British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, May 12, 2004

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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

5th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, May 12, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Volume 25, Number 10 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 5TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ...............................................................................................................Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Deputy Premier and Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................ Hon. Christy Clark Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries..................................................................................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations..................................................................................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services ................................................................................................ Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of State for Women's and Seniors' Services................................................................................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Energy and Mines...............................................................................................................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining...................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Finance.........................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests................................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Michael de Jong Minister of State for Forestry Operations.................................................................................................................................. Hon. Roger Harris Minister of Health Services.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health and Addiction Services ....................................................................................................Hon.

Susan Brice Minister of Human Resources........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Management Services ............................................................................................................................................. Hon. Joyce Murray Minister of Provincial Revenue.................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...................................................................................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour......................................................................................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Small Business and Economic Development ...............................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Sustainable Resource Management ....................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Resort Development............................................................................................................................... Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection ............................................................................................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition .......................................................................................................................................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole..............................................................................................................................................

Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ........................................................................................................................................... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...............................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hans ard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 74; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 3 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L)............................................................... Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L)....................................................................................North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ..............................................................................East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................... Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)..........................................

Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L) ........................................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Brenzinger, Elayne (Ind. L)...........................................................Surrey-Whalley Brice, Hon. Susan (L)...................................................................... Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L) ................................................. Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Gulzar S. (L).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Clark, Hon.

Christy (L) ....................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ................................................................................Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon. Gary (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon.

Kevin (L) ............................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Greg (L) ............................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)..............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Hon.

Roger (L) ................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L) ........................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) .....................................................................................

Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L).............................................................. Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L) ................................................................ Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L).................................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ............................................................. Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) .................................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L).........................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................. Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ............................................................ Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) ..............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ..................................................................................... Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L).............................................................

New Westminster Nebbeling, Ted (L)..................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L) ...................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .......................................................

Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L).....................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Orr, Sheila (L) .............................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)......................................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ...........................................................

Richmond-Steveston Reid, Judith (L)....................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).......................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L) ..............................................

West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Lynn (L).................................................................................... Langley Stewart, Ken (L)........................................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L)........................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L)..................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)..................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L)...................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).......................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)..............................................................................Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)..............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ........................................................................

Gillian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds.............................................................................. Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North..................................................................................... John Wilson Cariboo South........................................................................................Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ................................................................................ Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke .....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .........................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Delta North.............................................................................................Reni Masi Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .....................................................................................Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin .................................................................... Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon.

Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson.......................................................... Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .................................................................John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ...................................................................Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley........................................................................................... Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca.......................................................................

Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................... Ken Stewart Nanaimo .............................................................................................Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville..............................................................................Judith Reid Nelson-Creston......................................................................... Blair F.

Suffredine New Westminster .................................................................... Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast .......................................................................................... Bill Belsey North Island.......................................................................................... Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale .................................................... Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour ..............................................................

Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain......................................................Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood ...........................................................Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast............................................................Harold Long Prince George North .........................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .................................................................

Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre ...................................................................Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South............................................................................. Hon. Susan Brice Shuswap ................................................................................

Hon. George Abbott Skeena .......................................................................................Hon. Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ..................................................................................Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge............................................................ Gulzar S.

Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ........................................................................ Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock.......................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview..................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Vancouver-Fraserview .....................................................................

Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings......................................................................... Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................... Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway............................................................................ Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara...................................................................... Val J. Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ...............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.....................................................................................Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary ......................................................Hon. Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................

Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .....................................................................................Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Wednesday, May 12, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ........................................................... 11043 Settlement for victims of abuse at Jericho Hill School Hon. G. Campbell J.

MacPhail Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 11043 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 11044 Parks and Protected Areas Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 50) Hon. B. Barisoff Wildlife Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 51) Hon. B. Barisoff Electoral Reform Referendum Act (Bill 52) Hon. G. Plant International Financial Activity Act (Bill 53) Hon. G.

Collins Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 11046 Fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome awareness J. MacPhail Adoption of children in B.C. W. McMahon Fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome awareness J. Nuraney Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 11047 Release of audit involving Doug Walls J. MacPhail Hon. G. Collins J. Kwan Hon.

C. Clark Changes to B.C. College of Teachers P. Nettleton Hon. T. Christensen Access to grazing lands W. Cobb Hon. M. de Jong Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................. 11050 Environmental Appeal Board, annual report, 2002-03 Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 11050 Supplementary Estimates: Ministry of Health Services Hon. C. Hansen J.

MacPhail Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 11056 Ministerial Accountability Bases Act, 2004-2005 (Bill 49) Hon. G. Collins Recommittal of Bills........................................................................................................... .................................................... 11056 Cremation, Interment and Funeral Services Act (Bill 3) Hon. R. Coleman

Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 11056 Cremation, Interment and Funeral Services Act (Bill 3) Hon. R. Coleman J.

MacPhail Reporting of Bills ............................................................................................................. ...................................................... 11057 Cremation, Interment and Funeral Services Act (Bill 3) Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................... ................................................... 11057 Cremation, Interment and Funeral Services Act (Bill 3) Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 11057 Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 34) L.

Mayencourt Hon. R. Thorpe B.

Kerr Reporting of Bills ............................................................................................................. ...................................................... 11062 Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 34) Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................... ................................................... 11062 Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 34) Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 11062 Vital Statistics Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 43) Hon.

C. Hansen B. Suffredine Hon. C. Hansen Correction Act (Bill 44) Hon. R. Coleman J. Kwan B. Suffredine Hon. R.

Coleman Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 11074 Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 36) Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 11074 Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 36)

11043 WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 The House met at 2:05 p.m. Prayers. Tributes SETTLEMENT FOR VICTIMS OF ABUSE AT JERICHO HILL SCHOOL Hon. G. Campbell: It's an honour to rise today to pay tribute to some special guests joining us in this House. Last month the province concluded a settle- ment that we hope will provide closure and healing for victims of abuse at Jericho Hill School. We are joined today by eight members of the negotiating committee that worked so hard on behalf of the class members in that settlement. To all of them I say welcome. Welcome to our assembly. Welcome to our chamber.

Words fail us in attempting to describe the hurt that they and their families have experienced. The abuse of students at Jericho Hill never should have occurred. There is no excuse or justification for what happened. The victims bear no responsibility for events over which they had no control. I know I speak for all mem- bers of this House in saying how deeply we regret that the victims were exposed to these terrible experiences. We have a duty as a government, as a society, to ensure the well-being of children in our care. We have a re- sponsibility to do better. I want our guests to know this important thing.

Because of your courage, because of your leadership, we can learn from the mistakes of the past, and we will learn from those mistakes. We can work together to heal the hurt, to bring hope and renewal for victims and their families, and we can do everything in our power to try to ensure that it never happens again. Each of you has made that possible. The settlement is a testament to your courage, to your spirit, to your strength and to your determination. On behalf of all British Columbians, I want to say thank you to each of you for what you have done to start this healing process and to bring healing about.

To Leanne Rumley: thank you. To Sharon Rumley: thank you. To Robert Gordon: thank you. To Mark Dunn: thank you. To Ravi Coughlan: thank you. To Susan Birley: thank you. To Robin Eldridge: thank you. To Douglas Eldridge: thank you. To all of you, for your leadership and for your strength of spirit: thank you. [1410] J. MacPhail: I'm sure I speak for all of us who are not members of the government in joining with the Premier in expressing our si ncere regret and apologiz- ing for the terrible journey upon which so many were forced to enter.

I do join, along with my colleagues, to express hope that there is recovery. However, some- times there cannot be any recovery, and all we can hope for is that the path is cleared enough that people can continue through life in a way that allows for much clearing away of the pain and promotes healing — un- derstanding that that may never occur. W e h a v e b e e n a t t h i s p r o c e s s — both the victims and the perpetrators, and those of us who were re- sponsible for the governance of this — for decades now.

All I can hope is that those who were deeply af- fected and harmed and injured by this can complete the rest of their lives with some solace. Introductions by Members D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 28 special grade 5 students visi ting from Pacific Academy in my riding of Surrey-Tynehead. Joining them is their teacher, Ms. Sharon Douglas, as well as several parents and volunteers who have take n time out of their busy schedules to accompany these students. Would the House please make them very welcome. Hon. B.

Barisoff: In the gallery today is one of my staff from the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protec- tion, Robin Platts. Would the House please make him welcome. M. Hunter: It's my pleasure to announce in the gal- lery today a couple of visitors from the beautiful city of Nanaimo. I would like the House to welcome Joy Cam- eron and Julia Saurazas, who is the director of the MBA program at Malaspina University College and who came to Nanaimo from Dubai in February of this year. That's how much we're attrac ting people back to B.C., back to Vancouver Island. Please help me welcome these folks. Hon. K.

Falcon: It's my pleasure today to welcome in the House Lynne Cyr and Betty Ann Cyr, who are joining us today. Betty Ann is joining us from Camp- bell River. She is the mother of my ministerial assistant, Dave Cyr, and Lynne is his wife. On behalf of Dave, I want to thank Lynne for her patience on the many late evenings I am stealing her husband. I appreciate it. Would the House please make them welcome. J. MacPhail: I would like to welcome to the House today a very special guest who will probably be the next MLA for Surrey–Panorama Ridge, Mr. Jagrup Brar.

He was nominated last week and will carry the NDP banner in the upcoming by-election, which we are all anxious to get going on. I know that the by- election is, of course, dependent on the Premier, but Jagrup is already campaigning. Mr. Brar is the executive director of the Self- Employment and Entrepreneur Development Society — deep roots in Surrey. He is working for an organiza- tion that helps people launch small business ventures. Please make Jagrup Brar very welcome. V.

Roddick: After an excellent, fun lunch in the legislative dining room, a group of exceptional young people are in the gallery today, who are here to receive

11044 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 various levels of the Duke of Edinburgh special needs awards at Government House. Accompanied by Judith Watt and also accompanied by the head of the B.C. and Yukon division and one volunteer from Scotland are Alex Chartrand, 14, and Ch ristina Chamberlain, 23, from Tsawwassen; Christopher Buckland, 23, from Vancouver; and all the way from Telkwa in the riding of my colleague from Bulkley Valley–Stikine are Lisa Beatty, 24, and Kathy Mortenson, 27. Will the House please make them very welcome. [1415] Hon. I.

Chong: Today visiting from my constitu- e n c y o f O a k B a y – G o r d o n H e a d i s a v e r y s p e c i a l l a d y , Margaret Rolston. On Monday Mrs. Rolston celebrated her eightieth birthday, and she represents just one of the many young and active seniors in my riding. Mrs. Rolston has served on several boards, such as the Lodge at Broadmead and Victoria's Single Parent Re- source Centre, and she is al so the grandmother of the ministerial assistant for the Minister of Forests. Would the House please make her very welcome. Mr.

Speaker: Hon. members, I would like to bring to your attention 25 public servants seated in the galler- ies who are participating in a full-day parliamentary procedure workshop. This Le gislative Assembly work- shop provides a firsthand opportunity for the public service to gain a greater understanding of the relation- ship between the work of their ministries and how their work affects the Legislature. Would you please make them welcome. Introduction and First Reading of Bills PARKS AND PROTECTED AREAS STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 Hon. B.

Barisoff presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Parks and Protected Areas Statutes Amendment Act, 2004. Hon. B. Barisoff: I move Bill 50 be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. B. Barisoff: I am pleased to introduce a bill that makes amendments to bo th the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act and the Park Act. These amend- ments continue our government's ongoing work to- ward expanding British Columbia's parks and pro- tected areas system and improving its management.

Last September the Premier committed to the UBCM that before designating any new provincial parks, we would deal directly with local councils and the re- gional districts to see what they want. Some local governments said that adding new parks at this time would create a level of uncertainty. One example is Okanagan-S imilkameen regional dis- trict, which may be home to B.C.'s next national park. The regional district has asked us to wait until we know how this proposed national park is going to af- fect their communities before designating any new provincial parks in that area.

We take the concerns of our local government seriously. While we're expanding our local park system significantly, where there are local concerns, we have elected to wait. Today we make these amendments with the sup- port of our communities. Amendments to the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act add more than 150,000 hectares to British Columbia's protected area system — an area 13 times the size of the city of Vancouver — by establishing 28 new class A parks and one ecological reserve and by making additi ons to four existing eco- logical reserves and 31 class A parks.

This will mean more opportunities for visitors and more opportunities for B.C. communities. This bill also provides map boundaries for a number of existing parks and ecolog ical reserves — a more accurate, un- derstandable and practical system than written de- scriptions previously used . The amendments to the Park Act allow the minister to enter into collaborative agreements. The Premier has committed to opening our parks to people. Parks benefit small business and encourage new investment, recreation and tourism, and they help diversify local economies.

We're bring- ing out our best in B.C. by preserving these special areas. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 50 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. WILDLIFE AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 Hon. B. Barisoff presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Wild- life Amendment Act, 2004. Hon. B. Barisoff: I move Bill 51 be introduced and read a first time now. [1420] Motion approved. Hon. B.

Barisoff: This makes amendments to the Wildlife Act to enhance the ability of the government to designate and protect specie s that are at risk in Brit- ish Columbia. The amendments will provide the au- thority to the Lieutenant-G overnor-in-Council to list and protect any species or population of animal, bird, fish, plant or other species as require additional protec- tion and management in British Columbia. These amendments — combined with our exist- ing Wildlife Act, our world-renowned parks and protected-area systems, land use plans, environmental assessment processes and partnerships with industry

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11045 and conservation stakeholders — will provide greater certainty regarding the protection and recovery of spe- cies in B.C. These amendments reinforc e the province's author- ity with regards to species and give B.C. the tools to approach the protection and recovery of species in a way that meets the specific needs. They will help the province to protect its interest as we work with the federal government as it implements its respective leg- islation.

In developing and implem enting this approach, the province will determine its own principles and stan- dards — a solution made in British Columbia for Brit- ish Columbians — defend its jurisdiction, its right to determine its own management approach, and make species management decisions with the understanding of the best available science and full consideration of socioeconomic implications. The best way to protect B.C. interests is to make sure we have B.C. legislation to provide certainty for our species and certainty fo r our landowners.

We need to protect B.C.'s wildlife resources, but we must also protect B.C.'s families and the jobs they rely on. I move the bill be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 51 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. ELECTORAL REFORM REFERENDUM ACT Hon. G. Plant presented a message from His Hon- our the Administrator: a bill intituled Electoral Reform Referendum Act. Hon. G.

Plant: I m o v e t h a t t h e b i l l b e i n t r o d u c e d and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. G. Plant: I am pleased to introduce Bill 52. This bill demonstrates gove rnment's continuing com- mitment to an independent and transparent process for examining our electoral syst em. Specifically, the bill gives legislative authority for a referendum on a new electoral model that may be required following the report of the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform.

If the Citizens' Assembly recommends a new electoral model, a referendum on the proposed new model will occur in May 2005 in conjunction with the next provin- cial general election. The bill confirms that if such a referendum occurs, the Referendum Act will apply with certain exceptions. The primary exception concerns the level of voter ap- proval necessary for the refe rendum result to be con- sidered binding.

The government last year determined and announced that because of the fundamentally im- portant nature of our voting system, the referendum result must show that a substantial majority of the province's voters approve of the new model. Therefore, the approval threshold is 60 percent or greater of the popular vote provincewide, and a simply majority in at least 48 of the province's 79 electoral districts — 60 percent of the electoral districts. These provisions will help to ensure that there is significant voter support for the proposed new model in different regions of the province.

The bill also provides that if a new model is ap- proved, the government will be required to make the necessary legislative changes to the Election Act so that the new model is in place in time for the May 2009 general election, consistent with the commitments that we have made. This provision is necessary to ensure that there will be adequate time to make the substantial amendments to the Election Act that would be required if the referendum succeeds. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 52 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL ACTIVITY ACT H o n . G . C o l l i n s p r e s e n t e d a m e s s a g e f r o m H i s Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled International Financial Activity Act. Hon. G. Collins: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. [1425] Hon. G.

Collins: Bill 53 implements the Interna- tional Financial Activity Act effective September 1, 2004, and at the same time repeals the existing Interna- tional Financial Business (Tax Refund) Act and the International Financial Business Act.

As announced in Budget 2004, this new legislation enhances the competitiveness of British Columbia's international financial sector by expanding the types of corporations that are eligible to register under the act, expanding the list of financial activities that qualify under the act to include six new activities and extend- ing the program to all areas of the province, which will allow registered corporations to locate anywhere in British Columbia.

The list of new financial activities that will qualify under the act effective September 1 of this year in- cludes certain treasury functions on behalf of non- residents, back-office operations as well as backup of- fice operations on behalf of non-residents, the distribu- tion of film and television rights outside of Canada, expansion of the range of eligible foreign exchange activities and import letters of credit. The tax refund for specialists will remain in place and will be extended

11046 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 to five years from two years. At the same time, the maximum refund amount will be reduced to 75 percent of B.C. income tax payable. Effective January 1, 2005, the employee refund un- der the international financial business program will be eliminated. This is because British Columbia's personal income tax rates are now competitive with other juris- dictions.

These changes to British Columbia's international business financial legislation will attract new financial business to British Columbia, encourage the develop- ment of new international financial activities such as film and television distribution, and create new em- ployment opportunities and well-paid, highly skilled jobs. Bill 53 sets the stage for renewed growth in British Columbia's international financial sector and reflects our commitment to increase competitiveness and revi- talize the economy.

I move the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 53 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) FIBROMYALGIA AND CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME AWARENESS J. MacPhail: Today I rise in the House to recognize May 12 as Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syn- drome Awareness Day. Imagine having a chronic disorder for which the causes are not known and for which there is no cure. This is the reality for thos e who suffer from fibromyal- gia and chronic fatigue syndrome. Fibromyalgia, or FM, is a chronic disorder ch aracterized by widespread musculoskeletal pain, fatigue and multiple tender points. Chronic fatigue syndrome, or CFS, is a serious and complex illness that affects many body systems.

The central characteristic of CFS is a debilitating patho- logical exhaustion not reversed by rest, no matter how much rest one has. These disorders have devastating impacts on peo- ple's lives, people's professions and their families. Moreover, these disorders are surrounded by miscon- ceptions. For example, just as multiple sclerosis was labelled as hysterical paralysis for years before people fully understood the disorder, both FM and CFS suffer from public misunderstanding.

Thankfully, Canada is at the international forefront of attaining clinical defini- tions and protocol for treati ng these disorders in order to provide a standard for diagnosis, treatment and re- search. Understanding these disorders begins with raising public awareness. Public awareness leads to calls for action. The reality of livin g with chronic pain means that not only are patients impacted, but so are families and our broader communities.

With visionary support from health professionals, patients and researchers, I hope that we can work towards finding effective treatments for those who su ffer from fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome. ADOPTION OF CHILDREN IN B.C. W. McMahon: On Monday my colleague from Surrey–Green Timbers stood in this House and spoke about what it was like to have two adopted daugh- ters. Her statement struck a very personal chord with me. It made me reflect on my own childhood and upbringing, as I was adopted when I was just 11 days old. It made me remember how wonderful it was to be raised in a strong family environment.

My parents, like parents throughout British Columbia, taught me values and how to respect and be kind to others. They taught me the importance of a good education and a strong work ethic. They taught me about the importance of stability in a child's life and the opportunities that we can realize as adults if our parents point us in the right direction. [1430] However, there is also an important message that British Columbians need to hear. Right now there are approximately 1,000 children in our province waiting for a permanent home. That's 1,000 children who don't have a stable home.

The best-case scenario for these children — to learn the values of a good education, a strong work ethic, how to be kind to others and how to make the most of the opportunities given to them — is to have a permanent family. This by no means takes away from the thousands of foster parents who do a terrific job in our province . However, children who move from home to home are missing the consistent love, nurturing and support that will help them through the rest of their lives. Saturday is International Family Day.

There is no easy road of life for anyone to travel, but having a fam- ily forever can make a world of difference not only in childhood but as we become adults and raise our own families. Today I am calling on British Columbians who are in a position to have a family, whether you have your own biological children or no t, to consider adoption. You can get more information by calling 1-877- ADOPT-07. Please remember there are kids who can't wait to have a family. FIBROMYALGIA AND CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME AWARENESS J.

Nuraney: It is not very often that I would con- sider standing in this House and echoing the senti- ments of the Leader of the Opposition, but today I do stand up in recognition of May 12, which is the day that Canadians and people around the globe gather to raise awareness about the devastating effects of chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11047 It is estimated that at least 5 percent of Canadians are affected by this ailment. To date, there is no known cure or cause of these diseases. Among those is Rosie, a for- mer drug and alcohol counsellor, who had a very active lifestyle. She was raising a family, she had an active life- style, and she even drove 30 miles a day to get to work. Unfortunately, things would take an unpleasant turn. She recently wrote me a letter describing her terrible and unexpected fight with chronic fatigue syndrome.

In her letter she writes: "Going from that to not be- ing able to get out of bed for days at a time was a hor- rible shock and an adjustment . I think it is very, very important for people who are newly diagnosed, along with their families and their employers, to become educated, because this disease affects not only the per- son who has it but all those people closest to them." I can only begin to imagine her frustration and dis- appointment.

Fortunately for both her and a friend that I know, they've been able to find some relief from their symptoms through alternative treatment methods such as aromatherapy, acupuncture, massage, yoga and meditation. As Rosie said to me in her letter, it is cru- cial that we begin to open our minds to these non- traditional healing methods as tools that can work in tandem with conventional medical science. I do hope and pray that at some point in time we will find the cure and realize the cause of these devas- tating diseases. Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements.

Oral Questions RELEASE OF AUDIT INVOLVING DOUG WALLS J. MacPhail: This afternoon British Columbians will be treated to the

summary of the findings of an audit into the Doug Walls fiasco. The public, families and those who provide community living services are con- cerned that they will get only selected details approved by the Premier and his spin doctors — a whitewash. Let me remind the House what this scandal is about. The Premier's friend, political supporter and relative got a six-figure sala ry from the B.C. Liberals with no competition, no notice, no announcement and no scrutiny. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. members, order. Let us hear the question. J.

MacPhail: He also got a $400,000 government loan written off. To the Deputy Premier: this afternoon, will she do the right thing an d release the entire audit to the public, not just a spinned-up version of it? [1435] Hon. G. Collins: Given the

summary of the mem- ber opposite, you would think there was no need to do the audit, because she seems to know all the facts. The reality is that the entire audit will be released this af- ternoon, except for those small sections that needed to be severed relative to third-party statutory require- ments under the Freedom of Information Act. I hope the member reads it, checks her facts and corrects many of the statements that she's made in the House over the last number of months. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Leader of the Opposition has a further ques- tion. J.

MacPhail: Here's what happened, Mr. Speaker. Not only did Mr. Walls get a six…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. J. MacPhail: This is already on the public record. Not only did Mr. Walls ge t a six-figure salary, he was also the beneficiary of B.C. Liberal government loan write-offs totalling at least $400,000. We'll find out how that loan was written off. Not only is Mr. Walls a friend, supporter and relative of the Premier, but he also has close ties to other members of the B.C.

Liberal cabinet, including the former Minister of Children and Family Development and the Minister of Advanced Education — all admitted on the record by Mr. Walls. It's a very cozy relationship, a very serious scandal. To the Deputy Premier: can she guarantee that every aspect of the audit will be released in full with no spin whatsoever? Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G. Collins: I think I already answered the member's questions, probably more fully than she would have liked.

The reality is that the Premier made a commitment some months ago that the entire audit would be available through freedom of information. Government has done that. The freedom-of- information coordinators have gone through the audit to ensure that any release is compliant with the act. There are some third-party requirements under the legislation that need to be complied with. I think the member will find that she's very pleased with…. Well, she may not be very pleased with the report, but she'll be pleased to know that virtually all of it will be made public this afternoon.

Certainly, pending a request by government or a response from those people who have personal protection privacy rights under the act, if we

11048 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 hear from them to say those additional details can be released, those will be released as well. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. The Leader of the Opposition has a further sup- plementary. J. MacPhail: We welcome that, Mr. Speaker. We welcome that commitment. It's a brand-new commit- ment, and we welcome it — absolutely. The Premier said he was going to release the conclusions. Now he's releasing the whole audit, and we…. Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Hon. members, the Leader of the Op- position has the floor. J. MacPhail: We'll let the Premier's words stand on their own, Attorney General — absolutely. In July 2002 the Minister of Children and Family Development was told that there were serious concerns related to Mr. Walls's activi ties in the ministry. The minister did nothing. He ha n d e d i t o f f t o s t a f f a n d turned a blind eye to its contents. Six months later, in January 2003, Mr. Walls was appointed to act as CEO of the interim authority on community living, a fact that the minister wouldn't own up to in the House three months later.

Can the Deputy Premier and the Premier guarantee that every single recommendation of the audit… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Let us hear the ques- tion. J. MacPhail: …will be delivered by this govern- ment as quickly as possible? Hon. G. Collins: The fact of the matter is that the Premier's words are on the re cord about the release of the report. Interjection. Hon. G. Collins: Part of the reason why the mem- ber gets her facts wrong is because she never listens when she asks a question. Sh e never listens to the an- swer. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G.

Collins: The fact is that the report will be released. I think the member will find that not only will we commit to implementing all the recommendations, she may find that the vast majority of them are already in place. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. Kwan: We certainly will ensure that the Premier's words stand, as do the words of the Deputy Premier. We can certainly look to the record to see what they said about the release of the report. [1440] Up until the B.C. Libera ls took power, Mr. Walls was helping non-profits get Internet access. Soon after the election was over, Mr.

Walls was invited into the Premier's office and given enormous influence over the Minister of Children and Family Development. Finaliz- ing plans for community living and taking control… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Mem- bers on the government side of the House, please ex- tend the member the courtesy of listening to the ques- tion. J. Kwan: …of a $600 million budget long before the core review was complete, Mr. Walls was also immedi- ately handed $400,000 in taxpayers' money through a loan write-off. Also from the government, a special prosecutor was initiated to review this matter.

Will the Deputy Premier assure British Columbians that the document the government releases today will explain how a friend and relative of the Premier was given control over $600 million in terms of budget for the ministry and handed a $400 million loan write-off as soon as the Liberals took office? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. C. Clark: The report will be released this af- ternoon. The member will be able to have her questions answered as soon as it's re leased. In response to the other questions the member asked, those have been asked and answered.

Perhaps she wants to move on to plan B for question period. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Member for Vancouver– Mount Pleasant has a further question. J. Kwan: The Deputy Premier is correct insofar as this. Questions were asked of her during the estimates process, but no answers were forthcoming from the

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11049 Deputy Premier. The Minist er of Children and Family Development is…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. Kwan: The Ministry of Children and Family De- velopment is in chaos, than ks to the B.C. Liberal gov- ernment mismanagement and special deals for a friend and relative of the Premier. That's the bottom line in the scandal. The government took money from kids at risk and handed that money over to Liberal friends. The Premier won't answer qu estions, and the Deputy Premier won't answer questions. You know what? When the government releases….

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Your colleague is inter- rupting your question. We'll just wait a moment, and you can continue, please. Now it's time for the ques- tion. J. Kwan: Yes. I was interrupted by many members of the House. When the Premier releases his version of the audit this afternoon, will he use the opportunity to apologize to British Columbians for this gross mismanagement of tax dollars that were supposed to help kids and the developmentally disabled but ended up padding the pockets of Liberal insiders?

Will the Deputy Premier also release all correspondence and e-mails between officials… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. J. Kwan: …and his office and Mr. Walls? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. C. Clark: The member will see the report this afternoon. I suspect that she will have an opportunity to apologize for all of the misinformation she's put on the record.

As long as we ar e standing here and talking about the opportunity to apologize, this member might want to start taking the opportunity to offer apologies for all of the misrepresentation — all of the facts that she puts on the table that are proven to be wrong again and again and again. Just fo r starters is her suggestion that the ministry is in chaos. For example, we have doubled the number of adop- tions that have happened in British Columbia. We have cut court wait times through alternative dispute resolu- tion.

We have, for the first time, made it possible to place children with extended families instead of taking them from their homes where they're at risk. We have also made possible the 15 percent drop in the number of children that are coming into the care of the minis- try. And the numbers on recruitment and retention for our staff in this ministry are excellent. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. C. Clark: We are recruiting and retaining more staff than we have for a long time in British Co- lumbia. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Thank you. Hon. C.

Clark: So when the member stands up and makes these statements, she will very soon, I'm sure, have the chance to retract them… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Thank you. [1445] Hon. C. Clark: …and offer her apology. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. members, order, please, so we may continue with question period. CHANGES TO B.C. COLLEGE OF TEACHERS P. Nettleton: On December 10, 2003, the former Education minister promised to restore democratic governance to the College of Teachers.

More than four months later, elections have not taken place, and the politically appointed councillors continue making fundamental changes to the bylaws that govern the teaching profession. My question is to the Minister of Education. Why has the current minister not lived up to the democratic promise of his predecessor and dismissed the political appointees on the college council? Hon. T. Christensen: This government committed to putting in place a democratically elected College of Teachers, and that's exactly what we intend to do. Mr. Speaker: Prince George–Omineca has a sup- plementary question. P.

Nettleton: Yes, I do. When might those elections take place, and will these legitimate representatives of the profession have the mandate to review and reject, if necessary, the sweeping bylaw changes imposed by the appointed councillors?

11050 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 Hon. T. Christensen: The member will see the leg- islation at the same time as the rest of the House. Cer- tainly, as I said, it's our intent to follow through on the commitment the government made in December. The newly elected college council will have the opportunity to act as a college council, just like any past one. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. ACCESS TO GRAZING LANDS W. Cobb: My question is to the Minister of Forests. As we all know, drought and forest fires have hit my region very hard over the last year.

This summer is gear- ing up to be as dry as last, and if we don't get some rain soon, we could be in another crisis. Those events have my ranchers faced with shortages of hay and grazing for their cattle. Because of the BS E, they couldn't ship their cows and had to feed them over the winter, which exac- erbated the problem. Last September the Premier re- quested that the criteria be relaxed to accommodate the ranchers. I ask the Minister of Forests if he could please tell my constituents: is there anything being done to ex- pand access to grazing lands for the B.C. ranchers? Hon.

M. de Jong: To the member: he's right. Be- tween droughts, fire and BSE, it's been a pretty tough year for the ranching commu nities. District managers are exercising their maximu m jurisdiction within the bounds of the legislation, their discretionary authority, to get cattle out onto rangeland at the very earliest pos- sible moment. It's a balancing act. The member and his ranching constituents will know that causing damage or over- grazing to lands can take upwards of ten years to cor- rect, so there is a balancing act involved. We're doing some little things. We're lending water troughs to ranchers.

We're doing some larger things, longer-term things, and those are the negotiations taking place now, discussions with the Cattlemen's Association, aimed at expanding the amount of land available for range use in the future. [End of question period.] Tabling Documents Hon. B. Barisoff: I beg leave to present the 2002-03 annual report of the Environmental Appeal Board. Leave granted. Orders of the Day Supplementary Estimates Hon. G. Collins presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Gov ernor: supplementary es- timates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2005. Hon. G.

Collins moved that the said message and the estimates accompanying the same be referred to Committee of Supply. [1450] J. MacPhail: Maybe we could have the bill distrib- uted and have a recess, Mr. Speaker. Hon. G. Collins: I think there's a motion on the floor, but I'm prepared once we're in committee to have the House recess. Mr. Speaker: The motion is that we approve the motion and the message and that the supplementary estimates accompanying the message be referred to a Committee of Supply. Motion approved. Hon. G.

Collins: I call Committee of Supply and also move that the House stand recessed for 15 minutes to give the opposition and members, as well, a chance to look at the supplemental estimate. Mr. Speaker: So ordered. The House recessed from 2:51 p.m. to 3:08 p.m. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 3:09 p.m. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH SERVICES On vote 25(S): ministry operations, $147,986,000. Hon. C.

Hansen: By way of a few very brief open- ing comments about the suppl emental estimate that's before us today, these supplementary estimates reflect British Columbians' share of the incremental federal funding for health care which flows from the first min- isters' accord on health care renewal and specifically the announcements that were made on January 30 of this year by the federal government.

These supplemen- tary estimates also reflect B.C.'s share of the new 2004 public health and immunization trust, which was also announced by the federal government earlier this year. [1510] When the Ministry of Health Services budget was proposed earlier this spring , government expected to receive additional federal funding at that time. How- ever, we did not include thes e funds in our budget at that time because the federal government had not yet confirmed details about the health accord funding and exactly how it would flow to the various jurisdictions.

The Ministry of Finance anno unced at that time that once details were known, these funds would be added

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11051 to the health budget. We now know that B.C.'s share of the federal funding that was announced at that time is $130,961,000 for the fiscal year we're currently in. In addition, this year we will receive $17,025,000 from the public health and immunization trust. These supplemental estimates follow through on this government's commitment to add all of the incre- mental federal funds to the Health Services budget.

Specifically, as members will note in the supplemental estimates that were circulated in the chamber moments ago, all of these moneys will be allocated to the line item in the budget referred to as the regional health sector, and these moneys will go primarily to home care and critical care areas. All of this new money that flows into this particular sector will go to improving direct patient care and the health of British Columbi- ans. Our health care system is dedicated to providing quality health care services to citizens in our province.

There are a wide range of pressures which we will con- tinue to see impact on our health care system now and into the future. These addi tional funds are not the panacea to all of the health challenges that we are fac- ing in this province. Clearly, the health sector is one that has the ability to consume billions of dollars, and while these additional millions of dollars will help, it certainly does not alleviate all of the pressures that we're facing. But it will mean that more patients will be able to get access to surgeries.

It means that more sen- iors will get the supports they need in the communities where they live. It means that children will get better access to vaccines to keep them healthy and to prevent them from getting ill in the future. More federal mon- eys are welcome. I would also like to say in closing that I think all of the provinces and territories recognize that more is needed in terms of the fede ral government's role as a funding partner in health ca re across Canada.

The one thing that concerns me specifically about this particular allocation of moneys that is before us is that it has not been annualized by the federal government. In the case of the latest increment to the health accord funding, it's the $2 billion allocated on a per-capita basis to all prov- inces notionally over a three-year period. But in fact, one of those years has already passed us, so we're now into a two-year frame in which those additional health moneys will be spent.

B.C.'s share of that is approxi- mately $260 million, which di vided into the two years will allow us to allocate about $130 million this year and $130 million in the subs equent year. The problem with that particular funding is that we do not have certainty that there will be any ongoing funding vis-à- vis that particular envelope. The other moneys I mentioned are from the public health and immunization trust. Again, this money will be well received and will be put to some very impor- tant purposes, but that again is to be designated over a three-year period.

At the end of the three years we do not have any certainty that this funding will continue, which makes great difficulty in trying to plan for long- term stability and certainty. We will continue to work with the federal govern- ment and to encourage them not only to increase their share of federal dollars towards the 25 percent that was proposed by the Romanow report, but also so that we have certainty with regard to long-term and stable funding for the province. J. MacPhail: What a difference a government makes. Now it's that the federal government isn't giv- ing enough money and that it's not stable funding.

That's certainly different than what the Premier was s a y i n g j u s t a c o u p l e o f m o n t h s a g o . T h e P r e m i e r , i n fact, said at a Premiers' conference on this very topic that it's not about the funding; it's about delivering health care in a different fashion. At the same time, of course, he was saying that, the Minister of Health Ser- vices was saying: "It's about the money. We need more money." [1515] Of course, this is a new mantra for the B.C. Liberal Party. Before they were in government their mantra was, "We don't need more money.

It's about the in- competence of the health care system. It's about the government of that day not being able to deliver the services in a cost-effective way," etc. Now it's about the money when this government takes over. It is also about the money even though they're slashing health care workers' wages, slashing it for the very people who deliver the patient care and the direct services. Those wages are being slashed. But, oh, this government needs more money.

Also, I find it interesting that this minister is stand- ing up and saying that this province is committed to delivering every single dollar to direct health care. Well, duh. That's required under the health accord. That's the legal requiremen t by the federal govern- ment. The federal government says: "We're going to give you $130 million, and you have to put it into pa- tient care." That's what the accord says. Well, aren't we supposed to be grateful that in one contract, at least, this government isn't breaking its word? How much since 1994 has…? What is the federal transfer payment for health care since 1995?

Introductions by Members R. Lee: I have the privilege of having a school from my riding visiting the Legislature. Today in the gallery are 29 grade 5 students from Holy Cross Elementary S c h o o l i n B u r n a b y . T h e y a re here to learn about the Legislature and how government works, and they are accompanied by their teacher, Ms. Moscone, and 14 adults. Would the House please join me in making them welcome. Debate Continued Hon. C.

Hansen: I don't have that cumulative number at my fingertips, but I can advise the member that it is contained in the bu dget reports that are tabled by the Finance minister each year.

11052 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 J. MacPhail: Actually, it isn't. The CHST may be contained, but I'm asking what allocation this govern- ment has made for health care from the federal gov- ernment. It is interesting to note that every year since 2001 — the agreement was reached in August 2000 — there have been substantial increases in the flow of federal dollars to the provincial government. Prior to that, of course, th ere were actually cuts in transfer payments between the years 1994, '95, '96, '97 and '98 — cuts in transfer payments for the health care system.

That was at the time when the then opposition party, the Liberals, were berating the former govern- ment for not doing a good enough job — that the money was there, and why couldn't they deliver on a better health care system? Now, of course, we see that the wait-lists are up and the wait times are up, and yet ever more money is coming from the federal govern- ment. When the minister says that the federal funding for $130,961,000 is not guaranteed funding, what submis- sions has his government made to ensure stability? Hon. C.

Hansen: I wouldn't want to leave the im- pression that the $130.9 million is not guaranteed. It is. Those are revenues to the province in this year, and we are assured of those revenues, just as we are assured of the approximately $130 million the following year. It is the year after that where we have not been given any certainty around that annualization.

To answer the member's specific questions about the long-term stability, there have been representations made by the Premier and by Premiers, in terms of their first ministers' conference, urging the federal govern- ment to annualize the additional moneys that we're showing in this supplemental estimate today. J. MacPhail: How does that jibe with the Premier saying that it's not about money and that it's about doing the business of health care differently? What is it? Is it about the money or not? Hon. C.

Hansen: I think if the member were to go and check the comments made by the Premier, she would learn that what the Premier said is that it is not just about money. We can't continue to throw more and more money at the health care system in an incre- mental way, and I think this is the problem we've seen in the past.

What we have had is budgets for health care growing faster than the economy, and that's sim- ply not sustainable if you start going forward ten, 15 or 20 years into the future. [1520] What the Premier has been saying — a n d , i n f a c t , all Premiers of all political stripes across Canada have been saying — is that we have to also fix the health care system so that it is sustainable. It's not just about adding more money. All of those Premiers have been pushing for additional federal funds so that the federal government can reflect the share of health care funding that most people are pushing them for.

There is also a recognition that there has to be fundamental change in the system if it's truly goin g to be sustainable in the medium to long term. J. MacPhail: Actually, I do remember it, because the conference amongst the Premiers took place here in Vancouver at the same time that the Minister of Health Services was commenting far differently about the same matter here in Victor ia. I was asked to comment on the differences between what the Premier and the Minister of Health Services were saying.

The Premier said, "It's not about money," at the same that the Minis- ter of Health Services was saying: "It's about money." It was an embarrassing moment for the government upon which I got to comment, as a matter of fact. Sorry, Mr. Chair. As always, this government tries to bully the opposition by saying: "Oh no, you're mis- representing what the govern ment said." They just did it completely in question period, saying: "Oh no, we never said we weren't going to release the Pricewater- houseCoopers report in full. " They just did it.

Even though day after day, that's what the Premier said; that's what the minister said. The Chair: Member, can I caution you just to stay on this particular item. You're getting off track here. Could we refocus, please, on this vote — 25(S). J. MacPhail: The Premier did say it wasn't about the money. That was consistent with his message prior to him becoming government. The minute he became government, his entire cabinet said: "Oh, the federal government isn't stepping up to the plate, not doing their job." How is it that this government is going to manage?

What are their plans for sustainability and reducing the wait times and the wait-lists for surgery? What are their plans for eliminating the two-tier health care sys- tem that they're promoting day after day? Hon. C. Hansen: What we have before us is a sup- plemental estimate to increa se funding to the regional health sector by $147.986 million. Those moneys will primarily flow through the health authorities who have responsibility for management of the delivery of health services in that sector.

Th ey are developing their pro- grams to make sure that we maximize the amount of surgeries, the amount of home care support and other services that British Columbians are counting on. The Chair: Could the member take her seat, please. I just want to caution the member that we're not here to recanvass the estimates of the Ministry of Health Ser- vices. We're here to deal with this particular vote. I just want, as a caution, to keep focused. J. MacPhail: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate your direction. I actually am canvass- ing the $130 million, but thank you very much for your direction.

How much of that $130 million have the health authorities already taken into account?

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11053 Hon. C. Hansen: Clearly, when the initial budget was brought down by the Finance minister, we knew that there would be additional moneys, but we didn't know exactly how we would be able to allocate that. We were trying to be very careful in terms of the com- mitments that we made to the health authorities. There has been a notional allocation of about $80 million of that to the health authorities early on in the fiscal year so that they could at least start some plan- ning with a bit of certainty.

It's only since we have been able to confirm the exact allocation and how it would flow in each of the fiscal years that we've been able to now, finally, start sitting down with the health authori- ties to determine how the additional moneys would be allocated out of that $130 million. [1525] J. MacPhail: How many health authorities were in deficit at the end of the fiscal year '03-04? Hon. C. Hansen: The member's direct question, I think, was: which of the health authorities were in defi- cit at the end of the fiscal year? The answer vis-à-vis the fiscal year that just ended is that all of them were.

The reason is that the arrangement we had with the health authorities was that they had to balance their budgets over a two-year cycle, a 24-month cycle. If you look at it, most of them ran surpluses in the first year and deficits in the second year. If you look at it over the two-year period, all of them wound up with surpluses with regard to their operational budgets. Now, there are also some adjustments that came in with regard to the health benefits trust — which we canvassed when we were in main estimates, if I recall correctly.

That does make a difference in terms of their final bottom line, but in term s of their operations, they were all able to be in the black over that 24-month pe- riod. J. MacPhail: What is the black after the 24 months? Could I have it per health authority, please? Hon. C. Hansen: I don't have that breakdown with me at this point, but I can endeavour to get it for the member. J. MacPhail: The minister must have it there. How can he say he knows the answer to that, then? I don't understand.

Is the minister referring to some sort of generic document that says: "Oh, if the member for Vancouver-Hastings asks this question, give her this answer"? Or does he actually have some numbers there that he's looking at? Hon. C. Hansen: These numbers are still subject to audit. The table that I have in front of me is not set up with the kind of information the member is asking for. I do know that all of the he alth authorities in terms of their operations for the '03-04 fiscal year were in deficit and that all of them over the two-year cycle were, in fact, in surplus.

I don't ha ve the specific breakdown with each health authority, but I will endeavour to get it for the member. J. MacPhail: Maybe what the minister can do is give me the global budget for the regional health au- thorities — what the estimate was for '03-04 and what it ends up being, the revise d estimates. What is that — just the global one then? [1530] Hon. C.

Hansen: I guess the reason we're trying to dig through papers to get answers to the member's questions is that we came well prepared to talk about the additional $147 million but not prepared to talk about all of the details of last year's budget, because I thought we had canvassed th at when we did the main estimates in fair detail. What's in the budget for this year that we have be- f o r e u s i s a b a s e b u d g e t o f t h e r e g i o n a l h e a l t h s e c t o r funding of $6,495,945,000. J. MacPhail: That's $6 billion? Hon. C. Hansen: It's $6,495,945,000.

What we were adding to that is the $147.986 million. Of that base budget that had I referred to, what was allocated to the health authorities in the base budget was $6,239,204,000. J. MacPhail: Mr. Chair, I'm not quite sure why the minister thinks these ques tions are inappropriate and he came ill-prepared. I'm trying to figure out how much of the $130 million, if any, has already been spent — or not. If there's a defici t from previous years, then the $130 million will have already been accounted for. If there's a surplus, then it won't. I think it's a pretty straightforward question. It should be anticipated.

I'm not quite sure…. Let me ask this: can the minister surmise whether we're talking about $10 million overall surplus on the regional health budget or $1 billion or $5 million? What's the ballpark figure for the surplus? Hon. C. Hansen: Actually, I think I get where the member is coming from, so let me try this answer to see if I can address her concern. Because we have gone to the new generally accepted accounting principles, the health authorities can no longer carry forward their surpluses.

The last year that health authorities could carry forward a surplus was in the '02-03 fiscal year, and that's why they did wind up with a surplus. That was carried forward into the '03-04 fiscal year. They all ran surpluses in the first year and deficits in the second year, and over that two-year period they wound up all being slightly in the black. They cannot carry those surpluses forward under the new generally accepted accounting principles, so we start with a new fiscal year with the base budgets as I mentioned in response to the previous question, and we are now adding the $148 million to that.

11054 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 J. MacPhail: So the budget prior to this…. Is it $130 million or $148 million? The immunization fund is dis- tributed to the regional health authorities. The minister can answer that question in a moment, if he can re- member it. I'm sure he will be able to. Interjection. J. MacPhail: No, I don't mean that facetiously. I don't. I'm sorry if my tone was…. I apologize. After we pass these estimates, the new regional health budget will be $6.496 billion? Hon. C. Hansen: First of all, just to clarify on the first question that she asked, there are two elements to this additional federal money that flows. The first

part is money that flows from th e original health accord — that was in February of 2003, I guess it would have been — that was signed in Halifax. B.C.'s share of that over a three-year period was, if my memory serves me right, $10 billion. Sorry; it was $1.3 billion. That was B.C.'s per-capita share of the overall $10 billion in the health accord. [1535] What the federal government had indicated was that if there was a federal surplus last year, they would allocate an additional $2 bill ion of that federal surplus to the health accord moneys.

They confirmed that for us in January of this year, I believe it was, just immedi- ately prior to the budget. B.C.'s share of that $2 billion was $260 million — again, strictly a per-capita share. We still, at that point, didn't know whether we would have to allocate it over three years or whether it would all come in one year. Those are all the details that had to be worked through with both the federal auditor general and the provincial auditor general. The federal government had to pass special legislation to facilitate the establishment of this trus t in a way that meant that provinces could draw it down.

B.C.'s share of that for this fiscal year we are now into is $130.961 million. In addition to that, the federal government also announced another fund, which is a $300 million pub- lic health and immunization tr ust. B.C.'s share of that is, again, divided up on a per-capita basis. We can spread that over three years so that we take equal al- lotments, or close to equal allotments, in each of the three years. So the additional moneys that will be put into the budget this year from that trust are $17.025 million.

If you add those two together, you come up with the roughly $148 million that is being added to the health budget by way of this supplemental estimate that's before us today. Just to go back to what I had indicated earlier, the b a s e b u d g e t f o r t h e M i n i s t r y o f H e a l t h S e r v i c e s a s i t was presented to the House in the original estimates was a total of $6,495,945,000. That was allocated to the regional health sector, which is what's before us today.

Of that line item in the budget for the regional health sector, the overwhelming majority of that flows to the health authorities, and th at is $6,239,204,000. In es- sence, all except about $250 million flows into the health authorities themselves. J. MacPhail: I'm going to round it off to $148 mil- lion that the government is now getting. How much of that goes to the regional health authorities as opposed to the regional health sector? Hon. C. Hansen: As I mentioned earlier, so far we have allocated $80 million to the health authorities around the province.

We are now working with them in the allocation of the additional moneys — of that base $130 million. We have yet to sort out all of the final details in terms of how much would go to each individual health authority, but that work is being done. In addition to that, the $17 million that is allo- cated for public health and immunization will flow into the provincial health services authority, as they are responsible for the provincial immunization pro- grams. J. MacPhail: What I'm trying to get at is….

The minister, in the original ma in estimates of '04-05, dis- tinguished between regional health sector funding and regional health authority funding. There is $200 million, approximately, that is sectoral funding that doesn't flow to the regional health authorities, as I un- derstand it. Separate and apart from the immunization fund, of the $131 million that we're now debating, how does that divide between the distinction he made previously in the main estimates — between sectoral funding and authority funding? [1540] Hon. C.

Hansen: I guess first of all, just to outline, the main budget items that are within this line item of the budget but not specifica lly with one of the health authorities are items such as the Canadian Blood Ser- vices and the provincial health office. Also a big item is the out-of-province coverage for British Columbians who are travelling in other provinces, who have treat- ment and then the bills co me back to the province. That's paid out of this line item out of the budget but not specifically out of one of the individual health au- thorities.

If you take the allocation of the $131 million — and as I mentioned, we have already allocated to the health authorities $80 million of that — the remaining $51 million…. We're still working with the health authori- ties in terms of exactly how that would be divided up among the six health author ities in the province. We have not yet come to certainty with regard to how that will be divided up among the health authorities, but that's the work that is being done. J. MacPhail: I guess the short answer is that the full $130 million is flowing to health authorities.

That's what I understand from what the minister is saying in answer to my questions.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11055 I thought the funding formula was based on a population formula. Is there something different hap- pening in this case? Hon. C. Hansen: Yes, with the exception of the PHSA. We wind up with big cost pressures in the PHSA that we are obviously trying to address. Then the other health authorities are allocated according to the population needs–based funding. J. MacPhail: What are the cost pressures of the PHSA? Hon. C.

Hansen: Some of the major cost pressures for PHSA would be items such as some of the new can- cer drugs that need to be funded, because those are all funded through PHSA to the cancer agency; the renal program in the province, where we have expanded the number of renal dialysis stations in this province by…. It's over 40 percent. I forg et the exact number. There are also increased cost pres sures with regard to the B.C. Transplant Society and also the B.C.

Centre for Disease Control with some of the new challenges they are faced with — whether it's things like the avian flu monitoring or the West Nile virus programs that they are embarking upon. Those ar e all the types of cost pressures that we're facing within PHSA. J. MacPhail: Are these one-time cost pressures, or are they ongoing cost pressures? Hon. C. Hansen: I n t e r m s o f m o s t o f t h e t h i n g s I indicated, they're all ongoing — certainly the new can- cer medications, which are extremely expensive but are really so vitally important to the treatment of cancer in this province.

The renal programs are all ongoing fund- ing. Those are new permanent stations that have been established in communities all around the province. The B.C. Transplant Society, again, is all ongoing money. In the case of the B.C. Centre for Disease Control, I guess we had to fund West Nile virus programs last year on a one-time basis, and we'll be doing so again this year. We can certainly hope that's not an ongoing challenge for this province, but we have no way of knowing that for certain.

I'm sure everyone that's in- volved with the current avia n flu challenges in the Fra- ser Valley is hoping and praying that this is a one-time fund and that it's not going to be an ongoing challenge for the province, but those ar e all the kinds of unfore- seen events that we have to be prepared to fund. [1545] J. MacPhail: As the minister has already stated, the funding flowing from the federal government is a one- occurrence funding over two years.

If the government is now going to put the money into programs that re- quire ongoing funding, is his government committed to ensuring — regardless of federal funding increases — that his government will continue to fund the pro- grams at the new level? Hon. C. Hansen: If the member refers back to the original budget and fiscal plan that the Finance minis- ter tabled in February, you will see the three-year fund- ing projections that are ther e. The determination, if that's the right word, of these one-time moneys from the federal government was anticipated.

She'll see in the budget plan that we are committed to a significant investment in '06-07, which would be the first year for which there is not certaint y around these additional federal moneys. There is an additional allocation that has been indi- cated for that year, which would allow us to meet those challenges if the federal government does not give us ongoing certainty. Certainly, what we're pushing for and what the Premier is pushing for is for the federal gov- ernment to annualize these funds, so that we do have that kind of stability going forward.

But we have built into our ongoing third-year budget additional moneys to allow for stability in the overall health budget. J. MacPhail: We're talking about federal funding that flows from federal taxes, and of course, this gov- ernment has written off $250 million of federal taxes through their deal with CN. If they hadn't given CN a $250 million federal tax break, that money could have easily flowed to British Columbia for health care. It is kind of like this government talking out of both sides of its mouth, saying, "Oh, we want more money from the federal government for health care.

But by the way, we've just cut a deal with CN that they don't have to pay federal taxes" — a $255 million deal that CN doesn't have to pay federal taxes, a complete write-off — that would have more than made up for two more years of stable funding around federal transfer pay- ments for health care. Isn't it ironic? On the one hand the government says, "Oh no, it's not about money" — the Premier says. The Health minister says it is about money, and then both of them throw away $255 mil- lion of federal taxes that should have been collected by CN — let alone all the other breaks that CN gets.

I don't have my book here, Mr. Chair. How much in '06-07 is the budget increased over '03-04? [1550] Hon. C. Hansen: If you look at the base bu dget at the start of '03-04 to the projected budget for '06-07, it would be an increase of $1.047 billion. And just for reference, you can find that on page 17 of the budget and fiscal plan. J. MacPhail: How much of the $148 million that flows extra in '04-05 and th en another $148 million in '05-06 will continue in '06-07? Hon. C. Hansen: The answer is approximately $17 million, which is the amount that pertains to the public health and immunization trust. J.

MacPhail: No. Well, maybe this is the answer. I'm asking how much from the provincial government funding will continue.

11056 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 Hon. C. Hansen: Of the amount that I indicated earlier, the $1.047 billion increase in the '06-07 year, $435 million would be from provincial sources — i.e., not pertaining to increases in federal moneys that have been transferred. J. MacPhail: Do the health authorities have auton- omy in allocating this extra federal money? Hon. C. Hansen: With regard to the health accord moneys, generally, that are flowing, some of those are tied to the specific objectives of the reform fund.

The specific $130 million that's before us today is an in- crease to the CHST, so it's not an increase to the health reform fund per se. In esse nce, it doesn't come with conditions attached to it. As we, in turn, then flow it to the health authorities, there are no conditions that flow from the federal gov- ernment, but there are expect ations that flow from the provincial government. They're with regard to the per- formance agreements that ar e in place. Also, moneys that flow into the PHSA would be to target specific cost pressures that they're facing.

The dynamic as it works is that it's not really a case of the health authorities going out and doing whatever they want with the money. There is a very healthy dy- namic between the ministry and the health authorities around trying to achieve specific objectives with regard to home care and dealing with wait-lists and things like that. In essence, the health authorities do have the ability to manage that money, but they manage it towards specific performance outcomes that we expect of them. J. MacPhail: How much of this federal money that we're debating right now will flow to surgeries? Hon. C.

Hansen: That's the kind of detail I wouldn't have at this point. The health authorities, when they see what their allocations will be, will have to deter- mine where their pressures are. If you look at all of the health authorities, they have differing needs when it comes to doing surgeries versus other needs in the health care sector. We rely on them and their exper- tise to determine exactly where those priorities should be. Vote 25(

S) approved. Hon. C. Hansen: I move the committee rise, report resolution and ask leave to sit again. Motion approved. The committee rose at 3:55 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Committee of Supply B, having reported resolution, was granted leave to sit again. Introduction and First Reading of Bills MINISTERIAL ACCOUNTABILITY BASES ACT, 2004-2005 H o n . G . C o l l i n s p r e s e n t e d a m e s s a g e f r o m H e r Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Min- isterial Accountability Bases Act, 2004-2005. Hon. G. Collins: I move the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved. Hon. G. Collins: This bill is similar to other bills of this nature that have been introduced following the introduction and passage of supplementary estimates. Its wording is virtually identical to the one that was introduced earlier this year for the supplemental esti- mates we had for forest fires as well as the emergency response from the Solicitor General, etc. With that, I would move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 49 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Recommittal of Bills CREMATION, INTERMENT AND FUNERAL SERVICES ACT Hon. R. Coleman: By leave, I move that the pro- ceedings in regards to third reading of Bill 3, intituled the Cremation, Interment and Funeral Services Act, be declared null and void and that the bill be recommitted forthwith in respect to sections 1 and 68. Leave granted. Motion approved.

Committee of the Whole House CREMATION, INTERMENT AND FUNERAL SERVICES ACT The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 3; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 4 p.m. The Chair: Minister, you have an amendment on

section 1. Hon. R. Coleman: I move the amendment to sec- tion 1 standing in my name on the orders of the day.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11057 [SECTION 1, in the proposed

section 1 by adding the fol- lowing definition: "spouse" means a person who (

a) is married to another person, (

b) is united to another person by a marriage that, al- though not a legal marriage, is valid at common law, or (

c) has lived and cohabited with another person in a marriage-like relationship, including a marriage-like relationship between persons of the same gender, for a period of at least 2 years immediately before the other person's death;] On the amendment. J. MacPhail: I'll just read the amendment into the record, Mr. Chair. It's an amendment to

section 1 "by adding the following definition: 'spouse' means a per- son who (

a) is married to another person, (

b) is united to another person by a marriage that, although not a legal marriage, is valid at common law, or (

c) has lived and cohabited with another person in a marriage-like relationship, including a marriage-like relationship between persons of the same gender, for a period of at least 2 years immediately be fore the other person's death." My colleague the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant and I will be voting in favour of this amend- ment. [1605] Amendment approved unan imously on a division. [See Votes and Proceedings.]

Section 1 as amended approved. On

section 68. The Chair: The Solicitor General has an amend- ment to

section 68. Hon. R. Coleman: I move the amendment to sec- tion 68 standing in my name on the orders of the day. [SECTION 68, in the proposed subsection (2) by deleting paragraph (y).] On the amendment. J. MacPhail: I note that

section 68 deletes what was the reference under Bill 3 to propose that this govern- ment put in regulation who could have a say, in what order, over the disposal of the body of a deceased per- son. It was an interesting discussion. Here's what sub- section (2)(

y) of

section 68 reads: "prescribing classes of persons who are spouses, including persons who are not married." We had quite a little discussion at the original time of Bill 3, where the minister insisted that it had to be done behind closed doors. N o w , o f c o u r s e , t h e g o v - ernment has seen the ways that the opposition pro- moted and said this should be in legislation. That's why the deletion of this

section is here — to not allow the government to make these decisions behind closed doors but to actually have those rights of people who are same-sex couples confirmed and incorporated into the legislation. Amendment approved.

Section 68 as amended approved. Title approved. Hon. R. Coleman: I move that the committee rise and report the bill complete with amendments. Motion approved. The committee rose at 4:10 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Reporting of Bills Bill 3, Cremation, Interment and Funeral Services Act, reported complete with amendments. Third Reading of Bills Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as read? Hon. G. Collins: By leave, now, Mr. Speaker. Leave granted. Bill 3, Cremation, Interment and Funeral Services Act, read a third time and passed. Hon. G.

Collins: I call Committee of the Whole House for consideration of Bill 34. [1615] Committee of the Whole House PROVINCIAL REVENUE STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 34; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 4:16 p.m.

Section 1 approved. On

section 2. L. Mayencourt:

Section 2, which is amending the Corporation Capital Tax Act, refers to the administra- tor under sub (4): "Despite subsection (2) (

b) if an as- sessment action has occurred in respect of a corpora- tion, the administrator may assess or reassess the cor- poration for a tax or make an additional tax assessment

11058 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 against the corporation for a taxation year before the end of the later of…." Can I get some clarification? Who is the administra- tor, and what is the limit on the reassessment? Is there a time limit on that? Hon. R. Thorpe: First of all, I'd like to recognize the staff that are with me today: Simone Decosse and Jef- frey Krasnick, who are with the Ministry of Provincial Revenue. I thank them for all their hard work. The administrator is the director of the income tax branch. There is a six-year statute on corporate capital tax.

This amendment here is providing us with the flexibility to comply with changes to the federal law where there is a reassessment and reallocation. Sections 2 to 4 inclusive approved. On

section 5. L. Mayencourt: The director — w h e n h e o r s h e i s deciding that a board member is jointly and severally liable, is it required that the board member in question was aware of the non-payment and did nothing about it? Is that what's intended there? Hon. R. Thorpe: For someone to be liable in this situation, it would have to be demonstrated that they, in fact, did not do due diligence. Sections 5 and 6 approved. On

section 7. L. Mayencourt: Under "Deemed board member," it states: "If the director has reason to believe that a per- son who was not a member of the board of directors of a corporation performed some or all of the functions of a member of the board of directors of the corporation, the director may request the person and the corpora- tion to provide to the dire ctor the records and informa- tion required by the director to confirm or rebut that belief." In the first part of that — "if the director" — are we talking about the director of taxation? The second ques- tion that I have is….

The person that's not a member of the board who comes in and performs some of the du- ties…. How much is "some"? [H. Long in the chair.] [1620] Hon. R. Thorpe: Sorry, I didn't hear the second part of the question, but let me answer the first part. The director is the director under the Hotel Room Tax Act. L. Mayencourt: T h e n w h e n w e r e f e r t o s o m e o n e who's performing some of the duties of a board mem- ber — I would imagine like a consultant or maybe even a staff member — how much is "some"? Hon. R.

Thorpe: In some instances the board mem- bers are appointed for profile, things like that, and are really not involved in the day-to-day operations of an organization. This would be where, for instance, the chief operating officer was discharging those responsi- bilities and was deemed to have not done it properly. That's what this is intended to capture. L. Mayencourt: It's not about a consultant coming in and working and doing so me of the work that a board member would do, and it's not about an em- ployee doing that either. Hon. R. Thorpe: No, it is not. L. Mayencourt: Okay, thank you.

Sections 7 to 15 inclusive approved. On

section 16. L. Mayencourt: I'm looking at "notional tax" in the definition of a notional tax. I'm wondering if you could provide me with a better understanding of that particu- lar set of words there. Hon. R. Thorpe: That would pertain to the royalty and deemed income–related provisions requiring tax- payers who have mining or oil and gas profits to calcu- late British Columbia income tax by adding back a fed- eral resource allowance and deducting the British Co- lumbia royalties and the British Columbia mineral taxes paid. I trust that clears that up for the member. L.

Mayencourt: Now I'm really perplexed, or some- thing like that. Is there a simpler version of that? Hon. R. Thorpe: The federal government has a fed- eral resource allowance, which we do not allow in Brit- ish Columbia. We have the actual royalties that are incurred here in British Columbia. We allow those to be taken into account. Sections 16 to 21 inclusive approved. On

section 22. [1625] L. Mayencourt: Just on the title, "Continuing liabil- ity for taxes." Is that open-ended, or is that within that six-year limit that you spoke of earlier? Hon. R. Thorpe: This is a rewrite with the addition of the waiver provision, and the waiver provision is at the sole discretion of the taxpayer. In other words, if we're in a situation and the taxpayer wants to waive that limitation so they can proceed or have additional time to look into some matters, it's at their sole discre- tion that that's waived. Sections 22 to 24 inclusive approved.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11059 On

section 25. Hon. R. Thorpe: I move the amendment to

section 25 that is in the possession of the Clerk, a copy of which has been supplied to the opposition. [SECTION 25 (c), by adding the following definition, "spouse" means (

a) a person who is married to another person, or (

b) a person who (

i) is living and cohabiting with another person in a marriage-like relationship, including a marriage-like relationship between persons of the same gender, and (ii) has been living and cohabiting in that relation- ship for a continuous period of at least two years;] Amendment approved. On

section 25 as amended. B. Kerr: I have a question relating to this for people that are living on leased la nd, where they're on Crown land and they're paying a lease fee. I have in my con- stituency a number of people that are living in an area where the land is leased. What has happened as a re- sult of the lease being based on the assessed value of the property is that the pr operty has skyrocketed in price, as we all know.

Now that the lease payments they're supposed to be making are untenable for some of the people who are in th eir mid-seventies, they're concerned they're going to be evicted from these places although they've been livi ng on them for 30 years. Would this capture those people so that they can get the deferment on the property tax? Hon. R. Thorpe: This section,

section 25, is defini- tions. We have put in additional

definitions here to clarify various items. Of course, if those individuals are encompassed by the

definitions of the act, including these new

definitions that we 're seeking to pass in this House today, then people would qualify. If they're outside the scope of those de finitions, then, of course, they would not qualify. B. Kerr: I guess they're living on an area of land with an improvement on it, so by my indication, that would make them qualify. I just want to get some as- surance from the minister th at that would allow them to qualify. [1630] Hon. R. Thorpe: Those that are eligible for this tax deferment are individuals that are 60 years and older, a surviving spouse of such an individual, or that have physical and mental disabili ties.

That's what the Land Tax Deferment Act is about. It's about those that qual- ify in there. I might also say, because the member is asking a particular thing about indivi dual constituents…. If in fact that member wants to pursue that outside of this debate in further detail, I and my ministry would be pleased to work with him on such a matter. B. Kerr: Thank you for that. I'll take you up on that offer. Although I used my constituents as an example, I was using them as an example which probably applies — could apply — to any citizen of British Columbia. L. Mayencourt: The surviving spouse.

They don't have to be over 60 — right? Hon. R. Thorpe: That is correct.

Section 25 as amended approved. Sections 26 and 27 approved. On

section 28. L. Mayencourt: Yeah, on

section 28, and it's just at the last bit. It has to do with property being held in joint tenancy or tenancy in common: "…at least one of the owners must qualify under this Act." What happens if someone goes through the prop- erty tax deferment process for ten or 15 years — all right, five years — and then decides to change from being the single owner and enters into a joint tenancy agreement with, say, a younger relative? What hap- pens to the tax deferment that they have already re- ceived? Hon. R. Thorpe: That member comes up with some very interesting questions. As long as one of the mem- bers is eligible, the eligibility remains in place. B. Kerr: I believe this to be in

section 28 when we're talking about who's eligible. This is a general question, but I'm hoping it's on this section. We have tax sales, where people don't pay their tax and their property is put up for a tax sale. The reason they don't pay their taxes is because they're incompetent, but they might not have a committee. They might not even be aware of what is happening. If the committee doesn't act accordingly or properly for them, their property is put up for a tax sale. Is there any way to correct that situation so that they can then apply for the deferment and not have the property put up for a tax sale?

The debt on the property might be in the neighbourhood of $20,000 or even $5,000, and the equity might be $250,000. Somebody picks it up for a song, and it doesn't get corrected. Hon. R. Thorpe: This act does not have any impact on forfeiture. Sections 28 to 33 inclusive approved. On

section 34. Hon. R. Thorpe: I move the amendment to

section 34 which is in the possession of the Clerk. A copy has been supplied to the opposition. Let me just read it for members who haven't received it. [SECTION 34, by deleting the proposed paragraph (f).]

11060 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 Amendment approved.

Section 34 as amended approved. Sections 35 to 39 inclusive approved. On

section 40. L. Mayencourt: The question that I have is on sec- tion 21(5)(a)(iii): "any person has made any misrepre- sentation or committed any fraud in making a return or in supplying information under this Act." That means knowingly — does it? [1635] Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes. L. Mayencourt: The reason I'm asking is that it seems to me that in some parts of taxation, sometimes someone might have followed the rules under a certain regulation, or what have you, and then learned at some later time that it's been reinterpreted. That's the reason why I'm asking that question. Hon. R.

Thorpe: Fraud means fraud, and fraud does mean that people knowingly knew what they were doing. That's how it's deemed to be fraud. Not connecting this answer to that question, but just giving another explanation to the member in gen- eral on tax assessments, the way our system works in British Columbia is that all taxpayers — no matter what the tax is — have the ability to appeal their as- sessment. That appeal is done and handled by a branch of the ministry that is totally independent from the assessing unit so that there is independence there.

Those appeals, under our government, are re- viewed at the ministerial level. In fact, I personally review all appeals with respect to taxation and ap- peals that are made by individual taxpayers in the province. Sections 40 to 45 inclusive approved. On

section 46. L. Mayencourt: It has to do with the title here, "Fair market value…." As the minister notes, we've had some discussions in the last little while around fair market value. I guess what I'm just trying to find out is: where does that…? You know, you go out and buy something, and it increase s in value, for instance. Where is that fair market value determined? Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes, I thank the member for that question. Also, I'd like to recognize that on a number of individual issues, I have been working with the mem- ber when he is representing the interests of his con- stituents.

Fair market value is a value that is established as if a transaction had taken place, a truly arm's-length situation. Of course, when we are looking at these, we have to make sure that the fair market value…. The way the law is written with respect to property transfer tax is that the date of registration of the property is when the fair market value situation takes place. You know, we look at that. We review those things. We have had a rising marketplac e with respect to real es- tate. Generally, there is no impact when a purchase takes place and is closed in a relatively short time frame.

Where we do have issues that are coming up is in a situation where there is more than just a piece of land that has been transferred or taken apart from a consolidation. That is one type of issue. Another issue is when someone buys a property today but doesn't register it until two or two and a half years out. That has been an issue. We do look generally at B.C. Assessment factors and assessments at that time a s f a i r m a r k e t v a l u e , b u t w e a l s o t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t other information. In fact, if something else has been sold higher or lower than B.C.

Assessment value, we take that into account. If someone has had an individ- ual appraisal taken for insurance purposes and/or fi- nancing purposes, we take that into account. [1640] Again, it has been an issue that has gained in- creased attention as the markets have accelerated in recent months, but it's one th at we continue to monitor and work closely with the members of this House to ensure that the fairness with respect to the legislation is in place so that the law of the legislation is upheld. L. Mayencourt: You banged the nail on the head there, because that's my real problem.

I'll just share it with the House. In my neighbourhood, which is downtown Van- couver, the average pre-sell of an apartment or a condo is 23 months. That means that they buy it before it is even a hole in the ground, and it can increase in value. We've seen a substantial incr ease in value of property over the last couple of years, and it's caused some great hardship in my community. Some of it's been on some of the more high-priced units. I'll admit that some of it is around Coal Harbour and Concord, but also in other neighbourhoods where people are really buying their second….

It's their second time at buying a house or an apartment, and all of a sudd en they get dinged with a $500 assessment or a $5,000 assessment or in some cases much, much more. I t j u s t o c c u r s t o m e t h a t t h e y s a t d o w n 2 0 m o n t h s ago and decided that they re ally liked the place, and they bought it for $180,000. You know, they've been saving their money, and then they get to the final day and get into the house.

They're getting the furniture moved in, and all of a sudden they realize they have to move some of the furniture out because they haven't got the money to pay the property transfer tax. It's a real concern. I appreciate the minister taking a look at this. Are there any considerations on where we're going with this and a way to address it so that it is fair for people who are legitimately just trying to make an invest- ment?

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11061 Hon. R. Thorpe: I can tell the member that the issue is not confined just to the ar ea of the province that he resides in. It happens in others. We're very aware of this situation. That's why we work very closely with the real estate industry, wi th the legal community, to make sure as many people as possible are aware of the law. This is legislation that has been in place since 1987, and we are very aware of the situation. We are very aware of tax fairness. We are very aware of making sure that we have a competitive tax regime.

That's why our government has reduced taxes 31 times. It's an is- sue that we're very aware of, and I look forward to continuing to work with the members of this House on this issue. L. Mayencourt: Just in conclusion on this section, you've said that they're able to appeal the assessment, and I believe the time frame for that is 90 days. I've got a little situation in that I might have a lit

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	h0512pm-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	h0512pm 10
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	83768559dbe1c960a71129f5869766b7561bcefb

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