Province of Alberta The 27th Legislature Second Session Alberta Hansard Wednesday, March 4, 2009 Issue 9 The Honourable Kenneth R. Kowalski, Speaker

Legislative Assembly of Alberta The 27th Legislature Second Session Kowalski, Hon. Ken, Barrhead-Morinville-Westlock, Speaker Cao, Wayne C.N., Calgary-Fort, Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees Mitzel, Len, Cypress-Medicine Hat, Deputy Chair of Committees Ady, Hon. Cindy, Calgary-Shaw (PC), Minister of Tourism, Parks and Recreation Allred, Ken, St.

Albert (PC) Amery, Moe, Calgary-East (PC) Anderson, Rob, Airdrie-Chestermere (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Solicitor General and Public Security Benito, Carl, Edmonton-Mill Woods (PC) Berger, Evan, Livingstone-Macleod (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Sustainable Resource Development Bhardwaj, Naresh, Edmonton-Ellerslie (PC) Bhullar, Manmeet Singh, Calgary-Montrose (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Advanced Education and Technology Blackett, Hon.

Lindsay, Calgary-North West (PC), Minister of Culture and Community Spirit Blakeman, Laurie, Edmonton-Centre (L), Deputy Leader of the Official Opposition Official Opposition House Leader Boutilier, Guy C., Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo (PC) Brown, Dr. Neil, QC, Calgary-Nose Hill (PC) Calahasen, Pearl, Lesser Slave Lake (PC) Campbell, Robin, West Yellowhead (PC), Deputy Government Whip Chase, Harry B., Calgary-Varsity (L), Official Opposition Whip Dallas, Cal, Red Deer-South (PC) Danyluk, Hon. Ray, Lac La Biche-St.

Paul (PC), Minister of Municipal Affairs DeLong, Alana, Calgary-Bow (PC) Denis, Jonathan, Calgary-Egmont (PC) Doerksen, Arno, Strathmore-Brooks (PC) Drysdale, Wayne, Grande Prairie-Wapiti (PC) Elniski, Doug, Edmonton-Calder (PC) Evans, Hon. Iris, Sherwood Park (PC), Minister of Finance and Enterprise Fawcett, Kyle, Calgary-North Hill (PC) Forsyth, Heather, Calgary-Fish Creek (PC) Fritz, Hon. Yvonne, Calgary-Cross (PC), Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs Goudreau, Hon.

Hector G., Dunvegan-Central Peace (PC), Minister of Employment and Immigration Griffiths, Doug, Battle River-Wainwright (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Agriculture and Rural Development Groeneveld, Hon. George, Highwood (PC), Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development Hancock, Hon. Dave, QC, Edmonton-Whitemud (PC), Minister of Education, Government House Leader Hayden, Hon. Jack, Drumheller-Stettler (PC), Minister of Infrastructure Hehr, Kent, Calgary-Buffalo (

L) Horne, Fred, Edmonton-Rutherford (PC) Horner, Hon. Doug, Spruce Grove-Sturgeon-St. Albert (PC), Minister of Advanced Education and Technology Jablonski, Hon. Mary Anne, Red Deer-North (PC), Minister of Seniors and Community Supports Jacobs, Broyce, Cardston-Taber-Warner (PC) Johnson, Jeff, Athabasca-Redwater (PC) Johnston, Art, Calgary-Hays (PC) Kang, Darshan S., Calgary-McCall (

L) Klimchuk, Hon. Heather, Edmonton-Glenora (PC), Minister of Service Alberta Knight, Hon. Mel, Grande Prairie-Smoky (PC), Minister of Energy Leskiw, Genia, Bonnyville-Cold Lake (PC) Liepert, Hon. Ron, Calgary-West (PC), Minister of Health and Wellness Lindsay, Hon. Fred, Stony Plain (PC), Solicitor General and Minister of Public Security Lukaszuk, Thomas A., Edmonton-Castle Downs (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Municipal Affairs Lund, Ty, Rocky Mountain House (PC) MacDonald, Hugh, Edmonton-Gold Bar (

L) Marz, Richard, Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills (PC) Mason, Brian, Edmonton-Highlands-Norwood (NDP), Leader of the NDP Opposition McFarland, Barry, Little Bow (PC) McQueen, Diana, Drayton Valley-Calmar (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Environment Morton, Hon. F.L., Foothills-Rocky View (PC), Minister of Sustainable Resource Development Notley, Rachel, Edmonton-Strathcona (NDP), Deputy Leader of the NDP Opposition, NDP Opposition House Leader Oberle, Frank, Peace River (PC), Government Whip Olson, Verlyn, QC, Wetaskiwin-Camrose (PC) Ouellette, Hon.

Luke, Innisfail-Sylvan Lake (PC), Minister of Transportation Pastoor, Bridget Brennan, Lethbridge-East (L), Deputy Official Opposition Whip Prins, Ray, Lacombe-Ponoka (PC) Quest, Dave, Strathcona (PC) Redford, Hon. Alison M., QC, Calgary-Elbow (PC), Minister of Justice and Attorney General Renner, Hon. Rob, Medicine Hat (PC), Minister of Environment, Deputy Government House Leader Rodney, Dave, Calgary-Lougheed (PC) Rogers, George, Leduc-Beaumont-Devon (PC) Sandhu, Peter, Edmonton-Manning (PC) Sarich, Janice, Edmonton-Decore (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Education Sherman, Dr.

Raj, Edmonton-Meadowlark (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Health and Wellness Snelgrove, Hon. Lloyd, Vermilion-Lloydminster (PC), President of the Treasury Board Stelmach, Hon. Ed, Fort Saskatchewan-Vegreville (PC), Premier, President of Executive Council Stevens, Hon. Ron, QC, Calgary-Glenmore (PC), Deputy Premier, Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations Swann, Dr. David, Calgary-Mountain View (L), Leader of the Official Opposition Taft, Dr. Kevin, Edmonton-Riverview (

L) Tarchuk, Hon. Janis, Banff-Cochrane (PC), Minister of Children and Youth Services Taylor, Dave, Calgary-Currie (

L) VanderBurg, George, Whitecourt-Ste. Anne (PC) Vandermeer, Tony, Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview (PC) Weadick, Greg, Lethbridge-West (PC) Webber, Len, Calgary-Foothills (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Energy Woo-Paw, Teresa, Calgary-Mackay (PC) Xiao, David H., Edmonton-McClung (PC), Parliamentary Assistant, Employment and Immigration Zwozdesky, Hon. Gene, Edmonton-Mill Creek (PC), Minister of Aboriginal Relations, Deputy Government House Leader Officers and Officials of the Legislative Assembly Clerk W.J. David McNeil Clerk Assistant/ Director of House Services Louise J.

Kamuchik Clerk of Journals/Table Research Micheline S. Gravel Senior Parliamentary Counsel Robert H. Reynolds, QC Senior Parliamentary Counsel Shannon Dean Sergeant-at-Arms Brian G. Hodgson Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms J. Ed Richard Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms William C. Semple Managing Editor of Alberta Hansard Liz Sim

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 217 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. Wednesday, March 4, 2009 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon and welcome. Let us pray. Grant us daily awareness of the precious gift of life which has been given to us. As Members of this Legislative Assembly we dedicate our lives anew to the service of our province and of our country. Amen. Please be seated. head: Introduction of Visitors The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Premier. Mr. Stevens: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly the consul general of India, Mr. Ashok Das. I had the privilege of hosting a lunch today in honour of the consul general’s first visit to Alberta. Alberta and India have a very strong connection, and we value very much that relationship. I think it would be appropriate to say that our Assembly has a strong relationship with India in that five of our 83 members are, indeed, of Indian heritage. We have a well- established trade relationship that goes back 25 years, and it’s a significant one.

In 2007 our two-way trade was valued at over $300 million. We know that there’s great potential for that to grow in the years ahead. Alberta and India also have a very strong friendship and a connection through our people. Over 72,000 people of Indian descent call Alberta home, including, as I’ve indicated, five members of this Assembly. Mr. Speaker, Alberta appreciates our strong relationship with India as a key trading partner and as a friend. I would ask that the consul general now rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. head: Introduction of Guests The Speaker: The hon.

Minister of Transportation. Mr. Ouellette: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly a group of individuals from my constituency who are visiting the Legislature today. I think it is so important for these bright kids to visit the Legislature. As you know, they will all be tomorrow’s leaders. We have with us today 23 students from Spruce View school, who are seated in the members’ gallery, and they are accompanied by their teachers and parent helpers Ms Teri Patterson, Mr. Peter Wiersma, Mrs. Jeanne Rasmussen, Ms Sharon Johannsen, Mrs. Bonnie Schweer, Mrs.

Shelley Newsham, Mrs. Gaylene Dolphin, Ms Shauna Wills, and Ms Bren Gairdner. I would like them all to stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Service Alberta. Mrs. Klimchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a pleasure today to rise and introduce to you and through you to this Assembly two classes from Holy Cross elementary and junior high school from the most vibrant constituency in th e province, the constituency of Edmonton-Glenora. The students are here on a tour, and they’ve been visiting the Legislature today.

I would like to acknowledge the teachers and the parents who are here. We have Ms Brigitte Levasseur, Mr. Gilles Beaudoin, Ms Manuela Wagner, Ms Connie Versluys, and Ms Jadeene Wheaton. I hope you’ve enjoyed your experience today. I would encourage you to give a warm welcome to these future leaders. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview. Mr. Vandermeer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly some wonderful children from Abbott elementary school. They are here with their teachers Mrs.

Christian and Miss Rouault and also a parent helper with the same name, Mrs. Rouault. I believe they are in the members’ gallery. I would ask them all to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands-Norwood. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s a great pleasure for me to introduce to you and to all members of this Assembly a number of students from R. J. Scott elementary school. These are bright and intelligent young people.

I had a great chance to have just a little chat with them as we got our picture taken at 1 o’clock this afternoon in the rotunda. Their t eacher is Miss Adele Edmondson and the parent helper is Mrs. Marci Baril. I would ask that they and all the kids from the class please rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Premier. Mr. Stevens: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to make another introduction.

It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly someone that most of you have met from time to time over the years, a good friend of mine and a former colleague, Mr. Jeremy Chorney. Jeremy was with me as my executive assistant from 2001 to 2007. He came out of the research ranks of our government caucus. Over those years he taught me much. I taught him a great deal more. As a public servant I can tell you that it’s nice to have somebody from the private sector who is in government relations who from time to time has access to a free beer or so.

I would ask Jeremy to please rise and receive the traditional welcome. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Hancock: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s great to have all these school classes here today b ecause Alberta Education has initiated a project called Inspiring Education: A Dialogue with Albertans to build understanding of and enthusiasm for education, to develop a vision of an educated child, and to develop a policy framework to guide education in Alberta over the next 20 years. Inspiring Education is led by a steering committee comprised of enthusiastic, diverse, and very busy Albertans.

Today I’d like to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly, the members of the steering committee. In addition to my MLA colleagues the Member for Athabasca- Redwater, who is the co-chair of the steering committee, and the members for Edmonton-Decore, Calgary-Hays and Calgary- Montrose, we have with us today in the gallery Mark Anielski, who is the author of The Economics of Happiness and a professor at the

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009218 University of Alberta; Lance Carlson, president of the Alberta College of Art and Design; Sharon Carry, president of Bow Valley College; Dr. Sharon Friesen, chairman of the Galileo project; Jim Gibbons, the superintendent of Chinook’s Edge school division; Dr. Wilton Littlechild, regional chief of the Assembly of First Nations for Alberta; Deborah Lloyd, an educator from Medicine Hat; John Masters with Calgary Technology Inc.; Dr.

Jane O’Dea, who is the dean of education at the University of Lethbridge; Brant Parker, president of University School in Calgary; Anne-Marie Pham, who, among her other talents, is known for working very closely with the various communities in Calgary; Zuhy Sayeed from Lloydminster, who is a community activist, I think, is probably the best way I’d describe her; Laurie Thompson, principal of the Kikino school of the Kikino Métis settlement; John Tiemstra from your own constitu- ency and town of Barrhead, Mr.

Speaker, who is retired now as a CTS or, as we used to know it, a shop teacher and, actually, the head of their CTS department at the school in Barrhead; Don Iveson, who is an Edmonton city councillor; and the one steering committee member who is not with us today, Mary Hofstetter, the president of The Banff Centre. I’d ask that the steering committee please rise and that all members of the Assembly give them our thanks for taking time out of their busy lives to help improve education in Alberta. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Energy. Mr. Knight: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

It certainly is a pleasure for me to rise today. Speaking of education, I don’t have a long list like my colleague; however, I can make up in quality what he gave us in quantity. Mr. Speaker, seated in the gallery I have a very good friend, a gentleman that spent his career in the education scene in northwest- ern Alberta, a very dedicated individual. Upon retirement he committed himself to volunteering efforts in and around the city of Grande Prairie and the region of northwestern Alberta. It’s a great pleasure for me to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly Mr. Dennis Grant.

I would ask Dennis to please stand and receive the warm welcome of our Assembly. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Strathcona. Mr. Quest: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to this Assembly Moneca Melan, who is visiting the Legislature today. As a result of the tragic loss of her daughter Melissa in a motor vehicle collision in 2006, Ms Melan has worked tirelessly to ensure that other families do not have to face the same loss.

Since 2007 Ms Melan has collected more than 1,500 signatures that urge the government to introduce legislation to suspend a graduated driver’s licence if the holder of the licence is involved in a collision resulting in serious injury or death. This issue was first raised in this House on April 10, 2007. Later today I’ll have the pleasure of presenting an additional 770 names that have signed the petition. She’s seated in the public gallery, and I would ask that she rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Mr.

Bhardwaj: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my honour to rise today and introduce to you and through you a good friend and a proud Albertan, Mr. Preetam Sharma. Mr. Sharma is the president of Council of India Societies of Edmonton, which is an umbrella organization for 15 different organizations. He also served as chairman for the India pavilion at the Edmonton heritage days last year and will serve again this year. I would ask him to please rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Mr. Benito: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my distinct pleasure to rise today to introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly our constituency staff of Edmonton-Mill Woods. With us today in the members’ gallery ar e Ms Kae Espedido, our constitu- ency assistant, and Mr. Reginald Petines, our deputy constituency manager. They serve the community well, and I’m very proud of the service they’re extending to Edmonton-Mill Woods. I would like to ask Ms Espedido and Mr. Petines to please rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. head: Members’ Statements The Speaker: The hon. Member for Athabasca-Redwater.

Inspiring Education: A Dialogue with Albertans Mr. Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to speak today about a very special initiative, Inspiring Education: A Dialogue with Albertans. Inspiring Education is fundamentally about the future of our province. We must educate our students not for the world of today but for the world into which they will graduate. During these dynamic and challenging economic times it’s increasingly apparent that if we are to remain successful individually and collectively as a province, we must rely on the virtues that have made Alberta strong.

Beginning from the core values of opportu- nity, fairness, citizenship, diversity, and choice, Inspiring Education will work to increase public appreciation for education, a clearer understanding of what it will mean to be an educated Albertan 20 years from now, and ultimately a policy framework to guide activities and decisions in the education sector. It’s my honour to co-chair the project’s steering committee along with Brent McDonough, an outstanding t eacher from Holy Trinity high school in the Edmonton Catholic school district.

Along with three of my legislative colleagues – the members for Edmonton- Decore, Calgary-Hays, and Calgary-Montrose – we are working with 16 accomplished and diverse individuals from across the province who round out the committee and bring a great breadth of perspec- tives to the projects. Inspiring Education is a dialogue, not a traditional stakeholder consultation. It’s a discussion to explore the perspectives of all Albertans rather than reviewing key stakeholder positions. It’s an exciting visionary exercise focusing on the outcomes of our education system rather than the system itself.

In short, it’s about our kids and giving them what they need to be successful in a dynamic world that we cannot predict. Inspiring Education is about engaging all Albertans so that we can understand what education needs to deliver for Albertans. Very soon the Minister of Education, my steering committee co-chair, and I will be announcing further details about Inspiring Education and how all Albertans can get involved. I want to thank the minister and all the members of the steering committee for their dedication to this initiative.

I look forward to continuing to share the important work being done on this project with my colleagues and with all Albertans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 219 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. Health System Reform Dr. Swann: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The government has created chaos in Alberta’s health care system, the result of rushed, hasty changes made without careful examination of the evidence and without proper public and professional consultation. This lack of planning and the failure to invest in the past 15 years in more health professionals, beds, and hospitals has left the system on the edge of breakdown.

We’re spending more money per capita in this province than across the country, but what do we have to show? Long wait times in the emergency room, ambulance service delays, equipment putting people at risk, delays getting needed operations, and a decline in professional morale. To discover and correct the underlying causes of the breakdown in our health system, we need careful, comprehensive analysis of planning and planning based on evidence. My experience of 25 years in public health is quite simple. We need to carefully examine what is working for people and what is not.

We should start with the health professionals, who are quite able to identify where the system is efficient, where it is not, and have made suggestions for years. Patient experience, too, needs to be communicated and acted upon to improve the key indicators of quality, access, and the best use of resources. If I were Premier, I would reassert stability and control over this chaotic situation now with four steps.

First, I would bring together research, citizens, and professionals in Alberta from across the system to identify key barriers and opportunities for improving access, quality outcomes, and health professional well-being. On the basis of sound evidence we would develop a plan with ongoing measures of success and make appropriate changes as needed. I would ensure that all available resources, human and material, are delivering the best results.

Third, I would examine all health professionals and where they can best be used to maximize long- term benefit in the health care system, including a greater focus on prevention. Finally, I would focus more effort into the front end of our health care system, including early intervention and home supports. Albertans demand the best. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills. Olds College Fine Arts & Multi Media Centre Mr. Marz: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last Thursday was the long- awaited grand opening of the Fine Arts & Multi Media Centre in Olds at the Olds College campus.

This Fine Arts & Multi Media Centre will provide a wide range of learning opportunities to both high school and college students as well as entertainment opportuni- ties for art patrons in central Alberta. Other rural communities such as Elnora and Hanna that are linked through the Alberta SuperNet, that provides regional access to the community learning centre arts programming and large group presentations, will also benefit from this centre. The fine arts centre is the next but not the final stage of complet- ing the vision of the CLC.

The final stage will be in the opening of the new high school located just next door, and that will happen later this year. The treasure of the CLC was made possible through the co-operation and collaboration of the Chinook’s Edge school board, Olds College, the town of Olds, Mountain View c ounty, and, of course, the Alberta government, which has invested over $55 million in this project to date, as well as corporate Alberta. I’m pleased to see in the gallery today one of those members – he was introduced earlier by the hon. Minister of Education – Mr.

Jim Gibbons, superintendent of the Chinook’s Edge school board. Jim can be identified because he’s wearing the same I Love the Alberta Arts necktie today. Mr. Speaker, the Bell e-Learning Centre, which provided the linkages to other rural sites to enjoy the day’s festivities, was made possible through significant contributions from Bell Canada. The Fine Arts & Multi Media Centre has also benefited from the generosity of a $500,000 donation from TransCanada Pipelines corporation, and the centre will now be called the TransCanada Fine Arts & Multi Media Centre.

I’d like to thank all those who contributed their time, money, and expertise to this project. I’d al so like to thank my colleagues the hon. Minister of Culture and Community Spirit, the hon. Minister of Transportation, and the Member for Rocky Mountain House for being on hand to help celebrate this event and also for their past and ongoing support. The CLC is certainly a learning treasure that all Albertans will benefit from and can be proud of. Thank you. head: Oral Question Period The Speaker: First Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition.

Auditor General Office Funding Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The extent to which the government has worked to muzzle the Auditor General is clear. On November 28 last year two government members confirmed in Hansard and to the Legislative Offices Committee that the President of the Treasury Board instructed them to limit the Auditor General’s budget. To the President of the Treasury Board: at a time when Albertans want to know their money is well spent, is the minister telling members not to give the Auditor General the resources he needs? Mr. Snelgrove: That’s just blatantly untrue.

There are obvious changes in the financial position our government finds itself facing. When ministers or MLAs or the general public ask me what I see going forward, I say that I see belt-tightening, unfortunately, some from inside. But the fact of the matter is that anybody with a clue would understand that all of us in this government at every govern- ment board level, at every agency are going to have to share in the go-forward operational dollars of this government. 1:50 The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given that the impact of this direction to restrict funding to the Auditor General is a 34 per cent reduction in planned audits, including audits of Conservative friends of Horse Racing Alberta and disgraced Highwood Communications, why is the minister denying the Auditor General the means to ensure that the government uses taxpayers’ dollars in the most efficient way? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, I know we all said that we’ll try to be nice – and I will try very hard – but it’s very simple for the hon. leader to stand up and say that these are Conservative friends who we’re not auditing.

The Auditor General runs a very, very independ- ent office, and I think he would probably be insulted that the hon. Leader of the Opposition would infer that anything I do or anyone

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009220 on this government does directs him where to look, who to look at, how hard to look. We live with his reports. We don’t always agree with the suggestions from him because, obviously, we think he sometimes may be into policy, but his independence is essential, and that’s the way it’s going to stay. Dr. Swann: Well, it’s hard to be independent without money, Mr. Speaker. Another cancelled review is that of food safety in the province, basic food safety.

This review was cancelled because the President of the Treasury Board ordered government members on the commit- tee to deny the Auditor General adequate funding. Why was this funding blocked? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, once nice, twice – I did not order anyone what to vote. I have never ordered anyone what to vote at any committee I have ever attended. But the funny thing that the hon. member seems to be missing is that the Auditor General of this province says that Alberta is one of the best-audited provinces in Canada and has been for years.

So for that hon. member to make some kind of allegations that somehow I have instructed or ordered anyone on that committee or anyone to do with the Auditor General to stop, start, or overlook an audit is absolute crap. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, the November 28, ’08, Hansard would suggest otherwise. The Auditor General plays a vital role in ensuring that government spends public dollars wisely; in other words, making sure we get value for our money.

But this government is deliberately handicapping the Provincial Auditor by denying year after year his office funding for important audits. To the President of the Treasury Board: is it this minister’s policy to deny the Auditor General additional financial resource to ensure that the public doesn’t know how the money is being handled by this government? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General and his office work through the government through an independent audit committee, which I don’t chair but which I sit on.

This group of very intelligent and informed businessmen and -women deal with the Auditor General’s department, and they assess priorities. The Auditor talks to them about where he could be looking, issues that he might be going forward to. Together they put forward an audit plan for the coming year. He then has the same responsibility as every other officer of the Legislature to go back and priorize his budget to where he feels it’s the most effective, and that’s exactly how it should work. Dr. Swann: Well, Mr.

Speaker, given that on November 28 in the Legislative Offices Committee, when asked why the Auditor General funding was restricted, two government members made it clear in this Hansard that the instructions were from the President of the Treasury Board. Why were these instructions given to the Tory members? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member might want to write a letter to the hon. members he talked to. I don’t know what hon. members said in that meeting and have no question that they have said that.

But the fact is that in the context of ever suggesting that it was my right or authority to tell them how to vote at a committee meeting for any level of this thing is simply not true. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In recent years this govern- ment failed to manage infection c ontrol in the health care system: Vegreville, High Prairie, Vermilion, Lloydminster hospitals, all subject to serious health scares. Residents are worried, but the government wouldn’t fund the Auditor General investigation.

Why did the President of the Treasury Board block funds for infection control in the province? Mr. Snelgrove: You know, this goes from the sublime to the absurd. I’m not sure what the Auditor General knows about infection control in hospitals, but I know that we have a Health Quality Council, that does know quite a bit about it and does a very effective job. The other inference the hon. member makes is that somehow I would use my influence to not have them look at a hospital in my riding or any other riding. This is, Mr. Speaker, simply a dog chasing his own tail. It don’t bite.

The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Hospital Services in Banff Dr. Swann: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. At a time when Albertans have given birth to a record number of babies – in 2008, 50,543 – expectant mothers in Banff are facing what to them seems a crisis. It has been reported th at the Mineral Springs hospital is considering an indefin ite suspension of obstetric services. To the minister of health.

Over 70 women are expecting babies in the next five months in Banff, and the lack of planning by this government is directly affecting a core service. What is the minister’s response to these citizens? Mr. Liepert: Mr. Speaker, it is correct that the Alberta Health Services Board has issued a statement that said that there would be a temporary closure of obstetrical services at the Banff hospital strictly related to the fact that for the staff that are required, the decision was made that the hospital was not adequately staffed. They have attempted to recruit staff.

The decision was made that for safety reasons there would be a temporary suspension of obstetrical services. It should be noted that services are supplied at Canmore, which is some 15 minutes away. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Swann: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, there are services available beyond Banff, but has the minister considered the extra burden on an already overburdened system of delivery in Canmore and also in Calgary? Mr. Liepert: Well, Mr. Speaker, both facilities are quite capable of handling the extra cases.

I think th at it’s somewhat of a stretch to call a 15-minute drive a crisis situation. I would suggest that there are many places that residents of this province would be actually quite happy to have to only drive 15 minutes to services. Dr. Swann: Well, Mr. Speaker, without obstetric services many physicians will stop providing other services in the community. They will move to a community where they can provide the services they’re trained to deliver. What is the plan, Mr. Minister? Mr. Liepert: You know, Mr. Speaker, I don’t understand how this particular leader can make that statement.

He’s basically coming up

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 221 with a premise that something is going to happen where there is no evidence that it’s going to happen. You know, it’s typical fearmon- gering. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Norwood, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-North Hill. Assembly of Land for Large Infrastructure Projects Mr. Mason: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. This government is proposing a bill that gives them unprecedented power to control all activities on any land in the province it designates, and it would lock them in jail if they protest. Joseph Stalin would be proud.

To the Minister of Infrastructure: why is your government implementing a policy that tramples the rights of rural property owners? Mr. Hayden: Mr. Speaker, the bill is before the House. It would be inappropriate to talk about it before we’ve had an opportunity to debate the bill and take it through its proper democratic process. Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, that’s a disingenuous way to get out of answering the question about this government’s policy. It is a policy that tramples the rights of rural property owners.

It claims that this is a harmless tool which will streamline infrastruc- ture, but it threatens two-year jail terms and hundred thousand dollar fines for noncompliance. The winners in this proposal are this government’s P3 partners and private energy companies. The losers are everyday rural Albertans. To the Minister of Infrastructure: how long has it been this government’s policy to threaten dissidents with imprisonment? 2:00 Mr. Hayden: Mr.

Speaker, when we do discuss the bill, the members in this House will see that there are no additions that are any different than already exist with respect to enforcement of regulations. Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, this policy permits virtually unlimited state control over private property belonging to hard-working farmers and ranchers. This government’s policies claim that government will consult with landowners but promise jail if they don’t co-operate. Threatening to lock up owners who would stand up for their rights is undemocratic.

To the Minister of Infrastructure: why are you stripping the rights of rural Albertans? Mr. Hayden: Mr. Speaker, when the bill goes through the proper process, the members of this House will see that, in fact, this gives notice to landowners and to people far ahead of what we’ve done in the past and will be a great benefit to those landowners in Alberta. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-North Hill, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Incentive Programs for Oil and Gas Industry Mr. Fawcett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday the hon.

Minister of Energy announced a three-point incentive program to stimulate additional activity in the province’s conventional oil and gas sector. This is good news as investment by the oil and gas sector has a huge multiplier effect throughout the entire Alberta economy as our province continues to suffer the consequences of the current global economic disaster. Could the hon. minister provide this House with the rationale behind his three-point incentive program and what Albertans can expect to see as a result of its implementation? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Knight: Well, thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker. Most certainly, the programs that were announced yesterday have one and only one goal, and that is to put Albertans back on the job this coming year. These initiatives are intended to keep drilling and service crews at work. Remember that the only time that any access to these programs takes place is when Albertans are at work. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Fawcett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Governments around the world have tossed around unprecedented and substantial amounts of taxpayers’ money over the last six months in the form of corporate bailouts and economic stimulus packages.

I’m curious how yester- day’s announcement compares to these strategies that have been implemented by other governments in jurisdictions across the world. To the same minister: how much money will yesterday’s announce- ment cost taxpayers? Mr. Knight: Mr. Speaker, there is no cost to taxpayers for these programs. Unlike other jurisdictions the member has mentioned, this government is not spending taxpayers’ dollars. Rather, while the pressures we are facing are outside of our control, we are using the means that we have available to us to address pressures on our province’s key industry.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Fawcett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. While the announcement yesterday was welcome news by many in the junior oil and gas sector investment community, I have heard from some that they are concerned about the frequency of changes to the royalty structure in the junior oil and gas investment environment in the last year. I’m hearing that in a time of great uncertainty the sector needs stability. To the same minister: how does the recent announcement create an environment of stability and certainty within the oil and gas sector? Mr. Knight: Mr.

Speaker, again, let me be very clear about this. The announcements made yesterday have nothing to do with the royalty structure. The announcements made yesterday were in response to a global economic situation that is not of our making. What we’ve done here is use the levers we have available to us in the government of Alberta to put Albertans back to work. Over the long term we continue to look at the investment climate in Alberta and elsewhere. What we’ve done here is put Albertans to work, and it’s very important from that point of view. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, followed by the hon.

Member for Drayton Valley-Calmar. Cleanup of Orphan Wells Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With the prosperity of our oil and gas wells comes a price: thousands of abandoned wells, pipelines, and facilities with a billion dollar cleanup price tag. The companies get their resource and walk away. The big question is: who will pay to clean up these sites? My questions are to the Minister of Environment. Can the minister tell us why taxpayers are paying $30 million to clean up orphan wells? They mess it up; we pay to clean it up. Mr. Renner: Mr. Speaker, there are two reasons.

First of all, this government is committed to keeping Albertans at work. That’s the

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009222 underlying reason for having this expenditure put in place at this point in time. There are thousands of service rigs and individuals that work on those service rigs that are looking for work at this point in time. So that’s part of the reason. The other part of the reason is because it’s an opportunity for us to address some long-standing issues that, yes, industry is responsi- ble for, but at $10 million a year it’s going to take a lot longer than what we can accomplish at $40 million.

Ms Blakeman: To the same minister: given that the $30 million taxpayer subsidy is only for the upstream oil and gas industry, are taxpayers going to be on the hook for the downstream facilities as well? Mr. Renner: Let’s be clear, Mr. Speaker. Companies that are currently operating in this province are and will continue to be responsible for the reclamation of everything that they do. Orphan wells are different.

Orphan wells are wells that were drilled long ago, and for numerous reasons the company that was responsible for drilling those wells is no longer in business, has gone bankrupt, or for whatever reason is not in a position to be held responsible and liable. Industry pays into a fund to address orphan wells. All this does is speed up the rate at which those wells are reclaimed. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you.

To the Minister of Energy: given that for ’07-08 industry contributed only $13.6 million to the orphan wells fund and there are over 37,000 abandoned sites, for which the ERCB estimates that more than $9 billion will be needed to reclaim them all, why is the fund set up to only collect a fraction of the cost of what is needed? Mr. Knight: Mr. Speaker, again, it’s interesting that we stand and answer questions relative to newspaper articles and articles that other people publish relative to the business related to energy in the province of Alberta.

It’s very true that there is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $12 million or $13 million a year collected. The fund actually has about $110 million in it currently, and they spend about $12 million a year working on orphan wells. The Orphan Well Association, of course, directs that work, a much different situation that we’re talking about here. These are not abandonments. These are orphaned wells. There is an obvious disconnect between what the member is talking about and what it is we’re doing. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Drayton Valley-Calmar, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar.

Incentive Programs for Oil and Gas Industry (continued) Mrs. McQueen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know that many of my constituents and their families will be pleased with yesterday’s announcement of an incentive program for the energy sector. This sends a very positive signal to Albertans who are concerned about their jobs during this economic downturn. My questions today are to the Minister of Energy. Do we have any idea what impact the energy incentive program will have on job creation? Mr. Knight: Well, yes. Mr.

Speaker, we know that with the incentives that we had in front of us yesterday, drilling activity should be buoyed by a bout the am ount that we see the decline projected. There’s a projected decline from the original estimates of about 27 per cent this year over last. It relates to about 20,000 jobs. PSAC has indicated in a news release, which I will table at the appropriate time, that this relates to about 20,000 workers in their membership back in the field at work. Mrs. McQueen: Well, that’s certainly good news, and I’ll take it back to my constituents.

My constituency of Drayton Valley-Calmar and the hon. mem- ber’s constituency of Whitecourt-Ste. Anne make up many of the orphan wells in this province. Can you tell me how this announce- ment as it pertains to orphan wells will help create jobs but also reduce the environmental footprint? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Knight: Mr. Speaker, again, thank you very much. It is refreshing to know that there are members in the House that understand the situation that we’re talking about here.

This is a one- time investment that will help reduce the environmental footprint created through the abandonment of decades-old sites by aiding and returning them to their former state. In doing that, what we do is hire additional service rigs, additional equipment operators, and provide employment across Alberta for these individuals. 2:10 The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. McQueen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My final question to the same minister: can the minister please advise the Assembly how we will know if the incentive program has been successful? Mr. Knight: Well, again, Mr.

Speaker, in the end success will be measured in the jobs created and most certainly in money continuing to be spent in the province of Alberta. Even more success can be measured by new resource pools brought on by this particular initiative. Long after these incentive programs have ended and have been forgotten, we will continue to collect royalties on these pools that will produce long after these incentives are gone. A win-win situation: with these actions we save jobs now, and we will continue to collect resources in the future. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, followed by the hon.

Member for Calgary-Bow. Workplace Health and Safety Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thirty-four per cent of the audit projects between October 2008 and March 31, 2010, by the office of the Auditor General have been deferred or cancelled. One of the audit projects deferred until April of next year is on workplace health and safety. My first questi on is to the Minister of Employ- ment and Immigration.

Given that workplace fatalities have risen 34 per cent in the last three years, what is the Minister of Employment and Immigration doing to have this necessary audit by the office of the Auditor General done right now? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, I’m not the one that controls what the Auditor General chooses to audit. All I want to indicate is that workplace incidents, whether they’re fatalities or injuries, are totally unacceptable. We recognize that as a ministry. We have inspectors of our own on-site.

We do go out to do spot inspections, and, yes, we work with those individuals that are poor performers to try to improve their performance. As a ministry we take a very, very

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 223 active role in trying to minimize any of those activities from happening. Mr. MacDonald: Again, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister. One hundred and sixty-six workers died last year in Alberta b ecause of their jobs. Why did the government limit the Auditor General’s resources, preventing a necessary audit at this time which would ensure safe and healthy workplaces throughout the province? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in my earlier response, I don’t control the audits that the Auditor General may choose to do.

I do want as well to indicate that although our numbers are climbing with the amount of Albertans working in this particular province, our rates are pretty constant in terms of our historical averages. Our disabling injury rates are actually decreasing per 100 full-time jobs as well as our lost-time claim rates. Those numbers are going down, and we’re still attempting to do better. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: how can the hon. minister justify sporting around the globe at taxpayers’ expense when the office of the Auditor General has to defer for one full year a life-saving audit on workplace health and safety throughout this province? Mr. Goudreau: Well, Mr. Speaker, those are two different priori- ties. Inasmuch as we are very, very concerned about workplace fatalities and injuries, we do have some priorities in terms of making sure that we have the right people at the right place with the right skills to do the work that’s expected in the province of Alberta. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Calgary-Bow, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Incentive Programs for Oil and Gas Industry (continued) Ms DeLong: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Our government collects zero corporate taxes from the oil and gas that companies do not produce and sell. Our government collects zero personal taxes from jobs that are not there. My question is to the Minister of Energy. How much royalty does your department collect on wells that are not drilled? Mr. Knight: Mr.

Speaker, if I understand the question correctly, the amount of royalty that Albertans would get from wells that are not drilled is zero. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms DeLong: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. That was why I was so pleased to hear about the programs that were announced yesterday and wonder if these programs that were ann ounced yesterday are related to the other programs that were announced last year for deep drilling and transitional royalties. Mr. Knight: Mr. Speaker, the short answer to that is no. Again I’ve got to be very clear.

These incentives that were discussed yesterday and the programs released yesterday are in response to a very steep decline in oil and natural gas prices and, most certainly, a squeeze in the global credit markets. These programs, these incentives are in response to a crisis that we have today, and they are not in any way, shape, or form attached to the royalty structure we have in place. The Speaker: The hon. member? Ms DeLong: No further questions. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona.

Secondary Ticket Sales Ms Blakeman: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. The prohibition against ticket resales has been removed from the new Film and Video Classification Act with the government arguing that consum- ers are protected under the Fair Trading Act, and this is simply not true. The Fair Trading Act only ensures that tickets are legitimate and that there is disclosure for why they’re charging such high prices. This is not the same thing as protecting consumers from the ticket reselling practices of Ticketmaster.

I’ll ask again to the Minister of Service Alberta: what is the minister doing beyond daily monitoring to protect Alberta ticket buyers? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs. Klimchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, daily monitoring is ongoing. As well, with respect to the Fair Trading Act there is protection for consumers under that if a consumer has been misled or been sold a fake ticket or other unfair trade practices. What’s really important here is that the conversation is happening. We need to hear from people out there who are being misled or consumers who are not getting the right information.

That’s why this conversa- tion needs to happen, so we can do the right thing and handle it properly. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Well, thank you. To the Minister of Culture and Community Spirit. Ontario’s act actually protects ticket buyers and artists and workers by prohibiting secondary ticket sales, so why doesn’t the minister introduce legislation to do the same thing here? Mr. Blackett: Well, Mr. Speaker, right now we’re going through the regulations as opposed to Bill 18 before we have it proclaimed. What we have done is that we’ve talked to Ticketmaster, and we’ve had indications from them.

We asked them to cease and desist. We did that months ago. TicketsNow is not operating in Alberta. None of our artists or our consumers are at risk on this particular issue. Ms Blakeman: Boy, did you get taken. Back to the same minister: if he doesn’t want to bring in legisla- tion that prohibits ticket reselling, why doesn’t the minister take the same steps that the Attorney General from New Jersey took; that is, to stop Ticketmaster from steering customers to its secondary sites, they legislated that Ticketmaster could not resell tickets on TicketsNow until after a delay of up to one year.

Why don’t you consider that? Mr. Blackett: Well, I will take that under advisement. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie.

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009224 Long-term Care Ms Notley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last January the Premier said, and I quote: “Our government will invest $300 million for 600 new beds . . . in seven new long-term care centres across the province.” A year later this promise is broken. Not one single new bed exists, and the government’s continuing care strategy includes no increase to the number of long-term care beds for at least six years. To the Minister of Health and Wellness: when hundreds of seniors are lining the hallways of our hospitals waiting for care, how can you show them so much disrespect? Mr. Liepert: Well, Mr. Speaker, the

preamble was, as is customary, not correct. There are a number of projects around this province in long-term care that are under way. I would encourage the member to leave her office in the Legislature and travel to some of the communities west of Edmonton and down to Calgary. There are several facilities that are under construction. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Notley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. None of these new facilities are part of what was announced. Now, approximately 750 seniors are taking up acute-care hospital beds because they’re on the waiting list for long-term care.

Mean- while, the government is planning no new beds that will provide the level of care these patients require. These seniors don’t need new apartments with new fees; they need qualified care. To the minister of health again: will you admit that the only way your strategy can succeed in ge tting these seniors out of hospitals is by wa iting for those currently in long-term care to pass away? 2:20 Mr. Liepert: No, I won’t, Mr. Speaker, because what we are doing and what we will be doing – and I would encourage the member to listen carefully to the minister of finance’s budget delivery on April 7.

We don’t believe that the answer to those particular patients is to simply to house them, institutionalize them in long-term care. We want to provide some options. We will be ensuring that there are additional dollars for things like home care, where these particular patients can actually go back to where they want to be, not where these two want to send them to. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Notley: Yeah. Well, indeed, yesterday when asked about the 600 long-term care beds he promised Albertans, the Premier started talking about housing.

Home care won’t cut it for the 1,500 Alberta seniors waiting for long-term care beds and neither w ill new apartments. Alberta’s senior population is growing, and so is the long-term care wait-list. To the minister of health: wouldn’t it be wiser to build the new long-term care beds you promised rather than leaving it to overcrowded hospitals and overworked Alberta families to do your job for you? Mr. Liepert: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat what I said in my first answer. We are. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Currie.

Research and Innovation Funding Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I attended the Ingenuity in Our Community event last week in Edmonton, where the government provided an update on the innovation framework. Given the state of the global economy I’ve heard questions about whether we should be rethinking some current initiatives that could perhaps wait until after the economic storm has passed. My questions are to the Minister of Advanced Education and Technol- ogy.

Could the minister please explain why he’s proceeding with his work to define the role and mandates within Alberta’s research and innovation system at this time? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Horner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a very good question. Given the current economic situation that we find ourselves with globally, I think it was actually quite a good vision of the Premier to embark upon this kind of realignment and refocusing of our research system and our research and innovation framework. Last year is when we started this.

What that’s going to do is give us a leg up on many other jurisdictions around the world that are currently looking at how they can become more accountable, more focused, and more aligned, and that’s exactly where we’re headed. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Once again to the same minister: the audience last week was very supportive of the youth techno entrepreneurship program, but given the circumstances would the $3 million be better spent on bolstering another part of the research and innovation system? Mr. Horner: Mr.

Speaker, the youth of Alberta are the future of Alberta. The youth of Alberta are the future entrepreneurs of Alberta, and our techno entrepreneur program, which was part of what came forward in the task fo rce last year, is something that we’re not going to pull back on because it’s exactly the type of investment we should be making in this type of climate. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My final question to the same minister. There seems to be a great deal of emphasis on entrepreneurs and not so much on the research side of things.

Is this a signal that Alberta is moving away from its past support for research? Mr. Horner: Mr. Speaker, I do hear this question a fair bit; that is, are we moving away from the tremendous strengths that we have in basic research in our postsecondary institutions and our research institutions? The answer is absolutely not. What we are doing is building upon that strength and building upon the areas of focus and alignment that we have so that we can take that basic research and turn it into the good that it should do for society. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie, followed by the hon.

Member for Lacombe-Ponoka. Homelessness Initiatives for First Nations People Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are to the Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs. The aboriginal commu- nity accounts for about 5 per cent of Edmonton’s population but constitutes a startling 40 per cent of Edmonton’s homeless popula- tion. The statistics for Calgary are similar. The difference, it seems

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 225 to me, between the two cities is that Edmonton’s new 10-year plan to end homelessness proposes programs that are specifically geared to housing and supports for aboriginal people, and Calgary’s plan seems not to do that. Does the minister agree that for any 10-year plan to end homelessness in Alberta to be successful, the plan should include culturally specific programs to address housing and supports for homeless First Nations people? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs. Fritz: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That’s a very important question.

Yes, the Edmonton 10-year-plan, which was just released, as you know, approximately three weeks ago, has identified that the aboriginal population in Edmonton that is homeless is at 40 per cent when, really, it’s 5 per cent of the Edmonton population overall. I do agree, as I’ve indicated even that day when we did the announce- ment, hon. member, that I very strongly support culturally sensitive housing programs, and that would include those for the aboriginal community. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the minister for that answer.

What is the minister doing to ensure that the 10- year plans that have already been adopted by cities or municipalities have programs that are specifically designed to get First Nations people out of homelessness and into housing? Mrs. Fritz: Well, Mr. Speaker, the 10-year plans that we’ve received as a ministry have been from the seven major municipali- ties in the province, which would include Lethbridge and Red Deer, Edmonton, Calgary, the ones that the member has named. It’s really the local communities that put forward what is important in their communities into their plans.

Edmonton has addressed the aborigi- nal housing com ponent, and as I said, I will be supporting the Edmonton plan strongly. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, given that we are still waiting for the release of the province’s 10-year plan to end homelessness – and maybe the minister can shed some light on when we might expect to see it – will the minister tell us what programs, if any, are being developed at the provincial level that specifically address the overrepresentation of aboriginals in Alberta’s homeless population? Mrs. Fritz: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the provincial 10-year plan to end homelessness will identify long-term strategies, as I’ve indicated here in the Assembly before. I am looking forward to that release once the government process has been completed.

As for the aboriginal community over the past three years, we’ve allocated about $45 million through a federal program to the communities overall, and they’ve been for student housing at Mount Royal College and other colleges; also for aboriginal home ownership programs for aboriginal communities – some are applying for Habitat for Humanity, for example – a number of ways that we’re assisting communities with that money. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lacombe-Ponoka, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Cattle Age Verification Mr. Prins: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As part of the Alberta govern- ment’s ongoing plan to assist our livestock industry, a second portion of a benefit will be available to Alberta livestock producers. In order to receive this benefit, cattle producers were required to age verify their 2008 calf crop by the end of 2008. My first question is to the minister of agriculture. How much of our calf crop has been age verified to date? Mr. Groeneveld: Mr. Speaker, we certainly are pleased with the response from the Alberta cattle producers. We now have about one and a half million, or 83 per cent, of our 2008 calf crop age verified.

All livestock producers who meet the requirements, including premise identification, receive a second benefit under the AFRP 2 in early March. We now have a total of a hundred million dollars which is available to the qualified producers. Mr. Prins: Well, thank you very much for that answer. Mr. Speaker, my next question to the same minister. I know that there are some producers that have questioned the value of the age verification program. Can the minister tell us how age verification will be of benefit to this industry? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Groeneveld: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, certainly, there are some questions about it, but simply put, age verification will increase our market access. Key markets, including many of the Asian markets, insist that our animals now be age verified. The federal agriculture minister, Ritz, was recently able to secure some market access in principle for the sale of Canadian beef to Hong Kong. This is a staged approach, and it will open other markets for age verified animals only. Just as important, probably, in the event of a disease outbreak age verifi cation will help us identify the animals at risk. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

Prins: Thank you again, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: age verification is now mandatory under the Animal Health Act, and I would wonder what assistance is available to producers to help them to comply with this mandatory function. The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you. Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. Since October Agriculture and Rural Development field staff have been assisting producers age verify their animals and complete their premise ID identification.

I believe Alberta ag at this particular time has about 61 field staff available for them, so help certainly is available over the phone or in person by calling the Ag-Info Centre at 310-FARM. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Nose Hill. Early Childhood Services Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Part of the Minister of Education’s mandate as specified by the Premier is to “increase . . . early intervention initiatives.” One such initiative, early childhood services, provides programming for children under the age of six.

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009226 But a letter a parent received from the minister states, “The School Act does not give [the minister] the authority to review decisions related to the special education programming of a child in an ECS program.” To the Minister of Education: if the minister is not responsible for ECS programming, will the minister please tell us who is? 2:30 Mr. Hancock: Well, luckily, Mr. Speaker, this government works well together.

I work with the ministry of health and the ministry of children’s services to make sure that children have access to the services that they need not only to do well but to be ready for school at an appropriate time. That means early diagnosis, that means talking about early childhood programming, and it means co- operating with our school boards, many of whom have put forward programming in the areas of early childhood work. There are a lot of people in this province who care about kids, and a lot of them are working together to make good things happen. Mr.

Chase: I am pleased to hear that that co-ordination exists. I’d like to see concrete examples of it. I’ve asked questions to the Minister of Children and Youth Services, who’s passed it on to the minister of health, and you’re sort of flipping it back to both of them, so I’m still not sure. Does the minister acknowledge that children younger than six years old should be protected with the same rights as children who are six years old or older, and who’s going to ensure that that protection occurs? Mr. Hancock: Mr. Speaker, that’s a very broad question.

Should children under age six have the same rights as children over age six? Absolutely. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Chase: Thank you. Inappropriate clustering, misuses of funding, and record mismanagement are just a few problems this particular parent has had to face recently with the ECS programming without any course of redress. Will the minister admit that the School Act must be changed to better protect children under the age of six? Specific care. Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr.

Speaker, luckily, we’re engaged in a process of Inspiring Education, which is going to review entirely the process of providing educational opportun ities to students in this province to make sure that every child has the opportunity to maximize his or her potential. In the course of that process, as I’ve indicated both in the Legislature and outside the Legislature, we’ll be looking at the legislative framework for education, and we’ll be happy to consider all aspects of education and all potential amend- ments that might be needed to the act.

I’d invite the hon. member to engage his community in the discussion and to bring forward suggestions as to how we might do things better. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Nose Hill, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Municipal Taxation Dr. Brown: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All of my questions are for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Some cities are suggesting that they need to keep all of the education property taxes that they’re collecting in order to meet the growing demands of municipal budgets. Can the minister please advise the House whether he’s contemplating any such change? Mr.

Danyluk: Well, Mr. Speaker, we all benefit from the funds collected for public education. Let me be very clear that education taxes are not municipal revenue. They are collected on behalf of this province. The funding of education through the general revenue fund and property taxes strikes a balance: property taxes, approxi- mately 31 per cent; GRF, approximately 69 per cent. There are no plans to change. Dr. Brown: Mr. Speaker, many municipalities are feeling budgetary pressures associated with increased costs and the deteriorating economy.

Can the minister please tell us how municipalities can manage these challenges? Mr. Danyluk: Well, Mr. Speaker, strong municipalities are the key ingredient to strong communities. One of the ways, of course, is the municipal sustainability initiative. But this government is support- ing municipalities, supporting them through transportation grants, infrastructure, health projects, savings through the health care premiums, ambulance savings. Municipalities need to prioritize, and they have the responsibility to the citizens of their municipality to prioritize. Dr. Brown: Mr.

Speaker, recently the city of Calgary pr oposed implementing new ways for municipalities to raise revenues, including a real estate transfer tax. Can the minister tell the House whether there are any plans to amend the Municipal Government Act to allow any new fees or taxes by the municipalities? Mr. Danyluk: Well, Mr. Speaker, the simple answer is no. We are not considering providing new taxation powers, especially in these economic times. We will continue to talk with municipalities about the importance of sustainability, their challenges, and possible solutions.

But in the end, no, we are not considering providing new taxation powers. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Mackay. Syncrude Royalty Agreement Dr. Taft: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. In the private-sector world corporate reports to shareholders must meet the test of full, plain, and true disclosure. This government, sadly, has no such require- ment. Information filed by one of Syncrude’s shareholders indicates that the royalty deal Syncrude just negotiated with this government is worth many billions in increas ed profits.

To the Minister of Energy: what was the makeup of the government team that negoti- ated this deal? Who were its technical leaders, and who were its political leaders? Mr. Knight: Well, Mr. Speaker, as has been the case over a number of years, the people that are responsible for negotiating and continu- ing the health of the Crown agreements on behalf of the province of Alberta are individuals in the Department of Energy. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Taft: Well, thanks, Mr. Speaker. This government was hosed by Syncrude negotiators.

It ignored the advice of its own experts and gave Syncrude an unbelievably generous deal. Again to the

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 227 Minister of Energy: did the Department of Energy conduct detailed analysis of the impact of this royalty deal before agreeing to it, and if so, did he accept the full and complete advice of his department officials in agreeing with this deal? Mr. Knight: Again, it’s interesting to note that a number of individuals, and particularly some of the individuals here in the House, think that it’s just kind of a simple little arrangement when you go and make a Crown agreement relative to a 40-, 50-, 60-, 80- year business proposal for the people of the province of Alberta.

These agreements are very complicated and complex agreements. Have I had an opportunity to sit with people from both sides of the negotiating? Have I sat at the table with people on both sides of the negotiations when it is going on? No. But have I accepted and read and concurred with people from both sides of the negotiating team? Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have done. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Taft: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

Given that the President of the Treasury Board has directed government members to limit the Auditor General’s budget, leading to a deferral of the audit of royalty collections, will the President of the Treasury Board take this multibillion dollar issue seriously and request the Auditor General to conduct a special audit of the royalty collection system? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr.

Speaker, from Hansard from our Auditor General, who says, “Alberta is unique also in that it is the only jurisdiction that publicly reports on every ministry.” A little further down the line it says: where we go more in depth beyond the financial statements and into the actual operations of an organization and how they conduct their work. We do . . . more [than a] thorough examination . . . Since I am statutorily required to do all the financial statement audits, then I’m only left with what is left over to do the systems audits.

Therefore, we have to reflect upon that as to how much you can do in the year with the resources that you have available. From Mr. Fred Dunn. The Speaker: Hon. minister, that was a direct quotation from what I believe to be a document that already is the purview of the House and has been tabled in the House before. Is this correct? Mr. Snelgrove: Yes. The Speaker: Okay. It doesn’t have to be done again, then. The hon. Member for Calgary-Mackay. Education Consultation Ms Woo-Paw: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Some people may say education in Alberta has sometimes been everyone’s whipping boy: reports of students failing, testing stressing students out, and parents writing letters to media and trustees saying that they do not under- stand what their child is learning in school, all at a time when according to some corners about 70 per cent of our population do not have children in school. My question is to the Minister of Educa- tion. Earlier you introduced a number of individuals who are serving on the steering committee for Inspiring Education: A Dialogue with Albertans.

They are well-respected members coming from many parts of Alberta. Are you expecting these people to solve the problems of the education system today? Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it should be clear that Albertans have a right to be very justly proud of the education system they have today. By some accounts, very credible interna- tional accounts, we rank among the top five in the world.

In fact, people come from all over the world to take a look at what we’re doing here in terms of our curriculum, our assessment processes and accountability processes, our t eacher education and teachers, the standardized curriculum. There are many things that speak up for the value of education today. There are issues, obviously, but our committee is about tomorrow, about the long term. 2:40 The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Woo-Paw: Thank you. Again to the Minister of Education: is it wise to be undertaking such an ambitious task at a time of economic uncertainty? Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr. Speaker, absolutely.

A time of economic uncertainty is a time when you invest in looking to the long term and the big picture and where the province is going so that you can be ready and have your citizens ready to engage in the opportunities that they have for tomorrow. That’s the important part: to make sure that our children and their children have the opportunity to be Albertans tomorrow and to seize the opportunities at home and in the world. Looking at what we’re doing, the Inspiring Education process and getting the public to understand the value of education to the future are absolutely essential.

Ms Woo-Paw: My final question is again to the same minister. Is this process a roundabout way to eliminate locally elected sc hool boards and establish a school superboard to run everything out of one office? Mr. Hancock: No, Mr. Speaker. In fact, that’s a question that was raised with me at the Alberta School Boards Association and many other venues. This is about public engagement in a discussion, a dialogue of Alberta. It’s about public involvement. A locally elected school board should be part of that process of involving the public in the discussion.

The Alberta School Boards Association in the next week or so is holding a conference to do exactly that. The Public School Boards’ Association is engaged as well. This is about involving the public. However, the discussion will be about the future of education, and obviously part of that will be governance structure and the appropri- ate governance structure. Form will follow function. But, Mr. Speaker, it’s not about eliminating the school boards; it’s about involving the public in education. The Speaker: Hon. members, that was 106 exchanges today.

In 30 seconds from now I’ll call upon the first of three remaining members to participate in Members’ Statements. head: Members’ Statements (continued) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Strathmore-Brooks. Strathmore Youth Exceptional Service Awards Mr. Doerksen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure today to acknowledge the Strathmore youth exceptional service awards that were celebrated and presented on Saturday, February 21, 2009. This marked the fifth anniversary of the awards, that were initiated thanks

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009228 to the inspiration of society president Valerie Heck. This year 10 young people were nominated for and received the awards based on their significant and exemplary volunteer service in the Strathmore community. Thirty-six young people have been recognized in the five-year history of the awards, ranging in age from 4 to 18 years. Sponsored by local businesses and service clubs, the awards highlight the positive volunteer actions of young people in a wide variety of areas, young people whose actions and commitment are the fabric of what strong communities are made of.

I highlight the initiative of 9-year- old Erin Waterchief, who, among other achievements, collected over $100 at her last birthday party in lieu of gifts. With her young friends Erin donated and delivered the money to the Strathmore hospital. Volunteer services at the community library, the seniors’ lodge, and fundraising for a skateboard park were among other achieve- ments highlighted during the awards. Mr.

Speaker, at a time when some are concerned about the loss of commitment to volunteer service, I am proud to congratulate the Strathmore Youth Excep- tional Service Award Society and the 10 young nominees they recognized last week. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Hays. National Social Work Week Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m very pleased to rise today and recognize social workers in our province during National Social Work Week, which is March 1 to 7. Social workers are heroes in our society.

They’re ordinary people who do the extraordi- nary by responding to children and families in crisis, counselling patients in hospitals, giving guidance to our children and youth in schools and universities, and working with families in family courts and elsewhere. Their contributions to our communities have far- reaching and positive effects on Albertans from all walks of life, and we are a stronger province because of their vital care and support. However, their work is often behind the scenes and isn’t always acknowledged.

I applaud the work social workers do each and every day to ensure that Albertans are receiving the help they need to be successful. I hope that this week and throughout the year we can all take the time to say thank you to social workers for the valuable role they play. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mackay. Multilingualism Ms Woo-Paw: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to speak on the value of learning international languages.

It has been long recog- nized that language is one of the most powerful instruments for communication, the preservation and development of our tangible and intangible heritage, and positive human connections. As our world and societies become increasingly pluralistic, global, and multilingual, there’s a corresponding increase in the recognition and appreciation for the benefits of learning international languages and maintaining heritage, or mother, languages. This is deemed so important for human development that UNESCO proclaimed February 21 of each year as International Mother Language Day 10 years ago. Mr.

Speaker, having a multilingual population yields benefits in all aspects of life in our society. It helps learners to develop greater ability in thinking, problem solving, as well as improved ability to learn. Multilingualism is also linked to reduction in school dropout rates and enhanced social integration. In our global knowledge- based economy the ability to speak in multiple languages is crucial for conducting business in the international community and critical for advancement of business goals. Having a shared language also strengthens family connections at home as well as relationships around the globe.

The United Nations also recognizes multilingualism as a way to demonstrate respect and inclusion and develop better understanding and appreciation for those from different cultures, countries, and nationalities, which in turn helps reduce racism, xenophobia, and intolerance. Here in Alberta, Mr. Speaker, international and heritage languages are taught to students in both our public schools and community- based language schools.

At the community level over 40 languages are taught to over 12,000 students every weekend by many dedicated leaders, teachers, and volunteers from our diverse cultural and linguistic communities. As an Albertan who has devoted more than a decade to running community-based language programs and raised three multilingual young Albertans, I look forward to seeing greater development in international programs in Alberta in the years to come. Thank you. head: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees The Speaker: The chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Mr. MacDonald: Yes.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts I am pleased to table five copies of the committee’s report on its 2008 activities. Additional copies of the report have also been provided for all Members of the Legislative Assembly. Thank you. head: Presenting Petitions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Strathcona. Mr. Quest: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have one petition this afternoon. This petition is signed by 770 individuals, many of whom are residents of the Sherwood Park and the Strathcona constituency.

It reads: We, the undersigned residents of Alberta, petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government to introduce legislation that will ensure the following: 1. where a person who holds a graduated driver’s licence is operating a motor vehicle that is involved in a collision resulting in serious injury or death, that person’s licence shall be suspended immediately and notification shall be provided to the Alberta Transportation Safety Board; and 2. the Board shall immediately conduct a review of the incident to determine whether the person’s licence should be reinstated, and if so, under what conditions.

Thank you. head: Tabling Returns and Reports The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Mr. Chase: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am tabling the correspondence to and from the Minister of Education which I referenced during question period today. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona.

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 229 Ms Notley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have four tablings today. The first two relate to documents referred to in my questions. I’d like to table the appropriate number of copies of excerpts from the government’s December continuing care strategy, which related to my questions today, wherein the government’s plan to build no new long-term care beds is clearly stated.

My second tabling is the appropriate number of copies of speaking notes for the Premier dated January 29, 2008, available on his website, in which he promises that his government will spend $300 million on 600 new long-term care beds and more than 200 replace- ment beds. I’d also like to table the appropriate number of copies of a news release from Public Interest Alberta regarding the opposition expressed by a number of seniors’ groups to the government’s continuing care strategy. Thank you. The Speaker: Are there others? The hon. Minister of Energy. 2:50 Mr. Knight: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

As I’d indicated earlier in question period, I would like to take this opportunity to table a news release from the Petroleum Services Association of Canada in which they indicate that the Alberta energy initiatives program will save jobs. head: Tablings to the Clerk The Clerk: I wish to advise the House that the following documents were deposited with the office of the Clerk. On behalf of the hon. Ms Redford, Minister of Justice and Attorney General, response to a question raised by Mr. Taylor, hon.

Member for Calgary-Currie, during Oral Question Period on March 2, 2009, regarding fires caused by the negligence of a landlord. On behalf of the hon. Mr. Lindsay, Solicitor General and Minister of Public Security, victims services branch status report 2007-2008. head: Orders of the Day head: Committee of Supply [Mr. Cao in the chair] The Chair: The chair would like to call the Committee of Supply to order. The hon. President of the Treasury Board. head: Supplementary Supply Estimates 2008-09, No. 2 General Revenue Fund Mr. Snelgrove: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to move the 2008-09 supplementary supply estimates, No. 2, for the general revenue fund. These estimates will provide additional spending authority to three departments of the government and the office of the Auditor General. When passed, the estimates will authorize an increase of about $128 million in voted expense and equipment inventory purchases. These estimates are consistent with the third- quarter fiscal update, which updated the 2008-09 fiscal plan for all government entities.

While speci fic ministers can speak to the details related to their individual budgets, I can outline the overall requests for additional spending authority.

The increases include $70 million for higher than anticipated producer claims for the 2007-08 year of the Alberta farm recovery program, phase 1; $49.7 million for employment and training programs, health benefits, and income supports; $8 million for the off-site service work for the Fort McMurray community develop- ment plan; and $750,000 to the Auditor General for increased audits and requirements from the March 2008 restructuring of the govern- ment and several special-purpose audits requested by the Legisla- ture. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Chair: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Mr.

Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It is a pleasure, an honour, an experience is perhaps the best word, to rise and kick off the debate of the 2008-2009 supplementary supply estimates, version 2.0, I guess we could call it because we dealt with version 1.0 on November 26. That was worth pretty close to a billion dollars, and now we’re looking at adding another $128,477,000 to that. The hon. President of the Treasury Board gave a brief, specific breakdown of where that money would go. Over the course of this afternoon, Mr.

Chair, we will debate this further, and we will see what kinds of questions we can come up with and what kinds of answers the government can provide to our questions. Of course, the first question for the 2008-2009 supplementary supply estimates, No. 2, is: how come we keep doing this over and over again, at least once a year, often twice a year, going back 10 years now, going back $13,843,000,000 worth of additional money requested within the budget year? I mean, Mr. Chair, I’m sure there was a time when we actually had budgets that small to get us through a year in the province of Alberta. Dr.

Taft: Not long ago. Mr. Taylor: My colleague from Edmonton-Riverview says that it actually wasn’t that long ago although I must confess that I have no historical memory from being here in this House of a time when the budget was only $13.8 b illion. The fi rst budget that I think we debated after I was elected in 2004 – that would be the fiscal 2005- 2006 budget, I guess – was about $25 billion. About this time last year, a little later than this, we were debating the ’08-09 budget for $37 billion, $12 billion, or nearly 50 per cent, more than it was just four years earlier. Mr.

Chair, on top of that – on top of that – we need to keep going back to the well, you know. Mr. Chair, I’ve got two kids in university. I know a little something about the experience of being the bank of mom and dad. I know what it’s like. If my kids kept coming back to me the way this government keeps coming back to this Legislature with its hand out and its pockets turned out, pleading poverty and saying, “Please, sir, I need more,” I think I’d tell them to go get a job. Ms Pastoor: You might tell them to get a job. Mr. Taylor: Exactly. Go stand out on 17th Avenue in Calgary with a squeegee.

Ms Pastoor: Teach them how to budget. Mr. Taylor: Well, yeah. My hon. colleague from Lethbridge-East actually just nailed it there, Mr. Chairman. What I would do, what I have done, is teach our kids how to budget. Mr. Denis: How conservative. Very conservative. Mr. Taylor: That from a former Liberal, a former Saskatchewan Liberal, the Member for Calgary-Egmont. I’ll take that comment about conservatism with a lowercase “c”. [interjections] Oh, the sparrows are starting to chirp again from the other side.

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009230 An Hon. Member: Absolution is good for the soul. Mr. Taylor: Bless you, my son. There is just no way around the fact that this is like the Seinfeld show. It just went on and on. It was never about anything in particular. It was about the same thing every episode. Nothing every really changed. Nothing ever really was accomplished. No progress was ever really made. No accountants were apparently hurt in the making of this movie. The simple, sad, inescapable fact of the matter, Mr.

Chairman, is that this government cannot live within its means, cannot budget properly for a 12-month period, and that is why it continues to come back to this House once or twice a year asking for more. Now, in the grander context of the requests for more this is only a request for a little more – a little, tiny bit more – just $128,477,000. Not much more than beer money when you’re talking about it in the context of a $37 billion budget.

But the combination of this increase that’s being asked for now and the increase that was approved in November and the original budget of $37 billion – and we’re not quite finished this year yet. We’ve got – what? – 27 days left in it. I think this brings the actual increase in expenditures from fiscal ’07-08 closer to 13 per cent than the 9.7 per cent increase in spending that was advertised when we did the budget debate last year.

Of course, that budget – we’re coming to the end of that budget period – estimated spending increases of 12 per cent over the next three years and admitted that that was going to be front-loaded onto this year’s budget b ecause of a pretty massive increase in capital spending that would level off over the years to come. 3:00 There was some acknowledgement in Budget 2008, Mr. Chair- man, that going forward from that point, things were a little dicey; it was going to be a little difficult to predict what the world economy was going to do.

I quote from the fiscal overview from Budget 2008. “The actual surplus over the next three years will depend on factors largely outside the control of the Alberta government.” Well, may I say in a totally nonpartisan way: we’ve all discovered that. We’ve all discovered that all kinds of things outside of the control of any or all of us in this House have had a massive impact on the budget, on the economy, and on the way things look going forward.

The way things look going forward is a bit dark, a bit cloudy, a bit scary, a bit bleak, and understanding that I’m talking now a little more than a month in advance of the beginning of debate on the budget for fiscal ’09-10, which may present – we don’t know yet because we haven’t seen the budget – a very different picture than what we’ve been used to, we are here debating a hundred and some- odd million dollars in requested supplementary supply money in a context that says that nothing is being reined in yet.

So I guess my first question to the President of the Treasury Board would simply be: what is this government’s plan to curb spending increases? Now, I’m not asking the President of the Treasury Board to steal the finance minister’s thunder or spill the beans in advance of the finance minister’s budget or anything like that. I understand the requirement to wait for April 7, to stay tuned, as is often said, for the details.

But in broad, general te rms I think this is an appropriate time in this Assembly for the question to be asked about what the government has in the way of a plan, if any, to curb spending increases. I think this is an appropriate time to ask whether we will be going through this exercise again twice next year. I think this is an appropriate time to find out whether the government is even prepared to acknowledge that it perhaps needs to change its ways and learn to come down with a budget at the beginning of the year that it is going to stick to.

If this were the budget that any one of us in this House were drawing up for our own family, Mr.

Chairman, outside of the possibility that sometime during the fiscal or calendar year of our family’s existence somebody in the family might get a little bit of an increase in their pay, though I doubt that’s going to happen in very many cases, in very many families in Alberta over the course of the next 12 months, we would have to create a budget that did the best job we could of projecting what our costs and our expenses were going to be over the next 12 months as against what our income was going to be over the next 12 months, and we would have to stick to that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Chair: The hon.

President of the Treasury Board. Mr. Snelgrove: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess, to follow the logic, if you don’t want to come back here and monitor the expendi- tures you’ve set out for departments, you just give them more than they need. You just write cheques until they absolutely don’t have to come and see you. We’ll say: see you next year. We could get our spending up to $50 billion, but we won’t have to come back here and hold departments to account for changing their spending. So there’s a method. You can say: let’s budget tight.

Let’s think in perfect circumstances that the ship sails along fine and we don’t have to come back. But in a situation like most governments are in and certainly most provinces are in, the chances are that the circumstances you set out with in the spring aren’t going to be exactly the same year-round, nor are the needs and the demands of the different departments, and the interrelationship between some of the departments certainly needs to be understood better. I have two kids in college myself, and I know that if I don’t have them coming back looking for money, I’ve given them too much money. It’s pretty simple.

How their mother and I keep track of them as best we can is to make su re that there is a definite need in the pocket of the college kid. I make no apologies for being a bit of a skinflint with that. The hon. member asked about what we are doing. Two years ago we set forth on value reviews, making departments work together, trying to understand things they may do that may have costs in other departments or things that they could do better to actually deliver what we’re trying to do better to the people, doing it more efficiently by identifying overlaps and lapses.

This is a very good example of where the Premier allowed us to create the safe communities fund, which demanded that all relevant departments had to come back for money to the issue. Instead of just automatically increasing the baseline funding to all departments, who may have some kind of an influence on how we solve some of the crime and addictions and drug and gang issues we’ve got, we said, “Here’s the issue. Here’s the money.

Come to us with good ideas, and we’ll make sure that we’re getting value for our money as we address it,” as opposed to the old form of just raise the base and measure it at the end of the year. We’ve also put together in this government ministerial working groups, which are very effective at making sure that our policies and programs go forward in a very synced method, so that Energy and Environment and Aboriginal Relations and Treasury all understand where the energy programs and the environmental programs fit together. I can quite proudly say that this started two years ago.

So as we have to address the obvious change in our financial situation, we have benefited greatly from some of the work of our Premier and the ministers that have been involved. I make no apologies for having departments come back to account to this House for the dollars that have been either transferred from

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 231 department to department or have been required for special circum- stances that have arisen. I would think the hon. member would appreciate that the accounting systems, the accounting responsibili- ties in this province are second to none and that he should probably appreciate the fact that even down to the $740,000 that the Solicitor General got, he gets to come back and comment on it. I don’t get his point that we’ve done nothing.

It’s a political argument that, of course, he would do better, but it sounds like his better would be to write the cheque so big that no department would have to come back. The Chair: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Rural Develop- ment. Agriculture and Rural Development Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A very interesting and quite a theatrical opening we had here; however, we’re not in a theatre here today. An Hon. Member: Great. Mr. Groeneveld: Yeah, it would be nice. I’m certainly pleased to speak about this government’s ongoing commitment to Alberta’s agriculture and food industry. Mr.

Chairman, in 2008 this government res ponded to the challenges facing the livestock industry by creating the Alberta farm recovery plan. This plan saw the distribution of $165 million to all Alberta livestock producers to help them to cope with the disaster as a result of increased input costs. What is before you today relates to the original Alberta farm recovery plan, where producers already enrolled in the CAIS program were automatically registered and those that were not had until December 2007 to apply.

I’m pleased to share that a significant number of livestock producers were helped through the AFRP program 1, considerably more, in fact, than we expected, which is a good thing. 3:10 However, our cost estimates for the program were based on the number of producers who participate in the CAIS program and the information provided at that time. The number of new participants and the extent of revision requests to change livestock numbers after the announcement far exceeded our expectation.

Instead of getting the additional 1,000 new claims that we projected, we r eceived 3,600, and almost a third of the 16,500 total claims we received had to be revised due to producers ad justing their information, which resulted in cost increases under the plan. As a result, we require $70 million more to cover the benefits to those additional producers who are eligible. Originally we expected that this increase might be offset by a reduction in claims under the AgriStability program due to unprece- dented increases in commodity prices in 2008. However, the economic downturn resulted in a steep decline instead.

Moreover, we had one of the worst years in terms of crop losses due to hail storms. As a matter of fact, it was the worst year ever recorded at AFSC. As such, adequate funding is not available this year through AFSC. Mr. Chairman, agriculture is the backbone of our province, and it’s imperative that we support livestock producers through the challenging times. We are pleased that so many were able to benefit from the first AFRP program because it was a res ounding success, ensuring that they and their families were able to weather the storm of rising costs.

The hon. member across has left the room, but I apologize that we in ag, I guess, don’t have a crystal ball to look into to tell the future or, more importantly, a crystal ball to tell what the weather is going to be. I know he talked about a plan, and he always talks about a plan. Maybe that particular member could come up with a plan that would control the weather for the next five years. I would love to sit down with him and see where we could get to with this type of plan. However, we have no such luxury in this world. Under these circumstances, Mr.

Chairman, I am requesting you to favourably consider the request for the supplementary budget. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciated the comments, at least most of the comments, from the minister. We’re looking here at an additional $70 million for the farm recovery program. I think it’s really worth emphasizing that this is actually a supplement not to this year’s expenditures but to the ’07-08 benefit year.

So it’s kind of an unusual situation, where we have this amount of money that’s being requested for a program for a budget year that has actually been behind us for 10 or 11 months. I’m concerned, as I think probably an awful number of Albertans are concerned, that no matter how many years go by, no matter how many promises are made, that, well, with just one more year of support, one more round of support, the agriculture sector will not need subsidies anymore, will not need supports anymore.

I don’t think anybody takes issue with insurance sorts of pro- grams, like hail insurance or other programs like that, but we’re talking here about a lot of money. We talk every year about a lot of money for farmers. I don’t dispute that farmers play an important role. Obviously, they’re a vital part of our society, but I know that an awful lot of Albertans wonder: when is this flow of subsidies to the agriculture sector going to peter out; when is it going to come to an end? They flow to this sector in a way that they don’t flow to any other sector.

They don’t flow to the housing sector, even though housing is a n ecessity. They don’t flow to other sectors nearly as much. There is a broad social concern out there that somehow or another we need to figure this out. You know what? It’s a concern shared by an awful lot of farmers. Farmers I speak to often say that they don’t want to be taking this money; they wish the system didn’t work this way.

Maybe it’s a necessity of living in a world where many of our agricultural competitors subsidize their farmers – the Americans, the Europeans, the Japanese, and so on – so we just have to play that game, and maybe we’re caught in that dynamic. I do want to get on the record the ongoing concern of an awful lot of Albertans that payments of one kind or another to the agriculture sector are unending, and it would be nice to get to a point where they didn’t need to occur quite so much.

I am concerned by the nature of this particular $70 million request because under the Alberta farm recovery plan announced a year and a half ago almost, there was $165 million allocated, and that was expected to be enough. We then see that’s $165 million just for phase 1, and we see $70 million more coming on top of that. The minister tried to explain that, and he gave a sincere explanation, but it does raise questions about how the program is managed. We’re talking about an overrun in estimated budget of 40 per cent or perhaps more than 40 per cent.

That’s a pretty major overrun for a government program, and inevitably it asks questions about how the program is designed and managed and evaluated. A 40 per cent overrun on anything ought to raise very serious questions. So it would be good to hear from the minister some reassurance, some explanation, some commitment to holding the line because if

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009232 there’s a 40 per cent overrun in phase 2 of this program, it’s going to be a much bigger number. I don’t know if the minister would be prepared to address the question around what assurance he can give this Assembly that there won’t be a similar overrun on phase 2 of the Alberta farm recovery plan. Are there provisions in place? Are there safeguards that have been implemented since phase 1 so that phase 2 won’t go 40 per cent over budget? Does the minister want to respond now? I appreciate that. Thanks. The Chair: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Rural Develop- ment. Mr.

Groeneveld: Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the comments made by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview, and I certainly have no quarrel with what he said. Farming, I guess, is a gamble right from day one. I don’t have to explain that to you or anyone here. It doesn’t matter what portion of farming we get into. That’s the nature of the beast, and it’s a pretty hard one to tame. You did hit the nail on the head somewhat when you talked about the subsidies from other countries. If we could get the WTO issues settled, that I think would certainly help us.

The overrun, of course, as you correctly identified, comes from the ’07 program, and the weather played a big portion of that. We thought we probably had it covered quite easily, which we usually do, but the hail issue pretty much depleted our fund. Probably the bigger issue is the number of producers out there that we never knew were out there. I can honestly say that it concerns me very much because we had to take the numbers from the CAIS program, which we struggle with at the best of times. We knew that there would be more than that, but we didn’t know how many more than that.

Unfortunately for us, the Canadian Cattle Identification Agency knows how many cattle are out there, but because of the – what do you call it? – secrecy or whatever issues . . . 3:20 Mr. Rodney: Privacy. Mr. Groeneveld: Privacy issues. That’s the one. . . . they won’t share those numbers with us. Had they done that, we would have known. Hence the $70 million overrun. Probably more important yet are the AFRP numbers of this particular year, which are no secret: we put out $300 million. Three hundred million dollars it is. We put out $200 million more on the first.

We thought we were going to do $1 50 million and $150 million. There were more subscribers, particularly on the hog side, but we paid out $200 million on the first portion. All that’s left in that kitty is $100 million, which we are sending out in March at this time. So there’ll be no overruns this year. That’s the number. We prorated and divvied the money up accordingly. I can pretty much guarantee you that that particular program will not be back. Because of the nature of the beast of agriculture, something else may jump up and bite me. I don’t know. But that program w ill be done when we’re paid out.

The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you. I appreciate the comments and the response from the minister. One of the questions I think from comments I’ve read of the minister that has come to his mind – it has come to my mind – is a fundamental one about the balance between supply and demand. We in Alberta have a huge productive capacity, produce a huge supply of red meat. There are questions to be made when that sector needs this kind of support that maybe it’s just too big. Maybe it’s producing more than it can sell at a profit.

And then when it can’t sell it at a profit, it turns to us to pay the difference. I would be interested to hear if the minister or this government has any strategy for managing the productive capacity of the red meat industry, for limiting the productive capacity, for saying: “Okay. Enough cattle being pr oduced. You’re pr oducing yourselves to bankruptcy, and we’re tired of picking up the pieces.” Or not. Maybe the whole idea is just to stimulate this industry until there is even more cattle and even more hogs. I don’t know.

But is there a strategic way that this government foresees to bring the balance of supply and demand into closer alignment? The Chair: The hon. minister. Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate those questions because, you know, we wrestle with that problem all the time. The truth of the matter is – you made it easier for me because you reduced it to beef production – that we in Alberta supply over 60 per cent of the Canadian beef that is consumed or exported. Indeed, there’s no way we can eat our way out of this problem. Unfortunately, our neighbours to the south, they can do that. An Hon.

Member: I try. Mr. Groeneveld: Yeah, it appears that we do sometimes, too. The BSE crisis, you know, was a big reason for the big bulge in cattle numbers in the country b ecause there was no place to ship them out. So breeding stock that should have been culled and disposed of stayed and reproduced with the rest of it. It’s interesting to note that I think we’re down about 10 per cent in Canada, particularly in Alberta, this year already, which does help the situation. But what you were kind of referring to was, you know, should it be smaller?

I’m glad you didn’t say the words “supply management” for beef because I don’t ever want to go there with beef. It’s a big portion of Alberta’s export market and should be making money as an export market. As you know, supply management, we would have to go out and tell probably 60 per cent of our producers: either cut your herd by 60 per cent or 60 per cent of you will have to go out of business. We don’t want to go there, and I don’t think you were intending that that was the nature of the beast at all.

We’ve talked about it in the House here, and you people across have mentioned the Alberta livestock and meat strategy, which, hopefully, is going to start to address that problem. I’m trying to assist personally by going overseas and getting some market access. I’m proud to say that Minister Ritz probably has done that in Hong Kong, particularly because we in Alberta have been there twice. We knew that they were going to offer him that before he ever got there. The trick was pushing him there, to get him there and get that done. I dare say that if he would go to China and Japan, I think we could get the same.

Although it’s only incremental, it certainly would help the whole process. That’s where we’re trying to go. We’ve got to take charge of our own industry in the red meat industry. You’re absolutely right; we haven’t done that. When you start putting out ad hoc programs, eventually the entitlement sort of creeps in there and distorts the whole issue. I think probably I’m pleased that the Treasury Board has said: “Lookit. You have these X many dollars for AFRP 2, but that’s it. Come up with a long-term plan.” They said: don’t bother coming back here.

Now, we’re endeavoring to do that with the Alberta livestock and meat strategy. Hopefully, we’re going to see some gains within the next year. It

March 4, 2009 Alberta Hansard 233 will be incremental, but we have to get so that we’re self-sufficient in there. Hopefully, that answers some of your concerns. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, I appreciate the candid discussion with the minister. Of this $70 million that we’re being asked to approve here in supplementary expenditures, the level of detail provided is, frankly, pretty limited, as is normal in the reports we get. I’m looking at page 15 of the estimates. I’m just wondering about the $70 million.

It’s a remarkably round number, which always is curious to see something quite so exact for an expenditure, and I’m wondering if we can get any more detail on that $70 million. Is some of it for administration? Will it all flow through to farmers? I mean, how did we end up with exactly to the last penny $70 million in this vote? How does it break down? Can we get some detail? Thank you. The Chair: The hon. minister. Mr. Groeneveld: Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, there is a reasonably good answer for that.

It’s b ecause these programs, of course, we run through the business risk management suite of programs that are already there. We run them through those programs because if we just made ad hoc payments, we would be, you know, in danger of having countervail. We don’t want to run that risk. We don’t want that border shut off a hundred per cent. What we actually do is run it through the AFSC, you know, lending institute. In some cases, we can rob Peter to pay Paul. I guess it’s kind of a bad analogy, but we do that, and that’s what I said.

We had hoped to cover this off with some of the hail premiums and whatnot – and farmers are quite happy to see us work it that way – but we got that account cleaned out this year. There is a certain amount of administration, very, very little administration cost because we do run it through our own program at AFSC. So, you know, to sit there and say that there isn’t some administration cost – but the farmer virtually gets all the money. In the last program, AFRP 2, of the $300 million AFSC charged no administration costs. All of those dollars went to the farmer. 3:30 The Chair: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you. You know, I appreciate the exchange with the minister. I’m going to have to read that last response from him because I’m not sure I quite followed it all. I mean, in general I understood that the very, very large majority of this is going to flow through to farmers. It would be interesting to know a little bit of detail: how many and what the average payment is, that sort of thing. None of that detail is here, so it’s a little bit hard to hold government to account, to be honest with you.

I think I’ll wrap up my comments here by just reiterating some of the concerns from the Member for Calgary-Currie. We’re in an Assembly where it has become the habit of the government to come back, a couple of times anyways, to augment the budget. It’s not a great way to run the organization, despite the comments from the President of the Treasury Board earlier. Certainly, if there’s an unforeseen disaster – you know, I remember a few years ago there was a catastrophic fire season, and almost six years ago now, I think, there was the BSE crisis. Okay. In those circumstances we understand.

It’s hard to accept that all of this was some kind of an emergency – and I’m not just meaning the $70 million; I’m meaning the whole thing – that twice all of this was unforeseen. Is it, in fact, the product of a government that has become a bit complacent? I describe it sometimes as a latte a ttitude: you know, when there’s just too much money in somebody’s pockets and you stop paying attention to the quarters and the loonies, and you go into a coffee shop and you end up spending five bucks on a cup of coffee.

You don’t think about it because, you know, you’ve developed that latte attitude, when in fact it’s still the taxpayers’ money. There’s nothing wrong with $1.49 for a Tim Hortons coffee instead of five bucks for a fancy latte. I’m concerned that in general we have a government that out- spends all others. We have a leader of that government who has actually boasted in this Assembly about being the highest spending government in the country. When that tone is set from the top, it becomes very casual and relaxed. They just keep coming back: “Well, we blew through the budget; we’ll come back for more.

Oh, we blew through that extension; we’ll be back for another one.” I’m really hoping that if there’s one benefit at least to a tightening of the global economic scene, it’s an attitude from government that returns to a bit more pinching of the pennies. I’ve said in this Assembly a number of times that I was working in the public service in the 1980s when there was a real belt- tightening. It became a career move for a public servant to allow their budget to overrun more than 1 or 2 per cent, and it was not a favourable career move.

If you were charged with a program that cost $100 million and you were over by, you know, $3 million and had to come back, it was a pretty unpleasant scene. I think we need to return to some of that sort of discipline or else we’re going to spend our way into a real mess. Value for money is the issue here. People understand, I hope, that when we were taking the govern- ment to task 10 years ago for spending too little and we were saying that you’ve got to spend more, it was a matter of understanding that for a modern society governments do have a significant role to play, and you can spend too little.

You can spend too little on your health system, your education system, or your infrastructure. But you can also spend too much. We’re in a government that in 1986 spent the most in the country per person, in 1996 spent the least in the country per person, is now back up to spending the most. That’s no way – no way – to run an efficient system in the long term. I just wanted to get those kinds of comments on the record, Mr.

Chairman, because the habit that I’ve seen this government develop of repeated supplementary supplies raises serious flags for me as a taxpayer and as somebody who is trying to hold this budget to account. I do appreciate, once again, the comments from the minister. I hope we can tame some of these tigers. Maybe we can’t tame the weather, but we can tame some of the other issues, and I’m happy to try to help out. Thank you. The Chair: The hon. minister. Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Certainly, I under- stand that the hon. member was taking a broader stroke at the rest of the government, other than agriculture, in his last comments. I think, probably, that when you look at the total number we’re talking about today, agriculture is by far the largest part of the request. I think the hon. member across actually voted with us last year. We are now putting in a cattle in surance program that will take out some of this risk.

The cattle producers, all of them that are involved – but it’s going to be incremental, whether it’s going to be feeders or cow-calf operators – will be able to participate in livestock insurance in which they will have to pay a premium as

Alberta Hansard March 4, 2009234 well. I think they are going to welcome that, and that’s going to help our big swings. As the hon. member says, we can’t control the weather and whatnot. We’re going to try this. I think that the important part to note in the estimates here today is that agriculture is the largest part of that. So I think that as a government we’re doing very well getting the whole issue under control. The Chair: Who of you wishes to speak on agriculture? The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona on Agriculture and Rural Development. Ms Notley: Thank you.

I appreciate the opportunity to join the debate on the supplementary estimates and, at this point in particu- lar, with respect to the requested addition of $70 million to the department of agriculture’s budget. There are a number of points that have been covered to some extent with respect to this additional $70 million. I’m afraid that to some extent I may be asking one or two of the questions again, but I think we could actually use a little bit more clarity of explanation with what occurred with respect to the Alberta farm recovery plan 1 in the 2007-08 year.

Before we get to that, though, I would just like to talk a little bit more globally, as has already happened, with respect to the issue of the beef market in the world and the role that our beef industry plays in it and how we can play a role in terms of enhancing the profitabil- ity opportunities of many of our producers in Alberta. I certainly understand that there is a need for us to establish and develop a market and to diversify our market as much as possible so that there are greater opportunities for our producers outside of Alberta.

There’s a certain degree to which the efforts in that regard can be supported.

I also, however, think that one of the other factors and processes that seems to impact what our producers are actually getting for their beef is the structure of the industry in Alberta and the way in which many of the packing companies and packing plants are able to exercise more control than one might expect in the classic Conserva- tives’/Liberals’ view of the free market. 3:40 In particular, I refer to the fact, for instance, that just yesterday, I believe it was, one of the major packing plant companies, XL Foods, bought Tyson, so now we basically have XL and Cargill.

Those are the only two packers in Alberta that are buying the beef. Then, of course, Tyson and Cargill have many, many feedlots, so they’re able to play around with the amount of cattle that go to the auction mart on any given day in order to impact the price that the small producer is getting when they get to the auction mart. This in effect creates a very unhealthy monopoly which greatly benefits one player in the industry and greatly compromises the success of the other player in the industry.

I believe that the other player is actually a player that, you know, this government historically has aligned its interests with