October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1657 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Tuesday, October 26, 1976 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR. SPEAKER: May I just draw the attention of hon. members to the position on the Order Paper of Bill No. 223, which should of course have retained its position at the head of the list because debate did not start until after 10 minutes past 5. This will be rectified on the next Order Paper. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 84 The Education Statutes Amendment Act, 1976 MR. KOZIAK: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 84, being The Education Statutes Amend­ ment Act, 1976. This bill, Mr. Speaker, provides for amendments to four statutes: The School Act, The School Buildings Act, The School Election Act, and The Alberta School Trustees' Association Act. In the case of the latter it will authorize the Provincial Treasurer to guarantee the capital indebte­ dness of the association. With respect to The School Act and The School Election Act, Mr. Speaker, it provides consistency with The Election Act of Alberta in eliminating the words "British subject" from the qualifications of electors.

It also clarifies the defini­ tion of "elector" for other purposes of the acts. An amendment to The School Act of current inter­ est will eliminate the present prohibition which prevents school boards from paying teachers for absences due to pregnancy. Generally, Mr. Speaker, the amendments will update the provisions of the four acts referred to in the bill. DR. BUCK: It's not a money bill? [Leave granted; Bill 84 introduced and read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a response to Motion for a Return No. 224. DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table the annual report of Alberta Disaster Services for the year ending March 31, 1976. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased to intro­ duce to you, sir, and through you to the members of this House, some 60 students from Central Junior High School in Red Deer. They are in the public gallery and are accompanied on this occasion by two teachers, Kathryn Marriott and Jim Kerr. Could I ask that they rise and receive the welcome of the House. MR. TESOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to intro­ duce to you, and through you to the members of this Assembly, some 40 Grades 7, 8, and 9 students from the "now" constituency of Lac La Biche-McMurray. The students are from the Wandering River School. They are accompanied by their principal Mr. McCul- lough and their teacher Miss Gilland. I would ask them to rise and receive the welcome of this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. Leader of the Opposi­ tion revert to Introduction of Bills? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS (reversion) Bill 226

An Act to Amend The Financial Administration Act MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 226,

An Act to Amend The Financial Administration Act. The amendment would require the Provincial Treasurer to audit the books of the Alberta Energy Company and Pacific Western Air­ lines, in which the people of Alberta have over $100 million invested. [Leave granted; Bill 226 introduced and read a first time] head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Department of Agriculture MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I have a brief ministerial statement. It is with regret that I advise the Assembly of the termination today, by cabinet, of John Duncan McArthur as a member and chairman of the Surface Rights Board. This action was taken because of a breach of the administration of trust funds.

1658 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Government Loans MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and ask if it is the common practice for the minister to present for the observation of government MLAs, in advance of the submission of orders in council for cabinet approval, a list of prospective loans to co-operatives. MR. HARLE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a supple­ mentary question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask if it is the practice of the Minister of Agriculture to submit a list of all loans to be approved by the Ag. Development Corporation to government MLAs before they are approved by the corporation. MR. MOORE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm very surprised by that question. I recall not very long ago telling members in the Assembly, and the hon. Leader of the Opposition, that in fact a list of loans approved by the corporation does not even come to my office, let alone to MLAs. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question to the Minister of Business Development and Tourism. Is it the practice of the Minister of Business Development and Tourism that all govern­ ment MLAs be provided with a list of AOC loans in their constituency in advance of approval? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, I should indicate my surprise as well. Of course not. I receive notification personally on some individual loans when I have asked for information, but no MLA in the House receives advance notice. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a supple­ mentary question to the Minister of Utilities and Telephones and ask if it is the practice of the minister that a list of rural gas co-op loans or guarantees be given to government backbenchers prior to the minis­ ter making the recommendation to Executive Council. DR. WARRACK: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I never refer to members of this House as backbenchers, but as members. I'm not involved in the guarantees other than the technical review that's necessary by the department, whether it be for grants or guarantees.

It's not a systematic practice at the present time to indicate those in advance, but to deal with them as they materialize and as the checking is completed. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Is it the practice of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to provide to government backbenchers a list of loans for rural gas co-ops before the minister takes the recommendation to Executive Council? MR. HARLE: Mr.

Speaker, I notify the members of the Legislature on the government side of the House of the request made to me to present orders in council to cabinet for loans where government guarantees are requested. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a similar question to the Minister of Recreation, Parks and Wildlife and ask if it is the minister's policy to submit a list of all loans going to those constituencies which are represented by government backbenchers prior to the minister's approval of the loans. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, no. The process is usually after the applications are approved.

The documents are then forwarded and we notify the MLA, whoever he may be. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, the same question to the Minister of Culture. Is it his practice to submit to government backbenchers a list of cultural loans to be considered in his constituency prior to approval by the minister or by cabinet? MR. SCHMID: No, Mr. Speaker. But because of the interest government members take in their constitu­ ency they may sometimes come to the Minister of Culture and say they are informed that a group in their constituency is going overseas or performing elsewhere.

Therefore it's the other way around, not the way the hon. Leader of the Opposition proposes. PWA Financial Position MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the second question to the Deputy Premier and ask if he's in a position to indicate to the Assembly the financial prospects of PWA for this year of operation. DR. HORNER: As I recall saying yesterday, Mr. Speaker, we were in a loss position at mid-term or the first six months because of the strike of the air traffic controllers which affected all airlines in Canada.

However, the information I have from the board of directors is that things have improved, and they hope to be in a break-even position by the end of this year. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. In the course of the minister's discussion with the directors of PWA, is he in a position to indicate to the House whether PWA will follow the same accounting procedures as last year in arriving at whether they break even or do in fact end up in a deficit situation? DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, I'd expect that they would follow the normal business accounting proce­ dures as they have in the past, and would follow the format of last year. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Deputy Premier. I raise the question, Mr. Speaker, because last year in the course of PWA's accounting procedures they strengthened out the period of depreciation. They sold and leased back one of the planes, and sold a sizable amount of excess equipment, which was reflected in their financial statement. Does the minister anticipate that similar

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1659 kinds of accounting procedures will be involved in PWA's financial statement this year, allowing them to show a profit? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition should be aware that the accounting practices put forward in last year's statement by Pacific Western Airlines — my information from the chairman of the board and other people knowledgea­ ble in the area is that this was a change in airline accounting generally because of the increased life span of the aircraft they were flying.

In other words, they were now able to take a longer term of deprecia­ tion because of their experience with those aircraft. It was therefore a general change of accounting practice within the airline industry. No special atten­ tion was given by the accountants of Pacific Western Airlines to their particular balance sheet. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Deputy Premier so there's no misunderstand­ ing. Was there a general change in accounting in the airline industry that led to the sale of the plane, then PWA leasing it back? Was this a general change across the industry? DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the Lead­ er of the Opposition, that is standard practice in the airline industry in a variety of ways. A great number of airline companies in fact lease their aircraft rather than own them outright. Indeed a number of them have sold their aircraft, then leased them back to improve their financial efficiencies in relation to their operations. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, just one further supple­ mentary question to the Deputy Premier.

Does the Deputy Premier then anticipate any general change in the accounting procedure of the airline industry this year which will be reflected in the PWA annual account? DR. BUCK: How many are you going to sell? MR. CLARK: How many are you going to sell? What are you . . . DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposi­ tion should go over the results of Pacific Western Airlines carefully. MR. CLARK: I have. DR.

HORNER: I'm sure he'll find that it has been run very effectively by a dedicated group of businessmen in both Alberta and British Columbia, and that they will, as they have in the past, follow proper business practices to operate it as a commercial enterprise. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could rephrase the question, because obviously I didn't make it clear to the Deputy Premier. Does the Deputy Premier anticipate any general change in the accounting procedures of PWA this year?

The Deputy Premier has said they only follow the procedures which change in the general industry, so I am asking the Deputy Premier: does he anticipate any general changes in the accounting procedure the air industry is going to use this year? DR. HORNER: Well, the short answer, Mr. Speaker, would be no. MR. CLARK: Good. DR. HORNER: The question, though, reflects a lack of understanding of the general accounting practices that have taken place in the airline industry. DR. WALKER: A supplementary to the Deputy Pre­ mier.

Did the federal injunction holding up the move from Vancouver to Calgary significantly add to the losses incurred by Pacific Western in the first six months of operation? DR. HORNER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would have to say that that unilateral political injunction certainly will add cost to the management of Pacific Western Airlines. DR. BUCK: He should have thought of that before he MR. CLARK: Bought it. DR. BUCK: . . . made the orders. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question [interjections] to the Deputy Premier.

Can the Deputy Premier indicate to the Legislature if he foresees the sale of any more planes in a lease-back arrangement? DR. HORNER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that would be a management decision that would come about after a recommendation from the management team to the board of directors. So far I have not had any indica­ tion from the chairman of the board that there would be any adjustment of that kind. But I would hope that as an efficient, forward-looking airline they would make the adjustments in equipment necessary for the effective and efficient operation of that airline. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. DR.

BUCK: Mr. Speaker, just on a point of clarifica­ tion to the Deputy Premier. Does the Deputy Premier know or can he indicate why just one or two planes were sold and leased back, or was this just the start of an ongoing policy? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated pre­ viously to the Leader of the Opposition, the question of sale and leasing back of aircraft is a common practice amongst airlines around the world and is a matter of effective and efficient financial operation of one's company. DR. BUCK: It makes you look good anyway. MR. LOUGHEED: You're on the wrong issue, Bobby boy.

1660 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 House Prices MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Does the minister have any information for consumers or purchasers of homes as to whether there has currently been any significant decline in the pricing of new homes? MR. HARLE: Well, Mr. Speaker, a number of things have happened. I understand that mortgage compa­ nies are advising applicants for purchases of new homes that they should really seriously consider the present price level.

As a result of what I think is some consumer resistance to the present price levels, it has come to my attention that in certain cases prices appear to be reduced some 18 to 25 per cent. I think this is the market place working very effectively. Advisory Committee on Corrections DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the hon. Solicitor General. I would like to know, Mr. Speaker, from the hon. minister why there was a lack of consultation between the Solicitor General and the Advisory Committee on Corrections before the corrections act, 1976, was brought in. MR. FARRAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have to explain the function of the Advisory Committee on Corrections. It advises the minister on problems the minister requires advice on. So far as The Corrections Act is concerned they did have input in certain specific areas they have been studying, but they receive assignments from the minister to undertake a review of various policies according to my judgment. They are to advise me. Therefore, I regard them as a body that operates on specific assignment. DR. BUCK: Unbelievable. Mr. Speaker, to the minis­ ter.

Can the minister advise the Legislature how often the Advisory Committee on Corrections meets, or is the minister saying just at the call of the minister? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, no. I imagine they oper­ ate at the call of the chairman. I haven't got before me the full details of the meetings they have held over the last year, but I don't attempt to interfere in their day-to-day operations when they are seeking to arrive at advice to give me. DR. BUCK: Point of clarification. I might have missed this, Mr. Minister. I believe the minister indicated, Mr.

Speaker, that there was no consultation with the Advisory Committee on Corrections prior to the draft­ ing of The Corrections Act. Is that true? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, the assignments the cor­ rections committee has had over the last year have been in relation to young offenders and liquor problems in connection with native Albertans. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is it the intention of the minister to take the amendments the minister has brought to the House to the corrections advisory committee and get their advice prior to the bill proceeding at this session? MR.

FARRAN: No it is not, Mr. Speaker. MR. CLARK: Supplementary question to the minister. Is it then the position of the government that the legislation before the House will have no effect at all on young offenders? MR. FARRAN: No, I don't follow the logic of the hon. leader's remark. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can enlighten the hon. minister.

If the committee has been asked to give advice to the minister on young offenders and the committee has not been asked to look at this legislation, then one draws the conclusion that this legislation, in the minister's view anyway, is going to have no effect at all on young offenders. MR. FARRAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's an extraor­ dinary exercise in logic. I just don't understand at all the purport of the remark. The examination of young offender legislation was the examination of proposed legislation on a federal level, called Young [Persons] in Conflict with the Law.

At the present time, of course, my department is not responsible for juvenile delinquents under the age of 16. Native Housing Program MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works. Have there been any recent changes in the native housing program for processing applications for new homes for our native people? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of changes with respect both to the manner of monitoring the need and to the delivery process for supplying rural and native housing for the Metis community that qualifies. MR.

MANDEVILLE: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the same contractor who builds the native houses in Faust be building the houses in Calling Lake? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, that is a question of such detail that I would have to check into the matter and report to the member. MR. MANDEVILLE: A final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate whether the tenders invited for 30 mobile homes under the emergency housing program will be used for native housing? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, the rural and native hous­ ing program is a joint program between the federal

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1661 and provincial governments. However, the provincial government has a number of housing programs specifically provincial in nature which supply housing for Metis people, and one is the emergency mobile- home housing program. This housing program is budgeted to supply approximately 75 emergency trai­ lers to Metis families across northern Alberta. Indeed the tender advertisement the member has just recent­ ly seen is in relation to the supply of 30 such trailers on an emergency basis to families throughout the north.

It's totally a provincially funded program and has nothing to do with the federal government. Drumheller Area Park MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Recreation, Parks and Wildlife. Has the general plan for the proposed provincial park on the old Midland Mine property in Drumheller been completed? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, no, not quite finalized. I possibly could check, Mr. Speaker, and give the hon. member the exact date when we hope to have that completion. I should point out too that I appreciate the interest, participation, and patience the hon. member has shown to this point.

Kidney Transplants — Foothills Hospital MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works. I wonder if the minister can inform the House if a team of experts was put together from Canada and across the United States to make some form of recommendation to the Foothills Hospital in Calgary to put the kidney transplant back on the track. I wonder if such a committee in fact existed. MR. BATIUK: You said Minister of Housing, not Hospitals. MR. KUSHNER: Hospitals. Did I say Housing? If I said Housing . . . Mr. Speaker, did I say Housing? I'm very sorry, Mr.

Speaker. I refer that to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I wasn't going to let the Minister of Housing answer that question anyway. MR. YURKO: I wasn't prepared to answer it. MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I reported to the Legisla­ ture, I believe last week in reply to a similar question from the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View, that the Foothills Hospital had chosen the new kidney transplant team, that they're in the process of some last minute arrangements, and would be making a public announcement very shortly. I cannot add further to the comments I made at that time.

MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the minister. In fact has a committee of this sort been structured and made a report to the board? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, more than that. The hospital formed a committee some months ago for the reinstitution of the kidney transplant team.

That committee has looked at the parameters for formulat­ ing the kidney transplant team and has actually worked with the administration and the hospital board in the selection of people, and in some cases some of the training, in order to place the profes­ sionals in the necessary positions to round out the kidney transplant team. That process has reached the stage where they have identified the people, and they will be making a public announcement very shortly. MR. KUSHNER: A supplementary question to the minister. Will the board actually abide by the recommendation of the committee? MR. MINIELY: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the committee is working on behalf of the board, so I assume that matter will be resolved between the committee and the Foothills Hospital board and administration. MR. KUSHNER: A further supplementary question to the minister. Is it fair to ask the minister at this time if the person chosen is actually from the city of Calgary or outside of Canada? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, no I do not think that is something I feel the Foothills Hospital board will include in its public announcement. MR.

KUSHNER: Is the minister in a position to inform this House basically when this announcement will be forthcoming? I understand the announcement would have been made in September, if I remember reading the newspaper correctly. Now we're coming to the end of October. As late as last night again, Mr. Speaker, I have been asked if this information is available at this time. MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I think it's important for me to emphasize that it's very important that the timing and actual formulation of the team be within the timing and satisfaction of the administration and the Foothills Hospital board.

I think that's their prerogative. All they have advised me is that they believe in a very short period they will be prepared to make the announcement. MR. CLARK: A supplementary question. Is the minis­ ter in a position to indicate to the Assembly, from his discussions with the board, if one of the problems the board is having in finalizing the team at the Foothills really is a result of the impending court cases flowing from the Dr. Abouna situation? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, the conversations I've had with the chairman of the board, Mr. Black, and the administrator of the Foothills Hospital, Mr.

Ralph Coombs, are that those two matters are very unrelated. Calgary Power Rate Application MR. LITTLE: Mr. Speaker, may I address my question to the hon. Minister of Utilities and Telephones.

1662 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 Could the minister advise the Assembly whether Calgary Power has recently made application for a rate increase? DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, I am advised that yes­ terday Calgary Power did make application to the Alberta Public Utilities Board for rate increases in the coming period beginning January 1, 1977. MR. LITTLE: A supplementary to the minister. Could he further advise the Assembly when the last rate application was received from Calgary Power? DR. WARRACK: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure of the filing date of the application, but I know there had been some final adjustment as a result of the last go-round, so to speak, of hearings on rate applica­ tions by Calgary Power before the Public Utilities Board. I believe these went into effect during the course of 1973 and 1975, although I would need to check for sure. Mr. Speaker, I might add that I understand the present application that was posed yesterday would ask for a 14.8 per cent increase, which roughly would work out to $2.40 on the monthly residential bill. MR. APPLEBY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the minister if such an increase would have to be referred to the controls board for approval. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is probably asking a question on a matter of legal opinion, but perhaps the minister could answer briefly. DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, yes I can. The answer is no.

The reason is that with respect to the cost pass-throughs referred to in the 1975 Thanksgiving program announced by the federal government, the Public Utilities Board does exactly that function of assessing the cost pass-through information and makes a judgment as to whether the rate increases asked for are justified. Investigation — Surface Rights Board MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minis­ ter of Agriculture flows from the ministerial an­ nouncement the minister made today. I haven't been able to get a copy of that announcement.

But my question to the minister is: following the announce­ ment the minister made, is it the intention of the government, through the Attorney General, to lay charges? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I called in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and they are conducting an investigation at the moment. I expect that investi­ gation will take at least a few days to conclude. Because it's in the investigative stage it would be inappropriate for me to make any further comment other than to say that if for some reason the Crown concludes there are to be no charges, I would be happy to indicate the reasons.

I think we should allow the investigation to proceed to its normal conclusion, which I think would be a few days. Alberta Game Farm DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my ques­ tion to the minister of lands, forests, and recreation. Can the minister indicate what negotiations are going on between the Game Farm Foundation and the minister's office in regard to the purchase of the Alberta Game Farm? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, you had me confused: the minister of lands and forests and recreation.

As the Minister of Recreation, Parks and Wildlife I assume the question was directed to me, relative to the foundation that has submitted a document to us for review. As I pointed out to the hon. member on the opening day of the session, Mr. Speaker, we had requested additional information. We received some additional information yesterday, and that is currently being reviewed. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate to the Legislature when he or the government will be making some decision on the game farm? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, again to the hon. member.

As soon as we have had a proper opportunity to review and discuss with the people who submitted the document, we will hopefully be making some comments. Senior Citizens' Lodge — Calgary MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct this question to the Minister of Housing and Public Works this time. My question is: can the minister advise the House if the tenders in fact were awarded for the construction of the senior citizens' lodge in Forest Lawn? MR. YURKO: As you probably know, Mr.

Speaker, my department is responsible for simply hundreds, in fact thousands, of projects throughout the province in both the housing and public works areas, and in several other areas for other departments. I don't keep at my fingertips just when and where each tender is accepted, even though I do sign the final signature on the approval of the tendering price. So it's not possible for me to answer the question directly, but I would certainly be pleased to get the information and offer it to the member. Nursing Homes Financing MR. MANDEVILLE: My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the hon.

Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. Could the minister indicate whether consideration is being given by the Hospital Commission with regard to changing the amount paid per patient-day to nursing homes? I am referring to nursing homes that have high capital cost. Are they anticipating any changes for amounts paid to these homes?

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1663 MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, yes, we are working very closely with the Alberta hospital association nursing home committee at the present time, with the hope that by working together we will identify some of the historical problems that have existed with respect to the financing of nursing homes, ultimately leading, hopefully, to the development of a new nursing home financing policy. Tri-level Conference MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

It follows from the question I asked the minister on October 22 regarding the federal/provincial/municipal conference coming up, and the question of revenue sharing being on the agenda. At that time the minister indicated he was involved that very day in discussion with municipali­ ties in Alberta. The question now is: has the minister agreed to have the matter of revenue sharing placed on the agenda for the tri-level confer­ ence on December 9? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad the hon. leader raised that question, because last time he asked it he answered himself.

But I'm very pleased to advise the House that it is on the agenda on December 9. Bighorn Sheep DR. BUCK: I'd like to address a question to the Minister of parks, recreation and wildlife. The Pre­ mier plays his little game of musical chairs so often, it's pretty difficult to keep up with these moves. [interjections] Mr. Speaker, it's not only me who's having that trouble; the people out there who pay our wages are having that same problem. Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of parks, recreation and wildlife is: can the minister report at this time if there have been any results from the study where the members of his department were killing bighorn sheep ewes to try to find out whatever they are trying to find out? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I should clarify one point. As I said a moment ago, the ministry is the Department of Recreation, Parks and Wildlife. It would make it a little simpler if you would use the initials RPW, not PRW. But in response to your question, I'm really not clear what it is you're looking for. MR.

SPEAKER: Could the hon. minister deal with the question using the ordinary parliamentary form of address. DR. BUCK: My question to the hon. minister is: can the minister indicate to the Legislature why the slaughter of bighorn ewes has been going on with the particular study under discussion? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, first of all, if I may indicate to the hon. member, the use of the word "slaughter" is not appropriate in this particular term. There is a controlled program in which some ewes are in fact shot and the details of that particular project is to whether the benefit is there. Mr.

Speaker, I probably should indicate, to the hon. member that I would rather get some further informa­ tion and pass it on to him. Grants — Auditor's Recommendations MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a ques­ tion to the Provincial Treasurer and ask if he is in a position today to indicate whether the government has established the procedure recommended by the Provincial Auditor on the question of grants — whether a third-party review is being carried out on all grant applications, be that third party either the Treasury Board or some other agency within the minister's department. MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, I had indicated, in answer to some questions by the hon. Leader of the Opposi­ tion yesterday, that I wanted to do some checking before responding to them. I haven't been able to complete the checking I was referring to regarding the things that had been done, because today was a cabinet day. But I perhaps can partially answer the questions he raised yesterday. Mr. Speaker, as a result of receiving the report of the Auditor late last year, we began a total review of the legislation now on the statute books relating to grants.

That is a very substantial job because there is a list three pages long of acts that authorize the making of grants. Our intention is to reduce the number of granting provisions in legislation to the minimum and to introduce a uniform granting legisla­ tive provision insofar as that is practical. That was one of the recommendations made by the Provincial Auditor. That work is nearing completion, and I would expect we would be able to introduce the bill very early in the spring session. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, the total recommenda­ tions by the Auditor have also to be placed in the context of two other pieces of legislation, which I mentioned earlier in the House and which we hope­ fully anticipate introducing early in the spring legisla­ tion. One is the auditor general act and the other is amendments or replacements to The Financial Ad­ ministration Act, which would create the post of controller.

The essence of those two pieces of legislation will be the dividing of the pre-audit and post-audit func­ tions, which are now within the Auditor's office, into a post-audit function in the Auditor's office and a pre-audit function in the controller's office. As I say, the recommendations are being considered as we work our way through that legislation. Some have been acted upon by departments, Mr. Speaker.

I recall in the House some time ago my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, advising the House of changes that had been made in areas under his administration dealing with regulations and the making of grants. It was also a recommendation that wherever possi­

1664 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 ble, grants that are to be made during an upcoming fiscal year be predetermined at the time the estimates are being prepared for the fiscal year. That is being done by request from Treasury to the departments. Coming to the specific question the Leader of the Opposition asked regarding a third-party review, which was a recommendation in the Auditor's report, we've been giving consideration to that for some time. Frankly, Mr.

Speaker, the difficulty I had with it is that it is performing essentially the function we would anticipate being performed at the pre-audit level by the controller. Frankly, Mr. Speaker, I have some difficulty recommending to my colleagues the addition of another administrative body — whether it be within an existing department or otherwise, it's the addition of people — unless it will be performing a function that would not otherwise be performed. As I indicated, we'll deal with this at greater length at the time the financial administration legislation is before the House.

I would expect that to be done by the controller. One of the other questions the Leader of the Opposition asked yesterday dealt with the prepublica- tion of grants, in particular making them available to the House at the time of the estimates. Frankly, I have been struggling with that recommendation for some months in an effort to find a practical way in which it can be put in place. The Members of the Legislative Assembly would have to keep in mind that the estimates are prepared substantially more than a year before some of the funds would be paid out.

In the case of grants it is certainly impossible to ascertain exactly who's going to get grants during the coming fiscal year. There are a number of grant programs where you simply have to wait until the facts occur before you know who the eligible recipi­ ents are. I can think of grants such as an application by a band to take a trip to Europe or something of that nature — that fact occurs during the fiscal year. There's no way you can predetermine that. In addition, as to size we frequently approve in this Assembly an allotment of funds, if you like, for a particular grant program.

That is then distributed among various possible recipients. It may be that grants to various possible recipients will go up or down during the year, depending on the applicants and the various circumstances. So while I haven't abandoned the possibility of some prepublication, as was recommended, I frankly haven't yet been able to find a practical way to do it.

At the time the Estimates are going through the House, there will of course be the opportunity for Members of the Legislative Assembly to ask ministers who are administering grant programs about the particulars, as they are then determinable, of the grants that may be made from that appropriation. While commenting on this general area, Mr. Speaker, I might say there was a question regarding whether every grant program was under the control of the appropriate deputy minister. I simply want to say to the House that if that question referred to policy control, the answer is no.

The policy control of all grant programs is under the minister, the Execu­ tive Council, or the Legislative Assembly, as the case may be. With respect to administrative control, it is of course under a deputy minister or equivalent. I might conclude — because I am going to give additional information at a later date I am sure, Mr. Speaker — by saying that there were several areas of the recommendation which would fall within the Auditor's control or function in his pre-audit capacity.

Since yesterday I haven't had a chance to be brought up to date on what the Auditor has done in all these areas, although I have had a number of discussions with him since the time of the report. But I would like to have a chat with him again before giving any additional detail in that area. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister a supplementary question. If I might be permitted this

preamble, I recognize the auditor general legislation is in the works. But the area I would like to zero in on is: what steps have been taken since December last year until the auditor general is in place and the controller's responsibilities are set out? From December of last year until whenever the auditor general and the controller get their responsibilities set out, has the government taken any steps to beef up the safeguards as far as problems in the area of grants are concerned? MR.

SPEAKER: While recognizing the extreme impor­ tance of the subject, being a money matter which is one of the paramount concerns of the Assembly, I would have to ask the minister whether this answer could be made reasonably brief. We are running toward the end of the question period, and we have another hon. member who would like to ask a question. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I think the answer to that will be a little lengthy and falls within the area I have earlier indicated I wanted to review with the Auditor.

Some of the steps have been taken by the govern­ ment, such as review of the legislation I have talked about, the request of departments to specify the grants which is referred to in the second recommen­ dation of the Auditor's report. But a number of the other recommendations will be implemented through the Auditor's office. MR. CLARK: Might I ask one further supplementary question.

This question will be to the Premier and flows from Recommendation 14 of the Auditor's report: "In any event, it should be mandatory that Deputy Ministers and other senior officials accept the responsibilities which should be inherent in the posi­ tions they hold." Has the Premier met with the deputy ministers, in light of the importance of this matter, and given any directive to deputy ministers either orally or written, flowing from the Auditor's report? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat sur­ prised at the question for two reasons.

As I under­ stood remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition, he did not agree with that recommendation. Second­ ly, we have answered it in some detail and refer the hon. leader to Hansard May 10, 1976, page 1194. Home Nursing Care DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. I wonder if the minister would advise the House if, in developing his nursing home policy, he is considering as an

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1665 option the subsidization of nursing home type of patients when they remain at home and receive nursing home care in their homes, thus saving on capital and operating costs which result with the development of an excessive number of nursing homes and auxiliary hospitals. I suggest, Mr. Speak­ er, that it would of course improve their emotional outlook. MR. MINIELY: Mr.

Speaker, I think the primary policy responsibility in home care rests with my colleague the Minister of Social Services and Community Health, although we are looking at the area in joint planning between Social Services and Community Health, and Hospitals and Medical Care. I would refer the question to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. MISS HUNLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I can only supplement the answer of my colleague by saying that I am interpreting the hon. member's question as referring to home care, which is an area we are reviewing to see how it can best be handled throughout the province and, at the same time assessing the pilot programs we have had in existence over the past two years. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr.

Speaker, as a supplementary to that, in addition to the home care program I am actually referring to subsidization in a direct way to nursing home type of patients to remain at home, and that subsidization would assist the people who are taking care of these patients. I wonder if the minister would consider that as a possible alternative to subsidization in an institution. MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, that's not an unusual request we receive, not only about patients for nursing homes but people who require any type of institutional care.

Of course the hon. member will realize that there are many of those and that the costs would be extremely high, certainly not as high as keeping people in institutions. But we do have within my department special programs that shore up families and assist them in keeping perhaps their handicapped children at home. Some are pilot pro­ grams, and our feedback from those has been excel­ lent. The resource centres for Edmonton will be built around that, because we believe the home is the best place whenever possible.

So it is part of our philosophy, but an actual subsidization in order to pay people to keep those for whom they are responsible at home is perhaps going farther than I had conceived it when we were working on the plan. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct just a very brief question to the Provincial Treasurer. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We have run consider­ ably past the time for the question period. Possibly the hon. leader could ask the question tomorrow. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: I've been asked to announce that the meeting of the Public Accounts Committee, which was scheduled for tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, will in fact be held, notwithstanding an unauthorized amendment to one of the notices that said it wouldn't be. head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, noticing that two mem­ bers of the opposition opposite who have motions on the Order Paper are absent, and anticipating they may wish them to stand, I therefore move that the following motions for returns stand and maintain their place on the Order Paper: 204, 212, 215, 222, and 226. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to the motion by the acting Government House Leader, might I say we agree, with the exception of Motion 212. My colleague Dr. Buck, who adjourned the debate, has an amendment to propose which, I believe, has been discussed with the Minister of Housing and Public Works and is agreeable. So could I make that amendment to delete 212? [Motion carried] 212. Mr. R.

Speaker proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: All land and buildings leased by a Government of Alberta department, board, commission, and agency outside the cities of Edmonton and Calgary as at October 13, 1976, giving in each case: (1) the address of the leased space (2) the total amount of leased space (3) the rate of rent (4) the name of the landlord (5) the name of the occupant [Adjourned debate: Dr. Buck] DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, to continue the debate on 212, I would just like to say that we have made an amendment — and I will pass that, Mr. Speaker — that Motion for a Return 212 be amended by striking out the words "land" and "buildings" and substituting the words "office, storage, warehouse, and laboratory space and any land and buildings covered by the rental payment for such space".

So it will read: All office space, storage, warehouse, and labora­ tory space and any land and buildings covered by the rental payment for such space leased by a Government of Alberta department, board, com­ mission or agency outside the cities of Edmonton and Calgary as of October 13, 1976, giving in each case . . . The balance remains the same. [Motion carried] HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

1666 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 213. Dr. Buck proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing:

(1) The total number of full-time female employees hired by the Government of Alberta during the period April 1, 1975 to March 31, 1976.

(2) The total number of full-time female employees released or retired or separated from employ­ ment for any other reason by the Government of Alberta during the period April 1, 1975 to March 31, 1976.

(3) The number of full-time female employees referred to in (1) who received salaries (

a) greater than $10,000 per year (

b) between $8,000 and $10,000 per year (

c) between $6,000 and $8,000 per year (

d) less than $6,000 per year.

(4) The average starting salary of full-time male employees hired by the Government of Alberta during the period April 1, 1975 to March 31, 1976

(5) The average starting salary of full-time female employees hired by the Government of Alberta during the period April 1, 1975 to March 31, 1976. [Motion carried] head: GOVERNMENT DESIGNATED BUSINESS Mr. Gogo proposed the following motion to the Assembly:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the Government of Alberta to develop a policy relating to province-wide lotteries that will limit them to single lotteries or short-term lottery series for the funding of specific charities, events, or projects and will prevent lotteries from being used as a means of generating general revenue for the province or a municipality. MR. GOGO: Mr.

Speaker, the reason I indicated I wanted the Assembly to debate this motion concern­ ing lotteries is that I feel it's a major problem in Canada and indeed a major concern to many Cana­ dians and both governments and those organizations that traditionally have used fund raising as a means of carrying out community services. At the outset, Mr. Speaker, I think all members should realize that lotteries are illegal. As a matter of fact, in Canada gambling of all kinds is illegal under the Criminal Code. The reason it's illegal, of course, is that a gambling contract is not enforceable at law.

However, it seems that people in their wisdom have, like everything else, made exceptions to the law, and under a particular

section of the Criminal Code they make exceptions and lotteries may be carried out. There are many types of lotteries that may be carried out. An example of a national lottery — that is, under the authority of the Parliament of Canada, they may authorize a lottery of a national nature — would be the Olympic Lottery. Also, under the Criminal Code the provinces are granted authority to carry out lotteries within their own jurisdictions. Subsequent to that, of course, charitable organiza­ tions, under the Attorneys General of each province, can carry out lotteries. Mr.

Speaker, I think the Olympic Lottery and the Western Canada Lottery are known to most members. However, I would just like to very briefly recap the history of the Olympic and Western Canada lotteries. It was thought that the anticipated deficit of $112 million or $114 million of the Olympic Games could perhaps be offset by running a lottery. So the Olympic Lottery was started with the anticipation of raising $25 million. Little did they dream that they were talking in terms of a billion-dollar deficit — $1.2 billion, $1.4 billion, or whatever.

Nor did they dream that through the appetites of the Canadian public, through modern merchandising like television — which can sell anything; I think politics proves that — they would realize $200 million. Mr. Speaker, it seems that it started a wave of lotteries across the country. Lotteries are a bit similar to charity, Mr. Speaker. Not many years ago charity was a virtue; today it has become an industry. The same with lotteries. How­ ever, I suggest there are some major concerns about lotteries. If they're not of significant importance to the nation today, they're certainly of significant importance to me.

I would hope to make the Assembly aware of some of my concerns, and perhaps other speakers will participate in the debate. Shortly after the recess not more than four or five months ago, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chretien of the Treasury Board, when asked about the continuation of lotteries in Canada, said: "You have as much chance of stopping lotteries [in Canada] as doing away with income tax." I don't like that, Mr. Speaker. I don't like that at all, because I really don't think it's fair for a minister of the Crown to be saying things like that.

My faith in the Crown indicates that there are many people in this province, particularly young people, who would accept it at face value. I really don't think that's the way it should be. Last year in Canada, according to the president of Alberta Energy Mr. Mitchell, Canadians spent $200 million more buying lottery tickets than they did purchasing Cana­ dian shares. Yet we hear all the time, why don't we buy Canada back. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, to a very large extent it's because of government endorsation and government motivation that encourages people to participate in lotteries. Mr.

Speaker, I don't wish to speak on what we would normally term raffles or bingos. I don't think certain churches in the world could stand any legisla­ tion against bingos. However, I think it's interesting to point out that since the Olympic Lottery and the Western Canada Lottery, an agreement was reached between this province and the Government of Cana­ da, and agreement was also reached between this province and the other three western provinces, about the continuation of the Western Canada Lot­ tery.

At the end of August 1976, when people thought the Olympic Lottery would be finished and the Western Canada Lottery would take over, little did they dream that eastern Canada or central Canada had other ideas. So we're into Loto Canada, the federal scheme. The province of Quebec has many lotteries. Ontario has the Wintario Lottery, and I saw an announcement the other day that they've now started a new one called the Provincial. What concerns me, Mr. Speaker, and I hope concerns other members, is that Alberta does not

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1667 follow the province of Ontario where, and I quote the Provincial Treasurer in Ontario, they're counting on lottery proceeds to pay for their health care system. Has our society reached the point where we have to rely on gambling proceeds to deliver adequate health care? It's almost ridiculous. Yet in an

article just the other day, October 21, he says that very thing. He's talking this year of the province of Ontario, for example, taking in $21 million on the new lottery alone. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, it's not a policy I would like to see established in Alberta. Indeed I would encourage members of the Assembly to assist me in urging the government to adopt a policy concerning lotteries in Alberta. I think we've all heard, with regard to the Western Canada Lottery, that there was a fellow in Edmonton who won recently, but he couldn't accept the money because it wasn't his turn.

That may sound a little facetious, but I suggest there are many people who buy lottery tickets on the understanding they're going to get a fair shake. If one looks at the system of selling lottery tickets, the very volume of lottery tickets, one rapidly realizes that the chances are not nearly what they purport to be. I've mentioned, Mr. Speaker, that television can sell anything, and I sincerely believe it can. I'm not against lotteries, not by a long shot. The 1975 Canada Winter Games, sponsored by Lethbridge and southern Alberta, had a lottery. Indeed, I was the chairman of that lottery. Why?

I don't know, but maybe it's because I wouldn't buy a lottery ticket. I suggest that lotteries have a valuable role in society and in the community. As I recall, we had the lottery for the Canada Winter Games for three specif­ ic reasons: one, to spark interest in the Games generally, to make Albertans and indeed Canadians aware that the Games were being held; secondly, to promote the Games, to promote not only participation at the athletic level but participation of the spectators; thirdly, and this was important, to raise funds.

I think we sold 125,000 lottery tickets and took in $250,000, and had all volunteer help. When the smoke cleared we turned over $70,000 to the Games. That makes me wonder when I see that one of the conditions of the Olympic Lottery is that you must pay the chartered banks of Canada $1 for every ticket, or 10 per cent. When we look at the proceeds the province of Alberta alone has received — and you know it wasn't particularly profitable in Alberta for Olympic Canada — we see that the provincial government received about $600,000, which is 5 per cent of the gross, from the first five draws in the first year alone.

So one can imagine the number of dollars provinces other than Alberta received across Canada. I would urge, Mr. Speaker, that this Assembly urge the government to adopt a policy, the same way as the resolution reads; we should have province-wide lotteries that will be limited to single lotteries or short-term lotteries for specific purposes.

For example, I think the Commonwealth Games coming up shortly in Alberta are going to need — indeed in meeting the requisites of what I think a lottery is all about; that is, the promotion and the sparking of interest of participants and financial support — some of that support.

A recent joint agreement was arrived at between the Government of Alberta and some of the other western provinces whereby the Western Canada Lottery in Alberta — and a corporation was created for this purpose — would be shared by the Edmonton Exhibition and the Calgary Exhibition Associations, and 50 per cent of those proceeds would go to the Commonwealth Games Foundation. I think that's laudable, I think it's a good idea, and I certainly think it's necessary.

But for Loto Canada to continue, for central Canada to continue to sell lottery tickets in western Canada using television and the press, the inference being created that you're not patriotic unless you buy the tickets, I think is just too much. So, Mr. Speaker, I would urge my fellow members of the Assembly to support me in this resolution in recommending to the government that we adopt a specific policy with regard to lotteries. Thank you. MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to speak to this motion proposed by the hon.

Member for Leth­ bridge West that would require the government to develop restrictive policies on lotteries of significant magnitude and to repudiate the adoption of lottery schemes. Mr. Speaker, I don't think the hon. member goes far enough. I'm afraid I cannot support his view that lotteries are good. I think they are an evil in our society. I think when we face up to the historical significance of what they've done to many societies, we'll realize what a dangerous course we're proceed­ ing on.

Ever since the city-states of Renaissance Italy first struck upon the idea of sponsoring games of chance for the purpose of underwriting expenditures of public benefit, the ethical questions surrounding legalized gambling and the credibility of the government as a "gaming entrepreneur" have surfaced time and time again. Unfortunately, the counter-arguments of good people have usually been written off as overemotion- al or too moralistic. To avoid such distracting accusa­ tions, I would like to approach the subject from a different viewpoint based on logic and facts. No mistake about it, Mr.

Speaker, the moral implications of this debate are paramount and inescapable. Yet an argument based upon moral principles seems least likely to hold sway over any of the minds in Canada today, and I find it regrettable that we have to leave this side of the question in abeyance for the time being. Mr. Speaker, we're not the first legislature to face the question of state-operated lottery schemes. In the past decade, dozens — I notice we have some agreement from the ministers on the front bench, and I hope by the time they're finished they'll have a different view on this.

We notice that some legisla­ tures have run these schemes, and they have done it with good intention. In North America $45 billion passes through gambling of various processes in the nation. Obviously, hard-pressed governments every­ where have tried to come up with various schemes whereby they could tap this tremendous source of money. It seems if governments have to dirty their hands, lotteries have been the cleanest way of doing it. There are several characteristics which make lot­ teries different from other forms of gambling such as poker or betting on race horses.

If we may borrow the wording of the Irish Legislature which established

1668 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 the world's most infamous system of lotteries some 45 years ago, a lottery or a sweepstake is: a means of drawing or distributing prizes by lot or chance whether with or without reference to the result of a future uncertain event . . . The American jurists have concurred with this basic definition. Most state laws define a lottery as being made up of three essentials: chance, prize, and consideration. Chance and prize are easily under­ stood. Consideration simply means the stake wagered by a gambler, be it the spending of five minutes of effort, or buying a $10 ticket.

Of all the gambling forms, the lottery is the closest to pure chance, offering no opportunity of really gambling to the sporting citizen. Gambler or not, few events can rival a lottery draw for sheer and absolute boredom. And that's probably why in Loto Canada they jazz it up so much through television, as they are trying to do. On the positive side of the argument it must be admitted that in theory lotteries seem most effective.

Apart from being the simplest and quickest gambling system to develop, lotteries return a higher percent­ age of net profit to the operator than any other form of organized gambling, more return in fact than any of the notorious operation of organized criminal syndi­ cates.

Whereas other forms of gambling might allow for breaking the house every now and then, the lottery is unbeatable from the operator's point of view. It is a "sure thing". This observation is not a new one. Two centuries ago Adam Smith pointed out the true essence of the beast when he wrote: There is not a more certain proposition in mathematics, than that the more [lottery] tickets you adventure upon, the more likely you are a loser. Adventure upon all the tickets in the lottery, and you lose for certain; and the greater the number of your tickets, the nearer you approach to this certainty. Mr.

Speaker, listing all the fine attributes of lottery schemes is enough to make any businessman wonder why this government didn't become a "gam­ ing entrepreneur" long ago. However, we are not businessmen when we are in this House. We are legislators, and the onus of our obligations involves examining the social side of the profit and loss sheet. But even more, accounting for the social cost, I must reject any argument for entry by the Government of Alberta or for us allowing any municipality to enter into the gaming business, because in almost every case, Mr. Speaker, lotteries do not work.

If you study the latest evaluation on the impact of lotteries in the United States or consult any of the several task forces charged with evaluating the performance of government-run games, only one answer will appear every time. Lotteries distort government priorities and generally fail to meet reasonable expectations of revenues.

If I may quote from the report of the task force on legalized gambling for the city of New York, undertak­ en in 1974: Although state-operated lotteries have spear­ headed the current wave of [legislation], they have failed, in most cases, to produce the revenues expected by their proponents. It's interesting to note that in 1968 Mr. Drapeau was running a $2 lottery. All you had to do was send $2 to city hall and your name was in the lottery. All he wanted to pay off at that time was $32 million. As the hon. member from Lethbridge said, he's now looking at a billion.

His chances of doing it are pretty slim, in my view. Mr. Speaker, there is no justification for the highly publicized expectation that the legalization of gambl­ ing will provide an important source of revenue for state treasuries. In a recent study of the socio­ economic consequence of lotteries in the United States a team of psychologists have come upon exactly the same truth.

Lotteries start in a flash of enthusiasm, pay high initial returns, but the weight of activity in a lottery enterprise tapers off quickly, and public interest can only be maintained by saturation advertising to a point where citizens grow tired of seeing their government wasting efforts in marketing a scheme that is essentially fraudulent. Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that we seem to want to take the experience around other parts of the world to suggest that this government could use these reasons for instituting lotteries. The first of these is the need for revenue.

The classic example of this is the Irish free state which started its lottery scheme during the depression to build hospitals. The hospital lotteries, known as the Irish Sweepstakes, were a remarkable success so long as few lotteries existed elsewhere. In effect, what the Irish system was doing was draining money away from all over the world, from other countries, and in most of those countries the lottery was illegal.

I think it's interest­ ing, quoting an official's comments: "They hailed it as a masterpiece, a milestone in the delicate art of separating suckers from their money." To give you an example of the kind of separation you were suffering, one of the people running it — and now I understand his son is running it — was making $300,000 a year. This was back in the year 1958, I believe, a long time before inflation set in. The second consideration causing governments to adopt lotteries is a need to undercut the revenue sources of organized crime. This was one of the reasons advanced in the United States.

It strikes me as a strange way to fight crime, but this was one of the plausible explanations. It seems to be the guiding principle behind the legislation in many forms of gambling in New York City. In this case, the munici­ pal government found that the businessmen and bankers of the underworld were very shrewd compe­ titors. They were capable of extending lines of credit to consumers and able to offer higher returns to gamblers since the illegal operators exempted them­ selves naturally from corporate income tax and, like other governments, New York City had to maximize its revenues.

To do this they, in effect, resorted to taxes on betting, lotteries, and to entering into the cut-throat part of lotteries in straight competition with the criminal element. We know what kind of finan­ cial mess New York City is in today. I think that since they've come into almost a state of bankruptcy, they've realized that the lottery is perhaps not generating the revenues they had anticipated. I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, no rational politician will ever admit that there is a third consideration motivat­ ing governments to embrace lottery schemes.

Since the establishment of government itself, administra­ tions liable to charges of wrong-doing or misman­ agement of public affairs have sought to distract, and

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1669 some people might even say entertain, their electors by providing amusements of one form or another. In the time of Rome they used to feed the Christians to the lions to take the mind of the mob off their empty stomachs. These days we wave before some poor citizen the possibility of winning a million dollars. But, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest any government that resorts to this is bankrupt of ideas and, most important of all, of principles. I think the federal government is exhibiting this with its Loto Canada.

That government is just falling apart, and to me it deserves to when it would resort to such schemes as it is promoting. Mr. Speaker, I have the greatest faith that the law makers of this province are wise enough to discount all these considerations. We know our government is planned with care and that no lottery will be needed to make up budgetary shortcomings, particularly in the fields of health and hospital care.

We know that our diligent police force and judicial system have checked organized crime from appearing in its most odious forms in Alberta, and that a lottery is not needed to combine the crime syndicates here. Mr. Speaker, let us now look at the other side of the balance sheet. Any talk of a government benefit­ ing from a lottery scheme or any form of legalized gambling is simplistic nonsense in my view. But if these arguments are reduced to myth, the cost page of our balance sheet remains as a grim statement. The real costs by a society that condones legalized gambling are not readily apparent.

We can all appre­ ciate that personal bankruptcy, marital breakdown, and job absenteeism, are more widespread in socie­ ties that place heavy emphasis on gambling. I will not belabor this point too much. However, I would ask that the members of this Assembly consid­ er two social costs of a lottery scheme. Studies carried out over the past few years have shown that gambling is practised proportionately by members of income groups. The poor in North America gamble as much as the rich. However, because of this, gambling is in effect a regressive practice. It costs the poor a greater proportion of their income.

To adopt a policy of using lotteries to fill govern­ ment coffers would be in effect introducing a regres­ sive tax, or a poor tax. To make this fair, it would have to be applied to all winnings. But such a tax would dissuade gamblers from participation, they would choose to wager their money in a jurisdiction that does not tax winnings. This naturally would give more opportunity to the criminal element once again to become more successful. The second point deals with the heart of the social problem.

On investigating lottery schemes around the world, you will find them to be most popular in those countries or regions where opportunity for individual advancement by way of work or sound investments does not exist. The society that per­ ceives itself to be strictly divided along class lines is most likely to have a lottery. I'm thinking now of the poor, stagnant parts of the Third World, also some older countries and perhaps even some of the older parts of Canada. Much research has been done to see why this correlation between gambling and poor vertical mobi­ lity exists.

Economists had worked it out several years ago. They discovered that in a closed society, a member of a lower income group will wager inordin­ ate amounts of money to effect a transition to the upper income level. A British expert on the behavior of gambling explains that when a person feels abso­ lutely powerless to determine his own fate and feels absolutely dependent on the whims of an employer or the favor of the state, that person is likely to gamble heavily. It's not his present situation that makes him gamble. He wants to get out of that situation.

One of the reasons advanced for lotteries in New York State was that it would give the person living in the ghetto a hope, a single hope that if he ever hit it lucky he would get out. If the members will allow me to refer to lotteries as a social symptom, then gambling is a disease of societies where the rich reign unchallenged and the poor cannot get out of their social condition. When governments adopt policies of legalized gambling, they are in effect saying they cannot provide social programs in keeping with the lines of individual upward mobility.

They are proclaiming for all to see that within their jurisdiction hard work and sound investment do not have a just reward. The only route to material success is the wheel of fortune. State lotteries are the legislative option of govern­ ments facing financial bankruptcy — and I'd say when you look at our federal government that they're also facing moral bankruptcy — and lacking in determination of power to meet their fiscal burdens head-on. In almost every case, you will find that those were the jurisdictions brinking on social bank­ ruptcy in terms of opportunity and imagination.

The governments chain themselves to a dependence on legalized gambling. Mr. Speaker, many people will say that the Roman Catholic Church supports bingo games, that it's quite an honest pursuit, quite harmless, and we shouldn't infringe on it. But I would like to quote here from Cardinal Leger of Montreal. This is back in 1955, but I think it's still pertinent. He said: It is well known that the people who make a practice of attending these games . . . and he's speaking now of bingo, . . . lose their sense of responsibility and neglect their duties.

Thus mothers neglect their house­ hold duties to attend the bingo games, where they think they will find their fortune, and chil­ dren who become habituated to making their living . . . on games of chance will not later on accept the responsibility of earning their living by serious work. For the above reasons, I have asked all priests in my diocese to forbid bingos in their Churches and their schools. Now, Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to quote from Gambling: Should it be Legalized? This is a report published by the Chicago Crime Commission. I would just like to quote a few lines on gambling and its ill effects.

The benefactors of legalized lotteries were largely the racketeers who (frequently) took over the lottery industry. The political power of the opera­ tors frequently became alarming. The frauds and social evils were so enormous that the substan­ tial citizens of the various states determined that action was imperative. It goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, quoting from The Christian Science Monitor, of June 1, 1945: No enlightened government resorts to such

1670 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 schemes now . . . They are a throwback to a type of rule that cared little or nothing for the welfare of the masses. For it is the people that pay. Those who can ill afford it are attracted by such schemes . . . It is not the rich who suffer, but the poor. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I find it regrettable that our government has moved in a direction that may be aiding and abetting this weakening, as I see it, of our moral fabric. We have, by our opportunities for improved recreational facilities, given communities a chance to build more buildings and more facilities.

We have also said that we will not allow you to do this unless you have a five-year operating budget to finance these facilities. Regrettably, too much of that five-year operating budget is based on money they hope to get from bingos. Mr. Speaker, I hope this doesn't come back to haunt us. When we are considering these operating budgets in the future, I hope there will be other ways of raising money. If one just takes an hour and studies the history of gambling, you can see that it all starts very innocently, with the best of intentions in mind, and it all ends up in tragedy for everyone. Thank you. MR.

DIACHUK: I want first to commend the hon. Member for Lethbridge West, particularly because of the sincere way he presented his arguments on the motion. Also his background, his professional life, provides him with the type of knowledge that would really enable him to assess the dangers of these large lotteries a lot better than some of us who don't have that type of background. I think it is a concern and a problem for the organiza­ tions that initially started the small lotteries.

The small raffles were there for a small amount of fund raising, but also for some participation and even some excitement at a bazaar, a chicken dinner, harvest ball, or whatever it could be. But this has now mushroomed. The excitement of a small even­ ing raffle or a small service club raffle has now gone into a big thing, and it has become a mania. It's true. When you look at the budget to publicize some of these large provincial or national lotteries across Canada on television, you know that a lot of dollars have to go into covering the cost of these lotteries.

I think we must pay attention to the resolution as it is worded. I just want to repeat that his resolution was that he wasn't against a short-term lottery for funding a specific project, specific charity. But his resolution did stress limiting the means of generating general revenue for any government. I think that is the point we should really weigh, because you have service organizations, church groups, community leagues that don't have taxing power. Their only way to gain some revenue for their projects they may want to do is through a lottery. That I can agree with and live with.

But when a municipality, a provincial government, or a national government which has taxing power has to resort to raising money through a large lottery, I agree with the mover of the resolution that that is a concern. Very soon — and it might be a good way — we might find the lottery so beneficial that they will do away with income tax. If that is what may come, I would then have to sit down and weigh that versus income tax. If we can really gain enough revenue in this nation through the lotteries and do away with income tax, maybe it might be a move. But I don't think this will ever come.

I'm only concerned at the large amount of dependency on raising what we are starting to accept as a necessary amount of funding for an acceptable program, whether it's the Olympics or the Commonwealth Games — and for the mover of the resolution, it is the Commonwealth Games in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, not just Alberta, Canada. He's not present and I will repeat that to him when he returns to the Assembly. I would really hope that when we approve — whether it is a large sports competition — that we don't have to depend on a lottery to fund it. We must do it in a meaningful way. We must live within the budget.

As was pointed out, where in the 60s the charming mayor of Montreal was raising $34 million, now we're looking at billions of dollars. We could use all kinds of examples. One of my colleagues sent me a note indicating that in Australia lottery money is used to fund education. We all know of the Irish lotteries, which are used for funding hospitals. I really find it difficult to accept that any govern­ ment must turn to lotteries to fund a necessary program it has jurisdiction over. Therefore, I want to say that I would hope we would come to grips with it. I have spoken out against large bingos.

You know, bingo was the beginning of some our regulations controlling the amount of money that will be raised and how much has to be returned to the participants. Very soon we will have to have a program to fund the cure of some of these addicts to bingo. You know, in our society we now have people who are addicted. They must go five nights a week. Now they're glad they're running the bingos even on Sunday mornings and afternoons, because they've become addicted to it. It's no longer just a social evening for them; it can't be when they're playing 30 cards. AN HON. MEMBER: How many? MR. DIACHUK: Thirty cards.

I guess my honorable colleague from Edmonton Ottewell has seen one play with more than 30 cards. It's a mania; it's an addiction. I'm afraid the same thing happens with all these lotteries. There are people who are just waiting for the next salesman or saleswoman to come around to sell them another ticket, still hoping to win that first prize and claim it is their turn, and wouldn't give it back. The social problems we can speak on. The other problems of the community that arise through these large lotteries are a concern to all of us.

But I would really hope we could turn back some of these and regulate a withdrawal, a decline in the large number of lotteries, even on a city level. It's just getting out of hand. I have spoken against the casinos. I think that's another curse we are getting on us. When you get that type of organization entering, I'm always the suspicious person who sees the underworld walking in and sharing revenue that really is intended to go to a good cause.

I hope we in Alberta would start to reverse the trend and the dependency on all these large lotteries and only continue with the small community, church, and organization lotteries that

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1671 are a bit of excitement and some social part to the game of chance, and a bit of raising funds. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. DR. McCRIMMON: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words on this timely topic: that the Legislative Assembly of Alberta urge the government to develop a policy relating to province- wide lotteries, limiting them to single lotteries or short-term series. As I read this resolution, I think the mover's purpose is to cut down on the prolifera­ tion of lotteries within the province.

In the past three years there has been a considera­ ble proliferation, not only within the province but across the whole nation. The leader in this of course has been the federal government as far as their national lotteries are concerned. I think it will help if the proliferation can be restricted to a fair and justifi­ able number. I don't intend to discuss in detail whether lotteries should be legal or illegal, allowed or not allowed. However, when they were illegal, the Irish Sweeps­ takes thrived in this country.

There's no question that over the past 30 years tens of millions of dollars have flowed from this country to Ireland. The fact that perhaps it did help build up their hospital system, and so on, is no reason why the pattern should have been allowed or perhaps that more stringent methods to suppress it shouldn't have been taken. But there is one point: although they were illegal over those 30 years, the Irish Sweepstakes did continue and people did participate in a fairly major way.

This in itself is a pretty strong indication that a large percentage of people want to buy lottery tickets, want to participate in this type of gambling procedure whether the government likes it or whether the government doesn't like it — and it does seem a very difficult system to stop. If this type of lottery, even though it's illegal, can take tens of millions of dollars from this nation, and if the people of this country are going to participate in lotteries whether it's legal or illegal, we might as well have the proceeds flow within our own borders.

Therefore, whether it's a national lottery, a provincial lottery, or a lottery on a smaller basis, as long as these are kept under strict and rigid control I see no great difference from when it was illegal and the money flowed out of the country.

Section 190 of the Criminal Code allocates lotteries in five categories. Number one basically comes under the Government of Canada. Under this

section is Loto Canada. This is a branch-out from the Olympic Lottery which, I believe, was a scheme devised by Mayor Drapeau to finance the Olympic Games. Whether or not it should have been allowed in the first place is questionable. But in the light of the staggering costs of the games, and the fact that Quebec probably couldn't pay it for themselves, although they had committed themselves to do so, it is questionable whether it should have been allowed to proliferate across the whole nation to participate in this payment.

As I understand it now, Loto Canada is more or less a continuation of the Olympic Lottery. Unless my figures are wrong, I believe that roughly 80 per cent of the proceeds of Loto Canada goes to pay for the debts left over from the Olympic Games, the balance distributed to the provinces that participate in the Loto Canada system. The second category is provincial lotteries, either single province or in conjunction with other prov­ inces. Of course the Western Canada Lottery comes under this category.

This is a little closer to home and, as far as I am concerned, a much more reasonable type of lottery for those of us residing in western Canada. We are not going to get any major benefit from a Loto Canada venture. Three other categories come under the lottery system. Number three is charitable or religious organizations. Of course, this is where you get your Lions Club, Kinsmen Club, Moose bingos — all of these things — and of course your church-operated bingos and lotteries.

Number four is the agricultural fair/exhibition type of lottery, and number five is a lottery scheme in a place of public amusement under license of the Lieutenant-Governor. I believe the last three points are areas where abuse or too extensive proliferation could be harmful. In these three areas it is pretty hard to actually control the number of lotteries, the types of lotteries, the prizes, the payment of prizes, the proper turnover to the provincial government, and keep it in line.

I know that a good many of them, most of them in fact, are well meaning as far as the charitable organiza­ tions are concerned, particularly in my own town of Ponoka. For the last three summers the Kinsmen Club has operated a Chuckwagon Sweepstakes, over which it has raised in the area of $100,000, which is a considerable portion of our new swimming pool. So there is no question that many of these lotteries are for a good purpose.

However, a considerable number of not well- organized or well-promoted lotteries have been estab­ lished which weren't a financial success, and they ended up not having financial resources to pay out the commitments they had made for which the people had put in their money. I think pretty rigid control has to be held on these. If not, we will soon be at the stage where they are selling tickets at every street corner and having draws every day — this type of thing — which they do in some of the countries south of us and in Europe.

Since inception in Alberta, there has been a considerable amount of what you could call advertis­ ing, propaganda, whatever you want. The public now is much more aware of the lottery system and much more exposed to it, and I think the average flow of dollars between now when it is legalized and before it was legalized is probably in the ratio of 20:1 or 10:1. Another point is that legalizing lotteries, it appears to me, may be just the first step towards legalizing gambling across the board.

If you follow the pattern of a lot of the states in the United States, this could be and has been the way that some of them have patterned themselves. There are always arguments for and against. I believe in this case the arguments against do tend to outweigh the arguments for. Although much good can come from the funds derived from a lottery, much harm can be done to the people who participate in the purchase of tickets, particularly in areas where you have compulsive gamblers and those who extend themselves beyond their financial means to partici­ pate.

I think it was brought out by a previous speaker that for those on low incomes who see no way of getting wealth or accumulating any vast amount of

1672 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 money, this is one chance they feel they have. Of course, it is a false notion that brings them to this conclusion. So with those few words, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see no further proliferation of lotteries, a firm clamp down on existing lotteries, and definite rigid controls so that there are no further steps towards the legalization of gambling in this province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure this afternoon to briefly participate in this debate. At the outset I would like to establish my position. Mr.

Speaker, basically I am of the view that lotteries are not a very careful expenditure of funds on the part of the individual who buys lottery tickets. However, I am a bit of a pragmatist in that regard — perhaps not as much as the hon. Member for Ponoka, but even so I recognize that we will have some forms of drawing by lot, taking one's chances, otherwise known as gambling. However, Mr. Speaker, I would like to go on record as being opposed to lotteries which are of a provincial scale or a national scale.

I would like to go on record as being opposed to lotteries which are run via a newspaper, or for that matter by a magazine, by television, or by radio. Mr. Speaker, one of the redeeming features of lotteries in the form of bingo is that there is some social interaction. At least that provides some satis­ faction to people, perhaps much more satisfaction than they realize when they go for their evenings of bingo, which does not exist in the purchase of a Wintario ticket, a win Alberta ticket, or whatever. Mr.

Speaker, when I checked the meaning of "lottery" in the dictionary, I found that it means the drawing of lots among persons or buying a chance; an event whose outcome is determined solely by chance. Mr. Speaker, it is very hard to distinguish between the endeavors some of us find ourselves engaged in sometimes, which we think have no relation to a lottery, and are in fact a lottery. But I think the distinction is that the odds on a purchase of a lottery ticket may be a million to one, perhaps on a neighborhood scale one in 500 or one in a 1,000,

whereas in most lines of endeavor businessmen look at probabilities in the order of an 80 per cent chance of success. So we are looking at quite different degrees of probability of success. Mr. Speaker, that brings me to the point of whether lotteries are good or evil, whether they are acceptable to me with my sense of values. I don't know whether it is my Scottish blood or just my particular personal sense of values, but I frankly am not very enthused about lotteries of any kind, neigh­ borhood or otherwise. Mr. Speaker, at the same time I recognize that many other persons may not share the sense of values I do.

That leads me to wonder why. As other speakers were addressing themselves to the topic I wondered why most of the benefits, most of the legislation we have, restrict the proceeds of lotteries to charitable or good works. And it is pretty easy to analyse that and discover why. Hon. members who have sat in the position we sit in today found that the only way, I think, Mr. Speaker, that they could assuage their consciences by the permission of legalized lottery was to direct the evilly intended money to good work.

So we made it right by directing that all the funds of a function which society normally regarded as evil shall go to the public good. That makes the purpose of gambling acceptable in that respect. Mr. Speaker, mention has been made of compul­ sive gambling and the difficulties individuals can find themselves in. I stated earlier that the only kind of lottery I would find in any way acceptable is on a neighborhood scale where people actually participate directly in social interaction, such as bingos. Mr.

Speaker, I just want to emphasize that, as I stated earlier, I think one of the functions of those events is the social interaction that occurs. I further believe that most individuals, if questioned, wouldn't realize that at first glance. But social interaction is impor­ tant, and for some people with limited opportunities this may be a better form of interaction than interact­ ing in the nearest public lounge, which they might otherwise seek out. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned I was opposed to radio, newspaper, and television forms of gambling, gambl­ ing or lotteries on that scale.

I realize that certain organizations presently engage in a limited amount of that activity. One of my reasons, apart from the one I have just mentioned about social interaction, for opposing lotteries on that scale is that I think the possibility of parties with a criminal intention becom­ ing interested is much greater when the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is much greater. Perhaps it's also easier to do and more worth while — if you can put that in terms of the context of criminal activity — undertaking the risk, or the candle is worth the risk, perhaps, if there are millions of dollars at stake.

There are two sides to the argument that it's easier to police that kind of activity. I'm not sure it's as easy to police that kind as it is to make sure that what goes on in a community setting is acceptable. Mr. Speaker, I guess if I started to discourse on my religious and moral perceptions of this subject, this topic would take me some distance into the after­ noon. It isn't my intention, having stated that I don't favor lotteries, to pursue that, because I would dearly love to give the hon.

Member for Clover Bar — who hasn't exercised the opportunity this afternoon to state his point of view, and therefore we miss the very important point of view of the largest opposition party in the House — the opportunity to express himself if he cares to do that, and perhaps to reflect for us the values and perceptions of the Social Credit Party on this very important topic. Certainly it's a topic which is a major concern to our society, Mr. Speaker, and one that I think all parties assembled here in the House ought to have the opportunity to express themselves on publicly. Mr.

Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to make a few brief comments on the resolution introduced by the hon. Member for Lethbridge West. There have been some excellent comments, and I have enjoyed listening to them. I'd agree with the contention of many of the previous speakers that the national nature of lotteries and the provincial lotteries are the kinds of activities that should be discouraged.

Bringing it back to a local situation in my own constituency, bingos and small minor raffles are very important to the community in providing funds for minor sports, club activities, and other useful types of

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1673 community activities. I wonder in my own mind what would happen in my home town of High Prairie if the community groups were unable to conduct bingos and local lotteries. I agree that when the expenditures on lotteries reach the level indicated by the Member for Leth­ bridge West — that is, exceed $200 million more than that invested in stocks — it is something govern­ ments should really address themselves to, both federally and provincially.

Another useful suggestion would be perhaps to recommend that it be illegal to advertise any form of gambling in any way in the electronic or the print media. In view of the time, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. member adjourn the debate? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 1. Moved by Mr. Clark:

Be it resolved that a committee be appointed to be called the Special Program Review Committee consist­ ing of three MLAs to be nominated by the Government House Leader, and one by the Leader of the Official Opposition; such MLAs to further appoint such other representatives of the public as they deem advisable up to seven in number, with the purpose of enquiring into and advising the House on ways and means of restrain­ ing the cost of government by examining: (1) the continued usefulness of existing programs; (2) alternative lower cost means of accomplishing existing program objectives; (3) such other matters as the the Committee deems appropriate to further its purpose; and that the Committee shall submit to the Provincial Treasurer a report by October 1 of each year containing recommendations pursuant to its deliberations during the 12 months ending the period August 1, and may also submit interim reports at any time.

The Provincial Treasurer shall table any such report at the earliest opportunity in the Legislative Assembly. [Adjourned debate: Mr. R. Speaker] MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, was it required to stop debating the original motion at this time? MR. SPEAKER: Under the temporary version of Standing Order 8, the debate we have just had is limited to one hour. That hour has elapsed. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of procedure — and I'm not sure it's my place to make the suggestion — inasmuch as the hon. member who adjourned debate on this motion is not here today, I would ask if it might be acceptable to the House that this motion retain its position on the Order Paper and that we proceed to the next one. MR. SPEAKER: Is the request by the hon. Member for Edmonton Jasper Place acceptable to the Assembly? MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, speaking on the point of order, there are a lot of resolutions on the Order Paper, some of which have not even been discussed yet.

If we are going to do that — this motion was already designated — I wonder when the other resolutions are ever going to be discussed. MR. SPEAKER: The proposal by the hon. Member for Edmonton Jasper Place, of course, may not be given effect unless there is unanimous consent. May I ask then, is there unanimous consent to the proposal or motion by the hon. Member for Edmonton Jasper Place? Would all those in favor of the motion please say aye. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: Those opposed, please say no. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR. SPEAKER: There is not unanimous consent.

We must therefore move on to Motion No. 2. 2. Dr. Walker proposed the following motion to the Assembly:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly ask the Government of Alberta to introduce legislation to remove chiropractic services from The Alberta Health Care Insurance Act, to provide that insurance coverage of chiropractic services be relegated to a voluntary, self-supporting

section of the commission or other appropriate insurance agency, to remove chiropractic services from the scope of benefits under The Workers' Compensation Act, and to establish a committee to study and report to the Legislature on the status of chiropractors in the overall health care of Albertans in general. DR. WALKER: Mr. Speaker, unlike all my fellow col­ leagues who have been speaking, I'm a rambler and I'm a gambler and I'm a long way from home. So I'll just talk to you about a little chiropractic today. I would like to start off by quoting a statement the hon.

Premier made at the convention in Calgary on April 3, 1976: I propose the following goals and objectives for the Government of Alberta and for Albertans: to continue to provide the highest quality education, health care and overall public service in Canada, with the emphasis on quality not quantity. If we are to have the highest quality of health care, there can be only one standard and that is the highest. Can we tolerate a substandard, unproven technique of health care in a health conscious province? Let me quote to you the conclusion of the 1972 Wisconsin Governor's Health Planning and Policy Task Force.

I would like to table it with the Legisla­ ture along with Health, Education, and Welfare, and a lot of other factual information concerning chiropract­ ic. It reads: It is the responsibility of concerned and in­

1674 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 formed leaders in both government and science to protect less sophisticated citizens against inef­ fective or dangerous health practices. At the point in history when the right of all members of society to quality health care has finally been recognized, when medicine is beginning to scru­ tinize itself for optimum quality of care through both peer and lay review, it is anachronistic to permit an academically unrecognized, scientific­ ally unproven and medically uncontrolled method of health care to infringe on that right and impair that optimum quality of care.

That is a government commission. What is chiropractic? The dictionary describes it as "the treatment of diseases by manipulating the spine". The system of healing known as chiropractic was devised in 1895 by a Toronto-born Iowa grocer, Daniel David Palmer, who described himself as a magnetic healer. By his own account, his discovery came about in the following way: I desired to know why one person was ill, and his associate, eating at the same table, working in the same shop, at the same bench, was not. Why? . . . This question had worried thousands for centuries and was answered in September in 1895.

Harvey Lillard . . . had been so deaf for 17 years that he could not hear the racket of the wagon on the street . . . But I gather he heard Mr. Palmer. I made enquiry as to the cause of his deafness and was informed that when he was exerting himself in a cramped, stooping position, he felt something give way in his back and immediately became deaf. An examination showed a vertebra racked from its normal position. I reasoned that if that vertebra was replaced, the man's hearing would be restored . . . I racked it into position by using the spinous process as a lever and soon the man could hear as before . . .

He says: I am the originator, the fountain head of the essential principle that disease is the result of too much or not enough functionating [sic]. I created the art of adjusting vertebrae, using the spinous and transverse processes as levers, and named the mental act of accumulating knowledge, the cumulative function, corresponding to the physi­ cal vegetative function — growth of intellectual and physical — together with the science, art and philosophy — Chiropractic . . . It was I who combined the science and art and developed the principles thereof. I have answered the time- worn question — What is Life?

The concept of vertebral subluxation is central to chiropractic theory. Simply defined, subluxation is an incomplete or partial dislocation and fixation. Chiro­ practors maintain that vertebral subluxations cause a narrowing of the openings through which the spinal nerves must pass and that they cause irritation to the nerves. They contend that vertebral subluxation is the most significant causal factor in disease because it interferes with normal nerve function, and that cures can be accomplished for practically any human illness by manual manipulation of the spine to bring it into alignment.

The modern chiropractors' definition, as stated by the Canadian Chiropractic Association: The science of chiropractic deals with the rela­ tionship between the articulations of the human body, especially the vertebral column and the nervous system and the role of these relation­ ships in the restoration and maintenance of health. The philosophy of chiropractic is based upon the premise that disease or abnormal function is frequently caused by interference with nerve transmission and expression due to deviation from their normal position of the bony segments of the body, especially the vertebra column.

The practise of chiropractic consists in the location and correction of misalignments causing any interference with normal nerve transmission and expression, for the restoration and main­ tenance of health without the use of drugs or surgery. So the definition hasn't changed in 80-odd years. What is the scope of chiropractors in Canada? According to the Hall Royal Commission on Health Services, which I have also tabled with you, Mr.

Speaker: All the provincial Acts make it illegal for chiro­ practors to prescribe or administer drugs, to use or prescribe the use of an anaesthetic, to practise surgery or midwifery, to practise medicine, and, in some provinces, (including Alberta), the chiro­ practors may not treat communicable diseases.

Yet in the curriculum of the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College in Toronto, the only institution offering a training program in chiropractic in Canada, in phase two of their curriculum is the teaching of: gynaecology, obstetrics, pediatrics, roentgenology — in other words, X-ray — geriatrics, dermatology, and syphilology, which I presume is the treatment of syphilis, and that's specifically disallowed in the Alberta act. This is all taught by none other than those with chiropractic degrees, and all considerably outside the scope of chiropractic.

In their briefs to the Alberta government, they give the impression of considerable medical training well beyond the immediate area of postural disabilities and disfunction which the general public believes them to treat. In a survey of chiropractors undertaken by the Hall commission in 1964: 45% indicated that they consider themselves to be specialists, although there is no body empow­ ered to grant [them] specialist status. Of this group, the largest proportion claim to be musculo-skeletal specialists.

Among the other specialties mentioned, neurological, manipulative therapy, gastro-intestinal disorders, cardiovascu­ lar conditions, general organic work, improved radionics and colonic therapy. This is a list of all the different diseases they treat. Regarding X-rays, the same report states: This Commission is aware that with adequate safeguards and proper use, radiography is an invaluable diagnostic procedure, but over-use or its use by those without the proper qualifications is useless as well as dangerous.

The Faculty of Medicine at McGill University in its presentation before the royal commission on chiro­ practic in the province of Quebec in 1965 stated: The theory which underlies chiropractic is false, and no consistently successful practice can be

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1675 expected from false theory. In the same Quebec royal commission: In the field of Education . . . originally there were no admission [standards at all] other than the ability to pay for the course. Nowadays chiro­ practic colleges offer a four-year course but their admission requirements have continued to remain low, their facilities offer limited common­ ly recognized academic credentials, their equip­ ment and facilities are meagre and their students have little opportunity either for research or for clinical work.

There are 12 schools in the United States, accord­ ing to the Health, Education and Welfare report on chiropractic. There is also one in Canada. None is accredited by any recognized academic institution in the world or by any recognized academic accrediting bodies. That statement, Mr. Speaker, is not arguable. The most important provision in the licensing laws of most states in the United States is that aspiring chiropractors must pass a series of basic science examinations in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, dia­ gnosis, hygiene, pathology, and public health.

The same requirement is made of aspiring medical doc­ tors, but in most states the chiropractic basic science exam is set by chiropractors themselves, and they also lack sufficient training to start with. The American Medical Association, in its brief to this same committee said: Most of the faculties of Chiropractic colleges are listed as holding the degree of . Doctor of Chiropractic. This is not an accredited or recognized academic degree and the United States office of education classifies the degree of . . . Chiropractic as "counterfeit".

In some cases the faculty members listed degrees which had no status in the academic community. In some instances no record could be found that the college ever existed. In others the colleges existed, but [there was] no record that the faculty member ever went there. In some instances the person had attended but never graduated. In 1966 in Palmer College in Davenport, Iowa, the dean of the faculty, the chairman of the X-ray department, the director of education, and the profes­ sor of anatomy, all holding the rank of full professor, did not list a single recognized academic degree amongst them, not even a BA.

The 1972 Wisconsin report of the chiropractic study committee states: Many shortcomings in chiropractic education have been consistently noted in the various objective studies heretofore cited. The observa­ tions made at Palmer College are consistent with these references, to wit: 1. The faculty-student ratio is too low for effec­ tive [training]. At Palmer there are 27 faculty members and five assistant instructors for ap­ proximately 1,300 students . . . And we worry about a ratio of 1:20. Seven of those listed as full faculty members also have administrative responsibilities.

In fact, that seven hold all of the administrative offices with the exception of President, Secretary, and Direc­ tor of Public Relations. Many of the faculty also maintain active private practices. 2. Teaching in the basic sciences is done by persons who themselves lack adequate training. Among the 27 persons listed as full faculty members at Palmer the highest non-chiropractic academic degree listed is one M.S. . . . And nobody could explain what that was. . . . and one M.A.

Both of these are held by persons who also must function as administra­ tors; the disciplines in which these degrees were awarded were not noted. Many faculty members had only D.C. degrees from Palmer with no other academic credentials. On their library facilities: 3. Library facilities are inadequate: With respect to Palmer College this is a gross understatement. The collection of books is small and obviously not up to date. A check of circulation records indi­ cated that withdrawals for student use were almost non-existent.

The periodical collection is obviously inadequate: The only periodicals which are bound are Newsweek and Scientific American. The subject matter ranges from Reports of the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of Iowa, through Glamour. There are no journals of the basic sciences in evidence and the chiropractic journals are not even bound. This is a legislative study. 4. The quality of instruction has been criticized. 5. There were no research projects under way. The student body apparently does not find the curriculum too demanding as many held full-time jobs. 6.

Requirements for admission to chiropractic colleges are generally regarded as substandard for academic achievement. In their list last year, the requirement for Alberta is Grade 8. 7. Laboratory facilities have been found wanting. 8. The financial structure of Palmer College is [very] obscure. It is all tied up in a family estate. Although sincerity and dedication are readily apparent in many of the faculty and students, the deficiencies are too pervasive to permit an adequate educational experience. The report goes on: The proliferation of licencing legislation has had something of a boomerang effect.

While some measure of regulation has indeed been accom­ plished, the concept of a state authorized "licen­ ce" has cast an aura of legitimacy on the chiro­ practic. Unfortunately, standards, however high or strictly enforced, cannot operate to validate a scientifically invalid theory. Immunization is strongly opposed by the Dean Emeritus of the Chiropractic Institute in New York.

In his book, generally used in colleges, he states: "Diph­ theria anti-toxin and toxoid are both not only worth­ less in practically every case, but also virulent and injurious in all cases." By contrast, "Drugless healers have been highly successful in handling diphtheria without serums." The book also goes on to say that diseases such as gonorrhea and cerebrospinal meningitis "respond readily to non-medical methods." It is interesting that in the Alberta chiropractic act.

Section 19 states: No member of the Association shall [a] prescribe or administer drugs or medi­

1676 ALBERTA HANSARD October 26, 1976 cinal preparations or treat any venereal disease or any communicable disease as defined by The Venereal Diseases Preven­ tion Act or The Public Health Act . . . Apparently there was some doubt about their abilities in the minds of the legislators here in 1966, yet they went ahead and passed the act. In 1964, two years before our act went in, the state of Colorado passed a law prohibiting chiropractors from treating cancer. No such prohibition exists in the Alberta statutes.

A type of proof used by chiropractors is the so- called cure chart used as advertising and as a standard tool kit by the chiropractic lobbies. I have one here. This is the sheet they put out, and I have filed it with the Speaker. They bring these to legisla­ tures to secure legislation favorable to themselves. It needs very little comment on my part, for it should be obvious to any member of the Legislature that manipulation of a spine can in no way cure anemia, asthma, diabetes, liver disorders, sinusitis, ulcers or heart disease. I'm rather bemused sometimes to see the hon.

Leader of the Opposition wearing his little copper band around his wrist, hoping it would cure his aching joints. And I see my colleague beside me, Mr. Peacock, wears one too. Chiropractors expound their skills as an alternative total health care system. While many of our citizens may be dissatisfied with their medical attendants, other physicians are always near at hand who may well satisfy their needs in a better way. But to move to the totally unproven confidence tricksters of the health delivery system is paramount to the Minister of Transport being dissatisfied with one of his road engineers.

He does not hire the services of a person who does not believe in mathematics or physics as basics in his education; he chooses another person or firm with essentially the same basic training as the ones with whom he was dissatisfied. Scientists have come to legislative hearings, here and in the United States, armed with facts and information, and I've delivered a lot of it today. But chiropractors come armed with votes and lobbies recruited from their friends, allies, and supporters at the community level.

Tolerating a scientific heresy may be all very well, but a government then has a very grave responsibility to label it as such for the benefit of the general public. It is one thing to leave to the individual the right to be a true believer in the unorthodox; it is something else again to leave the general public unclear as to where that unorthodoxy lies. Legalizing chiropractic and making its treatments payable under medicare does precisely this. It badly blurs this all-important distinction. In the province of Alberta in 1973 there were 186 chiropractors; in 1974, 197; in 1975, 214.

Two- thirds of them are trained in the United States, one-third at the Memorial Chiropractic College in Toronto, at which we are supporting students with grants and student loans to the extent of $250,000 a year. In 1975, alberta Health Care paid out $5.6 million to chiropractors, all of which is totally paid by the province and is not on a dollar matching basis with Ottawa, such as medical doctors. For a service unrecognized even by the Government of Canada, we are compulsorily obliged to pay premiums.

Let me read you the objective non-medical opinion of the Royal Commission on Chiropraxy and Osteopa­ thy under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Gerard Lacroix in 1965. On page 150 he states: Confronted with this evidence, we cannot in this case [chiropractic] accept that we are dealing with a specialty rather with what is basically a treatment, that is a treatment by manipulation which the advocators of the system limit to the spinal column or the pelvis. And on page 153 he states: A. Chiropractic: is an accepted reality as a treatment by manipulation; B.

Should be used only after a sound, accurate and differential diagnosis; C. At present this [differential] diagnosis can only be made by a person who has received a far more complete training in this field than that presently given to chiropractors; D. In other respects manipulative treatment once it has been correctly indicated, should only be used and applied by a person not necessarily a doctor, who has been ade­ quately and thoroughly trained for this purpose. The Royal Commission on Health Services, 1964 — Mr.

Justice Hall states on pages 32 and 33 of his report: The medical services benefits should incorporate the following insured services . . . Podiatric and Chiropractic treatment when prescribed by a physician. "Independent Practitioners Under Medicare", a report to Congress, Department of Health, Education and Welfare, Wilbur J. Cohen, Secretary, also tabled with the Legislature — this report was requested by the 90th Congress public law social securities amendments of 1967.

The secretary was directed to make a study relating to the inclusion of services of additional types of licensed practitioners performing health services in independent practice to the United States medicare program. A committee of citizens was appointed by the secretary, and a report pre­ sented to Congress on December 28, 1968.

The Health, Education and Welfare report warned that patronizing chiropractors was undesirable . . . because appropriate treatment could be delayed or prevented entirely; appropriate treat­ ment might be interrupted or stopped completely; the treatment of it could be contra-indicated; or treatments have some risk involved with their administration and inappropriate treatment exposes the patient to this risk unnecessarily. There is a body of scientific knowledge related to health, disease and health care.

Chiropractic practitioners ignore or take exception to much of this knowledge despite the fact that they have not undertaken adequate scientific research. The Health, Education and Welfare report also noted: . . . the inadequacies of chiropractic education, coupled with a theory that de-emphasizes proven course of factors in disease processes, proven methods of treatment, differential diagnosis, make it unlikely that a chiropractor can make an adequate diagnosis and know the appropriate treatment . . . Despite this deficiency in education and rejection of proven scientific: methods in favor of spinal analysis

October 26, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1677 and adjustment, the majority of chiropractors admit that they treat such afflictions as heart disease, blood pressure, common colds, and the rest. Further in this report they say: Freedom to practise medicine is not a right — but rather a privilege granted by legislative act. Medicine — and all other branches of the scien­ tific community — believe that all methods of disease prevention, health maintenance and care should be submitted to careful scrutiny and objective evaluation — the accepted scientific process.

To date, chiropractors [have] failed to demonstrate any scientific validity for its theories. The Governor's Health Planning and Policy Task Force says: It is beyond question that substantial numbers of people believe themselves to have been helped by chiropractic treatment. It is also beyond ques­ tion that if they feel better for whatever reason, they have in some sense been helped. There is, however, a balancing factor that screams to be considered. That, of course, is the potential hazard of treatment that ignores estab­ lished scientific knowledge.

The nature of the hazard is three-fold: Chiropractic treatment . . . delays effective medical care until it is too late; it often aggravates conditions that would otherwise have been readily amenable to proper treatment; and it sometimes produces actual physical damage to patients. Documentation of these dangers has been included in some of the reports contained in the bibliography . . . The Commit­ tee files contain many case studies originating in Wisconsin, which clearly illustrate the hazard when such awful consequences are possible; it should not take many occurrences to establish the magnitude of the risk.

There are untold numbers of people who feel they have been either misused or abandoned by the Medical Profession. And so they may have been. Many of today's busy specialists and physicians have little . . . time [for] non-pathological, but none­ theless uncomfortable. [syndromes] . . . It is of little operational significance to the patient that his condition was in fact, of a self limiting nature, or its etiology was largely emotional.

In this context, the chiropractors serve a useful social function and it might be well for the Medical Profession to examine itself for alternate approaches to fulfilling that role. The report of the Ontario Committee of the Healing Arts in 1966 states: Before chiropractic treatment is commenced, the patient should be required to undergo a differen­ tial diagnosis by a qualified physician to ensure that manipulative therapy is not contra-indicated. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would say that all my arguments have hinged on the proposition that chiro­ practic is scientifically heretical.

If the Government of Alberta has any doubts on this score, it should examine that issue carefully. If the government remains sceptical after careful study of the testimony and conclusions of such expert groups as the Hall commission, the LaCroix commission, the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare, citizens groups such as the Consumer Federation of America, the National Council of Senior Citizens and, believe it or not, the AFL-CIO, it should conduct its own inquiry into this.

One way or another, there is simply no excuse for any responsible government not having a very clear, very substantial . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I have to draw the hon. member's attention to the fact the he has gone over his time limit. DR. WALKER: Can I have two seconds? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. AN HON. MEMBER: Now counting. AN HON. MEMBER: One, two. DR. WALKER: One way or another, there is simply no excuse for any responsible government not having a very clear and very substantial opinion on the scientif­ ic validity of chiropractic theory and practice.

The political question cannot be divorced from the scien­ tific one. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to participate in this debate. There are a few comments that I would like to express, particularly in opposition to the hon. member in his resolution that the government be urged to remove chiropractic services from Alberta Health Care Insurance. Now I think chiropractors in this province and thro