Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 33 (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-33

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 33 • 1:30 p.m., Monday, April20, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN; Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Anhur- Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Ponage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norben St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupensland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River Charleswood Political AtTiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

18 35 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April20, 1998 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Priv atization Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of E. Strutinsky, E. Emberly, P. Chong and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of G. Pinlak, R. Paulhus and R.

Black and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. Mr. ClifEvans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, I would like to present the petition of R. Colliou, A. Trudeau and N. Gledhill and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services.

READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Priv atization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THA T the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THA T it is estimated that more than 1, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THA T under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THA T after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipp ed in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipp ed to the hospitals; and THA T people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THA T the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expens ive."; and THA T no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRA Y that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THA T the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals,· and

18 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1997 THA T it is estimated that more than 1,000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THA T under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THA T after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepa red food will be shipp ed in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipp ed to the hospitals; and THA T people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THA T the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THA T no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THA T the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THA T it is estimated that more than 1, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THA T under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THA T after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipp ed in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipp ed to the hospitals; and THA T people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THA T the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THA T no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services Madam Speaker: I have read the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a project in which it is closing hospital kitchens and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improve the quality of food but will cost hundreds of jobs to the provincial economy; and

Ap ril 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 37

WHEREAS on December 8 of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken breast from a chef flown in from Toronto for the occasion while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars being spent on questionable privatization projects; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the provincial government was forced to drop a similar privatization scheme involving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public; and

WHEREAS once again the provincial government without consultation has committed itself to a privatization project which will likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms Madam Speaker: I have read the petition of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the_petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a project in which it is closing hospital kitchens and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improve the quality of food but will cost hundreds of jobs to the provincial economy; and

WHEREAS on December 8 of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken breast from a chef flown in from Toronto for the occasion while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars being spent on questionable privatization projects; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the provincial government was forced to drop a similar privatization scheme involving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public; and

WHEREAS once again the provincial government without consultation has committed itself to a privatization project which will likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. THA T the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THA T it is estimated that more than 1, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and

1838 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1997 THA T under the terms of the contract, Ontario * (1 335) businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THA T qfter construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipp ed in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipp ed to the hospitals; and THA T people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THA T the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that.

"A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-ope ration (public sector) and privatization. Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THA T no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supply Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Supple mentary Information for Legislative Review relating to the 1998-1999 Departmental Expenditure Estimates.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members, firstly to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today members of the Standing Committee of the Public Accou nts of the Legislature of the North-West Province, South Africa, led by the chairman, Mr. Van Deventer. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Also seated in the public gallery we have twenty-one Grade 9 students from Isaac Newton School, under the direction ofMs. Jane Lower.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Impact of Nursing Layoffs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

A report released today by nurses on the front line indicates that close to 86 percent of the nurses working across Manitoba believe that since 1995, which would be through two different Health ministers, three areas of health care services have been neglected in terms of their roles. These are three areas out of basic nursing care, treatment, medication, vital signs, charting and patient education.

I would like to ask the Premier: what impact has his government's decision to lay off or fire close to I ,000 nurses had on the disastrous state of affairs in Manitoba's health care system, as reported by the nurses here today? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, it is interesting that the comparison only goes back to 1995 .

I think if one were to go back somewhat farther, I have today, and I am prepared to table it, a report from the Winnipeg Free Press dated July 11 , 1983, and I would like to quote from it just to put this report into perspective and context: The union bargaining for Manitoba nurses says understaffing of hospitals has continued throughout the year despite an

Ap ril 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 39 increase in the number of incidents endangering patients. As a result, the Manitoba Organization of Nurses Associations is stepping up its campaign to make the public hospitals administration and the provincial government aware of what it sees as a health care crisis. This is back in 1983. Vera Chemecki, president of the 7,3 00-member union, which, by the way, I believe is larger today than it was in 1983, is quoted as saying: They are being silent Fl orence Nightingales. Chemecki said the danger to patients continues unabated and cited some recent examples.

Those are listed in this particular result. The point that I make, Madam Speaker, is this has been something the MNU has continually put out for well over a decade. Mr. Doer: Well, thank you, this no-show minister, Madam Speaker, for-and if the minister is not listening to patients and nurses-[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: During the last election campaign, Madam Speaker, which was in 1995, the Premier (Mr. Filmo

n) stated that hiring Connie Curran would have been judged by most Manitobans and paying her some $4. 5 million U.S. was a mistake. Regrettably, after the election campaign the Premier then proceeded to implement the reductions in nurses across Manitoba as recommended by Ms. Curran, and nurses today feel that this has really affected the patient care, the patient workload, the effectiveness of nurses and the numbers of nurses in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: why did he implem ent the cutback of close to a thousand nurses in Manitoba after he said in the heat of an election campaign that hiring Connie Curran was a mistake? * (1 340) Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, again, to put things into context of this report, this report has been a tool used by the Manitoba Nurses' Union, and I am not to take away-some of the information in this report I find very useful. I want to say that. But let us put the document into context, because going back to 1983, even before the member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) had entered this Legislature, the same Vera Chemecki is quoted in the Free Press as saying: Chemecki said direct or potential danger to patients has included many incidents when nurses could not offer all the necessary care for their critically charged patients and were reduced to keeping them alive. In many cases, Chemecki says general duty bedside nurses were so busy with urgent chores that vital sign collection and recording ordered by patients' doctors at one-and two hour intervals could not be carried out.

The fact of the matter, as the Free Press I think rightly pointed out in its editorial this weekend, is that the system has always been under a great deal of pressure. This is certainly not something new. It has been around for many, many years. There are some ways of improving the situation, and the hospital authorities will be exploring them. Public Health Nurses Staffing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Again, the minister did not answer the question.

At another forum which he ref used to attend last week, Madam Speaker, Tony Quaglia said it has never been so bad as in the last five years under this Premier (Mr. Filmon) and this government in terms of what is going on in health care. I would like to ask another question. A hundred percent of the public health nurses have stated that there has been a reduction in the nursing staff dealing with the public; 97 percent of public health nurses feel that they do not have the adequate resources.

Given the Postl report and the promise of this Premier in the election campaign, why are we not giving our public health nurses adequate staffing levels and adequate resources to do the job on behalf of Manitobans? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I believe the Leader of the Opposition meant to say that whatever percentage he was quoting of public health nurses was the percentage that responded to the study, not in total numbers of public health nurses. As we have moved to regional health

1840 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1997 authorities and as resources are being looked at and examined by those regional health authorities, I can tell the member that some of the issues that Ms. Chemecki has raised with me in terms of the staffing levels for nurses-her claim that great amounts of overtime are currently being used by our independent hospitals and that those resources put in to help make more positions available for full-time nurses would go a long way to solve that problem.

That is one of the issues that the regional health authority wiii now have the ability to deal with, and that ability did not exist until the creation of those regional health authorities. Health Care System Government Initiatives Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, if the government is not even will ing to acknowledge or listen to the nurses, to the 5,000 nurses of Manitoba who filled out this form, then this province is in grave difficulty. The pattern continues of blame, blame, blame. This report is unprecedented in the history of Manitoba.

Let the minister pull out a study or a report from Manitoba or any other jurisdiction that is as bad as this one where nurses say that--oh, 51 percent of nurses rate the quality of patient care as very poor to fair. Wiii this government finally listen? What steps wiii they take to finally do something in terms of health care and stop blaming everyone for the problem and finally do something about it? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, no one is blaming anyone here. What we are doing is putting into context a report that is released regularly.

This report goes back to the early 1980s when members opposite were in power, and that report-[interjection] Well, I am quoting the Free Press. I guess they can defend their own paper and their reporting, but the fact of the matter is the same kind of language describing the situation in health care, very similar language, was used in 1983, so let us put things in context. There is no doubt that our acute care system has gone through great difficulty as we have moved in the transition to long-term care. An Honourable Member: No, you have not. Mr. Praznik: Well, the member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) says, no, we have not moved. While tripling the home care budget in a decade, we now spend-I think Saskatchewan spends some $70 mil lion, a little over $70 mill ion a year for home care. We spend $12 3 million. Do we see in this report any acknowledgement of that shift in services? No, Madam Speaker. * (13 45) Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain, since in his first response he said: well, the regional health authority in Winnipeg is going to clear this up, why in this report it states that in all but one category northern Manitoba has the worst ratings of anywhere in the province of Manitoba when, in fact, the minister's own regional health authorities are already operating in that jurisdiction? Is that not an indictment of the policies of this government as it relates to health care? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, we have spent countless hours in Estimates getting into very great detail about the changes that we are taking on as a province. The member for Kildonan is very well aware that there are some fundamental problems in our system around how we organize and administer health care, how we have accountability in our budget, which makes it very difficult to move resources accurately around the system, as well, with our ability to gamer the right information on which to make decisions.

All of the fundamental changes that are needed to correct those fundamental problems, which I believe wiil lead to significant improvements in the delivery of health care, are in the process of taking place. Do they happen overnight? No, they do not, and the member knows that. We have discussed this in Estimates. Today he comes to this House as if he has amnesia. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, wiii the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) or the Minister of Health or anyone on that side at least acknowledge and recognize the fact that 5,000 nurses put together an unprecedented report that is the greatest indictment of the health care system that you have been managing for 1 0 miserable years in this province? Will you at least acknowledge that there are ma jor deficiencies that need address, that you cannot hide behind the regional boards, that you have to implement some programs and systems immediately to deal with this or people are going to continue to get hurt and suffer in the hallways ofthe province of Manitoba?

April 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1841 Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, if things are in crisis today, according to the same group of nurses, they were in crisis in 1983. So let us put the report into some context. We have never denied some of the very real problems in this system. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health, to comple te his response. Mr. Praznik: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have never denied where there have been problems, and we have never been afraid to discuss the solutions.

The member and I engage in that debate regularly about where we need to go. One of the things we have learned just in the last year as we have taken over those facilities across the province, some 180 independent boards, I have a number of facilities, particularly rural facilities that had operating surpluses in the bank, and they told me one of the reasons they had them is because they were not hiring their full complement of staff. Does that result in the kinds of statements that are made in here? Yes. Is that the problem with the provincial government? No.

The way in which we budget and hold health care, the delivery system accountable is very fundamental to the reform and change. We are taking the steps to do that, while the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) continues to support 180 independent boards. Crime Prevention Antigang Strategy Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice.

Before the current budget, the government polled Manitobans, which showed that 71 percent said as their highest priority they wanted increased spending going to street gang prevention programs, and this, with one single exception, was the highest demand for a program. My question to the minister is: why did this government selectively reject this advice from Manitobans, and why did he not even so much as mention street gangs in the throne speech?

The minister never so much as mentioned street gangs in his December speech on his plans for the year for Justice, and even more importantly, why did they not even mention the word "gangs" in the budget speech? What planet are these people on? * (135 0) Hon.

Vic Toews (Mini ster of Justice and Attorney General): The issue of the justice system and its responsiveness, not only in the area of tougher enforcement of our laws to ensure that people are safe but the issue of social agencies or camps that assist people in the inner city, particularly with activities to channel their activities in a positive way, is a very, very important part of this government's and my department's thrust over the last number of years.

I know that we have been very successful in working together with the Turtle Island urban sports camp, which is in the member's riding or just outside of it. I am told by the director of public safety that 1,10 0 children on a monthly basis use that facility. So I do not know what planet the member is on, given that this is happening in his own constituency. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a supplemen tary question. Mr. Mackintosh: If everything is okey-dokey, why did they ask the question- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Mackintosh: I ask the question of the minister: why, then, did this government trash its own report on gangs, our own Gang Action Plan, slash all its funding for friendship centres, which meant the layoff of crime prevention workers? Why did it kill the Night Hoops program for inner-city prevention? Why did it now walk away from Ted Hughes's report on the real solution of marketable skills and job prospects for people, why, in fact, this government, in no small way, has helped create the conditions that have bred this crime under this government? Mr.

Toews: I will not attempt to try to answer the number of questions that this member has just put to me. I know that I am entitled to answer one question. What I would suggest is that if-and I have asked the member before. I said why do you not come to my deputy's of fice, and my deputy will sit down with you and go through all of the programs that we are in fact

1842 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1997 doing. Now I know the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) is again chirping from her seat and says why do I not tell him. All right, well, why do I not. I will start. Madam Sp eaker, the first thing I would like to, of course, say is that the Turtle Island sports camp has been a very successf ul sports camp. We have worked together with the Salvation Army and fund that program on an annual basis.

There will be an announcement very shortly in respect of another sports camp that I understand may well be in the member for Wolseley's constituency where, I might indicate, members of the community are working together with government as opposed to the member for Wolseley who has nothing but negative things to say. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a final supplem entary question. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would this government, instead of this puffery and talking about one single program, open its eyes and see that gangs are claiming ownership of part of this city through their graffiti, loved ones are being murdered, families are hiding from their front windows, kids are afraid to go to school, to community centres? Will it explain why it continues to ignore the needs of Manitobans and the clearly stated wishes of Manitobans? *

(1355) Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Spea ker, I disagree with everything that the member for St. Johns has ju st stated as a fact in his question. I want to say that this government has worked very closely with police, worked very closely with social agencies and has been very strong supporters of our Crown attorneys. Now I know the member for St. Johns just attacked another Crown attorney last week. I happen to know why he particularly chose to attack that Crown attorney, because that was the Crown attorney who went on CJOB and asked the member for St. Johns to quit misrepresenting what Crown attorneys do.

So now he is attacking that Crown attorney. Well, I can tell you we stand with the Crown attorneys, we stand with the police and we stand with social agencies that are moving to protect the people in Manitoba and Winnipeg. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Spea ker, Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

Once again, the Attorney General is not only not answering the question but is engaging in some kind of personal vendetta he has with the member for St. Johns. He should be drawn to order and should be required under our rules to either answer the question or not waste the time of Question Period, as he is doing repeatedly in this House. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr. Toews: On the same point of order, I believe that it is essential that people actually understand why the member raises questions and for the purpose that he is raising them.

In that particular case, I was simply responding to the question that was really asked, and that was he was criticizing a Crown attorney who had the courage to speak out against that kind of conduct of the member for St. Johns. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, indeed I would remind the honourable Minister of Justice to respond to the question asked and not provoke debate. Poverty Rate Reduction Strategy Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Sp eaker, today I received a newsletter from east area Child and Family Services, and I would like to quote from it. It says: kids going to school without lunch, babies being fed diluted formula, moms not eating because there is not enough food to go around. Sad but true stories that CFS workers hear often.

This ties in with the recommendation or the observations of the Children's Advocate in his fourth annual report last week where he said: "The needs of child ren and families involved in the child and family services system cannot be isolated from the broader social problems of poverty, unemployment, family violence, etc."

April 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1843 I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services what she and her government are doing to address these broader social problems besides reducing social assistance rates, forcing the City of Winnipeg to reduce food allowances and expanding the PST to include child ren's clothing and baby supplies, thereby making these problems worse. What is this government going to do to address these very serious concerns? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for the question because it does provide me with the opportunity to share with all Manitobans exactly what we have been doing as a government to try to address the needs. I know that government cannot do it alone, and no one wants government to do it alone.

They want us to be working with the community to try to ensure that the best programs are in place to get child ren off to a healthy start to life, to work with parents and child ren to try to ensure that parents have the parenting skills to deal with the issues that really are quite complex in today's society and today's reality. We will continue to work and implement the programs that have ju st been announced like Baby First, like Earlystart in many of the communities and constituencies that my honourable friends across the way represent.

We know that there are needs out there, Madam Speaker, and we will continue to address those needs and those issues. I will attempt to provide some more information on the positive initiatives that we have undertaken in subsequent questions. * {14UO) Mr.

Martindale: Will the Minister of Family Services encourage her cabinet coll eagues and her government to institute a comprehensive plan to improve the lives of some very poor people who frequently end up in the care of Child and Family Services, the highest rate per capita in Canada, and act on the recommendation of the operational review which says: in Manitoba the Departments of Education, Health and Family Services are all reducing services. What is this government going to do to co-operate and improve services so fewer children come into care? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, that is exactly what we have been trying to do. Through the Child ren and Youth Secretariat we have been working very aggressively, the Department of Family Services, Department of Education, Department of Health, Department of Justice and others, seven departments within government, to try to ensure that we have a comprehensive approach.

As a result of that, we have over $20 million more in this year's budget that is going to go to services for child ren through nutrition programming, through early intervention programs for pregnant women and those that are deliv ering babies, in their first year of life, for those in the preschool system to ensure that they are ready to learn and that they can socially adapt to starting off to school. All ofthose initiatives, Madam Spea ker, are looking to try to keep child ren out of the Child and Family Services system and get them off to a better start to life.

We all know that if children get off to a healthy start to life, they are better prepared for school and better prepared for the workforce. Mr. Martindale: What is this minis ter and her government going to do to reverse the contraction of human services in the human services envelope which is exposing children to greater degrees of risk and being brought into care? Is she going to influence her cabinet coll eagues and Treasury Board and her government and her Premier (Mr.

Filmon) to reverse the cuts to school counsel lors, public health nurses in schools, cuts to child ren's speech, language and communi cation disorder services? Will she act with her coll eagues to reverse the cuts that have been made that make these problems much worse? Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Sp eaker, I look forward to the opportunity of my Estimates starting and some dialogue and discussion with my honourable friend, because quite frankly he has his head buried in the sand.

He has not recognized or realized that we have over $20 million more in the budget for children and services to child ren and their famili es in this year's budget. That is a significant amount of increased resource, not cuts like my honourable friend has said. We have increased suppor t in our child care system so people can enter the workforce. We have increased support through our child care system to child ren to work with parents and their children. We are increasing the number of public health nurses that are

1844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 1997 going to work through our regional health authorities on our BabyFirst initiatives. So, Madam Speaker, he is dead wrong when he says there have been cuts to children and families in Manitoba. Manitoba Nurses' Union Report Minister's Position Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. In listening to his answer I was somewhat disappointed, when you have thousands of nurses, who are the backbone of our health care services and del ivery, trying to express their concerns to the Minister of Health.

My question is to the minister: specifically, does he give any validi ty to what the nurses in the province of Manitoba are in fact trying to say? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, if the member for Inkster had listened to my answer, he would have found that I had said there were many things in this report that one can learn from. Vera Chernecki, president of the Manitoba Nurses' Union, and I meet from time to time. She has raised with me some issues that we believe have to be explored.

She does not have the accurate numbers either, and that is one of the things that we wanted to ascertain, is accurate numbers and move towards a correction of them and do that in a co-operative fashion. In the facilities that I have toured and my observations of the system in being Health minis ter for over a year and a half, I can pretty much identify many of the areas of pressure that they have outlined. The kinds of things we need to do to relieve that pressure, the tools to do that are currently underway.

The regional health authorities give us a much better ability to make those changes and do the things that Vera Chernecki and the Manitoba Nurses' Union-some of the things that they are asking for. So, yes, we are lis tening very closely. Nursing Profession Role Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health then indi cate what is he prepared to do in a tangible way in order to reach out to what the nurses are in fact saying? Is the minis ter prepared then to-for example, in education, they had parental conferences in the previous adminis tration.

Is the Minister of Health prepared to bring to the table in a significant way our nurses in order to ensure that we are hearing first-hand what needs to be happening in health care? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Spea ker, despite the fact that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) continues to supp ort the old system of 180 different boards delivering health care, we have moved on regionalization.

I can tell the member that in the case of Winnipeg, the 13 program teams that are dealing with issues in specific program areas-as part of the management of that team, there is a nurse appointed to that management team, along with a physician, an allied health-worker representative and a manager. So nurses now in a very real way are very much involved in the re-engineering of the health care system, and I am proud of that fact. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Sp eaker, the question to the Minister of Health was-obviously it is very clear that the nurses want to be able to participate in a significant way.

The question specific to the minis ter is: is the minis ter prepared to provide a vehicle in which those nurses are going to be able to give more direct advice to the minis ter through some form of a council, open forum, much like they had for the teachers and parents? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am a little confused as to whether the member for Inkster is proposing we get on with solving problems or we enter into another round of talking about problems.

Many of the issues that are outlined in this document, many of the issues around how we better organize care to del iver it in a more patient-friendly manner and more effectively to our patients are presently being done by our program teams, and nurses are represented on those program teams by having a nurse on every one of those 13 program teams in the re-engineering of those programs. There is no better way to be involved. If the member for Inkster is suggesting that the Manitoba Nurses' Union be formally represented in

Apr il 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 45 management decisions, let us separate function. The Manitoba Nurses' Union is the bargaining agent for nurses. Their responsibility is to represent the issues of emplo yment to nurses. Nurses within the system are involved in the management and in the decisions around the re-engineering of those programs. So, yes, nurses are very well represented in the decisions today. Access Program Impact of Funding Reduction Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, according to a recent report on Manitoba's educational statistics, aboriginal people aged 20 to 29 were less likely to graduate from post-secondary institutions than aboriginal people in general. If this is the case, it is truly a backwards step, and what we are looking at is the case of a lost generation. I would like to ask the Minister of Education to tell the House: what has been the impact of the deep cuts, almost 50 percent cuts, to Access imposed by her government in creating that missing generation? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Mini ster of Education and Training): I share with the member a concern for seeing that our aboriginal popula tion is able to grow and achieve and succeed in the world which they enter as adults. Madam Speaker, I have to clarify of course what the member I belie ve knows, is that Access funding reductjons were sparked by the withdrawal of some $4.5 million from the federal government back in the early '90s.

But she has asked specifically what the results are, and I am pl eased to provide her with the results because she knows we have, on top of the Canada Student Loans, provided for students in need unlimi ted funds in nonrepayable bursaries to allow students who are disadvantaged to succeed. When we came into office in '88-89, they were, in the intake, taking in about 265 students; we are now taking in over 300. They were graduating around 11 0; we are now graduating regularly 11 5. So the intake and the graduation has continued to grow through the years.

We are pleased about that because that is what it is all about in the final analysis. * (1410 ) Ms. Friesen: Could the minis ter tell us then what the impact on aboriginal education and indeed Manitoba's future will be of the inability of First Nations now to fund Access students? In fact, in this coming year, as indicated in letters now going out from the Opaskwayak Cree Nation, they are telling their young people they cannot fund them for this year, but they are taking app lications for '99. That is the future for aboriginal people in Manitoba. Where is the government on this? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Maybe the member did not hear me in my first answer when I said that we do have approximately 23 percent of our Access students receive nonrepayable provincial bursaries on top of the other monies they receive through Canada Student Loans, et cetera. I recall last year we had the debate as to whether or not students were receiving up to $26,000 per year on top of their other money, and I was able to show the member indeed that was correct. We fully support bringing the aboriginal students up to the levels that would make them fully successf ul in our socie ty.

We keep doing that with a number of initiatives, not just through Access, although I have to say that 93 percent of the graduates from our Access programs are successf ully employed. We also have other initiatives such as Partners For Careers, and my coll eague the Minister of Native Affairs (Mr. Newman) has been very actively involved through the urban aboriginal strategy in things such as Partners For Careers, which sees an astounding number of some 300 aboriginal graduates successfully employed in industry. Air Canada Call Centre Hiring Policy-A boriginals Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, on March 14 when the Premier (Mr. Filmon), the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), the CEO of Air Canada and the mayor announced a $2- mill ion tax credit for a new Air Canada customer service call centre in Winnip eg, the Premier stated, and I quote: many in the aboriginal popula tion will have jobs. The Air Canada CEO pledged to, quote, recruit as many aboriginals as we possibly can. What is there in black and white to assure us that urban aboriginal hiring will be more than just another

18 46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri l 20, 19 97 empty promise as we have seen from this government over the last I 0 years? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Sp eaker, I thank the member for Wellin gton for making a note of the fact that in the recruitment of yet another job creation initiative for Manitoba, we were successful in competition with many other provinces in Canada in getting Air Canada to come here.

Through that all, it involved a number of very positive initiatives for Winnipeg, the assurance that there will be about another 500 jobs in downtown Winnip eg, the restoration of a heritage building that will ensure that we preserve one of Winni peg's oldest buildin gs in that core area of Winnipeg, and also an agreement by the investor, that is Air Canada, that they will do everything in their power to employ aboriginal people within that environment. Those are all positive things which I think we should all be very pleased about and be very suppor tive of.

I fail to see what problem the member for Wellin gton has with that issue. Ms.

Barrett: Madam Spea ker, since the Premier himself stated in January that Winnipeg's having the highest popula tion of aboriginal people of any city in Canada is, and I quote, a very significant challen ge for us col lectively and must be addressed as a priority, end quote, I would like to ask the Premier and maybe this will clarify it for him: what specific indicators have been put in place between the government and Air Canada so that we as a population, as citizens, and most particularly so that the aboriginal community in the city of Winnipeg can have a sense of degree of accountability for a change from this government as to when and how many aboriginals will be hired at the call centre?

Mr. Filmon: I know it must be simple, because you are the one asking the question but- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, what I think the member fails to understand is that by setting up all sorts of empty targets, as she and her collea gues used to do when they were in opposition, nothing gets done. I would say to her that every single person that we are able to employ from the aboriginal community in these areas, in all areas of employment, is a positive move forward.

That is why, as part of our call centre initiative, as part of our industrial recruitment initiative, we are working with companies to get them to make commitments to hire and to employ aboriginal people. That is why we did it with the call centre for the Royal Bank. In fact, there were people from the employment community there; there were people from the aboriginal training community there. A former member of this Legislature from the New Democratic Party was part of that process for training those aboriginals for it.

Madam Speaker, if we employ 50, if we employ 10 0, if we employ any number, it is a positive step forward. That is what this government is committed to, and that is why it is happening, instead of getting the empty rhetoric of the member for Well ington. Agriculture Indu stry Safety Net Programs Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Sp eaker, Statistics Canada figures show us that Manitoba grain and cattle farmers have the lowest income in the country. This is particularly disturbing since these farmers constitute roughly three-quarters of the farmers in Manitoba.

This is a very serious situation and one that I am afraid is going to get worse. I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is taking to ensure that we have proper safety net programs and other supports to help, and what steps he has taken to urge the federal government to ensure that we have proper programs in place to help grain and cattle farmers through these very difficult times. Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, allow me simply to make this observation in response to the honourable member and remind her that it was a Liberal government in Ottawa that took away the support program with respect to the movement of grain out of this region. It is a Liberal government that still impedes the ability of some of our farmers to access the most available market, namely the United States.

Regrettably, it is former Liberal members of this House who are attempting to stop and impede the very resolution to some of this problem, namely, diversification into livestock, and I ref er particularly to

Apri1 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 47 one Harold Taylor who has made a living out of doing this in different parts of rural Manitoba. That is precisely why, Madam Speaker, we in Manitoba have to divert into the value-added aspects of agriculture. That is why it was so encouraging to be in the city of Brandon this morning and see the beginning of a $1 12 -million industry started there that will process hogs, provide jobs for Manitobans, provide an outlet for grain and for hog farmers in Manitoba. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Hog Industry Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Madam Speaker, Manitoba's pork industry continues to grow at a phenomenal rate. Our province is leading all Canadian provinces in hog exports, and in 19 97 Manitoba pork and pork by-products increased 97 percent over 19 96. For the first time, pork exports have surpassed the $1 00-million mark, reaching $1 53.5 milli on in '97. These tremendous numbers are the result of an aggressive industry that has worked in co operation with our province to market the Manitoba Pork Advantage.

This morning a ground-breaking ceremony occurred in the city of Brandon, a ground-breaking ceremony that marks the beginning of a $1 12 -million state-of-the art pork processing plant, a project that will create thousands of high-paying jobs and make our province the pork production centre of Canada. Our government is committed to working with the agricultural industry to facilitate future diversification opportunities, and continued co-operation between government, industry and local stakeholders pay benefits to all Manitobans. My congratulations go out today to Maple Leaf and the city of Brandon.

This partnership has already resulted in approximately $2.5-million worth of land being sold by the city of Brandon, and I am confident that this economic growth is but the tip of the iceberg. I do hope that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) continues to enjoy his window view of the new plant. As he watches the pla nt go up and sees thousands of Manitobans heading to work, I hope he reflects on the strong economic policies that this government has impl emented to help make it happen. * (1 420) Bank Mergers Mr.

Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, last Friday Canadians awoke to find that another bank merger had been announced between the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce and the Toronto Dominion Bank. Added to the proposed Royal Bank and Bank of Montreal merger, this means that 70 percent of the banking business will be controlled by just two banks in Canada. While the stated goal of business, including commercial banks, is to promote competition, their actions are geared to wiping out competition. This projected bank merger-the banks hope to cut overall costs by 1 0 percent.

They cut costs by laying of f people who work for the banks, by decreasing bank services and by closing branches of banks, particularly in the inner city area and in the local towns like Lynn Lake. This is happening, despite the fact that the bank profits have been increasing and soaring. Last year alone there was almost over $7 billi on total overall bank profits among the few banks that we have in Canada. For Canadians, they feel that they have been gouged by these high service fees the banks are charging everywhere. They simply have less choices now, the consumers, the Canadians as consumers.

When will the federal government act to protect consumers from this gouging and lack of competition. The proposed bank mergers would only make matters worse. There is no evidence that the federal government is wil ling to do anything about it, given that the banks have contributed too much money in the political coffers of both parties in the federal government. The NDP urges the federal government to act now. Thank you. The Void Youth Drop-In Centre Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): This past weekend, my wife Jeanie and I chaperoned an event at

18 48 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr i1 20, 19 97 The Void. The Void of fers young people in the constituency of Sturgeon Creek a safe place to spend their leisu re time. The event attracted over 12 0 students from the middle and senior schools in the St. James-Assiniboia School Division, and there were also students at this event from Tee Voc, Gordon Bell, St. John's, and General Byng in Fort Garry. Students and staff of the St. James-Assiniboia Focus on Youth deserve congratulations for their hard work and commitment running a youth drop-in centre in our community since 19 87, Madam Speaker.

The Void, located at 19 70 Ness Avenue, has a gymnasium for physical recreation activities and a lounge area for crafts and conversation. Having such a drop-in centre provides our youth with an opportunity to develop their leadership ski lls through volunteer activities. The goal of all of those involved with the drop-in centre is to help the youth of today become the productive adults of tomorrow.

With the help of the program co-ordinator, Sarah McLachlan and The Void's vol unteer committee, including Cory Narharnie, Glenn Cook, Tanya Lautermil ch, Matt Miller, Daina Leitold, and Trevor Hyshrall, the centre has been able to host events for groups as large as 200 students. I am not aware of any other facility which boasts free admission that operates this extensively for young people on a year-round basis. I would like to congratulate our own Sarah McLachlan and all the vol unteers, including the ones referenced, that make The Void such an inviting place for young people to spend their time.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Misericordia Hospital-Breast Care Services Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): The plans by the provincial government to gut Misericordia Hosp ital has saddened residents far beyond the city of Winnip eg. On March 27, a resident of Leaf Rapids, Mrs. Nettie Dearborn wrote to me stating that, as a patient of the breast care clinic at Misericordia, she disagrees with the government pl ans and strongly urges the government to drop plans to spread the service among several hospitals. She calls the pl ans ridiculous, and says the current service is helpful, professional and comforting.

Rural Manitobans, like her, pay the $969 cost of having to get to Winnip eg from Leaf Rapids only to be shuffled around from institution to institution. She says the changes to the health system have been a joke. The clinic in Misericordia Hospital is perfect for many unfortunate cancer patients, so please do not try to fix something that is not broken, she says. Earlier this month, in Leaf Rapids, I met many men and women concerned with what the impending changes for Misericordia would mean for the future breast services in this provi nce.

Over 40 residents of Leaf Rapids signed a petition opposin g the government plans. Leaf Rapids residents, like Manitobans elsewhere, want their breast care program kept at one hospital-the Misericordia. The province should listen to the public and keep the breast program operating as is. In this regard, a recent letter to the editor by J.R.M.

Smith, the president of the medical staff at Misericordia Hospital, stated that, considering the debacle in pediatric-cardiac surgery, the horrendous system-wide inpatient bed shortages, which delay surgeries at other hospitals, and the congestion and chaos in emergency rooms, to deny patients access to the operating room services at the Misericordia is illo gical at best. Potato Producers Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): Manitoba's potato producers are very close to achieving an important milestone that they have set for themselves.

They are on their way to overtaking Prince Edward Isla nd as Canada's potato-producing capital. Statistics Canada has released information which reveals that Manitoba's potato producers' income is $83, 290, and including all farm sources of income, it reaches an average of $12 6, 12 2 per potato producer. Our potato producers do so well because our potato farms are bigger here than in P.E.I. Although P.E.I. has nearly two times as many acres of spuds as Manitoba, officials note that if another potato-processing plant would open here, our total acreage of potatoes could surpass P.E.I.

As a result, the price of potato-farming land is skyrocketing to approximately $2,000 per acre. As Reg Curle of Manitoba Agriculture stated, and I quote: We do not take a back seat to anybody in terms of potato farming. I am very pleased to be able to bring this news to the floor of the House, and I would like to take the

April 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 49 oppor tunity to congratulate all potato producers and processors on the success of their industry. This goes to show that Manitoba producers are adapting very well to the post-Crow era. Successf ul processing pla nts such as Midwest Foods in Carberry and McCain's in Portage la Prairie provid e potato producers with an excelle nt market for their crops; moveover, they employ a vast number of Manitobans in our growing agri-food industry. I would like to wish all potato producers the best as they begin a new farming season.

Perhaps this season will see Carberry become Canada's potato-producing capital. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister oflndustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Madam Spe aker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. * (1 430) Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENERGY AND MINES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. Tt,is afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the considera tion of the Estimates ofthe Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat, the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines had 20 minutes to comple te his opening remarks. Does the minis ter wish to continue with his statement? * (1 440) Hon. David Newman (Mini ster of Energy and Mines): Mr. Chair, yes, I actually got stopped in midsentence, so I will begin with the sentence that I ended off with on April 16 , 19 98.

As a result of 17 workshops attended by 247 people in the flood-damaged area and fielding of some 500 technical inquiries, our housing scientists have come to be widely regarded as the premiere source of impartial information on proper cleanup and reconstruction techniques. The key part of our message was: take advantage of the need to rebuild to improve the energy efficiency of your home. The department is hosting a series of new home and energy saver workshops across the province. Attendance at these workshops has more than doubled over the last year.

Workshop evaluations continue to be highly positive and complim entary. The branch has also been involved in representing Manitoba negotiations relating to finalization of the energy

chapter of the agreement on internal trade. In addition, as a result of the efforts of the branch, Manitoba has taken a lead role in raising reliabil ity issues as the North American electrical industry continues to deregulate. We hosted a workshop attended by representatives of the electrical industry, provincial and federal jurisdictions, and represented the provinces in discussions with the U.S. Department of Energy. This year, two new positions have been approved for the Energy section.

They will restore our capabil ity to develop policy options and provide input into Manitoba's response to the issue of climate change. Specific plans in this area are to update our inventory of greenhouse gas emissions and develop a comprehensive proposal to increase the use of ethanol in Manitoba. This latter objective was scheduled for last year but had to be delayed because of the efforts directed to flood recovery. We have initiated discussions with the government Fleet Vehicles Agency to identify candidates for alternatively fuelled vehicles.

We hope to involve the federal government in this initiative in areas where there is a significant number of provincial and federal vehicles. The department is providing advice and promotional assistance in the West Broadway renewal project. This exciting initiative involves renovating existing homes and constructing new energy-efficient homes in this area of Winnipeg. The program also offers vocational training and uses products and services of businesses in the area.

The branch is providing expertise to the Sustainable Developme nt Committee of Cabinet regarding the technical soundness of proje cts requesting funding assistance from the Sustainable Development

18 50 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 97 Innovations Fund. One of the most innovative proje cts respecting energy efficiency has been the eco-villa ge proje ct proposed at The Forks in Winnipeg. The Energy and Mines contribution to the project has been to provide information and technical review for both the proponents and Manitoba Environment, which are admini stering the project on behalf of the fund. The project is still under development with a final recommendation awaiting a marketability assessment. Mr.

Chair, this concludes my introductory remarks. want to take this oppo rtunity to express my appreciation to the employees of Energy and Mines for their hard work, conscientious work and commitment to providing quality services to our customers and Manitobans. To the official opposition critic, I look forward to a dialogue during this period of Estimates that will serve to further enl ighten the people of Manitoba. Thank you. *

(1450) Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for St. James have an opening statement? Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. My comments will be brief and directed to some of the areas of inquiry that I will be making.

As I have said over and over again, there is a recognition on the opposition side and by myself of the significance of mining in Manitoba and the importance of it as a resource to Manitobans in general, as a source of taxation for the government in particular, providing work, employment for many northerners and in mining communities. Manitoba is endowed with a wide range of mineral resources, base metals, precious metals, indus trial minerals, as well as aggregate materials.

One of the areas that I am going to be exploring is what plans the government has to diversify its programs in terms of perhaps looking at a broader utilization or emphasis on the development of our resources. This is particularly acute, in my opinion, in the area of aggregate materials which is now being used obviously to maintain a road system which is being used, by far, a great deal more because of the changes to the rail policy, the Crow rate. The whole agricultural sector is now moving from one that was rail into using the road base.

Many municipalities are in a desperate situation and in fact do not have materials to provide for the maintenance of those roads.

In a broader sense, the mining commodities are undergoing a downturn, which is a natural part of the cycle, and as we went through the good years and we saw prices up, I always caution the government to recognize that a lot of its success was related to international factors, and healthy mining returns means a healthy mining community, but I do believe that there is a respon sibil ity for government to help get through the downturns, to heip those mining communities at times where we see dramatic shutdowns. Our government used various resources.

We had created the Manitoba Mineral Resources that was unfortunately sold for approximately $30 million. This was a Crown corporation that actively pursued the development of mines and mineral resources, and it had success stories and was available to be an active partner. There is also the Mining Reserve Fund which was establis hed many years ago before the New Democrats were in power-I believe it was a Tory administration that had first established it, but I could be wrong-whose purpose at that time was to help those communities that were facing potential disaster because of a mining closure.

That fund is now being proposed to be used or has been used for the past year or so to fund the exploration program, a decision I strongly oppose. This is iegisiation that is coming before the House, and we will have an opportunity to debate that. The other portion ofthat bill includes the increasing of the Mining Reserve Fund from the level it has been for many, many years to I believe it is $20 milli on. An Honourable Member: Ten. Ms. Mihychuk: Ten million. That is a positive.

That is long overdue, and I would probably argue that maybe we should look at a higher ceil ing than I 0 million but that is very important, and that it needs to be there. It needs to be used for a more immediate reserve fund than I would suggest the MEAP programs. Exploration is fundamental and required in Manitoba. I think that, unless you are extremely lucky and trip over a significant deposit, the development of a mineral

April 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 51 deposit into something that is into production takes a considerable length of time. I will actually be asking the minis try as to what the average sort of development period is, but if we looked at the Cross Lake deposit, for example, back in the '80s, we knew of its existence and were already mapping and defining it with consi derable detail. Here we are at the end of the '90s and we still have a ways to go before that mine opens, so looking at 10 years down the road I do not think is being unrealistic for the amount of time that it takes to develop a mine.

So to use the Mining Reserve Fund for MEAP, I would say is a long-term investment. Many of our exploration programs do not end up discovering an economic mineral resource, do provide important information however and is important to our economy, but I would suggest that the Mining Reserve Fund be used for the workers and the communities that are being impacted by pending mining clo sure or the closure itself of a mine as it was originally designated.

In addition, we have expressed our disappointment with the governrnent's budget, that this year there were a couple of items identified but overall the North was basically ignored in terms of the budget. The Highways budget, I understand, with some movement from one hand to the other is the same as last year, the concentration of that money being focused in the south. That is extremely unfortunate given the dire shape of the roads in the North. As well, airports, for example, there was a recent announcement by this government to enhance the airports.

Those airports, all southern in that announcement are being enhance d. No money for northern airport improvements. More and more studies are being conducted while there are not the supports to actually do the work. We know that the North also faces serious problems with supplying the professionals they need, particularly in the areas of health and education. You can read the newspapers on a regular basis as the North searches for teachers and other professionals, as well as doctors.

One of the programs that the government has been very quick to identify as providing support to young children is the early literacy program, something that is particularly needed in the North. I know that the minis ter has had the opportunity to visit, but there are many communities up north where early education is not available. There is not access to a whole lot of nursery programs and preschool programs. The library facili ties are inadequate. Point of Order Mr. Newman: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I just want to clarify and make sure that I am in the right Estimates.

Is this Energy and Mines, or is it Highways and Transportation and Health and Education? The difficulty that I have, if I am in the wrong meeting and those are the topics under discussion, it would be more appropriate to have Minister Findlay here and Minister Mitchelson and Minister Mcintosh and Minister Praznik. Maybe I could just have that clarification. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. James, on the same point of order. Ms. Mihychuk: On the same point of order, I am shocked at the minister.

He, of all people, should know that that type of infrastructure and supports is not only important to the people of the North but in particular to the mining associations and the minin g communities, many of them who have directly approached us expressing infrastructure as a major criterion for investment in the North and a major factor of having a healthy mining community. So, Mr. Chairman, this may seem somewhat peri pheral, but I would like to suggest that it is absolutely essential and that investing in infrastructure in the North is a serious component of providing a strong mining community. Mr.

Newman: On the same point of order, I gather that I am- Mr. Chairperson: Order, pl ease. I would just like to advise all honourable members we are here to address the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines, and any reference beyond that I would have to rule that the discussion would be out of order. I would caution all members that they should try to stay relevant with regard to the Estimates that we are dealing with here, and I would make that caution and hope that I would

18 52 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 97 get the co-operation of the committee with regard to this. * * * Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. James, to continue with your remarks. * (1 500) Ms. Mihychuk: Many of the supports and the infrastructure for the North is essential for a healthy mining community. It is unfortunate that the minis ter, who is also responsible for Northern Affairs-and in fact it is my understanding that the deputy minister is shared between Northern Affairs and Mining-clearly the government recognizes the interrelatedness between Northern Affairs and Mining. Mr.

Chairperson: Order, please. I would ju st caution the member that we are talking about Energy and Mines. We are not talking about Northern Affairs. Although there is some overlap with regard to the minister, we are talking about the Estimates of Energy and Mines. I would ask the member to direct her comments and questions to that department, please. Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, I am directing my comments to the mining industry and the North.

I will continue on my comments, and I think that we will indeed be exploring the interrelationship between Northern Affairs and Minin g, and that is an important factor, a policy decision by this government, and to separate them here in this committee seems out of sync with what actually the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the government have done in terms of combinin g the minis ter' s respons ibil ities and the deputy minis ter' s. So I will be going into that relationship in greater detail when we have an oppor tunity to talk about the new deputy minis ter as well. Mr.

Newman: Just on the same point of order, if I may offer a solution. You can certainly participate, the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), in the Northern Affairs Estimates and can put questions. The difficulty is the staff here are not, as part of their job description, equipped to deal with the kinds of questions that could arise out of the kinds of issues that you are raising.

I have no dispute that infrastructure is impor tant, a social and economic infrastructure is important to mining success and developmen t, but it is simply not des igned, the process and the people here are not prepared, by job description mandated to address the kinds of issues you are raising. I do invite you to attend the Northern Affairs Estimates, which have not yet been held, to raise issues that do affect my other portfolio. Mr.

Chairperson: Just for the information of the comm ittee, Northern Affairs will be coming up in the Estimates sequence in the Chamber after Rural Development and Education and Training. The honourable member for St. James, to continue with your statement. Ms. Mihychuk: On that point of order. Mr. Chairperson : On the same point of order. Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, I jus t want to assure you that I am fully familiar with the Estimates order and that I know what is relevant for this committee and what is not.

In my opening statements, I had assumed-as has been the practice in the past-a certain latitude, as these are general comments in an opening statement which are, I beli eve, related. So my questions for staff will be relevant to Energy and Mines. I am quite aware of that. Mr. Chair person: Okay. Just for the benefit of the committee, I guess I will just make this comment that as far as the questioning, we will be dealing with the questions of Energy and Mines, and in terms of the relevance, the Chair will reserve the right as to whether or not there is relevance to this department.

So I guess we could go on and on with this aspect. We will just leave it at that. But I think that the member for St. James was in the process of making her statement and questioning the Chair, in terms of whether the decision to question, whether or not the member for St. James was releva nt or not. I guess I am making an

interpretation here. Maybe I am incorrect in doing that. But, if the member for St. James wishes to chal lenge the Chair on the decision that has been made, that is certainly the member' s prerogative.

April 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 53 I am asking and have asked that the member for St. table, and we ask that the minis ter introduce his staff James continue with her statement to the committee so present. that we can get on with the Estimates. Ms. Mihychuk: Well, Mr. Chairman, it is not my desire to be interrupted; I just have a brief statement.

I will continue with my comments and wish to assure the minis ter that we will be looking at a broad range of issues, including land tenure issues, which are particularly releva nt right now in the North and across Canada; in addition, the various needs as identified by industry, including a comprehensive, geological information base, the MEAP program; the Systemhouse desktop program, and the support services that that is providing to the department; the government's policies in providing meaningful opportunities for northerners, in particular First Nations people, to gain experience through the department in workplace oppor tunities, through summer assistance opportunities, working with mining on a training emplo yment program, if there is such a thing.

Looking at other jurisdictions, some of them look way ahead of Manitoba in terms of providing the training and job opportunities for First Nations people in the mining sector. So I will be asking the minis ter for our vision and our pl ans to move ahead with these initiatives.

Looking at the overall focus of the department in a number of sectors, we have seen, basically, the department has been reduced from what it was in the '80s, and we have seen less and less staff so that providing that type of geological base is apparently more difficult than it was in the past, and be looking at perhaps some vision as to how we can provide that information. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item consi dered for the Estimates of the department.

Accordingly, we shall defer consider ation of this item, and I will proceed with the consider ation of the next line. We will now proceed to-just a minute-before we do that, we would invite the minister's staff to join us at the * (1510 ) Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to introduce the staff whom I am very proud of and particularly the people who have been promoted to new and more responsible positions.

To my immediate left, of course, is Oliv er Boulette, the deputy minister; to his left, Garry Barnes, who is now the assistant deputy minister; Craig Halwachs is director of Admini strative Services in an acting capacity at this time; Jim Crone, director of Marketing; Bob Dubreuil, director of Petroleum and Energy; Art Ball, director of Mines; and Christine Kaszycki, director of Geological Services in an acting capacity at this time. Mr. Chai rperson: We thank the minis ter. We will now proceed to line 23 .1. Admini stration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 4 7 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to welcome all the staff as well. It is a plea sure to meet the new people who have taken on those roles. I welcome back more seasoned staff and wish to ask for some background of our new Mines's deputy minister. Can the minister, for the record, indicate Mr. Boulette's mining experience in his background? Mr. Newman: Mr.

Boulette's background, prior to his appointment effective March 11 , 19 98, is a University of Manitoba graduate majo ring in political studies; employed with the Department of Northern Affairs for the past 16 years, holdin g positions as co-ordinator, regional director and for the past 11 years as assistant deputy minister of the Local Government Development Division. He has a wealth of knowledge and experience with the First Nations in northern communities and is highly respected both within and outside the department for his leadership and management abilities.

During a period when he was a student, he actually worked in mines, and his late father was an active miner for 26 years. So it would be accurate to say that he has grown up with mining around him in a known mining community as well.

18 54 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 97 Ms. Mibychuk: Can the minis ter indicate which community that was and what type of employment the deputy minis ter actually had? Mr. Newman: The hometown I was referring to, the mining commun ity, was Bisse tt, and the area that Mr. Boulette worked was at Red Lake, Ontari o. Ms. Mibychuk: What component of the deputy minis ter's time is spent on Energy and Mines? Mr. Newman: My deputy advises that 50 percent of his time, roughly, is what is dedicated to Energy and Mines. Ms.

Mihycbuk: Would the minis ter indicate in his portfolio how much of his time is spent on Energy and Mines compared to Northern Affairs? Mr. Newman: I would say, overall, approximately the same. It is dependent on circumstances, but overall that is the goal that I have: to devote roughly 50 percent to each. But I put into the 50 percent component for Energy and Mines my respon sibili ties as Minister responsible for Hydro. Ms. Mihycbuk: For clarification, is the minister saying that the time that he spends on Energy and Mines is 50 percent of his workday? Mr. New man: No, definitely not, because it varies.

You have to do it over a broader period of time, but, as I indicated, Energy and Mines, including being Minister responsible for Hydro and Minister respo nsible for CEDF, I regard as something I use every effort to devote half of the time that I have as minis ter to that. Ms. Mibychuk: As was clear in my opening statements, I understand the relationship between Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, and I do not wish to somehow suggest that there is not an important relationship.

It would seem to me that there would be times, particularly dealing with the treaty land entitlement and northern flood, where the minis ter's time would naturally be focused on dealing with these important issues that impact on all three of his respons ibil ities, or four. What I am trying to, I guess, identify is that this is an extremely important area in its own right, that the mines sector is worth a bill ion dolla rs to Manitoba's economy, and look for the minister's commitment to the mining industry in terms of senior staff and the amount of time.

So I am somewhat surprised at the minister's comments that he is spending 50 percent of the time. would seriously question that. Mr. Newman: Well, you are certainly entitled to question it. It is an answer that would be very difficult to ascertain, given there is such a blend of the respons ibilities, as you began to say in your opening remarks.

There is an integration of the neces sary infrastructures, and my experience so far has done nothing but confirm the wisdom of having a minis ter responsible for all of the areas I am responsible for, because you can then have a far more holistic approach and you overcome the impedi ments between departments while at the same time recognizing your responsibilities to each, which sometimes involve one to take a position very cognizant of the impli cations to the mandate which you uphold. To ill ustrate, by that I mean,

whereas mining benefits greatly from low hydroelectric rates, on the other hand, Hydro, of course, has to be prudent on behalf of all stakeholders in Manitoba who have an interest in the profitability of Manitoba Hydro and its success in development. So everything has to be balanced, and that is the challen ge of the departments that I represent: having a sense and understanding, a knowledge of where the balances are and how you can advance things for the benefit of Manitobans through each of these mandates, each of these respons ibilities. Ms.

Mihychuk: Of the minis ter's Executive Supp ort, there are five people. I would assume those people are here at the Legisla ture and provide supp ort to the min ister. Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: Of those five individuals identified, how many have direct experience in the mining sector and would be knowledgeable of Manitoba's mining ind ustry? Mr. Newman: Of the named people that I introduced you to, people that have a direct knowledg e of mining

April 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 18 55 by education and through experience, Christine Kaszycki is chief geologist-[ interjection] Point of Order Ms. Mihychuk: I believe the minister is talking about the departmental staff. I was referring to the people in his office. Mr. Chairperson: It is not a point of order, just a clarification. * * * Mr. Newman: If you are talking about the staff positions, we are talking about the Executive Support Staff.

On page 19 of the Estimates, the individuals there would be my special assistant responsible for Energy and Mines and Hydro matters, and that is Jodi Turner; my appoi ntment secretary, Darlene Hoffman; correspondence secretary, Barb Robson; my deputy minis ter, Oliver Boulette; and his appointment sec retary, Linda Gibson. The extent of mining experience of those individ uals, in addition to myself, would be what we have described in relation to Deputy Minister Boulette. * (1 520) Ms. Mihychuk: Am I to understand that the individual with the greatest amount of mining experience is the deputy minister? Mr.

Newman: Of those five people, that is correct. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indic ate, is the full salary of the deputy minis ter supported by Energy and Mines? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why the deputy minister, who shares his portfolio with Northern Affairs, his salary is coming out of Energy and Mines in total? Mr. Newman: Because we have a split portfolio, with one minister responsible for both departments. That is what is regarded as an appropriate way to fund the deputy minis ter's position. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, clearly, for the record, I have to object on behalf of fairness, I guess. It would seem quite unreasonable to have the full salary come out of one department. In fact, Mr. Boulette will be working with a number of sectors, including Hydro, Energy and Mines, and Northern Affairs. I respect his ability, and I unde rstand that he is highly respected in the north, and the community, but the mining sector also deserves exper tise, and the department, I think, should, in fairness, cover half of the deputy minister's position, as I see that the department covers half of the minis ter's salary.

Even then, I would probably argue that we are getting the short end of the stick in Energy and Mines, but so be it. I mean, Energy and Mines is a fairly small department; well run. We have got numerous Hydro issues, for example, that are also on your table, and on your pla te. So it almost seems reasonable that they would chip in something for that type of administrative support.

But, clearly, for the record, I believe that Energy and Mines deserves its own component, with expertise in mining and energy at the senior administrative levels and that the salary support be relative to the amount of time that the senior staff can spend on the department. Mr. Newman: I will review the appropriateness of this, what appears to be a bookkeeping issue. You have heard the effort that is put in and shared, and which pocket it comes out to. I will examine whether or not that is relevant for more than just bookkeeping purposes.

With respect to the expertise question, I obviously have been supportive of a conscious decision to bring people into these positions with the qualities they have, with the belief that they will empower the people with the expertise within the appropriate departments, branches, divisions, to carry out their responsibilities with a maximum amount of freedom and capacity in an environment which is conducive to their being of maximum effectiveness.

The other thing that I have an expectation and have enc ouraged, if not mandated, is a very co-operative involvement with the experts outside government and in industry, in all the different component parts of industry and the academic community and the professional community with a view to maximizing expertise for the benefit of Manitobans. So I do not see

18 56 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr il 20, 19 97 there are any diminution. I see there is an enhancement in that kind of approach for the benefit of the mining commun ity and Manitobans generally. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter tell us how many staff members he has in total Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines as Executive Support here in the Legisla ture? Mr. Newman: The Executive Support for Energy and Mines is a total of five. Ms. Mihychuk: My question to the minister was: how many people work in his office as Minister responsible for Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines?

How many support staff does he have under Executive Support? That would include the special assistants, the appointments secretaries, et cetera, who work for the minis ter. Mr. Newman: Well, that will include all of the Executive Support staff for both Energy and Mines and Northern Affairs, because my staff and some of the deputy's staff all occupy one office, Room 314 in the Legislative Build ing, and the total is nine people. Ms. Mihychuk: For clarification, there are nine individuals. That includes the dep uty minis ter and various support staff.

So there would be four full-time salaries that are paid for under Northern Affairs. Mr. Newman: Yes, that is correct. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indicate of the support staff that he has whether their time spent is focused directly onto the department? Are the five individ uals who are identified here under Energy and Mines focused totally on providing support to Energy and Mines? Mr.

Newman: The appoi ntments secretary and the correspondence secretary and the deputy minister all have shared respo nsibili ties for all of the responsibilities that I have as minis ter in the several portfolios and designated other respon sibilities. Linda Gibson and Jodi Turner are in positions that are dedic ated to Energy and Mines, and Jodi Turner in addition to Hydro and CEDF . Ms. Mihychuk: So for clarification, there are three positions of the five that are shared under the two ministries, all responsibil ities, including Hydro, that are paid for out of Energy and Mines. Mr.

Newman: That is correct. * (1 530) Ms. Mihychuk: Well, the minis ter has indicated that he will review the staffing alloc ation and what would be appropriate.

I would urge him to also look at the support staff that he has and suggest that, again, here we have the department, a fairly small department, providing the support for other departments and that perhaps there would be more room in Energy and Mines, that perhaps from a reallocation we could look to another geologist being hired, more support, that we provide some finances so that we could expand or extend the field season to provide that base information that the mining industry says is so needed and urge the minis ter to look in terms of fairness and support, that maybe some of this could be reallocated. Mr.

Newman: I think that would, with respect, diminish the holis tic kind of approach. The last thing I want to be involved in, in my responsibilities in governmen t, is silo thinking, and I believe that it is beneficial to everyone involved in mining and benefiting from mining to have the kinds of holistic approaches which I believe are characteristic of the minis tries that I have respon sibili ty for. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, I seriously question the minister's statements and fairness because, obviously, this is a sector that is very significant to Manitoba's economy, very important to the government, very important to the workers and the aboriginal people in the North that are looking for leadership and divers ification.

It is an industry that deserves the province's attention, deserves senior support from the minis ter's office, and I would suggest that in terms of supporting the deputy minister's salary and the salaries of the appointment secretary, correspondence secretary, those things as well are coming out of one small department and providing supports to a variety of responsibilities that the minis ter has, which puts the onus on Energy and Mines.

April 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 57 It is clear that Energy and Mines also has needs and has seen reductions over the past 10 years, and there are certain areas of support that I have already identified. So I believe that I have nothing more to say about the minis ter's office. My position is on the record. Mr. Chairperson: Item 23.1 .(

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $287,600-pass; 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures $75,500. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the number of vacancies in the department? Would this be an appropriate place? It is sort of a general administrative question. Mr. Newman: Nine. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate where those vacancies are in the department? * (1 540) Mr. Newman: In the Adminis trative Services area there are two. The manager of financial services and the incumbent in that position, as I have noted, is presently acting as director of financial and administrative services. Accounts clerk is another one. In Marketing, a manager of information resources.

In Petroleum and Energy, engineering aide, Virden; petroleum engineer and, as was indicated earlier, two new program and policy analysts. In Geological Services, the chief geologist, sedimentary and industrial minerals and, as noted earlier, the incumbent is presently the acting branch director. Industrial minerals geologist is the ninth vacancy. Ms. Mihychuk: Is it the intention of the minister to fill all these nine positions? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: Are there any secondments or individuals on workers compensation in the depart ment? Mr.

Newman: There are two secondments out of the dep artment, one to Service First and the other one to Better Methods. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us for the record what these two programs involve? Mr. Newman: The first one, Service First, is working with the organization and development of a ma jor conference, organizing a national conference which will be in Manitoba for the kinds of initiatives that are related to our Service First Initiative.

The background of the individ ual who is in that function, I know, has been the primary person designated to lead our Mining and Minerals Convention over the past few years. The Better Methods secondment is in relation to the redesign of our accounting systems within the government. Ms. Mihychuk: I did not really, I do not think, get an answer to the first question, what is Service First? I now understand that the individual who has been released is preparing or working on the national conference but the program does-what is the purpose of this program Service First? Mr.

Newman: I do not know whether my staff could give all of the details on that, but, certainly, that is an initiative-[interjection] The Service First program, which is really directed out of the Premier's Office through Deputy Minister Don Leitch involves regulatory reform, balanced budget, Manitoba measures and Better Methods. That is the best

summary at this point that my staff could provide you with. Ms. Mihychuk: The individual who has been seconded to help in the preparation of this conference will be gone from the department for how long? Mr. Newma n: Until December of 19 99. I might say I ju st bumped into her today, and she keeps saying that she misses the department, but she really feels that she is learning lots. Ms. Mihychuk: The other individ ual who has been seconded to Better Methods, I would assume is coming out of the administrative section? Where is the individ ual coming out of, and how long will they be absent from the department? Mr.

Newman: The position comes out of the Mines Branch. It is an accounting clerk position, and the secondment ends in June of 19 99.

18 58 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 97 Ms. Mihychuk: The positiOns that these two individuals have left in the department leave holes, as you are well aware. The department hosted a very success ful mining conference that I believe occurs in November. In the Mines department, the accounts clerk also has a fairly hefty respons ibility. How is the department going to manage without those two individuals? Mr. Newman: Both positions have been filled, and the funding of those positions is through the auspices of Service First.

As I indicated from the anecdotal conversation I had at noon today just by chance, this is seen not only by the individuals but by the Service First Initiatives leaders and by our department as developmental opportunities. I might say that we think very highly of these people, and for them to not be present is going to be a long-term benefit to taxpayers and the department, and it gives other opportunities to others to work in those positions and reach another level of achievement. So we see this as a-I certainly see this as a win-win for all concerned.

Sometimes it is very healthy to open up these kinds of positions to challenge people that have been one step removed to being the leaders in those kinds of positions in the past. I would look forward to the Mining and Minerals Convention of November of 19 98 to be as good or better than what we have had in the past, because the person in that position was a tremendous role model and leader by example. Ms. Mihychuk: The two positions have now, I understand, been filled, their salaries being paid by the program Service First.

Did the department have the availabil ity to select their own candid ates to fill these positions? Mr. Newman: Yes, in both cases, it was an internal competition. Ms. Mihychuk: Movement like this in the department does not occur very often. I am a strong proponent of affirmative action in providing opportunities for First Nations women to get experience, perhaps in positions where they did not.

I understand that both of these positions were probably filled by women, so in this case I am not going to argue that we needed to fill with women, but perhaps it might be an opportunity to bring in some aboriginal people or other targets that we have as a department. Was there that oppor tunity in these two cases? Mr.

Newman: We feel very strongly an obligation as a government, and it has been certainly transmitted to my area of respons ibil ity for Energy and Mines, to obser ve very conscientiously the need to give appropriate opportunities for employment to aboriginal people, females, disabled people, visible minorities. In both instances, a female replaced a convention co ordina tor while she seconded, and a disabled person replaced the accounting clerk. Ms. Mihychuk: The line item that we are on includes Transportation, Communities, Supplies and Services, and Other Operati ng.

I noticed in the Estimates for the department that in virtually every department there is a note indicating the department is in the process of imp lementing the government-wide desktop management system. Is that also taking effect here in the Legisla ture for the minis ter? * (1 55 0) Mr. Newman: The note that you are referring to is on page 21, and its content does not affect the expenditure items that we are talking about on page 19 . Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter, in a general sense, tell us or explain the all ocations on page 21 and then further on pages 25, 27 and so on?

There are a number of expenditures related to the desktop management strategy. What is the impact of this program on the Department of Energy and Mines? It goes all the way through. Mr. Newm an: In October of 19 97, the Manitoba government signed a contract with SHL Systemhouse to provide services to all government departments related to desktop management. Desktop management encompasses all tasks assoc iated with buying, installing, configuring, maintaining and using personal computer hardware and software. It also incl udes training support, selected software programs, telephone support and desk-side support.

The support services are specifically designed to help employees resolve issues quickly, regardless of whether the problem is software or hardware related. The desktop

April 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 59 management contract also provides for maintenance and suppor t of all personal comp uter networks and associated printers. The specifics of the impacts on the Department of Energy and Mines are the changeover of ISO units, broken down as follows: seven units by June 30, 19 98, in Waskada and Virden; 14 units between July 1 and September 30, The Pas, Flin Flon, Thompson; and 12 9 units between January 1 and March 31, 19 99, at the Ellic e-Midland office.

The total cost of that transition process is $63,887, broken down: the seven units, $1 5, 077; the 14 units, $2 1 ,25 7; and, 12 9 units, $27, 553 is the impact. The anticipated savings, in terms of operational charges, namely the \vide area network charges, the savings anticipated is $1 8,000, and the salary savings are estimated at $34,700. Ms. Mihychuk: I am very interested in the overall contract and how it will serve the depar tment. Technology is very important to Energy and Mines.

There are a number of sectors that, of course, have to be computerized with the moving in terms of single desk access, getting other land information on-line. This has been an ongoing project. The department historically has had a support staff that included specialized computer programmers and technical support. Are those individ uals still with the department? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: How many computer support people does the department employ? Mr. Newman: Three. Ms. Mihychuk: Do those three individuals provide all the computer supports for the whole department? Mr.

Newman: The specialized needs of the department, design and implementation, are handled by those three people. Ms. Mihychuk: Is there contract work or servici ng being provided at the present time by Systemhouse? Mr. Newman: Not programming. Ms. Mihychuk: Is there troubleshooting and that type of support from Systemhouse? Mr. Newman: computers. Yes, with respect to desktop Ms.

Mihychuk: For more clarification, in terms of the Systemhouse contract, it is my understanding that there are three departments that are the pilots this year for the Systemhouse desktop initiative; that is Labour, Culture and Government Services. Can I ask why this department is already moving into the Systemhouse contract? Is that a vol untary decision on the basis of the department? Mr.

Newman: The timing for the impact of the government-wide desktop management strategy in the Department of Energy and Mines is later than in many, maybe most, if not all, of the other departments, because this department is further advanced than other departments because of historic initiatives. As a result, it will not be till near the end, in March of 19 99, that we would be brought fully onstream. The departments with greater needs that are further behind are being given priority. Ms. Mihychuk: Why is the department contracting services from Systemhouse at this time? Mr. Newman: government.

It is a corporate decision of Ms. Mihychuk: Are the three employees presently in the computer department expected to continue working after the System house desktop program is implemented in the department? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: In the past, before contracting out was given to Systemhouse, how many computer support people were there in the department? Mr. Newman: There was one additional position. Ms. Mihychuk: Has the department lost any employees to Systemhouse? Mr. Newman: Systemhouse has gained an employee, that particular employee, as a result of that.

18 60 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 19 97 Ms. Mihychuk: What is the cost of the service contracting out that the department is undertaking for this year? * (1 600) Mr. Newman: I have given you the transition costs for this year of $63,887. The total cost of implementing the program, gross, again, in other words, a comparable figure to the $63,000 through 19 99-2000 fiscal year as well, are $385, 17 6, which includes the $63,887. Ms. Mihychuk: The costs that the department is incurring in terms of troubleshooting and contracting services, I understand the min ister to quote $63,000.

Would that be accurate? Mr. Newman: That is correct. Ms. Mihychuk: With the addition of one employee, was the department able to provide all the trouble shooting and supports neces sary in the department? Mr. Newman: I am advised, no, that one individual could not do what Systemhouse will be providing. Ms. Mihychuk: The four individuals who were in the computer department in the past, has that been the regular number of employees, let us say, during the last five years? Mr.

Newman: I am advised that the regular component going back five years or more until a year or two ago was three, and the fourth position was added within the last two years. Ms. Mihychuk: That fourth position presumably provided extra supports to the department in terms of computers and getting the department on line and more modernized. Mr. Newman: That is an accurate assessment. Ms. Mihychuk: During that time, did the dep artment have to contract out to get servicing for trouble shooting? Mr. Newman: No. Ms. Mihychuk: Did the individual, that one position-well, let me put it another way.

What was the salary of that position. for that compu ter-support person? Mr. Newman: Mr. Chairperson, $34,700, including benefits. Ms. Mihychuk: So if I understand correctly, the department had in-house expertise for computer management. It takes awhile, I understand, for the computer programmers to become literate, as well, in terms of geological jargon, the needs of the department, and the technical aspect of the department as well as the computer knowledge which they already have. That individ ual-we had four individuals in the department, and they were able to provide all the services.

Now we have three people and we contract out for services. It seems to me that it was a cheaper deal in the past had we kept that individual for $34,000, let us round it up, $35, 000 . We were able to maintain and update and. as you say, be one of the most current departments in the government. Now we contract out, and for this year alone we are paying almost $64,000 for services to provide troubleshooting, and that is from Systemhouse. Would the minister agree with that assessment? *( 1610 ) Mr.

Newman: I have been a beneficiary of a presentation by Systemhouse, so I have been able to see what they claim to offer, and the expectation is that the kind of , as I understand it, seven- day-a-week, 24-hour a-day expert coverage which benefits from the high volume of experience with a uniform system will result in a higher and more available quality of service and also meet what could be a high volume of competing demands which one person was not and has not been able to service up to the standard which is envisa ged under the new system. Ms.

Mihychuk: As I understand it, the service contract is for the provision of troubleshooting and other services for the systems that the department has in place presently. The future, I would expect, would inclu de upgrades of the system, but for the present time it is the units that they already have. So is it not true that the

Ap ril 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1861 department was able to serve itself by having a component of four individuals for almost $30,000 less annually? Mr.

Newman: I am advised from the people who work in the branch day in and day out that the demands under the current system were somewhat disruptive because you would want immediate attention, and any conscientious worker, and they all are, wants to have, you know, a quick response, advice, so that they can get productivity out ofthe system, so from time to time that involved going to the nearest geologist or someone else who had perhaps the troubleshooting kind of expertise to supplement what I said was an inadequate capacity of one individual to meet those needs.

My staff here are advising that they see this as a superior solution to that experience. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the department anticipating that the service contract or the cost of the service will increase next year? Mr. David Faurschou, Act ing Chairpe rson, in the Chair Mr. Newman: I am advised that the cost per unit will remain constant, but because of the numbers, the aggregate cost will increase. Ms. Mihychuk: Next year, I understand it, the department will not be fully under the new SHL program, or that you will be one of the last departments to enter it.

So wiJ.I there be one full year, another year, where the department will be accessing service contracts from Systemhouse but on an as-need basis rather than going into the whole program? Mr. Newman: By April 1, 19 99, we will be full y on the Systemhouse support for desktop. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the department required to purchase the hardware? In an earlier question, the minister presented that there are 150 units that will be changing and that the amount added up to almost $60,000, I believe. Is it part of the contract that the department has to upgrade its hardware on its own? Mr.

Newman: Of the four years remaining in the Systemhouse contract, if we are satisfied with what is provided through that contract, that is included in our costs; but if we want to do more than that, we would have to fund that out of the department. After the four years, we do not know what the situation will be because we cannot look into a crystal ball and determine what will be in place after that. Ms. Mihychuk: For continued clarification, the minister identified seven units to be replaced in 1998 for Waskada for a cost of, I believe, $1 5,000. Is this part of the Systemhouse desktop management program? Mr.

Newman: I have indicated, I think, Waskada and Virden for those seven units. That was the $15, 077, which was part of the $63,887, and then the 14 units for The Pas, Flin Flon and Thompson, which was $21 ,257. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why seven units are costing the department $15,000, while at the Ellice office, 29 units are costing $27,000? Are these capital costs for replacing the machines? I am still not clear as to what the contract actually requires of the department. Mr.

Newman: Maybe to help both of us and the public understand this, a per-unit cost is roughly $2,660 for a year and that works out to $22 1. 66 per month. The timing for the transition with respect to the units is the factor which results in the figures, so the 129 units represents one month between January 1 and March 31, 1999, but it is only one month of costs, and the 14 units represents six months, and the seven units represents 10 months. Ms. Mihychuk: Will the department be receiving new hardware as part of this program? Mr. Newman: Yes. *

(1620) Ms. Mihy chuk: Those units are going to be acquired through a special operating agency, I understand, called Gismo. Would that be accurate? Mr. Newman: I do not know. I like the name though. Ms. Mihychuk: I wish to thank the department and the minister because this is an important issue, I think, for

1862 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri l 20, 1997 Manitobans. We are moving into something that is of substantial cost to the government, we are looking at significant upgrades, so I wish to thank them for their patience as I try to figure out what the program is all about. I will be asking the government to provide the opposition with the opportunity for a briefing session through Systemhouse so that we do not torture every minis ter through this type of questioning, but it is impor tant, it is significant.

It is a major initiative that the government is undertaking, and if somehow the light turns off in my brain, I feel like I have an idea of what the program is, but I would ask the minister's indulgence, and perhaps there will be additional questions later on. I am just about done here. I would like to ju st continue in terms of this first area we are in, Executive Support. Can the minister indicate to us whether he is expecting to do significant visits to mining companies, where he is going, how many companies he is planning to meet with in the upcoming year? Mr.

Newman: While I am waiting for my staff to provide an answer to that question, I ju st wanted to respond to it in a broader way to help you and the public understand how we have been going about interacting with mining companies. I have very much an open-door policy to have, in effect, what I describe as my annual meetings with companies that contribute to the well-being of the province through taxes and jobs and otherwise, so those sorts of meetings will continue as normal .

But what I have tried to do with the department is to accommodate people in the industry to the greatest extent possible, our belief being that they do the best work when they are concentrating on their mining businesses, and if we can efficiently utilize their time to the maximum, we take advantage of that.

So, for example, the Mining and Minerals Convention, I dedicated last year all of my time, even lived in the hotel during the convention, because they in effect have come to Manitoba, they have come to Winnipeg and they want to access all the technical staff, they want to access me, they want to access the management people, and we virtually did that, except for sleep, around the clock.

So that is a splendid opportunity. * (1 630) Another example of what we do is we will go to them, and we went to the Prospectors and Developers Assoc iation conference in Toronto and hosted a breakfast meeting where I was able to interact, but staff were there and interacted throughout that conference. Again, they are aware, the people are, in the industry. The other thing that we have done is we have sought out, particularly, new players in Manitoba or ones that we are trying to induce to come to Manitoba. Staff do that on a regular basis.

I personally am involved whenever it is seen to be that extra edge, the competitive advantage, and did that on several, I guess, three different excursions during my first year as a minis ter. The other thing is I interact with the industry col lectively through the mining association on a regular, communicative basis. Again, that is an efficient way for the industry to interact with me because they have staff who are paid to do that on behalf of the players. They do that on an executive director's-the full-time staff people have an open line.

I have no hesitation speaking to them and meeting with them whenever they think it is appropriate. Another regular meeting is, for example, whenever they meet with the Finance minister or they meet with any other minis try, I am inclu ded in those meetings. In addition to that, now that my staff have-the short answer to the specific question as to what my involvement will be in this fiscal year, that has not been finalized yet, but there will be a plan for visits whereby we will have a direct interaction with the industry. Those will include the PDAC meeting in Toronto.

Again, they are working on a Northwest Mining Association conference in Spokane and the Cordil leran conference in Vancouver. It is anticipated that I will be making one-on-one visits in Vancouver and Toronto again this year. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indicate where he travelled last year-he indicated three trips that he made as special visits-and indicate the costs of those three trips? I am referring specifically to the Transportation line item, which has allocated $30,000. So the minister took three trips last year. Can he indicate where and what was the cost of those three trips? Mr.

Newman: Going in reverse order of dates, I attended the Nunavut mining symposium in Cambridge

April 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1863 Bay, Northwest Territories, March 27-29. I attended the Prospectors and Developers Association meeting in Toronto, and I attended the October 9, 1997, in Calgary, and met with four mining companies. Sorry, there is a fourth one that I met with; I went to Vancouver September 25, 26, and met with about a dozen mining companies. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister, for the record, indicate the allocation, the cost of those four trips as a budget item? Mr. Newman: I will undertake to get that information for the next day we meet.

My officials will have to put that together. I might say that to those conf erences we had a team approach. I was with one of the customer service people, Gary Ostry, in Vancouver, and Gary Ostry in Calgary, and the Prospectors and Developers in Toronto. I went to that-hosted that breakfast meeting 7 a.m. Monday morning in Toronto and came back the same day to be in the Legislature, but staff were there throughout.

Then the Nunavut mining symposium-! led a group of people, two people besides myself from the department, one person from Hydro, and another person from Department of Hig hways, on a multipurpose mission to Cambridge Bay in the Northwest Territories. Ms. Mihychuk: Well, clearly we do not have a scandal. The minister did not go to London, it appears, or anywhere exotic like Hawaii. The minister has been travell ing in mining communities, and I say that with some fun because I know that the minister is quite dedicated, and did not expect any type of elaborate trips.

But there is an allocation in the budget of $30,000. I wonder if the minister could indicate if we were over, under, or approximately at that level, whether this allocation was spent last year, and whether we anticipate that money will be spent this year. Mr. Newman: I am advised that we are under budget, but we can certainly give you the particulars of those expenses. It looks like any exotic trips were enjoyed by hardworking, conscientious staff of Energy and Mines. Ms. Mihychuk: They went to London. Mr. Newman: I will be interested in finding out, too. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what is involved under the Supp lies and Services and Other Operating lines in this budget allocation? Mr. New man: You would like a breakdown of all categories: Transportation, Communications, Supplies and Services, and Other? Ms. Mihychuk: Perhaps my question is actually unnecessary since I see at the back of our Estimates book an outlining of the expenditure areas, and I would take that as sufficient detail. Mr. Newman: In response, on page 51 of the Estimates book is a definition of Supplies and Services and a definition of Other Operating.

I can certainly provide you with a breakdown of the particular compo nents to those two categories and others, Transportation, Commu nications, if you wish. Ms. Mihychuk: While we are talking about travel of rich and famous people, I want to ask the minister if he had an opportunity to visit any of the department's geologists in their field locations last year. Mr. Newman: I visited the offices-and I visited several mine sites, but we have a plan this year to visit all operating mines in the province.

I am really looking forward to visiting people actually out in the field doing expl oration work, drilling and otherwise. I think I could very easily become an enthusiast for the kind of pursuit that you foll owed before you came into your elected position. So I look forward to doing that and do consider it to be important that I do that. That is what I have done as a matter of practice at every opportunity to try and ge

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-33
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 33.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	8243786963432c0ebb3f746d1487b0ed2a896369

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