

In fact, I think it would be preferable to do that and there are a number of members on this side of the House who would like to contr ibute as well , on the understanding that when tomorrow night ar rives that we will proceed to the order of Private .Members • business that normally would have taken place today . In

May 7, 1974 3231 SUPP LY - ATTORNEY - GEN ERAL (MR. JORGENSON cont•d) .•. other words, we would go into Pr ivate an d Publi c Bi lls as the first order of business tomorrow ni ght , or tomorrow afte rnoon , and if that--(In te rject ion)- no , on Wednesday. If that is sat isfactor y , we •re prepar ed to conclude the remainde r of the sitt ing on the est imates of the Depar tment of the Atto rney-Gene ral, or whatever. • • MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Mi ni ster of Labou r. MR . PAU LLEY : Mr .

Cha irman , do I understand my honourable friend to ind icate that tomorrow aftern oon, because we are not meeting tomorrow even ing because it is Wednesday , that the suggestion of my honourable friend , the Member for Morris would be that they prepare to go on unt il just pri or to before the hour of 10 when we must call the Speaker in to adjourn the House , but tomorrow that there will be an advanc ing of pri vate resolut ions from 4:30 to 3:30 or thereabouts. Is that .•• MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR .

JORGENSON: My suggestion is that at 4:30 instead of going into the first order of business being the cons iderat ion of Orders for Return , debatable Orders for Return , the second order of business was resolutions. My suggestion is that the first order of business tomorrow might be pr ivate and public bills rathe r than debate on adjourned Orders for Return. MR. PAU LLEY: I th ink , Mr. Cha irman , that that is acceptable as far as we are con cerned provid ing we have unanimi ty of an agreement insofar as toni ght is concern ed .

The Honourable Member for Morris has spoken on behalf of the Official Oppos ition , I wonder what is the inclinat ion of the members of the Liberal Par ty . If we have concurr ence then I think that the suggestion of the Honourable Member for Morris is qu ite acceptable. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Par ty. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speak er, we , with some reluctance concur with the Honou rable Mi ni ster of Labour, and ou r reluctance , just so that the record is clea r, is that once aga in we have had to , in a sp irit of willingness, accommodate the government , had to abandon pri vate members• hour, one of the hours of the session aga in be ing lost , and inasmuch as all members appear will ing to do th is we will not withhold the ti me to the House , but we do express the regret and hope that we won•t have too much of th is inasmuch as the re is still a fair amount of pri vate members• business to conclude before we adjourn. MR.

PAU LLEY: May I suggest to my honour able friend it's not really an accommodation to the government. We•r e try ing to accommodate the House and also to allow my colleague full freedom to greet Her Royal Highness on behalf of all of the people of Mani toba . I under stand , Mr. Chairman, that we have an agreement and suggest you retain you r posit ion as Cha irman, at th is

part icular ti me. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed that the committee proceed with consideration of the Est imates of the Attorney-Gene ral's De partment? (Agreed) The Honourable the Attorney General has 27 minutes remaining. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry , on a poi nt of order? MR. L. R. (BUD)SHERMAN (Fort Ga rry): May I just have the indulgence of the House to ask a question pertain ing to what has just been decided . What est imates , what department does the Mi ni ster of Labour or the House Leader propose to bring before committee tomorrow afte rnoon? That will be Educat ion?

But we will then go back to the Attorney-G ene ral 's Est imates when he retu rns from Mi nn eapol is? Is that correct? MR. PAU LLEY : Yes. I believe Mr. Cha irman, that would be the idea , that the Depa rtment of Educat ion and the Mi ni ster tomorrow will be discussing the est imates of that department and then after that is conclud ed , or if by agreement pri or to the conclusion of the est imates of educat ion, we revert back to the Atto rney-Gene ral's Dep artment .

3232 SUPPLY - AT TORNEY-G ENERA L MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable the Attorney-General. May 7, 1974 MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, in addition questions raised in re spect to the decis ions in re spect to the sale of fortified cheap wines in Northern Manitoba. This was an administra tive decision by the commission, it was not a policy dec ision by government, but I would say to honourable members it may very well be that there will be very clear and positive results from this test project which was undertaken by the Liquor Control Commission to ascertain whether or not the levels of detoxification would be re duced in communities in which there was removal of the sale of these

part icular wines. The comments by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia were I think of ... MR . CHAIRMAN : Order please. The Honourable the Attorney -General. MR. PAWLEY: ... were of considerable interest to all members of the House in res pect to the very extreme importance of all matters pertaining to the family and juvenile courts in Manitoba. Ce rtainly for a long period of time this court has been the one which has recei ved least attention.

It has been the court which often has lacked the support staff and the fac ilities and the judges in order to carry out the very important function that is required of that court. And certainly the honourable member from As siniboia is corr ect in suggesting that there has in fact been at times in the past instances where the service in that court could have been improved.

Ce rtainly I say to honourable members that the location of the Family Co urt being as it is located in Tuxedo is not the most convenient court insofar as those that are seeking the services of that court, and often they are impoverished wives and mothers that are seeking custody or support from deserti ng husbands and others. Well a number of steps have been undertaken in order to attempt to improve the service in this court. Just re cently there was the full-time appointment of Judge Harris which is an addit ional appointment of a judge to the Family Court.

Judge Harris performed the role of a part- time family court judge for a considerable period of time and his performance was of such a natur e that I am confident that he will contr ibute in a major way to the effective operations of the Family Court.

Sec ondly, there is a need I think to attempt, particularly in the areas re moved from the Tuxedo area, another facil ity, another building in which Family Co urt hearings can take place and the supervisor of Court Services is in the process now - and I'm not sur e whether he has completed the re ntal of a hall in order that Family Court matters can be heard, somewhere in the vicinity of the North Winnipeg-Kildonan area.

So that wives and mothers will not have to go through that lengthy tortuous process of transferring from one bus to another and then a lengthy walk in order to get to the prese nt Family Co urt fac ilities. I hope that we'll be in a position to report in respe ct to that particular move shortly and I would trust that we'll be able to make moves insofar as the fac ilities themselves are concerned, because they are not the most con veniently located fac ilities.

We're also appointing a Family Co urt Judge who will deal in the cir cuits in and about the Ci ty of Winnipeg ; who will relieve the load from those provinc ial judges that are engaged in the cr iminal parts in resp ect to the provid ing of Family Co urt services both in the central and in the eastern judicial districts. There will be the appointment of a full-time Family Court Judge who will be involved only in the hearing of family and juvenile court matters within that area, so there ought to be an improvement insofar as services in that respect are concerned.

Insofar as the time that is spent, it varies from case to case, lawyer to lawyer and often judge to judge, depending upon the matters which are brought bef or_e the court, the chances for reconcil iation, and sometimes certainly these cases can drag a lengthy period of time, some times for reasons unrelated to the actual fac ilities or the backlog of cases, but because of the very efforts that are often attempted during the Family Court hearing itself to bring about a reconcil iation of the parties to the dispute. We are as well, Mr.

Chairman, looking at the long term and we have through the Manitoba Law Reform Commission entered into corresp ondence with the federal level of government, the Honourable Mr. Lang, the Minister of Justice, to ascertain whether or not the Federal Government would be interested in a pilot project in Manitoba related to court fa cilities in a particular part geographically in Manitoba, a Family Court which would handle all matters re lated to Family Co urt matters.

Because one of the difficulties under the prese nt structure of Family Court is that we have the custody and maintenance matters in one court, guardianship matters in another court, divorce matters elsewhere, divis ion of property elsewhere and some times you will find three different courts which are involved in the handling of matters pertaining

May 7, 1974 32 33 SUPPLY - AT TORNEY-GENERA L (MR. PA WLEY cont'd) ..... to a Family Co urt case. Often you find that the Co urt of Queen's Bench is dealing with a matter that could be handled in the Family Court for instance. The idea behind the proposals that have been made to the federal level of government is that there be a unified Family Court pilot project in Manitoba and the federal level of govern ment has re cently indicated support in principle to such a concept being developed in Manitoba.

Now the practical detail arra ngements have to be sorted out between the two levels of govern ment, but I'm hopeful that within the space of the next few months we'll be in a position to announce in a major way this particular thrust in an examination of a unified Family Co urt sys tem to ascertain whether or not we can obtain better service for our fa milies or wives or chil dren that are involved in the Family Co urt from a unified system rather than the pres ent frag mented system.

The Province of British Co lumbia has always procee ded in this direction with a pilot project in June of this year slated for commencement in British Columbia, and the Law Reform Commission re ports from different parts of Canada are all indicating a need for a re examination as to the pres ent Family Court system across the country. The Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver had mentioned earlier and I had neglected to mention in my earlier remarks about supplementary police forces in partic ular re lating to northern communities.

And there is pres ently discussions between the federal and provincial levels of government to ascertain whether we can proceed with a program which is called the 3B Program by which we can brin g more native people into polic ing in northern communities, not only on the Res erves but in the re mote communities and other non-treaty communities sur rounding the Re serves.

The Federal Government has expr essed inter est, as has the Provincial Government, in this field and there is pres ently discussions under way to ascertain whether or not we can brin g to the northern communities supplementary staff attached to the RCM P to provide native input to the native and remote co mmunities in Northern Manit oba.

I wish we had the time to discuss justice in Northern Manitoba because one of the impres sions that I've had durin g the short period of time that I have been .Attorney-General is that we have much need for re form and change in Northern Manitoba insofar as the administration of justice in northern communities.

If I could just mention a not so humorous but rather sad incident, that apparently there is a small community in Nort hern Manitoba where when the court circuit sits there the proc eedings take place on a card table with three legs and the Cro wn Prosec utor, the Defence Attorney, the RCM P and the Judge take turns as to which of the four is going to end up with the corner of the card table without the leg.

The fac ilities, the equip ment, the problem in communicating to northern people, the ri ghts and their obligations, the avenues open to them, we have great potential to develop here because we have just re ally started to bri ng about changes and improve ments in the system of the administration of justice in northern communities. In the area of the legal aid as mentioned by the Honourable Member for Pembina, I want to simply say this that I, again to repeat to the Honourable Member for Pembina, that he need not feel distressed or concerned about the development of a legal aid system in Manitoba.

I think it's the very essence of any democratic society that people not just have ri ghts in theory but ri ghts in practice before the courts of the land, and without a legal aid system and without the fur ther extension of the pres ent legal aid system, the administration of justice, hearings before the courts in Manitoba would but be an empty shell.

Idle phraseology, and I say to the Honourable Member for Pembina that I know him, I know him to be a fair and re asonable man, that I'm sure with the passage of time that he will recognize the very important contr ibution that legal aid is making towards the improvement of the quality of life in Manitoba. I appr eciate the comments by the Honoura ble Member for Fort Rouge in res pect to the need for strengthening human ri ghts legislation in the Province of Manitoba. I think that the Commission has to some extent been handicapped in pursuing some of its objectives because of the defec tiveness of legislation.

We have court cases which have indicated the defe ctiveness in the present legislation and all that I can say to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is that the intention is to br ing to this House legislation in order to improve the human ri ghts legislation in Manitoba, because certainly human ri ghts legislation is one of the most impor tant contr ibutions that I think any government in any As sembly such as this would want to br ing to the community it repres ents . The questions that were raised in connection with the Liquor Co ntrol Commission stor e

323 4 May 7, 197 4 SUPPLY - AT TORNEY-GENE RA L (MR. PA WLEY cont'd) ..... at the corner of Donald and Ell ice, the new store at Main and Market. I would just mention to the Honourable Member for As siniboia that the Donald and Ellice store is be ing closed, will be closed within a couple of months, will be closed perma nently. It had a load of over $4 million; the rent is very high in that store; there was a heavy concentration of traffic movement in and out; it was becoming very diffi cult to handle properly.

I think the honourable member can, like myself, can recall many instances in which one has driven by that store to see an endless line-up of cabs and vehicles in front and the traffic jams that have been crea ted about that store. The intention is to divide that $4 million sales, because that would be pre tty well the approximate amount of sales within that particular part of the city, between two stor es.

One would be the store re ferred to at Main and Market, which from information that I've recei ved from the Liquor Control Co mmission we'll be obtaining further detail on, should not mean that there will be additional parking difficulties or pro blems in that area, and the opening of a store at Hargrave and Ellice which will in fact. split the business that was for merly handled at Donald and Ellice. I think the Honourable Member for As siniboia does have a point in respect to the problems involved at the Portage and Vimy Road store.

There has been a parking pro b lem and that store, unlike the downtown stores, cater mainly to motorists and to driver patr ons. And let me assure the Member for As siniboia that the Liquor Control Commission is engaged right now in attempting to obtain a solution to this problem, quite mindful of it, and I hope that within a short period of time I'll be able to give the honourable member some infor mation as to intentions on the part of the Commission in that regard.

The Honourable Member from Fort Rouge raised the question of pr ivate police, and I underst and and apprec iate very much the concern of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Ce rtainly we have seen in different countries of the world that where the pr ivate police for ce becomes too powerf ul an institution within any community that there often is a fo rce which is cr eated which often is detr imental to our entire fabric of government and that the development of such a force in itself can become very dangerous.

I'll be re questing the Manitoba Police Co mmission to give me information in this respe ct to attempt to develop some suggestions as to what constructive alternatives there can be for this type of develop ment because I have no easy answers to give to the Member for Fort Rouge. Because I've re cognized the fact that the more the high ri se res idential buildings we construct, the larger become our commercial institutions, more and more is going to be the trend towards this type of develop ment of a pri vate police for ce.

And I think all that we can do at this moment is identify that that is a prob lem, a concern, and that we should be attempting to ascertain whether there are alternatives to this type of development. On the question of cattle rustling, I would just mention to the Honourable Member for Lakeside that there has been considerable activity in the area of the courts deal ing with cattle rustl ing during the past year.

I have before me a memo which I would make available to the House detailing the convictions which have taken place dur ing the past year on cattle rustl ing and I note that some of them include sentences for one year, two years and also the report is to the cattle re ported missing or stolen during the past year. But the courts have dealt with these cases fairly severely wherever they have occurr ed. The problem has been one of course of detection and locating those that have committed those offences .

I know that there is con sideration being given to introduce legislation which will provide some more teeth in this res pect, which would include the possibility of confiscating the vehicles or any other equipment that is used in the process of rustling and I think we should be not hesitant in doing that. And I would hope that we would have something further to repor t on that for the benefit of the Honourable Member for Lakeside later.

On the question of bowling alleys, this is the reason of course for the var iation here from golf cour ses, curling clubs, is that the bowling alleys unlike the golf and curling clubs are generally not of the non-profit nature that the golf and the curling club is and thus the golf and curling clubs are able to obtain licenses but not the bowling alley, unless there is a res taurant attached within the bowling alley in which case sometimes a liquor license can be issued.

I note that the honourable member, I don't know whether he mentioned in the House but he, I think, did indicate to me pr ivately that he underst ands that other provinces are a little bit more liberal in this res pect than we are and certainly it's an area that I will re quest the commission to look at and give me further re ports on.

May 7, 197 4 3235 SUPPLY - ATT ORNEY-GEN ERA L (MR . PA WLEY cont1d) I think that's probably covered most of the items, if I've missed any don't hesitate to bring them to my attention. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . J. WALLY McKEN ZIE (Roblin) : Mr. Chairman, I'll try and be very brie f. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for this is the worst seat in the House to try and get the attention of the Chairman. I've been here many years and I know some of the members before and I do apolo gize for my limitations and the fact that I haven't got a strong voice or I'm not a big man. It's difficult.

Let me first of all congr atulate the Honourable Minister for the way he's conducting his Esti mates in the House. I wish that he would have the Minister of Agric ultur e and the Minister of Labour in the House tonight to see how this Minister is conducting his Estimates and per sever ing and br inging them through. Simple little questions that we raise, we don't get a 40 minute blast from the Minister opposite when we only need a two minute answer.

I congratulate him and I'm sure we'll get through his Estimates as quickly as we can with dispatch and we're going to get all the answers that we're asking for without this big booming voice that we get from the Minister of Agr iculture and the Minister of Labour. So I do congratulate the Honourable Minister for the way he's pres ented his Estimates and for the way he is re plying. My questions will be very brief cause ... A MEM BER : A booming voice from the Minister of Agric ulture? MR .

McKENZIE: The members that have spoken before me have raised many of the questions that I was going to raise but under the ter ms of the Manitoba Liquor Commission, and my deskmate has raised - there is no provis ion in the Estimates for us to deal with it, except under the Minister 's salary and I do have some questions. And, Mr. Chairman, I do wonder where we're going with the infractions of the Liquor Ac t that we see across this province. Weekend after weekend after weekend we see young kids rolli ng cars, ending up in hospitals, cut up and carved up and some of them ending up in the morgue.

And maybe it's a trend of the times, I don't know! Maybe we shouldn't have lowered the age of majorit y, I don't know! But I know in my own community, the constituents that I represent, the local municipal police for ce have thrown their hands up in disgust. One munici pal policeman can no longer police a little town or a village in rural Manitoba today. It just can't be done.

Because these kids are smart, they know how to undermine the police force; one kid knows how to take the policeman on a wild goose chase down the road on a speeding ticket and while he's away the other kids are in town doing U-turns on Main Street and tearing up the pavement and knocking out the windows in stores, businesses. And I can give you examples of where these policemen, these are honest-to-God policemen, their kids are harassed when their kids go to the local school because their father is a big cop. And they are being harassed.

They are being harassed to the extent--and I have evidence of a local policeman driving into the city on a weekend and he stops at Portage la Prairie to have a hot dog with his wife and his family, and those kids in Portage saw this police car with the stickers on the side and man, four kids get ahead of him and four behind him and they got his wife and his family in such a state he just had to pull his car off the road and leave himself. Now where are we going in Manitoba today?

And I'm sure, I don't know the answers and I'm sure maybe the Honourable Minister doesn't know the answers, but I think it's time that we got ser iously to study this problem. And I'm sure your records show, like the records of Mr .... will show, that it's a real ser ious problem that we have in this province today where young people today for some re ason just don't respect the law enf orcement agencies. Maybe, possibly, the RCM P are the answer or you can put in a big police force, do with six or seven men but I suspect in my jurisdic tion that one municipal policeman can no longer police one village today.

It can't be done. How can he police it 12 hours a day or 24 hours a day and have the problem with his kids be ing harassed in school because he's a policeman or have, when he's out on a Sunday afternoon, to try and have a ham burger or a cold drink with his family and these kids are on his back. And that's a fact, I can back ever ything that I'm giving to the Honourable Minister is factual. I'm not standing here trying to make an issue of something that's just passing by. It's a ser ious matter and I think it's time that we as legislators be very ser ious about it and try and deal with it.

And I'm sure most of the members that sit ar ound this Chamber have the same pro blem in

3236 May 7, 1974 SUPPLY - AT TORNEY-GEN ERA L (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) ..... their areas if they'd only recognize it because it's there. Now whether in fact it's because we've lowered the age of majority and the young people are being given the ri ghts to go and imbibe in liquor, I don't know. Or maybe it's because the young people today have learnt through the example that's taking place in Ireland where it's legal today to bomb your neighbour out. I don't know! Or is the world changing and this is a trend that we're going to have to live with and be satisfied with the rest of our lives. Well I wonder !

But I think and I, in all sincer ity, I rai se it on good faith and I think that the Attorney-General with his staff would maybe take a look at it and if it's not a problem in your district, it sure is a problem in mine. So I wish you'd just take my words in good faith. I'm honest and I'm sincere about what I'm talking about. It's a real pr oblem in my constituency. And I suspect that there is many members of the House that have the same problem and I think that it's time that we dealt with it. And maybe we can't get the answers and maybe we can't solve it but I think we should take a look at it. Mr.

Chair man, let me go back again--(I nterj ection)-- I can't vouch for Swan. I apologize. This is a new Attorney-General and I again appeal to this At tor ney-General for the pro blem at Pine River. I think I've had it three years in a row. An honest Ukrainian lady running a good clean rest aura nt, nice tables, good food, all the facilities she's put in by her hard-earned sweat and toil of herself and all she asks for is the ri ght to sell a glass of wine or a glass of beer when somebody wants food. And that apparently is the in-thing today.

And for some re ason the former Attorney-General and the Liquor Commiss ion will not, and I'm sure when the Honourable Minister looks at the file the letters are that thick - it's the only re staurant between Dauphin and Swan Ri ver that can seat 40 people. Then why can't she have a license ? The other few things, Mr. Chairman, and it's re al quick. The cattle rustl ing has been looked after. I'm wondering in the Estimates that the Honourable Minister has pres ented to us tonight and maybe I could deal with that when we come to it on clause by clause and I'll raise those questions.

But the other, the point that I do raise - it's interesti ng - the schools today, young people today are allowed to drag beer into schools. And you know, they're Grade 12. There's locker rooms in my constituency where you can go and get yours elf a six pack of beer today. --(I nter jection)--There are and I'm sure there's members--well the Father over there says "Shame" and I say "Shame" too but it's happening and it's a fact. That a young person today 18 years of age can go downtown at 12 o'clock noon, when it's noon, buy a six beer and take it back and put it in his locker.

That's the law, it's legal. -- (Interjectio n)--C ertainly it's legal, in a school. That's his locker, that's his pri vate place. -- (Interj ection)--W ell the Premier says he can't do it. Well, let the Premier or the law enfor cements agency go and try and take that out of his locker and see what's happened. Or let you go and be the pr incipal of that school and try and do that. And you know what happens to you. A MEM BER: The students strike. MR. McKEN ZIE: And then you become a hated person. The students react. Well certainly.

Well it's interesting where, you know, you get the chuckling and the smiles of the members opposite but, Mr. Chairman, I'm talking here tonight in all sincerity and they don't recognize that this is a pro blem. I'll bet you if the Attorney-General goes around this province and checks out with some of the princ ipals of our schools and the super intendents of our schools, you'll find that that's a problem in darn near every jur isdiction of this province. And it's a ser ious problem. Not only is there liquor in there, there's drugs as well. --(In terject ion)- This is the typical reaction, Mr.

Chairman, that we get from this government. They think they're the saints; they think there's nothing that can happen in this province that's bad as long as they're government. And as long as we in opposition stand up and raise these points in all serio usness - and the Minister of Ed ucation sits over there and chuckles like an old fat woman - he knows what's going on in the schools of this province. --(I nterjectio n)-- He sure does. Yes, and what has he done about it ? Absolutely nothing. But, Mr. Chair man, I was never more sincere in this Legislature than I am as I stand and rais e these points tonight.

And I think if we as legislators don't take a look at it and maybe we can't resolve it but I say we should take a look at it and see if we can resolve it. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FE RGUSON (Gladstone) : Well thank you, Mr. Chair man. I guess I'm the last speaker left, that's why I was recognized. I'd like to thank the Chairman. But in any

May 7, 197 4 3237 SUPPLY - AT TORNEY-GENERA L (MR . FERGU SON cont'd} .•... event most of the things that I did want to cover have been spoken about and I won't re peat myself. I think we have a reason ably good oppor tunity of getting the Attorney -Ge neral's Estimates through this evening so consequently I won't take up very much of his time.

The two things that basically bother me are: One, the first of course would be rustling, the dr astic increase we've had and we felt that possibly there would be some legislation brou ght in this Sess ion whereby there would be stiffer penalties and this has been covered to a degree but as I say there has been no legislation br ought in. The second again, of course, would be the subject that I've brou ght forward many times and it's beginning to sound like a broken re cord, consequently I think that this will probably be the last time that I will be br inging it up.

This again of course is in the jacklighting field and over the course of this Session with this new Attorney-General I have attempted to get some reassu ranc e that he would make a move. The former Attorney-General many times got up and said it was a terrible thing, etc. , etc. but he was very loathe to make a move and he denied at grea t length that the subject that I was on and the people that I was accusing that I was on the wrong track. I had no proof.

Well I have I think a letter here from the pres ent Minister of Mines and Re sources whereby from the per iod of September 8th to November 23rd the appre hensions in the province of Manitoba for nightlighting is 103 to the native population, and 24 to the whites. Now I think that this is fairly good proof to back up the statements that I have been making here whereby I have been ri diculed a few times and basically said that statements were made that I did not have the proof. And to combat this municipalities are showing ... MR . GREEN : Mr .

Chairman, I wonder if the honourable member would re peat the statistic. If he's holding the letter would he repe at the statistic that he gave. MR. FERGUSON: Ce rtainly. The statistics I am quoting are for September 8th to November 23rd. The total native hunters checked is 10 3, the non native hunters checked is 24. -- (Interjection}-- Very well, you can trust the words but by the same token if you are o_ut dr iving around with a car and a gun in the car and are checked this more or less constftutes the same thing as I'm stating. Our municipal gover nments have shown considerable concern.

Three of the munic ipali ties in my area have bylaws, Langford, Lansdowne and Rose dale have all put through bylaws basically banning night hunting or shooting after dark and basically these bylaws are not worth the paper they're written on, under the prese nt cir cumstances, and consequently they have gone to the trou ble of doing this for nothing. The Federal Govern ment puts the blame for enforcement of cour se on the Pr ovincial Govern ment, on priv ate land, and the Minister- -questions I asked on March 29th are more or less said that trespass was up to the individual to pros ecute.

Well I don't feel that this is something that is ri ght at all. I don't think that the option should be on the individual to be out polic ing his land, pu tting the finger on someone that's on his propert y. I would like to have the Attorney-General with me some night when he goes out to check a couple of carlo ads of jacklighting Indians and when they are half full of booze and I would like to have him make a citizen's arrest or I would like to have him lay charges. It would be a pleasure to have you with me, Mr. Attorney-General.

Again the municipalities have made a suggestion to the Attorney -General's office, as I understand, that those individuals that des ire to lay trespassing charges can be issued or will obtain a special type of sign whereby the conser vation officer and the RCM P can lay charges without the owner of the land being pres ent. I'm quite sure that the Minister is aware of this, if he isn't of course I will give it to him. And I believe that we are paying taxes to have our laws upheld. I don't feel that we should have to be the ones that are out be ing sure that they are enf orced.

And I would like to have some information from the Attorney -General now whether or not he has talked to the federal officials and whether or not that something can be done about change in the 1930 Ac t. Mind you I think that the big end of the people in Manitoba would be satisfied to leave it stand as it is, respect the ri ghts of the pr ivate individual on pr ivate proper ty and do away with the jacklighting. Outside of that I don't think there is any hang-up anywhere.

But any law that's 44 years old, I believe that in all cases or in most cases they can be updated and possibly br ought into line with what pres ent day thinking is. I think the Minister has got to be quite aware of the fact that there has been a considerable change in the

3238 May 7, 197 4 SUPPLY - AT TORNEY-GENERA L (MR . FERGU SON cont'd ) ..... cir cumstances whereby in 1930 someone was hunting for food; today they are hunting for possibly a little extra liquor money or something along this line. Now I don't think that I'm going to take any more time of the House. I think this will be pr obably the wrap-up speech on the Attorney-Gener al's estimates. --(I nterjection)-- No, I'm sorry, I guess it won't be.

But I would like the Attorney-General to give some assurance that at least he is thinking a little bit about this, he is taking some consideration of some of the things that have been put forth to him or if we're just going to thump along the way we are. I was at a meeting of the Game and Fish As sociations I believe two weeks or three weeks ago Saturday, whereby they are talking of a closed season in the Province of Manitoba in many areas because of the fact that the deer population is so depleted.

And there's no point in going through the farce of having conservation officers, biologists and the rest of it if you've got nothing to protect. And if this government is not going to take it upon themselves to at least back up the people that do have pr ivate land, why I think we may as well write our deer herds off in the Pr ovince of Manitoba and we'll go on from there. And I think, Mr. Chairman, that's all I have to say at this time and thank you. . . . . • continued on next page

May 7, 197 4 SUPPLY -A TTORNEY -GENERAL MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable the Attorney-Gene ral . 3239 MR . PAWLEY : Mr . Chairman, I would like to of course read in more detail the com ments of the honourable member in Hansard when it is out. I am concerned of course about the ultra vires featur es of some of the areas that he is dealing with because provincial or municipal laws don't mean a thing if they're contrary to treaty rights or other obligations that are established country-w ide .

I do rec ognize that there is a problem in respect to trespassi ng insofar as private land is concerned and I do recognize the concern of the municipalities in Manitoba about this recurri ng problem. And pos sibly I could re -examine this and possibly at some other opportunity we could deal with this in some more detail after I' ve had opportunity to fur ther pursue it . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR . SHERMAN : Mr .

Chairman, I don't wish to allow these estimates to pass without making one or two comments in an area in which I am particularly concerned and direc ting them to-the Attorney -General for his attention . I refer specifically, Sir , to the area of juve nile offenders in our society and the treatment of juvenile offenders and the correc tive meas ures that are taken for eliminating as much in the way of juvenile criminal offence as is pos sible . I have spoken once or twice formally and informally in the past on this subject.

I know the Attorney-General is aware of my concern in this area and I know he shares my concern . I want to put two or three things on the record for his consideration at this juncture . I also want to make reference to my colle ague, the Honourable Member for Birtle Russell , who will be saying some things in the general area of the Depart ment of the Attorney General and his estimates, and who shares my concern with this particular subject .

He and I have discussed different aspects of it to which we 've been exposed in our constituencies and elsewhere and if he doesn 't make heavy reference to it in his remarks , Mr . Chairman , it will simply be for the sake of avoiding repetition . It will simply be that he is aware of the fact that I wanted to bring it to the Attorney-Gen eral 's attention especially and so while endorsing what I say, he will not necessarily be repea ting it .

The fact that he doesn't make heavy empha sis of it however should not be construed as an indication that he's not concerned because he is as concerned as I, and as I say, we have talked about it together . The subject is particularly worrisome to me because I, in my own constituency in Fort Garry, have had some experience with it in the past year or two and many of my constituents have been very concerned and very disturbed by the activities of juvenile offenders and the degree to which they feel and I feel the law is handicapped in trying to cope with such offenders .

I don't think that this kind of unfortunate situation is in any way the private monopoly of any one constituency or any one area . I' m sure that most parts of the provinc e, if not most parts or our country , if not most places in western society, have a problem with juvenile offenders to day .

It happens however that there was a spotlight placed on some events and unfortun ate in cidents in the Fort Richmond area of Fort Garry during the past year and as a consequence of having the attention of the media focus on it, it became a prominent news story and much attention and much publicity was given that particular re sidential area as a re sult. Btit I would like to stress that I think it would be unfair for anyone to conclude or assume that the problem is exclusive to that area or to any other particular individual area . I think we suffer from it generally .

I think in many instances there are cases of juvenile crime and juvenile offence against society which simply go unreported or undetected and, as a consequence, they don't have the attention focused on them and I think there are also cases where because of intimi dation and harassment there are people who are the victims of the acts of juvenile offenders who fear coming for ward, who fear reporting the incident .

This I would suggest is particu larly true in the case of other juveniles who sometimes have violence and other for ms of unpleasant activity to fear from gangs of toughs in their particular neighbourhoods. The reason why that particular pleasant res idential part of my constituency - namely Fort Richmond - was so rudely thrust into the limelight was because in this case , or in these cases , those who were intimidated and those who were victimized finally decided that society had had enough and that they should speak up and come forw ard and bring it to the attention of the public through the media. Mr .

Chairman, there are several citizens' groups hard at work in my constituency as a re sult of some unfortunate beatings that were administered to school-age youngsters in Fort

3240 May 7, 197 4 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-G ENE RAL (MR. SHERMAN cont 'd) . . . . . Ga rry la st year, and in fact over the course of the pa st few years, and these committees by their very exi sten ce refle ct the concern and the con scientious ne ss of pa rents and of people in our society generally with the problem at hand. I think that many members of tho se committees share the feeling which I also share that no one expects a society and it s members whether of the age of majority or whether minors to be perfect.

But one doe s expect that where there are offences carried out again st the law- abiding members of society, the re should be substantial machinery of support in our legi slative proce ss for the law-ab iding. There should be substantial forms of support to in sure that the law-abidin g are protected in sofar as it's po ssible again st that kind of ac tivity, and the re should be forms of machinery in our society which make it po ssible to deal with the offenders and to try to reha bilitate them.

The difficulty it seems to me, Sir, is that in our quest for liberali sm - in the best sense of the word - in society over the pa st half century, we may have gone too far in being open-minded about the action s and the behaviour of young people and indeed all people in our society. We may have set some bad example s for our young people and we have, I am afraid, weakened the powers of ou r police force s and our courts to deal with the offences when they occur. There were one or two unfo rtunate in cident s in my con stituen cy last year that were pa r ticularly repugnant.

They invol ved gangs or groups of young tough s physically beating up on one or two or more other teen-age rs and perhaps worse than that intimidating many others in the community and scaring many into silence. I've had people tell me in fact that the re are, you know, pa rts of our city in which they're reluctant to walk at night on a summer evening becau se of the pre sence of some of these young tough s who seem to feel they own the sidewalks and the streets and the pa rks. Now that, Sir, is a tragic commentary on any of our con stit uen cie s.

It' s a tragic commentary on our social envi ronment and I know that the Attorn ey Gener al agree s with me. Some report s of course are somewhat hysterical perhaps but in the main the people who have elected to fonn citizen s' committees in Fort Ga rry and Fort Richmond and work on thi s subject, are highly respon sible, highly con scientious, well motivated persons who have rea sons for doing what they're doing and who are working quietly and objectively and sensibly toward s the finding of some kind of solution to thi s problem.

I think that the attitude of society, and that include s all of us, is pa rtly to blame. I don't recommend for a moment that we revert to a kind of a punit ive philo sophy, to a kind of a philo sophy of vengean ce. I think that the rea son why many young people who commit offences again st society do so is becau se (1) they have been set a bad example by elements in our adult society, and (2) they have been through no fault of their own di sadvantaged economically and socially and (3) they live in built-up, bu sy, impersonal urban communities in which there are very few outlets for healthy activi ty .

And those are all problems that we as legislators and we as adult s and we as citizen s of Manitoba can deal with and do something about . And I cite tho se as pro bably the three primary causes of the kind of social illne ss that I'm talking about. But along side those, Mr. Chairman, I suggest to the committee and to the Honourable Attorney-Gener al that we have allowed probably submissively and probably unintentionally, a kind of an attitude to spring up in our society today which ha s a tenden cy to turn a blind eye to the law, to laugh at the law and in many in stances to en courage flouting of the law.

We have, I think, in our eager rush to be humane and to be progressive and to be liberal, hand cuffed our police and hand cuffed our law officers and hand cuffed some of those who carry out the respon sibilitie s of the department which the Attorney-Gene ral head s to the poin t that where offenders are ap prehended, nothing can be done about it. Nothing can be done to either impre ss up on them the fact that they have committed a wrong or to in sure that society will be protected from a repetition of that kind of ac tivity.

I have talked to many police officers in Fort Ga rry whom I don't wi sh to identify by name but I'm sure the Attorney-Gener al and hi s departmental head s know them all and could go to any one of them from Chief Arthur Bridgwater down and find the same story, who have told me of their frustration in trying to deal with juvenile offenders after they've ap prehended them.

There have been situation s in the Fort Richmond part of Fort Ga rry where the police have known who the offending juveni les were, have had many many in stances brought to their atten tion, many in which they pa rti cipated themselves, where these identified and identifiable juvenile offenders have broken the law and hara ssed and intimidated people and who have given up in effect, and I use that phra se advi sedly, in sofar as ap prehending tho se pa rticular

May 7, 1974 324 1 SU PPLY -A TTORNEY -GENER AL (M R. SHERMAN cont 'd) .. ... juveniles is concerne d. Be cause they have picked them up in the past , they've taken them down to the pol ice statio n, they 've tried to deal with them and with in anywhere from 15 minutes to 24 hours the youngsters are out free , they 're laughin g at the law , they 're flout ing the law , they 're thumbing their noses at the pol ice and they 're doing the same th ings over and over aga in.

I've sat in living rooms of people in Fort Ga rry and had these stories told to me and I assure the Honourable Attorney -General that I speak from a considerable attempt at research into th is subject in my particular constit uency. The problem seems to be that among the rest of us well -meaning citizens of society there are well -meaning people in the social welfare field .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The time being 10 o'clock and the time for adjou rnment . The House Leader . MR. GREEN: .. .

Due to the fact that the Mini ster is leav ing and appar ently there is an indi cation that with one or two members speaking that his depar tment will be finished, there was some indic ation, and I'm not push ing it , that we would stay and let those speakers cont inue and maybe be responded to in just a few minutes. MR . CHAIRMAN: (Agreed) The Hon ourable Member for Fort Garry . MR . SHERMAN : Thank you , Mr. Chair man . I thank the Members of the Committee. The problem, as I was saying , Mr. Ch

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-118
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 118.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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