ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31- 32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 109 - 2:00 p.m. , MONDAY, 18 JULY, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second legislature Members , Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANST ETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOW NEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCO TT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW , Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thomps on La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wo od Kil donan Arth ur Emers on La keside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concor dia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St . Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gla dstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Daup hin Turtl e Mountain Burrows Ross mere lnkster Fort Garry Osbor ne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake La c du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NDP NDP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NDP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 18 July, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Peti tions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports By Standing and Special Commi ttees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Healt h. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement. Mr.

Speak er, th ere was a Cabinet mee ti ng just a little while ago and we had th is statemen t pr epared, but it's pr epared mo re as a pr ess statement, and I hate like heck to ta lk abo ut what the Honourable Min ister of Healt h, Mr. Desjardins, did and so on, so it's not written. If th is is accepted ... Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Go ahead. HON. l. DESJARDINS: "Foll owing discussions with healt h officials and a mee ti ng of Cabi net" - I migh t as well read it the way it is - "H ealth Min ister, L.L.

Desjardins has announced that co nditions regarding Western Equine Enceph ali tis do not warr ant th e declara tion of an emergency situation at this tim e, but the situation is being mo nitored clo sely. "The Health Minister emphasized th at although the Culex tarsalis mo squitoes co ntinue to be high, and viral activ ity has been identified in chicken flocks, th ere is not sufficient evidence at th is time to warrant a healt h emergen cy. "Mr.

Desjardins said th at a subcommi ttee of Cabinet composed of th e Min ister of Environment, Government Services and my self has been given a manda te to ta ke any actions which are deemed necessary. "The Heal t h Mi nister emp ha sized, 'We are still considering an aerial spraying program as a last resort,' and restated th a t the City of Winnipeg will be expanding its larviciding progr am to an area 15 miles beyond th e perime ter. "Mr. Desjardins said th at the warning issued to Manito bans last week to take pr otective measures against th e disease is co ntinued.

These measures inclu de" - and I have repeated th is quite ofte n, Mr . Speak er, because I think I want to emphasize th at if th is is done we prob ably wo uldn't need the spraying and th is is certa inly the most impor ta nt th ing to do and every individual should ta ke note of that - "where possible, avoid being outdoors during th e sunset hours when mo squitoes are more active. "Peop le sh ou ld wear long pants and long-sleeved clot hing to minimi ze skin expo sure. Li ght co loured clot hing is less attr active to mosquitoes. The use of insect rep elle nt is strongly recomm ended.

Infants transpo rted in carriages shou ld be protected by netting and the use of well-maintained screens on doors and windows. "Mr . Desj ard ins said th at a pu blic infor ma ti on cam paign is being devel op ed im med iately and a te leph one info rma t io n centre is being esta bli shed throu gh Emergency Measures Organization to answer questions and co ncerns th e pu blic may have. The se services are expected to be in pl ace early this week." Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garr y. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I th ank th e Mi nister for his state ment .

I wo uld say that if the officials of the Dep artmen t of Health have assured the Min ister that th ere is no pub lic healt h emergency or incipi ent pu blic healt h emergency at the pr esent tim e, th en we on th is side have no quarrel wit h or criticism of th is statemen t and th is position that he has just arti culated.

Sir, if th ere is di fference of opinion in the ranks of the Execut ive Council and th e government over the efficacy of using th e one known proven weapo n to protect th e pu blic health and safety and th a t is an aerial spray camp aign against th e vecto r mo squito, th en we wo uld reject th is kind of a position and regard it as highly equivocal and highly unfortu nate. I do not know th at th ere is that difficulty in the ranks of the Execut ive Council, but I mus t say to th e Min ister, Mr.

Speak er, that th ere seems to be current intelligence to th at effect, to the effect that th e government is split on wheth er to engage in aerial spraying or not and certa inly to engage in th e use of the proven insecti cide Baygon. If th at's th e case, Si r, th en th is posit ion is not acceptable. The protection of th e safe ty and healt h of th e pub lic mus t be param ount in th is situation; that mus t come first. When th e Mi nister says that he and his colleagues are still co nsidering an aerial spraying program as a last resort, I have to ask th e question, Si r, why a last resort?

If th ere is clear evidence that th ere is a th reat to pub lic health and safety, an aerial spraying prot ection progr am is not a last resort; it's virtu ally a first resort and I wo uld hope that the government has ordered th e spray aircraf t and has order the insecti cide and is ready to go; and when th ey talk about mo nitoring th e situ ation, I tr ust th ey are mo nitoring on an hourly basis. MR. SPEAKER: Does th e Honourable Mi nister have another statem ent? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Yes, I have.

Whi lst th is is being distr ibuted I hope that I will be asked this question or I can tr eat that st atemen t as a question because th ere were di rect questions to me that I should have th e right to answer - (Interjec tion) - I'll take it as asked if you wish. There is another st atemen t that had been promi sed to th e Ho use, a req uest of the mem bers of th e oppo sit ion. Mr. Speak er, on March 29, 19 83, I advised th e House of recom me ndations that I had endorsed following a 4361

Monday, 18 July, 1983 preliminary investigation in to the events surrounding the death of Mr. Alvin Nystrom whi le being transferred from the Hospita l in Flin Flon to Winnipeg.

A full review of staffing in the nursing depar tment of the hospital wi th special reference to the Intensive Care Unit and Casualty De partment, has now being made by Nursing Standards Offi cers from the Manitoba Heal th Servi ces Co mm is sion and a report, wi th recom mendat ions , has been forw a rded to th e Governing Boar d of the Ho spitaL I understand the Comm issio n is currently awaiti ng a response from the Ho spital follow ing this report.

I would like to poi nt out, contrary to suggestio ns ma de in the media , there wa s no evidence, from the review that wa s ma de, to ind ic ate an y la ck of professionalism by the nursing staff in the ho spital. Staff of the Intens ive Care Unit and Emer gency Department in Flin Flon have a justifia ble pride in the care they provi de, and it is felt they have been very unfairly treated by statements suggesting that they had a lai ssez-fai re at ti tude to the ho spit al 's ca ll for assistance on the night of March 12 th.

One ir .1 por ta nt is sue that ar ose, ha s been the id entification for the need for a form al course on Critical Care Nursing desig ned specific a lly for nurses worki ng in Intensive Care Units in rural and Northern ar eas of the Province. Thi s, Mr. Speak er, is presently bein g ac tively examined by a comm it tee compris ing of the Manitob a Heal th Services Comm ission, the Manitoba Assoc iat ion of Regi stered Nurses, two teac hi ng hospitals and representativ es from all rural hospitals wi th ac tive Intensive Care Units.

I antic ipate a report from this comm ittee later this year ap prising me of the viability of a specific trai ning course for these nurses worki ng in these areas by providing ongoing education programs for these nurses. Mr. Speaker, I've been advised by the Registrar of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba, that they have comple ted a preli minary investigation into the medical practice concerning this case.

However, in view of an imp ending inq uest into this matter by the Chief Medic a l Exam iner for the Provi nce, a full report in this investigation wi ll not be released to me until the public in quest has been held. Thank you, Mr. Speak er. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Speak er, I wi sh to thank the Mi nister for this statement and to assure him that we wi ll be aw aiti ng the results of the public in quest in to this incident wi th a great deal of interest.

Until then, we would simply wa nt to urge the Minister to move wi th all haste in developing the critica l care nursing course that he is talking ab out in the statement delivered to the House this afternoon. I might just say on that poi nt, Sir, that it's my understanding that here at the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg, we have one of the two or three best critic a l care, intensive care nursing cou rses in North Amer ic a. As a matter of fact the course at that hospital is, in my understanding, recognized as a North Amer ican standard for trai ning in Intensive Care Nursing.

One would hope that it would not be a massive quantum leap to mo ve from Intensive Care Nurse Training for urban hospitals to Intensive Care Nurse trai ning for Northern hospita ls, so we would encourage the Minister to move very quickly on that. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motio n . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions may I di rect the attention of honourable members to th e gallery where we have 50 fore ign excha nge students from Mexi co, Fi nland and Germ a ny, and 30 Canad ia n students.

They ar e hosted by the Winnipeg Rotary Club and they ar e under the direction of Mrs. Shewchuk. On behalf of all of the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Strike - Safeway Stores MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urab le Lead er of the Op positi on. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, I have a question for the First Mi nister. Today there have been public statements ma de by Mr.

Bernard Christophe, the Presid ent of the United Food and Comm ercia l Workers Union, announcing that his union wi ll be striking the Safewa y Comp any starti ng next week and then ad di ng gratuitously that "The pu blic," said he, "should not patronize Safeway stores when they are on strike in order to avoid any disorder in crossing the picket lines;" or indeed, "The possibility," said he, Mr. Speaker, "of physical harm coming to the public as a result of private ci tizens crossing the picket li nes. " My question to the First Minister, Mr.

Speaker, is this, wi ll he instruct the Attorney-General and the Minister of La bour to advise this union president, and any other union presid ents that need the advice in this provice, that the law of Canada and the law of Manitoba wi ll be upheld; and that citizens, who wi sh to gain entrance or to leave premises whether they are struck or not struck, wi ll do so wi thout harassment or wi thout threat or intimidat ion of physical violence to their person? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le First Mi nister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, I think it goes wi thout saying, that in fact in 19 76 I can recall a circumstance while I was Attorney-General in which it had to be assured that people had right of ac cess and right of departure wi thout physical interference and I don't thi nk that the Attorney-General, indeed, has to issue any in structio ns insofar as any police force is concerned, to assure that there be the right of ac cess, the right of departure wi thout interference. !ION. S. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speak er, I'm sure that we Nelcome that kind of reassurance from the First Minister of what his intention would be, but in view of the fact that this union lead er was hear d to ma ke these forms of threat of an intimidat ion nature to the people of Manitoba this morning, would he not agree that it would be in the public interest that this particular union leader be brought in or be told that that kind of petty despotism wi ll not be tolerated in this province even though a government of his stripe, the NOP stripe, is in office? 4362

Monday, 18 July, 1983 I know the First Min ister would be happy to advise him persona lly of that because I take reassurance from the First Minister's statement that he would not permit this kind of petty despotism to be rampant in Manitoba. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, I am certain that no one need be called in in order to receive clear advice insofar as the law and the right of ac cess, the right of departure that is, indeed, a very clear law.

It was applied in 19 76 while I wa s the Attorney-General pertai ning to another labour-management dispute and I'm certa in that the same ap plication of the law would take place in 19 83. Mosquitoes MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urab le Member for Fort Garr y. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speak er, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Heal th and I would ask him whether he ca n confirm that he is encountering opposition to a possible aerial spraying program to comb at western equine encephali tis in Manitob a from mem bers of his Ex ecutive Co uncil and ca ucus col leag ues and, in pa rticul ar , the Min ister of the Environment? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with this question at all. I might say, yes, in caucus there are some that question the advisab ility of spraying.

In Cabi net, the motion that wa s made wa s passed unan imo usly tod ay , the motion in Cabine t - (Interjection) - in Cabinet, definitely - this one wa s anyway. You would know. You've had experience in Cabi net and I don't know . . . A MEMBER: Not in that kind of Cabinet. HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, thank God. SOME HONO URABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I don't know if they could agree that the Member for Fort Garry would like an answer. Could you agree?

Maybe I can sit down and you can have a meeting and vote on that and, if so, would you let me answer it? - (Interjection) - Well, we could do that over a glass of beer tonight. Right now I'm not here to talk ab out that but to try to answer the question. - (Interjection) - You will let me answer it? Now I forgot the question. Mr. Speak er, at no time did I say we were not spraying. I said that, as of now, the situation is not an emergenc y. At no time in Manitob a wa s there any spraying before the vi rus in the mosqu itoes wa s identified.

We ar e now - and I'll let the Min ister of Government Services go into deta il - in a state of al ert. We're getting the informati on; we'll know exactly when we can get a plane if we decide to spray - (Interjecti on) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I thought this wa s a serious enough problem that they would wa nt to hear the information and I'm trying to give it to them, Mr. Speak er. The situation is that we will know exactly . . . I think that now it will be a question within 72 hou rs; we can have the proper plane and the chemic al if we go ah ead.

We're going ah ead with the information package to the public and that's very impor tant and al so the answering service we're setting up through EMO and, as I say, the Minister can explain more what EMO is doing; there's the comm ittee meeting and this is being monit ored very cl osely. It could be that the conditions and the situation change fairly fast. I wa nt to ma ke that clear, that as far as the survei llance comm ittee, we do not get the resolution of that, wa s not that we move immedi ately, that we inform the public, that we give them the steps to take immedi ate ly.

We are asking them to meet daily on that and it could be that the situation will change very fast. But as we said previ ously, if it comes to that and if we must go ah ead with the spraying, the members of the Cabi net unanimously will ap prove that decision. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of statements made late last week to the effect that the level of risk, the danger, wa s as high or higher than wa s the danger and the level of risk when the government of which I wa s a mem ber, began spraying in 19 81, and in view of the current intelli gence to the effect that the level of risk now is higher than it wa s then, can the Minister identify that level of risk for us? Can he confirm that the risk of western equine encephalitis, in terms of a public health emerge ncy in Manitoba is higher today than it wa s when the emergency was declared in 19 81? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speak er, I don't think that I could confirm that the element of risk is worse. If my honourab le friend remembers well, he did not order a state of emergency until well af ter the information that horses had been conta min ated. This has not been the case. It is true that the offending mosquitoes are in greater numb er and this is why we're mo nitoring that very closely and there's other information that we are seeking that we should have fairly soon. As I say, it could change fairly fast, but as of this time, this is the situation. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speak er, in view of the fact that the reports and monitoring that have been done up to this point in time, tend to indicate a level of risk higher today than was the case in 19 81 when the emergency wa s declared.

Can the Minister confirm to this House that he has a plan, and his colleagues have a plan calling for aerial spraying to go into effect im mediately with the necessary equipment and materi a l on hand, and that they intend to pursue that course in the interests of public health and safety notwithstanding the criticisms that will come from various elements of the commu nity, who will be opposed to that particular action for a multitude of reasons; notwithstanding that they intend to proceed and can proceed immedi ately once they're advi sed by 4363

Monday, 18 July, 1983 their offic ials that a public heal th emer gency exists? Can the Minister confirm that? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I want to make sure that I understand the question correctly . The member is saying that when a state of emergency is called, could we proceed very fast. Yes, if need be. This is being - not discussed - but the ar rangement is now, it might be that we will even have a plane on standby, but there is certain inform ation that we were asking that we should have fairly soon, then we'll make a decision.

When that decision is ma de there will be good co-op eration from everybody, we'll be going ah ead. As I say we're in a state of al ert and all these things ar e ready. It is one of the al ternatives. It is not the only thing. Now I did not say that there's more risk in certain weather. Th ere's more mosquitoes, but no horses or no hum an beings have bebaffected, and all the other times when they were spraying, that it was done only after there had been horses and hum an beings in al l cases, affected. This is not the case at this time.

As I say it could change fairly fast, but right now the delay is not being caused by that because we're getting everything ready in case we go in that dir ection, to get the proper chemic al and the proper plane and to get everything in motio n. That is being done now without delay. MR. L. SHERMAN: A final suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Mi ni ster ad vi se the Ho use whether th e commit tee monitoring the situation and advising him is the same comm ittee, that it consists of the same personnel and the same expertise that advised the government in the summer of 19 81? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't check every day to see if the same people advi sed us in '72, '73 and '75. I would imagine that most of them are the same. There is that surveillance comm ittee, and I can say very very clear ly, that the recom me ndation from this com mittee wa s that the Minister of Heal th be informed im mediately because if you remember not long ago they said things looked good, that there wouldn't be any problem, but the weather changed so fast that things are completely di fferent.

They stated that the public should be informed as soon as possible, and that the most impor tant thing would be for the public to take precau tions. Even the people that have al wa ys been in favour of spraying tell me that if the public would take care of thems elves and heed the recomme ndation, the advi ce, then there wouldn't be any necessity to spray. We know that not all people will take that care, but we can't emphasize too much the fact that this is very i:np ortant.

Now the thing is that the commit tee, up to this point, has only ma de that recom men dation; that I be informed; that we inform the public . In fact, we went further than that and we've got everything in a state of al ert that we could move very very fast. As I say, things are being monitored, not by the week or the day even, but by the hour, and things could change very fast. Dominion Store Employees MR. SPEAKER: The HC1nour ab le Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speak er, my question is to the Minister of La bour, and it is this: What actio n is she and the governm ent taking in order to prevent the closing of four Do minio n Stores and its Di stributio n Centre and to guarantee that some 200 jo bs will not be lost? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Lab our. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr . Sp ea ker, the numb er of emplo yees me ntioned by the honourab le member is the highest I have hear d so far, al though I have heard several dif ferent numb ers of employ ees. We have no notificatio n that I am aw are of, of this closing.

It is my assumptio n that Do minio n Stores is planning to pay those empl oyees the proper am ount of mon ey, since they did not notify us, and there certainly seems to be well over 10 0 empl oyees that will be affected . I, of course, am not in any way pleased that this situation is taking place. It seems to be a trend in this particular business. The stores that are closing, if the member would check them out, are all withi n a few blocks of a Safewa y store.

I don't know whether that means anything, but it seems that the business either is not there to suppor+ both stores, or there has been a determi nation made to rationalize the existence of these various groups. I think that it does bear some looking into and will be ap proachi ng my colleagues with the problem shortly. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speak er, in the fall of 19 81, the New Demo cratic Party said, in spite of the gains ma de by working people, many Manitobans still live under the threat posed by plant shutdowns.

The present Premier of the province promised to turn the economy around and to build a great future. In view of the promise, Mr. Speaker, that Manitoba New De m ocrats would provide security from layoffs, would the Minister of La bour indicate what action is going to be taken to prevent the loss of another large am ount of jobs - 200 job s in this case - that has occurred under the NOP? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr.

Spea ker, if the people who run Do minio n Stores or any of these other places that are closing down wish to share with us some of the inform atio n which they keep to themselves, I'm sure that we could assist to keep stores open or we could assist to find alt ernative solutions to the problem. (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M.B. DOLIN: It would be premature for me to give an answer as to what we are doing on this particular sit11ation before I discuss it with my colleagues. 'lllR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Spea ker, would the Minister of Labour consider withdr awing the payroll tax, reducing the sales tax, deferring the increase in Manitoba Hydro rates, deferri ng the increase in assesments by the Workers Com pensation Boar d from 9 to 27 percent, or any of the other im positions which this government has put upon the cost of doing business on Manitoba? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Certainly, Mr. Speak er, it is not my prerogative to do any of the things suggested by the 4364

Monday, 18 July, 1983 member opposite, and I to this date, know of no company that has left this province or closed its door s because of the Health and Education Levy. I al so know that I have received through people that I hav e ta lked to in the Cham bers of Co mm er ce, complime nts on the Workers Compensation situation as it exists now, the changes that have been ma de and I do not believe that they are the slightest bit unhappy with it. In fact, I believe quite the opposite.

So I would suggest that it is not any of these reasons that the opposition would most shortsightedly like to blame, but the fact that emplo yers across this country, and in fact ac ross most of the Western civilization, ar e rational izing their existence.

It's a technological change, it's a difference in society that we ar e talking ab out. - (Interjection) - A member opposite refers to Swifts and it's exactly that, the rationalization of a plant without consul tation with the gove rnment - whate ver th at government is - without suggestions for al ternatives, but decisions taken in isolation which do not help anyone in this province and certa inly do not help the workers involved. A MEMBER: That's right. Wayside Parks - Mafeking Community MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speak er, last week the Honourab le Member for Swan River asked me some questions in respect to the Wayside Park at Mafek ing and I am pleased to provi de the House with further inform ation that we have now heard form al ly from the commu nity ind icat ing its int erest in ma intain ing responsibili ty for the site and, accordi ngly, we have provided two new picnic tables to the park, two steel fireplaces (Interjection) - and for the edific ation for the honourable members who sound like they need to use them, we now have two pit privies that ar e operational. Highway Construction MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for La keside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speak er, I di rect a question to the Honourab le Minister of Hi ghways and Transportation. Mr. Speak er, can the Minister confirm - bear ing in mind that we are well aware of the very substantial reduction in his Highways Program this year - can the Minister confirm that he has, or can today or within the next few days, let out the tenders for upwar ds to $8 millio n worth of work very readi ly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hi ghways. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speak er, if the Member for La keside is asking whether the depa rtment has the capacity to put out ad ditional work, I would have to say yes to that question. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I dir ect my question to the Chai rman of the Jobs Fund or the First Minister. Mr. Speak er, I like most other Manitobans have been exposed to that final line in the thousands of doll ars worth of advertising that advertises the Jobs Fund, that jobs don't just happen, they are created.

I ask the First Minister, Chai rma n of the Jobs Fund, will he not conside r, hav ing just hea rd from his Min ister of Tra nsportation that the Mi nistry of Highw ay s and Transportation could in effect, within a very few days, provi de at least some $8 mil lion worth of construction for the heavy construction industry, would the First Min ister not take that as an urgent priority and ma ke that happen so that ma ny hundreds, indeed, if not thous ands of construction worker s could find emplo yment for the rem ai nder of the summ er? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, undoub tedly we will be looking at various areas by which we can ascertain whether or not we can assist the heavy construction industry. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speake r, there is some urgency to this matter.

Firstly, many of these people that are emplo yed in the construction industry ar e in jeopardy of not being ab le to get in their qualifying weeks of work, so that in an industry that has alr eady tradi tionally been beset with seasonal work, that they can at least qualif y for Unemplo yment Insurance benefits, will the Min ister not today regroup his Cabinet and give the Min ister of Highways the necessary author ity to expend these doll ar s to put people, Manitobans, back to work? HON. H. PAWL EY: Mr .

Spe ak er, the honour ab le member asked a second question which is very similar to the first question that he asked and my answer therefore is the same as the first question's response. MR. H. ENNS: I'll ma ke a deal with the First Minister, Mr. Speaker. Many of us in the opposition have called that Jo bs Fund a "fr aud " fund. I person ally - (Interject ion) - I'll stop calling it a "fraud" fund if you let us start building some roads in this province. I'll stop calling it a "fraud" fund, I can't speak for the rest of them. But the Mi nister has the capacity to provide - (Interjection) - MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. If the honourab le member has a question, will he please pose it? The Honourab le Member for La keside. MR. H. ENNS: My question is to the Chairman of the Manitob a Jobs Fund. Mr. Speak er, I believe he has been made aware of the fact that upwards to 50 percent of the heavy construction workers in Manitoba are out of work as well as their equipment. There is an urgency with respect to workers qualifying for unemp loyment insurance. The Mini ster of Highways has the jobs on his desk.

My question to the Chairman of the Jobs Fund is, will he not reconvene the commit tee that he heads as Chai rma n of the Jobs Fund and start those ma chines and those men working today? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Spea ker, I find it rather strange that the honourable member refers to a fund as having 4365

Monday, 18 July, 1983 been the "fraud" fund when his colle agues stood up and supported, one by one unanimously but one week ago, the passage of that legislation, third re ading in this House. MR. H. ENNS: A final question to the Chai rma n of the Jobs Fund. Although we expressed some skeptism as to the actual jobs created, I ask the Minister whether he wi ll not now dem onstrate some integrity wi th respect to the Jobs Fund, and create these jobs - that's my que stion to the Minister - and he can do it today. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, I know that the honourab le member is gr andstanding for reasons that are quite appar ent to most of us in this Cham ber at the present time. Mr. Speaker, the facts are that Ma nitoba ha s reac hed the second lowest rate of unemp loyment in Canada, that since the first of the year the numb er of actual unemployed in Manitoba has dec reased from 54,000 January, 19 83, actual to 46,000 actu al, a decrease of some 8,000. Th e fact is, Mr.

Speak er, that in sofar as bankruptcies are concerned, I would li ke to just inform honourab le members that I've just received in format io n that the percentage dec rease in bankruptcies insofar as May '83 to June '83, 33.3 percent decrease, the second best rank of any province in Canada. Unlik e honourable members ac ross the way who prefer to grandstand, who ind eed were paralyzed for four yea rs when th ey ha d opp ortun it y to provi de government in this provi nce, this government, Mr. Speak er, has proceeded by way of the establishment of a Jobs Fund.

This government is still concerned, vital ly concerned ab out - (Interjection) - HON. S. LYON: Incomp etent fools. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, clearl y, the leader of the Conservative Party, we've touched on some wrong nerves because he's shouting "incomp etent fools" across the wa y. Mr. Speaker, I am quite ... HON. S. LYON: That's what you ar e, a bunch of incom petent fools. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, is it any wonder that the honourable members across the way received such a shellacki ng on November 17 , 19 81, when that's the ex tent of the thi nki ng that we mu st me asur e by honourab le members across the v.ay? Mr. Speak er . . . SOME HONO URABLE MEMBERS: Oh , oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourab le Attorney-General on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, wi th respect to the decorum of the House, it is a shame that, wi th all of those representatives of students from other countries in this House, it sounds li ke a zoo.

It sounds as if this is not a triu mph but a failure of democr ac y. It sounds as if that group over there doesn't know how to obey the rules, doesn't know how to give a cou rtesy to someone answeri ng a questio n. If they can't do it, Sir, I call upon you to dem onstrate that democr acy does work in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Le ade r of the Oppo sition to the same point. HON. S. LYON: On the same point of order, Mr. Speak er.

I think becau se the Le ader of the House has ma de reference to the students in the gallery, I think it's im portant for the students in the gallery to know that this is the only left-wi ng Marxist government in Canada. They wi ll understand that, Mr. Speak er, better than my honourable friend, the House Leader, wh o came from that bunch himself and who in most of his life has been less concerned ab out decorum in the House, he's been trying to subvert this kind of a House. MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. The Hon our ab le Attorney-General to the same poi nt of order. HON. R.

PENNER: '!r-lS, I wi ll not lower myself to that dredgi ng morass that he would oull this House into. I would simply say this, Sir, that the students being as they are, students, wi ll know to judge people by their actions, not by empty rhetoric of that kind. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I hope all members wi ll bear in mi nd that this is a question period and wi ll al low some members to ask their questions and other members to answer them. The Honourable First Mi nister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, brief reference to the uninvited comment by the Leader of the Conservative Party.

I don't intend to lower myself to the same kind of name-c al li ng but it would ma ke more sense indeed, to refer to honourable mem bers across the way as being the party of fascists in this province as to refer to this party as the party of Marxist-Leninists. That's ab out the extent to whi ch the Leader of the Conservative Party unfortunately has lowered himself in this Cham ber. Mr. Speak er, I indicated our concern ab out the contin uation of 46,000 unem ployed in the Province of Manitob a, even though our record is the second best in Canada.

I understand the concerns, in deed, of those that are in the heavy construction ind ustry in the Province of Manitoba and that is why I am going to be further meeti ng wi th the representatives of the heavy constru cti on in d ustr y in Ma nitob a. Mr. Sp ea ke r, unfortun ately, remarks and rhetoric li ke we have hear d from the Honourab le Member for Lakeside do not assist i.1 dealing wi th the problems of unemplo yed in this provi nce. HON. S. LYON: Have you and Christophe been talking, or what? MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speak er, a final supple mentary questio n. Mr.

Speak er, as concerned as I am ab out the educati on of foreig n students, I don't mind adm itting that my greater concern is for unemplo yed construction workers in the Province of Manitob a right now. My 4366

Monday, 18 July, 1983 simple question to the Honourab le Minister is, would he consider restorin g the $20 mi llio n that he took out of the Hig hways budget? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Cultural Affairs. Order please. Translation of Statutes HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, I took as notice on July 5th a numb er of questions from the Member for Elmwood wi th respect to cost of translation services. The question wa s the cost of translating - (Interjectio n) - MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Mi nister on a point of order. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I have been sitting but seven feet from the Mi nister of Cultural Affairs. Only a few moments ago it wa s pointed out that if demo cracy, in deed, is to thrive as it ought in this Cham ber, that surely we should be given the court esy and opportunity to hear fellow members when they are speaking in this Chamb er. HON. S. LYON: What do you Marxists know ab out democr ac y? A MEMBER: You're sick, real sick. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourab le Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Tha nk you, Mr.

Speak er, as I was attempt ing to indicate, I took as notice a numb er of questions on July 5th wi th respect to the costs of translation; I wa s asked the cost of translating one page of a statute. The present cost of translati ng one page of a st atute varies between $75 and $1 10 per page depending on the comple xity of the text that has to be translated, Mr. Speak er. I wa s al so asked to state the amo unt of money that's been spent to date on the costs of translati on services and the answer to that is the same. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Tuxedo on a point of order. MR. G.

FILMON: The members opp osite have been referri ng to common cou rtesies in the Hou se. It has been cou rtesy in the past for a Mi nister when he brings an answer to a question, to bring it when the member is here to hear the response. The Mi nister has taken questions from the Member for Elmwood and the Member for Elmwood is not here. I would suggest the Mi nister wait until he is here to hear the answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General to the same point. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, to the same poi nt of order.

There is a presumption, I adm it, easily rebuttable in this case, that members can read Hansar d. If the particular member is not here, surely he can read the answer in Hansard. If he's in capable, he can get assistance. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourab le Member for Tuxedo mi ght have been referri ng to a matter of cou rtesy but he di d not have a point of order. The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affai rs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr.

Speak er, my understandi ng of the Rules of the House is that the question is answered to the House and not to a particular member in the House, and I would assume that all members would be interested in responses to questio ns - and if I can continu e. The second question wa s related to the cost of translating statutes to date.

The answer to that question is not the $2 mi llion figure that wa s suggested by the mem ber, rather the total am ount of money that has been expended to date is ap proximately $690,0 00, whi ch is a net cost to the provi nce; ap proxi mately $500,000 after one deducts the federal assistance that has been provided over the period that translation has been translated. Jobs Fund - unemployed MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Tha nk you, Mr. Speak er. My question is for the Honourab le First Minister in his capacity as responsib le for the Jobs Fund.

In view of the critica l lack of emplo yment opportunities for technical and engineerin g gradu ates in Ma nitob a today , wi ll the gove rnme nt consid er ap pr ovi ng more hi ghw ay constructi on projects so that there may be some legitim ate fUll-ti me opportunities for these engineering and technic al gr aduates in the heavy constructi on ind ustry where they can be empl oyed in such things as design, construction, supervi sion in other fields? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, further response to the same question wh ich is just ab out on the same length as the question from the Member for Lakeside, I indicated that we would be taking that under careful review. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speak er, in view of the fact that it has been demo nstrated that the government has cut out large sums of money from li ne departments in the government in order to divert this money into the make­ work projects of the Jobs Fund, wi ll the government not consid er pu tti ng th is mone y ba ck in to these legitim ate endeavours so that people can be emplo yed in technical fields, in construction fields where there ar e jobs that can be created imm ediately? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I don't wa nt to be just as silly as those who are asking questions and repeat the same answer seven times because this is No. 7 - the same question has been asked wi th somewhat different wo rdi ng seven times by honourable members across the wa y - for the seventh time, I respond that we ar e carefully looki ng at the concerns of the heavy construction ind ustry. 4367

Monday, 18 July, 1983 Mosquitoes MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speake r, thank you. A question for the Minister responsi ble for the Envir onment and flowing trom the questions asked by the Memb er for Fort Gaffy.

I consulted Frid ay's Hansard in which the Mi nister of the Envir onment indicated a wi llingness to proceed wi th an aerial spray program and yet the questions whi ch flowed this morn ing and the comments of the Mi nister of Health in dicated that the oppo sition felt there was some division between the two Ministers; and I'm wondering if the Mi nister of Envir onment can confirm if he still has a commitment to an aerial spray program if there is a health emergency declared. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affair s. HON. J. COWAN: Mr.

Speake r, I can only thank the Member for Springfield for that questio n, in that there seemed to be an attempt on the part of opposition members to im ply that there may have been a change of heart in respect to my own commitment in regard to a spray program if, in fact, it is found to be necessary.

I want the record to be very clear and I wi ll draw upon Friday's Hansard for an indication of what I have said consistently in that regard, and I quo te, "Should it be determ i ned that there is an epid emic situation, a public health threat, and that there is a need for an aerial spray program, certain ly I would support that decision and be prepared to authorize the use of those substances." To the Member for Springfield and to members of the House, my position has not changed and I made that position known on Friday and wi ll continue to make it known.

We wi ll support such programs if, in fact, they have been determ i ned to be necessary to protect the public health of the people of this province; let there be no mistake about that on the part of anyone in this House. MR. A. ANSE TT: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the same Minister.

In view of the difficu lties that some mem bers have had, both this year and two years ago, in id entifying when there should be a public health emergency declared, I'm wondering if the Minister can confirm whether or not there have been to date, any confir med cases of Western Equine Encepha liti s, either in Manitoba or in Saskatchewan. HON. J. COWAN: The member indicated that he has referenced his question and specific to cases in horses.

Of course it is a matter for the Health De partment and the Mi nister of Health to determine as to whether or not there is a public health emergen cy, but I can confir m to him that to my knowledge, there have been no confirmed cases of Western Equine Encephalit is in horses to this date or in humans to this date in the Province of Manitoba for the current year. A MEMBER: Only chickens have got it. 4368 MTX Employees MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

Have MTX empl oyees, currently wo rking with MTX subsidiary in Saudi Arabia, been charged wi th an offence under Saudi Arabian law? MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono ur able Mi nister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, there have been no charges that I am aware of, or the Telephone System is aware of for any MTX emplo yees.

There was an incident that occurred - I believe, April 21s t - wi th regard to work i ng during prayer ti me in that country and I believe that this was taki ng place by the members that are worki ng there - by Canadians, by Ma nitobans who are worki ng in Saud i Arab ia inadvertently - and I have not received a full report on that up to this time , nor has the Telephone System. So I wi ll be asking for that full report and if there is any further informat ion that the honourable mem ber would li ke to know, I would certainl y provid e it to him. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, I find it somewha t strange that the Mini ster is in regular commun icat ion wi th the senior management of MTX. I would li ke the Minister to answer the simple question as to how it took from April 21s t until now and the Minister still has no informat ion as to the alleged laying of charges by Saudi Arabian officials against MTX emplo yees. And a further question to the Minister, could he confir m for the House whet her any di scipl in ary acti on was undertaken pursuant to those charges? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know what charges the member is referri ng to.

I understand that there was a warni ng by Saudi Arabian officials, accordi ng to the newspaper article. I don't have further informat ion, Mr. Spe aker. I have discussed it wi th senior management of the MTS and there's a 12 -hour time difference and you cannot get informat ion that quick ly. Certain ly, if it was a serious matter it would have been reported earlier. I don't know that there's been any discipl inary action that was requi red. I know there was a warni ng by Saudi officials, accordi ng to the informat io n that I have, Mr. Speake r. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, in view of the fact that the inci dent occurred some three months ago, would the Mi nister undertake to provide the House wi th an update .is to whether char ges were laid, as to whether discipl in ary acti on were undertaken by the Saud i Government and report, posthaste, to this House on this matter? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, my informat ion is that this was an isola ted incident; there were no charges laid.

I want to just bring thi s inf or mat i on to the honourable members opposite, that all empl oyees of the Manitoba Telephone System - before they undertook thi s assig nment - were thoroughly briefed on the

Monday, 18 July, 1983 customs of the country and of course are fully aware that they have to obey the laws of the country that they are worki ng on and that's what we expect. MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. The ti me for Oral Question s has expi red. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: I have some comm ittee changes, Mr. Speak er.

On Law Amend me nts, the Member for Fort Rouge wi ll be substituting for the Member for La c du Bonnet; the Member for Osborne su bstitut ing for the Member for Rossmere; and the Member for Loga n substitut ing for the Member for St. Johns. On Statutory Regulations and Ord ers, the Member for Brandon substitut ing for the Member for Riel. On Private Bi lls, we have the Member for Concordia substituting for the Member for Ste. Rose; and Radisson for Thompson. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, I have two changes on comm it tees.

On the Standi ng Comm it tee of Law Amendments, Mercier for Driedger; and on the Standi ng Comm ittee on Municipal Affairs, Mercier for Dried ger. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Government House Lea der. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, some comm ittee anouncements. With respect to the Standing Comm ittee on Mu nicipal Affairs meeti ng tomo rrow mo rning, should it be the case that it's unable to com plete its work because of delegati ons and so on tomo rrow morning, scheduli ng the Standing Comm it tee on Municipal Affairs for Wednesday of this week, July 20th at 8:00 p.m.

With respect to Law Amendments, and there is a note in the Order Paper that Law Amendments would be meeti ng on the 28th and still wi ll be meeti ng on the 28th, but the note is to consid er Bi ll 2. With respect to the heari ng of delegations, and any delegatio ns on other legislation whi ch may be referred to Law Amendments, there wi ll be another meeti ng of Law Amend ments a week from today, Monday, June 25th at 8: 00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Lead er of the Oppositi on. HON. S. LYON: Just an inqui ry, Mr. Speak er, of the House Leade r.

Di d I hear him to say that there would be a meeti ng of the Comm ittee of the House on Wednesday evening? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Municipal Affai rs. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, we're not operati ng, are we, under Speed-up Motions? Then I would think that under the Rules there would have to be unanim ous consent to that. HON. R. PENNER: I don't believe that is right wi th respect to comm ittee meeti ngs. HON. S.

LYON: The Comm it tee of the House is the same as the House and the rules that ap ply to the House ap ply to the comm ittee; and the Rules say that the House shall not sit on Wednesday evenings and that me ans Comm ittee, unless there is unani mous consent. HON. R. PENNER: There is no such a rule, of cour se, and the Lead er of the Op positi on is flying by the seat of hi s pa nts. The comm it tees hav e been meeti ng regularly as announced through this Sessio n, previous Sessions, Tuesday mo rnings, Thursday mo rnings. There are no Sessions of the House on Tuesday mornings and Thursday morn ings.

We can call a meeti ng of the comm it tee of the House for Friday afternoon, for Saturday morning. HON. S. LYON: This side of the House has never had any objection to worki ng. It's my honourab le friends who seem to have the predilect ion against bringing in Speed-up. If my honourab le friends wa nt to bring in Speed-up, the House and comm it tees can sit morn ing, afternoon and evening and there wi ll be no objection from us. Until they're prepared to do that ins tead of ob servi ng their sort of lackadaisi cal 9-to-5 hours then they have to obey the rules.

My honourable friend, the House Lea der, wa s not consulted ab out that and I suggest that the poir.t at issue is whether or not a Comm it tee of the House can sit on a Wednesday night when the House is not al lowed to sit. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourab le Memb er for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, clear ly, to the same point of ord er, if anyone has been work i ng 9-to-5 hours it must be the Leader of the Opposition becau se the rest of us have certainly been here bu rning the midnight oi l for some months. Mr.

Speak er, there is ab solutely no requirement in our rules wi th respect to the hours of comm ittee sittings. Our comm it tees normally meet Tuesday and Thur sday mornings which are mornings on which the House does not sit. Th is sprin g, the Stan di ng Co mm it tee on Municipal Affairs and the Standi ng Comm ittee on Agriculture both met at ti mes other than Tuesday or Thu rsday morn ing and at times when the House wa s not sitti ng. That's a fair ly common procedure.

I would certainly be the first to concede to this comment from his seat by the Member for Minnedosa that normally standing commi ttees have not met Wednesday nights; there's no question ab out that. But the House Lead er has the right to call those comm it tees at any time he sees fit to conduc t the business of the House. I would be the fi rst to concede that it would be more beneficia l if the opposition were consulted and agreed, but the Business of the House must be conduc ted and if the opposition doesn't wa nt to sit in comm ittee, for 4369

Monday, 18 July, 1983 examp le, this Friday afternoon, or Friday evening, or all day Saturday just becau se the speed-up mot ion ha sn't been passed, Mr . Spe ak er, th at would be ludicrous. I submit to you that the rules do not require that all the Rules of the House sitti ng be suspended before comm it tees can sit and carry on their extra workload, that they must carry on to be ab le to compl ete the Business of the House. So I wo uld submit, Mr. Speaker, a comm ittee meeti ng this Wednesday, comm ittee meet ings Friday or Saturday of this week are perfectly in order at the call of the House Lea der. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono urab le Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, wi th respect to this matter , I wa nt to poi nt out for the record I had an opportunity to consult wi th the Government House Lead er last Thu rsday as a result of which I thi nk some im provements were made to the order of the Business of the House. We were ab le to add a number of comm it tee meet ings to this week's work which I think wi ll expedite the Business of the House. I must say for the record that the Government House Lea der di d not consult me at all wi th respect to a comm it tee sitti ng on Wednesday night.

He should be aware that Mem bers of the Ho use make pla ns for Wednesday nights, Mr. Speak er, when the Speed-up Moti on is not in effect, and I would ask him to be courteous enough to wi thdraw that for the time being and at least al low our caucus an opportunity to consid er the matter further and then all of the members plan. HON. R. PENNER: . . . to do that, I had hoped to make it possible for members to

schedule sufficiently advanced by ma ki ng that announcement today, but I am perfectly content to see how the comm it tee works tomor row morn ing and what's left over. The comm it tee may wi sh to discuss am ong themselves a follow-up meeti ng. By all me ans, let's leave it at that. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour ab le Lead er of th e Oppo sition to the same po int. HON. S. LYON: Yes, to the same poi nt, Mr. Spea ker. The original poi nt that I raised I think is still before us and the Attorney-General may say, let's leave it at that, but that's a matter for you and the House, Si r - not him.

In my time in this House, I do not recall a comm it tee of the House ever sitting on a Wednesday evening wi thout prior consent, whi le the regular rules were enforced. There is no tradition of the House that permits the House to sit in comm ittee on Wednesday evenings wi thout permission. I've been in the House, Mr. Speaker, from a time when my honourab le fr iend wa s running for even a different politic al party than the one he professes to support now. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

Since no ho nourab le mem bers hav e qu oted our rules, or Beau chesne, on this matter , I assume that there is no rule that would prevent the House from meeti ng in comm it tee on a Wednesday evening. - (Interjecti on) - Pardon me. Order please. Order please. It has been my experience that it has been the practice of this House that the two House Leaders wi ll co-operate wi th each other as a matter of cou rtesy and decide these things.

I would hope that if there has been some lack of consultation on this matter, that it would be rectified by a meeti ng of the two House Lea ders and the matter resolved in that manner. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Government House Lea der. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speak er, would you ple ase call fi rst of all the second re adings on Bi lls 10 5, 10 7, 11 0; follo wed by the Adjo urned De ba te on the Constituti onal Amend ment wi th respect to Offi cia l La nguages; followed by the Adjourned De bate on Bi ll 55; and followed, if time permits, Sir, by the Adjourned Debate on Bill 3.

The Honourable Mi nister of Municipal Affairs. SECOND READING - GOVERN MENT BILLS BILL 105 - THE MUNICIPA L ASSESSMENT ACT

(2) HON. A. ADAM presented Bill No. 105,

An Act to am end The Municipal Assessment Act (2), for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Mini ster. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a copy of the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Do es the Honourable Member for Mo rris have a point of order? MR. C. MANNESS: Yes, I do, Mr. Speak er. Was it your intention to call for the ai r conditioner at all this afternoon? MR. SPEAKER: Indeed it was. The Honourable Minister may proceed. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Speak er, I have a copy of expl a nator y notes for the crit ic from the officia l oppo sition. Mr.

Speak er, I am pleased to introduce today a bill which wi ll commence the process of as sessment of reform in Manitoba. Our own review and the comments of the public, as received by the Municipal Affairs Committee, have indic ated the merit of several of the mq or pri ncip les put forward in the report of the Ma nitoba Assessment Weir Comm ittee.

Although a consid erab le am ount of work wi ll be required before im plementat io n of these pri ncip les is feasible, a commitment to the concept of a property cla ssificati on system and the establishment of the portio ns of value by property class is being ma de at this time. Three mai n issues are dealt wi th in this bi ll. The first, as I have just ment ioned, is a commitment through enabli ng legislation whereby the Li eutena nt-Governor- 4370

Monday, 18 July, 1983 in-Council can imp lement the classificat ion of property and portioning systems as proposed as the basic tenets of the Weir Comm ittee. As we heard at the publ ic heari ngs, additional research is required before the respective portion s of value by property class can be defi ned ac curately and it is not our intention that this

section be proclai med until such time as that research has been completed. The second item in the proposed legislation has to do wi th mai ntaining a current intermun icipal relationship in the equalized assessment. The Weir Comm it tee recognized that large-scale shifts in assessment from one property class to another would be undesirab le at a ti me when the assessment system was under review. Bi ll 10 0 wa s brought in to prevent such shifts from occurri ng.

The publ ic heari ngs recently conducted by Municipal Affairs Comm it tee of the Legislature heard further comments ab out preventi ng major shifts in assessment between prop erty classes or from one area of the province to another. In the report of this comm ittee to the Legislature, it was agai n recommende d that steps be ta ken to mai ntai n the status quo until such ti me as the detailed in format ion requ i red for impl em entatio ns can be obtai ned.

Although Bill 10 0 prevented shifts in the actual assessment base, it did not take into account that shifts in the equ a li zed as sessment mi ght still occur . Accord i ngly, this bi ll pro poses to mai ntai n the interm unicip al relati onships in equalized assessment whi ch specif ied except i ons to al lo w for new construction, demol ition or other changes in the same degree as those relati onships existed in the 19 83 equalized assessment.

Si nce school taxes are directly related to a mun icipality's equalized assessment, we have therefore extended the logic of Bi ll 10 0 to ensure that no major shifts occur in this assessment at this time. The third provi sion is that this legislati on concerns the valid ation of the assessment role. A provi sion in the cu rrent Assessment Act whi ch valid at es the assessment role is scheduled to expire as of December 31, 19 83. Provision is ma de herein to extend that validat ion so as to safeguard the integrity of these roles and the related real property taxation system.

I have prepared a section-by-section expla nation of the draft legislati on and I have distri buted a copy to the critic for the official opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speak er. MR. D. GOUR LAY: I move, seconded by the Member for Emerson, that debate be ad journed. MOTION presented and carried. Bill 107 -THE CHILD WE LFARE ACT

(2) HON. l. EVANS presented Bill 107 ,

An Act to am end The Child Welfare Act (2), for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Mi nister of Commun ity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. Members of the House, I believe, ar e fami lia r somewhat wi th the content of the am endment to the Child Welfare Act contai ned in Bi ll 10 7 whi ch wi ll enable governments to replace Boards of Di rectors of Children's Aid Societies.

We believe that this is a responsi ble action on the part of gove rnment given the fact th at the people of Manitoba, the taxpayers, virtually pay 10 0 percent of the operatio ns of the Childr en's Aid Soci ety. At present, there is vi rtually no ac cou ntability by Childr en's Aid Society Boards to government for the spending of monies provi ded by the province and furt her, gove rnment's ab il it y to ensure this pol ic y direction is carried out, is li mi ted. We recognize that the powers the government is seeking are a serious responsibility but I can assure mem bers, Mr.

Speak er, that we would use this legislation only af ter every avenue of co-operat ion wi th the society has been exhausted. In effect, Mr. Speak er, what we are seeking here is legislation that in effect is permissive. It gives the government a tool, an instrument, if that auth ority, that instrument is needed. I would emphas ize that this legislation is very similar to that which exists in Ontario and Nova Scotia in respect to the boards of Childr en's Aid Societies for the very reasons that I have outlined.

Furthermore, both provinces have greater au thority in their chi ld welfare directorates to intervene directly in the ac tivites of the Chil dren's Aid Society. Of the three provinces remai ning in Canada that have Childr en's Aid Socie ty, Manitoba by far has the wea kest legislation to be ab le to affect the ac tivities and policy di rections of Childr en's Aid Societ ies. I reject the notion, Mr. Speak er, that this bi ll is a threat to the future of child and fami ly chil d-caring institutio ns in our province and to the vol unteerism in the socia l services field.

We are comm itted to the delivery of services by the private non-profit sector and I've stated that unequivocal ly on other occasions as well. I'm convinced that this bill wi ll not discourage people from volu nteeri ng their services. On the contrary, I think ul timately it mi ght invite mor e commun it y parti ci pation and I can advise, Mr. Speak er, since we've announced our intentio ns, we've had num erous calls from Manitobans concerned ab out the situation at GAS Winnipeg and who are wi lling to serve on a new Board of Directors of GAS Winnipeg, if such should be the case. Mr.

Speaker, this legislation to enable the government to replace Boards of Di rectors of the Childr en's Aid Society is an interim me asure. The poi nt is that ab ove all else we must protect the children in care so that the services provided are not allo wed to break down. This am endment wi ll support the government in its efforts to ac hieve this goal. Let me briefly refer to the policy di recti on in which we wi sh to go and that is to establish a regional delivery ap proach in the City of Winnipeg.

Our obective is to strengthen the care services for children in need and certai nly we wa nt to see a first-rate system put in place. We are follow ing three basic pri ncip les to im plement this poli cy: (1) services must emph asize prevention and the involvement of the fami ly as a unit in resolvi ng its problems ; (2) services must satisfy the cultur al, li nguistic and social needs and aspiratio ns of chi ld ren in their families; (3) services wi ll continue to be provided by the non-profit private sector.

These princip les reflect our pri mary responsi bility to develop a delivery system which wi ll be more responsive 4371

Monday, 18 July, 1983 to childr en and the families it serves. The regional ap proach that I refer to, Mr. Speak er, wi ll be a system that emph asizes prevention- oriented fami ly services wi th activity taking place in the home. Let me say a word ab out the historica l development of child welfa re services in Winnipeg. Our proposal of regionalizati on in ma ny wa ys wi ll cor rect historica l wrong. The present child welfa re system developed from a time when provi ncia l financial responsibility was lim ited; rather churches, and mun ici palities funded chil d welfa re services in the provi nce.

In the early 19 40s, the deci sion wa s taken to develop the present regio nal delivery system through the provi nce wi th government assuming responsibility for child welfare services where no Chil dr en's Ai d Societies exis ted . Out of this development, governments assumed greater financia l responsi bi lity, and in all this time the organization of services in Winnipeg has never been rationalized, so what we have in the ci ty is three agenci es, CAS Eastern, CAS Winnipeg, and ind eed, the regional child welfa re office of my own department deliverying simi lar services.

We are suggesting that we need a system that wi ll be very sensitive to loca l needs, and as I've suggested before, Mr. Speak er, it is our belief through experie nce that smaller agencies have operated more effectively in the province. They've tended to place greater reliance on foster care and ad option which is a mu ch less expensive and more effective me ans of handling case loads. Also where agencies have emph asized group­ home and institutional care, costs have been greater and the quality of service has not been effective.

We believe smaller is better and why a regional delivery ap proach is desirab le for Winnipeg. I wa nt to refer al so, Mr. Speak er, to the fact that region al iz ati on wa s recommende d in a st udy comm issio ned by the government, by the depa rtment, back in 19 77. A regional deliv ery, as it app lies to child welfa re services, has al so been endorsed by two Fami ly Court ju dges, namely Edwin Kimelman and Judge Robert Carr in reports prepared for the provi nce.

The con cept ha s also been end orsed by a provincia l planning and review comm ittee ma de up of senior ch ild welfa re representatives from the ch ild ca ring agencies and institutions, including CAS Winipeg. As well, we have been encouraged to ad opt a regional delivery model by vario us socia l service professionals who are experie nced and knowledga ble in the field. Clearly, it is the best way to go. I wa nt to emph asize that we're not attempt ing to single out any partic ular Chil dren's Aid So ci ety.

What we are doing is looking at the City of Winnipeg as a whole in this ap proach to see if we ca n have a more rational, more effective system, a system that is more ab le to cope wi th the need of childr en and families who are requi ring some assistance. As I've indicated, we'll be naming an im plementat ion steeri ng comm it tee to oversee th e pr op osed reorganization and to work out on a consu ltative basis the me cha nics of a new structure.

That comm it tee wi ll include representatives from the agencies involved, GAS Eastern, GAS Winnipeg, as well as staff from my own department, commun ity representatives, officials of the Nativ e commun it y as well as unio n or staff representatives. I wa nt to emph asize, Mr. Speak er, that this is a partici patory process. We antici pate and look forwa rd to co-o perative and partici pati on of GAS of Winnipeg. There's an urgent need to get on wi th the jo b. The issues at stak e go well beyond jurisdicti onal bounds. I repeat, our mai n concern is and must be the ca re of ch ildr en in the City of Wi nnip eg.

Our prim ar y responsibility is for ch ild ren in the child welfare system in Winnipeg, and indeed the whole province. We believe that only by reformi ng the present delivery system ca n we strengthen the ch ild and family services of Winnipeg. It is im perative that we move ah ead, Mr. Spe ak er, wi th a stronger , mor e supp ortive and pr eventio n-orie nted ch ild an d family service for Manitob ans, which at the same time has commun ity involvement. I seek the co-operat io n, Mr. Speaker, of the agencies involved as well as the members of this Assembly. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question?

The Honourab le Member for Fort Garry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the Honoura ble Member for Sturgeon Creek, that debate be ad journed. MOTION presented and carried. Bill 110 -THE CONSUMER PROTECTION ACT HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK presented Bi ll No. 11 0,

An Act to am end The Consumer Protecti on Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. The bill, Bi ll 11 0, propo ses am endments to se veral aspects of The Consumer Protecti on Act and propo ses a new part to the act respecti ng consumer deposits on the retail sale of goods.

The Consumer Protecti on Act requires disclosure of cert ain aspects of the advertising of loans or credit such as the cash price, the cost of borrowing expressed in dollars, as well as the percentage rate per annum, and a number and am ount of monthly or periodic payments. An am endment is proposed that would require that advertisements made through the med ium of tele vision pro vi de su ffici ent oppor tunity for consumers to be made aware of the ti me of the items required to be disposed and that print size, regardless of the med ium, would be of suffici ent size to be easily readable.

The pri nciple is to ensure that effective disclosure results from advertisements subject to the act. The Consumer Protecti on Act currently provides for the licensi ng and bonding of direct sellers. Certai n types of di rect sellers who enter the province from time to time have challenged the provisions on the basis that there is no personal commun icati on between buyer and seller prior to the time of delivery of goods or services. In such ca ses, the consumer may be wi thout redress if a problem develops wi th the goods or services after 4372

Monday, 18 July, 1983 the vendor has left the province. The bill am ending the act would provide that licensing and bonding is required and therefore provi de some redress if such becomes necessary. The Con sume rs Bure au ha s the ob li gati on to investigate complaints and the right to obtai n ac cess to documents. Without the relevant documents, the Bureau cannot properly investigate matters brought to its attention. The bi ll proposes, therefore, that credit granters mai ntai n records for a period of three years. The Consumer s Bureau currently licenses direct sellers, vendors and collec tion agents.

As part of the licensing provisions, the Bureau may condition the licence of direct sellers and vendors, but not at the present ti me , th e li cence of a collec ti on ag ent. Conditioning of licences is an im portant feature of the Bure au's respo nsibility as it provi des substa ntia l flexi bil ity in dealing wi th particular cases. I am proposing an am endment which would al low the Bureau to condition the licence of a col lection agent.

Other am endments af fecti ng col lecti on ag ents ar e designed to increase their accou ntability to those from whom goods have been seized, those who hire col lection agents and to the Consumers Bureau. Finally, Mr. Speak er, Bi ll 110 proposes limitat ion on the size of deposits, trust provisions for deposits and liability for deposits given to a seller by a consumer respecting the retai l sale of goods. There are two basic principles involved in bringing forward these provisions. The first is consumer conf id ence and the second is the use of deposits for general cash flow purpo ses. Mr.

Speak er, I think it is general ly ac knowledged that the economy is showi ng signs of growth and that consumer spending is a key factor in mai ntai ning and increasing the possibility of further economic expansion. By provi di ng trust provi sions for deposits made for the purchase of goods, I believe that consumer confid ence wi ll be enhanced. I further believe it is wrong in pri ncip le, that deposits be used for genera l cash flow purposes by a business entity.

The greatest danger of the consumer losi ng his/ her deposit is where a fi rm requires deposits to keep one step ah ead of its most pressing financial obligation. Such ap parent cases of undercapita lizati on should not be rectified, in whole or in part, by third persons who have no knowledge of possib le financia l difficu lties of a particul ar firm. I, therefore, recommend this bill to the honourable mem bers for their consid erat ion, com ments and ad option. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: Are you ready for the question? The Honourab le Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speak er, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, that debate be ad journed on this bill. MOTION presented and carried. ADJOURNED DEBA TE ON RESOLUTION CON STITUTIONAL AMENDMENT RE: OFFICIA L LANGUAGES MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed mot ion of the Honourable Attorney-Gener al, wi th respect to the Co nstitut io nal Amend ment rega rdi ng Off ic ial La nguages, standi ng in the name of the Member for The Pas. The Honourable Minister of Ur ban Affai rs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I would li ke to speak on the proposed am endment to Secti on 23 of The Manitoba Act, 18 70.

At the outset I believe it wi ll be useful to reinforce certain issues that were raised by the Attorney-General in his opening addr ess, and to elaborate on other perspectives that are pertinent to my mini sterial responsi bilities. My comments, whi le touching on some of the legal and constituti onal events discussed by the Attorney­ General, ar e intended to express the issue from a cultur al and historical context. Most Manitobans are aware of the fact that The British North Am eri ca Act of 18 67 represents the lega l cornerstone upon which this nation wa s formed.

Not only was it a legal cornerstone, however, it wa s al so a st atement of the founding princi pals of this nation, written based on century-old practices, recognized the necessity to bargain in good faith wi th the habitants of this land. Culture, peoples way of life, their lands and traditi ons were recognized as rights to be bargained for in good faith in excha nge for the right to settle. Those who believed that these issues should be settled on the princip le of "to the victor go the spoils" have forgotten that the countr y wa s founded on vastly different principles.

The rights of the country's Francophones, our Native people and, in fact, all min orities are in danger whenever the ground is left ferti le for such a thought. Secti on 133 of The Briti sh North Am erica Act ma de for Canada a promise that either the English or the French language could be used by any person in the debates of the Houses of Parlia ment of Canada. It al so provided assurances that either language could be used in any court in Canada, and that the acts of the Legislature were specifically required to be printed and pu blished in both languages.

In 18 70, three years after Confederation, Manitoba joined Canada under the provisio ns of The Manitoba Act. Secti on 23 of Manitoba's own Constitutional Act repeated the same language guarantee. Manitobans had entered Confederati on particip ating in the 18 67 dream of a country which could protect min ority rights of those who had chosen to overcome their language, cultural , educational and religious differences in forming a nation.

In 18 70, of course, Anglophones represented the mi nority in Ma nitob a an d the la nguage, cultur al, educati onal and religious guar antees took a different me aning than they do in today's context. After only 20 year s, wi th massive imm igration into the province, Francophones soon represented the min ority in the province, at that time some 30 percent of the population. In 18 90, the Legislature of Manitob a enacted an Offi cial La nguages Act which effectively made the province unilingual.

That act wa s fi nally challenged in 1979 before the Supreme Court of Canada and declared invalid on the grounds that provincial Legislatures could not uni laterally al ter their Constitutions. While those on both sides of the constitutional debate wi ll ar gue whether the courts would ever cause legal 4373

Monday, 18 July, 1983 chaos by rendering our statutes invalid, we forget that the issue is not just one of whether they could or whether they would, the issue is whether the country's mi norities, those here at that time, as well as those who have ar rived later, can be guaranteed the right to retai n and to be educated in the language, the culture and the religi on of one's herita ge.

Manitob a ns must recognize that this provi nce, wi th its Constituti on only 11 3 years old, and its popul ation constantly evolvi ng, takes its very shape, and certai nly its character and strength, trom the diversity of its people . Canada's Constitutional Act of 19 82, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, do not in any way di minish our ob ligation to ensure that we honour the princi ples and constitut io nal guarantees which our foundi ng fathers agreed upon as a basis for this provi nce and country.

Manitob a, perhaps more than any other pr ovince in Canada, demo nstrates the cultural diversity to be found wi thin Canada. Manitob a's culture is formed from its Native peoples; the traditi ons of its founding natio ns, and the ma ny an d var ied cult ural tra di tio ns and perspectives which have been brought to this province through the decades of im migr ation. Canada is both a bilingual and a mu lticu ltural country and our vision of ourselves cannot have validity wi thout taking this fact in to ac count.

We cannot form a society worth livi ng in if we do not recognize fully the contribution that each of its members ma ke to it. Our vision of our society wi ll be flawed if we do not dedicate ourselves to enabli ng all of our resid ents, no matter what their li nguistic and cultural heritage mi ght be, to partici pate fully in the format i on and development of our future.

Recently I received a copy of a letter from the Chai rm an of the Ukrai nian Commun ity Development Comm it tee addr essed to the Presid ent of the Societe Franco-Manitob ai ne which expressed the view of that organizati on wi th regard to the initiative before us. I would li ke to just take a moment to read part of the translation of that letter, Mr. Speak er.

He says, in part, "I am pleased to congratulate the SFM, as well as the entir e French Canadian commun ity of Manitob a, for having recovered Manitob an's right to be a bi li ngual pro vi nce under th e Manitob a Constitution, constitutionally determi ning a historic right and a reality in Manitob a, the denial of which had previ ously obstructed the exercise of natural rights by all groups." He goes on to say, "We are convinced that the recognition, by all Canadia ns, of their country's of fi cial bi li ngual ch ar ac ter is a cond it ion of it s multicultur al nature." He goes on to say that in relation to the rights of both the French and the Ukrainian i11 Canada that we believe that the rights of these two commun ities are indivisi ble and that denying rights to one commun ity am ounts to wea keni ng th e ri ghts of all other commun ities.

Just last Friday in the pream ble to a question, Mr. Sp ea ker, the Ho nour ab le Mem ber for Elmwood suggested th at ano ther lead er of a Ukr ai nia n organizat ion, the Uk rainian Canad ia n Comm it tee, Winnipeg Branch, was opposed to what the government was attempt ing wi th respect to the resoluti on that is before us. I can report to you, Mr. Speak er, that I met wi th the presid ent of that organization last Friday afternoon and he is not opposed. In fact, he's in favour of the position of this government.

It's significa nt to note that many of the representatives of the ethnic mi nority commun ities in the provi nce, Mr.

Speak er, as evide nced by the position of leade rship wi thi n the Ukrainian commun it y, as evidenced by the representati on that was made to the public informat ion meeti ngs that were held in Winnipeg last week, all of them, that they believed that the provi nce's bi li ngual cha racter must be ac cepted as a pre mi se to unde rstan di ng the pr ovi nce an d the country's mult icultural nature; that to deny the rights to one comm unit y wi ll wea ken the ri ghts to all other commun ities in the provi nces.

That's a view that's ac cepted by ma ny of the le ad ers, in fact all that have spoken out publicly wi th respect to this resolutio n. I al so share this belief ab out the nature of this province and this country. It is upon this premise that I support the Constitutional Amendment. I believe that the further the expansio n of service to Manitobans in either of the offi cial languages in a practica l and responsi ble ma nner is a necessary component to this thrust I feel that this commitment should be entrenched as well. One only needs to go to the La urier-Gr eenway comprom ise of 18 96 to see why.

At that ti me, an unconstitutional but legislative comprom ise was ma de on the schools issue. It permitted other languages than English to be used in Manitob a schools. How ever, wi th a change in government in 1916 , Mr. Speak er, during a period that was not known for great cultural tolerance due to the wa r and the turmoil that wa s taki ng place in the world at that time, The Public Schools Act was further am ended to strike that comprom ise.

There are ma ny Francophones in this province as weli as ma ny other ci tizens who can remember having to hide French textbooks or not speak their ancestral language on the ar rival of the school inspector to the ir school. These various fears and infringements on human dignity and, in fact, rights cannot be allo wed to happen to our ci tizens again. As wa s ment ioned in the Throne Speech, Mr. Deputy Speak er, my government is comm itted to preserving and developing Manitoba 's cultural heritage in full recognition of the diverse backgrounds and traditi ons of its citizens.

My government recognizes that Manitoba is a mult i-ethnic soci ety. The French language has a unique historica l and constitutional position in Manitoba, a positi on that has been reaffir med by ruli ngs of the Supreme Court of Canada. Our view is evidenced not only by our commitment to this particular resolution but al so by the steps which we hav e ta ken to recogn iz e both fa ctors in the develo pm ent of gove rnm ent poli cy.

Belie vi ng th at M:mitob a 's cultur al diversity is a significant factor in cuntrib uti ng to understanding Manitoba and Canada, this government has over the past year taken at least four steps to demo nstrate our commitment to the mu lticultural nature of Manitoba. My depa rtment's Mul ticultural Grants Program has been increased from $1 35,000 the last year of the previous admin istration, to over $300,000 this year.

The Li nguis tics Grant Sup port Pr ogram th at provi des assistance for the developing of ancestral language trai ning in the off-school or after-school time period for our various ethnic commun ities, has been increased 4374

Monday, 18 July, 1983 from less than $40,000 to some $60,000 this year, Mr. Speake r. The Mul ticultural Capital Grants Program has recently been increased al so under the Jobs Fund from some $65,000 to $10 0,000 this year. The fourth and perha ps the most signific ant initiative wa s this government's belief in the need to establish an in tercu ltur al counc il formed from and by the commun it y. It is my belief that the commun ity itself holds the expertise and experience to find solutions for conf ronti ng the var ious problems whi ch face Manitob a 's cultural minor ity groups.

It is for this reason that this government established an Interim Liaison Comm it tee on Mul ticulturalism in May of last year. The purpose of this comm ittee wa s to make recommendat ions to government on a formul a for representation, organizational structure and draft by-laws for a pro vi ncia l in tercu ltur al counc il . The comm it tee mem bers were comm unity volu nteers chosen because of their interest and knowledge of the task to be done. This wa s necessary, Mr.

Dep uty Speak er, in order to be objective in doing a full- scale review of mul ticultural polic ies throughout Canada and particip ating in an extensive commun ity consultati on process in various regions of the provi nce, as well as reviewi ng some 92 presentati ons, both writ ten and oral. It is on the basis of the recommendat ions of that comm ittee that the princi ples of an intercultural council were formed.

Follo wi ng recei pt of that committee's report on January 20th of this year, a planning and im plement ati on comm it tee was established whose work resulted in a conference last April entitled "The First Ethnocultural Assembly" held for the purpo ses of founding the Manitoba lntercultural Council. This council wi ll enable the commun ity to make recommend ati ons to th is an d future gove rnme nts of Ma nitob a on ethnocultur al ma tters in the pro vi nce in cl udi ng education, human rights, imm igration settlement, media , commun ic ati ons and cultural herita ge.

It was the belief that this co-ordi nating role had to be placed in legislati on that caused the government on April 11 th of this year to introduce Bi ll No. 50, The Manitob a lntercultural Council Act. This government's position on French language services and on the value of our ethnocultural organizations can reinforce the concept that cultural pluralism breeds a wi llingness to accept cultural differences and a feeli ng of comfort and prid e in exp ressi ng our bein g Ma nitob an s and Canadia ns wi thin our own ethnicit y.

My government has also recognized that our ancestral languages are the very soul of our being. Our language is what gives us spirit, our unique way of be ing who we are, of embr acing our past, enriching our present and shari ng our future. As people who cherish human beings we cannot deny this spirit from anyone, because it takes away from all of us. Those of us who have lost this component really feel a void and I have persona lly experienced this myself. It is this feeli ng and this convi cti on that has seen such a growth in the various bili ngual language program s in our provi nce.

Gone are the fears of indivi duals who have felt that somehow children wi ll be inade quately educated. There have been numerous studies and research progra ms comp leted that show that children not only have more positive self-concepts rising out of this trai ning but they do as well or better in academic, in English, than do children in unilingual progra ms. We mus t al so take time to exam ine very seriously how each of us would feel if some very im portant right that we hold very dear wa s a right only by ci rcumstance and not by some legal guarantee. Let us respect each other, Mr. De puty Speak er. Mr.

De puty Speak er, I concur wi th those in the ethnocultural commun ity who believe that wi thout the entrenchi ng of Francophone rights and services in Manitob a 's Constitution, no ethnic min ority can be assured that governments and, in fact, the entire popul ation wi ll have the tolerance necessary to ensure that all of us contin ue to have avai lable to us the very essence of the ma keup of this provi nce, that being its ethnocultural diversity. Thank you, Mr. Speak er. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Lakesid e. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

I would li ke to ma ke my contri bution to this resolution at this time. Mr. Spe ak er, I do so bec au se I feel capa ble of addr essing this resolution from the heart and wi thout a great deal of prepared notes. It's not slipped our attentio n on this side that most honourable mem bers addr essing this resoluti on have stayed to very carefully prepared text. I voice that not as a critici sm but perhaps as an ap propriate caution ab out the subject matter that is under discussio n and the need for caution in debati ng the matter. Mr.

Speaker, I speak to the resolution coming from a background of one of the other groups of people other than the founding nations - to use that phrase - other than those people that were present in Canada when this nation decid ed to bui ld thems elves into a nation under a constitution, under a Briti sh North Americ a Act, as it was then called, in the year 18 67.

I refer, of course, to our Native brothers who were here, wi th whom Canada and prior to that the Crown entered into various agreements, treaties that set out rights that we respect and honour today and, of course, the accommodat ion, the comp romise, the agreed-to modus operandi, if you li ke, of the two fundament al grout people that were in this country at that time of French­ speak in g ba ckground and of Englis h-spe ak ing background. Mr.

Speak er, those of us that came after that date, my parents included, including those of Ukrainian or Polish, Portugese or Italian, very ma ny num bers of people that have come to this country - and came to this country by choice - knew what kind of a country they were com ing to, knew what kind of constitutional ar rangements they were being asked to accept in becom ing citizens of this country, not only just of Canada but al so of the province itself.

Therefore I never shared the view that is expressed very often, in deed, even expressed by some of my own colle agues from time to time and I hear d it from none other than the Minister of Culture just a few moments ago, that being of - for wa nt of a better phrase - third ethnic groups, I've never assumed nor have any of the people that I'm associated wi th, that I need entrenchment of my mi nority rights in any Constitution or that I need entrenchment on the part of some other min ority group. The things that mi norities under the kind of system of governments that we have, under the kind of ap proach 4375

Monday, 18 July, 1983 that we ti:!lte to mi norities enables the various groupings of peoples to the extent that they wi sh to, engage in the furtherance of educati on, heritage of their specific min ority.

The suggestion that people of Ukr ainian background, people of Jew ish ba ckgrou nd, people of Germa n ba ckground or Ita lia n ba ckground or Po rtugese background can't continue to further the culture of the commu rtity that they are part of in some cases by distant ancestry, that that somehow is jeopardized becau se a mi nori ty group ha s not got some specif ic ri ghts entrenched in the Constitution, it just simply escapes me.

Su rely no one is suggesting in this Chamb er that the myria d of other ethnic groups are to follow suit in the next Session and the Session thereafter and have their specific rights, whi ch I never accept as rights, I think it's a blessing that we have in this country that I can still speak a reasonably fluent German language, al though I would have to go back some five generations to the time that I could trac e some ancestry back to the country now known as Germ a ny. That wa s never a que sti on of havi ng constit utio nal entrenchment safeguard those rights for me.

It was a question and a matter of choice as, indeed, it should be. Mr. Speaker, I have never doubted for a moment, I have no difficulty in ac cepti ng the French fact in Canada and the French fact in Manitob a as it wa s specified, as it wa s written in to la w at the ti me th at Ma nitob a join ed the Confederati on. Mr.

Speak er, nobody on this side has in any way denied the fact that those same rights, parti cularly the French li nguistic rights, that were written into the bi ll that brought Manitoba into Confederati on wi th Canada, that th ose ri ghts were seve rely cu rtai led, denied, tramp ed upon if you li ke, for some 90 years. Mr. Speak er, it wa s my privi lege to be part of a government that had to respond and had to react ap propriately too, when that wa s restored by virtue of a Supreme Court case in 19 79. Mr.

Speaker, I can only recall that there was unanimity in this Cham ber, where unanim ity isn't always that easily accomplished, by the actions taken by my Premier, the now Member for Char leswood, the Lea der of the Opposit ion. We ad opted, not wi th any foot dragging, the necessary positions that the Provincial Government, any provi ncia l government believi ng in law and order would have to ad opt when, indeed, a Su preme Court decision has been ar rived at and, Mr. Speak er, from the then oppositi on there wa s little, or no - in fact, Mr.

Speak er, I qualified that, I shouldn't qualify it - there was no oppo sition other than a general endorsation in support for the actio ns taken by the then Premier Lyon and the Pro gressive Co nservative Gove rnment in ackno wledgi ng that 90 years of wrong had, indeed, been righted by a Supreme Court decision; and that we were prepared to move wi th prudence and di ligence in seeing that the spirit of that Supreme Court deci sion wa s, indeed, carried out.

The speech of the Attorney-General, some few days ago, did better than what I could do in putti ng on the record the sincerity and the wi llingness wi th which the then Progressive Conservative Admin istrati on moved to accommodate the Supreme Court's decision to ack nowledge the French fact in Manitoba, as it wa s initia lly agreed upon, as it wa s stated in law in the statute that ma de Manitob a part of Canada; which said that French services, the French language, shall be avai lable in the Legislature, shall be avai lable in the courts, and the statutes shall be avai lable in that la nguage. Th at, Mr .

Speaker, is wha t the original conditions of Manitob a joining an existing Canada stated. Mr. Speak er, Canada is a confederati on, al wa ys has been. Under the present Trudeau Li beral Government, of course, that confederation has been severely tested, because he is a centralist and he really does not harbour the same feeli ngs, and for the same need, for a federal state as do ma ny others but, nonetheless, Canada is a federal state. The conditi ons for being part of that federal state vary from province to province.

Ontario is different than Manitoba; Quebec is different than Ontario; Manit oba is different than either of those provinces. That is the way the country was put together. Saskatchewan and Alberta are different than Manitoba. Saska tchew an and Alb erta entered Confederation under different conditi ons than Manitob a di d. Anybody that denies that simply is refuting history. I'm simply taking issue wi th the fact that what is now being perceived as necessary, as a right, is not in fact the case.

The opposition is total ly supportive of redressing a 90-year wrong, and in supporting the Supreme Court's decision in the Forest case. Mr. Speaker, I'm not even prepared to argue wi th you, or wi th members opposite, that what the present agreement and resolution now proposes should not be considered by this Legis!ature, or by the people of Manitob a. Mr. Speak er, I resent it be ing represented as the only way of preventing chaos in the province and, ind eed, as being part and parcel of the original cond i ti ons under whi ch Ma nit oba entered Confederati on in 18 70. That is not the case, Mr.

Speaker, and it's going to take a lot of time and a lot of educati on to properly get that informat ion out to the people. Mr. Speak er, for that reason, the very legitimate requ est for havi ng this ma tter refe rred to an intersessional comm ittee makes so much good sense. Mr.

Speak er, if you wa nt to avoid the kind of mindle ss emotional reacti on to this resolution that's before us, and surely if you realize this, as my lead er has said, being the fi rst substa ntive am end ment as bein g considered to our Constitut ion - I say "our," I refer to Manitob a - then any me asure of obj ectivity would say that cannot be done in the time frame that the Attorney­ General, that this government, has to date indicated is the ir ti me sched ule, their ti me fra me for this resolution. Mr.

Speaker, there have, of course, been changes since those origi nal documents of Confederati on of Canada, of Manitob a 's entry into that Confederati on in 1870.

Since that time other major pieces of legislation h1 1e been passed that dwell on this matt er, princip al ly, course, The Offi cial Languages Act that ar ose out Jf the 3 -4 year deliber ati on of the B & B Comm ission, the language act that wa s passed pertaining to federal institut ions, to the Federal Government, the Federal Civil Service, federal provision of federa l services that were all laid out in The Offic ia l La nguages of 19 68-69, I believe it wa s, have in my judgment, in the case of the particular debate on this resolution, made it difficult to sort out for the or di nary per son, the ordi nary Manitob an, what is relatively new legislation that wa s passed in our time, that pertai ns specifica lly to the 4376

Monday, 18 July, 1983 Federal Government and its institutions, as compared to the recognition and the desire to right past wrongs, if you like, with respect to the French min ority in Manitoba. Mr.

Sp ea ker, the position ta ken by the offici a l oppo sition, with respect to resto ring the origin al conditions of Confederation wh en Manitob a joined Canada, the position taken by the then government under my then Lead er and Prem ier, Premier Lyon, I believe wa s correct and ap propriate and certa inly in keeping with the spirit of the Supreme Court's decision, and one that was generally app lauded to doing all those th ings by mem bers opposite wh en they were in opposition, and by the Francoph one communi ty of Manitob a at that time.

The position that we are being asked to consider under this resolution is one that may well be considered by this House and may well, in the greater context of nation-building, be app ropriate if properly understood and if app ropriate time is taken to allo w the kind of study and the kind of scrutiny that this very im portant resolution requires.

If, within the short period of time that this resolution wa s introdu ced and the discussion period that we've had on it, im portant organizations such as the Manitoba Government Emplo yees Association can raise a numb er of pertinent and serious concerns, would it not be natural, Mr. Speak er, to expect that the municipal organizations that have been ar bitrar ily designated by this government as bilin gu al, wh o have yet to hear from this government as to what it entai ls? Mr.

Sp eaker, the Attorney-General shakes his head, but certai nly our information and the information that we received - not just that we've received but the information that's been pub licly expressed by different reeves and mayors wh o have learned from the medi a that they are a designated municip al ity or community, express not shock or outrage, but just express concern ab out the fact that all they have lear ned ab out it is from what they read in the newspap ers.

Th ey have not hear d, they have not sat down with any secretariat responsible for delivery of French services as to wha t that could possibly me an in their municip al ity, in their communit y, in their town, in their vi llage, Mr. Speak er, I ap peal to the members opposite that there is no case made in this Chamber for the indecent haste that this resolution is being pushed through this Hou se. I think the goodwill of the people of Ma nitob a is being jeopard ized as to their relations between the various races and cultures, if wha t is being done ap pears to be done with undue haste. Mr.

Speak er, I share, al though not being lear ned in the law, but certai nly share the vi ew just as a simple layma n. It's inconceivable, as my lead er has said and others have said, that any court in the land would create the kind of cha os that the Attorney-General keeps suggesting would happen if, in fact, we allo wed the Bi lodeau case to proceed. Mr. Spea ker, common sense prevails. One doesn't have to be learned in the law just to have a deep understandi ng for that. Mr.

Speak er, I app eal to the Attorney-General and to the government mem bers opposite, and I remind them, the heat on this issue is of their making because most of it is caused, not by the subject matter itself as to the process, but the manner and way in wh ich they're ha ndling it; the idea of ar rivi ng at an agreement with a private citizen, Mr. Bilode au, in th is case, that will affect a fundamental constitutional change. Mr.

Speaker, really - the idea of srriving at, with one segment of the society, ad mittedly the one dir ectly affected, the Franco-M anitob an Soci ety, but again, wit ho ut any further or bro ade r consult ation, that will affect a constitutional change that will imp act on all Manitobans. Surely, Mr.

Speaker, this government that prides itself on hav ing some sensitivity toward min orities in the provi nce and speaks a great deal of the need for recognizing the cultural contributions of the many min ority groups within this province, should have greater sensitivity, should have greater appr eciation that, the very process, the very way that they're ap proachi ng this problem is what is creating the biggest part of the problem. Mr. Speak er, I have al ways been very proud of the fa ct that in my constituenc y, I have a signific ant Francop ho ne vo te; commu nitie s such as Elie, St. Eustache, St.

Ambroise, St. La urent, al ways been particularly proud of the fact that to date I've received substantial majority of their vote come voting time. I have not received any ma il, any pressure on this issue. I have not received one letter telling me that I should talk to my leader ab out his position on this matter, not one, Mr . Sp ea ker, an d 18 to 20 percent of my constituency is Francopho ne. No, Mr.

Speaker, they are fearful of the kind of clim ate that is capab le of being created by a government acting foolishl y, with indecent haste and, more im portantly, with a total lack of sensitivity to what constitutes Manitoba, 19 83. Tha nk you, Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: II there is no other member wis hi ng to speak to this motion, it will stand in the name of the Honourab le Member for Th e Pas. (English Translation of Mr. G. Lecuyer 's speech in Vol. XXXI, No. 10 8, 15 Ju ly, 19 83, 10 :00 a. m.) MR. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speak er, as a member of this House I am, indeed, happy to speak in this debate conce rning an am endment to the Cana dian Constitution. Th is wh ole matter is obvi ously of personal impor ta nce to me an d a conc ern to al l Fra nco­ Manitobans, since they are the most directly concerned. However, in giving the matter careful thought, this affects all mino rity groups in Manitoba and, in fact, all mino rity groups in Cana da . It will hav e ma jor consequences for generations to come.

All Canadian parties, regardless of their political stand, be they New Democr atic, Parti Quebecois, Conservative or Liber al, are following this matter and awai ting its outcome. Just ho w Manitoba treats the official minor ity of this province will have far-reaching imp lications for all other min ority groups. Th e way this province respects the rights of French-speaking Manitobans will have a significant bear ing on the respect of mino rities, wh ether they be Uk rainian, Germ an, Chinese or other.

By ado pting the resolution before us, Manitob a is rem ak ing hi story and undertak ing a new phase in a more united Canada. At the outset of my rema rks, Mr. Speak er, I would l"ke to review the past events wh ich lead us to this day. Th en I wish to briefly explain the components of the resolution and the imp act of its ap proval. Last, I wish to refute the ar gume nts of th ose wh o refuse to understand the good basis of this resolution. 4377

Monday, 18 July, 1983 A rapid look backw a rds in our history enables us to reject the statements of those who say that this country has only one language and that all debate on the matter wa s settled on the Plai ns of Abraham. I would li ke to remi nd you that the Treaty of Paris ma rki ng the end of the conflict between England and France guaranteed to Francophones of New France their language and religion.

Mo reover, The Quebec Act of 17 74 guaranteed the linguistic rights of Anglophones giving them politica l control, notwith standing the fact that they constituted only 1 percent of the populat ion at that time. From the beginning of col onization, therefore, Mr. Speak er, it became clear that the way in which those defeated in the conflict were treated, and the extent to which their right to exist and mai ntain their id entity were recognized, would play a vital role in creati ng a harmonious and peaceful society.

And were not these people the fi rst to come from Europe to settle permanently in this part of the new world, to col onize and to develop the resources of the country? And then, the support of all col oni zers, Fran cophon e and Anglophone, were requi red to oppose and to resist the intrusio ns of groups from the United States. At the time of Confederation in 18 67, Secti on 13 3 of The British North Am erica Act guaranteed parity of French and English in the Parlia ment of Canada and of Quebec, as well as in the Courts and, Mr. Speak er, the language and rights of the min ority in Quebec were protected.

Was it not norm al to do the same thin g for Francophones of Manitoba under the pressure of the provi sional government of Louis Riel, particularly since the Francophones and/or Meti s, the first col onizers of Manitoba, constituted more than 50 percent of the populat ion at the ti me th is pr ovi nce join ed Confederati on in 18 70?

Si nce the minority rights of Anglophones in Quebec were guaranteed, a minority which wa s ab le to develop wi th total control over its institutions, school boar ds, schools, hospita ls, universiti es, li braries, museums, etc., was it not norm al and logical that equal li nguistic rights be given in 18 70 to Manitob a Francophone s, who were then in a major ity? We had then, and we still have today, the same rights enshrined in The Manitob a Act. Thi s is why I cannot understand the attitude of the Lea der of the Opp osition when he said the other day, and I qu ote from page 416 2 of Hansar d: " ...

This is a very im portant matter, one that wi ll bind this province for generati ons to come . . . " Why then, Mr. Speak er, were the rights of Franco-M anitobans thrown aside? Why were injurio us and ill egal laws passed in 18 90 and 1916 ? And why not today, redress the wrongs and the injustices of the past, for it is never too late to do justice? Mr. Speak er, in 19 08 in a resolution ad opted in council , the City of St. Boniface vol untaril y decl'lred itself bilin gual, even though there were only several Anglophone families wi thin its jurisdicat ion.

History shows that Anglophone mi norities have been treated wi th justice. It is time that Fr ancophones be treated the same way. Mr. Speak er, this is all they are asking. But what ar e the components of this resoluti on? Is it going to re-establish bi li ngualism in this provi nce? The answer to that clear ly is, no. This resoluti on wi ll not bili nqualize all sectors of the province.

Of course, it requires the province to translate statut es and laws and the offi cial records of this Legi slature, and gives the right to use French in this House, as granted in 18 70 and reaffirmed by a decision of the Supreme Court in 19 79. This resolution wi ll al so al low the Manitoba public to commun icate in French, or in English, wi th the follow ing government agencies or institutions, and receive services from same: 1. The headquarters or central adm inistrati on of government departments; 2.

The headqu arters of central ad min istration of the follo wi ng agencies: courts, quasi-jud icial ju risdi cti ons, Crown corpor ations, an d agencies of the provi ncial government; 3. The offi ce of the Chief Electoral Officer; 4. The Office of the Ombudsman. Mr. Speak er, these are, therefore, necessaril y the specific and limited rights which are granted in this resoluti on concerning the use of French.

We have to ensure that these limited rights are a part of an am endment to the Canadian Constituti on in order that persons like the Leader of the Oppos ition do not, agai n, bri ng down upon us such setbacks as we had in 19 80 and 1916 , in order that our rights ar e not di minished to privi leges which oblige us to live in fear and conflict (Interjection) - let me fi nish my sentence first - nor that our rights be subject to the politic al moods of the day. To answer the concern of the Member from St.

Norbert, I did not accuse the Lea der of the Opp osition, I said that in order that such a thing does not happen, either through the Lead er of the Opposition or by anyone else in the future. Mr. Speak er, I quo te here some words from the editoria l page of the weekly paper, La Li berte, of June 24, 19 83: "It seems the sense of justice of a society can be measured by the place that the ma jority is ready to give to a minor ity. Sterli ng Lyon cannot bri ng a rati onal person to belie ve th at his "c ou rtesy" type ap proach tow ar ds Franco­ Ma nitob an s shows tol eran ce an d comprehens ion.

" (Translation) Do es this resoluti on go too far, as is clai med by some who are blinded and obsessed by their own ignorance and/ or bigotry? In my opinio n, this resoluti on is a fair compromise which meets the reasonable expectati ons of a minority which has al ways shown rema rkable pa ti ence an d to ler anc e. After al l, we di d hav e guarantees in The Manitoba Act, but these were ill egally taken away from us for 90 years, whi le in Quebec, these guarant ees were ensured wi thout in terrupt ion for Anglophones.

It is imp ossib le for us to recreate the situati on which prevailed in Manitob a at the ti me these pernicious laws were passed, nor is this resolution intended to turn the clock back. It is rather a step forwa rd, demo nstrating a greater openness of attitude and a greater sense of justice for the future. (English

section of Mr. Lecuyer's speech was spoken here) Mr. Speaker, people of French expression in Manitoba have no unreasonable expectati ons. They ar e not dem anding the letter of the law but simply that which is im portant for them to be ab le to live in French as equal s. 4378

Monday, 18 July, 1983 Had they wi shed to push this matter to the li mit they could have stubbornly insisted that all the laws and statutes previously ad opted be translated; they could have dema nded that all government institutions provide them wi th comp lete services in both languages. as is the case in Quebec, or in New Brunswi ck. Rather, the Francophone colle ctivity of Manitob a has negotiated in good faith for a reasonable compr omise. Should we not, today, as the government. show an equal am ount of good faith and be reasonable as well?

Personally I cannot, in all fai rness, accept for the generations to come less than that which is provided for in this resolution. Francophones of Manitob a have alr eady lived one hundred years of injustice. Never, never wi ll they give up the struggle. If they do not receive justice from today's government they wi ll not hesitate to contin ue the struggle to ensure that their rights are respected. As a parenthesis here, Mr.

Speaker, I wi ll say that it is this struggle that divi des us, that divi des the parties of Canada, and that by adop ting this am endment we wi ll, at last, be ab le to achieve unity in this country. If this House does not give the last word on this question it wi ll obvi ously have to be settled elsewhere, and in all li keli hood at the risk of greater emb arr assment for all of us. Thank you, Mr. Speak er. ADJOURNED DEBA TES ON SEC OND READING BILL 55 • THE LE GISLATI VE ASSEMBLY ACT MR.

SPEAKER: On the adjourned debates on second reading, on the proposed mo tion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bi ll 55 , the Honourable Lead er of the Oppos iti on. HON. S. LYON: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. This bi ll, as previous speakers have indicated, does not deal wi th any one princi ple. It involves a series of am endments to The Legislative Assembly Act, some of which, as my colleagues have indicated, attract no objection from this side of the House, others of which attract serio us objecti on from this side of the House because they represent, as I shall attempt to poi nt out, Mr.

Speak er, an attempt by the NOP to purloin the public purse and to use taxpayers' mone y for their own partisan political purposes. Mr. Speak er, let me deal wi th some of the less contentious matters before we engage ourselves in a discussion of the matters that are not in the public interest, name ly, those whi ch invo lve the NOP in yet another attempt to get the public invol untaril y to pay for th ei r elect ion prop aga nda an d other social is t pu blic atio ns that they would li ke to push ar ound to the people of Manitoba, especia lly if the people of Ma nitoba wi ll pay for them in advance. It's, Mr.

Sp eaker, such a highly ir regular process that I fail to understand how a government of any integrity could bri ng forward a prop osition of this kind in a year when they tell the people of Manitoba they're going to be running a defici t in excess of $600 mi llion, and in a year in which they have al ready inflicted a 1 percent increase on the sales tax on Manitobans and so on. Yet, Mr.

Speak er, these socialists across the way, wi th the brass of 18 mon keys, say not only are we going we going to do that Mr. and Mrs. pu blic of Manitoba, but we're going to get you to pay for our politic a l propaga nda that we wi ll be ab le to send into the constituencies at your expense so that we can tr y to prop up our disintegrati ng government politic a lly and, hopeful ly, wi th the use of your money maybe save ou rselves from the al mos t inevitable result of abject defeat when the next electio n comes ar ound. It can't come, Mr. Speak er, too soon.

Well, I perha ps have given su fficient in dicat ion of where the bulk of my comments wi ll reside when we get to that poi nt. The bill starts out by the kind of politic al tinkeri ng that could only come from the rather disordered minds, if I may so, Mr. Speak er, of people who tinker before they know whereof they are tinkering.

The constituenc y allo wa nce that heretofore has been given to mem bers over a good numb er yea rs, $1, 500, a genera l constituency al lowance whi ch members are al lowed to spend in whatever way they see fit wi th respect to their own legiti mate expenses as members of the House, is to be done away wi th. That allo wa nce of $1, 500 is to be raised to $2,500. The only difference is, Mr. Spea ker, that the $2,500 al lowa nce wi ll be payable to a member only on voucher where he or she can demo nstrate that they have used that money for constituency expenses such as constituency offi ces.

The mi nute I ment i on constit uency offic es, Mr . Speak er, you wi ll be the first to realize that we come to one of the NOP playthi ngs, one of the knee jerks of the left movement in Manitoba, that they must have the pu blic pay for th ei r offic es in each of the constituencies. It's not good enough to have the office and to have the $1, 500 al lowa nce out of whi ch members if they so choose can pay for it today, but $1 ,000 more has to be ad ded so that the NOP can be sure that the taxpayers are paying for their constituency offices. Mr.

Speak er, Soc ia lists, Conservatives, Li bera ls provi ncia lly have all been known from ti me to time to have constituency offices; the extent to which if any, they were paid for out of public funds is up to the individual member out of that $1, 500 allo wa nce that the indivi dual member has been getting for ma ny, many years. But that's not good enough for the NOP, Mr. Speak er. First of all, they are saying by this act that they haven't scooped enough out of the taxpayers' pocket.

They wa nt to scoop another thousand doll ars from the taxpayers' pocket into their pocket so that they can have their beloved constituency offi ces. This kind of a knee-jerk, left-wi ng response, Mr. Speak er, in a province that is in a state of financia l degradati on brought ab out largely by the NOP is hardly the kind of action that a government of integrity should be bri nging forwa rd at a time when it is asking all other people to notch their belts a bit. Well, Mr. Speak er, why doesn't the NOP notch its belt a bit?

Why does the NOP insist on gougi ng the taxpayers for another thousand doll ar s to pay for their pet constituency offices? Why does the NOP in sist on gouging the taxpayer for an unlimited sum that we have provi ded for in this bi ll for the printing of their annual propaganda mater ia l? Why does the NOP want to gouge the taxpayer for that? In a third bill, Mr. Speak er, why does the NOP wa nt to further gouge the taxpayer in The Electi on Expenses Act to pay, if you can im agine, 4379

Monday, 18 July, 1983 half of their election expenses in the next electi on? Why, Mr. Speaker, would the NDP wa nt to do that, commit those three actions this year, each of which is contrary to the public interest, each of which should be and wi ll be objected to and fought in this Ho use? Such wa nton greed, Mr. Speak er, on behalf of a poltical party has seldom been seen in one Session in this House - wa nton greed, there is no other word for it - trying to tell the taxpayers that it's in their in terest to pay for their politic al propaganda, to pay for their constitu ency offices and in another bill, Mr.

Speak er, the worst of the three, to pay for half of their election expenses when the next electi on rolls ar ound. We'll be talking ab out the electi on expenses bi ll, I'm sure, in due course, Mr. Speak er. So the first thing they do, the first gouge they make is wi th respect to the constituency al lowa nce. The second, Mr. Speak er, is a gouge whi ch works the other way. They're attemp ti ng to save the people of Manitob a a li ttle bit of mone y and, Mr.

Speak er, I'm going to speak of this in as frank and delicate a way as I can because the am endment refers, Sir, to the per-diem al lowance that is granted to Mr. Speak er under the present legislatio n, a per-diem al lowa nce of $50 per day when the House is not sitting. That provision is to be struck out by virtue of this am endment and a fixed figure of $3,500 is being replaced as the maxi mum whi ch any Speak er can draw wi th respect to per-diem al lowa nces. Mr. Speaker, when we were in comm ittee wi th respect to the Estima