VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JUNE 22, 1982 NO. 26 '

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1516 MJ - I The llousc met at 3:00 Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SP~AKER (Russell): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. L. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, because of the interest in this particular matter,! want to inform the hon. House now of the 1982 big game licence quotas and open season periods. Attached to the copies of the statement which will be provided to all han. members,they will find two tables detailing the licence quotas and open season dates for each moose and caribou management area.

I might note that season dates are essentially the same as they were in 1981. I do not wish to bore the House with all the details, Mr. Speaker, but there are, certainly, a number of matters here that should be highlighted for the information and benefit of all hon. members,especially in view of the fact that a qreat deal of interest has been shown by members on the opposite side in the past looking for this information. The number of caribou licences available for 1982 will be 310 less than the number available last year. This year 1,265 licences are to be issued compared with 1,575 in 1981.

A siqnificant reduction has been made in the Avalon Peninsula licence quota - Area 65. This year 125 licences will be available compared with 225 last year. During the past winter Wildlife technicians were able to carry our a thorough census of the Avalon Peninsula caribou herd. This census showed that the current population is less than that of 1980. I think that all members of this hon. 320A

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1516 MJ - 2 MR. L. SIMMS : !louse are aware too of several caribou poaching incidents that 1·1ere detected on the Avalon Peninsula during the past 1-1inter. tt is felt there fore that poaching has contributed to the decline. The 1982 census confirmed trend data that \\·ere gathered from big game licence returns . And these data suggested a downward trend in population numbers over the past two or three years, but , of course , did not indicate the magnitude of the decline .

This year's census showed the population to be about twenty-five per cent less than the 198 0 cst .i.m11te . 'J'hc uther s i qn l r icant reduction is in the Lal'oile area - llrea 61 - where this year 300 licences will be available compared with 400 last year . The latest census in this area was conducted in 1980, but the trend data from hunters' returns suggest a decU.ninq population . To stabilize and hopefully reverse this trend, a smaller number of licences will ~e issued this year.

Similarly in the Northern Peninsula -A rea 69- the trend data sho1~ a declininq ~opu tntion and to hopefully reverse this trend the numbP.r of ltcenccs available this year will be fifty compared with 100 last year. On a more optimi stic note, the past winter's census in the Middle Ridge area - Area 64 - shows an increasing caribou populatjon 320Q

June 22, 1982 Tape 1517 PK - 1 MR. SIMMS: and the trend data also show an increase in population. In this area the licence quota there has been increased to 75 from 25 . I also note that there will be no open season on the Grey Islands - Area 71 - this year as Wildlife official ~ are contemplating the capture of caribou on this island for relocation to the Northern part of the Northern Peninsula. There will also be an open season of one week duration on Merasheen Island this year and twenty licences will be issued.

One further note with respect to caribou is that, should the Southward migration of the Buchans ''lateu.u herd commence earlier than usual, it .is possible tl1at the area known as Star Bog would be closed to hunting at that time. Normally the caribou reach this area about mid-November, but with unusual Fall weather the caribou could reach the bog before the season ends on Octo~er 30, Should this occur it might be necessary to curtail hunting activity in that area while the caribou are moving through. Moose licence quotas are down by 855 licences this year. In 1981, 10,895 licences were available.

This year 10,040 licences will be issued. The reductions result from better population information being available through censuses that were conducted during the past ~inter. During the period January to March of this year ideal censusing conditions existed throughout much of the Island and Wildlife technicians •·Jere able to carry out more comprehensive censuses this Winter than in any other recent Winter.

The statement also further outlines the most significant reductions and where they will occur and it will ~e noted that most of the reductions ~ave been sustained in the Eastern Newfoundland management areas. 3210

June 22, 1982 Tape 1517 PK - 2 MR. SIMMS: I might note also, Mr. Speaker, that the trend data for these areas suggest declining populations. The licence quota reductions should hopefully reverse these trends. It is obvious, I think, that the magnitude of poaching cannot be accurately evaluated in any given year. During the past Winter more poaching reports were given by Wildlife officers in Eastern Newfoundland than during any other year. This results from a much higher level of snowmobiling activities in Eastern Newfoundland than has been possible in recent Winters.

More people travelling the woods on snowmobiles observed poaching incidents and reported them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SIMMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! So they are to be commended. Good. MR. SIMMS: As a result of these reports, a number of violations were detected and prosecuted. Wildlife officials are of the opinion that the rate of poaching in Eastern Newfoundland is a little greater than they anticipated and therefore the actual kill of moose, both legal and illegal, has been somewhat greater than the populations can sustain, hence the downward trend in population numbers.

The general public has, as I have hdicated above, been extremely cooperative in providing useful information to wildlife off~cers and I sincerely hope the cooperation will continue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: In recent years the statement will also outline in a couple of exceptions that we have made in the Marystown-Winterland area of the Burin Peninsula where they have lost crops due to moose. And in hope of relieving this problem ~wo sub-areas have been identified for the two Burin Peninsula moose management areas. 3 2 '1 1

June 22 , 1982 Tape 1517 PK - 3 MR . SI~4S: And it goes on to outline the other activities that will take place . And in the remainder of the two management areas the regular open season will not commence until October 23. S~fE RON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear; MR . SIMMS: Pina~ly, Hr . Speaker , in response to views expressed by people hunting in the St . Anthony, Portland Creek and Harbour Deep ma nagement areas , 3/1 7

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1518 SD - 1 MR. SIMMS: the moose hunting season has been set to open on a Saturday rather than on a Monday - MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear. MR. SIMMS: - as per their request and this will be September 18th in St. Anthony and Portland Creek, and September 11th in Harbour Deep. It appears that most people hunting in these management areas now prefer a Saturday opening rather than a Monday opening. And one final point is that the division - MR. ROBF.RTS: We have SOMe more rea.uests . if the minister would like to hear those as well. MR. SIMMS: listen to them. I woulil he happy to MR.

SIMMS: One final point is that the division of the Northwest Gander-Gambo area - Area 24 - into two units having a different open season has been eliminated. This year there wil l be one season for all of this management area. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. The hon. member for Torngat I am surprised, Mr.

Speaker, that although the bon. the minister is new in his portfolio that he took nearly a month after th ~ licences went out to the individuals in the Province, that nowhe is finally letting the people know that , look, there are 310 less caribou to be hunted this year and 885 less moose. Mr.. Spc,Jkcr, onl' thin<J the minister did say,and on this side we have been saying it tor years,is that there is too much poaching goinq on in this Province ,and the reason is that the minister 3 2 1 3

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 1518 SD - 2 ~ffi . WARRE~ : or his predecesso r never had a handle on the functioning of his department . There have to be more Wildlife enforcement officers and unless his department can olay a more larger role in trvi1 tr• t o curtail the poaching that is going on in this Province,in particular on the Avalon Peninsula , then we may as well give it up At the present time , and I \.,ould vent ure to say , Mr. Speaker , thai. in the cominq yea r we will st ill f ind tha t ~ caching will be on the i nc rease .

According to one of the minister ' s t>fficers he has indicated tha ~ · in the last three or four years tha·t poaching has contin uall y increased every year . So unless the minister can convince his colleagues in Cabinet that more enforcement officers are needed , then I wou l d venture to say bv next year this time the minister \.,ill 1-)e coming out \<lith another reduction in the quota .

I •Jill give t he miP'ster t he benefit of the doubt , ne has only been in the position for a little over a month ·that he can finally see the light that hi s predecessors did not see , he can finally see the light and make sure that there are adequate enforcement officers in place , espe c ially during t he hunting sea son and also dur i ng the mating season . So, ~tr . Speaker , I welcome the news that U1er0 are some measures being taken 3?. 1 '·

June 22, 1982 Tape 1519 NM - l MR. WARREN: to have a moose and a caribou season continuing in the Province for some years to come. ~,1t nnless we can tackle the serious problem of poaching 1 then it is labour in vain. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a very special week in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The week of June 19th. to 25th., has been proclaimed by the han. the Premier as Senior citizens Week, a time whereby we acknowledge the continuing contribution of our senior citizens in all facets of society. Senior citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador continue to play a vital role in our society. Their experience, knowledge, and wisdom contribute to the lives of ongoing generations, and this is a fact which l'lust all-ra"s be duly recognized and appreciated. These people have helped mold the society which we enjoy, and their hard work and achievements are evident in every aspect of our lives.

Senior Citizens Week is a time for each of us to do something special to show our appreciation to these people, and to re-dedicate ourselves to involve in our own lives activities which contribute to the quality of life for senior citizens. I seek the participation of all members of the House in the activities during the week. I might say, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of activities going on all over the Province by local municipalities, by my own department,and I would urge hon. members to participate wherever they can. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3? '1 c;

June 22, 1982 MR . SPEAKER (Russell): MR . WARREN : Tape 1519 NM - 2 The hon . member for Torngat Mountains . Mr . Speaker, aqain I will just say that here is a minister giving a statement and he never had the courtesy that the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr . Simms) had of lettinq us see the prepared statement fir st. However, l'lr . Speaker , I have to go on record as saying that we on this side appreciate the senior citizens maybe even moreso than the government does, because, Mr .

Speakex, if we had the opportunity we would not have the senior citizen in this Province today havinq to pay for drugs. vlhy does .:he minister not introduce a free dxug programme for senior citizens? This is what the senior citizens need, Mr. Speaker, just 3?1R

June 22,1982 Tape No. 1520 ah-1 MR. WARREN : putting one week aside for senior citizens. I think there are 365 days in a year in ~Jhich we should respect cur senior citizens, not only seven days. So, Mr.Speaker, it is fine for the minister to get up and make a brief statement about senior citizens this week and about the handicapped next week,but what is his department doing about these people? I suggest that,number one, get a free drug subsidization programme in place and this is what the senior citizens have been asking the minister for for the last two or three years. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Statements?

MR.SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. Are there any other Ministerial ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. Leader of the Opposition . Mr.Speaker, I was hoping the Premier would be in his seat today but I understand he is still down causing touble down inMaine and has being branded now by the Premier of Quebec as being a professional trouble maker. It is unfortunate, Mr.Speaker, that the Premier continues his squabble down South of the border in the United States, that he did not just restrict his squabbling with Quebec and Ottawa to the boundaries of Canada, he had to go outside of Canada , down in the United States.

So in the absence of the Premier,I would like to ask the Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshall) that in view of the severe statements made over in New Brunswick on the weekend by the former Minister of Energy, the member for Mount Scio (Mr.Barry) 1 who is a highly respected member of the Tory organization in this Province, in view of·these statements that were made about the negotiators on both sides being partisan and carrying 3217

June 22,1982 Tape No. 1520 ah-2 MR . NEARY: on petty politics instead of hard negotiations on the offshore management,has the hon . gentleman withdrawn from the negotiating team on behalf of the Province? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): 'l'he hon . President of the Council . MR.MARSIU\LL: Mr.Speaker, I did not hear what the hon . member for Mount Scio (Mr .Barry) says but whatever the hon . member for Mount Scio says he a11vays says it after a good deal of consideration and it is always received by us with a great deal of weight. I would not comment on the impression that the hon. gentleman may have with respect to any aJ leg ·ed statements made by any member, Mr . Speaker, or to the

interpretation which the hon. gentleman puts on the apparent standing up for Newfoundland that the Premier is doing down in the state of t:aine. If he chooses to parrot what Mr . Levesque says and Mr . Levesque's impressions of it,sobeit for his impressions of anything that occurs in MR. NEARY: this firmat:~ent . MR .SPEAKER: of the Opposition . MR .NE.I\RY: A supplementary. 1\ supplementary. The bon .

Leader Mr.Speaker, the member for Mount Scio (Mr .Barry) , the former Minister of Energy was fired out by the Premier because the Premier was afraid that he was goi nq to resolve the matter and he would not have an issue in the electio n, the member has suggested that in the interest of getting this matter resolved ~/1R

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1521 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: that both sides in the offshore disputes stop acting like heavy politicians and change negotiators. Now, this is my understanding what the hon. gentleman said and was widely publicized over the week-end. Now in view of these statements from the previous Minister of Energy, would the hon . gentleman indicate if he intends to withdraw, to turn in his badge and stop this bickering and squabbling and this partisan politics ,and in the interest of getting this matter resolved, would the hon. gentleman consider withdrawing from the negotiations? MR.

SPEAKER (Russe ll): the hon. President of the Council MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman will consider withdrawing from the negotiations when the hon. gentleman gets serious,so I anticipate a long tenure leading the negotiations. The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, the only reference that I know with respect to the negotiations,or any matter relating to this Province and calling people on this side petty politicians, emanates from Mr. Levesque· And the hon. gentleman has indicated in his remarks today that he seems to agree with Mr.

Levesque as much today as he did in 1966 when he and his administration were negotiating with that gentleman for the purpose of giving land, and it resulted in the give away of the Upper Churchill SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! A supplementary. The hon. the Leader I know I am putting the hon. gentleman in a very difficult position, putting him on the spot because his boss is the one that should be answering these questions 1 because the hon. gentleman is the one, is the gentleman that the Member for Mt. Scio (Mr.

Barry) was critizing and suggesting that in order to save the offshore negotiations that the hon. gentleman be removed. · That is what Mr. Barry, the Member for Mount Scio, was saying. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he has discussed this matter with the Premier by long distance 321q

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 1521 JV - 2 MR . NEll.RY: phone, since the Member for Mount Scic made these statements in Ne1" Bruns 1"ick and , if so, "'ould the hon . gentleman indicate whether the Premier has suggested that Mr . Barry be re-hired as Minister of Energy for the Province and put him back in the negotiations I·Ji th Otta1.;a before all is lost ? MR. SPEAKER : MR . MA RSHALL : The bon . President of the Council . Mr. Speaker , I respond to serious questions but not otherwise. SOME HON • 1>1EMBEJRS : MR . SPEAKER : Belle Is le. MR . ROBERTS : Oh, oh .' The hon. the Member for the Strait of Thank you,Mr .

Speaker. I have two or three questions ,S ir , for the Minister of Health (Mr . House). They grm ·l out of the government 's decision, as announced in the Budget Speech,dealing wit h dental services to children . The Minister is familiar 1vi th it. MR . YOUNG: MR. ROBERTS: - -. - MR . NEARY : (Inaudible) at four o'clock . Are we all ready n0 1-1? Is the r.:uppet Show over? 3 ~ /n

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1522 MJ - l MR. E ROBERTS: Now, I would ask the Minister, first of all 1if he could tel.l the Ilouse, Mr. Speaker, on w~1ose professional advice this decision W? taken. And I as~ C. 1at, since the budget, as he will recall, says -Lt was taken on professional advice, I ask because the Dental Association appeared to have made it clear speaking through their spokesman, Dr. Gushue, that it was not on their advice, in fact they are completely opposed to it. On whose advice was it taken? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, we discussed this -·-------- particular topic in the estimates, it was 6ne of the topics that took a fair amount of discussion, and we talked about this kind of thing over a couple of years. As a matter of fact, it was not only a decision that was taken this year, it is something we had been looking at over a period of year~. For the benefit of the people,! have been sick with a bout of 'flu so I have to wet my throat. So,as I said ,we have a professional dental division in the Department of Ilealth and 1of course, we have a dentist heading that up and he is our main advisor in that particular thing.

And his advice, of course, is t 11at while two examinations, flooride treatments and complete prophylaxis may be desirable~it is not completely essential, and,of course, the patterns followed by most dentists in the Province will bear that out. So it was on the advice of our own dental division and,of course, the literature that he has been able to gather. MR. ROBERTS: A su~~lementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the menilicr for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBER'L'S: 'l'hank you, Sir. 3?.?1

June 22 , 1982 •rape No . 1522 M,J - 2 MR. E. ROBER'L'S : _______ , __ I gather then , 1·eading bet1o~een the 1 incs, if I uncl<•rst.Jncl the minister's somewh.1L troubled syntax, i.t 1-Jil:· ; on the <Jdvi.c~ of the l'i 1'<!C tor or Dental Services that this \vas taken . f'irst of all, two or three in a little bundle for the minister to try deal with , did the director advise this or did he respond to a rer·uest for advice made of him by the minister or by the deputy? In other words who initiated this particular cost-saving measure?

Secondly , was there any consultation with anybody outside the Dental Division , either in this Province or outside? Thirdly, were any studies prepared to sh01-1 what affect this c-ould have? And r ask because - and perhaps the minister could comment on this as well, Mr . Speaker - the rumoured saving of $300,000 or $400,00 , 1-1hich is '"hat I understand to be the figure we are looking at , the minist~r will aqrec will be spent many times over in the years to come 3?? ?

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1523 MR. ROBERTS: by both the government and by private individuals in increased dental bills. So I am anxious to try to get to the bottom of exactly why this measure was done because it seems to be one of the most short-sighted that we could possiblv ask for. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, obviously when you are preparins your budget you go to your own expertisP. and get all the information you can.

We looked at a number of rrograrnme~ and one of the mandates, I think, we have as ministers or as we have as a department is to try to be as frugal as possible and get a good return for t~e dollar. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. HOUSE: We looked at the pattern and we had about 90,000, I think it was 90,000, pupils per year who are given a first treatment.

Then, of course, a lot of them are requested to come back a second time and perhaps we GO not get many more than 20,000, I think it is 20,000 who return for the second visit and only about ~l ~er cm1t - i am sorry 20,000 of these come back for second visits. MR. ROBERTS: dentists? MR. HOUSE: Is that because there are no No, that is because certain dentists believe certain patterns, they believe that one is sufficient. And that is exactly what is happeninq.

SD - l And what I am finding is that in the rural areas they are only inviting them, most or a lot of dentists are only invitino them hnck twice because some of them say it is not necessary, and are invitjng them back once. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HOUSE: MR. YOUNG : answering the question. (Innudible) you said once. Yes. Do not be interrupting now while he is 32?.1

.,.. June 22 , 1982 '!'ape No. 1523 so- 2 MR . HOUSE: If everybody ~o~as getting a double fluoride,you 1o~ould have 90 , 000 getting the first one and 90,000 the second one . All you are getting in the second one is about 20,000 because a l ot of dentists do not belie ve that is necessary for the second one. Looking at the cost 1 it is about $35 for each visit . We do not think it is cost efficient . The other thing we looked at, of course, \oTaS the patterns across Canada . There are only b-10 other provinces havinq fluoride treatments . 3? 21,

June 22, 1982 Tape 1524 NM -1 MR. HOUSE: Every other province, the other eight provinces have one fluoride treatrrent, the same as we are reconrrending now, and we think that is sufficient, we think that is very good service. It may not be a Cadillac,but we think it is a very good service. We are not saying that a second examination is not necessary, perhaps it may be, but we think that the clients should pay for that one. MR. YOUNG: It is better than none at all,like when he was minister. MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The bon. member for the Strait of Mr.

Speaker, we cannot debate here so I will not, but c understood the minister to say that he is saving approximately $700,000, 20,000 visits at $35. ~visit. Do I understand him correctly? The mathematics is okay, if the numbers are okay. MR. HOUSE: I am saying - MR. ROBERTS: I do not know what the saving is but Well, the minister says he does not know what the saving is, ae tells us there are 20,000 visits that will no longer be paid for and he gives a figure of $35 per visit - MR. TULK: $700,000. MR. ROBERTS: -which is $700,000. My school princinal colleague confirms that. MR. HOUSE: The mathematics are good. MR.

ROBERTS: The minister confirms it too. Now, Mr. Speaker, could he then put that in context with the com­ promise which the Dental Association have said publicly they offered whereby they indicate they are prepared to make certain modifications and changes which come down to less, I under- 3~?r;

June 22, 1982 Tape 1524 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: stand again from what Dr. Gushue has said publicly.that they have come down to between $150,000 and $200,000 a year, and could he relate those two figures? He says a saving of $700,000 and he has ~pparently rejected the Dental Association's offer which would bring it down to $200,000, Sut would he confirm, just so we would have it on the record, that his saving of $700,000 is cost sufficient? I rnean,how many kids do we need to make up for that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, a lot of pupils will be recommended for second treatments. It will not be a blanket. A lot of them will be recommended anyway and we have been doing this. There have been some pupils over the last number of years who have been corning back for third visits because of the particular status of their dertal health. With regard to the dentists, we met with the dentists,and you are talking about - this was news to me and as a matter of fact I do not think, I am not so sure about the spokesman or who is the spokesman for the dentists, '-o tell you the truth.

Wre met with the committee and they made an offer to us, the offer that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) just mentioned, and we got back to them with a counter-offer and of course we have not heard back from them since except through the rnediJa this morning. so we are still awaiting word back from them and we told them we would be willing to sit down with them. So we were a bit surprised to hear this news release this morning. We were waiting for them to come back with a counter-offer. Because what we had told them is we have a certain saving within the budget and 322R

June 22, 1982 Tape 1525 PK - 1 MR. HOUSE: we 1.,ould be certainly ~.oTillinr- to discuss some variations,which they have come back with and we have gone back with a counter-nroposal. We are awaiting for a further meeting with them. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. •MR . SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. VJell we are no~>r making some progress because from what the minister is saying what appears to ;·,ave been a stalemate is no longer a staleTGate ; he and his colleagues are open to further meetings.

Could he tell the House then the magnitude of the saving which hP. has indicated to the dentists must be ac~ieved? Because again what I understand him to say, Mr. Speaker, is that so much is to be carved off the childrens' dental health bill,which was about $7 million last year, in round numbers. Can he tell us how much he has indicated to the Dental Association is to be carved off as part of this negotiating process? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, we have a certain budgetary figure,and I do not have the figure right here with me, it was discussed in the estimates.

They came in with a proposal to say well, look,let us have the second examination- I thir.k it is the second examination was the thing that they were high on, not the second fluoride treatments, the second examinations. We told the'tl to go back and meet with their committee and make an offer, and they came back again and they did not have what we considered an adequate one,so we sot back to them with a counter-offer and we have asked them to respond to that and they have not responded as yet. MR. ROBERTS: MR. 5"'EAKER: of Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait 3227

June 9, 1982 Tape 1525 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: The hon. minister jo; switchinq his ground as he goes, and I realize he is on unshakv g~ound - I am sorry, he is on shaky ground, not unshaky, it is very shaky ground. MR. YOUNG: (InaudihJP). MR. ROBERTS: A bleat out of the gentleman for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young)· Now if he is a bleated- HR. fJ,"..Tt~EN: He is the cheer leader. MR. ROBERTS: - I shall carry on, Sir. The hon. Cheer Leader from Harbour Grace. MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me come back to something - let me disregard the member for Harbour Grace and concentrate on something important, Sir. Now let me come back to this. The minister earlier gave us the figure of $35 a visit, and then he says that is for the second examination and for the fluoride treatments. Can he tell us,from his capacious memory and his undoubted knowledge of all that is going on, the scale set down in the dealin<JS between his ministr::; and the NDA with respect to the tariff items to be changed for simply a second visit? And I should say to him that his entire saving of course depends on that. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. YOUNG: Can you ~et a mouthwash for the hon. member so he can clean out his mouth once in a while? MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I want to recapitulate . We do any number of extractions uhat are necessary, any number of fillings that are necessary ,and these have a $2 co-pay. And wclat we had before was b•IO full-fledqed examinations of fluoride, prophylaxis, I su~~ose, prophylaxis is the total thing. But that is broken down into 3?~A

June 22,1982 Tape No. 1526 ah-1 MR.HOUSE: three items. There is the cleaning,$12.00, the fluoride,$12.00 and $11.00 for the exarnination,which makes up $35.00 for the full visit. That is the breakdown for these two extra visits. We do not think that the second one is totally necessary by the pattern that has evolved,by virtue of the fact that ~nly twenty per cent are corning back,and this seems to be at the behest of the various dentists; some dentists do not believe this necessary or they would have them back.

And th( o other one, looking at the trend across the Dominion of Canada or the Nation, whatever we may call it,where all other provinces, all but two,have just one complete visit' so the breakdown of the visit is the $35.00 as I have just mentioned. And ~s I said, we have met with them, they made an offer and we want back with a counter-offer and we are awaiting their call for another meeting. MR.NEARY: Mr.Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (RUSSf.LL): A final supplementary. The hon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBER'i,S : Or another new question, Sir.

None of my colleagues seem to be rising, a little bit of organization on this side. Now the fog of the minister's syntax I will have a look at in Hansard and try to hack my way through it. MR. YOUNG: You will n<=>r~rl it line for line, will you? MR. TULK: Listen to the old fogey over t~ere. MR. ROBERTS: When hon. gentlemen are rean•r, c' o.)lr, I will proceed, but I do not want to interrupt the minister, the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), so seldom we hear anything useful from him that I am willin~ always to list<=>n in that hope. 32(.q

June 22,1982 Tape No . 1526 ab -2 MR . ROBEn·rs : Now let me come back al"}ain to the minister . Could the - MR . YOUNG : useless (inaudible). MR . ROBERTS : Mr . Speaker , the hon . gentleman may not know the rules,but he ought to know some of the rules of common courtesy - t>1R . TULI< : t>tR . ROBERTS : Riqht on! - and if he will not abide by the rules of the House,could he at least observe a little common courtesy and not show us what a rude boor he really can be . N0\·1 let me come back,il I might,to the minister . MR .YOUNG : (Inaudible) MR .SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Order, please !

MR .ROBERTS : would Your Hon our admo nish th e hon . gentleman from llarbour Grace (Mr .Young) , Sir . lie is being boorish and insulting as well as annoying . MR .SPEAKER : Order , please ! I ask that the hon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr .Roberts) be heard in silence . MR . YOUNG : ('Inaudible) MR .ROBERTS: Is Your llonour going to admonish the hon . gent) eman? lie interrupted Yo ur Honour just then . I mean there is no end to that man 's insolence or ignorance. Now let me come back to the minister because I am on a very serious subject and the minister is responding very helpfully .

Could he tell the House, Mr .Speaker , what percentage , what proportion of the school chilorcn - I am sorry , the children under their thirteenth birthday - MR . HOUSE: Up to thweve. 3 ~ '11" 1

June 22, 1982, Tape 1527, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS : -twelve and down, up to the thirteenth birthday, what percentage of the children in Newfoundland have access to a dentist? Or another way to put it, what percentage of them see a dentist in any given year? He mentioned 90,000 visits a year, that is not too far off the number there would be under, but could he tell us what proportion of the children in Newfoundland have access to a dentist? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I have been trying to get the exact answer to that. It is a very high percentage.

Most if not all pupils have access at some particular time of the year. At certain times we have - for instance, on the South coast, down in the Burgeo area, we were without a dentist for a while and then it was serviced by somebody from Central Newfoundland. So generally speaking we are serving pretty well the whole of the Province. I do not have a percentage that is not getting any service at all, but I will certainly try and get that for the hon. member.

One other thing we have to bear in mind is wherever there is a percentage of pupils not showing up,it may not mean that these pupils do not have access, it may mean that the pupils do not avail of the access. Because in a lot of cases you cannot get some pupils to take advantage of it. So generally speaking it is pretty well available all across the Province. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: Just one more brief question- and I would expect the minister would not have this to hand but perhaps he could get it when he gets this other information for us _could he tell us, the 90,000 figure 3 2 3 .,

June 22 , 1982, Tape 1527, Page 2 -- apb MR . ROBERTS : of which he spoke, is that the number of examinati ons Ln a year or is it the number of treatments including examLnations ')iven? And I \vould say to him that at thirty-five dollars each there are not 90,000 examinations , because a brief glance at the budget will show that the total amount expended on examinations , Sir , in subheading 1509-04, is only - well , last year it was $2 .645 million and at thirty ­ five dollars each that is about 70 ,00 0 - between 70 ,000 and 75 ,000 overall .

So could he tell us whether the 90 ,000 includes everything or not , and at thn same tLme perhaps he could find out for us , Mr. Speaker, just how many visits the people of Newfoundland pay their de ntists for through the child ren 's dental pl an in th e cour se of b1elve month s, on all headings . MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Health . MR. HOU SE : ~1.r. Speaker, that 90 ,000 was the two visits included , that Ls 70 ,000 and 20,0JO r~ugh ly . MR. ROBERTS : So there is one- th ird of them come back ,not 20 per cent .

MR. nousE : No , we arc saying there is about 90 ,0 00 and one -third of them do not come for any - 30 ,000 do not receive any . MR . ROBERTS : How do yo u get 90 ,000 at thirty -five dollars each and only come out to $2 .6 million? I mean , I kn ow arithmetic defaults me, bUt that doe s not work . 3/3?

June 22, 1982 MR. HOUSE: MR. ROBERTS : have a go at it. MR. HOUSE: Tape No. 1528 SD - 1 I will try to figure it out. 1\lri<Jht. Get the information and we will The number is about 90,000. We said there are about 90,000 pupils between the ages of birth -whatever age we take them - until they reach the end of their twelfth birthday. There was about 90,000 examinations last year; 70,000 of these were first examinations - MR. YOUNG: MR. HOUSE: MR. ROBERTS: He was not to the Estimates, - and the other 20,000 are - You could not have had 90,000 at $35 each, you did not spend that much money. MR. YOUNG: MR.

ROBERTS: Why did you not go to the Estimates meeting? Oh shut up, 'Haig' . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Why did you not go to Estimates MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I will check the arithmetic, the proper arithmetic, but these are the figures I have. MR. YOUNG: Why did you not ~o the committees instead of being down in your law office. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: MR. ROBERTS: question. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. LUSll: MR. 'rULK: MH. MOHGAN : Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker.

Careful 'Morgan' or we will ask you a Order, please! Back from your holiday, are you? Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions - Back from Calgary? Back to your law practice, un:! yon? MR. ROBERTS: You had a good weekend on the people. At least I work for my living 'Morgan' . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 3 21 'i

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1528 so - 2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and I want to get some information re:the $47 million which has been allocated for capital expenditures on the cost of building and equipping schools. And the question I want to ask the minister in this regard is what amount of this $47 million will be spent on building schools in this fiscal year?

Or to put it another way, what discretionary power do the school boards of the Province have in terms of building or equipping new schools,because there is a proportion of this that is already committed for servicing previous debts? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, $47 million is the total amount allocated in the estimates for school construction in the coming fiscal year.

That amount breaks down into three categories - $22.8 million to make possible new construction, that is the erection of new buildings or the extension to present structures; $23.2 million which will be spent on servicing debt incurred for previous construction; and $1 million which is set aside for the deductible provision of the fire insurance policy for all schools in the Province. Those three figures add up to the total of $47 million. I explained this in more detail in response to the hon. member's repeated questions at the Sociill Services T\stimotcs Committee lw<1rinrss · 3 2 31~

June 22, 1982 MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Tape 1529 NM - 1 Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, there is another point that did not come out in these estimates and I am hoping to arrive at that in this line of questioning now. So what the minister is saying basically is that 50 per cent of this $47 million is already committed to pay for existing debts, and we have SO per cent to put into new school construction in this fiscal year.

Can the minister indicate what proportion of that $22.8 million will be allocated for the reorganization of the new high school programme,because last year the minister indicated that there would be $20 million put aside for the reorganization of the new high school programme spread over a three year period,so I am wondering what proportion of this $22.8 million will be spent on the reorganization of the new high school programme? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, of the $22.8 million, which is earmarked for new school construction this fiscal year, $12 million is dedicated for high school needs. Now that amount was announced by government over a year ago as the second installment of three phases of a high school construction programme totalling $20.3 million. The first installment of $5 million was provided in the last fiscal year, the second, or $12 million, in the present fiscal year, and then the balance will be provided next year. 323'i

June 22 , 1982 Tape 1529 NM - 2 MS . VERGP. : The three year programme announced last year has given the DECs and school boards considerable lead time in planninq,and that is a trend start ed by this a~~inistration to give to the aqencies responsible for capital construction sufficient time with which to plan rneetinry the oustandinq needs in school construction . These amounts which are provided by government for school construction are paid to the Denominational Education Committees who in turn look after in most cases 90 per cent of the cost of new projects .

Under present leqislation school boards have to pay at least 10 per cent of the cost of each project . MR. LUSII: MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : for Terra Nova . A supplementary , Mr . Speaker . A supplementary, the hon . member MR . LUSH : Mr . Speaker , I wonder if the minister can inform hon . members pr~cisely as to what amount of this money , this $22 .8 million , 3?1M

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1530 MJ - l MR. T. LUSH: will be spent on the construction of new school buildings in this fiscal year? Because we have now broken that fiqure up into three or four parte. We have $J~ million for the re-organized highschool programme. We have $9 millions for other schools in this year,making $22 million, so what amount from that $22 million will be spent on building new schools in this fiscal year? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, it is estimated that all of the $22.8 million, 100 per cent oE that amount will be spent on new school construction this year and that wiJl be added to at least a ten per cent contribution for each project from the school board benefiting. MR. LUSH: A s u9plementary, Mr. 'Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han . the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Just to make sun~ that I understand the minister in a clear manner, is the minister saying that none of this money is to be -~ >n:ad over a two year period, all of this $22.8 million is ~o be spent in this fiscal year 1982? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, all of tl1at a'!lo-:.;nt is being made available by the provincial government to the Denominational EducationCommittees 1ho,under our constitution and law, are responsi~-.le sc:1ool construction. T'1e Denominational Education Committees, in consultation with their respective school boards,allocate or distribute these funds, they approve school construction projects.

All of the $22.8 million for new constructjon is being macle avililable to the IJI·:C's ,ilnd a!> far as l know it will all be used this year for needed additional construction projects. 3 2 .i 7

June 9, 1982 •rape No . 1530 MJ - 2 ~ffi . ~~~~KER (Rus~~~!~- Order, please! 'l'hl' Lime for Quest ion PcrlncJ has expired . Before we proceed,I would like to welcome to the galleries today, former ~~ from the Province of New Brunswick and the former Jl1inistcr of Natural Resources in the person of Mr . 13ud Burden , I do indeed \o;elcome you to the .. gallery today . SOM~-~9~:-~EMBE~ llear, hear! 000 MR . S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, before we proceed ~ith Orders of the Day- ~ MR . SPFJ\KER : The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . MR .

NEARY : -I wonder i E my h.on . opponent opposite woulcl allow me to suqqest thut it miqht be fitting .tnu .tppropr i<~Lc o~nd • ope,. [or til is llouse to sen <.I o I C a letter or a telex of congriltulations to llrince Charles and Lady Diana on the birth of a new Prince . Mr . Soeaker , as the members know we are proud to be 13ritish subjects in this Province, 1~e are Cilnada' c; newest province but Bri tian ' s oldest colony , Jl1r . Speaker, , 3~ :1R

June 22, 1982, Tape 1531 , Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY : and I believe as loyal subjects of Her majesty that it ~uuld be proper for us to get off a communications to J~ndon , Mr. S?ea~er , a letter of congratulations. And not only that, Mr . Speaker , but an invitation for Charles and Lady Diana to visit Nev1foundland next year when we are observing , I believe it is the 4·)!> tl1 . anniver sar y of the landing of Sir Humphrey Gilbert in this Province, and if they accepted the invitation maybe they would bring the bouncing baby boy with them . But we would be proud to have them in this Province , t-1r . Speaker .

MR . SIMMS : him Steve, by the way . MR. NEARY : They arc going to call No, they are not going to call him Steve . Well, I have to say this, Mr. Speaker, that there were some very important and prominent people born on the twenty-first of June, some very, very important people born on the twenty -first of June . And when I was 1 istening to the astrologer from Livc!rpool predictiny the future for Lhis now Prine<.', and identifying the Prince with all the people who were born on the twenty -first of June, Mr . Speaker, I was rather proud of that because yesterday har;pened to be Joty birthday ,too.

But in the meantime, I believe seriously - MR . SI~1S : You coulc be his god-cousin . MR . NEARY: Well, I am . I am proud to be able to make this motion, Mr . Speaker, and I do hope that the gentlemen on the other side \vill concur and make it unanimous . MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER(Russell) : The hon . the Ministur of Justice . 3/:lQ

___ !..;, June 22, 1982 , Tape 1531, Page 2 -- apb Mn. 5>TTENUEIMf.R : Mr. Speaker, jn the temporary absence of the President of the council (Mr . Marshall), certainly members on this side are very pleased to conc ur and to join with the hon . the Leader of the Opposition(Mr . Neary) in the request that Your Honour, I suppose,communicate through the Lientenant-Governor in asking him to transmit to the Prince and Princess the best wishes of the House of Assemb ly and the people of Ne wfoundland on this propitious birth . SOME HON . MEMBERS : !lear, hear ! MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : All those in favour 'aye' . HON .

HEMBERS : Aye . MR . SPEAKER: Against 'nay' . 'Phe motion is carried . ORDERS OF TilE DAY MR . Ml\HSIIALL : Government Services Con~ittee . MR. SPEAKEH : SOME HON . ~!EMBERS : MR. SPEAKER : 'rhe Concurrence Motion, Concurrence Motion . Hear, hear ! It has been my understanding that in previous years there has been an agreeme nt whereby members can speak for ten minutes as opposed to Standing Order 49, for thirty minutes. MR . NEARY: Back and forth . MR . SPEAKER : Back and forth . MR. MARSHALL : 1 think , Mr. Speaker , the agreement was that the rules of Committee would apply, ten and ten . t-1R .

SPEAKER : for that? SOME BON. MEl-1BERS: MR. SPEAKER : Bonavista North . ~: nn Is there unanimous agreement Agreed . Agreed . The hon . the member for

June 22, 1982, Tape 1531, Page 3 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I wise to begin the Concurrence Debates . The Heads that were considered in che Government Services Committ ee 3? h '!

June 22, 1982 Tape 1532 NM - 1 MR. CROSS: were Finance, Public Works, Transportation, Labour and Manpower and Municipal Affairs. 1'hc <ldlil tcs on l.ilbOtlr .lntl M<Jnpowcr, Public Works and Transportati .on were conr.lnrlcd in three hours. It took two and a half hours for each of Municipal Affairs and Finance. All heads were adequately covered as no Head was passed until questions had been answered to the Committee members satisfaction,or so it seemed. The total amount of money that was passed in these heads was $257,326,000.

The dollars spent in capital works projects, especially in 'l'ransportation for road construction and Municipal Affairs for water and sewer projects,will be a big help to the construction industry and create much needed employment in a time when jobs are not easy to come by. I was personally pleased to see money made available for the construction of causeways,as money has been allocated for the construction of a causeway to link the historic community of Greenspond, in the district of Bonavista North, to the Mainland.

The people of that community after years of dreaminq are about to have their dreams become areality. '1R. \•TJ\RR}~N: Federal money. MR. CROSS: Federal and provicial money, Mr. Speaker, and again I am pleased that some of the dollars for capital works in Municipal Affairs will be spent again this year in the district of Bonavista North, namely in the communities of Greenspond, Badger's Quay, Trinity and Gambo. Mr. Speaker, as I have already ~tated there was ample time for questions to be answered in the meetings of the Government Services Committee.

The spirit and rapport e:xhibi ted at these meetinrrs were exceptional. I might aud that they were far better than the~ spirit and qood will shown in this hon. House at times. ;\ ? j~ )

June 22, 1982 'l'ape 1532 NM - 2 MR. CROSS: I have to commend the han. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) for his reqular attendance at the Committee meetings. He was the only one in Opposition ranks who carried the ball all the way - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3?4?.

~ June 22, 1982 Tape No.l533 so - l MR. 'l'OBIN: The next leader, the next leader . MR. CROSS: - as in most cases too, he was the only memb~r from the Opposition present at committee meetings . I believe there are three hours for this Concurrence motion on government committess, so I will not waste too much of the time. 1 will leave it to the Opposition so that they can ask other questions. But in closing 1 I would like to thank all members for the worthwhi l ~ contributions that they made, say it was a pleasure and very enlightening to have been Chairman of the Government Services Committee. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. LUSH: Thank you. Hear, hear. The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I want to raise some questions today that I did not get the time to raise during the debating of the estimates in committee. There are several burning questions that I want to ask and several points I want to raise. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I think the Chairman, the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross), in speaking said that the estimates were passed to the satisfaction of all members .

I want to say that some of the estimates were not to my satisfaction but there was not much I could do about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: !Jh, oh! MR. LUSH: There \"as not much I could do about it sitting in these committees all alone, Mr. Speaker, a voice crying in the wilderness. But, Mr. Speaker, I noticed with interest t0e member talking about some of the monies that were allocated for his district,and I certainly take a great degree of pleasure in hearing that there will be money spent for causew·ay construction in Greenspond and other monies that he alluded to. But, Mr.

Speaker, one of the points that I raised in the committee was the fact that particularly the Minister of Transportation (Mr. 324~

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 1533 MR . LUSH : Da \·le) <~nd the Minister of Municipal Affair s (Mrs . Ne whook) came to the committee with large amounts of capital expenditure~ and hon . member s had no idea where these monies were being spent. l'tR . NBA RY: That is right . :·IR .

LUSI:I : ~nd road construction and water and sewer prcjects and road agreements \.,j th respect to the cost sharing proqrummc with municipalities , time and time aqaln I asked for a list of all three so - 2 areas that is where money was being spent for road construction in the Province , scconuary roads in particular , and se condly , where money was going with respect to water and se\.,er in this Province; and thirdly , a list of the municipalities which would receive the grant under the cost s'lnri ng proqramme for roads . 1\nd to this point in time T 3/4 'l

June 22, 1982 Tape 1534 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: have not seen one list, I have not seen one list. MR. NEl\RY: You will not see nne either. MR. LUSH: I read in the papers from time to time about various government members announcing the awarding of various road projects in their districts,and various water and sewer projects in their districts 1 and various municipalities receiving the cost sharing portion of the road programmes for municipalities. I have not yet heard of any minister or any backbencher announcing any expenditures for Terra Nova. I have been waiting for that, but I have not heard and to date - MR.

NEARY: Do not hold your breath. MR. LUSH: - neither minister has done me the courtesy to send me a list so T can see - MR. TOBIN: It is hidden away. MR. LUSH: - where the monies are going so I can see whether or not the taxpayers , whether or not the residents, whether or not the hard working people of Terra Nova are going to get the equal treatment that the Premier talks about so much, and whether or not they are goin<r to be trcil tl'd us equul New roundlandcrs within this Province. I have been waiting for that, Mr.

Speaker, I have been waiting and I hope that we are going to see these lists in all three cases; the list for the secondary roads in the Province, the list for the roads within municinalitie!' under the cost sharing programme, and the water and sewer list. I hope that we are going to see these lists today, or in any matter before the estimates are completed. So that is the least, Mr. Speaker, that both ministers concerned can do to show their faith, to show their respect for the people of this Province, and to show their respect for this hon. House is to supply us with these lists.

And maybe if Terra Nova is included that maybe the two ministers concerned could give me a little bit 3?411

June 22, 1982 Tape 1534 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: oE notice so that I will not die of heart failure or anything, Mr. Speaker. Maybe they can give me a little bit of notice. In any event they should provide the House with that information today. It is ridiculous how we passed these large sums 3247

'1 June 22,1982 Tape No. 1535 ah-l MR.LUSH: of monies for capital expenditures without knowing where these monies are going. And I do not know, Mr.Speaker, whether we can hanq up the passing of these monies until we know where the money is going or whether we can hang up the House ind efinitely until a particular member gets monies for his district, I do not know if we can do those things,but I am almost game to try it because it is getting so desperate now, Mr. Speaker, in this respect, the pork­ barreling that goes on in both those departments, I think is a matter that can be brought up with the United Nations.

It is a matter of human riqhts and the Premier talked so much about human rights and - MR.TULK: ~nd equality, equality. MR. LUSH: - equality. So, Mr.Speaker, until we can see these lists we cannot say whether or not the Premier is practicing what he indeed preaches. And I for one would like to see these lists submitted today. MR.TULK: A man of very little substance. MR.LUSH: I would like to see these lists today so that hon. members will know where the capital expenditures of this Province are going and which communities, which municipalities are receiving the public dollars of this Province.

I would like to see these lists. So,Mr.Speaker, it is important that the two hon. ministers concerned would certainly respect the privileges of this House, would certainly respect the dignity of this House and would certainly submit these lists to all hon. members today so that we can all be informed , so that we can all know where these capital expenditures are going and whether indeed 3?4~

June 22,1982 Tape No . 1535 MR .LUSH : they are being distributed in a fair and just manner . Mr .Speaker, that is an important matter , that is a very important matter . ah-2 \'le are talking about equality , we are tolking about fair and just treatment to the people of this Province , we are talking about regional disparity, we are talking about how 1.,ell the government is following this plan of regional disparity , how well they arc treating the people of this Provi nc e and to what degree arc all of our people being treated equally, fairly and justly . Now, Mr .

Speaker , I can say all of that in other words, in another way using different adjectives and what have you,but I think I have made the point . ~1R .TOLI< : Very strongly,! would imagine . ~1R . LUSII : A.nd l certainly hope that the two mini st ers concerned can provide us with these very important lists before this concurrence· lcbate is finished . Mr .

Speaker , I also want to allude in these initial remarks to the Department of Labour and Manpower. l do have a lot to say about that particular department and I am sure that my first time allotment will not permit me to say all of the thing which I want to say on this particular department . First of all I would think that the Department of Labour and Manpo1ver is a misnomer if there ever was one. I refer !>ar ticularly to the manpower, to the manpower

section . The manpower section, Mr .Speaker , would give one the impression that the 3?~q

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1536 JV - 1 MR. LUSH: government is initiating, developing and planning manpower strategies in this Province for the future, ehat they are developing training programmes for our young people, that they are developing training programmes for the adult

section of our population, that they arc preparing training and re-training programmes for our workers so that they will not be displaced with progress and the new technology that is tal<ing place in the world today and in Canada. But, Mr. Speaker, when one realizes and one looks at the ex~enditures of the Departrnent,of the Manpower ~ection in particular, one realizes what a misnomer this Manpower Division is. Mr. Speaker, if I can just find the Labour and Manpower

Section to illustrate the point that I am making; for exu.mple, under Development and Training, which one would cxpect,as I have said, to be a major part o'f Labour and Manpower, that Development and Training would comprise a major element, this Province should really be getting down to brass tacks in terms of training our people, in terms of developing new skills, in terms of developing the new skills that the future labour market will demand, in terms of the future industrial demands when one looks at the amount of money that is being spent, one realizes how little is being done. For example, Mr.

Speaker, in ~urriculum Development and Testing, curriculum Development, one would see this as the most important element of any development and tr;;.~.ning programme, thatthis is where we study and do research to find out what the demands of the labour market will be, what the future industrial demands would be, ~hey are spending a $195,000, Mr. Speaker, $195,000.00 - not a good high school budget really, for conducting research and study - $195,000.00 of which $118,000.00 of this comes from the Federal Government. 3/Sn

June 22, 1982 MR. SPEAKER(AYLWARD): t-1R. LUSH : !>1R . SPEAKER : MR . LUSH : Tape No . 1536 JV - 2 Order,please ; Order . l\ Sll8 ,000 .00 a mere - Or<ler , please ! order, please ! The hon . member ·~ time has elap sed. Oh , my golly ·"' ell , I will <JCt at it again and <levelo~ the points that need to be developed here . NR . SPEAKER : 'l'he hon . the Minister of •rransporta tion . MH . DAivE : Mr . Spenker . \~he-re am I!

I am interested in the remarks by the Cho:tirmun of the Commi tt ee. and I '"as also more than a little interested in wh at happened at the Committee meeting and , I suppose , somewhnt a little disappointed in the type of que st ions that were asked by the Member from Terra Nova (Mr . J.ush) in deal inc; 1"ith the department's estimates and the extensive programme that is ongoing throughout th e Province and capital construction, the new initiatives in the area of the licencing system and new initiativcG ln 3?SI

June 22, ]982 Tape No. 1537 MJ - l MR. H. Di\WI·:: the areas of seat belt leqislation. The hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. T. Lush) dealt specifically with items pertaining to his own district.

I am not saying that the member should not from time to time address himself specifically to those areas but, SL~t'in<J os how lw WFIS IJ1c only member from the Opposition who attended the Committee meetinqs,it seemed to me that the questions cominq from the member should have been a little more qlobal in scope, a I ittle more in-depth questions and therefore he would have received perhaps more in-depth responses fro:ro myself during the Cormni ttee meetinqs. The department this year, as well as the Department of Municipal Affair~- my collNlque the MinLstc ~r· o[ Municipill Affairs (Mrs. If.

Newhook) can speak for hcrscl r a little L<ter on - we are involved this year, after lenqhty discussions by the Premier and other members of Cabinet with tne construction industry, both the highroad construction industry and the general construction industry - one of the thinqs it was thouqht that would help stimulate the construction industry and qct things onstrcarn c<~rly in til<' yoor was the c<trly tcnclc,rinq process,and this Wt' <tccomplisht~J,.tnd iL h,Js 111ct with, Mr.

Spet~ker, a 9reat deal of succes .s.l\nd there are people workinq on hiqhroads throughout the Province, both in projects that are ongoing as part of an aqreement between the federal qovernment and the provincial government, an agreement I might add, which was to the advantage of the Province. I remember last year in Estimate Committee that the members opposite said we should never become involved aqain in a 50/50 cost shilring of the Trans·Canada llighv1ay or a primary highroad system.

Yet when the Province tried to negotiate hard and long for a better agreement than the 50/50 that was offered from the federal government, there were screams oE 'Stalling', screams of 'Get on with it, ~et on with 3/S?

June 22, 1982 1'ape No . 1537 M,1 - 2 MR. R. DA WE: the project, Never mind the hard negotiations, never mind trying to yet a better deal for the Provincr, ne ve r mind tryiny to make sure that the people of Newfoundland e~re treated ctju.!lly with other Cu nadians, just do somethingJ"' 3? s '~

June 22, 1982 TC\fle 1538 PK - l MR. DAWE: like the hon. members opposite always get on with things that are so inconsistent. Their alternative, Mr. Speaker, to any programmes, any positive proql"ummc.'s that come· rrom this side of the liouse ,arc always so wishy-washy, they arc one side of. the fence today and I: hey are on the other side of the fence tomorrow. >OME HON. HEMBERS: True. MR. DAWE: No wonder the people of Newfoundland voted so overwhelmingly for this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, for the policies and the programmes of this particular government . SOME HON. MEMBERS: near, hear! MR.

WARREN: You have to agree.You have to agree. MR. DAWE: ---- Mr. Speaker, this year the Department of Transportation is involved in a number of construction projects 1 some of them expanded considerably fran previous years, but the status quo, Mr. Speaker, the level of funding is not as great as it should be.

The past two or three years has seen the Pederal Department of DREE,which funded a number of secondary road projects in this Province,remove its funding for roads, 'T'.he Labrador Straits Road agreement, or part of the Labrador agreement whLch involved the roa~ section, was the last DREE roads programme that we have seen, even though the Province has a great number of legitimate requests in for resource development areas, for roads to resources, roads to develop resources.

We have seen a blind eye turned to this Province in the area of DREE allocation of funding, but other areas of Canada,supposedly with better economic conditions than ours,have seen themselves the recipients of a number of DREE projects. It has caused considerable concern in the road construction industry because people in this Province who had geared up over a number of years to meet a certain J f.~ l1

June 22, 1982 Tape 1538 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: level of funding, to meet a certain level of construction activity,were found with the rug pulled out from under them. The level of funding from the Province, Mr. Speaker, has remained consistently the same. We are doinq Gvcrythinq that we. can as a governmGnt to acknowledge the legitimate asp irations of the people of this Province in transportation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: It is unfortunate that our federal government has not seen fit to treat this Province in a similar manner as it has ot~er provinces in t~e Canadian Confederation.

And I would like to see this changed, Mr. Speaker, and we will neqotiatc, if it means prolonging some agreements from being signed so that ~e can get a better deal for this Province thGn, Mr. Speaker, I think that is what we should do. We have been successful in the highroad agreement in changing from a 50/50 to a 75/25 with the federal government paying the larger Portion as they legitimately should. There are additional funds this year, Mr.

Speaker, in an area of bridge construction and causeway construction which is of particular interest to me as a mem~er representing a district with several bridge problems that will be addressed in due course - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: .,. as a number of other projects around the Province will be addressed. MR. REID: A good member. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, we have an extra $1 million funding this year from the 32~S

- June 22, 1982, Tape 1539, Page 1 -- apb MR. DAWE: Provincial Treasury into bridge construction, provincial funding. There are a number of other areas of this Province which require extensive capital construction. They will be addressed over the next number of years in a number of terms, with or without federal participation.

Of course, if in addressing ourselves to the particular problems we were able to have the advantage that other Canadian provinces had when they were building their roads and getting their infrastructure in place, then we would not have to worry about whether there was enough funding to go around to meet the aspirations of the construction industry, but, more importantly, to meet the aspirations of Newfoundlanders who require and deserve better levels of transportation than they now enjoy, or do not enjoy as the case may be. MR. SIMMS: A good point. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I was dissapointed.

I would hope that some of the questions that will be asked during this Concurrence Debate will provide an opportunity for a little more indepth questioning and answers on my department as well as other departments. I was disappointed.

Unfortunately th~ members opposite do not consider the Estimates Committees the time and place, obviously, to ask the pertinent, indepth questions; they would rather be more willing to allow a couple of individual members opposite to take the forefront, to take the show on the road, if you will, and ask what they perceive to be embarrassing questions of government during the sittings of the House of Assembly rather than the kinds of important questions that will get the kinds of important answers that the people of this Province deserve. 325f1

June 22, 1982, Tape 1539, Page 2 --apb MR. TOBIN: they do not show up? MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: How can they ask them when Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, the minister talks about indepth questioning. Well, let me illustrate the kind of indepth knowledge that the minister has. He talks about the 75/25 per cent deal that he has gotten with the Trans-Canada Highway from the federal government. He talks about how it was important to fight for the best possible deal that he could for Newfoundland. Of course, nobody objects to that. Mr.

Speaker, when it follows along t~ese lines, mainly that the federal government was allocating the same monies to the Provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick as they did to the Province of Newfoundland, but the Provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia decided that they would match the federal government's contribution dollar for dollar and thus it became a fifty/fifty arrangement, but because we were only going to contribute 25 per cent it became 75/25 per cent.

And the minister went around telling what a great agreement only because we were going to put in 25 per cent even though we got the same allocations from the federal government as the Nova Scotian Government and the Government of New Brunswick. MR. TULK: A cute trick. MR. LUSH: It was a cute trick. All the minister had to do was go a little further and not put in any money and it could have been a,lOO per cent federal agreement. MR. TULK: That is right. 3?.~7

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 154 0 so - l MR. TULK : How much road would you want now? MR . LUSH : The logic , ~tr . Speaker, is something like the student who dashed home all out of breath and told his mother that he saved a dime because he ran home behind the bus. And his mother said; Why did you not save a dollar and run home behind a cab?' MR. TULK: It is the same thing. MR. LUSH : And it is the same logic , Mr . Speak er , the same logic that the minister talks about wh en he talks about this great 75/25 per cent deal.

And again, of course , all he had to do was put in 10 per cent and we could have had a 90/lO ,or not put in any and we could have had 100 per cent . Granted we would not be getting as much roads done - MR. TULK : clear the 9allc1ics? MR. LUSll : Mr. Speaker, could 111e - nol fJettj ncJ as much pavement done on the Trans-Canada Highway or as much improvement - MR . TULK : He is waiting for his interview , MR. LUSH : - as the people in Nova scot ia and in Ne111 Bru nswi ck . Mr .

Speaker , the minister, in 11heeling and dealing and delaying that project for one year, brought New foun dlan d very little and we are not getting as much in term s of improvement to the Trans-Canada Highway as the other t1110 Maritime Provinces only because, of course, this Province did not put ln the mo nies that the two other provinces put in. MR. TULK : Right on . MR. LUSH : So, Mr . Speaker, that is the logic the minister uses 111h en he talks about in-depth and profound questions and profound reasoning and logical reasoning, that is the kind of reasoning that the minister 32SA

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1540 so -2 MR. LUSH: enters into. Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister still did not say anything about the list, this most important list1of which communities in Newfoundland would be receiving capital expenditures for upgrading and reconstruction and paving of their roads. The minister still did not mention that. And what is the situation~ Have all the areas been decided upon? MR. TULK: Be quite. You did not answer questions in committee. Be quiet. MR. LUSH: Have all the monies been allocated; if so, which areas, which communities - MR.

TULK: You did not answer any questions in committee,now bequiet. MR. LUSH: -have received monies for the upgrading and reconstruction of secondary roads? MR. TULK: Go away, boy. MR. LUSH: And that is most important and this hon. House should know the answer to that important question. Which areas, which communities, which regions are going to receive the monies for the upgrading, reconstruction ;:md pavincr of r-oads in this li!;cal yt!ar for 1982? That is important, Mr. Speaker, and the minister chooses to ignore that very important question.

And I hope that the minister will certainly come up with that information,and also the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) come up with the same information which I have requested from that particular department. Millions and millions of dollars being spent, Mr. Speaker, and nobody in Newfoundland knowing where they are going other than those communities receiving them 1 except by the various announcements and this paper and that paper about various ministers and backbenchers announcing which areas of the Province, their own ridinys, their own districts 1 are receiving these monies, 32Sq

June 22, 1982 Tape 1541 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: which areas are being recipients of this pork barrellinq in the Department of Transportation and in the Department of Municipal Affairs. The minister talks about, Mr. Speaker, talks about concentrating on district questions. I"iell, Mr. Speaker, I am going to continue to do that in this House, I am going to continue to fight for a fair share of the public dollars of this Province for the district of Terra Nova.

I am going to continue fighting for that as long as I am a member of this House, And as lonq as I see any discrimination shown, as long as I see that the monies are not being spent fairly, are not being spent in a fa{r and just manner,then this hon. member is going to keep fighting for the district of Terra Nova MR. TULK: Right on~ MR. LUSH: - the district, Mr. Speaker, that keeps electing me election after election and I guess that is why they do it. I guess that is why they do it. That is why they .do it, Mr. Speaker. That is why they do it. And the member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) is going to keep pressing on the upward way, Mr. Speaker, going to keep pressing on for the people of the Terra Nova district, pressing for roads, pressing for water and sewer,and nobody on the opposite side is going to stop me. I know very few of them mention their districts but,Mr.

Speaker, I will mention the district, my district, the Terra Nova district in the Estimates Committee, in the con- currencey debate and every chance I can get, because the people of Newfoundland certainly know where the Terra Nov.a district is and they know the unfair and the unjust treatment that it is receiving from this provincial government • And as long aa that is the case, Mr. Speaker - MR. STAGG: Do they need a stronger member? 3?.RO

June 22, 1982 Tape 1541 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: They cannot find one. They cannot find a stronger member, Mr. Speaker, and they know it. They know it. MR. TULK: Even the Tories down there said that over the weekend, did they not? MR. LUSH: Pardon? MR. TULK: Even the Tories down there said that over the weekend. MR. LUSH: They acknowledged it over the weekend. They acknowledged it over the weekend. MR. TULK: The Tories? MR.

LUSH: The Tories in the Terra Nova district acknowledge what a great job their member is doing for them, fighting, and begging and struggling and scratching, trying to get a few cents, trying to get a few dollars of their own money returned back to their district - MR. TULK: And they said, "What is wrong with our Brian"? MR. LUSH: - the money, Mr. Speaker, the money that comes from agriculture~ the money that comes from logging, the stumpage fee that the minister just put on,because the large amount of money that is going to come from the Terra Nova district on this stumpage fee, Mr.

Speaker, a large amount of money that comes in from fishing, the amount of money that comes in from tourism. It is amazing, Mr. Speaker, if it were all totalled up,the 3?. h ·;

.~:: June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1542 MJ - 1 MR. T. LUSIT: money that .come into the Newfounrlland Treasury, the Newfoundland Government from the hard-working residents and the hard-working t·axpayers of the Terra Nova district. And they deserve more, they deserve better treatment, they derserve a more equal treatment-if we can have that terminology , •more equal' - they deserve more equal treatment than what they are getting. They deserve without any adjectives at all, Mr.

Speaker, without any adjectives of comparative or superlative degree, they need better treatment than what they are receiving from their provincial government. But, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to qet on to again, and I hope that the minister will tell us this afternoon in this r:•!·ticular sitting, I hope that the minister will tell uswhether ~s whether or not he is going to give us that list, th~t list of secondary road construction, upgrading and paving in the Province this year so all hon. members can see and so that all of the people of Newfoundland can see where their dollars are being spent.

And I hope that the minister will provide that list this afternoon. Mr. Speaker, again I want to get back to, ;md I suppose I have qot nobody to respond on the Manpower

section of the Department of Lilhour and Manpower, the ;;ection 1vhich one would expect wou1 d be putting in proqr<'m"lP.S, putting in cnnr"P" of study, Mr. Speaker, to meet the future demands, the future labour demands, to meet the industrial demands of the futher. Mr. Speaker, it has been known for some time nm..r that f"lnr vocational schools are teaching courses that are outdated, are teaching courses for which there is no demand in the labour market 1 and schools that are equif.-J)PrJ with obsolete and practically archaic equipment. And training people today, Mr.

Speaker, for a world of technological advance and teaching with equipment and facilities that are outdated and teaching courses for which there is no demand r · 'r. Speaker, in 3 2 R .?

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 1542 MJ - 2 MR. T. LUSH : the modern terminology we call it an imbalance betwP.en \llhat we are teachinq in our trade school s and what the future dem ands and present demands of the labour force are. And all hon. members know that right throughout Canada today there is , "roblem \.rith respect to training skilled people 1 and this at a time when we have such outrageous high unemployment , What a challenge , Mr.

Speaker, what an opport unity for any goverm,•ent in power today to be- training its people , \vhen we have so rrany idle peopl~, -:;o rw11w t)en.-.1~ ~oini'T notttinq , so many people wantin<J jobs, so many people wanting to be trained , and here we are doing not hin g, doing absolutely nothing in terms of traininq our prnpl~ For the labour demands of the future , .md nr>t only of the future Mr . Speaker . but of today. 3~f11

June 22, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : ela!'sed. MR. LUSH; get on to that again. Tape 1543 PK - 1 Order, please! The hon. member's time has Mr. Speaker, I will have to I will have to get on to that again at another time because this imbalance and mismatching of the courses in trade schools and the labour force, is absolutely ridiculous. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister for Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) is not available today, he is out on public business,and I am sure that if he were here he would respond to the hon. member and set him straight on some of the things that he seems to be astray on. So I do not pretend to be able to fulfil that role as well as the Minister of Labour and Manpower, but I certainly can fulfil it to the extent that is required by the hon. member's remarks. He seems to indicate that there is not sufficient thrust being put into the Department of Labour and Manpowe~but I can only presume that he just has not read the Budget.

He has made sort of bald statements without any backup whatever. I think if we turn to the Budget we see that for the Department of Labour and Manpower, the revised figure for 198l-l982,there was an expenditure of $3,345,200, $3.3 million approximately, for 198l-l982 1the fiscal year just finished. And in this fiscal year the hon. member would seem to suggest that there was not sufficient monies put in there, I suppose there is never sufficient, but suggesting tha, there was not a matching amount of money, and what do we find, Mr. Speaker~ Instead of $3.3 million last year we find $4.4 million this year. 3 2 61~

June 22, 1982 Tape 1543 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: So that is a 30 per cent increase. In other words we are budgeting a third more this year for Labour and Manpower than was actually expended last year. Now I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that one would have gleaned that from the hon. member's remarks. 326t;

June 22, 1982, Tape 1544, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: I think that one would have thought from the hon. member's remarks that we were short-changing this department

whereas in actual fact, if we look at the figures, we find that exactly the reverse is so. So that is rather strange, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. member specifically referred to development and training. He mentioned curriculum training, for instance, and that is part of development and training, \•!hat do we find as part of the department's expendi ture.f The total manpower development expenditure in 1981-'82 was actually considerably less due to a fortuitous amount of receipt from the federal government, was considerably less than was budgeted. In 1981-'82 the amount budgeted was $556,900.

Say $.56 million was budgeted in 1981-'82, there was only an expenditure of $155,100 and, as I say, that was due to increased receipts that we did get from the federal government rather fortuitously. Now, we actually spent $155,00 in manpower development last year,l981-'82. What do we find this year, Mr. Speaker? We find we are spending $883,000 this year. So that is not only considerably more than was actually expended last year, but it is at least almost SO per cent more than was budgeted last year.

So, I mean, the hon. member's remarks in regard to Labour and Manpower give one impression,where in actual fact, if you look through the budget and see the figures, you find exactly the difference. MR. NEARY: Tory talk. Tory talk. DR. COLLINS: Now, the hon. the Leader u~ the Opposition(Mr. Neary) says that I am just giving Tory talk. MR. NEARY: Yes, Tory talk. DR. COLLINS: When I give facts he falls back on just these sort of irrelevant partisan statements. 326R

June 22, 1982 , Tape 1544, Page 2 -- apb DR . COLLINS : There is nothing Tory or Liberal or anything else about that, the fucts are there . It means that last year we spent $3 .3 million in Labour and Manpower, this year we are budgeted to spen d $4 .4 million . Last year we spent $155 ,000 on manpower development , this year we are spending $883,000. Now, these are very , very different figures than the figures that were sort of implicit in the hon . member 's remarks . So I am sure when the hon . the Minister of Labour and Manpower(Mr . Oinn) comes back he will go into this ih much more detail . He probably will absolutely devastate the 32fl7

June 22,1982 Tape No. 1545 ah-1 DR. COLLINS: retorts. So hon. member opposite with his just very mildly would like to correct the erroneous , I would suggest, the erroneous impression left by the hon. member when he spoke that we are not putting sufficient monies this year into Labour and Manpower when in actual fact we are putting in considerably more than was expended in that department last year. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): MR. CALLAN: The hon. member for Bellevue. Thank you, Mr.Speaker.

Mr.Speaker, I wanted to make a few comments and perhaps ask a few questions regarding the various departments which were studied, s~utinized, whatever 1 to the best of the ability of the member for Terra Nova (Mr.Lush) who was in attendance at these committee meetings.

Mr.Speaker, I want to ask again for what it is worth , to ask again, a couple of the same ques'tions that the member for Terra Nova (Mr.Lush) has already asked without very much forthcoming,at least from the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Dawe), who got up and responded in his own peculiar way - MR.WARREN: MR.CALLAN: MR.WARREN: MR.CALLAN: Nasty manner. - his own peculiar way. We will ~et him straight at once. lie was asked a simple question.

The minister who just came back into the legislature was asked by the member for Terra Nova (Mr.Lush) when will he be in a position, and why does he not do it now, this afternoon, why does he not table the list containing the roads programme for this Province for this construction year? The only bit of information that we can find so far is,of course,by looking through the public tender calls in the various newspapers. MR.WARREN: That is right. Yes. MR. CALLAN: Pick up the newspapers on the weekend, or on the weekday for 326f\

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1546 SD - l MR. CALLAN: that matter, and there you see various public tender calls for various roads and bridges throughout the Province. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that it is an insult to members of the House of Assembly to have to wait half the Summer to find out whether or not they are in fact going to get any of the taxpayers' dollars in road work for their various districts. The same thing applies, of course, in the Department of Municipal Affairs.

The water and sewer project approvals are kept top secret until the middle of the Summer, sometimes long after the House of Assembly has closed for the Summer recess, and in any event weeks after the Budget and the estimates for the various departments have all been approved. MR. WARREN: Shameful. MR. CALLAN: So, Mr. Spe~ker, let me ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook) a point blank question, and I would ask that when the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the member for Gander, when she does stand that she will not side-step and evade all of the questions and talk the sort of roundabout nonsense that the Minister of Transportation gave us ten minutes of earlier, lnstead of answering the questions, dragging in red herring that had nothing to do with his department - MR. DAWE: We improved the environmental legislation. There is no more red herring there now. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I hope that the Minister of Transportation, when he gets up again before the day is finished, will tell us - MR. WARREN: Red caplin though. MR. CALLAN: -that 1 yes , I have in front of me the roads programme for this year, outlined district by district as we have had it done in the last three years, 326q

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1546 SD - 2 MR. CALLAN: I think it has been on the go anyway, and thaL th(~ Minister or Municipa.l 1\f[airs (Mrs. Newhook) will do us the courtesy of tabling the same thing. Mr. Speaker, over the weekend and every day that goes by I ,and I am sure that all especially the members who represent rural 3?7n

June 22, 1982 Tape 1547 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: districts in this Province, you know, get phone calls and letters asking about, 'I wonder where can I get a job, where can I get some employment?' And, Mr.

Speaker, we heard in the middle of the Winter, we heard the Premier, long before the election was called, even though it was designed as election bait no doubt, but we heard the Premier in the middle of the Winter telling us that this year government will be embarking on a new policy, it is called pretendering, the pretendering policy, whereby road work projects and other construction projects can be tendered early and therefore work can start early. Well, Mr. Speaker, where are these construction jobs?

The tenders have not even been let yet and here it is close to the end of June, a couple of construction months have passed us by, and still not only do we not have a list from the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and from the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook), a list of the various projects contained within this year's budget for the Province, but the tenders have not even been awarded and I suppose they have not been awarded in not 5 per cent of the projects throughout this Province. MR. DAWE: I wish you could say something provocative so I could get up and answer you. MR.

CALLAN: I do not intend to be provocative, I am asking simple straightforward questions. I would say one provocative thing, and of course I think it is becoming quite evident now to people all across the Province that what we saw and what we heard announced in mid-Winter and what we heard during heard, during the election campaign - MR. h'ARREN: That is right. MR. CALLAN: - had nothing to do with pretendering, but it had an awful let to do with pretending. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3 2 7 ·1

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1547 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN : And I would say that the Premier nm., in the minds of a lot of p·eople is becoming known as the qreat pretender - pretending to do one thin<:; - MR. TOSIN: Pretending that you are not around. MR. CALLAN: - pretending to plan to do some- thing and in essence not takinq the road that people thought he was going to take at all. MR. STAGG: The highroad , he is t~~ing the highroad MR. CALLAN: No , ·the Premier on practically every issue is taking the road that leads to antagonism and confrontation a r.d all of the other adjective!: that I could use. l1R .

TOBIN: jectives. MR. STAGG: nouns . MR. CALLAN: You ar.e not very good at your ad ­ You had to look for thern . These are not adjetives, they are Well I do not care what ·they are , they could be pronouns or adver bs. Mr. Speaker, perhaps, when the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) gets up, I think she is goinq to get up now, perhaps she can also tell us) 3/7?

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1548 MJ-1 MR. W. CALLAN: is one of the reasons why she has not announced the programme for the year, is one of the reasons going back to something that happened last summer, that a lot of municipalities across this Province- and perhaps the minister could tell us how many - MR. BAIRD: You were not around here last Summer. You do not know. You stepped aside last Summer. MR. CALLAN: No,no I came back here last year, it was April lOth; this year it was four days early, April 6th. I do not believe - MR. STAGG: You should not have got back then. MR. CALLAN : Mr.

Speaker, the member was out there trying to do his part to make sure I did not qet back but he only did me good. MR. WARREN: He increased your vote. MR. CALLAN: lie increased my vote by being out there. But, Mr. Speaker, last year there were a number of municipalities in this Province which refused to accept their offer of water and sewer - Phase I, or whatever - there were a number of municipalities where the town councillors said, "No, thanks.

We will not accept your offer of water and sewer for this year because hand in hand with it you are saying to Ui, 'Now you can have your water and sewer but you have to aqree to impose property taxes.' "And so last year there were several. Just now I used the word 'many'. I will take that back; there were several municipalities that just absolutely refused to accept their water and sewer offer from the government because they were not satisfied . MR. STAGG: Name them . MR. CALLAN : I am going to ask the minister to do it; the minister knows that it is a fact. I am askinq the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.H.

Newhook) will she name 3271

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1548 MJ-2 MR. Cl\r, I ,1\N: them. /\nd I am askinq her also is that the reason why she has not made the Jist available, because she docs not know how up-to-date and how firm the list is. Because the minister may discover that when the offer is made that some and perhaps other municipalities will come back this year and say, 'No, thanks. We do not want to accept your offer of water and sewer for our 3? 7 ij

June 22, 1982, Tape 1549, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: town or municipality because we do not believe in property taxes and we do not have the will of the people to impose it so, therefore, we will not accept it.' Perhapstheminister can answer that one. I hope that the minister, and I am sure that she will - MR. BAIRD: Do not be talking so foolish, boy. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): elapsed. MR. WARREN: Order, please! The hon. member's time has By leave. By leave. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the last word was by the member for Humber West(Mr. Baird). will continue some other time. MR. SPEAKER: Municipal Affairs . MRS.

NEWHOOK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to respond to what my bon. colleague has just said about property tax. I would like to advise you, Mr. Speaker, that we have sixty-one municipalities now with property tax in place. We have ninety-five other municipalities which have requested propert y tax, and in thirty of these we are doing the assessments this year. We have also about 120 municipalities in our Province in which property tax is not mandatory.

These are municipalities which have very small systems or they have acquired them through Canada works projects or in other ways, or maybe they just drill wells systems and these sorts of things. Actually we only have twenty-four municipalities that have not yet requested the property tax." These.are the ones which would have at least 50 per cent or more of their towns' services, water and/or sewer. 3271

June 22 , 1982, Tape 1549, Page 2 -- apb MRS. NEWHOOK : And I am quite sure that if we did not have the long list for which we have to do assessments no doubt some of these twenty -four that have not yet requested it \'JOuld be doing so. They know now that it is going to take us probably three years to get these assessments fini she d, so , therefore , they have not made the requests . I would also like to respond to my hon. colleag ue there who said that he ca n­ not see any construction yet .

I would like to point out that first of all once a project is approved for water and sewer and capital funding is guara nteed, then design work has to be done . ·rhis takes possibly a month or a month and a half or so , maybe even more than th at , to get the design work done . This has to be done by the engineers and then it has to come to my department to be approved . MR. CALLAN : Design work was done on Norman 's Cove five years ago. Five years ago. MRS . NEWHOOK : There are 327R

June 22,1982 Tape No. 1550 ah-1 MRS NEWHOOK: a few projects that were pre- designed and these have all gone this year, everything. Actually the Premier said,before the Budget carne down, he said that the capital works project will be announced early,and it was a~nounced early because it was announced during the election. MR. CALLAN: Election bait. MRS NEWHOOK: No, it was not election bait, Mr. Speaker. It had been planned all along because the Premier had made a public announcement and said he was going to do it,and at that time there was absolutely no idea or no plans at all for an election. MR.

CALLAN: MRS NEWHOOK: truthful. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MRS NEWHOOK : The minister knows different. No, I am being absolutely Oh, oh! I am not the type of person who triesto make misrepresentations. I would not do it to my own colleagues and I would not do it to t:w colleagues on the other side of the House. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS NEWHOOK: But,anyway,I would like to point that out.

My hon. colleague from the district of Terra Nova (Mr.Lush) was talking about discrimination, that it was not spread out fairly, and I would like to say that at the time that these announcements were made we had no idea then how the elections were going to go,and I would like to point out that there was a ~reat deal of that money that went into districts that were formally Liberal and we had no way of knowing that thev were going to be on our side this time. MR. BAIRD: We had an idea though. MRS NEWHOOK: My colleague from Bonavista North 3?.77

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 1550 IB-2 MRS. NE\-IHOOK: (~tr . Cross) there. he was just shouting about all the money that is going into his district this year . And we had absolutely no idea that the towns of Gambo and Rare Bay and - where was it? - Rare Bay ana Trinit~- no, Trinity and Gambo , Badger's Quay and Greenspond, we had no idea that these were not going to still be Liberal this year,and this announcement was made during the election . Also this year we are spending a great deal of money down in Burnt Islands and , 3?7f\

June 22, 1982 MRS. NEWHOOK: district now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MRS . NE\'/HOOK: Tape No. 1551 you know, that is a Liberal Oh, oh. These were announcements that were made during the election,or prior to the election­ anyway, whenever the Budget was decided on and what amount of money we were going to spend. I would also like to point out, Mr. Speaker, that this year we are spending possibly $33 million to $35 million on water and sewer projects, which is nore than we spent last year, and last year we spent more than we did the year before. And I agree with my colleague from Terra Nova district (Mr.

Lush) when he says there is not enough money, IVe all so - 1 agree with that, and I would like to see about $100 million to be spent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MRS. NEWHOOK: And actually this is the amount that we really need to spend to catch up,because every year there are requests for over $100 million worth of water and sewer projects. Last year I think it was about $120 million, this year it is somewhere in the vicinity of $105 million or $110 million. And as we go ahead and deliver more water and sewer, it seems that the requests still keep corning in and piling up, so there seems to be no catching up.

And I do agree that we really need .to do about one hundred million in one year, and then I think possibly we could, rnaybe,keep on an even keel and be able to provide the water and sewer projects as they come in. Now, my colleague from Terra Nova District(Mr. Lush), he was complaining about the money spent in his district. Well, I know that we have spent upwards of $3 million in Glovertown, we have spent a great deal of money in Eastport. As a matter of fact, Eastport is now spending money that was provided to them last year, and they had it left over. And we 327q

June 22 , 1982 Tape 1551 JC - 2 MRS . NE\VHOOD : co -operated with the Town of Eastport and they want to use the money for something different from the original plans,and we approved all this , Mr . Speaker , so I cannot sec how the hon . colleague from Terra Nova District (Mr . Lush) says that we are not doing things fairly . Also , I can point out that, you know, that Salvage has water system, that Happy Adventure has a water system, Sandy Cove , I am going to meet with Sandy Cove now in the next week or so; they just need a small :\? An

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1552 IB-1 MRS. NEWHOOK : extension. I have met with the town of Happy Adventure and they need some upgrading. And I realize that it is important to the town of Happy Adventure and I am going to do my best to see that they get some monies for that as quickly as possible. So my colleague over there, he had better be pretty ~ice if he wants to get the money value. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: The iron lady, boy, the iron lady. We have her on ou~ side. MRS. NEWHOOK: But during the Estimates Committee, Mr.

Speaker, I did say to my hon. colleague that I would provide a list of water and sewer projects for this year, and we will do that. I promised I would do it and I will. But first of all we have a pqlicy in our departmentthat we make sure that the various municipalities are advised of the projects they are getting and what they are not getting before we advertise or announce the full programme, our budget. Before we announce that we make sure that municipalities are advised. And we are in the process of doing that now, Mr.

Speaker, and as soon as that is completed - you know, there are so many that we have to advise whether they have been approved or not approved and we are talking about hundreds and hundreds of letters and this takes a little while for them to go .through the usual process - but when that is completed my hon. colleague will have the list of the water and sewer projects.And the same thing applies to our programme on the sixty/forty cost sharing for the local roads in municipalities, that as well. and he wil1 certainly have Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased with my - 3 2 8 "l

June 22 , 1982 Tape No . 1552 IB-2 MR . SPEAKER (MCNICHO~order, please ! The hon . minister 's time has expired . MRS .NEWHOOK : - hon . colleague 's performance at my Estimates committee . You know , he asked some very meaningful questions and these questions - SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave ! By leave ! MR . SPEAKER : Order , please ! The hon . minister 's time has elapsed . Is it agreed by leave? SOME RON . MEMBERS : Ry lP.ave ! By leave ! MR . SPEAKER: Agreed . Fll{!) . NmvllOOl .: Yes, I am sorry . r will just take another second . lie asked some 328?

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1553 PS - l MRS. NEWHOOK: very good,pertinent questions, and I thought these were answered to his satisfaction. I must say that my colleague from the district of Bellevue (Mr. Callan), he was not there, and if he had been perhaps he could have gotten all the answers then that he is looking for. Thank you. MR. PATTERSON: wants to complain. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He does not want answers. He just Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I do not find it difficult to respond to the hon. ministers deliberations and announcements, because the hon. minister is such a kind, generous, broad-minded person, Mr. Speaker, and I know she cares about the Terra Nova district as she does Bonavista North, having spent a large part of her life in that area and knowing the potential of the areas concerned I know she does what sh£ can. I am delighted to hear that she is going to be doing some work this year in Sandy Cove and Happy Adventure.

The minister, of course, does not decide all of the expenditures,particularly durin0 the tim£ of election, but I know if the minister did decide it, there woulc'. be no pork barreling.I know that. If the minister decided where the monies were going she would have no pork barrelling, she would be no part of t:1at kind of nonsense, because she is a fair and honourable lady. Accept what she says, and I know that she tries to treat all parts of the province equally, :l JHl I know she has a special place in her heart for the Terra Nova district.

As I said before, she is not alone in making all of those decisions and som~times I am sure what she recommends gets scuttled, I know that. But, I know that if I had to count on her support and her allocations to the Terra Nova district and other districts throughout the Province,that it would be done in a more fair and equal manner. I do thank her for her announcement this afternoon, that 328:t

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 1553 PS - 2 MR. LUSH: she will be trying to help out the people of East,.,or.t Peninsula , Ha;_,py Adventure in particular, and Sandy Co ve, where there are some qreat needs, growing needs, pressing needs for '"ater and sewer . I would ho pe that the minister would be able to make a s~milar announcement re Glovertown,which is one of the fastest and most rapidly growing communities in Newfoundland today, and is stimied and stiffled in that development because of a lack of a proper and adequate water and sewer system . But , Mr . Speaker, I would :!..i.' ~ to see the list .

I think what is happening is that the ministers are keeping that list away from us deliberately,and I expect that that list will be published \.,rhen the house is closed , Mr . Speaker . sm1 .E liON • M.EM13Ens : II ear , hear ! MR. LUSil: I expect that that list will be published , ~?.A L

June 22, 1982 Tape 1554 TM- 1 rm. LOSE: if ever, when the House of Assembly is cl0sed. And I believe that both lists, the list from the Department of Transportation and the list from the Dep~t of Communications,should be published before we get out of this particular debate, the Concurrence Debates,on these government services. I believe these lists should be published before this

section of the debate is done and over with. But, Mr. Speaker, again I want to come back to the Hanpo\'ler Division. Now, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) got up and in a feeble manner tried to defend the Manpo~-o1er Development

section of Labour and Manpower. I said it was a misnomer, Mr. Speaker, and I main- tain that,that it is a misnomer in terms of the work that it is doing,in terms of developing manpower training skills in this Province today. Mr. Speaker, it is simply dispensing money spent by the federal government, that is all it is doing. That is all the Manpower

section is doing. The Minister talks about the large expenditure of money. The expenditure of money, Mr. Speaker, by the Province for development and training of our labour force in this Province was $600,000. A little better than a half million dollars. Now tell me, Mr. Speaker, what that amount of money will do in terms of bringing in new courses, : computer courses, and technological courses, courses that are very expensive? What is $600,000 going to do?

What is a half million dollars going to do in terms of training our people in these highly technological skills, in terms of purchasing the equipment and facilities, very expensive equipment and facilities needed today? The 1inister boasts and is very proud of the fact that the provincial government is spending $608,000 1 a half million dollars, not enough, Mr. Speaker, to equip one vocational 328~

June 22, 1982 Tape 1554 TM- 2 tom . LUSfl: school in the Provi nce . Not enou<Jh to equip ono vocc.~tion.ll school in the Province . Now , Mr . Speaker, one only has to take a quick look at the task £orce or the re por t or the task force , the federal task force that was presented to the government a year or so ago 1 a task force havinq to do with employment opportunities for the eighties . Mr. Speaker , one only has to take a quick look at that to see what the situation is across Canada and can easily genera lize from that report what the situation is in this Province. And, Mr.

Speaker, one finding, for example, says, 'With an even more rapidlv develo~ing technology it wjll beessential to have continuing education systems where individuals can train, retrain and upgrade throughout entire lives .' 3/AF:

June 22, 1982 Tape no. 1555 MLeP - 1 MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it talks about - another reccomendation or another finding talks about 'nevertheless, for those who are properly trained there will be many interesting employment opportunities, especially in electronics, computer science, programming and maintenance, engineering, energy developing, conservation, management, finance, health services and biotechnology! Mr.

Speaker, all of these areas represent areas where we are not training our people sufficently, it demonstrates the great imbalance and the mismatching that is taking place in our post-secondary institutions today, particularly in our Vocational Schools. It illustrates the imbalance and the mismatching with respect to the courses which are being taught and the future industrial demands. And, Mr. Speaker, that is verified by this task force onemployment opportunities for the 80's for what the situation is all across Canada. MR. STAGG: Is this the Federal one? MR. LUSH: Yes, this is the Federal one. And, Mr.

Speaker, this illustrates the great imbalance and the great mismatching with respect to training in Canada and the future industrial demands. As I said earlier, one only has to generalize from what the Canadian scene is, from what the picture is in Canada to what it is in Newfoundland. So, Mr. Speaker, to defend the indefensible, to get up and to suggest that the Department of Manpower is doing its job in this Province is something, Mr. Speaker, rather ridiculous. And to think that with $600,000 we can take care of training our people, it is only a drop in the bucket, Mr. Speaker, it is only a drop in the bucket.

The task force also sp eaks about the difficulty of young people entering post-secondary institutions today because of the cost, because of the cost of food, shelter and clothing. In short, because of the cost of living it talks about how difficult it is for our young poeple to enter post - secondary 3287

Juno 22, 1982 •rape No . 1555 t-tLeP -2 ~1R . LUS!I : institutions, vocational sch ools «nd universities to train themselves ror the future . l'ih .lt have we clonu this vcnr , r-tr . Soeakcr , '"h«t h<:~vc we done? we have removed the allowance that was qiven to students in vocational schools and we are now charqing them a fee . And, Nr . Speaker, there is a qreat fear oC the particular measure in this l?rovince today , there is a qrcilt fear that there is goinq to be a decline in the enrollment throuohout our vocational schools next year . Such a fear, Mr . Speaker, is present .

Many people think that there is qoing to be such a decline over the next couple of: years that maybe some of our vocatio nal schools will close . ,. 3 ~AA

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1556 IB-1 MR. LUSH: And I am just wondering whether or not that was not the intention of the government. I am just wondering whether or not that was not the intention of the government,so that we could reduce the expend~tures of the government by closing down some of our trade schools in some of the smaller areas of this Province. Wehave ·,roof of that, Mr. Speaker, when just some weeks ago the government laid off eighteen vocational instructors. And even though the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) tried to say that we are putting in new courses, there was nothing, Mr.

Speaker, to compensate for the layoff of these eighteen instructors. And I want to make the point very emphatically and I want to make it crystal clear,that there is a great fear among our people in this Province that there is going to be a reduction in the vocational services in this Province, a reduction, Mr. Speaker, in a vital area. MR. TOBIN: They were underpaid. That is only part of our education subsidy. MR. LUSH: I am talking about manpower, Mr. Speaker, I am talking about manpower training and this has to do with manpower training. The courses in our trade schools -sometbnes, Mr.

Speaker, it is very di[[icult to tell which department is responsible for what. Maybe this manpower - MR. BAIRD: The hon. member is right. MR. LUSH: As I said it is a misnomer. Maybe it should come under Education,because it is simply dishing out, spending the money sent in by the federal government to pay for certain courses. 'Phat is all manpower is doing. They are certainly not doing any development or any establishment of their own programmes. They r:;mnot be, Mr. Speaker, whun one looks at $500,000 lo b1·ing in the kind of technological and scientific courses that are going to be 32AQ

June 22 , 1982 '!'ape No. 1556 IB -2 MR. LUSII: needed in the future , the kind of technological and scientific facilities and equipment which will be needed . Mr . Speaker , $500,000 '"ill do nothing , <.1 measly amount, Mr. Speaker , in terms of developing programmes to train our young people for the work force of the present and for the work force of tomorrow . It does not show very much insight at a time, Mr . Speaker , when unemployment is outrageously high. 31qn

June 22, 1982, Tape 1557, Page 1 --apb MR. LUSH: And what a job this government could be doing. What a challenge to any government, to train our people, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER(Russell): has elapsed. Order, please! Order, please! The time for the han. member MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I will get a chance to carry on, I suppose. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Stephenville. SOME liON. MEMBERS: !lear, hear! MR. STAGG: Well, Mr. Speaker, I had the honour to serve on the Estimates Committees with the member for Terra Nova(Mr.

Lush) for a couple of years, and I must say that what he says is very repetitive, he has been saying it since 1979. He had weak arguments in 1979 and, as a matter of fact, they appear to have been diluted over the past number of years. Now, Mr. Speaker, I heard from a fairly reliable source that the federal government is coming up with a new budget on Monday. MR. YOUNG: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STAGG: Hear, hear! That is right. Oh, oh! I understand that that is correct.

Now, they had the last budget in November of 1981 and, as you know, that budget has just about devastated the economy of Canada and, of course, we being part of the country most susceptible to deterioration in the economic climate of the country, it has been very, very difficult for us to survive under these circumstances. So my han. friend opposite said that the Province is not showing very good stewardship of the monies sent down to Newfoundland from Ottawa and this, of course, is typical of the kind of mentality that has always pervaded the 3? ~ .,

June 22, 1982, Tape 1557 , Page 2 -- apb MR. STAGG: Liberal Party in this Province and is typical of the eight Liberals opposite, th~t they arc of the opinion th~L the money is sent down from Ottawa , the great God in Ottawa manufactures the money. It comes from a source which is known as Ottawa and Ottawa has no correlation to the public or the people of Canada . Now, my friend from St . John 's North(Mr. Carter) on Friday morning, I believe it was, the last time the House sat, gave a very good speech on where the money comes from in Newfoundland that ostensibly comes from Ottawa.

And vast amounts of that money , hundreds of millions of dollars that have been mooted by the Liberals in this Province to come do\m from Ottawa, as if they arc gifts to Newfoundland, foreign mo ney so to speak, money coming into the Province for which we should be down on our knees forever in gratitude , strange to behold that an awful lot of that money, a very significant • 3/q;:>

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1558 RA - 1 MR. F. STAGG: amount of the money, I will not say 100 per cent of it, but a very high percentage of it actually comes from Newfoundland. And ~here does that money come from,Mr. Speaker?

Well,that money, the money for these very worth-while projects that are in- valved in these Government Services Estimates, The Department of Transportation, The Department of Municipal Affairs, the-Department of Labour and Manpower and the other departments, the Department of Public Works and Services and one other department, the money that keeps the Province going,lo and behold considerable amounts of it,practically 100 per cent of it,comes from provincial sources.RP.cause our income tax is call- ected by the Federal Department of National Revenue, Mr. Rompkey's department - AN HON.

MEMBER: Rumpkey .- Rurn]JKey. MR. STAGG: Some of my colleagues prefer to change the name somewhat, but I call him Mr. Rompkey with an'O', others would prefer to spell it and pro- nounce it otherwise.

The federal tax department call- ects money from Newfoundlanders and takes it up to Ottawa,to the coffers in Ottawa,and through various formulas, equalization formula,through unemployment insurance and recently in deminishing quantities through things like the DREE programme, some of that money comes • back to Newfoundland.But it needs to be said by Newfound- landers time and time again,and it needs to be understood by members of this House of Assembly, because through repetit- ion,and the members of the Opposition have,to some extent, occupied the field as far as that argument is concerned, people may be believing that all the money that comes 3? q .1

June 22 , 1982 Tape No. 1558 RA - 2 MR . STAGG : down from Otta1..ra £rom taxing the people of Canada , is money that Newfound- landers had nothin g 1-.rhatsoever to do with. Well , that is abso1utely not the case. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars a year are collected from Newfoundlanders , are brought up to the Department of .Finance in Otta1va and some of it gets back down to New­ foundland . Now1 it may very well be that on a straight balance sheet, Mr. Speaker , look at that situation, it may very well be that there is a sliqht balance ~(q4

June 22, 1982 Tape 1559 JC - l MR. STAGG: in favour of the central government, in that there may be more comes down than qoes up. But let us look at the strategic value of Newfoundland. Where is Newfound­ land? Newfoundland is on the east coast of Canada, occuping and having brought into Confederation practically the whole Eastern offshore portion of thi::; countrv. Practically all of the fisheries in this country emanate from waters brought into Canada by Newfoundland in 1949. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, Hear! MR.

STAGG: The vast proportion of that resource is exported to other countri 0 s and the money comes into Canada and helps our balance of payment and enables Canada to keep its dollar - it usect to enable Canada to keep its dollar around 100 cents 1\rnerican. 'l'hrough the mis­ management of our federal colleagues who are the bosom buddies of the hon. members opposite, through their mismanagement, now the Canadian dollar, when we last heard of it, it was at 76 cents and falling. Mr.MacEachen,the wile Scot, is now trying to get his irons out of the fire by bringing in another budget.

I do not know if it is unprecedented in Canadian history, l\1r. Speaker, or not, but it is very, very unusual to have a budqet in November of one year and thccn lo be back to the people again with another budqct in June, an eight month budget. We talk about the John Crosbie budget, or the Clark government that only lasted nine months.

Well, it looks as if Mr.MacEachen's budget is going to have an even shorter life, and that in a government in which they have a considerable majority made up of toadies and basically politically unprincipled people, who are going to vote for the security of their offices in any event. Now, 3?.~1

June 22, 1982 Tape 1559 JC - 2 MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, these are some of the things that hun. members opposite should be directing themselves towards. Theyshould not ignore these major issues, they should not iqnore where this Province stands at this particular time, and where the money comes from. When the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) qets uu and whines about not enough monies being spent 3?gR

June 22, 1982 Tape No. 1560 IB-1 MR. STAGG: here or not enough monies J.Jeing spent there. he should direct himself to the dilemma that we have in this Province, the dilemma that is brought about by 1 i : ilnd his friends unwavering support for Mr. MacEachen und his policies. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that in November of 1981 there were only two people in this country who supported Mr. MacEachen's budget, Mr. MacEachen,because he had brought the budget down and if he did not support it who would ,and the other person was Mr. Stirling,the then Leader of the Opposition, he supported it.

Of course you know what happened to Hr. Stirling. We now - ·MR. NEARY: The debate was good this afternoon till you brought it down to such a low level. MR. STAGG: I see I got the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) into the House for the first time this afternoon. I must be getting to him, Mr. Speaker. I predict that the Leader of the Opposition, the in-House Leader of the Opposition will speak next because he realizes t" L,-1:- . MR. SIMMS: What about Mrs. MacEachen, can she (inaudible)? MR. STAGG: No, he is a bachelor . Mr. MacEachen is a bachelor. No one would have him apparently.

He had himself out on tender but no one would have him. No, he is ?. 1--""lr.··r.lor. MR. SIMMS: No wonder. MR. STAGG: And he has no children. Mr. Speaker, these are items that I would like for hon. members opposite to deal with. Some of the reasons why we in this Province have some difficulty in maintaining the type of service that 11c would like to maintain,or to get into areas ~hat we would prefer to get into ,is because of the unwavering and unquestioning support of devisive and destructive Liberal policies that are perpetrated upon this country by the friends of hon. gentlemen 3187

June 22, 1982 Tape No . 1560 IB -2 HR . STAGG: opposite . I heard the member for Ter ra Nova (Mr. Lush) refer to the £ederal committee that was reviewing employment opportunities for the 1980's - MR . NEARY : The task force . MR. S'l'AGG: The task force, yes, that came around here some time ago. 'l'ha t one was not too bad . It \vas preceded in about a month or so by another committee that sat in various places throughout the Pr