May 8, 1997

RESOURCE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, William Ramsay, MHA

for Burgeo & LaPoile, substitutes for Robert Mercer, MHA for Humber East.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m.

CHAIR (Mr. P. Canning): Order, please!

We have here this morning the Ministry of Forest

Resources and Agrifoods. I would like to begin by having the members introduce

themselves for the record.

MR. WOODFORD: Rick Woodford, MHA, Humber

Valley.

MS THISTLE: Anna Thistle, MHA, Grand Falls -

Buchans.

MR. RAMSAY: Bill Ramsay, MHA, Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. FITZGERALD: Roger Fitzgerald, MHA,

Bonavista South.

CHAIR: I am Perry Canning, MHA for Labrador

West. I understand Mr. Tom Osborne will be here shortly. He is in transit from

his home. Minister, I call upon you now to introduce your officials. I would

just like to ask that if your officials throughout the proceedings make a few

comments, could they please identify themselves, for the purposes of Hansard,

before they speak.

MR. TULK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let me say it is pleasure to be here, and to

introduce my officials. On my right is Deputy Minister, Halcum Stanley. He does

not like people to tell his name, but I will spell it for you. It is

H-A-L-C-U-M. It is unique - as unique, I believe, as `Beaton'. On my immediate

left is Mohammed Nazir, Assistant Deputy Minister of Forestry, Inland Fisheries

and Wildlife. He, too, has a somewhat unique name. The only person, I suppose,

who has, shall we say, a normal name among the four of us is Martin Howlett, the

Assistant Deputy Minister of Agrifoods. These are the officials, Mr. Chairman,

and to be frank with you, I would prefer that the questions be put to me. If I

need the officials to answer them, I will ask them to answer, and identify

themselves.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Members should have a copy of the Minutes of the

May 5 meeting on the Estimates of the Department of Development and Rural

Renewal, that convened at 7:00 p.m. in the Committee room. Do you have that?

On motion, Minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I ask the Clerk to call the first

heading, please.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Okay, Minister, you can perhaps begin

the debate with an opening statement.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

When I started to prepare myself for the Estimates,

I was, to be frank with you, just going to spend a couple of minutes and then

invite people to ask questions. I have some written notes here which I could

pass around, but I think what I would like to do - there is a fair amount of

information in the notes concerning the department, so what I would like to do

is take ten minutes, if I could, and run through some of the highlights and some

of the statistics that we have.

CHAIR: Before you go any further, Minister, I

would just like to acknowledge that Mr. Tom Osborne, MHA for St. John's South,

just came in to the meeting.

MR. TULK: I recognize the gentleman. Probably

the rest of the people do not. Do you know everybody here, Tom?

MR. OSBORNE: Yes, I think I met them all last

year.

MR. TULK: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Forest Resources

and Agrifoods is really a name that perhaps should be changed again in some way.

Because, built into that department is the responsibility for managing and

regulating, not only the management of forestry and agrifoods in the Province,

but we are also responsible in some way for inland fisheries and wildlife

resources. That is a somewhat limited role in our management of inland

fisheries, as I pointed out, because that is primarily still the responsibility

of the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I think our main

responsibility is the licensing, salmon licensing in particular, of inland

fisheries.

On the forestry and wildlife side, the largest of

our forest-based industries is newsprint. The Province's newsprint industry,

which had experienced a major turnaround following the three-year recession of

the early 1990s, saw significant slippage in demand and prices, and shipments

dropped in 1996 by some 3 per cent in output. That was due to down time of two

of the mills resulting from, of course, market conditions.

The price of newsprint in the Province started in

1996 at a record $750 U.S. per ton and dropped rather quickly, rather steeply,

to $510 per ton. So that caused, of course, some downturn in the industry, but

we are advised and we know that newsprint prices have started to recover in

1997. On March 1, we saw them back up to $535 U.S. per ton. I guess, as a result

of that, we are expecting that some of the down-time that was experienced last

year in the newsprint industry, some of that might be coming back on stream. The

demand is starting to increase and we expect it to moderately increase over

The lumbering industry in the Province is taking on

a role that it has not taken on before. It continues to perform very steadily.

Prices recovered in 1996 and are expected to remain stable in 1997. Production

was 68 million board feet in 1995 and 1996 data seems to be showing that the

same thing will happen. We are expecting a slight increase in lumber production

in the Province in 1997 and the value of lumber shipped out of this Province for

1996 was $27 million - shipped out, the value of lumber shipments out of the

Province. And that is a new phenomena which - if members want to get into it

afterwards - we might want to consider what is happening in the sawmilling

industry. There has been considerable reinvestment in the sawmill industry. We

have seen a change whereby a lot of our smaller fibres, smaller wood, is now

being used because of the technology that is available. The Member for Bonavista

would know that in the Musgravetown area there is a lot of smaller wood now

being used for lumber, being turned into lumber; it is being turned into chips

and sold to the pulp and paper companies and turned into various other products

- if you look at Cottle's Island Lumber and some other places on the West Coast

- being turned into various other things. The Province's kiln-dried lumber

capacity has increased. We now have five commercial kilns in operation in the

Province and I think over the next year or so we will probably see some more.

Turning to the wildlife; we have the highest hunter

participation rates, more than double the national average. We have the highest

participation rate in the country. We have over 60,000 big game hunters and

approximately 30,000 big game licences are issued every year; 35,000 small games

licences; 25,000 - 30,000 salmon licences and 4,000 trapping licences are issued

to the general public. Estimates of trout anglers, we have no way of knowing

because there are no returns to us. Trout anglers vary from 80,000 to 100,000.

The wildlife and inland fish resources are estimated - this is an interesting

note - are estimated to contribute some $200 million annually to the

Newfoundland and Labrador economy.

If I could just take another minute at the forestry

branch and deal with an issue which I think is of concern to all of us, that is

the silvaculture responsibility of the Department of Forestry. Under our

program, the Province will invest this year $2,783,000 in forty-five projects in

Crown land to site prepare 1,533 hectares. For those who are used to dealing in

acres, I think a hectare is two-and-a-half acres. We will plant 2,298 hectares

and we thin 1,689 hectares. There will also be projects that will be related to

research development and monitoring. We will generate 3,510 person weeks of

employment and that is on the Province side. In addition to this expenditure,

the Province will be contributing $546,425 plus seedlings to the value of

$175,000 to the company programs, because we contribute much of our share in

kind. We will be spending $959,000 to grow 9.5 million seedlings, which will

generate another 1,600 weeks of employment. So our total expenditure in the

Province this year on silviculture programs will be $4,288,625.

Industry, which is taking an increasing role, I

might add, for members of the Committee, in silviculture, will invest $5,360,500

in forty-two projects on company limits, to prepare 725 hectares, plant 1,029

and thin 4,960. This activity will generate another 5,724 person years of

employment in the Province.

While it is not showing in our estimates, and while

not funded within this department's budget, the federal three-year TJF program,

the Transitional Jobs Fund program, will provide $10 million in silviculture and

value-added initiatives as was announced by Premier Tobin and federal Human

Resources Minister, Doug Young, in 1996, and an incremental silviculture $8.5

million program and a value-added $1.5 million forest products program, which

will be primarily in the sawmilling and the secondary manufacturing industry.

This initiative will result in spending $2,783,140 in silviculture in 1997, to

treat 2,916 hectares and create 3,916 person weeks of employment. That program

will expire in 1999.

The Department of Social Services also, as many

members know, puts money into silviculture and provided last year, I think,

$1,129,800 to the Newfoundland Forest Service. We did twenty-four projects. We

treated 745 hectares, and we generated 3,037 weeks of employment.

In total, we invest some $12 million and we create

some 12,000 to 13,000 person weeks of employment in the forest industry in

silviculture.

The forest insect and disease control program - let

me just say that the expenditures this year, as you will note in the estimates,

are down. Again, we cost-share that with the paper companies, I think on a basis

of 60/40. It is approximately 60/40 that they pay for insect control; but this

year, I guess because of spray and because of the frost last year, and because

we are in a downturn in the cycle, this year we will not be spending near the

amount on insect control that we did last year, because it is down

substantially.

The wildlife branch of the department, we have

reached record highs this year of some 28,350 moose and 5,940 caribou licences

for a record total this year of 34,000 big game licences. The department has

done - it does not say anything about me as the minister, but I often

congratulate the department, and I think they should be congratulated, on the

job they have done in increasing the number of animals that are in the Province.

Now, there are some people who will disagree that maybe they should not have

increased them to the numbers that they have, but in actual fact, our caribou

populations are increasing substantially and they are very, very healthy, and

according to the counts, we see that the moose population of this Province is at

an all-time high as well, that we have issued that many licences.

We are also somewhat involved in the inland

fisheries, and that is through the model rivers program. We have been involved

on a co-operative basis with the federal Department of Fisheries working on

salmon enhancement in the Province primarily, and the spreading of the model

rivers program.

In the agrifoods branch, very briefly, and I intend

to table those notes for you if someone wants them, in this Province there has

not been - and I make no apologies to anybody for it - the kind of awareness

that we want to see about the agrifoods industry. Some people are somewhat

surprised when you give them a few stats. I will throw out a few for you.

There are over 725 farm units in the Province, and

over 100 secondary food processors widely dispersed throughout the Province. The

capital value of the primary industry alone is over $176 million.

Let me just tell you that farm cash receipts for

1996 are estimated at $70.8 million, up from $44.6 million in 1986, an increase

of 58.7 per cent over the ten years. That is in a time when a great part of the

economy of this Province, and the economy of the country, has been on a downward

trend in terms of production. This compares to a 42.4 per cent increase in the

Maritimes, and a 37.8 per cent increase for the country for the same time frame.

Livestock and their products accounted for $55.4

million - and I will pass you out, as I said, a copy of this - with the major

commodities being dairy at $23.1 million, chicken at $20.2 million, and eggs at

$8.5 million. Crop receipts are estimated at $13 million with the major crops

being vegetables at $5.3 million, and flower culture and nursery at $5.5

million.

Those are just some of the stats that show the

importance of agriculture in the Province. There are a number of programs that

we have in place - the Canada-Newfoundland Agriculture Safety Nets Agreement -

and there are a number of food processing companies in the Province that we are

trying to encourage to carry on to find niche markets for particular products. I

also wanted to tell you that we have an agreement with the Federal Government, a

program called the Canada-Newfoundland Farm Business Management Agreement. If

you need more detail on that we would be glad to provide that type of

information.

I am not going to get into, to be frank with you,

not that I want to hide from it, Newfoundland Farm Products. I think everybody

knows in the last little while what has been happening with that. If there are

any questions people want to ask, they should feel free to do so, but I am not

going to bore you with reading through the same stuff that I have been saying in

the House and in the press for the last few days.

Mr. Chairman, those are just some of the ideas I

wanted to pass out. I want to table, if I could, a couple of copies for members

who might want to look through them. You might make a copy for every member, if

you could, for members to look at.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

I appreciate the explanation you have given to the

Committee with respect to all the things you and your department have achieved

throughout the year and hope to achieve in the future. I would like to pass it

on now to Mr. Roger Fitzgerald to open up debate with respect to your estimates.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to compliment the minister for, I

suppose, his openness since he has been the minister of this department. It has

always been an open-door policy. Each time I have ever wanted to get in to see

the minister or his officials, he has always made time available, and I

appreciate that.

MR. TULK: We had an open door one time where

you did not want it. Do you remember that?

MR. FITZGERALD: You had an open door -

MR. TULK: There was an open door one time where

you did not need it. Do you remember that?

MR. FITZGERALD: No.

MR. TULK: Went up on the side and the door fell

open. You remember that, do you not?

MR. FITZGERALD: No.

MR. TULK: When we went down to look at that

wood last year, the door came open.

MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, yes, yes! Now I know what

you are talking about.

MR. TULK: Anyway, go on.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. The 'flu, boy, it is not

only affecting my voice, it is affecting my head as well.

The minister said he did not want to answer any

questions on Newfoundland Farm Products. I had some questions here, and a lot of

it is a rehash of questions I asked in the House. Now that we are getting a

little bit closer probably to the divestiture date, I thought he may have wanted

to answer some of those questions. But if he is not going to answer them, then

there is no point in asking questions about them.

I guess the first question I was going to ask was

when the minister expected to sign the deal to sell Newfoundland Farm Products

and pass it on to the independent producers association.

MR. TULK: I could answer that in a very general

way. Let me just say to you that we hope to do it - Newfoundland Farm Products

is bleeding the Treasury of this Province, and I do not mind telling people

this. I would not want it to be widely known, because the truth is that if some

people who are interested in buying our produce when it is privatized might find

it - and it may do something to some markets. The truth is that Newfoundland

Farm Products at the present time is costing the taxpayers of this Province,

depending on the month and the price of chicken, somewhere between $600,000 and

$750,000 a month. I think that is a fair statement to make.

Let me just say to the member, while I cannot be

too specific, because there are ongoing negotiations, we want to divest the

people of this Province - and we do not believe we should be in the chicken

processing industry anyway - we want to divest ourselves of that corporation,

very much sooner rather than later.

MR. FITZGERALD: I agree that the government

should not be into processing chicken, and it would work better in private

hands. You indicated that it is costing the government between $600,000 and

$700,000 a month, but in the Estimates here it shows last year that the subsidy

was $2 million. That is a lot less, Minister, than $700,000 a month.

MR. TULK: Let me just say to you that the -

MR. FITZGERALD: Newfoundland Farm Products

Corporation, $2,046,400.

MR. TULK: That is decreased this year.

MR. FITZGERALD: I beg your pardon?

MR. TULK: That is somewhat decreased this year,

is it not? We have put in a lesser amount, I believe, this year as well.

MR. FITZGERALD: So where would the rest of it -

MR. TULK: Where would the rest of it - a great

deal of that, I say to the Member for Bonavista South, has been eaten up in the

line of credit. There has also been a substantial increase in the last two or

three months in the price of chicken, and the market has become somewhat

oversupplied with chicken, so that the amount that it is costing now is far

greater, for example, than it was last year at this time.

MR. FITZGERALD: So where would the extra money

have come from if you are subsidizing Newfoundland Farm Products to the tune of

$2.5 million shown in the budget, and you are putting in $700,000 a month? Where

would the extra money be shown in the budget?

MR. TULK: The loss is showing up in the

operating line of credit. It is being covered in the operating line of credit.

MR. FITZGERALD: So it is money that the

government (inaudible) -

MR. TULK: Which at the present time is $8.5

million.

MR. FITZGERALD: This year alone?

MR. TULK: No, that is the operating line of

credit they have at the bank.

MR. FITZGERALD: Which government still owes

for.

MR. TULK: Oh yes. I have no problem with

telling you that, that kind of detail. That has very little to do with the

negotiations. Because -

DR. NAZIR: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Yes. The Assistant Deputy Minister

just reminded me that you should also keep in mind that part of the cost to the

Newfoundland taxpayer - there are two costs involved with Newfoundland Farm

Products.

First of all, there is a subsidization, a grant

that goes to the processing factory, shall we say, itself. Then there is also a

subsidy that goes out to cover the cost of production of the producer. That, in

itself, is over $2 million as well. In total, we are subsidizing the industry on

both sides. Usually the budget works out to be in the area of $5 million. When I

say that we are paying out, that the industry is costing that amount of money,

that is the amount of money that is going out in both directions.

Because here is how it works. We are in a national

supply situation here. The Nova Scotia price of chicken is set at a certain

price, and it is above the Ontario price of chicken. Here is how we set the

price in this Province. We take the Nova Scotia price, we add 10 cents to it,

and then we add a further cost of production increase - they will give us their

cost of production - and in order to meet their cost of production, we will give

them 50 per cent between the cost of production and the Nova Scotia price, up to

a maximum of 16 cents, to the producers themselves. That is a subsidy we put in

there. We also subsidize the processing side of the industry as well.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, the processing side is

subsidized to the tune of $2.25 million a year as well.

MR. TULK: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Will that subsidization

disappear as well once those same producers now become the owners of

Newfoundland Farm Products?

MR. TULK: We are getting close to getting into

the technical thing of it. Let me just say this to you, that when I say we are

getting out of the chicken processing industry, we are getting out of the

chicken processing industry.

MR. FITZGERALD: How is that $2.25 million - are

there twenty producers on the Island now?

MR. TULK: Yes, there are twenty farms -

MR. FITZGERALD: Ten on the East Coast, ten on

the West Coast.

MR. TULK: - which are made up basically of ten

families. There are approximately thirty-five people employed, I think, Marty?

About thirty-five people in the production side, the chicken farmers, shall we

call them, in that side of the industry. It is primarily ten families and their

people who are, you know, close to them. You know how a farm works as well as I

do, better than I do. There are twenty quota-holders in the Province, so there

are twenty farmers essentially, and in many cases, those quota-holders are the

son of the father or somebody, you know.

MR. FITZGERALD: How is that allotted, Minister,

the subsidization? Does each farmer get a set amount, or does it depend on -

MR. TULK: No, no. Let me just take you back. I

said here is how we - we take a kilogram or a pound of chicken, and we say the

Nova Scotia price, if you produce a certain, you know what I mean, regardless of

how much you produce, per kilogram we will pay you the Nova Scotia price plus 10

cents plus the difference plus half the difference between that and your cost of

production. So if you produce 500,000 kilograms of chicken and somebody else's

quota is 250,000 kilograms - a 50 per cent difference between the cost of

production and NFPC prices. It depends on the amount of chicken you produce as

to how much subsidy you get.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. I will move on -

MR. TULK: If you are asking is it done - say we

give it, just take the twenty and divide it into the subsidy, no, that is not

the way it is done. It is done according to the amount of production.

MR. FITZGERALD: I will move off that topic and

onto forestry. I think the unit in our particular area is unit two, Minister?

MR. TULK: Yes, I think it is unit two, is it

not? Bonavista Peninsula is unit two? Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Unit two, yes. We continue to

say that unit two is 125 per cent or 150 per cent, I forget what the figure is,

over cut. I would like to ask the minister how he comes up with that figure.

Does he take it by what is reported, or what is paid in royalties, or does he

take it on stats compiled by his people out in the field? How exactly does he

come up with the figure that that particular area is over cut?

MR. TULK: I think it is a combination of all

those factors. I want to say to you, and I will make this observation to you,

that in the last four or five months, and I do not know if this is going to be a

shock to anybody or not, I have become increasingly aware of the fact that - I

do not believe we are getting the correct numbers. I have asked the department

to put in place an audit process that audits at the mill, and in many cases,

audits in the woods, audits scalers, and so on. I have asked them to put in

place a measurement that gives me - not only me, but whoever is head of the

department - gives the department a far more exact accounting of what is going

on in our woods industry. Because I say this to you, I am not pleased with it.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I do not think you are

getting the right numbers either. When you get into looking at it more closely I

do not know which way it will fall, one way or the other. I can assure you, with

the system that is in place right now, you are not getting an accurate

estimation of what is being cut out there.

MR. TULK: I can say to you that I have

instructed our officials to review the processes we are using. I think there was

a committee struck two weeks ago to look at the processes we are using, and to

ensure that the numbers we get are exact.

MR. FITZGERALD: Are accurate numbers.

MR. TULK: Hopefully that will kick into place

sometime within the next three or four months.

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, with the shortage of

wood, especially on the Bonavista Peninsula, right now we have a lot of small

mill operators who have invested very heavily - or small woods operators, I

should say, not mill operators, although some of them are the same people. They

have invested quite heavily in purchasing equipment and machinery. They are

finding their quotas are being cut back. It has almost got to the point now that

number one, it is either a part-time operation, or they are unable to survive

and do anything with it at all.

Is there any possible chance somewhere in the near

future that those people may get a quota increase, or is there any chance that

you can look at probably some kind of a licence buy-back, similar to what has

been done in other industries? Because right now if you have a commercial

licence, you cannot sell it, you cannot trade it, government will take it back.

Other than passing it on to a close relative of the family, the licence becomes

null and void. For all the money those people have put into that particular

industry, they are getting nothing out of it, and they see it as a very unfair

plan by government.

MR. TULK: Let me just say to the member that

the Bonavista Peninsula - I have not walked the Bonavista Peninsula. I cannot,

to be honest with you, find the time to do it. I might need to walk in the woods

and I might enjoy walking in the woods, but I just cannot find the time to do

it. Let me just say that there is a concern on the Bonavista Peninsula. I have

flown over it two or three times in the last year, and it becomes obvious the

more you look at it that there is a great deal of over mature wood there. There

is a great deal of wood that might very well in the next four or five years blow

down. There is also a concern with - it is a problem that is somewhat peculiar

to the Bonavista Peninsula, in that there is a large number of small sawmills on

the Bonavista Peninsula.

We are looking at the problem. I do not know how we

are going to solve it. There is a problem there with people who want to make a

living. I think there is a problem developing there with the two major - and you

know who they are, there are two major sawmillers there. They are obviously

accessing wood from all over the Province, including Labrador, and looking for

ways to get wood. There is a problem there that has to be dealt with. Hopefully

somehow - I do not know, and I do not have the answers this morning, to be

honest with you, to the large number of sawmill licences that are on the

Bonavista Peninsula that there is not a wood supply for.

We have been cutting their quota. We have been

cutting quotas everywhere on the Island portion of the Province. There is a

problem. We have to deal with it. I mean, I know the problem is there, and I

have had discussions with the member behind the Chair on this very issue.

Hopefully, sometime over this Summer we can come up with some solution to - at

least start steering towards a solution of how we are going to deal with it. But

it is there.

MR. FITZGERALD: Some of the small operators

there feel it is very unfair to allow the sawmill operators to have a harvesting

quota as well. They feel: Let the sawmill operators saw, and let the harvesters

harvest. I cannot disagree with them. I would like to know what your views are

on that. I know there are arguments on both sides.

MR. TULK: There are obviously places where - it

works both ways. The truth is that a lot of the sawmillers on the Bonavista

Peninsula, I know, are selling to the two major companies that are there,

Sexton's and Jamestown Lumber. I am not sure - it is not a problem that I would

be overly concerned about, whether you are a harvester and an operator, or

whether you are just an operator. The big concern I have, to be frank with you,

is that we are over-cutting the wood supply, and at the same time we are cutting

back on sawmills and harvesting people to the point where some of those small

operations are no longer viable. That is the concern I have.

I am not concerned too much about whether you are

harvesting and a sawmill operator, or whether you are just a harvester. It is a

long-time problem that we have here, and a problem that has developed over time.

There is a move in the Province by the integrated people, the people who I call

the integrated sawmillers, the people who value-add to the woods industry, to

start, yes, to get those people to get access to the small sawmiller, harvester,

and a small harvester, a person with the commercial cutting permit, to get

access to that wood. I suspect, over time, you are going to see a lot more of

that happening. It is a problem.

MR. FITZGERALD: I brought it to the minister's

attention some time ago, that a gentleman in my district was looking to go in

and harvest, say, fifteen sticks of woods to build a boat. Can we put something

in place, Minister, that would allow that type of person to be able to go to the

local forestry unit and get a permit to do those kinds of things? It seems to be

totally unfair and unacceptable that we today would disallow something like

that.

MR. TULK: Let me just say to the member, one of

the things we have done in the department in the last year or year-and-a-half,

is to integrate our operations and to say to our people in wildlife, the people

in inland fisheries and the people who are forest rangers or forestry officials

that you are no longer either one of the three, you are a conservation officer.

There have been a number of incidents around the Province which are probably

being caused by that fact. People are moving into new areas of responsibility

which over time should very well work itself out, but I have to be frank with

you, that while I guess the people are acting within their jurisdiction, if

somebody goes in and cuts fifteen sticks to do something with a boat, I do not

think it is a priority for this department to enforce that kind of thing. You

cannot kick the heck out of somebody. You have to carry on, retrain them and

hopefully get our people, shall we say, to be far more sensitive to some of

those things. You cannot put a regulation in place to do it, I do not think, but

I think you can have some sensitivity training. Hopefully, over time that will

iron itself out.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. 2.1.02, page 125,

"... the maintenance of forest resource roads and development of private

woodlots." I notice that $252,800 was budgeted and that is what was spent in

1996-1997.

MR. TULK: Where is that again?

MR. FITZGERALD: Page 125, 2.1.02.04.

MR. TULK: 2.1.02.04, Supplies. Are you talking

about $573,000?

MR. FITZGERALD: $573,900 up from $252,800.

Would some of this money be allocated for forest resource road maintenance? That

is what is stated on the heading there.

MR. TULK: No.

MR. FITZGERALD: I know that last year we had a

problem in our particular area where every time I called the Department of

Forest Resources and Agrifoods, there was no money left. The money disappeared

very, very quickly for road maintenance and especially in the wintertime for

snow clearing. I think some of the resource roads in my particular district were

probably not cleaned at all. The local woods operators were expected to clear

it, maintain it with salt and sand and what have you. One gentleman came back

looking - I thought it was a fair request - and said, `since it is costing me a

lot of money, I have to get somebody to clear it, can I have it reduced from my

royalties if forestry do not have the money to clear the roads?' Is that what

this extra money is there for, to respond to that need?

DR. NAZIR: The minister has asked me to answer

this question. This entry is related to the amalgamation of wildlife and

forestry law enforcement functions. This money was previously budgeted

separately, one in forestry and the other in the wildlife side last year and

this year we have amalgamated. That is why you will see the overall budget in

the original side. Although we have laid off some people in this area, still the

overall budget goes up in the salary of eleven other areas. That is related to

the amalgamation of the law enforcement - or the wildlife officers are now

registered here as compared to the original services which used to be in the

past.

MR. TULK: So in answer to your question, in

terms of forest resource roads, I guess the member wants to know is there more

money in for forest resource roads in the Province?

AN HON. MEMBER: And I think the answer to that

is no.

DR. NAZIR: It is about the same but what we are

planning to do this year, we may be able to put about $35,000 more in the

Eastern Region which has now combined Clarenville and Gander but that is not

reflected yet in these figures there. So we are trying to sort out - reallocate

after the budget is approved. So we are looking at that.

MR. TULK: Let me just say to the member, the

other thing is that we have been carrying on some negotiations, in the case of

Labrador, in terms of forest access roads. We have put a great deal of effort

into it. If you look at my travel, for example, it is up. I make no apologies

for it because I spent - at one point in time I thought I was running in

Labrador, and it cost money to be on the Coast of Labrador but there is a great

forest resource there that we are trying to develop. One of the things that we

have been trying to do over the past couple of months is negotiate - and I think

we are pretty close to it - some deals with the Federal Government in terms of

the Labrador agreements, whereby we get some extra money put into access roads

and silvaculture agreements in Labrador, so that we can open up, in particular

in the Port Hope Simpson and the Cartwright area.

I do not think we are in a position to reveal what

the figures are, or anything like that, but we have been working along those

lines and hopefully that might help free up a bit more money.

MR. FITZGERALD: So there is no new money there

for forest roads maintenance?

MR. TULK: Maybe $30,000 or $35,000.

DR. NAZIR: There may be, to a small extent.

MR. TULK: Maybe $30,000 or $35,000.

MR. FITZGERALD: There is certainly a need

there.

The other thing: maybe Minister, you could

entertain the thought, if those people are expected to maintain some of those

roads, at least consider giving them a break on the royalties they pay.

MR. TULK: Let me just say to you that it is not

a thought that has not crossed my mind, and it is not a thought that is dead in

the department.

MR. FITZGERALD: Fire Suppression and

Communications, 2.2.02.

MR. TULK: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Are there lay-offs expected in

that particular department, Minister?

MR. TULK: Yes, I think there are some lay-offs

in that department, and let me just say to the member that if you look at the

1996-1997 budget you will notice that we budgeted in that area for $1,950,000.

In actual fact, we spent $2,670,000. We found that last year within the

department's estimates, but forest suppression and communications is an area in

which you really do not know what is going to happen in the summer. This summer,

I have to say to the member, while we have budgeted $2,560,000 that could very

well end up being $5 million or $6 million, depending on the forest season. The

government may have use - who knows - the contingency fund, or something like

that, to recover that cost.

In this particular case, last year the increase was

not on the Island. We had a very good year last year in terms of forest fires on

this Island, but the increase was in Labrador, and it came basically when we had

our fingers crossed and thought that the forest season was getting close to

being over. In a matter of three or four weeks, I guess, we had a massive

outbreak of fires. At one point we had how many burning?

DR. NAZIR: In Labrador there were quite a few.

MR. TULK: How many? Sixty-something fires

burning in Labrador, and they were not man made. They were lightning fires, and

(inaudible), and in several communities on the Coast for some days we had to

spend a substantial amount of money. So that figure - and the people employed in

that area will depend on the fire season.

MR. FITZGERALD: Was there any plan to lay off

those people now who occupy the forest ranger stations as firemen in the

Summertime?

DR. NAZIR: There will be ten people affected.

Some of them are vacant, and there will be some who will not be recalled.

MR. FITZGERALD: Because normally I think those

people go back to work around June 15, and it depends on the fire season when

they get laid off; but it was a fairly steady, seasonal job. Are you saying

there are going to be lay-offs or there will not be lay-offs this year?

MR. TULK: There will be some lay-offs, as he

said, I think about eight or ten throughout the Province?

DR. NAZIR: A total of ten positions affected. I

think they are half and half. About half are vacant and half -

MR. TULK: There are ten positions that will be

affected across the Province. Five of them are already vacant positions that

have been frozen for a period of time and we (inaudible) those, and five will be

people who were employed last year. Some of those may very well come as a result

of retirement as well.

MR. FITZGERALD: So, so many being laid off -

MR. TULK: It is not substantial in terms of the

forestry question.

MR. FITZGERALD: And they have been notified

that their jobs are being done away with?

MR. TULK: Have they been notified?

WITNESS: They have.

MR. TULK: Yes, they have.

MR. FITZGERALD: I would hope they have. Most of

them are expecting to go back to work within a couple of weeks.

Wildlife, Minister, page 129, 3.1.01 -

MR. TULK: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: I think you announced the other

day that you were looking at allowing a couple of weeks early season - was it in

Area 23, for moose hunting? And you were going to allow non-resident licence

holders to come and be able to hunt before residents. Are you getting much flack

on that? Are you getting many people who are calling in unhappy, because I have

been hearing that they (inaudible).

MR. TULK: Let me just say that the person on

CBC - that they interviewed, and published a report. Yes, I got a bit of flack,

sure.

Here was the decision that we had to make. Area 23

- the moose hunting season normally opens on October 4. That is what is set, and

it has been set for some time. I am not sure if it is the correct time but that

is when it has been set. There is one moose outfitter in area 23. He is the only

outfitter in the Province who could not open his season in September to coincide

with the hook and release season which makes his business profitable. So here is

what we decided to do: In a very small portion of area 23 around his camp for

this year and this year only - until we have time to do a consultation out there

to see if people want to move the date back to September - go from September 13

until December 13. For this year I made a decision that I will allow him to

operate in a very small portion of area 23. Actually, it is north and west of

the Gander Bay Road. Area 23 goes from Gander River to Gambo and takes in the

triangle of Bonavista North loop and the Trans Canada Highway.

I made that decision because I felt that in order

for his business to be successful - he was about ready to get out of the

outfitting business because if he had to open October 4, it was a big

disadvantage for him to go in and hunt moose. He is only person in the Province

who was in that situation. So I made the decision to say, all right, we will

allow you - his quota for moose is twenty, that is the licences that he had.

Three weeks previous to opening up on October 4 he will take from twelve to

sixteen moose in a very small portion of area 23. I said for this year, for your

business to be viable, I am going to allow you to take those twelve or fifteen

moose before the regular season opens, go back to the September 13 date the same

as everybody else. CBC reported that I was opening up all of area 23. As I said,

I think it is about 5 per cent of area 23 that he is in, that we have confined

him to, and CBC reported that I was opening up all of area 23. Yes, I got some

flak because the impression was left that I was opening up all of area 23 for

non-residents before residents.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is the way it was put

forward, area twenty-three.

MR. TULK: And it is my district and you can be

sure that I do not want to offend my district, but having explained it and

sending out a number of communications to the people of Bonavista North, I think

it is fair to say. And I went to a meeting in Gander, of the Gander Rod and Gun

Club; I am not sure whether they are still satisfied or not but some of the

people that they invited down as observers, when they left the room they said,

we do not want anything - the guys name is Danny Stoyles. He is not in my

district. He is in Glenwood but he operates at the Gander Inn. We do not want to

put Danny Stoyles' business under, and if it is just for this year, we are

prepared to live with that. I think, from what I have done - and I am usually a

pretty good politician when it comes to finding out what is happening in my

district - from what I can find out in my district, it is not going to defeat me

in the next election because I have helped the business survive for one year.

MR. FITZGERALD: Are you looking at the opening

dates of all moose hunting or big game hunting seasons?

MR. TULK: Yes, we are going to look at it,

obviously but here is how the Province breaks it down - and I do not know the

exact area numbers although they are in the book if you want to get them. On the

Baie Verte Peninsula there is an area there that we open on October 4 and it

runs up to January 6, somewhere around there. Then, when you get to Bonavista

North and come down the Avalon Peninsula, come down your area, all of those

areas open on October 4. The rest of the Province opens on September 13. This

area west of here, all this red opens on September 13. This here and this here

open on October 4.

As I said to you, there are no outfitters in this

area. There is one outfitter - and this area up here, this little jut - I said

to him, all right, you can hunt there. Other than that, let me just say as a

guiding principle, we are not into this to open up moose hunting seasons to

people from outside the Province before we open up to people in the Province.

This is an exception that I felt I had to do for this year, and over the Summer

we will either decide - I am going to do a consultation out there and say: Look,

we have this outfitter here and he has a problem. Help him solve it. And I will

make a decision based on that.

MR. FITZGERALD: All of the seasons, to my mind,

are open much too early. Nobody enjoys going moose hunting and wiping the flies

off you, or having to take your meat and rush home. It is a common complaint

with everybody you meet, that most of the big game hunting seasons open far too

early.

MR. TULK: The problem is that we have an

outfitting industry in the Province that now is worth some $20 million to $25

million a year in terms of the economy, and increasingly people are trying to

hook up their moose licences, their caribou licences, with hook-and-release

salmon fishing, which is becoming increasingly popular in the Province and

becoming increasingly popular throughout the world. People will go and buy a

farm salmon and go out and hook-and-release one on their own.

The problem with opening up the late season - I

agree with you; I would sooner hunt in the late Fall and early Winter, although

I do not want to get too far into the Winter either because that opens us up to

the kind of activity that we see about the seals and Greenpeace. A baby moose on

the snow, taken with a camera, with blood all over the place, would make a great

picture for somebody who wanted to raise a couple of million dollars to put an

industry out of business. So there is a problem on that side in terms of

outfitting, in terms of hunting in the snow.

The problem that you have to deal with here is the

problem of getting it to coincide for those businesses. If you do not open it up

for everybody - you know what was said in Area 23.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

MR. TULK: So that is the problem with having a

later season, to get the two to coincide, and both of them are important.

Twenty-two million dollars to this economy is very important, and nobody wants

to take off a Newfoundlander's table any moose or caribou that he needs to feed

his kids.

MR. FITZGERALD: I will pass for now, Mr.

Chairman, and let some other people ask some questions.

CHAIR: The Chair recognizes Bill Ramsay, Member

for Burgeo and LaPoile. Bill, do you have any questions for the minister?

MR. RAMSAY: Not at this time.

CHAIR: The Chair recognizes Tom Osborne, Member

for St. John's South.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you.

I have just a couple of quick questions, Minister.

What measures are the government putting in place at this time to ensure that

the sawmill operators and paper producers and so on are doing replantation so

that our forestry does not go the way that the fishery has gone?

MR. TULK: Well, let me say to the Member for

St. John's South that we have an advantage. If we do not guard the forest, there

is the danger that the forest will go the way of the Northern cod stock. The

difference is that we can see the trees. We could not see the fish disappearing.

In other words, it is there in front of you. It is physical and you can get a

pretty good count.

We have a shortage of wood on the Island portion of

the Province. There are people who dispute my figures, but I think they are

fairly good. We have a shortage of wood in the Province over the short term. The

problem that we are experiencing here - and I say this without any partisanship

at all - is not what governments have done in the last twenty years. The problem

we have is what governments and paper companies did not do prior to that twenty

years. We have an age class of wood that is up here and it is over-mature, and

there was not enough - in fact, you saw the graph - you get a hollow effect in

the graph. So the problem is not what we are doing now in terms of silviculture

treatment. I went through the figures and it is there what we are doing in

silviculture.

I have to say to the hon. gentleman, the problem is

not now with the paper companies either, in all fairness to them. That is not

that the paper companies have to be good people any more than they were good

people twenty-five or thirty years ago, but the truth of the matter is that

there is an environmental movement, in Europe primarily, which is seeing that

the paper companies move to what is called `certification'. And if you are going

to stay the next two to five year with the standards that are now being

developed - I forget the numbers, and they are not important to us anyway; they

are important to people who work at them. The standards are now being developed

that if your paper - say, Abitibi-Price's paper out of Stephenville - goes into

the European market, and does not have that certification stamp on it, then it

is going to do one of two things. It is going to demand a lower price in the

marketplace, or it is not going to be sold at all.

The paper companies, I have to say to the hon.

member - and that comes about as a result of - included in that is this whole

idea of declaring Abitibi-Price and Corner Brook's price as lands, and their

trees and their holdings, as being unmanaged. We do that as a department, and

that will be part of that certification process. So that if they do not live up

to good environmental standards and keep the forests as they should be, and keep

replanting, they are going to have difficulty in the marketplace.

I think I have to say to you, and I am not in the

habit of praising paper companies, I have not spent my lifetime at it, as you

know, but I have to say that I think, because of what is happening in the world,

those people are moving closer towards that. I think today we are taking care of

our forests, we are doing the silviculture work, which is the planting of trees,

the thinning of trees, the pre-commercial thinning of trees and so on. We are

doing the work that we need to do today. Because you cannot make it grow faster

and fill up that trough that I talked about just now.

The other thing I say to you is that if we access

wood in Labrador - and this is true - if we could - and that is an aboriginal

land claims problem which has to be dealt with. I am not saying it should not be

there, I am not passing any judgement on it. The fact is it is there. If the

aboriginal land claims agreement were settled today, we have in the Lake

Melville area - and I tell you, it would do your heart good to fly over it,

except for the fact that it is starting to become aged - we have in Labrador an

AAC that is well over 500,000 cubic metres, 530,000 cubic metres, I believe,

that we should be allowed to take.

Now, some people dispute our figures, saying they

are too high. So, let us say we backed off and said alright, we could harvest

350,000, 375,000 cubic metres. We harvested 32,000, last year, which means that

there is wood in Labrador that if we had those agreements settled, and if we had

the infrastructure in place - and that is what we are trying to do with the

Labrador agreements on the Coast and Port Hope Simpson and Cartwright and

Charlottetown. If we could access that wood - there is not a shortage in the

Province. There is a shortage on the Island. If you are confined to the Island,

there is a shortage.

I think, to be frank with you, that the

silviculture work that not only this government but previous governments have

done in the last twenty years is good. I have flown over it. I tell you, one of

the things I would like to do for all members of this House - because I was an

opponent of clear-cutting. If you look at B.C. you have to be an opponent of

clear-cutting. But comparing clear-cutting in B.C. and comparing clear-cutting

in Newfoundland is like comparing apples and oranges.

The truth of the matter is that there is a very

good natural regeneration taking place in areas that have been clear-cut. It

need to be thinned, it needs to be pruned, it needs to be treated like a farm,

but it is there, the seed is there and the stuff is growing. If you were to fly

west of Corner Brook - and I would like to be able to take every member of the

House, actually, and show them what has happened west of - and this is a

particular area; there are other areas in the Province, but particularly west of

Corner Brook - show them what has happened west of Corner Brook on the Kruger

limits and how they have managed that forest.

In twenty years time we are not going to have a

problem in this Province. Silviculture work is being done. It just takes time to

catch up for what, shall we say, our forefathers did not do. Because everybody

believed you could go in and cut it all down. We think we can manage our way

through the next twenty to twenty-five years and after that we think we are

okay.

MR. OSBORNE: What quotas are you going to allow

in Labrador if the land claims get settled?

MR. TULK: Pardon me?

MR. OSBORNE: What quotas, what cubic metre -

MR. TULK: What will be the AAC? We will talk to

the aboriginal people about that. I have no doubt that there will be some

agreement set in the process of settling the aboriginal land claims - that there

will be a process set. Our figures tell us that we can harvest 530,000 cubic

metres. Because of their concerns and perhaps because of their cultural values,

we might very well end up with somewhat less than that. Let us suppose we said:

Alright, we could (inaudible) -

MR. OSBORNE: No, I mean per year.

MR. TULK: That is what I am talking about - per

year. Let us suppose we said that we could harvest 350,000 cubic metres. That is

down 190,000 or 120,000 cubic metres. There will be some sort of agreement

hopefully in the land claims thing on just where we all come out at.

Let me just say to you, and Hal just reminded me of

this, that one of the things we have said to people in Labrador, and that we

have as a principle of development of the forest industry in Labrador - and

there is some movement taking place in Labrador, it is not dead - is that we

want to ensure it is for the maximum economic benefit of the people of Labrador.

We want to make sure that all the processing that is possible in Labrador is

done in Labrador, first of all in lumber, first of all in lumber-related

products, and then in chips and so on. We believe there is enough that we will

be able to take care of the pulp mills and, at the same time, get into more

value-added.

I can tell the hon. gentleman that he should if he

is down - let me just say to him: let me give you a couple of examples that if

you are in that area in the Summer - the Member for Bonavista South would know

something of what I am talking about, because he has two integrated sawmills in

his home town area. If you are in the Glenwood or Cottle's Island area this

Summer, you should walk in and see Stuckless Forest Products, see what it is

doing in terms of value adding. You should go out to Cottle's Island Lumber and

see what they are doing. Cottle's Island Lumber is now putting together houses

out of what was, before, wasted timber, thrown out as slabs. They are now

putting together what we call small houses. The houses, about twelve feet by

sixteen feet, are for the Japanese market. Now, that is value-added. That is

what they are doing, and they are saving a lot (inaudible).

We are saying to the people in Labrador - and we

just had a conference in Labrador, which I have to say to the hon. gentleman, in

all fairness, forget the politics and all the rest of it, I went down there,

sometime in March I guess it was. It was one of the best conferences I have ever

attended anywhere in this Province. It was made up of all the industry people.

The people of Port Hope Simpson, and the people along the Labrador Coast, said:

We want to steer in this direction. There is a good movement afoot there. I

think the department and the people of Labrador over the next few years will

develop that industry. We are working actively with them now.

In terms of the quotas, I suspect it will not be

530,000 cubic metres, but it will be something that will be negotiated somewhere

in between as a result of a land claims agreement. The figures I am giving you

are on an yearly basis.

MR. OSBORNE: Are the paper companies looking at

importing wood from other provinces?

MR. TULK: The paper companies last year from

Labrador, from Prince Edward Island, and Nova Scotia, imported I think it was

some 60,000 cubic metres. That is ongoing. I do not have a problem with that. We

usually have a problem with shipping out raw materials and not processing. In

this case we are bringing it in and processing it.

They feel comfortable. As a matter of fact, if you

recall when we released the twenty-year forestry development plan some two or

three months ago, Kruger was on saying that they feel it is okay in terms of

wood supply. They have lots of it. Abitibi is dealing with it, and they are very

active in the market place looking for wood. If we could somehow keep accessing

some wood, and not necessarily round wood either, from Labrador - you know, the

chips or whatever, or slabs. One of the things we are doing, I can tell the hon.

member, in Labrador, is that we are looking at now saying: Alright, instead of

taking the slab and throwing it out in a pile, debark your timber before you saw

it into lumber, and then the slabs should be able to be bundled into a square

bulk, the same as you bulk pulpwood, and it is sent out to the paper companies,

and you should get more for it. Because you are not sending out any rind - what

we call rind. Bark, I suppose, most people call it, but I used to call it rind.

Those kinds of things are happening. Yes, they are

bringing in wood now, and they will, I suspect, continue for the next ten to

fifteen years to bring wood in from outside the Province. That is good. They are

bringing in a raw product from Prince Edward Island, processing it, and sending

it off as paper. God bless them.

MR. OSBORNE: I know, if you travel the other

Maritime Provinces, very rarely will you see vegetables and so on from

Newfoundland, which is not the case here. I mean, you go into any supermarket

and you see New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or Prince Edward Island vegetables. Is

there anything that we can do here in the Province to - because I know if we buy

local vegetables most people will compliment the farmer that it is a much better

quality. Is there anything we can do here to make our product more competitive

on the mainland market?

MR. TULK: Well, we have been developing a land

base with farmers and I think we have to continue to do that in some small way.

We are not going to be putting in - no government is going to be putting in new

subsidies into anything these days. We are into management training.

In terms of promoting the agricultural industry, we

are just about ready to go - I believe, Marty? - with an agricultural awareness

program. First of all, I think what you have to do, and I say this to you in all

sincerity, is that we have to build an awareness of how important the

agricultural industry is to this Province. We are not an agricultural society. I

mean, there are patches; the Musgravetown area, there is the Goulds area, the

Codroy Valley area and there is the Cormack area where the hon. gentleman over

here comes from. In those areas there is an agricultural culture but generally

throughout the Province we do not believe that there is any agriculture in the

Province. Most people think there is nothing here, except we grow a few spuds

and a few turnips. By the way, our turnips are - there is now a gentleman, I am

not going to name him because there is a business proposition - there is a

gentleman now who is looking at exporting Newfoundland turnip - rutabaga, we

call them turnips here. They are supposed to be the best in - he is now talking

about exporting that to the mainland of Canada. He is looking at developing a

huge tract of land to start growing Newfoundland turnips to export out of the

Province. We export some eggs. We export some milk, too, I think, and berries.

If you look the argifoods industry, there is an increasing number of small-nich

industries that are creating food products.

There was a show on last year, the hon. member

probably remembers, over at the fluvarium. We laid out some Newfoundland

agrifoods products and it was impressive. We have also put in place, in the last

year-and-a-half, a strategy to start getting back into the fur market. I spent

some time, along with the assistant deputy, this year, in Europe, in Denmark,

looking at the structure that they have in place in Denmark and Finland. Finland

is primarily for fox and Denmark is primarily for mink and it is amazing the

industry that they have. When you pick up their brochure, do you know the first

thing that is on it? The fur farming industry started in North America. In this

country we are exporting - I think it is what? How many furs this year?

WITNESS: About 40 million.

MR. TULK: Forty million?

WITNESS: We are not talking about here - for

Canada, now.

MR. TULK: Yes, for Canada. Forty what?

WITNESS: Yes, about 40 million.

MR. TULK: Forty million furs?

WITNESS: Yes, for Canada.

MR. TULK: For all of Canada.

At one place where we were in Finland, they had 9

million fox - a tremendous industry, and the truth is, the farmer owns

everything from the feed mill right to Saga furs. Is anybody familiar with Saga

furs, hearing the brand name Saga furs? They own that company that designs fur

coats, that does promotions, and I tell you, the guy who is running it is as

sharp as anyone I ever met in my life, I tell you that - a great fellow, too,

but they own the whole process. As a matter of fact, they contributed last year

to the government in Denmark - to Denmark people with their mink - contributed

$600,000 to the government for research. For farmers there so that they could

research the industry. So we have developed the first strategy in that regard.

I want to say something else in defence, too, of

Newfoundland Farm Products. The one thing that Newfoundland Farm Products has

done is develop a product and develop a market that is second to none. I think

most people would agree, and we are exporting - one of the things they did last

year was get the Sobeys contract and they are getting into secondary processing.

That industry, if it were run by private enterprise, I believe, outside of

government, would be very valuable. The product is excellent. Country Ribbon

chicken is excellent chicken. I always buy it in the supermarket.

Last week I went out - my son was coming to visit

me - and he loves chicken wings. I could not find any Country Ribbon chicken

wings on the shelf, and I bought something else. Gee, I had a job to eat it

myself, and I can eat anything. When you compare it to Country Ribbon chicken,

there is no comparison. That product is great.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: What are you laughing at?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: That I had a job to eat anything,

yes.

There is some movement in the agricultural industry

in the Province, but I think the first thing we have to do is make people aware

that there is room for more. Once we do that we will get the support we need.

That is what we are trying to do.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) bad.

MR. TULK: Yes, they were. The wings were bad.

MR. OSBORNE: The parks that are being

privatized, the waterways in those parks, I know that there has been talk and I

do not know how close the boundaries of the campsites that are being privatized

come to the actual areas that are going to be kept within, I guess,

legislatively protected as -

MR. TULK: Buffer zones?

MR. OSBORNE: Yes. But you may be familiar with

the salmon rivers that are in those areas. Are there going to be any measures

put in place to ensure that those are protected?

MR. TULK: Salmon rivers?

We have, in the Department of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods, and I do not know what the exact numbers are, but there are buffer

zones. You are talking about cutting wood, and that kind of stuff, right?

MR. OSBORNE: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: There are buffer zones that you

cannot cut on, and we have had some instances where we have had to fine people.

As a matter of fact, we have one - I am not going to name that either - one of

Kruger's private contractors that we are now pursuing because it is on managed

land, to cut the buffer along by the river; so that person is getting fined.

There are some others. I have become aware of a

couple of others in the last week that we are going to investigate, but there

are buffer zones that are established. What is the numbers in meters? How many

meters do you have to be away from a river if you are -

DR. NAZIR: Thirty meters.

MR. TULK: Thirty meters, okay.

DR. NAZIR: One hundred feet.

MR. TULK: About 100 feet that you are not

allowed to come within a river. Now there might be some argument that number

should be larger or not be larger, but there are buffer zones established where

we say: You cannot cut; you cannot destroy close to a river.

MR. OSBORNE: I have not looked through. You

have a salmonoid enhancement -

MR. TULK: Enhancement program?

MR. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. TULK: Yes. For the last five years - do you

have a question about it?

MR. OSBORNE: No, I was wondering -

MR. TULK: I was going to expound on it.

MR. OSBORNE: Pardon me?

MR. TULK: I was going to expound on it, but you

may have a question.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay, you go ahead and I will -

MR. TULK: As you know there was, in Atlantic

Canada, a conclusion reached, and rightfully so, that the Atlantic salmon was

becoming an endangered species; so there was a buy-out of commercial salmon

licences, with the exception of 100 in the Province. In all fairness, I think

that was done by John Crosbie, that he started that program. It is a good

program. It is called the CASEC program. I do not know what the letters stand

for. They have more letters than you can say, but it is a CASEC program, which

means it is an enhancement program, and the Federal Government and ourselves

have spent millions of dollars on that. As a result of that, the salmon

populations along the Northeast Coast, the Exploits River, which is one of the

premier tourist attractions in Eastern Canada -the salmon on the Exploits is

coming back. The salmon along the Northeast and the East Coast and the Northern

Peninsula - if you put a line across Newfoundland like that - they are coming

back.

We expect this year on the Gander, where last year

the count was somewhere in the vicinity of 25,000, this year the projections

that we have been given should be anywhere from, and I think I am being - pardon

me from saying this - somewhat conservative here, maybe in the area of 40,000 to

60,000 salmon this year coming back.

Unfortunately, the same is not holding true, shall

we say, in the southern portion of the Province. The salmon have not come back

on those rivers in the way that we would have liked to have seen them come back

but there is a -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Well, that may very well be the case,

but what I am saying to you is that - but where we have had the enhancement

programs in place they have proven very successful.

There is also another movement in the Province -

which I do not know if the hon. member is aware of or not, but there are some

publications on it that you might want to get and look at - and that is the

community watershed management groups, and some of them like on the West Coast

and Humber Valley - you fellows asked me a question on it last week.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: That is not the way it is going to be

but they have to work though - but you cannot stop the world (inaudible), Rick.

The thing is that the community watershed management concept is developing in

the Province, it is developing in Atlantic Canada, it is developing in Quebec

whereby the communities that are adjacent to the rivers take over a great deal

more management and have a great deal more say about the rivers that are there.

The enhancement program has been very successful. The Federal Government is

responsible for this, primarily. We do the licencing but the program has run out

and we now have to find ways to see that that program is put back in place.

MR. OSBORNE: I noticed in your opening remarks,

Minister, you mentioned the fact that you are going to cut back on spraying this

year as far as insect control is concerned in the forest. Are you confident

enough that the problem is under control, that that is actually a safe move?

MR. TULK: You will never be totally confident

about insect infestation because while you are dealing with insect `a' this year

you may be dealing with insect `b' next year but I am confident that in terms of

- the hemlock looper is the one we have been spraying for. For the next two

years, we can do projections, we can do counts and we can be fairly confident

for two years - that for the next two years the infestation will be way down.

Now, we will do counts this year, next year and make projections for the next

two years after this year for that and then we will see. That number and whoever

is the minister, whoever is running the department, that number will go up and

down for insect infestation but you have a good enough handle on it that you

know what is going to happen. It is primarily on the West Coast that we have the

problem with the hemlock looper in the last little while and the counts there

are down. That had to do with, some with the spraying and it also had to do with

the natural things that happened last year such as an early frost which killed

the larva.

MR. OSBORNE: Now, it may be somewhat of a

foolish question, I know that vehicles travelling around the Province -

MR. TULK: It has been asked here before;

foolish questions have been asked in this place before.

MR. OSBORNE: I know vehicles travelling out of

the Province, for example, have to be sprayed and so on before they -

MR. TULK: Washed, yes.

MR. OSBORNE: Yes, washed. The lumber that is

being imported from other provinces, is there any risk of insects being brought

into the Province on the lumber that is being brought in?

MR. TULK: There is always a risk that it will

happen. We spray to go the other way but we do not spray to come this way and it

is not one of the things that I am particularly fond of. Moe, would you answer

that question for the gentleman?

DR. NAZIR: Any insects on trees would come

either on branches or bark. Lumber when it comes in has no bark on it. So most

of the insects eggs or insect state are not there and therefore there is very

little chance of any insects coming in on lumber. There may be some but they

would already be here. So if you are asking if there is any quarantine in place,

there is none. In terms of branches, there are some insects which could come

here and the Federal Government agriculture department keeps a tab on it. They

monitor it. There is a fungal disease called scleroderris which did not exist in

Newfoundland around fifteen or twenty years ago. It was found in the St. John's

area, Mount Pearl, and a few other areas.

We tried to put a semi-quarantine (inaudible) in

place, but the Federal Government did not agree because if it is here in St.

John's that means it is probably out in other places.

That is the only other disease I am aware of which

was not here. We have had to put some (inaudible) but that is more related to

bringing in the nursery stock as compared to lumber.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. I have another question for

the minister.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible). He is running this

place.

MR. OSBORNE: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Oh, I do not mind.

MR. OSBORNE: One last question for the minister

on the issue of spraying vehicles. I imagine that would fall under your

department, to have vehicles sprayed on the way in as well.

MR. TULK: No. In actual fact, the wash in Port

aux Basques is run by the Federal Government. It is a federal outfit; so, no, it

does not fall under my department. It is a concern that I have, to be honest

with you.

I drove to Florida with a buddy of mine some three

weeks ago - I should not be telling this, I suppose, but I am going to. I drove

to Florida with a buddy of mine some month-and-a-half ago. We got in Port aux

Basques and went and bought our ticket. The Minister of Agriculture for the

Province proceeded to go through the wash, and the guy who was supposed to be

doing the wash did not know it was the Minister of Agriculture, obviously. He

drove through scot-free. I did not get a wash, none. If you are concerned, and

my question is, and I am going to put this to the federal minister: If you are

concerned about the fact that we are bringing Newfoundland dirt and dropping it

on the mainland portion of this Province, how come the Minister of Agriculture

in this Province drove through that thing and did not get his car washed?

MR. OSBORNE: I am not so much (inaudible).

MR. TULK: So, how safe is it?

I have asked our people over the last little while

to do the research, to take a look at the whole thing again and to do whatever

they have to do to see if indeed, it is really necessary, and if it is not

really necessary, then I intend to put it to the Minister of Agriculture for

Canada whoever that happens to be at the time and who has done that research,

that we should remove it.

MR. OSBORNE: I am not so much concerned about

what is going out of the Province; it is what is coming into the Province and it

is almost insulting that, you know, it is a one-way highway, as far as having

vehicles washed is concerned.

MR. TULK: I do not know if we are running a

risk of bringing anything into the Province but I would like to know if we are

running any risk by taking anything out of the Province, and that is what I

intend to find out.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. Thank you.

CHAIR: Apparently, Elizabeth Gallagher has a

tour planned for a group of students who will be here very shortly to tour the

House of Assembly. The tour was previously scheduled before we changed the

schedule for the Committee, so I would ask the Committee whether or not they

want to take a ten- or fifteen-minute recess or, if there are no further

questions or observations or points to be made, perhaps we can just deal with

the business of the Committee now. If there are other questions that you, Roger,

or Tom might have, we can take a fifteen-minute recess and come back, or deal

with it now.

MR. FITZGERALD: I, for one, must (inaudible) if

we stop now.

CHAIR: Okay. Well, let us take a ten-minute

recess now, because they are coming through the doors.

MR. TULK: Can they wait five minutes? I think

if we suggested, they might wait five minutes, right?

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) five minutes

(inaudible).

CHAIR: The House Leader might want to convey

the message that the Committee requires another five minutes and then we will be

clued up.

MR. TULK: Okay.

CHAIR: They can then have the House for their

tour - or they can come in.

MR. TULK: Sure, we can tell them to go up and

sit in the gallery and watch us.

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister you were talking about

- before anybody comes to the gallery, somebody suggested that maybe, they

thought, the agriculture minister should have been spaded instead of sprayed.

Maybe, there was a little mix-up there.

MR. TULK: Now, that is not a nice way to talk

to your neighbour across the road! Pass all sub-heads.

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, you and I have

discussed before, the financial problems that some of the root-crop farmers are

experiencing, at least in my area, but I know it is a common problem right

across the Island. And for anybody who has not attended the Farmers' Field Day

Show in the Lethbridge area, it is held around the middle of August.

MR. TULK: On the 16th last year.

MR. FITZGERALD: The 16th last year, yes - and I

suggest you make it part of your tour of Newfoundland if you are coming by.

Because some of the vegetables that are displayed at that particular show are

certainly a credit to the farmers in that area. They are doing a wonderful job

there, they are putting out a good product and, for the most part, I think the

farmers are doing very well; but, Minister, one problem they have - and I have

been talking to several of them these last few weeks - is, they are now at a

time in which they are buying their fertilizer and this sort of thing to prepare

for the coming season, and they still have a lot of vegetables that are not

sold.

I am wondering if your department would look

seriously at allowing some kind of a funding program to be put in place to allot

funding to those farmers, at a very low interest rate, if an interest rate is

needed at all. I am not suggesting that you give them a grant, but a loan, to

help them over this time of year; something like what was done for sawmill

operators in years gone by. I think that proved to be a very successful move.

Have you considered that, and if so, what are your thoughts?

MR. TULK: Well, that is an issue that - there

is certainly nothing in place for this year. There is nothing in any of the

budgets, either in my department or the Department of Development and Rural

Renewal, `D2R2.' They are the people who now control the Farm Loan Board, and

the sawmill industry, and the whole bit when it comes to loans, operating loans,

or loans to get you over a hump. They are the people who do the loan.

I understand what the hon. gentleman is saying. The

sawmilling loans that we used to provide for people to - I think it used to go

up as high as $20,000 as the maximum - provided an operating capital for those

people when they were at their lowest in the Winter. In the case of vegetable

farmers in the Province, they are at their lowest at this time of year, because

they have vegetables left from last year that they need to sell in order to get

a cash flow to purchase seed and so on for this year.

I am prepared to discuss that with `D2R2.' I would

remind the hon. gentleman that it is very difficult these days in terms of any

government to get into providing operating loans. But this is a type - and I

know he is not asking me to give grants or to give loans that are really grants.

You are not asking me to do that.

MR. FITZGERALD: No.

MR. TULK: So I am prepared to discuss that. I

cannot do it for this year because I do not have the capabilities to do it, but

I could certainly take a look at it for future years.

MR. FITZGERALD: It would certainly be a big

help to those particular farmers, because some of them are struggling and -

MR. TULK: I know they are.

MR. FITZGERALD: - they are responsible farmers,

and they have done very well.

MR. TULK: Yes, and they have been around for -

I was going to say hundreds of years, but -

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, they have been around a

long time.

MR. TULK: They have been around for a hundred

years, some of them, particularly in the Musgravetown area.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, they have been there for a

while.

MR. TULK: I say to my next-door neighbour that

Musgravetown area, that my neighbour across the road - I will not say it.

MR. FITZGERALD: 4.1.03, on page 133, Green Plan

Administration. In the 1997-1998 Estimates the whole funding for that has been

eliminated. Then you turn the page and you go to 4.1.05, Green Plan, where all

the funding that was in place in previous years, 1996-1997 at least, is

maintained. What is the difference between that particular Green Plan and the

one - is it just the administration?

MR. TULK: I guess, Marty, you can handle this

better than I can. You can probably provide a more detailed answer. It would

seem to me that the last statement you made is a correct one, that the

administration cost of it has been eliminated. I would suspect that what we are

going to do is administer the plan with other personnel we now have.

CHAIR: We will pause now to welcome the

students from Mary Queen of the World School on Topsail Road. I would like to

welcome them to the Resource Committee hearing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

CHAIR: I would like to welcome their teachers

and parents. I am sure we will be finished very shortly, and Ms Gallagher will

take you about the House, and ensure you understand how this building works.

Today we are not actually sitting as a House would normally sit. This is a

committee that gives a chance for the elected members to question the minister

and his officials regarding their budget proposals for this year. So we will be

clued up in a few minutes. If you could bear with us, you will get your tour

shortly thereafter.

MR. FITZGERALD: One last question, Minister.

Page 139, Agricultural Development, Agricultural Planning. Agriculture Shows and

Exhibitions. It shows the total funding for this particular heading has now

disappeared, but on the total Agricultural Development it shows $10,677,500. I

do not know how I can relate that for nothing being shown in the column. I guess

my question is -

MR. TULK: If I could, just for a second. If you

add up the figures from the top of page 138 to the middle of page 139, it should

work out, unless somebody has it messed up.

WITNESS: No, no, that is right.

MR. TULK: It should work out. If you look at

Agricultural Development and so on. Now, Agricultural Development starts on page

WITNESS: Page 133.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, that is for the whole

heading.

MR. TULK: That is for the whole heading, I tell

the Member for Bonavista South. That is what that figure is.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. But getting back to the

4.7.01.

MR. TULK: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Does this mean that there are

no appropriations now for such exhibitions as the Newfoundland and Labrador

Livestock Show, the Lethbridge and area and Farmers' Field Day, this sort of

thing?

MR. TULK: We still give them a grant, though -

what is it? Marty, do you want to answer that?

MR. HOWLETT: What we have done there, Mr.

Fitzgerald, is that -

MR. TULK: The Member for Bonavista South.

MR. HOWLETT: - the Food and Livestock Show was

eliminated in last year's budget and the only category left there was $15,000

under Grants and Subsidies that go to all the other smaller affairs. So rather

than have it sit there alone in that full category, we just moved it over to

4.6.01. You will see that Grants and Subsidies went from $245,300 to $260,300.

MR. TULK: That is on page 138?

MR. FITZGERALD: $245,300 to $260,300?

MR. HOWLETT: So that will be paid out of that

subhead this year for the Fall shows.

MR. FITZGERALD: So there is still funding

available?

MR. TULK: Let me just say to the hon.

gentleman, the livestock show that used to be held here in St. John's, we used

to subsidize that in the vicinity of $40,000. That is what it cost us besides

some of our personnel; but we used to give them a grant of $40,000. I will be

frank with you, I cut it out completely, being somewhat naive last year in the

department at first. I realize the value of it. There was a discussion - I do

not mind telling you this. There was a lot of discussion about whether we should

or not but I did it.

I have had a number of representations to me since

from people in the St. John's area in particular, that they want to see this

livestock show put back in place. I have told them that we are not prepared to

get into it year after year at a cost to us of $40,000 to show off the exhibit,

but we are prepared to look at ways and means of dealing with it on a decreasing

level of funding over the next couple of years with some group who wants to get

into this, to give them time to turn it into private money, their own money. We

are prepared to sit down and look at that with them.

I think, within the next short while - there was a

lady in my office the other day whom I do not have to name - but in the next

short while there will be a meeting convened to look at ways and means of

putting back the Food and Livestock Show in St. John's, but it will be done more

or less by encouraging the community to do it.

MR. FITZGERALD: One other comment, and that is

on the watershed management committees that are trying to get put in place to

look after watersheds, in particular rivers, and manage them. Minister, one word

of advice, I suppose: I think you should do a lot more consultation with the

people out there who use those rivers and streams before you make any firm

decisions on allowing some of those particular interest groups to control the

watersheds and the inland waters. That is it for me.

MR. TULK: Yes. Let me just make a quick

comment, that those things are done on a river basis. There is no blanket policy

that exists for Newfoundland. We do them, and one of the things that is required

is that they consult with local residents. The two, I think, that have been most

successful at it, is in my own region, a group called the GRMA and the Indian

Bay Ecological Association. They have been very, very good at doing consultation

with all the interest groups in the area. Let me assure the hon. gentleman, and

anybody in Newfoundland who wants to hear it, that certainly not under this

Administration will you see - and that is the big fear out there - that you will

see privatization of rivers. That will not happen. That is where we stop short.

CHAIR: Thank you. Roger, are there any other

comments or questions? I would ask for a motion to accept the Estimates without

amendment.

MR. WOODFORD: I would like to move the adoption

of the heads from 1.1.01 to 4.7.01 inclusive.

MR. TULK: You included my salary there, did

you?

MR. WOODFORD: Your salary is included in that,

Minister.

MR. FITZGERALD: No increase.

MR. WOODFORD: No increase. 1.1.01 to 4.7.01,

inclusive and I would also like to move the adoption of the totals, that the

totals will carry.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.7.01, carried.

On motion, Department of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Minister, thank you and I want to thank

your officials for showing up and answering the questions and the comments that

were made to you. As usual, you went beyond the normal practice of just giving a

few titbits of information and, indeed, gave extensive information and gave us

an holistic view and vision of the department with respect to forestry and

agrifoods, and we very much appreciate that.

Given that this is a final meeting of the Resource

Committee for the Estimates for this particular fiscal year, we thank the

members for their indulgence, for their time and their work on the Committee. I

today will report to the House and initiate the concurrence motion.

MR. WOODFORD: Motion to adjourn.

MR. TULK: Before you adjourn, Mr. Chairman, let

me just say that I have enjoyed the morning. It has been a good experience to

tell members of the House what it is we are trying to do. Let me also say that

sometime within the next week I would ask the Chairman if he could arrange so

that we might sit down over a bit of grub with the Committee.

CHAIR: I think we have unanimous consent on

that, Minister - I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Motion to adjourn, Mr. Woodford.

The Committee adjourned sine die.