Manitoba Hansard — 5 June 1978 (Sitting 56B, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-56b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 5, 1978 Time: 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - CONSUMER , CORPORATE AND INTERNAL SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Committee come to order . We are on Page 19, Resolut ion 31 , 2.(

b) Research and Planning . The Member for Transcona was speaking prior to the Private Members ' Hour . The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Yes. I wanted to move on, Mr. Chairman , to the issue of the couple that lost their money with the travel agency that went bankrupt even though the owner of the travel agency is still running another firm and that's the Sidden case . I asked the Minister questions about this in the Legislature and I'd like to ask him whether in fact his Research and Planning group have looked into the Ontario legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister . MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , I'm advised that we are familiar with , we've looked into the Ontario action in this area. At the same time we're discussing the matter with the Man itoba Travel Agents Association which has an interest in taking some action on its own that would help to maintain the integrity of the services provided by its member organization and we are hopeful that they will be able to take some action which will assist in maintaining higher standards within the travel industry generally .

As we mentioned in the House, there have been relatively few instances of this having occurred and I think perhaps this instance that you quote is unique in terms of the size of the loss that was sustained by the customer . That is not to say that this will not become a problem again but the industry itself is very much aware of the need for some self-policing in that area. MR. PARASIUK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't think that 's a sufficient answer . You know, this happened last fall and what was involved was $2,400 and it was $2,400 that a couple had saved up for quite a while .

This was going to be their once-in-a-lifetime trip and they went to a travel agent and - I don 't even know the name of the travel agent - I know that the newspaper reports have carried the name of the travel agency that went bankrupt and they also published the name of the other travel agency which is still in operation owned by the same company. It strikes me that what's happened here is that the individual who owns that particular firm has used the safeguards of a limited company to limit his obligations in this respect.

I think that there is a matter of lack of confidence in the travel agencies and I'm amazed that the Manitoba travel agents haven't acted to date. I think that in the one sense we are somewhat fortunate that this case occurred now and in some isolation and it's true that we haven't had too many cases in Manitoba to date .

However, they certainly had a number of cases in Ontario prior to 1974 and that's why they brought in the legislation there - I think they had something like over 100 cases - and a few years prior to that in Britain there were not only hundreds of people who were affected , there were thousands of people who were affected . I would hate for us to let something like this slide until we have not one unfortunate situation but a catastrophe involving hundreds or even thousands of people. That's why I think we've been given a warning . The warning , I think, has hurt that couple tremendously .

I am appalled, personally, that the Manitoba Travel Agents haven't banded together and compensated the couple for their loss and I'm appalled that they haven't done anything to date because I think that self-policing would have been a method for them but they haven't acted to date.

Since it's about five or six months since that bankruptcy and since nothing has happened , I'm wondering whether in fact it isn't the duty of the Manitoba Consumers Bureau to sit down with the travel agents - they should have done it beforehand - ask them what they're going to do, get a definite commitment that they will provide compensation to the couple, get a definite commitment that they will set up a self-policing system, which is satisfactory, I think, to the Consumers Bureau as well as to the travel agents, and failing that type of action on the part of the travel agents, because it has not happened to date, 3179

Monday, June 5, 1978 that the government should be prepared to bring in legislation . Now, I intend to bring in some legislation if I have to in this respect as a private member's public bill but I think it would be far bette r if the government acted and I think it would be far better if the Manitoba Travel Agents acted prior to that. You know, if some of the members oppos ite don't think that this is a critical issue, if they think that that couple losing $2,400 is something to scoff at, I think they 're wrong.

I haven 't seen any solutions being posed for that particular couple and I haven 't seen any action being proposed by the Travel Agents Association. They surely must know what type of action is required to prevent this type of situation from reoccurring and yet it strikes me that they 've been stonewalling.How many people have deposited since the Siddon case and how many people are, as a result , exposed? I don't even know if we have that type of information but it strikes me that these are things that the Research and Planning group should be looking into .

What I'm afraid of is that I have raised about three or four items that should be looked into and the Minister assures me that they are being looked into and that they are being monitored but I don 't know if anything is happening . That's the key thing and frankly I raise these issues this year; I will be raising the ones I raised this afternoon again next year in terms of getting an update and a performance evaluation of what this group has been doing but I think , frankly, that the Siddon case and the issue arising from the Siddon case is far too important to be left until next year.

So I'm asking the Minister if he has already met with the travel agents, if they have assured him that action will be taken in the very near future and if they have assured him that some action will be taken by the travel agents to provide some type of compensation for the Siddon people. MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman , I can tell the member again that there has been consultation between our department and the Travel Association. They are aware of the need for corrective action and preventive action in this area.

I'm sure that the publicity given to this loss suffered by a customer has had some negative effect on their position and the amount of business they have been able to transact which involves deposits having to be made. But I again tell the member that we are not unmindful of the problem that exists here and that there has been consultation and there has been communication between the travel people and our Bureau. These matters are not dealt with in an overnight way.

We want to ensure that the opportunit y is given to the Travel Association to do the sort of thing, in a self-policing way, that would be, I think, extremely helpful to their image and to the industry generally . I should point out to the member that there have been at least three cases where losses appear to have been sustained by people who were clients of individual travel agents and that after some assistance from this department restitution was made and what seemed to be a loss resulted eventually in the travel agency making good .

In this particular instance, in this case of a rather major amount, we cannot report that kind of progress but we are very sympathetic to what has happened. We are very anxious , as the Member for Transcona is anxiou s, that this not happen in the future . We think the opportunity should be given to the Agency Associati on to take that corrective action . Failing that , we will have to reconsider that matter in terms of, as the member suggests, some kind of legislation . MR. PARASIUK: Well, I would like to get more specific on this.

Is the Minister saying that his department has had consultations with the Manitoba Travel Agents' Association but that in the six months between the Siddon case happening and the present day, the Manitoba Travel Agents' Association have not been able to confirm with the department that they are going to compensate, provide some type of compensation for the Siddon couple for their loss of over $2,400 which was incurred because the Siddon couple had good faith in the Manitoba travel agents?

Don't they think that there is some obligation on their part to provide some type of compensation for the Siddons for their loss because they had good faith in them? Have they indicated that they are prepared to act to provide compensation to the Siddo n couple? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , I'm advised that the Association at this point and because this matter is in the bankruptcy courts , the particular agency involved is in bankruptcy and what determinations will be made there are in process but , in the meantime, there has been no inclination received so far from the agency to undertake to compensate this client of this bankrupt agency for the " loss sustained . Now they may well be awaiting the final recovery from the bankruptcy courts but up to this point I can tell the member that this inclination from the Agencies ' Association has not been received so far. MR.

PARASIUK: Has the Minister used his moral suasion with the Manitoba Travel Agents to persuade them to provide compensation- has he done so to date? MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don 't know what the member really includes in "mo ral suasion. " 3180

- ,. Monday, June 5, 1978 If he means has the department made efforts to draw this matter to the attention of the agency more specifically, certainly that consultation and that communication has been effected. I have not been personally involved in any of the discussions relative to th is matter . MR.

PARASIUK: We can confirm then that the Minister has not been personally involved and that the department to date has been ineffective in gaining any type of specific concrete assurance from the Travel Agents ' Association that they will provide definite action to compensate the couple for their loss of over $2,400.00. Given that his department has been ineffective to date, is the Minister prepared to intervene to ensure that the Manitoba Travel Agents' Association seriously attempts to provide compensation? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , while there may have been no sign of progress in this matter up to this point, I am not convinced that that will not take place . I'm not prepared to say at this time and at this stage whether or not any direct intervention would be entertained. I would suspect not, that the department is capable and is skilled in these matters and I think that they are well able to conduct the investigation and to make recommendations to the travel agency which would bring about some better general policing of the acceptance of deposits by agencies. MR. PARASIUK: Well, Mr.

Chairman , the agency itself is in bankruptcy but the owner of that agency is operating another agency. I don't believe that the Siddons can lay claim against the other agency - maybe they are - but the point is that here we have a Consumers Bureau , I think we have a flagrant abuse of the consumer by a travel agency and the Consumers Bureau has been negotiating and consulting supposedly for a period of six months, has not been able to achieve anything specific, and the Minister is saying that that's sufficient, that he's satisfied with that type of performance.

It strikes me that the Minister is saying that that 's sufficient , that he's satisfied with that type of performance. It strikes me that the Minister should, in fact , be acting directly in this particular case. And I see that the Member for Wolseley is probably providing some type of advice.

Perhaps he could provide the advice publicly too as to inform us of how the Siddons can get some type of compensation because while all this is going on they are out over $2400 and I don 't think that they 're the type of couple that can easily shrug off a $2400 loss especially since they 've saved up for a long time for this particular trip. I think it's quite a shock to them at their age to have this situation arise , and I think it's much more shocking for them to see this company, or the owners of the company, operating another company .

And they can 't touch it and they just observe, they see that going on and they wonder to themselves what type of society is this that we live in when these types of situations can arise and be permitted to exis t. You know , if we didn 't have a Department of Consumer Affairs , if we didn't have a Consumers Bureau perhaps one could then argue that we should establish one to try and ensure that these situations wouldn't arise. But we do have a Department of Consumer Affairs. We do have a Consumers Bureau. It's not been able to achieve anything concrete with this specific agency.

It's not been able to get anything concrete from the Manitoba Travel Agents' Association with respe ct to compensation, and the Minister says with respect to the issue of compensation he's hopeful that despite the fact that six months of negotiation haven't yielded anything, he's hopeful that something might happen in the future and therefore he won't directly intervene personally. I just don 't see any logic in that. I think all the evidence points to the opposite. The agency has had sufficient time to act. The travel agents have had sufficient time to act.

The Consumers Bureau has had sufficient time either to be influential or not influential in this particular matter. I think the time has come where the Minister really has to get involved in something like this and I can't understand why the Minister has this great hesitation to get involved in this particular case.

If you go on and ask the question about how will we be safeguarded as a society against something like this happening again in Manitoba , again the Minister says, "Well, let's rely on the private Manitoba Travel Agents Association for self-policing." Now, if we look at their performance to date that's not sufficient.

I'd be delighted if the Minister could announce something specific with respect to a self-policing proposal that the Travel Agents Association has put together, but if they've got nothing even tentative to offer after six months what are we going to do - wait for three years, four years , five years before something happens, because noth ing is happening and that's why I think it's really quite critical for the department to come to grips with this particular issue.

Therefore does the Minister have anything concrete to tell the Committee regarding the tentative or proposed Travel Agents Association self-policing system? Have they got one in mind? Do they have anything specific to offer in this respect? MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the Minister answers can I ask the members at the back of the table who are still continuing to debate the City of Brandon amendment bill if they could do it in a little lower volume? The Minister. 3181

Monday, June 5, 1978 Mr. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I don 't know what I can add to the observations that I've already made to the Member for Transcona who has repeated the concern he has and which we all feel for the loss sustained in this individual circumstance. I point out to him again that this is a matter before the Bankruptcy Courts at the moment. He points out that the bankrupt travel agent is still operating another company.

I'm advised that amendments to the Federal Bankruptcy Law that are being contemplated are designed to eliminate just this kind of corporate shifting that apparently seems to have been possible in this case. The federal law will apply and to that end some amendments will be made if they haven't already been made to prevent a similar escape in the future. Mr. Chairman , this matter has not been finally resolved.

I am not able to report on what specific plans the travel agency has to do some policing on its own, but I'm sure that the unfavourable publicity resulting from this loss will make them rather anxious to correct the situation and do so as quickly as possible . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , you know the Minister raises these hopes but, you know , I point out the evidence which says the opposite . Now, on what basis does the Minister come to the conclusion that the Manitoba Travel Agents Association will do something to either provide compensation or set up a self-policing mechanism?

What tangible evidence does he have, over the last six months , to back up his sanguine hopes in this respect? If he had any evidence whatsoever maybe I could agree with him. But since he is providing no evidence whatsoever I don't know how we can agree that this is an issue that we should just gloss over and wait and see, and see if they do something in the future because I'm sure that they are good people and that they are as concerned with the Siddons as we are. I don't think that's enough . Now, can the Minister give any evidence whatsoever to back up his sanguine hopes? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not giving any further evidence but I suspect that the member is somewhat in error in describing my hopes as sanguine; they are anything but. I am optimistic of the kind of corrective action that will be taken and there is no greater or more compelling reason for the agency to take that action than to have their business eroded by the kind of unfavourable publicity that has resulted from the actions of one individual member. MR. PARASIUK: Then he has no sanguine hopes; he just has hopes without any basis whatsoever apart . .. I don't know. MR. McGILL: There is no blood on it. MR.

PARASIUK: Well, you know , I am amazed in that respect. What we have is a situation where the Minister is going to say that he is prepared to sit by and play with fire and hope that the Travel Agents Association will come up with some self-policing system and if they don't in the next six months, 12 months, 18 months - because he has not set any time limit on them as to when they should set up such a policing mechanism - that we will sit by and live on borrowed time, waiting for something that could happen to happen. And when that happens, I wonder what position the ..

Minister is going to be in if in fact we do have another situation where a couple loses its money. ,... I think in that situation the Minister surely will be direct ly responsible and directly accountable . So it strikes me that what he would want to do would be to make sure that he has a reasonable proposal in hand from the Manitoba Travel Agents Association as to how they will deal with this matter, when they will deal with it, and if they don't deal with it in three months that he would be prepared to do something.

I think it's important for him to do someth ing in this legislative session because if he doesn 't do anything now, we'll have to wait another whole year . Since the whole travel business is really booming with a lot of tour operations and a lot of cut-rate operations where people are really trying to compete with each other , there is a tendency that a couple of fly-by-night operations will get into the act ; advertise , because advertising in some respects doesn't cost them that much money; get people involved and we'll get a whole tour that may lose its money .

Now, if we talk about a tour on a - I don 't know the plane sizes but , you know , you could have 60 or 70 people involved, you could have 90 people involved . I know that -(Interjection)- That's right, you can have up to 450 people involved with a 747, and that can happen with just one company, one case That's a lot of Manitobans who will be affected , so I'm really quite amazed that the Minister won't give a commitment that he will have something definite in place by the end of this Legislative session in order to safeguard the people of Manitoba from this problem reoccurring. MR.

McGILL: The Member for Transcona is beginning to infer now that the Minister of Consumer Affairs is going to be responsible in the future for bankruptcy losses throughout the tends to make 3182

,.. Monday, June 5, 1978 the responsibility and the office rather unattractive . We do have federal bankruptcy laws to deal with bankruptcy matters. No matter what the Member for Transcona says, we all are sympathetic to this individual loss but there may be, and there probably will continue to be, losses in connection with bankruptcies that occur in businesses. We'll do our best to avoid those kind of bankruptcies occurring . MR. PARASIUK: How do you deal with it in the real estate business if someone is in fact going to buy a house? I think that sellers and vendors are protected by some system .

What is that system? You know, the sellers and vendors are protected from companies going bankrupt and we've had companies go bankrupt recently in the whole real estate area. I think that the sellers and the purchasers have not been affected and they have not lost financially because some system exists , either through the real estate association setting up a self-policing mechanism or because legislation is in place to protect the buyer and seller of houses.

Now nothing seems to exist with respect to buyers of tours, and since this is an area that really is growing, since more people are involved, since we have received some warning , I think that we should at least look at some of the lessons we might have learned in the real estate area and apply them here. Now is there a provincial Act or set of regulations in place that affects the real estate industry to protect sellers and buyers of houses from any loss resulting or arising from the bankruptcy of a real estate company? Is there anything in place right now? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the Member for Transcona might be in a better position to ask that question under Resolution 33, Item 4. Securities Commission . In the smaller print, it goes on and says Real Estate Brokers Act. MR. PARASIUK: Well, no, Mr.

Chairman, with all due respect , I think that this is to do with research and planning and the point is, I'm trying to find out whether it is possible for the Research and Planning group of the Consumers Bureau to determine whether something else exists that could be applied in this particular case, and it specifically falls under this particular appropriation; if I ask it under the Securities Commission, then want to relate it back to this particular case, I won't be able to. That is why I'm asking it now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Well, I think, as Chairman of the Committee, that the Minister has said that the Research and Planning people are looking into it. MR. PARASIUK: Is there a Provincial Act in place that affects the real estate industry? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister . MR. McGILL: I'm not aware of any specific statute that would prevent bankruptcies from occurring . . . and this is in effect a bankruptcy. . . MR. PARASIUK: No, that protects the sellers and buyers of houses . These are the individuals who could be involved when a real estate company goes bankrupt .

They put in deposits, they might have even paid a certain amount; they don't lose that, there was some system in place so that the individuals don't lose if a real estate company goes bankrupt . We have had Showcase Realty go bankrupt and a lot of agents lost money as a result but I don't think any individuals lost money . I think that is because we have legislation in place that prevents them from losing money in these particular circumstances. And we have had Mousseau Mills go bankrupt as well.

Now, agents have come to me raising a whole set of questions here, but I agree, it is not the individuals who have lost money , it is the salesmen who have lost money and I think they have got a particular problem .

But the individuals haven 't lost money, and my point is that in this particular case, the individuals can lose money when a tour agency goes bankrupt, and I am raising this point after the Minister has said, "Well, I know that companies will go bankrupt and that people will lose money if companies go bankrupt." All I am saying is that people don't lose money in the real estate business if companies go bankrupt and I want the same type of protection for individual purchasers of trips and tours . MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we have a little more quietness. The Minister. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , I am advised that we do have, under the Securities Commission, some bonding requirements and an audit certificate program for real estate firms and this has been reasonably successful. But despite the bonding that has been required, there have been two or three bankruptcies resulting in fairly substantial losses in this industry as well. Those losses have 3183

Monday, June 5, 1978 been suffered by people within the industry and people involved in the actual operations .$ MR. PARASIUK: I think that you are going to have bankruptcies , and those people who are involved in the industry know the industry , know that there are some risks involved and unfortunately probably have to roll with the punches . But the people who go forward and talk to a real estate agent and list their homes , and those people who deal through a real estate agent and buy a home , thes e people have complete faith in the system and they are protected .

They are protected , and the same thing should hold true for people who are going to a travel agency and buying a place on a tour to go to England next summer to visit their grandparents or someth ing like that. I don't think that that is too much to ask for . We have something in place already for the real estate agency; I think surely we should try to get something in place , either of a voluntary nature - but since we haven 't got anything to date , can't we get something in through Statute Law Amendments to set up some type of a legislative requirement requiring bonding so that individuals wouldn 't be hurt?

Now, if the travel agency goes bank rupt and the tour company that is selling the spaces on the tour to the travel agency has difficulty , at least they have a mechanism to mon itor each othe r. They know the industry ; they know the fly-by-night outf its; they can do the checking.

I don 't think individuals going out and trying to get a good price on a trip to Brita in or on a trip to France or somewhere else to visit relatives or what have you, have the resources to check out whether in fact this is a fly-by -night outfit or not because sometimes the names are so similar that you don 't know whether you are dealing with Sunflight , Sun Tours or who , and you think well, yes, this sounds like a reputable company , I'll deal with it, and there 's no protection whatsoever .

I think that the Minister should look very seriously at the real estate mechanism and see whether in fact that it couldn 't be appl ied to this particular case.

I'm asking him to look at the Ontario legislation which I believe requires the registration and bonding of tour companies and travel agents , and I think that that's very similar to what we have in the real estate field and I'm pretty sure we must have had some bad experiences in the past - and I don 't know how distant that past was - in the real estate area and the government acted and now we don 't have any great problems and we have a lot of people having confidence in the real estate industry as a result. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Wolseley . MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, I had wanted to enter the debate in no particular manner , first when the Member for St. Johns spoke and then when the Member for St. Vital spoke because under research and planning they were sort of indicating tha t t he department should shift off into a different direction dealing with retail food prices and the enti re food policy . However , I would like to deal with the Member for Transco na firs t because like Don Quixote he seems to be fighting windmills in this particular situ ation.

He is dealing with a great deal of exaggeration because these things could never happen in the province of Manitoba because the industry itself has a policing mechan ism. I do feel that what they could do, is they themselves and the Minister could get together and put out a pamp hlet, and I'm not talking about an expensiv e pamphlet, or an advertising campaign to indicate that nobody in their right mind would ever pay for a trip in advance without getting the tickets . Now, tha t's buyer beware, because a book ing fee is only required of a $100.00 . So, there seems to be some problem .

The moral problem of the carrier, whether it be Transair or Air Canada , would be to g uage whether they would want to take Siddons on a complimentary trip because they certainly take enough politicians around the North American continent for free and other notable sports personalties and what have you , and they are always giving away sales incentive trips and what have you.

So it would seem to me that I sympathize with the Member for Transcona 's client or what ever that is look ing for some remuneration , but I suggest that you're always going to have those peo ple looking for a deal, and unfortunately I don 't see anybody standing up today and asking what happened to the taxpayers of Manitoba when the former government went into the wholes ale tour business and lost about $250,000.00.

I remember when they were inviting all the American travel agents up here for free drinks and free food , called familiarization trips , and the American travel agents simply made the wholesale contacts , the contacts with the different individual sites , i.e. whether it was a fishing lodge or what have you, and they simply went back and put together their own packages , they didn 't need the Manitoba government . So, hence the Manitoba government finally saw the light and got out of the wholesale travel business.

Needless to say, the agent who they paid for his publication, to the tune of about $60,000, and another Mr. Solmonson who got into the act, Thunderbird Travel ended up in Minneapolis and all those huge volumes and boxfuls of Manitoba tours were redundant because Thunderbird Tours together with the Manitoba travel tour business had tried to create a mon opoly and unfortunately in this case, or fortu nately in this case the marketplace went over , because the industry polices themselves, they have what they call , an IAT A appoin tment , an ATC appointment 3184 .... ... ...

- -- .. • Monday, June 5, 1978 and an A TC appointment and I would suggest to the Member for Transcona that this outfit was a wholesaler .

Normally you see a lot of this going on in the Eastern provinces where you have a lot of the foreign carriers who are very desperate to pick up business, but they very seldom filter on through into the west here , because the landing people , the land arrangement people haven't heard of Manitoba , Saskatchewan and Alberta, so what happens when an agent or wholesaler from those particular prairie provinces come forward , they demand payment in advance or they demand at least half up front. There is a cancellation date that the carrier i.e.

Transair, at least 30 days prior to departure has a cancellation date in which the plane is cancelled and no one loses any money . I would suggest that the investigation may reveal that this particular individual may have premeditatedly decided that it was time to get out of the wholesale business, and this is a very rare stamp in the travel industry . So, I can't help but feel that the - out west here, I know the former Premier Schreyer told people not to take a holiday, and maybe if the Siddons had listened to him they wouldn 't be out the money.

But you know, on the serious side, it would seem to me that you've got a situation here that is not going to surface itself too often in Manitoba because of the fact that the travel industry in Manitoba . . .

Air Canada has a monopoly here, the Winnipeg International Airport is no longer an international airport so to speak because Air Canada had such departure times that they 've driven all the foreign carriers out, so, what you have is Air Canada controlling a monopoly with a few regional carriers and Frontier willing to take people to Las Vegas and some other areas and Transair is the biggest operator in this area in this local market . So, I would suggest that the Siddons may approach Mr.

Reimer and Transair and work at it from - possibly the Member for Transcona can assist them and even myself I would be able to, if they were to write me, add my name of support because I am galled at the number of people on freebees and Transair, or whoever the carrier is, can't pick up the Siddons' tab, to at least take them down there. Now, I don't know who they were dealing with with land arrangements, maybe one of the problems is that the wholesale package that the Siddons bought and very stupidly paid for without getting the tickets, maybe that particular land arrangement is non-existent.

Maybe the destination is non-existent . What I mean by that is they may have been taking them to some place called the - well, Pere La Questa or something in Mexico, and maybe those people no longer have any dealings with any Canadian people. So, until I would know the destination of the person . .. For instance, if that trip, I don't know, maybe the Member for Transcona can tell me where their destination was, but if they were going for instance to Acapulco . . . A MEMBER: Hawaii. MR.

WILSON: Hawaii, well, if they were going to Hawaii, I'm sure the Hawaiian Tourist Bureau would pick up their land arrangements , so the only person you need is CP Air or whoever the carrier was to pick up the tab . I would think that that problem can be solved, and I don't think it requires any more interference by govermment in the private sector.

I think the experience of the former government going into the wholesale tour business, I think the experience of the former government trying to create a monopoly with Thunderbird Tours and paying for pamphlets that could have been printed for free if they 'd have got together with the huge advertising budget of the carriers, like CP Air and Air Canada , all these were mistakes that the former government made and I don't think we should be making the same mistakes . But , getting back to where I originally wanted to start and possibly to add something to the record for the Min ister , the Member for St.

Johns had said that in eight years he'd never been able to question the Min ister , and I know that I certainly tried , and I wish the Member for St. Johns had been here to assist in drawing some of the questions of some of the former Ministers , whether it was Mr. Toupon or whoeve r, we would have been able to stop the duplication and the huge expansion of the new phenomena called the Consumers Bureau in the Province of Manitoba .

Because it seemed to me we entered an era of an unbelievably rich and professional-type of approach to advertising consumer protection , were the Federal Government puts out a very inexpensive backgrounder called " What it is, What it does ," telling the story of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs federally , and then you look at the $176 .00 package that the former Minister , Mr.

Toupin , put together and stood up in the House and bragged about ; where there were cassettes , and he even alludes to it under the educational situation where they have a huge staff of civil servants running around to schools long before young people are enter ing the purchasing market; all of these things , it would seem to me, shou ld be the respons ibility of the Federal Government to fund.

In othe r words, eit her they are going to have this huge department in Ottawa called the Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs get into situatio ns and look into the consumer education of everyone , or they are going to get into it and fund it, because what you are going to have then are situations where some provinces will go overboard in spending money to get into the school system and place this on the curriculum . I simply say, Mr. Minister , I hope it is discontinued because I think it has a very 3185

Monday, June 5, 1978 limited value and I hope the Research and Planning people will support me in that area. I quote from an

article in which Mr. Toupin even indicated , once The Borrowers and Depositors Protection Act was proclaimed, that there would be a massive duplication of provincial credit lost on the books and federal duplication . One of the things that concerns me about Research and Planning is that they have all this legislation that they keep bringing forward but they don't ask the opinion, possibly, of the legal profession by a wide range . It seems that consumer protection laws have so many holes in them that they are like cheesecloth and are really a bonanza for lawyers to make fees.

I would suggest that they should be in plain simple English so that everyone can understand them . Regarding the Member for St. Vital - I can recall even myself today , after having spent a couple of years in opposition trying to figure out what the Consumers Bureau was doing - I find that he goes off into a concern all of a sudden about food prices . Well , I would suggest that this is a federal responsibility .

Every time I would phone up with an increa se in dog food or staples or I brought up questions of bread increases and what have you , it seemed that they would always get a provincial civil servant involved and I would end up somehow or other in Lakeview Square with the federal people.

So there is a question to ask and I don't profess to have the answer : Should the provinc ial people be monitoring food prices in their own bailiwick or the ir own province, or should we demand that the federal people set up a storefront operation that can be better identified so that the citizens of Manitoba don't have to go to the second, twelfth or seventeenth floor of a building in a back office to try to find some girl who is going to accept their complaint? I took exception to the Member for St. Johns . I am delighted to take these consumer calls; I think MLAs could play a bigger

part in getting involved in the day-to-day prices because one of the best non-civil servant people you have monitoring food prices are the housewifes of the province who can tell you the different food prices around. So basically I think the Member for St. Vital expressed a sincere concern. But I remember myself also in opposition and I think that Members of this Provincial Government and the Opposition should be apprised of what the Federal Consumer and Corporate Affairs does , so that when we look at expenditures under the Minister's budget , we are not suggesting duplication.

I can't help but feel that we have to return a lot of these problems to the marketplace, and I can't help but think of where - I believe it is in one of these periodicals from the Federal Government, where they say they want to examine the role and make people aware of consumer problems. But then we get into a real expensive area where it is called , " Investigate changing market conditions." In other words, is the Minister' s department heading into an area where , if we take over monitoring food prices, we are duplicating the role of the Federal Governmen t?

I think the Feds should be paying for this by means of transferring some to the Provincial Government; otherwise we should get out of it. And I think we have to have a storefront operation ; I think we have to get out of the back rooms and be up front; I think the education of the public slowly to going to Kennedy Street is a good sign . I do feel that the placement of the advertising material leaves much to be desired .

I can't help but feel under Research and Planning, that these Planning people should be saying that this advertising material should be in some of the retail stores rather than in lawyers ' offices, because I have found in my experience many people working for the ConsumerBureau that are really just agents for Legal Aid - most of the problems, they say, simply require a legal opinion and so they recommend that the people go to Legal Aid.

So it seems to me that if this material was available in the retail stores, a lot of these people could avoid expensive lawyers and things really can be arrived at by common sense and negotiat ion without expensive litigation . Basically I think that the Minister should be looking at areas . ..

One of the things that I didn't agree with the Member for Transcona on, while I am at it, is he wanted to set up a series of commissions and these , to me, well they are too expensive and really , what do they accomplish? ,If they are there to scare the industry and temporarily halt food price increases and what have you , 1 think there is a federal body that should be doing that .

We should be asking for possibly a greater structure from them in the Manit oba area because there is no reason why the provincial people should be pushing the Feds out , they will be the first people who will just love to step aside and let you do all the work . I think they have an obligation to the consumers and I really welcome the area - when we are going to get some of this expensive labell ing out of the way and we can deal with some of the products - where there will just basically be plain packaging which will get away from the The Federal Labelling Act.

I know a fellow who had some problems with some anti-freeze not too long ago. If we had possibly got rid of this labelling problem, maybe we wouldn't have had to sell all those black beans to Cuba or wherever we sold them . So I close with the comment that I hope the Minister 's department continues to deal with awareness; continues to let the public know that he has a Consumers Bureau and Research and Planning

section , and that it is located on Kennedy Street or wherever he intends to locate it. I think that we should slow down in spending more money in this area because I think the marketplace 3186 ..

• • .. Monday, June 5, 1978 takes care of it and I think the Federal Government will take care of the rest. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on 2.(b)(1), and we have been on this one item for more than two hours. The Minister. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , I just wanted to respond briefly to the remarks of the Member for Wolseley. I'm not sure that I understand just exactly the point that he was making earlier on.

I gather that he is concerned that there is a duplication of service between the Federal Department of Consumer Affairs and the provincial activities in this field and that he feels there may be some specific duplication in respect to the monitoring of food prices. This was a matter of some discussion earlier on when I explained to the committee that in conjunction with the provinces of Ontario and west , we were collaborating in monitoring 80 some particular food products and observing price fluctuations and combining operations in that respect.

It may well be that there are areas of in which there is duplication between federal and provincia l services being provided to the consumer. The member certainly takes a quite different tact than the Member for St. Johns who felt that because some services were providing benefits that a great deal more service would be warranted and that we could expect , by greatly expanding the sums voted for the operations of this department, to continue to provide additional services and to continue to get benefits that would be in some relationship to the additional expense which the taxpayers would have to accept .

I appreciate the Member for Wolseley 's comments on the problems that exist now in the travel industry. We had discussed a variety of possibilities in respect to minimizing in the future a recurrence of the kind of thing that the Member for Transcona has described in such detail to us and one of those , of course, is legislation and another is a fund for compensation funded by the industry itself, somewhat of the nature of the legal society where losses occur to clients of lawyers in Manitoba, and the Society undertakes to compensate .

This approach , I think, has been considered in B.C. and may now be operational and Ontario I'm told and there may be some answers to the problem in that general area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley . MR.

WILSON: Well, just to continue in the travel area, it would seem to me that maybe unknown to members there 's been a move by some of the large conglomerates, namely Power Corporation and others, to enter into the travel business and buy up all the IAT A appointed agencies in certain towns, and so what you have, in Winnipeg you have Air Canada controlling most of the · departures, you have the large conglomerates controlling most of the IAT A appointed agencies, and so, therefore, you have a responsible corporate citizen who is going to be very very aware of any bad publicity.

The key to it would be in the thing the Meer for Transcona alluded to, in thate, the buyer bewar 1hat he should be given some sort of education that he never never should ever pay for an entire trip in advance without getting a ticket for it. Even when you go and buy a Winsday ticket, you put up your dollar and you get your ticket. I think there is some education in the buyer-beware angle, but I called for restraint .

In a period of restraint this is one area that I think that when governments have to look at cutting back that expensive awareness material can be replaced by less expensive material, that field trips can be looked at. In other words, I'm suggesting priorizing the spending and when you talk about priorizing the spending, then you have to look at some of the things that research and planning people may be planning for the future . So, that is my concern that we don't go into any major food price inquiry, any major gasoline pricing and cement pricing and some of these other things.

I think that if there's federal laws on the books .. . I can't help but think of a personal experience that I had and it's called misleading advertising. I wrote to the provincial body and they gave me the name of a gentleman, a Mr. Fredette, he's on Main Street, he's with the Marketing Practices of the Federal Government. However, a Mr. Bardzey of the provincial department took it upon himself to investigate the complaint. This I have no quarrel with except that the federal people also referred this to a Mr. Robidoux, or something .

So, what I'm particularly saying is that if the misleading advertising is a federal responsibility, if food prices are a federal responsibility , I feel that the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs should simply be a forwarding agency to refer people into the right slot and, therefore, it would just seem to me .. .

I can assure you what you're really doing, the consumer is making the . . . you never get any compensation, what you do is make the retail operation aware that you have let the government know and I think that some good can come out of any government agency being sort of a forwarding agency, receiving complaints and writing to the particular retail, letting them know that they 're under observation, but I think expensive invest!gation and letter writing can best be served if it is left to the jurisdiction under which it falls, and if the Federal Government is ignoring Manitoba then I think it is incumbent upon us as government and myself as a member to get busy and to get after the Federal Government to recognize Manitoba .

I note with interest that they had 3187

Monday, June 5, 1978 , Halifax and a number of other cit ies, and they completely ignored Manitoba when it came to the nighthawk flights and I think that as a consume r, the government should have said to the co nsume rs, why aren 't you being given this benefit , to be able to go and visit relatives in Vancouver , relatives in Toronto?

As a result of our government making noises to the Federal Government Air Canada has reconsidered its position and CPR has reconsidered its position and it just takes an awareness on behalf of all the MLAs to force the Federal Government to get back and do the job of which they claim jursidiction for. I hope my comments are not taken in the wrong vein, I just feel that •if the Federal Government has a responsiblity, let's see that they 're doing the job . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Transcona . . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , the Minister does not have a Legislative Assistant to him for Consumer Affairs correct?

Do you have a Legislative Assistant for Consumer Affairs? MR. McGILL: I was nodding my head in the affirmative, that is cor rect. 'MR. PARASIUK: I really didn't want to pursue this matter that much furthe r. I don 't have any assurances yet from the Ministe r. He does have hopes , I hope his hopes are justified because I think the consequences to us all or to many people if they aren 't would be pretty tragic .

The Member for Wolseley has not provided any reassurance to me, however , in the short time he's spent dealing 'with the Siddon case, in fact he said if we pulled a few strings behind the scene maybe we could get some people to do something about it. That surely doesn 't deal with the issue and he does agree that those people do have a problem and that other people in the future may have problems , but he didn 't provide any solution that I think would be above-board in terms of dealing with this particular issue.

I also take objection to the Member for Wolseley saying that I'm acting on behalf of a client and he used those specif ic words. I don 't act for clients when I raise things in the Legislature. I deal with issues. If the member has clients when he raises issues in the Legislature , that 's his problem , I certainly don 't and I object to his stating that I'm acting on behalf of a client.

I think that surely there are times when people can raise issues in the Legislature , and that's our proper function , not talking about clients and I take strong person al objection to that, but before I get too excited I reminded myself of the source , so I let it pass.

I think the Member for Wolseley does require some education about consumer protection and consumer education and what the jurisdic tion of the Manitoba government is with respect to Consumer Affairs and what the jur isdiction of the Federal Government is with respect to Consumer Affairs , and I'm hoping that the Min ister might just take a couple of minutes to indicate what is the jurisdiction of the Department of Consumer Affairs and specifically what is the jurisdiction of the Consumers Bureau .

The Member for Wolseley seems to imply that they have no jurisdiction , leave it all to the Feds and that they should pack up thei r bags and close up shop and move over to the federal department. I don 't see that , I think that the province does a have role with respect to consumer affairs . I think that the Consumers Bureau does have a role .

I don 't think it's all the federal responsiblity, I think that there are compan ies which are incorporated in Manitoba, I think that there are other areas where the Mani toba governme nt certa inly does have responsibil ity, so I don 't really want to pursue the issue that much furthe r, but I do think it' s important for the Minister to just give us a couple of statements of what the jurisdict ion of his department in this particular branch is and does it have araison d'etre because I think that' s important .

The last speaker said that really , in his estimation and he's been around here for some time, it doesn't have araison d 'etre, and surely there are areas where the provincial governm ent does have the responsibility and does have the jurisdiction and I don't think it's valid to say, let the Feds do it. Now, am I correct in assuming this Mr. Minister? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , there are areas, of course , where the local Departmen t of Consumer Affairs, that is the Manitoba Department of Consumer Affairs has a very direct responsibility The administration of The Consumer Protection Act in Manitoba comes directly under the provincia l department; The Landlord and Tenant Act in its particular application provincially ; The Personal Investigations Act, and so the administration and operation of these . But there are areas in which there 's a federal and a provincial interest and it's not always possible to draw clear lines of definition .

We tend to try to co-operate with the federal departments , to use their services to the best advantages and to be able to, in our way, prov ide input into the amount of information that they gather. So, certainly we do have a sphere and area of respons ibility and action within Manitoba that would be very difficult at the present time to entirely translate to federal responsibility . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(1)-pass ; 2.(bX2)-pass; 3. The Manitoba Gazette , 3 .(a)( 1)-pass ; 3.(b)-pass; Resolution 31: Tesolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 3188 . -

Monday, June 5, 1978 $817,900-pass . Under Resolution 32, 3.(

a) Manitoba Gazette-pass; 3.(b) - the Member for Transcona.$ MR. PARASIUK: I just have a short question here. You explained in your introduction , and I checked this in Hansard , that the increase in Othe r Expenditures is attributable entirely to increased printing costs , is that correct? MR. McGILL: That is affirmative . The printing costs of the Gazette two years ago, as I mentioned , was $69 ,600, and the cost for the past year , would be something like $81 ,500 , and the 1978-79 increase over the 1977-78 voted figure , is $36,200 . MR.

PARASIUK: Now , do we tender at the beginning of the year and the bids come in. Would the figure of $88,800 be firm since we should have had the bids in and checked? MR. McGILL: I don't think the total of $88,800 is all on the tender. There are some other minor figures there . MR. PARASIUK: But it's basically quite firm? MR. McGILL: That 's right . MR. PARASIUK: Okay. MR.

WILSON: I just wanted to make the comment that under the Manitoba Gazette, the Gazette seems to be used in a number of areas that leaves a lot to be desired, and I call it, " for consumer protection " in that under The Garage Keepers Act one of the requirements of the Act is that it has to be printed in the Manitoba Gazette. I notice a lot of the times , a lot of the iron from the towing companies , all these old cars that they have there , sometimes as many as 60 or 70 cars are prin ted in the Gazette , and yet there 's nothing in the local dailies.

It would seem to me that in a number of cases for instance , in the issue of June 3rd , I note with interest there 's one where they just seems to put it in, and most of these particular vehicles are brought in, and I'm wondering if the plann ing and research people or the legal department could look at changing the definition to remove this requirement from the Manitoba Gazette and force them to put it in one of the Winnipeg dailies in a display

section . I apprecia te that the cost is only $3.50 or something to put it in the Gazette versus about $18 .00 to put it in the Tribune or Free Press , but it would seem to me that it would convince the pub lic, and possibly even the courts , that the greatest amount of exposure was done to ensure that the person so agreed was getting the maximum amount of money from • his unit that is being sold under The Garage Keepers Act.

So, I say that it' s spec ific ally wit h cars that are towed away - a fellow goes on a sabbatical, a university professor leaves his car and somehow or other it is towed away for lane cleaning or whatever ; he comes back from England after a year and finds that his car has been sold - and the only requirement was that the towing company who had been told to remove the car from the streets had taken it to his compound and had sold it under the Manitoba Gazette requ irement of advertising these cars in the Gazette .

So, I'm really wondering , the legal profession seems to look ¥ upon the Gazette as it's sort of bible where they can meet the requirements of certain statutes and I'm glad the Attorney General 's here , he might want to look at the possibility of getting some of these requirements out of the Gazette - which I say has a limited circulation - and into the public dailies as a requirement of part of the legislation, because it would offer fairness . I think part of the Consumer Minister's role might be to look at the role of the Gazette pertaining to the requirements of what it's really hoping to accomplish . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , The Garage Keepers Act requires certain notices to be posted in respect to financial activities of this type within the Manitoba Gazette. The member is not convinced that the circulation of the Gazette is sufficiently wide. That would require amendment to the Act in order to change the specification now that requires this notice to publish in the Gazette . This is normally where legal notices are posted and where they are looked for by people who are directly concerned.

The cost of this is borne by the people who post the notices, and it's additional volume in bulk in terms of the size of the Gazette but revenues are obtained in order to offset that additional cost. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)-pass ; Resolution 32: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum 3189

Monday, June 5, 1978 not exceeding $106,600-pass. Item 4. Securities Commission, 4.(a) - the Member for Wolseley . MR. WILSON: I wondered if the Minister could tell me if at any time that the Securities Commission staff borrows other members of his department and staff to conduct undercover work either in conjunction with the RCMP or on their own? By that I mean, is that Mr. Walker and the other gentlemen over there, if they are sort of pressed to meet a deadline on a particular securities investigation, do they have the ability to seek help from the RCMP or do they use Consumer Bureau staff?

By that I mean officers of the Consumer's Bureau, are they taken away from their role as protecting the consumer to do undercover work for the Securities Commission? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, to the Member for Wolseley , I am informed that it is not usual practice to borrow staff from other areas in the department to assist the Securi ties Commission in any of its special functions .

There was however, I believe, one particular case where one person from the Consumer's Bureau was used to provide some additional support service for the Securities Commission in one particular instance , but normally this is not regularly resorted to by the Securities Commission which retains its own staff for the purposes of its activities . MR.

WILSON: So, it is possible that if a certain person in one of the other departments had an expertise in a certain area that the Securities Commission could borrow this person to perform certain duties for the Securities Commission that he otherwise might be perform ing for say the Consumer's Bureau? MR. McGILL: I am informed that that happened on one particular instance but is not regularly done MR. WILSON: see. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , is this the body that would look into whether Jarmoc had used the name Jarmoc Incorporated illegally? MR. McGILL: I think the answer to that is no. There is no

part icular problem relating to securities. MR. PARASIUK: Which body would be doing it then? Where could I ask that question? MR. McGILL: Yes. I rather feel that perhaps we went by that under l.(c), Administrative Services and Companies or Corporations Branch . That would be normally the area in which matters of search would be undertaken. I think the member is referring to the particu lar instance of the use of the title " Limited ", and an effort was then made by the Corpo rations Branch to determine what authority, if any, Mr. Jarmoc had in this respect . I believe that investigation is continuing. MR.

PARASIUK: So, I could ask questions when we come to the Minister 's Salary , I could raise these questions again on this . MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)-pass ; 4.(b)-pass; Resolution 33: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $400,000-pass. 5. Public Information Services . 5.(a)- pass; 5.(b)- pass - the Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I would like to know whether in fact thi s branch was involved in producing tap e, audio or photographic materia l that normally would be produced by the media for some type of press coverage or media coverage?

Does it normally do that or does it produce material which the media can have access to, but it doesn't specifically develop programs for the media? MR. McGILL: I am advised, Mr. Chairman , that two years ago this information branch did do some production of programs for the department of agricu lture , but this in recent months has not been an activity undertaken by the Information Services . MR.

PARASIUK: So it did some material for the Department of Agriculture The Department of Agriculture had some long experience - yes, has been involved for a long time in producing programs for public consumption I think through the CBC and other stations, as is the Department of Education, but other than that , I don 't think this branch does provide any leg work for the media . The reason why I'm asking the question , Mr. Chairman , is that the TaskForce Report says that this 3190

- Monday, June 5, 1978 branch is producing tap e, audio or photographic material that normally would be produced by the media . It then goes on to say that there somehow should be some reduction if the branch didn't do this anymore. I'm not aware of the branch doing anything special in producing tap e, audio or photographic material that normally would be produced by the media . Now, if I'm mistaken in that respect , perhaps the Minister can tell me - that's why I'm asking the question , whether it in fact is producing any such material that the Task Force claims it is. MR.

McGILL: Well , we are getting back into an area of . . . MR. PARASIUK: No, it has nothing to do with the recommendation , it has to do with a matter of fact. MR. McGILL: Well , then I can just merely say that the information I have is that some work of this type was done approximately two years ago , producing video and tapes that could be used by the media . This has not been done during the last 12 months, not of that particular concern. MR.

PARASIUK: Okay , so that means then that my understanding, and the Minister 's understanding is correct , and I assume then that the Task Force didn 't, as they haven 't with a number of other departments, consult in that deep a manner with the department itself to find out the correct facts before they put mate rial into a public document which is incorrect factually . Therefore, since this branch is providing a normal on-go ing service, does it expect to get into the field of producing tape , audio, photographic material that normally would be produced by the media? Does it expect to get into that field? MR.

McGILL: We would see no advantage to producing material of that type, that as you say, would normally be produced by the media . We would not want to usurp the function of the media and their financial responsibility for that and transfer it to . . . MR. PARASIUK: So, none of the money requested in Resolution 34 then is foreseen to be used for the purposes of producing tape , audio or photograph ic material that would normally be produced by the media. You are going to carry on your normal job as you have in the past. You don 't foresee any great changes.

So, this is what the Estimate is for , just the normal on-going pass function , and I guess it will be a continuing function of information services as described on No. 5 I guess , appropriation No. 5. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , we would exercise our normal cautious and careful expenditure of the taxpayers ' money , and permit the media to pay for those things which they normally would pay for . MR. PARASIUK: Yes. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I wondered, under this section, last year I asked the former Minister of Consumer Affairs, approximately is this the area that covers government photographs being taken?

Is this the area? MR. McGILL: That is coriect. MR. WILSON: Last year - I stand to be corrected - it seemed to me that the government photographers had taken something like 40,000 photographs and in light of the Member for Transcona , I almost rose on a point of privilege when he said the Task Force is incorrect. I suggest that the Task Force is in many areas exceptionally correct in their findings and it would seem to me that 1 possibly, and Public Accounts , can look at some of these photographs and say, "Was this exercise necessary?

" Because I went over to investigate the Member for Elmwood and found that he had taken an excess of pictures of himself and it seemed to me that in many cases pictures of hockey teams from Elmwood and pictures of paintings and pictures of the Member for Burrows getting his sketch done at the Sketch Club; these all seemed to me to have absolutely no bearing on Public Information Services . In other words, what I am saying is that the time possibly has arrived, in a period of restraint, where we should ask, would the media buy this picture , would you pay to have this picture developed?

What I am possibly suggesting is maybe the Minister would like to indicate that maybe this year only 30,000 pictures will be taken rather than 40,000 because it seems to me that I was shocked when I looked at the degree of picture taking under the former government who said that they stood 3191

Monday, June 5, 1978 for restraint and for helping the little guy out. If the media is paying for these, that's fine, but if the taxpayer is paying for them to the tune of $424,100, then as a member of Public Accounts , I would hope that the Cabinet would look at cutting back on the number of pictures being taken. I especially quarrel with members of the Treasury Bench of the former NDP Government who seemed to be almost insisting that their pictures be taken to a degree that bordered on conceit. 1 really will intend to bring this forward in Public Accounts but I wanted to put it on the record , if it is under this

section , that I am advocating a reduction in the amount of pictures being taken . I might say that during the session , I would hope that the Public Information Services, and I don't want to be too thrifty, but it seems to me I would better have my Public Information Services' document during the session left in my box rather than delivered three of four days late by our very questionable Post Office. I just draw that for the members' attention.

Many of these have to go out to far-reaching points in the country and it would seem to me that during the session, the Information Services' bulletins could be left in the Legislature and put some of our messengers to work delivering them to the individual MLAs . MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Wolsele y has mentioned the number of photographs taken last year. My information is that there were 41,800 prints made, but that of course is not anywhere near the number of actual work orders.

There might be a number of prints made of one particular photograph that was taken, and these are of course for a variety of reasons. The Information Services Act says the photographer is for the Fire Commissioner's office, for instance, for the Archives , for the records , for every department of government , and also for insurance purposes, many photographs are required. So while the number of prints is quite impressive, the number of work orders that would involve would be considerably less.

For instance, the Department of Continuing Education in one work order asked for a series of pictures showing classroom, workshop , and laboratory activities together with outside shots of the building. There were shots taken at three Community Colleges for advertising in brochures . So this is the function , then, and while there may be pictures taken of individuals and so forth, I would suspect that the major portion of it is in connection with these other continuing responsibilities to provide a photograp hic record of various types of departmental responsibility . MR.

WILSON: Then is the Minister suggesting that future policies might indicate that even though there were 41,800 prints taken, that if a particular member - like I had to do on City Council - if I was at the opening of a community club and a photographer was handy, I would then visit, in this case the Norquay Building , and pick out one of the prints and pay for it myself . Is this the general practice?

What I am suggesting is that it would seem to me that if an MLA knew that the government was taking 41,000 prints and he attended the opening of a particular power plant in the north , I might want a particular print of that because the expense of my going up there , I think this could be an invaluable service from the point of view of if MLAs could buy these prints, then that would be a distinct advantage.

The thing that I took exception to, and as a member of Public Accounts it is my responsibility to examine the expenditures of the former government - unfortunately the Member for Elmwood raised a little bit of the inquisitive nature of myself and I decided to look up some of the pictures that he had taken. I found that some of them were absolutely so far removed from government activity that I wonder who monitors what is a gove rnment activity?

I am suggesting - I know the Minister is very busy - but I am suggesting some time he might want to apprise himself of the terms of reference of the government photographers . I appreciate the fellow is up against - possibly in the case of the former NDP Government - he is up against a peculiar individual who wants his picture taken all the time, and he is up against not wanting to tell the boss, well, I'm under a restraint, I can only take three rolls of film .

So I would be intereste d, as a member of Public Accounts, for the future expenditures of government, under what obligation is the photographer to try to give the taxpayers full value for their money? I understand that those photographs of the Legislative Assembly were a complete bust because of the nature of the Chamber and that they may have to be redone again with rented or borrowed equipment.

I am suggesting that civil servants should be given the freedom to speak up, and that if the workmanship may not come out in a particular fashion which may be acceptable to members , then maybe they shouldn't proceed with the exercise in the first place.

So I'll wrap it up by just saying that under the former government, if they had 40,000 prints taken, 1 can assure the Minister that my limited investigation with the time at my disposal , has indicated that many of these photographs leave a lot to be desired and many of them certainly fall under the question of what do the government photographers have to take pictures of. Are they at the beck and call of a particular Minister or MLA or at their own discretion as to what is good taste? 3192 :

·:1 Monday, June 5, 1978 MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the department responds to Ministers on official business if they request a photographic record. That is the extent of the involvement of the department in terms of individuals and their activities . The member mentioned the possibility that he might want a print of a particular occasion or event at some northern Manitoba point or wherever, those would be supplied to an MLA if he asked for one print of that for his own purposes .

I believe they are available from time to time to the public on a repayment basis, additional prints of photographs that have been taken. In general terms, the policy is for photographs to be taken at the request of a Minister when he is on official government business. MR. WILSON: What would the safeguard be for the taxpayers of Manitoba - for instance, I'll take the Member for Elmwood . In the Publ ic Works file there are many interesting pictures there, but the ones of the Elmwood hockey team . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona on a point of order . MR.

PARASIUK: I would like to ask the member where he got access to files in the Department of Public Works? Are these files that are contained in the Ministry of Consumer Affairs and Internal Services? If he did get access to these files, how did he get access to them? We received a letter last fall from the Minister of Finance indicating that the Member for Wolseley had illegally broken into files last year and he said that he had sent out a letter to everyone indicating -(lnterjection) That's pretty accurate , when that guy does that. I would like to know whether in fact he is continuing to do that.

I would like to know what he has broken into to get access to those files .? MR. CHAIRMAN: On the same point of order, the Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I think the Member for Transcona again is chasing windmills and acting like Don Quixote because absolutely I take exception to the words " break in." I asked for permission to look at a particular thing. For instance , I can't go around here and examine 200 oil paintings. I'll tell you what, Nixon didn 't destroy the tapes and the Member for Elmwood didn 't destroy his photographs, so I have a right to look at them . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona .

MR. PARASIUK: I would like the Minister to confirm who gave access to the Member for Wolseley to look into departmental files? Now, if that has been given, fine, but I would like to know whether in fact we will now have the right to look at the Premier's files with respect to his publicity . I understand that the Information Services Branch arranges the press conferences for the Premier . There is a cost attached to that. Are we going to be provided those types of files; are we going to be provided all of the personal photographs that the Premier takes? I would just like to know what rules we are operating under.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister . MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, to the Member for Transcona, it has been regular policy of the Information Services Branch to permit members to look at negatives that are filed by a department. There are no departmental files that are available for perusal by people without special authority . So the Member for Wolseley may be referring to filed negatives under a particular department and I believe those are and have been available for perusal by Members of the Legislature. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, I would respectfully suggest that the Member for Transcona is equally a member of Public Accounts. I realize he wants to come to the defence because next year . This year we are dealing with the - just to wrap this up - this year we are dealing ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I would ask the Member for Wolseley if he would stay to the Public Information Services . MR. WILSON: All right . Under the Public Information Services, there are 41,800 prints taken .

I simply ask the Minister if he can consider cutting that number down , based on the fact that my limited perusal as a member of Public Accounts examining the expenditures of the former government would indicate that some of these pictures left something to be desired as to importance to the taxpayers 3193

Monday, June 5, 1978 of Manitoba , and also if some of them didn't border on excessive use by former members of the NDP and the use of photographs been taken. I will be very kind, because I simply say that if one who is a member of Public Accounts knows that Public Information Services has 41,000 prints ... As a member of City Council , I can go to the Mayor's office any time and say, "What did you have taken of the Pan Am Games?" - he will haul out a drawer with the Pan Am Games and I can look at the negatives or whatever that happen to be under Pan Am Games.

So if the Member for Transcona wants to look at Premier Schreyer when he was at the power dam in Gillam, I am sure that that reques t would be adhered to. I stand to be corrected . MR. McGILL: Well, the member requests that we exercise some restraint in the number of prints that are produced annually . I would tell him that in the last seven, eight months, there has been some examination of this and there is some reduction now under way in the number of prints and this is a matter of judgment as to which events are a merit in terms of importance, a photographic record being kept .

Again, we have simply asked the department to use careful judgment in the numbe r of events that are covered . Certainly this is under consideration . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona on the Public Information Services. MR. PASIUK: Yes, I'd like to know whether in fact the Minister is going to stop sending us press releases to our home or whether he's just going to send them around to our pigeon-holes here in the Legislative Building . It was a question that was asked specifically by the Member for Wolseley , is the Minister going to do that? MR. McGILL: Well, Mr.

Chairman , it's a matter of complexity as to changes and modification of the mailing systems . When changes are made responses are always, or frequently received by people who feel abused by the fact that they are not receiving information that they previously received . We try to be as careful and economical in the volume of bulletins that are sent out, but at the same time we would like to provide those to people who use them regul arly and who have become accustomed to this kind of regular information on government programs . MR. PARASIUK: I can't agree with the Minister 's answer .

Does the branch still intend to put on organized and coordinated the press conferences for the Premier of Manitoba, or is it the intention to discontinue those and just leave it uncoordinated? MR. McGILL: I think the policy that has been in effect for 20 years or so in that respect will continue, that the press conferences will be arranged and carried out with some supervision by tue Information Services . MR. PASIUK: Again I agree with the Ministe r, I think that's a wise decision and I'm glad he's not following some of the advice of some of his colleagues.

Is it the intent of the branch to still send out photographers if there is say, the opening of a power dam in northern Manitoba, or you name it, where there may be an o.-bsense of photographers locally to provi de that type of photographic coverage or other type of media coverage for this event? This is usually done by Information Services and brought back so that people will have access to it.

I think that the numb er of shots or negatives that are taken is usually left to the professional judgment of the photographer If anyone's been involved as I think you have, as the Minister has, and as I have, in a political campaign where people want to get photographs for a pamphlet , or what have you , you're going to find that there are tons of negatives that are taken , unfortunately, and that's sometimes frustra ting. But at the same time I think that's left to the professional judgment of the photographer because you can have a sun spoil , you can have a number of things which could hurt that negative.

You might come back from Sundance or from Limestone, after having sent a photographer up there and if he only takes two negatives you're in tough shape if they haven't turned out. So that's why a photographer tends to take a number of negatives and I think that's done professionally. Does the Minister intend to continue that sane and rational policy , or will he listen to the other advice of the Member for Wolseley? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I just repeat that the policy to respond to a request of a Minister who is, in his judgment , feels that a photographic record should be kept of his government activities , these requests will be responded to, this policy has not been changed. As to the number of shots taken, we rely on the skill of the photographer invoived aJ'!d the greater the skill probably the more economical he can be in terms of numbers. This will be done as economically as possible , where it may be cheaper to use photographic skills that are on site.

We may be able to achieve what records we feel need to be kept by contracting for them, but otherwise 3194 ..

Monday, June 5, 1978 the specific request of the Minister to cover government business or government activities, will be responded to. MR. PARASIUK: Well , I'd like to thank the Minster for his comments because often when people come along and try and take, what I'd call, cheap shots at past Ministers because they think it's an easy and quick thing to do , what they' re really doing is if they knew their facts , they aren't knocking the past Minister , they 're knocking the technical staff involved.

I know that in the case of Public Information Services that a full set of professional judgments have been made in the past. - (Interjection)- I would expect that the same quality of professional judgments will be made in the future . Those professional judgments are sane, they 're defensible and I commend this branch for its past work and I assume it will be doing good quality work in the future . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(b)-pass . Resolution 34: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $424,100 -pass. Resolution 35, Item 6 on page 20, Public Utilities Board, 6.(a) - the Member for St. Vital.

MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I just had a question too for the Minister on the Public Utilities Board . I note from the board's annual report , and it's on a calendar year basis, that there is a fairly substantial return to the board and I presume that these are fees charged to applying agencies to the board . Can the Minister confirm this please? MR. McGILL: I'm advised that this recovery is, in part, in the nature of fees and in part a charge-back of costs of conducting the hearings during the research that is involved in hearing the case at that level. MR.

WALDING: Since the annual report was on a calendar year basis and this amount for the last year of $339 ,000 is on a fiscal year basis , can the Miniser assure the committee that the amounts collected by the board covered the appropriation that we approved for last year? MR. McGILL: Well, it's difficult under the terms that the board operates and the length of some of the hearings on the extension of one hearing from one year to another , either fiscal or calendar , to determine and to exactly have a complete recovery in each period.

But the intent and objective, of course , is to buy fees and charge -back of costs to recover as much as possible of the total expense of providing this service by the Public Utilities Board. I'm advised that approximately 94 percent of non-salary costs are now recovered, which is a pretty reasonable recovery. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , what does the Minister mean by salary costs in there? Is he talking about the salaries of the board itself, or its staff ? MR. McGILL: I'm talking about the board staff only in terms of salary . Non-salary recoveries amount to 94 percent. In other words , Mr.

Chairman , the board is not self-supporting, but it does recover a majority of the non-salary costs associated . MR. WALDING: Then I would ask the Minister, is it a matter of policy that the board is not self-supporting8 ? Is consideration being given to prorating salary costs to applicant agencies to the board? MR. McGILL: Well, I'm advised that some salary costs are pro8rated . But there , in some instances, is not a specific agency to which salary costs could be allocated and so there will be and continues to be a non-recovery in terms of salaries.

There's not always a precise situation in every hearing where one particular agency is responsible for or should be charged with all of the costs including salaries that are involved . MR. WALDING: One further question , Mr. Chairman, and the Minister might want to take it as notice, but could the Minister tell me what the charge was to the Manitoba Telephone System by the Public Utilities Board in respect to its application for a rate revision about 18 months ago? MR. McGILL: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that that information is not immediately available, that that can be provided .

It occurred and it was undertaken prior to the time of the present Chairman on the Public Utilities Board, so this would require some research . 3195

Monday, June 5, 1978 MR. WALDING: I realize, Mr. Chairman , that it was a very lengthy procedure. There was a number of hearings and then an interim award and then further investigation hearings and a final award , and I suppose there was a certain time after that before the final costs could be assessed, but if I could get an idea of the final figure at some time, please . MR. McGILL: Yes, we'll attempt to get that . I'm sure we can obtain the information. MR. WALDING: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)-pass - the Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: I'd like to ask the Minister whether it's his intention to insure that consumer groups appearing before the Public Utilities Board have adequate counsel ? MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman, some groups do appear before the Public Utilities Board, I am told, and if there is some lack of experience on the part of the groups or their counsel, that the board itself will endeavour to assist them in presenting their arguments and their cases adequately to the board. MR. PARASIUK: Specifically, Mr.

Chairman, when Hydro appeared before the Public Utilities Board , there was a consumer group that had legal counsel there and legal counsel was provided by Legal Aid , and I wasn't at the hearings myself, I just read the press reports on this matter. But it strikes me that Hydro itself had legal counsel. I think the Public Utilities Board had legal counsel. Unless the press reports were biased, it would appear to me from the press reports that the Legal Aid lawyer representing the consumer group actually did provide a useful function in the deliberations. Now, I'm just taking this from the press reports.

I wasn't there personally to make any judgments on it and I don't want to put the staff in the position of having to make judgments on it, but in the light of the past experience in this respect, does the Minister think that it is useful to have consumer groups, if they wish to go before Public Utilities Board hearings, with respect to changes in utility pricing especially.

If they are in a position whereby they can't afford adequate legal counsel, would the Minister advise the Attorney-General that he should ensure that Legal Aid would be made available to these groups if in fact they qualify for Legal Aid in income terms? MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am sure that if they indeed qualify under the present arrangements for Legal Aid assitance , that that would be provided consistent with the ability of the Department of the Attorney-General to respond to the request.

But certainly, as you point out, in this instance there was assistance given to the consumer group that appeared before the Public Utilities Board and I believe that it was Legal Aid assistance . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman, the reason why I raise this particular issue is that there has been some talk about preventing Legal Aid lawyers from providing this type of assistance to consumer groups. I gather from the Attorney-General that it is left to the discretion of the Executive Director as to whether Legal Aid assistance to consumer groups appea ring before a public tribunal will in fact be provided .

Is that correct? Am I correct in saying that; I'm asking the Attorney-General. The reason why I am raising that, Mr. Chairman, is that the Executive Director of Legal Aid may in fact have budgetary problems or a whole set of pressures on him to possibly cut back his budget and he may in fact not be that well-acquainted with the particular case coming before, say, the Public Utilities Board .

In those instances, does the Minister intend to rely solely upon the judgment of the Executive Director of Legal Aid in determining whether in fact a consumer group will have adequate legal counsel , or will he in fact turn to the department for some advice in this respect because I think there might be some instances where I think it probably would be a good thing to have a consumer group represented by adequate legal counsel. I would hope that the Minister of Consumer Affairs in this sense just won 't sort of pass the buck and leave it solely to the discretion of the Executive Director of Legal Aid .

I would hope that he would take a look at these decisions, review them and determine whether in fact - or advise the Minister as to whether in fact he thinks these consumer groups , in a particular hearing, should have representation . I know this is somewhat hypothetical but at the same time I think the situation may arise in the future and I would hope that if that does arise, some of us probably will be contacting not only the Attorney-General but the Consumer Affairs Minister as well. So I am just raising this possibility with the Minister.

I know that there is concern and yet it strikes me that the performance of the Legal Aid lawyers to date before these tribunals has been quite good. But, again , I can only make my judgments from the press reports. Does he have any comment on this particular matter , which I think is an issue? 3196 =

-' Monday, June 5, 1978 MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the matter of the policy of Legal Aid with respect to providing such assistance is not my responsibility so when he suggests that he hopes I won't pass the buck in this respect, I don't think it is properly described as passing the buck when one clearly makes it known that the matter of the terms of reference of the Legal Aid Department are under the Attorney-General. On that policy will depend largely the availability and on the numbers of staff available. Largely it will depend on what responses are made to consumer groups who request such aid.

But in instances, as I mentioned before, where no professional assistance is being demonstrated by groups appearing before the Public Utilities Board, the staff of the board has been helpful in advising them how they may best present their arguments before the board and in helping them through that problem . But , again, as to the assistance that Legal Aid may be granted, I am not going to presume to comment on what should be the policy of the Attorney-General in respect to the provision of Legal Aid for groups which apply . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman , I would like to apologize to the Minister if in fact I gave him the impression that I was criticiz ing him for not making decisions outside of his jurisdiction. I didn't explain myself properly when I made my point. If the Minister is saying, and if the Minister of Consumer Affairs is saying that the consumers of Manitoba, or consumer groups appearing before tribunals , will indeed have adequate representation or counsel , then the Minister can try and ensure that that is done through Legal Aid .

If it is not done through Legal Aid , the Minister still has the power to provide that counsel directly , although I assume it might be more efficient to do so through the Legal Aid system , but presumably the Minister would be in a position to provide that assistance directly to a group if the Executive Director of Legal Aid decided, for whatever reason, that Legal Aid would not be providing legal counsel to a consumer group . Isn't that correct, you still do have the power to provide direct legal counsel to a consumer group appearing before a tribunal? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , the member may presume what he feels he would like to presume in this respect. I can tell him that I have no intention of setting up another Department of Legal Aid until much greater need for such a move would have to be demonstrated. I think we have a Department of Legal Aid and it would be normal to expect services to be provided, as required, through that agency and not to set up for each department its own particular Legal Aid branch. MR.

PARASIUK: Okay, so what you are saying, then, that you rely in the first instance on Legal Aid to provide counsel and you'll cross the bridge when you come to it if Legal Aid doesn't provide the counsel but we don 't have the experience to go on.

I'll leave it at that , and I'm just saying that I might come back to it some time in the future on this particular issue. ' While I have the floor, I wanted to raise a fairly trivial issue regarding the Public Utilities Board - I know that utilities appear before it for rate increases - I'm wondering whether in fact the question of - it is a very minor question but it is a ticklish question - of the rental of equipment by utilities to individuals comes under the Public Utilities Board as well. Specifically, the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company rents out home heaters.

People pay monthly rental on their home heaters and they assume that they have a repair warranty on that home heater - or the water heater, the hot water heater - for as long as they are paying rent. I have tried to do some exploration with respect to a couple of constituency complaints. It appears that there is a 10-year warranty and that somehow after that, the warranty doesn 't seem to hold true.

I will be pursuing this further myself , but I am just going to ask the chairman of the Utilities Board , indirectly , through the Minister, whether in fact this is something that does fall under the Public Utilities Board or is it something removed from the aegis of the Public Utilities Board and is something to be bargained between the utility and the individual in terms of rates of rental of hot water heaters, warranty provisions, repair provisions and that type of thing, new equipment? MR.

McGILL: Well, I gather from the chairman that the question is a complicated one and the problems immediately surfacing relate to warranties on these tanks by the manufacturers to the utilities providing them . The question now has come down perhaps to a lack of time in the warranty that will be guaranteed by the manufacturer and in turn the then inability of the public utility to take on that kind of a warranty claim that would be necessary in terms of rental rates of these.

I am further advised and reminded that of course the manufacturer is quite frequently beyond the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Board so it becomes a .rather tenuous kind of control situation. MR. PARASIUK: I'll pass on that and maybe I'll deal directly with either the chairman or some 3197

Monday, June 5, 1978 staff that he might designate , because it is a technical matter , but I am not in any position to offer any advice at all to the constituent who comes before me somewhat confused and somewhat perplexed, because it is a complicated area and I would like to get my facts down completely correctly before I give him any advice . MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , perhaps a written request to the Board would receive a response by the engineering advice they have available. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk. MR.

PAWLEY: The questions that I was going to ask have been pretty well covered by the Membe r for Transcona . MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)-pass - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I wanted to ask the Minister, at some time if he could give me an explanation, because I don't understand the situation fully, of the application by the cable companies to the Public Utilities Board . I understand that the government made a policy decision in the matter of a referral there .

I note that MTS will be back before the Public Utilities Committee tomorrow morning and if the Minister wishes to defer the matter until then when the cable experts are present , I will bring up the matter again . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , it might be inappropriate at this time to get into this. I am advised that the matter is still before the courts and it might be somewha t inappropriate to discuss the matter in any detail at this time .

The courts did rule; I unde rstand an appeal is in progress and so I would hesitate, because of it beingsub judice to comment on the matter at this time . MR. WALDING: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)-pass ; 6(b)-pass. Resolution 35: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $385,500-pass. Item 7 - Queen's Printer: ?.(a)-pass ; 7.(b)(1)- pass; 7.(b)(2)-pass; 7.(b)(3)-pass; ?.(c)-pass; 7.(d)(1)-pass ; 7.(d)(2)-pass ; 7.(d)(3)-pass ; 7.(d)(4)-pass? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister would explain the reduct ion in that last item, as to what has taken place . ~ MR.

CHAIRMAN: On 7.(d)(4)? MR. USKIW: Yes, a $300,000 reduction . Is there anything in particular? MR. CHAIRMAN: On the Recoverables , the Minister . MR. McGILL: This is a matter of recoverable and is made up of a variety of some reductions MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 36, Queen's Printer : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $214,800 - pass. Item 8. Rent Stabilization, 8.(a) - the Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , I wasn't in the House on Thursday , June 1st, when the whole mattei of the dismissal of Vivian Rosenberg was discussed.

I have read through Hansard, and I find that the explanation is not that clear from the Minister and I would like to ask him some questions on this matter . He indicates in a sense, Miss Rosenberg, is over-qualified for the position and that somehow that task can now be performed by someone who has less experience and less authority at present than she herself has.

Now, I don 't think that's true in the light of facts , and the facts are that there is a phase four to the rent review program, that that phase may be superseded by a phase five because I don 't know if it is definite that phase four is the last phase completely of that particular program. The program is still , I think, in its very early stages . I think there's a lot of flushing out of the phase four program to be done. I can recall from personal experience that Mrs . Rosenberg proved very adept at flushing out the original Rent Stabilization Program, that she 3198

Monday, June 5, 1978 built up the staff, that she's administered it, that there have been some reductions in the staff. The Minister points out that the staff has performed more efficiently by phasing work through the peaks and valleys, or phasing staff through the peaks and valleys of work .

It strikes me that all that reflects well on the director, and I find it rather strange that the reward for a director who has performed his or her task very well, and who is on a leave of absence from a permanent Civil Service position, would be to be laid off and put in some type of re-deployment pool that hasn't worked particularly well for other people. It strikes me that this is not going to do the morale of the Civil Service any good. I don't think it's going to do the morale of the program any good and I think it also puts the entire program in some grave jeopardy .

So, I would ask for an explanation of, in a sense the termination of Mrs . Rosenberg, and an explanation as to what the future plans are for her because I think that he does have some responsibility for her in that I think that she has been a trusted and a valuable staff member of his over the last seven months . MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, we had many questions in respect to the termination of this contract, or the non-renewable of the contract. It was a matter of advising Mrs. Rosenberg that the contract would not be renewed at the conclusion of the current period.

I tried to explain to the House that in reviewing the function and the role of the department for phase four and the kinds of cases that would likely constitute the major role of the review agency and the stabilization board, we undertook to simply review the structure of the review agency, and we noted that there were three senior people and a staff of approximately 20 people who were in the review agency. As the member points out, Mrs .

Rosenberg was involved in the organization and starting up of this branch, because she had particular qualifications in respect to organization, and I'm advised , although it was not in my period of experience, that she responded to this responsibility and the starting up period was accomplished and the recruiting and the bringing together of people to operate this revew agency was done by Mrs. Rosenberg .

In the periods now coming up, that of course, skill in terms of organizing and so forth, is not so much in demand as is the perhaps accounting and background in economic matters, so, we felt that we could perhaps best respond to what we considered to be the kind of caseload for the future by retaining people with more those qualifications than the executive skills which Mrs. Rosenberg brought to the early period of the rent review agency . I have communicated that to Mrs.

Rosenberg, and we hope that there will be alternative opportunities for her to bring those skills to bear, but it was essentially a matter of employing and utilizing the people available in the areas which they would likely be in the greatest demand . We are through the organizing part, we are into the routine of handling complaints and we look to now the reorganized structure to respond adequately to that requirement.

We are looking too at the Stabilization Board to determine if some change could be made there to perhaps bring in some experience and knowledge in landlord-tenant relationships, anticipating that there may be more matters involving the landlord and the tenant, and the part of the program that now involves the decontrol of rental accommodation that is voluntarily vacated. So, these are matters which my department has had under review, and we are taking what steps we feel are best designed to respond to the future requirements in that area . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman , the organizational tasks required with the Rent Stabilization Program were completed about a year or a year and a half ago. So that means that Mrs. Rosenberg has been running the operations of the Rent Stabilization Program in a way in which has been satisfactory to the people that advise the Minister, and the Minister confirmed that in his previous comments . That means then, there's a hole in the Minister's explanation as to why, in fact, she is being terminated after having performed her job very very well.

The task that 's at hand is one of running an organziation of 20 people at present, I assume, and I'll be asking some questions in detail about the complement of the Rent Stabilization Program, organizing that and organizing the various procedures that the Rent Stabilization Program requires. Now that requires a skill in management. Now, we have people who have background in economic matters . The Minister indicated earlier today that the people in the Research and Planning Branch are involved in part with the work of the Rent Stabilization Program.

You undoubtedly have accountants who are involved in the program itself, some of the board members had backgrounds in economics and accounting . I'm not sure whether in fact the board membership has been changed. I've not seen anything in this respect, but maybe they have, but I see no valid reason for terminating Mrs . Rosenberg.

The Minister has obviously the final decision there, but I think in so doing he should do so in a fair manner, and a mannei that's consistent with, I think, gen.erally accepted public and private administration, and it strikes me that what you don 't do is take someone who has done a job very successfully, and in a sense fire her, because although the contract runs out on June 30th , the program is continuing and therefore it would be logical to assume 999 times out of 1,000 that the 3199

Monday, June 5, 1978 contract would be renewed . This is that 1 in 1,000 times when it isn't, and I think that the Minister hasn't provided a sufficient explanation for that termination. He also hasn't indicated what will be done with respect to the re-deployment of Mrs. Rosenberg. Will she be re-deployed within his department? Is the intent to re-deploy her in your department? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , that 's a matter for the re-deployment agency to deal with and find, if there is indeed some opportunity that Mrs . Rosenberg would be interested in and where this might best be arranged.

I simply would like to review again for the Member for Transcona the explanation of the failure and the decision not to renew Mrs. Rosenberg 's contract. We have some 20 people in the department with three senior people which appeared to be rather excessive in terms of the number of senior people in the review agency , and it was a matter of determining which skills represented by those three people would be of the greatest benefit to the operation of the department in the future. The work that Mrs.

Rosenberg did in the organization in starting up has been recognized, and I'm advised that this was a particular skill that she demonstrated in this work. However, the continuing role we foresee and the kind of cases that will likely be coming for the department and the review agency to deal with , probably require the skills as represented by the other two senior members more than they do those possessed by Mrs. Rosenberg . I can't be any more explicit or precise in the explanation for the decision than that , and I hope that that gives the answer that the member is seeking. MR.

PARASIUK: I guess there 's just a very definite difference in attitudes between myself and the Minister as to how, in fact, efficient staff are in a sense rewarded and penalized within the Civil Service , and how efficient staff are re-deployed and how one develops morale, but I still wonder whether , in fact, the skills of Mrs . Rosenberg still aren't required. You have a situation where you have 20 people now, you have indicated that you may, in fact , be hiring more as the workload increases in terms of peak workload. That requires the ability to expand and contract staff.

She has performed that ability and the other two senior people in that organization haven't. She has performed the management tasks . She has built the team . She in fact would be the person to continue doing that .

If rent stabilization or the rent control of group is going to act in an aggressive manner, if in fact, it's going to act in a very passive manner and not do the types of things that it was doing last year and the year before , then I can see the need possibly to consolidate your staff, because that body will not do anything, and it 's a paper organization so we get rid of the Executive Director now and phase out the other staff over a period of time and be left with a shell.

Because I think that I have some more questions to ask regarding the specific operations but I do find that the explanation in my opinion - and it's my opinion versus his opinion - is not sufficient for the termination of Mrs . Rosenberg . I would like to ask some questions about the board composition. Who now is on the board of the Rent Stabilization Board?! MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that there is no change in the board as it has been constitu ted with the exception of the one member who has been unable to act by reasons of health, but we are considering the function and the make-up of the board, but no recommendation has been made to Cabinet in that respect at this time . MR. PARASIUK: Was the board consulted regarding the termination of Mrs . Rosenberg, or was that a departmental or Ministerial action? MR.

McGILL: Well this was a departmental , as a result of a departmental review of the whole operation of the Rent Stabilization Board and the Review Agency and the projection of the future work activity and the kind of case-load that they would have to deal with. MR. PARASIUK: You said the present staff complement is 20 people. What was the staff complement last year at this time? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , the contract staff was cut from 35 positions to 22 positions.

The current staff of 20 contract people plus two vacancies which exist at the moment and these will be filled when contracts are renewed at the end of June, so it will bring it back to approximately 22. I'm not sure that these two will be filled immediately, but depending on the volume of work, and this is the nature of the agency that it is by contract, able to respond in relatively short order to changing work loads as they are experienced. MR. PARASIUK: I just forgot one question with respect to Mrs . Rosenberg. She was filling a permanent position and then she was taken on contract for this particular task .

Was her permanent 3200

Monday, June 5, 1978 position abolished? MR. McGILL: I'm not able to respond in any precise way to that. That is a Management Committee area and that matter is probably one that has been under review and under some investigation. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , I beg to differ with the Minister on this . The position would, I think, be with the department and my understanding is that the position was transferred to the department last year - last fiscal year .

Therefore , it exists with the department and it's not for the Management Committee to abolish that position , it's for the depa rtment to make some decision with respect to that position. And I hope they do so with some care in that they would be setting horrible precedents with respect to people taking a leave of absence to perform another task; for people taking a leave of absence to work for another department on a special assignmentS people taking a leave of absence to work for a Crown corporationS people in a C ; rown corporation taking a leave of absence to work for the national telecommunications group .

I know that people from the Manitoba Telephone System, for example, do that. They take an assignment in Ottawa for a couple of years. Well, I would hate for these people to take the assignment in Ottawa for a couple of years fearing that when they return they will have no position to return too. That's happened in other instances, as well. People have taken one or two-year leave of absences for educational leave, knowing that they have a permanent position to come back to because they 've been civil servants for a long period of time .

That 's normally accepted; that's accepted as normal practice in public administration . It used to be accepted as normal practice in the provincial administration of Manitoba . It certainly is accepted as normal practice in other provincial jurisdictions and certainly is accepted by the Federal Government. You have people who take a years leave of absence and they go work for the CEDA or for External Affairs with developing countries, assuming that they will be coming back to fill a position .

So peop le then fill the positions , or the vacancy caused by the leave of absence, with a oneSyear term contract , so that the person taking on that job knows that it's a one-year job or .1' a two-year job , and it strikes me that that's the fairest way all around . " Well, now that seems to be changed and it's just not a Management Committee matter if that 's being changed . Surely the Minister is the employing authority in this instance and as the employing authority, he is responsible for the employment conditions . He is accountable, and I just can't see that it is being done by Management Committee per se.

It's something that the Minister surely should be aware of, because not only does he have that one staff person but it is assumed that he has a number of other staff as well . MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , I'm advised that with respect to Mrs. Rosenberg, her permanent position was under Executive Council and it was not transferred to the Department of Consumer Affairs . I think it was the pol icy at that time that there were to be no permanent employees in the Department of Rent Review, so these were non-peranent people who came to the Department of Consumer Affairs and the Rent Review Agenc .

And the position itself, if it indeed had permanent status was not transferred to . . . MR. PARASIUK: So that it still stays with Executive Council then; is that what you're saying? Okay , I will check with the Executive Council on that through other means - guestion period or when the Estimates of Executive Council come before this committee .

Twenty people now, 35 people last year, you aren 't sure whether you will be increasing the staff complement as the work-load increases, as it probably will when people try and understand and try and determine whether in fact the rent increase should be 6 percent , 5 '12 percent, or 5 percent . Because everything isn't cut and dried and can 't be dealt with in a onepage - statement , as was issued by the Minister.

I've had many people ask a whole set of questions regarding the Rent Review Program , and I've passed these people on to what I thought was the capable qualified Exective Director of the Rent Stabilization Program. I now find that I don 't know who I'm sending these inquiries on to. Who is going to replace Mrs . Rosenberg? MR. McGILL: There will be no replacement for Mrs. Rosenberg as Executive Director. That position has been eliminated. MR. PARASIUK: Who is the number one administrative person in the Rent Stabilization Program?

Because ultimately if people are making inquiries, they should talk to someone who is designated as the person responsible for the program. · MR. McGILL: That's Mr. Julius. 3201

Monday, June 5, 1978 MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Julius, so he will be the MR. McGILL: Senior Rent Review Officer and Officer Manager. MR. PARASIUK: What will the relationship be with the Rentalsman? You made some reference to the 8entalsman in your questions in the House on June 1st. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, we're reviewing the possibility of using the experience and talents of the Rentalsman in connection with the Rent Stabilization Board and also to bring to the area of rent review some of his experience in landlord-tenant relationships.

This has not been implemented, but that is the planning at this the moment and this recommendation will be taken toExective Council in due course. MR. PARASIUK: Well, Mr. Chairman , I can see the need for close liaison between the Rent Stabilization Program and the Rentalsman. I predict that the type of program announced by the Minister will put a lot of pressure on the Rentalsman. I think that the rates of 5 and 6 percent are just. I don't quarrel with those particular rates. The concern that I have relates to the loophole in the program whereby an apartment is decontrolled if someone voluntarily vacates it.

What I foresee is that you will have an apartment block of 5 units or 7 units or 8 units - 3 decontrolled, 5 not decontrolled. The rent levels in the 5 units will be far lower than the rent levels in the 3 decontrolled units. The experience in Alberta is such that they 've had some pretty large increases so that in the same block you will have possibly 3 units paying $40.00, $50.00, $60.00 a month more per rent.

Now I think you're putting a tremendous pressure on the landlord to try and get the other five units producing that extra $60.00 of rental revenue per month, because I think it's going to be horribly frustrating to the apartment block owner and the apartment block manager to see these different rents being paid for the units and I think, therefore, there are different ways in which pressure can be put on tenants.

I saw a CTV program on the news I guess last week with respect to Skyview Towers, and it was a bit ironic in a sense in that many of the tenants didn't feel that the landlord had in fact taken too much in rents even though the Rent Stabilization Board had ruled otherwise. I know that they dealt only with one case so I wasn't able to determine what the other people felt but the film clip itself showed pretty bad maintenance and the comment was, well, apart from some maintenance problems . . . But from what I saw on film , the maintenance problems were pretty severe in a fairly new block.

I mean broken windows that aren't cleane d up, to me, is a maintenance problem, especially if you might have children in that block . The windows looked dirty and the panes on the ground looked dirty which, to me anyway, indicated that they hadn 't been cleaned up for some time. Now, those are the types of problems which one only glimpses but what about the leaky faucet , what about the other problems of maintenance that just aren 't looked after?

What about problems of noisy children or noisy parties, or animals, or that whole set of areas where I think judgments are involved and where peop le probably live and let live under normal conditions but they don't live and let live under these types of conditions where there will be a tremendous financial pressure to try and get the higher rents . Now, I'm not saying that all landlords are going to do that but I do think that people do respond to financial stimuli and I think this is a very strong stimulus for some landlords.

I would think that the only people, then , who will be able to deal with this will be the rentalsman and I see that the Rentalsman's Office is basically the same as last year. I don't think there have been any great additions . From my experience in the past, I think the Rentalsman's Office was as busy as a Rentalsman's Office could be. I don't think it had the capacity to take on too many other functions. I think it was worked as hard as it could be worked in the past; I don't think it had any great free time at its disposal to do other tasks.

So I think that the program has some good features to it but I do think it has that one very large loophole through which a truck may or may not be driven .

I guess time will tell in that respect but I do think there will be tremendous pressures put on the Rentalsman and I don 't think that the Rentalsman has sufficient staff to deal with that because I don't think that the Rentalsman had sufficient staff in the past to deal with the task that the Rentalsman had to carry out, if the Rentalsman is going to carry out the fairly delicate task of landlord-tenant relations in a fairly diplomatic manner rather than doing it in a quicker but very bureaucratic manner of coming to a quick decision and not going through the process and dealing with both sides and giving them sufficient time to hear both sides of the argument.

I am wondering if the Minister had considered that problem that might arise in the Rent Stabilization Program if units within a particular block are decontrolled because people voluntarily 3202

Monday, June 5, 1978 vacate it? MR. McGILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have foreseen the situation where , by voluntary removal of a tenant , the unit becomes decontrol led provided other factors are complied with and they then would assume somewhat different rental levels than other units under control. But this cannot be considered unique to the forthcoming program; this already exists in a number of buildings where rents were at a different level when the retroactive legislation came into effect and caught some buildings with different situations and rent-up situations where they were attempting to rent MR.

PARASIUK: But they were all controlled in that block . MR. McGILL: But suddenly they were controlled , but at different levels, because they had been rented under dif

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-56b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 56b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8243776eb49a2a8826d1c62c7b1cbe33b8ee2cbc

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