Manitoba Hansard — 10 May 1979 (Sitting 58A, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-58a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

• .. ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 58A 2:30 P.M. Thursday, May 10, 1979 Office of the Queen 's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

.. .. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 10, 1979 Time: 2:30 p.m . OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the Gallery where we have 58 students, of Grade Five standing, from Carpathia School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Berg. Miller and Mrs. Shape ra. This school is in the constituency of River Heights. We also have 20 students, of Grades Four and Five standing, from Red River Valley School. These students are under the direction of Miss Magoon .

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Elmwood . On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I rise to make a non-political statement in tribute to Leonard Shebeski of the Faculty of Agriculture , University of Manitoba. Dean Shebeski will be retiring this summer .

Dean Shebeski has made many contributions to Manitoba, Canadian and world-wide agriculture . -' His high level of academic and scientific ability , coupled with outstanding enthusiasm, has had many important influences on the agricu ltural development. He has been involved in a number of distinct scientific discoveries,

part icularly in the area of crop production . He was involved in the development of Triticale, and partly because of his initiative and interest in exploring such new fields , this research project was conducted at the University of Manitoba. With this kind of guidance the particular crop has become known worldwide . First, as head of the Plant Science Department, and late r as Dean of the Faculty of Agriculture at the University of Manitoba, Dr. Shebeski has been a real stimulus to his staff in his research work .

This has resulted in many new approaches and findings in the agriculture research field. • In with Dr. Shebeski's great dedication to effective research work and teaching at the university, he has maintained very good contact with the farmers in Manitoba and in Western Canada. This has meant that he is well known among farm people which, in turn, increases the acceptability and trustworthiness of the Faculty of Agriculture .

He has also been recognized as an outstand ing research authority in international circles as witnessed by his membership on international development agencies as well as his frequent call to other countries for the presentation of research information and evaluation of ongoing programs . - ..._ On behalf of all Manitobans , I would like to extend to Dean Shebeski our sincere appreciation .. for his dedication and service to agriculture and to wish him a forthcoming, happy retirement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines, Resources and the Environment. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker , I wish to table the May 10th Flood Report of the Water Resources Division . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to announce to the Members of the House that a new Manitoba Savings Bond Issue will go on sale beginning June 18th with the two-fold purpose of providing capital funds for public use, and providing Manitobans with an opportunity to invest in these Manitoba bonds . They are fully registered , ten-year bonds and will carry an interest rate of 9.5 percent and, as 3979

Thursday, May 10, 1979 has been the case with past issues, they will be redeemable at par any time after six months from the issue date of July 1, 1979. This is the 12th issue since the Manitoba Savings Bond series was star ted 18 years ago . The present 5 issues have not yet matured; these are the years 1970, 1974, 1976, 1977 and 1978. The bonds outstan ding from these issues amount to $82 ,316,000 .00.

The decision to go ahead wi th the new series at this time has been made largely with investment opportunities for Manitobans in mind, and of Course , in part, the government's intent to provide as much investment from within Canada , and Manitoba in particular in , mind . It enables tbe average Manitoban who may i w sh to invest in their province to do so through a savings bond vehicle. Bonds will be sold at par through cbartered banks, investment dealer s, trust companies, credit unions and caisse populaires.

They will be issued in denominations of $100, $500, $1,000 , $5,000 with a $50 ,000 maximum to any one person . The sales are limit d e to residents of Manitoba of all ages inc:luding incorporated companies , societies, associations or trusts having a registered office in the province, and to any local government organ izations in the province . The province, Mr. Speaker , reserves the right to close off the sale on two business days ' notice . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks . MR. SAUL A. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the minister 's announcement.

Just a few days ago , we exchanged notes and it was my impression that we were not going to have a bond issue in Manitoba, and I was very sorry to hear that but, I'm pleased that this afternoon, the minister was able to announce this particular issue . You know , I believe that Manitoba has benefited a great dea l since it was decided that Manitoba 's government should look to its own citizens , give them the opportunity to invest within Manitoba and as a means of raising funds within our own province .

And it's interesting to note that in the previous issues , there are 5 previous issues at $82,000,000 still outstanding. In other words , people are prepared to leave the money with the government and collect on their interest rates which are paid, I believe, annually or semi-annually, I forget which .

I'm assuming that these bonds, like previous bonds, will be cashable after 6 months and that makes them a particularly attractive bond because, in essence , they are really very liquid, they're a demand note after 6 months, and this makes it very attractive for most people who don't want to tie up their funds for three years or five years or even one year .

But the interest rat e, I believe 9-% percent, although not as high as one can get today investing in other means as to even term deposits, I believe that interest rates are on the way down and that the 9-% percent will attract Manitoba investors both large and small, and that's what makes this particular issue, the Manitoba Savings Bonds, interesting and attractive and I am pleased that the moneys that are raised within Manitoba are being spent in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. Edward McGILL Brandon West)introduced Bill No. 50,

An Act to amend The Manitoba Telephone Act. (Recommended by the Lieutenant-Governor) ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. HOW1"RD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, further to questions that I raised in the House to the Minister of Labou r, and further to informatiom which the Minister of Labour forwarded to me through my office, I would ask the Minister of Labour if in fact he would confirm that the information which was forwarded to me by himself , dealing with the days lost in Manitoba due to work stoppages due to lockouts and strikes, indicate in fact an increase of 1000 percent, 1978 over 1977 and in fact if you exclude the construction strike a 500 percent increase in days lost, 1978 over 1977. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker , that never was a secret in my mind, it was just a matter of giving the Leader of the Opposition the entire picture as it was across Canada and there was a substan tial increase in every jurisdiction in the country , suspected to be basically in a lot of cases because of the coming out of the AlB period . The same downward trend, if you look at all the figures, indicates that the desire to go farther than the limitations that were placed 3980 .. .. -.

• • Thursday, May 10, 1979 by that Legislation was not evident with workers and last year they felt justified to try and get back some of the things that they felt that they had lost during that

part icular period . Those figures are correct and that's why I forwarded the entire position of other jur isdi ct ions to the Leader of the Oppositio n. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary, the member suggests that the reasO n for the increase is due to the coming out of the AlB, but at the same time I wonder if the Minister could confirm that in fact if one totals all jurisdictions in Canada, all provinces, that the percentage of increase in days lost due to lockouts and strikes, increased in Matoba 's ratio of the total from just under 1 percent in 1977 Manitoba's share to just under 4 percent as Manitoba 's share in 1978. MR. MacMASTER: I produced the figures, Mr. Speaker , I suspect that they're correct. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then a question to the Attorney-General. Last year during the Legislative Session, questions were raised to the Attorney-General in connection with the Student Program, in which students were being hired in order to work with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and two questions. It was indicated that those students would not have access to rifles or to shotguns, and would be under constant supervision . Is the minister prepa red to confirm reports to the effect that in fact , students do have access to shotguns while on patrol and in fact have carried same under patro l?

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General, HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Yes, Mr, Speaker. I am prepared to review that newspaper report that I think the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is referring to, with the RCMP authorities . MR. PAWLEY: I would ask the Attorney-General if in fact the same practice will be continued insofar as the forthcoming summer or is this particular program under review in that particular respect by his department? MR. MERCIER: That will depend on my review of this matter with the RCMP , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose. MR.

A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Highways . I wonder if the Minister of Highways could verify if there were any snow-ploughs out working in the vicinity or proximity of Erickson during a storm in the area where a fatal accident occurred, claiming the lives of five people and hospitalizing two others, I believe, in a very serious condition. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I'd have to take that question as notice.

I cannot indicate to him whether or not there were snow-ploughs operating in that particular vicinity , but I will take the question as notice and inform the member tomorrow morning . Mr. Speaker, perhaps while I'm on my feet, I can just indicate to the honourable members of the House and through you , Sir, to the members of the fourth estate, that we anticipate the citizens of the community of Emerson, to be able to return to their community starting tomorrow at noon. Thank you . MR. ADAM: Yes.

I would ask the minister therefore , if he could also take as notice, whether or not the snow-ploughs went out after the accident , and also if he could confirm if it is correct that there was approximately ten inches or 25 centimeters of snow at the time of the accident, and that there was only two ruts in that particular area , - and only one track where a vehicle could operate at the time of the accident? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I'm certainly prepared to get all the information that the member requests. I think, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member will also begin to appreciate the difficult ies that the 3981

Thursday, May 10, 1979 High ways Minister faces. His colleague , the Member for Rupertsland, yesterday was asking why ~

part icular roads weren't getting their regular gravel maintenance on the roads . I can indic ate to the honourable member that the crews, as they would norma lly, have by thi s time taken most of the snow Elquipment off the maintainers , not anticipating 15 or 20 millimeters of snow at this time , but I will check the actual situation , Mr. Speaker, and provide that information to the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. SIDNIEY GREEN: Mr. Spea ker, I have a question to address to the Honou rable Minister of Labour .

Can the Minister of Labour advise me whether he has now rejected the request by the Manitoba Theatre Centre to appoint an arbitration board under an agreement to find out if the ~ agreement exists? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: My answer to the member yesterday is similar to what it is tod ay. I had suggested yesterday that in my opinion the appropriate thing for the parties to do was to apply to the Manitoba Labour Board to try to resolve their differen ces.

I have since advised the Manitoba Theatre C13ntre that I will not be appointing an arbitrator and the Member for Inkster, I believe , represents the union so that advice holds true for both . I think they should go to the Labour Board ~ and attempt to resolve this dispu te . MR. GREI:N: Mr. Speaker , the honourable member should be aware that I represent the Constituency of Inkster at the present time and if he raises the other matter , the union never made any request to the Minister of Labour .

I take it the Minister is confirming that the request of the Manitoba Theatre Centre Board requesting an arbitrator , which the union said is not appropriate, has been rejected . MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker , the Member for Ink ter is well aware of the arbitration procedure , I suppose, much better than myself and I find it would be an impossible situation to appoint an arbitrator in this particular case . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplementary . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I merely wish to thank the Minister for accepting my representations to him in that connection . I do, Mr.

Speaker , have a question of privilege which relates to one of the members of the House but more particularly it relates to the New Democratic Party as an organization. It is reported in today's newspaper in an

article which is so clearly wrong that I would have attributed it to " Ted Stupidly " except that it is signed by Fred Cleverley and therefore I cannot attribute it to my pseudonym, that Larry Desjardins , running for the New Democratic Party for the first time was defeated i the election as a New Democrat. Mr. Speaker , I have here a statement to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council indicating that the election in which that occurred was void and it therefore is not an election and that the first election that Larry Desjardins ran in as a - - New Democrat, he won handily over Paul Marion. MR.

SPE)I~KER: The honourable member did not have a point of privilege . The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Labour. Due to the fact that in your platform many times you have stated that you believe in open government. Your Premier said , " My door will always be open. " Why do you refuse to meet with the Injured Workers Association? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker , I haven 't refused to meet with the Injured Workers Association.

They have had meetings with my Deputy and I understand they are arranging a specific date to meet with me. MR. BARFIOW: I'm glad to hear that, Mr . Speaker . My second question is to anyone over there 3982 .. ..

• Thursday, May 10, 1979 who cares to answer. The question is this, Mr. Speaker: The media has come in for lots of criticism, the Free Press and the Tribune, which at times I think is most unfair, - - especially that

article "Under The Dome" , but anyhow, Mr. Speaker, a major source of the media who is kno wn to be astute, honest, intelligent, and prophetic , has come out supporting that great party, the New Democrats : The Toronto Star. My question is this, Mr. Speake r, I just happen to have 33 subscriptions . Would they accept them in good faith? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I'll answer a question from several days back from the Member for St. Johns with regard to the longer term bond issue that was done in U.S. currency .

These date back to April 27th, and there was a number of questions posed by the Member for St. Johns . He asked about the comparable province issue rate that would have been comparable to the issue we did had we gone in the Canadian market, and the market at that time, Canadian, would have been approximately 10.5 percent. The effective cost of the loan - second part question - in Japan, after taking into, in American dollars, account all the costs of the issue, the discounts, servicing of the interest charges over the life of the issue and so it works out to an effective rate of 10 percent.

The effective yield to the lenders - this was another part of the question - was 9.92 percent. The impact of foreign currency fluctuations on the issue is that the province will gain over a comparable issue in Canada , if the Canadian dollar should have an average value over the life of the issue greater than 85.95 cents Canadian dollar to the U.S. dollar. And the value at the date of the issue was 87.57 cents U.S. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Elmwood . MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism and Cultural Affairs .

In view of the $50,000 grant to the Diefenbaker Museum or Archives in Saskatchewan - new-found neys for that purpose - can Manitoba 's troubled artistic community anticipate additional funding for their capital and operating grants? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister . HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I think that we are doing a great job of helping all the major arts as they have been having some form of problem or another. We certainly haven't been turning our backs on them . MR.

DOERN: In the event that the Museum of Man and Nature is unable to meet its goal of raising money for a new forest gallery and for general operating - it's on a sharing basis- will the Minister ensure that there will not be any layoffs or that the new gallery will not. . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The question is hypothetical. The Honourable Member • for Elmwood. .. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to rephrase it. Can the Minister report whether the Museum is on target in its fund raising efforts to build a new gallery and to meet their capital requirements? - MRS. PRICE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , I believe they are on target. They have a very extensive fund raising going on that I hear they are doing quite well at . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary. ~ MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , again , given the fact that the government was able to find $50,000 for the Diefenbaker Grant, which I do not criticize on its own, I would again ask the Minister whether in view of the fact that that money was found, new money which apparently was not budgeted for, can the Minister assure us that the local art community will not go wanting and I would ask her on that basis whether she . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is repetitive . Does the Honourable Member for Elmwood want a final supplementary? 3983

Thursday, May 10, 1979 MR. DOERN: Bearing in mind the Diefenbaker Grant and the needs of our community, does the Minister subscribe to the old adage that charity begins at home? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Highways .

In view of the report I received yesterday regarding the airstrip at Poplar River in my constituency, which apparently was in a rather dangerous condition for the aircraft landing there, I wonder . - if the Minister could investigate the allegation that the equipment that is supposed to be utilized in maintaining the airstrip is no longer serviceable and was not serviceable over this last period of time when bad weather conditions created a very serious condition regarding that airstrip's performance and the ability of the aircraft to land and take off safely . MR.

SPE)IlKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation . MR. ENN!;: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice . MR. SPEJ~KER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEOPIARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would like to address a question to the Minister of Economic Development , also responsible for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation .

I wonder if the Honourable Minister could explain to the House why MHRC could not sell a piece of land to one, Terry Balkan , the new owner of Shaino 's Limited, and thereby providing one reason at least for the moving of the head office of Shaino 's from Winnipeg to Vancouve r. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker , the land Mr. Balkan refers to was a piece of land on Garry Street which the Board decided would not be for sale and anyway it would have had to have been up for tender .

When the member says, could we have possibly found him one piece of land , yes, we could have found him - - several but we were not prepared to sell that piece of land and it would have had to have been on public tender at any rate . MR. EVAIIIS: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I would like to ask the Minister a supplementary question and ask the Honourable Minister , in his capacity as Minister of Economic Development , did he request his staff to actively work with Mr. Balkan to do whatever they could, to have them do whatever they could , to dissuade Mr. Balkan from moving his operations from Winnipeg to Vancouver?

MR. JOHNSTON: My staff has had conversation with Mr. Balkan , Mr. Speaker. I can assure you that Mr. Balkan has interests in B.C., as he has all the way across Canada, and he prefers to go and live in Vancouver or that area . Just the same , Mr. Speaker , I am often wondering why we weren't congratulated when New York Life announced their head office in Winnipeg . MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to ask another supplementary question to the Minister of Economic Development and ask him if he can confirm that the much heralded multi-million dollar Canada-Manitoba Industrial Sub-Agreement was of no use whatsoever in this instance in attracting Mr. Balkan to the Province of Manitoba as opposed to moving to Vancouver? MR.

JOHIIISTON: The multi-million dollar sub-agreement is an infrastructure support to small towns to help them build up their present businesses and it is not designed for companies that are making in excess of $500,000 in sales and we happen to know very obviously that Mr. Balkan does not Qualify for any grants of that nature, thank God . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. J. R. (Bud) BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education . MR. SPEAKER: Order please . I wonder if the honourable members could give the member the opportunity of asking his questions . MR.

BOYCE: Through you to the Minister of Education , Mr . Speaker . Subsequent to the 3984 .. .. ..

II ... - Thursday, May 10, 1979 of Bill 52 in the House, I have had several calls from people represe nting students with special needs. Is the government in a position to clarify their inte ntion as far as the educational needs of children who have special needs in the provi nce? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Educa tio n. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Spea ker, I assume the Member for Win nipeg Centre is referring to Bill 22, not 52. In that regard, Mr.

Speaker , provisio n for the educational programming of students in this program is dealt with in tha t particular bill and I will be quite prepared to comment on it at the suitable time. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Speaker , I perhaps need a little direction in asking this kind of questio n, because I don't want to be out of order by entering a debate on Bill 22 at this time , but in the bill itse lf it calls for the repeal of certain Acts , but now we are asking questions relat ive to a bill which was passed by this Legislature but never proclaimed .

It was quite a comprehensive bill , so is the Minister actually telling us that Bill 58 is now scrapped and that that which was intended to be covered by Bill 58 should be included in our discussion on Bill 22 when it comes up for debate in the House? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speake r, I think I would have to take that particular question as notice . I am a bit pertu rbed , as the Member for Winnipeg Centre , as to whethe r we are getting into a debate on that

part icular bill at this tim e; I don 't know whether that is suitabl e or not. I will take his question as notice . MR. BOYCE: I want to thank the Minister for his taking it as not ice, Mr. Chairman . I certainly don't want to be out of order but perhaps , Mr. Speaker , you can see the dilemma , that people are asking , the people in the province are asking whether it is the intention of the government to have that which was included in a bill passed by this Legislature , in legislation which is up for current discussion in the House .

So I'm sure the people in the province would appre ciate some clarification of the government 's position as to that which was passed by this House, included as Bill 58, but which is not a statute of the Prov ince of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is d irected to the Minister of Finance . Can the Minister confirm statements attributed to him outside the House that the Government White Paper on Tax Credits would not be brought before the Legislature until after the May 22nd Federal Election? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR.CRAIK: Mr.Speaker , that 's essent ially true that the questions were in reference as to whether the White Paper would be included with the Budget ; I indicated that in view of the May 22nd federal election and the various platforms , there were three major political parties in the election; that there were implica tions as far as some aspects of the White Paper were concerned , and it would be more appropriate to wait until after the May 22nd election. To get some idea, Mr.

Speaker , i n the event that the New Democratic Party form government in Ottawa , the ir present platform would certainly have an influence on our Wh ite Paper , because I think that they're advocating one program that is almost identical to a former NDP Program here and, of course, Mr. Speaker, if that disaster should occur , it would have a very profound effect on our White Paper. MR.

PARASIUK: Since Parliament would have to meet after any type of federal election to give effect to any platform, and since tax credits are a very major proportion of the whole Budget of the can the Minister then indicate whether in fact the Budget province ' will be dealing with tax credits, or will that be postponed until some time in the future as well? MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker , the Budget will deal with some aspects that would normally be inc luded in the White Paper. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary . MR. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Can the minister confirm that he's not trying to pass on whatever 3985

Thursday, May 10, 1979 good news he can before the May 22nd election, and that he's waiting until after the May 22nd fede ral election to pass on the bad news to Manitobans? .. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker , I can confirm to the member that the date of May 22nd has very little to do with the timing of the Manitoba Budget. MR. SPEAI<ER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN tiANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker , I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs.

Could the minister indicate whether he has completed his enquiry or investigation int o the sudden gasoline price increase which occurred some two months ago? MR. SPEAI<ER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): I'm not sure whether my honourable fri end is referring to a ques tion that he posed in the House with respect to gasoline price increases in the City of Winnipeg ; if that's the question , Mr.

Speaker, I thought I answered him by telling him that we were not con ducting an investigation into price increases in the City of Winnipeg because we felt that the marketplace was able to take care of price increases or price competition within the City of Winnipeg . MR.

HANlJSCHAK: In view of some of the strange things which seem to be occurring in the marketplace such as a 25 to 30 percent increase in the price of gasoline which occurred overnigh t once aga in at the beg inning of this week , will the minister reconsider his role and the role of his department insofar as allowing the marketplace to fool around with the consumers in this manner? MR. JORGENSON: Well , Mr.

Speaker , as my honourable friend may be aware , prices of gasoline has been fluctuating pretty violently in the City of Winn ipeg; he always draws to my attention those times , tho se occasions when the price goes up, but is silen t on those occasions when the prices go down , when the consumer benefits and , on balance , I think that the consumer is getting the best possi ble value for his dollar in depending upon the marketplace to determine what the price of gasoline will be. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Mr. Spea ker, my question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs .

Monda y last , during the Estimates , he indicated that some consideration was being given to increased subsidies for the Savage Island Fish Processing Plant . Given the fact that such subsidies may have an impact on the leng th of the fishing season and the number of lakes fished, I'm wondering if the minister can now indicate what progress has been made towards resolving this very imm ediate problem? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . MR. MacMASTER: I can't report that at the moment , Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill . MR.

COWAN: Yes, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Mines , Resources and Environm enta l Management. Can the minister confirm statements that have been made by the Presidentoof the Manitoba Government Employees ' Assoc iation to the effect that the Province 's Conservat ion Officers have become targets for frustrated Manitobans who disagree with government policies ? MR. SPE.411KER: The Honourable Minister of Mines , Resources and the Environment. MR. RAN!)OM: No , Mr . Speaker , I most assuredly cannot confirm that . MR. SPE-'\KER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final supplementary . MR.

COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Speaker . Can the minister then confirm that an incident involving a shotgun being discharged at three government employees in The Pas was hushed up because 3986 .. .. ..

Thursday, May 10, 1979 the government didn't want to bring, and I'm quoting from the Preside nt of the MGEA 's statement, "hushed up because the government didn't want to bring more tension to the area," and can he further indicate if any other incidents of this nature have also been hushed up by the government? MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I'm unaware of the incident that the honourable member refers to. I would certainly wish to take the question as notice and have the situation investigated because I would want to be assured that a due process of law had been applied. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St.

Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Honourable Government House Leader. Can the minister inform the House when it's the government's intention to table Order for Return No. 55? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: I'll have to find out which Order for Return that is, Mr. Speaker. MR. WALDING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Can the minister explain to the House why it has taken one year to remove one pape r from a filing cabinet , reproduce it and present it to the House? MR. JORGENSON: Well , Mr.

Speaker , perhaps the answer to that question is the same as when we were on that side of the House; we often wondered the same thing. • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. SAULCHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Finance . In view of the fact that there has been agreement reached about certain fees to be paid to private aud itors who are substituting now for the Provin cial Auditor in carrying out audits at ..1 certain Crown corporations , will the minister now inform us as to the amount the fees are that have been settled? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, on a similar question, several days ago or a couple of weeks ago, I indicated to the member that most of the agreements, or negotiations, with the various external auditors were completed and that some of them were actually working, and in due course that I presumed that an Order-in-Counc il would be processed which would confirm it all, and I would suggest to him that , in due course , that will take place . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker , would the honourable minister confirm that the fact that existing Orde rs-in-Council provide for the appointment of specific auditors to do specific audits, and provide that the amount of fees shall be settled by the Treasury Board, and that as a result thereof, there is no need for an Order-in-Council to confirm fees payable to those specific auditors? MR. CRAIK: I think that's correct, Mr. Speaker . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that no Order-in-Council is necessary to complete the appointment of the auditors and payment of fees , is the minister prepared to inform us as to the fees that have been settled for the various auditors who are now doing the audit and need no further confirmation by word of Order-in-Council or anything other than what has been ~"lr done by Treasury Board? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the matter being of some particular interest to the members of the House and particularly some members opposite on the matter of the fees , I gave the undertaking that this would be processed by Order-in-Council. The original Order-in-Council of course doesn't require it but on the other hand , since it is of some interest to the members opposite, we will file the Order-in-Council in due course that indicates these amounts . Otherwise, Mr .

Speaker , the Member would be required , if you really followed it in the logical procedure, could be required to file an Order for Return for the matter some time after the fact. But I have indicated to him 3987

Thursday, May 10, 1979 that in due course, an Order-in-Council would be processed . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , in view of the fact that as I recall it, there has been an Estimate of some $70 as being the cost of an Order-in-Council , in view of the fact that the Minister says that an Order-in-Council is not necessary in the case of fees that have already been settled and the accountants are already working , is he prepared to give us the information which he must have readily available to him or could have in one day? MR. SPEAKER: Order please .

May I point out to the honourable member that repetitious questions do not serve the best interests of the Chamber . Does the honourable member have a new question? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I appreciate your pointing out that repetit ious questions do not serve , but I'm not repeating a question, I'm now saying that the cost of an 0/C is such that it should not be necessary to spend the money and I'm asking whether the Minister is therefore now prepared to give us that information, or does he insist on an Address for Papers or an Order for Return? MR. CRAll(: Mr.

Speaker, we've been more than accommodating on this question and will continue to be so. What I indicated to the member the last time he askedquestion was that all of the assignme nts had not been completed, and as soon as they are or perhaps even sooner, we'll provide the information. If there 's a hold-up that extends beyond a reasonable time, the Order will be processed and in due course, the information will be provided ; it will be public information. I assume tha t that information would very like ly be available for part at least of the Public Accounts discussion that will go on. MR.

SPEJ~KER : The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a fourth question. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister indica te when there will be a meeting of Public Accounts that can deal with matters such as the one he just raised? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker , I would think that the first matter on the Public Accounts agenda migh t - well it will be Bill 2, The Financial Administration Act and I would hope that we can - since it's now adjourn ed here at second reading stage - that we would have that before the Public Accounts Committee as soon as possible .

I see no reason that it's not technically possible for it to sit even during the Budget Debate . I would assume that Bill No. 2 might well be the first matter of discussion at Public Accounts . If that's not technically possible, we'll be advised by the Clerk or the House Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEJ,KER: The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORC~ENSON: Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Minister responsible for Government Telephones , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a COmmittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented.

PRIVILEGE OF THE HOUSE MR. SPE.AKER: The Honourab le Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker , I have a matter of privilege, of House privilege, that I would like to raise. 1 note on page 3885 of Hansard and I'm sure that the Honourable Minister of Highways is misquoted because I don 't think that he would want to describe any member of the House in this fashion; I'm sure you wouldn 't permit it. My colleague , the Honourable Member for Wellington is described as the " Hooourable Member for Wellington. " Now I'm sure you wouldn 't want that to remain uncorrected . MR. SPEAKER: Order please .

If there has been any problem with Hansard , it's the responsibility of the Speaker and I'll look after it. 3988 ., ·-

Thursday, May 10, 1979 The Honourable Member for Wellington . MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Yes, on the same point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I wou ld note that I am not sure whether or not I have been insulted or comp limented and I would indi cate tha t it depends I suppose on the syntax and the exact and proper pro nunc iation and where you put your emphasis. If in fact it was " horrible " I suppose it was an insul t, and in the other case I'd have to take counsel; I'm not sure .

QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower, and the Honourable Member for Emerson in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to order. I'd like to refer members to page 14, Resolution 18, Item 5.(b)(1)-pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , this is a

section dealing with the Court of Appeal, Queen's Bench , County Courts and the Surrogate Court, and I want to discuss with the Minister his plans to provide these Courts with the proper physical conditions in wiich they will operate . I cite, for example, some of the problems. If one was to mainta in a file on the Attorney-General's Department, which I have done - I don 't know if I have everything but I have most clipp ings from the past couple of years since the present AG undertook the portfolio - there has been a great deal of criticism and at the very least, a lot of problems concerning his department.

But I want to specifically deal with the need for proper court space . This is not simply a question of constructing facilities, it's a question of providing the proper space so that court cases can be heard . Related to this , of course , is the question of providing proper correctional facilities, but I'll leave that for a more appropriate time. I'd like to specifically discuss with him, his plans and his government 's plans for breaking the log jam.

Because it has been pointed out, time and time again , that there is an incredible backlog of cases and that the courts in Winnipeg , in particular, which are the main I guess courts in the province , they are spread in a variety of places and it would be a lot more efficient if they were centralized . Now , our government had some plans along those lines and introduced some initiatives to break that. That's been a mounting problem . I don't know how many years it's been going on, but we certainly know that in the last years of our administration, that our various Attorneys-General raised this problem .

I can remember AI Mackling making pleas before Cabinet to get the money to build the courts and to renovate, and the Honourable Howard Pawley doing the same . Since that time, and the present AG has of course pointed a finger at us and said quite legitimately that there was a six-month backlog when he took over, and now we know there is at least a seven-month backlog, and that is a deteriorat ing situation, Mr. Chairman. I'm not arguing about a month .

I'm saying that when you are confronted wit h a problem whereby you have that kind of a weakness in the court struc ture and you 're not doing anything about it, then you can be faulted. If you have decided to act, you 've allocated funds , you've made the decisions and passed the necessary documentation, then you 're going in the right direction .

And the problem is that our government, in its last couple of years in office, took these decisions, spent a great deal of time - I can remember a number of meetings with the Chief Justice, with the Deputy Minister, who's sitting here with us today , and many other people , and listening to these arguments about how the present Law Courts was totally inadequate , it's an obsolete building . The Law Courts building , for example, has poor security .

The Judges feel almost threatened :s because they find themselves walking to their courtrooms and passing the very people that they are about to sentence , who are sometimes a fairly rough crowd with various friends of theirs present. They wanted a separation there. They wanted more courtrooms. They wanted, 1 think, some courtrooms maybe divided in half. The acoustics in that building are terrible . The lighting in the building is terrible . There 's no air conditioning in that building . Some of the just sort of seating areas and everything else is quite obsolete .

It's been there sixty years ; we've received fairly good value for our money . So we dealt with the Judges ' representat ives, the Judges coming to represent and make their plea , and we listened and we responded to them , and we agreed after a great deal of debate in 3989

Thursday, May 10, 1979 our government to, I think, approve - if my memory serves me correctly - a three and a half million dollar renovation to the Law Courts. And this is all part of a big package. It included the Woodswor th Building being constructed to pull out some of the Law Services; it included renovations; it included the construction of a new provincial Judges' building . Now thBy recommended a whole series of things to us, and I can remember seeing figures of $1 million, $3 million, $5 million, $7 million and I don't know how many other figures , to do a proper renovation of the existing Law Courts .

We opted , I think , for a $3.5 million plan . That plan was started in a first phase , I believe , with new elevators and some other minimal work to the extent of several hundred thousand dollars , and then stopped . In addition to that , there was talk of a new Court building . Now we can argue and debate where that building should be. Our government decided it should go across from the Publ ic Safety Building in the civic complex, and that's related to corrections and the separations between AG and Law Enforcement and Corrections and Rehabilitation and that general debate .

The building , I suppose , cou ld havE! been built beside the existing Law Courts , which would create a big parking problem because there's hundreds of cars parked there every day. You have to allow for parking . Or it cou ld have been built where it was planned for, and maybe there are othe r locations that are suitable , but that would be an expensive undertaking and, although we never had any particular figures on that, I think it is safe to say that you're talking probably in the order of $10 million .

In that regard we commissioned an architectural firm , I think it was No. 10, and we began to expropriate the property and I believe that under the present Administration that that series of expropriations was completed , those buildings around City Hall, some restaurant companies, some older buildings and so on, right across the street from City Hall . So I'm simply saying , I'm not talking about building these buildings to build them.

There would be some important spinoffs in terms of the construction industry which has almost one-third unemployment and is looking at 15 percent unemployment in the summer, which would be a high , a regrettable high in the last - probably since the thirties . That would be good and the fact that there would be work for architects and engineers would be good , and the manufacturers and so on. That all would be positive .

But what has happened is that this government and this Minister has in effect frozen the renovations of the Law Courts and proceeding with the construction of a new Provincial Judges Court Building. The consequences of that and the ramification of that is a greater backlog of court cases an I say as a layman, that justice is not being done in this province. When you have to wait six and seven months and probably if this continues eight and nine months before your case can be heard , this surely is an injustice.

There 's all sorts of sayings about the wheels of justice grind slowly but this is getting to be ridiculous. :: So I wonder if the Attorney-General could bring us up to date on what is going to happen, and you know , I want to caution him before he speaks in one regard because I don 't want him to tell me for starters that he has no say in this, that this is up to the Minister of Government Services. It's up to the Attorney-General and the Cabinet as a whole. It is not the Minister of Government Services who will make that dec ision .

He will act as the construction arm of the Attorney-General and of the government , but the AttorneyGeneral is the man who has the program and he's the one that has to pilot that program and fight it through Cabinet. If he is succe ssful then the Minister of Government Services will commission the architects to proceed , will have the drawings completed , and will tender the contract. So 1 wonder if the AG can bring us up to date on what is going to happen with those projects . MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman , with respect to facilities, I indicated I think in the last week or so that the !~overnment was looking at the purchase of a structure at, I bel ieve it 's 373 Broadway Avenue , which if purchased , and a decision is imminent but expected to be made within the next day or so, in that building we could provide almost immediately as compared to a three or four construction period that would have been experienced under the Member for Elmwood 's plan, we could see, certainly within three months and a maximum of six months , and I would expect hopefully by the 1st of September, the construction and refurbishing of that building to provide for 10 to 11 Provincial Judge Courtrooms , including office space for the Provincial Judge , thus removing the whole Provincial Judges ' operation from the Law Courts Building .

There is parking owned by the governmEmt behind that building , which makes it advantageous . We would see the eventual use of that building in four to six years for a central location for Juvenile and Family Court. As thf3 Member for Elmwood I am sure is aware from his previous experience as Minister of Public Works, there are four to five locations presently utilized for Juvenile and Family Courts throughout the city in accommodation that is, in some cases, not particularly appropriate . That decision having been made , and on that assumption , we would then be in a position to immediately 3990 .. ..

• Thursday, May 10, 1979 update the renovation plans to the Law Courts Building, on the basis that all of the Provincial Judges Courts would be removed from the building by, for example, September 1st, and then be in a pos ition to stage the renovation and implement the renovation plan to the Law Courts Building . We would also in the next few years then, have to plan, in my estimation, for the construction of a new Provincial Judges Building, and converting the build ing on Broadway Avenue to the central location for Juvenile and Family Court . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to make sure I understand the AG, because there's some talking going on in the Committee , and I'm not sure I heard everything correctly . I heard the minister say that he did in fact plan , he was going to plan for proceeding with the construction of a new Judges Building, 4, 5, 6 years down the road, and then I wasn't clear on what he said in relation to renovations of the existing Law Courts. I understand that you're going to consider - is it buying or renting the IBM Building? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I indicated that I expected a final decision to be made in the next day or two .

The decision I anticipate will be to purchase the building . MR. DOERN: So you intend to purchase and renovate the IBM Building, and then in the future, on the other extreme, to build a new Provincial Judges Building. In terms of renovating the Law Courts, when would that possibly commence? MR. MERCIER: As soon as the decision is made on the IBM Building - within the next day or so.

My recommendation, and I believe there is general agreement, is that the plans could then proceed immediately to update the renovation program, based on the evacuation from the Law Courts Building of all the Provincial Judges Courtrooms and office space . As the Member for Elmwood is no doubt aware from his experience with the renovation plans, there is a certain amount of staging in them that has to be done. MR. DOERN: The idea would be to move out certain personnel , and then commence the renovation, and then when it's complete to move those people back? MR.

MERCIER: If I could just clarify the question, move provincial judges back? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. MERCIER: No. MR. DOERN: They would stay out? MR. MERCIER: Yes. MR. DOERN: They would stay in the IBM Building? MR. MERCIER: Yes. MR. DOERN: So then we would have the IBM Building purchased or rented and renovated; we would then have a commencement of renovations in the existing Law Courts, and shortly thereafter, hopefully since it takes years , the approval of a new Provincial Judges Building? MR. MERCIER: Yes. MR.

DOERN: When the new building was completed, you would have a new judges' building , you would have a newly renovated Law Courts, you would continue to utilize the IBM Building or some --: other structure? MR. MERCIER: I see the IBM Building used as a Juvenile and Family Court Building. There is a need for updating that accommodation. MR. DOERN: Do you have any idea , any estimate of what it would cost to renovate that building for your purposes? Have you got a figure, a couple of hundred thousand , a couple million? MR. MERCIER: Obviously the program would have to be tendered and until that is done, I don't 3991

Thursday, May 10, 1979 have a price. MR. DOERIN: The Minister may be reluctant to give me those figures, but does he have figures, does he have estimates? MR. MERCIER: We have rough estimates , yes. MR. DOERN: In the case of the Law Courts Building , is the government planning on continuing the renovation that we commenced , only in its earliest stages, which was a $3.5 million proposal.

It was one of four or five proposed; there were certainly lesser renovations suggested , very minimal; there were certainly more elaborate ones , none of which were grand iose , simply functional renovations but we opte d for sort of an intermediate $3.5 million renovation . Is that the one that ~ the Minister intends to complete? MR. MERCIER: As I indicated, Mr. Chairman, it would probably have to be updated because you would have the situation where all of the provincial judges and all of their courtrooms would be removed from the building and we would simply have to update it under those circumstances.

I think that would be the basic plan that we would probably use in updating the program. . MR. DOERN: Has the Minister given a commitment to the provincial udges , the Chief Justice and others along the lines that he is outlining for the committee? Has he made commitments to them in terms of ... I'm sure they have been quite concerned about what's been happening and I was just wondering whether he has given them any assurances that these plans are proc eeding ? MR.

MERCIER: I can't give them that assurance until this decision is made within the next day or so but we certainly , as the Member for Elmwood experienced , had numerous meetings with judges of the various courts in discussing this problem and attempting to arrive at some solutions . MR. DOERN: The other thing I would just say to the Minister is that I deduce that his first preference is to purchase a building and renovate it. MR. MERCIER: Purchase is more preferable to me, Mr.

Chairman , because we see a long-term use of the building, after a new Provincial Judges ' Court Building is built , as a Juvenile and Family Court, which needs accommoda tions . I think purchase would appear to be the best solution . MR. DOEI=tN: I would agree on that point, Mr. Chairman , that there is a great danger, in my judgment, in leasing space and plowing in a great deal of money unless one has a very long lease, you know , 7, 10, 20 years, at a very low rate.

In that case it might be worthwhile but obviously you will have to decide what is best , but I simply want to reinforce that point, that many times one starts out on the basis of something being temporary and then God knows what happens after that, it becomes extended , extended , extended .

I think somebody cited in an editorial on this question in one of the daily papers - I don 't know if they referred to the university downtown when the U. of M. used to be downtown , pointing out some of the drawbacks there, but I always think personally of Veterans ' Housing which was supposed to have been put up for a short while in the Forties and then knocked down, what , 10 or 20 years later? And of course it is never knocked down , it just continues.

The other point I would simply make to the Attorney-General and then I'm sure some other members of the committee want to speak here , is that we are still a long way away from getting these fac ilities . It took our government several years to wrestle with the problems , to make the solutions , and to initiate the actions and the Attorney-General is no closer than we were four years ago and unless he is able to get some commitments out of his colleagues and so on, it could be a very long time indeed before we see, in particular that new central Provincial Judges' Building .

That was talked about in the days when the Honourable Sterling Lyon was Attorney-General and it was talked about ever since and it is still being talked about . Stewart Mclean announced it in 1966 and now it is 1979 and it could go on and on and on and on, so it has got to be a case of action over talk . MR. MERCIER: Just one brief comment , Mr. Chairman. I want to emphasize one point in view of the Member for Elmwood 's comments , that I fully expect the purchase to be approved within the next clay or so.

As I have indicated , I believe the renova tions can be done and completed hopefully by Septe mber 1, which would provide 10 or 11 new courtrooms there within a fairly short period of time . So I don 't think there is as much delay as perhaps the Member for Elmwood may have 3992 . ....

, Thursday, May 10, 1979 implied. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wellington . MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . With respect to the concerns raised by the Member for Elmwood regarding the renovations of the Law Courts Building , I would want to put my feelings in that regard on the record now.

Over the past few years I, I'm sure , have shared a c oncern of many people in this province relative to the preservatio n and the need fo r vigilant programs of preservation in order to conserve heritage sites , properties and premises about the province that have special significance to our peoples , and I would ind icate that it's my opinion that the Law Courts Building at Broadway and Kennedy is one of those prope rties. And it's my opinion, Mr.

Chai rman, that that building, if it is to be renovated, and I appreciate that it has some deficiencies , particularly lighting, lighting in the main floor courtroom, particularly room 127 Courtroom is absolutely disastrous and deplorable . It's amazing that more judges. . . as a matter of fact I was just thinking that recently the judges have taken , in that courtroom, to using a small little light over their podium at the Bar in order that they can read their notes and see their memoranda. But , Mr.

Chairman, I would indicate for the record that I do not feel - speaking only for myself - I do not feel that that particular building should be substantially renovated. I feel that that building should be preserved much as it is today. I have worked in that building both as a student and a pract icing lawyer for over a decade , and I think I can say that there is nothing abou t that building that is so unfunctional that it should be revised in any substantial way. I think that that building has within its walls, much of significance, much of importance .

Many important legal decisions have been brought down in that building . As of course the Attorney-General is aware, Mr. Chairman , that building was used for many years as a law school facility and many of the practising members of the Bar throughout this province and other provinces as well have passed through its doors . I would particularly like to make reference to the Law Society Library facility on the third floor which in my opinion and the opinion of many others , is something simply without comparison .

I don 't know of anything else like it in western Canada ; there may well be things in eastern Canada or other places that are comparable , but I don't know any library facility of that sort with the character and warmth of that particular facility in the western prov inces . And I wou ld like to indicate it's certainly my express wish and hope that this government will do all within its power to preserve the integrity of that particular build ing.

And I suppose I should also indicate in view of the fact that there has been discussion as between the Member for Elmwood and the Attorney-General regarding the shifting of court facilities, that I would certainly hope , notwithstanding the court facilities may be shifted , I would certainly hope that nothing is done to impair the grandeur of courtroom No. 1 in that building .

I would, for one , would take to the barricades if anyone were to - and I am sure I would be followed by lawyers thirty years my senior and much more conservatively inclined - nothing should be done to impair the grandeur and beauty of courtroom No. 1 and I hope that is any renovations are done I would hope that they would be done in conjunction with the Man itoba Bar Association, the Manitoba Trial Lawyers Association, and last but certainly not least , the Manitoba Historical Society, who has over the years expressed considerable interest in that particular site as well as many other sites dear to members of the legal profession throughout the province .

Having said that, I should also indicate, Mr. Chairman, and here I may be courting the castigation and umbrage of the former Minister of Public Works, but I'm not sure, there has been a renovation just very recently completed regarding the elevator facilities in the building , and for the record, and I don't know whethe r this was planned and scheduled prior to or after the 1977 election, but for the record. . . MR. DOERN: We planned it; they built it. MR. CORRIN: Well, you're both to blame then.

For the record I don 't know why we had to remove the main staircase of that building in order to take out what was a beautiful old elevator - one elevator albeit - and take out the staircase in order to put in two elevators so that certain members of the Bar, who want to remain fit and who enjoyed walking up the marble staircase, should be precluded from doing that. I'll never understand what the necessity of that was. It's progress of a sort but I don 't think you can measure progress that way.

I won't go into . . . the Member for Elmwood already knows my feelings relative to the Overpass from the Woodsworth Building . We've dealt with that. MR. DOERN: How do you feel about electric cars? 3993

Thursday, May 10, 1979 MR. CORRIN: I won't tell you how I feel about electric cars; you wouldn't like the answer. Pierre Burton succin put it to me. I spoke to Pierre Burton when he was in Winnipeg once at a Historical Society dinner , and we were sitting together , and he asked me - he said he'd walked about Winnipeg - and he asked what happened to the beautiful old Law Courts Building. He'd walked by on his way down Broadway and the Parliament Building. . . MR. DOER'N: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think he's out of order . MR. CHAIFIMAN: The Member for Elmwood on a point of order. MR.

DOERN: He's attac king a colleague rather than the Minister. Would you ask him to direct l! his comme -nts to this item. MR. CHAIBMAN: The Member for Elmwood does not have a point of order . The Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, I'd have to put Pierre Burton 's comments on record because they are so apropos . He suggested that the new renovations of the new Overpass from the Woodsworth to the Law Courts looked like, to him anyway, it was his impression that it looked like a spaceman raping an old dowager. And every time I pass the build ing think of Mr.

Burton's remark at that dinner, and I couldn 't help but agree with him ; I think it's so true . And I don't think we want to do anythi ng else to impair the beauty of that lovely old facility . Moving away from that , Mr. Chairman , by way of epilogue to yesterday's discussions, I want to indicate that I've had an opportunity to contact the Manitoba Trial Lawyers Association - well, representative members of their Executive - and I have been advised that they would be pleased , willing, ready , willing and able , to participate as members of the Knox Commission .

I shared my concerns about that with them and they suggested that they would be most pleased , most pleased to participate with Mr. Knox and they indicated they would do so gratuitously, that they would second a member of their Executive to sit ; we had a vice-president volunteer immediately . And they would be pleased at this juncture and I trust they may be communicating with - you directly , Mr. Minister they would be pleased to share - their knowledge with Mr. Knox on a first-hand basis.

They too share my concern that members who are practicing actively in representin g people who are involved in trial processes, should be enabled to have a represe ntative position regarding the Knox Report and if necessary, file a minority report. They are concerned about that.

I have also spoken to representatives of the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties, and they as a lay group very much interested in rights and liberties in this province and the rights of those persons in that regard who become before our courts , have indicated that they too will second gratuitously a volunteer member of the ir Executive to participate in the Knox Commission .

They feel that it 's of significant importance that there be bilateral representation on the Commission and they are willing to volunteer an executive member or members in order to afford the Attorney-General the best possible access to the community of concern and int erest in that particular area. So having said that, Mr. Chairman, I would once again indicate that we on this side feel that it's incumbent on the Minister to expand and broaden the horizons of that particular . Commission in order to encompass not only the investigative knowledge of Mr.

Knox , and I would indicate that a membe r of the Trial Lawyers Association indicated to me that he knew of another member who had been polled, whose opinion had been polled by Mr. Knox, but it was indicated that it would he preferred that the representative opinion of the group be obtained in an official manner . That, to me, Mr. Chairman, makes imminent sense .

So 1 would ask once again that the Minister give consideration to voicing his opinion in this regard a d I would point out that the members who were polled indicated that they had an ongoing acquaintance and knowledge of the court system; they didn't have to do any research.

As one of the fellows pointed out , he had been in the Manitoba Law Courts Building every day of his life for nine years; he had served in the Crown ; he had served on defence ; he had been involved in judicial processes involving jury trials ; he had been involved in every court that he could conceive of in the Province of Manitoba and I think that's true of virtually all the executive members of the Manitoba Trial Lawyers Association , Mr. Chairman . They are all senior barristers who are fully conversant and aware of what's happening in the province .

So WE! would ask again - we look towards a trilateral commission involving a lay representative , a representative of the Trial Lawyers as well as their clients , and of course a government representative , already appointed , Mr. Knox . We would ask if the Minister would indicate whether he would be willing to entertain our respectful request and respectf ul demand for such 3994

Thursday, May 10, 1979 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I have indicated previously that Mr. Knox has met with members of the Manitoba Trial Lawyers Association . He has also indicat ed that the Association would be communicating with me and when I receive that communicat ion, I'll deal with it. MR. CORRIN: I am sorry that the Ministe r takes that pos ition.

Just very short ly, for the record , I want it to be noted that it is not in keeping with the position taken by the very same Attorney -General respecting the Family Law Review where there was a revision of the terms of reference and two addit ional members representative of certain groups and interests were appointed subsequent to the init ial appointment of Mr. Houston and it is not in keeping with the tenor of the appointments to the Juvenile Justice Inquiry . I wish the members to be aware , and I'm sure the Attorney-General is cognizant , Mr.

Chairman, that at the Juvenile Justice Inquiry, there were representatives of the judiciary , of the Crown, Probation Services, and sever al other associated court services although, unfortunately again, Mr. Chairman , and I would reinforce this , there was no designation of a member of the practising bar . There was no defence counsel appointed to that Commission. Mr. Chairman, th is is of considerable concern .

That point was driven home to me by one of the vice presidents of the Trial Lawyers Association, that they felt very much put out when they read of the constituent membership of that particular Comm ission and noted that not one of their members had been appointed . I would say, Mr.

Chairman , that if you are going to appoint a member of the prosecution, and there was a member of the Crow n Prosecutor 's office on that Commiss ion , then it's absolute ly essential and almost incumbent upon the Minister to also give equal status and recogn ition to members who are in private practice who work in the area daily represen ting the interests of the ir clients. I would suggest that two wrongs will not make one right in this regard , Mr. Chairman.

I think that in fairness the Minister should review the terms of reference and he should give immediate consideration to the appointment of counsel from the Manitoba Trial Lawyers Association and a lay person from the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties. If the Minister wishes to respond , I'll stop at th is point and then we'll move on, Mr. Chairman. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , the Juvenile Justice Committee was appointed, I believe , last summer. Mr. Knox was appointed last January. I have received no communications from the Man itoba Trial Lawyers Association indicating any concern .

If I had , I would be most pleased to meet with them and discuss their concerns. MR. CORRIN: In that regard , Mr. Chairman, I would only say that those sorts of initiatives shouldn't always be placed within the scope and purview of the affected and concerned citizens. I think that it is important , unlike the situations that arose with respect to Family Law, and in this instance it is important that the Minister give sufficient concern and consideration to doing this without being preva iled and put upon by private members .

I think that it is important that the Minister take into consideration for that sort of . . . Mr. Chairman , on a point of order . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wellington on a point of order. MR. CORRIN: I am having trouble hearing myself think. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Could we have order please. MR. CORRIN: If the option is listening to you, I would prefer to listen to myself. In any event, I think :,t is proper at this point , Mr. Chairman, for the Minister to review his past errors of omission and in so doing, give consideration to upgrading the Standard of the Knox Commission.

If the Commission is to have credibility , if the Comm ission is to be accepted by all as being meaningful , then I think it has to be seen to be objective and 8i or tri-partisan, and I think the best way to afford that opportunity is to appoint these people . 3995

Thursday, May 10, 1979 Mr. Chairman, I would like to go on to discuss something that is of very pressing urgency, something that has ueen of immediate concern to other provincial Attorneys-General, somethinq which is being acted upon in many jurisdictions across Canada and the United States today and something, for some reason , that is not being brought to the fore in Manitoba, and that is the question of the rights of children and their rights in this regard to children 's advocates. Mr.

Chairman, as the Honourable Attorney-General ' I'm sure, is aware , Ontario , British Columbia and Alberta have embarked in their courts, associa ted directly with their courts , with a program of child advocacy. They have done this in different ways. MR. CHAIFIMAN: Tbe Honourab le Minister on a point of order. MR. MERCIER: On a point of order, I wonder if the member would consider addressing himself to this under perhaps the Public Trustee. I think it would be more appropriate than the present item . MR. CORRIN: Well , that's an interesting point because , Mr.

Chairman , in none of the jurisdictions to date has the office of Public Trustee been utilized to provide the service I'm referring to. Each jurisdiction is using a different format. In Onta rio they 've gone through the Official Guardian 's office , which is essentially linked directly to the Item we're under now, Salaries in the senior courts . In British Columbia I know that they've formed an office of the Family Advocate and in that jurisdiction - I might indicate that that was initially spawned by a pilo t project funded by the Federa l Government in 1975.

The Attorney-General of that prov ince has picked up the prog ram. Apparently , upon reviewing the adequacy and sufficiency of that particular program , the Attorney-General was moved to pick up the expenditures when the federal pilot grant expired , and on that basis in British Columbia there is a special court office now , and I'm making the point -this is speaking to the point of order , Mr. Chairman - because I want to indicate that we have different formats in different provinces and some provinces, it is true, deal with the question under the Off ice of the Public Trustee but , Mr.

Chairman, others do deal with it indeed under the Law Courts and the salar ies of the senior courts of their provinces, which of course is the Item we're dealing with right now . So on this basis , Mr. Chairman , it makes small difference. Frankly , I would like to deal with it right now simply because we just have enough time and it's quite convenient , I think , that we can dispatch it this afternoon and not have to deal with it this evening . We're all hoping, I think, to conclude these Estima tes possibly this evening so we might as well , prior to the Private Members ' Hour, make haste and try and do that.

Mr. Cbairman, having said that , I would indicate that I'm particularly heartened by the actions of Ontario and British Columbia and Alberta . I think that th is particular step is long overdue . The Attorney- GENERAL IN British Columbia noted when he brought into his Estites provision for this particular program, that in his opinion it had proven itself to reduce both future delinquency and criminality .

He indicated that it was his feeling and opinion that the right of a child to legal counsel when the child was involved in protection proceedings under The Child Welfare Act , commonly known as Apprehension Proceedings very often , or in custody proceedings pursuant to Family Law legislation , very often worked in such a way as to stabilize the child's situation and , in so doing , reduce the potential of the child for future delinquent involvement or criminality . So, Mr.

Chairman, on that basis , and I would hear tily endorse the present Attorney-General of British Columbia in making those opinions and com ing to that conclusion -(Interjection )- We hope . Non sequitur, Mr. Chairman . The Mem ber for Elmwood indicated that he hoped tomorrow there would be a new Attorney-General , and I indicated that I share his expression of hope . It depends whether we can believe in hamburger polls or not. Mr.

Chairman , he also noted that it recognized children as having rights , essential human rights that had been previously denied them in their involvement in the courts , and he noted that in the sorts of matters that I have referred to, being protection matters or custody matters , that they , the children , were the most ultimately involved and affected in this respect. Mr. Chairman, it's so true , and I'm sure the Attorney-General in his practice has encountered situations that had moved him to make the same passing observation.

So very often when parents quarrel , it is the children who unfortunately are the victims , the children who are caught in the warring ground like ping pong balls , or tennis balls, between the husband and the wife , the mother and the father , and very often it's the children who have to bear the scars of that acrimony for the rest of their lives . Mr. Chairman , for that reason it's , in my opinion and , I think , an opinion shared by many others now , that it's absolutel y imperative that recognition be given to children 's rights to have counsel in the courts . Now Mr .

Chairman, 1 know tha t in Manitoba there is reference in the Court of Queen 's Bench 3996 ..

,. Thursday, May 10, 1979 Act, and there is provision for the appointing of amicus curiae to act on behal f of chi ldren who are affected by court proceedings . But, Mr. Chairman , there has recently been a case, it's acronym is J. versus J., it was a domestic case so it was report ed only by the initials of the surnames of the parties .

But in J. versus J. the Manitoba Court of Appeal has clearly indicated that it will only be in cases of an exceptional natu re, which are not defined in the decisio n, in cases of an exceptio nal nature , where recour se to that particular sect ion of the Manitoba Court of Queen 's Bench rules will be taken. Mr. Justice O'Sul livan indicated on behalf of the cou rt th at he would re:Jse to appoint counsel to a child whose parents were involved in a very fractious , very , very hot ly con tested custody battle pursuant to divorce proceedings.

He ind icated , and I must say only over the strident protestations of a very well known and very highly rega rded barr ister in th is city, that he did not feel that the time had come when that

part icular

section should be util ized to bring in that sort of reform . Now, I don 't know, it's possible , as often is the case, Mr. Chairman, that in the back of the learned Judge 's mind was the possi bility that reform should come through the Legislature . A lot of Judges, cont rary to public opinion, don 't like to make law. They would much prefer to see the legis lato rs have that responsibility and they would much prefer to interpret law, and we all know that Mr.

J ustice O'Sullivan is certainly what might be construed as a small "I " liberal Judge, and certainly one who's not temperamentally or otherwise disposed to effecting reform in law. But, Mr.

Chairman , I would indicate th rough you to the Attorn ey-General that I would prefer to think, and I do believe that members of the practising Bar and the jud iciary would like to see some legislation , palpable, tangible, legislation brought forward through the Ministry of the Honourable Attorney-General that would give effect to this particular situation of neglect. 1 can tell you as a matter of interest that I followed up J. versus J. because, you know, normally when a case is heard in the Manitoba Court of Appeal it's put to bed and it's put to rest permanently .

That's the last you hear of it unless it goes to the Supreme Court of Canada with leave. But J. versus J. didn 't die . Yesterday morning I was in tee robing room awaiting a trial myself, and both of the lawyers on J. versus J. appeared and I asked them jokingly whether they were here on that case, whether they were in the rob ing room on that case awaiting a trial.

They said they most certainly were and they indicated that one of the parties had refused to adhere to the order made by the Judge and in the opinion of one of the parties the children were still dissatisfied with the order made by the Court of Queen's Bench Judge and upheld by the Manitoba Court of Appeal Judges, and they were there on a motion to review the custody provisions that had been formally declared.

Both of them indicated , they both agreed that that could have been - and th is, I think , is very telling - both sides , both of their lawyers indicated that if there were an independent legal counsel appo inted to represent the children , in all likelihood they would not have been there yesterday morning, back in court again . The legal fees, because I talked to them about that, I asked how the clients could afford it. You know , it's one thing to go to the Court of Queen 's Bench, but to go to the Court of Appeal , it's another and I saw the factum and it was incredibly well researched; it was an opus.

As a matter of fact , it is being circulated at the Bar Association now as a sort of precedent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The member has two minutes . MR. CORRIN: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I would indicate, through you, Mr. Chairman, that there is no call for that sort of situation to arise. It's not to the benefit of the children; it's not to the benefit of the people, the parents who have to pay the legal fees; it doesn't benefit the lawyers because the lawyers didn't want it. The lawyers are both very senior counsel , they don't need the business .

Neither of these gentlemen needs the business ; they can get along fine without it. As a matte r of fact , it puts them in difficult straits because they are being asked to get involved - although they didn't say this but I would express it because I know, I've been there - they are being asked to get involved in matters that are essentially of a personal nature and sometimes can 't be dealt with in a court of law. It simply belies

interpretation by a court. So they would have liked to have an independent counsel appointed . They would have preferred to have the independent counsel do his own psychiatric assessments, psychological assessments , home and family assessments through social work representatives in order that the matter might never have had to proceed through the Court of Appeal and back through the Court of Queen's Bench Chambers . Mr. Chairman, I should also indicate that I am aware and familiar that several amendments would have to be made to our legislation , but I would ask - is that my time, Mr. Chairman?

I would only ask the Attorney-General then, before we go on with this debate, if he would indicate whether there is any study being made in order to assess the possibil ity and potential viability of this concept and whether there has been any liaison with either or all of Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia 3997

Thursday, May 10, 1979 in this regard. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , we have discussed this matter with the Public Trustee himself and certainly thE! legislation is discretionary . The Queen's Bench , with the Public Trustee, has indicated he is available to act on behalf of infants where requested to do so. But at the same time, Mr. Chairman , the Manitoba Law Reform Commission have this matter before them and are reviewing legislation from other provinces and are dealing with this matter and hopefully will be making a recommenda tion in due course . MR. CORRIN: I thank the Minister for his response, Mr.

Chairman . I would indicate that the Public Trustee in making his remarks, of course, presumably was aware of the decis ion in J . vs J. and therefore the limitations, because the court will not give cognizance or recognition, as I said, unless the circumstances are exceptional and divorce , matrimonial breakdown , has now been decided by precedent not to be exceptional. I don't know of any more exceptional circumstances than an acrimoniou s, hotly-contested divorce case. Many chi ldren have fallen on those rocks and have been unfortunately, irretrievably lost in those circumst<mces .

I would also like to indicate, Mr. Chairman, that we shouldn 't only look at the office of the Public Trustee . My research ind icates that there has been a very good project working in Philadelphia in the Unit ed States that uses private lawyers , that uses a private agency using private initiative and I understand that it is working responsibly in co-operat ion with governmental officials in the city of Philadelphia, which I think is in the state of Pennsylvania , I'm not sure, but in the appropriate state in thE! United States . I am told that the program is working .

It is supported by the Defenders Association of Philadelphia . It's called CIDS, the sort of monogram or sort of acronym , I guess you would call it - the acronym for it is CIDS , which is Children in Deprived Situations , and apparently the lawyers there are working on a multidisciplinary basis which frankly excites me quite a bit. They are working with child psychiatrists, child psychologists , social workers ; they are working with court communicators who are apparently able to speak Spanish .

Appare ntly in Philadelphia there is a large Puerto Rican population and it is necessary that the office have that sort of capacity in order to communicate , much as we would with native children in the northern province and the central core areas of Winnipeg . Apparently that particular multidisciplinary approach is being received very favourably all around the United States now .

Apparently it is thought that when you have professionals working on an integrated basis in that fashion , you get a much more efficient unit and I would note that because it is being done essentially on a fee-for-service basis , it's a public defender system which works much as our Legal Aid, and the lawyers and the other profess ionals all bill the government for their services.

So the psychiatrist would bill, much as our psychiatrists do, the Manitoba Health Services Commission , and the lawyers working through the serv ice would bill just as we do , the Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba , and they of course negotiate their tariff on an annual basis down there unlike Manitoba's legal situation . We don't negotiate our tariff , Mr. Chairman , as I am sure you are aware . We haven 't yet been recognized as being the equivalent in stature of the Manitoba 's physicians , practising physicians .

We are sure that it will not be long that we will be given that regard . -(lnterjection) Well, we'll deal with that this evening in Legal Aid . Mr. Chairman , I would indicate that I personally have no preferen ce either for the private approach or the public trustee approach , or for that matter the approach , as I said, used in British Columbia which is the Office of the Family Advocate, which is directly associated with the senior courts and the family courts.

I should - just to expatiate a little bit , because we only have a few minutes and then we'll go away to Private Members Hour, in British Columbia , as I say, the province assumed the federally funded pilot projec t. They use a Family Advocate System which is attached directly to the court , which I think is very good because they 're responsible apparently to the judiciary , which in my opinion is a good idea . I like that. I think we can all agree that you can probably trust the judiciary to remain objective .

I'm not sure and I don 't say this to disparage any person holding the position of Attorney-General , so do not interpret this personally , Mr. Chairman . I'm not sure that we can always trust in all circumstances though , politicians of one stripe or another to safeguard the interests of children , and that would include myself , Mr. Chairman. I think it's better that it be put in an independent form in one fashion or another . So the British Columbia idea of putting it in the judiciary's bailiwick is in my opinion more desirable than the Ontario format of putting it into the Official Guardian 's Office .

I do like the idea expressed in the Philadelphia situation , the Children 's Advocate Agency , although it perhaps does have that flaw , but the argument there is that the private members of the bar , and the physicians and social workers participating are vigilant on behalf of their client groups and that they safeguard the public interest. And I think that some credence can be given to that argument , Mr. Chairman . So not being able to do an absolute accounting at this early juncture , Mr. Chairman, I would 3998

Thursday, May 10, 1979 indicate though that there are interesting and fairly stimulative approaches being taken to this new concept, and I would also like to indicate , because I think it's very important, Ontario has done one thing very right. Although I don't like the idea of Official Guardians, I do very much like the idea of making mandatory a four day refresher course for lawyers wanting to participate in the Ontario program . Apparently the office is through the Official Guardian, but Legal Aid is funding it.

The head of it is the Official Guardian but he delegates work through Legal Aid and they will only delegate work, Mr. Chairman, to lawyers who take a four day refresher course under the auspices of the Law Society of Ontario or Upper Canada . I think that's a hell of a good idea because unf ortu nately, Mr.

Chairman , with respect to practising members, it does no good to have people repres enting themselves to be able to represent the interests of children in the courts if they are not fully aware and cognizant of all the most recent developments in Family Law, and it makes • very good sense for the Officia l Guardian and I suppose really, the Attorney-General, Mr. McMurtry, to have made it mandatory that the four day refresher course be taken by all barristers wishing to participate in the course . I should indicate that in Ontario they are only getting involved in protection cases.

They are not taking custody cases. I am advised by my informants there that they are considering going into the area of contested custody but they regard their program at this particular point in time as being somewhat experimental and they are staying in the protection area. So they are working primarily in the area of child welfare under the terms of reference of their newly revised Child Welfare Act. I believe there are provisions directly in that Act for this particular format to be taken and I would indicate that such an amendment would be necessary in our legislation as well if we were to do the same.

I would also like to indicate in the last two minutes that in British Columbia the statistics on the last four years of performance has indicated, and this is the report of the Family Advocate there, tabled I believe through the Attorney-General's office in their Legislature, the report of the Family Advocate there has indicated that in 80 percent of all the cases his office has been involved, and this, Mr. Chairman, is significant , in 80 percent of all the cases in which he has become involved, they have gone by way of consent order. There has been no contest between lawyers.

And I think knowing as I do what happens in the courts in these matrimonial conflicts, that is a truly remarkable statistic. If you want to find a way to cut back on provincial court backlog, Mr. Chairman, that perhaps is the way. 80 percent of all the orders in over three years which have gone under his terms of reference have been settled by consent. Lawyers don't fight with him, because they recognize that he is an objective representative and he has no bones to pick with their clients, and they recognize that he scrupulously picks only objective personnel to work with.

The clinical psychologists, the social workers, the agencies he deals with, are agencies and people who are beyond reproach. They're very very selective. I'm informed that he doesn't deal with anybody who has a black mark on his or her record. He doesn't deal with anybody who is perceived as being favourable to either a husband or a wife in matrimonial disputes, and they're getting remarkable results in that jurisdiction. So I would suggest if we want to cut backlog, let's have children's advocates. It will cost us a little bit initially but in the long run I'm sure it's going to yield a saving. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please . In accordance with Rule 19(2), the hour being 4:30, I am interrupting proceedings of Committee for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 P.M. tonight. SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson): Committee come to order. 1 would direct the honourable members' attention to page 59 of the Main Estimates, Department of Labour and Manpower, Resolution No. 77: Item 1. General Administration (a)Minister's Compensation - the Honourable Minister . MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, this is one of my first opportunities to speak to you as the Minister ; responsible for the newly formed Department of Labour and Manpower. The new department consists of the whole of the former Department of Labour plus research and manpower and employment service functions which were formerly decentralized in five different government departments, these being the Department of Education; the Department of Northern Affairs; the Department of Agriculture ; the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Department of Economic Development.

In effect, the newly designated Department of Labour and Manpower reflects initiatives in government reorganization prompted by the task force on government organization and economy. The new structure of the department , I believe, will eliminate some of the duplication and will result 3999

Thursday, May 10, 1979 in services and program s that are more co-ordinated and effective . Over a number of years now the government has had or has undertaken many new responsibilities in the areas of employment services, manpower tra ining and development. This has happened in other provinces as well and they have generally responded by either creating a new Department of Labour and Manpower or by centralizing all employment service s and Manpower activities under a single government department.

In Man itoba however , as new respons ibilities were undertaken in these fields they were assigned to variou s government departm ents for purposes of administration and implementation. Consequently no effective action was taken to develop a comprehensive and co-ordinated program for Manpower policy and development. By centralizing all Manpower related activities under the new Department of Labour and Manpower, I believe we have established a firm base for developing an effective integrated and comprehensive Manpower policy .

I woul d now like to take this opportunity to outline for you the structures, functions, programs and future plans of the Department of Labour and Manpower . The new Department consists of central administration and two major divisions. These are the Labour Division and the Manpower Division. Within the Manpower Division there are four branches . These are Training and Development Branch , the Manpower Planning and Immigration Branch, the Employment News Services Branch and the R·esearch Branch . Each of these branches has specific functions and responsibilities which I'll outline in a moment.

The other major div ision , the Labour Division encompasses most of the act ivities of the former Department of Labour . It consists of seven branches . These are the Conciliation Services Branch , the Employment Standards Branc h, the Workplace Safety and Health Branch , the Mechanical and Engineering Bra nch, the Office of the Fire Commissioner , the Pension Commission , and the Manitoba Labour Board . In addition to the two major divisions the Department is also responsible for the Women 's Bureau . Under thH new structure of the Department the Women's Bureau will report directly to the Minister .

Also as I indicated administra tive services including personnel and budget and financial services are centrally located with in the stru cture to service and co-ordinate both the Labour Division and the Manpower Division. As I pointed out the Manpower Division which is headed by an executive director, consists of four branches . One of these is the Training and Development Branch which consists of the Apprenticeship Training Unit , the Selkirk Training Plant and the Employment Services Unit.

The Apprenticeship Training Unit is responsible for the training and certification of persons to the level of skilled tradespersons . Current ly 27 trades are designated for such training and certif ication. The Unit is also responsible for the exam ination and the issuing of licences to persons in the barbering and hairdressing occupations. The objectives of this unit are to develop skills and to maintain standards of compete nce in these trades .

In working towards achieving its objectives the Apprenticeship Training Unit assists in the developmen t of appropriate legislation and regulations , distributes information and lectu res to potential entrants into the Apprenticeship Train ing Program and facilitates the employment of apprentices through its contacts with employers . As well, the unit supervises the on-job training of app rentices , arranges for in-sch ool training for apprentices and in co-ope ration with emp loyers , employees and Community College instructo rs, assists in developing appropriate courses for appren tices.

In addition the Branch conducts examinations and issues certificates of qualification to appre ntices who successfully complete the ir train ing and to qualified tradespersons who meet the necessa ry requirements . It also conducts examinations and issues licences to barbers and hairdressers .

The Selkirk Training Plant which is operated in co-operation with the Parks Division of the Departmemt of Mines , Resources and Environment , endeavours to assist special needs individuals , who for such reasons as low academic background , poor work history , the various social and economic circumstance s are prevented from entering the work force or from pursu ing further training. raining and counselling are provided in conjun ction with the production of wood and metal items for Manitoba Parks . It is expected that about 100 persons will obta in tra inin g at the plant in the coming year.

In the past this particular program was administered by the Department of Agriculture. The Employment Services Unit in northern Manitoba is presently aimed primarily at enabling northernms to take advantage of employment and training opportun ities and to provide summer employment for the youth populat ion in the north . In carrying out this program the Employment Services Unit of the Branch which was transferred from the Depa rtment of Northern Affairs prov ides a Manpower Service in the north which involves counselling , training , referral and relocation.

This latter program involves relocating families from remote areas in the north to Thompson , Leaf Rapids and Flin Flon. In this way jobs are provided and families are taught to adapt to a new environment th rough counselling by staff of the Department . Part of the cost of this program is paid by the 4000 •

Thursday, May 10, 1979 mining companies providing the necessary job opportunities. Arrangements are currently under way to provide a similar Manpower Service in certain areas of the south. The Branch also works in co-operation with other agencies such as Canada Employment and Immigration Commission, the Department of Indian Affairs, the Department of Health and Social Services, as well as with native organizations. The Manpower Division also has a Manpower Planning and Immigration Branch. The main objectives of which are: (

a) to ensure compliance with the terms of the Adult Occupational Training Agreement with the Federal Government, and (

b) to maximize annual funding allocations under that Agreement to support institutional and industrial Manpower Training in the province, and (

c) to work with federal and provincial government authorities to assist Manpower needs, to assess Manpower needs and develop training plans . The Branch also works towards the efficient utilization of federal and provincial resources made available for Manpower Training and development in the province. In response to the new federal Immigration Act, the Branch provides information relating to immigration, citizenship , and demography to ensure that provincial concerns are emphasized.

This Branch is also beginning to identify the settlement needs of newcomers and in relation to this function is attempting to improve cost recoveries from the federal government for citizenship education and settlement services including language training. The principle activities of this Branch therefore are to negotiate and administer the federal/provincial agreement relating to Manpower Training and Development, and to consult and articulate with the federal government Manitoba's concern with respect to immigration, citizenship, and demography .

In doing so the Branch ensures that funds available are used in the province's best interest and ensures that federal training and immigration policies under development takes into consideration the needs and concerns of the province. The Manpower Division also has a Youth and Employment Services Branch which consists of staff which were formerly with the Department of Education and Department of Municipal Affairs .

The major concerns of this Branch are to assist secondary and post-secondary studentsfind employment so that they may continue their education and generally to alleviate the youth unemployment problem and the employment problems of special needs adults. To meet these concerns, the branch administers numerous youth and employment programs.

For example, the branch is responsible for the STEP Program which provides provincial government departments with funds to hire summer students and also operates an Employment Services Office which registers and counsels students seeking summer employment and refers students to different government departments. It also operates Hire a Student Job Centres which provide student registration and referral services in areas of the province not served by Canada Manpower. Another very important program administered by the branch is the Private Sector Youth Employment Program which was instituted in 1978.

The program is designed to create new jobs in the private sector for persons between the ages of 16 and 24 by paying a portion of the employee's wages. Last year the program was highly successful as close to 5,000 summer jobs were generated through the program. I expect the program to be at least as successful this year . The branch also administers a Work Stay Program which is aimed at assisting youths with low academic standing or who are on probation or are disadvantaged for other similar reasons.

Under the program, the branch reimburses the employer for the trainee's full salary at . a minimum wage for the first eight weeks, followed by an eight-week period where the employer receives 50 percent of the trainee's salary. This program includes counselling services to the trainees. The Work Stay Program has been , and I expect that it will continue to be successful. The New Careers Program is also administered by the Employment Services Branch. The program provides comprehensive job training and supportive educational training for unemployed and under-educated adults.

Although training has generally been limited to the government service, steps are being taken to extend the program to the private sector. The branch is also responsible for the Northlands Travel Program under which financial assistance is given to northern schools undertaking educational travel for students. Also , this branch is co-ordinating the administration and redistribution of funds committed under the Special Municipal Loans Fund to municipalities for the construction of such things as buildings, waterworks , roads, and recreation facilities .

All these programs, I believe, have been very helpful in alleviating the employment problems facing our youth population and our disadvantaged adults . I'm confident that we can continue to improve on the effectiveness of these programs and to look for new ones. The Manwer Division also has a Research Branch which consists of research personnel who were formerly with the Department of Education, the Department of Labour and the Department of Economic Development.

The main function of this branch is to provide information to support effective policy formulation and decision making in those areas for which the Department of Labour 4001

Thursday, May 10, 1979 and Manpower is responsible. On a regular basis , its functions include providing information and analyzing to the Minister and the senior officials , identifying the current and future manpower needs of Manitoba , monitoring and assessing federal policies and programs to ensure that our interests are protected and that our priorities are advanced and to evaluate the impact and effectiveness of federal and provincial manpower programs . In general , the Research Branch provides information , evaluation to assist and support all other branches within the department.

In doing so, its specific activities will vary accord ing to the needs of the other branches and of senior offici als at any given time . At present, the branch is in the process of determ ining the needs of other branches so that it can develop an effecti ve and practical program of research . During the course of the year , the Research Branch will be assessi ng various manpower requirements of industry and of needs of individuals and will be bri nging forward ideas and proposals for my consideration in respect to these heeds and opportunities .

The activities of the four branch I have just outlined comprised of comprise the Manpower Division of the new department. While the four branches are structurally separate , in practice their activities will be co-ordinated into an integrated , comprehensive program for Manpower policy and development. The other major division within the department is the Labour Division which, as I outlined earlier , consists of several differ ent branches. All these branches were formerly within the Department of Labour and their functions and programs will remain essentially unchanged in the terms of their objectives .

Two changes from the forme r Department of Labour may, however, be worth noting. First, the Apprenticeship Branch , as well as part of the Research Branch from the former Department of Labour has been absorbed with in the Manpower Division of the new department. Second, the Women 's Bureau , which was formerly reported through an Assistant Deputy Minister , will now work more or less independently and will report directly to the Minister . Its primary function will continue to be to provide information and assistance to women who are in the work force or who are entering the work force.

Responsibility for advising the government on issues which affect the working women in the province , has been assigned to the Bureau and will involve the development of a provinc ial position on the status of women, as I have previousl y stated in this House. The newest branch within the Labour Division is the Workplace Safety and Health Branch which was established in 1977 to provide a single, comprehensive and integrated system of law and administration for the safety , health and hygiene welfare of workers in the province.

Previously , responsiblility for developing and administering legislation relating to workplace safety and health was dispersed among several government departments and agencies. The more unified structure and co-ordinated approach that we now have shou ld result in a more effective Safety and Health Program in the province . The development phase on the physical integration of the division is now complete with the placement of the component sections within a central office in the Norquay Building .

We are now looking forward to sign ificant advances in workplace safety and health based on the inherent advantages of this consolidated approach . The Workplace Safety and Health Branch consists of four different units : The Administration Unit is responsible for the general implementat ion of The Workplace Safety and Health Act and the adm inis tration of the branch as a whole . We intend to increase the staff of this unit to expand our internal technology capabilities for the purpose of staff and program development.

The branch also has a Safety and Health Inspection Unit which prior to 1977 operated under the administration of the Workers Compensation Board . The main functions of the staff of this unit are to identify safety and health hazards in the wor kplace , to issue orders and recommendations believed necessary for the removal of such hazards and generally to ensure compliance with the Act and the regulations. This unit has an established program to assist in the development and organi zation of Workplace Safety and Health committees in over 300 designated workplaces in this province.

In addition, the unit prov ides detailed information on its extensive regulations to affected parties and distributes education material on Workplace Safety and Health matters . An important subcomponent of this unit is the Training and Educational

Section . This

section conducts seminars and in-plant training aimed at educating persons on safety and health in the workplace and on the requirements of our legislation . To summarize , the main acti vities of this unit are to conduct inspections of workplaces and to educate employees and employers on safety and health matters . We view the trainin g and educational aspect of our responsibilities with extreme importance and we are in the process of significantly improvin9 our capabilities in this field . Also within the Workplace Safety and Health Branch is the Industrial Hygiene Unit. The main purpose of this unit is to correct conditions in the workplace that may lead to health impairment 4002

.. • • •• Thursday, May 10, 1979 and to provide techn ical advice on preventative programs and occas ionally on Workers' compensation claims. In the course of its activities , the unit conducts surveys of environmental conditions in workplaces and provides detailed consultations in response to requests from industrial plants, educational insti tutions , and government agencies. The unit also does analysis relating to the level of contaminants in the workplace and in addition analyzes biological samples for abnormalities.

We reco gnize the importance of the work performed by this unit and have taken some steps to expand its activities . The fourth unit within the branch is the Occupational Medicine Unit. This unit administers regu lations aimed at the early detection of occupational diseases relating to exposure to workplace contaminants . Through medical examinations which include X-rays and lung function tests , occupational diseases are detected and efforts are made to minimize impairment of a worker 's health . The staff of the Occupational Medicine Unit is also involved in numerous consultations and educational sessions.

We recognize that there is a definite need to review current min imum standards on workplace exposures and we intend to work towards this goal. Workplace Safety and Health in general is one of the areas which we'll be reviewing in detail over the next year. A second branch within the Labour division is the Mechanical and Engineering Branch .

In administering and enforcing relevant legislation , the main objectives of this branch are to ensure that buildings are constructed and renovated in compliance with establ ished construction safety standards and to ensure that specific specified mechanical, electrical and fuel-fired equipment is designed , constructed, installed and maintained in a manner that will minimize the possibility of injury to persons and damage to property. The safety of the public is the main concern of this branch.

For this purpose staff of the branch inspect such things as boilers, refrigerator systems , pressure vessels, gas and oil burner equipment , electrical equipment , elevators, ski lifts and tows , buildings , mobile homes and amusement rides. Also for safety reasons it is desirable that qualified workers perform certain tasks. Therefore the branch is also involved with conducting examinations and issuing licences or certificates to qualified workers such as power engineers , certain welders, installers of gas and oil burner equipment and persons working with electrical equipment and motion picture projectionists.

Also for safety reasons the branch issues permits or certificates for such things as the operation of boilers and refrigeration or pressure vessels, the installation of gas and oil equipment, the delivery of heating fuel oil, the operation of elevators, the sale or lease of mobile homes, the construction of certain buildings and the operation of amusement rides . As well, the branch provides designs and building plans for certain buildings to ensure compliance with specified standards which are set out in the Manitoba Building Code .

This Code is based on the National Building Code of Canada with certain amendments made to account for local conditions. The National Code was developed by the National Research Council in co-operation with provincial authorities . The Manitoba amendments are made by the Building Standards Board. The inclusion in the Manitoba Building Code of a

section dealing specifically with Manitoba climatic data and requirements for foundation and footings are examples of these amendments. As well , sections were included on smoke alarms in tourist camps that were not in the national code. Increased requirements for insulation standards and standards to make buildings more accessible to handicapped persons were also incorporated in the Manitoba Building Code . The work load of the Mechanical and Engineering Branch has grown rapidly and steadily over the last several years.

Additional staff in the coming year will allow the branch to keep up-to-date in its licencing and inspection programs . The entire system of licencing, certifying and issuing of permits, will be reviewed to determine if some procedures and practices can be streamlined and to make more efficient use of our resources . A third branch within the Labour division is the office of the Fire Commissioner . One of the main objectives of this office is to minimize the possibility of death , injury and property damage through fire prevention and fire protection programs .

Some of the office's activities include inspecting public buildings to ensure compliance with fire safety regulations of the Manitoba Fire Code and that public buildings and places of public assembly provide an acceptable degree of life safety to the occupants . The branch inspects plans and installations such as spray painting facilities, flammable liquid storage facilities , bulk fertilizer plants and fixed extinguishing systems for conformance with government regulations . The branch also consults with professionals and the public in respect of code requirements.

The office of the Fire Commissioner conducts investigations to determine the cause and origin of fires, to suppress arson and to reduce the incidence of fire from reoccurring causes. It investigates all fires where fatalities occur and reports its findings to the Chief Medical Examiner. In addition, the office instructs paid and volunteer fire personnel on fire prevention and fire 4003

Thursday, May 10, 1979 evaluates fire fighting facilities, gives advice on the purchase of equipment and publicizes and promotes fire safety and preven tion . One of the Fire Commissioner 's main activities now involves operating the Manitoba Fire College which is headquarte red in Brandon but which also operates on a mobile basis by offering courses in various regions of the province . This year the Fire College will be expanding its activities signif icantly because of an increase in demand for firetraining services , particular ly by municipalities .

The College , in co-operat ion with Assinibo ine Community College and Red River Community College offers specialized training in all aspects of fire prevention, fire-fighting and fire detection and investigation . The training programs are spec ifically designed to serve volunteer fire fighters , regular paid fire fighters, fire service instructors, fire prevention officers, police off icers, volunteer representatives from northern communities and the staffs of correctional institutions , hospitals and personal care homes .

On completing a training program through the Fire College , a person may be granted a certificate as a Fire Fighter , as a Fire Service Instructor or as a Fire Prevention Officer . Generally, a Fire Service Instructor will return to his community and instruct other s in fire protection matters while Fire Prevention Officers become qualified to conduct fire inspection s in their own commu nities. This proposed increase in training activities of the Fire College will necessitate additional staff for the off ice of the Fire Commissioner. Conciliation Services is another branch within the Labour divisio n.

Conc iliation Officers are appointed under The Labour Relations Act or pursuant to The Public Schools Act to assist parties involved in collective bargaining to negotiate collective agreements . I consider the work of this branch to be very valuable and although we have experienced a number of serious work stoppages over the past year, I have no doubt that the situation would have been much worse without the assistance of our Conciliation staff .

Our Conciliation officers are available at all times to assist the parties to collective bargaining and I would encourage the use of their services not only in crisis situations but also at other times . While I was, and am very concerned with the work stoppages we experienced the last year , the seriousness of those work stoppages in terms of their effect on the economy was not as great as many people would have us believe . In actual fact our total man days lost last year amount to 'I• of 1 percent of the total man days worked .

This is perhaps not as low as I would like to see it , but still shows that our economy was not as seriously affected as some people might think. Hopefully we have all learned something from last year 's experiences , that the parties to collective bargaining can work together with government officials where necessa ry to improve our industrial relations climate. Primary responsibility for doing this , I belive, rests with the parties directly involved in negotiations . Some people might suggest that more legislation is needed to improve our collective bargaining system .

However, in the long run , I do not believe that restrictive legislation is the answer. Rather , I believe, giving the parties greater freedom of action to develop their own collective bargain ing and dispLite sett lement procedures , will lead to more acceptable results and a better labour relations climate . A system of compulsion, characterized by rig id procedures and requirements in our legislation will discourage the

part ies from using their own resourcefulness d ingenuity to develop and refine ways of resolving their differences . In the long run , therefore , if our collective bargaining system is going to be improved, restrictions on freedom of actio n should be removed where possible . Nevertheless, my concern with last year 's protracted work stoppage in the construction industry has prompted me to ask Mr. Cam Maclean , Chairman of the Manitoba Labour Management Review Committee, to set up a committee to consider ways of improving the collective bargaining system in that industry .

Such a committee has now been established with equal representation from labour and management , and I am hopeful that it can arrive at some consensus as to how the bargaining system can be made more effective. Alt

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-58a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 58a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8214358de241d7c7a3131ae78dca9b5d0845cf21

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