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~1arch 13, 1981 The House met' at 10:00 A.M. iYir. Spea..l<;er in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s) : Tape 354 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier.

I have received a letter fran a committee in the Premier's district, in which they specifically asked me to bring up in the House of Assembly their concerns about the school facilities in their district and some apparent misunderstanding between the committee and the Premier; and that they had a meeting with 500 people - asked the Premier if he would attend the meeting. I have been asked to attend the same meeting-and they have asked me to bring it up in the House and ask the Premier. And the Premier knows I am going to bring this up, I told him about it.

They asked if I would ask the Premier if he would support their request and if he would indicate a time when he can attend the meeting·in his district to discuss the school problem. MR. NEARY: Too busy with oil. c1R. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am in touch with the committee that the han. the Leader of the Opposition refers to.

As a matter of fact, about four and one-half or five weeks ago, I visited the school and spent two hours at the school, and not only that school, but a number of schools in that area, the King's Point-Harry's Harbour area, and I am totally familiar with the circumstances surrounding the present move now to get a meeting. I have been in touch with the Salvation Army officer in King's Point in the last three 1 J 0 7 ' l

:·larch 13, 1981 Tape 354 EC - 2 PRE~IER PECKFORD: or four days trying to arrange a mutual time for a meeting, and we are still in the process of working out a suitable time. So I have visited the area and have supported their request over the last three or four months and have been in the school. ~!R. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. :Y!R. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ~R. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad that there is an example in the - I saw the same si bl?.tinn when I vlils ''I there during the leadership campaign - I am glad that there is a situation in the Premier's district,as there is il" my C:istrict of schools that are grossly inadequate and that brings up the concerns that my colleague, who has a medical appointment this morning and could not be here, but he has been asking the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) . In view of these kinds of concerns, Mr.

Speaker, that have been expressed, can the Premier give this House-and the parents of these children all over the Province and the school authorities, who I understand are now releasing publicly some of the concerns that they have expressed to the minister as far back as November - can the Premier assure us that money will be made available this year to bring these primary/elementary schools up to the standard requested by these educational authorities without taking any money from this expanded high school programme?

Can they give a definite assurance that monies will be provided in the Budget to look after the inadequate schools in his district, in my district and, I would imagine, in most of the other districts? ''I ·1 u c e

March l3, 1981 Tape No. 355 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the. question posed by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) shows a total lack of understanding of how educational capital financing is done in this Province. Each year the Government of Newfoundland provides substantial capital funds to the Denominational Educational Committees who then,in consultation with the school boards,decide on how and when and where that mopey is to be spent. The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador does not decide on what school is built in a given district.

That is why I cannot·give a guarantee to the people of King's Point or t~e people of Hare Bay or to the people of LaPoile or to the people of any part of this Province. We provide the capital funds and we will be providing the capital "'1nds again this year, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: That is what we are talking about . PREMIER PECKFORD: I can guarantee the Leader of the Opposition that additional capital funds will be provided as they are every year for school construction around this Province .

Then the priorities as to what schools get done in any given year are entirely up to the Denominat;i.onal Educational Committees and the school boards ,because we believe in the decentralization of education so that local people on school boards who understand the local conditions better than people in the Department of Education,should be the ones to decide upon the needs and the priorities in a given district or a different area of the Province.

That is the way the educational system is arranged; we provide the funds and then the Denominational Educational Committees and the school boards decide what school is going to be built in what community in what year at what time. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader of ·1 u G 9 ..

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 355 SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, it seems as though the government has decided that their tactic, their technique, on anything they do not want to deal with is to say, 'Well, they just do not understand'- that is the technique-and then they will pass the buck. MR. NE~~Y: It is worse than that. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, everybody understands in our denominational system of education the decisions are made by the DEC and they would gladlv make those decisions, Mr.

Speaker, but in this letter which I received from the Chairman of the committee in the Premier's district-and I hope that he will be protected hecause he has spoken out; he is the principal of a school - but he says - SOME HON. ~r'!BERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. STIRLING: MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - "But you know the story. The IEC's - We are not the Liberals . Order, please! I must bring to the attention of the han. the Leader of the Opposition Standing Order 31 (

d) which states, "Oral questions must not be prefaced by the reading of letters, telegrams, newspaper extacts or

preambles of any kind." MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I do respect the rules of the House,but it is very frustrating,as you can appreciate, Mr. Speaker, that these people do not understand that you cannot read a letter in the House in Question Period. Let me ask the question then of the Premier, is the Premier aware that various parts of the DEC, the IEC for example, have indicated to the people in his own district that last ·1 J '! 0

.. ~larch 13, 1981 Tape No. 356 EL - l 11R. STIRLING: year the money pro'Tided by the .;overnrnent in total was not suff- icient even to pay the interest on the money that they owed for school construction. Is the Premier aware that this information is corning out from the IEC, that there is no problem in deciding on separate schools or which school~ but that the problem is the ... government has not provided anywhere near enough money to look after even the most desperate situation as is indicated in the Premier's district and in my district? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR.

STIRLING: Is the Premier aware of that? L'!R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PRD1IER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I regret that the Leader of the Opposition in his

preamble to his question saw fit to .. question the integrity of mysel: a.11d this government in how it operates and how - SO!-!E HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: - teachers are hired and fired in this Province. I think it the lowest of the low for the Leader of the Opposition to get on like that. But let me tell him if·he wants . ., to drag himself and his side of the House down below what is considered to be decent behavior in this House, he will be there alone because this side does not intend to engage in such debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opp- osition had better get his facts right if he is going to talk about what the DECs are saying and what they are not saying and what kind of money is being provided. May I answer the direct question with another question. Is the Leader of the Opposition aware that the ., \.; ., I ..

~!"':::- ch 13 , 19 81 Ta;oe :.Jo. 356 EL - 2 PRFMIER PECKFORD: integrated school committee of the DECs i~ consultation with the school board, the Green Bay Integrated School Board 1has approved a million dollar extension for the Saie Verte I~tegrated High School called Beothuk Collegiate? :-IR. STIRLDiG: ilr. Speaker. ~-iR. SPEAKr'R (Simm s): of the Opposition. 2'-IR. STIRLHlG: ~ supplementary, the hon. the Leader Mr. Speaker, speaking of rules, I would gladly answer the question if the Premier would like to change positions. SOe1E EON. HENBERS: C<!R. SPEAKER: c'!R. STIRLING: Oh, oh!

Order, please~ But I do not believe, Nr. Speaker, I would have to have a ruling from the Chair - Is it permitted for the Premier to ask the Leader of the Opposition questions in Question Period: I would be glad to answerit if the Chair woulG rule on that. ~!R. SPFAKER: I assume the hon. the Leader, then, rose on a point of order, did he? To the point of order, no, I would rule that questions are not allowed to be asked of members of the Opposition. My

interpretation of what transpired is that the hon. the Premier answered your question with a question. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: P!?.E~!IER PECKFORD : ~o the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Premier. To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I am glad some of the students are in the Galleries. "'!1e question that I posed was a r-hetorical question,for the Leader of the Opp­ osition's benefit, it •vas a rhetorical question which meant to indicate by its nature and by the facts contained therein, that there is money available in the Green Ba~ Integrated School Board because they have just commited a million dollars for an expansion ,1 'i r; '-! I C. .. , 'I

Narch 13, 1981 P~~ER PECKFORD : ~q . STIRLING : ~ffi . SPEAKER (Simms) : ?·m. . STIRLING : morning . MR. S?EAKER: Tape No . 356 EL - 3 to a school in that district. Mr . Speaker . To the point of orde~? Oh, no.We could keep that going all ;.;ell , I gave a ruling on the point of ordez: . I presume the Premier rose 0:1 anot:her point of orce r. I am not sure if it was a point of order,but perhaps a point of explanation . ~L~. 1-TA.RI~.EN : c·L~ . SPEAKER : o: the Opposition . ~A~q . STIRLING : A Ministerial Statem ent. A supplementar y, ~~e hon. the Leader Tha nk you very much, Mr . Speaker . I recognize the Premier as the leading expert 'll) 'J 3 .. •• 1 .,

'1arch 13, 1981 Tape No. 357 m~ - 1 c1R. L. STI"R.LING: in rhetorical questions. Unfortunately that is how he has been trying to govern this Province,with rhetoric instead of fact. Now, Mr. Speaker, a sup?lementary auestion.

Will the Premier now give the information to this House and the assurance to this House,to the DEC,that the DEC will get the same kind of money provided;as he has just indi­ cated has been provided for his own dis~r~ct,in order to bring these inadequate facilities up to standard, and the same concerns expressed by people to ·his minister about the lack of money to bring the standards up to standard before they get into an expanded Grade XII orogramme? Will the Premier now commit himself to putting in the additional money that has been requested by the DEC? '1R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Soeaker, I shall assure,as the 111inister of Education (Ms. Verge) has done frr>m time to time and the ~.<:inister of Health (Mr. House) from time to time, that we intend to continue the very aggressive proqrru~me of caoital financing to education in this Province that has been started, that we began last year, that we ~ill continue this year, and that all parts of this Province -~ot my district or the Leader of the Opposition's (1\1r. Stirling) district neces­ sarily-qill be treated fairly and equally in the disbursement of capital funds.

And we will do our utmost 1 as we have proven in the last year and a half,to do our utmost to see that all parts of this Province get an equal share of the caoital dollar that is available to education. MR. L. STIRLING: '1R. S PE.Z\.KER: Leader of the Opoosition. A final supplementary, Mr. Soeaker. A final suoolementary, the hon. 'I J ·: ~ .. , '1 ''j

,,arch 13 , 1981 Tape Xo . 357 m·1 - 2 ~fR . L . STIRLING: 1·1oulc the Premier and the :-tinister of Ecucation (Ms . '7erge) be prepared to - SO'{£ E!ON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! ~L~. SPF.~R (Simm s): Order , please ! ~R . L. ST:RLI~G : - ta~le and encourage the DEC to give to this House of Asse mbly the full facts of the actual state of t~e facilities in educacion in this Province?

And ~ould the ?remier agree to table the reouests and the co~ents ~ace by people in the various school boards across this Province ex?ressing concerns about the inadequacy of funds being made available for these caoital constructions that ,.,e referred to earlier? Nill t.'te J:>remier table thi s information? M!L SPEAKER : Th e hon . the Premier . ., Ll'l 5 •. I ., •. I

""- )!arch 13, 1981 Tape No. 358 so - 1 PREN!ER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, \ve are in the process now, as the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) said the other day, of assessing and getting reports in from school boards around the Province as it relates to capital construction programmes over the next four or five or six or ten years. l1R. HODDER: last year. PREMIER PECKFORD: The minister told us that That in~ormation is being assessed by the goverr~ent and in due course we will be announcing our programme for ongoing capital construction in this Province.

And during the Budget debate, after the Budget is brought down, the various members of the Opposition and the members of the back bench on this side will have an opportunity to question and query the Minister of Education on the disbursement of capital funds for education in the primary, elementary and secondary and post-secondary areas. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. PREMIER PECKFORD: And it is at that point in time that that kind of information would be available. Right now that information is in the Department of Education and with the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) and is being used as evidence to support ongoing capital funding for education in this Province. The hon. member for Port au Pert. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. HODDER: ~r. Sneaker, a question for the Forest Resources and Lands(Mr.Power) .I understand hon. Minister of there are 687 barrels of matacil which are stored in Bunker 630 on Igloo Road in Stephenville. I would like to ask the minister if there is any danger of spillage or if the matacil has been recanned this year? "'!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands . MR. POWER : 2-!r.

Speaker, in reality are 689 barrels of matacil stored at Ste phenv ille. They have '\ J I G 'I 'I 'I

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 358 SD - 2 MR. POI'JER: been rebarrelled according to prescribed requlations laid down by the federal environment people and the producers of the chemical. We will be using that chemical in the spray programme this year. It is perfectly safe and checked daily. ~1R. HODDER: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, this particular matacil was used in the spray programme in 1977 and was canned the year before that. The manufacturer's label said that these particular barrels should have been recanned last year.

I would just like to refer the minister to his own statement of April 22, 1980, when he said that"if the matacil is not sold by the Fall then we will have to get involved in re­ barrelling~' Now last Fall was six months ago, Mr. Speaker. I will ask the minister why the discrepancy,when a year ago he said that the matacil would have to be recanned by the Fall at the latest-and that was six months ago. Would the minister explain t~e discrepancy between his statement last year and the statement he just made? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, as I have said, we check the barrels on a daily basis, it is checked by the environment people, we have had the manufacturers come back to look at the barrels. They recommend to us, as the persons who should know, that there is no necessity of re­ barrelling at this time, that it is safe, We have had the environmental people check i~ on a daily basis, it is under a fairly secure system in Stephenville and obviously, Mr.

Speaker, when it comes to deciding whether the thing should be rebarrelled or not we can only go to the environmental experts and the manufacturers of that chemical, all persons who tell us there is no necessity for rebarrelling. 'I U ·1 7 . ''f ,, 'I ·,

March 13, 1981 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Tape 359 EC - 1 A supplementary, the han. the I would just like to point out to the minister, I spoke to the environmental people in Corner Brook. They have been inspecting the bunker; they have not been inside the bunker. And also, the officials in Stephenville who hold the key, that these cans have been looked at. Mr. Speaker, I would point out as well that you cannot see inside of a can and that these have not been inspected on a daily basis. The minister is incorrect. Mr.

Speaker, I will ask the minister again, what will happen, when will this be recanned? What pre­ cautions will be taken when th~se cans are moved, :lr. Speaker, these cans which were barrelled prier to the last spray programme, at least a year before the spray programme, and the manufacturer's label at that time said that they should have been rebarrelled last year~ MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I can only reiterate what the manufacturers of the chemicals have been telling us and what the environment people are telling us, that the barrels are checked daily, that they are perfectly safe as they are now, - MR. HODDER: That is not true. MR. POWER: - there has been no leakage. The manufacturers,who may have put the label on,also come back and tell us there is no need for rebarrelling at this time.

We are following and will be following this Summer every environmental rule that has been laid down for the use of chemicals, either in storage or in spraying,and there is nothing more that this government can do. ·lt.J'IO ''I

March 13, 1981 HR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Tape 359 EC - 2 A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementar y, the hon. Just a very short question. Would the minister tell me what the labels on the cans said when they received them for the 1977 spray programme, when they received them in 1976, what those labels said? How many years were they supposed to lastbefore recanning? MR. SPEAKER: Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: The hon. the !>1inister of Forest Mr.

Speaker, I suppose the labels on the cans are a recommendation of a certain procedure that the companies would like to use. We have also had another recommendation from them telling us that there is no necessity for rebarrelling at this time. If the member is suggesting that we should go to the environmental people and to the manufacturers of the chernical,who all tell us there is no necessity for rebarrelling that spray, and at the same time you go out and waste government money to do it, then, Mr. Speaker, that is not our way of doing things. MR. HODDER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HODDER: ~1R. SPEAKER: Port. MR.

HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Sp~aker. You have had ycur final. Yes, I know. The hon. the member for Port au Mr. Speaker, I will just ask the minister if he would table the original labels, the inspection slips and let us know the frequency at which these cans have been inspected and table any information which he has on this particular chemical. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, we have followed all of the recommendations of the chemical producers, we have '] 0 "i 9

~!arch 13 , 1981 Tape 359 EC - 3 ~1R . PO\\E~ : ::ollO\\e c t:te reco:n.'!\endat :..ons o:: the environ.'Tient: people . i'>'e lvill not be re!:la:::relling c.he spray . As I sal.d, we will be using it t:::.s Su:':U'iie::- in ~he spray programme . NR . NEARY : ~l r. Sj:>eaker . ~!R . SP'SA..'<2R (Si:nm s) : ?he ~on . ~he ~~ube::- !or ~a?o~le . ~lR . :-.'E.:;.RY : :-~= . Spea~er, ·"'·cc.lC. ~:te :.1~:1is"Cer of Tou ris m care to tell the Eou se when moosa licence appli ­ cation s will go out this yea r and the eead~i~e !or retu_-ning chese ap?lications? ~IR. SPEil.KER: 1"\R .

WIND SOR : T::e han . cne :·:i.'"lister o: ?our ism . :>!.r . Speaker , I l·lould like to in!o::m the hen . :nember t..'llat the :·liniste:: of ':'ou=i sm is not respo:1sib!e :or wildli!e; t:he ~·1inister o! Recreatio:1, C:..:lture a:-::: Y0 1Jt:h (:•!r. oa·we) is . :-1R . NE..::>.RY : :·!r . Speaker . ~ . SPEAAER: ?he hon . t:te maT~e= !o= ~a?oi!e . MR • W'c.ARY : I ·,.;ould ask the hon . the :·!iniscer of Recreati:>n , Culture and Yocth to ans...,•er t:he c:,uesc:.on . 'l ~' ) ''1 ..,

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 360 D\1 .)- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Si~ms): The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. R. DAWE: Thank you, Hr. SJ?eaker. The end of March will be the dead­ line for the capability testing for this present year, that is for new hunters who wish to enter the draw system. The aoplications then will be sent out from the department some time in April, and people will be required, as in other years, to submit their a9olications as soon as possible and they will be informed before the end of June whether, in fact, they have been successful. t>lR. S. NEARY: ~R. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S.

NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Would the minister care to inform the House what the fee will be this year for a moose license? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. R. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, when the applications are forwarded to the people concerned they will be informed of what the fee will be. SO~~ HON. ~MBERS: Oh, oh! ~-LR. S • NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. \1'R. S. NEARY: A final supplementary, !Iocr. Speaker. A final supp~ementary, the han.

I am goi,nq to be a little more specific with the hon. qentleman and ask the minister if it is correct that the fee has qone from twenty dollars up to fifty dollars, that it will cost, instead of twenty dollars ~s last year,that it will cost fifty dollars this year for a moose license? 'l l] 2 1 . .., . . .. ,

'rc:.rc~ ' ~ -~, 1981 Tape No. 360 D\•7 - 2 c'!~. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. ~inister of Recreation, Culture and ?outh. \IR. '.'l.. D.:;.ri/E: No, Mr. Speaker. SOME EON. "!EY!BERS: Oh, oh! "CR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Barbe. :"IR. T. BEcl?'JETT: .!''r. Speaker, my question is directed to the ~inister of Social Services. ~·1r. Sneaker, I am in communica- tion with a student who lives with her mother on $250 welfare a month. This student has recentlv been accepted into trade school and with such short notice has been unable to make ao- ~lication and, of course, get aoproval for student aid of any kind.

She, I understand, has applied to your department looking =or aid to buy books and "'"··thing else that might equip this student to qo to t.raoe school , and I understand she has been comoletely turned dovm, flat.\vould the minister care to comment? . "'?.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services . C<!R. T. EICKEY: ~r. Speaker, it is not correct that the student or the family •tlaS turned down flat. My staff do not turn people down flat, they interpret the reculations - :"!R. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) to buy second-hand books or something like that '-'tR. T. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I be cermitted to answer the question so that my hen. friend can hear? ~y staff interprets the oolicy of the deoartment; if they can help they do,if they cannot they say why,and they suggest alternate nrop­ ositions which miaht assist the family in auestion and in this case the student. The social worker, in this carticular instance, could not assist under existing policy. ..., ._ £.. .,1 . ''I ''I

March 13, 1981 TApe No. 361 EL - 1 MR. HICKEY : There is no policy to provide free books for students in un­ iversity, vocational schools or the technical college where there are student loans available. We do provide schools books to students in all the other school system at all grades and so on. Further to that, Mr.

Speaker, my staff informed the student that they would give the student a cert­ ificate acknowledging the circumstances of the family, outlining the circumstances of the family, ~mich could be taken to the school hopefully with the intent that the books could be supplied until arrangements could be made under- a student loan which would cor­ rect the situation. That is where is stands. We have not been asked - there has not been any further contact. The lady was also told, as I understand it, if there were any further problems or if this could not be worked out to come back or to let us know. MR. BENNETT: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Probably the student "aS not turned down flat-but she was turned down. So what else, you know, if the student is turned down? What else, you know, if the student is turned down? And apparently the student is only, Mr. Speaker, looking for a loan,an interim loan, a means to get into trade school.

Now, if there is no policy in place to accomodate this need,which is of a general nature across the Province, would the minister explain why there is no policy in place and will the minister be implementing a policy or does 'll] 2 3 . ''! 'I

.. March 13, 1981 Tape No. 361 EL - 2 MR. BENNETT: the minister want to keep these people on perpetual welfare? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon.~he Minister of Social Services. .. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have mellowed with the years. I am not going to rise to that last comment. The hon. gen- tleman is well a~vare of the record of this administration with regards to keeping people on welfare. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKEY: In fact, the hon. gentleman and people- ~1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

HICKEY: - on tDe other side of the House are "I well aware of the fact of how many people this administration takes off welfare anc puts into gainful employment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h<>ar! MR. HICKEY: Further to that, Mr. S9eaker SOME HON. ME!.ffiERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: - if hon. gentlemen on the other side are not aware of those programmes I woulC. be pleased to give them detailed facts, figures for all of the years since the Liberal Government went out of office. it is a shining record, becoming better each year. MR. NE~RY: I would not boast about it if I were you. Now, Mr.

Speaker, to the point and to MR. HICKEY: the question. The hon. gentleman is aware of the fact that the s::>c- ial assistance programme is not the end-all and be-all to solve all problems,and each case is dealt on its owm merit. Policies can " never be so all-embracing as to solve all problems. We make our decisions on the basis of the merits of the case and 1 as I have in- dicated earlier,we have not refused the student absolutely. The .. , . . , tJ 2 4

~larch 13, 1981 Tape NO. 361 EL - 3 HR.HICKEY: social worker interpreted the regul- ations and the policy,which is all he could have done. It came to our attention at headquarters from one of his colleagues yes­ terday. ·1 J 2 5 .. , 'I

t-1arch 13, 1981 Tape 362 EC - l ~1R. HICKEY: And my director of inquiries, as I understand it, informed that gentleman that if the student was not taken care of through the system at the school in terms of the books being provided, then to let us know and we would take another look at it to see that something would be done on a temporary basis so that at least the student could attend the college. And that is where it is. Now, I do not know anything more than that.

If the hon. gentleman has information, he should pass it on to me so that maybe we can get the matter sorted out - maybe pass it on to me, in fact, instead of expecting me to make a decision in this Legislature for all the Province to hear about. MR. BENNETT: l<IR. SPEAKER (Simms): the member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. t-lr. Speaker, my final supple.'!lentary to the minister. I remember when the Liberal Party went out and along with the outgoing of the Liberal Party went the $200 mother's allowance - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BENNETT: - that in the Fall of the year or on any occasion helped students - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BENNETT: - with the purchasing of books and wearing apparel or whatever to get them into school. Would the minister consider now having that mother's allowance reinstated, especially to those people who so desperately need it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, that question really is - I am not sure if it is even a question. There was no mother's allowance in place in my department. There was a political 'll] 2 6 . ''I 'I •·a ''i

March 13, 1981 MR. HICKEY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. HICKEY: Tape 362 allowance - Hear, hear! EC - 2 - which was established by the former administration, put in place on the eve of an election - SOME HON . ~1E~1BERS : Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: - which was done away with and the money of which was used to help the poor and the poverty­ stricken and the low-income people of this Province by this administration. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: And those dollars, ~. Speaker, have gone back into the pockets of the poor of this Province two or three hundred times over. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR .

SPEA KER (Simms ): questions. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! A supplementary, t-1r. Speaker. We have time for a couple of short The hon. the member for LaPoile. It is just a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. This particular case that is under discussion now, the young lady in the district of St. Mary's -_The Capes, I believe has been adequately handled by my colleague, the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr.

Hancock) and but for him, the young lady would not have gotten into the College of Trades and Technology, and I would submit to the Premier that the first one of his medals be given to my bon. colleague, the hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member has a supplementary, I believe. He should-put it. MR. NEARY: I want to ask the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) about this emergency assistance - MR. WARREN: Fifty dollars. :-tR. NEARY: - the fifty dollars that the ·1 u 2 7 '"I .. , .. , '"I

t>!arch 13, 1981 Tape 362 EC - 3 1-lR. NEARY: minister can give under the regu1ations.ynder the Social Assistance Act 1 the minister has it in his power to grant up to fifty dollars in case of emergency. Is the minister using this particular provision of the regulations of the act or is he just ignoring it? How often does he use it and under what circumstances does he use it? ·1 :.J 2 0 ''I ''I . .. ''I

.)-larch l3, 19 81 MR. SPEAKER (Si;nms) NR. HICKEY: Tape No.363 SD - l The han. Minister of Social Services . Mr. Speaker, I use every facility and every mechanism ~hat is vested in me as minister to help people all over this Province,and I might say to the hon. gentleman, I use it Nisely and I use it fairly and justly to all. SOME HON. o1EMBERS : Hear, hear .. :'1R. SPE.'\KER: The han. menber for Te~ra Nova . ?•!R. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a ~uestion to the ~!inister of Labour and :'-Ian power (Mr. J. Dinn) . SOME HON. ME!'lBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hen. member for Terra ~ova. MR.

LUSH: A question to the hen. ~inister of Labour and Manpower. The minister has told us that the workers of the College of Trades and Technology asked for a conciliation board and were rejected. Can the minister indicate whether there have been any other moves by either the union or the government in an attempt to resolve this labour dispute? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, that question requires a little longer answer than normal. The hon. member is indicating that the government rejected out of hand a conciliation board. k'l Im. MEMBER: Right. MR. DINN: ~'Tell, Hr.

Speaker, -:.he hon. meml:er should know,if he does not know I will tell him now 1 he should know what the procedure is with respect to conciliation boards. The union in this case requested the appointment of conciliation on the 14th of April l9BO,and I am going to go through this process because the hen. member appears not to understand. SOME HON. ~MBERS: :1R. DIJ::II""N: Hear, !:lear. I know he is not ~isleadin g the House, he appears to not understand. 'j J 2 9 ''I 'I ''I ..

~·la:cch 13, 1981 Tape No. 363 SD - 2 SOHE HON. MEr,lBERS: Oh, oh . ~L"q. DINN: Conciliation was appointed on the 16th of April, 1980, and they had fourteen days in which to report. Meetings t.;ere held on the 23th and 24th of AJ?ril. there were thirteen non-monetary items and twelve monetary items le=t to be negotiated. Both parties, both Treasury Board and the College of Trades and Technology,indicated that thev wanted to await the outcome of the conciliation board appointed in the Gereral Service dispute. SOME HON. MEMBERS: TNe know that. MR.

DINN: The conciliation officer made his report on the 28th of April which is his mistake. NAPE was in a position to take a strike vote at that point in time,or seven days thereafter,but they were waiting for the conciliation board report into the General Service. Now, I realize that time is of the essence but this, I think, is fairly important. The minister is in a position where he could have appointed another board,which would have been totally not called for in this situation. The indication >-.ras that there were twenty-five - MR. LUSH: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. ~4R. SPEAKER (Simms); Order, please!

A point of order has been raised by the ~on. member for Terra Nova. MR. J. DINN: The hon.member does not want to know the answer. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am pretty flexib:e on listening to answers, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1'!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUSH: The question that I asked, Mr. Speaker,was whether or not there were any other moves by either the union or the goverlli~ent in addition to the union's request '·I for a conciliation board,and the minister just going down through telling me why he rejected a conciliation board. That ·1 t.J 3 0

''I Ylarch l3, 1981 Tape No. 363 SD - 3 MR. LUSH: is not the question, Mr. Speaker. It is completely irrelevant~ ~he question is were ''\ .. , ''r ·: i] J •]

Yfarch 13, 1981 Tape No. 364 DW - 1 ~R. T. LUSH: there any other moves by either the government or by the union to resolve this labour dispute? ~R. W. MARSHALL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of the Council to the point of order. ~'!R. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, you knm", 1\Then peol)le get uo on points of order it is wise to come up with authorities . I refer you to Beauchesne, the fifth edition, page 133, Reolies to Questions, "A Minister may decline to answer a question with­ out stating the reason for his refusal, and insistence on an answer is out of order.

A refusal to answer cannot be raised, an answer to a question cannot be insisted upon". Now the reason why I am drawing this to your attention, Mr. Speaker, is that the hon. gentle- man has asked a question-and that is fine. He can ask a question in accordance with t~e rules of this House-but he cannot determine the words '"hich the hon. gentleman is going to use in order to respond. SO~E HON. MEMBERS: MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! ~r. Speaker. A final submission on the ooint of order by the hon. member for Terra Nova. ~P.. 'I'. LTT.S?' .Mr.

Speaker, I cannot quote any authorities ,but I am not aoing to be muzzled either bv the hon. member. There is such a thing as common sense. SOME HON. .ME~.BERS : Hear, hear! MR. T. LUSH : ~r. Speaker, I am sure that one of the orerequisites of answering a question must be that it be answered. And I asked a question, Mr. Speaker, a specific question,and the question was not answered. The minister did not even go close to answering it. And I think you can call upon all the authorities in the world about oarliament and ·1 iJ 3 2 . .. ..

March 13, 1991 Tape No. 364 DW - 2 MR. T. LUSH: you will never find who ~~ill be able to justify that minister's answer to my question. MR. W. ~.ARSHALL : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SiiT~s): One final submission to the point of order ~rom the hon. President of the Council. ~-. \V. ~1ARSH11-LL: !-1r. Speaker, I just ask Your Honour encillary to the speech made by the hon. gentleman on his comments to the point of order, whether it miqht also be out of order to be waving your fingers because it might be interpreted as threatening gestures. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: ~R. SPEAKER : Hear, hear! Order, please!

There is already one :Joint of order on the floor and I cannot consider the ooint of order that the han. President of the Council (~1r. Marshall) just raised about waving fingers. Aside from that the authorities quoted by the hon. President of the Council, I think the Standing Orders are quite clear and in this oarticular case the final authority will be the Chair. The answer as far as I can determine, at least, was being given. It may not have been to the satisfaction of the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush). If that is the case then certainly there is another procedure which he can follow.

But in this parti­ cular matter there is no point of order. In any event,the time for Oral Questions now has expired. Before movinq on,may I ask hon. members to join me in welcoming to the galleries today two groups of students, twenty-eight Grade IX students from Mary Queen of the World School along with their teacher, Mr. Bob Sauve, from the District of Mount Pearl and - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: - seven students from Bishop College ., i.J 3 3 .

~!arch 13, 1981 Tape No. 364 DW - 3 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): along with their teacher, Nr. Jim Butters, from the District of St. John's West. Ne hope they enjoy their visit. SOM~ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order 2, second reading of a bill entitled, "An Act To Provide For The Protection Of The Forests Of The Province From Insects And Disease". Bill No. 54. Yesterday debate was adjourned by the hon. the member for LaPoile SOME HON. MEMB~RS: The hon. member for LaPoile. Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: .Mr.

Speaker, when the Premier talked about the opening of the House of Assembly this session the hon. gentleman heralded this session of the House as a·historic session, the most important session, the hon. gentleman told us, in Newfoundland's history. All the sweeping and major reforms, all the great reforms that the government were going to bring in would make it the greatest session of the House of Assemblv in the whole history of Nei•Tfoundland. It would make it even greater, a greater session, Mr.

Speaker, then the session where the Liberal government brought in the Workers' Compensation Act 1 which was a great reform, a major reform. It will be a greater session,so we were led to believe,than when the House met and the Liberal Government brought in the Labour Relations Act, the Labour Relations Act that has stood the test of time, that is still being used in this Province. It will be a greater session than 1vhen the Liberal Government brought in ~1CP to give Newfoundlanders coverage under the Liberal Medicare programme. It would even be greater than that so we were told.

It was going to be the greatest session since Confederation, the greatest session of the House since Confederation. And I could go on and on, Mr . • , L] 3 4 .., ··,

!!arch 13, 1981 Tape No. 364 Dl~ - 4 M_~. S. N£i\RY : S9eaker, I do not \'I ant to use u;:> too much of my time on trying to make that particular point . But a:ter Con!ede rati on, Your P.onour !mo1vs -:hat the Liberal Government had to establish governme nt deo;utments ,and all the bills that 1o~ere debated and discussed in the House to set up the Beare of Commissioners of Public Utilities , to set up the Newfoundland Constabulary, to establish a Civil Service '1 t) 3 s ''1 .. ..

~·larch 13, 1981 Tape No. 365 EL - l :-!R. ~EARY : Commission and to set up the Crown Lands Act. All these bills are all just mere trifles,were trivial, insignificant compared to ·,;hat ••e were going to have in this great session of the House of ;l.ssembly. Now, what do we have in this session, :<!r. Speaker, what does the Tory Government do compared to a Lib­ eral Government that brought in all these major reforms? l~hat do they do, and the sweeping changes, the great reform that the Premier told us about before the House met~ Well, we have a bill on the order paper to amend the change of name act. MR.

MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. ~-!R. M.Jl.RSHALL: I do not know if the hon. gentleman realizes that today we are not debating the address in reply. \ole are debating a specific bill which is before this House. The principle of the bill relates to the spraying of the forest,and the hon. gentleman's observations with respect to the order of business and other things extraneous to this bill, I .,.;ould say, Mr. Speaker, are definitely out of order.

I know the rule of relevancy is very difficult to interpre~ and I realize that,but I think when you have a bill,the principle of which is firmly before us 1that the hon. gentleman is obviously going into areas which are not relevant. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Your Honour knows that is not a point of order. I am merely leading up, making a point and the hon. gentleman is again trying to muzzle the Opposition. )!R.

SPEAKER (Simms): Well, to the point of order, The hon. member should not interpret my smile as being an indication that it is not a point of order,because certainly irrelevancy at any time is a legitimate point of order. I, quite frankly, was trying ·1 J 3 G ,,, .. , .. f ''I 'I

Narch 13, 19 81 Tape No. 365 EL-2 MR. SPEAKER (Sirruns): myself to understand what relevance the hon. member was trying to make with his

preamble,but I did note that he indicated he was not going to spend much time on that sort of a

preamble so I allowed him continue with a degree of flexibility. But I might point out that there is a bill that we are debating and the member's comments should be relevant to the bill anc I ask him to do that. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. Well, so what kind of legislation, Mr.Speaker, what kind of great reforms, what kind of legislation did the Premier eventually introduce to the House? And I mentioned a few, then there was"An Act To Amend the Human Tissue Act" and "An Act To .ll.mend The Embalmers P...nd Funeral Directors Act" and, Mr.

Speaker, the mos .t dastardly, devious piece of legislation ever brought before this legislature, the one we are discussing now, Bill 54. And the hon. gentlemen on the opposite side who have participated in this debate, Mr. Speaker, have deliberately or otherwise tried to mislead the House, tried to drag in a red herring, tried to leave the im­ pression that what we are talkinc about here is whether or not we should spray the forests of this Province. hnc I am especially, Mr. Speaker, disappoint,ed with the brave Minister of Mines and Energy (L.

Barry),who taught law over at Dalhousie University and I can understand now why the hon. gentleman is no longer teaching law. The hon. gentleman, ~1r. Speaker, especially 1 was one of the major spokesmen. The rest, Mr. Speaker, the rest of rubbish, the rest of the arguements that we heard from the other side I would dismiss forthright,but I cannot dismiss the statements made by the Minister of Mines and Energy, a senior minister in the Peckford administration. I cannot dismiss that. •jtJ 3 7 ''I .. ,

:-!ar-c:: 13 , 198. '!'ape :-<o . 365 EL - 3 \•iha t he said, Nr . Speaker , t.'"J.e hen . gen-.:le:r.an sort of set t..l-!e trend ::or the junior mem bers who spoke O:l this bill on tile government benches wh o, someho\v or other , thought t·le were calking about 1'7het~er or not we shoulC. spray the ::crests . The member :rom St:. John's Centre {D r. ~!cNi cholas ) <las st:ckeci i.n, goc connec into c;ett:ing up and te.lling clle neuse chat his greac orgar.izaticn, '::he :-Je•.,foundlanc ftecical Associati on sat on the fence but later approved of spray ­ L"1<_; . That is not the principle of this bill at all .

Did the hon . sent!.eman take the ti:ne to read the bill ? 1:: the hon . c;ent!.eman CiC ,he 'tlOUld knct·7 , the hen. gentleman tvOUld knm-1 that this is ~he sa:ne ~ind o: bill that: caused all the trouble in the country fro m 1•1hich the han . gentle man orig .ina-.es . '!'hat is t·lhac caused tile ~rouble , this so~t o ~ thing . Th is bill , Speaker , is che equivalent of the Nar Measu!:"es Ac in the province of Quebec . It is mini ~..;ar :neasures bilL that is wh at it is, ~-1r . Speaker.

And this is one o: the great reforms that tve '.-Jere told chat ;:his gover :nment tvas going tc introcuce i:~ this House in this 3ession . Anc the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) should be ·1 u.:. · •. I .. •· •·. '")

March 13, 1981 Tape 366 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: ashamed of himself. The hon. gentleman should know better than to make a statement in this House that the Liberal Opposition are against the 18,000 people earning a living in the forests in Corner Brook and Grand Falls. And we were against that, that is what he said. What a weak,. low argument! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ~.R. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I do not want to belabour that point either ,but just for the benefit of the han. gentleman who told us that we are not concerned about the future welfare of 18,000 workers and their families in Grand Falls and in Corner Brook.

That is what the hon. gentleman - he did not imply it, he said it, made a categorical statement. Well, Mr. Speaker, let me say to the han. minister that we are concerned about the 18,000 workers and their families in Grand Falls and Corner Brook. We are so concerned about them, Mr. Speaker, that we are, and have been for some time, trying to point out to this House the possible ramifications, the implications of the health of these families that the hon. gentleman spoke about. We are so concerned about them, Mr. Speaker, that not onlydo we want them to earn a living, yes, but we also want them to be healthy.

The han. minister should take time to read a story in the Toronto Globe and Mail a couple of days ago: "New Brunswick shows higher incidence of retarded children in study." They have been spraying matacil, spraying the forests of New Brunswick for thirty years, and they just did a study. MR. POWER: I read it. MR. NEARY: The han. minister, if he had read it, would not have come into the House. He must have read it after he made his speech in this House the other day or he would not have dragged in the red herring that '] L] 3 9 ''I ''I

:.larch 13, 1981 Tape 366 ::c - 2 ~lrt . ~E.::~.ay : he cragged into 1:his cebate . Jl..~ f.O~ • ~IE.'!EER : Eo1v could he say thac (i ~aucible l . Yffi . ~EARY : How could the hon . ge ntleman say it , that is :-i qht . He must have the face of a robber's horse - SQ~t;:" HCN • ~E."ffiERS : :1R . NEARY : Oh , oh ! - i: he came ~n here a:-tc deliberately acc~sed the Liberal Opposicicn of tryi:1g to take a;vay the living of 1a, 000 workers a."ld their far.u.l:.es in Corner Brook and Gra:-td Fal.ls, when he kz1o•.vs in h~s r.ear-.: tha-.: chere is a danger in matacil . ~~R.

BARRY : Read the study and you \.Jill see there are no connection . ~ffi. ~E~.RY : ~ . Speaker, "~le• . .,; Brunswick sho1vs higher incidence of retarded childre:-t in s::udy ." In the )!aritL11e study, about 200 health, education and social se::vice agencies reported,with parental consent , the idencity o: the retarded children . Born July 1, 1969 and J~.,e 30, 1972 - these singled out had scored lower than 55 ger ce:-~t on an I.Q . test o:: 1vere untestable . And, Mr . Sgea.l<er, this s:.tua;:ion has been relate d to the :act - HR . BARRY : Take you time . ~:R .

NEARY : Tell us ho1.; it : has been related . (Inaudible) garagraph three or :o~r . The gentlemen ;,·hom they are quccing here , Hr . Speaker, Professor Cameron HcQueen , said tha1: it may ~ot be possible to have the high incidence ·1 J ~ n '"1 .. , '1 ., .. ,

_:_. Narch 13, 1981 Tape No. 367 MR. S. NEARY: of retardation in the Province of New Brunswick to the toxic chemical spraying of fores~ in New Brunswick. MR. BAP.RY: That is exactly what I said yesterday. SD - 1 MR. s. NEARY: That is right. That is the same position the Premier is taking. MR. BARRY: That is a definite maybe. MR. NEARY: No, not a definite maybe, but it may be and it may not be,but that is the same position the Premier is taking.

The Premier_of this Province who is head of the administration also takes that position when he says,''~e are going to spray, my administration is going to spray, but I am personally against spray:• Now that is leadership for you. That is real leadership, Mr. Speaker. 'We are going to spray but I am personally against spray.' Well, Mr. Speaker, the government have already taken the decision to spray,but I am going to use the same strategy that the Premier used.

The government have decided to spray,not the Opposition, the government have already taken that decision, but I am going to use the -same strategy the Premier has used. And I did not here the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) comment on that. The Opposition were the only ones against these 18,000 people and their families earning their livelihood, not the Premier. So I am going to use the same words that the Premier used and then I would like to hear the hon. government's comment on that. 'The government have decided to spray,but I personally do not agree with spraying,' I am like the Premier. MR.

BARRY : ~-IR. NEARY: your leader. And your Party? No, I am following your Party, 'I tJ 4 1 ''I ''I '"I ''I

March 13, 1981 Ta!?e No. 367 SD - 2 SOME HON. ~·1EMBERS : Oh, oh . MR. NEARY: He says we are going to spray but he is personally against it,'~hile the government have decided to spray, I personally am against it.' MR. TULK: The same thing. MR. NEARY: The same thing, Hr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Are you savinq we do not neec to spray now? 1-!R. NEARY: I am like the Premier~ whatever his logic is, I do not know what it is, but whatever logic was in his statement,then I am taking the same position as the Premier. If he can co it - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR.

NEARY: - as head of the administration, he is the Premier and he goes into a Cabinet meeting and he gets the consensus of his Cabinet and then he decides - it is the Premier who decides, by the way, just to show you how hypocritical it can be. The Premier then says, okay, Mr. Minister of Mines and Forests,or whatever his title is, you can go out now and make an announcement to spray. It is the Premier who tells him that, an Order-in-Council is handed down, approved by the Premier, signed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.

After telling he that the Premier says, 'I am personally against it.' Well, I am the same as the Premier, Mr. Speaker, and I know that is a great sign of-weakness. I know it is very poor leadership.And would you blame people in this Province for being concerned about whether or not spraying is a good thing? Would you blame them for being concerned when the Leader, the man they elected to lead this Province, the Premier of this Province says, 'We are going to spray but I am personally against it 1 ? Would you blame people for questioning it, Mr. Speaker, would you blame people for being concerned about it?

Y.lould you blame people for questioning matacil? ·1 J 4 2 ··, ''I .

Harch l3, 1981 Tape No. 367 SD - 3 MR. F. ROWE: MR. NEARY: That is the courage tPey have. That is courage for you. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) the same way, the other day did a 180 degree turn - we have the clippings here in the newspaper to prove it -where he had gone to Cabinet with a heavy heart and a heavy mind and he said, 'No, no, in '78;, he said,-'we should not spray', he told his colleagues. And in '78 they sprayed, Mr. Speaker, and they did not need this bill that we have before us now to give them the authority to spray. They went ahead and sprayed anyway because, Mr.

Speaker, let us brush aside the rhetoric and the nonsense, the government had the authority to do it anyway. They did not need to come to this House to ask for the authority to spray. And I wish that message would get through, the government had the authority, the government governs this Province. They could have taken the decision to spra,y without any reference to the House of Assembly, without any reference at all; they did not need to do it, they already have the authority. The minister has the a.uthority under the Act. ~~ HON. MEMBER: Otherwise they were doing it illegally . MR.

NEARY: Otherwise, as my colleague indicated, Mr. Speaker, in 1978 they must have sprayed illegally. I know that is not true, the President of the Council (~r. Marshalll knows that is not true. The way our parliamentary system of government works , the government is elected, the head of the government picks the ministers, they farm an administration and they run the affairs of the Province. And in the process of running the affairs of the Province one of the decisions they made back in ., .; ' J :.. 4 ' .. , .. ,

~!arch 13, 1981 Tape 368 EC - 1 !1R. NEARY : 1978 was to spray. And they had every right to do it without any reference to the House of Assembly, without bringing in a special bill, without bringing in this dastardly piece of legislation we have before us now - I wish I could find it, I have it here somewhere. It is so bad it has probably fallen down in the garbage can somewhere. So, Mr. Speaker, what we have to ask ourselves,then, is what this bill is all about. What is it all about? It has nothing to do with 1vhether or not government should spray or not spray.

That debate has already taken place, will continue in ·the future. In New Brunswick they have been spraying for thirty years. The debate is still going on. They have a super budworm now in New Brunswick. Anybody who read the story in the morning news would see that three decades of spray has not ended debate in New Brunswick. The constant spraying is not doing a thing to he~p cure our sick forests. So, Mr. Speaker, that debate will continue, it will go on, whether to spray or not to spray, will go on as long as we have the spruce budworrn in Newfoundland.

As long as we are using matacil and other chemicals to try to protect the forests, there will be debate on whether or not it is a good thing or a bad thing. The government have already decided that they are going to spray this year. The Royal Commission reported that they could not see any alternative to spraying, which was a bit of a disappointment to me, personally. So the government accepted the recommendation and decided to spray. And that decision was made, 11r.Speaker, before this bill came into this House. The whole 1.,rorld knows that in 1978 government di~ not need this bill to spray.

Back in the 1960s, government did not need a bill to spray when we sprayed the forests against other insects like the woolly looper. ·1 i] ~ I+ ''I

March 13, 1981 MR. F. ROWE: MR. NEARY: MR. F. ROII'E: MR. NEARY: MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY: Tape 368 Woolly aphid. What is the name of it? Woolly aphid .. Whatever· it is. The hemlock looper. The hemlock looper. EC - 2 Back in the 1960s government did not need a bill to spray. Back in 1978 government did not need this bill to spray. ~~d government had already made a decision in 1981 to spray, when 1 lo and behold, ~x. Speaker, what appears in the House but the mpst mischievous, the most backward piece of legislation· - HR. F. ROWE: That is right. MR.

NEARY: - that we have ever seen brought before a Legislature in this land. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: The whole purpose of the bill, Mr. Speaker, is to take away people's rights. And they have covered it up. They have managed in a clever way, led by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), to drag a red herring into the debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: The press are sucked in. MR. NEARY: No, the press are not sucked in, the press know the difference. MR. THOMS: Yes they are. This has been reported. MR. NEARY: No, I must say I cannot agree with the hon. gentleman.

The press knew that spraying had been done in this Province before, back in the 1950s and 1960s, that spraying had been done in 1978, that the government had already decided to spray in 1981, and government did not need the authority from the House, the press knows that. And if they did not know it, they know ·1 G 4 5

March 13, 1981 Tape 368 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: it now, I have just told them. But I am pretty sure, Mr. Speaker, they know it - unless government back in those days were spraying illegally, unless they did something illegally. And as my colleague who served in Cabinet, the'member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Rowe) knows, there was nothing illegal about spraying the forests when they were sprayed. Government had a right to take that decision and they took it, and they had the courage to stand · by it. They had the guts and the intestinal fortitude to stand by it. But this government, Mr.

Speaker, have made a decision to spray and they are trying to cover up for their lack of courage. Tney are trying to cover it up by bringing in this piece of legislation to stop people who object to spraying, people whose property may be endangered, people whose property may be damaged. MR. THOMS: And not necessarily from spraying either. MR. NEARY: And not necessarily from spraying, by the way. Anybody who reads this bill can see the sweeping powers that are being put in the hands of that minister- ·1 u 4 G 'I ··, •·I ··,

1'<1arch 13, 1981 MR. NRll.RY: bravery the other day. MR. THOMS: Tape 369 EC - 1 who just got recognized for Not only powers in the minister'shands but powers to the private contractors. 1-!R. NEARY: Well, in this particular case he is not very brave, Mr. Speaker. What the bill is doing - and it is just as well to face it and forget all the nonsense that we have heard from the government benches about the merits or demerits of spraying,such as we heard from the member for St. John's Centre (Dr.

McNicholas),who thought that he might just capture a little headline by introducing his fe\·J remarks in French- he thought that was the way to do it- and then went on to tell us about the Newfoundland !'ledical Association, how wishy-washy they were in the beginning. You know, Mr. Speaker, if that is the philosophy and the policy of the Newfoundland Hedical Association, I would say God help the people of this Province. At least we had one brave doctor,who was also a member of that medical association,in Gander, who fought the good fight, Dr. Thurlow. t'lr. Speaker, Dr.

Thurlow, I would say'· being a medical man, and all the other people who were involved, civil servants, ordinary workers, lawyers who were i;volved in the protest against spraying in this Province, ~ would say they probably had a case. They had a case. The government was spraying too close to the Gander water supply, too close to communities in the area. And they are still going to do it. That is the same spray programme, if not worse - $4 million worth of spray will be dumped on the people in Central and Western Newfoundland. And we are told, Mr. Speaker, by the brave Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) who led the attack, that 'Oh, no, this does not stop people ·1 u 4 7 ''I ''I

Narch 13, 1981 Tape 369 EC - 2 MR. N&~Y: from suing the government,' suing them after the fact. This does not stop the people from suing the government after the fact. All it does is to stop the government or companies employed by the government - all this bill does is stop them temporarily for ten days, a couple of weeks or three weeks, from dumping $4 million worth of matacil down on their children, ruining their property, ruining their camping grounds, ruining their water supply. Government can do that now - I do not know if the bon. gentleman is aware of it - once this bill goes through. And then, Mr.

Speaker, you ruin the health of children who are not even born yet, children that women are carrying around in their stomachs. MR. CARTER: Rubbish! MR. NEARY: Rubbish? The hon. gentleman says 'rubbish' but he does not know - DR. McNICHOLAS: Are you against the spraying? ~~. NEARY: I beg your pardon? DR. McNICHOLAS: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: of the government. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Are you against the spraying? I am the same as the Premier - Right on! - and the Premier is the head No, you are not. And he says, 'We are going to spray to save the forests,' but he is personally against it. Mr.

Speaker, you can sue after the fact but you cannot get an injunction to stop the damage to your property, the damage to your children, the health of your children and the damage to the health of these 18,000 workers and their families that the bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy spoke about. You cannot get an injunction to stop it, but you can sue the government after. Now that makes a lot of sense, does it not? Sue the government after. ·1 LJ 4 0 ''I ..i

~larch 13, 1981 Tape 369 EC - 3 Hrt . :'-lEARY : You have a ::etarded child born so you sue the government. You are poisoned by drir.king the water in a ,,·ater supply , your children are all sick - and I do not know if hon . members are aware of ~he d~~age chat matacil does to a person 's body, especially little children, but it attacks the nervou s system , as my hon . !riend ~,ows, ar.d causes convulsions ,and they tell ~e it is about one of the worst things that a doctor could witness . Reye's Syndrome , they tell me, is devastating . )~d the hon . gentleman says , ' Oh , no , go ahead .

Let them go ahead carte blanche, no control from the public . Let them go ahead and dump this $4 million worth of·spray , damage people's health and cheir property but that is alright, you can sue after .' Hi roshima all over again , Mr . Spe~~er ! Drop the bomb , do the damage and then spend the rest of your li :e trying to rectify it and correct it, that is the hon . gentleman's philosophy . That is ~~e Tory philosophy, Mr . Speaker. "j t] ~ 9 •·· . .. •. 1 ·: .. I

......... ~!arch 13, 1981 Tape 370 PK - 1 ~lR. TULK: Agent orange, too . M..~ . ~"Efu~):' : Aaent orange the same 1vay . ':'hey allowed that to be dumped . We have not been able to identify the areas yet where they dumped it . But thac is the Tory philosophy. llffi . CARTER : Rubbish, rubbish! :1R. NEARY : ~·ie were told , 11r . Spea ker, that :·l.r . Moo res . ..,hen he was Premi er, t1o10 thing s he did in Newfoundland - ~1..1:!. . TULK : ;-t.l{ . NEARY: He tried to get rid of us all . - two things he did that will put his :1ame into the history book; number one, :1r .

Speaker, he created a climate for economic development in ~ewfo~ndland for .:he first time since Confederation . ~tR . TULK: What? !1R . W....ARY : And the second thing he di~ so we were told, •,ras to bring the democracy to Newfoundland . SO!>'£ RON . !4Ei'1BERS : Oh , oh ! !<!R . UEARY : Brinq demo cracy to ~ e wfoundland . And that crowd !:ol~m ·1ed that leader for seven years. Now, !1r . Speaker, after Mr . ~oores brought democracy to Newfoundland- I might say the only thing t.l1at he and the present Premier have in common that they both like the~r little bit of comfort . They both like t~eir comfort .

That is the only thing ~hey had in common - but after this man working so hard for seven years to L=i:1g democracy to Newfcundl and,now this crowd are going to destroy his reputation and take that bit of creci t a1.,.ay from him . ·1 G 50 .. , ..

c-1arch 13, 1981 Tape 370 PK - 2 ~lR. NEARY: We have a government now that has become so arrogant that you cannot deal with them. We saw examples of that this morning. We see a government that is trying to restrict debate in this House. we have a government that moved the estimates off the floor o~ the House of Assembly - and that is the only reason the 2ouse is here is to pass estimates. c·lR. C."-.RTER: You never come to those hearings. ~!R. ~EARY: Mr.

Speaker, now \ve have a government that is going to take away the right of the individual or a group of individuals to seek a court injunction if they see their health is being endangered or their property is being damaged or imposed upon by this government and its storm troopers that they are going to contract to go out and drop $4 million worth of matacil on th~ people of this Province, they cannot get a court injunction. The government obviously has no faith in the courts. Because we are told, led again by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry), that anybody can go down, any crackpot, he said, can go down and get an injunction on frivolous grounds, Mr. Speaker. They cannot do that. :v1R. POl\fER: Ke ~ould lose $4.5 million! HR. NEARY: Oh, we would lose $4.5 million! They are putting money ahead of the health of the people of this Province, and the rights of the people of this Province. It is their basic rights, their human rights. :~. Speaker, thank God if they - YiR. TH0~1S : Their sacred right. ' YiP,. NEARY : It is their sacred right. If they use their majority, Mr. Speaker, brute force to ram this .j J ~ j .. '

·-' ~-lar ch 13, 1981 Tape 370 PK - 3 I·L~ . NV.RY : bill through the House of Assel\lbly 1 the only hope we have is the Charter of Rights under the new Constitution - SOME BON . 1~"1BERS : Hear, hear ! MR . NEARY : - and they will not be able to get atvay with this ever again. That is why they are fighting so hard against tbe Charter of Rights and against -the ne~" Constitution . ~!R . STAGG : ~he people in L.aPoile have not got to depend upon it (inaudible) . MR . 811-RRY : No. :1R. N""r.AR Y : Oh, Mr . Speaker, throw all caution to the wind 1the hon . gentlema n is saying . Throw all caution to the wind .

Let her go . Let her go . Let ~~e government 1a what they like . ~L~ . THOMS : A Fa sciG t pi ece of legislation . :.iR . NEARY : It is the worst piece of legislation ever brought before this Legi sla ture , !1r . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (~1r . But;;.) : Ord er, please ! The ton . memb er's time has expired . S0!1E HON . ~·!EMBERS : By leave ! By leave! 1-t:R . SPEAKER : By leave? Is it agreed? SOME BON. MEMBERS : No, no . ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon . member =or Stephenville . SC*$ HON. MZMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: Mr . Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the floor.

I have tried on se veral o c cas ~..>.t;; now to get the floor for ~~e last couple of day s, but apparently there is a certain curious blicdness that affects people when I qet up . ·1 LJ 52 .. .. ..

:-!..a==~ . ' _;,, ~93~ :";?e 37 () ?K - ~ :-:~ . 5-:'AGG: ::o' . ..,, :-:= . Spea~er 1 I •·;ar. '; tc aC.cress ~ysel= :irst. o: .a.:.:. to a ~atte= chat ·,;as labo =i ou sly "'l p~rs~ec this ~or~ing o: the ma~ ber ~or oor t a~ ?or~ !~:r . Rocce!' ) conce::n:..ng che ma':acil '=ha;: is store d in S:a?he:Wllle. !0.:: ::ne :!.::St: t:i~e, CO ;ny knO' .·:le dge 1 ;:ne exac:: lccaci o~ o: c~e ~atac!.l in St:e?henv !l !e is be:or~ ;:he qe:te.::al publ!.c . :.he e:<act locac!.on, t:he r.~unicl.;>al acicire ss and all o: the ~atacil broadca st: th !s ~orning for che ge neral p~blic - .·1R .

HODDER : On a !'Ol.n;: of order I 1-!r . Speaker . ,., ::.~ . S?EAXER (:•:r . Butc l: Order, please ! .:~. point of orce::- . !'he ho!'! . ~e ~ber :or ?ore au ?or;: . ::R . .5T.:l..GG : :'::ere is :10 poi ~ ~ of orC.e r, :.t= . Spea.<e=. SO:·fE P.O:\. )1.£:-:.sE~S : Sl.C Co\ .. orn ! Si;: 0.0 :·."!1~ :!R . ::ODDER: A po!nt o: order, :·lr . S?eake!: . Zy ?Oi :r: o: order is :.hat che hon . me:nber i.s ~isleadi::g ::."le :touse . He sa:..d that lt • .. ;as the first ti:ne that this has been before t:he House or the general p"Jblic . It •.,•as ~acie ?U~lic in this rtouse on April 241 1980 1 ~tr . S~ eake r. )!R .

STA(;G : A di~~e~e~ce o~ opinio~~ ~r . S~eaker . :·:.~ . SPE.H!:~: ':'o che ?Oin t of o::::er? :IR . STAGG : It is a ai:ference o~ opinion, ~1 :.Ir . Speaker . ~, .i ·.: ~ J

!·larch 13, 19 81 ?-lR. SPEAKER (Eutt) : :-1R. STAGG: to it further - Tape 371 EC - 1 Order, please! And I want to address myself MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~ffi. STAGG: - and I am not going to be shut up by the hon. member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~ffi. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, I would rule there is no point of order, but obviously a difference of opinion between two hon. members. Stephenville. NR • Ml\.RSHALL : MR. SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. MARSHl'.LL : The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

On a point of order, the hon. the I have to rise on a point of order arising from the point of order raised by the hon. gentleman. The hon. gentleman when he rose in his seat to make the point of order, said that the hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) had misled the House.

I refer Your Honour to Beauchesne, page 108, containing a list of prohibited, unparliamentary expressions -page 108 'to mislead' -and there are at least three or four authorities there, and there are many, Now, I know the hon. gentleman did not mean to insinuate that the hon. the member for Stephenville would mislead the House, but 'mislead' has connotations, Mr. Speaker, attached to it which are unparliamentary and I know on reflection that the hon. member would wish to perhaps withdraw it, but he certainly should be asked to withdraw it if he does not wish to. i-'H'<.

HODDER: To that point of order, Mr.Spea ker. ·1 u 5 I,

... March 13, 1981 Tape 371 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): To the point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr.Speaker, yes, the hon. the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) is quite correct, you are not supposed to use 'mislead' in the House . I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker. I will say that the member was engaging in a parliamentary inexactitude. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Mr.

Speaker, semantic obfuscation by the hon. member will not deny 1 '.:ill not enable him to slither away from the fact that he has pinpointed today the exact location of the matacil in Stephenville for anyone who might curiously want to go up and find out where it is or do damage to it, or to just do the sort of things that vandals or other people who may want to do damage to the general public of this Province or to the general public of Stephenville - there are certain people who have that propensity.

And the hon. member has given the exact municipal address on Igloo Road, whatever number it is Igloo Road in Stephenville, stored in one of these ammunition dumps where they used to store live bombs, by the way, and I also understand.the y used to store atomic bombs in the base at one stage - quite illegally, but they used to be stored there.

The hon. member in his desire for a headline, in his desire to get interviewed by the press, has deliberately pinpointed the location of the matacil in Stephenville, and I think that that is a disservice to the public of this Province and certainly a disservice to the people of my district. The hon. member represents Port au Port although he lives in Stephenville. He is endangering everyone in this Province and everyone·in our area by pinpointing the location of that matacil and inviting people who might have mischief on their minds to go there and get involved with it.

He could ha ve indicated, he did not have to pinpoint it, and I am upset with the hon. member. 'I lJ 55 ''I ''I

Harch 13, 1981 Tape 371 EC - 3 ;:; MR. STAGG: It is one of the most base things that has happened in this House in quite some time and I disagree with it, and I will continue to disagree ~vith it and I will let the people know what the hon. member has done. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! A~ HON. MEMBIR: Terrible! Terrible! MR. STAGG: Now, what is the Li~eral Party's stand on this bill? Now, this is a very simple bill, Mr. Speaker.

The Liberal Party has come through again, they have mastered that difficult art of speaking out of both sides of their mouths at the same time,and if there were three positions they would speak through the middle as well. ''r The member for Windsor-Suchans (Mr. Flight)- I was not here last Friday when he clued up his debate, but I understand that the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight),which is near Grand Falls- the member for Windsor - Buchans, I believe, invited civil disobedience, indicated that the people of the Province will be well put if they disobey this piece of legislation.

Now, I understand that that does not sit too well with the .. , powers that be within the Liberal Party, because the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker, has always been a party that allied itself with big busi~css in this Province. Big business i~ this Province has,to a large extent, massacrea the forests during the tenure of the Liberal Party. llhen the Liberal Party was in power from 1949 to 1971, th~ forests of this Province got no protection, zero protection.

The only thing that we can be thankful for is that the spruce budworm did not arrive here until 1972, because if the spruce budworm had arrived here before that Agent Orange would be nothing, we would be like Vietnam. The Liberals would have allowed spray - there would be no tomorrow. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ·1 J 5 G .. ,

~:.arch 13, 1981 Tape 371 EC - 4 ~1.'L ST~GG: And I would sugc;est that Ne~'l Brunswick would be a pale shacow to us ,because they are tools of the corporate elite of this Province . PRENI.SR PECKFORD: ~lR . STAGG: Concessions now (inaudible). Concessions, yes, the concessions given by the Liberals and their predecessors are the kinds of things that this government is strait jacketed with and "Ne have been strait jacketed \•ith fo r the past ter. years .

And only through diligent and persistent and consistent leadership and policies on the part of this government are we managing to wiggle away some of these vast concessions given out by the Liberals and .the ir contemporaries opposite who try to paint themselves as the party of the common man. Well , they are the right wingers, Mr . Spea~er. I have said it before, they are the right wingers in this Province and the small '1' Liberals are over here . This is ,..,h ere you can get people legislation, on this side of the House, and over on that side of the House what you will get is hypocrisy.

You will get the right - hl5 7 .. .. .. • '1

March 13,1981 Tape No. 372 EL - 1 MR. STAGG: wingers, that is all these hon. gentlemen are. They are a crroup of city folk who are out managing to get elected, through some sub- terfuge .or other, managing to get elected out in the rural districts,but your day is coming, your day is coming! The Leader of the Opposition, after the next election, is going to be the member for Carbonear (R. ~oores) because he has already proclaimed himself invincible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

STAGG: And I would certainly be delighted if he were the Leader of the Opposition,because I am sure that we .. , would be - well, he looks like he is going to have a fairly long life so I suspect that he will be around for at least another twenty-five years. Among his other attributes, he seems to enjoy good health. Now, Mr. Speaker, what about the Liberals? What about the Liberals in this House? I am going to outline some- thing about the philosophy of the Liberal3 in the twenty-five or so minutes that I have at my disposal.

I am qoing to show,or attempt to show ,how the Liberals are for things and against things at the same time, and I am going to start off with a point I made in debate the other day. It is a consistent point and the bon. members are goino to have to live with it. MR. THOMS : Get off my back! MR. STAGG: Here is a picture. Here is a picture of the Flag Committee, a picture of the Flag Committee, flanked .on either side by the member for Eagle River (E.Hiscock) and the member for Grand Bank (L. Thoms) proudly displaying the new flag, the new flag that was brought before this House. MR. MOORES: Relevance. MR.

SPEAKER(BUTT): Yes. Order, please! I believe the bon. member is straying somewhat from this bill that we are now debating. MR. RIDEOUT: There is nobody talking about the (inaudible) . ·1 t.J 5 B

c•larch 13, 1981 ~a'; e ~: o .. 3 7 2 EL ~ 2 ~!R. STP..GG: :.:r. Speaker, I a:n not strn"i.n~r - I am displaying - is t!ce Speaker ready to give :T!e - is this a point of order or what is it? :--!R. ~!OORES: · He does not have to, he is Speaker. NR. SPEAKER (But"!:): ~ou are straying from the bill before the House right nm.;. SOf•lE HO~ • ~!EMBERS : Gh, oh! :!R .. S~ .. i:\GG: ~·lr .. .Speaker, I am ~ointir:q Ot;.t t::e in- consistency of the Liberal ?arty on a variety of pieces of leg­ islation and that is a legitimate debating point,as far as I a~ concerned.

If the Chair is to restrict me from :nakinq these points then it is going to be extremely di:ficult to continue. ~'lR. ~OORES: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A ~oi~c o: orde ~ . c.~~ hc--:1 . :-:'le:n !:e::- Ca::-bonear . XR . 1-\00~ES : :'his L; cne of the r.:ost ':lur.rageo~:s ac-.:s of di s::-e sard an d c~s~espec~ :or :~e Chair tha~ ha\·e se~r. r::o\·1 :.:-1 year s. >.~ :iC~! . ~-rE :O·t3£ R : c.r. , ::o . :--:R . :•!OOR ES : It ~s common !<:10~·; leC.g.e in ':~is ~:-usc, :-!!' . Spea:,er, :~at the a~thori-.:y cf :his House lies 1.n :..."'a Chal.::-. c·1r .

Spea~er ~as :nade a dec 1.s io:-; tna c you ha·.-e be.::! :.~:::=.!.~\·<: :1-:. a~ri it is not in keeping tdt:h ?!:' C-:ocol in .::us P. .. :m s..: 7~::: :·c'J ;.c :::.~~s - tion th~t cecis ion . I say, :-!r . Sp~aker , i!' !:a cio es not. t·:a:;;. ':.::~ :o ilow ;.he rules you should nar. .e ~im =or~~ith . ~·a. S:\~GG : :tr . 5;:-;aker - ~!~ . S?Si\KE~: ~o the point of order? MR. THOMS: P.ear, hear! MR. STAGG: .'!r. S-peaker, I wa.TJt to continue :ny speech, whether there are points of crder or whatever. _; ~ ::) 'I

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 372 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Well, first I will rule on the point of order. I believe it is a point well taken and I ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the bill that we are now debating. And I would ask him to do so. Otherwise, the bon. member, I will ask him to take his seat and I will recognize another memter. The hon. member for Stephenville. SOME HON. r·'.ENBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, I am going to -Mr.

Speaker the constraints that the Speaker of the Chair has put on rre this morning are constraints that appear to be precisely designed for my speech,There has been a wide-ranging debate on this matter throughout the morning and throughout the last several days. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member for I know Your Honour does not need the protection of a member of this House but Your Honour's ruling is being questioned by the member at the moment and there is a procedure, Mr.

Speaker, for questioning Your Honour's rulings and I would submit that the hon. gentleman, if he wishes to"pursue the line of thought that he is on, Mr. Speaker, that he use the procedure of this House. If not,Your Honour should rule the hon. gentleman is - even go as far as to name him, Mr. Speaker, if he does not follow Your Honour's instructions. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. the You know that is a spurious point of order. Your Honour has made a ruling and the hon. the member for Stephenville (F.

Stagg) has heard Your Honour's ruling and the hon. member for Stephenville is now getting up and making comments 1J60 ''I ..

Harch 13, 1981 Tape No. 372 EL - 4 MR. HARSHALL: with respect to the bill itself. It is obvious that there is a tactic, Mr. Speaker, by the hon. gentle­ men there opposite to try to needle and harrass the hon. member but the hon. member is far more experienced in this House than the hon. members of the other side at this, and in other areas himself , and I am quite sure he is able to recognize what the hon. gentlemen are trying to do under the guise of the rules of the House. f.1R. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

To the point of order, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne, Page 38. Mr. Speaker, "\-Jhen he rises to oreserve order or to give a ruling he must always be heard in silence. Reflections upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be punished as breaches of privilege." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: I will attempt to be relevant and to confine myself to the rules as - SOME HON. MEMBERS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, I would rule that there is no point of order and ask the hon . mem ber·for Steph­ enville (F.

Stagg) if he would continue in debate onthe bill before the House. MR. STAGG: Well, Mr. Speaker, in an attempt ·1 lJ G 1 ' .. ''I 'I .

March l3, 1981 Ta:9e No. 373 DW - l ~R. F. STAGG: to explode the so-called debating point~ made by the Oppositior. MR. R. MOORES: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. l'!R. F. STAGG: harassment - MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Now, Mr. Speaker, this is outright Order, please! The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: M.r. Speaker, I wish to raise a J?Oint of order on the Government House Leader's (Mr.

Marshall) comments of a few minutes ago when he rose to speak on the previous point of order, imputive motives, motives unbecoming of the Govern­ ment House Leader toward the members of the OJ?position when we brought to Your Honour's attention that another member of this House was, in fact, questioning his ruling. I wish, Mr. Speaker, that you ask the Government House Leader to withdraw those unmitigated remarks. MR. W. ~ARS HALL : MR. SPEAKER: MR. 1'1. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, look,the hon. gentle- man gets up and interprets remarks made as imputing motives.

Now,let us first be clear on what the motives are. There is ruling in Beauchesne that one is not entitled to impute base motives of people, not motives. And this has been said from time to time. But the second thing I can tell Your Honour, and the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores), the machinery of attemJ?ting to get under somebody's skin, as it were, for use and want of a better wore, is a recog­ nized tactic of debate. But when I was getting up, Mr. Speaker, all I was doing in this House was passing an opinion as to what the hon. gentlemen opposite were trying to do.

Now,the hon. gentleman should read the rules and not get up and just quote them. He can look in Beauchesne and he can see-and this silli­ ness that he and the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) from ., J 52 •. I

~'arch 13, 1981 Ta~e No. 373 DW - 2 MR . ''! • ~fl\RS HALL : time to time get up about, you know, you are not allowed to imnute motives. It is clearly stated here you are not allowed to impute base motives. Obviously, nobody in this House gets u~,or anybody gets up to speak about anything but he has a motive, he has a motive, first of all, to speak in the first instance. But it is not the motive, it is the char­ acteristic of the motive. SO!-IE HON. "!E!1BERS: .'-'R. SPEAKER (Butt) : Oh, oh! Order, please! I will reserve rulina on that point of order. I will have to check Hansard.

The hon. member for Stephenville. ~R. F. STAGG: Now, Mr. Speaker, the members of the Opposition are for the spray programme but they are against the spray programme as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F. STAGG: In my

interpretation of the rules that should be relevant within the bounds of relevancy. The hon. members, they are for the spray programme but they are against it as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please·!· M.R. F. STAGG: The hon. members are the type of people who curry ~avour, who have curried favour with the paper companies over the years. They are the type of people who go on paid excursions at holiday resorts within the Prov­ ince, courtesy of the paper companies. I do not know if any of us have ever been on any of these holidays.

I have never holid'l.ved at the Serpentine myself. l'le have never been the patsies of the paper com~anies. And we only arrive at this conclusion that we must spray because SOM£ HON. ~E~BERS: Oh, oh! ·1 tJ G 3 .. ,

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 373 DW - 3 ~R. F. STAGG: We only arrive at this decision after the most expert of advice, the most excruciating of debate. And after looking at one's conscience as deeply as one can and after asking for advice from the most expert peoole, and going around the Province and speaking to anyone and everyone who had an ooinion on the subject,reluctantly the Royal Coromission decided that they would have to spray.

Now.what are the recommendations of the Roval Coll'mission? \'Jell, they are found basically on pages ninety-four and ninety-five of the Report of the Royal ~ommission on Forest Protection and Management. And I am going to read briefly from certain portions of it; 'A deci­ sion to control forest losses to spruce budworm by use of chemical insecticides is a matter of balancing risks and benefits. Uncontrolled forest insect outbreaks can mean disaster for forest industry, loss of employment opportun­ ities and earnings for employees and collapse of communities supported by the resource.

It is recognized that chemical insecticides are toxic and their use may involve risk of environmental damage. The environmental risk has been qreatly reduced in recent years by scientific advances in developing safer insecticides and technological improvements in their application by aircraft delivery systems: Now, Hr. Speaker, I am concerned in retrospect about the last spray programme in this Province.

And I was appalled and alarmed when I found that the empty containers for the matacil were being used as barriers in the parking lot at the Stephenville Mall in Steohenville. !t is an area used by thousands of people weeklv, punitively, tens of thousands of people every week. And these empty matacil containers were used as barriers. So obviously, there 'l J 6 4 ... 'I ''I

!'larch 13, 1981 Tape No. 374 so - l MR. F. STAGG : was a certain ~mount of uncontrolled security with regard to the disposition of these empty containers. Now, I was quite pleased- MR. STAGG: - when the Premier indicated at the press conference that that sort of thing was not only going to be frowned upon but there was to be an absolute prohibition on it. And the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) has indicated that the live matacil, so to speak, that is being stored somewhere in Stephenville and the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) attempted to, and,I suppose,successfully pinpointed the location of it,.nuc!1 to my chagrin. ~1R. HODDER: ~ point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. STAGG: The hon. member gave a municipal address on Igloo Road for the matacil. Now,if that is not pinpointing it then I do not know what it. What is it? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STAGG: And I said, much to my chagrin. M.,.-q, S. NEARY: There is a point of order, sit down boy. f.1R. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The same point of order as before, Mr. Speaker. That was made public knowledge in this House one year ago. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. member cannot rise on spurious points of order. That point of order was dealt with, I think, previously and a member cannot be interrupted when he is sDeakin~. (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. ~!R. STAGG: Now, Mr. Speaker, I am going to repeat that. '1 u 6 ~ "I 'I '"I . ''I

_,__ March 13, 1981 Tape No. 374 SD - 2 ~R. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. STAGG: The hon. member for Stephenville. I am going to repeat it, ~r. Speaker. It may have been made public a year ago but it certainly was not something that was flogged as it was here this morning by the hon. member looking for a headline, looking to get interviewed with some of the local media or the provincial media, hopefully, national media. That is the whole object of his question,to pinpoint it, precise location of it, a municipal address for the matacil that is stored at Stephenville. And all these igloos look alike, Mr.

Speaker.so if you want to know where it is,somebody ha~ to tell you because I do not know. I never made it my business to find out and drive by and sav, there is the matacil. ~·ffi. THOMS : Get to the principle of the bill. MR. STAGG: I am concerned. I do not know if it will happen,I certainly hope it does not happen,but if there is any vandalism or if there is anyone on a nuisance frolic that makes their presence felt or breaks into that matacil, the hon. member is going to have to take some responsibility for it and I suggest he will take more responsibility than he wants to.

There was no need for it, there was no need to identify where that matacil is, yveryone knows it is in Stephenville and I am quite concerned about it. ~1R . THOMS : What has the member been doing about it for the last year? MR. STAGG: The member has confidence in the minister, It needs to be recanned. MR. NEARY: According to (inaudible) you have. MR. STAGG: Yes, the member l1as confidence in the minister and his officials and the experts that are employed to look after it. If anything happens the minister will share his responsibility and I will share mine as well.

I do not flinch from responsibility, I do not slinge away. slinging away from responsibility is the Liberal method, That is the federal Liberal method. That is what the hon. members ·1 tJ G 6 .. , ''I ''I .. ,

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 374 SD - 3 MR. STAGG: opposite are doing when they are talking about the fisheries licencing programme. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) Devine and McConnell. MR. STAGG: That is the Liberal method,to slinge away from it as best you can. Now back to the Royal Commission on Forestry, ~x. Speaker. It says, 'There is no evidence of peraistent environmental damage to fish, fish organisms, birds or mammals from the insecticide' - how do you pronounce that? - SOr-".E HON. MEMBERS: Fenitrothion. MR. STAGG: whatever it is - aminocarb or acephate .• MR. S. NEARY: His time is up, Mr. Speaker. MR.

STAGG: 'There has been no evidence of loss of species. diversity, minor pest interruption, pest resistance or degradation of soil process as a result of the use of insecticides over forest areas. There is also no indication that the processes of predation and parisitism of pest populations are damaged by spraying. Most pesticides are transient! And some hon. members opposite are transient as well,so they have something in common with these pesticides . 'They are applied locally and are not sufficiently stable to be transported in an active form very far from their site of application. ' reoort. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is not a cursory This is a report done by Dr. Gus Rowe, former Minister of Health in this House, a man who distinguished himself in the House of Assembly, who was distinguished himself in practice and I believe is now associated with Memorial University at the Medical School, a fine honourable gentleman; Dr. Cyril Poole in Corner Brook is another fine Newfoundlander. AN HON. MEMBER: Dr. Carroll. MR . STAGG: Dr. Carroll - I do not know Dr. Carroll but I presume that he is as equally dedicated and 1 L] 6 7 ''I .. ''I ''I ''I

March l3, 1981 Tape No. 374 SD - 4 MR. STAGG: as worthy a Newfoundlander. Now,they have brought in a report, I would suggest that they did not arrive at a decisior. without ·;:J G Q "I .. , 'I

~larch 13, 1981 Tape 375 EC - 1 MR. STAGG: long hard thought, as well, and their decision was that we should have spray. Alright, now, if you are going to have spray, it is necessary that you spray during a relatively short period of time. You have to get the budworrn or the larvae at a particular time, and there is probably a two-week period in which you can get it. Now, apparently, there is a loophole in the law whereby environmental groups or an individual or anyone - AN HON. MEMBER : Crackpots. MR. STAGG: Crackpots, the hon. member says. I do not classify the environmentalists as crackpots.

I have some letters here - MR. THOMS: (Inaudible) The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) did. MR. STAGG: Well, maybe - the Minister of Mines and Energy can speak for himself on that. I doubt whether he said it though. I have a fair amount of correspondence from individuals in my area who are violently opposing the spray and they oppose it on philosophical grounds and they oppose it in the same way as the people who. opposed atomic explosions, atomic tests, back in the 1950s and 1960s - they have the same philosophical opposition to it as these people did.

I certainly respect them for it and I believe that these people must continue their efforts to dissuade government from becoming tools of the paper companies or anyone else who wants them to take action that might be out of the ordinary and that might upset the balance of nature. I respect them and I encourage them to continue to write me. Each one who writes me, I write them back and I tell them what my position is. And b~sically my position is as I am putting forth here this morning. But you do reach a point, if you are a government, where you must govern. And if you govern, "]l] 59 '"I 'I

Y!arc h 13, 19 81 Tape 375 EC - 2 :•JR. ST.C,GG: you must make sure that your e::forts to govern are not th•varted by things unforeseen. Now, apparently it is possible for a group or an individual to go before the courts of the Provi~ce and get an inj~~ction to stop the spray progra~~e.

Well, I would submit that if I were advising any of these groups, How do you stop the spray progr~;me? - well, as soon as it is about to start you get an injunction and then you go through the process of having an injunction lifted and by that time the time for spray is over and, well, you have licked the spray programme for that year. By the time the injunction is lifted it is no good to spray. So you have to guard against that sort of thing. This is not a civil liberties bill, Mr.

Speaker, this is merely a piece of legislation that enables government to do its stated intention, which is to spray the forests with matacil this year in an effort to control the spruce budworm outbreaks that are ravaging the Province, that have approximately 10 per cent of our forest land either dead or dying, and it has caused considerable alarm to anyone who has had a look at it.

Now, I fancy myself an epvironmental­ ist and I guess all of us in our idealism would prefer that we did not have to get involved with these chemical methods of co~trolling nature, and I was quite delighted in 1979 when the government said it was not going to spray. And I was delighted again last year when it said it was not going to spray - I said so in this House.

Now, the Royal Commission has satisfied me that on the balance of risks that are evident or known that we should try a spray prograwme this year, and I guess if we commit ourselves to it this year, we are committed to it for several years, but what else must we do? Well, obviously, this government is not depending on the spray progra~e by itself to control the spruce budworm. 'i l] [' 0 . .. .. , ... ,

March 13, 1981 Tape 375 EC - 3 MR. STAGG: We must have silviculture, we must have rational harvesting methods, we must get into cable logging of the steeper slopes in this Province. I must say that cable television brought me a very interesting - MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOHS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. Hr. Speaker, I do not believe that there is a quorum in the House at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: MR. STAGG: Would the Clerk count the House, Flease? We have a quorum, The hon. the member for Stephenville . Mr.

Speaker, this is the kind of harassment, of course, that the Opposition considers to be cute and clever, you know, to indicate that there is not a quorum. The hon. members have, I think, seventeen members and falling on the other side. At the time the quorum was called there were only three members in the House. They obviously do not want to hear the truth. MR. HOORES: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. STAGG: ~tr. Speaker, this foolishness from this individual is just too much. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the member for Carbonear . MR. HOORES: Mr.

Speaker, for the second or third time this morning, members of the government sic~ have been imputing motives on the part of the Opposition in raising - MR. THOHS: Base motives. MR .HOORES: - base motives in following the procedure of this House in raising legitimate points of order. It is not the responsibility of the Opposition in this hon. House to maintain a quorum, it is that of the government, and if the government sees ·1 u 7 1 "I .., •. I "I ''I

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 376 DW - 1 MR. R. MOORES: not fit to maintain a quorum,then it is the responsibility of any responsible member to rise on a point of order and ask that a quorum be maintained. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): With respect to the point of order I rule there is no ?Oint of order. The hon. member for Stephenville. "!R. F. STAGG: Well, l'V!r. Speaker, that is obviously the position of the members opposite, they do not think they have to sit in the House. The hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) hardlv ever sits in the House - MR. NEARY: A point of order. MR. F.

STAGG: - but this week he has been here three days in a row. It is a world's record for him. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. member l'V!r. Speaker, I wonder if Your Honour could ask the Clerk to indicate if the han. gentleman's time has expired? MR. W. MARSHALL: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order,- MR. W. MARSHALL: I will rise on a point of order after that is dispensed with. MR.

SPEAKER: Nell, with respect to the point of order the Chair and the Clerk's at the table are quite able to look after the timing of members and I assure you we watch it verv closely. I believe the hon. member now has about one minute remaining. The hon. member for Stephenville. . , u 7 2 ... . .

1-iarch l3 , 19 81 Tape ~o. 376 DW - 2 MR. F. STAGG: ~!ell, Mr. S]:Jeaker, I have one minute remaining of the - the substance of my speech was thwarted, successfully thwarted to a large extent by the interjections an~guerrilla warfare and sniping and what­ ever,of hon. members opposite. But there is another day, Another day will come. And, T suoD0Se, to some extent I may deserve a little bit of razzing from the Opposition since I occasionally indulge in it myself, only on occasion of course. Mr. Speaker, I SU?,port this piece of legislation. It is the sort of thing that is consistent with governing a Province.

The gover~~ent would, indeed, look foolish if, after having made its ?Osition clear and indicated to the public at large that they were going to have a spray programme this year only to wake up some fine morning in June to find out that an injunction had been filed successfully with one of the courts in the Province and the spray programme was off.

So it is not a piece of civil liberties legislation, it is merely a piece of housekeeping legislation to make sure that the government's stated intention and the posi­ tion that the government should take as outlined in the Royal Cornrnission,that it, in fact, is carried out and I will SUp]:>Ort it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a fewtvords concerning Bill 54. In fact, i'~r.

Soeaker, J would like to start off at the beginning by reading what the bill says, "An Act To Provide For The Protection Of The Forests Of The Province From Insects And Disease". ·1 U 7 3 ··, .. , "t ..,

March 13, 1981 Tape No. 376 D\'J - 3 MR. G. '1\'A~l:l.EN: I think that it is the most carnou- flaged bill that ever came into this House. Mr. Speaker, do you know how this bill should read, 'An Act To Provide For The Protection Of The Minister'. That is what this bill is asking. If 1-1e want to look right at this bill, this bill is asking for the protection of the minister. Because we are goinq to have the spray pro­ gramme, the minister has already announced that we are going to have the spray programme and now all we are asking in this bill is

an act to provide for the protection of the minister and his officials. So, ~-l.r. Speaker, I hope that the media will finally realize that this bill does not have any­ thing at all to do with the spray progra~me. The soray pro­ gramme - this government has decided to go ahead with the spray programme. All this bill is saying is that the minister can on •.rhA.t he darn well wants to do. MR. TULK: And his independent (inaudible). MR. G. WARREN: And his independent- and he can just do 1-1hat he wants to do and no one can stop him. Now, Mr.

Speaker, to me, as a citizen of this Province,! believe that that is infringing on my riqhts. It is infringing on the rights of every other Newfoundlander and Labradorian. Mr. Speaker, I would say if this bill passes through this hon. House,I would give this govern­ ment another three days and they will be bringing in another bill for another minister, a bill probably to read something like this, 'An Act To Provide For The Protection Of The Labour Force'. The Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn) can hire and fire and do what he · well pleases. These kinds of bills will come into the House, ~1r.

Speaker, if we give one minister orotection from human society. it will happen 'l tJ 7 4 ''r 'I .. , ''I

clarch 13, 1981 Tape 377 '?K - l :·!R. 1'/ARREN: to other ministers of the Cro•,vn. 1\.nd this is one thing that I as one member of this House \•Till not stand for. MR. J. DINN: c·1R. l'iARREN: (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker, I will notget into debate with the Progressive Conservatives of this Province, but however, ~r. Speaker, I did notice one thing and this carne from the remarks of the member :or Stephenville (~lr. Stagg) and he said that 1972 ,ras the start of the spruce budworm. However, Mr. Speaker, I think 1972 was a disasterous year for Newfoundlanders.

In . fact, ~ewfoundland in 1972 had two plagues inflicted up on it, the snruce budw'Ol:m and the PC.Party. SOME HON. i'ffiMBERS: Right on! :'IR. \'7ARREN: There were two plagues in one year, the PC Party and the spruce bud worm. \'Jell, :Ylr. Speaker, how in the heck can Newfoundlanders <,.;i thstand such a barrage of infestation. Mr. Speaker, a bill ''An Act To Provide For The Protection Of The Forests Of The Province From Insects And Disease." Mr. Speaker, 1ve are talking about human rights. l~e are talking about the rights of the individual. In this bill 7 .l 'lti thout li.mi ting the generality of

section 7, the minister may take such measures as he deems necessary to protect the forests of the province from insects and disease.' Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe this section. under subsection Now, in taking such measures (1), 'T.he minister may use his own officers or may employ or authorize independent contractors to take such measures as the minister directs: 'I J 7 j . .

March 13, 1981 Tape 377 PK - 2 1-1R. WARREN: Then the bill clues up by saying, 'For the purpose of the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that an interim or permanent injunction may not be granted by a court against the minister, the Crown and so on.' Now, Mr. Speaker, this is where it infringes upon my rights or the right of any other person in this Province. Do you mean to say this House is going to bring a bill in that is telling the courts of the Provin:ce what to do and what not to do? !·1r.

Speaker, one of those days we might have a drunken driver who could clean out probably five or six human beings, and all of a sudden the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett ) could come in with a bill and say, 'look,we will not have the courts to prosecute or to bring in a verdict,charae against this driver! This means the same thing, you are infringing on the rights of the individual. And no way can any House of Assembly in any province or any provincial government have those rights. These rights should not be granted, Mr. Speaker.

So if this spray programme goe~ ahead for the ten or twelve days as is predicted, and for some reason - MR. STAGG: !~at about (inaudible)? MR. WARREN: I suggest to the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), if he wants to say anything, go back to his own seat or go outside altogether. MR. TULK: Outside is the best place. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot see hmv the PC Party and the Liberal Party ,who are in this House today ,. will allow the minister or give the minister that authority. Mr. Speaker, it is asking too much. \'ie have courts in this ·1 J 7 G . . .

:-la::-c~ 13, 1981 Ta;::e 317 ?K - 3 :-!R . \·:AaREN: ones to decide. Province and che cour=s should be ~~e Now, ~r. Speaker, as I \vas saying ea=lie::­ let us,for example ,go back to June OF Jcly or che last part of ~lay whenever the spraying is going to t:ake place and say ,:or example ,the spraying is going to take ?lace in t:he Gambo-Glen~lood area . ~OH, 1·lr . Speaker, I am wondering if the Department: o: Lands and Porests is going to do enough surveilla nce to see ~~at there are not: going to be any people in the .,,oods in chis area . l~hat about the •.-lildlife? Is t:here protect:ion for the >llildli:e?

This spray is going co :all dow·n and :ell che spruce budworm . ~ - J . CARTER : The wildlife (inaucibla ) . :,JR . lvARRE:-1 : 3ut ho•,;ever, i-1r. S~eaice:-, I s~ggest: to t:he member :or St . John's North (~1r. Carter ) to shut up coo . ar. Speaker, ! would like to be heard in si:ence by the way . HR . SPEAKER (11r . Simms) : Order, please! ?he hon . member request to be heard in silence, ai'.d he has t:hat: right . M_~ . Wlo.RREN : The hon . member for Torngat :-lount.ains. ~r . Speaker, I would say chat we cannot al lo1-1 this bill to pass through this hon . Eouse .

No·.v, be!ore I go any further I wish to say it is my ~o~est conviction ·1 J 7 7 '1 .. ,

-- March 13, 1981 Tape No. 378 SD - l MR. G. l·iTARP..EN: that I personally am against the spray prograrrme. I am completely against any spray programme because, 1·1r. Speaker, the health of the people is much more i~?ortant to me, as a human being in this Province then '.'lhether the trees are going to be eaten by the spruce bud·.vorm. \'le can protect these trees, Mr. Speaker, other than da~aging ~he lives of the people, there are other ways to protect the trees. Mr. Speaker, twenty-nine years in ~ew Brunswick and the spruce bud,·mrm is still there. MR. MARSHALL: 3o ~re the Tories. HR.

WAP..P..EN: So are the Tories there, twenty-nine years? MR. NEARY: No, they are not. MP... 'iTARP..EN: I would ask the hen. President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) to check his facts- In fact 1 the Tories are there :=or about another ti-ro months and then they are gone - MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. 'rlARP..EN : -but, Mr. Speaker, the spruce budworm will remain. 0Tow, "1r.

Speaker, here is what the paper said about the spruce budworm in New Brunswick. 'The evidence is overwhelming that chemical spraying simply increases the budworm problem, over-spraying simply increases the budworm problem.' And is this not a good suggestion by Gene Foster who said, 'It is time for government and industry to admit their mistakes and stop spending good money after bad.' Now, Mr. Speaker, I think that is a good lesson for this government tq learn.

The constant spraying is not doing a thing to help cure our sick forests . it is just an environmentally dangerous. ineffective dose of medicine applied every year to treat the sym::Jtoms of our 'I I~ 'l I .,; I lJ ...

!1arch 13, 1981 Tape No. 378 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: forest problems and not the cause. Mr. Speaker, it is the same thing as a person who has a real severe headache and that person is contented with having aspirinsday after day after day. The aspirins will only help to alleviate the pain but it will not cure the headache. And that is the same thing about this spray programme, it will onlv helo to alleviate it but it will not cure it, Mr. Speaker. MR. POw'ER: MR. WARREN: Are you against the spray programme? Yes, I am completely against the spray programme, yes.

Andi am surprised that the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Power) is for the spray programme. In fact, I would venture to say deep down in his intestinal - MR. NEARY: MR. 1-JARREN: (Inaudible) same as the Premier. - I would say the same as the Premier, personally 1 is against it. And I am completely against the spray programme because it is going to hurt and it is going to affect the medical lives of the people of this Province. And that is why I am against it ,because nothing has been proved, the minister has not proven anything, that the spray is not going to affect our medical lives. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh.

MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, yes, that report does not give any indication that it is medically safe. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, if you can show me any evidenc<- fter twenty-nine years in New Brunswick it is still not medically safe, so then, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. M&~BERS: MR. WARREN: Speaker - A.'l HON. MEMBER: against it . Oh, oh! I thoroughly understand, Mr. (Inaudible ) spray, but we are personally ·1 u 7 9 ''! •..

~!arch 13, 1951 Tape :-Jo . 3i8 so - 3 :·B . t·:~:UU::-1 : :·!r. Speaker, i:: 1 ::or e:,ample, ~·:he:'l ::hose ten or t•.11elve davs that this gover!'\ment plans to sorav- 1:: this bill is passed - and •,;e have , p::-obab ly 1 the same i<!nd o.: ·.,·eat:her ~hat \.;e had a couple of weeks ago w!'lere everything •.vas fogged in, completely fogged in , no aircraft vTere flying, :tot.hinc; ·.,'as i lyi:1g? There are just: O:'lly t:e.:l or t:•.·:e:ve ca ys i~ a year chat •.11e can spray 1 what happe.'"ls i: ~·;e get t:ha~ kind of weather?

Th e minister has his big ego, his big bill passed through and he cannot do a thing abcuc it: and all the mo:-tey - :·tR . :-ffi.~Y : Do you ~now 111hat ::.hey will do then? ':'hey ~·nll say t:hat God is a Liberal. ~!R . NAR .. .'~EN : They will call the man ~ho calls ~he shots a Liberal . So, )lr. Speaker, 111ha~ l a:n sayi::g is I am ?raying, I t.;ill pray day and night that •.•e •,;ill have !:he •,;orse Heat:her on record in ::-le•..,:oundland for those particular days ':.hat this government: is planning to spray.

Because it is giving the minister the complete auL~ority, supreme, it almost gives the :ni:tister the same privileges as GoC has, a~d I w~ sure, )tr . Speaker, he is not in that boat . Now , ~ . Spe~~er, as I said earlier, I was sur?risec to here the member :or Bay oE !sla~ds .. , u [, 0 ., '1

March 13, 1981 Tape 379 EC - 1 HR. WARREN: (Mr. Woodrow) saying it is $4.5 million. Now, ~x. Speaker, one of the holiest persons in this liouse is the hon. the member for Bay of Islands. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. WARREN: And, Mr. Speaker, to see that hon. gentleman get up and say there is going to be $4.5 million lost; Mr. Speaker, he is not thinking about the holy lives of this Province that may be lost. There are many lives that could be lost, many lives that could be endangered, Mr. Speaker. MR. WOODROW: Well, you ure not going to please everybody. Somebody is going to be the victim. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, the member is sayin~ someone has to be the victim.They will hit them wherever they are, or if your time is come you have to go regardless, that is what the member is saying. Mr. Speaker, I advise the hon. House that I will definitely be voting against this bill. In fact, maybe different from some members, I am going against this bill because I am against the spray. I am comP.letely against the spray, number one, and secondly, it is giving the minister supreme power. And, Mr.

Speaker, I do not want one of the physically smallest ministers in this government to have the power of stopping the courts from acting. And now, Mr. Speaker, this is what this bill is doing. And I hope that the media will finally try to get it across to the people of th.:! Province that the spray programme is going to go ahead - the minister already announced that. But this bill that we are debating today has practically - the only thing it has to do with the spray programme is to give the minister the power to stop the courts from acting. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if that is not a disgrace to human society, a disgrace that the people in "t.'lis Province may have the ., u 8 1 ., '·I ''I ''I

March 13, 1981 MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: valves. MR. WARREN: Tape 379 EC - 2 rest of their lives affected! They are removing the safety So anything safe at all is removed. Anything safe in any bill is removed. And I would venture to say just imagine now, next week, the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) is going to come in with a bill, and the bill is going to read something like: "An Act To Provide For The Protection Of The Department Of Education To Implement Grade XII" regardless of whether it is damaging or not, sort of thing.

You know, these kinds of bills are going to be brought in, and it is going to give the minister the full authority, 'yes' or 'no'. Why bring it into the House of Assembly? Why bring it into the House of Assembly? MR. NEARY: They are going to do away with the House of Assembly. MR. WARREN: You people have thirty-three members. And let us face it, every bill that you people bring in will be passed because you have thirty-three members. But that is only going to last for a litt~e while, Mr. Speaker. I would say the thirty-three members will be reduced drastically when the next election is called, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: When the next election is called, Mr. Speake~, there will not be thirty-three members - yes, there will be thirty-three members over there, but they will have a different colour blood, they will not have blue blood, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: They will have red. SOME HON. ~~BERS: Hear, hear! MR. WAFF .EN: There will be thirty-three members over there. And I can see now the members who are going to ·1 uS 2 .. ''I ''I •·t

:·:a::ch 13 , 1981 :·B • :·:ARRE~ : election ~s called . SO!I!.E HON • ,.!.E~lBERS : :·L~ • :~?..RREN : S C~lE f.O:-J . ~£..-qs : )8 . S?~A~Ea (Si~~s ) : Tape 379 EC - 3 go down the drain when the next Oh , oh! You are safe , Hr . Speaker! Hear, hea r! Ok ay, ! was about to call the ~on . member to relevance, but ! will let him proceed i! he is going to - SOH£ HON. MEt-iBERS : ?.ear, hear ! ~:R. WAR..ttRN : ~1r. Speaker , I ;.;ill tell the ho:1 .

Eouse that I think. it is di sgu;=;ti ng , it is humiliating, it is disgra ce:u l, it is uncalled for and it is even unconstitut ional to have a government of this day bring a bill into this House that will disrupt the rig hts of the indiv~dual in this Provi nce . Now , Mr . Sp eaker, I cannot see - you know , ~lr. Speaker, I feel ashamed sometimes , I fee l really ashamed, Mr . Spea ~er, that ·r a c J ., .. , '1 •. ,

2larch 13, 1981 Tape 380 PK - 1 HR. IVARREN: the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands - SOME HON. MEMBERS: .MR. WARREN: Oh, oh! \Vhen the time is called at one o'clock, when we adjourn at one o'clock, the minister can leave this Chamber and go out and let the public of this Province see the minister and the minister holding his head high, but the minister - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The hon. member is struggling and so is the Chair, and I would ask han. members if they have to have conversations, would they, maybe, have them outside the Chamber. The han. member for Torngat Mountains. JI.1R.

WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am ashamed to be a member of this han. House, and to knm'l that once we adjourn for the day that the han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) can go outside of the Chamber and hold his head high because he is proud that a bill such as this is comingin to give him the sole authority to advise the courts what to do and what not to do. Mr. Spe~ker, is that not shameful? MR. THOMS: l>!R. vlARREN: Do not show any shame (inaudible). Is that not shameful, ~r.

Speaker, that a ~inister of the Crown can go out and let the public see the minister going aro•1"1-'l ,.,;_ th his head cocked in the air, so high and mighty while saying to the courts, you can do what you want to doi' Now, !1\r. Speaker, that is against democracy, it is shameful, it is ridiculous, it is disgusting, it is hu~iliating and everything else, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: It brings out the character of the government. ·1 J G ;, ''I .... ,

~!arch 13,1981 Tape 380 PK - 2 HR. WARREN: \>Then the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) spoke he spoke about the lives of the people. And a couple of times he was interrupted,especially by the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) and the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). We are all concerned. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am concerned to about the work force - . '\N HON . MEMBER : And the great galoot from St. John's North . MR. WARREN: - in this Province. I a!'l sure the :~inister of Labour and 1-lanpower (Mr. Dinn) is concerned.

He does not care about the people on strike at the College of Trades and Workers' Compensation - MR. NEARY: Only when itfu convenient for him (inaudible) protecting the jobs of the workers. MR. I'JARREN: I am concerned - MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): Order, please~ The hon. member has asked for the right to be heard in silence. MR. WARREN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WARREN: I am concerned, Mr. Speaker - He cannot use that argument. - that we will not have 18,00 people working in our forests if our forests are des~royed by the budworm. I am concerned about that.

But this government is so high and mighty that they can create jobs overnight. That is the idea that the Minister of Labour and 11anpower is givino to the people, that they are creating jobs overnight. MR. TULK: He has 18,000, thanks to the federal government. MR. WARREN: So, 1-lr. Speaker, my concern is as I said time and time again,is the lives of the people, the health and welfare of the people of this Province. Now, Mr. ·1 J 6 S '·I '' I '·I

March 13, 1981 Tape 380 PK - 3 1-!R.WARREN: Speaker, a person can get up and say to me, well,the 18,000 jobs are in trouble. Yes, Mr. Speaker, but not only are the 18,000 jobs in trouble if the spruce budworm spray programme does not go ahead, there are 500,080 people i